[Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations?

[Diana Arya]

Hello All,

I share similar feelings expressed by Maxine and Antti. I have often
wondered how many of us are members of this listserv, acknowledging that a
small yet consistent number of us consistently contribute to discussions. I
too have observed what I would characterize as heated philosophical
discussions that seem exclusive with no real entry point for inviting other
voices into the discussion. Like Maxine, I stayed with this listserv based
on my interests in CHAT and related theories, but I think that there is an
opportunity to broaden the kinds of interactions that could happen on this
listserv. Thank you, Alfredo, for your acknowledgement and for your support
in fostering a safer space within this listserv.

To build on Maxine's analysis of this most recent thread, I would like to
share a memoir that I'm currently reading--"I'm Still Here" by Austin
Channing Brown. Austin describes leading a program in Chicago designed to
help attendees unpack racial biases, and some groups fare better than
others in confronting their own racialized assumptions. Austin describes
how more effort is made to quell the anguish, guilt, or general discomfort
of attendees (who are predominantly white) than focusing on those who are
disenfranchised due to race, gender, linguistic differences, or the
combination of such. Some of the awful experiences described in this book
involves the incredulity and disdain expressed when attendees realize that
Austin is a Black woman in charge of the entire organization. The author
describes with great detail the burden of having to deal with a
well-intentioned, generally amiable white person who feels the need to
unload the guilt and sorrow from realizing one's racial bias, leaving Black
experiences and voices unexplored.

I hope that others in our group are willing to share what questions,
topics, and experiences we could discuss on this listserv. This could be an
exciting new chapter that brings in different voices from which we all can
benefit.

Best,
Diana

On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 1:45 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@ils.uio.no>
wrote:

