[Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc
robsub@ariadne.org.uk
robsub@ariadne.org.uk
Wed Sep 16 11:45:37 PDT 2020
You can't really categorise Johnson in terms of left or right. His key
criterion for any political action is his own ego. he always wants power
but never responsibility. He is finding out, rudely, that he cannot
divest himself of responsibility in the office he holds.
The Conservative party stopped being conservative with Margaret
Thatcher. Alan Clark had it right - she was far too radical to be a
Tory. But the Tory party went along with her because they always go with
the person who can bring them to power. Then - eventually - they chose
Cameron who has no political anchor except for a belief in privilege.
Then they had a brief flirtation with May, who they hoped would be
another iron lady, but turned out to be tin. Then they chose johnson who
has no political anchor at all. And I'm cynical enough to believe that
the tories will cling to climate change denial as long as possible
because of donations and friendship networks, not for any other reason.
But I can see your main point, Andy, that issues can be left at one time
and right at another - the British position on the EU is a good example.
When we joined tories were pro and labour were against. (Liberals were
and are pro, being very internationalist in orientation). Now the Tories
are vehemently against and Labour are all over the place.
Rob
On 16/09/2020 14:46, Andy Blunden wrote:
>
> Mmm. Well, I see all this from a great distance. I always had the
> impression that Macron or Boris Johnson formally adhere to climate
> science but are accused of dragging their heels rather than outright
> denial of the science. In Oz we have a government which is going to
> build a gas-fired power station using government funds when it isn't
> needed and private capital won't invest in it, just for the sake of
> proving that climate science is bunk.
>
> But my point was that issues can be Left in one time and place and
> right in another. Often little to do with the real social content of
> the issue.
>
> andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!V9MuXrtzL2hCTa59NglAjNyZA0ulePo5VzbK5HTuuV2RyuiW9UJC2A-VtE224nHiKSn3Jw$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!V9MuXrtzL2hCTa59NglAjNyZA0ulePo5VzbK5HTuuV2RyuiW9UJC2A-VtE224nGI4ljksA$>
>
> On 16/09/2020 6:14 pm, robsub@ariadne.org.uk wrote:
>> Andy "in France and the UK climate change denial is more associated
>> with the Left than the Right"
>>
>> I don't know about France, but in the UK climate change denial is
>> definitely a right wing thing. It now goes with Brexit. There are a
>> lot of climate deniers who habitually vote Labour but I doubt that
>> you could call many of them "left wing". There is a heavily
>> conservative lump of Labour votes in what you might call the
>> traditional working classes, as demonstrated by the ease with which
>> in Dec 2019 the so called red wall of northern industrial (or
>> ex-industrial) Parliamentary seats became blue overnight.
>>
>> Much of this is to do with the fact that they have been consistently
>> lied to for forty years by the right wing press, which a majority of
>> them always read, despite being Labour voters. Margaret Thatcher
>> truly unleashed a demon for which we are now paying the price. But
>> both of those facts are a topic for another day.
>>
>> Rob
>>
>> On 16/09/2020 01:50, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks David. I think the reason that Vygotsky insisted on a General
>>> Psychology and specifically *not* a "Marxist" Psychology is indeed
>>> the same reason that I told Anthony that I think "Leftism" is not a
>>> helpful way to come to an understanding of Marxism. Our aim (this
>>> "we" constituted by our collaboration) is human emancipation. We
>>> need concepts which are *true*, irrespective of whether they are
>>> categorised as Left or Right. For example, in France and the UK
>>> climate change denial is more associated with the Left than the
>>> Right, while in Oz and the US climate change denial is associated
>>> with the Right. Political partisanship is no way to Science.
>>> Vygotsky wanted a Science, because his goal is human emancipation.
>>> Insofar as a Psychology defined itself as furthering *any *current
>>> of ideology, then it cannot be science. And BTW, that applies
>>> equally to Deborin or Bukharin.
>>>
>>> It remains the case though, in the words of the US commentator Seth
>>> Myers I think, that "reality has a liberal bias."
