[Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations?

[James Ma]

I think true academic discourse is oceanic and exhilarating. Xmas should be
a platform where the benevolent see benevolence and the wise see wisdom. If
we could speak our mind, then it would be more likely for us to capture and
appreciate the elusive nuances of such discourse. (I'm an apolitical
person, barely interested in any kind of political correctness, but do
cherish the heterogeneity of human interaction through freedom of academic
discourse.)

James

*__________________________________________________*

*James Ma  Independent Scholar https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa__;!!Mih3wA!SPa321-GZ5HY7ae3wmaeN_u9ks700CRo6AM_RoECQgL49wf0jR8x4ajfhAuLNqDTtwi7NQ$ 
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa__;!!Mih3wA!SPa321-GZ5HY7ae3wmaeN_u9ks700CRo6AM_RoECQgL49wf0jR8x4ajfhAuLNqDTtwi7NQ$ >  *

Ma, J. (forthcoming) "Good packaging can be misleading": A Peircean
contribution to intersubjectivity and Vygotskyan sign mediation. *Language
and Sociocultural Theory*, Volume 7, Issue 2, 2020. Equinox.


On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 at 16:04, Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu> wrote:

> I find it interesting that the current discussion, one of the best on xmca
> in many years I think, started with a “mistake.” At least that is how I
> read the thread, Arturo sent a private message that somehow went public.
> What is driving this conversation, at least to some degree, is the power,
> the passion and the affect of Arturo’s words (I would say this as the
> direction that Vygotsky was moving, his thinking on the role of affect in
> the ways we think and conceptualize the world – Anna is right I think,
> Vygotsky was a very dangerous thinker who got shoved by many into a box,
> and now we are afraid to let him back out – but a discussion for another
> time). What is important is that Arturo’s message crashed through the
> boundaries of “acceptable” academic discourse and immediately started to
> make at least some on this list ((including me) think in a different way,
> bring out different ideas, open up new avenues of thinking about what this
> discourse means. It is both exciting and frightening. It is something I
> don’t know if I can do (although even as part of the most privileged class
> in this society, a white male, I have been met with silence and it is
> painful and frightening and I cannot imagine how difficult it is for less
> privileged). I would hope to read more about Zaza’s ideas on voice. It
> sounds really fascinating and some of the other ideas that have been
> brought up (such as from Maxine), but can also understand holding back. I
> think Arturo’s message created new spaces, I hope people take the chance to
> fill them. I also wonder if the next crashing through boundaries will be
> purposeful. I don’t say this cavalierly. Institutional processes are
> incredibly hard and frustrating to change, if we can change them at all,
> and it is difficult to think of anything more institutional than academics.
>
>
>
> I have been researching #Defund the Police of late for a paper. This
> hashtag, I believe more than anything Black Lives Matter has done
> previously (and they have done a lot over the last seven years) crashed
> through the boundaries of acceptable, legitimate social discourse. It is
> amazing to consider the social hysteria these three simple words have
> created, and the avenues for understanding it has opened up. Although
> institutions certainly seem to have closed ranks against it, I think
> #Defund the Police will be pushing our actions and thinking for a while.
> All this is to say I think Arturo’s message and the spaces it has created
> is incredibly health for xmca and academia in general. We will see where we
> go from here.
>
>
>
> P.S.: Anna, thank you for your comments. Alfredo did respond to my
> frustration, on list and I believe individually. I agree with him that we
> want limited moderation, but what do you do in circumstances of privilege
> where people act unaware of their privilege (which I am certain I have done
> on more occasions than I care to remember).
>
>
>
> Michael
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On
> Behalf Of *Ksenia A. Korobkova
> *Sent:* Saturday, November 28, 2020 1:00 AM
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations?
>
>
>
> Hi Zaza,
>
>
>
> Just wanted to respond with gratitude toward your reframing and your
> sharing. This discussion went from breaks, territorialism, and attempts to
> repair to conversations about redesigning futures, and for hope, and
> equity. My parallel self that could stay/return to academia would find your
> voice retrieval article very valuable and my current not-academic self
> would love to hear it.
>
>
>
> Good vibes and thanks your way,
>
> Ksenia
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:05 PM Zaza Kabayadondo <
> zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you for offering up a risk in this community, Beth.
>
>
>
> I feel this too. It might in fact be one of the biggest risks because I
> experience this online and offline too (on teams in my work, in the
> classroom, even in my extended family). Being met with silence has the
> effect of making you feel as though your voice is not audible, does not
> exist. Erasure. I hope we can do some restorative work on this forum (and
> the other discourse communities we are in for that matter) so that we can
