Re: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"

Both Arne's and mine are listed on
http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/index.html and both are in
that directory. I too would be interested in seeing some
other versions. Something might emerge out of the crowd.

It is interesting isn't that it is a quite small number of
... what do you say? ... millieux? events? movements? which
produced the main ideas, via a whole mass of individual
writers.

Andy

mike cole wrote:
> I think your pictured genealogy is interesting, Andy. I thought Arne's
> was too, and I a sure others can make interesting modifications. If
> anyone could do this in three D it could get really fascinating.
>
> Part of what makes for the partiality of any such attempt is the
> position of the creator. Arne was a radical cultural historical
> cognitive scientist of the
> 70's-90's (roughly), an importatant odd hybrid and unusually nice guy.
> Maturana, who is on his list, with Varela, were central figures on bringing
> dynamic systems into the discussion but you do not know about him just
> as many of us do not know some of the figures you name, and the
> connections such as Dilthey-Wundt or Mead-Dilthey-American pragmatism
> are poorly known altogether, but fascinating (to me!) in their implications.
>
> And, of course, the historical events that various of us might highlight as
> most relevant are going to vary as well.
>
> Thanks for the new tool to think with. I'll try to get Arne's genealogy put
> up where yours is and perhaps others will contribute from their
> perspectives.
> mike
>
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 6:42 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>
> Well, here's my shot at it:
> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.pdf
> I have tried to deal with your very valid point, Martin, that it is
> more the milieux than individuals, but I have also just omitted a
> billion possible arrows so it is readable. It needs more than one
> person to do this.
>
> Andy
> Martin Packer wrote:
>
> My question about the map is what the links represent. After
> all, one scientist or philosopher may accept the ideas or
> another, or react against them, or modify them, or misunderstand
> them. Seems to me each of these is a different link. Also, a
> family tree indicates two parents for every progeny, where
> Arne's genealogy seemingly shows spontaneous generation - one
> figure alone can produce another. And wouldn't we want to have a
> way to map the milieus within which people were working? Perhaps
> something along the lines of the social fields that Bourdieu was
> fond of sketching, but with an added historical dimension.
>
> Martin
>
> On Nov 4, 2009, at 1:44 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>
> To tell the truth Louise, there are a couple of names I
> don't know and half a dozen I know so little about I don't
> know why they're included ... or not. Two of the three
> "outcomes" are people who think humans are a type of
> computer, so I am not surpised that this genealogy is odd to
> me. But there is sooooo much out there. So much to read. :(
>
> Up till a few weeks ago I thought that starting with
> Descartes was not justified, but I take that back now. But
> somehow, Rene's nemesis, Aristotle, needs to be included as
> well.
>
> I don't know anything about Vico, but I find Locke, Berkeley
> and Leibniz to be rather peripheral to *our* story.
>
> Kant certainly deserves an important place, but I think his
> nemesis, Goethe, may be more important for us.
>
> Fichte is actually the inventor of Activity as a
> philosophical concept (I just learnt that Hegel asked to be
> buried next to Fichte; like Goethe, very under recognized in
> the Anglophone world).
>
> Hegel is the inventor of Cultural Psychology, so agreed there.
>
> I think Stirner and Mach are total diversions from our
> tradition. But maybe someone can explain to me their role.
>
> Wundt and Dilthey are important, though I don't know them well.
>
> Feuerbach is a bit of a footnote, but if you're going to
> have Feuerbach, you've gotta have Moses Hess, author of
> "Philosophy of the Deed", and inspiration for "Theses on
> Feuerbach". Of course if you think Frege, Russell and Turing
> are important to the genealogy of CHAT, then you wouldn't
> want Hess.
>
> MARX, obviously, in CAPS.
>
> And I would have lines from a whole bunch of people going to
> Dewey, as well as Peirce and Mead, but even though Peirce
> was the elder, I don't think you can give him such priority.
> Dewey surely was the leader. Arguable.
>
> And where are the Gestaltists? Again, not for computer
> cognition, but there needs to be lines between Goethe and
> Kant and then to von Ehrenfels, and on to Koehler and Co.
>
> Russian linguists like Potebnya, but I don't know where they
> came from.
>
> And these threads are all tied together with LS Vygotsky, yes?
>
> Freud has to be mentioned (I forget his sources), with
> arrows to Luria. And after Vygotsky and Luria you have ANL
> and thus to present day people,
>
> I guess, you can't leave out Piaget, and I don't know
> Piaget's sources.
>
> I know some people rate Merleau-Ponty, but if you're going
> to give Merleau-Pony a seat, you have to put in Lukacs and
> Horkheimer. I guess Habermas for discourse ethics, etc.
>
> I have no idea why Husserl and Heidegger get a mention. I my
> humble opinion, as clever as they might be, their impact on
> Activity Theory has only been negative.
>
> I have no idea why Bergson is mentioned: was he a source for
> Piaget? Don't know why Nietzsche is there. Interesting guy,
> but so are many others. Why von Uexhill?
>
> I agree that Wittgenstein rates a mention, though I don't
> know how much of a source he has been for us. He is some
> kind of version of Activity Theory.
>
> Frege, Russell and Turing are nothing to do with CHAT. What
> about anthropologists??
>
> Never heard of Maturana.
>
> That's my reaction,
>
> Andy
>
> Louise Hawkins wrote:
>
> Andy,
> I remember seeing this diagram a number of years ago,
> and I found it useful as a big picture diagram to get my
> head around the significant theorist.
> Regards
> Louise Hawkins
> Lecturer - School of Management & Information Systems
> Faculty Business & Informatics
> Building 19/Room 3.38
> Rockhampton Campus
> CQUniversity
> Ph: +617 4923 2768
> Fax: +617 4930 9729
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andy Blunden [mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>] Sent: Wednesday, 4 November
> 2009 01:05 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"
> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/Theoretical%20connections.jpg
> I never found this map very useful to be honest.
> Andy
> mike cole wrote:
>
> Have you found Arne Raeithel's "genealogy" of
> cultural-historical, activity theory thinkers from
> several years back. I am sure it is somewhere at
> lchc.ucsd.edu <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
> <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>. Perhaps you (and Andy,
> and.....) could update it with
> more detail. Hegel generated so much that has been
> "laundered" by subsequent "original" thinkers its
> totally amazing, and ditto Mead (whose writings i
> know far better, although very inadequately).
>
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> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
> Ilyenkov $20 ea
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> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
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-- 
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Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, 
Ilyenkov $20 ea
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