Re: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"

Andy, I think the map is interesting and useful. But how about this. I
was exploring further on the virtual library that I mentioned in a
prior message. It turns out there's quite a lot there in English, not
only German. I had been enjoying myself browsing through scans of the
papers of Carl Stumpf, who was teacher of both Kurt Lewin and Edmund
Husserl. Teacher-student seems to me one important connection between
figures. Lewin apparently had regular contact with the Frankfurt
School (connection of 'colleague') before leaving for the US, where he
would have found himself transplanted into the new milieu of
behaviorism.

I think Mike is right, we need 3D!

Martin

On Nov 8, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:

> I've been thinking ... What these diagrams lack is any information
> about why a writer is included and what they contributed to CHAT.
> Would anyone on the list like to put their hand up to write a
> paragraph (max 100 words probably) on a writer on the diagram
> explaining their contribution to CHAT and their sources? I would be
> happy to collate them and fix the essays to hyperlinks on the names
> of each writer? ... if others do most of the writing ... then the
> diagram might be genuinely useful.
>
> Andy
>
> Andy Blunden wrote:
>> Mmmmm. I didn't sign up for an intellecual map of the universe
>> here! The French Revolution produced a mass of political theory of
>> course, but also, it is widely regarded as the inspiration for
>> Classical German Philosophy, which is one of our sources.
>> World War One? I don't know, but I have thought in the past that
>> what Vygotsky called "The Crisis in Psychology", viz., the myriad
>> of conflicting currents in psychology suddenly contesting each
>> other after WW1, was some kind of reaction to WW1 and the Russian
>> Revolution.
>> The Reformation and the Industrial Revolution deserve mention
>> somewhere too, in the atlas of ideas. ...
>> Andy
>> mike cole wrote:
>>> Hmmmmm, like the French revolution or world war I for example?
>>> :-)
>>> mike
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>> >> wrote:
>>>
>>> Both Arne's and mine are listed on
>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/index.html and both are in that
>>> directory. I too would be interested in seeing some other
>>> versions.
>>> Something might emerge out of the crowd.
>>>
>>> It is interesting isn't that it is a quite small number of ...
>>> what
>>> do you say? ... millieux? events? movements? which produced the
>>> main
>>> ideas, via a whole mass of individual writers.
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>> mike cole wrote:
>>>
>>> I think your pictured genealogy is interesting, Andy. I
>>> thought
>>> Arne's was too, and I a sure others can make interesting
>>> modifications. If anyone could do this in three D it could
>>> get
>>> really fascinating.
>>>
>>> Part of what makes for the partiality of any such attempt
>>> is the
>>> position of the creator. Arne was a radical cultural
>>> historical
>>> cognitive scientist of the
>>> 70's-90's (roughly), an importatant odd hybrid and unusually
>>> nice guy.
>>> Maturana, who is on his list, with Varela, were central
>>> figures
>>> on bringing
>>> dynamic systems into the discussion but you do not know about
>>> him just
>>> as many of us do not know some of the figures you name, and
>>> the
>>> connections such as Dilthey-Wundt or Mead-Dilthey-American
>>> pragmatism are poorly known altogether, but fascinating (to
>>> me!)
>>> in their implications.
>>>
>>> And, of course, the historical events that various of us
>>> might
>>> highlight as
>>> most relevant are going to vary as well.
>>>
>>> Thanks for the new tool to think with. I'll try to get Arne's
>>> genealogy put
>>> up where yours is and perhaps others will contribute from
>>> their
>>> perspectives.
>>> mike
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 6:42 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Well, here's my shot at it:
>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.pdf
>>> I have tried to deal with your very valid point, Martin,
>>> that
>>> it is
>>> more the milieux than individuals, but I have also just
>>> omitted a
>>> billion possible arrows so it is readable. It needs more
>>> than one
>>> person to do this.
>>>
>>> Andy
>>> Martin Packer wrote:
>>>
>>> My question about the map is what the links
>>> represent. After
>>> all, one scientist or philosopher may accept the
>>> ideas or
>>> another, or react against them, or modify them, or
>>> misunderstand
>>> them. Seems to me each of these is a different link.
>>> Also, a
>>> family tree indicates two parents for every progeny,
>>> where
>>> Arne's genealogy seemingly shows spontaneous
>>> generation - one
>>> figure alone can produce another. And wouldn't we
>>> want to
>>> have a
>>> way to map the milieus within which people were
>>> working?
>>> Perhaps
>>> something along the lines of the social fields that
>>> Bourdieu was
>>> fond of sketching, but with an added historical
>>> dimension.
>>>
>>> Martin
>>>
>>> On Nov 4, 2009, at 1:44 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>
>>> To tell the truth Louise, there are a couple of
>>> names I
>>> don't know and half a dozen I know so little
>>> about I
>>> don't
>>> know why they're included ... or not. Two of the