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>> Hegel for Social Movements
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!Uq4amehuoQoHAlk4pfIfv-eA_bmxFVvdeERLjc0oFCmDDI_BvjReGnd7iklTasek2txvlg$>
>>> Home Page
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!Uq4amehuoQoHAlk4pfIfv-eA_bmxFVvdeERLjc0oFCmDDI_BvjReGnd7iklTase7b7MhEg$>
>>>
>>> On 16/09/2020 7:10 am, David Kellogg wrote:
>>>> Anthony often wonders whether there is any necessary connection
>>>> between Marxism and what he calls "leftism". Andy even has a video
>>>> where he suggests that making that connection is not a "helpful"
>>>> way of thinking about Marxist philosophy.
>>>>
>>>> I get it. When we read "The HIstorical Sense of the Crisis in
>>>> Psychology" we hear Vygotsky asking his closest friends and
>>>> collaborators NOT to use the term Marxism when referring to their
>>>> work, not only because he doesn't want it associated with political
>>>> pietism but also because he doesn't think that the current method
>>>> of "copy and paste" quotes from Marx and Engels is yielding
>>>> anything like a real Marxist psychology. (Interestingly, the late
>>>> Lucien Seve believed that this criticism was directed at Deborin,
>>>> but Andy thinks it is directed against mechanists like Bukharin).
>>>>
>>>> But to me Anthony's question answers itself. What he calls
>>>> "leftism" is really just what Andy calls "world perezhivanie", it
>>>> is sociogenesis made into conscious awareness. That is, it is human
>>>> societies confronted by other societies and trying to change
>>>> themselves rather than be changed. When they do this, even if they
>>>> do not recognize any "final, complete, ideal form" (and Vygotsky
>>>> says no such recognition is possible in Chapter Four of Foundations
>>>> of Pedology) they become aware that the principles of blind
>>>> adaptation themselves can be changed (as animals do) into those of
>>>> design. Contrary to individuals adapting to the environment,
>>>> societies that look after the old, the young, and the sick are made
>>>> stronger and better, because the whole course of development is
>>>> deliberate and indirect adaptation rather than blind and direct. .
>>>>
>>>> I think, Martin, that both Lenin and Trotsky believed strongly in
>>>> the evitability of capitalism, and both considered it to be the key
>>>> question of their time, both in the Russian and in the incipient
>>>> Chinese revolution. They did come up with different solutions, and
>>>> you are right to say that Lenin's solution lent itself much more
>>>> easily to Stalin's believe in the five universal stages of human
>>>> society (primitive communism, slavery, feudalism, capitalism and
>>>> socialism). Lenin believed that the capitalist development of the
>>>> Russian empire (which of course included many non-capitalist
>>>> societies) can and should be stopped by a "democratic dictatorship
>>>> of the proletariat and the peasantry", which would bring in
>>>> capitalism but exercise dictatorship over the capitalists
>>>> themselves, ensuring that the democratic tasks of the revolution
>>>> (ensuring franchise to the disenfranchised, including land to the
>>>> tillers) were carried out in a way that would enable a transition
>>>> to socialism (withering away the state, common ownership of land).
>>>> Trotsky believed that no capitalist stage would be necessary,
>>>> because there would be revolutions in Germany, England, France, and
>>>> above all the USA, and the world organization of production would
>>>> allow non-capitalist societies to develop from primitive communism
>>>> to true communism.
>>>>
>>>> When Joseph Glick wrote his "Prologue" to Volume Four of the
>>>> (English) Vygotsky Collected Works, he argued that one reason why
>>>> Vygotsky was so important to educators in the post-Piaget era was
>>>> that he offered a way of doing without universal Piagetian stages.
>>>> We now know, from the pedological work, that Vygotsky had his own
>>>> stages in mind. But we still don't know if he saw the stages as
>>>> evitable the way that Lenin did or whether he believed, as did
>>>> Trotsky, in permanent revolution.
>>>> (By the way, Renee Van der Veer has now published a translation of
>>>> "Pedology of School Age"--in English!)
