From rslguzzo@gmail.com Sun Nov 1 09:54:00 2020 From: rslguzzo@gmail.com (Raquel Guzzo) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 14:54:00 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Video series: Join the discussion In-Reply-To: <5073ff8a-2668-cfff-974a-3cb89c4c3487@marxists.org> References: <5073ff8a-2668-cfff-974a-3cb89c4c3487@marxists.org> Message-ID: Great! Thank you! *Dra. Raquel S. L. Guzzo;P?s-gradua??o em Psicologia;Centro de Ci?ncias da Vida;Pontif?cia Universidade Cat?lica de Campinas;* * * *rguzzo@puc-campinas.edu.br rguzzo@pq.cnpq.br rslguzzo@gmail.com * * https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lattes.cnpq.br/8863163152848405*__;Kg!!Mih3wA!TWEL0dLagLxI0Qrim534TYscVD4BL8G_QHw60pEtO7PDTp1xzxiTUanbQP3bdRue550zZw$ *https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://gep-inpsi.org__;!!Mih3wA!TWEL0dLagLxI0Qrim534TYscVD4BL8G_QHw60pEtO7PDTp1xzxiTUanbQP3bdRuXhRVR9g$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://orcid.org/0000-0002-7029-2913__;!!Mih3wA!TWEL0dLagLxI0Qrim534TYscVD4BL8G_QHw60pEtO7PDTp1xzxiTUanbQP3bdRss-pES2w$ * Em seg., 5 de out. de 2020 ?s 11:08, Andy Blunden escreveu: > Hey, XMCA-ers, the Cultural Praxis website has created a new forum to > enable critical dialogue on CHAT topics. > > See https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/video-series-join-the-discussion/__;!!Mih3wA!TWEL0dLagLxI0Qrim534TYscVD4BL8G_QHw60pEtO7PDTp1xzxiTUanbQP3bdRu2l3CNVQ$ > > - there is a 2 minute video (this one's from Natalia Gajdamaschko) and > we're invited to comment on it. The videos are excepts taken out of longer > interviews or lectures, and just a couple of minutes have been selected for > discussion. The clip will be replaced by a new one regularly to keep the > discussion moving along. Please have a look and make a comment if you can. > > Andy > -- > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201101/ae95fe34/attachment.html From yrjo.engestrom@helsinki.fi Mon Nov 2 01:53:57 2020 From: yrjo.engestrom@helsinki.fi (=?utf-8?B?RW5nZXN0csO2bSwgWXJqw7YgSCBN?=) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 09:53:57 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] RESET/CRADLE Online Seminar 2 on November 9 Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Please find below the information on the second seminar of RESET/CRADLE Online Seminar Series 2020-2021?Changing Activities and Formative Interventions: Vulnerable Lives and Power.? The seminar is open to all registered participants through a link sent after registration. Doctoral students are also welcome to attend: attending one seminar (with active participation in the discussion and a reflection written text on the contents and readings of the seminar) corresponds to 1 ECTS. Let?s have another great seminar! Annalisa Sannino, Tampere University, annalisa.sannino@tuni.fi Yrj? Engestr?m, University of Helsinki, yrjo.engestrom@helsinki.fi November 9, 2020 (Monday) 17AM-19AM Tampere/Helsinki; 9AM-11AM Madison ?Decolonizing Agency: Future-making with Indigenous Communities? Aydin Bal, Department of Rehabilitation Psychology and Special Education University of Wisconsin-Madison Aaron Bird Bear, Tribal Relations, Office of University Relations & Division of Extension, University of Wisconsin-Madison REGISTER HERE FOR THE NOV.9 SEMINAR! Abstract Settler colonialism strives for the dissolution of Indigenous societies by establishing a new colonial society on seized land with the elimination of Indigenous people as an organizing principle. In the United States, education has been used as a tool for downward assimilation with the widespread use of boarding schools until the late twentieth century that separated American Indianchildren from their families and communities, cut their hair and forbid them to speak their languages or practice customs, forced them to learn English and practice Christianity, leading to cultural genocide that current generations still carry. Today, Indigenous students are more likely to receive harsher discipline more frequently than white counterparts. Exclusionary discipline may result in adverse academic and life outcomes. At this seminar, we will present a longitudinal formative intervention study, Indigenous Learning Lab, implemented at Northwoods High School through a coalition of an Ojibwe Nation, the Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction, the Wisconsin Indian Education Association, and a research center at a local university. The aim of the intervention was to design and implement a new, inclusive school-wide behavioral support systems where Indigenous students? cultural identity, agency, ingenuity, and joy are fostered in order to address violence and disparities American Indian students faced at Northwoods High. The city where the school is located was the epicenter of Wisconsin?s Anti-Indian movement of the 1990s, refereed as Walleye War. Tribal members were physically attacked or prevented from practicing their treaty-guaranteed harvesting rights on lands ceded in treaties with the U.S. government. As they harvested walleye fish, tribal members risked injury as they encountered hostile crowds of local White men, women, and children who threw rocks and other objects and held signs that said, ?Spear an Indian! Save a Walleye,? and ?Spear a Pregnant Squaw. Save Two Walleye.? An Indigenous Learning Lab member remembers seeing his teachers at the boat landings, shouting and throwing objects at his family on the weekend--then having to face them on Monday morning in the high school. In the last decade, the school administrators and teachers strived to develop positive and reciprocal relationships with the Ojibwe community, including indigenous cultural practices and addressing disparate academic outcomes that Indigenous youth experience at the school. As a result, they decided to implement Indigenous Learning Lab in order to address discipline disparities with Ojibwe students, parents, and educators. Over the 11 meetings in the 2019-2020 academic year, eight Indigenous community members (three students, two parents, two teachers, and one government member) worked with six non-Indigenous school staff and a research team including Indigenous and non-Indigenous scholars from a local university. As decolonizing methodology, Indigenous Learning Lab honors the sovereignty of the Ojibwe Nation and followed three epistemological principles: Respect, revitalization, andreconciliation.The members examined their discipline system and designed a new system that is responsive to diverse and often conflicting histories, interests, resources, and goals. We will discuss how local school community members expanded individual agency to transformative agency and engaged in future-making. Indigenous Learning Lab is a part of a multi-site formative intervention project, called Learning Lab. Learning Lab is an inclusive knowledge-production and systemic design process at schools adopted from the Change Laboratory methodology. Learning Lab contributes to the fourth generation of CHAT. Learning Labs have been implemented since 2012 at 11 public schools at four school districts in the states of Wisconsin and Florida in USA, including a school district serving an Ojibwe Nation, to design culturally responsive school-wide behavioral support systems to address the racial disparities. This academic year, a Learning Lab will be implemented in Rio, Brazil at a special education school for blind students in designing an inclusive curriculum for teaching students with multiple disabilities. In addition, five Learning Labs will be implemented at public schools in the U.S. to address the racial disproportionality through culturally responsive school-wide multi-tiered behavioral support systems with students, parents, teachers, staff, community members, NGOs, school and district leadership, especially those from historically marginalized communities. We will discuss the implications of Indigenous Learning Lab for researchers, practitioners, and policy makers who are interested in partnering with Indigenous and historically marginalized communities through the fourth generation of CHAT and formative interventions. Bios of the presenters Aydin Balis a professor of education at UW-Madison. His research focuses the social justice issues in education, family-school-community-university collaboration, systemic transformation, and expansive learning. He has conducted multisite formative interventions to address the racialization of disability. As a practitioner and researcher, Dr. Bal has worked with youth from minoritized communities and refugees experiencing academic and behavioral problems in schools, hospitals, and prisons from the United States, Turkey, South Sudan, Syria, the Russian Federation, and Ojibwe Nation. Aaron Bird Bear(Mandan, Hidatsa, and Din?, enrolled Three Affiliated Tribes of Fort Berthold Indian Reservation) was appointed as the inaugural Tribal Relations Director at the UW-Madison in 2019. Bird Bear previously served as Assistant Dean for Student Diversity Programs in the UW-Madison School of Education. Bird Bear joined UW-Madison in 2000 to support the retention and graduation of indigenous students. In 2009, Bird Bear began supporting historically underrepresented students in the School of Education, and in 2012, Bird Bear began supporting the School?s efforts to integrate First Nations Studies into public PK?16 education, creating the educator resource wisconsinfirstnations.org. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201102/c6bdd81d/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Mon Nov 2 02:47:52 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 21:47:52 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: New video on Culturalpraxis.net In-Reply-To: <8c62b0e4-b0e5-5396-644d-7e0e7c06c60e@marxists.org> References: <8c62b0e4-b0e5-5396-644d-7e0e7c06c60e@marxists.org> Message-ID: <58c8895b-5a4b-b797-05b0-4f7eaeda5f01@marxists.org> In this weeks edition, we have a compilation of responses to the question: "What Are Concepts, and How Might They Be?Taught? " featuring some well-known participants on XMCA: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/02/what-are-concepts-and-how-might-they-be-taught/__;!!Mih3wA!Uj-oN8zAngm1ZxGVwQJNMSa-RA_FXIyN3loKGDQjcYIHS1Sd1IKky0ABdFgzw89waM36cw$ You are all welcome to comment. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 27/10/2020 11:11 am, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Dear XMCA-ers! > > The Cultural Praxis website has set up a new forum to > promote the discussion about CHAT ideas. Every week or so > there will be a new video clip excerpted from a longer > interview or lecture, and there are comment boxes inviting > people to comment on, discuss and ask questions about the > clip. > > This week we have a video from a talk by Professor > Annalisa Sannino > , > ?The contributions of formative interventions and > Cultural-Historical Activity theory in the context of > contemporary work? that?she gave together with Professor > Yrj? Engestr?m last Friday.? The event was?organized by > the Faculty of Public Health, University of S?o Paulo. > > Please have a look and maybe leave a comment if you have a > moment. The video is only 3 minutes long. > > Warm?regards, > > Ivana Guarrasi, Monica Lemos, Andy Blunden, Anthony > Barra,Victoria Aanonsen > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201102/2dbb7b55/attachment.html From ajrajala@gmail.com Thu Nov 5 09:16:25 2020 From: ajrajala@gmail.com (Antti Rajala) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 19:16:25 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Nominate candidates for the 2021 Cultural-Historical Research SIG Awards Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, (apologies for cross-posting and please feel free to spread the word) On behalf of the AERA Cultural-Historical Research SIG (CH SIG), we are asking your advice to nominate candidates for the 2021 Cultural-Historical Research SIG Awards. These awards recognize our members? scholarly contributions to research grounded in cultural-historical, sociocultural and activity theoretic approaches in the following three categories: 1. Graduate Student Award 2. Early Career Award 3. Lifetime Contribution Award Please see the attached Call for Nominations for more descriptions about each award, including details about the nomination process. The Call is also available below. Importantly, *all *required nomination materials must be submitted to the 2021 Award Committee Chair, Antti Rajala, antti.rajala@oulu.fi by *December 20, 2020. *The committee will make its selection by January 20, 2021. Nominators must be members of the CH SIG. Please email general questions regarding the awards to the 2021 Award Committee Chair, Antti Rajala, antti.rajala@oulu.fi. Thank you and best regards, AERA Cultural-Historical Award Committee and SIG *Graduate Student Award of AERA Cultural-Historical Research SIG* The Graduate Student Award recognizes an outstanding work of original and independent research produced by a graduate student, either as doctoral research or pre-doctoral research. Please note the following conditions of the call: *Eligibility Criteria: *Nominees must be enrolled in a university doctoral program. *Nomination Process and Timeline: *The nominator must be a member of the CH SIG and must submit a brief statement justifying the nomination, along with electronic contact information for the nominee. Upon receipt of the nomination, the Chair of the Awards Committee will request an abstract from the nominee. The nominee should submit an abstract of 1000 words or fewer of the work to be considered. Depending on the number of nominations, a sub-set of 3 nominees may be asked to submit a paper of no more than 5000 words that will be submitted for the committee?s final selection. *The nominations should be sent by email to theAward Committee Chair, Antti Rajala, **antti.rajala@oulu.fi* *The deadline for the nominations is December 20, 2020. *The committee will make its selection by January 20, 2021. *Composition of the Awards Committee: *The SIG Chair has appointed the three members of the Awards Committee.The committee is chaired by Dr. Antti Rajala (University of Oulu, Finland). The other members are Dr. Zitlali Morales (University of Illinois Chicago, USA) and Dr. Aria Razfar (University of Illinois Chicago, USA). *Selection Criteria: *The awardee will have created an outstanding work of original and independent research as either as doctoral research or pre-doctoral research. The winner will be given a plaque with an inscription to be presented at the SIG business meeting at the AERA annual meeting and invited to make a presentation at a SIG-sponsored session of the annual meeting. Announcement of the Awardee will be made through email to SIG members, on the SIG Facebook page, and at the SIG business meeting at the AERA annual meeting. Contact Person for the Award: 2021 Award Committee Chair, Antti Rajala, antti.rajala@oulu.fi *Early Career Award of AERA Cultural-Historical Research SIG* The Early Career Award acknowledges the contribution of one person, or co-authors, who have contributed a piece of work, for example, a book chapter, a research article or a monograph, that 1) moves the field of CHAT research or theory in a particularly interesting direction, 2) elaborates a concept or set of concepts in a particularly helpful way, or 3) provides links across research and practice that prove foundational. This award should be given to individuals who are at least 3 years past completion of the doctoral degree. Please note the following conditions of the call: *Eligibility Criteria: *This award should be given to individuals who are at least three years past completion of the doctoral degree. *Nomination Process and Timeline: *The candidate must be nominated by a member of the SIG and seconded by another member. The nominator (and/or seconder) should submit a copy of the piece of work to be considered along with a statement justifying the nomination. *The nominations should be sent by email to theAward Committee Chair, Antti Rajala, **antti.rajala@oulu.fi* *The deadline for the nominations is December 20, 2020. *The committee will make its selection by January 20, 2021. *Composition of the Awards Committee: *The SIG Chair has appointed the three members of the Awards Committee. The committee is chaired by Dr. Antti Rajala (University of Oulu, Finland). The other members are Dr. Zitlali Morales (University of Illinois Chicago, USA) and Dr. Aria Razfar (University of Illinois Chicago, USA). *Selection Criteria: *Awardee should have contributed a piece of work such as a book chapter, research article or monograph, that moves CHAT research or theory in a particularly interesting direction, elaborates a concept or set of concepts in a particularly helpful way, and/or provides links across research and practice that prove foundational. The winner will be given a plaque with an inscription to be presented at the SIG business meeting at the AERA annual meeting and invited to make a presentation at a SIG-sponsored session of the annual meeting. Announcement of the Awardee will be made through email to SIG members, on the SIG Facebook page, and at the SIG business meeting at the AERA annual meeting. Contact Person for the Award: 2021 Award Committee Chair, Antti Rajala, antti.rajala@oulu.fi *Lifetime Contribution Award of AERA Cultural Historical Research SIG* The Lifetime Contribution to Cultural-Historical Research Award acknowledges the contribution of one person, over the course of his/her career, to the Cultural-Historical Research field as reflected in foundational books, series of publications, lectures, conference presentations, grants, speeches, and important engagement with the field broadly speaking including outreach and service. Please note the following conditions of the call: *Eligibility Criteria: *Anyone who fits the above definition. *Nomination Process and Timeline: *The candidate must be nominated by a member of the SIG. Nomination packets should include a letter of nomination and a copy of the candidate?s CV. All nominations should be submitted electronically. *The nominations should be sent by email to the Award Committee Chair, Antti Rajala, **antti.rajala@oulu.fi* *The deadline for the nominations is December 20, 2020. *The committee will make its selection by January 20, 2021. *Composition of the Awards Committee: *The SIG Chair has appointed the three members of the Awards Committee. The committee is chaired by Dr. Antti Rajala (University of Oulu, Finland). The other members are Dr. Zitlali Morales (University of Illinois Chicago, USA) and Dr. Aria Razfar (University of Illinois Chicago, USA). *Selection Criteria:*The career body of work of a nominee will be evaluated according to its impact as measured by volume and influence of foundational books, series of publications, lectures, conference presentations, grants, speeches, and important engagement with the field broadly speaking including outreach and service, and impact on educational practice. A plaque with an inscription will be awarded. The winner will give an invited talk in the SIG?s annual meeting program at the following year?s AERA meeting. Announcement of the Awardee will be made through email to SIG members, on the SIG Facebook page, and at the SIG business meeting at the AERA annual meeting. Contact Person for the Award: 2021 Award Committee Chair, Antti Rajala, antti.rajala@oulu.fi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201105/4e57b6b5/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CH SIG 2021 Awards.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 105783 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201105/4e57b6b5/attachment.pdf From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Fri Nov 6 15:47:25 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 18:47:25 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] xmca is lively and good Message-ID: Some recent conversation at the Cultural Praxis site has speculated that xmca-based discourse is waning (e.g., https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bit.ly/369A8d6__;!!Mih3wA!SccwXMds5fqIIEhwR3l8JTMhNvb5Mwx70_isLi1atVDVZ0r88FJDKnQBJ8MQu57_fMfowA$ ). But I don't think that is true -- not that I have much insight, history, or standing to observe confidently. But the xmca list is rather epic -- bigger by far than any single participant and actually a marvel in various ways. Simply peek through the archives, as I often do, to find proof positive. This is 100% correct, is it not? Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201106/ca919fb7/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Nov 6 16:47:13 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 17:47:13 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca is lively and good In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2A70EC36-7D85-428D-8455-62C73C7CE028@gmail.com> Anthony, My involvement in the dialog waxes and wanes, having more to do with what goes on outside of the chat than within it. I think the videos have been great. I took a half hour to watch the latest and was rewarded with connecting more dots. Just a peek. David K. said in his latest video that we will need another 100 years to connect them all. It is ?rather epic? as you say. A marvel. Henry > On Nov 6, 2020, at 4:47 PM, Anthony Barra wrote: > > Some recent conversation at the Cultural Praxis site has speculated that xmca-based discourse is waning (e.g., https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bit.ly/369A8d6__;!!Mih3wA!VGfwzyCnvQCPJ5bZvpIl3OaGLbQPOlilkRXBEQrGycQddHII8352MjzWVf5j3CacdAjDpw$ ). But I don't think that is true -- not that I have much insight, history, or standing to observe confidently. > > But the xmca list is rather epic -- bigger by far than any single participant and actually a marvel in various ways. Simply peek through the archives, as I often do, to find proof positive. > > This is 100% correct, is it not? > > Anthony > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201106/ece80aa7/attachment.html From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Fri Nov 6 17:43:20 2020 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 20:43:20 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [External] xmca is lively and good In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You are absolutely correct Anthony! Your intergenerational dialogues and interviews have truly been refreshing and richly informative. Thank-you! *Robert Lake* On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 6:50 PM Anthony Barra wrote: > Some recent conversation at the Cultural Praxis site has speculated that > xmca-based discourse is waning (e.g., https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bit.ly/369A8d6__;!!Mih3wA!Ww5lc7zYPxctEl08fSI4STw4mssOkt3n1dYKR_Zk9Q2TC9GcwABQ6090bvHB2pzTDnM8tQ$ > ). > But I don't think that is true -- not that I have much insight, history, or > standing to observe confidently. > > But the xmca list is rather epic -- bigger by far than any single > participant and actually a marvel in various ways. Simply peek through the > archives, as I often do, to find proof positive. > > This is 100% correct, is it not? > > Anthony > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201106/50e1ed05/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Mon Nov 9 17:31:35 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 20:31:35 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Vygotsky for The People? Message-ID: Hello! Here is a chance for some good fun ~ How would you describe Vygotsky's work in simple terms -- for regular people, in a way that's useful and also preserves the key elements? It might be easier said than done! That is certainly the case for me. Somebody smart (Einstein? Feynman?) once said, "If you can't explain it simply, then you don't understand it well enough." But TRYING to explain it simply is definitely half of the fun. Please pop over to the latest video discussion at CulturalPraxis for a fun (and useful!) audience-participation question: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/09/an-audience-participation-question-lets-have-some-fun/__;!!Mih3wA!QhthPvE03t4zwykwgCGpjbpGE7oHQQpPofXUeRldb0AToGR4LKj-HgcM_L3wpE_35vEntg$ Many people will benefit from your participation ~ Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201109/7ffdb512/attachment.html From bella.kotik@gmail.com Mon Nov 9 23:20:35 2020 From: bella.kotik@gmail.com (Bella Kotik-Friedgut) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 09:20:35 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky for The People? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Listening to Peter Smagorinsky, I decided to share my experience of writing for a nonprofessional audience. I can recommend working with a professional journalist. I was lucky to meet such a coauthor-journalist Polina Solowey to write a book "How to learn languages successfully" (In Russian). I was speaking while she was writing. Unfortunately our collaboration was tragically short, but I learned a lot from her, so now I prepared for Russia a seriously expanded third edition. Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 3:34 AM Anthony Barra wrote: > Hello! Here is a chance for some good fun ~ > > How would you describe Vygotsky's work in simple terms -- for regular > people, in a way that's useful and also preserves the key elements? > > It might be easier said than done! That is certainly the case for me. > > Somebody smart (Einstein? Feynman?) once said, "If you can't explain it > simply, then you don't understand it well enough." > > But TRYING to explain it simply is definitely half of the fun. > > Please pop over to the latest video discussion at CulturalPraxis for a fun > (and useful!) audience-participation question: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/09/an-audience-participation-question-lets-have-some-fun/__;!!Mih3wA!X0e0p77nhdN1m2spdOhRwwOxnpAG4WC_AOrzamwMO0FoopDat6t0PEegT_QKSrXg8M-dSQ$ > > > Many people will benefit from your participation ~ > > Thank you. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201110/33f87eb8/attachment.html From anamshane@gmail.com Wed Nov 18 10:54:13 2020 From: anamshane@gmail.com (Ana Marjanovic-Shane) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 18:54:13 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: University of Students survey References: Message-ID: Dear XMCA friends, I am forwarding an invitation to answer a survey about your interest in the University of the Students (see description below). If interested or intrigued, please participate in the survey! ? I hope you are all well and safe, all around the world! Ana Ana Marjanovic-Shane Independent Scholar Emails: anamshane@gmail.com amshane@udel.edu Phone: +1-267-334-2905 Recent book: Matusov, E., Marjanovic-Shane, A., & Gradovski, M. (2019). Dialogic pedagogy and polyphonic research art: Bakhtin by and for educators, doi: 10.1057/978-1-137-58057-3. New York: Palgrave Macmillan. From: "osedu@googlegroups.com" on behalf of Eugene Matusov Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 1:45 PM To: "OSE (OSEdu@googlegroups.com)" Subject: University of Students survey Dear Open Syllabus Education folks? We want to invite you to participate in a 10-min survey about your potential interest in establishing the University of Students (UniS) and forward this invitation to those (people or organizations) who might be interesting. Our concept of the University of Students is based on the idea that a student the author of their own education. A student has an unalienated and sovereign right to freedom of education: to decide whether to study, what to study, how to study, with whom to study, when to study, where to study, why to study, what is good education, and so on. This decision-making can be done by the student-author alone, with peer students, and/or with a pedagogue. The University of Students exists for the students, by the students, through the students. According to our vision, the University of Students involves a rich learning environment. When you join the University of Students, you will have diverse opportunities for socializing with people of similar and different interests and expertise, for observation of and participation in many diverse activities and dialogues, for starting new projects, and for diverse sources of help, if you need any, -- all to support you self-education. The University of Students is not new, it existed in diverse forms for about 300 years in Southern Europe (https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.historytoday.com/alan-b-cobban/student-power-middle-ages__;!!Mih3wA!TjWRwLkHMcrsogVEQaW4foQstNnZfYrcVIok3iRpKvIl7P8gwVIu3_txY5OleDyHAifmAQ$ ). The University of Students will provide ample opportunities for the creative professional implementation of educators and experts. There will be no educational standards, compulsory curricula, mandatory exams issued "from the top" (administrations) or "from the side" (colleagues), and there will be no need to write a huge number of reports on their work. According to our vision of UniS, an educator becomes a real educator when they are in demand by a student. At the University of Students, the student themselves determines and goes through their educational trajectory. At the same time, the student can be completely independent, or they can turn to an educator for help, who becomes for the student a guide -- a guide in the student's own educational journey. The educational process at the University of Students is a common cause of all its participants, based on the principles of cooperation, mutual respect, and goodwill. If you are interested in the resurrection of and participation in this enterprise, please take the survey: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://delaware.ca1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_0feGjXCQPh8fNTT__;!!Mih3wA!TjWRwLkHMcrsogVEQaW4foQstNnZfYrcVIok3iRpKvIl7P8gwVIu3_txY5OleDxxlZOBzg$ . Also, please, forward this email to whoever might be interested regardless of their age (especially prospective UoS students). The purpose of this survey to check if there is enough public interest in the University of Students. Let us know, please, if you have any questions. Our best, Artyom Fyodorov, a founder of the democratic school SOVUM, Tver', Russia, fedorov.artem.n@gmail.com Eugene Matusov, Professor of Education, University of Delaware, USA, ematusov@udel.edu 18 November 2020 ---------------------------- Eugene Matusov, PhD Pronouns: he/him/his Editor-in-Chief, Dialogic Pedagogy Journal Professor of Education School of Education 16 W Main st University of Delaware Newark, DE 19716, USA Publications: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://ematusov.soe.udel.edu/vita/publications.htm__;!!Mih3wA!TjWRwLkHMcrsogVEQaW4foQstNnZfYrcVIok3iRpKvIl7P8gwVIu3_txY5OleDyFodCZEg$ DiaPed: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://diaped.soe.udel.edu__;!!Mih3wA!TjWRwLkHMcrsogVEQaW4foQstNnZfYrcVIok3iRpKvIl7P8gwVIu3_txY5OleDyoYf-OYw$ DPJ Facebook: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.facebook.com/groups/DPJ.two/__;!!Mih3wA!TjWRwLkHMcrsogVEQaW4foQstNnZfYrcVIok3iRpKvIl7P8gwVIu3_txY5OleDwBUxKA1A$ Recent books: Matusov, E., Marjanovic-Shane, A., & Gradovski, M. (2019). Dialogic pedagogy and polyphonic research art: Bakhtin by and for educators, doi: 10.1057/978-1-137-58057-3. New York: Palgrave Macmillan. Matusov, E. (2020). Envisioning education in a post-work leisure-based society: A dialogic perspective, doi: 10.1007/978-3-030-46373-1. New York: Palgrave. ?Truth seeks it's own Limitations and goes hand-to-hand with Doubt. Otherwise, it becomes a self-righteous Cult. Totalitarianism starts when Justice tramps Truth.? ?Liberties ensure the rights of people we do not like.? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Open Syllabus Education" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to OSEdu+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/OSEdu/MN2PR10MB385613F786F57451CFB27FDDBAE10*40MN2PR10MB3856.namprd10.prod.outlook.com__;JQ!!Mih3wA!TjWRwLkHMcrsogVEQaW4foQstNnZfYrcVIok3iRpKvIl7P8gwVIu3_txY5OleDw9UG2Beg$ . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201118/2d33b4b6/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Thu Nov 19 03:00:23 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 06:00:23 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] "Why this Video Series?" - Ivana Guarassi Message-ID: Please enjoy "Why this Video Series?" -- a succinct, 84-second introduction/invitation: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/18/why-this-video-series/__;!!Mih3wA!TMXH-zeKLhaeCZxKAPc2Y5rW5iXujfQ1d2oviKgTUYXBtw3SCLqJEYGF7fRi15tiyGvFxw$ The full series, still in its infancy but growing nicely, is located at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/category/video-series-join-the-discussion/__;!!Mih3wA!TMXH-zeKLhaeCZxKAPc2Y5rW5iXujfQ1d2oviKgTUYXBtw3SCLqJEYGF7fRi15toKkloQA$ Collaboration, critiques, and contributions are most welcome. Thank you for visiting and for sharing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201119/e10519d0/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Mon Nov 23 16:24:42 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 11:24:42 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> Message-ID: See the latest video clip on culturalpraxis.net - a young researcher puts Yrjo on the spot with the question everyone has been asking: What's this with the "fourth generation"? Andy WordPress.com Victoria posted: " https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XijCqxkpHLU&feature=youtu.be__;!!Mih3wA!W1RJpHlsXok4YNCf29WtYsjZIG0IOLfSBSgJN3hYfXPuhJ6MS6SS3QvdLBGeBuJIjNycAA$ In this video Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question on the reasons to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical activity theory (CHAT). The piece is" New post on *Cultural Praxis* Why generations? by Victoria In this video Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question on the reasons to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical activity theory (CHAT). The piece is an excerpt from the seminar "From CHAT to critical CHAT, organized by Professor Kris Gutierrez and Edward Rivero at University of California Berkeley (Spring 2020). The course was attended by roughly 50 scholars from various parts of the US and Europe. Go to our Youtube Library ?for longer interviews and presentations by distinguished CHAT scholars and educators. *Victoria * | November 23, 2020 at 6:16 pm | Categories: Video Series: Join the discussion | URL: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/?p=727__;!!Mih3wA!W1RJpHlsXok4YNCf29WtYsjZIG0IOLfSBSgJN3hYfXPuhJ6MS6SS3QvdLBGeBuLQY-RWIw$ Comment See all comments Unsubscribe to no longer receive posts from Cultural Praxis. Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions . *Trouble clicking?* Copy and paste this URL into your browser: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/23/why-generations/__;!!Mih3wA!W1RJpHlsXok4YNCf29WtYsjZIG0IOLfSBSgJN3hYfXPuhJ6MS6SS3QvdLBGeBuIMXJWMOQ$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201124/2eae3217/attachment.html From cortez@berkeley.edu Tue Nov 24 09:06:44 2020 From: cortez@berkeley.edu (ARTURO CORTEZ) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 10:06:44 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> Message-ID: Hi, Andy. Thanks for bringing this video to the attention of xmca. As a co-designer and participant in the course, I would frame this differently. Anna asked a genuine question that she (and others) had and was eager to learn more about 4th Gen from an expert, Dr. Engestr?m, who was very responsive. The class was a very generative space and I don?t recall an adversarial or confrontational instance (and I?ve analyzed the videos) during Yrjo?s talk or others. As someone who was there, I thought it was important to share this context. Best, Arturo On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 5:26 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > See the latest video clip on culturalpraxis.net - a young researcher puts > Yrjo on the spot with the question everyone has been asking: What's this > with the "fourth generation"? > Andy > > > Victoria posted: " > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XijCqxkpHLU&feature=youtu.be__;!!Mih3wA!SMBCK4NdVc3wTnUqfXOE8xrQsFqmqjSiktLA1a_H3E_DwVPtzlpA_rLZSzR7oOkJxx64Ow$ In this video > Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question on the reasons > to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical activity theory > (CHAT). The piece is" > > > > New post on *Cultural Praxis* > > Why > generations? > by > Victoria > > > > > In this video Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question > on the reasons to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical > activity theory (CHAT). The piece is an excerpt from the seminar "From CHAT > to critical CHAT, organized by Professor Kris Gutierrez and Edward Rivero > at University of California Berkeley (Spring 2020). The course was attended > by roughly 50 scholars from various parts of the US and Europe. > > Go to our Youtube Library > for > longer interviews and presentations by distinguished CHAT scholars and > educators. > *Victoria > * > | November 23, 2020 at 6:16 pm | Categories: Video Series: Join the > discussion > > | URL: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/?p=727__;!!Mih3wA!SMBCK4NdVc3wTnUqfXOE8xrQsFqmqjSiktLA1a_H3E_DwVPtzlpA_rLZSzR7oOnG35oZUQ$ > > > Comment > > See all comments > > > Unsubscribe > > to no longer receive posts from Cultural Praxis. > Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions > . > > > *Trouble clicking?