> find, welcome, embrace (and retrieve) those lost voices.
>
>
>
> Side note, retrieving lost voice is a cultural practice in Zimbabwe. I
> once worked on an article about that sensation of voicelessness but never
> published it because it felt too deeply personal or like something
> nobody would want to hear, talk about, or find valuable.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 3:32 PM Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Keeping at bay the deficit model takes a lot of time and energy, is all I
> mean.  B.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:27 PM Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Correction: We must of course fight in private and with a few
> select supporters -- but not ONLY this way, the fighting for this cause
> must also be demanded of all members -- and is there not a way to give some
> kind of credit for this labor that works towards tenure and promotion (a
> title?)? ... actually, that last is a serious question. Beth
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:10 PM Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Zara invited other risks -- Thank you for asking us all! -- I would like
> to add:
>
>
>
> 6.  "If I say something and there is only silence ... and then I say
> something else and there is only silence, again ... how will I remember
> that this is Not just the evidence I need to prove that I should have
> remained in another profession, where people understood me when I spoke?"
>
> *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we sustain our
> collective work to help all members to hold at bay the pernicious deficit
> model, never thinking that this is a battle we each must fight in private
> and alone, or with a few select supporters?  How do we help all of us to
> remember that this fight takes active and ongoing as well as collective
> work, and that for each success story against the odds we have lost 100's
> of voices -- and often the voices of those with the most valuable (as they
> are rare in the field) perspectives for the field?  Can we each be
> supported as long as necessary as we "learn to ride this particular kind
> of bike" (or adjust the bike so that we can ride it), providing only that
> we have the desire to try?
>
>
>
> #7. ??
>
>
>
> Beth
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 5:37 PM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>
> Wow! That is a really useful post, Zaza. I have bookmarked it.
>
> I think your suggestion to frame xmca in terms of "risk" is very
> productive.
> Thank you.
>
> andy
> ------------------------------
>
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.haymarketbooks.org/books/1484-hegel-for-social-movements__;!!Mih3wA!SBkmBkhWhBnjWkghRbECZoK90gYyR9xX7PrktzIstGwEZ2sa4rY9UyfIoQi8rpUwQ0cvqg$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!SBkmBkhWhBnjWkghRbECZoK90gYyR9xX7PrktzIstGwEZ2sa4rY9UyfIoQi8rpW1h-ftPQ$>
>
> On 28/11/2020 7:51 am, Zaza Kabayadondo wrote:
>
> I follow a lot of the discussions on xmca but rarely post. Despite many
> very warm invitations from Mike and others, I have only posted on this
> forum 3 times since joining in 2014. I read about 80% of the threads.
>
>
>
> So to the question, "isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type..."
> here's are my thoughts:
>
>
>
> I'm a millennial so I have been observing online discussion forum blowouts
> since I was about 16. People who look like me (black, female, immigrant)
> get trolled online all the time. I'm not saying xmca has trolls but I've
> become conditioned to worry about the risks of posting in any online forum.
> As a general rule it is safer not to get sucked in - to watch but not to
> get blood on my hands. I am only an active poster in groups where I trust
> the members and feel safe in, even when I don't know all the members. So
> what I asked myself what is it about xmca that makes me feel like I have to
> be super careful about what I post? What makes this group feel "unsafe" or
> "toxic". In other words, what makes it feel *risky* to post something on
> xmca? Below I've listed the 5 risks that I worry about. There are more,
> certainly, but I picked just the first few to start and paired them with
> some design questions I think we should be asking about how to design the
> community we want here.
>
>
>
> 1. "What is the context for this post? I think I get it but are we talking
> about the same thing?"
>
> *The design question we can ask ourselves**:* What can we do to provide
> better context, in a way that invites more members to add to an original
> post?
>
>
>
> 2. "I'm only marginally familiar with this topic, I'm curious but I won't
> ask questions but I don't have the energy to be "schooled" on this today." *The
> design questions we can ask ourselves:* How can we be argumentative,
> informative, without being toxic? What is the best way to engage novices
> and experts in this topic?
>
>
>
> 3. "Who else is out there, reading this? I don't know who I'm talking to
> except the 5 or so active members"
>
> *The design question we can ask ourselves:* What can we do as a community
> to learn more about each other, our work, and our domains of focus or ways
> of applying CHAT.
>
>
>
> 4. "If I post this will it turn into a long and laborious (unpleasant)
> email exchange? Am I ready for a fight in this space?"
>
> *The design question we can ask ourselves:* How do we bring critique