>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D6WDK3H/ref=pe_385040_118058080_TE_M1DP__;!!Mih3wA!U_bv2KW-ftNMzuDS2SLqJmbTsr0fKqISyBSgQT4t6X0SdZ13ULyTluFK1_NfXHODdxwVHw$
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D6WDK3H/ref=pe_385040_118058080_TE_M1DP__;!!Mih3wA!SrpIrAAR8TbxIJDvFPI-ToFM1WKVl9U0uJJT8Q-kFMIF0SS9DZiNZNL9-jnI1h0ETuXihA$>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> David Kellogg
>>>> Sangmyung University
>>>>
>>>> New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity:
>>>> Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between
>>>> Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky
>>>>
>>>> Some free e-prints today available at:
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!U_bv2KW-ftNMzuDS2SLqJmbTsr0fKqISyBSgQT4t6X0SdZ13ULyTluFK1_NfXHPIaDH02g$
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!SrpIrAAR8TbxIJDvFPI-ToFM1WKVl9U0uJJT8Q-kFMIF0SS9DZiNZNL9-jnI1h2f7BKdEA$>
>>>>
>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological
>>>> Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology"
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!U_bv2KW-ftNMzuDS2SLqJmbTsr0fKqISyBSgQT4t6X0SdZ13ULyTluFK1_NfXHOlNntH6A$
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SrpIrAAR8TbxIJDvFPI-ToFM1WKVl9U0uJJT8Q-kFMIF0SS9DZiNZNL9-jnI1h0O4IyFmQ$>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 1:00 AM Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net
>>>> <mailto:mpacker@cantab.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no
>>>>> universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught).
>>>>
>>>> This happens to be something I’ve been thinking about recently
>>>> — the ‘evitability’ (avoidability, as opposed to inevitability)
>>>> of capitalism. I’ve been reading some of the work of Douglass
>>>> North, who won a Nobel prize in economics in 1993 for his
>>>> analysis of the role that institutions have played in economic
>>>> ‘development,’ He thought he was describing how the West
>>>> achieved ‘progress’ and has been able to ‘evolve’ further than
>>>> other regions, but one can read his work as describing
>>>> alternative pathways in the formation of economic systems,
>>>> which in the West has led to an imbalance in which profit and
>>>> growth have become the only measures of societal and individual
>>>> achievement.
>>>>
>>>> A neat illustration: the NY Times has been publishing
>>>> reflections upon an article written 50 years ago by Milton
>>>> Friedman titled "The Social Responsibility Of Business Is
>>>> to Increase Its Profits." Friedman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> WHEN I hear businessmen speak eloquently about the
>>>> “social responsibilities of business in a free‐enterprise
>>>> system,” I am reminded of the wonderful line about the
>>>> Frenchman who discovered at, the age of 70 that he had been
>>>> speaking prose all his life. The businessmen believe that
>>>> they are defending free enterprise when they declaim
>>>> that business is not concerned “merely” with profit but
>>>> also with promoting desirable “social” ends; that business
>>>> has a “social conscience” and takes seriously its
>>>> responsibilities for providing employment, eliminating
>>>> discrimination, avoiding pollution and whatever else may
>>>> be the catchwords of the contemporary crop of reformers. In
>>>> fact they are—or would be if they or any one else took them
>>>> seriously— preaching pure and unadulterated socialism.
>>>> Businessmen who talk this way are unwitting puppets of the
>>>> intellectual forces that have been undermining the basis of
>>>> a free society these past decades.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It will be hard to find a better statement of the ideology that
>>>> has got us all into the current mess.
>>>>
>>>> On the left, was it with Lenin that capitalism became viewed as
>>>> a necessary prerequisite to socialism? For example, as I
>>>> understand it after the revolution in Mexico, 1910-1920, the
>>>> PRI (Partido Revolucionario Institucional) worked hard to turn
>>>> the indigenous peoples into a proletariat. This was the only
>>>> way they could imagine societal progress: quickly moving the
>>>> country into capitalism so as to achieve socialism. I conclude
>>>> that it was not only Stalin who taught this.
