Re: [xmca] Emotions and methodology

I'm really not sure where everyone is coming from here! :)
Mike, are you referring to the indented paragraph:

Both mind and body are for us objective, but whereas mental
objects [geistigen Objekte] are by their nature related to
the knowing subject, the body exists only as an object for
us. The relation between subject and object is an
epistemological problem [Erkenntnisproblem], the relation
between mind and matter is an ontological problem
[Daseinsproblem].

on p. 323 of the English edition? It is not attributed in
the English edition, but my assumption is that he is
continuing to quote Engels here. I have tried to find it in
  MECW but failed so far.

Is this what is at issue?

Andy

mike cole wrote:
> Attached is the paper martin refers to. But where is the equivalent to the
> indented passage from the Soviet Psych translation and p. 310 vol 3 of
> collected works (in English?). I may have vol 3 in Russian at work and can
> check, but it appears to me, as indicated elsewhere in the discussion, that
> this methodological/ontological chit chat comes from recent British writing,
> the relationship of which to LSV's writing in cited passages is not clear to
> me.
> mike
>
> On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 6:35 AM, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:
>
>> Mabel,
>>
>> Yes, this is where LSV insists on the importance of not confusing
>> epistemological issues with ontological ones. It's one of the more puzzling
>> passages in Crisis, and I suspect there are some problems with the
>> translation. (Is the indented passage a quotation from Hoffding? Does anyone
>> have that text?) Nothing here about methodological dualism, however. I don't
>> think this passage is the place to start to understand better the
>> distinction between epistemology and ontology, if that is what you want to
>> do.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> You might consider taking a look here (if so tell me whether or not it
>> helps):
>>
>> Packer, M. J., & Goicoechea, J. (2000). Sociocultural and constructivist
>> theories of learning: Ontology, not just epistemology. Educational
>> Psychologist, 35(4), 227-241.
>>
>>
>> On Nov 14, 2009, at 11:45 PM, Mabel Encinas wrote:
>>
>>> Martin,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here it is (Andy sent it to me, I have it in hardcopy Vol 3 of Vygotsky's
>> Collected Works, p. 310):
>> http://marx.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri13.htm#p1367
>>>
>>> Mabel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Emotions and methodology
>>>> From: packer@duq.edu
>>>> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:42:06 -0500
>>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>
>>>> Mabel,
>>>>
>>>> I confess I don't recognize the term methodological dualism. Where are
>> you finding this?
>>>> Martin
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 14, 2009, at 5:45 PM, Mabel Encinas wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My question to Andy was if he could please give me some references
>> about the difference-relation between ontological and methodological
>> dualism? I was aimed to get some contemporary references to this discussion.
>> I already had read Vygotsky. Does anyone has a suggestion, please?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Mabel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:56:07 -0800
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Hello Other Brain, how are you?
>>>>>> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
>>>>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There was a discussion of this topic around your MCA article a while
>> back,
>>>>>> Michael. Mabel might be able to use some of the specific techniques,
>> which,
>>>>>> I recall, were not too demading in terms of technology, to find a
>> bridge to
>>>>>> what her advisors expect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Martin's sources are right on. But Mabel is going to have to negotiate
>> the
>>>>>> rocky
>>>>>> shoals of her own institutional situation, and invoking XMCA is not
>> likely
>>>>>> to win her a lot of friends!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth <mroth@uvic.ca>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>> In the following piece, we show how emotion (as evidenced in prosody)
>> is a
>>>>>>> resource for the coordination of social action. Michael
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cult Stud of Sci Educ
>>>>>>> DOI 10.1007/s11422-009-9203-8
>>>>>>> Solidarity and conflict: aligned and misaligned prosody
>>>>>>> as a transactional resource in intra- and intercultural
>>>>>>> communication involving power differences
>>>>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth Æ Kenneth Tobin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2009-11-14, at 6:55 AM, Martin Packer wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm going to ignore Andy's request to ignore his message to Mabel,
>> because
>>>>>>> I'm sure Mabel is not the only person being told this sort of thing.
>> The
>>>>>>> claim, I suppose, is that emotion is a subjective experience, and
>> therefore
>>>>>>> something mental, internal, personal, private and so inaccessible to
>> other
>>>>>>> people, including the researcher, who has access only to the external
>>>>>>> 'expression' of that emotion, on the face, in movements, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nonsense. How to argue against that view? Take a look at Joe de
>> Rivera's
>>>>>>> work on emotions as interpersonal movements, towards or away from
>> people on
>>>>>>> three interpersonal dimensions of intimacy, openness, and status.
>> Read Hall
>>>>>>> and Cobey (1976) on emotion as transformation of the world. Read
>> Mead's
>>>>>>> Mind, Self and Society where he challenges Darwin, insisting that "we
>>>>>>> cannot approach them [emotions] from the point of view of expressing
>> a
>>>>>>> content in the mind of the individual" (p. 17) because to do so
>> presumes a
>>>>>>> dualism between consciousness and the biological organism.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> These are some resources that come immediately to my mind. What can
>> others
>>>>>>> out there recommend?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Martin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Nov 14, 2009, at 4:42 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You have good muses Mabel (Vygotsky and Marx), pity you
>>>>>>>> don't have better supervisors. Your approach, studying
>>>>>>>> microsituations as social, is Vygotsky's approach too, I
>>>>>>>> think, and excellent one, that is often, I fear, not well
>>>>>>>> understood. I am probably the last person to ask about that
>>>>>>>> kind of problem as I have a devil of a problem making myself
>>>>>>>> understood. Others will know the answers to your questions
>>>>>>>> better than me, too. But I will mention a few suggestions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mabel Encinas wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My supervisors are questioning now, that I do not study emotions,
>> but
>>>>>>>>> "the expression of emotions". I know how to solidify my argument in
>> this
>>>>>>>>> bit, but could you please give me some references of where should I
>> read
>>>>>>>>> about the difference-relation between ontological and
>> methodological
>>>>>>>>> dualism?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I guess you have already read Vygotsky's comments on
>>>>>>>> ontological vs methodological/epistemological dualism:
>>>>>>>> http://marx.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri13.htm#p1367
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you use Google on this one, you will probably find a page
>>>>>>>> where I am being attacked by someone called Neville for
>>>>>>>> failing to make this distinction. I am far from sure of the
>>>>>>>> value of that exchange but you are welcome to read it. I
>>>>>>>> would not attempt a short summary of this issue.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am not sure what you are being accused of about emotions.
>>>>>>>> Martha Nussbaum is a Critical Theorist who writes good stuff
>>>>>>>> about emotions. And of course everyone reads Antonio
>>>>>>>> Damassio, with his distinction between feelings and
>>>>>>>> emotions. Certainly, emotions are only present in
>>>>>>>> consciousness thanks to their "interpretation" by culturally
>>>>>>>> acquired concepts.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ""the expression of emotions" is a strange expression to me.
>>>>>>>> Are they using "emotions" to refer to forms of consciousness
>>>>>>>> which are "expressed" in high blood pressure, etc? Or are
>>>>>>>> they using "emotions" to refer to physiological conditions,
>>>>>>>> which are "expressed" in the character of behavior. I don't
>>>>>>>> understand. I am sure others will know. Sounds like a
>>>>>>>> template accusation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>>>
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-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, 
Ilyenkov $20 ea
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