>
>
> Thank you so much, Maxine, for your graceful contribution. I think that
> your turn (turn 10 in your analysis of the re-opening) does something else
> than taking «up Arturo’s (and Antti’s) bid for public discussion,
> highlight[ing] marginalization on listserv», which it does too. I think
> it does bring a scientific approach as a means to mediate the discussion,
> in the best possible sense I know of the word scientific: as a means to
> bring forth a better, mor just us.
>
>
>
> As someone who has in the past been condescending, patronizing, and
> otherwise have othered others in this listserv, without it having ever been
> my intention, I think a most important value in the scientific
> (sociocultural) approach that you have offered in your post/turn, Maxine,
> is that it allows us to understand the issues from a perspective that does
> not reduce the problem to (individual, personal) intentions, but looks at
> the concrete history of our listserv. It asks us to inquire into what sort
> of culture we have here in which these phenomena and ways of experiencing
> happen. I am sure no one here had the intention to hurt anyone, so the
> attempt to understand what sort of social context we are at and which these
> ways of hearing and responding to take place, is much more promising to
> bring good for all than an approach that looks for and reacts to
> (assumed/presumed) individuals’ intentions. We may not yet understand how
> to generate a more inclusive space in this list serve, but the truth that
> people (and not anyone but mostly people of color, women, femme-identified
> people, junior scholars) feel marginalized or threatened in this listserv,
> that people feel that way and respond accordingly even when no one intended
> this to be so, is no less true because we (anyone) did not intend it to be
> this way. It is a truth that, as CHAT scholars, we cannot ignore or deny,
> and I am in many ways glad that we have this opportunity here to explore
> what the issues are and how our shared interest in CHAT may help us bring
> us forward.
>
>
>
> As someone who has in the past unintendedly brought forth
> reactions/responses that were not easy to deal with in this list, and as
> someone who certainly others may have had a hard time to deal with, I want
> to thank everyone who has so far spoken in this thread, Beth, Antti, Andy,
> Anthony, Arturo, and anyone else who I may have missed to mention, for
> taking the courage it takes to bring this conversation forward. Thank you.
> I just hope to be able to contribute to generating a space/context in which
> everyone with the noble intention of participating in scholarly dialogue
> finds no threat and feels welcome to contribute.
>
>
>
> Alfredo
>
>
>
> *From: *<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Maxine McKinney de
> Royston <mckinneyderoyston@wisc.edu>
> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Date: *Wednesday, 25 November 2020 at 21:36
> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations?
>
>
>
> Thank you, Beth, for generously recognizing that we’ve all made the
> mistake before of having something that was private become unintentionally
> public.  I wish we would have heeded your call to not respond to the
> private elements of that email.  I don’t see the collective utility of personalizing
> its contents.  If anyone feels a specific way about that, Arturo has opened
> himself up to people contacting him directly.
>
>
>
> Thanks, Antti, for noting that this current situation reflects a pattern
> of marginalization on this listserv rather than an exceptional incident.  I
> want to take up Arturo’s invitation for further discussion with the hope
> that our discussions of this incident “will open up new ways for having
> dialogue in this space” (from Arturo’s email)
>
>
>
> I’d like to invite us to discuss the toxicity and marginalization that
> Arturo points to on this listserv.  As a Black woman based in the United
> States, I have stayed on this listserv over the years because of my
> interests in CHAT and sociocultural theories of teaching and learning.
> However, I rarely post on it because I often find the tone of the
> interlocuters here to be condescending, patronizing, and othering. For me,
> this is a sad irony....that the principles of CHAT that many of us study
> and advance in our scholarly endeavors is not carried through in our
> interpersonal exchanges on this listserv.  The recent exchange around the
> video offers a great opportunity to explore these issues.
>
>
>
> As analysts, I offer up a quick and dirty artifact through which to
> mediate our discussion. This is not a full analysis nor are the terms
> within it perfect; this is what I have constructed in the last 10 minutes.
> It is also not meant to critique people, rather to surface my
> interpretation of the interactional exchange and invite your wonderings and
> noticings.
>
>
>
> Initial interaction:
>
>    1. Andy—frames video
>    2. Arturo—reframes video and the course. Attends to the multiple
>    cultural meanings “putting someone on the spot” might have, with one being
>    implying an adversarial interaction
>    3. Antti—legitimizes Arturo’s reframing of video and course
>    4. Monica—legitimizes Arturo’s reframing of video
>    5. José—offers appreciation for Arturo’s reframing of video and course
>    6. Andy—apologizes for his framing of the video, clarifies his intent,