* Copy and paste this URL into your browser: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/23/why-generations/__;!!Mih3wA!SMBCK4NdVc3wTnUqfXOE8xrQsFqmqjSiktLA1a_H3E_DwVPtzlpA_rLZSzR7oOmNIa6oFw$ > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201124/532c4377/attachment.html From ajrajala@gmail.com Tue Nov 24 09:25:51 2020 From: ajrajala@gmail.com (Antti Rajala) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 19:25:51 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> Message-ID: Thank you Arturo for sharing your thoughts. I had a similar experience as you in the course and it is important that you provided a proper context for understanding the tone of the exchange. The way Arturo framed it corresponds to my understanding, too. Best wishes, Antti ti 24.11.2020 klo 19.08 ARTURO CORTEZ kirjoitti: > Hi, Andy. > > Thanks for bringing this video to the attention of xmca. As a co-designer > and participant in the course, I would frame this differently. Anna asked a > genuine question that she (and others) had and was eager to learn more > about 4th Gen from an expert, Dr. Engestr?m, who was very responsive. The > class was a very generative space and I don?t recall an adversarial or > confrontational instance (and I?ve analyzed the videos) during Yrjo?s talk > or others. As someone who was there, I thought it was important to share > this context. > > Best, > > Arturo > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 5:26 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> See the latest video clip on culturalpraxis.net >> >> - a young researcher puts Yrjo on the spot with the question everyone has >> been asking: What's this with the "fourth generation"? >> Andy >> >> >> Victoria posted: " >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XijCqxkpHLU&feature=youtu.be__;!!Mih3wA!V-Bmy5PTIWLA4yV7i5c4FOiBYwFc8emP8Jp_xcVzeiLsS_tgBA-DIVQwM46Jo6pCSDmFvQ$ In this video >> Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question on the reasons >> to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical activity theory >> (CHAT). The piece is" >> >> >> >> New post on *Cultural Praxis* >> >> Why >> generations? >> by >> Victoria >> >> >> >> >> In this video Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question >> on the reasons to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical >> activity theory (CHAT). The piece is an excerpt from the seminar "From CHAT >> to critical CHAT, organized by Professor Kris Gutierrez and Edward Rivero >> at University of California Berkeley (Spring 2020). The course was attended >> by roughly 50 scholars from various parts of the US and Europe. >> >> Go to our Youtube Library >> for >> longer interviews and presentations by distinguished CHAT scholars and >> educators. >> *Victoria >> * >> | November 23, 2020 at 6:16 pm | Categories: Video Series: Join the >> discussion >> >> | URL: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/?p=727__;!!Mih3wA!V-Bmy5PTIWLA4yV7i5c4FOiBYwFc8emP8Jp_xcVzeiLsS_tgBA-DIVQwM46Jo6poUE9rdw$ >> >> >> Comment >> >> See all comments >> >> >> Unsubscribe >> >> to no longer receive posts from Cultural Praxis. >> Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions >> . >> >> >> *Trouble clicking?* Copy and paste this URL into your browser: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/23/why-generations/__;!!Mih3wA!V-Bmy5PTIWLA4yV7i5c4FOiBYwFc8emP8Jp_xcVzeiLsS_tgBA-DIVQwM46Jo6pOibVRag$ >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201124/703bf6a2/attachment.html From monica.lemos@gmail.com Tue Nov 24 10:04:33 2020 From: monica.lemos@gmail.com (Monica Lemos) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 15:04:33 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> Message-ID: Dear all, Although I didn't take part in the seminar, I had the chance to watch it from beginning to end and it seems to me, Anna asked a legitimate question about "Why generations?", which was directly responded to. This is an important foundational question to our community, that's why the piece is on Cultural Praxis. If there is any disagreement on its content join us in the discussion. Comunidade Brasileira (falantes de portug?s y hispanohablantes), A discuss?o sobre gera??es da Teoria da Atividade (S?cio) Hist?rico Cultural tem sido bastante importante em nossos estudos, seja do ponto de vista de compreens?o hist?rica da teoria, do ponto de vista metodol?gico em nossas pesquisas, ou at? mesmo em pontos de discord?ncia ao que se refere discutir a teoria sob a perspectiva das gera??es. Nossa comunidade ? imensa, por isso ? muito importante que participemos de tais discuss?es para expandir a teoria e discuti-la ? luz de nossas realidades. Acessem esse e outros v?deos na Cultural Praxis , comentem, questionem. Kind regards, Um abra?o, Em ter., 24 de nov. de 2020 ?s 14:29, Antti Rajala escreveu: > > Thank you Arturo for sharing your thoughts. I had a similar experience as > you in the course and it is important that you provided a proper context > for understanding the tone of the exchange. The way Arturo framed it > corresponds to my understanding, too. > > Best wishes, Antti > > ti 24.11.2020 klo 19.08 ARTURO CORTEZ kirjoitti: > >> Hi, Andy. >> >> Thanks for bringing this video to the attention of xmca. As a co-designer >> and participant in the course, I would frame this differently. Anna asked a >> genuine question that she (and others) had and was eager to learn more >> about 4th Gen from an expert, Dr. Engestr?m, who was very responsive. The >> class was a very generative space and I don?t recall an adversarial or >> confrontational instance (and I?ve analyzed the videos) during Yrjo?s talk >> or others. As someone who was there, I thought it was important to share >> this context. >> >> Best, >> >> Arturo >> >> On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 5:26 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> See the latest video clip on culturalpraxis.net >>> >>> - a young researcher puts Yrjo on the spot with the question everyone has >>> been asking: What's this with the "fourth generation"? >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> Victoria posted: " >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XijCqxkpHLU&feature=youtu.be__;!!Mih3wA!Ti6jkKXA36zpFMcC47eqHxZv_yhZgwV1diBcMP1FN0c50m9k_GRizKXftUCU3Lqj06OVLQ$ In this video >>> Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question on the reasons >>> to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical activity theory >>> (CHAT). The piece is" >>> >>> >>> >>> New post on *Cultural Praxis* >>> >>> Why >>> generations? >>> by >>> Victoria >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> In this video Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question >>> on the reasons to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical >>> activity theory (CHAT). The piece is an excerpt from the seminar "From CHAT >>> to critical CHAT, organized by Professor Kris Gutierrez and Edward Rivero >>> at University of California Berkeley (Spring 2020). The course was attended >>> by roughly 50 scholars from various parts of the US and Europe. >>> >>> Go to our Youtube Library >>> for >>> longer interviews and presentations by distinguished CHAT scholars and >>> educators. >>> *Victoria >>> * >>> | November 23, 2020 at 6:16 pm | Categories: Video Series: Join the >>> discussion >>> >>> | URL: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/?p=727__;!!Mih3wA!Ti6jkKXA36zpFMcC47eqHxZv_yhZgwV1diBcMP1FN0c50m9k_GRizKXftUCU3LpVc1ymJA$ >>> >>> >>> Comment >>> >>> See all comments >>> >>> >>> Unsubscribe >>> >>> to no longer receive posts from Cultural Praxis. >>> Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions >>> . >>> >>> >>> *Trouble clicking?* Copy and paste this URL into your browser: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/23/why-generations/__;!!Mih3wA!Ti6jkKXA36zpFMcC47eqHxZv_yhZgwV1diBcMP1FN0c50m9k_GRizKXftUCU3LoaYsxzSg$ >>> >>> >>> >>> -- Monica F. Lemos - PhD Student Faculty of Educational Sciences Center for Research on Activity, Development and Learning https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.helsinki.fi/cradle/doctoral_students_2012.htm__;!!Mih3wA!Ti6jkKXA36zpFMcC47eqHxZv_yhZgwV1diBcMP1FN0c50m9k_GRizKXftUCU3LqtmR9Mwg$ P.O. Box 9, FIN-00014 University of Helsinki- Finland +55 11 98162-9482 (whatsapp) Skype: monicaflemos -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201124/fa25340a/attachment.html From jwmuic@gmail.com Tue Nov 24 10:04:38 2020 From: jwmuic@gmail.com (Jose W. Melendez) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 10:04:38 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> Message-ID: Thank you Arturo for providing the learning context. I was confused when I went to see the video and did not encounter the adversarial framing of the video as it was shared. I think providing this kind of context is key when sharing students' interactions so that they don't fear that their questions or engagement will be taken out of context if and when such clips are to be shared with individuals who were not present. Best, Jos? *Jos? W. Mel?ndez, Ph.D.* Assistant Professor of Planning School of Planning, Public Policy, & Management University of Oregon https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pppm.uoregon.edu__;!!Mih3wA!W_ujDk5G_bmMUUOwvI8q4mLRCXJWG61_JYkXiQUxZO9DK3JNnBl5uP_AH870DFvnia9QOA$ Sample Publications: Participatory Budgeting In ?Latino immigrants in civil society? learn about the significance and role of Latino participants? claim-making abilities in mediating their civic engagement. Latino immigrants in civil society: Addressing the double-bind of participation for expansive learning in participatory budgeting Pedagogy: This invited reflective piece seeks to contextualize the journal?s special issue on cultural competency in urban affairs programs from a learning-sciences perspective, which centers on how students learn. https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.ejournalofpublicaffairs.org/aligning-our-pedagogy/__;!!Mih3wA!W_ujDk5G_bmMUUOwvI8q4mLRCXJWG61_JYkXiQUxZO9DK3JNnBl5uP_AH870DFucFEXD9A$ On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 9:29 AM Antti Rajala wrote: > > Thank you Arturo for sharing your thoughts. I had a similar experience as > you in the course and it is important that you provided a proper context > for understanding the tone of the exchange. The way Arturo framed it > corresponds to my understanding, too. > > Best wishes, Antti > > ti 24.11.2020 klo 19.08 ARTURO CORTEZ kirjoitti: > >> Hi, Andy. >> >> Thanks for bringing this video to the attention of xmca. As a co-designer >> and participant in the course, I would frame this differently. Anna asked a >> genuine question that she (and others) had and was eager to learn more >> about 4th Gen from an expert, Dr. Engestr?m, who was very responsive. The >> class was a very generative space and I don?t recall an adversarial or >> confrontational instance (and I?ve analyzed the videos) during Yrjo?s talk >> or others. As someone who was there, I thought it was important to share >> this context. >> >> Best, >> >> Arturo >> >> On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 5:26 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> See the latest video clip on culturalpraxis.net >>> >>> - a young researcher puts Yrjo on the spot with the question everyone has >>> been asking: What's this with the "fourth generation"? >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> Victoria posted: " >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XijCqxkpHLU&feature=youtu.be__;!!Mih3wA!W_ujDk5G_bmMUUOwvI8q4mLRCXJWG61_JYkXiQUxZO9DK3JNnBl5uP_AH870DFvwTrtQSw$ In this video >>> Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question on the reasons >>> to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical activity theory >>> (CHAT). The piece is" >>> >>> >>> >>> New post on *Cultural Praxis* >>> >>> Why >>> generations? >>> by >>> Victoria >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> In this video Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question >>> on the reasons to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical >>> activity theory (CHAT). The piece is an excerpt from the seminar "From CHAT >>> to critical CHAT, organized by Professor Kris Gutierrez and Edward Rivero >>> at University of California Berkeley (Spring 2020). The course was attended >>> by roughly 50 scholars from various parts of the US and Europe. >>> >>> Go to our Youtube Library >>> for >>> longer interviews and presentations by distinguished CHAT scholars and >>> educators. >>> *Victoria >>> * >>> | November 23, 2020 at 6:16 pm | Categories: Video Series: Join the >>> discussion >>> >>> | URL: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/?p=727__;!!Mih3wA!W_ujDk5G_bmMUUOwvI8q4mLRCXJWG61_JYkXiQUxZO9DK3JNnBl5uP_AH870DFsLlrFPZA$ >>> >>> >>> Comment >>> >>> See all comments >>> >>> >>> Unsubscribe >>> >>> to no longer receive posts from Cultural Praxis. >>> Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions >>> . >>> >>> >>> *Trouble clicking?* Copy and paste this URL into your browser: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/23/why-generations/__;!!Mih3wA!W_ujDk5G_bmMUUOwvI8q4mLRCXJWG61_JYkXiQUxZO9DK3JNnBl5uP_AH870DFvZaQWv3A$ >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201124/78729fd8/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Tue Nov 24 16:08:40 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 11:08:40 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> Message-ID: <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> I never intended my message to frame Anna's question as "adversarial." Of course it was genuine! It is also true that many people have been wanting an answer to this question and I meant to applaud Anna for posing the question to Yjro. As it happens Yrjo gave an excellent answer to the question. He both explained how it has led to unfortunate misunderstandings of which he was well aware, and the original, perfectly good meaning that the term has. Obviously I am upset that what I intended as praise for Anna's action has been construed in this way. One lives, one learns. I am sorry. I hope now that xmca-ers who are interested in Yrjo's work will have a look at the video and maybe make a comment on it, and we will all have learnt. andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 25/11/2020 4:06 am, ARTURO CORTEZ wrote: > Hi, Andy. > > Thanks for bringing this video to the attention of xmca. > As a co-designer and participant in the course, I would > frame this differently. Anna asked a genuine question that > she (and others) had and was eager to learn more about 4th > Gen from an expert, Dr. Engestr?m, who was very > responsive. The class was a very generative space and I > don?t recall an adversarial or confrontational instance > (and I?ve analyzed the videos) during Yrjo?s talk or > others. As someone who was there, I thought it was > important to share this context. > > Best, > Arturo > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 5:26 PM Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > See the latest video clip on culturalpraxis.net > > - a young researcher puts Yrjo on the spot with the > question everyone has been asking: What's this with > the "fourth generation"? > > Andy > > > Victoria posted: " > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XijCqxkpHLU&feature=youtu.be__;!!Mih3wA!RUhJ0gxm82ec4ykziv0nkRnS3EwZY1riRVSIhrI3mWyIxNWiREL64wyOkWb1XJDDSJqNYg$ > In this video Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to > Anna Zarkh's question on the reasons to use the term > generations to approach cultural-historical activity > theory (CHAT). The piece is" > > > > > New post on *Cultural Praxis* > > > > > > > > Why generations? > > > by Victoria > > > > > > > In this video Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to > Anna Zarkh's question on the reasons to use the term > generations to approach cultural-historical activity > theory (CHAT). The piece is an excerpt from the > seminar "From CHAT to critical CHAT, organized by > Professor Kris Gutierrez and Edward Rivero at > University of California Berkeley (Spring 2020). The > course was attended by roughly 50 scholars from > various parts of the US and Europe. > > Go to our Youtube Library > ?for > longer interviews and presentations by distinguished > CHAT scholars and educators. > > *Victoria > * > | November 23, 2020 at 6:16 pm | Categories: Video > Series: Join the discussion > > | URL: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/?p=727__;!!Mih3wA!RUhJ0gxm82ec4ykziv0nkRnS3EwZY1riRVSIhrI3mWyIxNWiREL64wyOkWb1XJACFS59hg$ > > > > Comment > > See all comments > > > > Unsubscribe > > to no longer receive posts from Cultural Praxis. > Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions > . > > > *Trouble clicking?* Copy and paste this URL into your > browser: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/23/why-generations/__;!!Mih3wA!RUhJ0gxm82ec4ykziv0nkRnS3EwZY1riRVSIhrI3mWyIxNWiREL64wyOkWb1XJC8vHYgLg$ > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201125/96f012af/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Tue Nov 24 18:34:09 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 21:34:09 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> Message-ID: You should not be upset, Andy, as there was nothing negative in the way you introduced that video. Sometimes, in cross-cultural settings, a phrase or two can translate in unexpected ways. But that's a small price to pay, compared to the much larger benefits of an international community. Happily, everyone is back on the same page now. So keep your head high. Anthony On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 7:11 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > I never intended my message to frame Anna's question as "adversarial." Of > course it was genuine! It is also true that many people have been wanting > an answer to this question and I meant to applaud Anna for posing the > question to Yjro. As it happens Yrjo gave an excellent answer to the > question. He both explained how it has led to unfortunate misunderstandings > of which he was well aware, and the original, perfectly good meaning that > the term has. > > Obviously I am upset that what I intended as praise for Anna's action has > been construed in this way. One lives, one learns. I am sorry. I hope now > that xmca-ers who are interested in Yrjo's work will have a look at the > video and maybe make a comment on it, and we will all have learnt. > > andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 25/11/2020 4:06 am, ARTURO CORTEZ wrote: > > Hi, Andy. > > Thanks for bringing this video to the attention of xmca. As a co-designer > and participant in the course, I would frame this differently. Anna asked a > genuine question that she (and others) had and was eager to learn more > about 4th Gen from an expert, Dr. Engestr?m, who was very responsive. The > class was a very generative space and I don?t recall an adversarial or > confrontational instance (and I?ve analyzed the videos) during Yrjo?s talk > or others. As someone who was there, I thought it was important to share > this context. > > Best, > Arturo > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 5:26 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> See the latest video clip on culturalpraxis.net >> >> - a young researcher puts Yrjo on the spot with the question everyone has >> been asking: What's this with the "fourth generation"? >> Andy >> >> >> Victoria posted: " >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XijCqxkpHLU&feature=youtu.be__;!!Mih3wA!QuPNj6-MhXnukcjPTOTyczcYCoWWWivxiP0SUg_iOkYH4-S9G98pxqK4N8uvHRn-sK3Hvg$ In this video >> Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question on the reasons >> to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical activity theory >> (CHAT). The piece is" >> >> >> >> New post on *Cultural Praxis* >> >> Why >> generations? >> by >> Victoria >> >> >> >> >> In this video Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question >> on the reasons to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical >> activity theory (CHAT). The piece is an excerpt from the seminar "From CHAT >> to critical CHAT, organized by Professor Kris Gutierrez and Edward Rivero >> at University of California Berkeley (Spring 2020). The course was attended >> by roughly 50 scholars from various parts of the US and Europe. >> >> Go to our Youtube Library >> for >> longer interviews and presentations by distinguished CHAT scholars and >> educators. >> *Victoria >> * >> | November 23, 2020 at 6:16 pm | Categories: Video Series: Join the >> discussion >> >> | URL: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/?p=727__;!!Mih3wA!QuPNj6-MhXnukcjPTOTyczcYCoWWWivxiP0SUg_iOkYH4-S9G98pxqK4N8uvHRlgmvlhBQ$ >> >> >> Comment >> >> See all comments >> >> >> Unsubscribe >> >> to no longer receive posts from Cultural Praxis. >> Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions >> . >> >> >> *Trouble clicking?* Copy and paste this URL into your browser: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/23/why-generations/__;!!Mih3wA!QuPNj6-MhXnukcjPTOTyczcYCoWWWivxiP0SUg_iOkYH4-S9G98pxqK4N8uvHRnV_qaixA$ >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201124/cc5106dd/attachment.html From bferholt@gmail.com Wed Nov 25 08:17:57 2020 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 11:17:57 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> Message-ID: Hi all, As we all know, XMCA is a forum that does not have a good track record of generating positive outcomes from several key types of disagreement -- this seems to maybe be one of these types. I am, therefore, disinclined to add my voice right here and now. However, I happened to read this chain and feel compelled to add that I do not think there was a translation misunderstanding, the start of this exchange is between two native English speakers, and I think that the critiques and Andy's response are both steps forward for us all -- no price is small if someone someone could be hurt or many could feel silenced, or the precious space of this special class could be unintentionally undermined, and also, we do not want to end up on the same page but rather to stay on many pages, maybe one book? bookshelf? ... which Arturto's comment and Andy's response could allow! Respectfully and lovingly, Beth On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 9:37 PM Anthony Barra wrote: > You should not be upset, Andy, as there was nothing negative in the way > you introduced that video. > > Sometimes, in cross-cultural settings, a phrase or two can translate in > unexpected ways. But that's a small price to pay, compared to the much > larger benefits of an international community. > > Happily, everyone is back on the same page now. So keep your head high. > > Anthony > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 7:11 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> I never intended my message to frame Anna's question as "adversarial." Of >> course it was genuine! It is also true that many people have been wanting >> an answer to this question and I meant to applaud Anna for posing the >> question to Yjro. As it happens Yrjo gave an excellent answer to the >> question. He both explained how it has led to unfortunate misunderstandings >> of which he was well aware, and the original, perfectly good meaning that >> the term has. >> >> Obviously I am upset that what I intended as praise for Anna's action has >> been construed in this way. One lives, one learns. I am sorry. I hope now >> that xmca-ers who are interested in Yrjo's work will have a look at the >> video and maybe make a comment on it, and we will all have learnt. >> >> andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 25/11/2020 4:06 am, ARTURO CORTEZ wrote: >> >> Hi, Andy. >> >> Thanks for bringing this video to the attention of xmca. As a co-designer >> and participant in the course, I would frame this differently. Anna asked a >> genuine question that she (and others) had and was eager to learn more >> about 4th Gen from an expert, Dr. Engestr?m, who was very responsive. The >> class was a very generative space and I don?t recall an adversarial or >> confrontational instance (and I?ve analyzed the videos) during Yrjo?s talk >> or others. As someone who was there, I thought it was important to share >> this context. >> >> Best, >> Arturo >> >> On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 5:26 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> See the latest video clip on culturalpraxis.net >>> >>> - a young researcher puts Yrjo on the spot with the question everyone has >>> been asking: What's this with the "fourth generation"? >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> Victoria posted: " >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XijCqxkpHLU&feature=youtu.be__;!!Mih3wA!SCoezYsw9mxtH0dLgxGvA1sRRZCp5kwiXBAG-e6i2iETZk3c-YyftD-r-OH6Z1Ue9m3Fow$ In this video >>> Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question on the reasons >>> to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical activity theory >>> (CHAT). The piece is" >>> >>> >>> >>> New post on *Cultural Praxis* >>> >>> Why >>> generations? >>> by >>> Victoria >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> In this video Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question >>> on the reasons to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical >>> activity theory (CHAT). The piece is an excerpt from the seminar "From CHAT >>> to critical CHAT, organized by Professor Kris Gutierrez and Edward Rivero >>> at University of California Berkeley (Spring 2020). The course was attended >>> by roughly 50 scholars from various parts of the US and Europe. >>> >>> Go to our Youtube Library >>> for >>> longer interviews and presentations by distinguished CHAT scholars and >>> educators. >>> *Victoria >>> * >>> | November 23, 2020 at 6:16 pm | Categories: Video Series: Join the >>> discussion >>> >>> | URL: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/?p=727__;!!Mih3wA!SCoezYsw9mxtH0dLgxGvA1sRRZCp5kwiXBAG-e6i2iETZk3c-YyftD-r-OH6Z1UWDxLCDg$ >>> >>> >>> Comment >>> >>> See all comments >>> >>> >>> Unsubscribe >>> >>> to no longer receive posts from Cultural Praxis. >>> Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions >>> . >>> >>> >>> *Trouble clicking?* Copy and paste this URL into your browser: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/23/why-generations/__;!!Mih3wA!SCoezYsw9mxtH0dLgxGvA1sRRZCp5kwiXBAG-e6i2iETZk3c-YyftD-r-OH6Z1U1XyX8WA$ >>> >>> >>> >>> -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201125/3636f7df/attachment.html From cortez.arturo@gmail.com Wed Nov 25 08:23:31 2020 From: cortez.arturo@gmail.com (Arturo Cortez) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 09:23:31 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> Message-ID: <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> For real!! Those fools ain?t worth your brilliance. But, real talk: did Anthony Barra say that I misunderstood because of my language and culture? That s**t is racist, if so. You doing alright? I need to figure out how to chill with you one day. Wish we lived closer, but I know we?ll figure it out. Lots of love to you and your family. Thank you for checking in. And let?s take a break from these jerks. I needed to make sure that student didn?t get framed in a messed up way and I assumed there would be blowback. If these fools had any power I?d be concerned. While their insignificance annoys me, it annoys me further that they think anything they say matters beyond their bubble and to that matter: I don?t think it is possible to engage them in any reflection as it is impossible for them to apologize. So check minus to them. Love you!!! Talk soon, Arturo Arturo Cortez, PhD Assistant Professor Teacher Learning, Research & Practice Learning Sciences & Human Development School of Education | UCB 249 | Room 314 University of Colorado Boulder Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Territories 415.261.3155 (mobile) https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cuboulder.zoom.us/my/arturocortez__;!!Mih3wA!Tf4IV310wqJlF4yu_q8x9KfhBu3tyRn70kSajtxvUkBcXRw2s-DLVVSuSuFauC5WqPtjZA$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/education__;!!Mih3wA!Tf4IV310wqJlF4yu_q8x9KfhBu3tyRn70kSajtxvUkBcXRw2s-DLVVSuSuFauC6lNRAn_Q$ Sign up for office hours here. > On Nov 24, 2020, at 19:34, Anthony Barra wrote: > > You should not be upset, Andy, as there was nothing negative in the way you introduced that video. > > Sometimes, in cross-cultural settings, a phrase or two can translate in unexpected ways. But that's a small price to pay, compared to the much larger benefits of an international community. > > Happily, everyone is back on the same page now. So keep your head high. > > Anthony > > > >> On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 7:11 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> I never intended my message to frame Anna's question as "adversarial." Of course it was genuine! It is also true that many people have been wanting an answer to this question and I meant to applaud Anna for posing the question to Yjro. As it happens Yrjo gave an excellent answer to the question. He both explained how it has led to unfortunate misunderstandings of which he was well aware, and the original, perfectly good meaning that the term has. >> >> Obviously I am upset that what I intended as praise for Anna's action has been construed in this way. One lives, one learns. I am sorry. I hope now that xmca-ers who are interested in Yrjo's work will have a look at the video and maybe make a comment on it, and we will all have learnt. >> >> andy >> >> Andy Blunden >> Hegel for Social Movements >> Home Page >>> On 25/11/2020 4:06 am, ARTURO CORTEZ wrote: >>> Hi, Andy. >>> >>> Thanks for bringing this video to the attention of xmca. As a co-designer and participant in the course, I would frame this differently. Anna asked a genuine question that she (and others) had and was eager to learn more about 4th Gen from an expert, Dr. Engestr?m, who was very responsive. The class was a very generative space and I don?t recall an adversarial or confrontational instance (and I?ve analyzed the videos) during Yrjo?s talk or others. As someone who was there, I thought it was important to share this context. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arturo >>> >>>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 5:26 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >>>> See the latest video clip on culturalpraxis.net - a young researcher puts Yrjo on the spot with the question everyone has been asking: What's this with the "fourth generation"? >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> New post on Cultural Praxis >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Why generations? >>>> by Victoria >>>> >>>> In this video Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question on the reasons to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical activity theory (CHAT). The piece is an excerpt from the seminar "From CHAT to critical CHAT, organized by Professor Kris Gutierrez and Edward Rivero at University of California Berkeley (Spring 2020). The course was attended by roughly 50 scholars from various parts of the US and Europe. >>>> >>>> Go to our Youtube Library for longer interviews and presentations by distinguished CHAT scholars and educators. >>>> >>>> Victoria | November 23, 2020 at 6:16 pm | Categories: Video Series: Join the discussion | URL: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/?p=727__;!!Mih3wA!Tf4IV310wqJlF4yu_q8x9KfhBu3tyRn70kSajtxvUkBcXRw2s-DLVVSuSuFauC6BZG_Qpg$ >>>> Comment See all comments >>>> Unsubscribe to no longer receive posts from Cultural Praxis. >>>> Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions. >>>> >>>> Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/23/why-generations/__;!!Mih3wA!Tf4IV310wqJlF4yu_q8x9KfhBu3tyRn70kSajtxvUkBcXRw2s-DLVVSuSuFauC5GX6e3rw$ >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201125/58df62a8/attachment.html From bferholt@gmail.com Wed Nov 25 08:29:14 2020 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 11:29:14 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Could I encourage all to write nothing in response to this for at least 24-48 hours? It's obviously not intended for this audience. We have all made this mistake!!!!!! Beth On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 11:25 AM Arturo Cortez wrote: > For real!! Those fools ain?t worth your brilliance. But, real talk: did > Anthony Barra say that I misunderstood because of my language and culture? > That s**t is racist, if so. > > You doing alright? I need to figure out how to chill with you one day. > Wish we lived closer, but I know we?ll figure it out. > > Lots of love to you and your family. Thank you for checking in. And let?s > take a break from these jerks. I needed to make sure that student didn?t > get framed in a messed up way and I assumed there would be blowback. If > these fools had any power I?d be concerned. While their insignificance > annoys me, it annoys me further that they think anything they say matters > beyond their bubble and to that matter: I don?t think it is possible to > engage them in any reflection as it is impossible for them to apologize. So > check minus to them. > > Love you!!! > > Talk soon, > Arturo > > Arturo Cortez, PhD > > Assistant Professor > > Teacher Learning, Research & Practice > > > Learning Sciences & Human Development > > > School of Education | UCB 249 | Room 314 > > University of Colorado Boulder > > Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Territories > > 415.261.3155 (mobile) > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cuboulder.zoom.us/my/arturocortez__;!!Mih3wA!QMEb1p9lycAKksguBRWMe7h1-RWjYcZHvIfLgNcD6Zq0MsqIMsB2qIY-yWehIsGbzIcVAA$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/education__;!!Mih3wA!QMEb1p9lycAKksguBRWMe7h1-RWjYcZHvIfLgNcD6Zq0MsqIMsB2qIY-yWehIsGXHi2bOw$ > > > > Sign up for office hours here > > . > > On Nov 24, 2020, at 19:34, Anthony Barra wrote: > > You should not be upset, Andy, as there was nothing negative in the way > you introduced that video. > > Sometimes, in cross-cultural settings, a phrase or two can translate in > unexpected ways. But that's a small price to pay, compared to the much > larger benefits of an international community. > > Happily, everyone is back on the same page now. So keep your head high. > > Anthony > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 7:11 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> I never intended my message to frame Anna's question as "adversarial." Of >> course it was genuine! It is also true that many people have been wanting >> an answer to this question and I meant to applaud Anna for posing the >> question to Yjro. As it happens Yrjo gave an excellent answer to the >> question. He both explained how it has led to unfortunate misunderstandings >> of which he was well aware, and the original, perfectly good meaning that >> the term has. >> >> Obviously I am upset that what I intended as praise for Anna's action has >> been construed in this way. One lives, one learns. I am sorry. I hope now >> that xmca-ers who are interested in Yrjo's work will have a look at the >> video and maybe make a comment on it, and we will all have learnt. >> >> andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 25/11/2020 4:06 am, ARTURO CORTEZ wrote: >> >> Hi, Andy. >> >> Thanks for bringing this video to the attention of xmca. As a co-designer >> and participant in the course, I would frame this differently. Anna asked a >> genuine question that she (and others) had and was eager to learn more >> about 4th Gen from an expert, Dr. Engestr?m, who was very responsive. The >> class was a very generative space and I don?t recall an adversarial or >> confrontational instance (and I?ve analyzed the videos) during Yrjo?s talk >> or others. As someone who was there, I thought it was important to share >> this context. >> >> Best, >> Arturo >> >> On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 5:26 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> See the latest video clip on culturalpraxis.net >>> >>> - a young researcher puts Yrjo on the spot with the question everyone has >>> been asking: What's this with the "fourth generation"? >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> Victoria posted: " >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XijCqxkpHLU&feature=youtu.be__;!!Mih3wA!QMEb1p9lycAKksguBRWMe7h1-RWjYcZHvIfLgNcD6Zq0MsqIMsB2qIY-yWehIsHNo_x4EQ$ In this video >>> Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question on the reasons >>> to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical activity theory >>> (CHAT). The piece is" >>> >>> >>> >>> New post on *Cultural Praxis* >>> >>> Why >>> generations? >>> by >>> Victoria >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> In this video Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question >>> on the reasons to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical >>> activity theory (CHAT). The piece is an excerpt from the seminar "From CHAT >>> to critical CHAT, organized by Professor Kris Gutierrez and Edward Rivero >>> at University of California Berkeley (Spring 2020). The course was attended >>> by roughly 50 scholars from various parts of the US and Europe. >>> >>> Go to our Youtube Library >>> for >>> longer interviews and presentations by distinguished CHAT scholars and >>> educators. >>> *Victoria >>> * >>> | November 23, 2020 at 6:16 pm | Categories: Video Series: Join the >>> discussion >>> >>> | URL: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/?p=727__;!!Mih3wA!QMEb1p9lycAKksguBRWMe7h1-RWjYcZHvIfLgNcD6Zq0MsqIMsB2qIY-yWehIsExkFlmzw$ >>> >>> >>> Comment >>> >>> See all comments >>> >>> >>> Unsubscribe >>> >>> to no longer receive posts from Cultural Praxis. >>> Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions >>> . >>> >>> >>> *Trouble clicking?