Re: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"

Hmmmmm, like the French revolution or world war I for example?
:-)
mike

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> Both Arne's and mine are listed on
> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/index.html and both are in that directory.
> I too would be interested in seeing some other versions. Something might
> emerge out of the crowd.
>
> It is interesting isn't that it is a quite small number of ... what do you
> say? ... millieux? events? movements? which produced the main ideas, via a
> whole mass of individual writers.
>
> Andy
>
> mike cole wrote:
>
>> I think your pictured genealogy is interesting, Andy. I thought Arne's was
>> too, and I a sure others can make interesting modifications. If anyone could
>> do this in three D it could get really fascinating.
>>
>> Part of what makes for the partiality of any such attempt is the position
>> of the creator. Arne was a radical cultural historical cognitive scientist
>> of the
>> 70's-90's (roughly), an importatant odd hybrid and unusually nice guy.
>> Maturana, who is on his list, with Varela, were central figures on
>> bringing
>> dynamic systems into the discussion but you do not know about him just
>> as many of us do not know some of the figures you name, and the
>> connections such as Dilthey-Wundt or Mead-Dilthey-American pragmatism are
>> poorly known altogether, but fascinating (to me!) in their implications.
>>
>> And, of course, the historical events that various of us might highlight
>> as
>> most relevant are going to vary as well.
>>
>> Thanks for the new tool to think with. I'll try to get Arne's genealogy
>> put
>> up where yours is and perhaps others will contribute from their
>> perspectives.
>> mike
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 6:42 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:
>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Well, here's my shot at it:
>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.pdf
>> I have tried to deal with your very valid point, Martin, that it is
>> more the milieux than individuals, but I have also just omitted a
>> billion possible arrows so it is readable. It needs more than one
>> person to do this.
>>
>> Andy
>> Martin Packer wrote:
>>
>> My question about the map is what the links represent. After
>> all, one scientist or philosopher may accept the ideas or
>> another, or react against them, or modify them, or misunderstand
>> them. Seems to me each of these is a different link. Also, a
>> family tree indicates two parents for every progeny, where
>> Arne's genealogy seemingly shows spontaneous generation - one
>> figure alone can produce another. And wouldn't we want to have a
>> way to map the milieus within which people were working? Perhaps
>> something along the lines of the social fields that Bourdieu was
>> fond of sketching, but with an added historical dimension.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> On Nov 4, 2009, at 1:44 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>
>> To tell the truth Louise, there are a couple of names I
>> don't know and half a dozen I know so little about I don't
>> know why they're included ... or not. Two of the three
>> "outcomes" are people who think humans are a type of
>> computer, so I am not surpised that this genealogy is odd to
>> me. But there is sooooo much out there. So much to read. :(
>>
>> Up till a few weeks ago I thought that starting with
>> Descartes was not justified, but I take that back now. But
>> somehow, Rene's nemesis, Aristotle, needs to be included as
>> well.
>>
>> I don't know anything about Vico, but I find Locke, Berkeley
>> and Leibniz to be rather peripheral to *our* story.
>>
>> Kant certainly deserves an important place, but I think his
>> nemesis, Goethe, may be more important for us.
>>
>> Fichte is actually the inventor of Activity as a
>> philosophical concept (I just learnt that Hegel asked to be
>> buried next to Fichte; like Goethe, very under recognized in
>> the Anglophone world).
>>
>> Hegel is the inventor of Cultural Psychology, so agreed there.
>>
>> I think Stirner and Mach are total diversions from our
>> tradition. But maybe someone can explain to me their role.
>>
>> Wundt and Dilthey are important, though I don't know them well.
>>
>> Feuerbach is a bit of a footnote, but if you're going to
>> have Feuerbach, you've gotta have Moses Hess, author of
>> "Philosophy of the Deed", and inspiration for "Theses on
>> Feuerbach". Of course if you think Frege, Russell and Turing
>> are important to the genealogy of CHAT, then you wouldn't
>> want Hess.
>>
>> MARX, obviously, in CAPS.
>>
>> And I would have lines from a whole bunch of people going to
>> Dewey, as well as Peirce and Mead, but even though Peirce
>> was the elder, I don't think you can give him such priority.
>> Dewey surely was the leader. Arguable.
>>
>> And where are the Gestaltists? Again, not for computer
>> cognition, but there needs to be lines between Goethe and
>> Kant and then to von Ehrenfels, and on to Koehler and Co.
>>
>> Russian linguists like Potebnya, but I don't know where they
>> came from.
>>
>> And these threads are all tied together with LS Vygotsky, yes?
>>
>> Freud has to be mentioned (I forget his sources), with
>> arrows to Luria. And after Vygotsky and Luria you have ANL
>> and thus to present day people,
>>
>> I guess, you can't leave out Piaget, and I don't know
>> Piaget's sources.
>>
>> I know some people rate Merleau-Ponty, but if you're going
>> to give Merleau-Pony a seat, you have to put in Lukacs and
>> Horkheimer. I guess Habermas for discourse ethics, etc.
>>
>> I have no idea why Husserl and Heidegger get a mention. I my
>> humble opinion, as clever as they might be, their impact on
>> Activity Theory has only been negative.
>>
>> I have no idea why Bergson is mentioned: was he a source for
>> Piaget? Don't know why Nietzsche is there. Interesting guy,
>> but so are many others. Why von Uexhill?
>>
>> I agree that Wittgenstein rates a mention, though I don't
>> know how much of a source he has been for us. He is some
>> kind of version of Activity Theory.
>>
>> Frege, Russell and Turing are nothing to do with CHAT. What
>> about anthropologists??
>>
>> Never heard of Maturana.
>>
>> That's my reaction,
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> Louise Hawkins wrote:
>>
>> Andy,
>> I remember seeing this diagram a number of years ago,
>> and I found it useful as a big picture diagram to get my
>> head around the significant theorist.
>> Regards
>> Louise Hawkins
>> Lecturer - School of Management & Information Systems
>> Faculty Business & Informatics
>> Building 19/Room 3.38
>> Rockhampton Campus
>> CQUniversity
>> Ph: +617 4923 2768
>> Fax: +617 4930 9729
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Andy Blunden [mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>] Sent: Wednesday, 4 November
>> 2009 01:05 PM
>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Subject: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"
>>
>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/Theoretical%20connections.jpg
>> I never found this map very useful to be honest.
>> Andy
>> mike cole wrote:
>>
>> Have you found Arne Raeithel's "genealogy" of
>> cultural-historical, activity theory thinkers from
>> several years back. I am sure it is somewhere at
>> lchc.ucsd.edu <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
>> <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>. Perhaps you (and Andy,
>> and.....) could update it with
>> more detail. Hegel generated so much that has been
>> "laundered" by subsequent "original" thinkers its
>> totally amazing, and ditto Mead (whose writings i
>> know far better, although very inadequately).
>>
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>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>>
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>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
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> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, Ilyenkov $20
> ea
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>
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Received on Sun Nov 8 16:21:00 2009