>    expresses he is “upset,” bids for listserv to return to the video
>
>
>
> Summary:  Interaction was initiated (Andy), repaired (multiple people),
> repair was accepted (Andy).  This could have ended here with the accepting
> of the repair by Andy.
>
>
>
> Re-opening of the interaction:
>
>    1. Anthony—rejects Andy’s bid to return to the video, delegitimizes
>    Arturo’s reframing of the video, legitimizes Andy’s framing of the video,
>    cites cross-cultural meanings, soothes and affirms Andy, bid
>    2. Beth—rejects Anthony’s cross-cultural framing, re-legitimizes
>    Arturo’s reframing, bids for understanding silencing and harm, legitimizes
>    Andy and Arturo’s contributions, bids for multiple understandings rather
>    than a unified shared understanding
>    3. Arturo—expresses publicly private concerns about silencing, racism,
>    and power dynamics on and off the listserv
>    4. Beth—bids for understanding and to disregard Arturo’s latest turn
>    5. Chuck—expresses interest in the video, does not mention prior
>    conflict, possibly makes a bid for a new exchange?
>    6. Arturo—apologizes for public comments, clarifies their private
>    nature, modifies Beth’s bid for disregarding the email and instead invites
>    public discussions of marginalization and private discussions about private
>    concerns/feelings
>    7. Anthony—rejects Beth’s bid to disregard, rejects Arturo’s bid for
>    private discussion about private concerns/feelings, highlights personal
>    attacks, protects and affirms Andy
>    8. Chuck—confirms their lack of a bid for a new exchange
>    9. Antti—legitimizes Arturo’s bid for public discussions of
>    marginalization
>    10. Maxine—takes up Arturo’s (and Antti’s) bid for public discussion,
>    highlights marginalization on listserv
>
>
>
> For me, the interactional moves happening here should give us pause.
> After some back and forth emails that legitimize Arturo’s reframing about
> the context and the nature of the video and the exchange, Andy apologies,
> clarifies his intent, and makes a bid to move on. That bid wasn’t taken
> up.  Instead, something interesting happens, a bid is made to legitimize
> and soothe Andy’s feelings about how his framing was understood.  This is
> interesting to me.  I wonder why this was necessary and why the
> delegitimizing of Arturo’s reframing had to be part of it.
>
>
>
> What do other’s wonder and notice about these interactions?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Maxine (first name) McKinney de Royston (last name)
>
> Assistant Professor, Curriculum & Instruction
>
> University of Wisconsin- Madison
>
> @profm_de_r
>
> Office hour scheduling:  calendly.com/mckinneyderoyston
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/calendly.com/mckinneyderoyston__;!!Mih3wA!QGKI3OlCAz47DHwCnkchsjQkhvg1xL9UcNdVqhaaOnHCp1Jp-dre-GxaD7suKa6wMmQ2Aw$>
>
>
>
> Co-editor of *The Handbook of the Cultural Foundations of Learning
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.routledge.com/Handbook-of-the-Cultural-Foundations-of-Learning/Nasir-Lee-Pea-Royston/p/book/9780415839051__;!!Mih3wA!QGKI3OlCAz47DHwCnkchsjQkhvg1xL9UcNdVqhaaOnHCp1Jp-dre-GxaD7suKa5HR-2f-A$>*
> (Routledge)
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of "ajrajala@gmail.com"
> <ajrajala@gmail.com>
> *Reply-To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 25, 2020 at 1:17 PM
> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations?
>
>
>
> Dear all,
>
>
>
> Anthony - I think there is not a permission to share the full video, as
> the clip was taken from the course material.
>
>
>
> I think it is important to see beyond this one conflict to a pattern in
> which many people feel marginalized from the conversation. Like Arturo, I
> also know a large number of people who opt out from participating in xmca
> because they feel that the way of communicating is hostile and exclusive.
> Certainly, there is no easy way to address and handle these contradictions
> in a constructive manner but these issues do deserve a discussion, I
> believe.
>
>
>
> Best wishes, Antti
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 at 20:36, Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thank you for your clarification, Arturo.
>
>
>
> I completely agree that the discussion henceforth should focus on the
> video at hand!
>
>
>
> If I may, however:
>
> Andy wrote the following, and yet was called a jerk, insignificant,
> powerless, etc: "I never intended my message to frame Anna's question as
> "adversarial." Of course it was genuine! It is also true that many people
> have been wanting an answer to this question and I meant to applaud Anna
> for posing the question to Yjro. As it happens Yrjo gave an excellent
> answer to the question. He both explained how it has led to unfortunate
> misunderstandings of which he was well aware, and the original, perfectly
> good meaning that the term has.  Obviously I am upset that what I intended
> as praise for Anna's action has been construed in this way. One lives, one
> learns. I am sorry. I hope now that xmca-ers who are interested in Yrjo's
> work will have a look at the video and maybe make a comment on it, and we
> will all have learnt."
>
> Myself, on the other hand?  Read my remarks as uncharitably as you'd like,
> if that's your preference, although that was certainly not my intent -- and