>>>>
>>>> Martin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:57 PM, David Kellogg
>>>>> <dkellogg60@gmail.com <mailto:dkellogg60@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If you click on the link that Henry, and before him John,
>>>>> offered, you get the pro-natural-capital side of a debate in
>>>>> the pages of the Guardian on whether or not "nature" can be
>>>>> valued as capital and whether it is good or bad for nature for
>>>>> humans to do this. I think that in CHAT, we are indebted to
>>>>> Marx for many things, but surely one debt we would do well not
>>>>> to disavow is Marx's insistence (in Critique of the Gotha
>>>>> programme and elsewhere) that nature is NOT capital: on the
>>>>> contrary, humans and all of their various property forms from
>>>>> communism to capitalism must be considered peculiar forms of
>>>>> nature. This is a discussion that CHAT needs to have if we are
>>>>> going to retain the AT in CHAT. I disagree with Peter Jones on
>>>>> many many things, but one thing I heartily agree with him on
>>>>> is the idea that Leontiev brings an intensely
>>>>> anti-naturalistic view of activity into activity
>>>>> theory--humans acting as subjects on passive environments to
>>>>> produce beneficial outcomes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Marx had a better idea: in the Ethnological Notebooks, he
>>>>> shows us that capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as
>>>>> capital, is no universal stage (contrary to what Stalin
>>>>> taught). Western capitalism, with its idea of nature as
>>>>> capital, is really just one extreme variant. In Marx's
>>>>> columns on the Sepoy rebellion and the Taiping rebellion, he
>>>>> even posits an "Asiantic mode of production" that had
>>>>> virtually nothing to do with feudalism. So to say that South
>>>>> Korea and Japan are equally capitalist societies is really a
>>>>> little like saying that China and the USSR were equally
>>>>> non-capitalist. Deus Sive Natura: and neither one is capital.
>>>>>
>>>>> David Kellogg
>>>>> Sangmyung University
>>>>>
>>>>> New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity:
>>>>> Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between
>>>>> Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky
>>>>>
>>>>> Some free e-prints today available at:
>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!U_bv2KW-ftNMzuDS2SLqJmbTsr0fKqISyBSgQT4t6X0SdZ13ULyTluFK1_NfXHPIaDH02g$
>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!W-RPX1ECIuKav0e-i1es3roVHR0WUtjgmoG2iARQqbybBsxElYTIACu53v3cWm487oUiBw$>
>>>>>
>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's
>>>>> Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology"
>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!U_bv2KW-ftNMzuDS2SLqJmbTsr0fKqISyBSgQT4t6X0SdZ13ULyTluFK1_NfXHOlNntH6A$
>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!W-RPX1ECIuKav0e-i1es3roVHR0WUtjgmoG2iARQqbybBsxElYTIACu53v3cWm7NjX5sJQ$>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 3:43 AM HENRY SHONERD
>>>>> <hshonerd@gmail.com <mailto:hshonerd@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Martin, John and Andy
>>>>> Thanks to Martin for kicking off this topic and John and
>>>>> Andy for following up. I has amazed me to find, for me,
>>>>> how the RTZ narrative resonates with both Navajo and
>>>>> Pueblo narratives here in New Mexico. How evil RTZ is,
>>>>> but how wonderful the courage of our native peoples!
>>>>>
>>>>> Chaco Canyon IS a tourist destination here in New Mexico.
>>>>> Though there has been no destruction of the site that,
>>>>> based on Native American narratives and the efforts of
>>>>> archeologists, is architecturally spectacular evidence of
>>>>> the pre-Colombian culture from which the present-day
>>>>> Pueblos come. What parallels RTZ activities on aboriginal
>>>>> lands in Australia is the drilling for gas and oil on
>>>>> Navajo lands surrounding Chaco and a rush to buy more
>>>>> rights while Trump is in power. There have been protests,
>>>>> though nothing as intense and effective as the Standing
>>>>> Rock protests to protect water on native lands to our
>>>>> north and east from gas and oil predation (the pipeline).