> without criticism? How do we sustain conversation without putting the
> burden on only the original poster?
>
>
>
> 5. "Dude, I don't read or speak Russian so I have nothing to say about the
> translation from the original."
>
> *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we get around the
> challenges of casual and virtual engagement; and the challenge of not
> knowing who this community is or if what I (each of us) can contribute will
> be valuable to the community.
>
>
>
> So this is why, for me, it's not so straightforward to say anyone can
> post. I'd love to see what other "risks" people have perceived. I'd also
> love to be part of doing something about addressing them, because I do
> think this forum has the potential to be an incredible community for more
> than just a handful of members.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 12:35 PM Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what he or she wishes and
> then click the Send button?
>
>
>
> This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is confusing to me.
>
>
>
> Maybe this is something only someone on the left can understand?
>
>
>
> If people want to post a comment, question, remark, new topic, etc, they
> should just do it. Who cares if it's not automatically received with open
> arms or agreement?  Isn't that half the fun?
>
>
>
> Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing in academia?
> Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching that level come with the freedom
> to speak openly? As one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these
> pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really counterproductive to me.
>
>
>
> Naively (I suppose),
>
>
>
> Anthony
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
> Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while.
>
> I, too, have been thinking about the long history of xmca's inability to
> create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn
>
> the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would conduct
> pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion
>
> for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen the
> correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know
>
> with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to
> enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a
>
> discourse practice that discourages participation from those who are
> intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some
>
> senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of recommendation for
> a scarce job.
>
>
>
> So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone else.
> The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo,
>
> covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought us the
> presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky and the
>
> tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are adept in,
> and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing educational
>
> practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a manner
> that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of desired
>
> pedagogical outcomes.
>
>
>
> Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did not
> spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and
>
> before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and designs of
> its creators.
>
>
>
> At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, written
> in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of xlchc, its
>
> transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca authors
> received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely because of
>
> the issues being raised here for the past week).
>
>
>
> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf__;!!KGKeukY!laokm2tCTWODUSU90aboqUJMKhKUIwJRCleKUwx6mzTpnGg5ODQGaTCeSf1DQoBLXbtVDER9$>
>
>
>
> There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when LCHC tried
> to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep
>
> former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other on a
> working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional
>
> that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. A lot of
> smart, experienced, people tried  (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, as we are
> witnessing.
>
> Time for the next generation to join the discussion.
>
>
>
> Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much.
>
>
>
> thanks for reading this far if you have!
>
> stay safe. take care
>
> mike  😷
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who lament,
> xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind
>
> bias
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip <Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu>
> wrote:
>
> dear Everyone:
>
>
>
> thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that individually
> referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, i'm reminded
> that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, that i've
> noticed.  only this time, the response is different in both quality and
> quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - which in my
> mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a newer and
> younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use of our
> shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly.
>
>
>
> as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on the
