Re: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"

Yes, it is mind-boggling. Probably better for people to
produce a multiplicity of different perspectives, than try
to produce a master view. There are so many angles!

Lewin is interesting. Not only was he close to the Frankfurt
School, but he also worked with Vygotsky, and I suspect this
is where Vygotsky got a lot of his Hegel from.

Andy

Martin Packer wrote:
> Andy, I think the map is interesting and useful. But how about this. I
> was exploring further on the virtual library that I mentioned in a prior
> message. It turns out there's quite a lot there in English, not only
> German. I had been enjoying myself browsing through scans of the papers
> of Carl Stumpf, who was teacher of both Kurt Lewin and Edmund Husserl.
> Teacher-student seems to me one important connection between figures.
> Lewin apparently had regular contact with the Frankfurt School
> (connection of 'colleague') before leaving for the US, where he would
> have found himself transplanted into the new milieu of behaviorism.
>
> I think Mike is right, we need 3D!
>
> Martin
>
> On Nov 8, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>
>> I've been thinking ... What these diagrams lack is any information
>> about why a writer is included and what they contributed to CHAT.
>> Would anyone on the list like to put their hand up to write a
>> paragraph (max 100 words probably) on a writer on the diagram
>> explaining their contribution to CHAT and their sources? I would be
>> happy to collate them and fix the essays to hyperlinks on the names of
>> each writer? ... if others do most of the writing ... then the diagram
>> might be genuinely useful.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> Andy Blunden wrote:
>>> Mmmmm. I didn't sign up for an intellecual map of the universe here!
>>> The French Revolution produced a mass of political theory of course,
>>> but also, it is widely regarded as the inspiration for Classical
>>> German Philosophy, which is one of our sources.
>>> World War One? I don't know, but I have thought in the past that
>>> what Vygotsky called "The Crisis in Psychology", viz., the myriad of
>>> conflicting currents in psychology suddenly contesting each other
>>> after WW1, was some kind of reaction to WW1 and the Russian Revolution.
>>> The Reformation and the Industrial Revolution deserve mention
>>> somewhere too, in the atlas of ideas. ...
>>> Andy
>>> mike cole wrote:
>>>> Hmmmmm, like the French revolution or world war I for example?
>>>> :-)
>>>> mike
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Both Arne's and mine are listed on
>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/index.html and both are in that
>>>> directory. I too would be interested in seeing some other versions.
>>>> Something might emerge out of the crowd.
>>>>
>>>> It is interesting isn't that it is a quite small number of ... what
>>>> do you say? ... millieux? events? movements? which produced the main
>>>> ideas, via a whole mass of individual writers.
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>>
>>>> mike cole wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I think your pictured genealogy is interesting, Andy. I thought
>>>> Arne's was too, and I a sure others can make interesting
>>>> modifications. If anyone could do this in three D it could get
>>>> really fascinating.
>>>>
>>>> Part of what makes for the partiality of any such attempt is the
>>>> position of the creator. Arne was a radical cultural historical
>>>> cognitive scientist of the
>>>> 70's-90's (roughly), an importatant odd hybrid and unusually
>>>> nice guy.
>>>> Maturana, who is on his list, with Varela, were central figures
>>>> on bringing
>>>> dynamic systems into the discussion but you do not know about
>>>> him just
>>>> as many of us do not know some of the figures you name, and the
>>>> connections such as Dilthey-Wundt or Mead-Dilthey-American
>>>> pragmatism are poorly known altogether, but fascinating (to me!)
>>>> in their implications.
>>>>
>>>> And, of course, the historical events that various of us might
>>>> highlight as
>>>> most relevant are going to vary as well.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the new tool to think with. I'll try to get Arne's
>>>> genealogy put
>>>> up where yours is and perhaps others will contribute from their
>>>> perspectives.
>>>> mike
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 6:42 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Well, here's my shot at it:
>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.pdf
>>>> I have tried to deal with your very valid point, Martin, that
>>>> it is
>>>> more the milieux than individuals, but I have also just
>>>> omitted a
>>>> billion possible arrows so it is readable. It needs more
>>>> than one
>>>> person to do this.
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>> Martin Packer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> My question about the map is what the links represent.
>>>> After
>>>> all, one scientist or philosopher may accept the ideas or
>>>> another, or react against them, or modify them, or
>>>> misunderstand
>>>> them. Seems to me each of these is a different link.
>>>> Also, a
>>>> family tree indicates two parents for every progeny,
>>>> where
>>>> Arne's genealogy seemingly shows spontaneous
>>>> generation - one
>>>> figure alone can produce another. And wouldn't we want to
>>>> have a
>>>> way to map the milieus within which people were working?
>>>> Perhaps
>>>> something along the lines of the social fields that
>>>> Bourdieu was
>>>> fond of sketching, but with an added historical
>>>> dimension.
>>>>
>>>> Martin
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 4, 2009, at 1:44 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>>
>>>> To tell the truth Louise, there are a couple of
>>>> names I