>>>>> Standing Rock was LED by Native Americans, many from the
>>>>> Navajo, Apache and Pueblo near me.
>>>>>
>>>>> I just saw yesterday a 30-year-old film that is one of the
>>>>> offerings of the Vision Maker Film Festival: Clear Cut. I
>>>>> recommend it, or at least a look at the wiki article about
>>>>> it. It couldn’t be more timely. It’s messy, where
>>>>> contention between environmental and logging interests and
>>>>> division WITHIN the native community (traditon vs. jobs)
>>>>> leave one stunned. What redeems a messy struggle is
>>>>> exactly what Andy says: The aboriginal people of the world
>>>>> do it for us! In the same way, when “our” Pueblos put on
>>>>> feasts and invite us in to witness their dances, they do
>>>>> it for us. Perhaps you recall the movie “Koyaniskaatsi”,
>>>>> la Hopi word that has been translated as "life out of
>>>>> balance". (The Hopis are a Puebloan people, descendants of
>>>>> the Chacoan culture. The Navajos and Apaches arrived here
>>>>> about the same time as the European colonizers, based on
>>>>> linguistic and genetic evidence.) If you live in New
>>>>> Mexico, you are around Pueblo people. If you are really
>>>>> lucky, and many of us are, you become friends with them
>>>>> and they invite you to share their food at the feasts! How
>>>>> generous is this? They do it for us.
>>>>>
>>>>> The RTZ narrative is not only destructive to cultural
>>>>> capital, it is implicated in natural capital
>>>>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/nov/23/monbiot-natural-capital-wrong-conservation__;!!Mih3wA!U_bv2KW-ftNMzuDS2SLqJmbTsr0fKqISyBSgQT4t6X0SdZ13ULyTluFK1_NfXHMwUEKNBA$
>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/nov/23/monbiot-natural-capital-wrong-conservation__;!!Mih3wA!SBdL369rv5LA2eUVglK7x1RO_gnzeKTtEL3aixjV1TAMOI-HkqMNbHUWvJAN5h7atm8Krw$>)
>>>>> via climate change. (The link here, to a Guardian article
>>>>> is available through the first link in John’s post). Here
>>>>> again we should look to our native peoples. There is
>>>>> credible research that concludes the climate change
>>>>> lengthens fire seasons but wrong-headed environmental
>>>>> policies make the fires more intense, hence less
>>>>> controllable. Add to this the incursion of housing into
>>>>> forested areas and the destruction is a doubly
>>>>> self-inflicted wound. And hold on for this one for the
>>>>> best CHAT connection: Native peoples of this continent
>>>>> used to set controlled burns to remove the kind of unburnt
>>>>> fuel to avoid such conflagrations. Today some of the
>>>>> best-trained and most effective firefighters in this
>>>>> country are Native Americans. Cultural capital. They do it
>>>>> for us, and their example from the past can serve us now.
>>>>> Cultural capital.
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe I have crowed before about New Mexico and our
>>>>> Native Americans. Australia has crowing rights as well.
>>>>> And, for standing proud, there’s nothing like an anthem.
>>>>> The best anthem music I have EVER heard comes from
>>>>> Australia: Yothu Yindi What a great project that brings
>>>>> together white people and people of color. What great
>>>>> creative collaboration. Andy, I am telling you again,
>>>>> project is a great unit of analysis, precisely because it
>>>>> brings together cognition and affect, because it embodies
>>>>> active orientation. In my country, it is pretty well
>>>>> agreed that the natives got screwed, across the political
>>>>> divide. Black Lives Matter is more complex, but there is
>>>>> hope that the question of race is now where LGBTQ issues
>>>>> were at the time of the AIDS crisis, in the last century.
>>>>> Back then we could never have guessed we would be where we
>>>>> are with non-gender-conforming acceptance now. Just
>>>>> saying, as much for myself as for anybody else listening.
