Thanks again Andy,
What is happening in the planning theory field is that planning theory
based on Habermas's Discourse Ethics ('Critical Planning Theory') has
been heavily challenged for a good while now. There seems to be also
some miscommunication on what the nature/scope/aim of CPT theory is,
and whether it actually is a theory of planning at all, or rather a
philosophy of planning communication.
There seems to be a need for a planning theory, which could provide
descriptive and prescriptive accounts of actual planning practices.
Theoretical resources are being sought elsewhere (Foucault, Deleuze,
STS, CHAT...). This is an ongoing project of which I am part of too.
My question, however, was more on how do people read Habermas'
influence on today's Activity Theorists.
Jonna
2009/11/9 Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>:
> I think there are a number of people on the list, Jonna, who are familiar
> with Habermas.
>
> Habermas is the youngest of the 2nd generation of the Frankfurt School,
> elder stateman for the current generation. As per Frankfurt School
> traditions, Habermas did a lot of "immanent critique". This meant that, like
> Vygotsky in the 1920s, he trawls around the competing theories of the time,
> mining them for insights (well that's putting it very crudely, ok?). Among
> famous appropriations was his appropriation of Piaget, which I personally
> think was idiotic, leading to H's embrace of the biogenetic hypothesis and a
> rigid schema of historical development following a Piaget-type program.
>
> Among H's many great contributions though was his Discourse Ethics, and all
> CHAT people should study this. His concept of the public sphere is also
> something we should all learn.
>
> The significance of Discourse Ethics is that he replaces conceptions of
> objective truth knowable by rational thought, with a dialogic conception of
> truth, well actually of Right, not truth.
>
> He is very old now and his current trajectory is to come into complete
> agreement with John Rawls.
>
> The next generation of his followers are more interested in G H Mead rather
> than Piaget, which is of course a step forward in theory though backward in
> time. It is my cherished hope that the Franfurters will one day swallow
> their pride and read Vygtosky. There are millions of young Marxists out
> there waiting to be unleashed on Vygotsky if the Frankfurters were to
> suggest it.
>
> As to H. being an Activity Theorist, no, but I included him in my diagram
> because I think his Discourse Ethics set the Fransfurt School on to a course
> which leads to CHAT. The fact that many of them are still Marxists gives
> added reason for hope.
>
> My main beef, as I have said earlier, is that Habermas sees no role for the
> concept of mediation, seeing culture as a kind of resource which can be
> drawn upon. Here is an article on the question of why followers of Habermas
> should read Vygotsky:
>
> http://home.mira.net/~andy/works/critical-theory-and-psychology.htm
>
> and a review of Habermas's most recent book:
>
> http://home.mira.net/~andy/works/habermas-review.htm
>
>
> Hope that helps.
> Andy
>
>
>
> Jonna Kangasoja wrote:
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I would be especially interested if someone could say something
>> (anything) about the influence/role of Habermas in the picture. I am
>> working nowadyas with (urban) planning theorists, to whom Habermas is
>> a very central, although contested figure. Most of my colleagues have
>> never heard of Activity Theory, and the one's who have, regard present
>> day Activity Theorists as 'Habermasian' - I am not sure if this is
>> quite the way to put it, or at least I never thought Habermas to be
>> very central in e.g. Engestöm's theory - does anyone have any comments
>> on this?
>>
>> best, Jonna
>>
>>
>>
>> 2009/11/9 Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>:
>>>
>>> I've been thinking ... What these diagrams lack is any information about
>>> why
>>> a writer is included and what they contributed to CHAT. Would anyone on
>>> the
>>> list like to put their hand up to write a paragraph (max 100 words
>>> probably)
>>> on a writer on the diagram explaining their contribution to CHAT and
>>> their
>>> sources? I would be happy to collate them and fix the essays to
>>> hyperlinks
>>> on the names of each writer? ... if others do most of the writing ...
>>> then
>>> the diagram might be genuinely useful.
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>> Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Mmmmm. I didn't sign up for an intellecual map of the universe here! The
>>>> French Revolution produced a mass of political theory of course, but
>>>> also,
>>>> it is widely regarded as the inspiration for Classical German
>>>> Philosophy,
>>>> which is one of our sources.
>>>>
>>>> World War One? I don't know, but I have thought in the past that what
>>>> Vygotsky called "The Crisis in Psychology", viz., the myriad of
>>>> conflicting
>>>> currents in psychology suddenly contesting each other after WW1, was
>>>> some
>>>> kind of reaction to WW1 and the Russian Revolution.
