From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Sep 2 16:01:36 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 08:01:36 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] The Idea of the Idea Message-ID: Spinoza says that the mnd is the body's idea of itself. But the way he says it is a little weird: he says that the idea of the mind has the same relationship to the mind as the mind has to the body. So the idea of the mind is the idea of the idea of the body of itself. As told Anthony, I think that Spinoza's "idea of the idea" is pretty important for Vygotsky. Just to take an example, when Vygotsky argues (in Chapter Six of T&S and also in his lecture on School Age, which I am currently translating for Volume Two of the Pedological Works) that the reason why the child's other functions have become intellectualized but intellect as such remains unintellectual is that before you can have the idea of the idea, you need to have the idea. Scientific concepts, higher aesthetic concepts, ethical thinking, Darwin's tree, the hierarchy of genus and family and species, the powers of ten in mathematics--all of these depend on the idea of the idea.. My own PhD supervisor, David Butt, points out that every clause ever produced can be given a unique and precise "semantic address" (that is, we can exhaustively describe it in terms of unique, once-occurent choices at the phoneme, word, group, phrase, and clause level). Because each higher rank is entirely and only composed of elements from lower ranks, we can describe the higher rank as an idea of the idea (a notion of a notion, a concept of a concept). Yanis Varoufakis argues that sometime in late August, in both the UK and the USA, capitalism made an important and terrifying transition. Although BOTH economies are now in Covid-induced recessions, BOTH are experiencing major stock market expansions. This is because, Varoufakis argues, in both countries there are enough speculators who believe that there are enough speculators who believe that stock prices will increase at least in the short term, despite the dismal prospects for shareholders in the long term. The idea of the idea has become more powerful than the idea itself. (As usual, we are at the cutting edge here in Seoul: our real estate market has depended entirely on this idea of the idea for years!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky Some free e-prints today available at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!SRiw8QGioBGwdR67oxWjWvvziYnUdmMNTwZzxYNpjkvhAxGygLOjYitcV25uLPKGy16y6w$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SRiw8QGioBGwdR67oxWjWvvziYnUdmMNTwZzxYNpjkvhAxGygLOjYitcV25uLPKISZZUHA$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200903/06ca8bfa/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Sep 2 17:25:53 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 18:25:53 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Idea of the Idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1AFE0E73-0856-4EBC-91C2-5C91D432C0DE@gmail.com> David, Go to your browser, type in ?The stock market is not the economy?. Henry > On Sep 2, 2020, at 5:01 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > Spinoza says that the mnd is the body's idea of itself. But the way he says it is a little weird: he says that the idea of the mind has the same relationship to the mind as the mind has to the body. So the idea of the mind is the idea of the idea of the body of itself. > > As told Anthony, I think that Spinoza's "idea of the idea" is pretty important for Vygotsky. Just to take an example, when Vygotsky argues (in Chapter Six of T&S and also in his lecture on School Age, which I am currently translating for Volume Two of the Pedological Works) that the reason why the child's other functions have become intellectualized but intellect as such remains unintellectual is that before you can have the idea of the idea, you need to have the idea. > > Scientific concepts, higher aesthetic concepts, ethical thinking, Darwin's tree, the hierarchy of genus and family and species, the powers of ten in mathematics--all of these depend on the idea of the idea.. My own PhD supervisor, David Butt, points out that every clause ever produced can be given a unique and precise "semantic address" (that is, we can exhaustively describe it in terms of unique, once-occurent choices at the phoneme, word, group, phrase, and clause level). Because each higher rank is entirely and only composed of elements from lower ranks, we can describe the higher rank as an idea of the idea (a notion of a notion, a concept of a concept). > > Yanis Varoufakis argues that sometime in late August, in both the UK and the USA, capitalism made an important and terrifying transition. Although BOTH economies are now in Covid-induced recessions, BOTH are experiencing major stock market expansions. This is because, Varoufakis argues, in both countries there are enough speculators who believe that there are enough speculators who believe that stock prices will increase at least in the short term, despite the dismal prospects for shareholders in the long term. The idea of the idea has become more powerful than the idea itself. > > (As usual, we are at the cutting edge here in Seoul: our real estate market has depended entirely on this idea of the idea for years!) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: > Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky > > Some free e-prints today available at: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!SYDoviZLCzhlKgbWxKcxPab_egS461060WkEHP_BtLzLfYIYgpJab9onRp30NPIy-ybgyQ$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SYDoviZLCzhlKgbWxKcxPab_egS461060WkEHP_BtLzLfYIYgpJab9onRp30NPJarbS3jA$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200902/2fba0f4f/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Wed Sep 2 17:44:30 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 10:44:30 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Idea of the Idea In-Reply-To: <1AFE0E73-0856-4EBC-91C2-5C91D432C0DE@gmail.com> References: <1AFE0E73-0856-4EBC-91C2-5C91D432C0DE@gmail.com> Message-ID: As I see it, the governments are pumping vast amounts of cash into the economy to stimulate the economy. Governments, being what they are, give a bit of it to poor people who will actually spend it, but most of it goes to wealthy people via tax cuts and corporations supposedly so they'll spend the money hiring people. But because of the pandemic people don't have much to spend discretionary money on and there is absolutely no prospects for productive investments while businesses are going over the cliff like lemmings. So what do you do with the money? You invest it in the Stock Market, which is not paying dividends, but it can still absorb the money with wealthy people buying and selling paper to each other. The result is that the total amount of money in the economy increases but all of it in the hands of the wealthy, while the cash in the hands of the poor is going down. The result is declining real economic activity (making things and doing things for other people) and massively increased inequality, because even though the stocks don't generate new wealth, they can still be converted into the same money you use in the Supermarket. andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 3/09/2020 10:25 am, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > David, > Go to your browser, type in ?The stock market is not the > economy?. > Henry > >> On Sep 2, 2020, at 5:01 PM, David Kellogg >> > wrote: >> >> Spinoza says that the mnd is the body's idea of itself. >> But the way he says it is a little weird: he says that >> the idea of the mind has the same relationship to the >> mind as the mind has to the body. So the idea of the mind >> is the idea of the idea of the body of itself. >> >> As told Anthony, I think that Spinoza's "idea of the >> idea" is pretty important for Vygotsky. Just to take an >> example, when Vygotsky argues (in Chapter Six of T&S and >> also in his lecture on School Age, which I am currently >> translating for Volume Two of the Pedological Works) that >> the reason why the child's other functions have become >> intellectualized but intellect as such remains >> unintellectual is that before you can have the idea of >> the idea, you need to have the idea. >> >> Scientific concepts, higher aesthetic concepts, ethical >> thinking, Darwin's tree, the hierarchy of genus and >> family and species, the powers of ten in mathematics--all >> of these depend on the idea of the idea.. My own PhD >> supervisor, David Butt, points out that every clause ever >> produced can be given a unique and precise "semantic >> address" (that is, we can exhaustively describe it in >> terms of unique, once-occurent choices at the phoneme, >> word, group, phrase, and clause level). Because each >> higher rank is entirely and only composed of elements >> from lower ranks, we can describe the higher rank as an >> idea of the idea (a notion of a notion, a concept of a >> concept). >> >> Yanis Varoufakis argues that sometime in late August, in >> both the UK and the USA, capitalism made an important and >> terrifying transition. Although BOTH economies are now in >> Covid-induced recessions, BOTH are experiencing major >> stock market expansions. This is because, Varoufakis >> argues, in both countries there are enough speculators >> who believe that there are enough speculators who believe >> that stock prices will increase at least in the short >> term, despite the dismal prospects for shareholders in >> the long term. The idea of the idea has become more >> powerful than the idea itself. >> >> (As usual, we are at the cutting edge here in Seoul: our? >> real estate market has depended entirely on this idea of >> the idea for years!) >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: >> Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and >> between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky >> >> Some free e-prints today available at: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!XRbYrYRrIZ1UhRKXtLKsmhreiCptJ8yy703Vu0VRPnE3HlElcDm2ORo6LhbAel_Yn7inFw$ >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's >> Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XRbYrYRrIZ1UhRKXtLKsmhreiCptJ8yy703Vu0VRPnE3HlElcDm2ORo6LhbAel8cBfueKQ$ >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200903/b201f685/attachment.html From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Thu Sep 3 05:46:09 2020 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 08:46:09 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Idea of the Idea In-Reply-To: References: <1AFE0E73-0856-4EBC-91C2-5C91D432C0DE@gmail.com> Message-ID: The break between "Wall Street and Main Street" where traditional economic outputs became poor indicators for stock performance really began after the 2008 economic crisis. The people in the USA getting extended unemployment don't own stocks they don't have 401ks. For the first time private liquid savings is increasing among the middle class and poor in the USA (that was before the 600 weekly checks got cut off). Still glad to see a chicken and egg discussion around whether an idea must exist before the idea of the idea exists....can it be simultaneous? In my personal experience even attaching linearity to ideas is problematic. I do my best writing in the shower or when I walk my dog.....never when I am trying to come up with ideas. On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 12:45 AM Andy Blunden wrote: > As I see it, the governments are pumping vast amounts of cash into the > economy to stimulate the economy. Governments, being what they are, give a > bit of it to poor people who will actually spend it, but most of it goes to > wealthy people via tax cuts and corporations supposedly so they'll spend > the money hiring people. But because of the pandemic people don't have much > to spend discretionary money on and there is absolutely no prospects for > productive investments while businesses are going over the cliff like > lemmings. So what do you do with the money? You invest it in the Stock > Market, which is not paying dividends, but it can still absorb the money > with wealthy people buying and selling paper to each other. The result is > that the total amount of money in the economy increases but all of it in > the hands of the wealthy, while the cash in the hands of the poor is going > down. The result is declining real economic activity (making things and > doing things for other people) and massively increased inequality, because > even though the stocks don't generate new wealth, they can still be > converted into the same money you use in the Supermarket. > > andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 3/09/2020 10:25 am, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > David, > Go to your browser, type in ?The stock market is not the economy?. > Henry > > On Sep 2, 2020, at 5:01 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > Spinoza says that the mnd is the body's idea of itself. But the way he > says it is a little weird: he says that the idea of the mind has the same > relationship to the mind as the mind has to the body. So the idea of the > mind is the idea of the idea of the body of itself. > > As told Anthony, I think that Spinoza's "idea of the idea" is pretty > important for Vygotsky. Just to take an example, when Vygotsky argues (in > Chapter Six of T&S and also in his lecture on School Age, which I am > currently translating for Volume Two of the Pedological Works) that the > reason why the child's other functions have become intellectualized but > intellect as such remains unintellectual is that before you can have the > idea of the idea, you need to have the idea. > > Scientific concepts, higher aesthetic concepts, ethical thinking, Darwin's > tree, the hierarchy of genus and family and species, the powers of ten in > mathematics--all of these depend on the idea of the idea.. My own PhD > supervisor, David Butt, points out that every clause ever produced can be > given a unique and precise "semantic address" (that is, we can exhaustively > describe it in terms of unique, once-occurent choices at the phoneme, word, > group, phrase, and clause level). Because each higher rank is entirely and > only composed of elements from lower ranks, we can describe the higher rank > as an idea of the idea (a notion of a notion, a concept of a concept). > > Yanis Varoufakis argues that sometime in late August, in both the UK and > the USA, capitalism made an important and terrifying transition. Although > BOTH economies are now in Covid-induced recessions, BOTH are experiencing > major stock market expansions. This is because, Varoufakis argues, in both > countries there are enough speculators who believe that there are enough > speculators who believe that stock prices will increase at least in the > short term, despite the dismal prospects for shareholders in the long term. > The idea of the idea has become more powerful than the idea itself. > > (As usual, we are at the cutting edge here in Seoul: our real estate > market has depended entirely on this idea of the idea for years!) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: > Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, > Hasan, and Vygotsky > > Some free e-prints today available at: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!UD7NzvK2E8ihVxompQJcQiGaEXi6QbZGC9i4RBzcS8UeOc1ASl4ttIou4piJlMDe8wCUYg$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UD7NzvK2E8ihVxompQJcQiGaEXi6QbZGC9i4RBzcS8UeOc1ASl4ttIou4piJlMBpRC3exw$ > > > > -- J. Gregory McVerry, PhD Assistant Professor Southern Connecticut State University twitter: jgmac1106 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200903/d9f82cb1/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Sep 3 14:08:47 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 06:08:47 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Idea of the Idea In-Reply-To: References: <1AFE0E73-0856-4EBC-91C2-5C91D432C0DE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Vygotsky uses 'perezhivanie' in many different places. Some writers have tried to explain this by saying that he uses it in an everyday sense (equivalent to 'experience') in his early writings but he uses it in a more scientific, technical sense (as a unit of analysis for the development of consciousness or the growth of the personality) in later writings. I am perfectly willing to accept that, and of course the Russian word does have that dual meaning. But Vygotsky ALSO uses 'perezhivanie' in two different sense in writings from the same period (e.g. the pedological writings). In the chapter on infancy, the nursling is undergoing a 'perezhivanie' because there is both the sensation of drinking milk and the feeling of satiety that follows on. And of course there is the famous triple example from the Problem of the Environment (a violent alcoholic mother creates three different perezhivanie in her children of different ages). So it seems that (like other units of analysis, e.g. word meaning in the analysis of the relation of thinking to speech) perezhivanie does develop. This CAN make it hard to use as a unit of analysis, if we imagine that a unit of analysis is simply a measuring device. If the unit of analysis itself is changing, comparisons become extremely difficult; it is as if you are trying to measure the height of the child in heads or forearm lenths instead of feet or inches. But a unit of analysis is NOT a measuring device; it is precisely a unique structure, specific to a particular age. The elements within it may be stable (or may appear so, when we regard them synoptically). But the relationship between them must change. If we consider 'perezhivanie" as the idea of the idea of an experience, it is much clearer how this relationship can change (and also how the ideas can appear to remain the same). It is also clear, to return to Greg's comment, that for the nursing infant linearity and temporality may be much more important in a perezhivanie, while for Greg in the shower or walking the dog it is much less so. The problem is that, as Andy points out, stock market speculators who only use the idea of the ideas that other speculators have are at the point where the idea of the idea no longer has any relationship at all to making things and doing things for people. At this point, people who make things and do things for other people have a choice. They can let Wall Street burn down their homes, or they can burn Wall Street down. . David Kellogg Sangmyung University New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky Some free e-prints today available at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!VII56gaMwsLrj0DoQwZYfwj3AalJqZJuw2NANw9SqwmRRYZIl8KUkthtH1Cj_4jFQjiF3g$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VII56gaMwsLrj0DoQwZYfwj3AalJqZJuw2NANw9SqwmRRYZIl8KUkthtH1Cj_4jlkqTNTw$ On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 9:48 PM Greg Mcverry wrote: > The break between "Wall Street and Main Street" where traditional economic > outputs became poor indicators for stock performance really began after the > 2008 economic crisis. The people in the USA getting extended unemployment > don't own stocks they don't have 401ks. > > For the first time private liquid savings is increasing among the middle > class and poor in the USA (that was before the 600 weekly checks got cut > off). > > Still glad to see a chicken and egg discussion around whether an idea must > exist before the idea of the idea exists....can it be simultaneous? > > In my personal experience even attaching linearity to ideas is > problematic. I do my best writing in the shower or when I walk my > dog.....never when I am trying to come up with ideas. > > On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 12:45 AM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> As I see it, the governments are pumping vast amounts of cash into the >> economy to stimulate the economy. Governments, being what they are, give a >> bit of it to poor people who will actually spend it, but most of it goes to >> wealthy people via tax cuts and corporations supposedly so they'll spend >> the money hiring people. But because of the pandemic people don't have much >> to spend discretionary money on and there is absolutely no prospects for >> productive investments while businesses are going over the cliff like >> lemmings. So what do you do with the money? You invest it in the Stock >> Market, which is not paying dividends, but it can still absorb the money >> with wealthy people buying and selling paper to each other. The result is >> that the total amount of money in the economy increases but all of it in >> the hands of the wealthy, while the cash in the hands of the poor is going >> down. The result is declining real economic activity (making things and >> doing things for other people) and massively increased inequality, because >> even though the stocks don't generate new wealth, they can still be >> converted into the same money you use in the Supermarket. >> >> andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 3/09/2020 10:25 am, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >> >> David, >> Go to your browser, type in ?The stock market is not the economy?. >> Henry >> >> On Sep 2, 2020, at 5:01 PM, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> Spinoza says that the mnd is the body's idea of itself. But the way he >> says it is a little weird: he says that the idea of the mind has the same >> relationship to the mind as the mind has to the body. So the idea of the >> mind is the idea of the idea of the body of itself. >> >> As told Anthony, I think that Spinoza's "idea of the idea" is pretty >> important for Vygotsky. Just to take an example, when Vygotsky argues (in >> Chapter Six of T&S and also in his lecture on School Age, which I am >> currently translating for Volume Two of the Pedological Works) that the >> reason why the child's other functions have become intellectualized but >> intellect as such remains unintellectual is that before you can have the >> idea of the idea, you need to have the idea. >> >> Scientific concepts, higher aesthetic concepts, ethical thinking, >> Darwin's tree, the hierarchy of genus and family and species, the powers of >> ten in mathematics--all of these depend on the idea of the idea.. My own >> PhD supervisor, David Butt, points out that every clause ever produced can >> be given a unique and precise "semantic address" (that is, we can >> exhaustively describe it in terms of unique, once-occurent choices at the >> phoneme, word, group, phrase, and clause level). Because each higher rank >> is entirely and only composed of elements from lower ranks, we can describe >> the higher rank as an idea of the idea (a notion of a notion, a concept of >> a concept). >> >> Yanis Varoufakis argues that sometime in late August, in both the UK and >> the USA, capitalism made an important and terrifying transition. Although >> BOTH economies are now in Covid-induced recessions, BOTH are experiencing >> major stock market expansions. This is because, Varoufakis argues, in both >> countries there are enough speculators who believe that there are enough >> speculators who believe that stock prices will increase at least in the >> short term, despite the dismal prospects for shareholders in the long term. >> The idea of the idea has become more powerful than the idea itself. >> >> (As usual, we are at the cutting edge here in Seoul: our real estate >> market has depended entirely on this idea of the idea for years!) >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: >> Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, >> Hasan, and Vygotsky >> >> Some free e-prints today available at: >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!VII56gaMwsLrj0DoQwZYfwj3AalJqZJuw2NANw9SqwmRRYZIl8KUkthtH1Cj_4jFQjiF3g$ >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works >> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VII56gaMwsLrj0DoQwZYfwj3AalJqZJuw2NANw9SqwmRRYZIl8KUkthtH1Cj_4jlkqTNTw$ >> >> >> >> > > -- > J. Gregory McVerry, PhD > Assistant Professor > Southern Connecticut State University > twitter: jgmac1106 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200904/264a5b51/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Sep 7 12:03:54 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2020 13:03:54 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Andy Blunden on unit of analysis and Huw on cognition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gente, It?s been more than a week since Anthony linked us to his interview of Andy Blunden. I?ve been doing some slow listening and thinking about it. Hands down the best. through best in Andy?s talk is perizhvanie, both individual and collective. His story about his own moment of empowerment as an engineer was inspiring. But in looking back on his work as a union rep, Andy recalled those who were broken in the work place, sought therapy and finally went on the dole. I assume it is very much the later kind of story that put the fire in the his belly as a lifelong Marxist. A quibble and a modest proposal. I have read more of Andy?s work than that of any other Vygotsky-inspired author, including Vygotsky. Based on my reading of Andy, I think that he has overlooked something in responding to Anthony?s questions: Project as the unit of analysis for the social sciences. Another quibble and modest proposal. Huw, in the second interview with Anthony (the one liked below), asserts that ?cognition is the conscious guiding aspect of activity?. If we can we substitute ?project? for ?activity? and recognize that affect is as much of a guide as intellect for any project, then we bring project and perizhvanie together in making sense of the human project. In communty Henry > On Aug 29, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Anthony Barra wrote: > > "Straddling the Abstract and the Concrete -- with Andy Blunden": > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/ec94eQSSX8E__;!!Mih3wA!SUbgEzB2kpFuBHlsDcjolUgTzwoWawzuKGGYbZ37yGoZdfoLPRqqdQi_8nIZlTBCdwBx3w$ > > "Researcher and chronicler Andy Blunden reflects on his own relationship with Vygotsky, his role and contributions to the Vygotsky-sphere, and some developmental landmarks of his own. (Originally published August 28, 2020) > > Thanks again to Andy. > > > > > On Wednesday, August 26, 2020, Anthony Barra > wrote: > Huw Lloyd is an interesting guy and a gracious conversation partner. > > He recently helped me close some (of the many) gaps in my knowledge and understanding here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/4kspsz__;!!Mih3wA!SUbgEzB2kpFuBHlsDcjolUgTzwoWawzuKGGYbZ37yGoZdfoLPRqqdQi_8nIZlTDfLdXMoQ$ > > Huw's commentary will likely be enjoyable even for fellow experts, who could compare his answers to what their own might be, as well as my questions to what they might've asked. > > I do feel a bit weird pushing my stuff here, but at the same time, enough people have told me in public and private that they enjoy the videos, so I do like sharing them. > > Thanks, > > Anthony > > (audio-only here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/hlspsz__;!!Mih3wA!SUbgEzB2kpFuBHlsDcjolUgTzwoWawzuKGGYbZ37yGoZdfoLPRqqdQi_8nIZlTD8mzlC3w$ ) > > > > -------------------------------------------- > Video description and Timestamps: > Researcher Huw Lloyd, fluent in numerous mental models, is a good explainer of concepts -- including many I was completely unversed in. A few threads run through the entirety of this chat: development, self-awareness, and construing an active orientation to any given situation. > > SECTION 1: Our pathways to Vygotsky > > 0:36 - Reflections on Huw's recent "Vygotsky and Parenting" (https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/ymqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!SUbgEzB2kpFuBHlsDcjolUgTzwoWawzuKGGYbZ37yGoZdfoLPRqqdQi_8nIZlTATrwku0A$ ) > > 1:45 - Pros and cons of taking scholarly shortcuts > > 6:07 - Huw's arrival to Vygotsky, in part through dissatisfaction elsewhere > > SECTION 2: Huw's ideas about Active Orientation > > 16:38 - What is Active Orientation? > > 23:30 - Is Active Orientation a practice? (An exercise in self awareness) > > 31:58 - Active Orientation can be documented (microgenesis research of Huw's) > > SECTION 3: What is Developmental Education? > > 40:37 - A primer on Davydov and Developmental Education > > 46:07 - Empirical thinking vs. Theoretical thinking > > 50:23 - Grokking the material and the History of ideas > > 52:59 - Problems are Good > > 55:40 - An illustrative lesson of Davydov's > > 1:03:43 - Some key characteristics of developmental education > > 1:07:41 - Crises, construals, and neoformations > > 1:10:20 - The Desert Oak: a developmental TRIZ problem > > SECTION 4: Imagination and Confidence-building > > 1:16:07 - Imagination, flow, and problem-solving > > 1:24:10 - Systems and Design Ideas (TRIZ approach) > > 1:30:22 - Earned, authoritative confidence: Your tempered ideas are become Real > > 1:35:20 - The importance of problem-construal or framing > > 1:48:04 - Problem-creating, -solving, and -construing > > 1:53:51 - This is rich, highly concentrated material (Foundational, generative, "unfoldable" concepts) > > 1:55:27 - Notational vs. developmental education (and epistemology) > > 1:57:10 - Final two questions (adult-development & advice for problem-designers) > > 2:06:20 - Complex vs. complicated (and self-regulation and distance learning) > > 2:09:46 - An idea for lunch (as promised: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/bvqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!SUbgEzB2kpFuBHlsDcjolUgTzwoWawzuKGGYbZ37yGoZdfoLPRqqdQi_8nIZlTCQK5QJZA$ ) > > References: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/5vqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!SUbgEzB2kpFuBHlsDcjolUgTzwoWawzuKGGYbZ37yGoZdfoLPRqqdQi_8nIZlTAZvsUaew$ - "A Study of Active Orientation" (brief introduction) > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/2xqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!SUbgEzB2kpFuBHlsDcjolUgTzwoWawzuKGGYbZ37yGoZdfoLPRqqdQi_8nIZlTCSHc-zEQ$ - "TRIZ: a Powerful Methodology for Creative Problem Solving" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/dxqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!SUbgEzB2kpFuBHlsDcjolUgTzwoWawzuKGGYbZ37yGoZdfoLPRqqdQi_8nIZlTDvClTb5Q$ - "Going with the Flow: How to Engage Boys (and Girls) in Their Literacy Learning" > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200907/f64ccd1a/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Mon Sep 7 12:33:24 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2020 20:33:24 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Andy Blunden on unit of analysis and Huw on cognition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Henry, The "quibbles" go with the medium, my friend. As I mention by way of caveat, for rigour, the texts are a more reliable resource. What you get from discussion is what is at the forefront of one's mind, along with indications of how we think about things etc. However, you are correct to want more from them, it is just that that more is up to you. :) Yes, feeling can guide too. And one could include perception in cognition if one wanted to. You would need to take care about perezhivanie and emotion, because it would depend upon whether intellectual functions and intentionality have conscious direction over emotions as to whether you can base your unit of mind (or similar) on emotional experience. See section 8 of this draft paper for some pointers: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/42233036/A_Study_of_Active_Orientation_Part_1_A_Perspective_Based_Theory_of_Cognitive_Development__;!!Mih3wA!QWRS8-P01idsykducQeyn281VOQJmQ9tvwdnPorVZ9kxz5Ao7EBnaNDnr-UUmteFA8WGkA$ Cheerio, Huw On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 20:05, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Gente, > It?s been more than a week since Anthony linked us to his interview of > Andy Blunden. I?ve been doing some slow listening and thinking about it. > > Hands down the best. through best in Andy?s talk is perizhvanie, both > individual and collective. His story about his own moment of empowerment as > an engineer was inspiring. But in looking back on his work as a union rep, > Andy recalled those who were broken in the work place, sought therapy and > finally went on the dole. I assume it is very much the later kind of story > that put the fire in the his belly as a lifelong Marxist. > > A quibble and a modest proposal. I have read more of Andy?s work than that > of any other Vygotsky-inspired author, including Vygotsky. Based on my > reading of Andy, I think that he has overlooked something in responding to > Anthony?s questions: *Project as the unit of analysis for the social > sciences.* > > Another quibble and modest proposal. Huw, in the second interview with > Anthony (the one liked below), asserts that ?cognition is the conscious > guiding aspect of activity?. If we can we substitute ?project? for > ?activity? and recognize that affect is as much of a guide as intellect for > any project, then we bring project and perizhvanie together in making sense > of the human project. > > In communty > Henry > > > > On Aug 29, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Anthony Barra > wrote: > > "Straddling the Abstract and the Concrete -- with Andy Blunden": > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/ec94eQSSX8E__;!!Mih3wA!QWRS8-P01idsykducQeyn281VOQJmQ9tvwdnPorVZ9kxz5Ao7EBnaNDnr-UUmtevwQXhbA$ > > > "Researcher and chronicler Andy Blunden reflects on his own relationship > with Vygotsky, his role and contributions to the Vygotsky-sphere, and some > developmental landmarks of his own. (Originally published August 28, 2020) > Thanks again to Andy. > > > > > On Wednesday, August 26, 2020, Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Huw Lloyd is an interesting guy and a gracious conversation partner. >> >> He recently helped me close some (of the many) gaps in my knowledge and >> understanding here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/4kspsz__;!!Mih3wA!QWRS8-P01idsykducQeyn281VOQJmQ9tvwdnPorVZ9kxz5Ao7EBnaNDnr-UUmtfeJau3-A$ >> >> >> Huw's commentary will likely be enjoyable even for fellow experts, who >> could compare his answers to what their own might be, as well as my >> questions to what they might've asked. >> >> I do feel a bit weird pushing my stuff here, but at the same time, enough >> people have told me in public and private that they enjoy the videos, so I >> do like sharing them. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Anthony >> >> (audio-only here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/hlspsz__;!!Mih3wA!QWRS8-P01idsykducQeyn281VOQJmQ9tvwdnPorVZ9kxz5Ao7EBnaNDnr-UUmtcbAd8MEw$ >> >> ) >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> Video description and Timestamps: >> >> Researcher Huw Lloyd, fluent in numerous mental models, is a good >> explainer of concepts -- including many I was completely unversed in. A few >> threads run through the entirety of this chat: development, self-awareness, >> and construing an active orientation to any given situation. >> >> SECTION 1: Our pathways to Vygotsky >> >> 0:36 - Reflections on Huw's recent "Vygotsky and Parenting" ( >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/ymqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!QWRS8-P01idsykducQeyn281VOQJmQ9tvwdnPorVZ9kxz5Ao7EBnaNDnr-UUmtd_kZUt8g$ >> >> ) >> >> 1:45 - Pros and cons of taking scholarly shortcuts >> >> 6:07 - Huw's arrival to Vygotsky, in part through dissatisfaction >> elsewhere >> >> SECTION 2: Huw's ideas about Active Orientation >> >> 16:38 - What is Active Orientation? >> >> 23:30 - Is Active Orientation a practice? (An exercise in self >> awareness) >> >> 31:58 - Active Orientation can be documented (microgenesis research of >> Huw's) >> >> SECTION 3: What is Developmental Education? >> >> 40:37 - A primer on Davydov and Developmental Education >> >> 46:07 - Empirical thinking vs. Theoretical thinking >> >> 50:23 - Grokking the material and the History of ideas >> >> 52:59 - Problems are Good >> >> 55:40 - An illustrative lesson of Davydov's >> >> 1:03:43 - Some key characteristics of developmental education >> >> 1:07:41 - Crises, construals, and neoformations >> >> 1:10:20 - The Desert Oak: a developmental TRIZ problem >> >> SECTION 4: Imagination and Confidence-building >> >> 1:16:07 - Imagination, flow, and problem-solving >> >> 1:24:10 - Systems and Design Ideas (TRIZ approach) >> >> 1:30:22 - Earned, authoritative confidence: Your tempered ideas are >> become Real >> >> 1:35:20 - The importance of problem-construal or framing >> >> 1:48:04 - Problem-creating, -solving, and -construing >> >> 1:53:51 - This is rich, highly concentrated material (Foundational, >> generative, "unfoldable" concepts) >> >> 1:55:27 - Notational vs. developmental education (and epistemology) >> >> 1:57:10 - Final two questions (adult-development & advice for >> problem-designers) >> >> 2:06:20 - Complex vs. complicated (and self-regulation and distance >> learning) >> >> 2:09:46 - An idea for lunch (as promised: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/bvqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!QWRS8-P01idsykducQeyn281VOQJmQ9tvwdnPorVZ9kxz5Ao7EBnaNDnr-UUmtfGZJHlIA$ >> ) >> >> >> References: >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/5vqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!QWRS8-P01idsykducQeyn281VOQJmQ9tvwdnPorVZ9kxz5Ao7EBnaNDnr-UUmtdncAhtJQ$ >> >> - "A Study of Active Orientation" (brief introduction) >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/2xqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!QWRS8-P01idsykducQeyn281VOQJmQ9tvwdnPorVZ9kxz5Ao7EBnaNDnr-UUmteTKHVRmw$ >> >> - "TRIZ: a Powerful Methodology for Creative Problem Solving" >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/dxqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!QWRS8-P01idsykducQeyn281VOQJmQ9tvwdnPorVZ9kxz5Ao7EBnaNDnr-UUmtdyGtRInw$ >> >> - "Going with the Flow: How to Engage Boys (and Girls) in Their Literacy >> Learning" >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200907/f6a794a3/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Sep 7 12:54:34 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2020 13:54:34 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Andy Blunden on unit of analysis and Huw on cognition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Huw, Goodness, for such a slow talker, you think and write quickly! I?m slow all around. Well, I can talk fast, but without rigour and reference. I take your point that spoken language lacks the rigour and referencing of written language, but it has more affect. I love books on tape when read by a good reader. I enjoy your spoken delivery, because I get to think as you speak. I have read only the intro to your draft and it promises to be a very interesting read. If dense and difficult. Maybe I will finally understand Peirce! Bateson might help me, assuming I understand Bateson. Pask, Bedny and Waddington are new to me. Different perspective taking is probably how you understand any one person?s perspective? We?ll see. Salud henry > On Sep 7, 2020, at 1:33 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > Hello Henry, > > The "quibbles" go with the medium, my friend. As I mention by way of caveat, for rigour, the texts are a more reliable resource. What you get from discussion is what is at the forefront of one's mind, along with indications of how we think about things etc. However, you are correct to want more from them, it is just that that more is up to you. :) > > Yes, feeling can guide too. And one could include perception in cognition if one wanted to. You would need to take care about perezhivanie and emotion, because it would depend upon whether intellectual functions and intentionality have conscious direction over emotions as to whether you can base your unit of mind (or similar) on emotional experience. See section 8 of this draft paper for some pointers: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/42233036/A_Study_of_Active_Orientation_Part_1_A_Perspective_Based_Theory_of_Cognitive_Development__;!!Mih3wA!QkhKdkNE2KwU4qwlJRBe4EF6IGSpwnYYjTcSKMTm2HIsubxVMl-gs1A4J3iBd3zTdKG-Fg$ > > Cheerio, > Huw > > > On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 20:05, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > Gente, > It?s been more than a week since Anthony linked us to his interview of Andy Blunden. I?ve been doing some slow listening and thinking about it. > > Hands down the best. through best in Andy?s talk is perizhvanie, both individual and collective. His story about his own moment of empowerment as an engineer was inspiring. But in looking back on his work as a union rep, Andy recalled those who were broken in the work place, sought therapy and finally went on the dole. I assume it is very much the later kind of story that put the fire in the his belly as a lifelong Marxist. > > A quibble and a modest proposal. I have read more of Andy?s work than that of any other Vygotsky-inspired author, including Vygotsky. Based on my reading of Andy, I think that he has overlooked something in responding to Anthony?s questions: Project as the unit of analysis for the social sciences. > > Another quibble and modest proposal. Huw, in the second interview with Anthony (the one liked below), asserts that ?cognition is the conscious guiding aspect of activity?. If we can we substitute ?project? for ?activity? and recognize that affect is as much of a guide as intellect for any project, then we bring project and perizhvanie together in making sense of the human project. > > In communty > Henry > > > >> On Aug 29, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Anthony Barra > wrote: >> >> "Straddling the Abstract and the Concrete -- with Andy Blunden": >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/ec94eQSSX8E__;!!Mih3wA!QkhKdkNE2KwU4qwlJRBe4EF6IGSpwnYYjTcSKMTm2HIsubxVMl-gs1A4J3iBd3ydC8IExw$ >> >> "Researcher and chronicler Andy Blunden reflects on his own relationship with Vygotsky, his role and contributions to the Vygotsky-sphere, and some developmental landmarks of his own. (Originally published August 28, 2020) >> >> Thanks again to Andy. >> >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, August 26, 2020, Anthony Barra > wrote: >> Huw Lloyd is an interesting guy and a gracious conversation partner. >> >> He recently helped me close some (of the many) gaps in my knowledge and understanding here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/4kspsz__;!!Mih3wA!QkhKdkNE2KwU4qwlJRBe4EF6IGSpwnYYjTcSKMTm2HIsubxVMl-gs1A4J3iBd3wwxCeXGw$ >> >> Huw's commentary will likely be enjoyable even for fellow experts, who could compare his answers to what their own might be, as well as my questions to what they might've asked. >> >> I do feel a bit weird pushing my stuff here, but at the same time, enough people have told me in public and private that they enjoy the videos, so I do like sharing them. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Anthony >> >> (audio-only here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/hlspsz__;!!Mih3wA!QkhKdkNE2KwU4qwlJRBe4EF6IGSpwnYYjTcSKMTm2HIsubxVMl-gs1A4J3iBd3xbBuZ6-A$ ) >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> Video description and Timestamps: >> Researcher Huw Lloyd, fluent in numerous mental models, is a good explainer of concepts -- including many I was completely unversed in. A few threads run through the entirety of this chat: development, self-awareness, and construing an active orientation to any given situation. >> >> SECTION 1: Our pathways to Vygotsky >> >> 0:36 - Reflections on Huw's recent "Vygotsky and Parenting" (https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/ymqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!QkhKdkNE2KwU4qwlJRBe4EF6IGSpwnYYjTcSKMTm2HIsubxVMl-gs1A4J3iBd3z0jc-wUQ$ ) >> >> 1:45 - Pros and cons of taking scholarly shortcuts >> >> 6:07 - Huw's arrival to Vygotsky, in part through dissatisfaction elsewhere >> >> SECTION 2: Huw's ideas about Active Orientation >> >> 16:38 - What is Active Orientation? >> >> 23:30 - Is Active Orientation a practice? (An exercise in self awareness) >> >> 31:58 - Active Orientation can be documented (microgenesis research of Huw's) >> >> SECTION 3: What is Developmental Education? >> >> 40:37 - A primer on Davydov and Developmental Education >> >> 46:07 - Empirical thinking vs. Theoretical thinking >> >> 50:23 - Grokking the material and the History of ideas >> >> 52:59 - Problems are Good >> >> 55:40 - An illustrative lesson of Davydov's >> >> 1:03:43 - Some key characteristics of developmental education >> >> 1:07:41 - Crises, construals, and neoformations >> >> 1:10:20 - The Desert Oak: a developmental TRIZ problem >> >> SECTION 4: Imagination and Confidence-building >> >> 1:16:07 - Imagination, flow, and problem-solving >> >> 1:24:10 - Systems and Design Ideas (TRIZ approach) >> >> 1:30:22 - Earned, authoritative confidence: Your tempered ideas are become Real >> >> 1:35:20 - The importance of problem-construal or framing >> >> 1:48:04 - Problem-creating, -solving, and -construing >> >> 1:53:51 - This is rich, highly concentrated material (Foundational, generative, "unfoldable" concepts) >> >> 1:55:27 - Notational vs. developmental education (and epistemology) >> >> 1:57:10 - Final two questions (adult-development & advice for problem-designers) >> >> 2:06:20 - Complex vs. complicated (and self-regulation and distance learning) >> >> 2:09:46 - An idea for lunch (as promised: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/bvqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!QkhKdkNE2KwU4qwlJRBe4EF6IGSpwnYYjTcSKMTm2HIsubxVMl-gs1A4J3iBd3x_Qvdt1A$ ) >> >> References: >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/5vqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!QkhKdkNE2KwU4qwlJRBe4EF6IGSpwnYYjTcSKMTm2HIsubxVMl-gs1A4J3iBd3xHLeU1eg$ - "A Study of Active Orientation" (brief introduction) >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/2xqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!QkhKdkNE2KwU4qwlJRBe4EF6IGSpwnYYjTcSKMTm2HIsubxVMl-gs1A4J3iBd3zr4vtSgQ$ - "TRIZ: a Powerful Methodology for Creative Problem Solving" >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/dxqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!QkhKdkNE2KwU4qwlJRBe4EF6IGSpwnYYjTcSKMTm2HIsubxVMl-gs1A4J3iBd3yHwpV_Fg$ - "Going with the Flow: How to Engage Boys (and Girls) in Their Literacy Learning" >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200907/a0858fe6/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Mon Sep 7 13:04:39 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2020 21:04:39 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Andy Blunden on unit of analysis and Huw on cognition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It was a nicely timed relaxation break. :) I think you can read section 8 without the other aspects. The whole paper summarises much of my insight at the time, and certainly could help with comprehension. You'd need to go beyond Vygotsky to understand the conceptions, because of the gaps and what is not covered etc. Bye, H. On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 20:56, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Huw, > Goodness, for such a slow talker, you think and write quickly! I?m slow > all around. Well, I can talk fast, but without rigour and reference. I take > your point that spoken language lacks the rigour and referencing of written > language, but it has more affect. I love books on tape when read by a good > reader. I enjoy your spoken delivery, because I get to think as you speak. > I have read only the intro to your draft and it promises to be a very > interesting read. If dense and difficult. Maybe I will finally understand > Peirce! Bateson might help me, assuming I understand Bateson. Pask, Bedny > and Waddington are new to me. Different perspective taking is probably how > you understand any one person?s perspective? We?ll see. > Salud > henry > > > On Sep 7, 2020, at 1:33 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > Hello Henry, > > The "quibbles" go with the medium, my friend. As I mention by way of > caveat, for rigour, the texts are a more reliable resource. What you get > from discussion is what is at the forefront of one's mind, along with > indications of how we think about things etc. However, you are correct to > want more from them, it is just that that more is up to you. :) > > Yes, feeling can guide too. And one could include perception in cognition > if one wanted to. You would need to take care about perezhivanie and > emotion, because it would depend upon whether intellectual functions and > intentionality have conscious direction over emotions as to whether you can > base your unit of mind (or similar) on emotional experience. See section 8 > of this draft paper for some pointers: > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/42233036/A_Study_of_Active_Orientation_Part_1_A_Perspective_Based_Theory_of_Cognitive_Development__;!!Mih3wA!UJZ_AqxOzD79-HFogcTarq8DQfUQf4dMd81WVI4VpEtQJohTqVkXchJBH0_hc5KFocHk2w$ > > > Cheerio, > Huw > > > On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 20:05, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Gente, >> It?s been more than a week since Anthony linked us to his interview of >> Andy Blunden. I?ve been doing some slow listening and thinking about it. >> >> Hands down the best. through best in Andy?s talk is perizhvanie, both >> individual and collective. His story about his own moment of empowerment as >> an engineer was inspiring. But in looking back on his work as a union rep, >> Andy recalled those who were broken in the work place, sought therapy and >> finally went on the dole. I assume it is very much the later kind of story >> that put the fire in the his belly as a lifelong Marxist. >> >> A quibble and a modest proposal. I have read more of Andy?s work than >> that of any other Vygotsky-inspired author, including Vygotsky. Based on my >> reading of Andy, I think that he has overlooked something in responding to >> Anthony?s questions: *Project as the unit of analysis for the social >> sciences.* >> >> Another quibble and modest proposal. Huw, in the second interview with >> Anthony (the one liked below), asserts that ?cognition is the conscious >> guiding aspect of activity?. If we can we substitute ?project? for >> ?activity? and recognize that affect is as much of a guide as intellect for >> any project, then we bring project and perizhvanie together in making sense >> of the human project. >> >> In communty >> Henry >> >> >> >> On Aug 29, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >> "Straddling the Abstract and the Concrete -- with Andy Blunden": >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/ec94eQSSX8E__;!!Mih3wA!UJZ_AqxOzD79-HFogcTarq8DQfUQf4dMd81WVI4VpEtQJohTqVkXchJBH0_hc5KUutX9xQ$ >> >> >> "Researcher and chronicler Andy Blunden reflects on his own relationship >> with Vygotsky, his role and contributions to the Vygotsky-sphere, and some >> developmental landmarks of his own. (Originally published August 28, 2020) >> Thanks again to Andy. >> >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, August 26, 2020, Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >>> Huw Lloyd is an interesting guy and a gracious conversation partner. >>> >>> He recently helped me close some (of the many) gaps in my knowledge and >>> understanding here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/4kspsz__;!!Mih3wA!UJZ_AqxOzD79-HFogcTarq8DQfUQf4dMd81WVI4VpEtQJohTqVkXchJBH0_hc5KcoMVnmQ$ >>> >>> >>> Huw's commentary will likely be enjoyable even for fellow experts, who >>> could compare his answers to what their own might be, as well as my >>> questions to what they might've asked. >>> >>> I do feel a bit weird pushing my stuff here, but at the same time, >>> enough people have told me in public and private that they enjoy the >>> videos, so I do like sharing them. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> (audio-only here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/hlspsz__;!!Mih3wA!UJZ_AqxOzD79-HFogcTarq8DQfUQf4dMd81WVI4VpEtQJohTqVkXchJBH0_hc5IXYg8IhA$ >>> >>> ) >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> Video description and Timestamps: >>> >>> Researcher Huw Lloyd, fluent in numerous mental models, is a good >>> explainer of concepts -- including many I was completely unversed in. A few >>> threads run through the entirety of this chat: development, self-awareness, >>> and construing an active orientation to any given situation. >>> >>> SECTION 1: Our pathways to Vygotsky >>> >>> 0:36 - Reflections on Huw's recent "Vygotsky and Parenting" ( >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/ymqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!UJZ_AqxOzD79-HFogcTarq8DQfUQf4dMd81WVI4VpEtQJohTqVkXchJBH0_hc5LB-yBX3A$ >>> >>> ) >>> >>> 1:45 - Pros and cons of taking scholarly shortcuts >>> >>> 6:07 - Huw's arrival to Vygotsky, in part through dissatisfaction >>> elsewhere >>> >>> SECTION 2: Huw's ideas about Active Orientation >>> >>> 16:38 - What is Active Orientation? >>> >>> 23:30 - Is Active Orientation a practice? (An exercise in self >>> awareness) >>> >>> 31:58 - Active Orientation can be documented (microgenesis research of >>> Huw's) >>> >>> SECTION 3: What is Developmental Education? >>> >>> 40:37 - A primer on Davydov and Developmental Education >>> >>> 46:07 - Empirical thinking vs. Theoretical thinking >>> >>> 50:23 - Grokking the material and the History of ideas >>> >>> 52:59 - Problems are Good >>> >>> 55:40 - An illustrative lesson of Davydov's >>> >>> 1:03:43 - Some key characteristics of developmental education >>> >>> 1:07:41 - Crises, construals, and neoformations >>> >>> 1:10:20 - The Desert Oak: a developmental TRIZ problem >>> >>> SECTION 4: Imagination and Confidence-building >>> >>> 1:16:07 - Imagination, flow, and problem-solving >>> >>> 1:24:10 - Systems and Design Ideas (TRIZ approach) >>> >>> 1:30:22 - Earned, authoritative confidence: Your tempered ideas are >>> become Real >>> >>> 1:35:20 - The importance of problem-construal or framing >>> >>> 1:48:04 - Problem-creating, -solving, and -construing >>> >>> 1:53:51 - This is rich, highly concentrated material (Foundational, >>> generative, "unfoldable" concepts) >>> >>> 1:55:27 - Notational vs. developmental education (and epistemology) >>> >>> 1:57:10 - Final two questions (adult-development & advice for >>> problem-designers) >>> >>> 2:06:20 - Complex vs. complicated (and self-regulation and distance >>> learning) >>> >>> 2:09:46 - An idea for lunch (as promised: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/bvqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!UJZ_AqxOzD79-HFogcTarq8DQfUQf4dMd81WVI4VpEtQJohTqVkXchJBH0_hc5JsqtgMBw$ >>> ) >>> >>> >>> References: >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/5vqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!UJZ_AqxOzD79-HFogcTarq8DQfUQf4dMd81WVI4VpEtQJohTqVkXchJBH0_hc5JOOFEziQ$ >>> >>> - "A Study of Active Orientation" (brief introduction) >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/2xqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!UJZ_AqxOzD79-HFogcTarq8DQfUQf4dMd81WVI4VpEtQJohTqVkXchJBH0_hc5LsbzeONA$ >>> >>> - "TRIZ: a Powerful Methodology for Creative Problem Solving" >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/dxqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!UJZ_AqxOzD79-HFogcTarq8DQfUQf4dMd81WVI4VpEtQJohTqVkXchJBH0_hc5KfZ7mQCg$ >>> >>> - "Going with the Flow: How to Engage Boys (and Girls) in Their Literacy >>> Learning" >>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200907/1faf2e64/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Mon Sep 7 17:20:45 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 10:20:45 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Andy Blunden on unit of analysis and Huw on cognition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1522e47a-1c7d-5505-e5de-167e3b603103@marxists.org> Goodness! Thank you for your kind words, Henry. I feel the weight of responsibility on my shoulders. The thing about an interview is that it is not a lecture. The Q&A format means that it is the unity of two minds. Evidently, "project" maybe important to me because of my interest in social theory but that is not where Anthony's and my mind meet, I guess. The thing about "project" is that it avoids the ambiguity of "activity" - do you mean it like "there's a lot of activity on this list" or "this activity is aimed at making CHAT accessible." Mass noun or countable noun? Plus I avoid all the baggage carried by the word "activity" which leads to people telling me that I don't understand what "activity" means. Plus "project" really emphasises what is implicit in "an activity" - that it is driven by an unfolding aim and has the kind of subjectivity not normally imputed to an activity, or a group. I don't believe that projects are guided by "cognition," or at least that this is a useful lens to understand activity. "Cognition" is something we analysts abstract from activity. In John Dewey's words: ?an experience? is an ?original unity?, not a combination: ?The existence of this unity is constituted by a single/quality/ that pervades the entire experience in spite of the variation of its constituent parts. This unity is neither emotional, practical, nor intellectual, for these terms name distinctions that reflection can make within it,? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 8/09/2020 5:03 am, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Gente, > It?s been more than a week since Anthony linked us to his > interview of Andy Blunden. I?ve been doing some slow > listening and thinking about it. > > Hands down the best. through best in Andy?s talk is > perizhvanie, both individual and collective. His story > about his own moment of empowerment as an engineer was > inspiring. But in looking back on his work as a union rep, > Andy recalled those who were broken in the work place, > sought therapy and finally went on the dole. I assume it > is very much the later kind of story that put the fire in > the his belly as a lifelong Marxist. > > A quibble and a modest proposal. I have read more of > Andy?s work than that of any other Vygotsky-inspired > author, including Vygotsky. Based on my reading of Andy, I > think that he has overlooked something in responding to > Anthony?s questions: /Project as the unit of analysis for > the social sciences./ > > Another quibble and modest proposal. Huw, in the second > interview with Anthony (the one liked below), asserts that > ?cognition is the conscious guiding aspect of activity?. > If we can we substitute ?project? for ?activity? and > recognize that affect is as much of a guide as intellect > for any project, then we bring project and perizhivanie > together in making sense of the human project. > > In communty > Henry > > > >> On Aug 29, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Anthony Barra >> > > wrote: >> >> "Straddling the Abstract and the Concrete -- with Andy >> Blunden": >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/ec94eQSSX8E__;!!Mih3wA!Vy_0-fM1JnXDSWVjL-73cISms5hBR8csLKVmw2-QzFNJ3NCM5QBlQOrW0WMFrJ3wIULgPA$ >> >> >> "Researcher and chronicler Andy Blunden reflects on his >> own relationship with Vygotsky, his role and >> contributions to the Vygotsky-sphere, and some >> developmental landmarks of his own. (Originally published >> August 28, 2020) >> Thanks again to Andy. >> >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, August 26, 2020, Anthony Barra >> > > wrote: >> >> Huw Lloyd is an interesting guy and a gracious >> conversation partner. >> >> He recently helped me close some (of the many) gaps >> in my knowledge and understanding here: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/4kspsz__;!!Mih3wA!Vy_0-fM1JnXDSWVjL-73cISms5hBR8csLKVmw2-QzFNJ3NCM5QBlQOrW0WMFrJ0F_cftPw$ >> >> >> >> Huw's commentary will likely be enjoyable even for >> fellow experts, who could compare his answers to what >> their own might be, as well as my questions to what >> they might've asked. >> >> I do feel a bit weird pushing my stuff here, but at >> the same time, enough people have told me in public >> and private that they enjoy the videos, so I do like >> sharing them. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Anthony >> >> (audio-only here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/hlspsz__;!!Mih3wA!Vy_0-fM1JnXDSWVjL-73cISms5hBR8csLKVmw2-QzFNJ3NCM5QBlQOrW0WMFrJ3BxxvkGw$ >> ) >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> Video description and Timestamps: >> >> Researcher Huw Lloyd, fluent in numerous mental >> models, is a good explainer of concepts -- including >> many I was completely unversed in. A few threads run >> through the entirety of this chat: development, >> self-awareness, and construing an active orientation >> to any given situation. >> >> SECTION 1: Our pathways to Vygotsky >> >> 0:36 - Reflections on Huw's recent "Vygotsky and >> Parenting" ?(https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/ymqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!Vy_0-fM1JnXDSWVjL-73cISms5hBR8csLKVmw2-QzFNJ3NCM5QBlQOrW0WMFrJ1ofyxFuA$ >> ) >> >> >> 1:45 - Pros and cons of taking scholarly shortcuts >> >> 6:07 - Huw's arrival to Vygotsky, in part through >> dissatisfaction ?elsewhere >> >> SECTION 2: Huw's ideas about Active Orientation >> >> 16:38 - What is Active Orientation? >> >> 23:30 - Is Active Orientation a practice? (An >> exercise in self ?awareness) >> >> 31:58 - Active Orientation can be documented >> (microgenesis research of ?Huw's) >> >> SECTION 3: What is Developmental Education? >> >> 40:37 - A primer on Davydov and Developmental Education >> >> 46:07 - Empirical thinking vs. Theoretical thinking >> >> 50:23 - Grokking the material and the History of ideas >> >> 52:59 - Problems are Good >> >> 55:40 - An illustrative lesson of Davydov's >> >> 1:03:43 - Some key characteristics of developmental >> education >> >> 1:07:41 - Crises, construals, and neoformations >> >> 1:10:20 - The Desert Oak: a developmental TRIZ problem >> >> SECTION 4: Imagination and Confidence-building >> >> 1:16:07 - Imagination, flow, and problem-solving >> >> 1:24:10 - Systems and Design Ideas (TRIZ approach) >> >> 1:30:22 - Earned, authoritative confidence: Your >> tempered ideas are ?become Real >> >> 1:35:20 - The importance of problem-construal or framing >> >> 1:48:04 - Problem-creating, -solving, and -construing >> >> 1:53:51 - This is rich, highly concentrated material >> (Foundational, generative, "unfoldable" concepts) >> >> 1:55:27 - Notational vs. developmental education (and >> epistemology) >> >> 1:57:10 - Final two questions (adult-development & >> advice for ?problem-designers) >> >> 2:06:20 - Complex vs. complicated (and >> self-regulation and distance ?learning) >> >> 2:09:46 - An idea for lunch (as promised: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/bvqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!Vy_0-fM1JnXDSWVjL-73cISms5hBR8csLKVmw2-QzFNJ3NCM5QBlQOrW0WMFrJ34lDhUig$ >> ) >> >> >> References: >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/5vqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!Vy_0-fM1JnXDSWVjL-73cISms5hBR8csLKVmw2-QzFNJ3NCM5QBlQOrW0WMFrJ31dOqnbA$ >> >> - "A Study of Active Orientation" (brief ?introduction) >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/2xqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!Vy_0-fM1JnXDSWVjL-73cISms5hBR8csLKVmw2-QzFNJ3NCM5QBlQOrW0WMFrJ1_hHl1fw$ >> >> - "TRIZ: a Powerful Methodology for Creative ?Problem >> Solving" >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/dxqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!Vy_0-fM1JnXDSWVjL-73cISms5hBR8csLKVmw2-QzFNJ3NCM5QBlQOrW0WMFrJ3GhqFGOw$ >> >> - "Going with the Flow: How to Engage Boys (and >> ?Girls) in Their Literacy Learning" >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200908/61892f07/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Sep 7 18:09:53 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2020 19:09:53 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Andy Blunden on unit of analysis and Huw on cognition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1978995D-FCFF-4558-90D5-ACDAF12613DB@gmail.com> :) > On Sep 7, 2020, at 2:04 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > It was a nicely timed relaxation break. :) I think you can read section 8 without the other aspects. The whole paper summarises much of my insight at the time, and certainly could help with comprehension. You'd need to go beyond Vygotsky to understand the conceptions, because of the gaps and what is not covered etc. > > Bye, H. > > > > On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 20:56, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > Huw, > Goodness, for such a slow talker, you think and write quickly! I?m slow all around. Well, I can talk fast, but without rigour and reference. I take your point that spoken language lacks the rigour and referencing of written language, but it has more affect. I love books on tape when read by a good reader. I enjoy your spoken delivery, because I get to think as you speak. I have read only the intro to your draft and it promises to be a very interesting read. If dense and difficult. Maybe I will finally understand Peirce! Bateson might help me, assuming I understand Bateson. Pask, Bedny and Waddington are new to me. Different perspective taking is probably how you understand any one person?s perspective? We?ll see. > Salud > henry > > >> On Sep 7, 2020, at 1:33 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: >> >> Hello Henry, >> >> The "quibbles" go with the medium, my friend. As I mention by way of caveat, for rigour, the texts are a more reliable resource. What you get from discussion is what is at the forefront of one's mind, along with indications of how we think about things etc. However, you are correct to want more from them, it is just that that more is up to you. :) >> >> Yes, feeling can guide too. And one could include perception in cognition if one wanted to. You would need to take care about perezhivanie and emotion, because it would depend upon whether intellectual functions and intentionality have conscious direction over emotions as to whether you can base your unit of mind (or similar) on emotional experience. See section 8 of this draft paper for some pointers: >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/42233036/A_Study_of_Active_Orientation_Part_1_A_Perspective_Based_Theory_of_Cognitive_Development__;!!Mih3wA!QtSBgQlJjhZ7LSSoD116PsNgBi86GsaLwvazG-NLx_Z6qICbUE6V8H3ZqlE8kvkf_j3MOg$ >> >> Cheerio, >> Huw >> >> >> On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 20:05, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: >> Gente, >> It?s been more than a week since Anthony linked us to his interview of Andy Blunden. I?ve been doing some slow listening and thinking about it. >> >> Hands down the best. through best in Andy?s talk is perizhvanie, both individual and collective. His story about his own moment of empowerment as an engineer was inspiring. But in looking back on his work as a union rep, Andy recalled those who were broken in the work place, sought therapy and finally went on the dole. I assume it is very much the later kind of story that put the fire in the his belly as a lifelong Marxist. >> >> A quibble and a modest proposal. I have read more of Andy?s work than that of any other Vygotsky-inspired author, including Vygotsky. Based on my reading of Andy, I think that he has overlooked something in responding to Anthony?s questions: Project as the unit of analysis for the social sciences. >> >> Another quibble and modest proposal. Huw, in the second interview with Anthony (the one liked below), asserts that ?cognition is the conscious guiding aspect of activity?. If we can we substitute ?project? for ?activity? and recognize that affect is as much of a guide as intellect for any project, then we bring project and perizhvanie together in making sense of the human project. >> >> In communty >> Henry >> >> >> >>> On Aug 29, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Anthony Barra > wrote: >>> >>> "Straddling the Abstract and the Concrete -- with Andy Blunden": >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/ec94eQSSX8E__;!!Mih3wA!QtSBgQlJjhZ7LSSoD116PsNgBi86GsaLwvazG-NLx_Z6qICbUE6V8H3ZqlE8kvlHQIBUrQ$ >>> >>> "Researcher and chronicler Andy Blunden reflects on his own relationship with Vygotsky, his role and contributions to the Vygotsky-sphere, and some developmental landmarks of his own. (Originally published August 28, 2020) >>> >>> Thanks again to Andy. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, August 26, 2020, Anthony Barra > wrote: >>> Huw Lloyd is an interesting guy and a gracious conversation partner. >>> >>> He recently helped me close some (of the many) gaps in my knowledge and understanding here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/4kspsz__;!!Mih3wA!QtSBgQlJjhZ7LSSoD116PsNgBi86GsaLwvazG-NLx_Z6qICbUE6V8H3ZqlE8kvk8q2gpUg$ >>> >>> Huw's commentary will likely be enjoyable even for fellow experts, who could compare his answers to what their own might be, as well as my questions to what they might've asked. >>> >>> I do feel a bit weird pushing my stuff here, but at the same time, enough people have told me in public and private that they enjoy the videos, so I do like sharing them. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> (audio-only here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/hlspsz__;!!Mih3wA!QtSBgQlJjhZ7LSSoD116PsNgBi86GsaLwvazG-NLx_Z6qICbUE6V8H3ZqlE8kvmsyq-bVg$ ) >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> Video description and Timestamps: >>> Researcher Huw Lloyd, fluent in numerous mental models, is a good explainer of concepts -- including many I was completely unversed in. A few threads run through the entirety of this chat: development, self-awareness, and construing an active orientation to any given situation. >>> >>> SECTION 1: Our pathways to Vygotsky >>> >>> 0:36 - Reflections on Huw's recent "Vygotsky and Parenting" (https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/ymqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!QtSBgQlJjhZ7LSSoD116PsNgBi86GsaLwvazG-NLx_Z6qICbUE6V8H3ZqlE8kvneVWCN4A$ ) >>> >>> 1:45 - Pros and cons of taking scholarly shortcuts >>> >>> 6:07 - Huw's arrival to Vygotsky, in part through dissatisfaction elsewhere >>> >>> SECTION 2: Huw's ideas about Active Orientation >>> >>> 16:38 - What is Active Orientation? >>> >>> 23:30 - Is Active Orientation a practice? (An exercise in self awareness) >>> >>> 31:58 - Active Orientation can be documented (microgenesis research of Huw's) >>> >>> SECTION 3: What is Developmental Education? >>> >>> 40:37 - A primer on Davydov and Developmental Education >>> >>> 46:07 - Empirical thinking vs. Theoretical thinking >>> >>> 50:23 - Grokking the material and the History of ideas >>> >>> 52:59 - Problems are Good >>> >>> 55:40 - An illustrative lesson of Davydov's >>> >>> 1:03:43 - Some key characteristics of developmental education >>> >>> 1:07:41 - Crises, construals, and neoformations >>> >>> 1:10:20 - The Desert Oak: a developmental TRIZ problem >>> >>> SECTION 4: Imagination and Confidence-building >>> >>> 1:16:07 - Imagination, flow, and problem-solving >>> >>> 1:24:10 - Systems and Design Ideas (TRIZ approach) >>> >>> 1:30:22 - Earned, authoritative confidence: Your tempered ideas are become Real >>> >>> 1:35:20 - The importance of problem-construal or framing >>> >>> 1:48:04 - Problem-creating, -solving, and -construing >>> >>> 1:53:51 - This is rich, highly concentrated material (Foundational, generative, "unfoldable" concepts) >>> >>> 1:55:27 - Notational vs. developmental education (and epistemology) >>> >>> 1:57:10 - Final two questions (adult-development & advice for problem-designers) >>> >>> 2:06:20 - Complex vs. complicated (and self-regulation and distance learning) >>> >>> 2:09:46 - An idea for lunch (as promised: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/bvqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!QtSBgQlJjhZ7LSSoD116PsNgBi86GsaLwvazG-NLx_Z6qICbUE6V8H3ZqlE8kvk2naPQtw$ ) >>> >>> References: >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/5vqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!QtSBgQlJjhZ7LSSoD116PsNgBi86GsaLwvazG-NLx_Z6qICbUE6V8H3ZqlE8kvkzdgycBw$ - "A Study of Active Orientation" (brief introduction) >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/2xqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!QtSBgQlJjhZ7LSSoD116PsNgBi86GsaLwvazG-NLx_Z6qICbUE6V8H3ZqlE8kvmD7tBBKw$ - "TRIZ: a Powerful Methodology for Creative Problem Solving" >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/dxqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!QtSBgQlJjhZ7LSSoD116PsNgBi86GsaLwvazG-NLx_Z6qICbUE6V8H3ZqlE8kvn0boAmWA$ - "Going with the Flow: How to Engage Boys (and Girls) in Their Literacy Learning" >>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200907/6384982a/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Sep 7 19:21:03 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2020 20:21:03 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Andy Blunden on unit of analysis and Huw on cognition In-Reply-To: <1522e47a-1c7d-5505-e5de-167e3b603103@marxists.org> References: <1522e47a-1c7d-5505-e5de-167e3b603103@marxists.org> Message-ID: <10DD39CD-DCD1-4D41-B561-6EE68F39AF14@gmail.com> Andy, I don?t know if you recall, but I introduced myself to you off list in April of 2013, at the encouragement of Natalia Gajdamaschko. I pestered you with questions until you told me to join the chat. I owe you some kindness for putting up with me. Here?s another question: Do Husserl and Dewey resonate at all with one another regarding ?an experience?? Henry > On Sep 7, 2020, at 6:20 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Goodness! Thank you for your kind words, Henry. I feel the weight of responsibility on my shoulders. > > The thing about an interview is that it is not a lecture. The Q&A format means that it is the unity of two minds. Evidently, "project" maybe important to me because of my interest in social theory but that is not where Anthony's and my mind meet, I guess. > > The thing about "project" is that it avoids the ambiguity of "activity" - do you mean it like "there's a lot of activity on this list" or "this activity is aimed at making CHAT accessible." Mass noun or countable noun? Plus I avoid all the baggage carried by the word "activity" which leads to people telling me that I don't understand what "activity" means. Plus "project" really emphasises what is implicit in "an activity" - that it is driven by an unfolding aim and has the kind of subjectivity not normally imputed to an activity, or a group. I don't believe that projects are guided by "cognition," or at least that this is a useful lens to understand activity. "Cognition" is something we analysts abstract from activity. In John Dewey's words: ?an experience? is an ?original unity?, not a combination: ?The existence of this unity is constituted by a single quality that pervades the entire experience in spite of the variation of its constituent parts. This unity is neither emotional, practical, nor intellectual, for these terms name distinctions that reflection can make within it,? > > Andy > > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 8/09/2020 5:03 am, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >> Gente, >> It?s been more than a week since Anthony linked us to his interview of Andy Blunden. I?ve been doing some slow listening and thinking about it. >> >> Hands down the best. through best in Andy?s talk is perizhvanie, both individual and collective. His story about his own moment of empowerment as an engineer was inspiring. But in looking back on his work as a union rep, Andy recalled those who were broken in the work place, sought therapy and finally went on the dole. I assume it is very much the later kind of story that put the fire in the his belly as a lifelong Marxist. >> >> A quibble and a modest proposal. I have read more of Andy?s work than that of any other Vygotsky-inspired author, including Vygotsky. Based on my reading of Andy, I think that he has overlooked something in responding to Anthony?s questions: Project as the unit of analysis for the social sciences. >> >> Another quibble and modest proposal. Huw, in the second interview with Anthony (the one liked below), asserts that ?cognition is the conscious guiding aspect of activity?. If we can we substitute ?project? for ?activity? and recognize that affect is as much of a guide as intellect for any project, then we bring project and perizhivanie together in making sense of the human project. >> >> In communty >> Henry >> >> >> >>> On Aug 29, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Anthony Barra > wrote: >>> >>> "Straddling the Abstract and the Concrete -- with Andy Blunden": >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/ec94eQSSX8E__;!!Mih3wA!Q-FOypuQ50Fs6KMfRXZJGvbmXGi9AtHM3lnhCTZBnGDMeBwLYmuvCNi1q7slCyp6RYKHhg$ >>> >>> "Researcher and chronicler Andy Blunden reflects on his own relationship with Vygotsky, his role and contributions to the Vygotsky-sphere, and some developmental landmarks of his own. (Originally published August 28, 2020) >>> >>> Thanks again to Andy. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, August 26, 2020, Anthony Barra > wrote: >>> Huw Lloyd is an interesting guy and a gracious conversation partner. >>> >>> He recently helped me close some (of the many) gaps in my knowledge and understanding here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/4kspsz__;!!Mih3wA!Q-FOypuQ50Fs6KMfRXZJGvbmXGi9AtHM3lnhCTZBnGDMeBwLYmuvCNi1q7slCyrRBkfyog$ >>> >>> Huw's commentary will likely be enjoyable even for fellow experts, who could compare his answers to what their own might be, as well as my questions to what they might've asked. >>> >>> I do feel a bit weird pushing my stuff here, but at the same time, enough people have told me in public and private that they enjoy the videos, so I do like sharing them. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> (audio-only here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/hlspsz__;!!Mih3wA!Q-FOypuQ50Fs6KMfRXZJGvbmXGi9AtHM3lnhCTZBnGDMeBwLYmuvCNi1q7slCyqvAn40mQ$ ) >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> Video description and Timestamps: >>> Researcher Huw Lloyd, fluent in numerous mental models, is a good explainer of concepts -- including many I was completely unversed in. A few threads run through the entirety of this chat: development, self-awareness, and construing an active orientation to any given situation. >>> >>> SECTION 1: Our pathways to Vygotsky >>> >>> 0:36 - Reflections on Huw's recent "Vygotsky and Parenting" (https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/ymqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!Q-FOypuQ50Fs6KMfRXZJGvbmXGi9AtHM3lnhCTZBnGDMeBwLYmuvCNi1q7slCypunBtHwA$ ) >>> >>> 1:45 - Pros and cons of taking scholarly shortcuts >>> >>> 6:07 - Huw's arrival to Vygotsky, in part through dissatisfaction elsewhere >>> >>> SECTION 2: Huw's ideas about Active Orientation >>> >>> 16:38 - What is Active Orientation? >>> >>> 23:30 - Is Active Orientation a practice? (An exercise in self awareness) >>> >>> 31:58 - Active Orientation can be documented (microgenesis research of Huw's) >>> >>> SECTION 3: What is Developmental Education? >>> >>> 40:37 - A primer on Davydov and Developmental Education >>> >>> 46:07 - Empirical thinking vs. Theoretical thinking >>> >>> 50:23 - Grokking the material and the History of ideas >>> >>> 52:59 - Problems are Good >>> >>> 55:40 - An illustrative lesson of Davydov's >>> >>> 1:03:43 - Some key characteristics of developmental education >>> >>> 1:07:41 - Crises, construals, and neoformations >>> >>> 1:10:20 - The Desert Oak: a developmental TRIZ problem >>> >>> SECTION 4: Imagination and Confidence-building >>> >>> 1:16:07 - Imagination, flow, and problem-solving >>> >>> 1:24:10 - Systems and Design Ideas (TRIZ approach) >>> >>> 1:30:22 - Earned, authoritative confidence: Your tempered ideas are become Real >>> >>> 1:35:20 - The importance of problem-construal or framing >>> >>> 1:48:04 - Problem-creating, -solving, and -construing >>> >>> 1:53:51 - This is rich, highly concentrated material (Foundational, generative, "unfoldable" concepts) >>> >>> 1:55:27 - Notational vs. developmental education (and epistemology) >>> >>> 1:57:10 - Final two questions (adult-development & advice for problem-designers) >>> >>> 2:06:20 - Complex vs. complicated (and self-regulation and distance learning) >>> >>> 2:09:46 - An idea for lunch (as promised: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/bvqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!Q-FOypuQ50Fs6KMfRXZJGvbmXGi9AtHM3lnhCTZBnGDMeBwLYmuvCNi1q7slCyr93um2Lw$ ) >>> >>> References: >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/5vqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!Q-FOypuQ50Fs6KMfRXZJGvbmXGi9AtHM3lnhCTZBnGDMeBwLYmuvCNi1q7slCyoYeLAIMg$ - "A Study of Active Orientation" (brief introduction) >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/2xqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!Q-FOypuQ50Fs6KMfRXZJGvbmXGi9AtHM3lnhCTZBnGDMeBwLYmuvCNi1q7slCyoIBxk2lw$ - "TRIZ: a Powerful Methodology for Creative Problem Solving" >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/dxqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!Q-FOypuQ50Fs6KMfRXZJGvbmXGi9AtHM3lnhCTZBnGDMeBwLYmuvCNi1q7slCyq4dNHC8w$ - "Going with the Flow: How to Engage Boys (and Girls) in Their Literacy Learning" >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200907/a8657101/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Mon Sep 7 19:53:40 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 12:53:40 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Andy Blunden on unit of analysis and Huw on cognition In-Reply-To: <10DD39CD-DCD1-4D41-B561-6EE68F39AF14@gmail.com> References: <1522e47a-1c7d-5505-e5de-167e3b603103@marxists.org> <10DD39CD-DCD1-4D41-B561-6EE68F39AF14@gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't know Husserl very well, Henry, but from what I have read he is a Phenomenologist, that, is he aims to make a science of the study of pure, subjective thought forms. As such he is completely at odds with Dewey who explained the ?double-barrelled? nature of the concept of ?an experience? in that ?it includes/what/ men do and suffer, /what/ they strive for, love, believe and endure, and /how/ men act and are acted upon, the ways in which they do and suffer, desire and enjoy, see, believe, imagine.? That is, in the well-known and invariably misunderstood maxim of CHAT, an experience is a unity of the person and the environment. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 8/09/2020 12:21 pm, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Andy, > I don?t know if you recall, but I introduced myself to you > off list in April of 2013, at the encouragement of Natalia > Gajdamaschko. I pestered you with questions until you told > me to join the chat. ?I owe you some kindness for putting > up with me. Here?s another question: Do Husserl and Dewey > resonate at all with one another regarding ?an experience?? > Henry > > >> On Sep 7, 2020, at 6:20 PM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >> >> Goodness! Thank you for your kind words, Henry. I feel >> the weight of responsibility on my shoulders. >> >> The thing about an interview is that it is not a lecture. >> The Q&A format means that it is the unity of two minds. >> Evidently, "project" maybe important to me because of my >> interest in social theory but that is not where Anthony's >> and my mind meet, I guess. >> >> The thing about "project" is that it avoids the ambiguity >> of "activity" - do you mean it like "there's a lot of >> activity on this list" or "this activity is aimed at >> making CHAT accessible." Mass noun or countable noun? >> Plus I avoid all the baggage carried by the word >> "activity" which leads to people telling me that I don't >> understand what "activity" means. Plus "project" really >> emphasises what is implicit in "an activity" - that it is >> driven by an unfolding aim and has the kind of >> subjectivity not normally imputed to an activity, or a >> group. I don't believe that projects are guided by >> "cognition," or at least that this is a useful lens to >> understand activity. "Cognition" is something we analysts >> abstract from activity. In John Dewey's words: ?an >> experience? is an ?original unity?, not a combination: >> ?The existence of this unity is constituted by a >> single/quality/ that pervades the entire experience in >> spite of the variation of its constituent parts. This >> unity is neither emotional, practical, nor intellectual, >> for these terms name distinctions that reflection can >> make within it,? >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 8/09/2020 5:03 am, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >>> Gente, >>> It?s been more than a week since Anthony linked us to >>> his interview of Andy Blunden. I?ve been doing some slow >>> listening and thinking about it. >>> >>> Hands down the best. through best in Andy?s talk is >>> perizhvanie, both individual and collective. His story >>> about his own moment of empowerment as an engineer was >>> inspiring. But in looking back on his work as a union >>> rep, Andy recalled those who were broken in the work >>> place, sought therapy and finally went on the dole. I >>> assume it is very much the later kind of story that put >>> the fire in the his belly as a lifelong Marxist. >>> >>> A quibble and a modest proposal. I have read more of >>> Andy?s work than that of any other Vygotsky-inspired >>> author, including Vygotsky. Based on my reading of Andy, >>> I think that he has overlooked something in responding >>> to Anthony?s questions: /Project as the unit of analysis >>> for the social sciences./ >>> >>> Another quibble and modest proposal. Huw, in the second >>> interview with Anthony (the one liked below), asserts >>> that ?cognition is the conscious guiding aspect of >>> activity?. If we can we substitute ?project? for >>> ?activity? and recognize that affect is as much of a >>> guide as intellect for any project, then we bring >>> project and perizhivanie together in making sense of the >>> human project. >>> >>> In communty >>> Henry >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Aug 29, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Anthony Barra >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> "Straddling the Abstract and the Concrete -- with Andy >>>> Blunden": >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/ec94eQSSX8E__;!!Mih3wA!T2IDTz6It4OIif-spsQdY7_CzubvEkE88dGcEmSRsPhg_U3cUrRLFakl8SrSgM_3jMiXAQ$ >>>> >>>> >>>> "Researcher and chronicler Andy Blunden reflects on his >>>> own relationship with Vygotsky, his role and >>>> contributions to the Vygotsky-sphere, and some >>>> developmental landmarks of his own. (Originally >>>> published August 28, 2020) >>>> Thanks again to Andy. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, August 26, 2020, Anthony Barra >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Huw Lloyd is an interesting guy and a gracious >>>> conversation partner. >>>> >>>> He recently helped me close some (of the many) gaps >>>> in my knowledge and understanding here: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/4kspsz__;!!Mih3wA!T2IDTz6It4OIif-spsQdY7_CzubvEkE88dGcEmSRsPhg_U3cUrRLFakl8SrSgM-lXlhidA$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Huw's commentary will likely be enjoyable even for >>>> fellow experts, who could compare his answers to >>>> what their own might be, as well as my questions to >>>> what they might've asked. >>>> >>>> I do feel a bit weird pushing my stuff here, but at >>>> the same time, enough people have told me in public >>>> and private that they enjoy the videos, so I do >>>> like sharing them. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Anthony >>>> >>>> (audio-only here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/hlspsz__;!!Mih3wA!T2IDTz6It4OIif-spsQdY7_CzubvEkE88dGcEmSRsPhg_U3cUrRLFakl8SrSgM-r2n7wNw$ >>>> ) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>> Video description and Timestamps: >>>> >>>> Researcher Huw Lloyd, fluent in numerous mental >>>> models, is a good explainer of concepts -- >>>> including many I was completely unversed in. A few >>>> threads run through the entirety of this chat: >>>> development, self-awareness, and construing an >>>> active orientation to any given situation. >>>> >>>> SECTION 1: Our pathways to Vygotsky >>>> >>>> 0:36 - Reflections on Huw's recent "Vygotsky and >>>> Parenting" ?(https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/ymqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!T2IDTz6It4OIif-spsQdY7_CzubvEkE88dGcEmSRsPhg_U3cUrRLFakl8SrSgM_8RmpxnA$ >>>> ) >>>> >>>> >>>> 1:45 - Pros and cons of taking scholarly shortcuts >>>> >>>> 6:07 - Huw's arrival to Vygotsky, in part through >>>> dissatisfaction ?elsewhere >>>> >>>> SECTION 2: Huw's ideas about Active Orientation >>>> >>>> 16:38 - What is Active Orientation? >>>> >>>> 23:30 - Is Active Orientation a practice? (An >>>> exercise in self ?awareness) >>>> >>>> 31:58 - Active Orientation can be documented >>>> (microgenesis research of ?Huw's) >>>> >>>> SECTION 3: What is Developmental Education? >>>> >>>> 40:37 - A primer on Davydov and Developmental >>>> Education >>>> >>>> 46:07 - Empirical thinking vs. Theoretical thinking >>>> >>>> 50:23 - Grokking the material and the History of ideas >>>> >>>> 52:59 - Problems are Good >>>> >>>> 55:40 - An illustrative lesson of Davydov's >>>> >>>> 1:03:43 - Some key characteristics of developmental >>>> education >>>> >>>> 1:07:41 - Crises, construals, and neoformations >>>> >>>> 1:10:20 - The Desert Oak: a developmental TRIZ problem >>>> >>>> SECTION 4: Imagination and Confidence-building >>>> >>>> 1:16:07 - Imagination, flow, and problem-solving >>>> >>>> 1:24:10 - Systems and Design Ideas (TRIZ approach) >>>> >>>> 1:30:22 - Earned, authoritative confidence: Your >>>> tempered ideas are ?become Real >>>> >>>> 1:35:20 - The importance of problem-construal or >>>> framing >>>> >>>> 1:48:04 - Problem-creating, -solving, and -construing >>>> >>>> 1:53:51 - This is rich, highly concentrated >>>> material (Foundational, generative, "unfoldable" >>>> concepts) >>>> >>>> 1:55:27 - Notational vs. developmental education >>>> (and epistemology) >>>> >>>> 1:57:10 - Final two questions (adult-development & >>>> advice for ?problem-designers) >>>> >>>> 2:06:20 - Complex vs. complicated (and >>>> self-regulation and distance ?learning) >>>> >>>> 2:09:46 - An idea for lunch (as promised: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/bvqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!T2IDTz6It4OIif-spsQdY7_CzubvEkE88dGcEmSRsPhg_U3cUrRLFakl8SrSgM-X5fzDjQ$ >>>> ) >>>> >>>> >>>> References: >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/5vqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!T2IDTz6It4OIif-spsQdY7_CzubvEkE88dGcEmSRsPhg_U3cUrRLFakl8SrSgM-I1b9lfg$ >>>> >>>> - "A Study of Active Orientation" (brief >>>> ?introduction) >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/2xqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!T2IDTz6It4OIif-spsQdY7_CzubvEkE88dGcEmSRsPhg_U3cUrRLFakl8SrSgM-jLRhqFQ$ >>>> >>>> - "TRIZ: a Powerful Methodology for Creative >>>> ?Problem Solving" >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/dxqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!T2IDTz6It4OIif-spsQdY7_CzubvEkE88dGcEmSRsPhg_U3cUrRLFakl8SrSgM9Zj8mN6w$ >>>> >>>> - "Going with the Flow: How to Engage Boys (and >>>> ?Girls) in Their Literacy Learning" >>>> >>>> >>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200908/d8a40ba7/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Sep 7 21:03:17 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2020 22:03:17 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Andy Blunden on unit of analysis and Huw on cognition In-Reply-To: References: <1522e47a-1c7d-5505-e5de-167e3b603103@marxists.org> <10DD39CD-DCD1-4D41-B561-6EE68F39AF14@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you, Andy! > On Sep 7, 2020, at 8:53 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > I don't know Husserl very well, Henry, but from what I have read he is a Phenomenologist, that, is he aims to make a science of the study of pure, subjective thought forms. As such he is completely at odds with Dewey who explained the ?double-barrelled? nature of the concept of ?an experience? in that ?it includes what men do and suffer, what they strive for, love, believe and endure, and how men act and are acted upon, the ways in which they do and suffer, desire and enjoy, see, believe, imagine.? That is, in the well-known and invariably misunderstood maxim of CHAT, an experience is a unity of the person and the environment. > > Andy > > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 8/09/2020 12:21 pm, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >> Andy, >> I don?t know if you recall, but I introduced myself to you off list in April of 2013, at the encouragement of Natalia Gajdamaschko. I pestered you with questions until you told me to join the chat. I owe you some kindness for putting up with me. Here?s another question: Do Husserl and Dewey resonate at all with one another regarding ?an experience?? >> Henry >> >> >>> On Sep 7, 2020, at 6:20 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>> >>> Goodness! Thank you for your kind words, Henry. I feel the weight of responsibility on my shoulders. >>> >>> The thing about an interview is that it is not a lecture. The Q&A format means that it is the unity of two minds. Evidently, "project" maybe important to me because of my interest in social theory but that is not where Anthony's and my mind meet, I guess. >>> >>> The thing about "project" is that it avoids the ambiguity of "activity" - do you mean it like "there's a lot of activity on this list" or "this activity is aimed at making CHAT accessible." Mass noun or countable noun? Plus I avoid all the baggage carried by the word "activity" which leads to people telling me that I don't understand what "activity" means. Plus "project" really emphasises what is implicit in "an activity" - that it is driven by an unfolding aim and has the kind of subjectivity not normally imputed to an activity, or a group. I don't believe that projects are guided by "cognition," or at least that this is a useful lens to understand activity. "Cognition" is something we analysts abstract from activity. In John Dewey's words: ?an experience? is an ?original unity?, not a combination: ?The existence of this unity is constituted by a single quality that pervades the entire experience in spite of the variation of its constituent parts. This unity is neither emotional, practical, nor intellectual, for these terms name distinctions that reflection can make within it,? >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> Andy Blunden >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> Home Page >>> On 8/09/2020 5:03 am, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >>>> Gente, >>>> It?s been more than a week since Anthony linked us to his interview of Andy Blunden. I?ve been doing some slow listening and thinking about it. >>>> >>>> Hands down the best. through best in Andy?s talk is perizhvanie, both individual and collective. His story about his own moment of empowerment as an engineer was inspiring. But in looking back on his work as a union rep, Andy recalled those who were broken in the work place, sought therapy and finally went on the dole. I assume it is very much the later kind of story that put the fire in the his belly as a lifelong Marxist. >>>> >>>> A quibble and a modest proposal. I have read more of Andy?s work than that of any other Vygotsky-inspired author, including Vygotsky. Based on my reading of Andy, I think that he has overlooked something in responding to Anthony?s questions: Project as the unit of analysis for the social sciences. >>>> >>>> Another quibble and modest proposal. Huw, in the second interview with Anthony (the one liked below), asserts that ?cognition is the conscious guiding aspect of activity?. If we can we substitute ?project? for ?activity? and recognize that affect is as much of a guide as intellect for any project, then we bring project and perizhivanie together in making sense of the human project. >>>> >>>> In communty >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Aug 29, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Anthony Barra > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> "Straddling the Abstract and the Concrete -- with Andy Blunden": >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/ec94eQSSX8E__;!!Mih3wA!UpXpzjd35TETu_23J2PU8rcxyybTq8sDdGu81Y6Ju4VHaJAkEATzgxpXh3bUmlbemRClNA$ >>>>> >>>>> "Researcher and chronicler Andy Blunden reflects on his own relationship with Vygotsky, his role and contributions to the Vygotsky-sphere, and some developmental landmarks of his own. (Originally published August 28, 2020) >>>>> >>>>> Thanks again to Andy. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, August 26, 2020, Anthony Barra > wrote: >>>>> Huw Lloyd is an interesting guy and a gracious conversation partner. >>>>> >>>>> He recently helped me close some (of the many) gaps in my knowledge and understanding here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/4kspsz__;!!Mih3wA!UpXpzjd35TETu_23J2PU8rcxyybTq8sDdGu81Y6Ju4VHaJAkEATzgxpXh3bUmlaNfDwfFQ$ >>>>> >>>>> Huw's commentary will likely be enjoyable even for fellow experts, who could compare his answers to what their own might be, as well as my questions to what they might've asked. >>>>> >>>>> I do feel a bit weird pushing my stuff here, but at the same time, enough people have told me in public and private that they enjoy the videos, so I do like sharing them. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Anthony >>>>> >>>>> (audio-only here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/hlspsz__;!!Mih3wA!UpXpzjd35TETu_23J2PU8rcxyybTq8sDdGu81Y6Ju4VHaJAkEATzgxpXh3bUmlaPyOhUtQ$ ) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>> Video description and Timestamps: >>>>> Researcher Huw Lloyd, fluent in numerous mental models, is a good explainer of concepts -- including many I was completely unversed in. A few threads run through the entirety of this chat: development, self-awareness, and construing an active orientation to any given situation. >>>>> >>>>> SECTION 1: Our pathways to Vygotsky >>>>> >>>>> 0:36 - Reflections on Huw's recent "Vygotsky and Parenting" (https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/ymqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!UpXpzjd35TETu_23J2PU8rcxyybTq8sDdGu81Y6Ju4VHaJAkEATzgxpXh3bUmlZXstvrAg$ ) >>>>> >>>>> 1:45 - Pros and cons of taking scholarly shortcuts >>>>> >>>>> 6:07 - Huw's arrival to Vygotsky, in part through dissatisfaction elsewhere >>>>> >>>>> SECTION 2: Huw's ideas about Active Orientation >>>>> >>>>> 16:38 - What is Active Orientation? >>>>> >>>>> 23:30 - Is Active Orientation a practice? (An exercise in self awareness) >>>>> >>>>> 31:58 - Active Orientation can be documented (microgenesis research of Huw's) >>>>> >>>>> SECTION 3: What is Developmental Education? >>>>> >>>>> 40:37 - A primer on Davydov and Developmental Education >>>>> >>>>> 46:07 - Empirical thinking vs. Theoretical thinking >>>>> >>>>> 50:23 - Grokking the material and the History of ideas >>>>> >>>>> 52:59 - Problems are Good >>>>> >>>>> 55:40 - An illustrative lesson of Davydov's >>>>> >>>>> 1:03:43 - Some key characteristics of developmental education >>>>> >>>>> 1:07:41 - Crises, construals, and neoformations >>>>> >>>>> 1:10:20 - The Desert Oak: a developmental TRIZ problem >>>>> >>>>> SECTION 4: Imagination and Confidence-building >>>>> >>>>> 1:16:07 - Imagination, flow, and problem-solving >>>>> >>>>> 1:24:10 - Systems and Design Ideas (TRIZ approach) >>>>> >>>>> 1:30:22 - Earned, authoritative confidence: Your tempered ideas are become Real >>>>> >>>>> 1:35:20 - The importance of problem-construal or framing >>>>> >>>>> 1:48:04 - Problem-creating, -solving, and -construing >>>>> >>>>> 1:53:51 - This is rich, highly concentrated material (Foundational, generative, "unfoldable" concepts) >>>>> >>>>> 1:55:27 - Notational vs. developmental education (and epistemology) >>>>> >>>>> 1:57:10 - Final two questions (adult-development & advice for problem-designers) >>>>> >>>>> 2:06:20 - Complex vs. complicated (and self-regulation and distance learning) >>>>> >>>>> 2:09:46 - An idea for lunch (as promised: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/bvqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!UpXpzjd35TETu_23J2PU8rcxyybTq8sDdGu81Y6Ju4VHaJAkEATzgxpXh3bUmlbW9GqOwA$ ) >>>>> >>>>> References: >>>>> >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/5vqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!UpXpzjd35TETu_23J2PU8rcxyybTq8sDdGu81Y6Ju4VHaJAkEATzgxpXh3bUmlaF_aiShg$ - "A Study of Active Orientation" (brief introduction) >>>>> >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/2xqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!UpXpzjd35TETu_23J2PU8rcxyybTq8sDdGu81Y6Ju4VHaJAkEATzgxpXh3bUmlZW1HBI1A$ - "TRIZ: a Powerful Methodology for Creative Problem Solving" >>>>> >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/dxqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!UpXpzjd35TETu_23J2PU8rcxyybTq8sDdGu81Y6Ju4VHaJAkEATzgxpXh3bUmlY_-yLMDw$ - "Going with the Flow: How to Engage Boys (and Girls) in Their Literacy Learning" >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200907/dbcb65d4/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Tue Sep 8 13:39:36 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 16:39:36 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Andy Blunden on unit of analysis and Huw on cognition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Henry, Thanks for listening and commenting. I'm finding the "unit of analysis" idea rather compelling and have asked Andy a few more questions about it. For me, it was worthwhile (and nice and short, here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/ecstsz__;!!Mih3wA!V1QmGDX4RBxLmrDpk0edETrCFpdyH_T88O36J635HXHUX9fKCtcIj6PUYDqydUaD23GqWg$ if interested). Thanks, Anthony On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 3:04 PM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Gente, > It?s been more than a week since Anthony linked us to his interview of > Andy Blunden. I?ve been doing some slow listening and thinking about it. > > Hands down the best. through best in Andy?s talk is perizhvanie, both > individual and collective. His story about his own moment of empowerment as > an engineer was inspiring. But in looking back on his work as a union rep, > Andy recalled those who were broken in the work place, sought therapy and > finally went on the dole. I assume it is very much the later kind of story > that put the fire in the his belly as a lifelong Marxist. > > A quibble and a modest proposal. I have read more of Andy?s work than that > of any other Vygotsky-inspired author, including Vygotsky. Based on my > reading of Andy, I think that he has overlooked something in responding to > Anthony?s questions: *Project as the unit of analysis for the social > sciences.* > > Another quibble and modest proposal. Huw, in the second interview with > Anthony (the one liked below), asserts that ?cognition is the conscious > guiding aspect of activity?. If we can we substitute ?project? for > ?activity? and recognize that affect is as much of a guide as intellect for > any project, then we bring project and perizhvanie together in making sense > of the human project. > > In communty > Henry > > > > On Aug 29, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Anthony Barra > wrote: > > "Straddling the Abstract and the Concrete -- with Andy Blunden": > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/ec94eQSSX8E__;!!Mih3wA!V1QmGDX4RBxLmrDpk0edETrCFpdyH_T88O36J635HXHUX9fKCtcIj6PUYDqydUZ3UbqZlg$ > > > "Researcher and chronicler Andy Blunden reflects on his own relationship > with Vygotsky, his role and contributions to the Vygotsky-sphere, and some > developmental landmarks of his own. (Originally published August 28, 2020) > Thanks again to Andy. > > > > > On Wednesday, August 26, 2020, Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Huw Lloyd is an interesting guy and a gracious conversation partner. >> >> He recently helped me close some (of the many) gaps in my knowledge and >> understanding here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/4kspsz__;!!Mih3wA!V1QmGDX4RBxLmrDpk0edETrCFpdyH_T88O36J635HXHUX9fKCtcIj6PUYDqydUazv_uxMg$ >> >> >> Huw's commentary will likely be enjoyable even for fellow experts, who >> could compare his answers to what their own might be, as well as my >> questions to what they might've asked. >> >> I do feel a bit weird pushing my stuff here, but at the same time, enough >> people have told me in public and private that they enjoy the videos, so I >> do like sharing them. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Anthony >> >> (audio-only here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/hlspsz__;!!Mih3wA!V1QmGDX4RBxLmrDpk0edETrCFpdyH_T88O36J635HXHUX9fKCtcIj6PUYDqydUbSeKrRzg$ >> >> ) >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> Video description and Timestamps: >> >> Researcher Huw Lloyd, fluent in numerous mental models, is a good >> explainer of concepts -- including many I was completely unversed in. A few >> threads run through the entirety of this chat: development, self-awareness, >> and construing an active orientation to any given situation. >> >> SECTION 1: Our pathways to Vygotsky >> >> 0:36 - Reflections on Huw's recent "Vygotsky and Parenting" ( >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/ymqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!V1QmGDX4RBxLmrDpk0edETrCFpdyH_T88O36J635HXHUX9fKCtcIj6PUYDqydUY192Hr8w$ >> >> ) >> >> 1:45 - Pros and cons of taking scholarly shortcuts >> >> 6:07 - Huw's arrival to Vygotsky, in part through dissatisfaction >> elsewhere >> >> SECTION 2: Huw's ideas about Active Orientation >> >> 16:38 - What is Active Orientation? >> >> 23:30 - Is Active Orientation a practice? (An exercise in self >> awareness) >> >> 31:58 - Active Orientation can be documented (microgenesis research of >> Huw's) >> >> SECTION 3: What is Developmental Education? >> >> 40:37 - A primer on Davydov and Developmental Education >> >> 46:07 - Empirical thinking vs. Theoretical thinking >> >> 50:23 - Grokking the material and the History of ideas >> >> 52:59 - Problems are Good >> >> 55:40 - An illustrative lesson of Davydov's >> >> 1:03:43 - Some key characteristics of developmental education >> >> 1:07:41 - Crises, construals, and neoformations >> >> 1:10:20 - The Desert Oak: a developmental TRIZ problem >> >> SECTION 4: Imagination and Confidence-building >> >> 1:16:07 - Imagination, flow, and problem-solving >> >> 1:24:10 - Systems and Design Ideas (TRIZ approach) >> >> 1:30:22 - Earned, authoritative confidence: Your tempered ideas are >> become Real >> >> 1:35:20 - The importance of problem-construal or framing >> >> 1:48:04 - Problem-creating, -solving, and -construing >> >> 1:53:51 - This is rich, highly concentrated material (Foundational, >> generative, "unfoldable" concepts) >> >> 1:55:27 - Notational vs. developmental education (and epistemology) >> >> 1:57:10 - Final two questions (adult-development & advice for >> problem-designers) >> >> 2:06:20 - Complex vs. complicated (and self-regulation and distance >> learning) >> >> 2:09:46 - An idea for lunch (as promised: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/bvqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!V1QmGDX4RBxLmrDpk0edETrCFpdyH_T88O36J635HXHUX9fKCtcIj6PUYDqydUYtY9R6Zw$ >> ) >> >> >> References: >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/5vqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!V1QmGDX4RBxLmrDpk0edETrCFpdyH_T88O36J635HXHUX9fKCtcIj6PUYDqydUaMUEkWXg$ >> >> - "A Study of Active Orientation" (brief introduction) >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/2xqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!V1QmGDX4RBxLmrDpk0edETrCFpdyH_T88O36J635HXHUX9fKCtcIj6PUYDqydUbkqWHgDw$ >> >> - "TRIZ: a Powerful Methodology for Creative Problem Solving" >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/dxqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!V1QmGDX4RBxLmrDpk0edETrCFpdyH_T88O36J635HXHUX9fKCtcIj6PUYDqydUbqNgD6dQ$ >> >> - "Going with the Flow: How to Engage Boys (and Girls) in Their Literacy >> Learning" >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200908/33bc1590/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Tue Sep 8 14:22:07 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 16:22:07 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Andy Blunden on unit of analysis and Huw on cognition In-Reply-To: References: <1522e47a-1c7d-5505-e5de-167e3b603103@marxists.org> <10DD39CD-DCD1-4D41-B561-6EE68F39AF14@gmail.com> Message-ID: Andy, I think you?ve exaggerated a bit the differences between Husserl and Dewey. Husserl?s views of the goal of phenomenology changed over his life. (And his students, who included Gustav Shpet, Edith Stein, and Roman Ingarden, each had their own views.) But broadly speaking, Husserl considered phenomenology to be the study of experience from a first-person perspective. That was not an unreasonable idea, given the way we generally think about experience, as a phenomenon of subjectivity. As such, phenomenology is an investigation that certainly includes the ?what? of experience: the objects that a person perceives, thinks about, feels about, and acts towards. But Husserl wanted to bracket any presuppositions about the *existence* of those objects in order to focus on and understand the active, constituting role that he believed consciousness plays in any and every experience. That?s to say, he didn?t believe that an experience is simply a passive copy or reflection of its object. Martin > On Sep 7, 2020, at 9:53 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > I don't know Husserl very well, Henry, but from what I have read he is a Phenomenologist, that, is he aims to make a science of the study of pure, subjective thought forms. As such he is completely at odds with Dewey who explained the ?double-barrelled? nature of the concept of ?an experience? in that ?it includes what men do and suffer, what they strive for, love, believe and endure, and how men act and are acted upon, the ways in which they do and suffer, desire and enjoy, see, believe, imagine.? That is, in the well-known and invariably misunderstood maxim of CHAT, an experience is a unity of the person and the environment. > > Andy > > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 8/09/2020 12:21 pm, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >> Andy, >> I don?t know if you recall, but I introduced myself to you off list in April of 2013, at the encouragement of Natalia Gajdamaschko. I pestered you with questions until you told me to join the chat. I owe you some kindness for putting up with me. Here?s another question: Do Husserl and Dewey resonate at all with one another regarding ?an experience?? >> Henry >> >> >>> On Sep 7, 2020, at 6:20 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>> >>> Goodness! Thank you for your kind words, Henry. I feel the weight of responsibility on my shoulders. >>> >>> The thing about an interview is that it is not a lecture. The Q&A format means that it is the unity of two minds. Evidently, "project" maybe important to me because of my interest in social theory but that is not where Anthony's and my mind meet, I guess. >>> >>> The thing about "project" is that it avoids the ambiguity of "activity" - do you mean it like "there's a lot of activity on this list" or "this activity is aimed at making CHAT accessible." Mass noun or countable noun? Plus I avoid all the baggage carried by the word "activity" which leads to people telling me that I don't understand what "activity" means. Plus "project" really emphasises what is implicit in "an activity" - that it is driven by an unfolding aim and has the kind of subjectivity not normally imputed to an activity, or a group. I don't believe that projects are guided by "cognition," or at least that this is a useful lens to understand activity. "Cognition" is something we analysts abstract from activity. In John Dewey's words: ?an experience? is an ?original unity?, not a combination: ?The existence of this unity is constituted by a single quality that pervades the entire experience in spite of the variation of its constituent parts. This unity is neither emotional, practical, nor intellectual, for these terms name distinctions that reflection can make within it,? >>> >>> Andy >>> Andy Blunden >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> Home Page >>> On 8/09/2020 5:03 am, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >>>> Gente, >>>> It?s been more than a week since Anthony linked us to his interview of Andy Blunden. I?ve been doing some slow listening and thinking about it. >>>> >>>> Hands down the best. through best in Andy?s talk is perizhvanie, both individual and collective. His story about his own moment of empowerment as an engineer was inspiring. But in looking back on his work as a union rep, Andy recalled those who were broken in the work place, sought therapy and finally went on the dole. I assume it is very much the later kind of story that put the fire in the his belly as a lifelong Marxist. >>>> >>>> A quibble and a modest proposal. I have read more of Andy?s work than that of any other Vygotsky-inspired author, including Vygotsky. Based on my reading of Andy, I think that he has overlooked something in responding to Anthony?s questions: Project as the unit of analysis for the social sciences. >>>> >>>> Another quibble and modest proposal. Huw, in the second interview with Anthony (the one liked below), asserts that ?cognition is the conscious guiding aspect of activity?. If we can we substitute ?project? for ?activity? and recognize that affect is as much of a guide as intellect for any project, then we bring project and perizhivanie together in making sense of the human project. >>>> >>>> In communty >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Aug 29, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Anthony Barra > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> "Straddling the Abstract and the Concrete -- with Andy Blunden": >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/ec94eQSSX8E__;!!Mih3wA!TLACDq2veyPPs9WK12QbWkJydPtlZoiOemDgSiXjNgQucTiXx-jMaHWV8uIhWoVY9AKthw$ >>>>> >>>>> "Researcher and chronicler Andy Blunden reflects on his own relationship with Vygotsky, his role and contributions to the Vygotsky-sphere, and some developmental landmarks of his own. (Originally published August 28, 2020) >>>>> >>>>> Thanks again to Andy. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, August 26, 2020, Anthony Barra > wrote: >>>>> Huw Lloyd is an interesting guy and a gracious conversation partner. >>>>> >>>>> He recently helped me close some (of the many) gaps in my knowledge and understanding here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/4kspsz__;!!Mih3wA!TLACDq2veyPPs9WK12QbWkJydPtlZoiOemDgSiXjNgQucTiXx-jMaHWV8uIhWoUlW6vgfg$ >>>>> >>>>> Huw's commentary will likely be enjoyable even for fellow experts, who could compare his answers to what their own might be, as well as my questions to what they might've asked. >>>>> >>>>> I do feel a bit weird pushing my stuff here, but at the same time, enough people have told me in public and private that they enjoy the videos, so I do like sharing them. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Anthony >>>>> >>>>> (audio-only here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/hlspsz__;!!Mih3wA!TLACDq2veyPPs9WK12QbWkJydPtlZoiOemDgSiXjNgQucTiXx-jMaHWV8uIhWoWfbl-Wrg$ ) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>> Video description and Timestamps: >>>>> Researcher Huw Lloyd, fluent in numerous mental models, is a good explainer of concepts -- including many I was completely unversed in. A few threads run through the entirety of this chat: development, self-awareness, and construing an active orientation to any given situation. >>>>> >>>>> SECTION 1: Our pathways to Vygotsky >>>>> >>>>> 0:36 - Reflections on Huw's recent "Vygotsky and Parenting" (https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/ymqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!TLACDq2veyPPs9WK12QbWkJydPtlZoiOemDgSiXjNgQucTiXx-jMaHWV8uIhWoUO4KCgQQ$ ) >>>>> >>>>> 1:45 - Pros and cons of taking scholarly shortcuts >>>>> >>>>> 6:07 - Huw's arrival to Vygotsky, in part through dissatisfaction elsewhere >>>>> >>>>> SECTION 2: Huw's ideas about Active Orientation >>>>> >>>>> 16:38 - What is Active Orientation? >>>>> >>>>> 23:30 - Is Active Orientation a practice? (An exercise in self awareness) >>>>> >>>>> 31:58 - Active Orientation can be documented (microgenesis research of Huw's) >>>>> >>>>> SECTION 3: What is Developmental Education? >>>>> >>>>> 40:37 - A primer on Davydov and Developmental Education >>>>> >>>>> 46:07 - Empirical thinking vs. Theoretical thinking >>>>> >>>>> 50:23 - Grokking the material and the History of ideas >>>>> >>>>> 52:59 - Problems are Good >>>>> >>>>> 55:40 - An illustrative lesson of Davydov's >>>>> >>>>> 1:03:43 - Some key characteristics of developmental education >>>>> >>>>> 1:07:41 - Crises, construals, and neoformations >>>>> >>>>> 1:10:20 - The Desert Oak: a developmental TRIZ problem >>>>> >>>>> SECTION 4: Imagination and Confidence-building >>>>> >>>>> 1:16:07 - Imagination, flow, and problem-solving >>>>> >>>>> 1:24:10 - Systems and Design Ideas (TRIZ approach) >>>>> >>>>> 1:30:22 - Earned, authoritative confidence: Your tempered ideas are become Real >>>>> >>>>> 1:35:20 - The importance of problem-construal or framing >>>>> >>>>> 1:48:04 - Problem-creating, -solving, and -construing >>>>> >>>>> 1:53:51 - This is rich, highly concentrated material (Foundational, generative, "unfoldable" concepts) >>>>> >>>>> 1:55:27 - Notational vs. developmental education (and epistemology) >>>>> >>>>> 1:57:10 - Final two questions (adult-development & advice for problem-designers) >>>>> >>>>> 2:06:20 - Complex vs. complicated (and self-regulation and distance learning) >>>>> >>>>> 2:09:46 - An idea for lunch (as promised: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/bvqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!TLACDq2veyPPs9WK12QbWkJydPtlZoiOemDgSiXjNgQucTiXx-jMaHWV8uIhWoXBVP3XgA$ ) >>>>> >>>>> References: >>>>> >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/5vqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!TLACDq2veyPPs9WK12QbWkJydPtlZoiOemDgSiXjNgQucTiXx-jMaHWV8uIhWoXjIN1EAA$ - "A Study of Active Orientation" (brief introduction) >>>>> >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/2xqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!TLACDq2veyPPs9WK12QbWkJydPtlZoiOemDgSiXjNgQucTiXx-jMaHWV8uIhWoUAsq7geQ$ - "TRIZ: a Powerful Methodology for Creative Problem Solving" >>>>> >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/dxqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!TLACDq2veyPPs9WK12QbWkJydPtlZoiOemDgSiXjNgQucTiXx-jMaHWV8uIhWoUEUzUAww$ - "Going with the Flow: How to Engage Boys (and Girls) in Their Literacy Learning" >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200908/caea5598/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Tue Sep 8 17:35:10 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 10:35:10 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Andy Blunden on unit of analysis and Huw on cognition In-Reply-To: References: <1522e47a-1c7d-5505-e5de-167e3b603103@marxists.org> <10DD39CD-DCD1-4D41-B561-6EE68F39AF14@gmail.com> Message-ID: As I said, Martin, "I don't know Husserl very well." I read him a little over 20 years ago, following on from reading Hegel, and was disappointed by the subjective turn. I am sure you are right, and that my reaction was "exaggerated a bit." A study of experience necessarily includes a element of scepticism about the existence of the objects perceived, that is true. Hegel dealt with this by locating the concepts acquired by the individual in the way of life in which the subject acts and thinks. In this way the moment of scepticism is located in the entire way of life and ways of life are necessarily realistic as totalities. This is not something I saw in Husserl, so his scepticism falls back to that of Kant. At that point, I laid Husserl aside, ... but of course that was probably premature. I do recognise that Phenomenology did go on to grapple with social action as best it could. andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 9/09/2020 7:22 am, Martin Packer wrote: > Andy, I think you?ve exaggerated a bit the differences > between Husserl and Dewey. Husserl?s views of the goal of > phenomenology changed over his life. (And his students, > who included Gustav Shpet, Edith Stein, and Roman > Ingarden, each had their own views.) But broadly speaking, > Husserl considered phenomenology to be the study of > experience from a first-person perspective. That was not > an unreasonable idea, given the way we generally think > about experience, as a phenomenon of subjectivity. As > such,?phenomenology?is an investigation that certainly > includes the ?what? of experience: the objects that a > person perceives, thinks about, feels about, and acts > towards. But Husserl wanted to bracket any presuppositions > about the *existence* of those objects in order to focus > on and understand the active, constituting role that he > believed consciousness plays in any and every experience. > That?s to say, he didn?t believe that an experience is > simply a passive copy or reflection of its object. > > Martin > > > > >> On Sep 7, 2020, at 9:53 PM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >> >> I don't know Husserl very well, Henry, but from what I >> have read he is a Phenomenologist, that, is he aims to >> make a science of the study of pure, subjective thought >> forms. As such he is completely at odds with Dewey who >> explained the ?double-barrelled? nature of the concept of >> ?an experience? in that ?it includes/what/ men do and >> suffer, /what/ they strive for, love, believe and endure, >> and /how/ men act and are acted upon, the ways in which >> they do and suffer, desire and enjoy, see, believe, >> imagine.? That is, in the well-known and invariably >> misunderstood maxim of CHAT, an experience is a unity of >> the person and the environment. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 8/09/2020 12:21 pm, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >>> Andy, >>> I don?t know if you recall, but I introduced myself to >>> you off list in April of 2013, at the encouragement of >>> Natalia Gajdamaschko. I pestered you with questions >>> until you told me to join the chat. ?I owe you some >>> kindness for putting up with me. Here?s another >>> question: Do Husserl and Dewey resonate at all with one >>> another regarding ?an experience?? >>> Henry >>> >>> >>>> On Sep 7, 2020, at 6:20 PM, Andy Blunden >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Goodness! Thank you for your kind words, Henry. I feel >>>> the weight of responsibility on my shoulders. >>>> >>>> The thing about an interview is that it is not a >>>> lecture. The Q&A format means that it is the unity of >>>> two minds. Evidently, "project" maybe important to me >>>> because of my interest in social theory but that is not >>>> where Anthony's and my mind meet, I guess. >>>> >>>> The thing about "project" is that it avoids the >>>> ambiguity of "activity" - do you mean it like "there's >>>> a lot of activity on this list" or "this activity is >>>> aimed at making CHAT accessible." Mass noun or >>>> countable noun? Plus I avoid all the baggage carried by >>>> the word "activity" which leads to people telling me >>>> that I don't understand what "activity" means. Plus >>>> "project" really emphasises what is implicit in "an >>>> activity" - that it is driven by an unfolding aim and >>>> has the kind of subjectivity not normally imputed to an >>>> activity, or a group. I don't believe that projects are >>>> guided by "cognition," or at least that this is a >>>> useful lens to understand activity. "Cognition" is >>>> something we analysts abstract from activity. In John >>>> Dewey's words: ?an experience? is an ?original unity?, >>>> not a combination: ?The existence of this unity is >>>> constituted by a single/quality/ that pervades the >>>> entire experience in spite of the variation of its >>>> constituent parts. This unity is neither emotional, >>>> practical, nor intellectual, for these terms name >>>> distinctions that reflection can make within it,? >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> On 8/09/2020 5:03 am, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >>>>> Gente, >>>>> It?s been more than a week since Anthony linked us to >>>>> his interview of Andy Blunden. I?ve been doing some >>>>> slow listening and thinking about it. >>>>> >>>>> Hands down the best. through best in Andy?s talk is >>>>> perizhvanie, both individual and collective. His story >>>>> about his own moment of empowerment as an engineer was >>>>> inspiring. But in looking back on his work as a union >>>>> rep, Andy recalled those who were broken in the work >>>>> place, sought therapy and finally went on the dole. I >>>>> assume it is very much the later kind of story that >>>>> put the fire in the his belly as a lifelong Marxist. >>>>> >>>>> A quibble and a modest proposal. I have read more of >>>>> Andy?s work than that of any other Vygotsky-inspired >>>>> author, including Vygotsky. Based on my reading of >>>>> Andy, I think that he has overlooked something in >>>>> responding to Anthony?s questions: /Project as the >>>>> unit of analysis for the social sciences./ >>>>> >>>>> Another quibble and modest proposal. Huw, in the >>>>> second interview with Anthony (the one liked below), >>>>> asserts that ?cognition is the conscious guiding >>>>> aspect of activity?. If we can we substitute ?project? >>>>> for ?activity? and recognize that affect is as much of >>>>> a guide as intellect for any project, then we bring >>>>> project and perizhivanie together in making sense of >>>>> the human project. >>>>> >>>>> In communty >>>>> Henry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Aug 29, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Anthony Barra >>>>>> >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> "Straddling the Abstract and the Concrete -- with >>>>>> Andy Blunden": >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/ec94eQSSX8E__;!!Mih3wA!U4EAcxwt3mcEh1KZUYNTjDzjHix0oTl2ZHTivTil-KH8vQ7F7gUuUUbu3dvAvYkfg8DJXQ$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> "Researcher and chronicler Andy Blunden reflects on >>>>>> his own relationship with Vygotsky, his role and >>>>>> contributions to the Vygotsky-sphere, and some >>>>>> developmental landmarks of his own. (Originally >>>>>> published August 28, 2020) >>>>>> Thanks again to Andy. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wednesday, August 26, 2020, Anthony Barra >>>>>> >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Huw Lloyd is an interesting guy and a gracious >>>>>> conversation partner. >>>>>> >>>>>> He recently helped me close some (of the many) >>>>>> gaps in my knowledge and understanding here: >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/4kspsz__;!!Mih3wA!U4EAcxwt3mcEh1KZUYNTjDzjHix0oTl2ZHTivTil-KH8vQ7F7gUuUUbu3dvAvYl9mm-IMQ$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Huw's commentary will likely be enjoyable even >>>>>> for fellow experts, who could compare his answers >>>>>> to what their own might be, as well as my >>>>>> questions to what they might've asked. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do feel a bit weird pushing my stuff here, but >>>>>> at the same time, enough people have told me in >>>>>> public and private that they enjoy the videos, so >>>>>> I do like sharing them. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Anthony >>>>>> >>>>>> (audio-only here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/hlspsz__;!!Mih3wA!U4EAcxwt3mcEh1KZUYNTjDzjHix0oTl2ZHTivTil-KH8vQ7F7gUuUUbu3dvAvYmpWAjZ0A$ >>>>>> ) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>> Video description and Timestamps: >>>>>> >>>>>> Researcher Huw Lloyd, fluent in numerous mental >>>>>> models, is a good explainer of concepts -- >>>>>> including many I was completely unversed in. A >>>>>> few threads run through the entirety of this >>>>>> chat: development, self-awareness, and construing >>>>>> an active orientation to any given situation. >>>>>> >>>>>> SECTION 1: Our pathways to Vygotsky >>>>>> >>>>>> 0:36 - Reflections on Huw's recent "Vygotsky and >>>>>> Parenting" ?(https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/ymqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!U4EAcxwt3mcEh1KZUYNTjDzjHix0oTl2ZHTivTil-KH8vQ7F7gUuUUbu3dvAvYl6DVxVrA$ >>>>>> ) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 1:45 - Pros and cons of taking scholarly shortcuts >>>>>> >>>>>> 6:07 - Huw's arrival to Vygotsky, in part through >>>>>> dissatisfaction ?elsewhere >>>>>> >>>>>> SECTION 2: Huw's ideas about Active Orientation >>>>>> >>>>>> 16:38 - What is Active Orientation? >>>>>> >>>>>> 23:30 - Is Active Orientation a practice? (An >>>>>> exercise in self ?awareness) >>>>>> >>>>>> 31:58 - Active Orientation can be documented >>>>>> (microgenesis research of ?Huw's) >>>>>> >>>>>> SECTION 3: What is Developmental Education? >>>>>> >>>>>> 40:37 - A primer on Davydov and Developmental >>>>>> Education >>>>>> >>>>>> 46:07 - Empirical thinking vs. Theoretical thinking >>>>>> >>>>>> 50:23 - Grokking the material and the History of >>>>>> ideas >>>>>> >>>>>> 52:59 - Problems are Good >>>>>> >>>>>> 55:40 - An illustrative lesson of Davydov's >>>>>> >>>>>> 1:03:43 - Some key characteristics of >>>>>> developmental education >>>>>> >>>>>> 1:07:41 - Crises, construals, and neoformations >>>>>> >>>>>> 1:10:20 - The Desert Oak: a developmental TRIZ >>>>>> problem >>>>>> >>>>>> SECTION 4: Imagination and Confidence-building >>>>>> >>>>>> 1:16:07 - Imagination, flow, and problem-solving >>>>>> >>>>>> 1:24:10 - Systems and Design Ideas (TRIZ approach) >>>>>> >>>>>> 1:30:22 - Earned, authoritative confidence: Your >>>>>> tempered ideas are ?become Real >>>>>> >>>>>> 1:35:20 - The importance of problem-construal or >>>>>> framing >>>>>> >>>>>> 1:48:04 - Problem-creating, -solving, and >>>>>> -construing >>>>>> >>>>>> 1:53:51 - This is rich, highly concentrated >>>>>> material (Foundational, generative, "unfoldable" >>>>>> concepts) >>>>>> >>>>>> 1:55:27 - Notational vs. developmental education >>>>>> (and epistemology) >>>>>> >>>>>> 1:57:10 - Final two questions (adult-development >>>>>> & advice for ?problem-designers) >>>>>> >>>>>> 2:06:20 - Complex vs. complicated (and >>>>>> self-regulation and distance ?learning) >>>>>> >>>>>> 2:09:46 - An idea for lunch (as promised: >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/bvqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!U4EAcxwt3mcEh1KZUYNTjDzjHix0oTl2ZHTivTil-KH8vQ7F7gUuUUbu3dvAvYnpa00eEw$ >>>>>> ) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> References: >>>>>> >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/5vqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!U4EAcxwt3mcEh1KZUYNTjDzjHix0oTl2ZHTivTil-KH8vQ7F7gUuUUbu3dvAvYlSr5h6Hw$ >>>>>> >>>>>> - "A Study of Active Orientation" (brief >>>>>> ?introduction) >>>>>> >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/2xqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!U4EAcxwt3mcEh1KZUYNTjDzjHix0oTl2ZHTivTil-KH8vQ7F7gUuUUbu3dvAvYlk7aSdmQ$ >>>>>> >>>>>> - "TRIZ: a Powerful Methodology for Creative >>>>>> ?Problem Solving" >>>>>> >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/dxqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!U4EAcxwt3mcEh1KZUYNTjDzjHix0oTl2ZHTivTil-KH8vQ7F7gUuUUbu3dvAvYm3VBe-wA$ >>>>>> >>>>>> - "Going with the Flow: How to Engage Boys (and >>>>>> ?Girls) in Their Literacy Learning" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200909/0045debe/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Tue Sep 8 17:47:43 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 19:47:43 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Andy Blunden on unit of analysis and Huw on cognition In-Reply-To: References: <1522e47a-1c7d-5505-e5de-167e3b603103@marxists.org> <10DD39CD-DCD1-4D41-B561-6EE68F39AF14@gmail.com> Message-ID: Andy, I didn?t mean to suggest that there are no problems with Husserl?s approach! :) As you diagnosed, his position is basically Kantian: that is, he assumes that the ?essence? of an entity ? an object of experience ? lies not in the entity but in consciousness. That motivates him to try to strip away everything empirical ? language, culture, way of life ? so as to isolate the contribution of ?pure,? ?transcendental? consciousness. And that way lies madness! For one thing, how could he communicate the results of his investigation if language is to be distrusted? I find Husserl more interesting for the people he influenced than for his own work. For example, the way Shpet reworked Husserl?s phenomenology and so in turn influenced Vygotsky. Martin > On Sep 8, 2020, at 7:35 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > As I said, Martin, "I don't know Husserl very well." I read him a little over 20 years ago, following on from reading Hegel, and was disappointed by the subjective turn. I am sure you are right, and that my reaction was "exaggerated a bit." A study of experience necessarily includes a element of scepticism about the existence of the objects perceived, that is true. Hegel dealt with this by locating the concepts acquired by the individual in the way of life in which the subject acts and thinks. In this way the moment of scepticism is located in the entire way of life and ways of life are necessarily realistic as totalities. This is not something I saw in Husserl, so his scepticism falls back to that of Kant. At that point, I laid Husserl aside, ... but of course that was probably premature. I do recognise that Phenomenology did go on to grapple with social action as best it could. > andy > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 9/09/2020 7:22 am, Martin Packer wrote: >> Andy, I think you?ve exaggerated a bit the differences between Husserl and Dewey. Husserl?s views of the goal of phenomenology changed over his life. (And his students, who included Gustav Shpet, Edith Stein, and Roman Ingarden, each had their own views.) But broadly speaking, Husserl considered phenomenology to be the study of experience from a first-person perspective. That was not an unreasonable idea, given the way we generally think about experience, as a phenomenon of subjectivity. As such, phenomenology is an investigation that certainly includes the ?what? of experience: the objects that a person perceives, thinks about, feels about, and acts towards. But Husserl wanted to bracket any presuppositions about the *existence* of those objects in order to focus on and understand the active, constituting role that he believed consciousness plays in any and every experience. That?s to say, he didn?t believe that an experience is simply a passive copy or reflection of its object. >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >>> On Sep 7, 2020, at 9:53 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>> >>> I don't know Husserl very well, Henry, but from what I have read he is a Phenomenologist, that, is he aims to make a science of the study of pure, subjective thought forms. As such he is completely at odds with Dewey who explained the ?double-barrelled? nature of the concept of ?an experience? in that ?it includes what men do and suffer, what they strive for, love, believe and endure, and how men act and are acted upon, the ways in which they do and suffer, desire and enjoy, see, believe, imagine.? That is, in the well-known and invariably misunderstood maxim of CHAT, an experience is a unity of the person and the environment. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> Andy Blunden >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> Home Page >>> On 8/09/2020 12:21 pm, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >>>> Andy, >>>> I don?t know if you recall, but I introduced myself to you off list in April of 2013, at the encouragement of Natalia Gajdamaschko. I pestered you with questions until you told me to join the chat. I owe you some kindness for putting up with me. Here?s another question: Do Husserl and Dewey resonate at all with one another regarding ?an experience?? >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sep 7, 2020, at 6:20 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Goodness! Thank you for your kind words, Henry. I feel the weight of responsibility on my shoulders. >>>>> >>>>> The thing about an interview is that it is not a lecture. The Q&A format means that it is the unity of two minds. Evidently, "project" maybe important to me because of my interest in social theory but that is not where Anthony's and my mind meet, I guess. >>>>> >>>>> The thing about "project" is that it avoids the ambiguity of "activity" - do you mean it like "there's a lot of activity on this list" or "this activity is aimed at making CHAT accessible." Mass noun or countable noun? Plus I avoid all the baggage carried by the word "activity" which leads to people telling me that I don't understand what "activity" means. Plus "project" really emphasises what is implicit in "an activity" - that it is driven by an unfolding aim and has the kind of subjectivity not normally imputed to an activity, or a group. I don't believe that projects are guided by "cognition," or at least that this is a useful lens to understand activity. "Cognition" is something we analysts abstract from activity. In John Dewey's words: ?an experience? is an ?original unity?, not a combination: ?The existence of this unity is constituted by a single quality that pervades the entire experience in spite of the variation of its constituent parts. This unity is neither emotional, practical, nor intellectual, for these terms name distinctions that reflection can make within it,? >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> Home Page >>>>> On 8/09/2020 5:03 am, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >>>>>> Gente, >>>>>> It?s been more than a week since Anthony linked us to his interview of Andy Blunden. I?ve been doing some slow listening and thinking about it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hands down the best. through best in Andy?s talk is perizhvanie, both individual and collective. His story about his own moment of empowerment as an engineer was inspiring. But in looking back on his work as a union rep, Andy recalled those who were broken in the work place, sought therapy and finally went on the dole. I assume it is very much the later kind of story that put the fire in the his belly as a lifelong Marxist. >>>>>> >>>>>> A quibble and a modest proposal. I have read more of Andy?s work than that of any other Vygotsky-inspired author, including Vygotsky. Based on my reading of Andy, I think that he has overlooked something in responding to Anthony?s questions: Project as the unit of analysis for the social sciences. >>>>>> >>>>>> Another quibble and modest proposal. Huw, in the second interview with Anthony (the one liked below), asserts that ?cognition is the conscious guiding aspect of activity?. If we can we substitute ?project? for ?activity? and recognize that affect is as much of a guide as intellect for any project, then we bring project and perizhivanie together in making sense of the human project. >>>>>> >>>>>> In communty >>>>>> Henry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Aug 29, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Anthony Barra > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Straddling the Abstract and the Concrete -- with Andy Blunden": >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/ec94eQSSX8E__;!!Mih3wA!ReMMDCE_g7C3UrfRsv20QchKVrU0HbheelCHE38j13HH0zYWHRUdg0pTX3qYfgGJhra7aw$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Researcher and chronicler Andy Blunden reflects on his own relationship with Vygotsky, his role and contributions to the Vygotsky-sphere, and some developmental landmarks of his own. (Originally published August 28, 2020) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks again to Andy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 26, 2020, Anthony Barra > wrote: >>>>>>> Huw Lloyd is an interesting guy and a gracious conversation partner. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> He recently helped me close some (of the many) gaps in my knowledge and understanding here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/4kspsz__;!!Mih3wA!ReMMDCE_g7C3UrfRsv20QchKVrU0HbheelCHE38j13HH0zYWHRUdg0pTX3qYfgEByUlQag$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Huw's commentary will likely be enjoyable even for fellow experts, who could compare his answers to what their own might be, as well as my questions to what they might've asked. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do feel a bit weird pushing my stuff here, but at the same time, enough people have told me in public and private that they enjoy the videos, so I do like sharing them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anthony >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (audio-only here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/hlspsz__;!!Mih3wA!ReMMDCE_g7C3UrfRsv20QchKVrU0HbheelCHE38j13HH0zYWHRUdg0pTX3qYfgGO-zbLug$ ) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> Video description and Timestamps: >>>>>>> Researcher Huw Lloyd, fluent in numerous mental models, is a good explainer of concepts -- including many I was completely unversed in. A few threads run through the entirety of this chat: development, self-awareness, and construing an active orientation to any given situation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> SECTION 1: Our pathways to Vygotsky >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 0:36 - Reflections on Huw's recent "Vygotsky and Parenting" (https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/ymqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!ReMMDCE_g7C3UrfRsv20QchKVrU0HbheelCHE38j13HH0zYWHRUdg0pTX3qYfgFOYD_ajA$ ) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1:45 - Pros and cons of taking scholarly shortcuts >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 6:07 - Huw's arrival to Vygotsky, in part through dissatisfaction elsewhere >>>>>>> >>>>>>> SECTION 2: Huw's ideas about Active Orientation >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 16:38 - What is Active Orientation? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 23:30 - Is Active Orientation a practice? (An exercise in self awareness) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 31:58 - Active Orientation can be documented (microgenesis research of Huw's) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> SECTION 3: What is Developmental Education? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 40:37 - A primer on Davydov and Developmental Education >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 46:07 - Empirical thinking vs. Theoretical thinking >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 50:23 - Grokking the material and the History of ideas >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 52:59 - Problems are Good >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 55:40 - An illustrative lesson of Davydov's >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1:03:43 - Some key characteristics of developmental education >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1:07:41 - Crises, construals, and neoformations >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1:10:20 - The Desert Oak: a developmental TRIZ problem >>>>>>> >>>>>>> SECTION 4: Imagination and Confidence-building >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1:16:07 - Imagination, flow, and problem-solving >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1:24:10 - Systems and Design Ideas (TRIZ approach) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1:30:22 - Earned, authoritative confidence: Your tempered ideas are become Real >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1:35:20 - The importance of problem-construal or framing >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1:48:04 - Problem-creating, -solving, and -construing >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1:53:51 - This is rich, highly concentrated material (Foundational, generative, "unfoldable" concepts) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1:55:27 - Notational vs. developmental education (and epistemology) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1:57:10 - Final two questions (adult-development & advice for problem-designers) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2:06:20 - Complex vs. complicated (and self-regulation and distance learning) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2:09:46 - An idea for lunch (as promised: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/bvqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!ReMMDCE_g7C3UrfRsv20QchKVrU0HbheelCHE38j13HH0zYWHRUdg0pTX3qYfgE777QpPg$ ) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> References: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/5vqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!ReMMDCE_g7C3UrfRsv20QchKVrU0HbheelCHE38j13HH0zYWHRUdg0pTX3qYfgGK4jzAvQ$ - "A Study of Active Orientation" (brief introduction) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/2xqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!ReMMDCE_g7C3UrfRsv20QchKVrU0HbheelCHE38j13HH0zYWHRUdg0pTX3qYfgE5H7RJ1w$ - "TRIZ: a Powerful Methodology for Creative Problem Solving" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/dxqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!ReMMDCE_g7C3UrfRsv20QchKVrU0HbheelCHE38j13HH0zYWHRUdg0pTX3qYfgGwcVBN2g$ - "Going with the Flow: How to Engage Boys (and Girls) in Their Literacy Learning" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200908/f8bd195e/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Wed Sep 9 08:30:38 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 11:30:38 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] a bit of breaking news (the good kind) Message-ID: from DK: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/e8vtsz__;!!Mih3wA!XspO-nWQLTd0dkSoWDPbaPESCofO3dqkRUF7pzsReBT2QfKYI3PaE4BKOqaof_MTeFNlvg$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200909/bf0b973d/attachment.html From VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za Wed Sep 9 08:49:14 2020 From: VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za (Mary van der Riet) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 15:49:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a bit of breaking news (the good kind) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: very exciting! Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Anthony Barra Sent: Wednesday, 09 September 2020 17:30 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] a bit of breaking news (the good kind) from DK: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/e8vtsz__;!!Mih3wA!TKiep6l0PnSJgfMikm2-mp0WtRUSDZF3e1er4wbFUayJDWXhu0uoOLzaAwRvThytL2sfkA$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200909/e5280cc8/attachment.html From helenaworthen@gmail.com Wed Sep 9 10:06:29 2020 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 10:06:29 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a bit of breaking news (the good kind) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Love this. >From smoky CA. Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com check your registration at vote.gov > On Sep 9, 2020, at 8:49 AM, Mary van der Riet wrote: > > very exciting! > > Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor > Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa > email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Anthony Barra > > Sent: Wednesday, 09 September 2020 17:30 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] a bit of breaking news (the good kind) > > from DK: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/e8vtsz__;!!Mih3wA!T7Wl7TgD59ncNEsZNwtyAwCgqZ3Th7F4ikP2Buo_SZawNNcSBncwr6SZ8JXmb5RIak6hmw$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200909/e5688944/attachment.html From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Wed Sep 9 10:55:56 2020 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 13:55:56 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [External] Re: a bit of breaking news (the good kind) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank-you Anthony and David! This is simply wonderful! Robert L. On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:09 PM Helena Worthen wrote: > Love this. > > From smoky CA. > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > check your registration at vote.gov > > > > > On Sep 9, 2020, at 8:49 AM, Mary van der Riet > wrote: > > very exciting! > > *Mary van der Riet (Phd), **Associate Professor* > *Discipline of Psychology, **School of Applied Human Sciences, College of > Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa* > *email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za > **tel: +27 33 260 6163* > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Anthony Barra > *Sent:* Wednesday, 09 September 2020 17:30 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] a bit of breaking news (the good kind) > > from DK: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/e8vtsz__;!!Mih3wA!XkEJUnWL5Ejr3UR1IQoi6hUj9lt7dvG6rRyL83K75LMBVQ0UO47Z4Y3Zm1OpNCir-M_rtg$ > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200909/82c93d42/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Sep 9 14:44:27 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 15:44:27 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Andy Blunden on unit of analysis and Huw on cognition In-Reply-To: References: <1522e47a-1c7d-5505-e5de-167e3b603103@marxists.org> <10DD39CD-DCD1-4D41-B561-6EE68F39AF14@gmail.com> Message-ID: <03FBA17E-645A-4F8D-8D51-31AC0A201158@gmail.com> Hello Martin and Andy, Academia shoots articls at me all the time that they think I might like. I just got one that investigates coropreality in the digital age. It makes use of Husserl. I am captured by embodied cognition (embodied, extended, enactive and embedded) as in the writing of Hutto. Do either of you find resonance between embodied cogntion, phenomenology and mediated activity? Feel free to disregard the question, if it sounds too zany. As in, ?that way lies madness?.:) Henry > On Sep 8, 2020, at 6:47 PM, Martin Packer wrote: > > Andy, I didn?t mean to suggest that there are no problems with Husserl?s approach! :) > > As you diagnosed, his position is basically Kantian: that is, he assumes that the ?essence? of an entity ? an object of experience ? lies not in the entity but in consciousness. That motivates him to try to strip away everything empirical ? language, culture, way of life ? so as to isolate the contribution of ?pure,? ?transcendental? consciousness. And that way lies madness! For one thing, how could he communicate the results of his investigation if language is to be distrusted? > > I find Husserl more interesting for the people he influenced than for his own work. For example, the way Shpet reworked Husserl?s phenomenology and so in turn influenced Vygotsky. > > Martin > > > > >> On Sep 8, 2020, at 7:35 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >> >> As I said, Martin, "I don't know Husserl very well." I read him a little over 20 years ago, following on from reading Hegel, and was disappointed by the subjective turn. I am sure you are right, and that my reaction was "exaggerated a bit." A study of experience necessarily includes a element of scepticism about the existence of the objects perceived, that is true. Hegel dealt with this by locating the concepts acquired by the individual in the way of life in which the subject acts and thinks. In this way the moment of scepticism is located in the entire way of life and ways of life are necessarily realistic as totalities. This is not something I saw in Husserl, so his scepticism falls back to that of Kant. At that point, I laid Husserl aside, ... but of course that was probably premature. I do recognise that Phenomenology did go on to grapple with social action as best it could. >> >> andy >> >> Andy Blunden >> Hegel for Social Movements >> Home Page >> On 9/09/2020 7:22 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>> Andy, I think you?ve exaggerated a bit the differences between Husserl and Dewey. Husserl?s views of the goal of phenomenology changed over his life. (And his students, who included Gustav Shpet, Edith Stein, and Roman Ingarden, each had their own views.) But broadly speaking, Husserl considered phenomenology to be the study of experience from a first-person perspective. That was not an unreasonable idea, given the way we generally think about experience, as a phenomenon of subjectivity. As such, phenomenology is an investigation that certainly includes the ?what? of experience: the objects that a person perceives, thinks about, feels about, and acts towards. But Husserl wanted to bracket any presuppositions about the *existence* of those objects in order to focus on and understand the active, constituting role that he believed consciousness plays in any and every experience. That?s to say, he didn?t believe that an experience is simply a passive copy or reflection of its object. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Sep 7, 2020, at 9:53 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>>> >>>> I don't know Husserl very well, Henry, but from what I have read he is a Phenomenologist, that, is he aims to make a science of the study of pure, subjective thought forms. As such he is completely at odds with Dewey who explained the ?double-barrelled? nature of the concept of ?an experience? in that ?it includes what men do and suffer, what they strive for, love, believe and endure, and how men act and are acted upon, the ways in which they do and suffer, desire and enjoy, see, believe, imagine.? That is, in the well-known and invariably misunderstood maxim of CHAT, an experience is a unity of the person and the environment. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> Andy Blunden >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> Home Page >>>> On 8/09/2020 12:21 pm, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >>>>> Andy, >>>>> I don?t know if you recall, but I introduced myself to you off list in April of 2013, at the encouragement of Natalia Gajdamaschko. I pestered you with questions until you told me to join the chat. I owe you some kindness for putting up with me. Here?s another question: Do Husserl and Dewey resonate at all with one another regarding ?an experience?? >>>>> Henry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 7, 2020, at 6:20 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Goodness! Thank you for your kind words, Henry. I feel the weight of responsibility on my shoulders. >>>>>> >>>>>> The thing about an interview is that it is not a lecture. The Q&A format means that it is the unity of two minds. Evidently, "project" maybe important to me because of my interest in social theory but that is not where Anthony's and my mind meet, I guess. >>>>>> >>>>>> The thing about "project" is that it avoids the ambiguity of "activity" - do you mean it like "there's a lot of activity on this list" or "this activity is aimed at making CHAT accessible." Mass noun or countable noun? Plus I avoid all the baggage carried by the word "activity" which leads to people telling me that I don't understand what "activity" means. Plus "project" really emphasises what is implicit in "an activity" - that it is driven by an unfolding aim and has the kind of subjectivity not normally imputed to an activity, or a group. I don't believe that projects are guided by "cognition," or at least that this is a useful lens to understand activity. "Cognition" is something we analysts abstract from activity. In John Dewey's words: ?an experience? is an ?original unity?, not a combination: ?The existence of this unity is constituted by a single quality that pervades the entire experience in spite of the variation of its constituent parts. This unity is neither emotional, practical, nor intellectual, for these terms name distinctions that reflection can make within it,? >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>> Home Page >>>>>> On 8/09/2020 5:03 am, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >>>>>>> Gente, >>>>>>> It?s been more than a week since Anthony linked us to his interview of Andy Blunden. I?ve been doing some slow listening and thinking about it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hands down the best. through best in Andy?s talk is perizhvanie, both individual and collective. His story about his own moment of empowerment as an engineer was inspiring. But in looking back on his work as a union rep, Andy recalled those who were broken in the work place, sought therapy and finally went on the dole. I assume it is very much the later kind of story that put the fire in the his belly as a lifelong Marxist. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A quibble and a modest proposal. I have read more of Andy?s work than that of any other Vygotsky-inspired author, including Vygotsky. Based on my reading of Andy, I think that he has overlooked something in responding to Anthony?s questions: Project as the unit of analysis for the social sciences. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Another quibble and modest proposal. Huw, in the second interview with Anthony (the one liked below), asserts that ?cognition is the conscious guiding aspect of activity?. If we can we substitute ?project? for ?activity? and recognize that affect is as much of a guide as intellect for any project, then we bring project and perizhivanie together in making sense of the human project. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In communty >>>>>>> Henry >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Aug 29, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Anthony Barra > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Straddling the Abstract and the Concrete -- with Andy Blunden": >>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/ec94eQSSX8E__;!!Mih3wA!WLFqobE8M9aoCNBgxsFyLoJ4s25zWpz70opj8FTyX1XQqpBSL-I23d_Oa2lMJzaMLyrDmw$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Researcher and chronicler Andy Blunden reflects on his own relationship with Vygotsky, his role and contributions to the Vygotsky-sphere, and some developmental landmarks of his own. (Originally published August 28, 2020) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks again to Andy. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 26, 2020, Anthony Barra > wrote: >>>>>>>> Huw Lloyd is an interesting guy and a gracious conversation partner. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> He recently helped me close some (of the many) gaps in my knowledge and understanding here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/4kspsz__;!!Mih3wA!WLFqobE8M9aoCNBgxsFyLoJ4s25zWpz70opj8FTyX1XQqpBSL-I23d_Oa2lMJzYtQR-7Tw$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Huw's commentary will likely be enjoyable even for fellow experts, who could compare his answers to what their own might be, as well as my questions to what they might've asked. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I do feel a bit weird pushing my stuff here, but at the same time, enough people have told me in public and private that they enjoy the videos, so I do like sharing them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anthony >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (audio-only here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/hlspsz__;!!Mih3wA!WLFqobE8M9aoCNBgxsFyLoJ4s25zWpz70opj8FTyX1XQqpBSL-I23d_Oa2lMJza6tRzhkg$ ) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> Video description and Timestamps: >>>>>>>> Researcher Huw Lloyd, fluent in numerous mental models, is a good explainer of concepts -- including many I was completely unversed in. A few threads run through the entirety of this chat: development, self-awareness, and construing an active orientation to any given situation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> SECTION 1: Our pathways to Vygotsky >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 0:36 - Reflections on Huw's recent "Vygotsky and Parenting" (https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/ymqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!WLFqobE8M9aoCNBgxsFyLoJ4s25zWpz70opj8FTyX1XQqpBSL-I23d_Oa2lMJzZHrGNeeg$ ) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1:45 - Pros and cons of taking scholarly shortcuts >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 6:07 - Huw's arrival to Vygotsky, in part through dissatisfaction elsewhere >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> SECTION 2: Huw's ideas about Active Orientation >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 16:38 - What is Active Orientation? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 23:30 - Is Active Orientation a practice? (An exercise in self awareness) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 31:58 - Active Orientation can be documented (microgenesis research of Huw's) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> SECTION 3: What is Developmental Education? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 40:37 - A primer on Davydov and Developmental Education >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 46:07 - Empirical thinking vs. Theoretical thinking >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 50:23 - Grokking the material and the History of ideas >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 52:59 - Problems are Good >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 55:40 - An illustrative lesson of Davydov's >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1:03:43 - Some key characteristics of developmental education >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1:07:41 - Crises, construals, and neoformations >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1:10:20 - The Desert Oak: a developmental TRIZ problem >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> SECTION 4: Imagination and Confidence-building >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1:16:07 - Imagination, flow, and problem-solving >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1:24:10 - Systems and Design Ideas (TRIZ approach) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1:30:22 - Earned, authoritative confidence: Your tempered ideas are become Real >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1:35:20 - The importance of problem-construal or framing >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1:48:04 - Problem-creating, -solving, and -construing >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1:53:51 - This is rich, highly concentrated material (Foundational, generative, "unfoldable" concepts) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1:55:27 - Notational vs. developmental education (and epistemology) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1:57:10 - Final two questions (adult-development & advice for problem-designers) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2:06:20 - Complex vs. complicated (and self-regulation and distance learning) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2:09:46 - An idea for lunch (as promised: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/bvqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!WLFqobE8M9aoCNBgxsFyLoJ4s25zWpz70opj8FTyX1XQqpBSL-I23d_Oa2lMJzY7bqX72Q$ ) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> References: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/5vqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!WLFqobE8M9aoCNBgxsFyLoJ4s25zWpz70opj8FTyX1XQqpBSL-I23d_Oa2lMJzabaxcxag$ - "A Study of Active Orientation" (brief introduction) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/2xqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!WLFqobE8M9aoCNBgxsFyLoJ4s25zWpz70opj8FTyX1XQqpBSL-I23d_Oa2lMJzZA9My1tg$ - "TRIZ: a Powerful Methodology for Creative Problem Solving" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/dxqpsz__;!!Mih3wA!WLFqobE8M9aoCNBgxsFyLoJ4s25zWpz70opj8FTyX1XQqpBSL-I23d_Oa2lMJzb4qXG2YQ$ - "Going with the Flow: How to Engage Boys (and Girls) in Their Literacy Learning" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200909/10c9ffad/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Wed Sep 9 16:24:16 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 18:24:16 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Andy Blunden on unit of analysis and Huw on cognition In-Reply-To: <03FBA17E-645A-4F8D-8D51-31AC0A201158@gmail.com> References: <1522e47a-1c7d-5505-e5de-167e3b603103@marxists.org> <10DD39CD-DCD1-4D41-B561-6EE68F39AF14@gmail.com> <03FBA17E-645A-4F8D-8D51-31AC0A201158@gmail.com> Message-ID: <28D2471A-59C3-4808-8E86-B9C9676F92AA@cantab.net> Hi Henry, Yes, phenomenology has connections with 4E cognition. Often Merleau-Ponty is the phenomenologist who is cited, but also Heidegger. One of the contemporary philosophers involved in 4E is Shaun Gallagher, and his training is in phenomenology. Martin > On Sep 9, 2020, at 4:44 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > Hello Martin and Andy, > Academia shoots articls at me all the time that they think I might like. I just got one that investigates coropreality in the digital age. It makes use of Husserl. I am captured by embodied cognition (embodied, extended, enactive and embedded) as in the writing of Hutto. Do either of you find resonance between embodied cogntion, phenomenology and mediated activity? Feel free to disregard the question, if it sounds too zany. As in, ?that way lies madness?.:) > Henry > >> On Sep 8, 2020, at 6:47 PM, Martin Packer > wrote: >> >> Andy, I didn?t mean to suggest that there are no problems with Husserl?s approach! :) >> >> As you diagnosed, his position is basically Kantian: that is, he assumes that the ?essence? of an entity ? an object of experience ? lies not in the entity but in consciousness. That motivates him to try to strip away everything empirical ? language, culture, way of life ? so as to isolate the contribution of ?pure,? ?transcendental? consciousness. And that way lies madness! For one thing, how could he communicate the results of his investigation if language is to be distrusted? >> >> I find Husserl more interesting for the people he influenced than for his own work. For example, the way Shpet reworked Husserl?s phenomenology and so in turn influenced Vygotsky. >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >>> On Sep 8, 2020, at 7:35 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>> >>> As I said, Martin, "I don't know Husserl very well." I read him a little over 20 years ago, following on from reading Hegel, and was disappointed by the subjective turn. I am sure you are right, and that my reaction was "exaggerated a bit." A study of experience necessarily includes a element of scepticism about the existence of the objects perceived, that is true. Hegel dealt with this by locating the concepts acquired by the individual in the way of life in which the subject acts and thinks. In this way the moment of scepticism is located in the entire way of life and ways of life are necessarily realistic as totalities. This is not something I saw in Husserl, so his scepticism falls back to that of Kant. At that point, I laid Husserl aside, ... but of course that was probably premature. I do recognise that Phenomenology did go on to grapple with social action as best it could. >>> andy >>> Andy Blunden >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> Home Page >>> On 9/09/2020 7:22 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>>> Andy, I think you?ve exaggerated a bit the differences between Husserl and Dewey. Husserl?s views of the goal of phenomenology changed over his life. (And his students, who included Gustav Shpet, Edith Stein, and Roman Ingarden, each had their own views.) But broadly speaking, Husserl considered phenomenology to be the study of experience from a first-person perspective. That was not an unreasonable idea, given the way we generally think about experience, as a phenomenon of subjectivity. As such, phenomenology is an investigation that certainly includes the ?what? of experience: the objects that a person perceives, thinks about, feels about, and acts towards. But Husserl wanted to bracket any presuppositions about the *existence* of those objects in order to focus on and understand the active, constituting role that he believed consciousness plays in any and every experience. That?s to say, he didn?t believe that an experience is simply a passive copy or reflection of its object. >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200909/d022b990/attachment.html From bronwynparkin18@gmail.com Wed Sep 9 16:26:26 2020 From: bronwynparkin18@gmail.com (Bronwyn Parkin) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 08:56:26 +0930 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a bit of breaking news (the good kind) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> This is exciting. I couldn?t pick up from the video whether it is being translated into Korean or English David. What is the timeline on publication? Thank you, Bronwyn From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Anthony Barra Sent: Thursday, 10 September 2020 1:01 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] a bit of breaking news (the good kind) from DK: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/e8vtsz__;!!Mih3wA!WJD0ohFL146S4qNPScaFqC18O5ZOaoQYoDogvl9Wo8cUlAyp9qhxj_VccfjTb-N2FuoaaA$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200910/b8c8eacd/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Sep 9 16:43:23 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 08:43:23 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a bit of breaking news (the good kind) In-Reply-To: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: We have already published three volumes in Korean, Bronwyn. We'll do the fourth volume next year. But the contract we are getting from Springer is for a two-volume English edition, with one volume published ini 2021 and the final volume in 2022. This year? We SHOULD have Vol. 2 out in English by December. Nikolai is still struggling to tighten up some of my looser translations.... David Kellogg Sangmyung University New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky Some free e-prints today available at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!Wr9XTE3YIMoCL8TKb1sxvNmhi-W9_yKc1BXDn9G35gGIvSsSjsi9rcwokIjYnkmDOpb2iQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Wr9XTE3YIMoCL8TKb1sxvNmhi-W9_yKc1BXDn9G35gGIvSsSjsi9rcwokIjYnknXOJ-rCw$ On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 8:28 AM Bronwyn Parkin wrote: > This is exciting. I couldn?t pick up from the video whether it is being > translated into Korean or English David. What is the timeline on > publication? > > Thank you, Bronwyn > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Anthony Barra > *Sent:* Thursday, 10 September 2020 1:01 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] a bit of breaking news (the good kind) > > > > from DK: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/e8vtsz__;!!Mih3wA!Wr9XTE3YIMoCL8TKb1sxvNmhi-W9_yKc1BXDn9G35gGIvSsSjsi9rcwokIjYnklFgZ2pwQ$ > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200910/e7c721f7/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Sep 9 17:04:49 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 18:04:49 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Andy Blunden on unit of analysis and Huw on cognition In-Reply-To: <28D2471A-59C3-4808-8E86-B9C9676F92AA@cantab.net> References: <1522e47a-1c7d-5505-e5de-167e3b603103@marxists.org> <10DD39CD-DCD1-4D41-B561-6EE68F39AF14@gmail.com> <03FBA17E-645A-4F8D-8D51-31AC0A201158@gmail.com> <28D2471A-59C3-4808-8E86-B9C9676F92AA@cantab.net> Message-ID: <30D4BB42-28D2-4679-9D02-2BC0A9B4316D@gmail.com> Great! Thanks, Martin. That leaves mediated activity, where the mediation is digital. Is there a ?feel? to digital cognition? Cyborgs and synths suggest some kind of individual consciousness. Do synths and cyborgs have electric dreams? Maybe the ?hard problem? of consciousness is solved through technology. But it?s collective. And it spells the next stage of the human experiment. Who out there has read Arthur Clark?s Childhood?s End? I am Buridan?s Ass looking at your sign. Henry > On Sep 9, 2020, at 5:24 PM, Martin Packer wrote: > > Hi Henry, > > Yes, phenomenology has connections with 4E cognition. Often Merleau-Ponty is the phenomenologist who is cited, but also Heidegger. One of the contemporary philosophers involved in 4E is Shaun Gallagher, and his training is in phenomenology. > > Martin Ha,ha! > > > > > >> On Sep 9, 2020, at 4:44 PM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: >> >> Hello Martin and Andy, >> Academia shoots articls at me all the time that they think I might like. I just got one that investigates coropreality in the digital age. It makes use of Husserl. I am captured by embodied cognition (embodied, extended, enactive and embedded) as in the writing of Hutto. Do either of you find resonance between embodied cogntion, phenomenology and mediated activity? Feel free to disregard the question, if it sounds too zany. As in, ?that way lies madness?.:) >> Henry >> >>> On Sep 8, 2020, at 6:47 PM, Martin Packer > wrote: >>> >>> Andy, I didn?t mean to suggest that there are no problems with Husserl?s approach! :) >>> >>> As you diagnosed, his position is basically Kantian: that is, he assumes that the ?essence? of an entity ? an object of experience ? lies not in the entity but in consciousness. That motivates him to try to strip away everything empirical ? language, culture, way of life ? so as to isolate the contribution of ?pure,? ?transcendental? consciousness. And that way lies madness! For one thing, how could he communicate the results of his investigation if language is to be distrusted? >>> >>> I find Husserl more interesting for the people he influenced than for his own work. For example, the way Shpet reworked Husserl?s phenomenology and so in turn influenced Vygotsky. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Sep 8, 2020, at 7:35 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>>> >>>> As I said, Martin, "I don't know Husserl very well." I read him a little over 20 years ago, following on from reading Hegel, and was disappointed by the subjective turn. I am sure you are right, and that my reaction was "exaggerated a bit." A study of experience necessarily includes a element of scepticism about the existence of the objects perceived, that is true. Hegel dealt with this by locating the concepts acquired by the individual in the way of life in which the subject acts and thinks. In this way the moment of scepticism is located in the entire way of life and ways of life are necessarily realistic as totalities. This is not something I saw in Husserl, so his scepticism falls back to that of Kant. At that point, I laid Husserl aside, ... but of course that was probably premature. I do recognise that Phenomenology did go on to grapple with social action as best it could. >>>> >>>> andy >>>> >>>> Andy Blunden >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> Home Page >>>> On 9/09/2020 7:22 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>>>> Andy, I think you?ve exaggerated a bit the differences between Husserl and Dewey. Husserl?s views of the goal of phenomenology changed over his life. (And his students, who included Gustav Shpet, Edith Stein, and Roman Ingarden, each had their own views.) But broadly speaking, Husserl considered phenomenology to be the study of experience from a first-person perspective. That was not an unreasonable idea, given the way we generally think about experience, as a phenomenon of subjectivity. As such, phenomenology is an investigation that certainly includes the ?what? of experience: the objects that a person perceives, thinks about, feels about, and acts towards. But Husserl wanted to bracket any presuppositions about the *existence* of those objects in order to focus on and understand the active, constituting role that he believed consciousness plays in any and every experience. That?s to say, he didn?t believe that an experience is simply a passive copy or reflection of its object. >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200909/9330d1f6/attachment-0001.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Sep 9 17:17:53 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 18:17:53 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a bit of breaking news (the good kind) In-Reply-To: References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <73E3F726-8DC0-4B16-B7A6-2269526997F4@gmail.com> David, I love your annecdote that Vygotsky wrote pearls of pedalogical wisdom as comments on the homework of his students who were working to receive teacher certification. These pearls you are now translating and publishing. Did they read his comments? I doubt my student teachers read mine very often, since the papers already had a grade on them.:( Though It must have been worth their while when I was channeling Vygotsky.:) Henry > On Sep 9, 2020, at 5:43 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > We have already published three volumes in Korean, Bronwyn. We'll do the fourth volume next year. > > But the contract we are getting from Springer is for a two-volume English edition, with one volume published ini 2021 and the final volume in 2022. > > This year? We SHOULD have Vol. 2 out in English by December. Nikolai is still struggling to tighten up some of my looser translations.... > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: > Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky > > Some free e-prints today available at: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!TR0LqUW466k43AgFI2q6pg4tqIIwSiyp0ZHHvvzanR-ul-lI1srN56z-UP8UnkjUD1OFIg$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TR0LqUW466k43AgFI2q6pg4tqIIwSiyp0ZHHvvzanR-ul-lI1srN56z-UP8UnkjFJxZ8hg$ > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 8:28 AM Bronwyn Parkin > wrote: > This is exciting. I couldn?t pick up from the video whether it is being translated into Korean or English David. What is the timeline on publication? > > Thank you, Bronwyn > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Anthony Barra > Sent: Thursday, 10 September 2020 1:01 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] a bit of breaking news (the good kind) > > > > from DK: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/e8vtsz__;!!Mih3wA!TR0LqUW466k43AgFI2q6pg4tqIIwSiyp0ZHHvvzanR-ul-lI1srN56z-UP8UnkiMPDh1zQ$ > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200909/1a0a2600/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Wed Sep 9 17:30:50 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 10:30:50 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a bit of breaking news (the good kind) In-Reply-To: References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: This is really great work, David. Congratulations. I think we're all busting to read this material. Springer are definitely on a winner here. andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 10/09/2020 9:43 am, David Kellogg wrote: > We have already published three volumes in Korean, > Bronwyn. We'll do the fourth volume next year. > > But the contract we are getting from Springer is for a > two-volume English edition, with one volume published ini > 2021 and the final volume in 2022. > > This year? We SHOULD have Vol. 2 out in English by > December. Nikolai is still struggling to tighten up some > of my looser translations.... > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: > Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and > between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky > > Some free e-prints today available at: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!RJmU1tGeV5Jqo2nmUvcpwN-WgK4tuqWbx2TUPtWdfvuvNEmImWiRA3J2tek11k4H9H7tzQ$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's > Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RJmU1tGeV5Jqo2nmUvcpwN-WgK4tuqWbx2TUPtWdfvuvNEmImWiRA3J2tek11k4uQ5HjnA$ > > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 8:28 AM Bronwyn Parkin > > wrote: > > This is exciting. I couldn?t pick up from the video > whether it is being translated into Korean or English > David. What is the timeline on publication? > > Thank you, Bronwyn > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On Behalf > Of *Anthony Barra > *Sent:* Thursday, 10 September 2020 1:01 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] a bit of breaking news (the good kind) > > from DK: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/e8vtsz__;!!Mih3wA!RJmU1tGeV5Jqo2nmUvcpwN-WgK4tuqWbx2TUPtWdfvuvNEmImWiRA3J2tek11k72enzfkQ$ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200910/95981df1/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Sep 9 17:31:27 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 09:31:27 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a bit of breaking news (the good kind) In-Reply-To: <73E3F726-8DC0-4B16-B7A6-2269526997F4@gmail.com> References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <73E3F726-8DC0-4B16-B7A6-2269526997F4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Henry-- Take a look at this. It's one of the few parts of the Pedology of the Adolescent that has been published (there are a few other parts in Volume Five of the CW): https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/reader/p185.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!XMA-wIK3BqVJBbJtfZKbLc40ZgbaunpNiI99uxxarmVsXrsSumYqen6iMA-7xiHms1oeOw$ At the beginning, you'll see the basic agenda of the lesson and below it you'll find the homework assignments. We occasionally do the homework assignments here in Korea (and we included one by one of our teachers in the last Korean volume, which is now our second best selling book after Thinking and Speech). I did one of Vygotsky's assignments myself as a paper for the upcoming pedology issue of MCA (should be Vol. 1 2021, according to Alberto). Unfortunately, I've never seen any feedback from Vygotsky. That was one reason I wanted to submit the assignment to MCA and get feedback from you lot instead. In Korea, when they do the ritual ?? sacrificial meal and the ancestors do not actually show up to eat the sacrifices, the family members do it for them. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky Some free e-prints today available at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!XMA-wIK3BqVJBbJtfZKbLc40ZgbaunpNiI99uxxarmVsXrsSumYqen6iMA-7xiE8_0h2tg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XMA-wIK3BqVJBbJtfZKbLc40ZgbaunpNiI99uxxarmVsXrsSumYqen6iMA-7xiG9GPtEjw$ On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 9:20 AM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > David, > I love your annecdote that Vygotsky wrote pearls of pedalogical wisdom as > comments on the homework of his students who were working to receive > teacher certification. These pearls you are now translating and publishing. > Did they read his comments? I doubt my student teachers read mine very > often, since the papers already had a grade on them.:( Though It must have > been worth their while when I was channeling Vygotsky.:) > Henry > > > On Sep 9, 2020, at 5:43 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > We have already published three volumes in Korean, Bronwyn. We'll do the > fourth volume next year. > > But the contract we are getting from Springer is for a two-volume English > edition, with one volume published ini 2021 and the final volume in 2022. > > This year? We SHOULD have Vol. 2 out in English by December. Nikolai is > still struggling to tighten up some of my looser translations.... > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: > Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, > Hasan, and Vygotsky > > Some free e-prints today available at: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!XMA-wIK3BqVJBbJtfZKbLc40ZgbaunpNiI99uxxarmVsXrsSumYqen6iMA-7xiE8_0h2tg$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XMA-wIK3BqVJBbJtfZKbLc40ZgbaunpNiI99uxxarmVsXrsSumYqen6iMA-7xiG9GPtEjw$ > > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 8:28 AM Bronwyn Parkin > wrote: > >> This is exciting. I couldn?t pick up from the video whether it is being >> translated into Korean or English David. What is the timeline on >> publication? >> >> Thank you, Bronwyn >> >> >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *On Behalf Of *Anthony Barra >> *Sent:* Thursday, 10 September 2020 1:01 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] a bit of breaking news (the good kind) >> >> >> >> from DK: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/e8vtsz__;!!Mih3wA!XMA-wIK3BqVJBbJtfZKbLc40ZgbaunpNiI99uxxarmVsXrsSumYqen6iMA-7xiHtjIbC8A$ >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200910/5a81f118/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Wed Sep 9 18:00:35 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 20:00:35 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Andy Blunden on unit of analysis and Huw on cognition In-Reply-To: <30D4BB42-28D2-4679-9D02-2BC0A9B4316D@gmail.com> References: <1522e47a-1c7d-5505-e5de-167e3b603103@marxists.org> <10DD39CD-DCD1-4D41-B561-6EE68F39AF14@gmail.com> <03FBA17E-645A-4F8D-8D51-31AC0A201158@gmail.com> <28D2471A-59C3-4808-8E86-B9C9676F92AA@cantab.net> <30D4BB42-28D2-4679-9D02-2BC0A9B4316D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0DFAFC51-A8E1-42C7-A9A2-D6792F61FD71@cantab.net> Henry, my plan as an undergraduate was to do doctoral studies in AI. I had worked as an apprentice computer programer, and also played around with electronics as a hobby. I still like getting to the command line of my Mac, and my music setup includes a linux box coupled with a fancy programable d-to-a converter. Yet I have never detected even a glimmer of consciousness in my digital devices. Do you know Dreyfus? ?What Computers Can?t Do?? I learned a lot about phenomenology from him. But perhaps I misunderstand your question. Certainly digital devices are important mediators and extensions of human capabilities. That?s not a topic I?ve pursued, though. If Facebook is the singularity, we are all moving in the direction of madness! :) Martin > On Sep 9, 2020, at 7:04 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > Great! Thanks, Martin. > That leaves mediated activity, where the mediation is digital. Is there a ?feel? to digital cognition? Cyborgs and synths suggest some kind of individual consciousness. Do synths and cyborgs have electric dreams? Maybe the ?hard problem? of consciousness is solved through technology. But it?s collective. And it spells the next stage of the human experiment. Who out there has read Arthur Clark?s Childhood?s End? I am Buridan?s Ass looking at your sign. > Henry > > > >> On Sep 9, 2020, at 5:24 PM, Martin Packer > wrote: >> >> Hi Henry, >> >> Yes, phenomenology has connections with 4E cognition. Often Merleau-Ponty is the phenomenologist who is cited, but also Heidegger. One of the contemporary philosophers involved in 4E is Shaun Gallagher, and his training is in phenomenology. >> >> Martin > > Ha,ha! >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Sep 9, 2020, at 4:44 PM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: >>> >>> Hello Martin and Andy, >>> Academia shoots articls at me all the time that they think I might like. I just got one that investigates coropreality in the digital age. It makes use of Husserl. I am captured by embodied cognition (embodied, extended, enactive and embedded) as in the writing of Hutto. Do either of you find resonance between embodied cogntion, phenomenology and mediated activity? Feel free to disregard the question, if it sounds too zany. As in, ?that way lies madness?.:) >>> Henry >>> >>>> On Sep 8, 2020, at 6:47 PM, Martin Packer > wrote: >>>> >>>> Andy, I didn?t mean to suggest that there are no problems with Husserl?s approach! :) >>>> >>>> As you diagnosed, his position is basically Kantian: that is, he assumes that the ?essence? of an entity ? an object of experience ? lies not in the entity but in consciousness. That motivates him to try to strip away everything empirical ? language, culture, way of life ? so as to isolate the contribution of ?pure,? ?transcendental? consciousness. And that way lies madness! For one thing, how could he communicate the results of his investigation if language is to be distrusted? >>>> >>>> I find Husserl more interesting for the people he influenced than for his own work. For example, the way Shpet reworked Husserl?s phenomenology and so in turn influenced Vygotsky. >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sep 8, 2020, at 7:35 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> As I said, Martin, "I don't know Husserl very well." I read him a little over 20 years ago, following on from reading Hegel, and was disappointed by the subjective turn. I am sure you are right, and that my reaction was "exaggerated a bit." A study of experience necessarily includes a element of scepticism about the existence of the objects perceived, that is true. Hegel dealt with this by locating the concepts acquired by the individual in the way of life in which the subject acts and thinks. In this way the moment of scepticism is located in the entire way of life and ways of life are necessarily realistic as totalities. This is not something I saw in Husserl, so his scepticism falls back to that of Kant. At that point, I laid Husserl aside, ... but of course that was probably premature. I do recognise that Phenomenology did go on to grapple with social action as best it could. >>>>> andy >>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> Home Page >>>>> On 9/09/2020 7:22 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>>>>> Andy, I think you?ve exaggerated a bit the differences between Husserl and Dewey. Husserl?s views of the goal of phenomenology changed over his life. (And his students, who included Gustav Shpet, Edith Stein, and Roman Ingarden, each had their own views.) But broadly speaking, Husserl considered phenomenology to be the study of experience from a first-person perspective. That was not an unreasonable idea, given the way we generally think about experience, as a phenomenon of subjectivity. As such, phenomenology is an investigation that certainly includes the ?what? of experience: the objects that a person perceives, thinks about, feels about, and acts towards. But Husserl wanted to bracket any presuppositions about the *existence* of those objects in order to focus on and understand the active, constituting role that he believed consciousness plays in any and every experience. That?s to say, he didn?t believe that an experience is simply a passive copy or reflection of its object. >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200909/3c064f60/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Wed Sep 9 18:24:57 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 21:24:57 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a bit of breaking news (the good kind) In-Reply-To: References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Good evening. David talks more about the exciting news, and various other topics, here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/uhwtsz__;!!Mih3wA!TBGDQ2UIdikoL3OQEcb5LVisqMWLC0yXwYVUMvDoiCDvvw3Jj1HAfQiP2Dm0sxySxNfdPw$ "David Kellogg on Pedology and the Importance of Word Meaning" I appreciate David's insights and his time -- and if you have some extra time, you might enjoy it too. Thanks, Anthony On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 8:33 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > This is really great work, David. Congratulations. I think we're all > busting to read this material. Springer are definitely on a winner here. > > andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 10/09/2020 9:43 am, David Kellogg wrote: > > We have already published three volumes in Korean, Bronwyn. We'll do the > fourth volume next year. > > But the contract we are getting from Springer is for a two-volume English > edition, with one volume published ini 2021 and the final volume in 2022. > > This year? We SHOULD have Vol. 2 out in English by December. Nikolai is > still struggling to tighten up some of my looser translations.... > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: > Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, > Hasan, and Vygotsky > > Some free e-prints today available at: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!TBGDQ2UIdikoL3OQEcb5LVisqMWLC0yXwYVUMvDoiCDvvw3Jj1HAfQiP2Dm0sxw5UPCINw$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TBGDQ2UIdikoL3OQEcb5LVisqMWLC0yXwYVUMvDoiCDvvw3Jj1HAfQiP2Dm0sxza68Imow$ > > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 8:28 AM Bronwyn Parkin > wrote: > >> This is exciting. I couldn?t pick up from the video whether it is being >> translated into Korean or English David. What is the timeline on >> publication? >> >> Thank you, Bronwyn >> >> >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *On Behalf Of *Anthony Barra >> *Sent:* Thursday, 10 September 2020 1:01 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] a bit of breaking news (the good kind) >> >> >> >> from DK: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/e8vtsz__;!!Mih3wA!TBGDQ2UIdikoL3OQEcb5LVisqMWLC0yXwYVUMvDoiCDvvw3Jj1HAfQiP2Dm0sxzO4Tn4Lw$ >> >> >> >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200909/15f29acd/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Sep 10 17:33:37 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 17:33:37 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a bit of breaking news (the good kind) In-Reply-To: References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: David-- Your excavation of Vygotsky's pedology is really important in helping us get a more accurate picture of LSV's project,. I am convinced as a result of what I have read in the pedology literature so far that LSV was doing pedology as his central line of development. This not only makes sense internally, but it explains something that has long puzzled me. Why did Luria send me *The Mental Development of Children* *and the Process of Instruction* (1935), a volume which hides its origins in pedology. I never hear Luria use either the word pedology and of course he would not have! It was a closed topic after the 1936 Party resolution which still had people plenty worried in 1962. It was never discussed in my presence. Now I can notice the absence. And all the while Luria and colleagues were dribbling out bits and pieces "from the archives" to a variety of different disciplinary journals and collections of essays where the work was clearly relevant without having to reveal its sources. They must have done a reasonably good job. They were still alive to educate me in 1962. This is a real revisionist reconstruction people can work from. mike of On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 5:33 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > This is really great work, David. Congratulations. I think we're > > all busting to read this material. Springer are definitely on a > > winner here. > > > andy > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > Hegel for Social > > Movements > > > > Home > > Page > > > > > On 10/09/2020 9:43 am, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > We have already published three volumes in Korean, > > Bronwyn. We'll do the fourth volume next year. > > > > > > > But the contract we are getting from Springer is for a > > two-volume English edition, with one volume published ini 2021 > > and the final volume in 2022. > > > > > > > > This year? We SHOULD have Vol. 2 out in English by > > December. Nikolai is still struggling to tighten up some of my > > looser translations.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > Sangmyung University > > > > > > > > New > > article in > > Mind, Culture, > > and Activity: > > > Realizations: non-causal but real > > relationships > > in and between > > Halliday, > > Hasan, and > > Vygotsky > > > > > > > > > > Some free e-prints today available at: > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!TmqBibNXFOfh5A7oSWCIwnmlt0DIgFKujoxYgb3ntV3BkOZXjchOnIQdkz_lSwJICKsWtw$ > > > > > > > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's > > Pedological > > Works Volume > > One: > > Foundations of > > Pedology" > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TmqBibNXFOfh5A7oSWCIwnmlt0DIgFKujoxYgb3ntV3BkOZXjchOnIQdkz_lSwISi800Rw$ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 8:28 > > AM Bronwyn Parkin > > wrote: > > > > > >> >> >> >> >> >> This is exciting. I couldn?t >> >> pick up from the video whether it is being translated >> >> into Korean or English David. What is the timeline on >> >> publication? >> >> >> Thank you, Bronwyn >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> >> >> *On Behalf Of *Anthony Barra >> >> >> *Sent:* Thursday, 10 September 2020 1:01 AM >> >> >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >> >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] a bit of breaking news (the >> >> good kind) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> from DK: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/e8vtsz__;!!Mih3wA!TmqBibNXFOfh5A7oSWCIwnmlt0DIgFKujoxYgb3ntV3BkOZXjchOnIQdkz_lSwI7Ks_6zw$ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200910/c831f66b/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Sat Sep 12 07:23:08 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 09:23:08 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to?? Martin From john.crippsclark@deakin.edu.au Sat Sep 12 18:59:39 2020 From: john.crippsclark@deakin.edu.au (John Cripps Clark) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 01:59:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> Message-ID: <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves (which I assume you are referring to) is a much more villainous act than was originally portrayed and reflects the venal racism not only of the company but also of the State Government. For those not familiar with this shocking crime, the $80b Anglo Australian mining company which on Sunday 24th of May blew up a site sacred to the Puutu Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) traditional owners and occupied for 46,000 years at least, to extend iron ore mining. "?It?s one of the most sacred sites in the Pilbara region ? we wanted to have that area protected,? PKKP director Burchell Hayes. The traditional owners tried desperately to stop the blast once they became aware it was impending. At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there was a misunderstanding" but and, after much outrage, the three members of the executive had their multi million dollar bonuses reduced. It has subsequently emerged that Rio Tinto had contracted lawyers to oppose any injunctions before the crime was committed. The chief executive and two of his underlings have resigned. The crime was legal and was made possible by State Government laws which are stacked in favour of miners. Assessments of the cultural and environmental significance are made with little investigation and remain in place for decades and have rarely been successfully be challenged. No permission to destroy heritage sites in WA has been refused (and there have been 463 applications). https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ It is not as if we didn?t know that this would happen. Norway's pension fund divested their holdings in Rio Tinto in 2008: "Exclusion of a company from the Fund reflects our unwillingness to run an unacceptable risk of contributing to grossly unethical conduct. The Council on Ethics has concluded that Rio Tinto is directly involved, through its participation in the Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the severe environmental damage caused by that mining operation." ??Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of Finance A useful background briefing of indigenous rights in Australia: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ ?On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin Packer" wrote: Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to?? Martin Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for the named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise the sender by return email or telephone. Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments are error or virus free. From andyb@marxists.org Sat Sep 12 19:16:48 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 12:16:48 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> Message-ID: <0eaaadeb-a351-aab9-e396-93c0d903d1e7@marxists.org> I think the entire country was struck speechless when we learnt that a site - with 47,000 year old cave art and human remains which were 8,000 years old, genetically found to be ancestors of the people living in the area today - were bulldozed for the sake of a small sum of money it would have cost to carry on their mining with a different approach. And we learnt that they had a long list of other ancient sites which they planned to destroy in the future, and that it was all approved by the State government and legal within Federal government legislation. All legal! And their lawyers had worked extremely deviously to make it legal, getting the formal approval of the local PKK people who could not possibly have understood what they were signing, and then they waiting about 8 years before moving in without warning with bulldozers. It is utterly unspeakable and shameful and extremely distressing. As soon it came to light, there was a Senate enquiry initiated. It won't happen again. The shareholders of RTZ then demanded the sacking of the top 3 CEOs, but ... get this ... they in fact remain in place until a replacement is appointed! The indigenous representatives are calling for the sacking of the entire Board. But they have actually committed no crime under Australian law. This is the real outrage. Someone needs to go to some international court to make someone pay. But is /has /shocked people, and the local people have not even spoken yet. All thee sites need to be placed under Federal protection as National Parks. It is amazing that this has not been done before. The sites are all so remote that they can't be guarded. Tourists can get in their land-rover and go and graffiti over cave art which is thousands of years old. It's not just this one area. There are lots of such sites. So precious. The practice of employing the local indigenous people are land care workers is in place in many national parks, but we need more of this and they need to get technology to help. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/09/2020 12:23 am, Martin Packer wrote: > Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to?? > > Martin > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200913/41aec180/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Sun Sep 13 11:53:04 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 13:53:04 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> Message-ID: <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> Thanks, John and Andy, I suppose that I am naive, for this event astonishes me in so many different ways. I would have assumed that the land title or native title granted to indigenous peoples over some territory in Australia would have included the Juuken Gorge caves. I would have assumed that these caves were a national cultural heritage site, or even a world cultural heritage site. I would have assumed that indigenous rights would have more importance to the Australian government, and indeed to the Australian people. I would have assumed that, while mining is apparently of great economic importance to the country, the government would have considered the economic value of this site for tourism, or simply the impact that destroying the caves would have on Australia?s reputation. And while I suppose that unbridled rapaciousness on the part of an international mining company is hardly a surprise, I would have thought that Rio Tinto would also have considered the negative publicity that their actions would create. How can we express our displeasure to the various parties involved? Are there petitions that one can sign? Or Twitter accounts to which one can tweet? I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if his bonus this year would have been A$4.9 million. Perhaps he could donate a few years of his salary to establish a foundation that could work for indigenous peoples? rights. sadly Martin > On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps Clark wrote: > > The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves (which I assume you are referring to) is a much more villainous act than was originally portrayed and reflects the venal racism not only of the company but also of the State Government. For those not familiar with this shocking crime, the $80b Anglo Australian mining company which on Sunday 24th of May blew up a site sacred to the Puutu Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) traditional owners and occupied for 46,000 years at least, to extend iron ore mining. "?It?s one of the most sacred sites in the Pilbara region ? we wanted to have that area protected,? PKKP director Burchell Hayes. The traditional owners tried desperately to stop the blast once they became aware it was impending. > > At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there was a misunderstanding" but and, after much outrage, the three members of the executive had their multi million dollar bonuses reduced. It has subsequently emerged that Rio Tinto had contracted lawyers to oppose any injunctions before the crime was committed. The chief executive and two of his underlings have resigned. > > The crime was legal and was made possible by State Government laws which are stacked in favour of miners. Assessments of the cultural and environmental significance are made with little investigation and remain in place for decades and have rarely been successfully be challenged. No permission to destroy heritage sites in WA has been refused (and there have been 463 applications). https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ > > It is not as if we didn?t know that this would happen. Norway's pension fund divested their holdings in Rio Tinto in 2008: "Exclusion of a company from the Fund reflects our unwillingness to run an unacceptable risk of contributing to grossly unethical conduct. The Council on Ethics has concluded that Rio Tinto is directly involved, through its participation in the Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the severe environmental damage caused by that mining operation." > ??Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of Finance > > A useful background briefing of indigenous rights in Australia: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ > > ?On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin Packer" wrote: > > Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to?? > > Martin > > > > Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for the named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise the sender by return email or telephone. > > Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments are error or virus free. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200913/408daa6f/attachment.html From h2cmng@yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 13 15:13:26 2020 From: h2cmng@yahoo.co.uk (peter jones) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 22:13:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> Message-ID: <599505923.9049287.1600035206044@mail.yahoo.com> I was shocked by this and still am - as Martin notes what should be a World cultural heritage site... Fascinated by Australia - Oceania and as for the UK's history with many nations troubled by events past and present, I feel hypocritical in making the above claim... Always wonder about the cultural neutrality of the conceptual framework / model I study and champion and what African, Aboriginal and other indigenous peoples might have to teach on 'ways' to view health, humanity. This wanton destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves confirms anything but ESR, social and corporate responsibility: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://hodges-model.blogspot.com/2020/06/Juukan-gorge-heritage-management-processes.html__;!!Mih3wA!UO2IzJ3y6bPb4EdVVc_Grdb2WKo0wkwYZOIBa7sZRDS712BiKVEejuS-IJTnbv1hOca-Ug$ Where was the '360 vision' that the 'C-Suite' are supposed to display?: Due South - 360 degree perspectives This is why I advocate for integrative tools, no panacea but I'm sure it could help: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://hodges-model.blogspot.com/2017/03/guns-coal-mine-fields.html__;!!Mih3wA!UO2IzJ3y6bPb4EdVVc_Grdb2WKo0wkwYZOIBa7sZRDS712BiKVEejuS-IJTnbv2Dfcr1EQ$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://hodges-model.blogspot.com/2017/03/great-barriers.html__;!!Mih3wA!UO2IzJ3y6bPb4EdVVc_Grdb2WKo0wkwYZOIBa7sZRDS712BiKVEejuS-IJTnbv0UPp9eWQ$ Looking at the night sky I see a tale only half-spoken. I would love to see and hear the other half - one day: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://hodges-model.blogspot.com/2012/07/icn-congress-in-australia-2013.html__;!!Mih3wA!UO2IzJ3y6bPb4EdVVc_Grdb2WKo0wkwYZOIBa7sZRDS712BiKVEejuS-IJTnbv18U3s5cg$ - even though such travel is much more 'expensive' in so many ways... Peter Jones Community Mental Health Nurse, Tutor & Researcher Early Intervention Team - Psychoses, Salford, UK Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/__;!!Mih3wA!UO2IzJ3y6bPb4EdVVc_Grdb2WKo0wkwYZOIBa7sZRDS712BiKVEejuS-IJTnbv3NTSOx1g$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://twitter.com/h2cm__;!!Mih3wA!UO2IzJ3y6bPb4EdVVc_Grdb2WKo0wkwYZOIBa7sZRDS712BiKVEejuS-IJTnbv00O8v3NQ$ On Sunday, 13 September 2020, 20:01:57 BST, Martin Packer wrote: Thanks, John and Andy, I suppose that I am naive, for this event astonishes me in so many different ways. I would have assumed that the land title or native title granted to indigenous peoples over some territory in Australia would have included the?Juuken Gorge caves. I would have assumed that these caves were a national cultural heritage site, or even a world cultural heritage site. I would have assumed that indigenous rights would have more importance to the Australian government, and indeed to the Australian people. I would have assumed that, while mining is apparently of great economic importance to the country, the government would have considered the economic value of this site for tourism, or simply the impact that destroying the caves would have on Australia?s reputation. And while I suppose that unbridled rapaciousness on the part of an international mining company is hardly a surprise, I would have thought that Rio Tinto would also have considered the negative publicity that their actions would create. How can we express our displeasure to the various parties involved? Are there petitions that one can sign? Or Twitter accounts to which one can tweet? I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if his bonus this year would have been A$4.9 million. Perhaps he could donate a few years of his salary to establish a foundation that could work for indigenous peoples? rights. sadly? Martin On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps Clark wrote: The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves (which I assume you are referring to) is a much more villainous act than was originally portrayed and reflects the venal racism not only of the company but also of the State Government. For those not familiar with this shocking crime, the $80b Anglo Australian mining company which on Sunday 24th of May blew up a site sacred to the Puutu Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) traditional owners and occupied for 46,000 years at least, to extend iron ore mining. "?It?s one of the most sacred sites in the Pilbara region ? we wanted to have that area protected,? PKKP director Burchell Hayes. The traditional owners tried desperately to stop the blast once they became aware it was impending. At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there was a misunderstanding" but and, after much outrage, the three members of the executive had their multi million dollar bonuses reduced. It has subsequently emerged that Rio Tinto had contracted lawyers to oppose any injunctions before the crime was committed. The chief executive and two of his underlings have resigned. The crime was legal and was made possible by State Government laws which are stacked in favour of miners. Assessments of the cultural and environmental significance are made with little investigation and remain in place for decades and have rarely been successfully be challenged. No permission to destroy heritage sites in WA has been refused (and there have been 463 applications). https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ It is not as if we didn?t know that this would happen. Norway's pension fund divested their holdings in Rio Tinto in 2008: "Exclusion of a company from the Fund reflects our unwillingness to run an unacceptable risk of contributing to grossly unethical conduct. The Council on Ethics has concluded that Rio Tinto is directly involved, through its participation in the Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the severe environmental damage caused by that mining operation." ?????Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of Finance A useful background briefing of indigenous rights in Australia: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ ?On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin Packer" wrote: ???Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to?? ???Martin Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for the named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise the sender by return email or telephone. Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments are error or virus free. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200913/baed26e0/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Sun Sep 13 18:43:23 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 11:43:23 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> Message-ID: <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list before noticing that John had already responded, and John is much better informed than me about these matters, and yet I spoke as if he didn't exist. My apologies. These caves are nothing for tourism. They are too remote and there are others more accessible. I believe the caves have been under Native Title as a result of a bitter struggle to protect them by the local people in the 1990s. This means that RTZ had to get permission from the PKK people. The lawyers swindled them. In my view, all these sites which are not only part of Aboriginal heritage (there are places which have physical markers of their status but are sacred to the local people) but self-evidently of *world* heritage. But I don't think these caves were registered as World Heritage. I have not heard the discussion about this (John?). No-one wants to say this, I think, because it implies that Indigenous values are somehow less important than human values. For example, under the law as it stands the PKK Land Council would have a right to let RTZ destroy the caves and maybe a million dollars or two in the bank or a new school, would be enough. This is not a hypothetical. One of the reasons that the Indigenous people remain impoverished even where they have Native Title over large areas of land, is that they live, after all, in a capitalist country and Native title cannot be sold. It is not a commodity. Therefore it is not a form of wealth. You can't get a mortgage to build a house on land you own by Native title.? You can't sell a block to a farmer so you can buy agricultural equipment to farm another block. In short, by blocking the Indigenous people from monetising their land rights we trap them in poverty. In general, the indigenous people are happy to forgo tourist income to protect their sacred sites (e.g. Uluru) and I don't doubt for an instant, that if they'd been properly consulted they never would have agreed to the destruction of the caves. Obviously. But they do have to have rights to trade with their land. But also the world needs to keep absolutely unique archaeological sites pristine and the local people should be supported by governments to do the work of protecting them on *our* behalf. Recognising the great cost entailed. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote: > Thanks, John and Andy, > > I suppose that I am naive, for this event astonishes me in > so many different ways. I would have assumed that the land > title or native title granted to indigenous peoples over > some territory in Australia would have included the?Juuken > Gorge caves. I would have assumed that these caves were a > national cultural heritage site, or even a world cultural > heritage site. I would have assumed that indigenous rights > would have more importance to the Australian government, > and indeed to the Australian people. I would have assumed > that, while mining is apparently of great economic > importance to the country, the government would have > considered the economic value of this site for tourism, or > simply the impact that destroying the caves would have on > Australia?s reputation. And while I suppose that unbridled > rapaciousness on the part of an international mining > company is hardly a surprise, I would have thought that > Rio Tinto would also have considered the negative > publicity that their actions would create. > > How can we express our displeasure to the various parties > involved? Are there petitions that one can sign? Or > Twitter accounts to which one can tweet? > > I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO Jean-Sebastien > Jacques, if his bonus this year would have been A$4.9 > million. Perhaps he could donate a few years of his salary > to establish a foundation that could work for indigenous > peoples? rights. > > sadly > > Martin > > > > >> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps Clark >> > > wrote: >> >> The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves (which I >> assume you are referring to) is a much more villainous >> act than was originally portrayed and reflects the venal >> racism not only of the company but also of the State >> Government. For those not familiar with this shocking >> crime, the $80b Anglo Australian mining company which on >> Sunday 24th of May blew up a site sacred to the Puutu >> Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) traditional owners and >> occupied for 46,000 years at least, to extend iron ore >> mining. "?It?s one of the most sacred sites in the >> Pilbara region ? we wanted to have that area protected,? >> PKKP director Burchell Hayes. The traditional owners >> tried desperately to stop the blast once they became >> aware it was impending. >> >> At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there was a >> misunderstanding" but and, after much outrage, the three >> members of the executive had their multi million dollar >> bonuses reduced. It has subsequently emerged that Rio >> Tinto had contracted lawyers to oppose any injunctions >> before the crime was committed. The chief executive and >> two of his underlings have resigned. >> >> The crime was legal and was made possible by State >> Government laws which are stacked in favour of miners. >> Assessments of the cultural and environmental >> significance are made with little investigation and >> remain in place for decades and have rarely been >> successfully be challenged. No permission to destroy >> heritage sites in WA has been refused (and there have >> been 463 applications). >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ >> >> >> It is not as if we didn?t know that this would happen. >> Norway's pension fund divested their holdings in Rio >> Tinto in 2008: "Exclusion of a company from the Fund >> reflects our unwillingness to run an unacceptable risk of >> contributing to grossly unethical conduct. The Council on >> Ethics has concluded that Rio Tinto is directly involved, >> through its participation in the Grasberg mine in >> Indonesia, in the severe environmental damage caused by >> that mining operation." >> ?????Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of Finance >> >> A useful background briefing of indigenous rights in >> Australia: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ >> >> >> ?On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of >> Martin Packer" > on behalf of >> mpacker@cantab.net > wrote: >> >> ???Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to?? >> >> ???Martin >> >> >> >> Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended >> solely for the named addressee and are confidential; any >> unauthorised use, reproduction or storage of the contents >> is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email >> in error, please delete it and any attachments >> immediately and advise the sender by return email or >> telephone. >> >> Deakin University does not warrant that this email and >> any attachments are error or virus free. >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200914/4269ff64/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Sun Sep 13 19:09:51 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 12:09:51 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> Message-ID: <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> Er. " *NO *physical markers" ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/09/2020 11:43 am, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list before noticing > that John had already responded, and John is much better > informed than me about these matters, and yet I spoke as > if he didn't exist. My apologies. > > These caves are nothing for tourism. They are too remote > and there are others more accessible. I believe the caves > have been under Native Title as a result of a bitter > struggle to protect them by the local people in the 1990s. > This means that RTZ had to get permission from the PKK > people. The lawyers swindled them. > > In my view, all these sites which are not only part of > Aboriginal heritage (there are places which have *NO > *physical markers of their status but are sacred to the > local people) but self-evidently of *world* heritage. But > I don't think these caves were registered as World > Heritage. I have not heard the discussion about this > (John?). No-one wants to say this, I think, because it > implies that Indigenous values are somehow less important > than human values. For example, under the law as it stands > the PKK Land Council would have a right to let RTZ destroy > the caves and maybe a million dollars or two in the bank > or a new school, would be enough. This is not a > hypothetical. One of the reasons that the Indigenous > people remain impoverished even where they have Native > Title over large areas of land, is that they live, after > all, in a capitalist country and Native title cannot be > sold. It is not a commodity. Therefore it is not a form of > wealth. You can't get a mortgage to build a house on land > you own by Native title.? You can't sell a block to a > farmer so you can buy agricultural equipment to farm > another block. In short, by blocking the Indigenous people > from monetising their land rights we trap them in poverty. > In general, the indigenous people are happy to forgo > tourist income to protect their sacred sites (e.g. Uluru) > and I don't doubt for an instant, that if they'd been > properly consulted they never would have agreed to the > destruction of the caves. Obviously. But they do have to > have rights to trade with their land. But also the world > needs to keep absolutely unique archaeological sites > pristine and the local people should be supported by > governments to do the work of protecting them on *our* > behalf. Recognising the great cost entailed. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote: >> Thanks, John and Andy, >> >> I suppose that I am naive, for this event astonishes me >> in so many different ways. I would have assumed that the >> land title or native title granted to indigenous peoples >> over some territory in Australia would have included >> the?Juuken Gorge caves. I would have assumed that these >> caves were a national cultural heritage site, or even a >> world cultural heritage site. I would have assumed that >> indigenous rights would have more importance to the >> Australian government, and indeed to the Australian >> people. I would have assumed that, while mining is >> apparently of great economic importance to the country, >> the government would have considered the economic value >> of this site for tourism, or simply the impact that >> destroying the caves would have on Australia?s >> reputation. And while I suppose that unbridled >> rapaciousness on the part of an international mining >> company is hardly a surprise, I would have thought that >> Rio Tinto would also have considered the negative >> publicity that their actions would create. >> >> How can we express our displeasure to the various parties >> involved? Are there petitions that one can sign? Or >> Twitter accounts to which one can tweet? >> >> I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO >> Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if his bonus this year would have >> been A$4.9 million. Perhaps he could donate a few years >> of his salary to establish a foundation that could work >> for indigenous peoples? rights. >> >> sadly >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps Clark >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves (which I >>> assume you are referring to) is a much more villainous >>> act than was originally portrayed and reflects the venal >>> racism not only of the company but also of the State >>> Government. For those not familiar with this shocking >>> crime, the $80b Anglo Australian mining company which on >>> Sunday 24th of May blew up a site sacred to the Puutu >>> Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) traditional owners and >>> occupied for 46,000 years at least, to extend iron ore >>> mining. "?It?s one of the most sacred sites in the >>> Pilbara region ? we wanted to have that area protected,? >>> PKKP director Burchell Hayes. The traditional owners >>> tried desperately to stop the blast once they became >>> aware it was impending. >>> >>> At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there was a >>> misunderstanding" but and, after much outrage, the three >>> members of the executive had their multi million dollar >>> bonuses reduced. It has subsequently emerged that Rio >>> Tinto had contracted lawyers to oppose any injunctions >>> before the crime was committed. The chief executive and >>> two of his underlings have resigned. >>> >>> The crime was legal and was made possible by State >>> Government laws which are stacked in favour of miners. >>> Assessments of the cultural and environmental >>> significance are made with little investigation and >>> remain in place for decades and have rarely been >>> successfully be challenged. No permission to destroy >>> heritage sites in WA has been refused (and there have >>> been 463 applications). >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ >>> >>> >>> It is not as if we didn?t know that this would happen. >>> Norway's pension fund divested their holdings in Rio >>> Tinto in 2008: "Exclusion of a company from the Fund >>> reflects our unwillingness to run an unacceptable risk >>> of contributing to grossly unethical conduct. The >>> Council on Ethics has concluded that Rio Tinto is >>> directly involved, through its participation in the >>> Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the severe environmental >>> damage caused by that mining operation." >>> ?????Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of Finance >>> >>> A useful background briefing of indigenous rights in >>> Australia: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ >>> >>> >>> ?On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of >>> Martin Packer" >> on behalf of >>> mpacker@cantab.net > wrote: >>> >>> ???Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to?? >>> >>> ???Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> Important Notice: The contents of this email are >>> intended solely for the named addressee and are >>> confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or >>> storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you >>> have received this email in error, please delete it and >>> any attachments immediately and advise the sender by >>> return email or telephone. >>> >>> Deakin University does not warrant that this email and >>> any attachments are error or virus free. >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200914/65ea017e/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Sep 14 11:42:01 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 12:42:01 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> Message-ID: Martin, John and Andy Thanks to Martin for kicking off this topic and John and Andy for following up. I has amazed me to find, for me, how the RTZ narrative resonates with both Navajo and Pueblo narratives here in New Mexico. How evil RTZ is, but how wonderful the courage of our native peoples! Chaco Canyon IS a tourist destination here in New Mexico. Though there has been no destruction of the site that, based on Native American narratives and the efforts of archeologists, is architecturally spectacular evidence of the pre-Colombian culture from which the present-day Pueblos come. What parallels RTZ activities on aboriginal lands in Australia is the drilling for gas and oil on Navajo lands surrounding Chaco and a rush to buy more rights while Trump is in power. There have been protests, though nothing as intense and effective as the Standing Rock protests to protect water on native lands to our north and east from gas and oil predation (the pipeline). Standing Rock was LED by Native Americans, many from the Navajo, Apache and Pueblo near me. I just saw yesterday a 30-year-old film that is one of the offerings of the Vision Maker Film Festival: Clear Cut. I recommend it, or at least a look at the wiki article about it. It couldn?t be more timely. It?s messy, where contention between environmental and logging interests and division WITHIN the native community (traditon vs. jobs) leave one stunned. What redeems a messy struggle is exactly what Andy says: The aboriginal people of the world do it for us! In the same way, when ?our? Pueblos put on feasts and invite us in to witness their dances, they do it for us. Perhaps you recall the movie ?Koyaniskaatsi?, la Hopi word that has been translated as "life out of balance". (The Hopis are a Puebloan people, descendants of the Chacoan culture. The Navajos and Apaches arrived here about the same time as the European colonizers, based on linguistic and genetic evidence.) If you live in New Mexico, you are around Pueblo people. If you are really lucky, and many of us are, you become friends with them and they invite you to share their food at the feasts! How generous is this? They do it for us. The RTZ narrative is not only destructive to cultural capital, it is implicated in natural capital (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/nov/23/monbiot-natural-capital-wrong-conservation__;!!Mih3wA!SBdL369rv5LA2eUVglK7x1RO_gnzeKTtEL3aixjV1TAMOI-HkqMNbHUWvJAN5h7atm8Krw$ ) via climate change. (The link here, to a Guardian article is available through the first link in John?s post). Here again we should look to our native peoples. There is credible research that concludes the climate change lengthens fire seasons but wrong-headed environmental policies make the fires more intense, hence less controllable. Add to this the incursion of housing into forested areas and the destruction is a doubly self-inflicted wound. And hold on for this one for the best CHAT connection: Native peoples of this continent used to set controlled burns to remove the kind of unburnt fuel to avoid such conflagrations. Today some of the best-trained and most effective firefighters in this country are Native Americans. Cultural capital. They do it for us, and their example from the past can serve us now. Cultural capital. I believe I have crowed before about New Mexico and our Native Americans. Australia has crowing rights as well. And, for standing proud, there?s nothing like an anthem. The best anthem music I have EVER heard comes from Australia: Yothu Yindi What a great project that brings together white people and people of color. What great creative collaboration. Andy, I am telling you again, project is a great unit of analysis, precisely because it brings together cognition and affect, because it embodies active orientation. In my country, it is pretty well agreed that the natives got screwed, across the political divide. Black Lives Matter is more complex, but there is hope that the question of race is now where LGBTQ issues were at the time of the AIDS crisis, in the last century. Back then we could never have guessed we would be where we are with non-gender-conforming acceptance now. Just saying, as much for myself as for anybody else listening. La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n Henry > On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Er. " NO physical markers" > > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 14/09/2020 11:43 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >> Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list before noticing that John had already responded, and John is much better informed than me about these matters, and yet I spoke as if he didn't exist. My apologies. >> >> These caves are nothing for tourism. They are too remote and there are others more accessible. I believe the caves have been under Native Title as a result of a bitter struggle to protect them by the local people in the 1990s. This means that RTZ had to get permission from the PKK people. The lawyers swindled them. >> >> In my view, all these sites which are not only part of Aboriginal heritage (there are places which have NO physical markers of their status but are sacred to the local people) but self-evidently of world heritage. But I don't think these caves were registered as World Heritage. I have not heard the discussion about this (John?). No-one wants to say this, I think, because it implies that Indigenous values are somehow less important than human values. For example, under the law as it stands the PKK Land Council would have a right to let RTZ destroy the caves and maybe a million dollars or two in the bank or a new school, would be enough. This is not a hypothetical. One of the reasons that the Indigenous people remain impoverished even where they have Native Title over large areas of land, is that they live, after all, in a capitalist country and Native title cannot be sold. It is not a commodity. Therefore it is not a form of wealth. You can't get a mortgage to build a house on land you own by Native title. You can't sell a block to a farmer so you can buy agricultural equipment to farm another block. In short, by blocking the Indigenous people from monetising their land rights we trap them in poverty. In general, the indigenous people are happy to forgo tourist income to protect their sacred sites (e.g. Uluru) and I don't doubt for an instant, that if they'd been properly consulted they never would have agreed to the destruction of the caves. Obviously. But they do have to have rights to trade with their land. But also the world needs to keep absolutely unique archaeological sites pristine and the local people should be supported by governments to do the work of protecting them on our behalf. Recognising the great cost entailed. >> >> Andy >> >> Andy Blunden >> Hegel for Social Movements >> Home Page >> On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>> Thanks, John and Andy, >>> >>> I suppose that I am naive, for this event astonishes me in so many different ways. I would have assumed that the land title or native title granted to indigenous peoples over some territory in Australia would have included the Juuken Gorge caves. I would have assumed that these caves were a national cultural heritage site, or even a world cultural heritage site. I would have assumed that indigenous rights would have more importance to the Australian government, and indeed to the Australian people. I would have assumed that, while mining is apparently of great economic importance to the country, the government would have considered the economic value of this site for tourism, or simply the impact that destroying the caves would have on Australia?s reputation. And while I suppose that unbridled rapaciousness on the part of an international mining company is hardly a surprise, I would have thought that Rio Tinto would also have considered the negative publicity that their actions would create. >>> >>> How can we express our displeasure to the various parties involved? Are there petitions that one can sign? Or Twitter accounts to which one can tweet? >>> >>> I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if his bonus this year would have been A$4.9 million. Perhaps he could donate a few years of his salary to establish a foundation that could work for indigenous peoples? rights. >>> >>> sadly >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps Clark > wrote: >>>> >>>> The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves (which I assume you are referring to) is a much more villainous act than was originally portrayed and reflects the venal racism not only of the company but also of the State Government. For those not familiar with this shocking crime, the $80b Anglo Australian mining company which on Sunday 24th of May blew up a site sacred to the Puutu Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) traditional owners and occupied for 46,000 years at least, to extend iron ore mining. "?It?s one of the most sacred sites in the Pilbara region ? we wanted to have that area protected,? PKKP director Burchell Hayes. The traditional owners tried desperately to stop the blast once they became aware it was impending. >>>> >>>> At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there was a misunderstanding" but and, after much outrage, the three members of the executive had their multi million dollar bonuses reduced. It has subsequently emerged that Rio Tinto had contracted lawyers to oppose any injunctions before the crime was committed. The chief executive and two of his underlings have resigned. >>>> >>>> The crime was legal and was made possible by State Government laws which are stacked in favour of miners. Assessments of the cultural and environmental significance are made with little investigation and remain in place for decades and have rarely been successfully be challenged. No permission to destroy heritage sites in WA has been refused (and there have been 463 applications). https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ >>>> >>>> It is not as if we didn?t know that this would happen. Norway's pension fund divested their holdings in Rio Tinto in 2008: "Exclusion of a company from the Fund reflects our unwillingness to run an unacceptable risk of contributing to grossly unethical conduct. The Council on Ethics has concluded that Rio Tinto is directly involved, through its participation in the Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the severe environmental damage caused by that mining operation." >>>> ??Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of Finance >>>> >>>> A useful background briefing of indigenous rights in Australia: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ >>>> >>>> ?On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin Packer" on behalf of mpacker@cantab.net > wrote: >>>> >>>> Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to?? >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for the named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise the sender by return email or telephone. >>>> >>>> Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments are error or virus free. >>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200914/ec8c8df1/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Sep 14 19:57:38 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 11:57:38 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> Message-ID: If you click on the link that Henry, and before him John, offered, you get the pro-natural-capital side of a debate in the pages of the Guardian on whether or not "nature" can be valued as capital and whether it is good or bad for nature for humans to do this. I think that in CHAT, we are indebted to Marx for many things, but surely one debt we would do well not to disavow is Marx's insistence (in Critique of the Gotha programme and elsewhere) that nature is NOT capital: on the contrary, humans and all of their various property forms from communism to capitalism must be considered peculiar forms of nature. This is a discussion that CHAT needs to have if we are going to retain the AT in CHAT. I disagree with Peter Jones on many many things, but one thing I heartily agree with him on is the idea that Leontiev brings an intensely anti-naturalistic view of activity into activity theory--humans acting as subjects on passive environments to produce beneficial outcomes. Marx had a better idea: in the Ethnological Notebooks, he shows us that capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). Western capitalism, with its idea of nature as capital, is really just one extreme variant. In Marx's columns on the Sepoy rebellion and the Taiping rebellion, he even posits an "Asiantic mode of production" that had virtually nothing to do with feudalism. So to say that South Korea and Japan are equally capitalist societies is really a little like saying that China and the USSR were equally non-capitalist. Deus Sive Natura: and neither one is capital. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky Some free e-prints today available at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!W-RPX1ECIuKav0e-i1es3roVHR0WUtjgmoG2iARQqbybBsxElYTIACu53v3cWm487oUiBw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!W-RPX1ECIuKav0e-i1es3roVHR0WUtjgmoG2iARQqbybBsxElYTIACu53v3cWm7NjX5sJQ$ On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 3:43 AM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Martin, John and Andy > Thanks to Martin for kicking off this topic and John and Andy for > following up. I has amazed me to find, for me, how the RTZ narrative > resonates with both Navajo and Pueblo narratives here in New Mexico. How > evil RTZ is, but how wonderful the courage of our native peoples! > > Chaco Canyon IS a tourist destination here in New Mexico. Though there has > been no destruction of the site that, based on Native American narratives > and the efforts of archeologists, is architecturally spectacular evidence > of the pre-Colombian culture from which the present-day Pueblos come. What > parallels RTZ activities on aboriginal lands in Australia is the drilling > for gas and oil on Navajo lands surrounding Chaco and a rush to buy more > rights while Trump is in power. There have been protests, though nothing as > intense and effective as the Standing Rock protests to protect water on > native lands to our north and east from gas and oil predation (the > pipeline). Standing Rock was LED by Native Americans, many from the Navajo, > Apache and Pueblo near me. > > I just saw yesterday a 30-year-old film that is one of the offerings of > the Vision Maker Film Festival: Clear Cut. I recommend it, or at least a > look at the wiki article about it. It couldn?t be more timely. It?s messy, > where contention between environmental and logging interests and division > WITHIN the native community (traditon vs. jobs) leave one stunned. What > redeems a messy struggle is exactly what Andy says: The aboriginal people > of the world do it for us! In the same way, when ?our? Pueblos put on > feasts and invite us in to witness their dances, they do it for us. Perhaps > you recall the movie ?Koyaniskaatsi?, la Hopi word that has been translated > as "life out of balance". (The Hopis are a Puebloan people, descendants of > the Chacoan culture. The Navajos and Apaches arrived here about the same > time as the European colonizers, based on linguistic and genetic evidence.) > If you live in New Mexico, you are around Pueblo people. If you are really > lucky, and many of us are, you become friends with them and they invite you > to share their food at the feasts! How generous is this? They do it for us. > > The RTZ narrative is not only destructive to cultural capital, it is > implicated in natural capital ( > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/nov/23/monbiot-natural-capital-wrong-conservation__;!!Mih3wA!W-RPX1ECIuKav0e-i1es3roVHR0WUtjgmoG2iARQqbybBsxElYTIACu53v3cWm4JcZxp1w$ > ) > via climate change. (The link here, to a Guardian article is available > through the first link in John?s post). Here again we should look to our > native peoples. There is credible research that concludes the climate > change lengthens fire seasons but wrong-headed environmental policies make > the fires more intense, hence less controllable. Add to this the incursion > of housing into forested areas and the destruction is a doubly > self-inflicted wound. And hold on for this one for the best CHAT > connection: Native peoples of this continent used to set controlled burns > to remove the kind of unburnt fuel to avoid such conflagrations. Today some > of the best-trained and most effective firefighters in this country are > Native Americans. Cultural capital. They do it for us, and their example > from the past can serve us now. Cultural capital. > > I believe I have crowed before about New Mexico and our Native Americans. > Australia has crowing rights as well. And, for standing proud, there?s > nothing like an anthem. The best anthem music I have EVER heard comes from > Australia: Yothu Yindi What a great project that brings together white > people and people of color. What great creative collaboration. Andy, I am > telling you again, project is a great unit of analysis, precisely because > it brings together cognition and affect, because it embodies active > orientation. In my country, it is pretty well agreed that the natives got > screwed, across the political divide. Black Lives Matter is more complex, > but there is hope that the question of race is now where LGBTQ issues were > at the time of the AIDS crisis, in the last century. Back then we could > never have guessed we would be where we are with non-gender-conforming > acceptance now. Just saying, as much for myself as for anybody else > listening. > > La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n > Henry > > > > > > > On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Er. " *NO *physical markers" > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 14/09/2020 11:43 am, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list before noticing that John had > already responded, and John is much better informed than me about these > matters, and yet I spoke as if he didn't exist. My apologies. > > These caves are nothing for tourism. They are too remote and there are > others more accessible. I believe the caves have been under Native Title as > a result of a bitter struggle to protect them by the local people in the > 1990s. This means that RTZ had to get permission from the PKK people. The > lawyers swindled them. > > In my view, all these sites which are not only part of Aboriginal heritage > (there are places which have *NO *physical markers of their status but > are sacred to the local people) but self-evidently of *world* heritage. > But I don't think these caves were registered as World Heritage. I have not > heard the discussion about this (John?). No-one wants to say this, I think, > because it implies that Indigenous values are somehow less important than > human values. For example, under the law as it stands the PKK Land Council > would have a right to let RTZ destroy the caves and maybe a million dollars > or two in the bank or a new school, would be enough. This is not a > hypothetical. One of the reasons that the Indigenous people remain > impoverished even where they have Native Title over large areas of land, is > that they live, after all, in a capitalist country and Native title cannot > be sold. It is not a commodity. Therefore it is not a form of wealth. You > can't get a mortgage to build a house on land you own by Native title. You > can't sell a block to a farmer so you can buy agricultural equipment to > farm another block. In short, by blocking the Indigenous people from > monetising their land rights we trap them in poverty. In general, the > indigenous people are happy to forgo tourist income to protect their sacred > sites (e.g. Uluru) and I don't doubt for an instant, that if they'd been > properly consulted they never would have agreed to the destruction of the > caves. Obviously. But they do have to have rights to trade with their land. > But also the world needs to keep absolutely unique archaeological sites > pristine and the local people should be supported by governments to do the > work of protecting them on *our* behalf. Recognising the great cost > entailed. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote: > > Thanks, John and Andy, > > I suppose that I am naive, for this event astonishes me in so many > different ways. I would have assumed that the land title or native title > granted to indigenous peoples over some territory in Australia would have > included the Juuken Gorge caves. I would have assumed that these caves were > a national cultural heritage site, or even a world cultural heritage site. > I would have assumed that indigenous rights would have more importance to > the Australian government, and indeed to the Australian people. I would > have assumed that, while mining is apparently of great economic importance > to the country, the government would have considered the economic value of > this site for tourism, or simply the impact that destroying the caves would > have on Australia?s reputation. And while I suppose that unbridled > rapaciousness on the part of an international mining company is hardly a > surprise, I would have thought that Rio Tinto would also have considered > the negative publicity that their actions would create. > > How can we express our displeasure to the various parties involved? Are > there petitions that one can sign? Or Twitter accounts to which one can > tweet? > > I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if his > bonus this year would have been A$4.9 million. Perhaps he could donate a > few years of his salary to establish a foundation that could work for > indigenous peoples? rights. > > sadly > > Martin > > > > > On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps Clark < > john.crippsclark@deakin.edu.au> wrote: > > The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves (which I assume you are > referring to) is a much more villainous act than was originally portrayed > and reflects the venal racism not only of the company but also of the State > Government. For those not familiar with this shocking crime, the $80b Anglo > Australian mining company which on Sunday 24th of May blew up a site sacred > to the Puutu Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) traditional owners and > occupied for 46,000 years at least, to extend iron ore mining. "?It?s one > of the most sacred sites in the Pilbara region ? we wanted to have that > area protected,? PKKP director Burchell Hayes. The traditional owners tried > desperately to stop the blast once they became aware it was impending. > > At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there was a misunderstanding" but > and, after much outrage, the three members of the executive had their multi > million dollar bonuses reduced. It has subsequently emerged that Rio Tinto > had contracted lawyers to oppose any injunctions before the crime was > committed. The chief executive and two of his underlings have resigned. > > The crime was legal and was made possible by State Government laws which > are stacked in favour of miners. Assessments of the cultural and > environmental significance are made with little investigation and remain in > place for decades and have rarely been successfully be challenged. No > permission to destroy heritage sites in WA has been refused (and there have > been 463 applications). > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ > > It is not as if we didn?t know that this would happen. Norway's pension > fund divested their holdings in Rio Tinto in 2008: "Exclusion of a company > from the Fund reflects our unwillingness to run an unacceptable risk of > contributing to grossly unethical conduct. The Council on Ethics has > concluded that Rio Tinto is directly involved, through its participation in > the Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the severe environmental damage caused > by that mining operation." > ? Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of Finance > > A useful background briefing of indigenous rights in Australia: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ > > ?On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of > Martin Packer" mpacker@cantab.net> wrote: > > Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to?? > > Martin > > > > Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for the > named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or > storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this > email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise > the sender by return email or telephone. > > Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments are > error or virus free. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200915/8ca4aecb/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Mon Sep 14 21:35:50 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 14:35:50 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> Message-ID: I'm with Marx on this one, andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 15/09/2020 12:57 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > If you click on the link that Henry, and before him John, > offered, you get the pro-natural-capital side of a debate > in the pages of the Guardian on whether or not "nature" > can be valued as capital and whether it is good or bad for > nature for humans to do this. I think that in CHAT, we are > indebted to Marx for many things, but surely one debt we > would do well not to disavow is Marx's insistence (in > Critique of the Gotha programme and elsewhere) that nature > is NOT capital: on the contrary, humans and all of their > various property forms from communism to capitalism must > be considered peculiar forms of nature. This is a > discussion that CHAT needs to have if we are going to > retain the AT in CHAT. I disagree with Peter Jones on many > many things, but one thing I heartily agree with him on is > the idea that Leontiev brings an intensely > anti-naturalistic view of activity into activity > theory--humans acting as subjects on passive environments > to produce beneficial outcomes. > > Marx had a better idea: in the Ethnological Notebooks, he > shows us that capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as > capital, is no universal stage (contrary to what Stalin > taught). Western capitalism, with its idea of nature as > capital, is really? just one extreme variant. In Marx's > columns on the Sepoy rebellion and the Taiping rebellion, > he even posits an "Asiantic mode of production" that had > virtually nothing to do with feudalism. So to say that > South Korea and Japan are equally capitalist societies is > really a little like saying that China and the USSR were > equally non-capitalist. Deus Sive Natura: and neither one > is capital. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: > Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and > between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky > > Some free e-prints today available at: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!TdywocTe4MSkN-NRqk2OyGtyDrQIWQoS3DPbLBdb4XFmAZMm8cQ8tyJwLNyOKH-halUcUQ$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's > Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TdywocTe4MSkN-NRqk2OyGtyDrQIWQoS3DPbLBdb4XFmAZMm8cQ8tyJwLNyOKH9_lFGZCg$ > > > > On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 3:43 AM HENRY SHONERD > > wrote: > > Martin, John and Andy > Thanks to Martin for kicking off this topic and John > and Andy for following up. I has amazed me to find, > for me, how the RTZ narrative resonates with both > Navajo and Pueblo narratives here in New Mexico. How > evil RTZ ?is, but how wonderful the courage of our > native peoples! > > Chaco Canyon IS a tourist destination here in New > Mexico. Though there has been no destruction of the > site that, based on Native American narratives and the > efforts of archeologists, is architecturally > spectacular evidence of the pre-Colombian culture from > which the present-day Pueblos come. What parallels RTZ > activities on aboriginal lands in Australia is the > drilling for gas and oil on Navajo lands surrounding > Chaco and a rush to buy more rights while Trump is in > power. There have been protests, though nothing as > intense and effective as the Standing Rock protests to > protect water on native lands to our north and east > from gas and oil predation (the pipeline). Standing > Rock was LED by Native Americans, many from the > Navajo, Apache and Pueblo near me. > > I just saw yesterday a 30-year-old film that is one of > the offerings of the Vision Maker Film Festival: Clear > Cut. I recommend it, or at least a look at the wiki > article about it. It couldn?t be more timely. It?s > messy, where contention between environmental and > logging interests and division WITHIN the native > community (traditon vs. jobs) leave one stunned. What > redeems a messy struggle is exactly what Andy says: > The aboriginal people of the world do it for us! In > the same way, when ?our? Pueblos put on feasts and > invite us in to witness their dances, they do it for > us. Perhaps you recall the movie ?Koyaniskaatsi?, la > Hopi word that has been translated as "life out of > balance". (The Hopis are a Puebloan people, > descendants of the Chacoan culture. The Navajos and > Apaches arrived here about the same time as the > European colonizers, based on linguistic and genetic > evidence.) If you live in New Mexico, you are around > Pueblo people. If you are really lucky, and many of us > are, you become friends with them and they invite you > to share their food at the feasts! How generous is > this? They do it for us. > > The RTZ narrative is not only destructive to cultural > capital, it is implicated in natural capital > (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/nov/23/monbiot-natural-capital-wrong-conservation__;!!Mih3wA!TdywocTe4MSkN-NRqk2OyGtyDrQIWQoS3DPbLBdb4XFmAZMm8cQ8tyJwLNyOKH_yziDUOg$ > ) > via climate change. (The link here, to a Guardian > article is available through the first link in John?s > post). Here again we should look to our native > peoples. There is credible research that concludes the > climate change lengthens fire seasons but wrong-headed > environmental policies make the fires more intense, > hence less controllable. Add to this the incursion of > housing into forested areas and the destruction is a > doubly self-inflicted wound. And hold on for this one > for the best CHAT connection: Native peoples of this > continent used to set controlled burns to remove the > kind of unburnt fuel to avoid such conflagrations. > Today some of ?the best-trained and most effective > firefighters in this country are Native Americans. > Cultural capital. They do it for us, and their example > from the past can serve us now. Cultural capital. > > I believe I have crowed before about New Mexico and > our Native Americans. Australia has crowing rights as > well. And, for standing proud, there?s nothing like an > anthem. The best anthem music I have EVER heard comes > from Australia: Yothu Yindi What a great project that > brings together white people and people of color. What > great creative collaboration. Andy, I am telling you > again, project is a great unit of analysis, precisely > because it brings together cognition and affect, > because it embodies active orientation. In my country, > it is pretty well agreed that the natives got screwed, > across the political divide. Black Lives Matter is > more complex, but there is hope that the question of > race is now where LGBTQ issues were at the time of the > AIDS crisis, in the last century. Back then we could > never have guessed we would be where we are with > non-gender-conforming acceptance now. Just saying, as > much for myself as for anybody else listening. > > La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n > Henry > > > > > >> On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >> >> Er. " *NO *physical markers" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 14/09/2020 11:43 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list before >>> noticing that John had already responded, and John >>> is much better informed than me about these matters, >>> and yet I spoke as if he didn't exist. My apologies. >>> >>> These caves are nothing for tourism. They are too >>> remote and there are others more accessible. I >>> believe the caves have been under Native Title as a >>> result of a bitter struggle to protect them by the >>> local people in the 1990s. This means that RTZ had >>> to get permission from the PKK people. The lawyers >>> swindled them. >>> >>> In my view, all these sites which are not only part >>> of Aboriginal heritage (there are places which have >>> *NO *physical markers of their status but are sacred >>> to the local people) but self-evidently of *world* >>> heritage. But I don't think these caves were >>> registered as World Heritage. I have not heard the >>> discussion about this (John?). No-one wants to say >>> this, I think, because it implies that Indigenous >>> values are somehow less important than human values. >>> For example, under the law as it stands the PKK Land >>> Council would have a right to let RTZ destroy the >>> caves and maybe a million dollars or two in the bank >>> or a new school, would be enough. This is not a >>> hypothetical. One of the reasons that the Indigenous >>> people remain impoverished even where they have >>> Native Title over large areas of land, is that they >>> live, after all, in a capitalist country and Native >>> title cannot be sold. It is not a commodity. >>> Therefore it is not a form of wealth. You can't get >>> a mortgage to build a house on land you own by >>> Native title.? You can't sell a block to a farmer so >>> you can buy agricultural equipment to farm another >>> block. In short, by blocking the Indigenous people >>> from monetising their land rights we trap them in >>> poverty. In general, the indigenous people are happy >>> to forgo tourist income to protect their sacred >>> sites (e.g. Uluru) and I don't doubt for an instant, >>> that if they'd been properly consulted they never >>> would have agreed to the destruction of the caves. >>> Obviously. But they do have to have rights to trade >>> with their land. But also the world needs to keep >>> absolutely unique archaeological sites pristine and >>> the local people should be supported by governments >>> to do the work of protecting them on *our* behalf. >>> Recognising the great cost entailed. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>>> Thanks, John and Andy, >>>> >>>> I suppose that I am naive, for this event >>>> astonishes me in so many different ways. I would >>>> have assumed that the land title or native title >>>> granted to indigenous peoples over some territory >>>> in Australia would have included the?Juuken Gorge >>>> caves. I would have assumed that these caves were a >>>> national cultural heritage site, or even a world >>>> cultural heritage site. I would have assumed that >>>> indigenous rights would have more importance to the >>>> Australian government, and indeed to the Australian >>>> people. I would have assumed that, while mining is >>>> apparently of great economic importance to the >>>> country, the government would have considered the >>>> economic value of this site for tourism, or simply >>>> the impact that destroying the caves would have on >>>> Australia?s reputation. And while I suppose that >>>> unbridled rapaciousness on the part of an >>>> international mining company is hardly a surprise, >>>> I would have thought that Rio Tinto would also have >>>> considered the negative publicity that their >>>> actions would create. >>>> >>>> How can we express our displeasure to the various >>>> parties involved? Are there petitions that one can >>>> sign? Or Twitter accounts to which one can tweet? >>>> >>>> I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO >>>> Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if his bonus this year >>>> would have been A$4.9 million. Perhaps he could >>>> donate a few years of his salary to establish a >>>> foundation that could work for indigenous peoples? >>>> rights. >>>> >>>> sadly >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps Clark >>>>> >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves (which >>>>> I assume you are referring to) is a much more >>>>> villainous act than was originally portrayed and >>>>> reflects the venal racism not only of the company >>>>> but also of the State Government. For those not >>>>> familiar with this shocking crime, the $80b Anglo >>>>> Australian mining company which on Sunday 24th of >>>>> May blew up a site sacred to the Puutu Kunti >>>>> Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) traditional owners and >>>>> occupied for 46,000 years at least, to extend iron >>>>> ore mining. "?It?s one of the most sacred sites in >>>>> the Pilbara region ? we wanted to have that area >>>>> protected,? PKKP director Burchell Hayes. The >>>>> traditional owners tried desperately to stop the >>>>> blast once they became aware it was impending. >>>>> >>>>> At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there was a >>>>> misunderstanding" but and, after much outrage, the >>>>> three members of the executive had their multi >>>>> million dollar bonuses reduced. It has >>>>> subsequently emerged that Rio Tinto had contracted >>>>> lawyers to oppose any injunctions before the crime >>>>> was committed. The chief executive and two of his >>>>> underlings have resigned. >>>>> >>>>> The crime was legal and was made possible by State >>>>> Government laws which are stacked in favour of >>>>> miners. Assessments of the cultural and >>>>> environmental significance are made with little >>>>> investigation and remain in place for decades and >>>>> have rarely been successfully be challenged. No >>>>> permission to destroy heritage sites in WA has >>>>> been refused (and there have been 463 >>>>> applications). >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It is not as if we didn?t know that this would >>>>> happen. Norway's pension fund divested their >>>>> holdings in Rio Tinto in 2008: "Exclusion of a >>>>> company from the Fund reflects our unwillingness >>>>> to run an unacceptable risk of contributing to >>>>> grossly unethical conduct. The Council on Ethics >>>>> has concluded that Rio Tinto is directly involved, >>>>> through its participation in the Grasberg mine in >>>>> Indonesia, in the severe environmental damage >>>>> caused by that mining operation." >>>>> ?????Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of Finance >>>>> >>>>> A useful background briefing of indigenous rights >>>>> in Australia: >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ?On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, >>>>> "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> on behalf >>>>> of Martin Packer" >>>> on behalf >>>>> of mpacker@cantab.net > >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ???Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to?? >>>>> >>>>> ???Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Important Notice: The contents of this email are >>>>> intended solely for the named addressee and are >>>>> confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction >>>>> or storage of the contents is expressly >>>>> prohibited. If you have received this email in >>>>> error, please delete it and any attachments >>>>> immediately and advise the sender by return email >>>>> or telephone. >>>>> >>>>> Deakin University does not warrant that this email >>>>> and any attachments are error or virus free. >>>>> >>>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200915/2dd5301a/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Tue Sep 15 08:58:27 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 10:58:27 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> Message-ID: <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> > capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). This happens to be something I?ve been thinking about recently ? the ?evitability? (avoidability, as opposed to inevitability) of capitalism. I?ve been reading some of the work of Douglass North, who won a Nobel prize in economics in 1993 for his analysis of the role that institutions have played in economic ?development,? He thought he was describing how the West achieved ?progress? and has been able to ?evolve? further than other regions, but one can read his work as describing alternative pathways in the formation of economic systems, which in the West has led to an imbalance in which profit and growth have become the only measures of societal and individual achievement. A neat illustration: the NY Times has been publishing reflections upon an article written 50 years ago by Milton Friedman titled "The Social Responsibility Of Business Is to Increase Its Profits." Friedman wrote: WHEN I hear businessmen speak eloquently about the ?social responsibilities of business in a free?enterprise system,? I am reminded of the wonderful line about the Frenchman who discovered at, the age of 70 that he had been speaking prose all his life. The businessmen believe that they are defending free enterprise when they declaim that business is not concerned ?merely? with profit but also with promoting desirable ?social? ends; that business has a ?social conscience? and takes seriously its responsibilities for providing employment, eliminating discrimination, avoiding pollution and whatever else may be the catchwords of the contemporary crop of reformers. In fact they are?or would be if they or any one else took them seriously? preaching pure and unadulterated socialism. Businessmen who talk this way are unwitting puppets of the intellectual forces that have been undermining the basis of a free society these past decades. It will be hard to find a better statement of the ideology that has got us all into the current mess. On the left, was it with Lenin that capitalism became viewed as a necessary prerequisite to socialism? For example, as I understand it after the revolution in Mexico, 1910-1920, the PRI (Partido Revolucionario Institucional) worked hard to turn the indigenous peoples into a proletariat. This was the only way they could imagine societal progress: quickly moving the country into capitalism so as to achieve socialism. I conclude that it was not only Stalin who taught this. Martin > On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:57 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > If you click on the link that Henry, and before him John, offered, you get the pro-natural-capital side of a debate in the pages of the Guardian on whether or not "nature" can be valued as capital and whether it is good or bad for nature for humans to do this. I think that in CHAT, we are indebted to Marx for many things, but surely one debt we would do well not to disavow is Marx's insistence (in Critique of the Gotha programme and elsewhere) that nature is NOT capital: on the contrary, humans and all of their various property forms from communism to capitalism must be considered peculiar forms of nature. This is a discussion that CHAT needs to have if we are going to retain the AT in CHAT. I disagree with Peter Jones on many many things, but one thing I heartily agree with him on is the idea that Leontiev brings an intensely anti-naturalistic view of activity into activity theory--humans acting as subjects on passive environments to produce beneficial outcomes. > > Marx had a better idea: in the Ethnological Notebooks, he shows us that capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). Western capitalism, with its idea of nature as capital, is really just one extreme variant. In Marx's columns on the Sepoy rebellion and the Taiping rebellion, he even posits an "Asiantic mode of production" that had virtually nothing to do with feudalism. So to say that South Korea and Japan are equally capitalist societies is really a little like saying that China and the USSR were equally non-capitalist. Deus Sive Natura: and neither one is capital. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: > Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky > > Some free e-prints today available at: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!XcuQOyOqMxTd153TtrwylO5Y4zRrspjvlGqhS0EmHS-bM1cU84MXl31zfD7qRun3CF4-Mg$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XcuQOyOqMxTd153TtrwylO5Y4zRrspjvlGqhS0EmHS-bM1cU84MXl31zfD7qRukwoAsVGg$ > > > On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 3:43 AM HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > Martin, John and Andy > Thanks to Martin for kicking off this topic and John and Andy for following up. I has amazed me to find, for me, how the RTZ narrative resonates with both Navajo and Pueblo narratives here in New Mexico. How evil RTZ is, but how wonderful the courage of our native peoples! > > Chaco Canyon IS a tourist destination here in New Mexico. Though there has been no destruction of the site that, based on Native American narratives and the efforts of archeologists, is architecturally spectacular evidence of the pre-Colombian culture from which the present-day Pueblos come. What parallels RTZ activities on aboriginal lands in Australia is the drilling for gas and oil on Navajo lands surrounding Chaco and a rush to buy more rights while Trump is in power. There have been protests, though nothing as intense and effective as the Standing Rock protests to protect water on native lands to our north and east from gas and oil predation (the pipeline). Standing Rock was LED by Native Americans, many from the Navajo, Apache and Pueblo near me. > > I just saw yesterday a 30-year-old film that is one of the offerings of the Vision Maker Film Festival: Clear Cut. I recommend it, or at least a look at the wiki article about it. It couldn?t be more timely. It?s messy, where contention between environmental and logging interests and division WITHIN the native community (traditon vs. jobs) leave one stunned. What redeems a messy struggle is exactly what Andy says: The aboriginal people of the world do it for us! In the same way, when ?our? Pueblos put on feasts and invite us in to witness their dances, they do it for us. Perhaps you recall the movie ?Koyaniskaatsi?, la Hopi word that has been translated as "life out of balance". (The Hopis are a Puebloan people, descendants of the Chacoan culture. The Navajos and Apaches arrived here about the same time as the European colonizers, based on linguistic and genetic evidence.) If you live in New Mexico, you are around Pueblo people. If you are really lucky, and many of us are, you become friends with them and they invite you to share their food at the feasts! How generous is this? They do it for us. > > The RTZ narrative is not only destructive to cultural capital, it is implicated in natural capital (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/nov/23/monbiot-natural-capital-wrong-conservation__;!!Mih3wA!XcuQOyOqMxTd153TtrwylO5Y4zRrspjvlGqhS0EmHS-bM1cU84MXl31zfD7qRunxNKomhQ$ ) via climate change. (The link here, to a Guardian article is available through the first link in John?s post). Here again we should look to our native peoples. There is credible research that concludes the climate change lengthens fire seasons but wrong-headed environmental policies make the fires more intense, hence less controllable. Add to this the incursion of housing into forested areas and the destruction is a doubly self-inflicted wound. And hold on for this one for the best CHAT connection: Native peoples of this continent used to set controlled burns to remove the kind of unburnt fuel to avoid such conflagrations. Today some of the best-trained and most effective firefighters in this country are Native Americans. Cultural capital. They do it for us, and their example from the past can serve us now. Cultural capital. > > I believe I have crowed before about New Mexico and our Native Americans. Australia has crowing rights as well. And, for standing proud, there?s nothing like an anthem. The best anthem music I have EVER heard comes from Australia: Yothu Yindi What a great project that brings together white people and people of color. What great creative collaboration. Andy, I am telling you again, project is a great unit of analysis, precisely because it brings together cognition and affect, because it embodies active orientation. In my country, it is pretty well agreed that the natives got screwed, across the political divide. Black Lives Matter is more complex, but there is hope that the question of race is now where LGBTQ issues were at the time of the AIDS crisis, in the last century. Back then we could never have guessed we would be where we are with non-gender-conforming acceptance now. Just saying, as much for myself as for anybody else listening. > > La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n > Henry > > > > > > >> On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >> >> Er. " NO physical markers" >> >> Andy Blunden >> Hegel for Social Movements >> Home Page >> On 14/09/2020 11:43 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list before noticing that John had already responded, and John is much better informed than me about these matters, and yet I spoke as if he didn't exist. My apologies. >>> >>> These caves are nothing for tourism. They are too remote and there are others more accessible. I believe the caves have been under Native Title as a result of a bitter struggle to protect them by the local people in the 1990s. This means that RTZ had to get permission from the PKK people. The lawyers swindled them. >>> >>> In my view, all these sites which are not only part of Aboriginal heritage (there are places which have NO physical markers of their status but are sacred to the local people) but self-evidently of world heritage. But I don't think these caves were registered as World Heritage. I have not heard the discussion about this (John?). No-one wants to say this, I think, because it implies that Indigenous values are somehow less important than human values. For example, under the law as it stands the PKK Land Council would have a right to let RTZ destroy the caves and maybe a million dollars or two in the bank or a new school, would be enough. This is not a hypothetical. One of the reasons that the Indigenous people remain impoverished even where they have Native Title over large areas of land, is that they live, after all, in a capitalist country and Native title cannot be sold. It is not a commodity. Therefore it is not a form of wealth. You can't get a mortgage to build a house on land you own by Native title. You can't sell a block to a farmer so you can buy agricultural equipment to farm another block. In short, by blocking the Indigenous people from monetising their land rights we trap them in poverty. In general, the indigenous people are happy to forgo tourist income to protect their sacred sites (e.g. Uluru) and I don't doubt for an instant, that if they'd been properly consulted they never would have agreed to the destruction of the caves. Obviously. But they do have to have rights to trade with their land. But also the world needs to keep absolutely unique archaeological sites pristine and the local people should be supported by governments to do the work of protecting them on our behalf. Recognising the great cost entailed. >>> >>> Andy >>> Andy Blunden >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> Home Page >>> On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>>> Thanks, John and Andy, >>>> >>>> I suppose that I am naive, for this event astonishes me in so many different ways. I would have assumed that the land title or native title granted to indigenous peoples over some territory in Australia would have included the Juuken Gorge caves. I would have assumed that these caves were a national cultural heritage site, or even a world cultural heritage site. I would have assumed that indigenous rights would have more importance to the Australian government, and indeed to the Australian people. I would have assumed that, while mining is apparently of great economic importance to the country, the government would have considered the economic value of this site for tourism, or simply the impact that destroying the caves would have on Australia?s reputation. And while I suppose that unbridled rapaciousness on the part of an international mining company is hardly a surprise, I would have thought that Rio Tinto would also have considered the negative publicity that their actions would create. >>>> >>>> How can we express our displeasure to the various parties involved? Are there petitions that one can sign? Or Twitter accounts to which one can tweet? >>>> >>>> I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if his bonus this year would have been A$4.9 million. Perhaps he could donate a few years of his salary to establish a foundation that could work for indigenous peoples? rights. >>>> >>>> sadly >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps Clark > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves (which I assume you are referring to) is a much more villainous act than was originally portrayed and reflects the venal racism not only of the company but also of the State Government. For those not familiar with this shocking crime, the $80b Anglo Australian mining company which on Sunday 24th of May blew up a site sacred to the Puutu Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) traditional owners and occupied for 46,000 years at least, to extend iron ore mining. "?It?s one of the most sacred sites in the Pilbara region ? we wanted to have that area protected,? PKKP director Burchell Hayes. The traditional owners tried desperately to stop the blast once they became aware it was impending. >>>>> >>>>> At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there was a misunderstanding" but and, after much outrage, the three members of the executive had their multi million dollar bonuses reduced. It has subsequently emerged that Rio Tinto had contracted lawyers to oppose any injunctions before the crime was committed. The chief executive and two of his underlings have resigned. >>>>> >>>>> The crime was legal and was made possible by State Government laws which are stacked in favour of miners. Assessments of the cultural and environmental significance are made with little investigation and remain in place for decades and have rarely been successfully be challenged. No permission to destroy heritage sites in WA has been refused (and there have been 463 applications). https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ >>>>> >>>>> It is not as if we didn?t know that this would happen. Norway's pension fund divested their holdings in Rio Tinto in 2008: "Exclusion of a company from the Fund reflects our unwillingness to run an unacceptable risk of contributing to grossly unethical conduct. The Council on Ethics has concluded that Rio Tinto is directly involved, through its participation in the Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the severe environmental damage caused by that mining operation." >>>>> ??Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of Finance >>>>> >>>>> A useful background briefing of indigenous rights in Australia: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ >>>>> >>>>> ?On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin Packer" on behalf of mpacker@cantab.net > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to?? >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for the named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise the sender by return email or telephone. >>>>> >>>>> Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments are error or virus free. >>>>> >>>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200915/6ad0c673/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Tue Sep 15 09:12:05 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 11:12:05 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> Message-ID: This seems no longer available online? Perhaps of interest. Rosemont, F. (1989). Karl Marx and the Iroquois. Arsenal: Surrealist Subversion, 4, 201-213. Retrieved from: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.geocities.com/cordobakaf/marx_iroquois.html__;!!Mih3wA!Xnu9pEZUrlzjRGu9MPGmay_7TTz6CjoD873fVzkwhty3wyffJY8AaHa_4bsWDZV20lBa6g$ Martin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200915/29de1c16/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Rosemont 2005 Karl Marx and the Iroquois.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 360200 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200915/29de1c16/attachment.pdf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200915/29de1c16/attachment-0001.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Sep 15 14:10:01 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 06:10:01 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> Message-ID: Anthony often wonders whether there is any necessary connection between Marxism and what he calls "leftism". Andy even has a video where he suggests that making that connection is not a "helpful" way of thinking about Marxist philosophy. I get it. When we read "The HIstorical Sense of the Crisis in Psychology" we hear Vygotsky asking his closest friends and collaborators NOT to use the term Marxism when referring to their work, not only because he doesn't want it associated with political pietism but also because he doesn't think that the current method of "copy and paste" quotes from Marx and Engels is yielding anything like a real Marxist psychology. (Interestingly, the late Lucien Seve believed that this criticism was directed at Deborin, but Andy thinks it is directed against mechanists like Bukharin). But to me Anthony's question answers itself. What he calls "leftism" is really just what Andy calls "world perezhivanie", it is sociogenesis made into conscious awareness. That is, it is human societies confronted by other societies and trying to change themselves rather than be changed. When they do this, even if they do not recognize any "final, complete, ideal form" (and Vygotsky says no such recognition is possible in Chapter Four of Foundations of Pedology) they become aware that the principles of blind adaptation themselves can be changed (as animals do) into those of design. Contrary to individuals adapting to the environment, societies that look after the old, the young, and the sick are made stronger and better, because the whole course of development is deliberate and indirect adaptation rather than blind and direct. . I think, Martin, that both Lenin and Trotsky believed strongly in the evitability of capitalism, and both considered it to be the key question of their time, both in the Russian and in the incipient Chinese revolution. They did come up with different solutions, and you are right to say that Lenin's solution lent itself much more easily to Stalin's believe in the five universal stages of human society (primitive communism, slavery, feudalism, capitalism and socialism). Lenin believed that the capitalist development of the Russian empire (which of course included many non-capitalist societies) can and should be stopped by a "democratic dictatorship of the proletariat and the peasantry", which would bring in capitalism but exercise dictatorship over the capitalists themselves, ensuring that the democratic tasks of the revolution (ensuring franchise to the disenfranchised, including land to the tillers) were carried out in a way that would enable a transition to socialism (withering away the state, common ownership of land). Trotsky believed that no capitalist stage would be necessary, because there would be revolutions in Germany, England, France, and above all the USA, and the world organization of production would allow non-capitalist societies to develop from primitive communism to true communism. When Joseph Glick wrote his "Prologue" to Volume Four of the (English) Vygotsky Collected Works, he argued that one reason why Vygotsky was so important to educators in the post-Piaget era was that he offered a way of doing without universal Piagetian stages. We now know, from the pedological work, that Vygotsky had his own stages in mind. But we still don't know if he saw the stages as evitable the way that Lenin did or whether he believed, as did Trotsky, in permanent revolution. (By the way, Renee Van der Veer has now published a translation of "Pedology of School Age"--in English!) https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D6WDK3H/ref=pe_385040_118058080_TE_M1DP__;!!Mih3wA!SrpIrAAR8TbxIJDvFPI-ToFM1WKVl9U0uJJT8Q-kFMIF0SS9DZiNZNL9-jnI1h3vDY-n9g$ David Kellogg Sangmyung University New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky Some free e-prints today available at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!SrpIrAAR8TbxIJDvFPI-ToFM1WKVl9U0uJJT8Q-kFMIF0SS9DZiNZNL9-jnI1h2f7BKdEA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SrpIrAAR8TbxIJDvFPI-ToFM1WKVl9U0uJJT8Q-kFMIF0SS9DZiNZNL9-jnI1h0O4IyFmQ$ On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 1:00 AM Martin Packer wrote: > capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no universal stage > (contrary to what Stalin taught). > > > This happens to be something I?ve been thinking about recently ? the > ?evitability? (avoidability, as opposed to inevitability) of capitalism. > I?ve been reading some of the work of Douglass North, who won a Nobel prize > in economics in 1993 for his analysis of the role that institutions have > played in economic ?development,? He thought he was describing how the > West achieved ?progress? and has been able to ?evolve? further than other > regions, but one can read his work as describing alternative pathways in > the formation of economic systems, which in the West has led to an > imbalance in which profit and growth have become the only measures of > societal and individual achievement. > > A neat illustration: the NY Times has been publishing reflections upon an > article written 50 years ago by Milton Friedman titled "The Social > Responsibility Of Business Is to Increase Its Profits." Friedman wrote: > > WHEN I hear businessmen speak eloquently about the > ?social responsibilities of business in a free?enterprise system,? I am > reminded of the wonderful line about the Frenchman who discovered at, the > age of 70 that he had been speaking prose all his life. The > businessmen believe that they are defending free enterprise when they > declaim that business is not concerned ?merely? with profit but also with > promoting desirable ?social? ends; that business has a ?social conscience? > and takes seriously its responsibilities for providing > employment, eliminating discrimination, avoiding pollution and whatever > else may be the catchwords of the contemporary crop of reformers. In fact > they are?or would be if they or any one else took them seriously? > preaching pure and unadulterated socialism. Businessmen who talk this way > are unwitting puppets of the intellectual forces that have been > undermining the basis of a free society these past decades. > > > It will be hard to find a better statement of the ideology that has got us > all into the current mess. > > On the left, was it with Lenin that capitalism became viewed as a > necessary prerequisite to socialism? For example, as I understand it after > the revolution in Mexico, 1910-1920, the PRI (Partido Revolucionario > Institucional) worked hard to turn the indigenous peoples into a > proletariat. This was the only way they could imagine societal progress: > quickly moving the country into capitalism so as to achieve socialism. I > conclude that it was not only Stalin who taught this. > > Martin > > > On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:57 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > If you click on the link that Henry, and before him John, offered, you get > the pro-natural-capital side of a debate in the pages of the Guardian on > whether or not "nature" can be valued as capital and whether it is good or > bad for nature for humans to do this. I think that in CHAT, we are indebted > to Marx for many things, but surely one debt we would do well not to > disavow is Marx's insistence (in Critique of the Gotha programme and > elsewhere) that nature is NOT capital: on the contrary, humans and all of > their various property forms from communism to capitalism must be > considered peculiar forms of nature. This is a discussion that CHAT needs > to have if we are going to retain the AT in CHAT. I disagree with Peter > Jones on many many things, but one thing I heartily agree with him on is > the idea that Leontiev brings an intensely anti-naturalistic view of > activity into activity theory--humans acting as subjects on passive > environments to produce beneficial outcomes. > > Marx had a better idea: in the Ethnological Notebooks, he shows us that > capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no universal stage > (contrary to what Stalin taught). Western capitalism, with its idea of > nature as capital, is really just one extreme variant. In Marx's columns > on the Sepoy rebellion and the Taiping rebellion, he even posits an > "Asiantic mode of production" that had virtually nothing to do with > feudalism. So to say that South Korea and Japan are equally capitalist > societies is really a little like saying that China and the USSR were > equally non-capitalist. Deus Sive Natura: and neither one is capital. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: > Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, > Hasan, and Vygotsky > > Some free e-prints today available at: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!SrpIrAAR8TbxIJDvFPI-ToFM1WKVl9U0uJJT8Q-kFMIF0SS9DZiNZNL9-jnI1h2f7BKdEA$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SrpIrAAR8TbxIJDvFPI-ToFM1WKVl9U0uJJT8Q-kFMIF0SS9DZiNZNL9-jnI1h0O4IyFmQ$ > > > > On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 3:43 AM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Martin, John and Andy >> Thanks to Martin for kicking off this topic and John and Andy for >> following up. I has amazed me to find, for me, how the RTZ narrative >> resonates with both Navajo and Pueblo narratives here in New Mexico. How >> evil RTZ is, but how wonderful the courage of our native peoples! >> >> Chaco Canyon IS a tourist destination here in New Mexico. Though there >> has been no destruction of the site that, based on Native American >> narratives and the efforts of archeologists, is architecturally spectacular >> evidence of the pre-Colombian culture from which the present-day Pueblos >> come. What parallels RTZ activities on aboriginal lands in Australia is the >> drilling for gas and oil on Navajo lands surrounding Chaco and a rush to >> buy more rights while Trump is in power. There have been protests, though >> nothing as intense and effective as the Standing Rock protests to protect >> water on native lands to our north and east from gas and oil predation (the >> pipeline). Standing Rock was LED by Native Americans, many from the Navajo, >> Apache and Pueblo near me. >> >> I just saw yesterday a 30-year-old film that is one of the offerings of >> the Vision Maker Film Festival: Clear Cut. I recommend it, or at least a >> look at the wiki article about it. It couldn?t be more timely. It?s messy, >> where contention between environmental and logging interests and division >> WITHIN the native community (traditon vs. jobs) leave one stunned. What >> redeems a messy struggle is exactly what Andy says: The aboriginal people >> of the world do it for us! In the same way, when ?our? Pueblos put on >> feasts and invite us in to witness their dances, they do it for us. Perhaps >> you recall the movie ?Koyaniskaatsi?, la Hopi word that has been translated >> as "life out of balance". (The Hopis are a Puebloan people, descendants of >> the Chacoan culture. The Navajos and Apaches arrived here about the same >> time as the European colonizers, based on linguistic and genetic evidence.) >> If you live in New Mexico, you are around Pueblo people. If you are really >> lucky, and many of us are, you become friends with them and they invite you >> to share their food at the feasts! How generous is this? They do it for us. >> >> The RTZ narrative is not only destructive to cultural capital, it is >> implicated in natural capital ( >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/nov/23/monbiot-natural-capital-wrong-conservation__;!!Mih3wA!SrpIrAAR8TbxIJDvFPI-ToFM1WKVl9U0uJJT8Q-kFMIF0SS9DZiNZNL9-jnI1h13gI_sQA$ >> ) >> via climate change. (The link here, to a Guardian article is available >> through the first link in John?s post). Here again we should look to our >> native peoples. There is credible research that concludes the climate >> change lengthens fire seasons but wrong-headed environmental policies make >> the fires more intense, hence less controllable. Add to this the incursion >> of housing into forested areas and the destruction is a doubly >> self-inflicted wound. And hold on for this one for the best CHAT >> connection: Native peoples of this continent used to set controlled burns >> to remove the kind of unburnt fuel to avoid such conflagrations. Today some >> of the best-trained and most effective firefighters in this country are >> Native Americans. Cultural capital. They do it for us, and their example >> from the past can serve us now. Cultural capital. >> >> I believe I have crowed before about New Mexico and our Native Americans. >> Australia has crowing rights as well. And, for standing proud, there?s >> nothing like an anthem. The best anthem music I have EVER heard comes from >> Australia: Yothu Yindi What a great project that brings together white >> people and people of color. What great creative collaboration. Andy, I am >> telling you again, project is a great unit of analysis, precisely because >> it brings together cognition and affect, because it embodies active >> orientation. In my country, it is pretty well agreed that the natives got >> screwed, across the political divide. Black Lives Matter is more complex, >> but there is hope that the question of race is now where LGBTQ issues were >> at the time of the AIDS crisis, in the last century. Back then we could >> never have guessed we would be where we are with non-gender-conforming >> acceptance now. Just saying, as much for myself as for anybody else >> listening. >> >> La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n >> Henry >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Er. " *NO *physical markers" >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 14/09/2020 11:43 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list before noticing that John had >> already responded, and John is much better informed than me about these >> matters, and yet I spoke as if he didn't exist. My apologies. >> >> These caves are nothing for tourism. They are too remote and there are >> others more accessible. I believe the caves have been under Native Title as >> a result of a bitter struggle to protect them by the local people in the >> 1990s. This means that RTZ had to get permission from the PKK people. The >> lawyers swindled them. >> >> In my view, all these sites which are not only part of Aboriginal >> heritage (there are places which have *NO *physical markers of their >> status but are sacred to the local people) but self-evidently of *world* >> heritage. But I don't think these caves were registered as World Heritage. >> I have not heard the discussion about this (John?). No-one wants to say >> this, I think, because it implies that Indigenous values are somehow less >> important than human values. For example, under the law as it stands the >> PKK Land Council would have a right to let RTZ destroy the caves and maybe >> a million dollars or two in the bank or a new school, would be enough. This >> is not a hypothetical. One of the reasons that the Indigenous people remain >> impoverished even where they have Native Title over large areas of land, is >> that they live, after all, in a capitalist country and Native title cannot >> be sold. It is not a commodity. Therefore it is not a form of wealth. You >> can't get a mortgage to build a house on land you own by Native title. You >> can't sell a block to a farmer so you can buy agricultural equipment to >> farm another block. In short, by blocking the Indigenous people from >> monetising their land rights we trap them in poverty. In general, the >> indigenous people are happy to forgo tourist income to protect their sacred >> sites (e.g. Uluru) and I don't doubt for an instant, that if they'd been >> properly consulted they never would have agreed to the destruction of the >> caves. Obviously. But they do have to have rights to trade with their land. >> But also the world needs to keep absolutely unique archaeological sites >> pristine and the local people should be supported by governments to do the >> work of protecting them on *our* behalf. Recognising the great cost >> entailed. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote: >> >> Thanks, John and Andy, >> >> I suppose that I am naive, for this event astonishes me in so many >> different ways. I would have assumed that the land title or native title >> granted to indigenous peoples over some territory in Australia would have >> included the Juuken Gorge caves. I would have assumed that these caves were >> a national cultural heritage site, or even a world cultural heritage site. >> I would have assumed that indigenous rights would have more importance to >> the Australian government, and indeed to the Australian people. I would >> have assumed that, while mining is apparently of great economic importance >> to the country, the government would have considered the economic value of >> this site for tourism, or simply the impact that destroying the caves would >> have on Australia?s reputation. And while I suppose that unbridled >> rapaciousness on the part of an international mining company is hardly a >> surprise, I would have thought that Rio Tinto would also have considered >> the negative publicity that their actions would create. >> >> How can we express our displeasure to the various parties involved? Are >> there petitions that one can sign? Or Twitter accounts to which one can >> tweet? >> >> I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if >> his bonus this year would have been A$4.9 million. Perhaps he could donate >> a few years of his salary to establish a foundation that could work for >> indigenous peoples? rights. >> >> sadly >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps Clark < >> john.crippsclark@deakin.edu.au> wrote: >> >> The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves (which I assume you are >> referring to) is a much more villainous act than was originally portrayed >> and reflects the venal racism not only of the company but also of the State >> Government. For those not familiar with this shocking crime, the $80b Anglo >> Australian mining company which on Sunday 24th of May blew up a site sacred >> to the Puutu Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) traditional owners and >> occupied for 46,000 years at least, to extend iron ore mining. "?It?s one >> of the most sacred sites in the Pilbara region ? we wanted to have that >> area protected,? PKKP director Burchell Hayes. The traditional owners tried >> desperately to stop the blast once they became aware it was impending. >> >> At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there was a misunderstanding" but >> and, after much outrage, the three members of the executive had their multi >> million dollar bonuses reduced. It has subsequently emerged that Rio Tinto >> had contracted lawyers to oppose any injunctions before the crime was >> committed. The chief executive and two of his underlings have resigned. >> >> The crime was legal and was made possible by State Government laws which >> are stacked in favour of miners. Assessments of the cultural and >> environmental significance are made with little investigation and remain in >> place for decades and have rarely been successfully be challenged. No >> permission to destroy heritage sites in WA has been refused (and there have >> been 463 applications). >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ >> >> It is not as if we didn?t know that this would happen. Norway's pension >> fund divested their holdings in Rio Tinto in 2008: "Exclusion of a company >> from the Fund reflects our unwillingness to run an unacceptable risk of >> contributing to grossly unethical conduct. The Council on Ethics has >> concluded that Rio Tinto is directly involved, through its participation in >> the Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the severe environmental damage caused >> by that mining operation." >> ? Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of Finance >> >> A useful background briefing of indigenous rights in Australia: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ >> >> ?On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of >> Martin Packer" > mpacker@cantab.net> wrote: >> >> Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to?? >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for the >> named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or >> storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this >> email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise >> the sender by return email or telephone. >> >> Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments >> are error or virus free. >> >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200916/889d4c14/attachment-0001.html From andyb@marxists.org Tue Sep 15 17:33:02 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 10:33:02 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> Message-ID: This letter: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1881/letters/81_03_08.htm__;!!Mih3wA!Wc7U2Qr5zMgrKKeh_jEXkdulE0GgE_Mf1JJ9xPU3T2lU6DpYFZfSmiQ9Rs0MpFuzxe_8fw$ is one occasion when Marx makes it clear that he makes no claim for the inevitability of a capitalist stage of social development, only that this was what was actually the case in Europe in his time. Note that Marx's correspondence with Vera Zasulich was published in Russia in 1924, so Vygotsky would have been aware of this. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/09/2020 1:58 am, Martin Packer wrote: >> capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is >> no universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). > > This happens to be something I?ve been thinking about > recently ? the ?evitability? (avoidability, as opposed to > inevitability) of capitalism. I?ve been reading some of > the work of Douglass North, who won a Nobel prize in > economics in 1993 for his analysis of the role that > institutions have played in economic ?development,? He > thought ?he was describing how the West achieved > ?progress? and has been able to ?evolve? further than > other regions, but one can read his work as describing > alternative pathways in the formation of economic systems, > which in the West has led to an imbalance in which profit > and growth have become the only measures of societal and > individual achievement. > > A neat illustration: the NY Times has been publishing > reflections upon an article written 50 years ago by Milton > Friedman titled "The Social Responsibility Of Business Is > to?Increase Its Profits." Friedman wrote: > > WHEN I hear businessmen speak eloquently about the > ?social?responsibilities of business in > a?free?enterprise system,? I am reminded?of the > wonderful line about the Frenchman who discovered?at, > the age of?70 that he had been speaking prose all his > life. The businessmen?believe that they?are defending > free enterprise when they declaim that?business is not > concerned ?merely? with profit?but also with > promoting?desirable ?social? ends; that business has a > ?social conscience? and?takes?seriously its > responsibilities for providing employment,?eliminating > discrimination, avoiding pollution?and whatever else > may be?the catchwords of the contemporary crop of > reformers. In fact they?are?or would be if they or any > one else took them seriously? preaching?pure and > unadulterated?socialism. Businessmen who talk this way > are?unwitting puppets of the intellectual forces that > have?been undermining?the basis of a free society > these past decades. > > > It will be hard to find a better statement of the ideology > that has got us all into the current mess. > > On the left, was it with Lenin that capitalism became > viewed as a necessary prerequisite to socialism? For > example, as I understand it after the revolution in > Mexico, 1910-1920, the PRI (Partido Revolucionario > Institucional) worked hard to turn the indigenous peoples > into a proletariat. This was the only way they could > imagine societal progress: quickly moving the country into > capitalism so as to achieve socialism. I conclude that it > was not only Stalin who taught this. > > Martin > > >> On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:57 PM, David Kellogg >> > wrote: >> >> If you click on the link that Henry, and before him John, >> offered, you get the pro-natural-capital side of a debate >> in the pages of the Guardian on whether or not "nature" >> can be valued as capital and whether it is good or bad >> for nature for humans to do this. I think that in CHAT, >> we are indebted to Marx for many things, but surely one >> debt we would do well not to disavow is Marx's insistence >> (in Critique of the Gotha programme and elsewhere) that >> nature is NOT capital: on the contrary, humans and all of >> their various property forms from communism to capitalism >> must be considered peculiar forms of nature. This is a >> discussion that CHAT needs to have if we are going to >> retain the AT in CHAT. I disagree with Peter Jones on >> many many things, but one thing I heartily agree with him >> on is the idea that Leontiev brings an intensely >> anti-naturalistic view of activity into activity >> theory--humans acting as subjects on passive environments >> to produce beneficial outcomes. >> >> Marx had a better idea: in the Ethnological Notebooks, he >> shows us that capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as >> capital, is no universal stage (contrary to what Stalin >> taught). Western capitalism, with its idea of nature as >> capital, is really? just one extreme variant. In Marx's >> columns on the Sepoy rebellion and the Taiping rebellion, >> he even posits an "Asiantic mode of production" that had >> virtually nothing to do with feudalism. So to say that >> South Korea and Japan are equally capitalist societies is >> really a little like saying that China and the USSR were >> equally non-capitalist. Deus Sive Natura: and neither one >> is capital. >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: >> Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and >> between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky >> >> Some free e-prints today available at: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!Wc7U2Qr5zMgrKKeh_jEXkdulE0GgE_Mf1JJ9xPU3T2lU6DpYFZfSmiQ9Rs0MpFvgTTvJEA$ >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's >> Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Wc7U2Qr5zMgrKKeh_jEXkdulE0GgE_Mf1JJ9xPU3T2lU6DpYFZfSmiQ9Rs0MpFuXOtND3g$ >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 3:43 AM HENRY SHONERD >> > wrote: >> >> Martin, John and Andy >> Thanks to Martin for kicking off this topic and John >> and Andy for following up. I has amazed me to find, >> for me, how the RTZ narrative resonates with both >> Navajo and Pueblo narratives here in New Mexico. How >> evil RTZ ?is, but how wonderful the courage of our >> native peoples! >> >> Chaco Canyon IS a tourist destination here in New >> Mexico. Though there has been no destruction of the >> site that, based on Native American narratives and >> the efforts of archeologists, is architecturally >> spectacular evidence of the pre-Colombian culture >> from which the present-day Pueblos come. What >> parallels RTZ activities on aboriginal lands in >> Australia is the drilling for gas and oil on Navajo >> lands surrounding Chaco and a rush to buy more rights >> while Trump is in power. There have been protests, >> though nothing as intense and effective as the >> Standing Rock protests to protect water on native >> lands to our north and east from gas and oil >> predation (the pipeline). Standing Rock was LED by >> Native Americans, many from the Navajo, Apache and >> Pueblo near me. >> >> I just saw yesterday a 30-year-old film that is one >> of the offerings of the Vision Maker Film Festival: >> Clear Cut. I recommend it, or at least a look at the >> wiki article about it. It couldn?t be more timely. >> It?s messy, where contention between environmental >> and logging interests and division WITHIN the native >> community (traditon vs. jobs) leave one stunned. What >> redeems a messy struggle is exactly what Andy says: >> The aboriginal people of the world do it for us! In >> the same way, when ?our? Pueblos put on feasts and >> invite us in to witness their dances, they do it for >> us. Perhaps you recall the movie ?Koyaniskaatsi?, la >> Hopi word that has been translated as "life out of >> balance". (The Hopis are a Puebloan people, >> descendants of the Chacoan culture. The Navajos and >> Apaches arrived here about the same time as the >> European colonizers, based on linguistic and genetic >> evidence.) If you live in New Mexico, you are around >> Pueblo people. If you are really lucky, and many of >> us are, you become friends with them and they invite >> you to share their food at the feasts! How generous >> is this? They do it for us. >> >> The RTZ narrative is not only destructive to cultural >> capital, it is implicated in natural capital >> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/nov/23/monbiot-natural-capital-wrong-conservation__;!!Mih3wA!Wc7U2Qr5zMgrKKeh_jEXkdulE0GgE_Mf1JJ9xPU3T2lU6DpYFZfSmiQ9Rs0MpFvd3W3_xw$ >> ) >> via climate change. (The link here, to a Guardian >> article is available through the first link in John?s >> post). Here again we should look to our native >> peoples. There is credible research that concludes >> the climate change lengthens fire seasons but >> wrong-headed environmental policies make the fires >> more intense, hence less controllable. Add to this >> the incursion of housing into forested areas and the >> destruction is a doubly self-inflicted wound. And >> hold on for this one for the best CHAT connection: >> Native peoples of this continent used to set >> controlled burns to remove the kind of unburnt fuel >> to avoid such conflagrations. Today some of ?the >> best-trained and most effective firefighters in this >> country are Native Americans. Cultural capital. They >> do it for us, and their example from the past can >> serve us now. Cultural capital. >> >> I believe I have crowed before about New Mexico and >> our Native Americans. Australia has crowing rights as >> well. And, for standing proud, there?s nothing like >> an anthem. The best anthem music I have EVER heard >> comes from Australia: Yothu Yindi What a great >> project that brings together white people and people >> of color. What great creative collaboration. Andy, I >> am telling you again, project is a great unit of >> analysis, precisely because it brings together >> cognition and affect, because it embodies active >> orientation. In my country, it is pretty well agreed >> that the natives got screwed, across the political >> divide. Black Lives Matter is more complex, but there >> is hope that the question of race is now where LGBTQ >> issues were at the time of the AIDS crisis, in the >> last century. Back then we could never have guessed >> we would be where we are with non-gender-conforming >> acceptance now. Just saying, as much for myself as >> for anybody else listening. >> >> La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n >> Henry >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Er. " *NO *physical markers" >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> On 14/09/2020 11:43 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>> >>>> Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list before >>>> noticing that John had already responded, and John >>>> is much better informed than me about these >>>> matters, and yet I spoke as if he didn't exist. My >>>> apologies. >>>> >>>> These caves are nothing for tourism. They are too >>>> remote and there are others more accessible. I >>>> believe the caves have been under Native Title as a >>>> result of a bitter struggle to protect them by the >>>> local people in the 1990s. This means that RTZ had >>>> to get permission from the PKK people. The lawyers >>>> swindled them. >>>> >>>> In my view, all these sites which are not only part >>>> of Aboriginal heritage (there are places which have >>>> *NO *physical markers of their status but are >>>> sacred to the local people) but self-evidently of >>>> *world* heritage. But I don't think these caves >>>> were registered as World Heritage. I have not heard >>>> the discussion about this (John?). No-one wants to >>>> say this, I think, because it implies that >>>> Indigenous values are somehow less important than >>>> human values. For example, under the law as it >>>> stands the PKK Land Council would have a right to >>>> let RTZ destroy the caves and maybe a million >>>> dollars or two in the bank or a new school, would >>>> be enough. This is not a hypothetical. One of the >>>> reasons that the Indigenous people remain >>>> impoverished even where they have Native Title over >>>> large areas of land, is that they live, after all, >>>> in a capitalist country and Native title cannot be >>>> sold. It is not a commodity. Therefore it is not a >>>> form of wealth. You can't get a mortgage to build a >>>> house on land you own by Native title.? You can't >>>> sell a block to a farmer so you can buy >>>> agricultural equipment to farm another block. In >>>> short, by blocking the Indigenous people from >>>> monetising their land rights we trap them in >>>> poverty. In general, the indigenous people are >>>> happy to forgo tourist income to protect their >>>> sacred sites (e.g. Uluru) and I don't doubt for an >>>> instant, that if they'd been properly consulted >>>> they never would have agreed to the destruction of >>>> the caves. Obviously. But they do have to have >>>> rights to trade with their land. But also the world >>>> needs to keep absolutely unique archaeological >>>> sites pristine and the local people should be >>>> supported by governments to do the work of >>>> protecting them on *our* behalf. Recognising the >>>> great cost entailed. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>>>> Thanks, John and Andy, >>>>> >>>>> I suppose that I am naive, for this event >>>>> astonishes me in so many different ways. I would >>>>> have assumed that the land title or native title >>>>> granted to indigenous peoples over some territory >>>>> in Australia would have included the?Juuken Gorge >>>>> caves. I would have assumed that these caves were >>>>> a national cultural heritage site, or even a world >>>>> cultural heritage site. I would have assumed that >>>>> indigenous rights would have more importance to >>>>> the Australian government, and indeed to the >>>>> Australian people. I would have assumed that, >>>>> while mining is apparently of great economic >>>>> importance to the country, the government would >>>>> have considered the economic value of this site >>>>> for tourism, or simply the impact that destroying >>>>> the caves would have on Australia?s reputation. >>>>> And while I suppose that unbridled rapaciousness >>>>> on the part of an international mining company is >>>>> hardly a surprise, I would have thought that Rio >>>>> Tinto would also have considered the negative >>>>> publicity that their actions would create. >>>>> >>>>> How can we express our displeasure to the various >>>>> parties involved? Are there petitions that one can >>>>> sign? Or Twitter accounts to which one can tweet? >>>>> >>>>> I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO >>>>> Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if his bonus this year >>>>> would have been A$4.9 million. Perhaps he could >>>>> donate a few years of his salary to establish a >>>>> foundation that could work for indigenous peoples? >>>>> rights. >>>>> >>>>> sadly >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps Clark >>>>>> >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves (which >>>>>> I assume you are referring to) is a much more >>>>>> villainous act than was originally portrayed and >>>>>> reflects the venal racism not only of the company >>>>>> but also of the State Government. For those not >>>>>> familiar with this shocking crime, the $80b Anglo >>>>>> Australian mining company which on Sunday 24th of >>>>>> May blew up a site sacred to the Puutu Kunti >>>>>> Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) traditional owners >>>>>> and occupied for 46,000 years at least, to extend >>>>>> iron ore mining. "?It?s one of the most sacred >>>>>> sites in the Pilbara region ? we wanted to have >>>>>> that area protected,? PKKP director Burchell >>>>>> Hayes. The traditional owners tried desperately >>>>>> to stop the blast once they became aware it was >>>>>> impending. >>>>>> >>>>>> At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there was >>>>>> a misunderstanding" but and, after much outrage, >>>>>> the three members of the executive had their >>>>>> multi million dollar bonuses reduced. It has >>>>>> subsequently emerged that Rio Tinto had >>>>>> contracted lawyers to oppose any injunctions >>>>>> before the crime was committed. The chief >>>>>> executive and two of his underlings have resigned. >>>>>> >>>>>> The crime was legal and was made possible by >>>>>> State Government laws which are stacked in favour >>>>>> of miners. Assessments of the cultural and >>>>>> environmental significance are made with little >>>>>> investigation and remain in place for decades and >>>>>> have rarely been successfully be challenged. No >>>>>> permission to destroy heritage sites in WA has >>>>>> been refused (and there have been 463 >>>>>> applications). >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> It is not as if we didn?t know that this would >>>>>> happen. Norway's pension fund divested their >>>>>> holdings in Rio Tinto in 2008: "Exclusion of a >>>>>> company from the Fund reflects our unwillingness >>>>>> to run an unacceptable risk of contributing to >>>>>> grossly unethical conduct. The Council on Ethics >>>>>> has concluded that Rio Tinto is directly >>>>>> involved, through its participation in the >>>>>> Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the severe >>>>>> environmental damage caused by that mining >>>>>> operation." >>>>>> ?????Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of Finance >>>>>> >>>>>> A useful background briefing of indigenous rights >>>>>> in Australia: >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ?On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, >>>>>> "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> on >>>>>> behalf of Martin Packer" >>>>>> >>>>> on >>>>>> behalf of mpacker@cantab.net >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> ???Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up >>>>>> to?? >>>>>> >>>>>> ???Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Important Notice: The contents of this email are >>>>>> intended solely for the named addressee and are >>>>>> confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction >>>>>> or storage of the contents is expressly >>>>>> prohibited. If you have received this email in >>>>>> error, please delete it and any attachments >>>>>> immediately and advise the sender by return email >>>>>> or telephone. >>>>>> >>>>>> Deakin University does not warrant that this >>>>>> email and any attachments are error or virus free. >>>>>> >>>>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200916/67acf720/attachment.html From john.crippsclark@deakin.edu.au Tue Sep 15 17:43:50 2020 From: john.crippsclark@deakin.edu.au (John Cripps Clark) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 00:43:50 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> Message-ID: <49DF42B1-F690-49BC-A0E1-BB470E54B7AE@deakin.edu.au> For those who are interested, the Australian Federal Parliament is holding hearings on the Juunken Gorge desecration. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Joint/Northern_Australia/CavesatJuukanGorge__;!!Mih3wA!XHqf-ldJldYqPc5KC-Vsk-kDb7dSW0rY83KjtE4xtI-_x3MJ2fj-FzO8wV7fLyyHEvytUQ$ The submissions (so far as my quick survey has ascertained) seem to be mainly short statements of shock and suggestions (Prof Cochrane?s has a little more substance). You can still make submission https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Joint/Northern_Australia/CavesatJuukanGorge/Submissions__;!!Mih3wA!XHqf-ldJldYqPc5KC-Vsk-kDb7dSW0rY83KjtE4xtI-_x3MJ2fj-FzO8wV7fLyxTt7UknA$ The Committee?s hearings are broadcast at aph.gov.au/live . John From: on behalf of David Kellogg Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Wednesday, 16 September 2020 at 7:13 am To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc Anthony often wonders whether there is any necessary connection between Marxism and what he calls "leftism". Andy even has a video where he suggests that making that connection is not a "helpful" way of thinking about Marxist philosophy. I get it. When we read "The HIstorical Sense of the Crisis in Psychology" we hear Vygotsky asking his closest friends and collaborators NOT to use the term Marxism when referring to their work, not only because he doesn't want it associated with political pietism but also because he doesn't think that the current method of "copy and paste" quotes from Marx and Engels is yielding anything like a real Marxist psychology. (Interestingly, the late Lucien Seve believed that this criticism was directed at Deborin, but Andy thinks it is directed against mechanists like Bukharin). But to me Anthony's question answers itself. What he calls "leftism" is really just what Andy calls "world perezhivanie", it is sociogenesis made into conscious awareness. That is, it is human societies confronted by other societies and trying to change themselves rather than be changed. When they do this, even if they do not recognize any "final, complete, ideal form" (and Vygotsky says no such recognition is possible in Chapter Four of Foundations of Pedology) they become aware that the principles of blind adaptation themselves can be changed (as animals do) into those of design. Contrary to individuals adapting to the environment, societies that look after the old, the young, and the sick are made stronger and better, because the whole course of development is deliberate and indirect adaptation rather than blind and direct. . I think, Martin, that both Lenin and Trotsky believed strongly in the evitability of capitalism, and both considered it to be the key question of their time, both in the Russian and in the incipient Chinese revolution. They did come up with different solutions, and you are right to say that Lenin's solution lent itself much more easily to Stalin's believe in the five universal stages of human society (primitive communism, slavery, feudalism, capitalism and socialism). Lenin believed that the capitalist development of the Russian empire (which of course included many non-capitalist societies) can and should be stopped by a "democratic dictatorship of the proletariat and the peasantry", which would bring in capitalism but exercise dictatorship over the capitalists themselves, ensuring that the democratic tasks of the revolution (ensuring franchise to the disenfranchised, including land to the tillers) were carried out in a way that would enable a transition to socialism (withering away the state, common ownership of land). Trotsky believed that no capitalist stage would be necessary, because there would be revolutions in Germany, England, France, and above all the USA, and the world organization of production would allow non-capitalist societies to develop from primitive communism to true communism. When Joseph Glick wrote his "Prologue" to Volume Four of the (English) Vygotsky Collected Works, he argued that one reason why Vygotsky was so important to educators in the post-Piaget era was that he offered a way of doing without universal Piagetian stages. We now know, from the pedological work, that Vygotsky had his own stages in mind. But we still don't know if he saw the stages as evitable the way that Lenin did or whether he believed, as did Trotsky, in permanent revolution. (By the way, Renee Van der Veer has now published a translation of "Pedology of School Age"--in English!) https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D6WDK3H/ref=pe_385040_118058080_TE_M1DP__;!!Mih3wA!XHqf-ldJldYqPc5KC-Vsk-kDb7dSW0rY83KjtE4xtI-_x3MJ2fj-FzO8wV7fLywQPyhU3w$ David Kellogg Sangmyung University New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky Some free e-prints today available at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!XHqf-ldJldYqPc5KC-Vsk-kDb7dSW0rY83KjtE4xtI-_x3MJ2fj-FzO8wV7fLyzsa1fLdg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XHqf-ldJldYqPc5KC-Vsk-kDb7dSW0rY83KjtE4xtI-_x3MJ2fj-FzO8wV7fLyycZ5o__w$ On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 1:00 AM Martin Packer > wrote: capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). This happens to be something I?ve been thinking about recently ? the ?evitability? (avoidability, as opposed to inevitability) of capitalism. I?ve been reading some of the work of Douglass North, who won a Nobel prize in economics in 1993 for his analysis of the role that institutions have played in economic ?development,? He thought he was describing how the West achieved ?progress? and has been able to ?evolve? further than other regions, but one can read his work as describing alternative pathways in the formation of economic systems, which in the West has led to an imbalance in which profit and growth have become the only measures of societal and individual achievement. A neat illustration: the NY Times has been publishing reflections upon an article written 50 years ago by Milton Friedman titled "The Social Responsibility Of Business Is to Increase Its Profits." Friedman wrote: WHEN I hear businessmen speak eloquently about the ?social responsibilities of business in a free?enterprise system,? I am reminded of the wonderful line about the Frenchman who discovered at, the age of 70 that he had been speaking prose all his life. The businessmen believe that they are defending free enterprise when they declaim that business is not concerned ?merely? with profit but also with promoting desirable ?social? ends; that business has a ?social conscience? and takes seriously its responsibilities for providing employment, eliminating discrimination, avoiding pollution and whatever else may be the catchwords of the contemporary crop of reformers. In fact they are?or would be if they or any one else took them seriously? preaching pure and unadulterated socialism. Businessmen who talk this way are unwitting puppets of the intellectual forces that have been undermining the basis of a free society these past decades. It will be hard to find a better statement of the ideology that has got us all into the current mess. On the left, was it with Lenin that capitalism became viewed as a necessary prerequisite to socialism? For example, as I understand it after the revolution in Mexico, 1910-1920, the PRI (Partido Revolucionario Institucional) worked hard to turn the indigenous peoples into a proletariat. This was the only way they could imagine societal progress: quickly moving the country into capitalism so as to achieve socialism. I conclude that it was not only Stalin who taught this. Martin On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:57 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: If you click on the link that Henry, and before him John, offered, you get the pro-natural-capital side of a debate in the pages of the Guardian on whether or not "nature" can be valued as capital and whether it is good or bad for nature for humans to do this. I think that in CHAT, we are indebted to Marx for many things, but surely one debt we would do well not to disavow is Marx's insistence (in Critique of the Gotha programme and elsewhere) that nature is NOT capital: on the contrary, humans and all of their various property forms from communism to capitalism must be considered peculiar forms of nature. This is a discussion that CHAT needs to have if we are going to retain the AT in CHAT. I disagree with Peter Jones on many many things, but one thing I heartily agree with him on is the idea that Leontiev brings an intensely anti-naturalistic view of activity into activity theory--humans acting as subjects on passive environments to produce beneficial outcomes. Marx had a better idea: in the Ethnological Notebooks, he shows us that capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). Western capitalism, with its idea of nature as capital, is really just one extreme variant. In Marx's columns on the Sepoy rebellion and the Taiping rebellion, he even posits an "Asiantic mode of production" that had virtually nothing to do with feudalism. So to say that South Korea and Japan are equally capitalist societies is really a little like saying that China and the USSR were equally non-capitalist. Deus Sive Natura: and neither one is capital. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky Some free e-prints today available at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!XHqf-ldJldYqPc5KC-Vsk-kDb7dSW0rY83KjtE4xtI-_x3MJ2fj-FzO8wV7fLyzsa1fLdg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XHqf-ldJldYqPc5KC-Vsk-kDb7dSW0rY83KjtE4xtI-_x3MJ2fj-FzO8wV7fLyycZ5o__w$ On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 3:43 AM HENRY SHONERD > wrote: Martin, John and Andy Thanks to Martin for kicking off this topic and John and Andy for following up. I has amazed me to find, for me, how the RTZ narrative resonates with both Navajo and Pueblo narratives here in New Mexico. How evil RTZ is, but how wonderful the courage of our native peoples! Chaco Canyon IS a tourist destination here in New Mexico. Though there has been no destruction of the site that, based on Native American narratives and the efforts of archeologists, is architecturally spectacular evidence of the pre-Colombian culture from which the present-day Pueblos come. What parallels RTZ activities on aboriginal lands in Australia is the drilling for gas and oil on Navajo lands surrounding Chaco and a rush to buy more rights while Trump is in power. There have been protests, though nothing as intense and effective as the Standing Rock protests to protect water on native lands to our north and east from gas and oil predation (the pipeline). Standing Rock was LED by Native Americans, many from the Navajo, Apache and Pueblo near me. I just saw yesterday a 30-year-old film that is one of the offerings of the Vision Maker Film Festival: Clear Cut. I recommend it, or at least a look at the wiki article about it. It couldn?t be more timely. It?s messy, where contention between environmental and logging interests and division WITHIN the native community (traditon vs. jobs) leave one stunned. What redeems a messy struggle is exactly what Andy says: The aboriginal people of the world do it for us! In the same way, when ?our? Pueblos put on feasts and invite us in to witness their dances, they do it for us. Perhaps you recall the movie ?Koyaniskaatsi?, la Hopi word that has been translated as "life out of balance". (The Hopis are a Puebloan people, descendants of the Chacoan culture. The Navajos and Apaches arrived here about the same time as the European colonizers, based on linguistic and genetic evidence.) If you live in New Mexico, you are around Pueblo people. If you are really lucky, and many of us are, you become friends with them and they invite you to share their food at the feasts! How generous is this? They do it for us. The RTZ narrative is not only destructive to cultural capital, it is implicated in natural capital (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/nov/23/monbiot-natural-capital-wrong-conservation__;!!Mih3wA!XHqf-ldJldYqPc5KC-Vsk-kDb7dSW0rY83KjtE4xtI-_x3MJ2fj-FzO8wV7fLyxogaLruw$ ) via climate change. (The link here, to a Guardian article is available through the first link in John?s post). Here again we should look to our native peoples. There is credible research that concludes the climate change lengthens fire seasons but wrong-headed environmental policies make the fires more intense, hence less controllable. Add to this the incursion of housing into forested areas and the destruction is a doubly self-inflicted wound. And hold on for this one for the best CHAT connection: Native peoples of this continent used to set controlled burns to remove the kind of unburnt fuel to avoid such conflagrations. Today some of the best-trained and most effective firefighters in this country are Native Americans. Cultural capital. They do it for us, and their example from the past can serve us now. Cultural capital. I believe I have crowed before about New Mexico and our Native Americans. Australia has crowing rights as well. And, for standing proud, there?s nothing like an anthem. The best anthem music I have EVER heard comes from Australia: Yothu Yindi What a great project that brings together white people and people of color. What great creative collaboration. Andy, I am telling you again, project is a great unit of analysis, precisely because it brings together cognition and affect, because it embodies active orientation. In my country, it is pretty well agreed that the natives got screwed, across the political divide. Black Lives Matter is more complex, but there is hope that the question of race is now where LGBTQ issues were at the time of the AIDS crisis, in the last century. Back then we could never have guessed we would be where we are with non-gender-conforming acceptance now. Just saying, as much for myself as for anybody else listening. La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n Henry On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: Er. " NO physical markers" ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/09/2020 11:43 am, Andy Blunden wrote: Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list before noticing that John had already responded, and John is much better informed than me about these matters, and yet I spoke as if he didn't exist. My apologies. These caves are nothing for tourism. They are too remote and there are others more accessible. I believe the caves have been under Native Title as a result of a bitter struggle to protect them by the local people in the 1990s. This means that RTZ had to get permission from the PKK people. The lawyers swindled them. In my view, all these sites which are not only part of Aboriginal heritage (there are places which have NO physical markers of their status but are sacred to the local people) but self-evidently of world heritage. But I don't think these caves were registered as World Heritage. I have not heard the discussion about this (John?). No-one wants to say this, I think, because it implies that Indigenous values are somehow less important than human values. For example, under the law as it stands the PKK Land Council would have a right to let RTZ destroy the caves and maybe a million dollars or two in the bank or a new school, would be enough. This is not a hypothetical. One of the reasons that the Indigenous people remain impoverished even where they have Native Title over large areas of land, is that they live, after all, in a capitalist country and Native title cannot be sold. It is not a commodity. Therefore it is not a form of wealth. You can't get a mortgage to build a house on land you own by Native title. You can't sell a block to a farmer so you can buy agricultural equipment to farm another block. In short, by blocking the Indigenous people from monetising their land rights we trap them in poverty. In general, the indigenous people are happy to forgo tourist income to protect their sacred sites (e.g. Uluru) and I don't doubt for an instant, that if they'd been properly consulted they never would have agreed to the destruction of the caves. Obviously. But they do have to have rights to trade with their land. But also the world needs to keep absolutely unique archaeological sites pristine and the local people should be supported by governments to do the work of protecting them on our behalf. Recognising the great cost entailed. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote: Thanks, John and Andy, I suppose that I am naive, for this event astonishes me in so many different ways. I would have assumed that the land title or native title granted to indigenous peoples over some territory in Australia would have included the Juuken Gorge caves. I would have assumed that these caves were a national cultural heritage site, or even a world cultural heritage site. I would have assumed that indigenous rights would have more importance to the Australian government, and indeed to the Australian people. I would have assumed that, while mining is apparently of great economic importance to the country, the government would have considered the economic value of this site for tourism, or simply the impact that destroying the caves would have on Australia?s reputation. And while I suppose that unbridled rapaciousness on the part of an international mining company is hardly a surprise, I would have thought that Rio Tinto would also have considered the negative publicity that their actions would create. How can we express our displeasure to the various parties involved? Are there petitions that one can sign? Or Twitter accounts to which one can tweet? I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if his bonus this year would have been A$4.9 million. Perhaps he could donate a few years of his salary to establish a foundation that could work for indigenous peoples? rights. sadly Martin On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps Clark > wrote: The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves (which I assume you are referring to) is a much more villainous act than was originally portrayed and reflects the venal racism not only of the company but also of the State Government. For those not familiar with this shocking crime, the $80b Anglo Australian mining company which on Sunday 24th of May blew up a site sacred to the Puutu Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) traditional owners and occupied for 46,000 years at least, to extend iron ore mining. "?It?s one of the most sacred sites in the Pilbara region ? we wanted to have that area protected,? PKKP director Burchell Hayes. The traditional owners tried desperately to stop the blast once they became aware it was impending. At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there was a misunderstanding" but and, after much outrage, the three members of the executive had their multi million dollar bonuses reduced. It has subsequently emerged that Rio Tinto had contracted lawyers to oppose any injunctions before the crime was committed. The chief executive and two of his underlings have resigned. The crime was legal and was made possible by State Government laws which are stacked in favour of miners. Assessments of the cultural and environmental significance are made with little investigation and remain in place for decades and have rarely been successfully be challenged. No permission to destroy heritage sites in WA has been refused (and there have been 463 applications). https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ It is not as if we didn?t know that this would happen. Norway's pension fund divested their holdings in Rio Tinto in 2008: "Exclusion of a company from the Fund reflects our unwillingness to run an unacceptable risk of contributing to grossly unethical conduct. The Council on Ethics has concluded that Rio Tinto is directly involved, through its participation in the Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the severe environmental damage caused by that mining operation." ??Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of Finance A useful background briefing of indigenous rights in Australia: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin Packer" on behalf of mpacker@cantab.net> wrote: Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to?? Martin Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for the named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise the sender by return email or telephone. Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments are error or virus free. Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for the named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise the sender by return email or telephone. Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments are error or virus free. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200916/03a2c852/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Tue Sep 15 17:50:41 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 10:50:41 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> Message-ID: Thanks David. I think the reason that Vygotsky insisted on a General Psychology and specifically *not* a "Marxist" Psychology is indeed the same reason that I told Anthony that I think "Leftism" is not a helpful way to come to an understanding of Marxism. Our aim (this "we" constituted by our collaboration) is human emancipation. We need concepts which are *true*, irrespective of whether they are categorised as Left or Right. For example, in France and the UK climate change denial is more associated with the Left than the Right, while in Oz and the US climate change denial is associated with the Right. Political partisanship is no way to Science. Vygotsky wanted a Science, because his goal is human emancipation. Insofar as a Psychology defined itself as furthering *any *current of ideology, then it cannot be science. And BTW, that applies equally to Deborin or Bukharin. It remains the case though, in the words of the US commentator Seth Myers I think, that "reality has a liberal bias." Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/09/2020 7:10 am, David Kellogg wrote: > Anthony often wonders whether there is any necessary > connection between Marxism and what he calls "leftism". > Andy even has a video where he suggests that making that > connection is not a "helpful" way of thinking about > Marxist philosophy. > > I get?it. When we read "The HIstorical Sense of the Crisis > in Psychology" we hear Vygotsky asking his?closest?friends > and collaborators NOT to use the term Marxism when > referring to their work,?not only because he doesn't want > it associated with political pietism but also because he > doesn't think that the current method of "copy and paste" > quotes from Marx and Engels is yielding anything like a > real Marxist psychology. (Interestingly, the late Lucien > Seve believed that this criticism was directed at Deborin, > but Andy thinks it is directed against mechanists like > Bukharin). > > But to?me Anthony's question answers itself. What he calls > "leftism" is really just what Andy calls "world > perezhivanie", it is sociogenesis made into conscious > awareness. That is, it is human societies confronted by > other?societies and trying to change themselves rather > than be changed. When they do this, even if they do not > recognize any "final, complete, ideal form" (and Vygotsky > says no such recognition is possible in Chapter Four of > Foundations of Pedology) they become aware that the > principles of blind adaptation themselves can be changed > (as animals do) into those of design. Contrary to > individuals adapting to the environment, societies > that?look after the?old, the young, and the sick are made > stronger and better, because the whole course of > development is deliberate and indirect adaptation rather > than blind and direct.? ? ?. > > I think, Martin, that both Lenin and Trotsky believed > strongly in the evitability of capitalism, and both > considered it to be the key question of their time, both > in the Russian and in the incipient Chinese revolution. > They did come up with different solutions, and you are > right to say that Lenin's solution lent itself much more > easily to Stalin's believe in the five universal stages of > human society (primitive communism, slavery, feudalism, > capitalism and socialism). Lenin believed that the > capitalist development of the Russian empire (which of > course included many non-capitalist societies) can and > should be stopped by a "democratic dictatorship of the > proletariat and the peasantry", which would bring in > capitalism but exercise dictatorship over the capitalists > themselves, ensuring that the democratic tasks of the > revolution (ensuring franchise to the disenfranchised, > including land to the tillers) were carried out in a way > that would enable a transition to socialism (withering > away the state, common ownership of land). Trotsky > believed that no capitalist stage would be necessary, > because there would be revolutions in Germany, England, > France, and above all the USA,?and the world organization > of production would allow non-capitalist societies to > develop from primitive communism to true communism. > > When Joseph Glick wrote his "Prologue" to Volume Four of > the (English) Vygotsky Collected Works, he argued that one > reason why Vygotsky was so important to educators in the > post-Piaget era was that he offered a way of doing without > universal Piagetian stages. We now know, from the > pedological work, that Vygotsky had his own stages in > mind. But we still don't know if he saw the stages as > evitable the way that Lenin did or whether he believed, as > did Trotsky, in permanent revolution. > (By the way, Renee Van der Veer has now published a > translation of "Pedology of School Age"--in English!) > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D6WDK3H/ref=pe_385040_118058080_TE_M1DP__;!!Mih3wA!Uq4amehuoQoHAlk4pfIfv-eA_bmxFVvdeERLjc0oFCmDDI_BvjReGnd7iklTasejC-yG2A$ > > > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: > Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and > between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky > > Some free e-prints today available at: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!Uq4amehuoQoHAlk4pfIfv-eA_bmxFVvdeERLjc0oFCmDDI_BvjReGnd7iklTasd0mHVCxQ$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's > Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Uq4amehuoQoHAlk4pfIfv-eA_bmxFVvdeERLjc0oFCmDDI_BvjReGnd7iklTase-8Me-ww$ > > > > On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 1:00 AM Martin Packer > > wrote: > >> capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, >> is no universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). > > This happens to be something I?ve been thinking about > recently ? the ?evitability? (avoidability, as opposed > to inevitability) of capitalism. I?ve been reading > some of the work of Douglass North, who won a Nobel > prize in economics in 1993 for his analysis of the > role that institutions have played in economic > ?development,? He thought ?he was describing how the > West achieved ?progress? and has been able to ?evolve? > further than other regions, but one can read his work > as describing alternative pathways in the formation of > economic systems, which in the West has led to an > imbalance in which profit and growth have become the > only measures of societal and individual achievement. > > A neat illustration: the NY Times has been publishing > reflections upon an article written 50 years ago by > Milton Friedman titled "The Social Responsibility Of > Business Is to?Increase Its Profits." Friedman wrote: > > WHEN I hear businessmen speak eloquently about the > ?social?responsibilities of business in > a?free?enterprise system,? I am reminded?of the > wonderful line about the Frenchman who > discovered?at, the age of?70 that he had been > speaking prose all his life. The > businessmen?believe that they?are defending free > enterprise when they declaim that?business is not > concerned ?merely? with profit?but also with > promoting?desirable ?social? ends; that business > has a ?social conscience? and?takes?seriously its > responsibilities for providing > employment,?eliminating discrimination, avoiding > pollution?and whatever else may be?the catchwords > of the contemporary crop of reformers. In fact > they?are?or would be if they or any one else took > them seriously? preaching?pure and > unadulterated?socialism. Businessmen who talk this > way are?unwitting puppets of the intellectual > forces that have?been undermining?the basis of a > free society these past decades. > > > It will be hard to find a better statement of the > ideology that has got us all into the current mess. > > On the left, was it with Lenin that capitalism became > viewed as a necessary prerequisite to socialism? For > example, as I understand it after the revolution in > Mexico, 1910-1920, the PRI (Partido Revolucionario > Institucional) worked hard to turn the indigenous > peoples into a proletariat. This was the only way they > could imagine societal progress: quickly moving the > country into capitalism so as to achieve socialism. I > conclude that it was not only Stalin who taught this. > > Martin > > >> On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:57 PM, David Kellogg >> > >> wrote: >> >> If you click on the link that Henry, and before him >> John, offered, you get the pro-natural-capital side >> of a debate in the pages of the Guardian on whether >> or not "nature" can be valued as capital and whether >> it is good or bad for nature for humans to do this. I >> think that in CHAT, we are indebted to Marx for many >> things, but surely one debt we would do well not to >> disavow is Marx's insistence (in Critique of the >> Gotha programme and elsewhere) that nature is NOT >> capital: on the contrary, humans and all of their >> various property forms from communism to capitalism >> must be considered peculiar forms of nature. This is >> a discussion that CHAT needs to have if we are going >> to retain the AT in CHAT. I disagree with Peter Jones >> on many many things, but one thing I heartily agree >> with him on is the idea that Leontiev brings an >> intensely anti-naturalistic view of activity into >> activity theory--humans acting as subjects on passive >> environments to produce beneficial outcomes. >> >> Marx had a better idea: in the Ethnological >> Notebooks, he shows us that capitalism, and hence the >> idea of nature as capital, is no universal stage >> (contrary to what Stalin taught). Western capitalism, >> with its idea of nature as capital, is really? just >> one extreme variant. In Marx's columns on the Sepoy >> rebellion and the Taiping rebellion, he even posits >> an "Asiantic mode of production" that had virtually >> nothing to do with feudalism. So to say that South >> Korea and Japan are equally capitalist societies is >> really a little like saying that China and the USSR >> were equally non-capitalist. Deus Sive Natura: and >> neither one is capital. >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: >> Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in >> and between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky >> >> Some free e-prints today available at: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!Uq4amehuoQoHAlk4pfIfv-eA_bmxFVvdeERLjc0oFCmDDI_BvjReGnd7iklTasd0mHVCxQ$ >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's >> Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Uq4amehuoQoHAlk4pfIfv-eA_bmxFVvdeERLjc0oFCmDDI_BvjReGnd7iklTase-8Me-ww$ >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 3:43 AM HENRY SHONERD >> > wrote: >> >> Martin, John and Andy >> Thanks to Martin for kicking off this topic and >> John and Andy for following up. I has amazed me >> to find, for me, how the RTZ narrative resonates >> with both Navajo and Pueblo narratives here in >> New Mexico. How evil RTZ ?is, but how wonderful >> the courage of our native peoples! >> >> Chaco Canyon IS a tourist destination here in New >> Mexico. Though there has been no destruction of >> the site that, based on Native American >> narratives and the efforts of archeologists, is >> architecturally spectacular evidence of the >> pre-Colombian culture from which the present-day >> Pueblos come. What parallels RTZ activities on >> aboriginal lands in Australia is the drilling for >> gas and oil on Navajo lands surrounding Chaco and >> a rush to buy more rights while Trump is in >> power. There have been protests, though nothing >> as intense and effective as the Standing Rock >> protests to protect water on native lands to our >> north and east from gas and oil predation (the >> pipeline). Standing Rock was LED by Native >> Americans, many from the Navajo, Apache and >> Pueblo near me. >> >> I just saw yesterday a 30-year-old film that is >> one of the offerings of the Vision Maker Film >> Festival: Clear Cut. I recommend it, or at least >> a look at the wiki article about it. It couldn?t >> be more timely. It?s messy, where contention >> between environmental and logging interests and >> division WITHIN the native community (traditon >> vs. jobs) leave one stunned. What redeems a messy >> struggle is exactly what Andy says: The >> aboriginal people of the world do it for us! In >> the same way, when ?our? Pueblos put on feasts >> and invite us in to witness their dances, they do >> it for us. Perhaps you recall the movie >> ?Koyaniskaatsi?, la Hopi word that has been >> translated as "life out of balance". (The Hopis >> are a Puebloan people, descendants of the Chacoan >> culture. The Navajos and Apaches arrived here >> about the same time as the European colonizers, >> based on linguistic and genetic evidence.) If you >> live in New Mexico, you are around Pueblo people. >> If you are really lucky, and many of us are, you >> become friends with them and they invite you to >> share their food at the feasts! How generous is >> this? They do it for us. >> >> The RTZ narrative is not only destructive to >> cultural capital, it is implicated in natural >> capital >> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/nov/23/monbiot-natural-capital-wrong-conservation__;!!Mih3wA!Uq4amehuoQoHAlk4pfIfv-eA_bmxFVvdeERLjc0oFCmDDI_BvjReGnd7iklTasev1Nfbag$ >> ) >> via climate change. (The link here, to a Guardian >> article is available through the first link in >> John?s post). Here again we should look to our >> native peoples. There is credible research that >> concludes the climate change lengthens fire >> seasons but wrong-headed environmental policies >> make the fires more intense, hence less >> controllable. Add to this the incursion of >> housing into forested areas and the destruction >> is a doubly self-inflicted wound. And hold on for >> this one for the best CHAT connection: Native >> peoples of this continent used to set controlled >> burns to remove the kind of unburnt fuel to avoid >> such conflagrations. Today some of ?the >> best-trained and most effective firefighters in >> this country are Native Americans. Cultural >> capital. They do it for us, and their example >> from the past can serve us now. Cultural capital. >> >> I believe I have crowed before about New Mexico >> and our Native Americans. Australia has crowing >> rights as well. And, for standing proud, there?s >> nothing like an anthem. The best anthem music I >> have EVER heard comes from Australia: Yothu Yindi >> What a great project that brings together white >> people and people of color. What great creative >> collaboration. Andy, I am telling you again, >> project is a great unit of analysis, precisely >> because it brings together cognition and affect, >> because it embodies active orientation. In my >> country, it is pretty well agreed that the >> natives got screwed, across the political divide. >> Black Lives Matter is more complex, but there is >> hope that the question of race is now where LGBTQ >> issues were at the time of the AIDS crisis, in >> the last century. Back then we could never have >> guessed we would be where we are with >> non-gender-conforming acceptance now. Just >> saying, as much for myself as for anybody else >> listening. >> >> La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n >> Henry >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> Er. " *NO *physical markers" >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> On 14/09/2020 11:43 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>> >>>> Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list >>>> before noticing that John had already >>>> responded, and John is much better informed >>>> than me about these matters, and yet I spoke as >>>> if he didn't exist. My apologies. >>>> >>>> These caves are nothing for tourism. They are >>>> too remote and there are others more >>>> accessible. I believe the caves have been under >>>> Native Title as a result of a bitter struggle >>>> to protect them by the local people in the >>>> 1990s. This means that RTZ had to get >>>> permission from the PKK people. The lawyers >>>> swindled them. >>>> >>>> In my view, all these sites which are not only >>>> part of Aboriginal heritage (there are places >>>> which have *NO *physical markers of their >>>> status but are sacred to the local people) but >>>> self-evidently of *world* heritage. But I don't >>>> think these caves were registered as World >>>> Heritage. I have not heard the discussion about >>>> this (John?). No-one wants to say this, I >>>> think, because it implies that Indigenous >>>> values are somehow less important than human >>>> values. For example, under the law as it stands >>>> the PKK Land Council would have a right to let >>>> RTZ destroy the caves and maybe a million >>>> dollars or two in the bank or a new school, >>>> would be enough. This is not a hypothetical. >>>> One of the reasons that the Indigenous people >>>> remain impoverished even where they have Native >>>> Title over large areas of land, is that they >>>> live, after all, in a capitalist country and >>>> Native title cannot be sold. It is not a >>>> commodity. Therefore it is not a form of >>>> wealth. You can't get a mortgage to build a >>>> house on land you own by Native title. You >>>> can't sell a block to a farmer so you can buy >>>> agricultural equipment to farm another block. >>>> In short, by blocking the Indigenous people >>>> from monetising their land rights we trap them >>>> in poverty. In general, the indigenous people >>>> are happy to forgo tourist income to protect >>>> their sacred sites (e.g. Uluru) and I don't >>>> doubt for an instant, that if they'd been >>>> properly consulted they never would have agreed >>>> to the destruction of the caves. Obviously. But >>>> they do have to have rights to trade with their >>>> land. But also the world needs to keep >>>> absolutely unique archaeological sites pristine >>>> and the local people should be supported by >>>> governments to do the work of protecting them >>>> on *our* behalf. Recognising the great cost >>>> entailed. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>>>> Thanks, John and Andy, >>>>> >>>>> I suppose that I am naive, for this event >>>>> astonishes me in so many different ways. I >>>>> would have assumed that the land title or >>>>> native title granted to indigenous peoples >>>>> over some territory in Australia would have >>>>> included the?Juuken Gorge caves. I would have >>>>> assumed that these caves were a national >>>>> cultural heritage site, or even a world >>>>> cultural heritage site. I would have assumed >>>>> that indigenous rights would have more >>>>> importance to the Australian government, and >>>>> indeed to the Australian people. I would have >>>>> assumed that, while mining is apparently of >>>>> great economic importance to the country, the >>>>> government would have considered the economic >>>>> value of this site for tourism, or simply the >>>>> impact that destroying the caves would have on >>>>> Australia?s reputation. And while I suppose >>>>> that unbridled rapaciousness on the part of an >>>>> international mining company is hardly a >>>>> surprise, I would have thought that Rio Tinto >>>>> would also have considered the negative >>>>> publicity that their actions would create. >>>>> >>>>> How can we express our displeasure to the >>>>> various parties involved? Are there petitions >>>>> that one can sign? Or Twitter accounts to >>>>> which one can tweet? >>>>> >>>>> I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO >>>>> Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if his bonus this year >>>>> would have been A$4.9 million. Perhaps he >>>>> could donate a few years of his salary to >>>>> establish a foundation that could work for >>>>> indigenous peoples? rights. >>>>> >>>>> sadly >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps >>>>>> Clark >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves >>>>>> (which I assume you are referring to) is a >>>>>> much more villainous act than was originally >>>>>> portrayed and reflects the venal racism not >>>>>> only of the company but also of the State >>>>>> Government. For those not familiar with this >>>>>> shocking crime, the $80b Anglo Australian >>>>>> mining company which on Sunday 24th of May >>>>>> blew up a site sacred to the Puutu Kunti >>>>>> Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) traditional >>>>>> owners and occupied for 46,000 years at >>>>>> least, to extend iron ore mining. "?It?s one >>>>>> of the most sacred sites in the Pilbara >>>>>> region ? we wanted to have that area >>>>>> protected,? PKKP director Burchell Hayes. The >>>>>> traditional owners tried desperately to stop >>>>>> the blast once they became aware it was >>>>>> impending. >>>>>> >>>>>> At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there >>>>>> was a misunderstanding" but and, after much >>>>>> outrage, the three members of the executive >>>>>> had their multi million dollar bonuses >>>>>> reduced. It has subsequently emerged that Rio >>>>>> Tinto had contracted lawyers to oppose any >>>>>> injunctions before the crime was committed. >>>>>> The chief executive and two of his underlings >>>>>> have resigned. >>>>>> >>>>>> The crime was legal and was made possible by >>>>>> State Government laws which are stacked in >>>>>> favour of miners. Assessments of the cultural >>>>>> and environmental significance are made with >>>>>> little investigation and remain in place for >>>>>> decades and have rarely been successfully be >>>>>> challenged. No permission to destroy heritage >>>>>> sites in WA has been refused (and there have >>>>>> been 463 applications). >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> It is not as if we didn?t know that this >>>>>> would happen. Norway's pension fund divested >>>>>> their holdings in Rio Tinto in 2008: >>>>>> "Exclusion of a company from the Fund >>>>>> reflects our unwillingness to run an >>>>>> unacceptable risk of contributing to grossly >>>>>> unethical conduct. The Council on Ethics has >>>>>> concluded that Rio Tinto is directly >>>>>> involved, through its participation in the >>>>>> Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the severe >>>>>> environmental damage caused by that mining >>>>>> operation." >>>>>> ?????Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of >>>>>> Finance >>>>>> >>>>>> A useful background briefing of indigenous >>>>>> rights in Australia: >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ?On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, >>>>>> "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> on >>>>>> behalf of Martin Packer" >>>>>> >>>>> on >>>>>> behalf of mpacker@cantab.net >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> ???Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc >>>>>> been up to?? >>>>>> >>>>>> ???Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Important Notice: The contents of this email >>>>>> are intended solely for the named addressee >>>>>> and are confidential; any unauthorised use, >>>>>> reproduction or storage of the contents is >>>>>> expressly prohibited. If you have received >>>>>> this email in error, please delete it and any >>>>>> attachments immediately and advise the sender >>>>>> by return email or telephone. >>>>>> >>>>>> Deakin University does not warrant that this >>>>>> email and any attachments are error or virus >>>>>> free. >>>>>> >>>>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200916/507ca8e6/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Tue Sep 15 17:59:43 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 19:59:43 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: <49DF42B1-F690-49BC-A0E1-BB470E54B7AE@deakin.edu.au> References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> <49DF42B1-F690-49BC-A0E1-BB470E54B7AE@deakin.edu.au> Message-ID: <3AE85C8E-C3CA-471A-B102-FE29D3D36FE9@cantab.net> I found some petitions? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.getup.org.au/campaigns/first-nations-justice-campaigns/urgent-action-to-save-aboriginal-sacred-sites-7__;!!Mih3wA!TgfXLDOD2gm0oAj7Srm15zATRoI1OxHIWkMjCkyOi-WvwSfodQrlKRviDIujbUgi0Ax2XA$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.change.org/p/rio-tinto-board-of-directors-hold-rio-tinto-to-account__;!!Mih3wA!TgfXLDOD2gm0oAj7Srm15zATRoI1OxHIWkMjCkyOi-WvwSfodQrlKRviDIujbUimFRA3lA$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://act.350.org/sign/ask-rio-tinto-leave-mca__;!!Mih3wA!TgfXLDOD2gm0oAj7Srm15zATRoI1OxHIWkMjCkyOi-WvwSfodQrlKRviDIujbUiSixeA0g$ Martin > On Sep 15, 2020, at 7:43 PM, John Cripps Clark wrote: > > For those who are interested, the Australian Federal Parliament is holding hearings on the Juunken Gorge desecration. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Joint/Northern_Australia/CavesatJuukanGorge__;!!Mih3wA!TgfXLDOD2gm0oAj7Srm15zATRoI1OxHIWkMjCkyOi-WvwSfodQrlKRviDIujbUiH4nFOBA$ > > The submissions (so far as my quick survey has ascertained) seem to be mainly short statements of shock and suggestions (Prof Cochrane?s has a little more substance). You can still make submission > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Joint/Northern_Australia/CavesatJuukanGorge/Submissions__;!!Mih3wA!TgfXLDOD2gm0oAj7Srm15zATRoI1OxHIWkMjCkyOi-WvwSfodQrlKRviDIujbUji161u4Q$ > > The Committee?s hearings are broadcast at aph.gov.au/live . > > John > > From: > on behalf of David Kellogg > > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Date: Wednesday, 16 September 2020 at 7:13 am > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc > > Anthony often wonders whether there is any necessary connection between Marxism and what he calls "leftism". Andy even has a video where he suggests that making that connection is not a "helpful" way of thinking about Marxist philosophy. > > I get it. When we read "The HIstorical Sense of the Crisis in Psychology" we hear Vygotsky asking his closest friends and collaborators NOT to use the term Marxism when referring to their work, not only because he doesn't want it associated with political pietism but also because he doesn't think that the current method of "copy and paste" quotes from Marx and Engels is yielding anything like a real Marxist psychology. (Interestingly, the late Lucien Seve believed that this criticism was directed at Deborin, but Andy thinks it is directed against mechanists like Bukharin). > > But to me Anthony's question answers itself. What he calls "leftism" is really just what Andy calls "world perezhivanie", it is sociogenesis made into conscious awareness. That is, it is human societies confronted by other societies and trying to change themselves rather than be changed. When they do this, even if they do not recognize any "final, complete, ideal form" (and Vygotsky says no such recognition is possible in Chapter Four of Foundations of Pedology) they become aware that the principles of blind adaptation themselves can be changed (as animals do) into those of design. Contrary to individuals adapting to the environment, societies that look after the old, the young, and the sick are made stronger and better, because the whole course of development is deliberate and indirect adaptation rather than blind and direct. . > > I think, Martin, that both Lenin and Trotsky believed strongly in the evitability of capitalism, and both considered it to be the key question of their time, both in the Russian and in the incipient Chinese revolution. They did come up with different solutions, and you are right to say that Lenin's solution lent itself much more easily to Stalin's believe in the five universal stages of human society (primitive communism, slavery, feudalism, capitalism and socialism). Lenin believed that the capitalist development of the Russian empire (which of course included many non-capitalist societies) can and should be stopped by a "democratic dictatorship of the proletariat and the peasantry", which would bring in capitalism but exercise dictatorship over the capitalists themselves, ensuring that the democratic tasks of the revolution (ensuring franchise to the disenfranchised, including land to the tillers) were carried out in a way that would enable a transition to socialism (withering away the state, common ownership of land). Trotsky believed that no capitalist stage would be necessary, because there would be revolutions in Germany, England, France, and above all the USA, and the world organization of production would allow non-capitalist societies to develop from primitive communism to true communism. > > When Joseph Glick wrote his "Prologue" to Volume Four of the (English) Vygotsky Collected Works, he argued that one reason why Vygotsky was so important to educators in the post-Piaget era was that he offered a way of doing without universal Piagetian stages. We now know, from the pedological work, that Vygotsky had his own stages in mind. But we still don't know if he saw the stages as evitable the way that Lenin did or whether he believed, as did Trotsky, in permanent revolution. > > (By the way, Renee Van der Veer has now published a translation of "Pedology of School Age"--in English!) > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D6WDK3H/ref=pe_385040_118058080_TE_M1DP__;!!Mih3wA!TgfXLDOD2gm0oAj7Srm15zATRoI1OxHIWkMjCkyOi-WvwSfodQrlKRviDIujbUhrk1mbvQ$ > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: > Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky > > Some free e-prints today available at: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!TgfXLDOD2gm0oAj7Srm15zATRoI1OxHIWkMjCkyOi-WvwSfodQrlKRviDIujbUiJg9Egfw$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TgfXLDOD2gm0oAj7Srm15zATRoI1OxHIWkMjCkyOi-WvwSfodQrlKRviDIujbUguX3ElVg$ > > > On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 1:00 AM Martin Packer > wrote: >>> capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). >> >> >> This happens to be something I?ve been thinking about recently ? the ?evitability? (avoidability, as opposed to inevitability) of capitalism. I?ve been reading some of the work of Douglass North, who won a Nobel prize in economics in 1993 for his analysis of the role that institutions have played in economic ?development,? He thought he was describing how the West achieved ?progress? and has been able to ?evolve? further than other regions, but one can read his work as describing alternative pathways in the formation of economic systems, which in the West has led to an imbalance in which profit and growth have become the only measures of societal and individual achievement. >> >> A neat illustration: the NY Times has been publishing reflections upon an article written 50 years ago by Milton Friedman titled "The Social Responsibility Of Business Is to Increase Its Profits." Friedman wrote: >> >>> WHEN I hear businessmen speak eloquently about the ?social responsibilities of business in a free?enterprise system,? I am reminded of the wonderful line about the Frenchman who discovered at, the age of 70 that he had been speaking prose all his life. The businessmen believe that they are defending free enterprise when they declaim that business is not concerned ?merely? with profit but also with promoting desirable ?social? ends; that business has a ?social conscience? and takes seriously its responsibilities for providing employment, eliminating discrimination, avoiding pollution and whatever else may be the catchwords of the contemporary crop of reformers. In fact they are?or would be if they or any one else took them seriously? preaching pure and unadulterated socialism. Businessmen who talk this way are unwitting puppets of the intellectual forces that have been undermining the basis of a free society these past decades. >> >> It will be hard to find a better statement of the ideology that has got us all into the current mess. >> >> On the left, was it with Lenin that capitalism became viewed as a necessary prerequisite to socialism? For example, as I understand it after the revolution in Mexico, 1910-1920, the PRI (Partido Revolucionario Institucional) worked hard to turn the indigenous peoples into a proletariat. This was the only way they could imagine societal progress: quickly moving the country into capitalism so as to achieve socialism. I conclude that it was not only Stalin who taught this. >> >> Martin >> >> >> >>> On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:57 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: >>> >>> If you click on the link that Henry, and before him John, offered, you get the pro-natural-capital side of a debate in the pages of the Guardian on whether or not "nature" can be valued as capital and whether it is good or bad for nature for humans to do this. I think that in CHAT, we are indebted to Marx for many things, but surely one debt we would do well not to disavow is Marx's insistence (in Critique of the Gotha programme and elsewhere) that nature is NOT capital: on the contrary, humans and all of their various property forms from communism to capitalism must be considered peculiar forms of nature. This is a discussion that CHAT needs to have if we are going to retain the AT in CHAT. I disagree with Peter Jones on many many things, but one thing I heartily agree with him on is the idea that Leontiev brings an intensely anti-naturalistic view of activity into activity theory--humans acting as subjects on passive environments to produce beneficial outcomes. >>> >>> Marx had a better idea: in the Ethnological Notebooks, he shows us that capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). Western capitalism, with its idea of nature as capital, is really just one extreme variant. In Marx's columns on the Sepoy rebellion and the Taiping rebellion, he even posits an "Asiantic mode of production" that had virtually nothing to do with feudalism. So to say that South Korea and Japan are equally capitalist societies is really a little like saying that China and the USSR were equally non-capitalist. Deus Sive Natura: and neither one is capital. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: >>> Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky >>> >>> Some free e-prints today available at: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!TgfXLDOD2gm0oAj7Srm15zATRoI1OxHIWkMjCkyOi-WvwSfodQrlKRviDIujbUiJg9Egfw$ >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TgfXLDOD2gm0oAj7Srm15zATRoI1OxHIWkMjCkyOi-WvwSfodQrlKRviDIujbUguX3ElVg$ >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 3:43 AM HENRY SHONERD > wrote: >>>> Martin, John and Andy >>>> Thanks to Martin for kicking off this topic and John and Andy for following up. I has amazed me to find, for me, how the RTZ narrative resonates with both Navajo and Pueblo narratives here in New Mexico. How evil RTZ is, but how wonderful the courage of our native peoples! >>>> >>>> Chaco Canyon IS a tourist destination here in New Mexico. Though there has been no destruction of the site that, based on Native American narratives and the efforts of archeologists, is architecturally spectacular evidence of the pre-Colombian culture from which the present-day Pueblos come. What parallels RTZ activities on aboriginal lands in Australia is the drilling for gas and oil on Navajo lands surrounding Chaco and a rush to buy more rights while Trump is in power. There have been protests, though nothing as intense and effective as the Standing Rock protests to protect water on native lands to our north and east from gas and oil predation (the pipeline). Standing Rock was LED by Native Americans, many from the Navajo, Apache and Pueblo near me. >>>> >>>> I just saw yesterday a 30-year-old film that is one of the offerings of the Vision Maker Film Festival: Clear Cut. I recommend it, or at least a look at the wiki article about it. It couldn?t be more timely. It?s messy, where contention between environmental and logging interests and division WITHIN the native community (traditon vs. jobs) leave one stunned. What redeems a messy struggle is exactly what Andy says: The aboriginal people of the world do it for us! In the same way, when ?our? Pueblos put on feasts and invite us in to witness their dances, they do it for us. Perhaps you recall the movie ?Koyaniskaatsi?, la Hopi word that has been translated as "life out of balance". (The Hopis are a Puebloan people, descendants of the Chacoan culture. The Navajos and Apaches arrived here about the same time as the European colonizers, based on linguistic and genetic evidence.) If you live in New Mexico, you are around Pueblo people. If you are really lucky, and many of us are, you become friends with them and they invite you to share their food at the feasts! How generous is this? They do it for us. >>>> >>>> The RTZ narrative is not only destructive to cultural capital, it is implicated in natural capital (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/nov/23/monbiot-natural-capital-wrong-conservation__;!!Mih3wA!TgfXLDOD2gm0oAj7Srm15zATRoI1OxHIWkMjCkyOi-WvwSfodQrlKRviDIujbUg5PhrclQ$ ) via climate change. (The link here, to a Guardian article is available through the first link in John?s post). Here again we should look to our native peoples. There is credible research that concludes the climate change lengthens fire seasons but wrong-headed environmental policies make the fires more intense, hence less controllable. Add to this the incursion of housing into forested areas and the destruction is a doubly self-inflicted wound. And hold on for this one for the best CHAT connection: Native peoples of this continent used to set controlled burns to remove the kind of unburnt fuel to avoid such conflagrations. Today some of the best-trained and most effective firefighters in this country are Native Americans. Cultural capital. They do it for us, and their example from the past can serve us now. Cultural capital. >>>> >>>> I believe I have crowed before about New Mexico and our Native Americans. Australia has crowing rights as well. And, for standing proud, there?s nothing like an anthem. The best anthem music I have EVER heard comes from Australia: Yothu Yindi What a great project that brings together white people and people of color. What great creative collaboration. Andy, I am telling you again, project is a great unit of analysis, precisely because it brings together cognition and affect, because it embodies active orientation. In my country, it is pretty well agreed that the natives got screwed, across the political divide. Black Lives Matter is more complex, but there is hope that the question of race is now where LGBTQ issues were at the time of the AIDS crisis, in the last century. Back then we could never have guessed we would be where we are with non-gender-conforming acceptance now. Just saying, as much for myself as for anybody else listening. >>>> >>>> La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Er. " NO physical markers" >>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> Home Page >>>>> On 14/09/2020 11:43 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>>>> Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list before noticing that John had already responded, and John is much better informed than me about these matters, and yet I spoke as if he didn't exist. My apologies. >>>>>> These caves are nothing for tourism. They are too remote and there are others more accessible. I believe the caves have been under Native Title as a result of a bitter struggle to protect them by the local people in the 1990s. This means that RTZ had to get permission from the PKK people. The lawyers swindled them. >>>>>> In my view, all these sites which are not only part of Aboriginal heritage (there are places which have NO physical markers of their status but are sacred to the local people) but self-evidently of worldheritage. But I don't think these caves were registered as World Heritage. I have not heard the discussion about this (John?). No-one wants to say this, I think, because it implies that Indigenous values are somehow less important than human values. For example, under the law as it stands the PKK Land Council would have a right to let RTZ destroy the caves and maybe a million dollars or two in the bank or a new school, would be enough. This is not a hypothetical. One of the reasons that the Indigenous people remain impoverished even where they have Native Title over large areas of land, is that they live, after all, in a capitalist country and Native title cannot be sold. It is not a commodity. Therefore it is not a form of wealth. You can't get a mortgage to build a house on land you own by Native title. You can't sell a block to a farmer so you can buy agricultural equipment to farm another block. In short, by blocking the Indigenous people from monetising their land rights we trap them in poverty. In general, the indigenous people are happy to forgo tourist income to protect their sacred sites (e.g. Uluru) and I don't doubt for an instant, that if they'd been properly consulted they never would have agreed to the destruction of the caves. Obviously. But they do have to have rights to trade with their land. But also the world needs to keep absolutely unique archaeological sites pristine and the local people should be supported by governments to do the work of protecting them on our behalf. Recognising the great cost entailed. >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>> Home Page >>>>>> On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>>>>>> Thanks, John and Andy, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I suppose that I am naive, for this event astonishes me in so many different ways. I would have assumed that the land title or native title granted to indigenous peoples over some territory in Australia would have included the Juuken Gorge caves. I would have assumed that these caves were a national cultural heritage site, or even a world cultural heritage site. I would have assumed that indigenous rights would have more importance to the Australian government, and indeed to the Australian people. I would have assumed that, while mining is apparently of great economic importance to the country, the government would have considered the economic value of this site for tourism, or simply the impact that destroying the caves would have on Australia?s reputation. And while I suppose that unbridled rapaciousness on the part of an international mining company is hardly a surprise, I would have thought that Rio Tinto would also have considered the negative publicity that their actions would create. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How can we express our displeasure to the various parties involved? Are there petitions that one can sign? Or Twitter accounts to which one can tweet? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if his bonus this year would have been A$4.9 million. Perhaps he could donate a few years of his salary to establish a foundation that could work for indigenous peoples? rights. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> sadly >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps Clark > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves (which I assume you are referring to) is a much more villainous act than was originally portrayed and reflects the venal racism not only of the company but also of the State Government. For those not familiar with this shocking crime, the $80b Anglo Australian mining company which on Sunday 24th of May blew up a site sacred to the Puutu Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) traditional owners and occupied for 46,000 years at least, to extend iron ore mining. "?It?s one of the most sacred sites in the Pilbara region ? we wanted to have that area protected,? PKKP director Burchell Hayes. The traditional owners tried desperately to stop the blast once they became aware it was impending. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there was a misunderstanding" but and, after much outrage, the three members of the executive had their multi million dollar bonuses reduced. It has subsequently emerged that Rio Tinto had contracted lawyers to oppose any injunctions before the crime was committed. The chief executive and two of his underlings have resigned. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The crime was legal and was made possible by State Government laws which are stacked in favour of miners. Assessments of the cultural and environmental significance are made with little investigation and remain in place for decades and have rarely been successfully be challenged. No permission to destroy heritage sites in WA has been refused (and there have been 463 applications).https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is not as if we didn?t know that this would happen. Norway's pension fund divested their holdings in Rio Tinto in 2008: "Exclusion of a company from the Fund reflects our unwillingness to run an unacceptable risk of contributing to grossly unethical conduct. The Council on Ethics has concluded that Rio Tinto is directly involved, through its participation in the Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the severe environmental damage caused by that mining operation." >>>>>>>> ??Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of Finance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A useful background briefing of indigenous rights in Australia: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin Packer" on behalf of mpacker@cantab.net > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to?? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for the named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise the sender by return email or telephone. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments are error or virus free. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> > > Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for the named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise the sender by return email or telephone. > > Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments are error or virus free. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200915/e1dee190/attachment.html From robsub@ariadne.org.uk Wed Sep 16 01:14:10 2020 From: robsub@ariadne.org.uk (robsub@ariadne.org.uk) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 09:14:10 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> Message-ID: <14bdc226-b4d9-0469-cc17-9a44abae69cd@ariadne.org.uk> Andy "in France and the UK climate change denial is more associated with the Left than the Right" I don't know about France, but in the UK climate change denial is definitely a right wing thing. It now goes with Brexit. There are a lot of climate deniers who habitually vote Labour but I doubt that you could call many of them "left wing". There is a heavily conservative lump of Labour votes in what you might call the traditional working classes, as demonstrated by the ease with which in Dec 2019 the so called red wall of northern industrial (or ex-industrial) Parliamentary seats became blue overnight. Much of this is to do with the fact that they have been consistently lied to for forty years by the right wing press, which a majority of them always read, despite being Labour voters. Margaret Thatcher truly unleashed a demon for which we are now paying the price. But both of those facts are a topic for another day. Rob On 16/09/2020 01:50, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Thanks David. I think the reason that Vygotsky insisted on a General > Psychology and specifically *not* a "Marxist" Psychology is indeed the > same reason that I told Anthony that I think "Leftism" is not a > helpful way to come to an understanding of Marxism. Our aim (this "we" > constituted by our collaboration) is human emancipation. We need > concepts which are *true*, irrespective of whether they are > categorised as Left or Right. For example, in France and the UK > climate change denial is more associated with the Left than the Right, > while in Oz and the US climate change denial is associated with the > Right. Political partisanship is no way to Science. Vygotsky wanted a > Science, because his goal is human emancipation. Insofar as a > Psychology defined itself as furthering *any *current of ideology, > then it cannot be science. And BTW, that applies equally to Deborin or > Bukharin. > > It remains the case though, in the words of the US commentator Seth > Myers I think, that "reality has a liberal bias." > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 16/09/2020 7:10 am, David Kellogg wrote: >> Anthony often wonders whether there is any necessary connection >> between Marxism and what he calls "leftism". Andy even has a video >> where he suggests that making that connection is not a "helpful" way >> of thinking about Marxist philosophy. >> >> I get?it. When we read "The HIstorical Sense of the Crisis in >> Psychology" we hear Vygotsky asking his?closest?friends and >> collaborators NOT to use the term Marxism when referring to their >> work,?not only because he doesn't want it associated with political >> pietism but also because he doesn't think that the current method of >> "copy and paste" quotes from Marx and Engels is yielding anything >> like a real Marxist psychology. (Interestingly, the late Lucien Seve >> believed that this criticism was directed at Deborin, but Andy thinks >> it is directed against mechanists like Bukharin). >> >> But to?me Anthony's question answers itself. What he calls "leftism" >> is really just what Andy calls "world perezhivanie", it is >> sociogenesis made into conscious awareness. That is, it is human >> societies confronted by other?societies and trying to change >> themselves rather than be changed. When they do this, even if they do >> not recognize any "final, complete, ideal form" (and Vygotsky says no >> such recognition is possible in Chapter Four of Foundations of >> Pedology) they become aware that the principles of blind adaptation >> themselves can be changed (as animals do) into those of design. >> Contrary to individuals adapting to the environment, societies >> that?look after the?old, the young, and the sick are made stronger >> and better, because the whole course of development is deliberate and >> indirect adaptation rather than blind and direct.? ? ?. >> >> I think, Martin, that both Lenin and Trotsky believed strongly in the >> evitability of capitalism, and both considered it to be the key >> question of their time, both in the Russian and in the incipient >> Chinese revolution. They did come up with different solutions, and >> you are right to say that Lenin's solution lent itself much more >> easily to Stalin's believe in the five universal stages of human >> society (primitive communism, slavery, feudalism, capitalism and >> socialism). Lenin believed that the capitalist development of the >> Russian empire (which of course included many non-capitalist >> societies) can and should be stopped by a "democratic dictatorship of >> the proletariat and the peasantry", which would bring in capitalism >> but exercise dictatorship over the capitalists themselves, ensuring >> that the democratic tasks of the revolution (ensuring franchise to >> the disenfranchised, including land to the tillers) were carried out >> in a way that would enable a transition to socialism (withering away >> the state, common ownership of land). Trotsky believed that no >> capitalist stage would be necessary, because there would be >> revolutions in Germany, England, France, and above all the USA,?and >> the world organization of production would allow non-capitalist >> societies to develop from primitive communism to true communism. >> >> When Joseph Glick wrote his "Prologue" to Volume Four of the >> (English) Vygotsky Collected Works, he argued that one reason why >> Vygotsky was so important to educators in the post-Piaget era was >> that he offered a way of doing without universal Piagetian stages. We >> now know, from the pedological work, that Vygotsky had his own stages >> in mind. But we still don't know if he saw the stages as evitable the >> way that Lenin did or whether he believed, as did Trotsky, in >> permanent revolution. >> (By the way, Renee Van der Veer has now published a translation of >> "Pedology of School Age"--in English!) >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D6WDK3H/ref=pe_385040_118058080_TE_M1DP__;!!Mih3wA!V4OHmQr9ahMNqIycw5fjBfxI35c52dcqYFIr62ZzaMc24Kxmwajko1-mzahuWHV22eSCZQ$ >> >> >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: >> Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between >> Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky >> >> Some free e-prints today available at: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!V4OHmQr9ahMNqIycw5fjBfxI35c52dcqYFIr62ZzaMc24Kxmwajko1-mzahuWHW5XOw3Fg$ >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >> Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!V4OHmQr9ahMNqIycw5fjBfxI35c52dcqYFIr62ZzaMc24Kxmwajko1-mzahuWHWl3F7Vjg$ >> >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 1:00 AM Martin Packer > > wrote: >> >>> capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no >>> universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). >> >> This happens to be something I?ve been thinking about recently ? >> the ?evitability? (avoidability, as opposed to inevitability) of >> capitalism. I?ve been reading some of the work of Douglass North, >> who won a Nobel prize in economics in 1993 for his analysis of >> the role that institutions have played in economic ?development,? >> He thought ?he was describing how the West achieved ?progress? >> and has been able to ?evolve? further than other regions, but one >> can read his work as describing alternative pathways in the >> formation of economic systems, which in the West has led to an >> imbalance in which profit and growth have become the only >> measures of societal and individual achievement. >> >> A neat illustration: the NY Times has been publishing reflections >> upon an article written 50 years ago by Milton Friedman titled >> "The Social Responsibility Of Business Is to?Increase Its >> Profits." Friedman wrote: >> >> WHEN I hear businessmen speak eloquently about the >> ?social?responsibilities of business in a?free?enterprise >> system,? I am reminded?of the wonderful line about the >> Frenchman who discovered?at, the age of?70 that he had been >> speaking prose all his life. The businessmen?believe that >> they?are defending free enterprise when they declaim >> that?business is not concerned ?merely? with profit?but also >> with promoting?desirable ?social? ends; that business has a >> ?social conscience? and?takes?seriously its responsibilities >> for providing employment,?eliminating discrimination, >> avoiding pollution?and whatever else may be?the catchwords of >> the contemporary crop of reformers. In fact they?are?or would >> be if they or any one else took them seriously? >> preaching?pure and unadulterated?socialism. Businessmen who >> talk this way are?unwitting puppets of the intellectual >> forces that have?been undermining?the basis of a free society >> these past decades. >> >> >> It will be hard to find a better statement of the ideology that >> has got us all into the current mess. >> >> On the left, was it with Lenin that capitalism became viewed as a >> necessary prerequisite to socialism? For example, as I understand >> it after the revolution in Mexico, 1910-1920, the PRI (Partido >> Revolucionario Institucional) worked hard to turn the indigenous >> peoples into a proletariat. This was the only way they could >> imagine societal progress: quickly moving the country into >> capitalism so as to achieve socialism. I conclude that it was not >> only Stalin who taught this. >> >> Martin >> >> >>> On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:57 PM, David Kellogg >> > wrote: >>> >>> If you click on the link that Henry, and before him John, >>> offered, you get the pro-natural-capital side of a debate in the >>> pages of the Guardian on whether or not "nature" can be valued >>> as capital and whether it is good or bad for nature for humans >>> to do this. I think that in CHAT, we are indebted to Marx for >>> many things, but surely one debt we would do well not to disavow >>> is Marx's insistence (in Critique of the Gotha programme and >>> elsewhere) that nature is NOT capital: on the contrary, humans >>> and all of their various property forms from communism to >>> capitalism must be considered peculiar forms of nature. This is >>> a discussion that CHAT needs to have if we are going to retain >>> the AT in CHAT. I disagree with Peter Jones on many many things, >>> but one thing I heartily agree with him on is the idea that >>> Leontiev brings an intensely anti-naturalistic view of activity >>> into activity theory--humans acting as subjects on passive >>> environments to produce beneficial outcomes. >>> >>> Marx had a better idea: in the Ethnological Notebooks, he shows >>> us that capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is >>> no universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). Western >>> capitalism, with its idea of nature as capital, is really? just >>> one extreme variant. In Marx's columns on the Sepoy rebellion >>> and the Taiping rebellion, he even posits an "Asiantic mode of >>> production" that had virtually nothing to do with feudalism. So >>> to say that South Korea and Japan are equally capitalist >>> societies is really a little like saying that China and the USSR >>> were equally non-capitalist. Deus Sive Natura: and neither one >>> is capital. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: >>> Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between >>> Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky >>> >>> Some free e-prints today available at: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!V4OHmQr9ahMNqIycw5fjBfxI35c52dcqYFIr62ZzaMc24Kxmwajko1-mzahuWHW5XOw3Fg$ >>> >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's >>> Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!V4OHmQr9ahMNqIycw5fjBfxI35c52dcqYFIr62ZzaMc24Kxmwajko1-mzahuWHWl3F7Vjg$ >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 3:43 AM HENRY SHONERD >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Martin, John and Andy >>> Thanks to Martin for kicking off this topic and John and >>> Andy for following up. I has amazed me to find, for me, how >>> the RTZ narrative resonates with both Navajo and Pueblo >>> narratives here in New Mexico. How evil RTZ ?is, but how >>> wonderful the courage of our native peoples! >>> >>> Chaco Canyon IS a tourist destination here in New Mexico. >>> Though there has been no destruction of the site that, based >>> on Native American narratives and the efforts of >>> archeologists, is architecturally spectacular evidence of >>> the pre-Colombian culture from which the present-day Pueblos >>> come. What parallels RTZ activities on aboriginal lands in >>> Australia is the drilling for gas and oil on Navajo lands >>> surrounding Chaco and a rush to buy more rights while Trump >>> is in power. There have been protests, though nothing as >>> intense and effective as the Standing Rock protests to >>> protect water on native lands to our north and east from gas >>> and oil predation (the pipeline). Standing Rock was LED by >>> Native Americans, many from the Navajo, Apache and Pueblo >>> near me. >>> >>> I just saw yesterday a 30-year-old film that is one of the >>> offerings of the Vision Maker Film Festival: Clear Cut. I >>> recommend it, or at least a look at the wiki article about >>> it. It couldn?t be more timely. It?s messy, where contention >>> between environmental and logging interests and division >>> WITHIN the native community (traditon vs. jobs) leave one >>> stunned. What redeems a messy struggle is exactly what Andy >>> says: The aboriginal people of the world do it for us! In >>> the same way, when ?our? Pueblos put on feasts and invite us >>> in to witness their dances, they do it for us. Perhaps you >>> recall the movie ?Koyaniskaatsi?, la Hopi word that has been >>> translated as "life out of balance". (The Hopis are a >>> Puebloan people, descendants of the Chacoan culture. The >>> Navajos and Apaches arrived here about the same time as the >>> European colonizers, based on linguistic and genetic >>> evidence.) If you live in New Mexico, you are around Pueblo >>> people. If you are really lucky, and many of us are, you >>> become friends with them and they invite you to share their >>> food at the feasts! How generous is this? They do it for us. >>> >>> The RTZ narrative is not only destructive to cultural >>> capital, it is implicated in natural capital >>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/nov/23/monbiot-natural-capital-wrong-conservation__;!!Mih3wA!V4OHmQr9ahMNqIycw5fjBfxI35c52dcqYFIr62ZzaMc24Kxmwajko1-mzahuWHUFJOuJUA$ >>> ) >>> via climate change. (The link here, to a Guardian article is >>> available through the first link in John?s post). Here again >>> we should look to our native peoples. There is credible >>> research that concludes the climate change lengthens fire >>> seasons but wrong-headed environmental policies make the >>> fires more intense, hence less controllable. Add to this the >>> incursion of housing into forested areas and the destruction >>> is a doubly self-inflicted wound. And hold on for this one >>> for the best CHAT connection: Native peoples of this >>> continent used to set controlled burns to remove the kind of >>> unburnt fuel to avoid such conflagrations. Today some of >>> ?the best-trained and most effective firefighters in this >>> country are Native Americans. Cultural capital. They do it >>> for us, and their example from the past can serve us now. >>> Cultural capital. >>> >>> I believe I have crowed before about New Mexico and our >>> Native Americans. Australia has crowing rights as well. And, >>> for standing proud, there?s nothing like an anthem. The best >>> anthem music I have EVER heard comes from Australia: Yothu >>> Yindi What a great project that brings together white people >>> and people of color. What great creative collaboration. >>> Andy, I am telling you again, project is a great unit of >>> analysis, precisely because it brings together cognition and >>> affect, because it embodies active orientation. In my >>> country, it is pretty well agreed that the natives got >>> screwed, across the political divide. Black Lives Matter is >>> more complex, but there is hope that the question of race is >>> now where LGBTQ issues were at the time of the AIDS crisis, >>> in the last century. Back then we could never have guessed >>> we would be where we are with non-gender-conforming >>> acceptance now. Just saying, as much for myself as for >>> anybody else listening. >>> >>> La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n >>> Henry >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Er. " *NO *physical markers" >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> On 14/09/2020 11:43 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list before noticing >>>>> that John had already responded, and John is much better >>>>> informed than me about these matters, and yet I spoke as >>>>> if he didn't exist. My apologies. >>>>> >>>>> These caves are nothing for tourism. They are too remote >>>>> and there are others more accessible. I believe the caves >>>>> have been under Native Title as a result of a bitter >>>>> struggle to protect them by the local people in the 1990s. >>>>> This means that RTZ had to get permission from the PKK >>>>> people. The lawyers swindled them. >>>>> >>>>> In my view, all these sites which are not only part of >>>>> Aboriginal heritage (there are places which have *NO >>>>> *physical markers of their status but are sacred to the >>>>> local people) but self-evidently of *world* heritage. But >>>>> I don't think these caves were registered as World >>>>> Heritage. I have not heard the discussion about this >>>>> (John?). No-one wants to say this, I think, because it >>>>> implies that Indigenous values are somehow less important >>>>> than human values. For example, under the law as it stands >>>>> the PKK Land Council would have a right to let RTZ destroy >>>>> the caves and maybe a million dollars or two in the bank >>>>> or a new school, would be enough. This is not a >>>>> hypothetical. One of the reasons that the Indigenous >>>>> people remain impoverished even where they have Native >>>>> Title over large areas of land, is that they live, after >>>>> all, in a capitalist country and Native title cannot be >>>>> sold. It is not a commodity. Therefore it is not a form of >>>>> wealth. You can't get a mortgage to build a house on land >>>>> you own by Native title.? You can't sell a block to a >>>>> farmer so you can buy agricultural equipment to farm >>>>> another block. In short, by blocking the Indigenous people >>>>> from monetising their land rights we trap them in poverty. >>>>> In general, the indigenous people are happy to forgo >>>>> tourist income to protect their sacred sites (e.g. Uluru) >>>>> and I don't doubt for an instant, that if they'd been >>>>> properly consulted they never would have agreed to the >>>>> destruction of the caves. Obviously. But they do have to >>>>> have rights to trade with their land. But also the world >>>>> needs to keep absolutely unique archaeological sites >>>>> pristine and the local people should be supported by >>>>> governments to do the work of protecting them on *our* >>>>> behalf. Recognising the great cost entailed. >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> >>>>> Home Page >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>>>>> Thanks, John and Andy, >>>>>> >>>>>> I suppose that I am naive, for this event astonishes me >>>>>> in so many different ways. I would have assumed that the >>>>>> land title or native title granted to indigenous peoples >>>>>> over some territory in Australia would have included >>>>>> the?Juuken Gorge caves. I would have assumed that these >>>>>> caves were a national cultural heritage site, or even a >>>>>> world cultural heritage site. I would have assumed that >>>>>> indigenous rights would have more importance to the >>>>>> Australian government, and indeed to the Australian >>>>>> people. I would have assumed that, while mining is >>>>>> apparently of great economic importance to the country, >>>>>> the government would have considered the economic value >>>>>> of this site for tourism, or simply the impact that >>>>>> destroying the caves would have on Australia?s >>>>>> reputation. And while I suppose that unbridled >>>>>> rapaciousness on the part of an international mining >>>>>> company is hardly a surprise, I would have thought that >>>>>> Rio Tinto would also have considered the negative >>>>>> publicity that their actions would create. >>>>>> >>>>>> How can we express our displeasure to the various parties >>>>>> involved? Are there petitions that one can sign? Or >>>>>> Twitter accounts to which one can tweet? >>>>>> >>>>>> I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO >>>>>> Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if his bonus this year would have >>>>>> been A$4.9 million. Perhaps he could donate a few years >>>>>> of his salary to establish a foundation that could work >>>>>> for indigenous peoples? rights. >>>>>> >>>>>> sadly >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps Clark >>>>>>> >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves (which I >>>>>>> assume you are referring to) is a much more villainous >>>>>>> act than was originally portrayed and reflects the venal >>>>>>> racism not only of the company but also of the State >>>>>>> Government. For those not familiar with this shocking >>>>>>> crime, the $80b Anglo Australian mining company which on >>>>>>> Sunday 24th of May blew up a site sacred to the Puutu >>>>>>> Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) traditional owners and >>>>>>> occupied for 46,000 years at least, to extend iron ore >>>>>>> mining. "?It?s one of the most sacred sites in the >>>>>>> Pilbara region ? we wanted to have that area protected,? >>>>>>> PKKP director Burchell Hayes. The traditional owners >>>>>>> tried desperately to stop the blast once they became >>>>>>> aware it was impending. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there was a >>>>>>> misunderstanding" but and, after much outrage, the three >>>>>>> members of the executive had their multi million dollar >>>>>>> bonuses reduced. It has subsequently emerged that Rio >>>>>>> Tinto had contracted lawyers to oppose any injunctions >>>>>>> before the crime was committed. The chief executive and >>>>>>> two of his underlings have resigned. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The crime was legal and was made possible by State >>>>>>> Government laws which are stacked in favour of miners. >>>>>>> Assessments of the cultural and environmental >>>>>>> significance are made with little investigation and >>>>>>> remain in place for decades and have rarely been >>>>>>> successfully be challenged. No permission to destroy >>>>>>> heritage sites in WA has been refused (and there have >>>>>>> been 463 applications). >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is not as if we didn?t know that this would happen. >>>>>>> Norway's pension fund divested their holdings in Rio >>>>>>> Tinto in 2008: "Exclusion of a company from the Fund >>>>>>> reflects our unwillingness to run an unacceptable risk >>>>>>> of contributing to grossly unethical conduct. The >>>>>>> Council on Ethics has concluded that Rio Tinto is >>>>>>> directly involved, through its participation in the >>>>>>> Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the severe environmental >>>>>>> damage caused by that mining operation." >>>>>>> ?????Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of Finance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A useful background briefing of indigenous rights in >>>>>>> Australia: >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ?On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>> on behalf of >>>>>>> Martin Packer" >>>>>> on behalf of >>>>>>> mpacker@cantab.net > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ???Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to?? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ???Martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Important Notice: The contents of this email are >>>>>>> intended solely for the named addressee and are >>>>>>> confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or >>>>>>> storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you >>>>>>> have received this email in error, please delete it and >>>>>>> any attachments immediately and advise the sender by >>>>>>> return email or telephone. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Deakin University does not warrant that this email and >>>>>>> any attachments are error or virus free. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200916/3da7ba9e/attachment.html From robsub@ariadne.org.uk Wed Sep 16 01:18:34 2020 From: robsub@ariadne.org.uk (robsub@ariadne.org.uk) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 09:18:34 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> Message-ID: <6fb54124-b5ef-a061-c570-ecbbb075ce7d@ariadne.org.uk> Slightly off topic, but mental maps have always fascinated me. I wonder what Marx meant by "western" Europe. Where was the boundary then between "western" and "eastern" Europe? Was it just in Marx's mental map or a common mental map? Rob On 16/09/2020 01:33, Andy Blunden wrote: > > This letter: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1881/letters/81_03_08.htm__;!!Mih3wA!QibN3pMD6kHltZpaJGKtcksvv0LeyNnyYP0eU7NdP6PLKItwU1Ebt6Dy5i3HlhSI9HkaYw$ > > is one occasion when Marx makes it clear that he makes no claim for > the inevitability of a capitalist stage of social development, only > that this was what was actually the case in Europe in his time. Note > that Marx's correspondence with Vera Zasulich was published in Russia > in 1924, so Vygotsky would have been aware of this. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 16/09/2020 1:58 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>> capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no universal >>> stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). >> >> This happens to be something I?ve been thinking about recently ? the >> ?evitability? (avoidability, as opposed to inevitability) of >> capitalism. I?ve been reading some of the work of Douglass North, who >> won a Nobel prize in economics in 1993 for his analysis of the role >> that institutions have played in economic ?development,? He thought >> ?he was describing how the West achieved ?progress? and has been able >> to ?evolve? further than other regions, but one can read his work as >> describing alternative pathways in the formation of economic systems, >> which in the West has led to an imbalance in which profit and growth >> have become the only measures of societal and individual achievement. >> >> A neat illustration: the NY Times has been publishing reflections >> upon an article written 50 years ago by Milton Friedman titled "The >> Social Responsibility Of Business Is to?Increase Its Profits." >> Friedman wrote: >> >> WHEN I hear businessmen speak eloquently about the >> ?social?responsibilities of business in a?free?enterprise >> system,? I am reminded?of the wonderful line about the Frenchman >> who discovered?at, the age of?70 that he had been speaking prose >> all his life. The businessmen?believe that they?are defending >> free enterprise when they declaim that?business is not concerned >> ?merely? with profit?but also with promoting?desirable ?social? >> ends; that business has a ?social conscience? and?takes?seriously >> its responsibilities for providing employment,?eliminating >> discrimination, avoiding pollution?and whatever else may be?the >> catchwords of the contemporary crop of reformers. In fact >> they?are?or would be if they or any one else took them seriously? >> preaching?pure and unadulterated?socialism. Businessmen who talk >> this way are?unwitting puppets of the intellectual forces that >> have?been undermining?the basis of a free society these past decades. >> >> >> It will be hard to find a better statement of the ideology that has >> got us all into the current mess. >> >> On the left, was it with Lenin that capitalism became viewed as a >> necessary prerequisite to socialism? For example, as I understand it >> after the revolution in Mexico, 1910-1920, the PRI (Partido >> Revolucionario Institucional) worked hard to turn the indigenous >> peoples into a proletariat. This was the only way they could imagine >> societal progress: quickly moving the country into capitalism so as >> to achieve socialism. I conclude that it was not only Stalin who >> taught this. >> >> Martin >> >> >>> On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:57 PM, David Kellogg >> > wrote: >>> >>> If you click on the link that Henry, and before him John, offered, >>> you get the pro-natural-capital side of a debate in the pages of the >>> Guardian on whether or not "nature" can be valued as capital and >>> whether it is good or bad for nature for humans to do this. I think >>> that in CHAT, we are indebted to Marx for many things, but surely >>> one debt we would do well not to disavow is Marx's insistence (in >>> Critique of the Gotha programme and elsewhere) that nature is NOT >>> capital: on the contrary, humans and all of their various property >>> forms from communism to capitalism must be considered peculiar forms >>> of nature. This is a discussion that CHAT needs to have if we are >>> going to retain the AT in CHAT. I disagree with Peter Jones on many >>> many things, but one thing I heartily agree with him on is the idea >>> that Leontiev brings an intensely anti-naturalistic view of activity >>> into activity theory--humans acting as subjects on passive >>> environments to produce beneficial outcomes. >>> >>> Marx had a better idea: in the Ethnological Notebooks, he shows us >>> that capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no >>> universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). Western >>> capitalism, with its idea of nature as capital, is really? just one >>> extreme variant. In Marx's columns on the Sepoy rebellion and the >>> Taiping rebellion, he even posits an "Asiantic mode of production" >>> that had virtually nothing to do with feudalism. So to say that >>> South Korea and Japan are equally capitalist societies is really a >>> little like saying that China and the USSR were equally >>> non-capitalist. Deus Sive Natura: and neither one is capital. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: >>> Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between >>> Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky >>> >>> Some free e-prints today available at: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!QibN3pMD6kHltZpaJGKtcksvv0LeyNnyYP0eU7NdP6PLKItwU1Ebt6Dy5i3HlhRShCkjVg$ >>> >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QibN3pMD6kHltZpaJGKtcksvv0LeyNnyYP0eU7NdP6PLKItwU1Ebt6Dy5i3HlhQhPRBVQw$ >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 3:43 AM HENRY SHONERD >> > wrote: >>> >>> Martin, John and Andy >>> Thanks to Martin for kicking off this topic and John and Andy >>> for following up. I has amazed me to find, for me, how the RTZ >>> narrative resonates with both Navajo and Pueblo narratives here >>> in New Mexico. How evil RTZ ?is, but how wonderful the courage >>> of our native peoples! >>> >>> Chaco Canyon IS a tourist destination here in New Mexico. Though >>> there has been no destruction of the site that, based on Native >>> American narratives and the efforts of archeologists, is >>> architecturally spectacular evidence of the pre-Colombian >>> culture from which the present-day Pueblos come. What parallels >>> RTZ activities on aboriginal lands in Australia is the drilling >>> for gas and oil on Navajo lands surrounding Chaco and a rush to >>> buy more rights while Trump is in power. There have been >>> protests, though nothing as intense and effective as the >>> Standing Rock protests to protect water on native lands to our >>> north and east from gas and oil predation (the pipeline). >>> Standing Rock was LED by Native Americans, many from the Navajo, >>> Apache and Pueblo near me. >>> >>> I just saw yesterday a 30-year-old film that is one of the >>> offerings of the Vision Maker Film Festival: Clear Cut. I >>> recommend it, or at least a look at the wiki article about it. >>> It couldn?t be more timely. It?s messy, where contention between >>> environmental and logging interests and division WITHIN the >>> native community (traditon vs. jobs) leave one stunned. What >>> redeems a messy struggle is exactly what Andy says: The >>> aboriginal people of the world do it for us! In the same way, >>> when ?our? Pueblos put on feasts and invite us in to witness >>> their dances, they do it for us. Perhaps you recall the movie >>> ?Koyaniskaatsi?, la Hopi word that has been translated as "life >>> out of balance". (The Hopis are a Puebloan people, descendants >>> of the Chacoan culture. The Navajos and Apaches arrived here >>> about the same time as the European colonizers, based on >>> linguistic and genetic evidence.) If you live in New Mexico, you >>> are around Pueblo people. If you are really lucky, and many of >>> us are, you become friends with them and they invite you to >>> share their food at the feasts! How generous is this? They do it >>> for us. >>> >>> The RTZ narrative is not only destructive to cultural capital, >>> it is implicated in natural capital >>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/nov/23/monbiot-natural-capital-wrong-conservation__;!!Mih3wA!QibN3pMD6kHltZpaJGKtcksvv0LeyNnyYP0eU7NdP6PLKItwU1Ebt6Dy5i3HlhQBfHKCMQ$ >>> ) >>> via climate change. (The link here, to a Guardian article is >>> available through the first link in John?s post). Here again we >>> should look to our native peoples. There is credible research >>> that concludes the climate change lengthens fire seasons but >>> wrong-headed environmental policies make the fires more intense, >>> hence less controllable. Add to this the incursion of housing >>> into forested areas and the destruction is a doubly >>> self-inflicted wound. And hold on for this one for the best CHAT >>> connection: Native peoples of this continent used to set >>> controlled burns to remove the kind of unburnt fuel to avoid >>> such conflagrations. Today some of ?the best-trained and most >>> effective firefighters in this country are Native Americans. >>> Cultural capital. They do it for us, and their example from the >>> past can serve us now. Cultural capital. >>> >>> I believe I have crowed before about New Mexico and our Native >>> Americans. Australia has crowing rights as well. And, for >>> standing proud, there?s nothing like an anthem. The best anthem >>> music I have EVER heard comes from Australia: Yothu Yindi What a >>> great project that brings together white people and people of >>> color. What great creative collaboration. Andy, I am telling you >>> again, project is a great unit of analysis, precisely because it >>> brings together cognition and affect, because it embodies active >>> orientation. In my country, it is pretty well agreed that the >>> natives got screwed, across the political divide. Black Lives >>> Matter is more complex, but there is hope that the question of >>> race is now where LGBTQ issues were at the time of the AIDS >>> crisis, in the last century. Back then we could never have >>> guessed we would be where we are with non-gender-conforming >>> acceptance now. Just saying, as much for myself as for anybody >>> else listening. >>> >>> La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n >>> Henry >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Er. " *NO *physical markers" >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> On 14/09/2020 11:43 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list before noticing >>>>> that John had already responded, and John is much better >>>>> informed than me about these matters, and yet I spoke as if he >>>>> didn't exist. My apologies. >>>>> >>>>> These caves are nothing for tourism. They are too remote and >>>>> there are others more accessible. I believe the caves have >>>>> been under Native Title as a result of a bitter struggle to >>>>> protect them by the local people in the 1990s. This means that >>>>> RTZ had to get permission from the PKK people. The lawyers >>>>> swindled them. >>>>> >>>>> In my view, all these sites which are not only part of >>>>> Aboriginal heritage (there are places which have *NO *physical >>>>> markers of their status but are sacred to the local people) >>>>> but self-evidently of *world* heritage. But I don't think >>>>> these caves were registered as World Heritage. I have not >>>>> heard the discussion about this (John?). No-one wants to say >>>>> this, I think, because it implies that Indigenous values are >>>>> somehow less important than human values. For example, under >>>>> the law as it stands the PKK Land Council would have a right >>>>> to let RTZ destroy the caves and maybe a million dollars or >>>>> two in the bank or a new school, would be enough. This is not >>>>> a hypothetical. One of the reasons that the Indigenous people >>>>> remain impoverished even where they have Native Title over >>>>> large areas of land, is that they live, after all, in a >>>>> capitalist country and Native title cannot be sold. It is not >>>>> a commodity. Therefore it is not a form of wealth. You can't >>>>> get a mortgage to build a house on land you own by Native >>>>> title.? You can't sell a block to a farmer so you can buy >>>>> agricultural equipment to farm another block. In short, by >>>>> blocking the Indigenous people from monetising their land >>>>> rights we trap them in poverty. In general, the indigenous >>>>> people are happy to forgo tourist income to protect their >>>>> sacred sites (e.g. Uluru) and I don't doubt for an instant, >>>>> that if they'd been properly consulted they never would have >>>>> agreed to the destruction of the caves. Obviously. But they do >>>>> have to have rights to trade with their land. But also the >>>>> world needs to keep absolutely unique archaeological sites >>>>> pristine and the local people should be supported by >>>>> governments to do the work of protecting them on *our* behalf. >>>>> Recognising the great cost entailed. >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> >>>>> Home Page >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>>>>> Thanks, John and Andy, >>>>>> >>>>>> I suppose that I am naive, for this event astonishes me in so >>>>>> many different ways. I would have assumed that the land title >>>>>> or native title granted to indigenous peoples over some >>>>>> territory in Australia would have included the?Juuken Gorge >>>>>> caves. I would have assumed that these caves were a national >>>>>> cultural heritage site, or even a world cultural heritage >>>>>> site. I would have assumed that indigenous rights would have >>>>>> more importance to the Australian government, and indeed to >>>>>> the Australian people. I would have assumed that, while >>>>>> mining is apparently of great economic importance to the >>>>>> country, the government would have considered the economic >>>>>> value of this site for tourism, or simply the impact that >>>>>> destroying the caves would have on Australia?s reputation. >>>>>> And while I suppose that unbridled rapaciousness on the part >>>>>> of an international mining company is hardly a surprise, I >>>>>> would have thought that Rio Tinto would also have considered >>>>>> the negative publicity that their actions would create. >>>>>> >>>>>> How can we express our displeasure to the various parties >>>>>> involved? Are there petitions that one can sign? Or Twitter >>>>>> accounts to which one can tweet? >>>>>> >>>>>> I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO Jean-Sebastien >>>>>> Jacques, if his bonus this year would have been A$4.9 >>>>>> million. Perhaps he could donate a few years of his salary to >>>>>> establish a foundation that could work for indigenous >>>>>> peoples? rights. >>>>>> >>>>>> sadly >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps Clark >>>>>>> >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves (which I assume >>>>>>> you are referring to) is a much more villainous act than was >>>>>>> originally portrayed and reflects the venal racism not only >>>>>>> of the company but also of the State Government. For those >>>>>>> not familiar with this shocking crime, the $80b Anglo >>>>>>> Australian mining company which on Sunday 24th of May blew >>>>>>> up a site sacred to the Puutu Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura >>>>>>> (PKKP) traditional owners and occupied for 46,000 years at >>>>>>> least, to extend iron ore mining. "?It?s one of the most >>>>>>> sacred sites in the Pilbara region ? we wanted to have that >>>>>>> area protected,? PKKP director Burchell Hayes. The >>>>>>> traditional owners tried desperately to stop the blast once >>>>>>> they became aware it was impending. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there was a >>>>>>> misunderstanding" but and, after much outrage, the three >>>>>>> members of the executive had their multi million dollar >>>>>>> bonuses reduced. It has subsequently emerged that Rio Tinto >>>>>>> had contracted lawyers to oppose any injunctions before the >>>>>>> crime was committed. The chief executive and two of his >>>>>>> underlings have resigned. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The crime was legal and was made possible by State >>>>>>> Government laws which are stacked in favour of miners. >>>>>>> Assessments of the cultural and environmental significance >>>>>>> are made with little investigation and remain in place for >>>>>>> decades and have rarely been successfully be challenged. No >>>>>>> permission to destroy heritage sites in WA has been refused >>>>>>> (and there have been 463 applications). >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is not as if we didn?t know that this would happen. >>>>>>> Norway's pension fund divested their holdings in Rio Tinto >>>>>>> in 2008: "Exclusion of a company from the Fund reflects our >>>>>>> unwillingness to run an unacceptable risk of contributing to >>>>>>> grossly unethical conduct. The Council on Ethics has >>>>>>> concluded that Rio Tinto is directly involved, through its >>>>>>> participation in the Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the >>>>>>> severe environmental damage caused by that mining operation." >>>>>>> ?????Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of Finance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A useful background briefing of indigenous rights in >>>>>>> Australia: >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ?On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>> on behalf of Martin >>>>>>> Packer" >>>>>> on behalf of >>>>>>> mpacker@cantab.net > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ???Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to?? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ???Martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended >>>>>>> solely for the named addressee and are confidential; any >>>>>>> unauthorised use, reproduction or storage of the contents is >>>>>>> expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in >>>>>>> error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and >>>>>>> advise the sender by return email or telephone. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any >>>>>>> attachments are error or virus free. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200916/a475e8b9/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Sep 16 01:55:31 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 17:55:31 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: <6fb54124-b5ef-a061-c570-ecbbb075ce7d@ariadne.org.uk> References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> <6fb54124-b5ef-a061-c570-ecbbb075ce7d@ariadne.org.uk> Message-ID: Rob-- Mental maps fascinate me too. I think that in Marx's time the distinction was a religious one: the areas that belonged to the Eastern Roman Empire, and then Byzantium, and then constituted the religious domain of the Orthodox Church constituted Eastern Europe, except Poland which although Catholic was part of the Russian empire (and spoke a Slavic language). Of course, the distinction between Southern Europe and Northern Europe was ALSO a religious one--again, except for Poland. I wonder what it is about Poland!. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky Some free e-prints today available at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!RPhZDSTWklPFNNVX5ZygsIrky2E8UdGSQd69tXmBl7roVIEtfrXOHHoX1cacJ5Amyt9hEA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RPhZDSTWklPFNNVX5ZygsIrky2E8UdGSQd69tXmBl7roVIEtfrXOHHoX1cacJ5A1TJkZFw$ On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 5:20 PM robsub@ariadne.org.uk wrote: > Slightly off topic, but mental maps have always fascinated me. I wonder > what Marx meant by "western" Europe. Where was the boundary then between > "western" and "eastern" Europe? Was it just in Marx's mental map or a > common mental map? > > Rob > > On 16/09/2020 01:33, Andy Blunden wrote: > > This letter: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1881/letters/81_03_08.htm__;!!Mih3wA!RPhZDSTWklPFNNVX5ZygsIrky2E8UdGSQd69tXmBl7roVIEtfrXOHHoX1cacJ5Dh4AMjWg$ > > is one occasion when Marx makes it clear that he makes no claim for the > inevitability of a capitalist stage of social development, only that this > was what was actually the case in Europe in his time. Note that Marx's > correspondence with Vera Zasulich was published in Russia in 1924, so > Vygotsky would have been aware of this. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 16/09/2020 1:58 am, Martin Packer wrote: > > capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no universal stage > (contrary to what Stalin taught). > > > This happens to be something I?ve been thinking about recently ? the > ?evitability? (avoidability, as opposed to inevitability) of capitalism. > I?ve been reading some of the work of Douglass North, who won a Nobel prize > in economics in 1993 for his analysis of the role that institutions have > played in economic ?development,? He thought he was describing how the > West achieved ?progress? and has been able to ?evolve? further than other > regions, but one can read his work as describing alternative pathways in > the formation of economic systems, which in the West has led to an > imbalance in which profit and growth have become the only measures of > societal and individual achievement. > > A neat illustration: the NY Times has been publishing reflections upon an > article written 50 years ago by Milton Friedman titled "The Social > Responsibility Of Business Is to Increase Its Profits." Friedman wrote: > > WHEN I hear businessmen speak eloquently about the > ?social responsibilities of business in a free?enterprise system,? I am > reminded of the wonderful line about the Frenchman who discovered at, the > age of 70 that he had been speaking prose all his life. The > businessmen believe that they are defending free enterprise when they > declaim that business is not concerned ?merely? with profit but also with > promoting desirable ?social? ends; that business has a ?social conscience? > and takes seriously its responsibilities for providing > employment, eliminating discrimination, avoiding pollution and whatever > else may be the catchwords of the contemporary crop of reformers. In fact > they are?or would be if they or any one else took them seriously? > preaching pure and unadulterated socialism. Businessmen who talk this way > are unwitting puppets of the intellectual forces that have been > undermining the basis of a free society these past decades. > > > It will be hard to find a better statement of the ideology that has got us > all into the current mess. > > On the left, was it with Lenin that capitalism became viewed as a > necessary prerequisite to socialism? For example, as I understand it after > the revolution in Mexico, 1910-1920, the PRI (Partido Revolucionario > Institucional) worked hard to turn the indigenous peoples into a > proletariat. This was the only way they could imagine societal progress: > quickly moving the country into capitalism so as to achieve socialism. I > conclude that it was not only Stalin who taught this. > > Martin > > > On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:57 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > If you click on the link that Henry, and before him John, offered, you get > the pro-natural-capital side of a debate in the pages of the Guardian on > whether or not "nature" can be valued as capital and whether it is good or > bad for nature for humans to do this. I think that in CHAT, we are indebted > to Marx for many things, but surely one debt we would do well not to > disavow is Marx's insistence (in Critique of the Gotha programme and > elsewhere) that nature is NOT capital: on the contrary, humans and all of > their various property forms from communism to capitalism must be > considered peculiar forms of nature. This is a discussion that CHAT needs > to have if we are going to retain the AT in CHAT. I disagree with Peter > Jones on many many things, but one thing I heartily agree with him on is > the idea that Leontiev brings an intensely anti-naturalistic view of > activity into activity theory--humans acting as subjects on passive > environments to produce beneficial outcomes. > > Marx had a better idea: in the Ethnological Notebooks, he shows us that > capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no universal stage > (contrary to what Stalin taught). Western capitalism, with its idea of > nature as capital, is really just one extreme variant. In Marx's columns > on the Sepoy rebellion and the Taiping rebellion, he even posits an > "Asiantic mode of production" that had virtually nothing to do with > feudalism. So to say that South Korea and Japan are equally capitalist > societies is really a little like saying that China and the USSR were > equally non-capitalist. Deus Sive Natura: and neither one is capital. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: > Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, > Hasan, and Vygotsky > > Some free e-prints today available at: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!RPhZDSTWklPFNNVX5ZygsIrky2E8UdGSQd69tXmBl7roVIEtfrXOHHoX1cacJ5Amyt9hEA$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RPhZDSTWklPFNNVX5ZygsIrky2E8UdGSQd69tXmBl7roVIEtfrXOHHoX1cacJ5A1TJkZFw$ > > > > On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 3:43 AM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Martin, John and Andy >> Thanks to Martin for kicking off this topic and John and Andy for >> following up. I has amazed me to find, for me, how the RTZ narrative >> resonates with both Navajo and Pueblo narratives here in New Mexico. How >> evil RTZ is, but how wonderful the courage of our native peoples! >> >> Chaco Canyon IS a tourist destination here in New Mexico. Though there >> has been no destruction of the site that, based on Native American >> narratives and the efforts of archeologists, is architecturally spectacular >> evidence of the pre-Colombian culture from which the present-day Pueblos >> come. What parallels RTZ activities on aboriginal lands in Australia is the >> drilling for gas and oil on Navajo lands surrounding Chaco and a rush to >> buy more rights while Trump is in power. There have been protests, though >> nothing as intense and effective as the Standing Rock protests to protect >> water on native lands to our north and east from gas and oil predation (the >> pipeline). Standing Rock was LED by Native Americans, many from the Navajo, >> Apache and Pueblo near me. >> >> I just saw yesterday a 30-year-old film that is one of the offerings of >> the Vision Maker Film Festival: Clear Cut. I recommend it, or at least a >> look at the wiki article about it. It couldn?t be more timely. It?s messy, >> where contention between environmental and logging interests and division >> WITHIN the native community (traditon vs. jobs) leave one stunned. What >> redeems a messy struggle is exactly what Andy says: The aboriginal people >> of the world do it for us! In the same way, when ?our? Pueblos put on >> feasts and invite us in to witness their dances, they do it for us. Perhaps >> you recall the movie ?Koyaniskaatsi?, la Hopi word that has been translated >> as "life out of balance". (The Hopis are a Puebloan people, descendants of >> the Chacoan culture. The Navajos and Apaches arrived here about the same >> time as the European colonizers, based on linguistic and genetic evidence.) >> If you live in New Mexico, you are around Pueblo people. If you are really >> lucky, and many of us are, you become friends with them and they invite you >> to share their food at the feasts! How generous is this? They do it for us. >> >> The RTZ narrative is not only destructive to cultural capital, it is >> implicated in natural capital ( >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/nov/23/monbiot-natural-capital-wrong-conservation__;!!Mih3wA!RPhZDSTWklPFNNVX5ZygsIrky2E8UdGSQd69tXmBl7roVIEtfrXOHHoX1cacJ5BQW9WL2Q$ >> ) >> via climate change. (The link here, to a Guardian article is available >> through the first link in John?s post). Here again we should look to our >> native peoples. There is credible research that concludes the climate >> change lengthens fire seasons but wrong-headed environmental policies make >> the fires more intense, hence less controllable. Add to this the incursion >> of housing into forested areas and the destruction is a doubly >> self-inflicted wound. And hold on for this one for the best CHAT >> connection: Native peoples of this continent used to set controlled burns >> to remove the kind of unburnt fuel to avoid such conflagrations. Today some >> of the best-trained and most effective firefighters in this country are >> Native Americans. Cultural capital. They do it for us, and their example >> from the past can serve us now. Cultural capital. >> >> I believe I have crowed before about New Mexico and our Native Americans. >> Australia has crowing rights as well. And, for standing proud, there?s >> nothing like an anthem. The best anthem music I have EVER heard comes from >> Australia: Yothu Yindi What a great project that brings together white >> people and people of color. What great creative collaboration. Andy, I am >> telling you again, project is a great unit of analysis, precisely because >> it brings together cognition and affect, because it embodies active >> orientation. In my country, it is pretty well agreed that the natives got >> screwed, across the political divide. Black Lives Matter is more complex, >> but there is hope that the question of race is now where LGBTQ issues were >> at the time of the AIDS crisis, in the last century. Back then we could >> never have guessed we would be where we are with non-gender-conforming >> acceptance now. Just saying, as much for myself as for anybody else >> listening. >> >> La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n >> Henry >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Er. " *NO *physical markers" >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 14/09/2020 11:43 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list before noticing that John had >> already responded, and John is much better informed than me about these >> matters, and yet I spoke as if he didn't exist. My apologies. >> >> These caves are nothing for tourism. They are too remote and there are >> others more accessible. I believe the caves have been under Native Title as >> a result of a bitter struggle to protect them by the local people in the >> 1990s. This means that RTZ had to get permission from the PKK people. The >> lawyers swindled them. >> >> In my view, all these sites which are not only part of Aboriginal >> heritage (there are places which have *NO *physical markers of their >> status but are sacred to the local people) but self-evidently of *world* >> heritage. But I don't think these caves were registered as World Heritage. >> I have not heard the discussion about this (John?). No-one wants to say >> this, I think, because it implies that Indigenous values are somehow less >> important than human values. For example, under the law as it stands the >> PKK Land Council would have a right to let RTZ destroy the caves and maybe >> a million dollars or two in the bank or a new school, would be enough. This >> is not a hypothetical. One of the reasons that the Indigenous people remain >> impoverished even where they have Native Title over large areas of land, is >> that they live, after all, in a capitalist country and Native title cannot >> be sold. It is not a commodity. Therefore it is not a form of wealth. You >> can't get a mortgage to build a house on land you own by Native title. You >> can't sell a block to a farmer so you can buy agricultural equipment to >> farm another block. In short, by blocking the Indigenous people from >> monetising their land rights we trap them in poverty. In general, the >> indigenous people are happy to forgo tourist income to protect their sacred >> sites (e.g. Uluru) and I don't doubt for an instant, that if they'd been >> properly consulted they never would have agreed to the destruction of the >> caves. Obviously. But they do have to have rights to trade with their land. >> But also the world needs to keep absolutely unique archaeological sites >> pristine and the local people should be supported by governments to do the >> work of protecting them on *our* behalf. Recognising the great cost >> entailed. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote: >> >> Thanks, John and Andy, >> >> I suppose that I am naive, for this event astonishes me in so many >> different ways. I would have assumed that the land title or native title >> granted to indigenous peoples over some territory in Australia would have >> included the Juuken Gorge caves. I would have assumed that these caves were >> a national cultural heritage site, or even a world cultural heritage site. >> I would have assumed that indigenous rights would have more importance to >> the Australian government, and indeed to the Australian people. I would >> have assumed that, while mining is apparently of great economic importance >> to the country, the government would have considered the economic value of >> this site for tourism, or simply the impact that destroying the caves would >> have on Australia?s reputation. And while I suppose that unbridled >> rapaciousness on the part of an international mining company is hardly a >> surprise, I would have thought that Rio Tinto would also have considered >> the negative publicity that their actions would create. >> >> How can we express our displeasure to the various parties involved? Are >> there petitions that one can sign? Or Twitter accounts to which one can >> tweet? >> >> I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if >> his bonus this year would have been A$4.9 million. Perhaps he could donate >> a few years of his salary to establish a foundation that could work for >> indigenous peoples? rights. >> >> sadly >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps Clark < >> john.crippsclark@deakin.edu.au> wrote: >> >> The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves (which I assume you are >> referring to) is a much more villainous act than was originally portrayed >> and reflects the venal racism not only of the company but also of the State >> Government. For those not familiar with this shocking crime, the $80b Anglo >> Australian mining company which on Sunday 24th of May blew up a site sacred >> to the Puutu Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) traditional owners and >> occupied for 46,000 years at least, to extend iron ore mining. "?It?s one >> of the most sacred sites in the Pilbara region ? we wanted to have that >> area protected,? PKKP director Burchell Hayes. The traditional owners tried >> desperately to stop the blast once they became aware it was impending. >> >> At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there was a misunderstanding" but >> and, after much outrage, the three members of the executive had their multi >> million dollar bonuses reduced. It has subsequently emerged that Rio Tinto >> had contracted lawyers to oppose any injunctions before the crime was >> committed. The chief executive and two of his underlings have resigned. >> >> The crime was legal and was made possible by State Government laws which >> are stacked in favour of miners. Assessments of the cultural and >> environmental significance are made with little investigation and remain in >> place for decades and have rarely been successfully be challenged. No >> permission to destroy heritage sites in WA has been refused (and there have >> been 463 applications). >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ >> >> It is not as if we didn?t know that this would happen. Norway's pension >> fund divested their holdings in Rio Tinto in 2008: "Exclusion of a company >> from the Fund reflects our unwillingness to run an unacceptable risk of >> contributing to grossly unethical conduct. The Council on Ethics has >> concluded that Rio Tinto is directly involved, through its participation in >> the Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the severe environmental damage caused >> by that mining operation." >> ? Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of Finance >> >> A useful background briefing of indigenous rights in Australia: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ >> >> ?On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of >> Martin Packer" > mpacker@cantab.net> wrote: >> >> Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to?? >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for the >> named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or >> storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this >> email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise >> the sender by return email or telephone. >> >> Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments >> are error or virus free. >> >> >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200916/70a3368e/attachment.html From robsub@ariadne.org.uk Wed Sep 16 02:13:48 2020 From: robsub@ariadne.org.uk (robsub@ariadne.org.uk) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 10:13:48 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> <6fb54124-b5ef-a061-c570-ecbbb075ce7d@ariadne.org.uk> Message-ID: Very informative, David - thank you. Poland moves around, of course, quite literally - maybe that's what it is :-) Rob On 16/09/2020 09:55, David Kellogg wrote: > Rob-- > > Mental maps fascinate me too. I think that in Marx's time the > distinction was a religious one: the areas that belonged to the > Eastern Roman Empire, and then Byzantium, and then constituted the > religious domain of the Orthodox Church constituted Eastern Europe, > except Poland which although Catholic was part of the Russian empire > (and spoke a Slavic language). Of course, the distinction between > Southern Europe and Northern Europe was ALSO a religious?one--again, > except for Poland. I wonder what it is about Poland!. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: > Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between > Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky > > Some free e-prints today available at: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!UsU8JIMlK08PWDRU6ZjEsWP8thEchPfbNZGQLrFqlCNseRri13SPhK9P8qgDDP9fS9LpRw$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological > Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UsU8JIMlK08PWDRU6ZjEsWP8thEchPfbNZGQLrFqlCNseRri13SPhK9P8qgDDP-5oia81A$ > > > > On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 5:20 PM robsub@ariadne.org.uk > > wrote: > > Slightly off topic, but mental maps have always fascinated me. I > wonder what Marx meant by "western" Europe. Where was the boundary > then between "western" and "eastern" Europe? Was it just in Marx's > mental map or a common mental map? > > Rob > > On 16/09/2020 01:33, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> This letter: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1881/letters/81_03_08.htm__;!!Mih3wA!UsU8JIMlK08PWDRU6ZjEsWP8thEchPfbNZGQLrFqlCNseRri13SPhK9P8qgDDP9Q5EGq4w$ >> >> is one occasion when Marx makes it clear that he makes no claim >> for the inevitability of a capitalist stage of social >> development, only that this was what was actually the case in >> Europe in his time. Note that Marx's correspondence with Vera >> Zasulich was published in Russia in 1924, so Vygotsky would have >> been aware of this. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 16/09/2020 1:58 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>>> capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no >>>> universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). >>> >>> This happens to be something I?ve been thinking about recently ? >>> the ?evitability? (avoidability, as opposed to inevitability) of >>> capitalism. I?ve been reading some of the work of Douglass >>> North, who won a Nobel prize in economics in 1993 for his >>> analysis of the role that institutions have played in economic >>> ?development,? He thought ?he was describing how the West >>> achieved ?progress? and has been able to ?evolve? further than >>> other regions, but one can read his work as describing >>> alternative pathways in the formation of economic systems, which >>> in the West has led to an imbalance in which profit and growth >>> have become the only measures of societal and individual >>> achievement. >>> >>> A neat illustration: the NY Times has been publishing >>> reflections upon an article written 50 years ago by Milton >>> Friedman titled "The Social Responsibility Of Business Is >>> to?Increase Its Profits." Friedman wrote: >>> >>> WHEN I hear businessmen speak eloquently about the >>> ?social?responsibilities of business in a?free?enterprise >>> system,? I am reminded?of the wonderful line about the >>> Frenchman who discovered?at, the age of?70 that he had been >>> speaking prose all his life. The businessmen?believe that >>> they?are defending free enterprise when they declaim >>> that?business is not concerned ?merely? with profit?but also >>> with promoting?desirable ?social? ends; that business has a >>> ?social conscience? and?takes?seriously its responsibilities >>> for providing employment,?eliminating discrimination, >>> avoiding pollution?and whatever else may be?the catchwords >>> of the contemporary crop of reformers. In fact they?are?or >>> would be if they or any one else took them seriously? >>> preaching?pure and unadulterated?socialism. Businessmen who >>> talk this way are?unwitting puppets of the intellectual >>> forces that have?been undermining?the basis of a free >>> society these past decades. >>> >>> >>> It will be hard to find a better statement of the ideology that >>> has got us all into the current mess. >>> >>> On the left, was it with Lenin that capitalism became viewed as >>> a necessary prerequisite to socialism? For example, as I >>> understand it after the revolution in Mexico, 1910-1920, the PRI >>> (Partido Revolucionario Institucional) worked hard to turn the >>> indigenous peoples into a proletariat. This was the only way >>> they could imagine societal progress: quickly moving the country >>> into capitalism so as to achieve socialism. I conclude that it >>> was not only Stalin who taught this. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>>> On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:57 PM, David Kellogg >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> If you click on the link that Henry, and before him John, >>>> offered, you get the pro-natural-capital side of a debate in >>>> the pages of the Guardian on whether or not "nature" can be >>>> valued as capital and whether it is good or bad for nature for >>>> humans to do this. I think that in CHAT, we are indebted to >>>> Marx for many things, but surely one debt we would do well not >>>> to disavow is Marx's insistence (in Critique of the Gotha >>>> programme and elsewhere) that nature is NOT capital: on the >>>> contrary, humans and all of their various property forms from >>>> communism to capitalism must be considered peculiar forms of >>>> nature. This is a discussion that CHAT needs to have if we are >>>> going to retain the AT in CHAT. I disagree with Peter Jones on >>>> many many things, but one thing I heartily agree with him on is >>>> the idea that Leontiev brings an intensely anti-naturalistic >>>> view of activity into activity theory--humans acting as >>>> subjects on passive environments to produce beneficial outcomes. >>>> >>>> Marx had a better idea: in the Ethnological Notebooks, he shows >>>> us that capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is >>>> no universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). Western >>>> capitalism, with its idea of nature as capital, is really? just >>>> one extreme variant. In Marx's columns on the Sepoy rebellion >>>> and the Taiping rebellion, he even posits an "Asiantic mode of >>>> production" that had virtually nothing to do with feudalism. So >>>> to say that South Korea and Japan are equally capitalist >>>> societies is really a little like saying that China and the >>>> USSR were equally non-capitalist. Deus Sive Natura: and neither >>>> one is capital. >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: >>>> Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between >>>> Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky >>>> >>>> Some free e-prints today available at: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!UsU8JIMlK08PWDRU6ZjEsWP8thEchPfbNZGQLrFqlCNseRri13SPhK9P8qgDDP9fS9LpRw$ >>>> >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's >>>> Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UsU8JIMlK08PWDRU6ZjEsWP8thEchPfbNZGQLrFqlCNseRri13SPhK9P8qgDDP-5oia81A$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 3:43 AM HENRY SHONERD >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Martin, John and Andy >>>> Thanks to Martin for kicking off this topic and John and >>>> Andy for following up. I has amazed me to find, for me, how >>>> the RTZ narrative resonates with both Navajo and Pueblo >>>> narratives here in New Mexico. How evil RTZ ?is, but how >>>> wonderful the courage of our native peoples! >>>> >>>> Chaco Canyon IS a tourist destination here in New Mexico. >>>> Though there has been no destruction of the site that, >>>> based on Native American narratives and the efforts of >>>> archeologists, is architecturally spectacular evidence of >>>> the pre-Colombian culture from which the present-day >>>> Pueblos come. What parallels RTZ activities on aboriginal >>>> lands in Australia is the drilling for gas and oil on >>>> Navajo lands surrounding Chaco and a rush to buy more >>>> rights while Trump is in power. There have been protests, >>>> though nothing as intense and effective as the Standing >>>> Rock protests to protect water on native lands to our north >>>> and east from gas and oil predation (the pipeline). >>>> Standing Rock was LED by Native Americans, many from the >>>> Navajo, Apache and Pueblo near me. >>>> >>>> I just saw yesterday a 30-year-old film that is one of the >>>> offerings of the Vision Maker Film Festival: Clear Cut. I >>>> recommend it, or at least a look at the wiki article about >>>> it. It couldn?t be more timely. It?s messy, where >>>> contention between environmental and logging interests and >>>> division WITHIN the native community (traditon vs. jobs) >>>> leave one stunned. What redeems a messy struggle is exactly >>>> what Andy says: The aboriginal people of the world do it >>>> for us! In the same way, when ?our? Pueblos put on feasts >>>> and invite us in to witness their dances, they do it for >>>> us. Perhaps you recall the movie ?Koyaniskaatsi?, la Hopi >>>> word that has been translated as "life out of balance". >>>> (The Hopis are a Puebloan people, descendants of the >>>> Chacoan culture. The Navajos and Apaches arrived here about >>>> the same time as the European colonizers, based on >>>> linguistic and genetic evidence.) If you live in New >>>> Mexico, you are around Pueblo people. If you are really >>>> lucky, and many of us are, you become friends with them and >>>> they invite you to share their food at the feasts! How >>>> generous is this? They do it for us. >>>> >>>> The RTZ narrative is not only destructive to cultural >>>> capital, it is implicated in natural capital >>>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/nov/23/monbiot-natural-capital-wrong-conservation__;!!Mih3wA!UsU8JIMlK08PWDRU6ZjEsWP8thEchPfbNZGQLrFqlCNseRri13SPhK9P8qgDDP9KEa9aFA$ >>>> ) >>>> via climate change. (The link here, to a Guardian article >>>> is available through the first link in John?s post). Here >>>> again we should look to our native peoples. There is >>>> credible research that concludes the climate change >>>> lengthens fire seasons but wrong-headed environmental >>>> policies make the fires more intense, hence less >>>> controllable. Add to this the incursion of housing into >>>> forested areas and the destruction is a doubly >>>> self-inflicted wound. And hold on for this one for the best >>>> CHAT connection: Native peoples of this continent used to >>>> set controlled burns to remove the kind of unburnt fuel to >>>> avoid such conflagrations. Today some of ?the best-trained >>>> and most effective firefighters in this country are Native >>>> Americans. Cultural capital. They do it for us, and their >>>> example from the past can serve us now. Cultural capital. >>>> >>>> I believe I have crowed before about New Mexico and our >>>> Native Americans. Australia has crowing rights as well. >>>> And, for standing proud, there?s nothing like an anthem. >>>> The best anthem music I have EVER heard comes from >>>> Australia: Yothu Yindi What a great project that brings >>>> together white people and people of color. What great >>>> creative collaboration. Andy, I am telling you again, >>>> project is a great unit of analysis, precisely because it >>>> brings together cognition and affect, because it embodies >>>> active orientation. In my country, it is pretty well agreed >>>> that the natives got screwed, across the political divide. >>>> Black Lives Matter is more complex, but there is hope that >>>> the question of race is now where LGBTQ issues were at the >>>> time of the AIDS crisis, in the last century. Back then we >>>> could never have guessed we would be where we are with >>>> non-gender-conforming acceptance now. Just saying, as much >>>> for myself as for anybody else listening. >>>> >>>> La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Er. " *NO *physical markers" >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> >>>>> Home Page >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 14/09/2020 11:43 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list before >>>>>> noticing that John had already responded, and John is >>>>>> much better informed than me about these matters, and yet >>>>>> I spoke as if he didn't exist. My apologies. >>>>>> >>>>>> These caves are nothing for tourism. They are too remote >>>>>> and there are others more accessible. I believe the caves >>>>>> have been under Native Title as a result of a bitter >>>>>> struggle to protect them by the local people in the >>>>>> 1990s. This means that RTZ had to get permission from the >>>>>> PKK people. The lawyers swindled them. >>>>>> >>>>>> In my view, all these sites which are not only part of >>>>>> Aboriginal heritage (there are places which have *NO >>>>>> *physical markers of their status but are sacred to the >>>>>> local people) but self-evidently of *world* heritage. But >>>>>> I don't think these caves were registered as World >>>>>> Heritage. I have not heard the discussion about this >>>>>> (John?). No-one wants to say this, I think, because it >>>>>> implies that Indigenous values are somehow less important >>>>>> than human values. For example, under the law as it >>>>>> stands the PKK Land Council would have a right to let RTZ >>>>>> destroy the caves and maybe a million dollars or two in >>>>>> the bank or a new school, would be enough. This is not a >>>>>> hypothetical. One of the reasons that the Indigenous >>>>>> people remain impoverished even where they have Native >>>>>> Title over large areas of land, is that they live, after >>>>>> all, in a capitalist country and Native title cannot be >>>>>> sold. It is not a commodity. Therefore it is not a form >>>>>> of wealth. You can't get a mortgage to build a house on >>>>>> land you own by Native title. You can't sell a block to a >>>>>> farmer so you can buy agricultural equipment to farm >>>>>> another block. In short, by blocking the Indigenous >>>>>> people from monetising their land rights we trap them in >>>>>> poverty. In general, the indigenous people are happy to >>>>>> forgo tourist income to protect their sacred sites (e.g. >>>>>> Uluru) and I don't doubt for an instant, that if they'd >>>>>> been properly consulted they never would have agreed to >>>>>> the destruction of the caves. Obviously. But they do have >>>>>> to have rights to trade with their land. But also the >>>>>> world needs to keep absolutely unique archaeological >>>>>> sites pristine and the local people should be supported >>>>>> by governments to do the work of protecting them on *our* >>>>>> behalf. Recognising the great cost entailed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>> >>>>>> Home Page >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>>>>>> Thanks, John and Andy, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I suppose that I am naive, for this event astonishes me >>>>>>> in so many different ways. I would have assumed that the >>>>>>> land title or native title granted to indigenous peoples >>>>>>> over some territory in Australia would have included >>>>>>> the?Juuken Gorge caves. I would have assumed that these >>>>>>> caves were a national cultural heritage site, or even a >>>>>>> world cultural heritage site. I would have assumed that >>>>>>> indigenous rights would have more importance to the >>>>>>> Australian government, and indeed to the Australian >>>>>>> people. I would have assumed that, while mining is >>>>>>> apparently of great economic importance to the country, >>>>>>> the government would have considered the economic value >>>>>>> of this site for tourism, or simply the impact that >>>>>>> destroying the caves would have on Australia?s >>>>>>> reputation. And while I suppose that unbridled >>>>>>> rapaciousness on the part of an international mining >>>>>>> company is hardly a surprise, I would have thought that >>>>>>> Rio Tinto would also have considered the negative >>>>>>> publicity that their actions would create. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How can we express our displeasure to the various >>>>>>> parties involved? Are there petitions that one can sign? >>>>>>> Or Twitter accounts to which one can tweet? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO >>>>>>> Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if his bonus this year would >>>>>>> have been A$4.9 million. Perhaps he could donate a few >>>>>>> years of his salary to establish a foundation that could >>>>>>> work for indigenous peoples? rights. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> sadly >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps Clark >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves (which I >>>>>>>> assume you are referring to) is a much more villainous >>>>>>>> act than was originally portrayed and reflects the >>>>>>>> venal racism not only of the company but also of the >>>>>>>> State Government. For those not familiar with this >>>>>>>> shocking crime, the $80b Anglo Australian mining >>>>>>>> company which on Sunday 24th of May blew up a site >>>>>>>> sacred to the Puutu Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) >>>>>>>> traditional owners and occupied for 46,000 years at >>>>>>>> least, to extend iron ore mining. "?It?s one of the >>>>>>>> most sacred sites in the Pilbara region ? we wanted to >>>>>>>> have that area protected,? PKKP director Burchell >>>>>>>> Hayes. The traditional owners tried desperately to stop >>>>>>>> the blast once they became aware it was impending. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there was a >>>>>>>> misunderstanding" but and, after much outrage, the >>>>>>>> three members of the executive had their multi million >>>>>>>> dollar bonuses reduced. It has subsequently emerged >>>>>>>> that Rio Tinto had contracted lawyers to oppose any >>>>>>>> injunctions before the crime was committed. The chief >>>>>>>> executive and two of his underlings have resigned. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The crime was legal and was made possible by State >>>>>>>> Government laws which are stacked in favour of miners. >>>>>>>> Assessments of the cultural and environmental >>>>>>>> significance are made with little investigation and >>>>>>>> remain in place for decades and have rarely been >>>>>>>> successfully be challenged. No permission to destroy >>>>>>>> heritage sites in WA has been refused (and there have >>>>>>>> been 463 applications). >>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is not as if we didn?t know that this would happen. >>>>>>>> Norway's pension fund divested their holdings in Rio >>>>>>>> Tinto in 2008: "Exclusion of a company from the Fund >>>>>>>> reflects our unwillingness to run an unacceptable risk >>>>>>>> of contributing to grossly unethical conduct. The >>>>>>>> Council on Ethics has concluded that Rio Tinto is >>>>>>>> directly involved, through its participation in the >>>>>>>> Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the severe environmental >>>>>>>> damage caused by that mining operation." >>>>>>>> ?????Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of Finance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A useful background briefing of indigenous rights in >>>>>>>> Australia: >>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ?On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>> on behalf of >>>>>>>> Martin Packer" >>>>>>> on behalf of >>>>>>>> mpacker@cantab.net > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ???Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to?? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ???Martin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Important Notice: The contents of this email are >>>>>>>> intended solely for the named addressee and are >>>>>>>> confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or >>>>>>>> storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you >>>>>>>> have received this email in error, please delete it and >>>>>>>> any attachments immediately and advise the sender by >>>>>>>> return email or telephone. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Deakin University does not warrant that this email and >>>>>>>> any attachments are error or virus free. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200916/2f673168/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Wed Sep 16 06:46:10 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 23:46:10 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: <14bdc226-b4d9-0469-cc17-9a44abae69cd@ariadne.org.uk> References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> <14bdc226-b4d9-0469-cc17-9a44abae69cd@ariadne.org.uk> Message-ID: <89fd6b19-f513-b1d2-344d-0894eba3c7ce@marxists.org> Mmm. Well, I see all this from a great distance. I always had the impression that Macron or Boris Johnson formally adhere to climate science but are accused of dragging their heels rather than outright denial of the science. In Oz we have a government which is going to build a gas-fired power station using government funds when it isn't needed and private capital won't invest in it, just for the sake of proving that climate science is bunk. But my point was that issues can be Left in one time and place and right in another. Often little to do with the real social content of the issue. andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/09/2020 6:14 pm, robsub@ariadne.org.uk wrote: > Andy "in France and the UK climate change denial is more > associated with the Left than the Right" > > I don't know about France, but in the UK climate change > denial is definitely a right wing thing. It now goes with > Brexit. There are a lot of climate deniers who habitually > vote Labour but I doubt that you could call many of them > "left wing". There is a heavily conservative lump of > Labour votes in what you might call the traditional > working classes, as demonstrated by the ease with which in > Dec 2019 the so called red wall of northern industrial (or > ex-industrial) Parliamentary seats became blue overnight. > > Much of this is to do with the fact that they have been > consistently lied to for forty years by the right wing > press, which a majority of them always read, despite being > Labour voters. Margaret Thatcher truly unleashed a demon > for which we are now paying the price. But both of those > facts are a topic for another day. > > Rob > > On 16/09/2020 01:50, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Thanks David. I think the reason that Vygotsky insisted >> on a General Psychology and specifically *not* a >> "Marxist" Psychology is indeed the same reason that I >> told Anthony that I think "Leftism" is not a helpful way >> to come to an understanding of Marxism. Our aim (this >> "we" constituted by our collaboration) is human >> emancipation. We need concepts which are *true*, >> irrespective of whether they are categorised as Left or >> Right. For example, in France and the UK climate change >> denial is more associated with the Left than the Right, >> while in Oz and the US climate change denial is >> associated with the Right. Political partisanship is no >> way to Science. Vygotsky wanted a Science, because his >> goal is human emancipation. Insofar as a Psychology >> defined itself as furthering *any *current of ideology, >> then it cannot be science. And BTW, that applies equally >> to Deborin or Bukharin. >> >> It remains the case though, in the words of the US >> commentator Seth Myers I think, that "reality has a >> liberal bias." >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 16/09/2020 7:10 am, David Kellogg wrote: >>> Anthony often wonders whether there is any necessary >>> connection between Marxism and what he calls "leftism". >>> Andy even has a video where he suggests that making that >>> connection is not a "helpful" way of thinking about >>> Marxist philosophy. >>> >>> I get?it. When we read "The HIstorical Sense of the >>> Crisis in Psychology" we hear Vygotsky asking >>> his?closest?friends and collaborators NOT to use the >>> term Marxism when referring to their work,?not only >>> because he doesn't want it associated with political >>> pietism but also because he doesn't think that the >>> current method of "copy and paste" quotes from Marx and >>> Engels is yielding anything like a real Marxist >>> psychology. (Interestingly, the late Lucien Seve >>> believed that this criticism was directed at Deborin, >>> but Andy thinks it is directed against mechanists like >>> Bukharin). >>> >>> But to?me Anthony's question answers itself. What he >>> calls "leftism" is really just what Andy calls "world >>> perezhivanie", it is sociogenesis made into conscious >>> awareness. That is, it is human societies confronted by >>> other?societies and trying to change themselves rather >>> than be changed. When they do this, even if they do not >>> recognize any "final, complete, ideal form" (and >>> Vygotsky says no such recognition is possible in Chapter >>> Four of Foundations of Pedology) they become aware that >>> the principles of blind adaptation themselves can be >>> changed (as animals do) into those of design. Contrary >>> to individuals adapting to the environment, societies >>> that?look after the?old, the young, and the sick are >>> made stronger and better, because the whole course of >>> development is deliberate and indirect adaptation rather >>> than blind and direct.? ? ?. >>> >>> I think, Martin, that both Lenin and Trotsky believed >>> strongly in the evitability of capitalism, and both >>> considered it to be the key question of their time, both >>> in the Russian and in the incipient Chinese revolution. >>> They did come up with different solutions, and you are >>> right to say that Lenin's solution lent itself much more >>> easily to Stalin's believe in the five universal stages >>> of human society (primitive communism, slavery, >>> feudalism, capitalism and socialism). Lenin believed >>> that the capitalist development of the Russian empire >>> (which of course included many non-capitalist societies) >>> can and should be stopped by a "democratic dictatorship >>> of the proletariat and the peasantry", which would bring >>> in capitalism but exercise dictatorship over the >>> capitalists themselves, ensuring that the democratic >>> tasks of the revolution (ensuring franchise to the >>> disenfranchised, including land to the tillers) were >>> carried out in a way that would enable a transition to >>> socialism (withering away the state, common ownership of >>> land). Trotsky believed that no capitalist stage would >>> be necessary, because there would be revolutions in >>> Germany, England, France, and above all the USA,?and the >>> world organization of production would allow >>> non-capitalist societies to develop from primitive >>> communism to true communism. >>> >>> When Joseph Glick wrote his "Prologue" to Volume Four of >>> the (English) Vygotsky Collected Works, he argued that >>> one reason why Vygotsky was so important to educators in >>> the post-Piaget era was that he offered a way of doing >>> without universal Piagetian stages. We now know, from >>> the pedological work, that Vygotsky had his own stages >>> in mind. But we still don't know if he saw the stages as >>> evitable the way that Lenin did or whether he believed, >>> as did Trotsky, in permanent revolution. >>> (By the way, Renee Van der Veer has now published a >>> translation of "Pedology of School Age"--in English!) >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D6WDK3H/ref=pe_385040_118058080_TE_M1DP__;!!Mih3wA!V9MuXrtzL2hCTa59NglAjNyZA0ulePo5VzbK5HTuuV2RyuiW9UJC2A-VtE224mG5Zx-TxA$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: >>> Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and >>> between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky >>> >>> Some free e-prints today available at: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!V9MuXrtzL2hCTa59NglAjNyZA0ulePo5VzbK5HTuuV2RyuiW9UJC2A-VtE224mHZmr23xg$ >>> >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's >>> Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!V9MuXrtzL2hCTa59NglAjNyZA0ulePo5VzbK5HTuuV2RyuiW9UJC2A-VtE224mHO1IldhQ$ >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 1:00 AM Martin Packer >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as >>>> capital, is no universal stage (contrary to what >>>> Stalin taught). >>> >>> This happens to be something I?ve been thinking >>> about recently ? the ?evitability? (avoidability, as >>> opposed to inevitability) of capitalism. I?ve been >>> reading some of the work of Douglass North, who won >>> a Nobel prize in economics in 1993 for his analysis >>> of the role that institutions have played in >>> economic ?development,? He thought ?he was >>> describing how the West achieved ?progress? and has >>> been able to ?evolve? further than other regions, >>> but one can read his work as describing alternative >>> pathways in the formation of economic systems, which >>> in the West has led to an imbalance in which profit >>> and growth have become the only measures of societal >>> and individual achievement. >>> >>> A neat illustration: the NY Times has been >>> publishing reflections upon an article written 50 >>> years ago by Milton Friedman titled "The Social >>> Responsibility Of Business Is to?Increase Its >>> Profits." Friedman wrote: >>> >>> WHEN I hear businessmen speak eloquently about >>> the ?social?responsibilities of business in >>> a?free?enterprise system,? I am reminded?of the >>> wonderful line about the Frenchman who >>> discovered?at, the age of?70 that he had been >>> speaking prose all his life. The >>> businessmen?believe that they?are defending free >>> enterprise when they declaim that?business is >>> not concerned ?merely? with profit?but also with >>> promoting?desirable ?social? ends; that business >>> has a ?social conscience? and?takes?seriously >>> its responsibilities for providing >>> employment,?eliminating discrimination, avoiding >>> pollution?and whatever else may be?the >>> catchwords of the contemporary crop of >>> reformers. In fact they?are?or would be if they >>> or any one else took them seriously? >>> preaching?pure and unadulterated?socialism. >>> Businessmen who talk this way are?unwitting >>> puppets of the intellectual forces that >>> have?been undermining?the basis of a free >>> society these past decades. >>> >>> >>> It will be hard to find a better statement of the >>> ideology that has got us all into the current mess. >>> >>> On the left, was it with Lenin that capitalism >>> became viewed as a necessary prerequisite to >>> socialism? For example, as I understand it after the >>> revolution in Mexico, 1910-1920, the PRI (Partido >>> Revolucionario Institucional) worked hard to turn >>> the indigenous peoples into a proletariat. This was >>> the only way they could imagine societal progress: >>> quickly moving the country into capitalism so as to >>> achieve socialism. I conclude that it was not only >>> Stalin who taught this. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>>> On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:57 PM, David Kellogg >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> If you click on the link that Henry, and before him >>>> John, offered, you get the pro-natural-capital side >>>> of a debate in the pages of the Guardian on whether >>>> or not "nature" can be valued as capital and >>>> whether it is good or bad for nature for humans to >>>> do this. I think that in CHAT, we are indebted to >>>> Marx for many things, but surely one debt we would >>>> do well not to disavow is Marx's insistence (in >>>> Critique of the Gotha programme and elsewhere) that >>>> nature is NOT capital: on the contrary, humans and >>>> all of their various property forms from communism >>>> to capitalism must be considered peculiar forms of >>>> nature. This is a discussion that CHAT needs to >>>> have if we are going to retain the AT in CHAT. I >>>> disagree with Peter Jones on many many things, but >>>> one thing I heartily agree with him on is the idea >>>> that Leontiev brings an intensely anti-naturalistic >>>> view of activity into activity theory--humans >>>> acting as subjects on passive environments to >>>> produce beneficial outcomes. >>>> >>>> Marx had a better idea: in the Ethnological >>>> Notebooks, he shows us that capitalism, and hence >>>> the idea of nature as capital, is no universal >>>> stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). Western >>>> capitalism, with its idea of nature as capital, is >>>> really? just one extreme variant. In Marx's columns >>>> on the Sepoy rebellion and the Taiping rebellion, >>>> he even posits an "Asiantic mode of production" >>>> that had virtually nothing to do with feudalism. So >>>> to say that South Korea and Japan are equally >>>> capitalist societies is really a little like saying >>>> that China and the USSR were equally >>>> non-capitalist. Deus Sive Natura: and neither one >>>> is capital. >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: >>>> Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in >>>> and between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky >>>> >>>> Some free e-prints today available at: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!V9MuXrtzL2hCTa59NglAjNyZA0ulePo5VzbK5HTuuV2RyuiW9UJC2A-VtE224mHZmr23xg$ >>>> >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. >>>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: >>>> Foundations of Pedology" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!V9MuXrtzL2hCTa59NglAjNyZA0ulePo5VzbK5HTuuV2RyuiW9UJC2A-VtE224mHO1IldhQ$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 3:43 AM HENRY SHONERD >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Martin, John and Andy >>>> Thanks to Martin for kicking off this topic and >>>> John and Andy for following up. I has amazed me >>>> to find, for me, how the RTZ narrative >>>> resonates with both Navajo and Pueblo >>>> narratives here in New Mexico. How evil RTZ >>>> ?is, but how wonderful the courage of our >>>> native peoples! >>>> >>>> Chaco Canyon IS a tourist destination here in >>>> New Mexico. Though there has been no >>>> destruction of the site that, based on Native >>>> American narratives and the efforts of >>>> archeologists, is architecturally spectacular >>>> evidence of the pre-Colombian culture from >>>> which the present-day Pueblos come. What >>>> parallels RTZ activities on aboriginal lands in >>>> Australia is the drilling for gas and oil on >>>> Navajo lands surrounding Chaco and a rush to >>>> buy more rights while Trump is in power. There >>>> have been protests, though nothing as intense >>>> and effective as the Standing Rock protests to >>>> protect water on native lands to our north and >>>> east from gas and oil predation (the pipeline). >>>> Standing Rock was LED by Native Americans, many >>>> from the Navajo, Apache and Pueblo near me. >>>> >>>> I just saw yesterday a 30-year-old film that is >>>> one of the offerings of the Vision Maker Film >>>> Festival: Clear Cut. I recommend it, or at >>>> least a look at the wiki article about it. It >>>> couldn?t be more timely. It?s messy, where >>>> contention between environmental and logging >>>> interests and division WITHIN the native >>>> community (traditon vs. jobs) leave one >>>> stunned. What redeems a messy struggle is >>>> exactly what Andy says: The aboriginal people >>>> of the world do it for us! In the same way, >>>> when ?our? Pueblos put on feasts and invite us >>>> in to witness their dances, they do it for us. >>>> Perhaps you recall the movie ?Koyaniskaatsi?, >>>> la Hopi word that has been translated as "life >>>> out of balance". (The Hopis are a Puebloan >>>> people, descendants of the Chacoan culture. The >>>> Navajos and Apaches arrived here about the same >>>> time as the European colonizers, based on >>>> linguistic and genetic evidence.) If you live >>>> in New Mexico, you are around Pueblo people. If >>>> you are really lucky, and many of us are, you >>>> become friends with them and they invite you to >>>> share their food at the feasts! How generous is >>>> this? They do it for us. >>>> >>>> The RTZ narrative is not only destructive to >>>> cultural capital, it is implicated in natural >>>> capital >>>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/nov/23/monbiot-natural-capital-wrong-conservation__;!!Mih3wA!V9MuXrtzL2hCTa59NglAjNyZA0ulePo5VzbK5HTuuV2RyuiW9UJC2A-VtE224mEZP96nDw$ >>>> ) >>>> via climate change. (The link here, to a >>>> Guardian article is available through the first >>>> link in John?s post). Here again we should look >>>> to our native peoples. There is credible >>>> research that concludes the climate change >>>> lengthens fire seasons but wrong-headed >>>> environmental policies make the fires more >>>> intense, hence less controllable. Add to this >>>> the incursion of housing into forested areas >>>> and the destruction is a doubly self-inflicted >>>> wound. And hold on for this one for the best >>>> CHAT connection: Native peoples of this >>>> continent used to set controlled burns to >>>> remove the kind of unburnt fuel to avoid such >>>> conflagrations. Today some of ?the best-trained >>>> and most effective firefighters in this country >>>> are Native Americans. Cultural capital. They do >>>> it for us, and their example from the past can >>>> serve us now. Cultural capital. >>>> >>>> I believe I have crowed before about New Mexico >>>> and our Native Americans. Australia has crowing >>>> rights as well. And, for standing proud, >>>> there?s nothing like an anthem. The best anthem >>>> music I have EVER heard comes from Australia: >>>> Yothu Yindi What a great project that brings >>>> together white people and people of color. What >>>> great creative collaboration. Andy, I am >>>> telling you again, project is a great unit of >>>> analysis, precisely because it brings together >>>> cognition and affect, because it embodies >>>> active orientation. In my country, it is pretty >>>> well agreed that the natives got screwed, >>>> across the political divide. Black Lives Matter >>>> is more complex, but there is hope that the >>>> question of race is now where LGBTQ issues were >>>> at the time of the AIDS crisis, in the last >>>> century. Back then we could never have guessed >>>> we would be where we are with >>>> non-gender-conforming acceptance now. Just >>>> saying, as much for myself as for anybody else >>>> listening. >>>> >>>> La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>> >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Er. " *NO *physical markers" >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> >>>>> Home Page >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 14/09/2020 11:43 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list >>>>>> before noticing that John had already >>>>>> responded, and John is much better informed >>>>>> than me about these matters, and yet I spoke >>>>>> as if he didn't exist. My apologies. >>>>>> >>>>>> These caves are nothing for tourism. They are >>>>>> too remote and there are others more >>>>>> accessible. I believe the caves have been >>>>>> under Native Title as a result of a bitter >>>>>> struggle to protect them by the local people >>>>>> in the 1990s. This means that RTZ had to get >>>>>> permission from the PKK people. The lawyers >>>>>> swindled them. >>>>>> >>>>>> In my view, all these sites which are not >>>>>> only part of Aboriginal heritage (there are >>>>>> places which have *NO *physical markers of >>>>>> their status but are sacred to the local >>>>>> people) but self-evidently of *world* >>>>>> heritage. But I don't think these caves were >>>>>> registered as World Heritage. I have not >>>>>> heard the discussion about this (John?). >>>>>> No-one wants to say this, I think, because it >>>>>> implies that Indigenous values are somehow >>>>>> less important than human values. For >>>>>> example, under the law as it stands the PKK >>>>>> Land Council would have a right to let RTZ >>>>>> destroy the caves and maybe a million dollars >>>>>> or two in the bank or a new school, would be >>>>>> enough. This is not a hypothetical. One of >>>>>> the reasons that the Indigenous people remain >>>>>> impoverished even where they have Native >>>>>> Title over large areas of land, is that they >>>>>> live, after all, in a capitalist country and >>>>>> Native title cannot be sold. It is not a >>>>>> commodity. Therefore it is not a form of >>>>>> wealth. You can't get a mortgage to build a >>>>>> house on land you own by Native title. You >>>>>> can't sell a block to a farmer so you can buy >>>>>> agricultural equipment to farm another block. >>>>>> In short, by blocking the Indigenous people >>>>>> from monetising their land rights we trap >>>>>> them in poverty. In general, the indigenous >>>>>> people are happy to forgo tourist income to >>>>>> protect their sacred sites (e.g. Uluru) and I >>>>>> don't doubt for an instant, that if they'd >>>>>> been properly consulted they never would have >>>>>> agreed to the destruction of the caves. >>>>>> Obviously. But they do have to have rights to >>>>>> trade with their land. But also the world >>>>>> needs to keep absolutely unique >>>>>> archaeological sites pristine and the local >>>>>> people should be supported by governments to >>>>>> do the work of protecting them on *our* >>>>>> behalf. Recognising the great cost entailed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>> >>>>>> Home Page >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>>>>>> Thanks, John and Andy, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I suppose that I am naive, for this event >>>>>>> astonishes me in so many different ways. I >>>>>>> would have assumed that the land title or >>>>>>> native title granted to indigenous peoples >>>>>>> over some territory in Australia would have >>>>>>> included the?Juuken Gorge caves. I would >>>>>>> have assumed that these caves were a >>>>>>> national cultural heritage site, or even a >>>>>>> world cultural heritage site. I would have >>>>>>> assumed that indigenous rights would have >>>>>>> more importance to the Australian >>>>>>> government, and indeed to the Australian >>>>>>> people. I would have assumed that, while >>>>>>> mining is apparently of great economic >>>>>>> importance to the country, the government >>>>>>> would have considered the economic value of >>>>>>> this site for tourism, or simply the impact >>>>>>> that destroying the caves would have on >>>>>>> Australia?s reputation. And while I suppose >>>>>>> that unbridled rapaciousness on the part of >>>>>>> an international mining company is hardly a >>>>>>> surprise, I would have thought that Rio >>>>>>> Tinto would also have considered the >>>>>>> negative publicity that their actions would >>>>>>> create. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How can we express our displeasure to the >>>>>>> various parties involved? Are there >>>>>>> petitions that one can sign? Or Twitter >>>>>>> accounts to which one can tweet? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO >>>>>>> Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if his bonus this >>>>>>> year would have been A$4.9 million. Perhaps >>>>>>> he could donate a few years of his salary to >>>>>>> establish a foundation that could work for >>>>>>> indigenous peoples? rights. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> sadly >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps >>>>>>>> Clark >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves >>>>>>>> (which I assume you are referring to) is a >>>>>>>> much more villainous act than was >>>>>>>> originally portrayed and reflects the venal >>>>>>>> racism not only of the company but also of >>>>>>>> the State Government. For those not >>>>>>>> familiar with this shocking crime, the $80b >>>>>>>> Anglo Australian mining company which on >>>>>>>> Sunday 24th of May blew up a site sacred to >>>>>>>> the Puutu Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) >>>>>>>> traditional owners and occupied for 46,000 >>>>>>>> years at least, to extend iron ore mining. >>>>>>>> "?It?s one of the most sacred sites in the >>>>>>>> Pilbara region ? we wanted to have that >>>>>>>> area protected,? PKKP director Burchell >>>>>>>> Hayes. The traditional owners tried >>>>>>>> desperately to stop the blast once they >>>>>>>> became aware it was impending. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly >>>>>>>> there was a misunderstanding" but and, >>>>>>>> after much outrage, the three members of >>>>>>>> the executive had their multi million >>>>>>>> dollar bonuses reduced. It has subsequently >>>>>>>> emerged that Rio Tinto had contracted >>>>>>>> lawyers to oppose any injunctions before >>>>>>>> the crime was committed. The chief >>>>>>>> executive and two of his underlings have >>>>>>>> resigned. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The crime was legal and was made possible >>>>>>>> by State Government laws which are stacked >>>>>>>> in favour of miners. Assessments of the >>>>>>>> cultural and environmental significance are >>>>>>>> made with little investigation and remain >>>>>>>> in place for decades and have rarely been >>>>>>>> successfully be challenged. No permission >>>>>>>> to destroy heritage sites in WA has been >>>>>>>> refused (and there have been 463 >>>>>>>> applications). >>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is not as if we didn?t know that this >>>>>>>> would happen. Norway's pension fund >>>>>>>> divested their holdings in Rio Tinto in >>>>>>>> 2008: "Exclusion of a company from the Fund >>>>>>>> reflects our unwillingness to run an >>>>>>>> unacceptable risk of contributing to >>>>>>>> grossly unethical conduct. The Council on >>>>>>>> Ethics has concluded that Rio Tinto is >>>>>>>> directly involved, through its >>>>>>>> participation in the Grasberg mine in >>>>>>>> Indonesia, in the severe environmental >>>>>>>> damage caused by that mining operation." >>>>>>>> ?????Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister >>>>>>>> of Finance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A useful background briefing of indigenous >>>>>>>> rights in Australia: >>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ?On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, >>>>>>>> "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> behalf of Martin Packer" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> behalf of mpacker@cantab.net >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ???Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc >>>>>>>> been up to?? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ???Martin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Important Notice: The contents of this >>>>>>>> email are intended solely for the named >>>>>>>> addressee and are confidential; any >>>>>>>> unauthorised use, reproduction or storage >>>>>>>> of the contents is expressly prohibited. If >>>>>>>> you have received this email in error, >>>>>>>> please delete it and any attachments >>>>>>>> immediately and advise the sender by return >>>>>>>> email or telephone. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Deakin University does not warrant that >>>>>>>> this email and any attachments are error or >>>>>>>> virus free. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200916/06328e9c/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Wed Sep 16 11:08:09 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 13:08:09 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: <89fd6b19-f513-b1d2-344d-0894eba3c7ce@marxists.org> References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> <14bdc226-b4d9-0469-cc17-9a44abae69cd@ariadne.org.uk> <89fd6b19-f513-b1d2-344d-0894eba3c7ce@marxists.org> Message-ID: <6850CFF7-F2BC-4933-86EE-2440499BFA6B@cantab.net> At last we?ve got our teeth into an important issue: whether Marx was on the left or on the right. :) Martin From robsub@ariadne.org.uk Wed Sep 16 11:45:37 2020 From: robsub@ariadne.org.uk (robsub@ariadne.org.uk) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 19:45:37 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: <89fd6b19-f513-b1d2-344d-0894eba3c7ce@marxists.org> References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> <14bdc226-b4d9-0469-cc17-9a44abae69cd@ariadne.org.uk> <89fd6b19-f513-b1d2-344d-0894eba3c7ce@marxists.org> Message-ID: You can't really categorise Johnson in terms of left or right. His key criterion for any political action is his own ego. he always wants power but never responsibility. He is finding out, rudely, that he cannot divest himself of responsibility in the office he holds. The Conservative party stopped being conservative with Margaret Thatcher. Alan Clark had it right - she was far too radical to be a Tory. But the Tory party went along with her because they always go with the person who can bring them to power. Then - eventually - they chose Cameron who has no political anchor except for a belief in privilege. Then they had a brief flirtation with May, who they hoped would be another iron lady, but turned out to be tin. Then they chose johnson who has no political anchor at all. And I'm cynical enough to believe that the tories will cling to climate change denial as long as possible because of donations and friendship networks, not for any other reason. But I can see your main point, Andy, that issues can be left at one time and right at another - the British position on the EU is a good example. When we joined tories were pro and labour were against. (Liberals were and are pro, being very internationalist in orientation). Now the Tories are vehemently against and Labour are all over the place. Rob On 16/09/2020 14:46, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Mmm. Well, I see all this from a great distance. I always had the > impression that Macron or Boris Johnson formally adhere to climate > science but are accused of dragging their heels rather than outright > denial of the science. In Oz we have a government which is going to > build a gas-fired power station using government funds when it isn't > needed and private capital won't invest in it, just for the sake of > proving that climate science is bunk. > > But my point was that issues can be Left in one time and place and > right in another. Often little to do with the real social content of > the issue. > > andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 16/09/2020 6:14 pm, robsub@ariadne.org.uk wrote: >> Andy "in France and the UK climate change denial is more associated >> with the Left than the Right" >> >> I don't know about France, but in the UK climate change denial is >> definitely a right wing thing. It now goes with Brexit. There are a >> lot of climate deniers who habitually vote Labour but I doubt that >> you could call many of them "left wing". There is a heavily >> conservative lump of Labour votes in what you might call the >> traditional working classes, as demonstrated by the ease with which >> in Dec 2019 the so called red wall of northern industrial (or >> ex-industrial) Parliamentary seats became blue overnight. >> >> Much of this is to do with the fact that they have been consistently >> lied to for forty years by the right wing press, which a majority of >> them always read, despite being Labour voters. Margaret Thatcher >> truly unleashed a demon for which we are now paying the price. But >> both of those facts are a topic for another day. >> >> Rob >> >> On 16/09/2020 01:50, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> Thanks David. I think the reason that Vygotsky insisted on a General >>> Psychology and specifically *not* a "Marxist" Psychology is indeed >>> the same reason that I told Anthony that I think "Leftism" is not a >>> helpful way to come to an understanding of Marxism. Our aim (this >>> "we" constituted by our collaboration) is human emancipation. We >>> need concepts which are *true*, irrespective of whether they are >>> categorised as Left or Right. For example, in France and the UK >>> climate change denial is more associated with the Left than the >>> Right, while in Oz and the US climate change denial is associated >>> with the Right. Political partisanship is no way to Science. >>> Vygotsky wanted a Science, because his goal is human emancipation. >>> Insofar as a Psychology defined itself as furthering *any *current >>> of ideology, then it cannot be science. And BTW, that applies >>> equally to Deborin or Bukharin. >>> >>> It remains the case though, in the words of the US commentator Seth >>> Myers I think, that "reality has a liberal bias." >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> On 16/09/2020 7:10 am, David Kellogg wrote: >>>> Anthony often wonders whether there is any necessary connection >>>> between Marxism and what he calls "leftism". Andy even has a video >>>> where he suggests that making that connection is not a "helpful" >>>> way of thinking about Marxist philosophy. >>>> >>>> I get?it. When we read "The HIstorical Sense of the Crisis in >>>> Psychology" we hear Vygotsky asking his?closest?friends and >>>> collaborators NOT to use the term Marxism when referring to their >>>> work,?not only because he doesn't want it associated with political >>>> pietism but also because he doesn't think that the current method >>>> of "copy and paste" quotes from Marx and Engels is yielding >>>> anything like a real Marxist psychology. (Interestingly, the late >>>> Lucien Seve believed that this criticism was directed at Deborin, >>>> but Andy thinks it is directed against mechanists like Bukharin). >>>> >>>> But to?me Anthony's question answers itself. What he calls >>>> "leftism" is really just what Andy calls "world perezhivanie", it >>>> is sociogenesis made into conscious awareness. That is, it is human >>>> societies confronted by other?societies and trying to change >>>> themselves rather than be changed. When they do this, even if they >>>> do not recognize any "final, complete, ideal form" (and Vygotsky >>>> says no such recognition is possible in Chapter Four of Foundations >>>> of Pedology) they become aware that the principles of blind >>>> adaptation themselves can be changed (as animals do) into those of >>>> design. Contrary to individuals adapting to the environment, >>>> societies that?look after the?old, the young, and the sick are made >>>> stronger and better, because the whole course of development is >>>> deliberate and indirect adaptation rather than blind and direct. ? ?. >>>> >>>> I think, Martin, that both Lenin and Trotsky believed strongly in >>>> the evitability of capitalism, and both considered it to be the key >>>> question of their time, both in the Russian and in the incipient >>>> Chinese revolution. They did come up with different solutions, and >>>> you are right to say that Lenin's solution lent itself much more >>>> easily to Stalin's believe in the five universal stages of human >>>> society (primitive communism, slavery, feudalism, capitalism and >>>> socialism). Lenin believed that the capitalist development of the >>>> Russian empire (which of course included many non-capitalist >>>> societies) can and should be stopped by a "democratic dictatorship >>>> of the proletariat and the peasantry", which would bring in >>>> capitalism but exercise dictatorship over the capitalists >>>> themselves, ensuring that the democratic tasks of the revolution >>>> (ensuring franchise to the disenfranchised, including land to the >>>> tillers) were carried out in a way that would enable a transition >>>> to socialism (withering away the state, common ownership of land). >>>> Trotsky believed that no capitalist stage would be necessary, >>>> because there would be revolutions in Germany, England, France, and >>>> above all the USA,?and the world organization of production would >>>> allow non-capitalist societies to develop from primitive communism >>>> to true communism. >>>> >>>> When Joseph Glick wrote his "Prologue" to Volume Four of the >>>> (English) Vygotsky Collected Works, he argued that one reason why >>>> Vygotsky was so important to educators in the post-Piaget era was >>>> that he offered a way of doing without universal Piagetian stages. >>>> We now know, from the pedological work, that Vygotsky had his own >>>> stages in mind. But we still don't know if he saw the stages as >>>> evitable the way that Lenin did or whether he believed, as did >>>> Trotsky, in permanent revolution. >>>> (By the way, Renee Van der Veer has now published a translation of >>>> "Pedology of School Age"--in English!) >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D6WDK3H/ref=pe_385040_118058080_TE_M1DP__;!!Mih3wA!U_bv2KW-ftNMzuDS2SLqJmbTsr0fKqISyBSgQT4t6X0SdZ13ULyTluFK1_NfXHODdxwVHw$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: >>>> Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between >>>> Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky >>>> >>>> Some free e-prints today available at: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!U_bv2KW-ftNMzuDS2SLqJmbTsr0fKqISyBSgQT4t6X0SdZ13ULyTluFK1_NfXHPIaDH02g$ >>>> >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>> Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!U_bv2KW-ftNMzuDS2SLqJmbTsr0fKqISyBSgQT4t6X0SdZ13ULyTluFK1_NfXHOlNntH6A$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 1:00 AM Martin Packer >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no >>>>> universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). >>>> >>>> This happens to be something I?ve been thinking about recently >>>> ? the ?evitability? (avoidability, as opposed to inevitability) >>>> of capitalism. I?ve been reading some of the work of Douglass >>>> North, who won a Nobel prize in economics in 1993 for his >>>> analysis of the role that institutions have played in economic >>>> ?development,? He thought ?he was describing how the West >>>> achieved ?progress? and has been able to ?evolve? further than >>>> other regions, but one can read his work as describing >>>> alternative pathways in the formation of economic systems, >>>> which in the West has led to an imbalance in which profit and >>>> growth have become the only measures of societal and individual >>>> achievement. >>>> >>>> A neat illustration: the NY Times has been publishing >>>> reflections upon an article written 50 years ago by Milton >>>> Friedman titled "The Social Responsibility Of Business Is >>>> to?Increase Its Profits." Friedman wrote: >>>> >>>> WHEN I hear businessmen speak eloquently about the >>>> ?social?responsibilities of business in a?free?enterprise >>>> system,? I am reminded?of the wonderful line about the >>>> Frenchman who discovered?at, the age of?70 that he had been >>>> speaking prose all his life. The businessmen?believe that >>>> they?are defending free enterprise when they declaim >>>> that?business is not concerned ?merely? with profit?but >>>> also with promoting?desirable ?social? ends; that business >>>> has a ?social conscience? and?takes?seriously its >>>> responsibilities for providing employment,?eliminating >>>> discrimination, avoiding pollution?and whatever else may >>>> be?the catchwords of the contemporary crop of reformers. In >>>> fact they?are?or would be if they or any one else took them >>>> seriously? preaching?pure and unadulterated?socialism. >>>> Businessmen who talk this way are?unwitting puppets of the >>>> intellectual forces that have?been undermining?the basis of >>>> a free society these past decades. >>>> >>>> >>>> It will be hard to find a better statement of the ideology that >>>> has got us all into the current mess. >>>> >>>> On the left, was it with Lenin that capitalism became viewed as >>>> a necessary prerequisite to socialism? For example, as I >>>> understand it after the revolution in Mexico, 1910-1920, the >>>> PRI (Partido Revolucionario Institucional) worked hard to turn >>>> the indigenous peoples into a proletariat. This was the only >>>> way they could imagine societal progress: quickly moving the >>>> country into capitalism so as to achieve socialism. I conclude >>>> that it was not only Stalin who taught this. >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:57 PM, David Kellogg >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> If you click on the link that Henry, and before him John, >>>>> offered, you get the pro-natural-capital side of a debate in >>>>> the pages of the Guardian on whether or not "nature" can be >>>>> valued as capital and whether it is good or bad for nature for >>>>> humans to do this. I think that in CHAT, we are indebted to >>>>> Marx for many things, but surely one debt we would do well not >>>>> to disavow is Marx's insistence (in Critique of the Gotha >>>>> programme and elsewhere) that nature is NOT capital: on the >>>>> contrary, humans and all of their various property forms from >>>>> communism to capitalism must be considered peculiar forms of >>>>> nature. This is a discussion that CHAT needs to have if we are >>>>> going to retain the AT in CHAT. I disagree with Peter Jones on >>>>> many many things, but one thing I heartily agree with him on >>>>> is the idea that Leontiev brings an intensely >>>>> anti-naturalistic view of activity into activity >>>>> theory--humans acting as subjects on passive environments to >>>>> produce beneficial outcomes. >>>>> >>>>> Marx had a better idea: in the Ethnological Notebooks, he >>>>> shows us that capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as >>>>> capital, is no universal stage (contrary to what Stalin >>>>> taught). Western capitalism, with its idea of nature as >>>>> capital, is really? just one extreme variant. In Marx's >>>>> columns on the Sepoy rebellion and the Taiping rebellion, he >>>>> even posits an "Asiantic mode of production" that had >>>>> virtually nothing to do with feudalism. So to say that South >>>>> Korea and Japan are equally capitalist societies is really a >>>>> little like saying that China and the USSR were equally >>>>> non-capitalist. Deus Sive Natura: and neither one is capital. >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>> >>>>> New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: >>>>> Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between >>>>> Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky >>>>> >>>>> Some free e-prints today available at: >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!U_bv2KW-ftNMzuDS2SLqJmbTsr0fKqISyBSgQT4t6X0SdZ13ULyTluFK1_NfXHPIaDH02g$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's >>>>> Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!U_bv2KW-ftNMzuDS2SLqJmbTsr0fKqISyBSgQT4t6X0SdZ13ULyTluFK1_NfXHOlNntH6A$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 3:43 AM HENRY SHONERD >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Martin, John and Andy >>>>> Thanks to Martin for kicking off this topic and John and >>>>> Andy for following up. I has amazed me to find, for me, >>>>> how the RTZ narrative resonates with both Navajo and >>>>> Pueblo narratives here in New Mexico. How evil RTZ ?is, >>>>> but how wonderful the courage of our native peoples! >>>>> >>>>> Chaco Canyon IS a tourist destination here in New Mexico. >>>>> Though there has been no destruction of the site that, >>>>> based on Native American narratives and the efforts of >>>>> archeologists, is architecturally spectacular evidence of >>>>> the pre-Colombian culture from which the present-day >>>>> Pueblos come. What parallels RTZ activities on aboriginal >>>>> lands in Australia is the drilling for gas and oil on >>>>> Navajo lands surrounding Chaco and a rush to buy more >>>>> rights while Trump is in power. There have been protests, >>>>> though nothing as intense and effective as the Standing >>>>> Rock protests to protect water on native lands to our >>>>> north and east from gas and oil predation (the pipeline). >>>>> Standing Rock was LED by Native Americans, many from the >>>>> Navajo, Apache and Pueblo near me. >>>>> >>>>> I just saw yesterday a 30-year-old film that is one of the >>>>> offerings of the Vision Maker Film Festival: Clear Cut. I >>>>> recommend it, or at least a look at the wiki article about >>>>> it. It couldn?t be more timely. It?s messy, where >>>>> contention between environmental and logging interests and >>>>> division WITHIN the native community (traditon vs. jobs) >>>>> leave one stunned. What redeems a messy struggle is >>>>> exactly what Andy says: The aboriginal people of the world >>>>> do it for us! In the same way, when ?our? Pueblos put on >>>>> feasts and invite us in to witness their dances, they do >>>>> it for us. Perhaps you recall the movie ?Koyaniskaatsi?, >>>>> la Hopi word that has been translated as "life out of >>>>> balance". (The Hopis are a Puebloan people, descendants of >>>>> the Chacoan culture. The Navajos and Apaches arrived here >>>>> about the same time as the European colonizers, based on >>>>> linguistic and genetic evidence.) If you live in New >>>>> Mexico, you are around Pueblo people. If you are really >>>>> lucky, and many of us are, you become friends with them >>>>> and they invite you to share their food at the feasts! How >>>>> generous is this? They do it for us. >>>>> >>>>> The RTZ narrative is not only destructive to cultural >>>>> capital, it is implicated in natural capital >>>>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/nov/23/monbiot-natural-capital-wrong-conservation__;!!Mih3wA!U_bv2KW-ftNMzuDS2SLqJmbTsr0fKqISyBSgQT4t6X0SdZ13ULyTluFK1_NfXHMwUEKNBA$ >>>>> ) >>>>> via climate change. (The link here, to a Guardian article >>>>> is available through the first link in John?s post). Here >>>>> again we should look to our native peoples. There is >>>>> credible research that concludes the climate change >>>>> lengthens fire seasons but wrong-headed environmental >>>>> policies make the fires more intense, hence less >>>>> controllable. Add to this the incursion of housing into >>>>> forested areas and the destruction is a doubly >>>>> self-inflicted wound. And hold on for this one for the >>>>> best CHAT connection: Native peoples of this continent >>>>> used to set controlled burns to remove the kind of unburnt >>>>> fuel to avoid such conflagrations. Today some of ?the >>>>> best-trained and most effective firefighters in this >>>>> country are Native Americans. Cultural capital. They do it >>>>> for us, and their example from the past can serve us now. >>>>> Cultural capital. >>>>> >>>>> I believe I have crowed before about New Mexico and our >>>>> Native Americans. Australia has crowing rights as well. >>>>> And, for standing proud, there?s nothing like an anthem. >>>>> The best anthem music I have EVER heard comes from >>>>> Australia: Yothu Yindi What a great project that brings >>>>> together white people and people of color. What great >>>>> creative collaboration. Andy, I am telling you again, >>>>> project is a great unit of analysis, precisely because it >>>>> brings together cognition and affect, because it embodies >>>>> active orientation. In my country, it is pretty well >>>>> agreed that the natives got screwed, across the political >>>>> divide. Black Lives Matter is more complex, but there is >>>>> hope that the question of race is now where LGBTQ issues >>>>> were at the time of the AIDS crisis, in the last century. >>>>> Back then we could never have guessed we would be where we >>>>> are with non-gender-conforming acceptance now. Just >>>>> saying, as much for myself as for anybody else listening. >>>>> >>>>> La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n >>>>> Henry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Er. " *NO *physical markers" >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>> >>>>>> Home Page >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 14/09/2020 11:43 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list before >>>>>>> noticing that John had already responded, and John is >>>>>>> much better informed than me about these matters, and >>>>>>> yet I spoke as if he didn't exist. My apologies. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> These caves are nothing for tourism. They are too remote >>>>>>> and there are others more accessible. I believe the >>>>>>> caves have been under Native Title as a result of a >>>>>>> bitter struggle to protect them by the local people in >>>>>>> the 1990s. This means that RTZ had to get permission >>>>>>> from the PKK people. The lawyers swindled them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In my view, all these sites which are not only part of >>>>>>> Aboriginal heritage (there are places which have *NO >>>>>>> *physical markers of their status but are sacred to the >>>>>>> local people) but self-evidently of *world* heritage. >>>>>>> But I don't think these caves were registered as World >>>>>>> Heritage. I have not heard the discussion about this >>>>>>> (John?). No-one wants to say this, I think, because it >>>>>>> implies that Indigenous values are somehow less >>>>>>> important than human values. For example, under the law >>>>>>> as it stands the PKK Land Council would have a right to >>>>>>> let RTZ destroy the caves and maybe a million dollars or >>>>>>> two in the bank or a new school, would be enough. This >>>>>>> is not a hypothetical. One of the reasons that the >>>>>>> Indigenous people remain impoverished even where they >>>>>>> have Native Title over large areas of land, is that they >>>>>>> live, after all, in a capitalist country and Native >>>>>>> title cannot be sold. It is not a commodity. Therefore >>>>>>> it is not a form of wealth. You can't get a mortgage to >>>>>>> build a house on land you own by Native title.? You >>>>>>> can't sell a block to a farmer so you can buy >>>>>>> agricultural equipment to farm another block. In short, >>>>>>> by blocking the Indigenous people from monetising their >>>>>>> land rights we trap them in poverty. In general, the >>>>>>> indigenous people are happy to forgo tourist income to >>>>>>> protect their sacred sites (e.g. Uluru) and I don't >>>>>>> doubt for an instant, that if they'd been properly >>>>>>> consulted they never would have agreed to the >>>>>>> destruction of the caves. Obviously. But they do have to >>>>>>> have rights to trade with their land. But also the world >>>>>>> needs to keep absolutely unique archaeological sites >>>>>>> pristine and the local people should be supported by >>>>>>> governments to do the work of protecting them on *our* >>>>>>> behalf. Recognising the great cost entailed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Home Page >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>>>>>>> Thanks, John and Andy, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I suppose that I am naive, for this event astonishes me >>>>>>>> in so many different ways. I would have assumed that >>>>>>>> the land title or native title granted to indigenous >>>>>>>> peoples over some territory in Australia would have >>>>>>>> included the?Juuken Gorge caves. I would have assumed >>>>>>>> that these caves were a national cultural heritage >>>>>>>> site, or even a world cultural heritage site. I would >>>>>>>> have assumed that indigenous rights would have more >>>>>>>> importance to the Australian government, and indeed to >>>>>>>> the Australian people. I would have assumed that, while >>>>>>>> mining is apparently of great economic importance to >>>>>>>> the country, the government would have considered the >>>>>>>> economic value of this site for tourism, or simply the >>>>>>>> impact that destroying the caves would have on >>>>>>>> Australia?s reputation. And while I suppose that >>>>>>>> unbridled rapaciousness on the part of an international >>>>>>>> mining company is hardly a surprise, I would have >>>>>>>> thought that Rio Tinto would also have considered the >>>>>>>> negative publicity that their actions would create. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How can we express our displeasure to the various >>>>>>>> parties involved? Are there petitions that one can >>>>>>>> sign? Or Twitter accounts to which one can tweet? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO >>>>>>>> Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if his bonus this year would >>>>>>>> have been A$4.9 million. Perhaps he could donate a few >>>>>>>> years of his salary to establish a foundation that >>>>>>>> could work for indigenous peoples? rights. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> sadly >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps Clark >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves (which I >>>>>>>>> assume you are referring to) is a much more villainous >>>>>>>>> act than was originally portrayed and reflects the >>>>>>>>> venal racism not only of the company but also of the >>>>>>>>> State Government. For those not familiar with this >>>>>>>>> shocking crime, the $80b Anglo Australian mining >>>>>>>>> company which on Sunday 24th of May blew up a site >>>>>>>>> sacred to the Puutu Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) >>>>>>>>> traditional owners and occupied for 46,000 years at >>>>>>>>> least, to extend iron ore mining. "?It?s one of the >>>>>>>>> most sacred sites in the Pilbara region ? we wanted to >>>>>>>>> have that area protected,? PKKP director Burchell >>>>>>>>> Hayes. The traditional owners tried desperately to >>>>>>>>> stop the blast once they became aware it was impending. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there was a >>>>>>>>> misunderstanding" but and, after much outrage, the >>>>>>>>> three members of the executive had their multi million >>>>>>>>> dollar bonuses reduced. It has subsequently emerged >>>>>>>>> that Rio Tinto had contracted lawyers to oppose any >>>>>>>>> injunctions before the crime was committed. The chief >>>>>>>>> executive and two of his underlings have resigned. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The crime was legal and was made possible by State >>>>>>>>> Government laws which are stacked in favour of miners. >>>>>>>>> Assessments of the cultural and environmental >>>>>>>>> significance are made with little investigation and >>>>>>>>> remain in place for decades and have rarely been >>>>>>>>> successfully be challenged. No permission to destroy >>>>>>>>> heritage sites in WA has been refused (and there have >>>>>>>>> been 463 applications). >>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It is not as if we didn?t know that this would happen. >>>>>>>>> Norway's pension fund divested their holdings in Rio >>>>>>>>> Tinto in 2008: "Exclusion of a company from the Fund >>>>>>>>> reflects our unwillingness to run an unacceptable risk >>>>>>>>> of contributing to grossly unethical conduct. The >>>>>>>>> Council on Ethics has concluded that Rio Tinto is >>>>>>>>> directly involved, through its participation in the >>>>>>>>> Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the severe >>>>>>>>> environmental damage caused by that mining operation." >>>>>>>>> ?????Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of Finance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A useful background briefing of indigenous rights in >>>>>>>>> Australia: >>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ?On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, >>>>>>>>> "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>>> on behalf of >>>>>>>>> Martin Packer" >>>>>>>> on behalf of >>>>>>>>> mpacker@cantab.net > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ???Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to?? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ???Martin >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Important Notice: The contents of this email are >>>>>>>>> intended solely for the named addressee and are >>>>>>>>> confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or >>>>>>>>> storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If >>>>>>>>> you have received this email in error, please delete >>>>>>>>> it and any attachments immediately and advise the >>>>>>>>> sender by return email or telephone. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Deakin University does not warrant that this email and >>>>>>>>> any attachments are error or virus free. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200916/59f81a99/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Wed Sep 16 13:03:43 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 15:03:43 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> Message-ID: So capitalism is not *necessary* for socialism to become possible. Why should capitalism then be *sufficient* for socialism to become possible? That is, we seem to be generally agreed that capitalism has not been an inevitable stage of societal evolution, a stepping stone on the way to socialism. A socialist state could, in theory, arise from a pre-industrial society. Capitalism is not necessary. Its existence has been a contingency, an historical accident. Why then should capitalism, where it exists, set the stage for socialism? Do we agree that Marx proposed that the internal contradictions of capitalism would lead to its collapse and to the formation of a socialist society? But perhaps this analysis was wrong. Perhaps capitalism will simply collapse. Its global supply chains will be disrupted. Its access to cheap labor will be cut off. Its ability to make people consume endlessly will run dry. It will simply grind to a halt and fall over. And then societies of the future could arise in parts of the world which have *escaped* capitalism, few and far between though they are. People in a capitalist society like to think it is the most advanced, the most evolved. And the left (oops!) seems largely to agree. But perhaps capitalism will turn out to be merely an evolutionary dead end. Martin > On Sep 15, 2020, at 7:33 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > This letter: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1881/letters/81_03_08.htm__;!!Mih3wA!WoqZAvVV9JHM2zoKn1t0R5diAQoPm1ylNqJgsMmaLxk5HaOfID3CqMBi8r1fscuzIeJjkQ$ is one occasion when Marx makes it clear that he makes no claim for the inevitability of a capitalist stage of social development, only that this was what was actually the case in Europe in his time. Note that Marx's correspondence with Vera Zasulich was published in Russia in 1924, so Vygotsky would have been aware of this. > Andy > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 16/09/2020 1:58 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>> capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). >> >> >> This happens to be something I?ve been thinking about recently ? the ?evitability? (avoidability, as opposed to inevitability) of capitalism. I?ve been reading some of the work of Douglass North, who won a Nobel prize in economics in 1993 for his analysis of the role that institutions have played in economic ?development,? He thought he was describing how the West achieved ?progress? and has been able to ?evolve? further than other regions, but one can read his work as describing alternative pathways in the formation of economic systems, which in the West has led to an imbalance in which profit and growth have become the only measures of societal and individual achievement. >> >> A neat illustration: the NY Times has been publishing reflections upon an article written 50 years ago by Milton Friedman titled "The Social Responsibility Of Business Is to Increase Its Profits." Friedman wrote: >> >> WHEN I hear businessmen speak eloquently about the ?social responsibilities of business in a free?enterprise system,? I am reminded of the wonderful line about the Frenchman who discovered at, the age of 70 that he had been speaking prose all his life. The businessmen believe that they are defending free enterprise when they declaim that business is not concerned ?merely? with profit but also with promoting desirable ?social? ends; that business has a ?social conscience? and takes seriously its responsibilities for providing employment, eliminating discrimination, avoiding pollution and whatever else may be the catchwords of the contemporary crop of reformers. In fact they are?or would be if they or any one else took them seriously? preaching pure and unadulterated socialism. Businessmen who talk this way are unwitting puppets of the intellectual forces that have been undermining the basis of a free society these past decades. >> >> It will be hard to find a better statement of the ideology that has got us all into the current mess. >> >> On the left, was it with Lenin that capitalism became viewed as a necessary prerequisite to socialism? For example, as I understand it after the revolution in Mexico, 1910-1920, the PRI (Partido Revolucionario Institucional) worked hard to turn the indigenous peoples into a proletariat. This was the only way they could imagine societal progress: quickly moving the country into capitalism so as to achieve socialism. I conclude that it was not only Stalin who taught this. >> >> Martin >> >> >>> On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:57 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: >>> >>> If you click on the link that Henry, and before him John, offered, you get the pro-natural-capital side of a debate in the pages of the Guardian on whether or not "nature" can be valued as capital and whether it is good or bad for nature for humans to do this. I think that in CHAT, we are indebted to Marx for many things, but surely one debt we would do well not to disavow is Marx's insistence (in Critique of the Gotha programme and elsewhere) that nature is NOT capital: on the contrary, humans and all of their various property forms from communism to capitalism must be considered peculiar forms of nature. This is a discussion that CHAT needs to have if we are going to retain the AT in CHAT. I disagree with Peter Jones on many many things, but one thing I heartily agree with him on is the idea that Leontiev brings an intensely anti-naturalistic view of activity into activity theory--humans acting as subjects on passive environments to produce beneficial outcomes. >>> >>> Marx had a better idea: in the Ethnological Notebooks, he shows us that capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). Western capitalism, with its idea of nature as capital, is really just one extreme variant. In Marx's columns on the Sepoy rebellion and the Taiping rebellion, he even posits an "Asiantic mode of production" that had virtually nothing to do with feudalism. So to say that South Korea and Japan are equally capitalist societies is really a little like saying that China and the USSR were equally non-capitalist. Deus Sive Natura: and neither one is capital. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: >>> Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky >>> >>> Some free e-prints today available at: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!WoqZAvVV9JHM2zoKn1t0R5diAQoPm1ylNqJgsMmaLxk5HaOfID3CqMBi8r1fscsdQUMWrA$ >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WoqZAvVV9JHM2zoKn1t0R5diAQoPm1ylNqJgsMmaLxk5HaOfID3CqMBi8r1fscvzMknrbw$ >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 3:43 AM HENRY SHONERD > wrote: >>> Martin, John and Andy >>> Thanks to Martin for kicking off this topic and John and Andy for following up. I has amazed me to find, for me, how the RTZ narrative resonates with both Navajo and Pueblo narratives here in New Mexico. How evil RTZ is, but how wonderful the courage of our native peoples! >>> >>> Chaco Canyon IS a tourist destination here in New Mexico. Though there has been no destruction of the site that, based on Native American narratives and the efforts of archeologists, is architecturally spectacular evidence of the pre-Colombian culture from which the present-day Pueblos come. What parallels RTZ activities on aboriginal lands in Australia is the drilling for gas and oil on Navajo lands surrounding Chaco and a rush to buy more rights while Trump is in power. There have been protests, though nothing as intense and effective as the Standing Rock protests to protect water on native lands to our north and east from gas and oil predation (the pipeline). Standing Rock was LED by Native Americans, many from the Navajo, Apache and Pueblo near me. >>> >>> I just saw yesterday a 30-year-old film that is one of the offerings of the Vision Maker Film Festival: Clear Cut. I recommend it, or at least a look at the wiki article about it. It couldn?t be more timely. It?s messy, where contention between environmental and logging interests and division WITHIN the native community (traditon vs. jobs) leave one stunned. What redeems a messy struggle is exactly what Andy says: The aboriginal people of the world do it for us! In the same way, when ?our? Pueblos put on feasts and invite us in to witness their dances, they do it for us. Perhaps you recall the movie ?Koyaniskaatsi?, la Hopi word that has been translated as "life out of balance". (The Hopis are a Puebloan people, descendants of the Chacoan culture. The Navajos and Apaches arrived here about the same time as the European colonizers, based on linguistic and genetic evidence.) If you live in New Mexico, you are around Pueblo people. If you are really lucky, and many of us are, you become friends with them and they invite you to share their food at the feasts! How generous is this? They do it for us. >>> >>> The RTZ narrative is not only destructive to cultural capital, it is implicated in natural capital (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/nov/23/monbiot-natural-capital-wrong-conservation__;!!Mih3wA!WoqZAvVV9JHM2zoKn1t0R5diAQoPm1ylNqJgsMmaLxk5HaOfID3CqMBi8r1fscuEwe73dQ$ ) via climate change. (The link here, to a Guardian article is available through the first link in John?s post). Here again we should look to our native peoples. There is credible research that concludes the climate change lengthens fire seasons but wrong-headed environmental policies make the fires more intense, hence less controllable. Add to this the incursion of housing into forested areas and the destruction is a doubly self-inflicted wound. And hold on for this one for the best CHAT connection: Native peoples of this continent used to set controlled burns to remove the kind of unburnt fuel to avoid such conflagrations. Today some of the best-trained and most effective firefighters in this country are Native Americans. Cultural capital. They do it for us, and their example from the past can serve us now. Cultural capital. >>> >>> I believe I have crowed before about New Mexico and our Native Americans. Australia has crowing rights as well. And, for standing proud, there?s nothing like an anthem. The best anthem music I have EVER heard comes from Australia: Yothu Yindi What a great project that brings together white people and people of color. What great creative collaboration. Andy, I am telling you again, project is a great unit of analysis, precisely because it brings together cognition and affect, because it embodies active orientation. In my country, it is pretty well agreed that the natives got screwed, across the political divide. Black Lives Matter is more complex, but there is hope that the question of race is now where LGBTQ issues were at the time of the AIDS crisis, in the last century. Back then we could never have guessed we would be where we are with non-gender-conforming acceptance now. Just saying, as much for myself as for anybody else listening. >>> >>> La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n >>> Henry >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>>> >>>> Er. " NO physical markers" >>>> >>>> Andy Blunden >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> Home Page >>>> On 14/09/2020 11:43 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>>> Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list before noticing that John had already responded, and John is much better informed than me about these matters, and yet I spoke as if he didn't exist. My apologies. >>>>> >>>>> These caves are nothing for tourism. They are too remote and there are others more accessible. I believe the caves have been under Native Title as a result of a bitter struggle to protect them by the local people in the 1990s. This means that RTZ had to get permission from the PKK people. The lawyers swindled them. >>>>> >>>>> In my view, all these sites which are not only part of Aboriginal heritage (there are places which have NO physical markers of their status but are sacred to the local people) but self-evidently of world heritage. But I don't think these caves were registered as World Heritage. I have not heard the discussion about this (John?). No-one wants to say this, I think, because it implies that Indigenous values are somehow less important than human values. For example, under the law as it stands the PKK Land Council would have a right to let RTZ destroy the caves and maybe a million dollars or two in the bank or a new school, would be enough. This is not a hypothetical. One of the reasons that the Indigenous people remain impoverished even where they have Native Title over large areas of land, is that they live, after all, in a capitalist country and Native title cannot be sold. It is not a commodity. Therefore it is not a form of wealth. You can't get a mortgage to build a house on land you own by Native title. You can't sell a block to a farmer so you can buy agricultural equipment to farm another block. In short, by blocking the Indigenous people from monetising their land rights we trap them in poverty. In general, the indigenous people are happy to forgo tourist income to protect their sacred sites (e.g. Uluru) and I don't doubt for an instant, that if they'd been properly consulted they never would have agreed to the destruction of the caves. Obviously. But they do have to have rights to trade with their land. But also the world needs to keep absolutely unique archaeological sites pristine and the local people should be supported by governments to do the work of protecting them on our behalf. Recognising the great cost entailed. >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> Home Page >>>>> On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>>>>> Thanks, John and Andy, >>>>>> >>>>>> I suppose that I am naive, for this event astonishes me in so many different ways. I would have assumed that the land title or native title granted to indigenous peoples over some territory in Australia would have included the Juuken Gorge caves. I would have assumed that these caves were a national cultural heritage site, or even a world cultural heritage site. I would have assumed that indigenous rights would have more importance to the Australian government, and indeed to the Australian people. I would have assumed that, while mining is apparently of great economic importance to the country, the government would have considered the economic value of this site for tourism, or simply the impact that destroying the caves would have on Australia?s reputation. And while I suppose that unbridled rapaciousness on the part of an international mining company is hardly a surprise, I would have thought that Rio Tinto would also have considered the negative publicity that their actions would create. >>>>>> >>>>>> How can we express our displeasure to the various parties involved? Are there petitions that one can sign? Or Twitter accounts to which one can tweet? >>>>>> >>>>>> I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if his bonus this year would have been A$4.9 million. Perhaps he could donate a few years of his salary to establish a foundation that could work for indigenous peoples? rights. >>>>>> >>>>>> sadly >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps Clark > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves (which I assume you are referring to) is a much more villainous act than was originally portrayed and reflects the venal racism not only of the company but also of the State Government. For those not familiar with this shocking crime, the $80b Anglo Australian mining company which on Sunday 24th of May blew up a site sacred to the Puutu Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) traditional owners and occupied for 46,000 years at least, to extend iron ore mining. "?It?s one of the most sacred sites in the Pilbara region ? we wanted to have that area protected,? PKKP director Burchell Hayes. The traditional owners tried desperately to stop the blast once they became aware it was impending. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there was a misunderstanding" but and, after much outrage, the three members of the executive had their multi million dollar bonuses reduced. It has subsequently emerged that Rio Tinto had contracted lawyers to oppose any injunctions before the crime was committed. The chief executive and two of his underlings have resigned. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The crime was legal and was made possible by State Government laws which are stacked in favour of miners. Assessments of the cultural and environmental significance are made with little investigation and remain in place for decades and have rarely been successfully be challenged. No permission to destroy heritage sites in WA has been refused (and there have been 463 applications). https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is not as if we didn?t know that this would happen. Norway's pension fund divested their holdings in Rio Tinto in 2008: "Exclusion of a company from the Fund reflects our unwillingness to run an unacceptable risk of contributing to grossly unethical conduct. The Council on Ethics has concluded that Rio Tinto is directly involved, through its participation in the Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the severe environmental damage caused by that mining operation." >>>>>>> ??Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of Finance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A useful background briefing of indigenous rights in Australia: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ?On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin Packer" on behalf of mpacker@cantab.net > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to?? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for the named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise the sender by return email or telephone. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments are error or virus free. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200916/0c7c1377/attachment-0001.html From andyb@marxists.org Wed Sep 16 17:40:16 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 10:40:16 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> Message-ID: As our Chief Health Officer repeatedly says, "Data beats models every time." Capitalism is a world system now. The question of whether, in the mid-18th century, capitalism was inevitable is a moot point. From a political and philosophical point of view, of course it wasn't. But the data is now in. Marx's approach was always *critique of existing social conditions*, never speculation about the future or inevitable stages or laws of history. In his private correspondence with friends Marx betrayed his humanness, his ever expecting the Revolution tomorrow. But in public scientific writing he never did this. Please show me where Marx wrote "that the internal contradictions of capitalism would lead to its collapse and to the formation of a socialist society." I like to make the point that in the /Communist Manifesto/ Marx has almost nothing to say about what the working class would do if it were to seize state power. The programmatic points here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm*133__;Iw!!Mih3wA!VI6OKP653eKBHQuLkU5jb-3mX0EoA0ESANdgXr_cE1S37_hJHXb672Lyz_nPuJc0xHTjng$ are as far as he went. After the Paris Commune, he was able to /see/ what the workers' movement actually strived to do: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/preface.htm*preface-1872__;Iw!!Mih3wA!VI6OKP653eKBHQuLkU5jb-3mX0EoA0ESANdgXr_cE1S37_hJHXb672Lyz_nPuJeJTcO-TA$ and you can clearly see how these progammatic points were intended as a political program, subject to continual revision. Not any declaration of historical necessity, Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 17/09/2020 6:03 am, Martin Packer wrote: > So capitalism is not *necessary* for socialism to become > possible. Why should capitalism then be *sufficient* for > socialism to become possible? > > That is, we seem to be generally agreed that capitalism > has not been an inevitable stage of societal evolution, a > stepping stone on the way to socialism. A socialist state > could, in theory, arise from a pre-industrial society. > Capitalism is not necessary. Its existence has been a > contingency, an historical accident. > > Why then should capitalism, where it exists, set the stage > for socialism? Do we agree that Marx proposed that the > internal contradictions of capitalism would lead to its > collapse and to the formation of a socialist society? But > perhaps this analysis was wrong. Perhaps capitalism will > simply collapse. Its global supply chains will be > disrupted. Its access to cheap labor will be cut off. Its > ability to make people consume endlessly will run dry. It > will simply grind to a halt and fall over. > > And then societies of the future could arise in parts of > the world which have *escaped* capitalism, few and far > between though they are. > > People in a capitalist society like to think it is the > most advanced, the most evolved. And the left (oops!) > seems largely to agree. But perhaps capitalism will turn > out to be merely an evolutionary dead end. > > Martin > > > > >> On Sep 15, 2020, at 7:33 PM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >> >> This letter: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1881/letters/81_03_08.htm__;!!Mih3wA!VI6OKP653eKBHQuLkU5jb-3mX0EoA0ESANdgXr_cE1S37_hJHXb672Lyz_nPuJcEhkX2lA$ >> >> is one occasion when Marx makes it clear that he makes no >> claim for the inevitability of a capitalist stage of >> social development, only that this was what was actually >> the case in Europe in his time. Note that Marx's >> correspondence with Vera Zasulich was published in Russia >> in 1924, so Vygotsky would have been aware of this. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 16/09/2020 1:58 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>>> capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is >>>> no universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). >>> >>> This happens to be something I?ve been thinking about >>> recently ? the ?evitability? (avoidability, as opposed >>> to inevitability) of capitalism. I?ve been reading some >>> of the work of Douglass North, who won a Nobel prize in >>> economics in 1993 for his analysis of the role that >>> institutions have played in economic ?development,? He >>> thought ?he was describing how the West achieved >>> ?progress? and has been able to ?evolve? further than >>> other regions, but one can read his work as describing >>> alternative pathways in the formation of economic >>> systems, which in the West has led to an imbalance in >>> which profit and growth have become the only measures of >>> societal and individual achievement. >>> >>> A neat illustration: the NY Times has been publishing >>> reflections upon an article written 50 years ago by >>> Milton Friedman titled "The Social Responsibility Of >>> Business Is to?Increase Its Profits." Friedman wrote: >>> >>> WHEN I hear businessmen speak eloquently about the >>> ?social?responsibilities of business in >>> a?free?enterprise system,? I am reminded?of the >>> wonderful line about the Frenchman who >>> discovered?at, the age of?70 that he had been >>> speaking prose all his life. The businessmen?believe >>> that they?are defending free enterprise when they >>> declaim that?business is not concerned ?merely? with >>> profit?but also with promoting?desirable ?social? >>> ends; that business has a ?social conscience? >>> and?takes?seriously its responsibilities for >>> providing employment,?eliminating discrimination, >>> avoiding pollution?and whatever else may be?the >>> catchwords of the contemporary crop of reformers. In >>> fact they?are?or would be if they or any one else >>> took them seriously? preaching?pure and >>> unadulterated?socialism. Businessmen who talk this >>> way are?unwitting puppets of the intellectual forces >>> that have?been undermining?the basis of a free >>> society these past decades. >>> >>> >>> It will be hard to find a better statement of the >>> ideology that has got us all into the current mess. >>> >>> On the left, was it with Lenin that capitalism became >>> viewed as a necessary prerequisite to socialism? For >>> example, as I understand it after the revolution in >>> Mexico, 1910-1920, the PRI (Partido Revolucionario >>> Institucional) worked hard to turn the indigenous >>> peoples into a proletariat. This was the only way they >>> could imagine societal progress: quickly moving the >>> country into capitalism so as to achieve socialism. I >>> conclude that it was not only Stalin who taught this. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>>> On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:57 PM, David Kellogg >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> If you click on the link that Henry, and before him >>>> John, offered, you get the pro-natural-capital side of >>>> a debate in the pages of the Guardian on whether or not >>>> "nature" can be valued as capital and whether it is >>>> good or bad for nature for humans to do this. I think >>>> that in CHAT, we are indebted to Marx for many things, >>>> but surely one debt we would do well not to disavow is >>>> Marx's insistence (in Critique of the Gotha programme >>>> and elsewhere) that nature is NOT capital: on the >>>> contrary, humans and all of their various property >>>> forms from communism to capitalism must be considered >>>> peculiar forms of nature. This is a discussion that >>>> CHAT needs to have if we are going to retain the AT in >>>> CHAT. I disagree with Peter Jones on many many things, >>>> but one thing I heartily agree with him on is the idea >>>> that Leontiev brings an intensely anti-naturalistic >>>> view of activity into activity theory--humans acting as >>>> subjects on passive environments to produce beneficial >>>> outcomes. >>>> >>>> Marx had a better idea: in the Ethnological Notebooks, >>>> he shows us that capitalism, and hence the idea of >>>> nature as capital, is no universal stage (contrary to >>>> what Stalin taught). Western capitalism, with its idea >>>> of nature as capital, is really just one extreme >>>> variant. In Marx's columns on the Sepoy rebellion and >>>> the Taiping rebellion, he even posits an "Asiantic mode >>>> of production" that had virtually nothing to do with >>>> feudalism. So to say that South Korea and Japan are >>>> equally capitalist societies is really a little like >>>> saying that China and the USSR were equally >>>> non-capitalist. Deus Sive Natura: and neither one is >>>> capital. >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: >>>> Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and >>>> between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky >>>> >>>> Some free e-prints today available at: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!VI6OKP653eKBHQuLkU5jb-3mX0EoA0ESANdgXr_cE1S37_hJHXb672Lyz_nPuJdFgTWX_w$ >>>> >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's >>>> Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VI6OKP653eKBHQuLkU5jb-3mX0EoA0ESANdgXr_cE1S37_hJHXb672Lyz_nPuJechS_H3A$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 3:43 AM HENRY SHONERD >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Martin, John and Andy >>>> Thanks to Martin for kicking off this topic and >>>> John and Andy for following up. I has amazed me to >>>> find, for me, how the RTZ narrative resonates with >>>> both Navajo and Pueblo narratives here in New >>>> Mexico. How evil RTZ ?is, but how wonderful the >>>> courage of our native peoples! >>>> >>>> Chaco Canyon IS a tourist destination here in New >>>> Mexico. Though there has been no destruction of the >>>> site that, based on Native American narratives and >>>> the efforts of archeologists, is architecturally >>>> spectacular evidence of the pre-Colombian culture >>>> from which the present-day Pueblos come. What >>>> parallels RTZ activities on aboriginal lands in >>>> Australia is the drilling for gas and oil on Navajo >>>> lands surrounding Chaco and a rush to buy more >>>> rights while Trump is in power. There have been >>>> protests, though nothing as intense and effective >>>> as the Standing Rock protests to protect water on >>>> native lands to our north and east from gas and oil >>>> predation (the pipeline). Standing Rock was LED by >>>> Native Americans, many from the Navajo, Apache and >>>> Pueblo near me. >>>> >>>> I just saw yesterday a 30-year-old film that is one >>>> of the offerings of the Vision Maker Film Festival: >>>> Clear Cut. I recommend it, or at least a look at >>>> the wiki article about it. It couldn?t be more >>>> timely. It?s messy, where contention between >>>> environmental and logging interests and division >>>> WITHIN the native community (traditon vs. jobs) >>>> leave one stunned. What redeems a messy struggle is >>>> exactly what Andy says: The aboriginal people of >>>> the world do it for us! In the same way, when ?our? >>>> Pueblos put on feasts and invite us in to witness >>>> their dances, they do it for us. Perhaps you recall >>>> the movie ?Koyaniskaatsi?, la Hopi word that has >>>> been translated as "life out of balance". (The >>>> Hopis are a Puebloan people, descendants of the >>>> Chacoan culture. The Navajos and Apaches arrived >>>> here about the same time as the European >>>> colonizers, based on linguistic and genetic >>>> evidence.) If you live in New Mexico, you are >>>> around Pueblo people. If you are really lucky, and >>>> many of us are, you become friends with them and >>>> they invite you to share their food at the feasts! >>>> How generous is this? They do it for us. >>>> >>>> The RTZ narrative is not only destructive to >>>> cultural capital, it is implicated in natural >>>> capital >>>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/nov/23/monbiot-natural-capital-wrong-conservation__;!!Mih3wA!VI6OKP653eKBHQuLkU5jb-3mX0EoA0ESANdgXr_cE1S37_hJHXb672Lyz_nPuJeyXsWHug$ >>>> ) >>>> via climate change. (The link here, to a Guardian >>>> article is available through the first link in >>>> John?s post). Here again we should look to our >>>> native peoples. There is credible research that >>>> concludes the climate change lengthens fire seasons >>>> but wrong-headed environmental policies make the >>>> fires more intense, hence less controllable. Add to >>>> this the incursion of housing into forested areas >>>> and the destruction is a doubly self-inflicted >>>> wound. And hold on for this one for the best CHAT >>>> connection: Native peoples of this continent used >>>> to set controlled burns to remove the kind of >>>> unburnt fuel to avoid such conflagrations. Today >>>> some of ?the best-trained and most effective >>>> firefighters in this country are Native Americans. >>>> Cultural capital. They do it for us, and their >>>> example from the past can serve us now. Cultural >>>> capital. >>>> >>>> I believe I have crowed before about New Mexico and >>>> our Native Americans. Australia has crowing rights >>>> as well. And, for standing proud, there?s nothing >>>> like an anthem. The best anthem music I have EVER >>>> heard comes from Australia: Yothu Yindi What a >>>> great project that brings together white people and >>>> people of color. What great creative collaboration. >>>> Andy, I am telling you again, project is a great >>>> unit of analysis, precisely because it brings >>>> together cognition and affect, because it embodies >>>> active orientation. In my country, it is pretty >>>> well agreed that the natives got screwed, across >>>> the political divide. Black Lives Matter is more >>>> complex, but there is hope that the question of >>>> race is now where LGBTQ issues were at the time of >>>> the AIDS crisis, in the last century. Back then we >>>> could never have guessed we would be where we are >>>> with non-gender-conforming acceptance now. Just >>>> saying, as much for myself as for anybody else >>>> listening. >>>> >>>> La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>> > >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Er. " *NO *physical markers" >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> >>>>> Home Page >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 14/09/2020 11:43 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list before >>>>>> noticing that John had already responded, and >>>>>> John is much better informed than me about these >>>>>> matters, and yet I spoke as if he didn't exist. >>>>>> My apologies. >>>>>> >>>>>> These caves are nothing for tourism. They are too >>>>>> remote and there are others more accessible. I >>>>>> believe the caves have been under Native Title as >>>>>> a result of a bitter struggle to protect them by >>>>>> the local people in the 1990s. This means that >>>>>> RTZ had to get permission from the PKK people. >>>>>> The lawyers swindled them. >>>>>> >>>>>> In my view, all these sites which are not only >>>>>> part of Aboriginal heritage (there are places >>>>>> which have *NO *physical markers of their status >>>>>> but are sacred to the local people) but >>>>>> self-evidently of *world* heritage. But I don't >>>>>> think these caves were registered as World >>>>>> Heritage. I have not heard the discussion about >>>>>> this (John?). No-one wants to say this, I think, >>>>>> because it implies that Indigenous values are >>>>>> somehow less important than human values. For >>>>>> example, under the law as it stands the PKK Land >>>>>> Council would have a right to let RTZ destroy the >>>>>> caves and maybe a million dollars or two in the >>>>>> bank or a new school, would be enough. This is >>>>>> not a hypothetical. One of the reasons that the >>>>>> Indigenous people remain impoverished even where >>>>>> they have Native Title over large areas of land, >>>>>> is that they live, after all, in a capitalist >>>>>> country and Native title cannot be sold. It is >>>>>> not a commodity. Therefore it is not a form of >>>>>> wealth. You can't get a mortgage to build a house >>>>>> on land you own by Native title.? You can't sell >>>>>> a block to a farmer so you can buy agricultural >>>>>> equipment to farm another block. In short, by >>>>>> blocking the Indigenous people from monetising >>>>>> their land rights we trap them in poverty. In >>>>>> general, the indigenous people are happy to forgo >>>>>> tourist income to protect their sacred sites >>>>>> (e.g. Uluru) and I don't doubt for an instant, >>>>>> that if they'd been properly consulted they never >>>>>> would have agreed to the destruction of the >>>>>> caves. Obviously. But they do have to have rights >>>>>> to trade with their land. But also the world >>>>>> needs to keep absolutely unique archaeological >>>>>> sites pristine and the local people should be >>>>>> supported by governments to do the work of >>>>>> protecting them on *our* behalf. Recognising the >>>>>> great cost entailed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>> >>>>>> Home Page >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>>>>>> Thanks, John and Andy, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I suppose that I am naive, for this event >>>>>>> astonishes me in so many different ways. I would >>>>>>> have assumed that the land title or native title >>>>>>> granted to indigenous peoples over some >>>>>>> territory in Australia would have included >>>>>>> the?Juuken Gorge caves. I would have assumed >>>>>>> that these caves were a national cultural >>>>>>> heritage site, or even a world cultural heritage >>>>>>> site. I would have assumed that indigenous >>>>>>> rights would have more importance to the >>>>>>> Australian government, and indeed to the >>>>>>> Australian people. I would have assumed that, >>>>>>> while mining is apparently of great economic >>>>>>> importance to the country, the government would >>>>>>> have considered the economic value of this site >>>>>>> for tourism, or simply the impact that >>>>>>> destroying the caves would have on Australia?s >>>>>>> reputation. And while I suppose that unbridled >>>>>>> rapaciousness on the part of an international >>>>>>> mining company is hardly a surprise, I would >>>>>>> have thought that Rio Tinto would also have >>>>>>> considered the negative publicity that their >>>>>>> actions would create. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How can we express our displeasure to the >>>>>>> various parties involved? Are there petitions >>>>>>> that one can sign? Or Twitter accounts to which >>>>>>> one can tweet? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO >>>>>>> Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if his bonus this year >>>>>>> would have been A$4.9 million. Perhaps he could >>>>>>> donate a few years of his salary to establish a >>>>>>> foundation that could work for indigenous >>>>>>> peoples? rights. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> sadly >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps Clark >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves >>>>>>>> (which I assume you are referring to) is a much >>>>>>>> more villainous act than was originally >>>>>>>> portrayed and reflects the venal racism not >>>>>>>> only of the company but also of the State >>>>>>>> Government. For those not familiar with this >>>>>>>> shocking crime, the $80b Anglo Australian >>>>>>>> mining company which on Sunday 24th of May blew >>>>>>>> up a site sacred to the Puutu Kunti Kurrama and >>>>>>>> Pinikura (PKKP) traditional owners and occupied >>>>>>>> for 46,000 years at least, to extend iron ore >>>>>>>> mining. "?It?s one of the most sacred sites in >>>>>>>> the Pilbara region ? we wanted to have that >>>>>>>> area protected,? PKKP director Burchell Hayes. >>>>>>>> The traditional owners tried desperately to >>>>>>>> stop the blast once they became aware it was >>>>>>>> impending. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there >>>>>>>> was a misunderstanding" but and, after much >>>>>>>> outrage, the three members of the executive had >>>>>>>> their multi million dollar bonuses reduced. It >>>>>>>> has subsequently emerged that Rio Tinto had >>>>>>>> contracted lawyers to oppose any injunctions >>>>>>>> before the crime was committed. The chief >>>>>>>> executive and two of his underlings have resigned. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The crime was legal and was made possible by >>>>>>>> State Government laws which are stacked in >>>>>>>> favour of miners. Assessments of the cultural >>>>>>>> and environmental significance are made with >>>>>>>> little investigation and remain in place for >>>>>>>> decades and have rarely been successfully be >>>>>>>> challenged. No permission to destroy heritage >>>>>>>> sites in WA has been refused (and there have >>>>>>>> been 463 applications). >>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is not as if we didn?t know that this would >>>>>>>> happen. Norway's pension fund divested their >>>>>>>> holdings in Rio Tinto in 2008: "Exclusion of a >>>>>>>> company from the Fund reflects our >>>>>>>> unwillingness to run an unacceptable risk of >>>>>>>> contributing to grossly unethical conduct. The >>>>>>>> Council on Ethics has concluded that Rio Tinto >>>>>>>> is directly involved, through its participation >>>>>>>> in the Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the >>>>>>>> severe environmental damage caused by that >>>>>>>> mining operation." >>>>>>>> ?????Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of >>>>>>>> Finance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A useful background briefing of indigenous >>>>>>>> rights in Australia: >>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ?On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, >>>>>>>> "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> behalf of Martin Packer" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> behalf of mpacker@cantab.net >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ???Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been >>>>>>>> up to?? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ???Martin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Important Notice: The contents of this email >>>>>>>> are intended solely for the named addressee and >>>>>>>> are confidential; any unauthorised use, >>>>>>>> reproduction or storage of the contents is >>>>>>>> expressly prohibited. If you have received this >>>>>>>> email in error, please delete it and any >>>>>>>> attachments immediately and advise the sender >>>>>>>> by return email or telephone. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Deakin University does not warrant that this >>>>>>>> email and any attachments are error or virus free. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200917/30fb3681/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Wed Sep 16 18:22:06 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 20:22:06 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> Message-ID: So capitalism is the way of the whole world. And yet not even capitalism can lead us to socialism. We are doomed! But at least we figured out what?s left and what?s right. Martin > On Sep 16, 2020, at 7:40 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > As our Chief Health Officer repeatedly says, "Data beats models every time." Capitalism is a world system now. The question of whether, in the mid-18th century, capitalism was inevitable is a moot point. From a political and philosophical point of view, of course it wasn't. But the data is now in. > Marx's approach was always critique of existing social conditions, never speculation about the future or inevitable stages or laws of history. In his private correspondence with friends Marx betrayed his humanness, his ever expecting the Revolution tomorrow. But in public scientific writing he never did this. Please show me where Marx wrote "that the internal contradictions of capitalism would lead to its collapse and to the formation of a socialist society." > > I like to make the point that in the Communist Manifesto Marx has almost nothing to say about what the working class would do if it were to seize state power. The programmatic points here:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm*133__;Iw!!Mih3wA!UjS9bSAeADG3tE2_vnLP-wJoCoaMqB2KYfD5GKHwDv7SH_vbEoc4BKjGUHttayR-uM7VeA$ are as far as he went. After the Paris Commune, he was able to see what the workers' movement actually strived to do: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/preface.htm*preface-1872__;Iw!!Mih3wA!UjS9bSAeADG3tE2_vnLP-wJoCoaMqB2KYfD5GKHwDv7SH_vbEoc4BKjGUHttayT_n1h9lw$ and you can clearly see how these progammatic points were intended as a political program, subject to continual revision. Not any declaration of historical necessity, > Andy > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 17/09/2020 6:03 am, Martin Packer wrote: >> So capitalism is not *necessary* for socialism to become possible. Why should capitalism then be *sufficient* for socialism to become possible? >> >> That is, we seem to be generally agreed that capitalism has not been an inevitable stage of societal evolution, a stepping stone on the way to socialism. A socialist state could, in theory, arise from a pre-industrial society. Capitalism is not necessary. Its existence has been a contingency, an historical accident. >> >> Why then should capitalism, where it exists, set the stage for socialism? Do we agree that Marx proposed that the internal contradictions of capitalism would lead to its collapse and to the formation of a socialist society? But perhaps this analysis was wrong. Perhaps capitalism will simply collapse. Its global supply chains will be disrupted. Its access to cheap labor will be cut off. Its ability to make people consume endlessly will run dry. It will simply grind to a halt and fall over. >> >> And then societies of the future could arise in parts of the world which have *escaped* capitalism, few and far between though they are. >> >> People in a capitalist society like to think it is the most advanced, the most evolved. And the left (oops!) seems largely to agree. But perhaps capitalism will turn out to be merely an evolutionary dead end. >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >>> On Sep 15, 2020, at 7:33 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>> >>> This letter: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1881/letters/81_03_08.htm__;!!Mih3wA!UjS9bSAeADG3tE2_vnLP-wJoCoaMqB2KYfD5GKHwDv7SH_vbEoc4BKjGUHttayQETlxYkw$ is one occasion when Marx makes it clear that he makes no claim for the inevitability of a capitalist stage of social development, only that this was what was actually the case in Europe in his time. Note that Marx's correspondence with Vera Zasulich was published in Russia in 1924, so Vygotsky would have been aware of this. >>> Andy >>> Andy Blunden >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> Home Page >>> On 16/09/2020 1:58 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>>>> capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). >>>> >>>> >>>> This happens to be something I?ve been thinking about recently ? the ?evitability? (avoidability, as opposed to inevitability) of capitalism. I?ve been reading some of the work of Douglass North, who won a Nobel prize in economics in 1993 for his analysis of the role that institutions have played in economic ?development,? He thought he was describing how the West achieved ?progress? and has been able to ?evolve? further than other regions, but one can read his work as describing alternative pathways in the formation of economic systems, which in the West has led to an imbalance in which profit and growth have become the only measures of societal and individual achievement. >>>> >>>> A neat illustration: the NY Times has been publishing reflections upon an article written 50 years ago by Milton Friedman titled "The Social Responsibility Of Business Is to Increase Its Profits." Friedman wrote: >>>> >>>> WHEN I hear businessmen speak eloquently about the ?social responsibilities of business in a free?enterprise system,? I am reminded of the wonderful line about the Frenchman who discovered at, the age of 70 that he had been speaking prose all his life. The businessmen believe that they are defending free enterprise when they declaim that business is not concerned ?merely? with profit but also with promoting desirable ?social? ends; that business has a ?social conscience? and takes seriously its responsibilities for providing employment, eliminating discrimination, avoiding pollution and whatever else may be the catchwords of the contemporary crop of reformers. In fact they are?or would be if they or any one else took them seriously? preaching pure and unadulterated socialism. Businessmen who talk this way are unwitting puppets of the intellectual forces that have been undermining the basis of a free society these past decades. >>>> >>>> It will be hard to find a better statement of the ideology that has got us all into the current mess. >>>> >>>> On the left, was it with Lenin that capitalism became viewed as a necessary prerequisite to socialism? For example, as I understand it after the revolution in Mexico, 1910-1920, the PRI (Partido Revolucionario Institucional) worked hard to turn the indigenous peoples into a proletariat. This was the only way they could imagine societal progress: quickly moving the country into capitalism so as to achieve socialism. I conclude that it was not only Stalin who taught this. >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:57 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> If you click on the link that Henry, and before him John, offered, you get the pro-natural-capital side of a debate in the pages of the Guardian on whether or not "nature" can be valued as capital and whether it is good or bad for nature for humans to do this. I think that in CHAT, we are indebted to Marx for many things, but surely one debt we would do well not to disavow is Marx's insistence (in Critique of the Gotha programme and elsewhere) that nature is NOT capital: on the contrary, humans and all of their various property forms from communism to capitalism must be considered peculiar forms of nature. This is a discussion that CHAT needs to have if we are going to retain the AT in CHAT. I disagree with Peter Jones on many many things, but one thing I heartily agree with him on is the idea that Leontiev brings an intensely anti-naturalistic view of activity into activity theory--humans acting as subjects on passive environments to produce beneficial outcomes. >>>>> >>>>> Marx had a better idea: in the Ethnological Notebooks, he shows us that capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). Western capitalism, with its idea of nature as capital, is really just one extreme variant. In Marx's columns on the Sepoy rebellion and the Taiping rebellion, he even posits an "Asiantic mode of production" that had virtually nothing to do with feudalism. So to say that South Korea and Japan are equally capitalist societies is really a little like saying that China and the USSR were equally non-capitalist. Deus Sive Natura: and neither one is capital. >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>> >>>>> New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: >>>>> Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky >>>>> >>>>> Some free e-prints today available at: >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!UjS9bSAeADG3tE2_vnLP-wJoCoaMqB2KYfD5GKHwDv7SH_vbEoc4BKjGUHttaySxz2E9kA$ >>>>> >>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UjS9bSAeADG3tE2_vnLP-wJoCoaMqB2KYfD5GKHwDv7SH_vbEoc4BKjGUHttaySih8dgAw$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 3:43 AM HENRY SHONERD > wrote: >>>>> Martin, John and Andy >>>>> Thanks to Martin for kicking off this topic and John and Andy for following up. I has amazed me to find, for me, how the RTZ narrative resonates with both Navajo and Pueblo narratives here in New Mexico. How evil RTZ is, but how wonderful the courage of our native peoples! >>>>> >>>>> Chaco Canyon IS a tourist destination here in New Mexico. Though there has been no destruction of the site that, based on Native American narratives and the efforts of archeologists, is architecturally spectacular evidence of the pre-Colombian culture from which the present-day Pueblos come. What parallels RTZ activities on aboriginal lands in Australia is the drilling for gas and oil on Navajo lands surrounding Chaco and a rush to buy more rights while Trump is in power. There have been protests, though nothing as intense and effective as the Standing Rock protests to protect water on native lands to our north and east from gas and oil predation (the pipeline). Standing Rock was LED by Native Americans, many from the Navajo, Apache and Pueblo near me. >>>>> >>>>> I just saw yesterday a 30-year-old film that is one of the offerings of the Vision Maker Film Festival: Clear Cut. I recommend it, or at least a look at the wiki article about it. It couldn?t be more timely. It?s messy, where contention between environmental and logging interests and division WITHIN the native community (traditon vs. jobs) leave one stunned. What redeems a messy struggle is exactly what Andy says: The aboriginal people of the world do it for us! In the same way, when ?our? Pueblos put on feasts and invite us in to witness their dances, they do it for us. Perhaps you recall the movie ?Koyaniskaatsi?, la Hopi word that has been translated as "life out of balance". (The Hopis are a Puebloan people, descendants of the Chacoan culture. The Navajos and Apaches arrived here about the same time as the European colonizers, based on linguistic and genetic evidence.) If you live in New Mexico, you are around Pueblo people. If you are really lucky, and many of us are, you become friends with them and they invite you to share their food at the feasts! How generous is this? They do it for us. >>>>> >>>>> The RTZ narrative is not only destructive to cultural capital, it is implicated in natural capital (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/nov/23/monbiot-natural-capital-wrong-conservation__;!!Mih3wA!UjS9bSAeADG3tE2_vnLP-wJoCoaMqB2KYfD5GKHwDv7SH_vbEoc4BKjGUHttayQcedkuxQ$ ) via climate change. (The link here, to a Guardian article is available through the first link in John?s post). Here again we should look to our native peoples. There is credible research that concludes the climate change lengthens fire seasons but wrong-headed environmental policies make the fires more intense, hence less controllable. Add to this the incursion of housing into forested areas and the destruction is a doubly self-inflicted wound. And hold on for this one for the best CHAT connection: Native peoples of this continent used to set controlled burns to remove the kind of unburnt fuel to avoid such conflagrations. Today some of the best-trained and most effective firefighters in this country are Native Americans. Cultural capital. They do it for us, and their example from the past can serve us now. Cultural capital. >>>>> >>>>> I believe I have crowed before about New Mexico and our Native Americans. Australia has crowing rights as well. And, for standing proud, there?s nothing like an anthem. The best anthem music I have EVER heard comes from Australia: Yothu Yindi What a great project that brings together white people and people of color. What great creative collaboration. Andy, I am telling you again, project is a great unit of analysis, precisely because it brings together cognition and affect, because it embodies active orientation. In my country, it is pretty well agreed that the natives got screwed, across the political divide. Black Lives Matter is more complex, but there is hope that the question of race is now where LGBTQ issues were at the time of the AIDS crisis, in the last century. Back then we could never have guessed we would be where we are with non-gender-conforming acceptance now. Just saying, as much for myself as for anybody else listening. >>>>> >>>>> La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n >>>>> Henry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Er. " NO physical markers" >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>> Home Page >>>>>> On 14/09/2020 11:43 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>>>>> Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list before noticing that John had already responded, and John is much better informed than me about these matters, and yet I spoke as if he didn't exist. My apologies. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> These caves are nothing for tourism. They are too remote and there are others more accessible. I believe the caves have been under Native Title as a result of a bitter struggle to protect them by the local people in the 1990s. This means that RTZ had to get permission from the PKK people. The lawyers swindled them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In my view, all these sites which are not only part of Aboriginal heritage (there are places which have NO physical markers of their status but are sacred to the local people) but self-evidently of world heritage. But I don't think these caves were registered as World Heritage. I have not heard the discussion about this (John?). No-one wants to say this, I think, because it implies that Indigenous values are somehow less important than human values. For example, under the law as it stands the PKK Land Council would have a right to let RTZ destroy the caves and maybe a million dollars or two in the bank or a new school, would be enough. This is not a hypothetical. One of the reasons that the Indigenous people remain impoverished even where they have Native Title over large areas of land, is that they live, after all, in a capitalist country and Native title cannot be sold. It is not a commodity. Therefore it is not a form of wealth. You can't get a mortgage to build a house on land you own by Native title. You can't sell a block to a farmer so you can buy agricultural equipment to farm another block. In short, by blocking the Indigenous people from monetising their land rights we trap them in poverty. In general, the indigenous people are happy to forgo tourist income to protect their sacred sites (e.g. Uluru) and I don't doubt for an instant, that if they'd been properly consulted they never would have agreed to the destruction of the caves. Obviously. But they do have to have rights to trade with their land. But also the world needs to keep absolutely unique archaeological sites pristine and the local people should be supported by governments to do the work of protecting them on our behalf. Recognising the great cost entailed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>>> Home Page >>>>>>> On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>>>>>>> Thanks, John and Andy, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I suppose that I am naive, for this event astonishes me in so many different ways. I would have assumed that the land title or native title granted to indigenous peoples over some territory in Australia would have included the Juuken Gorge caves. I would have assumed that these caves were a national cultural heritage site, or even a world cultural heritage site. I would have assumed that indigenous rights would have more importance to the Australian government, and indeed to the Australian people. I would have assumed that, while mining is apparently of great economic importance to the country, the government would have considered the economic value of this site for tourism, or simply the impact that destroying the caves would have on Australia?s reputation. And while I suppose that unbridled rapaciousness on the part of an international mining company is hardly a surprise, I would have thought that Rio Tinto would also have considered the negative publicity that their actions would create. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How can we express our displeasure to the various parties involved? Are there petitions that one can sign? Or Twitter accounts to which one can tweet? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if his bonus this year would have been A$4.9 million. Perhaps he could donate a few years of his salary to establish a foundation that could work for indigenous peoples? rights. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> sadly >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps Clark > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves (which I assume you are referring to) is a much more villainous act than was originally portrayed and reflects the venal racism not only of the company but also of the State Government. For those not familiar with this shocking crime, the $80b Anglo Australian mining company which on Sunday 24th of May blew up a site sacred to the Puutu Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) traditional owners and occupied for 46,000 years at least, to extend iron ore mining. "?It?s one of the most sacred sites in the Pilbara region ? we wanted to have that area protected,? PKKP director Burchell Hayes. The traditional owners tried desperately to stop the blast once they became aware it was impending. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there was a misunderstanding" but and, after much outrage, the three members of the executive had their multi million dollar bonuses reduced. It has subsequently emerged that Rio Tinto had contracted lawyers to oppose any injunctions before the crime was committed. The chief executive and two of his underlings have resigned. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The crime was legal and was made possible by State Government laws which are stacked in favour of miners. Assessments of the cultural and environmental significance are made with little investigation and remain in place for decades and have rarely been successfully be challenged. No permission to destroy heritage sites in WA has been refused (and there have been 463 applications).https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It is not as if we didn?t know that this would happen. Norway's pension fund divested their holdings in Rio Tinto in 2008: "Exclusion of a company from the Fund reflects our unwillingness to run an unacceptable risk of contributing to grossly unethical conduct. The Council on Ethics has concluded that Rio Tinto is directly involved, through its participation in the Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the severe environmental damage caused by that mining operation." >>>>>>>>> ??Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of Finance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A useful background briefing of indigenous rights in Australia: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ?On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin Packer" on behalf of mpacker@cantab.net > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to?? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for the named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise the sender by return email or telephone. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments are error or virus free. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200916/a22c8a27/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Wed Sep 16 19:09:09 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 12:09:09 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> Message-ID: <867998c6-feba-207d-a043-735f6341dfba@marxists.org> "People make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past" sounds like a good rule of thumb to me. Nowhere does this suggest that any given form of society leads us to socialism or anywhere else. This pandemic is clearing the slate. New forms of collaboration may arise out of the ashes of the pre-pandemic world. It's up to us. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 17/09/2020 11:22 am, Martin Packer wrote: > So capitalism is the way of the whole world. And yet not > even capitalism can lead us to socialism. We are doomed! > > But at least we figured out what?s left and what?s right. > > Martin > > > >> On Sep 16, 2020, at 7:40 PM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >> >> As our Chief Health Officer repeatedly says, "Data beats >> models every time." Capitalism is a world system now. The >> question of whether, in the mid-18th century, capitalism >> was inevitable is a moot point. From a political and >> philosophical point of view, of course it wasn't. But the >> data is now in. >> >> Marx's approach was always *critique of existing social >> conditions*, never speculation about the future or >> inevitable stages or laws of history. In his private >> correspondence with friends Marx betrayed his humanness, >> his ever expecting the Revolution tomorrow. But in public >> scientific writing he never did this. Please show me >> where Marx wrote "that the internal contradictions of >> capitalism would lead to its collapse and to the >> formation of a socialist society." >> >> I like to make the point that in the /Communist >> Manifesto/ Marx has almost nothing to say about what the >> working class would do if it were to seize state power. >> The programmatic points here: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm*133__;Iw!!Mih3wA!RTDwQ-LorilYXJ5nc5zjqPxki29rONB4a1uLLNGwC9eRqVEo-1YqaoEWHgy-JY29aBASLg$ >> >> are as far as he went. After the Paris Commune, he was >> able to /see/ what the workers' movement actually strived >> to do: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/preface.htm*preface-1872__;Iw!!Mih3wA!RTDwQ-LorilYXJ5nc5zjqPxki29rONB4a1uLLNGwC9eRqVEo-1YqaoEWHgy-JY14PraEDQ$ >> >> and you can clearly see how these progammatic points were >> intended as a political program, subject to continual >> revision. Not any declaration of historical necessity, >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 17/09/2020 6:03 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>> So capitalism is not *necessary* for socialism to become >>> possible. Why should capitalism then be *sufficient* for >>> socialism to become possible? >>> >>> That is, we seem to be generally agreed that capitalism >>> has not been an inevitable stage of societal evolution, >>> a stepping stone on the way to socialism. A socialist >>> state could, in theory, arise from a pre-industrial >>> society. Capitalism is not necessary. Its existence has >>> been a contingency, an historical accident. >>> >>> Why then should capitalism, where it exists, set the >>> stage for socialism? Do we agree that Marx proposed that >>> the internal contradictions of capitalism would lead to >>> its collapse and to the formation of a socialist >>> society? But perhaps this analysis was wrong. Perhaps >>> capitalism will simply collapse. Its global supply >>> chains will be disrupted. Its access to cheap labor will >>> be cut off. Its ability to make people consume endlessly >>> will run dry. It will simply grind to a halt and fall over. >>> >>> And then societies of the future could arise in parts of >>> the world which have *escaped* capitalism, few and far >>> between though they are. >>> >>> People in a capitalist society like to think it is the >>> most advanced, the most evolved. And the left (oops!) >>> seems largely to agree. But perhaps capitalism will turn >>> out to be merely an evolutionary dead end. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Sep 15, 2020, at 7:33 PM, Andy Blunden >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> This letter: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1881/letters/81_03_08.htm__;!!Mih3wA!RTDwQ-LorilYXJ5nc5zjqPxki29rONB4a1uLLNGwC9eRqVEo-1YqaoEWHgy-JY3sWOO4Dg$ >>>> >>>> is one occasion when Marx makes it clear that he makes >>>> no claim for the inevitability of a capitalist stage of >>>> social development, only that this was what was >>>> actually the case in Europe in his time. Note that >>>> Marx's correspondence with Vera Zasulich was published >>>> in Russia in 1924, so Vygotsky would have been aware of >>>> this. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> On 16/09/2020 1:58 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>>>>> capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, >>>>>> is no universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). >>>>> >>>>> This happens to be something I?ve been thinking about >>>>> recently ? the ?evitability? (avoidability, as opposed >>>>> to inevitability) of capitalism. I?ve been reading >>>>> some of the work of Douglass North, who won a Nobel >>>>> prize in economics in 1993 for his analysis of the >>>>> role that institutions have played in economic >>>>> ?development,? He thought ?he was describing how the >>>>> West achieved ?progress? and has been able to ?evolve? >>>>> further than other regions, but one can read his work >>>>> as describing alternative pathways in the formation of >>>>> economic systems, which in the West has led to an >>>>> imbalance in which profit and growth have become the >>>>> only measures of societal and individual achievement. >>>>> >>>>> A neat illustration: the NY Times has been publishing >>>>> reflections upon an article written 50 years ago by >>>>> Milton Friedman titled "The Social Responsibility Of >>>>> Business Is to?Increase Its Profits." Friedman wrote: >>>>> >>>>> WHEN I hear businessmen speak eloquently about the >>>>> ?social?responsibilities of business in >>>>> a?free?enterprise system,? I am reminded?of the >>>>> wonderful line about the Frenchman who >>>>> discovered?at, the age of?70 that he had been >>>>> speaking prose all his life. The >>>>> businessmen?believe that they?are defending free >>>>> enterprise when they declaim that?business is not >>>>> concerned ?merely? with profit?but also with >>>>> promoting?desirable ?social? ends; that business >>>>> has a ?social conscience? and?takes?seriously its >>>>> responsibilities for providing >>>>> employment,?eliminating discrimination, avoiding >>>>> pollution?and whatever else may be?the catchwords >>>>> of the contemporary crop of reformers. In fact >>>>> they?are?or would be if they or any one else took >>>>> them seriously? preaching?pure and >>>>> unadulterated?socialism. Businessmen who talk this >>>>> way are?unwitting puppets of the intellectual >>>>> forces that have?been undermining?the basis of a >>>>> free society these past decades. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It will be hard to find a better statement of the >>>>> ideology that has got us all into the current mess. >>>>> >>>>> On the left, was it with Lenin that capitalism became >>>>> viewed as a necessary prerequisite to socialism? For >>>>> example, as I understand it after the revolution in >>>>> Mexico, 1910-1920, the PRI (Partido Revolucionario >>>>> Institucional) worked hard to turn the indigenous >>>>> peoples into a proletariat. This was the only way they >>>>> could imagine societal progress: quickly moving the >>>>> country into capitalism so as to achieve socialism. I >>>>> conclude that it was not only Stalin who taught this. >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:57 PM, David Kellogg >>>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> If you click on the link that Henry, and before him >>>>>> John, offered, you get the pro-natural-capital side >>>>>> of a debate in the pages of the Guardian on whether >>>>>> or not "nature" can be valued as capital and whether >>>>>> it is good or bad for nature for humans to do this. I >>>>>> think that in CHAT, we are indebted to Marx for many >>>>>> things, but surely one debt we would do well not to >>>>>> disavow is Marx's insistence (in Critique of the >>>>>> Gotha programme and elsewhere) that nature is NOT >>>>>> capital: on the contrary, humans and all of their >>>>>> various property forms from communism to capitalism >>>>>> must be considered peculiar forms of nature. This is >>>>>> a discussion that CHAT needs to have if we are going >>>>>> to retain the AT in CHAT. I disagree with Peter Jones >>>>>> on many many things, but one thing I heartily agree >>>>>> with him on is the idea that Leontiev brings an >>>>>> intensely anti-naturalistic view of activity into >>>>>> activity theory--humans acting as subjects on passive >>>>>> environments to produce beneficial outcomes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Marx had a better idea: in the Ethnological >>>>>> Notebooks, he shows us that capitalism, and hence the >>>>>> idea of nature as capital, is no universal stage >>>>>> (contrary to what Stalin taught). Western capitalism, >>>>>> with its idea of nature as capital, is really? just >>>>>> one extreme variant. In Marx's columns on the Sepoy >>>>>> rebellion and the Taiping rebellion, he even posits >>>>>> an "Asiantic mode of production" that had virtually >>>>>> nothing to do with feudalism. So to say that South >>>>>> Korea and Japan are equally capitalist societies is >>>>>> really a little like saying that China and the USSR >>>>>> were equally non-capitalist. Deus Sive Natura: and >>>>>> neither one is capital. >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>>> >>>>>> New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: >>>>>> Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in >>>>>> and between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky >>>>>> >>>>>> Some free e-prints today available at: >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!RTDwQ-LorilYXJ5nc5zjqPxki29rONB4a1uLLNGwC9eRqVEo-1YqaoEWHgy-JY0C2d-yaw$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's >>>>>> Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RTDwQ-LorilYXJ5nc5zjqPxki29rONB4a1uLLNGwC9eRqVEo-1YqaoEWHgy-JY11ItGmTw$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 3:43 AM HENRY SHONERD >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin, John and Andy >>>>>> Thanks to Martin for kicking off this topic and >>>>>> John and Andy for following up. I has amazed me >>>>>> to find, for me, how the RTZ narrative resonates >>>>>> with both Navajo and Pueblo narratives here in >>>>>> New Mexico. How evil RTZ ?is, but how wonderful >>>>>> the courage of our native peoples! >>>>>> >>>>>> Chaco Canyon IS a tourist destination here in New >>>>>> Mexico. Though there has been no destruction of >>>>>> the site that, based on Native American >>>>>> narratives and the efforts of archeologists, is >>>>>> architecturally spectacular evidence of the >>>>>> pre-Colombian culture from which the present-day >>>>>> Pueblos come. What parallels RTZ activities on >>>>>> aboriginal lands in Australia is the drilling for >>>>>> gas and oil on Navajo lands surrounding Chaco and >>>>>> a rush to buy more rights while Trump is in >>>>>> power. There have been protests, though nothing >>>>>> as intense and effective as the Standing Rock >>>>>> protests to protect water on native lands to our >>>>>> north and east from gas and oil predation (the >>>>>> pipeline). Standing Rock was LED by Native >>>>>> Americans, many from the Navajo, Apache and >>>>>> Pueblo near me. >>>>>> >>>>>> I just saw yesterday a 30-year-old film that is >>>>>> one of the offerings of the Vision Maker Film >>>>>> Festival: Clear Cut. I recommend it, or at least >>>>>> a look at the wiki article about it. It couldn?t >>>>>> be more timely. It?s messy, where contention >>>>>> between environmental and logging interests and >>>>>> division WITHIN the native community (traditon >>>>>> vs. jobs) leave one stunned. What redeems a messy >>>>>> struggle is exactly what Andy says: The >>>>>> aboriginal people of the world do it for us! In >>>>>> the same way, when ?our? Pueblos put on feasts >>>>>> and invite us in to witness their dances, they do >>>>>> it for us. Perhaps you recall the movie >>>>>> ?Koyaniskaatsi?, la Hopi word that has been >>>>>> translated as "life out of balance". (The Hopis >>>>>> are a Puebloan people, descendants of the Chacoan >>>>>> culture. The Navajos and Apaches arrived here >>>>>> about the same time as the European colonizers, >>>>>> based on linguistic and genetic evidence.) If you >>>>>> live in New Mexico, you are around Pueblo people. >>>>>> If you are really lucky, and many of us are, you >>>>>> become friends with them and they invite you to >>>>>> share their food at the feasts! How generous is >>>>>> this? They do it for us. >>>>>> >>>>>> The RTZ narrative is not only destructive to >>>>>> cultural capital, it is implicated in natural >>>>>> capital >>>>>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/nov/23/monbiot-natural-capital-wrong-conservation__;!!Mih3wA!RTDwQ-LorilYXJ5nc5zjqPxki29rONB4a1uLLNGwC9eRqVEo-1YqaoEWHgy-JY2m70qKAg$ >>>>>> ) >>>>>> via climate change. (The link here, to a Guardian >>>>>> article is available through the first link in >>>>>> John?s post). Here again we should look to our >>>>>> native peoples. There is credible research that >>>>>> concludes the climate change lengthens fire >>>>>> seasons but wrong-headed environmental policies >>>>>> make the fires more intense, hence less >>>>>> controllable. Add to this the incursion of >>>>>> housing into forested areas and the destruction >>>>>> is a doubly self-inflicted wound. And hold on for >>>>>> this one for the best CHAT connection: Native >>>>>> peoples of this continent used to set controlled >>>>>> burns to remove the kind of unburnt fuel to avoid >>>>>> such conflagrations. Today some of ?the >>>>>> best-trained and most effective firefighters in >>>>>> this country are Native Americans. Cultural >>>>>> capital. They do it for us, and their example >>>>>> from the past can serve us now. Cultural capital. >>>>>> >>>>>> I believe I have crowed before about New Mexico >>>>>> and our Native Americans. Australia has crowing >>>>>> rights as well. And, for standing proud, there?s >>>>>> nothing like an anthem. The best anthem music I >>>>>> have EVER heard comes from Australia: Yothu Yindi >>>>>> What a great project that brings together white >>>>>> people and people of color. What great creative >>>>>> collaboration. Andy, I am telling you again, >>>>>> project is a great unit of analysis, precisely >>>>>> because it brings together cognition and affect, >>>>>> because it embodies active orientation. In my >>>>>> country, it is pretty well agreed that the >>>>>> natives got screwed, across the political divide. >>>>>> Black Lives Matter is more complex, but there is >>>>>> hope that the question of race is now where LGBTQ >>>>>> issues were at the time of the AIDS crisis, in >>>>>> the last century. Back then we could never have >>>>>> guessed we would be where we are with >>>>>> non-gender-conforming acceptance now. Just >>>>>> saying, as much for myself as for anybody else >>>>>> listening. >>>>>> >>>>>> La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n >>>>>> Henry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Er. " *NO *physical markers" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Home Page >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 14/09/2020 11:43 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list >>>>>>>> before noticing that John had already >>>>>>>> responded, and John is much better informed >>>>>>>> than me about these matters, and yet I spoke as >>>>>>>> if he didn't exist. My apologies. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> These caves are nothing for tourism. They are >>>>>>>> too remote and there are others more >>>>>>>> accessible. I believe the caves have been under >>>>>>>> Native Title as a result of a bitter struggle >>>>>>>> to protect them by the local people in the >>>>>>>> 1990s. This means that RTZ had to get >>>>>>>> permission from the PKK people. The lawyers >>>>>>>> swindled them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In my view, all these sites which are not only >>>>>>>> part of Aboriginal heritage (there are places >>>>>>>> which have *NO *physical markers of their >>>>>>>> status but are sacred to the local people) but >>>>>>>> self-evidently of *world* heritage. But I don't >>>>>>>> think these caves were registered as World >>>>>>>> Heritage. I have not heard the discussion about >>>>>>>> this (John?). No-one wants to say this, I >>>>>>>> think, because it implies that Indigenous >>>>>>>> values are somehow less important than human >>>>>>>> values. For example, under the law as it stands >>>>>>>> the PKK Land Council would have a right to let >>>>>>>> RTZ destroy the caves and maybe a million >>>>>>>> dollars or two in the bank or a new school, >>>>>>>> would be enough. This is not a hypothetical. >>>>>>>> One of the reasons that the Indigenous people >>>>>>>> remain impoverished even where they have Native >>>>>>>> Title over large areas of land, is that they >>>>>>>> live, after all, in a capitalist country and >>>>>>>> Native title cannot be sold. It is not a >>>>>>>> commodity. Therefore it is not a form of >>>>>>>> wealth. You can't get a mortgage to build a >>>>>>>> house on land you own by Native title.? You >>>>>>>> can't sell a block to a farmer so you can buy >>>>>>>> agricultural equipment to farm another block. >>>>>>>> In short, by blocking the Indigenous people >>>>>>>> from monetising their land rights we trap them >>>>>>>> in poverty. In general, the indigenous people >>>>>>>> are happy to forgo tourist income to protect >>>>>>>> their sacred sites (e.g. Uluru) and I don't >>>>>>>> doubt for an instant, that if they'd been >>>>>>>> properly consulted they never would have agreed >>>>>>>> to the destruction of the caves. Obviously. But >>>>>>>> they do have to have rights to trade with their >>>>>>>> land. But also the world needs to keep >>>>>>>> absolutely unique archaeological sites pristine >>>>>>>> and the local people should be supported by >>>>>>>> governments to do the work of protecting them >>>>>>>> on *our* behalf. Recognising the great cost >>>>>>>> entailed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Home Page >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>>>>>>>> Thanks, John and Andy, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I suppose that I am naive, for this event >>>>>>>>> astonishes me in so many different ways. I >>>>>>>>> would have assumed that the land title or >>>>>>>>> native title granted to indigenous peoples >>>>>>>>> over some territory in Australia would have >>>>>>>>> included the?Juuken Gorge caves. I would have >>>>>>>>> assumed that these caves were a national >>>>>>>>> cultural heritage site, or even a world >>>>>>>>> cultural heritage site. I would have assumed >>>>>>>>> that indigenous rights would have more >>>>>>>>> importance to the Australian government, and >>>>>>>>> indeed to the Australian people. I would have >>>>>>>>> assumed that, while mining is apparently of >>>>>>>>> great economic importance to the country, the >>>>>>>>> government would have considered the economic >>>>>>>>> value of this site for tourism, or simply the >>>>>>>>> impact that destroying the caves would have on >>>>>>>>> Australia?s reputation. And while I suppose >>>>>>>>> that unbridled rapaciousness on the part of an >>>>>>>>> international mining company is hardly a >>>>>>>>> surprise, I would have thought that Rio Tinto >>>>>>>>> would also have considered the negative >>>>>>>>> publicity that their actions would create. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> How can we express our displeasure to the >>>>>>>>> various parties involved? Are there petitions >>>>>>>>> that one can sign? Or Twitter accounts to >>>>>>>>> which one can tweet? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO >>>>>>>>> Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if his bonus this year >>>>>>>>> would have been A$4.9 million. Perhaps he >>>>>>>>> could donate a few years of his salary to >>>>>>>>> establish a foundation that could work for >>>>>>>>> indigenous peoples? rights. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> sadly >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps >>>>>>>>>> Clark >>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves >>>>>>>>>> (which I assume you are referring to) is a >>>>>>>>>> much more villainous act than was originally >>>>>>>>>> portrayed and reflects the venal racism not >>>>>>>>>> only of the company but also of the State >>>>>>>>>> Government. For those not familiar with this >>>>>>>>>> shocking crime, the $80b Anglo Australian >>>>>>>>>> mining company which on Sunday 24th of May >>>>>>>>>> blew up a site sacred to the Puutu Kunti >>>>>>>>>> Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) traditional >>>>>>>>>> owners and occupied for 46,000 years at >>>>>>>>>> least, to extend iron ore mining. "?It?s one >>>>>>>>>> of the most sacred sites in the Pilbara >>>>>>>>>> region ? we wanted to have that area >>>>>>>>>> protected,? PKKP director Burchell Hayes. The >>>>>>>>>> traditional owners tried desperately to stop >>>>>>>>>> the blast once they became aware it was >>>>>>>>>> impending. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there >>>>>>>>>> was a misunderstanding" but and, after much >>>>>>>>>> outrage, the three members of the executive >>>>>>>>>> had their multi million dollar bonuses >>>>>>>>>> reduced. It has subsequently emerged that Rio >>>>>>>>>> Tinto had contracted lawyers to oppose any >>>>>>>>>> injunctions before the crime was committed. >>>>>>>>>> The chief executive and two of his underlings >>>>>>>>>> have resigned. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The crime was legal and was made possible by >>>>>>>>>> State Government laws which are stacked in >>>>>>>>>> favour of miners. Assessments of the cultural >>>>>>>>>> and environmental significance are made with >>>>>>>>>> little investigation and remain in place for >>>>>>>>>> decades and have rarely been successfully be >>>>>>>>>> challenged. No permission to destroy heritage >>>>>>>>>> sites in WA has been refused (and there have >>>>>>>>>> been 463 applications). >>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It is not as if we didn?t know that this >>>>>>>>>> would happen. Norway's pension fund divested >>>>>>>>>> their holdings in Rio Tinto in 2008: >>>>>>>>>> "Exclusion of a company from the Fund >>>>>>>>>> reflects our unwillingness to run an >>>>>>>>>> unacceptable risk of contributing to grossly >>>>>>>>>> unethical conduct. The Council on Ethics has >>>>>>>>>> concluded that Rio Tinto is directly >>>>>>>>>> involved, through its participation in the >>>>>>>>>> Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the severe >>>>>>>>>> environmental damage caused by that mining >>>>>>>>>> operation." >>>>>>>>>> ?????Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of >>>>>>>>>> Finance >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A useful background briefing of indigenous >>>>>>>>>> rights in Australia: >>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ?On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, >>>>>>>>>> "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>> behalf of Martin Packer" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>> behalf of mpacker@cantab.net >>>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ???Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc >>>>>>>>>> been up to?? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ???Martin >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Important Notice: The contents of this email >>>>>>>>>> are intended solely for the named addressee >>>>>>>>>> and are confidential; any unauthorised use, >>>>>>>>>> reproduction or storage of the contents is >>>>>>>>>> expressly prohibited. If you have received >>>>>>>>>> this email in error, please delete it and any >>>>>>>>>> attachments immediately and advise the sender >>>>>>>>>> by return email or telephone. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Deakin University does not warrant that this >>>>>>>>>> email and any attachments are error or virus >>>>>>>>>> free. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200917/e5c7150a/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Sep 16 20:17:17 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 12:17:17 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> Message-ID: Martin-- According to a BBC report, Colombia is actually the most dangerous place to be an indigenous environmental activist--64 killings this year alone (compared to 43 in the whole of Brazil). What can YOU tell us about the Cerregar coal mining business and the Wayuu? ("Nature as capital" is just an ideological symptom: the name of the disease itself is "capital as nature".) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky Some free e-prints today available at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!QNEopwK_pk805ia29Q9E9oaq_5S26pKnN9cT11R1nuYaBKW1Ih_82Y_poWYDHEGGOqHRqQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QNEopwK_pk805ia29Q9E9oaq_5S26pKnN9cT11R1nuYaBKW1Ih_82Y_poWYDHEGiUy07fw$ On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 10:24 AM Martin Packer wrote: > So capitalism is the way of the whole world. And yet not even capitalism > can lead us to socialism. We are doomed! > > But at least we figured out what?s left and what?s right. > > Martin > > > > On Sep 16, 2020, at 7:40 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > As our Chief Health Officer repeatedly says, "Data beats models every > time." Capitalism is a world system now. The question of whether, in the > mid-18th century, capitalism was inevitable is a moot point. From a > political and philosophical point of view, of course it wasn't. But the > data is now in. > > Marx's approach was always *critique of existing social conditions*, > never speculation about the future or inevitable stages or laws of history. > In his private correspondence with friends Marx betrayed his humanness, his > ever expecting the Revolution tomorrow. But in public scientific writing he > never did this. Please show me where Marx wrote "that the internal > contradictions of capitalism would lead to its collapse and to the > formation of a socialist society." > > I like to make the point that in the *Communist Manifesto* Marx has > almost nothing to say about what the working class would do if it were to > seize state power. The programmatic points here: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm*133__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QNEopwK_pk805ia29Q9E9oaq_5S26pKnN9cT11R1nuYaBKW1Ih_82Y_poWYDHEFAe2hRuA$ > > are as far as he went. After the Paris Commune, he was able to *see* what > the workers' movement actually strived to do: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/preface.htm*preface-1872__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QNEopwK_pk805ia29Q9E9oaq_5S26pKnN9cT11R1nuYaBKW1Ih_82Y_poWYDHEEqyxac_w$ > > and you can clearly see how these progammatic points were intended as a > political program, subject to continual revision. Not any declaration of > historical necessity, > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 17/09/2020 6:03 am, Martin Packer wrote: > > So capitalism is not *necessary* for socialism to become possible. Why > should capitalism then be *sufficient* for socialism to become possible? > > That is, we seem to be generally agreed that capitalism has not been an > inevitable stage of societal evolution, a stepping stone on the way to > socialism. A socialist state could, in theory, arise from a pre-industrial > society. Capitalism is not necessary. Its existence has been a contingency, > an historical accident. > > Why then should capitalism, where it exists, set the stage for socialism? > Do we agree that Marx proposed that the internal contradictions of > capitalism would lead to its collapse and to the formation of a socialist > society? But perhaps this analysis was wrong. Perhaps capitalism will > simply collapse. Its global supply chains will be disrupted. Its access to > cheap labor will be cut off. Its ability to make people consume endlessly > will run dry. It will simply grind to a halt and fall over. > > And then societies of the future could arise in parts of the world which > have *escaped* capitalism, few and far between though they are. > > People in a capitalist society like to think it is the most advanced, the > most evolved. And the left (oops!) seems largely to agree. But perhaps > capitalism will turn out to be merely an evolutionary dead end. > > Martin > > > > > On Sep 15, 2020, at 7:33 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > This letter: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1881/letters/81_03_08.htm__;!!Mih3wA!QNEopwK_pk805ia29Q9E9oaq_5S26pKnN9cT11R1nuYaBKW1Ih_82Y_poWYDHEE1-iAG-g$ > > is one occasion when Marx makes it clear that he makes no claim for the > inevitability of a capitalist stage of social development, only that this > was what was actually the case in Europe in his time. Note that Marx's > correspondence with Vera Zasulich was published in Russia in 1924, so > Vygotsky would have been aware of this. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 16/09/2020 1:58 am, Martin Packer wrote: > > capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no universal stage > (contrary to what Stalin taught). > > > This happens to be something I?ve been thinking about recently ? the > ?evitability? (avoidability, as opposed to inevitability) of capitalism. > I?ve been reading some of the work of Douglass North, who won a Nobel prize > in economics in 1993 for his analysis of the role that institutions have > played in economic ?development,? He thought he was describing how the > West achieved ?progress? and has been able to ?evolve? further than other > regions, but one can read his work as describing alternative pathways in > the formation of economic systems, which in the West has led to an > imbalance in which profit and growth have become the only measures of > societal and individual achievement. > > A neat illustration: the NY Times has been publishing reflections upon an > article written 50 years ago by Milton Friedman titled "The Social > Responsibility Of Business Is to Increase Its Profits." Friedman wrote: > > WHEN I hear businessmen speak eloquently about the > ?social responsibilities of business in a free?enterprise system,? I am > reminded of the wonderful line about the Frenchman who discovered at, the > age of 70 that he had been speaking prose all his life. The > businessmen believe that they are defending free enterprise when they > declaim that business is not concerned ?merely? with profit but also with > promoting desirable ?social? ends; that business has a ?social conscience? > and takes seriously its responsibilities for providing > employment, eliminating discrimination, avoiding pollution and whatever > else may be the catchwords of the contemporary crop of reformers. In fact > they are?or would be if they or any one else took them seriously? > preaching pure and unadulterated socialism. Businessmen who talk this way > are unwitting puppets of the intellectual forces that have been > undermining the basis of a free society these past decades. > > > It will be hard to find a better statement of the ideology that has got us > all into the current mess. > > On the left, was it with Lenin that capitalism became viewed as a > necessary prerequisite to socialism? For example, as I understand it after > the revolution in Mexico, 1910-1920, the PRI (Partido Revolucionario > Institucional) worked hard to turn the indigenous peoples into a > proletariat. This was the only way they could imagine societal progress: > quickly moving the country into capitalism so as to achieve socialism. I > conclude that it was not only Stalin who taught this. > > Martin > > > On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:57 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > If you click on the link that Henry, and before him John, offered, you get > the pro-natural-capital side of a debate in the pages of the Guardian on > whether or not "nature" can be valued as capital and whether it is good or > bad for nature for humans to do this. I think that in CHAT, we are indebted > to Marx for many things, but surely one debt we would do well not to > disavow is Marx's insistence (in Critique of the Gotha programme and > elsewhere) that nature is NOT capital: on the contrary, humans and all of > their various property forms from communism to capitalism must be > considered peculiar forms of nature. This is a discussion that CHAT needs > to have if we are going to retain the AT in CHAT. I disagree with Peter > Jones on many many things, but one thing I heartily agree with him on is > the idea that Leontiev brings an intensely anti-naturalistic view of > activity into activity theory--humans acting as subjects on passive > environments to produce beneficial outcomes. > > Marx had a better idea: in the Ethnological Notebooks, he shows us that > capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no universal stage > (contrary to what Stalin taught). Western capitalism, with its idea of > nature as capital, is really just one extreme variant. In Marx's columns > on the Sepoy rebellion and the Taiping rebellion, he even posits an > "Asiantic mode of production" that had virtually nothing to do with > feudalism. So to say that South Korea and Japan are equally capitalist > societies is really a little like saying that China and the USSR were > equally non-capitalist. Deus Sive Natura: and neither one is capital. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: > Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, > Hasan, and Vygotsky > > Some free e-prints today available at: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!QNEopwK_pk805ia29Q9E9oaq_5S26pKnN9cT11R1nuYaBKW1Ih_82Y_poWYDHEGGOqHRqQ$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QNEopwK_pk805ia29Q9E9oaq_5S26pKnN9cT11R1nuYaBKW1Ih_82Y_poWYDHEGiUy07fw$ > > > > On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 3:43 AM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Martin, John and Andy >> Thanks to Martin for kicking off this topic and John and Andy for >> following up. I has amazed me to find, for me, how the RTZ narrative >> resonates with both Navajo and Pueblo narratives here in New Mexico. How >> evil RTZ is, but how wonderful the courage of our native peoples! >> >> Chaco Canyon IS a tourist destination here in New Mexico. Though there >> has been no destruction of the site that, based on Native American >> narratives and the efforts of archeologists, is architecturally spectacular >> evidence of the pre-Colombian culture from which the present-day Pueblos >> come. What parallels RTZ activities on aboriginal lands in Australia is the >> drilling for gas and oil on Navajo lands surrounding Chaco and a rush to >> buy more rights while Trump is in power. There have been protests, though >> nothing as intense and effective as the Standing Rock protests to protect >> water on native lands to our north and east from gas and oil predation (the >> pipeline). Standing Rock was LED by Native Americans, many from the Navajo, >> Apache and Pueblo near me. >> >> I just saw yesterday a 30-year-old film that is one of the offerings of >> the Vision Maker Film Festival: Clear Cut. I recommend it, or at least a >> look at the wiki article about it. It couldn?t be more timely. It?s messy, >> where contention between environmental and logging interests and division >> WITHIN the native community (traditon vs. jobs) leave one stunned. What >> redeems a messy struggle is exactly what Andy says: The aboriginal people >> of the world do it for us! In the same way, when ?our? Pueblos put on >> feasts and invite us in to witness their dances, they do it for us. Perhaps >> you recall the movie ?Koyaniskaatsi?, la Hopi word that has been translated >> as "life out of balance". (The Hopis are a Puebloan people, descendants of >> the Chacoan culture. The Navajos and Apaches arrived here about the same >> time as the European colonizers, based on linguistic and genetic evidence.) >> If you live in New Mexico, you are around Pueblo people. If you are really >> lucky, and many of us are, you become friends with them and they invite you >> to share their food at the feasts! How generous is this? They do it for us. >> >> The RTZ narrative is not only destructive to cultural capital, it is >> implicated in natural capital ( >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/nov/23/monbiot-natural-capital-wrong-conservation__;!!Mih3wA!QNEopwK_pk805ia29Q9E9oaq_5S26pKnN9cT11R1nuYaBKW1Ih_82Y_poWYDHEH0Jgv0-w$ >> ) >> via climate change. (The link here, to a Guardian article is available >> through the first link in John?s post). Here again we should look to our >> native peoples. There is credible research that concludes the climate >> change lengthens fire seasons but wrong-headed environmental policies make >> the fires more intense, hence less controllable. Add to this the incursion >> of housing into forested areas and the destruction is a doubly >> self-inflicted wound. And hold on for this one for the best CHAT >> connection: Native peoples of this continent used to set controlled burns >> to remove the kind of unburnt fuel to avoid such conflagrations. Today some >> of the best-trained and most effective firefighters in this country are >> Native Americans. Cultural capital. They do it for us, and their example >> from the past can serve us now. Cultural capital. >> >> I believe I have crowed before about New Mexico and our Native Americans. >> Australia has crowing rights as well. And, for standing proud, there?s >> nothing like an anthem. The best anthem music I have EVER heard comes from >> Australia: Yothu Yindi What a great project that brings together white >> people and people of color. What great creative collaboration. Andy, I am >> telling you again, project is a great unit of analysis, precisely because >> it brings together cognition and affect, because it embodies active >> orientation. In my country, it is pretty well agreed that the natives got >> screwed, across the political divide. Black Lives Matter is more complex, >> but there is hope that the question of race is now where LGBTQ issues were >> at the time of the AIDS crisis, in the last century. Back then we could >> never have guessed we would be where we are with non-gender-conforming >> acceptance now. Just saying, as much for myself as for anybody else >> listening. >> >> La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n >> Henry >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Er. " *NO *physical markers" >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 14/09/2020 11:43 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list before noticing that John had >> already responded, and John is much better informed than me about these >> matters, and yet I spoke as if he didn't exist. My apologies. >> >> These caves are nothing for tourism. They are too remote and there are >> others more accessible. I believe the caves have been under Native Title as >> a result of a bitter struggle to protect them by the local people in the >> 1990s. This means that RTZ had to get permission from the PKK people. The >> lawyers swindled them. >> >> In my view, all these sites which are not only part of Aboriginal >> heritage (there are places which have *NO *physical markers of their >> status but are sacred to the local people) but self-evidently of *world* >> heritage. But I don't think these caves were registered as World Heritage. >> I have not heard the discussion about this (John?). No-one wants to say >> this, I think, because it implies that Indigenous values are somehow less >> important than human values. For example, under the law as it stands the >> PKK Land Council would have a right to let RTZ destroy the caves and maybe >> a million dollars or two in the bank or a new school, would be enough. This >> is not a hypothetical. One of the reasons that the Indigenous people remain >> impoverished even where they have Native Title over large areas of land, is >> that they live, after all, in a capitalist country and Native title cannot >> be sold. It is not a commodity. Therefore it is not a form of wealth. You >> can't get a mortgage to build a house on land you own by Native title. You >> can't sell a block to a farmer so you can buy agricultural equipment to >> farm another block. In short, by blocking the Indigenous people from >> monetising their land rights we trap them in poverty. In general, the >> indigenous people are happy to forgo tourist income to protect their sacred >> sites (e.g. Uluru) and I don't doubt for an instant, that if they'd been >> properly consulted they never would have agreed to the destruction of the >> caves. Obviously. But they do have to have rights to trade with their land. >> But also the world needs to keep absolutely unique archaeological sites >> pristine and the local people should be supported by governments to do the >> work of protecting them on *our* behalf. Recognising the great cost >> entailed. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote: >> >> Thanks, John and Andy, >> >> I suppose that I am naive, for this event astonishes me in so many >> different ways. I would have assumed that the land title or native title >> granted to indigenous peoples over some territory in Australia would have >> included the Juuken Gorge caves. I would have assumed that these caves were >> a national cultural heritage site, or even a world cultural heritage site. >> I would have assumed that indigenous rights would have more importance to >> the Australian government, and indeed to the Australian people. I would >> have assumed that, while mining is apparently of great economic importance >> to the country, the government would have considered the economic value of >> this site for tourism, or simply the impact that destroying the caves would >> have on Australia?s reputation. And while I suppose that unbridled >> rapaciousness on the part of an international mining company is hardly a >> surprise, I would have thought that Rio Tinto would also have considered >> the negative publicity that their actions would create. >> >> How can we express our displeasure to the various parties involved? Are >> there petitions that one can sign? Or Twitter accounts to which one can >> tweet? >> >> I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if >> his bonus this year would have been A$4.9 million. Perhaps he could donate >> a few years of his salary to establish a foundation that could work for >> indigenous peoples? rights. >> >> sadly >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps Clark < >> john.crippsclark@deakin.edu.au> wrote: >> >> The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves (which I assume you are >> referring to) is a much more villainous act than was originally portrayed >> and reflects the venal racism not only of the company but also of the State >> Government. For those not familiar with this shocking crime, the $80b Anglo >> Australian mining company which on Sunday 24th of May blew up a site sacred >> to the Puutu Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) traditional owners and >> occupied for 46,000 years at least, to extend iron ore mining. "?It?s one >> of the most sacred sites in the Pilbara region ? we wanted to have that >> area protected,? PKKP director Burchell Hayes. The traditional owners tried >> desperately to stop the blast once they became aware it was impending. >> >> At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there was a misunderstanding" but >> and, after much outrage, the three members of the executive had their multi >> million dollar bonuses reduced. It has subsequently emerged that Rio Tinto >> had contracted lawyers to oppose any injunctions before the crime was >> committed. The chief executive and two of his underlings have resigned. >> >> The crime was legal and was made possible by State Government laws which >> are stacked in favour of miners. Assessments of the cultural and >> environmental significance are made with little investigation and remain in >> place for decades and have rarely been successfully be challenged. No >> permission to destroy heritage sites in WA has been refused (and there have >> been 463 applications). >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ >> >> It is not as if we didn?t know that this would happen. Norway's pension >> fund divested their holdings in Rio Tinto in 2008: "Exclusion of a company >> from the Fund reflects our unwillingness to run an unacceptable risk of >> contributing to grossly unethical conduct. The Council on Ethics has >> concluded that Rio Tinto is directly involved, through its participation in >> the Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the severe environmental damage caused >> by that mining operation." >> ? Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of Finance >> >> A useful background briefing of indigenous rights in Australia: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ >> >> ?On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of >> Martin Packer" > mpacker@cantab.net> wrote: >> >> Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to?? >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for the >> named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or >> storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this >> email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise >> the sender by return email or telephone. >> >> Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments >> are error or virus free. >> >> >> >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200917/da057b4a/attachment.html From helenaworthen@gmail.com Thu Sep 17 13:51:18 2020 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 13:51:18 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: <867998c6-feba-207d-a043-735f6341dfba@marxists.org> References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> <867998c6-feba-207d-a043-735f6341dfba@marxists.org> Message-ID: >From another list, a suggestion about how to think about national self-image.This relates to the comment about societies which have ?escaped capitalism,? which are few and vulnerable to getting blown up, apparently. Helena Hi all, With apologies for self-promotion, I want to share my recently published opinion piece in Nature discussing Vietnam's successes in combating COVID-19 and contrasting these to failures elsewhere. I'd be interested in list members' comments and opinions. "Study the role of hubris in nations' Covid-19 response" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02596-8__;!!Mih3wA!VrNHQiaDy43qrlg6O28VJIaAbIrKn1po7oOL4efdYcLof834HNhRMfk52DOSRc6Qza4tgA$ Thanks and best, Martha Martha Lincoln Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology San Francisco State University ___________________ Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com helenaworthen.wordpress.com check your registration at vote.gov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200917/741a768b/attachment.html From john.crippsclark@deakin.edu.au Thu Sep 17 17:32:13 2020 From: john.crippsclark@deakin.edu.au (John Cripps Clark) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 00:32:13 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc In-Reply-To: References: <005501d68700$a5d24920$f176db60$@gmail.com> <6BBA22D6-2D49-4339-9428-6319F8D099D3@cantab.net> <61B0257B-B519-44EE-9002-857542F5B9EC@deakin.edu.au> <30FEBFFC-C859-4E8C-BE1F-1234C50DCEC2@cantab.net> <4c32147b-8b59-8f30-d758-8cf42e4e4d71@marxists.org> <6861c8fa-24db-c490-acf0-ff26371a6542@marxists.org> <7F77A892-FE0A-4766-AB51-7670B6C23774@cantab.net> Message-ID: For those who are interested in following the Parliamentary inquiry. They will be holding hearings on Monday and you can listen in live. Here his their press release: John Issues with travel to Western Australia can?t stop the parliamentary inquiry into the destruction of Indigenous heritage sites at Juukan Gorge, with the Northern Australia Committee set to virtually go West next week to speak to Western Australian stakeholders. Northern Australia Committee Chair Warren Entsch says that despite the closure of the border with Western Australia, the Committee is continuing to take evidence from Western Australian stakeholders. ?The Committee remains committed to travelling to Western Australia, but in the meantime we will speak to as many people as we can by video and teleconference,? Mr Entsch said. ?Monday?s hearing will allow us to speak to a range of people working on the frontline of heritage protection.? In its submission, the Yinhawangka Aboriginal Corporation highlighted the importance of Indigenous control of Indigenous heritage. ?Expert voices?Aboriginal people, archaeologists and anthropologists?supported by technical and regulatory infrastructure that befits a first world country, should substantially make these technical decisions?, it said. ?No single person should have the power, at the stroke of a pen, to destroy sacred places or places that are an important part of the human story.? Western Australian MLC, Robin Chapple, also emphasised the need to empower Traditional Owners in their dealings with government and industry. ?Claim wide participation agreements should cease,? he argued. ?These contracts, to a large degree, are structured in such a way that many of the signatories and participants to these claim wide contracts had little understanding of the enormity of the unfettered access granted by these agreements to mining corporations, over massive swathes of country.? Programs are available on the Committee?s website. From: on behalf of David Kellogg Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Thursday, 17 September 2020 at 1:21 pm To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rio Tinto Zinc Martin-- According to a BBC report, Colombia is actually the most dangerous place to be an indigenous environmental activist--64 killings this year alone (compared to 43 in the whole of Brazil). What can YOU tell us about the Cerregar coal mining business and the Wayuu? ("Nature as capital" is just an ideological symptom: the name of the disease itself is "capital as nature".) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky Some free e-prints today available at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!XKI4Mp1AQheNmeQw-YrUjpPBMJ4XwAvRWUA61RWPlMFAhkXAnKAmCYFKQRkYYVjVg46b5A$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XKI4Mp1AQheNmeQw-YrUjpPBMJ4XwAvRWUA61RWPlMFAhkXAnKAmCYFKQRkYYVie3Ue7Bg$ On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 10:24 AM Martin Packer > wrote: So capitalism is the way of the whole world. And yet not even capitalism can lead us to socialism. We are doomed! But at least we figured out what?s left and what?s right. Martin On Sep 16, 2020, at 7:40 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: As our Chief Health Officer repeatedly says, "Data beats models every time." Capitalism is a world system now. The question of whether, in the mid-18th century, capitalism was inevitable is a moot point. From a political and philosophical point of view, of course it wasn't. But the data is now in. Marx's approach was always critique of existing social conditions, never speculation about the future or inevitable stages or laws of history. In his private correspondence with friends Marx betrayed his humanness, his ever expecting the Revolution tomorrow. But in public scientific writing he never did this. Please show me where Marx wrote "that the internal contradictions of capitalism would lead to its collapse and to the formation of a socialist society." I like to make the point that in the Communist Manifesto Marx has almost nothing to say about what the working class would do if it were to seize state power. The programmatic points here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm*133__;Iw!!Mih3wA!XKI4Mp1AQheNmeQw-YrUjpPBMJ4XwAvRWUA61RWPlMFAhkXAnKAmCYFKQRkYYVhtTUziaQ$ are as far as he went. After the Paris Commune, he was able to see what the workers' movement actually strived to do: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/preface.htm*preface-1872__;Iw!!Mih3wA!XKI4Mp1AQheNmeQw-YrUjpPBMJ4XwAvRWUA61RWPlMFAhkXAnKAmCYFKQRkYYVjJuV0YKw$ and you can clearly see how these progammatic points were intended as a political program, subject to continual revision. Not any declaration of historical necessity, Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 17/09/2020 6:03 am, Martin Packer wrote: So capitalism is not *necessary* for socialism to become possible. Why should capitalism then be *sufficient* for socialism to become possible? That is, we seem to be generally agreed that capitalism has not been an inevitable stage of societal evolution, a stepping stone on the way to socialism. A socialist state could, in theory, arise from a pre-industrial society. Capitalism is not necessary. Its existence has been a contingency, an historical accident. Why then should capitalism, where it exists, set the stage for socialism? Do we agree that Marx proposed that the internal contradictions of capitalism would lead to its collapse and to the formation of a socialist society? But perhaps this analysis was wrong. Perhaps capitalism will simply collapse. Its global supply chains will be disrupted. Its access to cheap labor will be cut off. Its ability to make people consume endlessly will run dry. It will simply grind to a halt and fall over. And then societies of the future could arise in parts of the world which have *escaped* capitalism, few and far between though they are. People in a capitalist society like to think it is the most advanced, the most evolved. And the left (oops!) seems largely to agree. But perhaps capitalism will turn out to be merely an evolutionary dead end. Martin On Sep 15, 2020, at 7:33 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: This letter: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1881/letters/81_03_08.htm__;!!Mih3wA!XKI4Mp1AQheNmeQw-YrUjpPBMJ4XwAvRWUA61RWPlMFAhkXAnKAmCYFKQRkYYVjk9AYnag$ is one occasion when Marx makes it clear that he makes no claim for the inevitability of a capitalist stage of social development, only that this was what was actually the case in Europe in his time. Note that Marx's correspondence with Vera Zasulich was published in Russia in 1924, so Vygotsky would have been aware of this. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/09/2020 1:58 am, Martin Packer wrote: capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). This happens to be something I?ve been thinking about recently ? the ?evitability? (avoidability, as opposed to inevitability) of capitalism. I?ve been reading some of the work of Douglass North, who won a Nobel prize in economics in 1993 for his analysis of the role that institutions have played in economic ?development,? He thought he was describing how the West achieved ?progress? and has been able to ?evolve? further than other regions, but one can read his work as describing alternative pathways in the formation of economic systems, which in the West has led to an imbalance in which profit and growth have become the only measures of societal and individual achievement. A neat illustration: the NY Times has been publishing reflections upon an article written 50 years ago by Milton Friedman titled "The Social Responsibility Of Business Is to Increase Its Profits." Friedman wrote: WHEN I hear businessmen speak eloquently about the ?social responsibilities of business in a free?enterprise system,? I am reminded of the wonderful line about the Frenchman who discovered at, the age of 70 that he had been speaking prose all his life. The businessmen believe that they are defending free enterprise when they declaim that business is not concerned ?merely? with profit but also with promoting desirable ?social? ends; that business has a ?social conscience? and takes seriously its responsibilities for providing employment, eliminating discrimination, avoiding pollution and whatever else may be the catchwords of the contemporary crop of reformers. In fact they are?or would be if they or any one else took them seriously? preaching pure and unadulterated socialism. Businessmen who talk this way are unwitting puppets of the intellectual forces that have been undermining the basis of a free society these past decades. It will be hard to find a better statement of the ideology that has got us all into the current mess. On the left, was it with Lenin that capitalism became viewed as a necessary prerequisite to socialism? For example, as I understand it after the revolution in Mexico, 1910-1920, the PRI (Partido Revolucionario Institucional) worked hard to turn the indigenous peoples into a proletariat. This was the only way they could imagine societal progress: quickly moving the country into capitalism so as to achieve socialism. I conclude that it was not only Stalin who taught this. Martin On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:57 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: If you click on the link that Henry, and before him John, offered, you get the pro-natural-capital side of a debate in the pages of the Guardian on whether or not "nature" can be valued as capital and whether it is good or bad for nature for humans to do this. I think that in CHAT, we are indebted to Marx for many things, but surely one debt we would do well not to disavow is Marx's insistence (in Critique of the Gotha programme and elsewhere) that nature is NOT capital: on the contrary, humans and all of their various property forms from communism to capitalism must be considered peculiar forms of nature. This is a discussion that CHAT needs to have if we are going to retain the AT in CHAT. I disagree with Peter Jones on many many things, but one thing I heartily agree with him on is the idea that Leontiev brings an intensely anti-naturalistic view of activity into activity theory--humans acting as subjects on passive environments to produce beneficial outcomes. Marx had a better idea: in the Ethnological Notebooks, he shows us that capitalism, and hence the idea of nature as capital, is no universal stage (contrary to what Stalin taught). Western capitalism, with its idea of nature as capital, is really just one extreme variant. In Marx's columns on the Sepoy rebellion and the Taiping rebellion, he even posits an "Asiantic mode of production" that had virtually nothing to do with feudalism. So to say that South Korea and Japan are equally capitalist societies is really a little like saying that China and the USSR were equally non-capitalist. Deus Sive Natura: and neither one is capital. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity: Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday, Hasan, and Vygotsky Some free e-prints today available at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!XKI4Mp1AQheNmeQw-YrUjpPBMJ4XwAvRWUA61RWPlMFAhkXAnKAmCYFKQRkYYVjVg46b5A$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XKI4Mp1AQheNmeQw-YrUjpPBMJ4XwAvRWUA61RWPlMFAhkXAnKAmCYFKQRkYYVie3Ue7Bg$ On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 3:43 AM HENRY SHONERD > wrote: Martin, John and Andy Thanks to Martin for kicking off this topic and John and Andy for following up. I has amazed me to find, for me, how the RTZ narrative resonates with both Navajo and Pueblo narratives here in New Mexico. How evil RTZ is, but how wonderful the courage of our native peoples! Chaco Canyon IS a tourist destination here in New Mexico. Though there has been no destruction of the site that, based on Native American narratives and the efforts of archeologists, is architecturally spectacular evidence of the pre-Colombian culture from which the present-day Pueblos come. What parallels RTZ activities on aboriginal lands in Australia is the drilling for gas and oil on Navajo lands surrounding Chaco and a rush to buy more rights while Trump is in power. There have been protests, though nothing as intense and effective as the Standing Rock protests to protect water on native lands to our north and east from gas and oil predation (the pipeline). Standing Rock was LED by Native Americans, many from the Navajo, Apache and Pueblo near me. I just saw yesterday a 30-year-old film that is one of the offerings of the Vision Maker Film Festival: Clear Cut. I recommend it, or at least a look at the wiki article about it. It couldn?t be more timely. It?s messy, where contention between environmental and logging interests and division WITHIN the native community (traditon vs. jobs) leave one stunned. What redeems a messy struggle is exactly what Andy says: The aboriginal people of the world do it for us! In the same way, when ?our? Pueblos put on feasts and invite us in to witness their dances, they do it for us. Perhaps you recall the movie ?Koyaniskaatsi?, la Hopi word that has been translated as "life out of balance". (The Hopis are a Puebloan people, descendants of the Chacoan culture. The Navajos and Apaches arrived here about the same time as the European colonizers, based on linguistic and genetic evidence.) If you live in New Mexico, you are around Pueblo people. If you are really lucky, and many of us are, you become friends with them and they invite you to share their food at the feasts! How generous is this? They do it for us. The RTZ narrative is not only destructive to cultural capital, it is implicated in natural capital (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/nov/23/monbiot-natural-capital-wrong-conservation__;!!Mih3wA!XKI4Mp1AQheNmeQw-YrUjpPBMJ4XwAvRWUA61RWPlMFAhkXAnKAmCYFKQRkYYVh_u4QAkA$ ) via climate change. (The link here, to a Guardian article is available through the first link in John?s post). Here again we should look to our native peoples. There is credible research that concludes the climate change lengthens fire seasons but wrong-headed environmental policies make the fires more intense, hence less controllable. Add to this the incursion of housing into forested areas and the destruction is a doubly self-inflicted wound. And hold on for this one for the best CHAT connection: Native peoples of this continent used to set controlled burns to remove the kind of unburnt fuel to avoid such conflagrations. Today some of the best-trained and most effective firefighters in this country are Native Americans. Cultural capital. They do it for us, and their example from the past can serve us now. Cultural capital. I believe I have crowed before about New Mexico and our Native Americans. Australia has crowing rights as well. And, for standing proud, there?s nothing like an anthem. The best anthem music I have EVER heard comes from Australia: Yothu Yindi What a great project that brings together white people and people of color. What great creative collaboration. Andy, I am telling you again, project is a great unit of analysis, precisely because it brings together cognition and affect, because it embodies active orientation. In my country, it is pretty well agreed that the natives got screwed, across the political divide. Black Lives Matter is more complex, but there is hope that the question of race is now where LGBTQ issues were at the time of the AIDS crisis, in the last century. Back then we could never have guessed we would be where we are with non-gender-conforming acceptance now. Just saying, as much for myself as for anybody else listening. La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n Henry On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: Er. " NO physical markers" ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/09/2020 11:43 am, Andy Blunden wrote: Firstly, an apology. I replied on the list before noticing that John had already responded, and John is much better informed than me about these matters, and yet I spoke as if he didn't exist. My apologies. These caves are nothing for tourism. They are too remote and there are others more accessible. I believe the caves have been under Native Title as a result of a bitter struggle to protect them by the local people in the 1990s. This means that RTZ had to get permission from the PKK people. The lawyers swindled them. In my view, all these sites which are not only part of Aboriginal heritage (there are places which have NO physical markers of their status but are sacred to the local people) but self-evidently of world heritage. But I don't think these caves were registered as World Heritage. I have not heard the discussion about this (John?). No-one wants to say this, I think, because it implies that Indigenous values are somehow less important than human values. For example, under the law as it stands the PKK Land Council would have a right to let RTZ destroy the caves and maybe a million dollars or two in the bank or a new school, would be enough. This is not a hypothetical. One of the reasons that the Indigenous people remain impoverished even where they have Native Title over large areas of land, is that they live, after all, in a capitalist country and Native title cannot be sold. It is not a commodity. Therefore it is not a form of wealth. You can't get a mortgage to build a house on land you own by Native title. You can't sell a block to a farmer so you can buy agricultural equipment to farm another block. In short, by blocking the Indigenous people from monetising their land rights we trap them in poverty. In general, the indigenous people are happy to forgo tourist income to protect their sacred sites (e.g. Uluru) and I don't doubt for an instant, that if they'd been properly consulted they never would have agreed to the destruction of the caves. Obviously. But they do have to have rights to trade with their land. But also the world needs to keep absolutely unique archaeological sites pristine and the local people should be supported by governments to do the work of protecting them on our behalf. Recognising the great cost entailed. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/09/2020 4:53 am, Martin Packer wrote: Thanks, John and Andy, I suppose that I am naive, for this event astonishes me in so many different ways. I would have assumed that the land title or native title granted to indigenous peoples over some territory in Australia would have included the Juuken Gorge caves. I would have assumed that these caves were a national cultural heritage site, or even a world cultural heritage site. I would have assumed that indigenous rights would have more importance to the Australian government, and indeed to the Australian people. I would have assumed that, while mining is apparently of great economic importance to the country, the government would have considered the economic value of this site for tourism, or simply the impact that destroying the caves would have on Australia?s reputation. And while I suppose that unbridled rapaciousness on the part of an international mining company is hardly a surprise, I would have thought that Rio Tinto would also have considered the negative publicity that their actions would create. How can we express our displeasure to the various parties involved? Are there petitions that one can sign? Or Twitter accounts to which one can tweet? I wonder how much the salary is of (ex) CEO Jean-Sebastien Jacques, if his bonus this year would have been A$4.9 million. Perhaps he could donate a few years of his salary to establish a foundation that could work for indigenous peoples? rights. sadly Martin On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:59 PM, John Cripps Clark > wrote: The destruction of the Juunken Gorge caves (which I assume you are referring to) is a much more villainous act than was originally portrayed and reflects the venal racism not only of the company but also of the State Government. For those not familiar with this shocking crime, the $80b Anglo Australian mining company which on Sunday 24th of May blew up a site sacred to the Puutu Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura (PKKP) traditional owners and occupied for 46,000 years at least, to extend iron ore mining. "?It?s one of the most sacred sites in the Pilbara region ? we wanted to have that area protected,? PKKP director Burchell Hayes. The traditional owners tried desperately to stop the blast once they became aware it was impending. At the time Rio Tinto claimed "Clearly there was a misunderstanding" but and, after much outrage, the three members of the executive had their multi million dollar bonuses reduced. It has subsequently emerged that Rio Tinto had contracted lawyers to oppose any injunctions before the crime was committed. The chief executive and two of his underlings have resigned. The crime was legal and was made possible by State Government laws which are stacked in favour of miners. Assessments of the cultural and environmental significance are made with little investigation and remain in place for decades and have rarely been successfully be challenged. No permission to destroy heritage sites in WA has been refused (and there have been 463 applications). https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/wa-heritage-destroyed-by-rio-tinto-example-of-national-trend/12305298__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstsuUT5a7UQ$ It is not as if we didn?t know that this would happen. Norway's pension fund divested their holdings in Rio Tinto in 2008: "Exclusion of a company from the Fund reflects our unwillingness to run an unacceptable risk of contributing to grossly unethical conduct. The Council on Ethics has concluded that Rio Tinto is directly involved, through its participation in the Grasberg mine in Indonesia, in the severe environmental damage caused by that mining operation." ??Kristin Halvorsen, Norwegian Minister of Finance A useful background briefing of indigenous rights in Australia: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/features/in-the-shadow-of-terra-nullius/__;!!Mih3wA!Q80d_k7DkHBzzs0yi4W5IfiSTlRupZ8XOxiOsNcARSHE8ZZrLW7G-oWoAnKstssDCtcsSw$ On 13/9/20, 12:26 am, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin Packer" on behalf of mpacker@cantab.net> wrote: Andy, what on earth has Rio Tinto Zinc been up to?? Martin Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for the named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise the sender by return email or telephone. Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments are error or virus free. Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for the named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise the sender by return email or telephone. Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments are error or virus free. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200918/ce7064d7/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Sep 30 16:45:27 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 08:45:27 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Science and Passion Message-ID: Andy has written a very interesting response paper to Anna Stetsenko's recent article "Hope, political imagination, and agency in Marxism and beyond" in which he argues that Marx differentiated the "flagrantly partisan" stance of his youth into a dispassionate science and a committed technology. Anna is arguing for more or less the opposite: as academics we need to abandon the idea that that emotion is separable from science, along with the notion that theory is separable from appliability. Here in Korea it is the annual harvest festival, and our little group (now not so little) is using the stay-at-home-this-holiday order to try to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching About the Emotions" into a kind of comic book. The idea is to use Dutch paintings from the Golden Age with thought balloons and speech bubbles to illustrate Vygotsky's text, to situate it into a popular genre here in Korea (the "Why?" science comic books) and above all to try to complement the argument Vygotsky is making about the role of emotion in the formation of interests, and hence concepts, with some of the passion and quietude of Rembrandt and Vermeer. So Lange argues that the whole of enculturation, if not education, nothing but toilet training: "The rod trains a child not to cry from disappointment as a result of emotional vasomotor spasm in the same way it trains him not to wet himself as a result of involuntary reflex functions." (Vol 6, 1999: 152, though the translation is somewhat off). Lange then argues that "history" has condemned "wild peoples" to extinction because of their inability to emotionally toilet-train themselves. Vygotsky manages to suppress his own rage; he deadpans that the racist implications of this view are shared not by Lange's physiologist co-thinkers but rather by their arch-enemy Kant and the cognitivist accounts of emotion. It's not just that philosophy makes for strange bedfellows, it's also the case that its repudiation breaks up once stable marriage vows. Without emotions, humans never would bother with science. But without the rod of science, the passions lead us straight back into racist bedwetting. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New article in WORD, journal of the International Linguistic Association (Volume 66, 2020 - Issue 3) The problem of articulate animals in Korean child conversation: A Hallidayan analysis, a Vygotskyan interpretation, and a Hasanian critique David Kellogg & Seon-mi Song Pages 149-165 | Published online: 18 Sep 2020 Some free e-prints available at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/HAHXXJCARIGMTDBWYS9S/full?target=10.1080*00437956.2020.1793498__;Lw!!Mih3wA!SMt-quuzIId0EBtbemt5aLiOWQJLEaFjT7gstOKC79XNAignbGG4ljFbbYHg24X9z0TfCA$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201001/d3ab2f0a/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Wed Sep 30 18:30:13 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 11:30:13 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Science and Passion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2c1d6636-7910-f152-5c0a-59dacd2309f5@marxists.org> Thanks for the interest, David, but my paper said absolutely nothing about emotion, which is of course nothing to do with the strange idea of "excluding" emotion. The motivation of scientific activity self-evidently entails emotion so long as we are human. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/science-partisan.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!S4ID5uDZu3ThzTshuAinndnUEx4h6tTRIVLkDBjV0h0l4WT2Agt_yC_A7qlq_xpnXJo0dA$ andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/10/2020 9:45 am, David Kellogg wrote: > Andy has written a very interesting response paper to Anna > Stetsenko's recent article "Hope, political imagination, > and agency in Marxism and beyond" in which he argues that > Marx differentiated the? "flagrantly partisan" stance of > his youth into a dispassionate science and a committed > technology. Anna is arguing for more or less the opposite: > as academics we need to abandon the idea that that emotion > is separable from science, along with the notion that > theory is separable from applicability. > > Here in Korea it is the annual harvest festival, and our > little group (now not so little) is using the > stay-at-home-this-holiday order to try to turn Vygotsky's > "Teaching About the Emotions" into a kind of comic book. > The idea is to use Dutch paintings from the Golden Age > with thought balloons and speech bubbles to illustrate > Vygotsky's text, to situate it into a popular genre here > in Korea (the "Why?" science comic books) and above all to > try to complement the argument Vygotsky is making about > the role of emotion?in the formation of interests, and > hence concepts, with some of the?passion and quietude of > Rembrandt and Vermeer. > > So Lange argues that the whole of enculturation, if not > education, nothing but toilet training: "The rod trains a > child not to cry from disappointment as a result of > emotional vasomotor spasm in the same way it trains him > not to wet himself?as a result of involuntary reflex > functions."? (Vol 6, 1999: 152, though the translation is > somewhat off). Lange then argues that "history" has > condemned "wild peoples" to extinction because of their > inability to emotionally toilet-train themselves. Vygotsky > manages to suppress his own rage; he deadpans that the > racist implications of this view are shared not by Lange's > physiologist co-thinkers but rather by their arch-enemy > Kant and the cognitivist accounts of emotion. It's not > just that philosophy makes for strange bedfellows, it's > also the case that its repudiation breaks up once stable > marriage vows. Without emotions, humans never would bother > with science. But without the rod of science, the passions > lead us straight back into racist bedwetting. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New article in WORD, journal of the International > Linguistic Association (Volume 66, 2020 - Issue 3) > The problem of articulate animals in Korean child > conversation: A Hallidayan analysis, a Vygotskyan > interpretation, and a Hasanian critique > David Kellogg & Seon-mi Song > Pages 149-165 | Published online: 18 Sep 2020 > > Some free e-prints available at: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/HAHXXJCARIGMTDBWYS9S/full?target=10.1080*00437956.2020.1793498__;Lw!!Mih3wA!S4ID5uDZu3ThzTshuAinndnUEx4h6tTRIVLkDBjV0h0l4WT2Agt_yC_A7qlq_xo5L4-wUA$ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201001/63c47dc5/attachment.html