> you can slander me too if that feels good, publicly or privately, though I
> don't see why.
>
> But the insults toward Andy, who gives often and freely and who was simply
> sharing an interesting video discussion, were inaccurate and unnecessary.
>
> Happy Thanksgiving, and happy quarantining to those of us locked down
> during the holidays. 😷
>
> Anthony
>
> P.S. On a better note, I believe Monica Lemos has the full video that
> Charles asked about today.  Perhaps she can share it with any interested
> parties. Thank you.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 1:04 PM Arturo Cortez <cortez.arturo@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi, all.
>
>
>
> My apologies for sending out what was intended as a private message. One
> of the things that may not be known is that many people of color and
> femme-identified people in this group have off channel discussions about
> the participation in this space. I cannot speak for all, but there is a
> concern that xmca is hostile and toxic to us. What you saw was an extension
> of that conversation. Specifically, it was a message from another colleague
> asking how to provide support on this specific conversation.  My message
> was a full unfiltered expression of my frustration with how I, as a person
> of color and junior scholar, feel marginalized in this space.
>
>
>
> I’d like to invite any discussion from you all about this. But, in all
> honesty I’d like us to focus back on the discussion between Anna and Dr.
> Engeström.  Should others want to weigh in or speak with me personally feel
> free to private message me.
>
>
>
> Again, my deepest apologies. I hope this conversation will open up new
> ways for having dialogue in this space. In addition, I hope my inadvertent
> private message will highlight how some of us feel and have expressed in
> prior messages on this listserv. While brutally honest, this was an honest
> mistake; a colleague reminded me.
>
>
>
> With regards,
>
> Arturo
>
>
>
> *Arturo Cortez, PhD*
>
> Assistant Professor
>
> Teacher Learning, Research & Practice
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.colorado.edu/education/academics/graduate-programs/teacher-learning-research-practice__;!!Mih3wA!Wms1MwTQY1U9LeL4PxYaxFf3-zpw7tWFdagjOU1slyzkHdcsAefl9jrrashzVQ5O-PID0w$>
>
> Learning Sciences & Human Development
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>
> School of Education | UCB 249 | Room 314
>
> University of Colorado Boulder
>
> Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Territories
>
> 415.261.3155 (mobile)
>
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>
>
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> .
>
>
> On Nov 25, 2020, at 09:23, Arturo Cortez <cortez.arturo@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> For real!! Those fools ain’t worth your brilliance. But, real talk: did
> Anthony Barra say that I misunderstood because of my language and culture?
> That s**t is racist, if so.
>
>
>
> You doing alright? I need to figure out how to chill with you one day.
> Wish we lived closer, but I know we’ll figure it out.
>
>
>
> Lots of love to you and your family. Thank you for checking in. And let’s
> take a break from these jerks. I needed to make sure that student didn’t
> get framed in a messed up way and I assumed there would be blowback. If
> these fools had any power I’d be concerned. While their insignificance
> annoys me, it annoys me further that they think anything they say matters
> beyond their bubble and to that matter: I don’t think it is possible to
> engage them in any reflection as it is impossible for them to apologize. So
> check minus to them.
>
>
>
> Love you!!!
>
>
>
> Talk soon,
>
> Arturo
>
> *Arturo Cortez, PhD*
>
> Assistant Professor
>
> Teacher Learning, Research & Practice
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.colorado.edu/education/academics/graduate-programs/teacher-learning-research-practice__;!!Mih3wA!Wms1MwTQY1U9LeL4PxYaxFf3-zpw7tWFdagjOU1slyzkHdcsAefl9jrrashzVQ5O-PID0w$>
>
> Learning Sciences & Human Development
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.colorado.edu/education/academics/graduate-programs/learning-sciences-human-development__;!!Mih3wA!Wms1MwTQY1U9LeL4PxYaxFf3-zpw7tWFdagjOU1slyzkHdcsAefl9jrrashzVQ6mruWNzg$>
>
> School of Education | UCB 249 | Room 314
>
> University of Colorado Boulder
>
> Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Territories
>
> 415.261.3155 (mobile)
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cuboulder.zoom.us/my/arturocortez__;!!Mih3wA!WVxab0Oba4__CQo_mtOt-6Oo7V5QKAZv_PAe3Ov_ru1DVCAwBIuD19x5YApZzJlmzQxaeg$ 
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>
>
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> .
>
>
> On Nov 24, 2020, at 19:34, Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> You should not be upset, Andy, as there was nothing negative in the way
> you introduced that video.
>
>
>
> Sometimes, in cross-cultural settings, a phrase or two can translate in
> unexpected ways.  But that's a small price to pay, compared to the much
> larger benefits of an international community.
>
>
>
> Happily, everyone is back on the same page now.  So keep your head high.
>
>
>
> Anthony
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 7:11 PM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>
> I never intended my message to frame Anna's question as "adversarial." Of