>>>>>
>>>>> La Era Está Pariendo Un Corazón
>>>>> Henry
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden
>>>>>> <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Er. " *NO *physical markers"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!S5K6-3pAdjVKLQOipHOtp4mkhFhXR1sxkXKZDQnO0A7C1xQKXN0SUjkqI9KbXmCMTCf0iQ$>
>>>>>> Home Page
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!S5K6-3pAdjVKLQOipHOtp4mkhFhXR1sxkXKZDQnO0A7C1xQKXN0SUjkqI9KbXmDbUUpHdA$>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 14/09/2020 11:43 am, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list before
>>>>>>> noticing that John had already responded, and John is
>>>>>>> much better informed than me about these matters, and
>>>>>>> yet I spoke as if he didn't exist. My apologies.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> These caves are nothing for tourism. They are too remote
>>>>>>> and there are others more accessible. I believe the
>>>>>>> caves have been under Native Title as a result of a
>>>>>>> bitter struggle to protect them by the local people in
>>>>>>> the 1990s. This means that RTZ had to get permission
>>>>>>> from the PKK people. The lawyers swindled them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my view, all these sites which are not only part of
>>>>>>> Aboriginal heritage (there are places which have *NO
>>>>>>> *physical markers of their status but are sacred to the
>>>>>>> local people) but self-evidently of *world* heritage.
>>>>>>> But I don't think these caves were registered as World
>>>>>>> Heritage. I have not heard the discussion about this
>>>>>>> (John?). No-one wants to say this, I think, because it
>>>>>>> implies that Indigenous values are somehow less
>>>>>>> important than human values. For example, under the law
>>>>>>> as it stands the PKK Land Council would have a right to
>>>>>>> let RTZ destroy the caves and maybe a million dollars or
>>>>>>> two in the bank or a new school, would be enough. This
>>>>>>> is not a hypothetical. One of the reasons that the
>>>>>>> Indigenous people remain impoverished even where they
>>>>>>> have Native Title over large areas of land, is that they
>>>>>>> live, after all, in a capitalist country and Native
>>>>>>> title cannot be sold. It is not a commodity. Therefore
>>>>>>> it is not a form of wealth. You can't get a mortgage to
>>>>>>> build a house on land you own by Native title. You
>>>>>>> can't sell a block to a farmer so you can buy
>>>>>>> agricultural equipment to farm another block. In short,
>>>>>>> by blocking the Indigenous people from monetising their
>>>>>>> land rights we trap them in poverty. In general, the
>>>>>>> indigenous people are happy to forgo tourist income to
>>>>>>> protect their sacred sites (e.g. Uluru) and I don't
>>>>>>> doubt for an instant, that if they'd been properly
>>>>>>> consulted they never would have agreed to the
>>>>>>> destruction of the caves. Obviously. But they do have to
>>>>>>> have rights to trade with their land. But also the world
>>>>>>> needs to keep absolutely unique archaeological sites
>>>>>>> pristine and the local people should be supported by
>>>>>>> governments to do the work of protecting them on *our*
>>>>>>> behalf. Recognising the great cost entailed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!XARa5o_f0_F8FwoOvEi2G83w7OupjEw0Qs4sAopd9iMJNxF19MT9A4BOkNVcEAAZnw4ahQ$>
>>>>>>> Home Page
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!XARa5o_f0_F8FwoOvEi2G83w7OupjEw0Qs4sAopd9iMJNxF19MT9A4BOkNVcEABlTgxfKw$>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote:
>>>>>>>> Thanks, John and Andy,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I suppose that I am naive, for this event astonishes me
>>>>>>>> in so many different ways. I would have assumed that
>>>>>>>> the land title or native title granted to indigenous
>>>>>>>> peoples over some territory in Australia would have
>>>>>>>> included the Juuken Gorge caves. I would have assumed
>>>>>>>> that these caves were a national cultural heritage
>>>>>>>> site, or even a world cultural heritage site. I would
>>>>>>>> have assumed that indigenous rights would have more
>>>>>>>> importance to the Australian government, and indeed to
>>>>>>>> the Australian people. I would have assumed that, while
>>>>>>>> mining is apparently of great economic importance to
>>>>>>>> the country, the government would have considered the
>>>>>>>> economic value of this site for tourism, or simply the
>>>>>>>> impact that destroying the caves would have on
>>>>>>>> Australia’s reputation. And while I suppose that
>>>>>>>> unbridled rapaciousness on the part of an international
>>>>>>>> mining company is hardly a surprise, I would have
>>>>>>>> thought that Rio Tinto would also have considered the