* Copy and paste this URL into your browser: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/23/why-generations/__;!!Mih3wA!QMEb1p9lycAKksguBRWMe7h1-RWjYcZHvIfLgNcD6Zq0MsqIMsB2qIY-yWehIsGmLsP-vQ$ >>> >>> >>> >>> -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201125/e72fa53f/attachment.html From bazerman@education.ucsb.edu Wed Nov 25 08:48:25 2020 From: bazerman@education.ucsb.edu (Charles Bazerman) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 08:48:25 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> Message-ID: The interesting video cuts off just before Yrjo was going to tell us what studies found out (or didn't) about academia as an activity system. I would be very interested in his answer. Is that clip or a transcript accessible? Thanks Chuck ---- ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. History will judge. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!QV049-QI5P9Q_lwCWb1l7ILu60fCpMgRm4nK8hiZwlVsnQq5t24Hsx2Hzq5oCKA0AwAfxQ$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!QV049-QI5P9Q_lwCWb1l7ILu60fCpMgRm4nK8hiZwlVsnQq5t24Hsx2Hzq5oCKAdrzxC9Q$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!QV049-QI5P9Q_lwCWb1l7ILu60fCpMgRm4nK8hiZwlVsnQq5t24Hsx2Hzq5oCKCzeR7fSA$ On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 8:31 AM Beth Ferholt wrote: > Could I encourage all to write nothing in response to this for at least > 24-48 hours? It's obviously not intended for this audience. We have all > made this mistake!!!!!! Beth > > On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 11:25 AM Arturo Cortez > wrote: > >> For real!! Those fools ain?t worth your brilliance. But, real talk: did >> Anthony Barra say that I misunderstood because of my language and culture? >> That s**t is racist, if so. >> >> You doing alright? I need to figure out how to chill with you one day. >> Wish we lived closer, but I know we?ll figure it out. >> >> Lots of love to you and your family. Thank you for checking in. And let?s >> take a break from these jerks. I needed to make sure that student didn?t >> get framed in a messed up way and I assumed there would be blowback. If >> these fools had any power I?d be concerned. While their insignificance >> annoys me, it annoys me further that they think anything they say matters >> beyond their bubble and to that matter: I don?t think it is possible to >> engage them in any reflection as it is impossible for them to apologize. So >> check minus to them. >> >> Love you!!! >> >> Talk soon, >> Arturo >> >> Arturo Cortez, PhD >> >> Assistant Professor >> >> Teacher Learning, Research & Practice >> >> >> Learning Sciences & Human Development >> >> >> School of Education | UCB 249 | Room 314 >> >> University of Colorado Boulder >> >> Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Territories >> >> 415.261.3155 (mobile) >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cuboulder.zoom.us/my/arturocortez__;!!Mih3wA!QV049-QI5P9Q_lwCWb1l7ILu60fCpMgRm4nK8hiZwlVsnQq5t24Hsx2Hzq5oCKAekb546Q$ >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/education__;!!Mih3wA!QV049-QI5P9Q_lwCWb1l7ILu60fCpMgRm4nK8hiZwlVsnQq5t24Hsx2Hzq5oCKBBM_CJ6w$ >> >> >> >> Sign up for office hours here >> >> . >> >> On Nov 24, 2020, at 19:34, Anthony Barra wrote: >> >> You should not be upset, Andy, as there was nothing negative in the way >> you introduced that video. >> >> Sometimes, in cross-cultural settings, a phrase or two can translate in >> unexpected ways. But that's a small price to pay, compared to the much >> larger benefits of an international community. >> >> Happily, everyone is back on the same page now. So keep your head high. >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 7:11 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> I never intended my message to frame Anna's question as "adversarial." >>> Of course it was genuine! It is also true that many people have been >>> wanting an answer to this question and I meant to applaud Anna for posing >>> the question to Yjro. As it happens Yrjo gave an excellent answer to the >>> question. He both explained how it has led to unfortunate misunderstandings >>> of which he was well aware, and the original, perfectly good meaning that >>> the term has. >>> >>> Obviously I am upset that what I intended as praise for Anna's action >>> has been construed in this way. One lives, one learns. I am sorry. I hope >>> now that xmca-ers who are interested in Yrjo's work will have a look at the >>> video and maybe make a comment on it, and we will all have learnt. >>> >>> andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 25/11/2020 4:06 am, ARTURO CORTEZ wrote: >>> >>> Hi, Andy. >>> >>> Thanks for bringing this video to the attention of xmca. As a >>> co-designer and participant in the course, I would frame this differently. >>> Anna asked a genuine question that she (and others) had and was eager to >>> learn more about 4th Gen from an expert, Dr. Engestr?m, who was very >>> responsive. The class was a very generative space and I don?t recall an >>> adversarial or confrontational instance (and I?ve analyzed the videos) >>> during Yrjo?s talk or others. As someone who was there, I thought it was >>> important to share this context. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arturo >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 5:26 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>>> See the latest video clip on culturalpraxis.net >>>> >>>> - a young researcher puts Yrjo on the spot with the question everyone has >>>> been asking: What's this with the "fourth generation"? >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> >>>> Victoria posted: " >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XijCqxkpHLU&feature=youtu.be__;!!Mih3wA!QV049-QI5P9Q_lwCWb1l7ILu60fCpMgRm4nK8hiZwlVsnQq5t24Hsx2Hzq5oCKA_Pwfy1A$ In this video >>>> Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question on the reasons >>>> to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical activity theory >>>> (CHAT). The piece is" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> New post on *Cultural Praxis* >>>> >>>> Why >>>> generations? >>>> by >>>> Victoria >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In this video Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's >>>> question on the reasons to use the term generations to approach >>>> cultural-historical activity theory (CHAT). The piece is an excerpt from >>>> the seminar "From CHAT to critical CHAT, organized by Professor Kris >>>> Gutierrez and Edward Rivero at University of California Berkeley (Spring >>>> 2020). The course was attended by roughly 50 scholars from various parts of >>>> the US and Europe. >>>> >>>> Go to our Youtube Library >>>> for >>>> longer interviews and presentations by distinguished CHAT scholars and >>>> educators. >>>> *Victoria >>>> * >>>> | November 23, 2020 at 6:16 pm | Categories: Video Series: Join the >>>> discussion >>>> >>>> | URL: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/?p=727__;!!Mih3wA!QV049-QI5P9Q_lwCWb1l7ILu60fCpMgRm4nK8hiZwlVsnQq5t24Hsx2Hzq5oCKBtHzYyUg$ >>>> >>>> >>>> Comment >>>> >>>> See all comments >>>> >>>> >>>> Unsubscribe >>>> >>>> to no longer receive posts from Cultural Praxis. >>>> Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> *Trouble clicking?* Copy and paste this URL into your browser: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/23/why-generations/__;!!Mih3wA!QV049-QI5P9Q_lwCWb1l7ILu60fCpMgRm4nK8hiZwlVsnQq5t24Hsx2Hzq5oCKApGLU-ow$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > > -- > Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) > Associate Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center > Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping > University > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Office: 2306 James Hall > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201125/638bc063/attachment.html From cortez.arturo@gmail.com Wed Nov 25 10:01:35 2020 From: cortez.arturo@gmail.com (Arturo Cortez) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 11:01:35 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> Hi, all. My apologies for sending out what was intended as a private message. One of the things that may not be known is that many people of color and femme-identified people in this group have off channel discussions about the participation in this space. I cannot speak for all, but there is a concern that xmca is hostile and toxic to us. What you saw was an extension of that conversation. Specifically, it was a message from another colleague asking how to provide support on this specific conversation. My message was a full unfiltered expression of my frustration with how I, as a person of color and junior scholar, feel marginalized in this space. I?d like to invite any discussion from you all about this. But, in all honesty I?d like us to focus back on the discussion between Anna and Dr. Engestr?m. Should others want to weigh in or speak with me personally feel free to private message me. Again, my deepest apologies. I hope this conversation will open up new ways for having dialogue in this space. In addition, I hope my inadvertent private message will highlight how some of us feel and have expressed in prior messages on this listserv. While brutally honest, this was an honest mistake; a colleague reminded me. With regards, Arturo Arturo Cortez, PhD Assistant Professor Teacher Learning, Research & Practice Learning Sciences & Human Development School of Education | UCB 249 | Room 314 University of Colorado Boulder Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Territories 415.261.3155 (mobile) https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cuboulder.zoom.us/my/arturocortez__;!!Mih3wA!Wms1MwTQY1U9LeL4PxYaxFf3-zpw7tWFdagjOU1slyzkHdcsAefl9jrrashzVQ7YOzhaoA$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/education__;!!Mih3wA!Wms1MwTQY1U9LeL4PxYaxFf3-zpw7tWFdagjOU1slyzkHdcsAefl9jrrashzVQ52IN0QVw$ Sign up for office hours here. > On Nov 25, 2020, at 09:23, Arturo Cortez wrote: > > For real!! Those fools ain?t worth your brilliance. But, real talk: did Anthony Barra say that I misunderstood because of my language and culture? That s**t is racist, if so. > > You doing alright? I need to figure out how to chill with you one day. Wish we lived closer, but I know we?ll figure it out. > > Lots of love to you and your family. Thank you for checking in. And let?s take a break from these jerks. I needed to make sure that student didn?t get framed in a messed up way and I assumed there would be blowback. If these fools had any power I?d be concerned. While their insignificance annoys me, it annoys me further that they think anything they say matters beyond their bubble and to that matter: I don?t think it is possible to engage them in any reflection as it is impossible for them to apologize. So check minus to them. > > Love you!!! > > Talk soon, > Arturo > > Arturo Cortez, PhD > Assistant Professor > Teacher Learning, Research & Practice > Learning Sciences & Human Development > School of Education | UCB 249 | Room 314 > University of Colorado Boulder > Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Territories > 415.261.3155 (mobile) > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cuboulder.zoom.us/my/arturocortez__;!!Mih3wA!Wms1MwTQY1U9LeL4PxYaxFf3-zpw7tWFdagjOU1slyzkHdcsAefl9jrrashzVQ7YOzhaoA$ > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/education__;!!Mih3wA!Wms1MwTQY1U9LeL4PxYaxFf3-zpw7tWFdagjOU1slyzkHdcsAefl9jrrashzVQ52IN0QVw$ > > Sign up for office hours here. > > >> On Nov 24, 2020, at 19:34, Anthony Barra wrote: >> >> You should not be upset, Andy, as there was nothing negative in the way you introduced that video. >> >> Sometimes, in cross-cultural settings, a phrase or two can translate in unexpected ways. But that's a small price to pay, compared to the much larger benefits of an international community. >> >> Happily, everyone is back on the same page now. So keep your head high. >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 7:11 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >>> I never intended my message to frame Anna's question as "adversarial." Of course it was genuine! It is also true that many people have been wanting an answer to this question and I meant to applaud Anna for posing the question to Yjro. As it happens Yrjo gave an excellent answer to the question. He both explained how it has led to unfortunate misunderstandings of which he was well aware, and the original, perfectly good meaning that the term has. >>> >>> Obviously I am upset that what I intended as praise for Anna's action has been construed in this way. One lives, one learns. I am sorry. I hope now that xmca-ers who are interested in Yrjo's work will have a look at the video and maybe make a comment on it, and we will all have learnt. >>> >>> andy >>> >>> Andy Blunden >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> Home Page >>>> On 25/11/2020 4:06 am, ARTURO CORTEZ wrote: >>>> Hi, Andy. >>>> >>>> Thanks for bringing this video to the attention of xmca. As a co-designer and participant in the course, I would frame this differently. Anna asked a genuine question that she (and others) had and was eager to learn more about 4th Gen from an expert, Dr. Engestr?m, who was very responsive. The class was a very generative space and I don?t recall an adversarial or confrontational instance (and I?ve analyzed the videos) during Yrjo?s talk or others. As someone who was there, I thought it was important to share this context. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Arturo >>>> >>>>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 5:26 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >>>>> See the latest video clip on culturalpraxis.net - a young researcher puts Yrjo on the spot with the question everyone has been asking: What's this with the "fourth generation"? >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> New post on Cultural Praxis >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Why generations? >>>>> by Victoria >>>>> >>>>> In this video Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question on the reasons to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical activity theory (CHAT). The piece is an excerpt from the seminar "From CHAT to critical CHAT, organized by Professor Kris Gutierrez and Edward Rivero at University of California Berkeley (Spring 2020). The course was attended by roughly 50 scholars from various parts of the US and Europe. >>>>> >>>>> Go to our Youtube Library for longer interviews and presentations by distinguished CHAT scholars and educators. >>>>> >>>>> Victoria | November 23, 2020 at 6:16 pm | Categories: Video Series: Join the discussion | URL: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/?p=727__;!!Mih3wA!Wms1MwTQY1U9LeL4PxYaxFf3-zpw7tWFdagjOU1slyzkHdcsAefl9jrrashzVQ6dh7cp8g$ >>>>> Comment See all comments >>>>> Unsubscribe to no longer receive posts from Cultural Praxis. >>>>> Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions. >>>>> >>>>> Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/23/why-generations/__;!!Mih3wA!Wms1MwTQY1U9LeL4PxYaxFf3-zpw7tWFdagjOU1slyzkHdcsAefl9jrrashzVQ7Jy1o0hA$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201125/b89a0d4e/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Wed Nov 25 10:33:33 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 13:33:33 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you for your clarification, Arturo. I completely agree that the discussion henceforth should focus on the video at hand! If I may, however: Andy wrote the following, and yet was called a jerk, insignificant, powerless, etc: "I never intended my message to frame Anna's question as "adversarial." Of course it was genuine! It is also true that many people have been wanting an answer to this question and I meant to applaud Anna for posing the question to Yjro. As it happens Yrjo gave an excellent answer to the question. He both explained how it has led to unfortunate misunderstandings of which he was well aware, and the original, perfectly good meaning that the term has. Obviously I am upset that what I intended as praise for Anna's action has been construed in this way. One lives, one learns. I am sorry. I hope now that xmca-ers who are interested in Yrjo's work will have a look at the video and maybe make a comment on it, and we will all have learnt." Myself, on the other hand? Read my remarks as uncharitably as you'd like, if that's your preference, although that was certainly not my intent -- and you can slander me too if that feels good, publicly or privately, though I don't see why. But the insults toward Andy, who gives often and freely and who was simply sharing an interesting video discussion, were inaccurate and unnecessary. Happy Thanksgiving, and happy quarantining to those of us locked down during the holidays. ? Anthony P.S. On a better note, I believe Monica Lemos has the full video that Charles asked about today. Perhaps she can share it with any interested parties. Thank you. On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 1:04 PM Arturo Cortez wrote: > Hi, all. > > My apologies for sending out what was intended as a private message. One > of the things that may not be known is that many people of color and > femme-identified people in this group have off channel discussions about > the participation in this space. I cannot speak for all, but there is a > concern that xmca is hostile and toxic to us. What you saw was an extension > of that conversation. Specifically, it was a message from another colleague > asking how to provide support on this specific conversation. My message > was a full unfiltered expression of my frustration with how I, as a person > of color and junior scholar, feel marginalized in this space. > > I?d like to invite any discussion from you all about this. But, in all > honesty I?d like us to focus back on the discussion between Anna and Dr. > Engestr?m. Should others want to weigh in or speak with me personally feel > free to private message me. > > Again, my deepest apologies. I hope this conversation will open up new > ways for having dialogue in this space. In addition, I hope my inadvertent > private message will highlight how some of us feel and have expressed in > prior messages on this listserv. While brutally honest, this was an honest > mistake; a colleague reminded me. > > With regards, > Arturo > > Arturo Cortez, PhD > > Assistant Professor > > Teacher Learning, Research & Practice > > > Learning Sciences & Human Development > > > School of Education | UCB 249 | Room 314 > > University of Colorado Boulder > > Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Territories > > 415.261.3155 (mobile) > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cuboulder.zoom.us/my/arturocortez__;!!Mih3wA!VP2O1_V6Qlus_twq5YYLC_YbuTtDPFhzNJKnE-R99BH8R3PN9QNlc11tKNm56ljgZEItnA$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/education__;!!Mih3wA!VP2O1_V6Qlus_twq5YYLC_YbuTtDPFhzNJKnE-R99BH8R3PN9QNlc11tKNm56livwP95Dg$ > > > > Sign up for office hours here > > . > > On Nov 25, 2020, at 09:23, Arturo Cortez wrote: > > For real!! Those fools ain?t worth your brilliance. But, real talk: did > Anthony Barra say that I misunderstood because of my language and culture? > That s**t is racist, if so. > > You doing alright? I need to figure out how to chill with you one day. > Wish we lived closer, but I know we?ll figure it out. > > Lots of love to you and your family. Thank you for checking in. And let?s > take a break from these jerks. I needed to make sure that student didn?t > get framed in a messed up way and I assumed there would be blowback. If > these fools had any power I?d be concerned. While their insignificance > annoys me, it annoys me further that they think anything they say matters > beyond their bubble and to that matter: I don?t think it is possible to > engage them in any reflection as it is impossible for them to apologize. So > check minus to them. > > Love you!!! > > Talk soon, > Arturo > > Arturo Cortez, PhD > > Assistant Professor > > Teacher Learning, Research & Practice > > > Learning Sciences & Human Development > > > School of Education | UCB 249 | Room 314 > > University of Colorado Boulder > > Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Territories > > 415.261.3155 (mobile) > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cuboulder.zoom.us/my/arturocortez__;!!Mih3wA!VP2O1_V6Qlus_twq5YYLC_YbuTtDPFhzNJKnE-R99BH8R3PN9QNlc11tKNm56ljgZEItnA$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/education__;!!Mih3wA!VP2O1_V6Qlus_twq5YYLC_YbuTtDPFhzNJKnE-R99BH8R3PN9QNlc11tKNm56livwP95Dg$ > > > > Sign up for office hours here > > . > > On Nov 24, 2020, at 19:34, Anthony Barra wrote: > > You should not be upset, Andy, as there was nothing negative in the way > you introduced that video. > > Sometimes, in cross-cultural settings, a phrase or two can translate in > unexpected ways. But that's a small price to pay, compared to the much > larger benefits of an international community. > > Happily, everyone is back on the same page now. So keep your head high. > > Anthony > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 7:11 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> I never intended my message to frame Anna's question as "adversarial." Of >> course it was genuine! It is also true that many people have been wanting >> an answer to this question and I meant to applaud Anna for posing the >> question to Yjro. As it happens Yrjo gave an excellent answer to the >> question. He both explained how it has led to unfortunate misunderstandings >> of which he was well aware, and the original, perfectly good meaning that >> the term has. >> >> Obviously I am upset that what I intended as praise for Anna's action has >> been construed in this way. One lives, one learns. I am sorry. I hope now >> that xmca-ers who are interested in Yrjo's work will have a look at the >> video and maybe make a comment on it, and we will all have learnt. >> >> andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 25/11/2020 4:06 am, ARTURO CORTEZ wrote: >> >> Hi, Andy. >> >> Thanks for bringing this video to the attention of xmca. As a co-designer >> and participant in the course, I would frame this differently. Anna asked a >> genuine question that she (and others) had and was eager to learn more >> about 4th Gen from an expert, Dr. Engestr?m, who was very responsive. The >> class was a very generative space and I don?t recall an adversarial or >> confrontational instance (and I?ve analyzed the videos) during Yrjo?s talk >> or others. As someone who was there, I thought it was important to share >> this context. >> >> Best, >> Arturo >> >> On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 5:26 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> See the latest video clip on culturalpraxis.net >>> >>> - a young researcher puts Yrjo on the spot with the question everyone has >>> been asking: What's this with the "fourth generation"? >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> Victoria posted: " >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XijCqxkpHLU&feature=youtu.be__;!!Mih3wA!VP2O1_V6Qlus_twq5YYLC_YbuTtDPFhzNJKnE-R99BH8R3PN9QNlc11tKNm56ljOzv1b9Q$ In this video >>> Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question on the reasons >>> to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical activity theory >>> (CHAT). The piece is" >>> >>> >>> >>> New post on *Cultural Praxis* >>> >>> Why >>> generations? >>> by >>> Victoria >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> In this video Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question >>> on the reasons to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical >>> activity theory (CHAT). The piece is an excerpt from the seminar "From CHAT >>> to critical CHAT, organized by Professor Kris Gutierrez and Edward Rivero >>> at University of California Berkeley (Spring 2020). The course was attended >>> by roughly 50 scholars from various parts of the US and Europe. >>> >>> Go to our Youtube Library >>> for >>> longer interviews and presentations by distinguished CHAT scholars and >>> educators. >>> *Victoria >>> * >>> | November 23, 2020 at 6:16 pm | Categories: Video Series: Join the >>> discussion >>> >>> | URL: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/?p=727__;!!Mih3wA!VP2O1_V6Qlus_twq5YYLC_YbuTtDPFhzNJKnE-R99BH8R3PN9QNlc11tKNm56ljiHfZbDw$ >>> >>> >>> Comment >>> >>> See all comments >>> >>> >>> Unsubscribe >>> >>> to no longer receive posts from Cultural Praxis. >>> Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions >>> . >>> >>> >>> *Trouble clicking?* Copy and paste this URL into your browser: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/23/why-generations/__;!!Mih3wA!VP2O1_V6Qlus_twq5YYLC_YbuTtDPFhzNJKnE-R99BH8R3PN9QNlc11tKNm56lhNCPtP1w$ >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201125/2b1ec74b/attachment.html From bazerman@education.ucsb.edu Wed Nov 25 10:47:05 2020 From: bazerman@education.ucsb.edu (Charles Bazerman) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 10:47:05 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry, I was clueless about the discussion I was stepping into. Chuck ---- ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. History will judge. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!SK3ZyThsTUgVEQS-KXHuNm8Z9ku_wPaqB6aR5cldwz58Dbcgqx_0QiDOIV0hff4FbJC13w$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!SK3ZyThsTUgVEQS-KXHuNm8Z9ku_wPaqB6aR5cldwz58Dbcgqx_0QiDOIV0hff7jGcDxsg$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!SK3ZyThsTUgVEQS-KXHuNm8Z9ku_wPaqB6aR5cldwz58Dbcgqx_0QiDOIV0hff57IGjUPQ$ On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 10:36 AM Anthony Barra wrote: > Thank you for your clarification, Arturo. > > I completely agree that the discussion henceforth should focus on the > video at hand! > > If I may, however: > > Andy wrote the following, and yet was called a jerk, insignificant, > powerless, etc: "I never intended my message to frame Anna's question as > "adversarial." Of course it was genuine! It is also true that many people > have been wanting an answer to this question and I meant to applaud Anna > for posing the question to Yjro. As it happens Yrjo gave an excellent > answer to the question. He both explained how it has led to unfortunate > misunderstandings of which he was well aware, and the original, perfectly > good meaning that the term has. Obviously I am upset that what I intended > as praise for Anna's action has been construed in this way. One lives, one > learns. I am sorry. I hope now that xmca-ers who are interested in Yrjo's > work will have a look at the video and maybe make a comment on it, and we > will all have learnt." > > Myself, on the other hand? Read my remarks as uncharitably as you'd like, > if that's your preference, although that was certainly not my intent -- and > you can slander me too if that feels good, publicly or privately, though I > don't see why. > > But the insults toward Andy, who gives often and freely and who was simply > sharing an interesting video discussion, were inaccurate and unnecessary. > > Happy Thanksgiving, and happy quarantining to those of us locked down > during the holidays. ? > > Anthony > > P.S. On a better note, I believe Monica Lemos has the full video that > Charles asked about today. Perhaps she can share it with any interested > parties. Thank you. > > > On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 1:04 PM Arturo Cortez > wrote: > >> Hi, all. >> >> My apologies for sending out what was intended as a private message. One >> of the things that may not be known is that many people of color and >> femme-identified people in this group have off channel discussions about >> the participation in this space. I cannot speak for all, but there is a >> concern that xmca is hostile and toxic to us. What you saw was an extension >> of that conversation. Specifically, it was a message from another colleague >> asking how to provide support on this specific conversation. My message >> was a full unfiltered expression of my frustration with how I, as a person >> of color and junior scholar, feel marginalized in this space. >> >> I?d like to invite any discussion from you all about this. But, in all >> honesty I?d like us to focus back on the discussion between Anna and Dr. >> Engestr?m. Should others want to weigh in or speak with me personally feel >> free to private message me. >> >> Again, my deepest apologies. I hope this conversation will open up new >> ways for having dialogue in this space. In addition, I hope my inadvertent >> private message will highlight how some of us feel and have expressed in >> prior messages on this listserv. While brutally honest, this was an honest >> mistake; a colleague reminded me. >> >> With regards, >> Arturo >> >> Arturo Cortez, PhD >> >> Assistant Professor >> >> Teacher Learning, Research & Practice >> >> >> Learning Sciences & Human Development >> >> >> School of Education | UCB 249 | Room 314 >> >> University of Colorado Boulder >> >> Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Territories >> >> 415.261.3155 (mobile) >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cuboulder.zoom.us/my/arturocortez__;!!Mih3wA!SK3ZyThsTUgVEQS-KXHuNm8Z9ku_wPaqB6aR5cldwz58Dbcgqx_0QiDOIV0hff7t3lDs_A$ >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/education__;!!Mih3wA!SK3ZyThsTUgVEQS-KXHuNm8Z9ku_wPaqB6aR5cldwz58Dbcgqx_0QiDOIV0hff6OXN7avg$ >> >> >> >> Sign up for office hours here >> >> . >> >> On Nov 25, 2020, at 09:23, Arturo Cortez wrote: >> >> For real!! Those fools ain?t worth your brilliance. But, real talk: did >> Anthony Barra say that I misunderstood because of my language and culture? >> That s**t is racist, if so. >> >> You doing alright? I need to figure out how to chill with you one day. >> Wish we lived closer, but I know we?ll figure it out. >> >> Lots of love to you and your family. Thank you for checking in. And let?s >> take a break from these jerks. I needed to make sure that student didn?t >> get framed in a messed up way and I assumed there would be blowback. If >> these fools had any power I?d be concerned. While their insignificance >> annoys me, it annoys me further that they think anything they say matters >> beyond their bubble and to that matter: I don?t think it is possible to >> engage them in any reflection as it is impossible for them to apologize. So >> check minus to them. >> >> Love you!!! >> >> Talk soon, >> Arturo >> >> Arturo Cortez, PhD >> >> Assistant Professor >> >> Teacher Learning, Research & Practice >> >> >> Learning Sciences & Human Development >> >> >> School of Education | UCB 249 | Room 314 >> >> University of Colorado Boulder >> >> Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Territories >> >> 415.261.3155 (mobile) >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cuboulder.zoom.us/my/arturocortez__;!!Mih3wA!SK3ZyThsTUgVEQS-KXHuNm8Z9ku_wPaqB6aR5cldwz58Dbcgqx_0QiDOIV0hff7t3lDs_A$ >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/education__;!!Mih3wA!SK3ZyThsTUgVEQS-KXHuNm8Z9ku_wPaqB6aR5cldwz58Dbcgqx_0QiDOIV0hff6OXN7avg$ >> >> >> >> Sign up for office hours here >> >> . >> >> On Nov 24, 2020, at 19:34, Anthony Barra wrote: >> >> You should not be upset, Andy, as there was nothing negative in the way >> you introduced that video. >> >> Sometimes, in cross-cultural settings, a phrase or two can translate in >> unexpected ways. But that's a small price to pay, compared to the much >> larger benefits of an international community. >> >> Happily, everyone is back on the same page now. So keep your head high. >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 7:11 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> I never intended my message to frame Anna's question as "adversarial." >>> Of course it was genuine! It is also true that many people have been >>> wanting an answer to this question and I meant to applaud Anna for posing >>> the question to Yjro. As it happens Yrjo gave an excellent answer to the >>> question. He both explained how it has led to unfortunate misunderstandings >>> of which he was well aware, and the original, perfectly good meaning that >>> the term has. >>> >>> Obviously I am upset that what I intended as praise for Anna's action >>> has been construed in this way. One lives, one learns. I am sorry. I hope >>> now that xmca-ers who are interested in Yrjo's work will have a look at the >>> video and maybe make a comment on it, and we will all have learnt. >>> >>> andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 25/11/2020 4:06 am, ARTURO CORTEZ wrote: >>> >>> Hi, Andy. >>> >>> Thanks for bringing this video to the attention of xmca. As a >>> co-designer and participant in the course, I would frame this differently. >>> Anna asked a genuine question that she (and others) had and was eager to >>> learn more about 4th Gen from an expert, Dr. Engestr?m, who was very >>> responsive. The class was a very generative space and I don?t recall an >>> adversarial or confrontational instance (and I?ve analyzed the videos) >>> during Yrjo?s talk or others. As someone who was there, I thought it was >>> important to share this context. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arturo >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 5:26 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>>> See the latest video clip on culturalpraxis.net >>>> >>>> - a young researcher puts Yrjo on the spot with the question everyone has >>>> been asking: What's this with the "fourth generation"? >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> >>>> Victoria posted: " >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XijCqxkpHLU&feature=youtu.be__;!!Mih3wA!SK3ZyThsTUgVEQS-KXHuNm8Z9ku_wPaqB6aR5cldwz58Dbcgqx_0QiDOIV0hff7qkoYgyA$ In this video >>>> Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question on the reasons >>>> to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical activity theory >>>> (CHAT). The piece is" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> New post on *Cultural Praxis* >>>> >>>> Why >>>> generations? >>>> by >>>> Victoria >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In this video Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's >>>> question on the reasons to use the term generations to approach >>>> cultural-historical activity theory (CHAT). The piece is an excerpt from >>>> the seminar "From CHAT to critical CHAT, organized by Professor Kris >>>> Gutierrez and Edward Rivero at University of California Berkeley (Spring >>>> 2020). The course was attended by roughly 50 scholars from various parts of >>>> the US and Europe. >>>> >>>> Go to our Youtube Library >>>> for >>>> longer interviews and presentations by distinguished CHAT scholars and >>>> educators. >>>> *Victoria >>>> * >>>> | November 23, 2020 at 6:16 pm | Categories: Video Series: Join the >>>> discussion >>>> >>>> | URL: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/?p=727__;!!Mih3wA!SK3ZyThsTUgVEQS-KXHuNm8Z9ku_wPaqB6aR5cldwz58Dbcgqx_0QiDOIV0hff4v6uUIQQ$ >>>> >>>> >>>> Comment >>>> >>>> See all comments >>>> >>>> >>>> Unsubscribe >>>> >>>> to no longer receive posts from Cultural Praxis. >>>> Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> *Trouble clicking?* Copy and paste this URL into your browser: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/23/why-generations/__;!!Mih3wA!SK3ZyThsTUgVEQS-KXHuNm8Z9ku_wPaqB6aR5cldwz58Dbcgqx_0QiDOIV0hff6h0u6ubA$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201125/4f367e62/attachment.html From ajrajala@gmail.com Wed Nov 25 11:14:43 2020 From: ajrajala@gmail.com (Antti Rajala) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 21:14:43 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all, Anthony - I think there is not a permission to share the full video, as the clip was taken from the course material. I think it is important to see beyond this one conflict to a pattern in which many people feel marginalized from the conversation. Like Arturo, I also know a large number of people who opt out from participating in xmca because they feel that the way of communicating is hostile and exclusive. Certainly, there is no easy way to address and handle these contradictions in a constructive manner but these issues do deserve a discussion, I believe. Best wishes, Antti On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 at 20:36, Anthony Barra wrote: > Thank you for your clarification, Arturo. > > I completely agree that the discussion henceforth should focus on the > video at hand! > > If I may, however: > > Andy wrote the following, and yet was called a jerk, insignificant, > powerless, etc: "I never intended my message to frame Anna's question as > "adversarial." Of course it was genuine! It is also true that many people > have been wanting an answer to this question and I meant to applaud Anna > for posing the question to Yjro. As it happens Yrjo gave an excellent > answer to the question. He both explained how it has led to unfortunate > misunderstandings of which he was well aware, and the original, perfectly > good meaning that the term has. Obviously I am upset that what I intended > as praise for Anna's action has been construed in this way. One lives, one > learns. I am sorry. I hope now that xmca-ers who are interested in Yrjo's > work will have a look at the video and maybe make a comment on it, and we > will all have learnt." > > Myself, on the other hand? Read my remarks as uncharitably as you'd like, > if that's your preference, although that was certainly not my intent -- and > you can slander me too if that feels good, publicly or privately, though I > don't see why. > > But the insults toward Andy, who gives often and freely and who was simply > sharing an interesting video discussion, were inaccurate and unnecessary. > > Happy Thanksgiving, and happy quarantining to those of us locked down > during the holidays. ? > > Anthony > > P.S. On a better note, I believe Monica Lemos has the full video that > Charles asked about today. Perhaps she can share it with any interested > parties. Thank you. > > > On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 1:04 PM Arturo Cortez > wrote: > >> Hi, all. >> >> My apologies for sending out what was intended as a private message. One >> of the things that may not be known is that many people of color and >> femme-identified people in this group have off channel discussions about >> the participation in this space. I cannot speak for all, but there is a >> concern that xmca is hostile and toxic to us. What you saw was an extension >> of that conversation. Specifically, it was a message from another colleague >> asking how to provide support on this specific conversation. My message >> was a full unfiltered expression of my frustration with how I, as a person >> of color and junior scholar, feel marginalized in this space. >> >> I?d like to invite any discussion from you all about this. But, in all >> honesty I?d like us to focus back on the discussion between Anna and Dr. >> Engestr?m. Should others want to weigh in or speak with me personally feel >> free to private message me. >> >> Again, my deepest apologies. I hope this conversation will open up new >> ways for having dialogue in this space. In addition, I hope my inadvertent >> private message will highlight how some of us feel and have expressed in >> prior messages on this listserv. While brutally honest, this was an honest >> mistake; a colleague reminded me. >> >> With regards, >> Arturo >> >> Arturo Cortez, PhD >> >> Assistant Professor >> >> Teacher Learning, Research & Practice >> >> >> Learning Sciences & Human Development >> >> >> School of Education | UCB 249 | Room 314 >> >> University of Colorado Boulder >> >> Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Territories >> >> 415.261.3155 (mobile) >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cuboulder.zoom.us/my/arturocortez__;!!Mih3wA!QYhQET5zqqHPV5a016e1Tsy1jf4TlpIrtAXlvnILolW8p8wMnXKH450k9xJWVNaEp0SnNg$ >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/education__;!!Mih3wA!QYhQET5zqqHPV5a016e1Tsy1jf4TlpIrtAXlvnILolW8p8wMnXKH450k9xJWVNa3XobbIA$ >> >> >> >> Sign up for office hours here >> >> . >> >> On Nov 25, 2020, at 09:23, Arturo Cortez wrote: >> >> For real!! Those fools ain?t worth your brilliance. But, real talk: did >> Anthony Barra say that I misunderstood because of my language and culture? >> That s**t is racist, if so. >> >> You doing alright? I need to figure out how to chill with you one day. >> Wish we lived closer, but I know we?ll figure it out. >> >> Lots of love to you and your family. Thank you for checking in. And let?s >> take a break from these jerks. I needed to make sure that student didn?t >> get framed in a messed up way and I assumed there would be blowback. If >> these fools had any power I?d be concerned. While their insignificance >> annoys me, it annoys me further that they think anything they say matters >> beyond their bubble and to that matter: I don?t think it is possible to >> engage them in any reflection as it is impossible for them to apologize. So >> check minus to them. >> >> Love you!!! >> >> Talk soon, >> Arturo >> >> Arturo Cortez, PhD >> >> Assistant Professor >> >> Teacher Learning, Research & Practice >> >> >> Learning Sciences & Human Development >> >> >> School of Education | UCB 249 | Room 314 >> >> University of Colorado Boulder >> >> Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Territories >> >> 415.261.3155 (mobile) >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cuboulder.zoom.us/my/arturocortez__;!!Mih3wA!QYhQET5zqqHPV5a016e1Tsy1jf4TlpIrtAXlvnILolW8p8wMnXKH450k9xJWVNaEp0SnNg$ >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/education__;!!Mih3wA!QYhQET5zqqHPV5a016e1Tsy1jf4TlpIrtAXlvnILolW8p8wMnXKH450k9xJWVNa3XobbIA$ >> >> >> >> Sign up for office hours here >> >> . >> >> On Nov 24, 2020, at 19:34, Anthony Barra wrote: >> >> You should not be upset, Andy, as there was nothing negative in the way >> you introduced that video. >> >> Sometimes, in cross-cultural settings, a phrase or two can translate in >> unexpected ways. But that's a small price to pay, compared to the much >> larger benefits of an international community. >> >> Happily, everyone is back on the same page now. So keep your head high. >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 7:11 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> I never intended my message to frame Anna's question as "adversarial." >>> Of course it was genuine! It is also true that many people have been >>> wanting an answer to this question and I meant to applaud Anna for posing >>> the question to Yjro. As it happens Yrjo gave an excellent answer to the >>> question. He both explained how it has led to unfortunate misunderstandings >>> of which he was well aware, and the original, perfectly good meaning that >>> the term has. >>> >>> Obviously I am upset that what I intended as praise for Anna's action >>> has been construed in this way. One lives, one learns. I am sorry. I hope >>> now that xmca-ers who are interested in Yrjo's work will have a look at the >>> video and maybe make a comment on it, and we will all have learnt. >>> >>> andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 25/11/2020 4:06 am, ARTURO CORTEZ wrote: >>> >>> Hi, Andy. >>> >>> Thanks for bringing this video to the attention of xmca. As a >>> co-designer and participant in the course, I would frame this differently. >>> Anna asked a genuine question that she (and others) had and was eager to >>> learn more about 4th Gen from an expert, Dr. Engestr?m, who was very >>> responsive. The class was a very generative space and I don?t recall an >>> adversarial or confrontational instance (and I?ve analyzed the videos) >>> during Yrjo?s talk or others. As someone who was there, I thought it was >>> important to share this context. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arturo >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 5:26 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>>> See the latest video clip on culturalpraxis.net >>>> >>>> - a young researcher puts Yrjo on the spot with the question everyone has >>>> been asking: What's this with the "fourth generation"? >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> >>>> Victoria posted: " >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XijCqxkpHLU&feature=youtu.be__;!!Mih3wA!QYhQET5zqqHPV5a016e1Tsy1jf4TlpIrtAXlvnILolW8p8wMnXKH450k9xJWVNZcyO27og$ In this video >>>> Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question on the reasons >>>> to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical activity theory >>>> (CHAT). The piece is" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> New post on *Cultural Praxis* >>>> >>>> Why >>>> generations? >>>> by >>>> Victoria >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In this video Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's >>>> question on the reasons to use the term generations to approach >>>> cultural-historical activity theory (CHAT). The piece is an excerpt from >>>> the seminar "From CHAT to critical CHAT, organized by Professor Kris >>>> Gutierrez and Edward Rivero at University of California Berkeley (Spring >>>> 2020). The course was attended by roughly 50 scholars from various parts of >>>> the US and Europe. >>>> >>>> Go to our Youtube Library >>>> for >>>> longer interviews and presentations by distinguished CHAT scholars and >>>> educators. >>>> *Victoria >>>> * >>>> | November 23, 2020 at 6:16 pm | Categories: Video Series: Join the >>>> discussion >>>> >>>> | URL: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/?p=727__;!!Mih3wA!QYhQET5zqqHPV5a016e1Tsy1jf4TlpIrtAXlvnILolW8p8wMnXKH450k9xJWVNblmCEoIg$ >>>> >>>> >>>> Comment >>>> >>>> See all comments >>>> >>>> >>>> Unsubscribe >>>> >>>> to no longer receive posts from Cultural Praxis. >>>> Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> *Trouble clicking?* Copy and paste this URL into your browser: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/23/why-generations/__;!!Mih3wA!QYhQET5zqqHPV5a016e1Tsy1jf4TlpIrtAXlvnILolW8p8wMnXKH450k9xJWVNYJcIzKog$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201125/b895f3be/attachment-0001.html From mckinneyderoyston@wisc.edu Wed Nov 25 12:31:29 2020 From: mckinneyderoyston@wisc.edu (Maxine McKinney de Royston) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 20:31:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> Thank you, Beth, for generously recognizing that we?ve all made the mistake before of having something that was private become unintentionally public. I wish we would have heeded your call to not respond to the private elements of that email. I don?t see the collective utility of personalizing its contents. If anyone feels a specific way about that, Arturo has opened himself up to people contacting him directly. Thanks, Antti, for noting that this current situation reflects a pattern of marginalization on this listserv rather than an exceptional incident. I want to take up Arturo?s invitation for further discussion with the hope that our discussions of this incident ?will open up new ways for having dialogue in this space? (from Arturo?s email) I?d like to invite us to discuss the toxicity and marginalization that Arturo points to on this listserv. As a Black woman based in the United States, I have stayed on this listserv over the years because of my interests in CHAT and sociocultural theories of teaching and learning. However, I rarely post on it because I often find the tone of the interlocuters here to be condescending, patronizing, and othering. For me, this is a sad irony....that the principles of CHAT that many of us study and advance in our scholarly endeavors is not carried through in our interpersonal exchanges on this listserv. The recent exchange around the video offers a great opportunity to explore these issues. As analysts, I offer up a quick and dirty artifact through which to mediate our discussion. This is not a full analysis nor are the terms within it perfect; this is what I have constructed in the last 10 minutes. It is also not meant to critique people, rather to surface my interpretation of the interactional exchange and invite your wonderings and noticings. Initial interaction: 1. Andy?frames video 2. Arturo?reframes video and the course. Attends to the multiple cultural meanings ?putting someone on the spot? might have, with one being implying an adversarial interaction 3. Antti?legitimizes Arturo?s reframing of video and course 4. Monica?legitimizes Arturo?s reframing of video 5. Jos??offers appreciation for Arturo?s reframing of video and course 6. Andy?apologizes for his framing of the video, clarifies his intent, expresses he is ?upset,? bids for listserv to return to the video Summary: Interaction was initiated (Andy), repaired (multiple people), repair was accepted (Andy). This could have ended here with the accepting of the repair by Andy. Re-opening of the interaction: 1. Anthony?rejects Andy?s bid to return to the video, delegitimizes Arturo?s reframing of the video, legitimizes Andy?s framing of the video, cites cross-cultural meanings, soothes and affirms Andy, bid 2. Beth?rejects Anthony?s cross-cultural framing, re-legitimizes Arturo?s reframing, bids for understanding silencing and harm, legitimizes Andy and Arturo?s contributions, bids for multiple understandings rather than a unified shared understanding 3. Arturo?expresses publicly private concerns about silencing, racism, and power dynamics on and off the listserv 4. Beth?bids for understanding and to disregard Arturo?s latest turn 5. Chuck?expresses interest in the video, does not mention prior conflict, possibly makes a bid for a new exchange? 6. Arturo?apologizes for public comments, clarifies their private nature, modifies Beth?s bid for disregarding the email and instead invites public discussions of marginalization and private discussions about private concerns/feelings 7. Anthony?rejects Beth?s bid to disregard, rejects Arturo?s bid for private discussion about private concerns/feelings, highlights personal attacks, protects and affirms Andy 8. Chuck?confirms their lack of a bid for a new exchange 9. Antti?legitimizes Arturo?s bid for public discussions of marginalization 10. Maxine?takes up Arturo?s (and Antti?s) bid for public discussion, highlights marginalization on listserv For me, the interactional moves happening here should give us pause. After some back and forth emails that legitimize Arturo?s reframing about the context and the nature of the video and the exchange, Andy apologies, clarifies his intent, and makes a bid to move on. That bid wasn?t taken up. Instead, something interesting happens, a bid is made to legitimize and soothe Andy?s feelings about how his framing was understood. This is interesting to me. I wonder why this was necessary and why the delegitimizing of Arturo?s reframing had to be part of it. What do other?s wonder and notice about these interactions? Best, Maxine (first name) McKinney de Royston (last name) Assistant Professor, Curriculum & Instruction University of Wisconsin- Madison @profm_de_r Office hour scheduling: calendly.com/mckinneyderoyston Co-editor of The Handbook of the Cultural Foundations of Learning (Routledge) From: on behalf of "ajrajala@gmail.com" Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2020 at 1:17 PM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? Dear all, Anthony - I think there is not a permission to share the full video, as the clip was taken from the course material. I think it is important to see beyond this one conflict to a pattern in which many people feel marginalized from the conversation. Like Arturo, I also know a large number of people who opt out from participating in xmca because they feel that the way of communicating is hostile and exclusive. Certainly, there is no easy way to address and handle these contradictions in a constructive manner but these issues do deserve a discussion, I believe. Best wishes, Antti On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 at 20:36, Anthony Barra > wrote: Thank you for your clarification, Arturo. I completely agree that the discussion henceforth should focus on the video at hand! If I may, however: Andy wrote the following, and yet was called a jerk, insignificant, powerless, etc: "I never intended my message to frame Anna's question as "adversarial." Of course it was genuine! It is also true that many people have been wanting an answer to this question and I meant to applaud Anna for posing the question to Yjro. As it happens Yrjo gave an excellent answer to the question. He both explained how it has led to unfortunate misunderstandings of which he was well aware, and the original, perfectly good meaning that the term has. Obviously I am upset that what I intended as praise for Anna's action has been construed in this way. One lives, one learns. I am sorry. I hope now that xmca-ers who are interested in Yrjo's work will have a look at the video and maybe make a comment on it, and we will all have learnt." Myself, on the other hand? Read my remarks as uncharitably as you'd like, if that's your preference, although that was certainly not my intent -- and you can slander me too if that feels good, publicly or privately, though I don't see why. But the insults toward Andy, who gives often and freely and who was simply sharing an interesting video discussion, were inaccurate and unnecessary. Happy Thanksgiving, and happy quarantining to those of us locked down during the holidays. ? Anthony P.S. On a better note, I believe Monica Lemos has the full video that Charles asked about today. Perhaps she can share it with any interested parties. Thank you. On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 1:04 PM Arturo Cortez > wrote: Hi, all. My apologies for sending out what was intended as a private message. One of the things that may not be known is that many people of color and femme-identified people in this group have off channel discussions about the participation in this space. I cannot speak for all, but there is a concern that xmca is hostile and toxic to us. What you saw was an extension of that conversation. Specifically, it was a message from another colleague asking how to provide support on this specific conversation. My message was a full unfiltered expression of my frustration with how I, as a person of color and junior scholar, feel marginalized in this space. I?d like to invite any discussion from you all about this. But, in all honesty I?d like us to focus back on the discussion between Anna and Dr. Engestr?m. Should others want to weigh in or speak with me personally feel free to private message me. Again, my deepest apologies. I hope this conversation will open up new ways for having dialogue in this space. In addition, I hope my inadvertent private message will highlight how some of us feel and have expressed in prior messages on this listserv. While brutally honest, this was an honest mistake; a colleague reminded me. With regards, Arturo Arturo Cortez, PhD Assistant Professor Teacher Learning, Research & Practice Learning Sciences & Human Development School of Education | UCB 249 | Room 314 University of Colorado Boulder Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Territories 415.261.3155 (mobile) https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cuboulder.zoom.us/my/arturocortez__;!!Mih3wA!QGKI3OlCAz47DHwCnkchsjQkhvg1xL9UcNdVqhaaOnHCp1Jp-dre-GxaD7suKa6f7ukD-A$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/education__;!!Mih3wA!QGKI3OlCAz47DHwCnkchsjQkhvg1xL9UcNdVqhaaOnHCp1Jp-dre-GxaD7suKa7u_JXItQ$ Sign up for office hours here. On Nov 25, 2020, at 09:23, Arturo Cortez > wrote: For real!! Those fools ain?t worth your brilliance. But, real talk: did Anthony Barra say that I misunderstood because of my language and culture? That s**t is racist, if so. You doing alright? I need to figure out how to chill with you one day. Wish we lived closer, but I know we?ll figure it out. Lots of love to you and your family. Thank you for checking in. And let?s take a break from these jerks. I needed to make sure that student didn?t get framed in a messed up way and I assumed there would be blowback. If these fools had any power I?d be concerned. While their insignificance annoys me, it annoys me further that they think anything they say matters beyond their bubble and to that matter: I don?t think it is possible to engage them in any reflection as it is impossible for them to apologize. So check minus to them. Love you!!! Talk soon, Arturo Arturo Cortez, PhD Assistant Professor Teacher Learning, Research & Practice Learning Sciences & Human Development School of Education | UCB 249 | Room 314 University of Colorado Boulder Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Territories 415.261.3155 (mobile) https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cuboulder.zoom.us/my/arturocortez__;!!Mih3wA!QGKI3OlCAz47DHwCnkchsjQkhvg1xL9UcNdVqhaaOnHCp1Jp-dre-GxaD7suKa6f7ukD-A$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/education__;!!Mih3wA!QGKI3OlCAz47DHwCnkchsjQkhvg1xL9UcNdVqhaaOnHCp1Jp-dre-GxaD7suKa7u_JXItQ$ Sign up for office hours here. On Nov 24, 2020, at 19:34, Anthony Barra > wrote: You should not be upset, Andy, as there was nothing negative in the way you introduced that video. Sometimes, in cross-cultural settings, a phrase or two can translate in unexpected ways. But that's a small price to pay, compared to the much larger benefits of an international community. Happily, everyone is back on the same page now. So keep your head high. Anthony On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 7:11 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: I never intended my message to frame Anna's question as "adversarial." Of course it was genuine! It is also true that many people have been wanting an answer to this question and I meant to applaud Anna for posing the question to Yjro. As it happens Yrjo gave an excellent answer to the question. He both explained how it has led to unfortunate misunderstandings of which he was well aware, and the original, perfectly good meaning that the term has. Obviously I am upset that what I intended as praise for Anna's action has been construed in this way. One lives, one learns. I am sorry. I hope now that xmca-ers who are interested in Yrjo's work will have a look at the video and maybe make a comment on it, and we will all have learnt. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 25/11/2020 4:06 am, ARTURO CORTEZ wrote: Hi, Andy. Thanks for bringing this video to the attention of xmca. As a co-designer and participant in the course, I would frame this differently. Anna asked a genuine question that she (and others) had and was eager to learn more about 4th Gen from an expert, Dr. Engestr?m, who was very responsive. The class was a very generative space and I don?t recall an adversarial or confrontational instance (and I?ve analyzed the videos) during Yrjo?s talk or others. As someone who was there, I thought it was important to share this context. Best, Arturo On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 5:26 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: See the latest video clip on culturalpraxis.net - a young researcher puts Yrjo on the spot with the question everyone has been asking: What's this with the "fourth generation"? Andy Victoria posted: " https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XijCqxkpHLU&feature=youtu.be__;!!Mih3wA!QGKI3OlCAz47DHwCnkchsjQkhvg1xL9UcNdVqhaaOnHCp1Jp-dre-GxaD7suKa7JUcrVOw$ In this video Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question on the reasons to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical activity theory (CHAT). The piece is" New post on Cultural Praxis [https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://s0.wp.com/i/emails/blavatar.png__;!!Mih3wA!QGKI3OlCAz47DHwCnkchsjQkhvg1xL9UcNdVqhaaOnHCp1Jp-dre-GxaD7suKa6tUtqZoA$ ] [https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://0.gravatar.com/avatar/c93d7e4698cd7fdcd771f6d29b307205?s=50&d=http*3A*2F*2F0.gravatar.com*2Favatar*2Fad516503a11cd5ca435acc9bb6523536*3Fs*3D50&r=G__;JSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!QGKI3OlCAz47DHwCnkchsjQkhvg1xL9UcNdVqhaaOnHCp1Jp-dre-GxaD7suKa6eDkWtlQ$ ] Why generations? by Victoria [https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://img.youtube.com/vi/XijCqxkpHLU/0.jpg__;!!Mih3wA!QGKI3OlCAz47DHwCnkchsjQkhvg1xL9UcNdVqhaaOnHCp1Jp-dre-GxaD7suKa5J1wSHlw$ ] In this video Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question on the reasons to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical activity theory (CHAT). The piece is an excerpt from the seminar "From CHAT to critical CHAT, organized by Professor Kris Gutierrez and Edward Rivero at University of California Berkeley (Spring 2020). The course was attended by roughly 50 scholars from various parts of the US and Europe. Go to our Youtube Library for longer interviews and presentations by distinguished CHAT scholars and educators. Victoria | November 23, 2020 at 6:16 pm | Categories: Video Series: Join the discussion | URL: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/?p=727__;!!Mih3wA!QGKI3OlCAz47DHwCnkchsjQkhvg1xL9UcNdVqhaaOnHCp1Jp-dre-GxaD7suKa6LTcncMw$ Comment See all comments Unsubscribe to no longer receive posts from Cultural Praxis. Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions. Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/23/why-generations/__;!!Mih3wA!QGKI3OlCAz47DHwCnkchsjQkhvg1xL9UcNdVqhaaOnHCp1Jp-dre-GxaD7suKa5pZcIu3A$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201125/d87c2e56/attachment.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Wed Nov 25 13:43:29 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 21:43:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> Message-ID: <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> Thank you so much, Maxine, for your graceful contribution. I think that your turn (turn 10 in your analysis of the re-opening) does something else than taking ?up Arturo?s (and Antti?s) bid for public discussion, highlight[ing] marginalization on listserv?, which it does too. I think it does bring a scientific approach as a means to mediate the discussion, in the best possible sense I know of the word scientific: as a means to bring forth a better, mor just us. As someone who has in the past been condescending, patronizing, and otherwise have othered others in this listserv, without it having ever been my intention, I think a most important value in the scientific (sociocultural) approach that you have offered in your post/turn, Maxine, is that it allows us to understand the issues from a perspective that does not reduce the problem to (individual, personal) intentions, but looks at the concrete history of our listserv. It asks us to inquire into what sort of culture we have here in which these phenomena and ways of experiencing happen. I am sure no one here had the intention to hurt anyone, so the attempt to understand what sort of social context we are at and which these ways of hearing and responding to take place, is much more promising to bring good for all than an approach that looks for and reacts to (assumed/presumed) individuals? intentions. We may not yet understand how to generate a more inclusive space in this list serve, but the truth that people (and not anyone but mostly people of color, women, femme-identified people, junior scholars) feel marginalized or threatened in this listserv, that people feel that way and respond accordingly even when no one intended this to be so, is no less true because we (anyone) did not intend it to be this way. It is a truth that, as CHAT scholars, we cannot ignore or deny, and I am in many ways glad that we have this opportunity here to explore what the issues are and how our shared interest in CHAT may help us bring us forward. As someone who has in the past unintendedly brought forth reactions/responses that were not easy to deal with in this list, and as someone who certainly others may have had a hard time to deal with, I want to thank everyone who has so far spoken in this thread, Beth, Antti, Andy, Anthony, Arturo, and anyone else who I may have missed to mention, for taking the courage it takes to bring this conversation forward. Thank you. I just hope to be able to contribute to generating a space/context in which everyone with the noble intention of participating in scholarly dialogue finds no threat and feels welcome to contribute. Alfredo From: on behalf of Maxine McKinney de Royston Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Wednesday, 25 November 2020 at 21:36 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? Thank you, Beth, for generously recognizing that we?ve all made the mistake before of having something that was private become unintentionally public. I wish we would have heeded your call to not respond to the private elements of that email. I don?t see the collective utility of personalizing its contents. If anyone feels a specific way about that, Arturo has opened himself up to people contacting him directly. Thanks, Antti, for noting that this current situation reflects a pattern of marginalization on this listserv rather than an exceptional incident. I want to take up Arturo?s invitation for further discussion with the hope that our discussions of this incident ?will open up new ways for having dialogue in this space? (from Arturo?s email) I?d like to invite us to discuss the toxicity and marginalization that Arturo points to on this listserv. As a Black woman based in the United States, I have stayed on this listserv over the years because of my interests in CHAT and sociocultural theories of teaching and learning. However, I rarely post on it because I often find the tone of the interlocuters here to be condescending, patronizing, and othering. For me, this is a sad irony....that the principles of CHAT that many of us study and advance in our scholarly endeavors is not carried through in our interpersonal exchanges on this listserv. The recent exchange around the video offers a great opportunity to explore these issues. As analysts, I offer up a quick and dirty artifact through which to mediate our discussion. This is not a full analysis nor are the terms within it perfect; this is what I have constructed in the last 10 minutes. It is also not meant to critique people, rather to surface my interpretation of the interactional exchange and invite your wonderings and noticings. Initial interaction: 1. Andy?frames video 2. Arturo?reframes video and the course. Attends to the multiple cultural meanings ?putting someone on the spot? might have, with one being implying an adversarial interaction 3. Antti?legitimizes Arturo?s reframing of video and course 4. Monica?legitimizes Arturo?s reframing of video 5. Jos??offers appreciation for Arturo?s reframing of video and course 6. Andy?apologizes for his framing of the video, clarifies his intent, expresses he is ?upset,? bids for listserv to return to the video Summary: Interaction was initiated (Andy), repaired (multiple people), repair was accepted (Andy). This could have ended here with the accepting of the repair by Andy. Re-opening of the interaction: 1. Anthony?rejects Andy?s bid to return to the video, delegitimizes Arturo?s reframing of the video, legitimizes Andy?s framing of the video, cites cross-cultural meanings, soothes and affirms Andy, bid 2. Beth?rejects Anthony?s cross-cultural framing, re-legitimizes Arturo?s reframing, bids for understanding silencing and harm, legitimizes Andy and Arturo?s contributions, bids for multiple understandings rather than a unified shared understanding 3. Arturo?expresses publicly private concerns about silencing, racism, and power dynamics on and off the listserv 4. Beth?bids for understanding and to disregard Arturo?s latest turn 5. Chuck?expresses interest in the video, does not mention prior conflict, possibly makes a bid for a new exchange? 