> spot - elicits the synonyms:
>
> embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - wither
> - show up.
>
>
>
> if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words of
> praise - for example: "Thank you for that question.  I myself have wondered
> about that evolution."
>
>
>
> i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they know
> why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they do
> does."
>
>
>
> in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in social
> gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a person
> of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of their own
> comfort level.  really, nothing was lost in translation.
>
>
>
> from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of both
> white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility.  and
> one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that those
> who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points of view
> that support white hetero-normative supremacy.  the burden for this should
> not be placed on those already socially marginalized.
>
>
>
> i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get their
> master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith
> Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography
> as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which
> Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back
> from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts
> with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read
> the ethnography.  my response was that since they had no experience, this
> was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students
> were, or their parents.  Yet within their classroom, or school community
> they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences.
>
>
>
> i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly complex topic.
>
>
>
> and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it was
> illuminating.
>
>
>
>  phillip
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> I[image: Image removed by sender. Angelus Novus]
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelus_Novus__;!!Mih3wA!S7fCXtTCVQWkCXnNSwdyFfFitd3dB8EuTUKFK0sSSJdSy8_M6BJohNdCkFQYltd7V6VOEQ$>The
> Angel's View of History
>
> The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside.  So
> organisms create the conditions of their own future
> which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin
>
> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!SPa321-GZ5HY7ae3wmaeN_u9ks700CRo6AM_RoECQgL49wf0jR8x4ajfhAuLNqCz7QWVNA$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!S7fCXtTCVQWkCXnNSwdyFfFitd3dB8EuTUKFK0sSSJdSy8_M6BJohNdCkFQYltd1dis3rA$>
>
> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/re-generatingchat.com__;!!Mih3wA!S7fCXtTCVQWkCXnNSwdyFfFitd3dB8EuTUKFK0sSSJdSy8_M6BJohNdCkFQYltesckucQg$>
>
> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/lchc.ucsd.edu__;!!KGKeukY!laokm2tCTWODUSU90aboqUJMKhKUIwJRCleKUwx6mzTpnGg5ODQGaTCeSf1DQoBLXWRmZpKV$>
> .
>
> Narrative history of LCHC:  lchcautobio.ucsd.edu
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/lchcautobio.ucsd.edu__;!!KGKeukY!laokm2tCTWODUSU90aboqUJMKhKUIwJRCleKUwx6mzTpnGg5ODQGaTCeSf1DQoBLXXprMvtN$>
> .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!SPa321-GZ5HY7ae3wmaeN_u9ks700CRo6AM_RoECQgL49wf0jR8x4ajfhAuLNqDubLjgtg$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!XqyD32PqUjrECjiznbMVU0BJd3EV7WR_MpV6AorPmT9jGyRTOd3p228sBZf1TP7e_DD-Hw$>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers)
> Associate Professor
>
> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
>
> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
>
>
>
> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center
>
> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, Jönköping
> University
>
>
>
> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>
> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address.
> Phone: (718) 951-5205
>
> Office: 2306 James Hall
>
> 2900 Bedford Avenue
> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers)
> Associate Professor
>
> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
>
> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
>
>
>
> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center
>
> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, Jönköping
> University
>
>
>
> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>
> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address.
> Phone: (718) 951-5205
>
> Office: 2306 James Hall
>
> 2900 Bedford Avenue
> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers)
> Associate Professor
>
> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
>
> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
>
>
>
> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center
>
> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, Jönköping
> University
>
>
>
> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>
> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address.
> Phone: (718) 951-5205
>
> Office: 2306 James Hall
>
> 2900 Bedford Avenue
> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!SPa321-GZ5HY7ae3wmaeN_u9ks700CRo6AM_RoECQgL49wf0jR8x4ajfhAuLNqDubLjgtg$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!SdHYGNC4p534j9pNr2cVxAguTdV8QP89w-dManESLxsah9Q9dCt30yIzB1NaykDH7A9elA$>
>
>
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