>>>>>>>> negative publicity that their actions would create.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How can we express our displeasure to the various
>>>>>>>> parties involved? Are there petitions that one can
>>>>>>>> sign? Or Twitter accounts to which one can tweet?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO
>>>>>>>> Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if his bonus this year would
>>>>>>>> have been A$4.9 million. Perhaps he could donate a few
>>>>>>>> years of his salary to establish a foundation that
>>>>>>>> could work for indigenous peoples’ rights.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> sadly
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Martin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps Clark
>>>>>>>>> <john.crippsclark@deakin.edu.au
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:john.crippsclark@deakin.edu.au>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves (which I
>>>>>>>>> assume you are referring to) is a much more villainous
>>>>>>>>> act than was originally portrayed and reflects the
>>>>>>>>> venal racism not only of the company but also of the
>>>>>>>>> State Government. For those not familiar with this
>>>>>>>>> shocking crime, the $80b Anglo Australian mining
>>>>>>>>> company which on Sunday 24th of May blew up a site
>>>>>>>>> sacred to the Puutu Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP)
>>>>>>>>> traditional owners and occupied for 46,000 years at
>>>>>>>>> least, to extend iron ore mining. "“It’s one of the
>>>>>>>>> most sacred sites in the Pilbara region … we wanted to
>>>>>>>>> have that area protected,” PKKP director Burchell
>>>>>>>>> Hayes. The traditional owners tried desperately to
>>>>>>>>> stop the blast once they became aware it was impending.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there was a
>>>>>>>>> misunderstanding" but and, after much outrage, the
>>>>>>>>> three members of the executive had their multi million
>>>>>>>>> dollar bonuses reduced. It has subsequently emerged
>>>>>>>>> that Rio Tinto had contracted lawyers to oppose any
>>>>>>>>> injunctions before the crime was committed. The chief
>>>>>>>>> executive and two of his underlings have resigned.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The crime was legal and was made possible by State
>>>>>>>>> Government laws which are stacked in favour of miners.
>>>>>>>>> Assessments of the cultural and environmental
>>>>>>>>> significance are made with little investigation and
>>>>>>>>> remain in place for decades and have rarely been
>>>>>>>>> successfully be challenged. No permission to destroy
>>>>>>>>> heritage sites in WA has been refused (and there have
>>>>>>>>> been 463 applications).
>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$
>>>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It is not as if we didn’t know that this would happen.
>>>>>>>>> Norway's pension fund divested their holdings in Rio
>>>>>>>>> Tinto in 2008: "Exclusion of a company from the Fund
>>>>>>>>> reflects our unwillingness to run an unacceptable risk
>>>>>>>>> of contributing to grossly unethical conduct. The
>>>>>>>>> Council on Ethics has concluded that Rio Tinto is
>>>>>>>>> directly involved, through its participation in the
>>>>>>>>> Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the severe
>>>>>>>>> environmental damage caused by that mining operation."
>>>>>>>>> — Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of Finance
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A useful background briefing of indigenous rights in
>>>>>>>>> Australia:
>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$
>>>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 13/9/20, 12:26 am,
>>>>>>>>> "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of
>>>>>>>>> Martin Packer" <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of
>>>>>>>>> mpacker@cantab.net <mailto:mpacker@cantab.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to??
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Martin
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Important Notice: The contents of this email are
>>>>>>>>> intended solely for the named addressee and are
>>>>>>>>> confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or
>>>>>>>>> storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If
>>>>>>>>> you have received this email in error, please delete
>>>>>>>>> it and any attachments immediately and advise the
>>>>>>>>> sender by return email or telephone.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Deakin University does not warrant that this email and
>>>>>>>>> any attachments are error or virus free.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
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