>>> three
>>> "outcomes" are people who think humans are a
>>> type of
>>> computer, so I am not surpised that this
>>> genealogy is
>>> odd to
>>> me. But there is sooooo much out there. So much to
>>> read. :(
>>>
>>> Up till a few weeks ago I thought that starting
>>> with
>>> Descartes was not justified, but I take that back
>>> now. But
>>> somehow, Rene's nemesis, Aristotle, needs to be
>>> included as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> I don't know anything about Vico, but I find
>>> Locke,
>>> Berkeley
>>> and Leibniz to be rather peripheral to *our*
>>> story.
>>>
>>> Kant certainly deserves an important place, but I
>>> think his
>>> nemesis, Goethe, may be more important for us.
>>>
>>> Fichte is actually the inventor of Activity as a
>>> philosophical concept (I just learnt that Hegel
>>> asked
>>> to be
>>> buried next to Fichte; like Goethe, very under
>>> recognized in
>>> the Anglophone world).
>>>
>>> Hegel is the inventor of Cultural Psychology, so
>>> agreed there.
>>>
>>> I think Stirner and Mach are total diversions
>>> from our
>>> tradition. But maybe someone can explain to me
>>> their
>>> role.
>>>
>>> Wundt and Dilthey are important, though I don't
>>> know
>>> them well.
>>>
>>> Feuerbach is a bit of a footnote, but if you're
>>> going to
>>> have Feuerbach, you've gotta have Moses Hess,
>>> author of
>>> "Philosophy of the Deed", and inspiration for
>>> "Theses on
>>> Feuerbach". Of course if you think Frege,
>>> Russell and
>>> Turing
>>> are important to the genealogy of CHAT, then you
>>> wouldn't
>>> want Hess.
>>>
>>> MARX, obviously, in CAPS.
>>>
>>> And I would have lines from a whole bunch of
>>> people
>>> going to
>>> Dewey, as well as Peirce and Mead, but even
>>> though Peirce
>>> was the elder, I don't think you can give him such
>>> priority.
>>> Dewey surely was the leader. Arguable.
>>>
>>> And where are the Gestaltists? Again, not for
>>> computer
>>> cognition, but there needs to be lines between
>>> Goethe and
>>> Kant and then to von Ehrenfels, and on to
>>> Koehler and Co.
>>>
>>> Russian linguists like Potebnya, but I don't know
>>> where they
>>> came from.
>>>
>>> And these threads are all tied together with LS
>>> Vygotsky, yes?
>>>
>>> Freud has to be mentioned (I forget his
>>> sources), with
>>> arrows to Luria. And after Vygotsky and Luria you
>>> have ANL
>>> and thus to present day people,
>>>
>>> I guess, you can't leave out Piaget, and I don't
>>> know
>>> Piaget's sources.
>>>
>>> I know some people rate Merleau-Ponty, but if
>>> you're
>>> going
>>> to give Merleau-Pony a seat, you have to put in
>>> Lukacs and
>>> Horkheimer. I guess Habermas for discourse
>>> ethics, etc.
>>>
>>> I have no idea why Husserl and Heidegger get a
>>> mention. I my
>>> humble opinion, as clever as they might be, their
>>> impact on
>>> Activity Theory has only been negative.
>>>
>>> I have no idea why Bergson is mentioned: was he a
>>> source for
>>> Piaget? Don't know why Nietzsche is there.
>>> Interesting guy,
>>> but so are many others. Why von Uexhill?
>>>
>>> I agree that Wittgenstein rates a mention,
>>> though I don't
>>> know how much of a source he has been for us. He
>>> is some
>>> kind of version of Activity Theory.
>>>
>>> Frege, Russell and Turing are nothing to do with
>>> CHAT. What
>>> about anthropologists??
>>>
>>> Never heard of Maturana.
>>>
>>> That's my reaction,
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>> Louise Hawkins wrote:
>>>
>>> Andy,
>>> I remember seeing this diagram a number of
>>> years ago,
>>> and I found it useful as a big picture
>>> diagram to
>>> get my
>>> head around the significant theorist.
>>> Regards
>>> Louise Hawkins
>>> Lecturer - School of Management &
>>> Information Systems
>>> Faculty Business & Informatics
>>> Building 19/Room 3.38
>>> Rockhampton Campus
>>> CQUniversity
>>> Ph: +617 4923 2768
>>> Fax: +617 4930 9729
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Andy Blunden [mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>] Sent: Wednesday, 4 November
>>> 2009 01:05 PM
>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>> Subject: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"
>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/Theoretical%20connections.jpg
>>> I never found this map very useful to be
>>> honest.
>>> Andy
>>> mike cole wrote:
>>>
>>> Have you found Arne Raeithel's
>>> "genealogy" of
>>> cultural-historical, activity theory
>>> thinkers
>>> from
>>> several years back. I am sure it is
>>> somewhere at
>>> lchc.ucsd.edu <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
>>> <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
>>> <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>. Perhaps you (and
>>> Andy,
>>> and.....) could update it with
>>> more detail. Hegel generated so much
>>> that has
>>> been
>>> "laundered" by subsequent "original"
>>> thinkers its
>>> totally amazing, and ditto Mead (whose
>>> writings i
>>> know far better, although very
>>> inadequately).
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev,
>>> Meshcheryakov,
>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev,
>>> Meshcheryakov,
>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>>>
>>>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>
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Received on Sun Nov 8 21:04:11 2009