6. Arturo?apologizes for public comments, clarifies their private nature, modifies Beth?s bid for disregarding the email and instead invites public discussions of marginalization and private discussions about private concerns/feelings 7. Anthony?rejects Beth?s bid to disregard, rejects Arturo?s bid for private discussion about private concerns/feelings, highlights personal attacks, protects and affirms Andy 8. Chuck?confirms their lack of a bid for a new exchange 9. Antti?legitimizes Arturo?s bid for public discussions of marginalization 10. Maxine?takes up Arturo?s (and Antti?s) bid for public discussion, highlights marginalization on listserv For me, the interactional moves happening here should give us pause. After some back and forth emails that legitimize Arturo?s reframing about the context and the nature of the video and the exchange, Andy apologies, clarifies his intent, and makes a bid to move on. That bid wasn?t taken up. Instead, something interesting happens, a bid is made to legitimize and soothe Andy?s feelings about how his framing was understood. This is interesting to me. I wonder why this was necessary and why the delegitimizing of Arturo?s reframing had to be part of it. What do other?s wonder and notice about these interactions? Best, Maxine (first name) McKinney de Royston (last name) Assistant Professor, Curriculum & Instruction University of Wisconsin- Madison @profm_de_r Office hour scheduling: calendly.com/mckinneyderoyston Co-editor of The Handbook of the Cultural Foundations of Learning (Routledge) From: on behalf of "ajrajala@gmail.com" Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2020 at 1:17 PM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? Dear all, Anthony - I think there is not a permission to share the full video, as the clip was taken from the course material. I think it is important to see beyond this one conflict to a pattern in which many people feel marginalized from the conversation. Like Arturo, I also know a large number of people who opt out from participating in xmca because they feel that the way of communicating is hostile and exclusive. Certainly, there is no easy way to address and handle these contradictions in a constructive manner but these issues do deserve a discussion, I believe. Best wishes, Antti On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 at 20:36, Anthony Barra > wrote: Thank you for your clarification, Arturo. I completely agree that the discussion henceforth should focus on the video at hand! If I may, however: Andy wrote the following, and yet was called a jerk, insignificant, powerless, etc: "I never intended my message to frame Anna's question as "adversarial." Of course it was genuine! It is also true that many people have been wanting an answer to this question and I meant to applaud Anna for posing the question to Yjro. As it happens Yrjo gave an excellent answer to the question. He both explained how it has led to unfortunate misunderstandings of which he was well aware, and the original, perfectly good meaning that the term has. Obviously I am upset that what I intended as praise for Anna's action has been construed in this way. One lives, one learns. I am sorry. I hope now that xmca-ers who are interested in Yrjo's work will have a look at the video and maybe make a comment on it, and we will all have learnt." Myself, on the other hand? Read my remarks as uncharitably as you'd like, if that's your preference, although that was certainly not my intent -- and you can slander me too if that feels good, publicly or privately, though I don't see why. But the insults toward Andy, who gives often and freely and who was simply sharing an interesting video discussion, were inaccurate and unnecessary. Happy Thanksgiving, and happy quarantining to those of us locked down during the holidays. ? Anthony P.S. On a better note, I believe Monica Lemos has the full video that Charles asked about today. Perhaps she can share it with any interested parties. Thank you. On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 1:04 PM Arturo Cortez > wrote: Hi, all. My apologies for sending out what was intended as a private message. One of the things that may not be known is that many people of color and femme-identified people in this group have off channel discussions about the participation in this space. I cannot speak for all, but there is a concern that xmca is hostile and toxic to us. What you saw was an extension of that conversation. Specifically, it was a message from another colleague asking how to provide support on this specific conversation. My message was a full unfiltered expression of my frustration with how I, as a person of color and junior scholar, feel marginalized in this space. I?d like to invite any discussion from you all about this. But, in all honesty I?d like us to focus back on the discussion between Anna and Dr. Engestr?m. Should others want to weigh in or speak with me personally feel free to private message me. Again, my deepest apologies. I hope this conversation will open up new ways for having dialogue in this space. In addition, I hope my inadvertent private message will highlight how some of us feel and have expressed in prior messages on this listserv. While brutally honest, this was an honest mistake; a colleague reminded me. With regards, Arturo Arturo Cortez, PhD Assistant Professor Teacher Learning, Research & Practice Learning Sciences & Human Development School of Education | UCB 249 | Room 314 University of Colorado Boulder Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Territories 415.261.3155 (mobile) https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cuboulder.zoom.us/my/arturocortez__;!!Mih3wA!T4ykSz09XYpBTKK0lBbG9tOEhIvk9NtnXA3rolojK-uUinKeNXYFjhNVFKW2qm4XRpgbzA$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/education__;!!Mih3wA!T4ykSz09XYpBTKK0lBbG9tOEhIvk9NtnXA3rolojK-uUinKeNXYFjhNVFKW2qm6VEE6u6g$ Sign up for office hours here. On Nov 25, 2020, at 09:23, Arturo Cortez > wrote: For real!! Those fools ain?t worth your brilliance. But, real talk: did Anthony Barra say that I misunderstood because of my language and culture? That s**t is racist, if so. You doing alright? I need to figure out how to chill with you one day. Wish we lived closer, but I know we?ll figure it out. Lots of love to you and your family. Thank you for checking in. And let?s take a break from these jerks. I needed to make sure that student didn?t get framed in a messed up way and I assumed there would be blowback. If these fools had any power I?d be concerned. While their insignificance annoys me, it annoys me further that they think anything they say matters beyond their bubble and to that matter: I don?t think it is possible to engage them in any reflection as it is impossible for them to apologize. So check minus to them. Love you!!! Talk soon, Arturo Arturo Cortez, PhD Assistant Professor Teacher Learning, Research & Practice Learning Sciences & Human Development School of Education | UCB 249 | Room 314 University of Colorado Boulder Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Territories 415.261.3155 (mobile) https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cuboulder.zoom.us/my/arturocortez__;!!Mih3wA!T4ykSz09XYpBTKK0lBbG9tOEhIvk9NtnXA3rolojK-uUinKeNXYFjhNVFKW2qm4XRpgbzA$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/education__;!!Mih3wA!T4ykSz09XYpBTKK0lBbG9tOEhIvk9NtnXA3rolojK-uUinKeNXYFjhNVFKW2qm6VEE6u6g$ Sign up for office hours here. On Nov 24, 2020, at 19:34, Anthony Barra > wrote: You should not be upset, Andy, as there was nothing negative in the way you introduced that video. Sometimes, in cross-cultural settings, a phrase or two can translate in unexpected ways. But that's a small price to pay, compared to the much larger benefits of an international community. Happily, everyone is back on the same page now. So keep your head high. Anthony On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 7:11 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: I never intended my message to frame Anna's question as "adversarial." Of course it was genuine! It is also true that many people have been wanting an answer to this question and I meant to applaud Anna for posing the question to Yjro. As it happens Yrjo gave an excellent answer to the question. He both explained how it has led to unfortunate misunderstandings of which he was well aware, and the original, perfectly good meaning that the term has. Obviously I am upset that what I intended as praise for Anna's action has been construed in this way. One lives, one learns. I am sorry. I hope now that xmca-ers who are interested in Yrjo's work will have a look at the video and maybe make a comment on it, and we will all have learnt. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 25/11/2020 4:06 am, ARTURO CORTEZ wrote: Hi, Andy. Thanks for bringing this video to the attention of xmca. As a co-designer and participant in the course, I would frame this differently. Anna asked a genuine question that she (and others) had and was eager to learn more about 4th Gen from an expert, Dr. Engestr?m, who was very responsive. The class was a very generative space and I don?t recall an adversarial or confrontational instance (and I?ve analyzed the videos) during Yrjo?s talk or others. As someone who was there, I thought it was important to share this context. Best, Arturo On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 5:26 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: See the latest video clip on culturalpraxis.net - a young researcher puts Yrjo on the spot with the question everyone has been asking: What's this with the "fourth generation"? Andy Victoria posted: " https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XijCqxkpHLU&feature=youtu.be__;!!Mih3wA!T4ykSz09XYpBTKK0lBbG9tOEhIvk9NtnXA3rolojK-uUinKeNXYFjhNVFKW2qm7CU1wByA$ In this video Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question on the reasons to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical activity theory (CHAT). The piece is" New post on Cultural Praxis [Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.] Why generations? by Victoria [Image removed by sender.] In this video Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question on the reasons to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical activity theory (CHAT). The piece is an excerpt from the seminar "From CHAT to critical CHAT, organized by Professor Kris Gutierrez and Edward Rivero at University of California Berkeley (Spring 2020). The course was attended by roughly 50 scholars from various parts of the US and Europe. Go to our Youtube Library for longer interviews and presentations by distinguished CHAT scholars and educators. Victoria | November 23, 2020 at 6:16 pm | Categories: Video Series: Join the discussion | URL: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/?p=727__;!!Mih3wA!T4ykSz09XYpBTKK0lBbG9tOEhIvk9NtnXA3rolojK-uUinKeNXYFjhNVFKW2qm7KCMn3Ow$ Comment See all comments Unsubscribe to no longer receive posts from Cultural Praxis. Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions. Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/23/why-generations/__;!!Mih3wA!T4ykSz09XYpBTKK0lBbG9tOEhIvk9NtnXA3rolojK-uUinKeNXYFjhNVFKW2qm6_NL51SA$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201125/386aecdc/attachment.html From darya@education.ucsb.edu Wed Nov 25 13:49:23 2020 From: darya@education.ucsb.edu (Diana Arya) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 13:49:23 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> Message-ID: Hello All, I share similar feelings expressed by Maxine and Antti. I have often wondered how many of us are members of this listserv, acknowledging that a small yet consistent number of us consistently contribute to discussions. I too have observed what I would characterize as heated philosophical discussions that seem exclusive with no real entry point for inviting other voices into the discussion. Like Maxine, I stayed with this listserv based on my interests in CHAT and related theories, but I think that there is an opportunity to broaden the kinds of interactions that could happen on this listserv. Thank you, Alfredo, for your acknowledgement and for your support in fostering a safer space within this listserv. To build on Maxine's analysis of this most recent thread, I would like to share a memoir that I'm currently reading--"I'm Still Here" by Austin Channing Brown. Austin describes leading a program in Chicago designed to help attendees unpack racial biases, and some groups fare better than others in confronting their own racialized assumptions. Austin describes how more effort is made to quell the anguish, guilt, or general discomfort of attendees (who are predominantly white) than focusing on those who are disenfranchised due to race, gender, linguistic differences, or the combination of such. Some of the awful experiences described in this book involves the incredulity and disdain expressed when attendees realize that Austin is a Black woman in charge of the entire organization. The author describes with great detail the burden of having to deal with a well-intentioned, generally amiable white person who feels the need to unload the guilt and sorrow from realizing one's racial bias, leaving Black experiences and voices unexplored. I hope that others in our group are willing to share what questions, topics, and experiences we could discuss on this listserv. This could be an exciting new chapter that brings in different voices from which we all can benefit. Best, Diana On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 1:45 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > > Thank you so much, Maxine, for your graceful contribution. I think that > your turn (turn 10 in your analysis of the re-opening) does something else > than taking ?up Arturo?s (and Antti?s) bid for public discussion, > highlight[ing] marginalization on listserv?, which it does too. I think > it does bring a scientific approach as a means to mediate the discussion, > in the best possible sense I know of the word scientific: as a means to > bring forth a better, mor just us. > > > > As someone who has in the past been condescending, patronizing, and > otherwise have othered others in this listserv, without it having ever been > my intention, I think a most important value in the scientific > (sociocultural) approach that you have offered in your post/turn, Maxine, > is that it allows us to understand the issues from a perspective that does > not reduce the problem to (individual, personal) intentions, but looks at > the concrete history of our listserv. It asks us to inquire into what sort > of culture we have here in which these phenomena and ways of experiencing > happen. I am sure no one here had the intention to hurt anyone, so the > attempt to understand what sort of social context we are at and which these > ways of hearing and responding to take place, is much more promising to > bring good for all than an approach that looks for and reacts to > (assumed/presumed) individuals? intentions. We may not yet understand how > to generate a more inclusive space in this list serve, but the truth that > people (and not anyone but mostly people of color, women, femme-identified > people, junior scholars) feel marginalized or threatened in this listserv, > that people feel that way and respond accordingly even when no one intended > this to be so, is no less true because we (anyone) did not intend it to be > this way. It is a truth that, as CHAT scholars, we cannot ignore or deny, > and I am in many ways glad that we have this opportunity here to explore > what the issues are and how our shared interest in CHAT may help us bring > us forward. > > > > As someone who has in the past unintendedly brought forth > reactions/responses that were not easy to deal with in this list, and as > someone who certainly others may have had a hard time to deal with, I want > to thank everyone who has so far spoken in this thread, Beth, Antti, Andy, > Anthony, Arturo, and anyone else who I may have missed to mention, for > taking the courage it takes to bring this conversation forward. Thank you. > I just hope to be able to contribute to generating a space/context in which > everyone with the noble intention of participating in scholarly dialogue > finds no threat and feels welcome to contribute. > > > > Alfredo > > > > *From: * on behalf of Maxine McKinney de > Royston > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Wednesday, 25 November 2020 at 21:36 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? > > > > Thank you, Beth, for generously recognizing that we?ve all made the > mistake before of having something that was private become unintentionally > public. I wish we would have heeded your call to not respond to the > private elements of that email. I don?t see the collective utility of personalizing > its contents. If anyone feels a specific way about that, Arturo has opened > himself up to people contacting him directly. > > > > Thanks, Antti, for noting that this current situation reflects a pattern > of marginalization on this listserv rather than an exceptional incident. I > want to take up Arturo?s invitation for further discussion with the hope > that our discussions of this incident ?will open up new ways for having > dialogue in this space? (from Arturo?s email) > > > > I?d like to invite us to discuss the toxicity and marginalization that > Arturo points to on this listserv. As a Black woman based in the United > States, I have stayed on this listserv over the years because of my > interests in CHAT and sociocultural theories of teaching and learning. > However, I rarely post on it because I often find the tone of the > interlocuters here to be condescending, patronizing, and othering. For me, > this is a sad irony....that the principles of CHAT that many of us study > and advance in our scholarly endeavors is not carried through in our > interpersonal exchanges on this listserv. The recent exchange around the > video offers a great opportunity to explore these issues. > > > > As analysts, I offer up a quick and dirty artifact through which to > mediate our discussion. This is not a full analysis nor are the terms > within it perfect; this is what I have constructed in the last 10 minutes. > It is also not meant to critique people, rather to surface my > interpretation of the interactional exchange and invite your wonderings and > noticings. > > > > Initial interaction: > > 1. Andy?frames video > 2. Arturo?reframes video and the course. Attends to the multiple > cultural meanings ?putting someone on the spot? might have, with one being > implying an adversarial interaction > 3. Antti?legitimizes Arturo?s reframing of video and course > 4. Monica?legitimizes Arturo?s reframing of video > 5. Jos??offers appreciation for Arturo?s reframing of video and course > 6. Andy?apologizes for his framing of the video, clarifies his intent, > expresses he is ?upset,? bids for listserv to return to the video > > > > Summary: Interaction was initiated (Andy), repaired (multiple people), > repair was accepted (Andy). This could have ended here with the accepting > of the repair by Andy. > > > > Re-opening of the interaction: > > 1. Anthony?rejects Andy?s bid to return to the video, delegitimizes > Arturo?s reframing of the video, legitimizes Andy?s framing of the video, > cites cross-cultural meanings, soothes and affirms Andy, bid > 2. Beth?rejects Anthony?s cross-cultural framing, re-legitimizes > Arturo?s reframing, bids for understanding silencing and harm, legitimizes > Andy and Arturo?s contributions, bids for multiple understandings rather > than a unified shared understanding > 3. Arturo?expresses publicly private concerns about silencing, racism, > and power dynamics on and off the listserv > 4. Beth?bids for understanding and to disregard Arturo?s latest turn > 5. Chuck?expresses interest in the video, does not mention prior > conflict, possibly makes a bid for a new exchange? > 6. Arturo?apologizes for public comments, clarifies their private > nature, modifies Beth?s bid for disregarding the email and instead invites > public discussions of marginalization and private discussions about private > concerns/feelings > 7. Anthony?rejects Beth?s bid to disregard, rejects Arturo?s bid for > private discussion about private concerns/feelings, highlights personal > attacks, protects and affirms Andy > 8. Chuck?confirms their lack of a bid for a new exchange > 9. Antti?legitimizes Arturo?s bid for public discussions of > marginalization > 10. Maxine?takes up Arturo?s (and Antti?s) bid for public discussion, > highlights marginalization on listserv > > > > For me, the interactional moves happening here should give us pause. > After some back and forth emails that legitimize Arturo?s reframing about > the context and the nature of the video and the exchange, Andy apologies, > clarifies his intent, and makes a bid to move on. That bid wasn?t taken > up. Instead, something interesting happens, a bid is made to legitimize > and soothe Andy?s feelings about how his framing was understood. This is > interesting to me. I wonder why this was necessary and why the > delegitimizing of Arturo?s reframing had to be part of it. > > > > What do other?s wonder and notice about these interactions? > > > > Best, > > > > Maxine (first name) McKinney de Royston (last name) > > Assistant Professor, Curriculum & Instruction > > University of Wisconsin- Madison > > @profm_de_r > > Office hour scheduling: calendly.com/mckinneyderoyston > > > > > Co-editor of *The Handbook of the Cultural Foundations of Learning > * > (Routledge) > > > > > > *From: * on behalf of "ajrajala@gmail.com" > > *Reply-To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Wednesday, November 25, 2020 at 1:17 PM > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? > > > > Dear all, > > > > Anthony - I think there is not a permission to share the full video, as > the clip was taken from the course material. > > > > I think it is important to see beyond this one conflict to a pattern in > which many people feel marginalized from the conversation. Like Arturo, I > also know a large number of people who opt out from participating in xmca > because they feel that the way of communicating is hostile and exclusive. > Certainly, there is no easy way to address and handle these contradictions > in a constructive manner but these issues do deserve a discussion, I > believe. > > > > Best wishes, Antti > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 at 20:36, Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Thank you for your clarification, Arturo. > > > > I completely agree that the discussion henceforth should focus on the > video at hand! > > > > If I may, however: > > Andy wrote the following, and yet was called a jerk, insignificant, > powerless, etc: "I never intended my message to frame Anna's question as > "adversarial." Of course it was genuine! It is also true that many people > have been wanting an answer to this question and I meant to applaud Anna > for posing the question to Yjro. As it happens Yrjo gave an excellent > answer to the question. He both explained how it has led to unfortunate > misunderstandings of which he was well aware, and the original, perfectly > good meaning that the term has. Obviously I am upset that what I intended > as praise for Anna's action has been construed in this way. One lives, one > learns. I am sorry. I hope now that xmca-ers who are interested in Yrjo's > work will have a look at the video and maybe make a comment on it, and we > will all have learnt." > > Myself, on the other hand? Read my remarks as uncharitably as you'd like, > if that's your preference, although that was certainly not my intent -- and > you can slander me too if that feels good, publicly or privately, though I > don't see why. > > But the insults toward Andy, who gives often and freely and who was simply > sharing an interesting video discussion, were inaccurate and unnecessary. > > Happy Thanksgiving, and happy quarantining to those of us locked down > during the holidays. ? > > Anthony > > P.S. On a better note, I believe Monica Lemos has the full video that > Charles asked about today. Perhaps she can share it with any interested > parties. Thank you. > > > > On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 1:04 PM Arturo Cortez > wrote: > > Hi, all. > > > > My apologies for sending out what was intended as a private message. One > of the things that may not be known is that many people of color and > femme-identified people in this group have off channel discussions about > the participation in this space. I cannot speak for all, but there is a > concern that xmca is hostile and toxic to us. What you saw was an extension > of that conversation. Specifically, it was a message from another colleague > asking how to provide support on this specific conversation. My message > was a full unfiltered expression of my frustration with how I, as a person > of color and junior scholar, feel marginalized in this space. > > > > I?d like to invite any discussion from you all about this. But, in all > honesty I?d like us to focus back on the discussion between Anna and Dr. > Engestr?m. Should others want to weigh in or speak with me personally feel > free to private message me. > > > > Again, my deepest apologies. I hope this conversation will open up new > ways for having dialogue in this space. In addition, I hope my inadvertent > private message will highlight how some of us feel and have expressed in > prior messages on this listserv. While brutally honest, this was an honest > mistake; a colleague reminded me. > > > > With regards, > > Arturo > > > > *Arturo Cortez, PhD* > > Assistant Professor > > Teacher Learning, Research & Practice > > > Learning Sciences & Human Development > > > School of Education | UCB 249 | Room 314 > > University of Colorado Boulder > > Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Territories > > 415.261.3155 (mobile) > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cuboulder.zoom.us/my/arturocortez__;!!Mih3wA!WVxab0Oba4__CQo_mtOt-6Oo7V5QKAZv_PAe3Ov_ru1DVCAwBIuD19x5YApZzJlmzQxaeg$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/education__;!!Mih3wA!WVxab0Oba4__CQo_mtOt-6Oo7V5QKAZv_PAe3Ov_ru1DVCAwBIuD19x5YApZzJlc8y4jdw$ > > > > Sign up for office hours here > > . > > > On Nov 25, 2020, at 09:23, Arturo Cortez wrote: > > For real!! Those fools ain?t worth your brilliance. But, real talk: did > Anthony Barra say that I misunderstood because of my language and culture? > That s**t is racist, if so. > > > > You doing alright? I need to figure out how to chill with you one day. > Wish we lived closer, but I know we?ll figure it out. > > > > Lots of love to you and your family. Thank you for checking in. And let?s > take a break from these jerks. I needed to make sure that student didn?t > get framed in a messed up way and I assumed there would be blowback. If > these fools had any power I?d be concerned. While their insignificance > annoys me, it annoys me further that they think anything they say matters > beyond their bubble and to that matter: I don?t think it is possible to > engage them in any reflection as it is impossible for them to apologize. So > check minus to them. > > > > Love you!!! > > > > Talk soon, > > Arturo > > *Arturo Cortez, PhD* > > Assistant Professor > > Teacher Learning, Research & Practice > > > Learning Sciences & Human Development > > > School of Education | UCB 249 | Room 314 > > University of Colorado Boulder > > Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Territories > > 415.261.3155 (mobile) > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cuboulder.zoom.us/my/arturocortez__;!!Mih3wA!WVxab0Oba4__CQo_mtOt-6Oo7V5QKAZv_PAe3Ov_ru1DVCAwBIuD19x5YApZzJlmzQxaeg$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/education__;!!Mih3wA!WVxab0Oba4__CQo_mtOt-6Oo7V5QKAZv_PAe3Ov_ru1DVCAwBIuD19x5YApZzJlc8y4jdw$ > > > > Sign up for office hours here > > . > > > On Nov 24, 2020, at 19:34, Anthony Barra wrote: > > You should not be upset, Andy, as there was nothing negative in the way > you introduced that video. > > > > Sometimes, in cross-cultural settings, a phrase or two can translate in > unexpected ways. But that's a small price to pay, compared to the much > larger benefits of an international community. > > > > Happily, everyone is back on the same page now. So keep your head high. > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 7:11 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > I never intended my message to frame Anna's question as "adversarial." Of > course it was genuine! It is also true that many people have been wanting > an answer to this question and I meant to applaud Anna for posing the > question to Yjro. As it happens Yrjo gave an excellent answer to the > question. He both explained how it has led to unfortunate misunderstandings > of which he was well aware, and the original, perfectly good meaning that > the term has. > > Obviously I am upset that what I intended as praise for Anna's action has > been construed in this way. One lives, one learns. I am sorry. I hope now > that xmca-ers who are interested in Yrjo's work will have a look at the > video and maybe make a comment on it, and we will all have learnt. > > andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 25/11/2020 4:06 am, ARTURO CORTEZ wrote: > > Hi, Andy. > > Thanks for bringing this video to the attention of xmca. As a co-designer > and participant in the course, I would frame this differently. Anna asked a > genuine question that she (and others) had and was eager to learn more > about 4th Gen from an expert, Dr. Engestr?m, who was very responsive. The > class was a very generative space and I don?t recall an adversarial or > confrontational instance (and I?ve analyzed the videos) during Yrjo?s talk > or others. As someone who was there, I thought it was important to share > this context. > > > Best, > Arturo > > > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 5:26 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > See the latest video clip on culturalpraxis.net > > - a young researcher puts Yrjo on the spot with the question everyone has > been asking: What's this with the "fourth generation"? > > Andy > > > Victoria posted: " > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XijCqxkpHLU&feature=youtu.be__;!!Mih3wA!WVxab0Oba4__CQo_mtOt-6Oo7V5QKAZv_PAe3Ov_ru1DVCAwBIuD19x5YApZzJkU5B9YUw$ In this video > Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question on the reasons > to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical activity theory > (CHAT). The piece is" > > > > New post on *Cultural Praxis* > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > Why generations? > > > by Victoria > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > > In this video Professor Yrj? Engestr?m responds to Anna Zarkh's question > on the reasons to use the term generations to approach cultural-historical > activity theory (CHAT). The piece is an excerpt from the seminar "From CHAT > to critical CHAT, organized by Professor Kris Gutierrez and Edward Rivero > at University of California Berkeley (Spring 2020). The course was attended > by roughly 50 scholars from various parts of the US and Europe. > > Go to our Youtube Library > for > longer interviews and presentations by distinguished CHAT scholars and > educators. > > *Victoria > * > | November 23, 2020 at 6:16 pm | Categories: Video Series: Join the > discussion > > | URL: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/?p=727__;!!Mih3wA!WVxab0Oba4__CQo_mtOt-6Oo7V5QKAZv_PAe3Ov_ru1DVCAwBIuD19x5YApZzJmj0vyr1A$ > > > Comment > > > See all comments > > > > > Unsubscribe > > to no longer receive posts from Cultural Praxis. > Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions > . > > > *Trouble clicking?* Copy and paste this URL into your browser: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/23/why-generations/__;!!Mih3wA!WVxab0Oba4__CQo_mtOt-6Oo7V5QKAZv_PAe3Ov_ru1DVCAwBIuD19x5YApZzJkODQpRtA$ > > > > > [image: Image removed by sender.][image: Image removed by sender.] > > -- *Nothing can be changed until it is faced. *(James Baldwin) Diana J. Arya, PhD she/her/hers/they/them/theirs Associate Professor and Graduate Diversity Officer, Education Faculty Director, McEnroe Reading and Language Arts Clinic Gevirtz Graduate School of Education University of California, Santa Barbara https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.cbleducation.org__;!!Mih3wA!WVxab0Oba4__CQo_mtOt-6Oo7V5QKAZv_PAe3Ov_ru1DVCAwBIuD19x5YApZzJkan6jDbA$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201125/165690d0/attachment.html From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Fri Nov 27 09:39:02 2020 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 17:39:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no>, Message-ID: dear Everyone: thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that individually referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, i'm reminded that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, that i've noticed. only this time, the response is different in both quality and quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - which in my mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a newer and younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use of our shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on the spot - elicits the synonyms: embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - wither - show up. if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words of praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have wondered about that evolution." i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they do does." in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in social gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a person of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of their own comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of both white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. and one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that those who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points of view that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this should not be placed on those already socially marginalized. i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get their master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly complex topic. and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it was illuminating. phillip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201127/2f0e4aed/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Nov 27 11:09:36 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 11:09:36 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> Message-ID: Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. I, too, have been thinking about the long history of xmca's inability to create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would conduct pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen the correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a discourse practice that discourages participation from those who are intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of recommendation for a scarce job. So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone else. The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought us the presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky and the tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are adept in, and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing educational practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a manner that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of desired pedagogical outcomes. Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did not spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and designs of its creators. At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, written in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of xlchc, its transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca authors received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely because of the issues being raised here for the past week). http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when LCHC tried to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other on a working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. A lot of smart, experienced, people tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, as we are witnessing. Time for the next generation to join the discussion. Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much. thanks for reading this far if you have! stay safe. take care mike ? I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who lament, xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind bias On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip wrote: > dear Everyone: > > thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that individually > referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, i'm reminded > that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, that i've > noticed. only this time, the response is different in both quality and > quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - which in my > mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a newer and > younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use of our > shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. > > as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on the > spot - elicits the synonyms: > embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - wither > - show up. > > if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words of > praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have wondered > about that evolution." > > i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they know > why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they do > does." > > in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in social > gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a person > of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of their own > comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. > > from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of both > white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. and > one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that those > who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points of view > that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this should > not be placed on those already socially marginalized. > > i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get their > master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith > Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography > as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which > Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back > from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts > with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read > the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this > was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students > were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community > they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. > > i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly complex topic. > > and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it was > illuminating. > > phillip > -- I[image: Angelus Novus] The Angel's View of History The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside. So organisms create the conditions of their own future which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!S7fCXtTCVQWkCXnNSwdyFfFitd3dB8EuTUKFK0sSSJdSy8_M6BJohNdCkFQYltd1dis3rA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201127/31b67b30/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Fri Nov 27 12:32:00 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 15:32:00 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> Message-ID: Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what he or she wishes and then click the Send button? This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is confusing to me. Maybe this is something only someone on the left can understand? If people want to post a comment, question, remark, new topic, etc, they should just do it. Who cares if it's not automatically received with open arms or agreement? Isn't that half the fun? Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing in academia? Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching that level come with the freedom to speak openly? As one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really counterproductive to me. Naively (I suppose), Anthony On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole wrote: > Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. > I, too, have been thinking about the long history of xmca's inability to > create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn > the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would conduct > pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion > for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen the > correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know > with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to > enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a > discourse practice that discourages participation from those who are > intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some > senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of recommendation for > a scarce job. > > So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone else. > The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, > covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought us the > presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky and the > tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are adept in, > and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing educational > practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a manner > that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of desired > pedagogical outcomes. > > Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did not > spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and > before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and designs of > its creators. > > At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, written > in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of xlchc, its > transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca authors > received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely because of > the issues being raised here for the past week). > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf > > There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when LCHC tried > to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep > former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other on a > working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional > that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. A lot of > smart, experienced, people tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, as we are > witnessing. > Time for the next generation to join the discussion. > > Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much. > > thanks for reading this far if you have! > stay safe. take care > mike ? > > > > > > I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who lament, > xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind > bias > > > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip > wrote: > >> dear Everyone: >> >> thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that individually >> referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, i'm reminded >> that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, that i've >> noticed. only this time, the response is different in both quality and >> quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - which in my >> mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a newer and >> younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use of our >> shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. >> >> as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on the >> spot - elicits the synonyms: >> embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - wither >> - show up. >> >> if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words of >> praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have wondered >> about that evolution." >> >> i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they know >> why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they do >> does." >> >> in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in social >> gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a person >> of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of their own >> comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. >> >> from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of both >> white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. and >> one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that those >> who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points of view >> that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this should >> not be placed on those already socially marginalized. >> >> i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get their >> master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith >> Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography >> as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which >> Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back >> from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts >> with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read >> the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this >> was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students >> were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community >> they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. >> >> i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly complex >> topic. >> >> and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it was >> illuminating. >> >> phillip >> > > > -- > > I[image: Angelus Novus] > The > Angel's View of History > > The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside. So > organisms create the conditions of their own future > which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin > > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UpO9BNs6f6ikgHXUNLw0wXqw2XJ9oV6S5L6DRNfSgZH7M_gYJ2zUuJPbZqpCcy_usGYmrA$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201127/0287bfb4/attachment.html From zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com Fri Nov 27 12:51:35 2020 From: zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com (Zaza Kabayadondo) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 12:51:35 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> Message-ID: I follow a lot of the discussions on xmca but rarely post. Despite many very warm invitations from Mike and others, I have only posted on this forum 3 times since joining in 2014. I read about 80% of the threads. So to the question, "isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type..." here's are my thoughts: I'm a millennial so I have been observing online discussion forum blowouts since I was about 16. People who look like me (black, female, immigrant) get trolled online all the time. I'm not saying xmca has trolls but I've become conditioned to worry about the risks of posting in any online forum. As a general rule it is safer not to get sucked in - to watch but not to get blood on my hands. I am only an active poster in groups where I trust the members and feel safe in, even when I don't know all the members. So what I asked myself what is it about xmca that makes me feel like I have to be super careful about what I post? What makes this group feel "unsafe" or "toxic". In other words, what makes it feel *risky* to post something on xmca? Below I've listed the 5 risks that I worry about. There are more, certainly, but I picked just the first few to start and paired them with some design questions I think we should be asking about how to design the community we want here. 1. "What is the context for this post? I think I get it but are we talking about the same thing?" *The design question we can ask ourselves**:* What can we do to provide better context, in a way that invites more members to add to an original post? 2. "I'm only marginally familiar with this topic, I'm curious but I won't ask questions but I don't have the energy to be "schooled" on this today." *The design questions we can ask ourselves:* How can we be argumentative, informative, without being toxic? What is the best way to engage novices and experts in this topic? 3. "Who else is out there, reading this? I don't know who I'm talking to except the 5 or so active members" *The design question we can ask ourselves:* What can we do as a community to learn more about each other, our work, and our domains of focus or ways of applying CHAT. 4. "If I post this will it turn into a long and laborious (unpleasant) email exchange? Am I ready for a fight in this space?" *The design question we can ask ourselves:* How do we bring critique without criticism? How do we sustain conversation without putting the burden on only the original poster? 5. "Dude, I don't read or speak Russian so I have nothing to say about the translation from the original." *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we get around the challenges of casual and virtual engagement; and the challenge of not knowing who this community is or if what I (each of us) can contribute will be valuable to the community. So this is why, for me, it's not so straightforward to say anyone can post. I'd love to see what other "risks" people have perceived. I'd also love to be part of doing something about addressing them, because I do think this forum has the potential to be an incredible community for more than just a handful of members. On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 12:35 PM Anthony Barra wrote: > Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what he or she wishes and > then click the Send button? > > This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is confusing to me. > > Maybe this is something only someone on the left can understand? > > If people want to post a comment, question, remark, new topic, etc, they > should just do it. Who cares if it's not automatically received with open > arms or agreement? Isn't that half the fun? > > Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing in academia? > Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching that level come with the freedom > to speak openly? As one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these > pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really counterproductive to me. > > Naively (I suppose), > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole wrote: > >> Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. >> I, too, have been thinking about the long history of xmca's inability to >> create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn >> the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would conduct >> pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion >> for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen the >> correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know >> with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to >> enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a >> discourse practice that discourages participation from those who are >> intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some >> senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of recommendation >> for a scarce job. >> >> So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone else. >> The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, >> covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought us the >> presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky and the >> tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are adept in, >> and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing educational >> practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a manner >> that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of desired >> pedagogical outcomes. >> >> Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did not >> spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and >> before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and designs of >> its creators. >> >> At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, written >> in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of xlchc, its >> transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca authors >> received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely because of >> the issues being raised here for the past week). >> >> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf >> >> There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when LCHC >> tried to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep >> former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other on a >> working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional >> that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. A lot >> of smart, experienced, people tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, as we >> are witnessing. >> Time for the next generation to join the discussion. >> >> Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much. >> >> thanks for reading this far if you have! >> stay safe. take care >> mike ? >> >> >> >> >> >> I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who lament, >> xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind >> bias >> >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip < >> Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: >> >>> dear Everyone: >>> >>> thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that individually >>> referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, i'm reminded >>> that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, that i've >>> noticed. only this time, the response is different in both quality and >>> quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - which in my >>> mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a newer and >>> younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use of our >>> shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. >>> >>> as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on the >>> spot - elicits the synonyms: >>> embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - >>> wither - show up. >>> >>> if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words of >>> praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have wondered >>> about that evolution." >>> >>> i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they know >>> why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they do >>> does." >>> >>> in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in social >>> gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a person >>> of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of their own >>> comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. >>> >>> from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of both >>> white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. and >>> one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that those >>> who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points of view >>> that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this should >>> not be placed on those already socially marginalized. >>> >>> i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get their >>> master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith >>> Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography >>> as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which >>> Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back >>> from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts >>> with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read >>> the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this >>> was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students >>> were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community >>> they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. >>> >>> i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly complex >>> topic. >>> >>> and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it was >>> illuminating. >>> >>> phillip >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> I[image: Angelus Novus] >> The >> Angel's View of History >> >> The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside. So >> organisms create the conditions of their own future >> which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin >> >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XqyD32PqUjrECjiznbMVU0BJd3EV7WR_MpV6AorPmT9jGyRTOd3p228sBZf1TP6XtIwbaw$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> >> >> -- To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!XqyD32PqUjrECjiznbMVU0BJd3EV7WR_MpV6AorPmT9jGyRTOd3p228sBZf1TP7e_DD-Hw$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201127/4cf2dcd1/attachment.html From AStetsenko@gc.cuny.edu Fri Nov 27 12:58:17 2020 From: AStetsenko@gc.cuny.edu (Stetsenko, Anna) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 20:58:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no>, , Message-ID: <1606510696397.82171@gc.cuny.edu> Phillip, you said exactly what needed to be said (and not the first time, I remember an episode from some 15 years ago, when the same pattern was present - including excuses for language such as "a good girl" as just stemming from "misunderstanding" etc...don't know if you remember). That was exactly when Mary Bryson and others left but not without first sending a powerful message. Not much to add - other than that I deeply appreciate Arturo's and Maxine's position and intervention. I can imagine it comes at a personal cost, in feelings and emotions, of having to explain, again and again, what should have been clear to anyone with open eyes by now. There was enough context to see things through for what they are, long before the current episode. I too left xmca some 15 years ago...am writing now only because I was alerted to the latest episode. I will keep from saying more lest I "destroy xmca" (that's what I always tend to do, apparently :-). Anna Anna Stetsenko, PhD Professor Ph.D. Programs in Psychology/Human Development and in Urban Education The Graduate Center of The City University of New York 365 5th Avenue, New York, NY 10016 https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://annastetsenko.ws.gc.cuny.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!U_by8T1hovaUWJsvcCIB-pPYSNFttX3qc0nJq13g54rnM9W7WejTDv5KDjie54gGbFxetA$ visit https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.academia.edu__;!!Mih3wA!U_by8T1hovaUWJsvcCIB-pPYSNFttX3qc0nJq13g54rnM9W7WejTDv5KDjie54i3ICnwxw$ for my recent publications ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of White, Phillip Sent: Friday, November 27, 2020 12:39 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? dear Everyone: thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that individually referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, i'm reminded that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, that i've noticed. only this time, the response is different in both quality and quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - which in my mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a newer and younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use of our shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on the spot - elicits the synonyms: embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - wither - show up. if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words of praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have wondered about that evolution." i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they do does." in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in social gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a person of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of their own comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of both white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. and one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that those who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points of view that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this should not be placed on those already socially marginalized. i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get their master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly complex topic. and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it was illuminating. phillip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201127/4f638efe/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Fri Nov 27 13:03:20 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 16:03:20 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> Message-ID: Great post, Zaza. Thanks. And quite relatable, including the risk/reward part. On Friday, November 27, 2020, Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: > I follow a lot of the discussions on xmca but rarely post. Despite many > very warm invitations from Mike and others, I have only posted on this > forum 3 times since joining in 2014. I read about 80% of the threads. > > So to the question, "isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type..." > here's are my thoughts: > > I'm a millennial so I have been observing online discussion forum blowouts > since I was about 16. People who look like me (black, female, immigrant) > get trolled online all the time. I'm not saying xmca has trolls but I've > become conditioned to worry about the risks of posting in any online forum. > As a general rule it is safer not to get sucked in - to watch but not to > get blood on my hands. I am only an active poster in groups where I trust > the members and feel safe in, even when I don't know all the members. So > what I asked myself what is it about xmca that makes me feel like I have to > be super careful about what I post? What makes this group feel "unsafe" or > "toxic". In other words, what makes it feel *risky* to post something on > xmca? Below I've listed the 5 risks that I worry about. There are more, > certainly, but I picked just the first few to start and paired them with > some design questions I think we should be asking about how to design the > community we want here. > > 1. "What is the context for this post? I think I get it but are we talking > about the same thing?" > *The design question we can ask ourselves**:* What can we do to provide > better context, in a way that invites more members to add to an original > post? > > 2. "I'm only marginally familiar with this topic, I'm curious but I won't > ask questions but I don't have the energy to be "schooled" on this today." *The > design questions we can ask ourselves:* How can we be argumentative, > informative, without being toxic? What is the best way to engage novices > and experts in this topic? > > 3. "Who else is out there, reading this? I don't know who I'm talking to > except the 5 or so active members" > *The design question we can ask ourselves:* What can we do as a community > to learn more about each other, our work, and our domains of focus or ways > of applying CHAT. > > 4. "If I post this will it turn into a long and laborious (unpleasant) > email exchange? Am I ready for a fight in this space?" > *The design question we can ask ourselves:* How do we bring critique > without criticism? How do we sustain conversation without putting the > burden on only the original poster? > > 5. "Dude, I don't read or speak Russian so I have nothing to say about the > translation from the original." > *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we get around the > challenges of casual and virtual engagement; and the challenge of not > knowing who this community is or if what I (each of us) can contribute will > be valuable to the community. > > So this is why, for me, it's not so straightforward to say anyone can > post. I'd love to see what other "risks" people have perceived. I'd also > love to be part of doing something about addressing them, because I do > think this forum has the potential to be an incredible community for more > than just a handful of members. > > > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 12:35 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what he or she wishes and >> then click the Send button? >> >> This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is confusing to me. >> >> Maybe this is something only someone on the left can understand? >> >> If people want to post a comment, question, remark, new topic, etc, they >> should just do it. Who cares if it's not automatically received with open >> arms or agreement? Isn't that half the fun? >> >> Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing in academia? >> Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching that level come with the freedom >> to speak openly? As one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these >> pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really counterproductive to me. >> >> Naively (I suppose), >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole wrote: >> >>> Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. >>> I, too, have been thinking about the long history of xmca's inability to >>> create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn >>> the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would conduct >>> pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion >>> for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen the >>> correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know >>> with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to >>> enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a >>> discourse practice that discourages participation from those who are >>> intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some >>> senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of recommendation >>> for a scarce job. >>> >>> So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone else. >>> The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, >>> covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought us >>> the presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky >>> and the >>> tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are adept in, >>> and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing educational >>> practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a manner >>> that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of desired >>> pedagogical outcomes. >>> >>> Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did not >>> spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and >>> before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and designs of >>> its creators. >>> >>> At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, written >>> in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of xlchc, its >>> transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca authors >>> received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely because of >>> the issues being raised here for the past week). >>> >>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf >>> >>> There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when LCHC >>> tried to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep >>> former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other on a >>> working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional >>> that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. A lot >>> of smart, experienced, people tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, as we >>> are witnessing. >>> Time for the next generation to join the discussion. >>> >>> Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much. >>> >>> thanks for reading this far if you have! >>> stay safe. take care >>> mike ? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who lament, >>> xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind >>> bias >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip < >>> Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: >>> >>>> dear Everyone: >>>> >>>> thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that >>>> individually referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, >>>> i'm reminded that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, >>>> that i've noticed. only this time, the response is different in both >>>> quality and quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - >>>> which in my mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a >>>> newer and younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use >>>> of our shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. >>>> >>>> as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on the >>>> spot - elicits the synonyms: >>>> embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - >>>> wither - show up. >>>> >>>> if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words of >>>> praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have wondered >>>> about that evolution." >>>> >>>> i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they >>>> know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they >>>> do does." >>>> >>>> in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in social >>>> gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a person >>>> of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of their own >>>> comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. >>>> >>>> from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of both >>>> white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. and >>>> one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that those >>>> who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points of view >>>> that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this should >>>> not be placed on those already socially marginalized. >>>> >>>> i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get their >>>> master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith >>>> Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography >>>> as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which >>>> Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back >>>> from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts >>>> with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read >>>> the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this >>>> was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students >>>> were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community >>>> they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. >>>> >>>> i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly complex >>>> topic. >>>> >>>> and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it was >>>> illuminating. >>>> >>>> phillip >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> I[image: Angelus Novus] >>> The >>> Angel's View of History >>> >>> The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside. So >>> organisms create the conditions of their own future >>> which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin >>> >>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UfBIAxztDRfLvu1xAR5iSyDH09yTvqMF8a6f14bDD_2lSVHI-QpBh_7OMpYOwvmRVEn3fA$ >>> >>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>> >>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>> >>> >>> >>> > > -- > To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly__;!!Mih3wA!UfBIAxztDRfLvu1xAR5iSyDH09yTvqMF8a6f14bDD_2lSVHI-QpBh_7OMpYOwvnYjyyshw$ . > com/with-zaza > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201127/827fe36e/attachment.html From dkirsh@lsu.edu Fri Nov 27 14:12:58 2020 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 22:12:58 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations?: Discourse Analysis Message-ID: Three or four years ago, we had a similar discussion about the openness and fairness of XMCA, and I made a suggestion that discourse analysis of the archive be undertaken to try to identify the mechanisms of exclusion. Unfortunately, I inserted my suggestion in an ongoing thread without checking sufficiently for fit with the ongoing conversation ? Zaza?s first risk, below. I was called out for it, and apologized, but still received public castigation for my transgression. Anyway, I hope this time my suggestion for disciplined inquiry into the discourse practices of XMCA might get a hearing. If XMCA is exclusionary, would that be empirically discernable? Alternatively, are the practices of exclusion so pervasive in our culture as to be invisible? David PS. I hope this time my suggestion does fit with the current thread, but in case not, I?ve added a subtopic to the subject line. From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Zaza Kabayadondo Sent: Friday, November 27, 2020 2:52 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? I follow a lot of the discussions on xmca but rarely post. Despite many very warm invitations from Mike and others, I have only posted on this forum 3 times since joining in 2014. I read about 80% of the threads. So to the question, "isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type..." here's are my thoughts: I'm a millennial so I have been observing online discussion forum blowouts since I was about 16. People who look like me (black, female, immigrant) get trolled online all the time. I'm not saying xmca has trolls but I've become conditioned to worry about the risks of posting in any online forum. As a general rule it is safer not to get sucked in - to watch but not to get blood on my hands. I am only an active poster in groups where I trust the members and feel safe in, even when I don't know all the members. So what I asked myself what is it about xmca that makes me feel like I have to be super careful about what I post? What makes this group feel "unsafe" or "toxic". In other words, what makes it feel risky to post something on xmca? Below I've listed the 5 risks that I worry about. There are more, certainly, but I picked just the first few to start and paired them with some design questions I think we should be asking about how to design the community we want here. 1. "What is the context for this post? I think I get it but are we talking about the same thing?" The design question we can ask ourselves: What can we do to provide better context, in a way that invites more members to add to an original post? 2. "I'm only marginally familiar with this topic, I'm curious but I won't ask questions but I don't have the energy to be "schooled" on this today." The design questions we can ask ourselves: How can we be argumentative, informative, without being toxic? What is the best way to engage novices and experts in this topic? 