>>>>
>>>> The Reformation and the Industrial Revolution deserve mention somewhere
>>>> too, in the atlas of ideas. ...
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>>
>>>> mike cole wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmmmmm, like the French revolution or world war I for example?
>>>>> :-)
>>>>> mike
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Both Arne's and mine are listed on
>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/index.html and both are in that
>>>>> directory. I too would be interested in seeing some other versions.
>>>>> Something might emerge out of the crowd.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is interesting isn't that it is a quite small number of ... what
>>>>> do you say? ... millieux? events? movements? which produced the main
>>>>> ideas, via a whole mass of individual writers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy
>>>>>
>>>>> mike cole wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I think your pictured genealogy is interesting, Andy. I thought
>>>>> Arne's was too, and I a sure others can make interesting
>>>>> modifications. If anyone could do this in three D it could get
>>>>> really fascinating.
>>>>>
>>>>> Part of what makes for the partiality of any such attempt is the
>>>>> position of the creator. Arne was a radical cultural historical
>>>>> cognitive scientist of the
>>>>> 70's-90's (roughly), an importatant odd hybrid and unusually
>>>>> nice guy.
>>>>> Maturana, who is on his list, with Varela, were central figures
>>>>> on bringing
>>>>> dynamic systems into the discussion but you do not know about
>>>>> him just
>>>>> as many of us do not know some of the figures you name, and the
>>>>> connections such as Dilthey-Wundt or Mead-Dilthey-American
>>>>> pragmatism are poorly known altogether, but fascinating (to me!)
>>>>> in their implications.
>>>>>
>>>>> And, of course, the historical events that various of us might
>>>>> highlight as
>>>>> most relevant are going to vary as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the new tool to think with. I'll try to get Arne's
>>>>> genealogy put
>>>>> up where yours is and perhaps others will contribute from their
>>>>> perspectives.
>>>>> mike
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 6:42 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, here's my shot at it:
>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.pdf
>>>>> I have tried to deal with your very valid point, Martin, that
>>>>> it is
>>>>> more the milieux than individuals, but I have also just
>>>>> omitted
>>>>> a
>>>>> billion possible arrows so it is readable. It needs more than
>>>>> one
>>>>> person to do this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy
>>>>> Martin Packer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> My question about the map is what the links represent.
>>>>> After
>>>>> all, one scientist or philosopher may accept the ideas or
>>>>> another, or react against them, or modify them, or
>>>>> misunderstand
>>>>> them. Seems to me each of these is a different link. Also,
>>>>> a
>>>>> family tree indicates two parents for every progeny, where
>>>>> Arne's genealogy seemingly shows spontaneous generation -
>>>>> one
>>>>> figure alone can produce another. And wouldn't we want to
>>>>> have a
>>>>> way to map the milieus within which people were working?
>>>>> Perhaps
>>>>> something along the lines of the social fields that
>>>>> Bourdieu was
>>>>> fond of sketching, but with an added historical dimension.
>>>>>
>>>>> Martin
>>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 4, 2009, at 1:44 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> To tell the truth Louise, there are a couple of names
>>>>> I
>>>>> don't know and half a dozen I know so little about I
>>>>> don't
>>>>> know why they're included ... or not. Two of the three
>>>>> "outcomes" are people who think humans are a type of
>>>>> computer, so I am not surpised that this genealogy is
>>>>> odd to
>>>>> me. But there is sooooo much out there. So much to
>>>>> read. :(
>>>>>
>>>>> Up till a few weeks ago I thought that starting with
>>>>> Descartes was not justified, but I take that back
>>>>> now. But
>>>>> somehow, Rene's nemesis, Aristotle, needs to be
>>>>> included as
>>>>> well.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know anything about Vico, but I find Locke,
>>>>> Berkeley
>>>>> and Leibniz to be rather peripheral to *our* story.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kant certainly deserves an important place, but I
>>>>> think his
>>>>> nemesis, Goethe, may be more important for us.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fichte is actually the inventor of Activity as a
>>>>> philosophical concept (I just learnt that Hegel asked
>>>>> to be
>>>>> buried next to Fichte; like Goethe, very under
>>>>> recognized in
>>>>> the Anglophone world).
