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[Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions



Mike,
I thought just occurred to me about third spaces and the saccades you talk about in your article, “Minding the Gap: Imagination, Creativity and Human Cognition.” Suppose those saccades are looking for signs of rhythmicity at a basic cognitive level like Hutto is talking about. This is followed at a slower pace by scaffolded cognition, which is what we are conscious of, at the level where we can talk our way towards dehumanizing the dialog. Music and dance would be more effective for working socially at a more basic level. Just wondering.
Henry

> On Jan 17, 2015, at 2:49 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> 
> I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about what I
> was conceiving
> in my own way as a form of thirdness that I think links to what is being
> said here. Straighten me
> out if I am wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its
> interesting!).
> 
> We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of my wife
> and a life long friend
> of our family. She has been in ill health for sometime and looks a good
> deal older than her years.
> Balance is an issue for her.
> 
> When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that she was
> carrying a large staff.
> I laughted, and my first words  were "You look just like Gandalf! and gave
> her a big hug."
> 
> Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a cane, she
> lost the invisibility created by
> old age and she became a perons to others. People constantly started up
> conversations with her and, being a skilled
> conversationalist interested in people, it made her feel like a whole
> person.
> 
> Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) a tool?
> Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as well.
> 
> mike
> 
> mike
> 
> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Miguel, Rod,
>> 
>> I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other thread
>> exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see these topics as
>> overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that contrast with "twoness"
>> [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower and learner,
>> etc.]
>> Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby watcher's I
>> was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream in
>> intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges language in his
>> notion of thirdness. There is also the work of Stolorow Atwood, and Donna
>> Orange, [intersubjective psychodynamics] who do not imagine
>> "intersubjectivity" as a developmental achievement as bothDaniel Stern and
>> Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness.
>> In Jessica's words:
>> "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as growing
>> naturally out of the experience of being recognized by the other, as a
>> crucial component of attachment responses that require mutual regulation
>> and attunement, and therefore, as ultimately a pleasure and not a chore"
>> 
>> Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and other
>> cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity.  My bias is to
>> suggest when these various modes [seeing and rhythmicity] are felt to be in
>> sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there are
>> inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to understanding we
>> may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our primary
>> mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt experience.
>> Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle for
>> recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" Her project
>> is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model for
>> expressing this struggle for recognition.
>> She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for
>> recognition is through a developmental trajectory of intersubjective
>> development of thirdness.
>> 
>> Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging sight
>> [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" the other as
>> "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as this analytic kernel is
>> one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are alternative
>> subject-subject relations that are not mediated by objects? This may be
>> another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" [with the mind's eye?].
>> 
>> Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a father, and
>> this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures to another dimension,
>> another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances.  I would
>> like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can offer
>> validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing the other
>> [rhythmically] into voice.  I would emphasize your notion of "intersecting"
>> multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" [across verses]
>> truths as multiple and plural and "palpable"
>> 
>> Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of learning
>> [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y ways of
>> thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of concept-y ways of
>> seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the children were able to join in
>> WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able to explain
>> what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or "context"
>> in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and
>> historically situated.
>> What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, Trevarten,
>> Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are indicating is the centrality
>> of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also profoundly
>> implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. Worlds of
>> experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this does have a
>> phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, and a cultural
>> historical quality.  Worlds are also deeply concept-y and institutionalized
>> and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we ethically and
>> morally respond to these palpable conditions?
>> 
>> "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new
>> understandings to guide us symbolically AND  rhythmically co-creatively
>> inventing AND discovering [both/and]  "third spaces" AS potentially
>> liberating contexts.
>> 
>> Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two basic
>> "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is to underline
>> this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in understanding the notion of
>> "recognition".
>> As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and done to
>> or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" within
>> thirdness.
>> THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object
> that creates history. Ernst Boesch.