>>>> don't know and half a dozen I know so little about I
>>>> don't
>>>> know why they're included ... or not. Two of the
>>>> three
>>>> "outcomes" are people who think humans are a type of
>>>> computer, so I am not surpised that this genealogy is
>>>> odd to
>>>> me. But there is sooooo much out there. So much to
>>>> read. :(
>>>>
>>>> Up till a few weeks ago I thought that starting with
>>>> Descartes was not justified, but I take that back
>>>> now. But
>>>> somehow, Rene's nemesis, Aristotle, needs to be
>>>> included as
>>>> well.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know anything about Vico, but I find Locke,
>>>> Berkeley
>>>> and Leibniz to be rather peripheral to *our* story.
>>>>
>>>> Kant certainly deserves an important place, but I
>>>> think his
>>>> nemesis, Goethe, may be more important for us.
>>>>
>>>> Fichte is actually the inventor of Activity as a
>>>> philosophical concept (I just learnt that Hegel asked
>>>> to be
>>>> buried next to Fichte; like Goethe, very under
>>>> recognized in
>>>> the Anglophone world).
>>>>
>>>> Hegel is the inventor of Cultural Psychology, so
>>>> agreed there.
>>>>
>>>> I think Stirner and Mach are total diversions from
>>>> our
>>>> tradition. But maybe someone can explain to me their
>>>> role.
>>>>
>>>> Wundt and Dilthey are important, though I don't know
>>>> them well.
>>>>
>>>> Feuerbach is a bit of a footnote, but if you're
>>>> going to
>>>> have Feuerbach, you've gotta have Moses Hess,
>>>> author of
>>>> "Philosophy of the Deed", and inspiration for
>>>> "Theses on
>>>> Feuerbach". Of course if you think Frege, Russell and
>>>> Turing
>>>> are important to the genealogy of CHAT, then you
>>>> wouldn't
>>>> want Hess.
>>>>
>>>> MARX, obviously, in CAPS.
>>>>
>>>> And I would have lines from a whole bunch of people
>>>> going to
>>>> Dewey, as well as Peirce and Mead, but even though
>>>> Peirce
>>>> was the elder, I don't think you can give him such
>>>> priority.
>>>> Dewey surely was the leader. Arguable.
>>>>
>>>> And where are the Gestaltists? Again, not for
>>>> computer
>>>> cognition, but there needs to be lines between
>>>> Goethe and
>>>> Kant and then to von Ehrenfels, and on to Koehler
>>>> and Co.
>>>>
>>>> Russian linguists like Potebnya, but I don't know
>>>> where they
>>>> came from.
>>>>
>>>> And these threads are all tied together with LS
>>>> Vygotsky, yes?
>>>>
>>>> Freud has to be mentioned (I forget his sources),
>>>> with
>>>> arrows to Luria. And after Vygotsky and Luria you
>>>> have ANL
>>>> and thus to present day people,
>>>>
>>>> I guess, you can't leave out Piaget, and I don't know
>>>> Piaget's sources.
>>>>
>>>> I know some people rate Merleau-Ponty, but if you're
>>>> going
>>>> to give Merleau-Pony a seat, you have to put in
>>>> Lukacs and
>>>> Horkheimer. I guess Habermas for discourse ethics,
>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>> I have no idea why Husserl and Heidegger get a
>>>> mention. I my
>>>> humble opinion, as clever as they might be, their
>>>> impact on
>>>> Activity Theory has only been negative.
>>>>
>>>> I have no idea why Bergson is mentioned: was he a
>>>> source for
>>>> Piaget? Don't know why Nietzsche is there.
>>>> Interesting guy,
>>>> but so are many others. Why von Uexhill?
>>>>
>>>> I agree that Wittgenstein rates a mention, though
>>>> I don't
>>>> know how much of a source he has been for us. He
>>>> is some
>>>> kind of version of Activity Theory.
>>>>
>>>> Frege, Russell and Turing are nothing to do with
>>>> CHAT. What
>>>> about anthropologists??
>>>>
>>>> Never heard of Maturana.
>>>>
>>>> That's my reaction,
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>>
>>>> Louise Hawkins wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Andy,
>>>> I remember seeing this diagram a number of
>>>> years ago,
>>>> and I found it useful as a big picture diagram to
>>>> get my
>>>> head around the significant theorist.
>>>> Regards
>>>> Louise Hawkins
>>>> Lecturer - School of Management & Information
>>>> Systems
>>>> Faculty Business & Informatics
>>>> Building 19/Room 3.38
>>>> Rockhampton Campus
>>>> CQUniversity
>>>> Ph: +617 4923 2768
>>>> Fax: +617 4930 9729
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Andy Blunden [mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>] Sent: Wednesday, 4 November
>>>> 2009 01:05 PM
>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>> Subject: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"
>>>>
>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/Theoretical%20connections.jpg
>>>> I never found this map very useful to be honest.
>>>> Andy
>>>> mike cole wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Have you found Arne Raeithel's "genealogy" of
>>>> cultural-historical, activity theory thinkers
>>>> from
>>>> several years back. I am sure it is
>>>> somewhere at
>>>> lchc.ucsd.edu <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
>>>> <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
>>>> <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>. Perhaps you (and
>>>> Andy,
>>>> and.....) could update it with
>>>> more detail. Hegel generated so much that has
>>>> been
>>>> "laundered" by subsequent "original"
>>>> thinkers its
>>>> totally amazing, and ditto Mead (whose
>>>> writings i
>>>> know far better, although very inadequately).
>>>>
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>>>> --
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev,
>>>> Meshcheryakov,
>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>>>>
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>>>> --
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> --
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, Ilyenkov
>> $20 ea
>>
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-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, 
Ilyenkov $20 ea
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