> course it was genuine! It is also true that many people have been wanting
> an answer to this question and I meant to applaud Anna for posing the
> question to Yjro. As it happens Yrjo gave an excellent answer to the
> question. He both explained how it has led to unfortunate misunderstandings
> of which he was well aware, and the original, perfectly good meaning that
> the term has.
>
> Obviously I am upset that what I intended as praise for Anna's action has
> been construed in this way. One lives, one learns. I am sorry. I hope now
> that xmca-ers who are interested in Yrjo's work will have a look at the
> video and maybe make a comment on it, and we will all have learnt.
>
> andy
> ------------------------------
>
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.haymarketbooks.org/books/1484-hegel-for-social-movements__;!!Mih3wA!RUhJ0gxm82ec4ykziv0nkRnS3EwZY1riRVSIhrI3mWyIxNWiREL64wyOkWb1XJDTITTRwg$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!RUhJ0gxm82ec4ykziv0nkRnS3EwZY1riRVSIhrI3mWyIxNWiREL64wyOkWb1XJAOjgOt3Q$>
>
> On 25/11/2020 4:06 am, ARTURO CORTEZ wrote:
>
> Hi, Andy.
>
> Thanks for bringing this video to the attention of xmca. As a co-designer
> and participant in the course, I would frame this differently. Anna asked a
> genuine question that she (and others) had and was eager to learn more
> about 4th Gen from an expert, Dr. Engeström, who was very responsive. The
> class was a very generative space and I don’t recall an adversarial or
> confrontational instance (and I’ve analyzed the videos) during Yrjo’s talk
> or others. As someone who was there, I thought it was important to share
> this context.
>
>
> Best,
> Arturo
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 5:26 PM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>
> See the latest video clip on culturalpraxis.net
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!SMBCK4NdVc3wTnUqfXOE8xrQsFqmqjSiktLA1a_H3E_DwVPtzlpA_rLZSzR7oOmvGi5Uyw$>
> - a young researcher puts Yrjo on the spot with the question everyone has
> been asking: What's this with the "fourth generation"?
>
> Andy
>
>
> Victoria posted: "
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XijCqxkpHLU&feature=youtu.be__;!!Mih3wA!WVxab0Oba4__CQo_mtOt-6Oo7V5QKAZv_PAe3Ov_ru1DVCAwBIuD19x5YApZzJkU5B9YUw$  In this video
> Professor Yrjö Engeström responds to Anna Zarkh's question on the reasons
> to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical activity theory
> (CHAT). The piece is"
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=XijCqxkpHLU&feature=youtu.beInthisvideoProfessorYrj**AEngestr**AmrespondstoAnnaZarkh'squestiononthereasonstousethetermgenerationstoapproachcultural-historicalactivitytheory(CHAT).Thepieceis__;w7bDtg!!Mih3wA!W1RJpHlsXok4YNCf29WtYsjZIG0IOLfSBSgJN3hYfXPuhJ6MS6SS3QvdLBGeBuL9YfKbxA$>
>
>
> New post on *Cultural Praxis*
>
> [image: Image removed by sender.]
>
>
>
> [image: Image removed by sender.]
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/?author=7__;!!Mih3wA!W1RJpHlsXok4YNCf29WtYsjZIG0IOLfSBSgJN3hYfXPuhJ6MS6SS3QvdLBGeBuK2MU7hXw$>
> Why generations?
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/23/why-generations/__;!!Mih3wA!W1RJpHlsXok4YNCf29WtYsjZIG0IOLfSBSgJN3hYfXPuhJ6MS6SS3QvdLBGeBuIMXJWMOQ$>
>
> by Victoria
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/?author=7__;!!Mih3wA!W1RJpHlsXok4YNCf29WtYsjZIG0IOLfSBSgJN3hYfXPuhJ6MS6SS3QvdLBGeBuK2MU7hXw$>
>
> [image: Image removed by sender.]
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=XijCqxkpHLU&feature=youtu.be__;!!Mih3wA!W1RJpHlsXok4YNCf29WtYsjZIG0IOLfSBSgJN3hYfXPuhJ6MS6SS3QvdLBGeBuJIjNycAA$>
>
> In this video Professor Yrjö Engeström responds to Anna Zarkh's question
> on the reasons to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical
> activity theory (CHAT). The piece is an excerpt from the seminar "From CHAT
> to critical CHAT, organized by Professor Kris Gutierrez and Edward Rivero
> at University of California Berkeley (Spring 2020). The course was attended
> by roughly 50 scholars from various parts of the US and Europe.
>
> Go to our Youtube Library
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.youtube.com/channel/UC7vDvqVINUOM831GgAGwGlA/playlists__;!!Mih3wA!W1RJpHlsXok4YNCf29WtYsjZIG0IOLfSBSgJN3hYfXPuhJ6MS6SS3QvdLBGeBuLngjzk5Q$> for
> longer interviews and presentations by distinguished CHAT scholars and
> educators.
>
> *Victoria
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/?author=7__;!!Mih3wA!W1RJpHlsXok4YNCf29WtYsjZIG0IOLfSBSgJN3hYfXPuhJ6MS6SS3QvdLBGeBuK2MU7hXw$>*
> | November 23, 2020 at 6:16 pm | Categories: Video Series: Join the
> discussion
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> | URL: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/?p=727__;!!Mih3wA!WVxab0Oba4__CQo_mtOt-6Oo7V5QKAZv_PAe3Ov_ru1DVCAwBIuD19x5YApZzJmj0vyr1A$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/?p=727__;!!Mih3wA!W1RJpHlsXok4YNCf29WtYsjZIG0IOLfSBSgJN3hYfXPuhJ6MS6SS3QvdLBGeBuLQY-RWIw$>
>
> Comment
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-- 
*Nothing can be changed until it is faced. *(James Baldwin)

Diana J. Arya, PhD
she/her/hers/they/them/theirs
Associate Professor and Graduate Diversity Officer, Education
Faculty Director, McEnroe Reading and Language Arts Clinic
Gevirtz Graduate School of Education
University of California, Santa Barbara
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