>>>>>
>>>>> Hegel is the inventor of Cultural Psychology, so
>>>>> agreed there.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think Stirner and Mach are total diversions from our
>>>>> tradition. But maybe someone can explain to me their
>>>>> role.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wundt and Dilthey are important, though I don't know
>>>>> them well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Feuerbach is a bit of a footnote, but if you're going
>>>>> to
>>>>> have Feuerbach, you've gotta have Moses Hess, author
>>>>> of
>>>>> "Philosophy of the Deed", and inspiration for "Theses
>>>>> on
>>>>> Feuerbach". Of course if you think Frege, Russell and
>>>>> Turing
>>>>> are important to the genealogy of CHAT, then you
>>>>> wouldn't
>>>>> want Hess.
>>>>>
>>>>> MARX, obviously, in CAPS.
>>>>>
>>>>> And I would have lines from a whole bunch of people
>>>>> going to
>>>>> Dewey, as well as Peirce and Mead, but even though
>>>>> Peirce
>>>>> was the elder, I don't think you can give him such
>>>>> priority.
>>>>> Dewey surely was the leader. Arguable.
>>>>>
>>>>> And where are the Gestaltists? Again, not for computer
>>>>> cognition, but there needs to be lines between Goethe
>>>>> and
>>>>> Kant and then to von Ehrenfels, and on to Koehler and
>>>>> Co.
>>>>>
>>>>> Russian linguists like Potebnya, but I don't know
>>>>> where they
>>>>> came from.
>>>>>
>>>>> And these threads are all tied together with LS
>>>>> Vygotsky, yes?
>>>>>
>>>>> Freud has to be mentioned (I forget his sources), with
>>>>> arrows to Luria. And after Vygotsky and Luria you
>>>>> have ANL
>>>>> and thus to present day people,
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess, you can't leave out Piaget, and I don't know
>>>>> Piaget's sources.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know some people rate Merleau-Ponty, but if you're
>>>>> going
>>>>> to give Merleau-Pony a seat, you have to put in
>>>>> Lukacs and
>>>>> Horkheimer. I guess Habermas for discourse ethics,
>>>>> etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no idea why Husserl and Heidegger get a
>>>>> mention. I my
>>>>> humble opinion, as clever as they might be, their
>>>>> impact on
>>>>> Activity Theory has only been negative.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no idea why Bergson is mentioned: was he a
>>>>> source for
>>>>> Piaget? Don't know why Nietzsche is there.
>>>>> Interesting guy,
>>>>> but so are many others. Why von Uexhill?
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that Wittgenstein rates a mention, though I
>>>>> don't
>>>>> know how much of a source he has been for us. He is
>>>>> some
>>>>> kind of version of Activity Theory.
>>>>>
>>>>> Frege, Russell and Turing are nothing to do with
>>>>> CHAT. What
>>>>> about anthropologists??
>>>>>
>>>>> Never heard of Maturana.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's my reaction,
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy
>>>>>
>>>>> Louise Hawkins wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy,
>>>>> I remember seeing this diagram a number of years
>>>>> ago,
>>>>> and I found it useful as a big picture diagram to
>>>>> get my
>>>>> head around the significant theorist.
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Louise Hawkins
>>>>> Lecturer - School of Management & Information
>>>>> Systems
>>>>> Faculty Business & Informatics
>>>>> Building 19/Room 3.38
>>>>> Rockhampton Campus
>>>>> CQUniversity
>>>>> Ph: +617 4923 2768
>>>>> Fax: +617 4930 9729
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Andy Blunden [mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>] Sent: Wednesday, 4 November
>>>>> 2009 01:05 PM
>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>> Subject: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"
>>>>>
>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/Theoretical%20connections.jpg
>>>>> I never found this map very useful to be honest.
>>>>> Andy
>>>>> mike cole wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Have you found Arne Raeithel's "genealogy" of
>>>>> cultural-historical, activity theory thinkers
>>>>> from
>>>>> several years back. I am sure it is somewhere
>>>>> at
>>>>> lchc.ucsd.edu <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
>>>>> <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
>>>>> <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>. Perhaps you (and Andy,
>>>>> and.....) could update it with
>>>>> more detail. Hegel generated so much that has
>>>>> been
>>>>> "laundered" by subsequent "original" thinkers
>>>>> its
>>>>> totally amazing, and ditto Mead (whose
>>>>> writings
>>>>> i
>>>>> know far better, although very inadequately).
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev,
>>>>> Meshcheryakov,
>>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
>>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
>>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> --
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, Ilyenkov $20
>>> ea
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> xmca mailing list
>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>
>>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, Ilyenkov $20 ea
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
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