3. "Who else is out there, reading this? I don't know who I'm talking to except the 5 or so active members" The design question we can ask ourselves: What can we do as a community to learn more about each other, our work, and our domains of focus or ways of applying CHAT. 4. "If I post this will it turn into a long and laborious (unpleasant) email exchange? Am I ready for a fight in this space?" The design question we can ask ourselves: How do we bring critique without criticism? How do we sustain conversation without putting the burden on only the original poster? 5. "Dude, I don't read or speak Russian so I have nothing to say about the translation from the original." The design question we can ask ourselves: How do we get around the challenges of casual and virtual engagement; and the challenge of not knowing who this community is or if what I (each of us) can contribute will be valuable to the community. So this is why, for me, it's not so straightforward to say anyone can post. I'd love to see what other "risks" people have perceived. I'd also love to be part of doing something about addressing them, because I do think this forum has the potential to be an incredible community for more than just a handful of members. On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 12:35 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what he or she wishes and then click the Send button? This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is confusing to me. Maybe this is something only someone on the left can understand? If people want to post a comment, question, remark, new topic, etc, they should just do it. Who cares if it's not automatically received with open arms or agreement? Isn't that half the fun? Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing in academia? Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching that level come with the freedom to speak openly? As one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really counterproductive to me. Naively (I suppose), Anthony On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole > wrote: Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. I, too, have been thinking about the long history of xmca's inability to create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would conduct pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen the correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a discourse practice that discourages participation from those who are intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of recommendation for a scarce job. So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone else. The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought us the presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky and the tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are adept in, and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing educational practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a manner that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of desired pedagogical outcomes. Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did not spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and designs of its creators. At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, written in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of xlchc, its transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca authors received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely because of the issues being raised here for the past week). http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when LCHC tried to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other on a working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. A lot of smart, experienced, people tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, as we are witnessing. Time for the next generation to join the discussion. Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much. thanks for reading this far if you have! stay safe. take care mike ? I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who lament, xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind bias On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip > wrote: dear Everyone: thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that individually referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, i'm reminded that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, that i've noticed. only this time, the response is different in both quality and quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - which in my mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a newer and younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use of our shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on the spot - elicits the synonyms: embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - wither - show up. if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words of praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have wondered about that evolution." i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they do does." in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in social gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a person of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of their own comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of both white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. and one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that those who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points of view that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this should not be placed on those already socially marginalized. i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get their master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly complex topic. and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it was illuminating. phillip -- I[Angelus Novus]The Angel's View of History The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside. So organisms create the conditions of their own future which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!T0pLQQNn3ozrcaZLZySQW2HfI5szKb1psKLyPOPlTaDdsj6IIRoHeKVSIpAQ1HsvhXj1rg$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!T0pLQQNn3ozrcaZLZySQW2HfI5szKb1psKLyPOPlTaDdsj6IIRoHeKVSIpAQ1HuKPy1O3A$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201127/96a60fbf/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Fri Nov 27 14:35:59 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 09:35:59 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> Message-ID: <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> Wow! That is a really useful post, Zaza. I have bookmarked it. I think your suggestion to frame xmca in terms of "risk" is very productive. Thank you. andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 28/11/2020 7:51 am, Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: > I follow a lot of the discussions on xmca but rarely post. > Despite many very?warm invitations from Mike and others, I > have only posted on this forum 3 times since joining in > 2014. I read about 80% of the threads. > > So to?the?question, "isn't any adult xmca member allowed > to type..." here's are my thoughts: > > I'm a millennial so I have been observing online > discussion forum blowouts since I was about 16. People who > look like me (black, female, immigrant) get trolled online > all the time. I'm not saying xmca has trolls but I've > become conditioned to worry about the risks of posting in > any online forum. As a general rule it is safer not to get > sucked in - to watch but not to get blood on my hands. I > am only an active poster in groups where I trust > the?members and feel safe in, even when I don't know all > the members. So what I asked myself what is it about xmca > that makes me feel like I have to be super careful about > what I post? What makes this group feel "unsafe" or > "toxic". In?other?words, what makes it feel *risky* to > post something on xmca? Below I've listed the 5 risks that > I worry about. There are more, certainly, but I picked > just the first few to start and paired them with some > design questions I think we should be asking about how to > design the community we want here. > > 1. "What is the context for this post? I think I get it > but are we talking about the same thing?" > /The design question we can ask ourselves/*:* What can we > do to provide better context, in a way that invites more > members to add to an original post? > > 2. "I'm only marginally familiar with this topic, I'm > curious but I won't ask questions but I don't have the > energy to be "schooled" on this today." /The design > questions we can ask ourselves:/ How can we be > argumentative, informative, without being toxic? What is > the best way to engage novices and experts in this topic? > > 3. "Who else is out there, reading this? I don't know who > I'm talking to except the 5 or so active members" > /The design question?we can ask ourselves:/ What can we do > as a community to learn more about each other, our work, > and our domains of focus or ways of applying CHAT. > > 4. "If I post this will it turn into a long and laborious > (unpleasant) email exchange? Am I ready for a fight in > this space?" > /The design question?we can ask ourselves:/?How do we > bring critique without criticism? How do we sustain > conversation without putting the burden on only the > original poster? > > 5. "Dude, I don't read or speak Russian so I have nothing > to say about the translation from the original." > /The design question?we can ask ourselves: /How do we get > around the challenges of casual and virtual engagement; > and the challenge of not knowing who this community is or > if what I (each of us) can contribute will be valuable to > the community. > > So this is why, for me, it's not so straightforward to say > anyone?can post. I'd love to see what other "risks" people > have perceived. I'd also love to be part of doing > something about addressing them,?because I do think this > forum has the potential to be an incredible community for > more than just a handful of members. > > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 12:35 PM Anthony Barra > > > wrote: > > Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what > he or she wishes and then click the Send button? > > This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is > confusing to me. > > Maybe this is something only someone on the left can > understand? > > If people want to post a comment, question, remark, > new topic, etc, they should just do it. Who cares if > it's not automatically received with open arms or > agreement?? Isn't that half the fun? > > Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing > in academia? Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching > that level come with the freedom to speak openly? As > one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these > pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really > counterproductive to me. > > Naively (I suppose), > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole > > wrote: > > Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. > I, too, have been thinking about the long history > of xmca's?inability to create a level and > welcoming playing field. I mourn > the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva > Ekblad would conduct pointed lessons for those > participating in the discussion > for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And > we have seen the correctness of Foucault's > reminder of our inability to know > with any certainty the effects of our speech > actions too often to enumerate. Being "put on the > spot," as you say, is a clear example of a > discourse practice that > discourages?participation?from those who are > intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or > of offending some > senior person who will, one day, be writing a > letter of recommendation for a scarce job. > > So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and > those over everyone else. The crack in American > society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, > covid disruption, television?of police murders, > ...... has brought us the presence of young > scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky > and the > tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also > scholars who are adept in, and leaders in, the use > of digital media for reorganizing educational > practices at both the colleague and elementary > school levels in a manner that does not put > learners on the spot but affords a variety of desired > pedagogical outcomes. > > Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that > this problem did not spring out of the ether, but > is baked into the way that xmca and > before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit > wishes and designs of its creators. > > At the following link in the lchcautobio?you will > find a report, written in 1992 by two former > post-docs?at lchc about the beginnings of xlchc, its > transformation into xmca as a way amplify the > feedback that xmca authors received (this only > worked well a couple of times, precisely because of > the issues being raised here for the past week). > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf > > There you will see all of the problems that we > encountered when LCHC tried to expand beyond the > face to face practices in order to keep > former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch > with each other on a working basis as a way to > work around the discriminatory institutional > that restricted our ability to maintain an > integrated collective. A lot of smart, > experienced, people?tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It > failed, as we are witnessing. > Time for the next generation to join the discussion. > > Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, > probably too much. > > thanks for reading this far if you have! > stay safe. take care > mike??? > > > > > > I, personally, have been lectured regularly by > colleagues who lament, xmca's?failure to overcome > its white male, gender-blind > bias > > > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip > > wrote: > > dear Everyone: > > thinking over all of the posts as an > aggregate, rather that individually > referencing them, regarding marginalization of > xmca members, i'm reminded that this has been > a topic over the last twenty-five years, that > i've noticed.? only this time, the response is > different in both quality and quantity, as > well as introducing shared tools of analysis - > which in my mind i believe is in part due to > BLM activism, and certainly a newer and > younger generation of colleagues here on xmca > with a mindful use of our shared professional > ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. > > as any native english speaker knows, the term > - to put someone on the spot - elicits the > synonyms: > embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease > - degrade - crush - wither - show up. > > if the intention was to praise the student, > why then weren't words of praise - for > example: "Thank you for that question.? I > myself have wondered about that evolution." > > i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what > they do; frequently they know why they do what > they do; but what they don't know is what what > they do does." > > in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the > narrator notes that in social gatherings when > a white person makes a casually racist comment > to a person of color, the whites remain > silent, preferring not to move out of their > own comfort level.? really, nothing was lost > in translation. > > from my perspective, there is too much > protection here on xmca of both white > fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative > male fragility.? and one way to work around > this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that > those who self-identify as CIS white male > could begin to point out points of view that > support white hetero-normative supremacy.? the > burden for this should not be placed on those > already socially marginalized. > > i'm reminded that in a class i taught for > those working to get their master's degree in > education, that when i would assign Bryant > Keith Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the > Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography as > a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and > Scholarly Production" - in which Alexander > used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i > would get blow-back from some students > complaining that since they had no personal > contacts with gay men, much-less gay men in > drag, that they should not have to read the > ethnography.? my response was that since they > had no experience, this was a good way to > start since they had no knowledge of who their > students were, or their parents.? Yet within > their classroom, or school community they > worked in, there very well could be these life > experiences. > > i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is > such a richly complex topic. > > and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently > public response - it was illuminating. > > ?phillip > > > > -- > > > IAngelus Novus > The > Angel's View of History > >> The organism, by its life activities, creates >> what is outside.? So organisms create the >> conditions of their own future >> which is different?from their past" Richard >> Lewontin > > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!SBkmBkhWhBnjWkghRbECZoK90gYyR9xX7PrktzIstGwEZ2sa4rY9UyfIoQi8rpXGxcxjrg$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu > . > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > . > > > > > > -- > To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!SBkmBkhWhBnjWkghRbECZoK90gYyR9xX7PrktzIstGwEZ2sa4rY9UyfIoQi8rpUJ0z02vA$ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/9875f7a5/attachment.html From bferholt@gmail.com Fri Nov 27 15:10:12 2020 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 18:10:12 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> Message-ID: Zara invited other risks -- Thank you for asking us all! -- I would like to add: 6. "If I say something and there is only silence ... and then I say something else and there is only silence, again ... how will I remember that this is Not just the evidence I need to prove that I should have remained in another profession, where people understood me when I spoke?" *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we sustain our collective work to help all members to hold at bay the pernicious deficit model, never thinking that this is a battle we each must fight in private and alone, or with a few select supporters? How do we help all of us to remember that this fight takes active and ongoing as well as collective work, and that for each success story against the odds we have lost 100's of voices -- and often the voices of those with the most valuable (as they are rare in the field) perspectives for the field? Can we each be supported as long as necessary as we "learn to ride this particular kind of bike" (or adjust the bike so that we can ride it), providing only that we have the desire to try? #7. ?? Beth On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 5:37 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > Wow! That is a really useful post, Zaza. I have bookmarked it. > > I think your suggestion to frame xmca in terms of "risk" is very > productive. > Thank you. > > andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 28/11/2020 7:51 am, Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: > > I follow a lot of the discussions on xmca but rarely post. Despite many > very warm invitations from Mike and others, I have only posted on this > forum 3 times since joining in 2014. I read about 80% of the threads. > > So to the question, "isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type..." > here's are my thoughts: > > I'm a millennial so I have been observing online discussion forum blowouts > since I was about 16. People who look like me (black, female, immigrant) > get trolled online all the time. I'm not saying xmca has trolls but I've > become conditioned to worry about the risks of posting in any online forum. > As a general rule it is safer not to get sucked in - to watch but not to > get blood on my hands. I am only an active poster in groups where I trust > the members and feel safe in, even when I don't know all the members. So > what I asked myself what is it about xmca that makes me feel like I have to > be super careful about what I post? What makes this group feel "unsafe" or > "toxic". In other words, what makes it feel *risky* to post something on > xmca? Below I've listed the 5 risks that I worry about. There are more, > certainly, but I picked just the first few to start and paired them with > some design questions I think we should be asking about how to design the > community we want here. > > 1. "What is the context for this post? I think I get it but are we talking > about the same thing?" > *The design question we can ask ourselves**:* What can we do to provide > better context, in a way that invites more members to add to an original > post? > > 2. "I'm only marginally familiar with this topic, I'm curious but I won't > ask questions but I don't have the energy to be "schooled" on this today." *The > design questions we can ask ourselves:* How can we be argumentative, > informative, without being toxic? What is the best way to engage novices > and experts in this topic? > > 3. "Who else is out there, reading this? I don't know who I'm talking to > except the 5 or so active members" > *The design question we can ask ourselves:* What can we do as a community > to learn more about each other, our work, and our domains of focus or ways > of applying CHAT. > > 4. "If I post this will it turn into a long and laborious (unpleasant) > email exchange? Am I ready for a fight in this space?" > *The design question we can ask ourselves:* How do we bring critique > without criticism? How do we sustain conversation without putting the > burden on only the original poster? > > 5. "Dude, I don't read or speak Russian so I have nothing to say about the > translation from the original." > *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we get around the > challenges of casual and virtual engagement; and the challenge of not > knowing who this community is or if what I (each of us) can contribute will > be valuable to the community. > > So this is why, for me, it's not so straightforward to say anyone can > post. I'd love to see what other "risks" people have perceived. I'd also > love to be part of doing something about addressing them, because I do > think this forum has the potential to be an incredible community for more > than just a handful of members. > > > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 12:35 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what he or she wishes and >> then click the Send button? >> >> This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is confusing to me. >> >> Maybe this is something only someone on the left can understand? >> >> If people want to post a comment, question, remark, new topic, etc, they >> should just do it. Who cares if it's not automatically received with open >> arms or agreement? Isn't that half the fun? >> >> Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing in academia? >> Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching that level come with the freedom >> to speak openly? As one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these >> pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really counterproductive to me. >> >> Naively (I suppose), >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole wrote: >> >>> Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. >>> I, too, have been thinking about the long history of xmca's inability to >>> create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn >>> the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would conduct >>> pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion >>> for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen the >>> correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know >>> with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to >>> enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a >>> discourse practice that discourages participation from those who are >>> intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some >>> senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of recommendation >>> for a scarce job. >>> >>> So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone else. >>> The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, >>> covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought us >>> the presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky >>> and the >>> tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are adept in, >>> and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing educational >>> practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a manner >>> that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of desired >>> pedagogical outcomes. >>> >>> Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did not >>> spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and >>> before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and designs of >>> its creators. >>> >>> At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, written >>> in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of xlchc, its >>> transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca authors >>> received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely because of >>> the issues being raised here for the past week). >>> >>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf >>> >>> There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when LCHC >>> tried to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep >>> former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other on a >>> working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional >>> that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. A lot >>> of smart, experienced, people tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, as we >>> are witnessing. >>> Time for the next generation to join the discussion. >>> >>> Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much. >>> >>> thanks for reading this far if you have! >>> stay safe. take care >>> mike ? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who lament, >>> xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind >>> bias >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip < >>> Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: >>> >>>> dear Everyone: >>>> >>>> thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that >>>> individually referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, >>>> i'm reminded that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, >>>> that i've noticed. only this time, the response is different in both >>>> quality and quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - >>>> which in my mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a >>>> newer and younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use >>>> of our shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. >>>> >>>> as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on the >>>> spot - elicits the synonyms: >>>> embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - >>>> wither - show up. >>>> >>>> if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words of >>>> praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have wondered >>>> about that evolution." >>>> >>>> i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they >>>> know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they >>>> do does." >>>> >>>> in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in social >>>> gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a person >>>> of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of their own >>>> comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. >>>> >>>> from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of both >>>> white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. and >>>> one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that those >>>> who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points of view >>>> that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this should >>>> not be placed on those already socially marginalized. >>>> >>>> i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get their >>>> master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith >>>> Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography >>>> as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which >>>> Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back >>>> from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts >>>> with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read >>>> the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this >>>> was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students >>>> were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community >>>> they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. >>>> >>>> i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly complex >>>> topic. >>>> >>>> and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it was >>>> illuminating. >>>> >>>> phillip >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> I[image: Angelus Novus] >>> The >>> Angel's View of History >>> >>> The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside. So >>> organisms create the conditions of their own future >>> which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin >>> >>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XYmLWyz9q4lKIpA7Sznmx6PRdxmSNMBqyLddfBzlPoiIVvPGFyuPh4DmlNkK6VCdzGB2oQ$ >>> >>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>> >>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>> >>> >>> >>> > > -- > To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!XYmLWyz9q4lKIpA7Sznmx6PRdxmSNMBqyLddfBzlPoiIVvPGFyuPh4DmlNkK6VCU3DZPAQ$ > > > -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201127/74827803/attachment.html From bferholt@gmail.com Fri Nov 27 15:27:36 2020 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 18:27:36 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> Message-ID: Correction: We must of course fight in private and with a few select supporters -- but not ONLY this way, the fighting for this cause must also be demanded of all members -- and is there not a way to give some kind of credit for this labor that works towards tenure and promotion (a title?)? ... actually, that last is a serious question. Beth On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:10 PM Beth Ferholt wrote: > Zara invited other risks -- Thank you for asking us all! -- I would like > to add: > > 6. "If I say something and there is only silence ... and then I say > something else and there is only silence, again ... how will I remember > that this is Not just the evidence I need to prove that I should have > remained in another profession, where people understood me when I spoke?" > *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we sustain our > collective work to help all members to hold at bay the pernicious deficit > model, never thinking that this is a battle we each must fight in private > and alone, or with a few select supporters? How do we help all of us to > remember that this fight takes active and ongoing as well as collective > work, and that for each success story against the odds we have lost 100's > of voices -- and often the voices of those with the most valuable (as they > are rare in the field) perspectives for the field? Can we each be > supported as long as necessary as we "learn to ride this particular kind > of bike" (or adjust the bike so that we can ride it), providing only that > we have the desire to try? > > #7. ?? > > Beth > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 5:37 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Wow! That is a really useful post, Zaza. I have bookmarked it. >> >> I think your suggestion to frame xmca in terms of "risk" is very >> productive. >> Thank you. >> >> andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 28/11/2020 7:51 am, Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: >> >> I follow a lot of the discussions on xmca but rarely post. Despite many >> very warm invitations from Mike and others, I have only posted on this >> forum 3 times since joining in 2014. I read about 80% of the threads. >> >> So to the question, "isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type..." >> here's are my thoughts: >> >> I'm a millennial so I have been observing online discussion forum >> blowouts since I was about 16. People who look like me (black, female, >> immigrant) get trolled online all the time. I'm not saying xmca has trolls >> but I've become conditioned to worry about the risks of posting in any >> online forum. As a general rule it is safer not to get sucked in - to watch >> but not to get blood on my hands. I am only an active poster in groups >> where I trust the members and feel safe in, even when I don't know all the >> members. So what I asked myself what is it about xmca that makes me feel >> like I have to be super careful about what I post? What makes this group >> feel "unsafe" or "toxic". In other words, what makes it feel *risky* to >> post something on xmca? Below I've listed the 5 risks that I worry about. >> There are more, certainly, but I picked just the first few to start and >> paired them with some design questions I think we should be asking about >> how to design the community we want here. >> >> 1. "What is the context for this post? I think I get it but are we >> talking about the same thing?" >> *The design question we can ask ourselves**:* What can we do to provide >> better context, in a way that invites more members to add to an original >> post? >> >> 2. "I'm only marginally familiar with this topic, I'm curious but I won't >> ask questions but I don't have the energy to be "schooled" on this today." *The >> design questions we can ask ourselves:* How can we be argumentative, >> informative, without being toxic? What is the best way to engage novices >> and experts in this topic? >> >> 3. "Who else is out there, reading this? I don't know who I'm talking to >> except the 5 or so active members" >> *The design question we can ask ourselves:* What can we do as a >> community to learn more about each other, our work, and our domains of >> focus or ways of applying CHAT. >> >> 4. "If I post this will it turn into a long and laborious (unpleasant) >> email exchange? Am I ready for a fight in this space?" >> *The design question we can ask ourselves:* How do we bring critique >> without criticism? How do we sustain conversation without putting the >> burden on only the original poster? >> >> 5. "Dude, I don't read or speak Russian so I have nothing to say about >> the translation from the original." >> *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we get around the >> challenges of casual and virtual engagement; and the challenge of not >> knowing who this community is or if what I (each of us) can contribute will >> be valuable to the community. >> >> So this is why, for me, it's not so straightforward to say anyone can >> post. I'd love to see what other "risks" people have perceived. I'd also >> love to be part of doing something about addressing them, because I do >> think this forum has the potential to be an incredible community for more >> than just a handful of members. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 12:35 PM Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >>> Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what he or she wishes >>> and then click the Send button? >>> >>> This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is confusing to me. >>> >>> Maybe this is something only someone on the left can understand? >>> >>> If people want to post a comment, question, remark, new topic, etc, they >>> should just do it. Who cares if it's not automatically received with open >>> arms or agreement? Isn't that half the fun? >>> >>> Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing in academia? >>> Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching that level come with the freedom >>> to speak openly? As one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these >>> pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really counterproductive to me. >>> >>> Naively (I suppose), >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. >>>> I, too, have been thinking about the long history of xmca's inability >>>> to create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn >>>> the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would conduct >>>> pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion >>>> for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen the >>>> correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know >>>> with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to >>>> enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a >>>> discourse practice that discourages participation from those who are >>>> intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some >>>> senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of recommendation >>>> for a scarce job. >>>> >>>> So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone else. >>>> The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, >>>> covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought us >>>> the presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky >>>> and the >>>> tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are adept in, >>>> and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing educational >>>> practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a >>>> manner that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of >>>> desired >>>> pedagogical outcomes. >>>> >>>> Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did not >>>> spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and >>>> before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and designs of >>>> its creators. >>>> >>>> At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, >>>> written in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of >>>> xlchc, its >>>> transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca >>>> authors received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely >>>> because of >>>> the issues being raised here for the past week). >>>> >>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf >>>> >>>> There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when LCHC >>>> tried to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep >>>> former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other on a >>>> working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional >>>> that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. A lot >>>> of smart, experienced, people tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, as we >>>> are witnessing. >>>> Time for the next generation to join the discussion. >>>> >>>> Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much. >>>> >>>> thanks for reading this far if you have! >>>> stay safe. take care >>>> mike ? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who lament, >>>> xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind >>>> bias >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip < >>>> Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>> dear Everyone: >>>>> >>>>> thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that >>>>> individually referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, >>>>> i'm reminded that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, >>>>> that i've noticed. only this time, the response is different in both >>>>> quality and quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - >>>>> which in my mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a >>>>> newer and younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use >>>>> of our shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. >>>>> >>>>> as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on the >>>>> spot - elicits the synonyms: >>>>> embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - >>>>> wither - show up. >>>>> >>>>> if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words of >>>>> praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have wondered >>>>> about that evolution." >>>>> >>>>> i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they >>>>> know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they >>>>> do does." >>>>> >>>>> in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in social >>>>> gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a person >>>>> of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of their own >>>>> comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. >>>>> >>>>> from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of both >>>>> white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. and >>>>> one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that those >>>>> who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points of view >>>>> that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this should >>>>> not be placed on those already socially marginalized. >>>>> >>>>> i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get their >>>>> master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith >>>>> Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography >>>>> as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which >>>>> Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back >>>>> from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts >>>>> with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read >>>>> the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this >>>>> was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students >>>>> were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community >>>>> they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. >>>>> >>>>> i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly complex >>>>> topic. >>>>> >>>>> and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it >>>>> was illuminating. >>>>> >>>>> phillip >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> I[image: Angelus Novus] >>>> The >>>> Angel's View of History >>>> >>>> The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside. So >>>> organisms create the conditions of their own future >>>> which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin >>>> >>>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!RUYhza7SOrG-rXe1Y6_r-Pvi-ADWBj-RV9DeXD0kMBAMwp_LjOqcIgyslBiMbLozp15Njw$ >>>> >>>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>>> >>>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> -- >> To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!RUYhza7SOrG-rXe1Y6_r-Pvi-ADWBj-RV9DeXD0kMBAMwp_LjOqcIgyslBiMbLoBd4cOPA$ >> >> >> > > -- > Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) > Associate Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center > Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping > University > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Office: 2306 James Hall > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201127/5f6be5af/attachment.html From bferholt@gmail.com Fri Nov 27 15:30:07 2020 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 18:30:07 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> Message-ID: Keeping at bay the deficit model takes a lot of time and energy, is all I mean. B. On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:27 PM Beth Ferholt wrote: > Correction: We must of course fight in private and with a few > select supporters -- but not ONLY this way, the fighting for this cause > must also be demanded of all members -- and is there not a way to give some > kind of credit for this labor that works towards tenure and promotion (a > title?)? ... actually, that last is a serious question. Beth > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:10 PM Beth Ferholt wrote: > >> Zara invited other risks -- Thank you for asking us all! -- I would like >> to add: >> >> 6. "If I say something and there is only silence ... and then I say >> something else and there is only silence, again ... how will I remember >> that this is Not just the evidence I need to prove that I should have >> remained in another profession, where people understood me when I spoke?" >> *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we sustain our >> collective work to help all members to hold at bay the pernicious deficit >> model, never thinking that this is a battle we each must fight in private >> and alone, or with a few select supporters? How do we help all of us to >> remember that this fight takes active and ongoing as well as collective >> work, and that for each success story against the odds we have lost 100's >> of voices -- and often the voices of those with the most valuable (as they >> are rare in the field) perspectives for the field? Can we each be >> supported as long as necessary as we "learn to ride this particular kind >> of bike" (or adjust the bike so that we can ride it), providing only that >> we have the desire to try? >> >> #7. ?? >> >> Beth >> >> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 5:37 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> Wow! That is a really useful post, Zaza. I have bookmarked it. >>> >>> I think your suggestion to frame xmca in terms of "risk" is very >>> productive. >>> Thank you. >>> >>> andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 28/11/2020 7:51 am, Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: >>> >>> I follow a lot of the discussions on xmca but rarely post. Despite many >>> very warm invitations from Mike and others, I have only posted on this >>> forum 3 times since joining in 2014. I read about 80% of the threads. >>> >>> So to the question, "isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type..." >>> here's are my thoughts: >>> >>> I'm a millennial so I have been observing online discussion forum >>> blowouts since I was about 16. People who look like me (black, female, >>> immigrant) get trolled online all the time. I'm not saying xmca has trolls >>> but I've become conditioned to worry about the risks of posting in any >>> online forum. As a general rule it is safer not to get sucked in - to watch >>> but not to get blood on my hands. I am only an active poster in groups >>> where I trust the members and feel safe in, even when I don't know all the >>> members. So what I asked myself what is it about xmca that makes me feel >>> like I have to be super careful about what I post? What makes this group >>> feel "unsafe" or "toxic". In other words, what makes it feel *risky* to >>> post something on xmca? Below I've listed the 5 risks that I worry about. >>> There are more, certainly, but I picked just the first few to start and >>> paired them with some design questions I think we should be asking about >>> how to design the community we want here. >>> >>> 1. "What is the context for this post? I think I get it but are we >>> talking about the same thing?" >>> *The design question we can ask ourselves**:* What can we do to provide >>> better context, in a way that invites more members to add to an original >>> post? >>> >>> 2. "I'm only marginally familiar with this topic, I'm curious but I >>> won't ask questions but I don't have the energy to be "schooled" on this >>> today." *The design questions we can ask ourselves:* How can we be >>> argumentative, informative, without being toxic? What is the best way to >>> engage novices and experts in this topic? >>> >>> 3. "Who else is out there, reading this? I don't know who I'm talking to >>> except the 5 or so active members" >>> *The design question we can ask ourselves:* What can we do as a >>> community to learn more about each other, our work, and our domains of >>> focus or ways of applying CHAT. >>> >>> 4. "If I post this will it turn into a long and laborious (unpleasant) >>> email exchange? Am I ready for a fight in this space?" >>> *The design question we can ask ourselves:* How do we bring critique >>> without criticism? How do we sustain conversation without putting the >>> burden on only the original poster? >>> >>> 5. "Dude, I don't read or speak Russian so I have nothing to say about >>> the translation from the original." >>> *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we get around the >>> challenges of casual and virtual engagement; and the challenge of not >>> knowing who this community is or if what I (each of us) can contribute will >>> be valuable to the community. >>> >>> So this is why, for me, it's not so straightforward to say anyone can >>> post. I'd love to see what other "risks" people have perceived. I'd also >>> love to be part of doing something about addressing them, because I do >>> think this forum has the potential to be an incredible community for more >>> than just a handful of members. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 12:35 PM Anthony Barra >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what he or she wishes >>>> and then click the Send button? >>>> >>>> This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is confusing to me. >>>> >>>> Maybe this is something only someone on the left can understand? >>>> >>>> If people want to post a comment, question, remark, new topic, etc, >>>> they should just do it. Who cares if it's not automatically received with >>>> open arms or agreement? Isn't that half the fun? >>>> >>>> Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing in academia? >>>> Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching that level come with the freedom >>>> to speak openly? As one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these >>>> pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really counterproductive to me. >>>> >>>> Naively (I suppose), >>>> >>>> Anthony >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>>> Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. >>>>> I, too, have been thinking about the long history of xmca's inability >>>>> to create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn >>>>> the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would >>>>> conduct pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion >>>>> for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen the >>>>> correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know >>>>> with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to >>>>> enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a >>>>> discourse practice that discourages participation from those who are >>>>> intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some >>>>> senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of recommendation >>>>> for a scarce job. >>>>> >>>>> So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone >>>>> else. The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, >>>>> covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought us >>>>> the presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky >>>>> and the >>>>> tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are adept >>>>> in, and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing educational >>>>> practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a >>>>> manner that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of >>>>> desired >>>>> pedagogical outcomes. >>>>> >>>>> Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did not >>>>> spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and >>>>> before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and designs >>>>> of its creators. >>>>> >>>>> At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, >>>>> written in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of >>>>> xlchc, its >>>>> transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca >>>>> authors received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely >>>>> because of >>>>> the issues being raised here for the past week). >>>>> >>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf >>>>> >>>>> There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when LCHC >>>>> tried to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep >>>>> former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other on a >>>>> working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional >>>>> that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. A >>>>> lot of smart, experienced, people tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, as >>>>> we are witnessing. >>>>> Time for the next generation to join the discussion. >>>>> >>>>> Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much. >>>>> >>>>> thanks for reading this far if you have! >>>>> stay safe. take care >>>>> mike ? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who lament, >>>>> xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind >>>>> bias >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip < >>>>> Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> dear Everyone: >>>>>> >>>>>> thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that >>>>>> individually referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, >>>>>> i'm reminded that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, >>>>>> that i've noticed. only this time, the response is different in both >>>>>> quality and quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - >>>>>> which in my mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a >>>>>> newer and younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use >>>>>> of our shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. >>>>>> >>>>>> as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on >>>>>> the spot - elicits the synonyms: >>>>>> embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - >>>>>> wither - show up. >>>>>> >>>>>> if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words of >>>>>> praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have wondered >>>>>> about that evolution." >>>>>> >>>>>> i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they >>>>>> know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they >>>>>> do does." >>>>>> >>>>>> in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in >>>>>> social gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a >>>>>> person of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of >>>>>> their own comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. >>>>>> >>>>>> from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of >>>>>> both white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. >>>>>> and one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that >>>>>> those who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points >>>>>> of view that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this >>>>>> should not be placed on those already socially marginalized. >>>>>> >>>>>> i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get their >>>>>> master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith >>>>>> Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography >>>>>> as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which >>>>>> Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back >>>>>> from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts >>>>>> with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read >>>>>> the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this >>>>>> was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students >>>>>> were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community >>>>>> they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. >>>>>> >>>>>> i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly complex >>>>>> topic. >>>>>> >>>>>> and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it >>>>>> was illuminating. >>>>>> >>>>>> phillip >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> I[image: Angelus Novus] >>>>> The >>>>> Angel's View of History >>>>> >>>>> The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside. So >>>>> organisms create the conditions of their own future >>>>> which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin >>>>> >>>>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!WbYoocRiFDBgarny0EHBPOgJD2NOv7rBWR4Iqg0epOiBwLR6sFWA_srgWWGp1Fw4p-02oA$ >>>>> >>>>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>>>> >>>>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>>>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> -- >>> To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!WbYoocRiFDBgarny0EHBPOgJD2NOv7rBWR4Iqg0epOiBwLR6sFWA_srgWWGp1FygS7NYOA$ >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) >> Associate Professor >> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >> >> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center >> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping >> University >> >> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. >> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >> Office: 2306 James Hall >> 2900 Bedford Avenue >> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >> > > > -- > Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) > Associate Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center > Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping > University > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Office: 2306 James Hall > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201127/1c84bd2d/attachment.html From AStetsenko@gc.cuny.edu Fri Nov 27 16:29:04 2020 From: AStetsenko@gc.cuny.edu (Stetsenko, Anna) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 00:29:04 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] keeping eyes open In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org>, Message-ID: <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> There is always background and history to everything. Things were clear at least since this exchange (below), are our eyes open?? Read back from that June 7th? email, Michael Glassman writing regarding Anthony Barra?'s posts. There was no appropriate action taken then and so things have been dragging on. Glassman might have quit too after that. And also - there should be no doubt that the origins of CHAT have to do with the left, there is no other way to understand it other than from the left in political terms (even if Vygotsky has been domesticated since his days). No surprise, theory is never neutral. There is politics in this recent episode of course too, through and through. On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael > wrote: What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being used to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. Michael On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael > wrote: ... What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. Michael? Anna Stetsenko, PhD Professor Ph.D. Programs in Psychology/Human Development and in Urban Education The Graduate Center of The City University of New York 365 5th Avenue, New York, NY 10016 https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://annastetsenko.ws.gc.cuny.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!SMQkpxPjp5wNS_KhNFjGmxYk4nRxGGmWJCUwFCsae_mfzFIBqhqJHiSrbjTWDEGJ-a7qPw$ visit https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.academia.edu__;!!Mih3wA!SMQkpxPjp5wNS_KhNFjGmxYk4nRxGGmWJCUwFCsae_mfzFIBqhqJHiSrbjTWDEEWoKOutg$ for my recent publications ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Beth Ferholt Sent: Friday, November 27, 2020 6:10 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? Zara invited other risks -- Thank you for asking us all! -- I would like to add: 6. "If I say something and there is only silence ... and then I say something else and there is only silence, again ... how will I remember that this is Not just the evidence I need to prove that I should have remained in another profession, where people understood me when I spoke?" The design question we can ask ourselves: How do we sustain our collective work to help all members to hold at bay the pernicious deficit model, never thinking that this is a battle we each must fight in private and alone, or with a few select supporters? How do we help all of us to remember that this fight takes active and ongoing as well as collective work, and that for each success story against the odds we have lost 100's of voices -- and often the voices of those with the most valuable (as they are rare in the field) perspectives for the field? Can we each be supported as long as necessary as we "learn to ride this particular kind of bike" (or adjust the bike so that we can ride it), providing only that we have the desire to try? #7. ?? Beth On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 5:37 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Wow! That is a really useful post, Zaza. I have bookmarked it. I think your suggestion to frame xmca in terms of "risk" is very productive. Thank you. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 28/11/2020 7:51 am, Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: I follow a lot of the discussions on xmca but rarely post. Despite many very warm invitations from Mike and others, I have only posted on this forum 3 times since joining in 2014. I read about 80% of the threads. So to the question, "isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type..." here's are my thoughts: I'm a millennial so I have been observing online discussion forum blowouts since I was about 16. People who look like me (black, female, immigrant) get trolled online all the time. I'm not saying xmca has trolls but I've become conditioned to worry about the risks of posting in any online forum. As a general rule it is safer not to get sucked in - to watch but not to get blood on my hands. I am only an active poster in groups where I trust the members and feel safe in, even when I don't know all the members. So what I asked myself what is it about xmca that makes me feel like I have to be super careful about what I post? What makes this group feel "unsafe" or "toxic". In other words, what makes it feel risky to post something on xmca? Below I've listed the 5 risks that I worry about. There are more, certainly, but I picked just the first few to start and paired them with some design questions I think we should be asking about how to design the community we want here. 1. "What is the context for this post? I think I get it but are we talking about the same thing?" The design question we can ask ourselves: What can we do to provide better context, in a way that invites more members to add to an original post? 2. "I'm only marginally familiar with this topic, I'm curious but I won't ask questions but I don't have the energy to be "schooled" on this today." The design questions we can ask ourselves: How can we be argumentative, informative, without being toxic? What is the best way to engage novices and experts in this topic? 3. "Who else is out there, reading this? I don't know who I'm talking to except the 5 or so active members" The design question we can ask ourselves: What can we do as a community to learn more about each other, our work, and our domains of focus or ways of applying CHAT. 4. "If I post this will it turn into a long and laborious (unpleasant) email exchange? Am I ready for a fight in this space?" The design question we can ask ourselves: How do we bring critique without criticism? How do we sustain conversation without putting the burden on only the original poster? 5. "Dude, I don't read or speak Russian so I have nothing to say about the translation from the original." The design question we can ask ourselves: How do we get around the challenges of casual and virtual engagement; and the challenge of not knowing who this community is or if what I (each of us) can contribute will be valuable to the community. So this is why, for me, it's not so straightforward to say anyone can post. I'd love to see what other "risks" people have perceived. I'd also love to be part of doing something about addressing them, because I do think this forum has the potential to be an incredible community for more than just a handful of members. On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 12:35 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what he or she wishes and then click the Send button? This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is confusing to me. Maybe this is something only someone on the left can understand? If people want to post a comment, question, remark, new topic, etc, they should just do it. Who cares if it's not automatically received with open arms or agreement? Isn't that half the fun? Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing in academia? Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching that level come with the freedom to speak openly? As one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really counterproductive to me. Naively (I suppose), Anthony On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole > wrote: Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. I, too, have been thinking about the long history of xmca's inability to create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would conduct pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen the correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a discourse practice that discourages participation from those who are intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of recommendation for a scarce job. So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone else. The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought us the presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky and the tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are adept in, and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing educational practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a manner that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of desired pedagogical outcomes. Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did not spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and designs of its creators. At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, written in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of xlchc, its transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca authors received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely because of the issues being raised here for the past week). http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf [lchc.ucsd.edu] There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when LCHC tried to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other on a working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. A lot of smart, experienced, people tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, as we are witnessing. Time for the next generation to join the discussion. Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much. thanks for reading this far if you have! stay safe. take care mike ? I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who lament, xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind bias On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip > wrote: dear Everyone: thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that individually referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, i'm reminded that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, that i've noticed. only this time, the response is different in both quality and quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - which in my mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a newer and younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use of our shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on the spot - elicits the synonyms: embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - wither - show up. if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words of praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have wondered about that evolution." i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they do does." in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in social gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a person of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of their own comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of both white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. and one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that those who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points of view that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this should not be placed on those already socially marginalized. i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get their master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly complex topic. and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it was illuminating. phillip -- I[Angelus Novus]The Angel's View of History The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside. So organisms create the conditions of their own future which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!SMQkpxPjp5wNS_KhNFjGmxYk4nRxGGmWJCUwFCsae_mfzFIBqhqJHiSrbjTWDEG0FJDpiQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu [lchc.ucsd.edu]. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu [lchcautobio.ucsd.edu]. -- To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!SMQkpxPjp5wNS_KhNFjGmxYk4nRxGGmWJCUwFCsae_mfzFIBqhqJHiSrbjTWDEHIoJOnjQ$ -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/409993eb/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Fri Nov 27 17:43:47 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 20:43:47 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: keeping eyes open In-Reply-To: <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> Message-ID: Yes, sins were committed... e.g., sharing the work of 4 widely respected (and contested) African-American scholars, whose heterodox scholarship is additive, though of course not definitive. Additive, that is, to anyone open to intellectual diversity. I came to here hoping to learn more about Vygotsky, not to argue. And if you'd like me to leave, Anna, why not just ask me? This is your field, not mine; I haven't put in 1/1000th the hours you have. I won't mind -- I'm very tolerant of diverse views other than my own. It's a virtue, Anthony Barra P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject matter of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the *development of human higher psychological functions*. (How that is "left," "right," or otherwise is beyond me.) On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 7:33 PM Stetsenko, Anna wrote: > There is always background and history to everything. Things were clear > at least since this exchange (below), are our eyes open?? Read back from > that June 7th? email, Michael Glassman writing regarding Anthony Barra?'s > posts. There was no appropriate action taken then and so things have been > dragging on. Glassman might have quit too after that. > > > And also - there should be no doubt that the origins of CHAT have to do > with the left, there is no other way to understand it other than from the > left in political terms (even if Vygotsky has been domesticated since his > days). No surprise, theory is never neutral. There is politics in this > recent episode of course too, through and through. > > > On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was > one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being used to > proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. *The > list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is > possible in this day and age*. > > These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. > > Michael > > > > On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael wrote: >>>> >>>>> ... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions >>>>> was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to >>>>> proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The >>>>> list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is >>>>> possible in this day and age. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with >>>>> anybody. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Michael? >>>>> >>>> > > > Anna Stetsenko, PhD > > Professor > > Ph.D. Programs in Psychology/Human Development and in Urban Education > The Graduate Center of The City University of New York > 365 5th Avenue, New York, NY 10016 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://annastetsenko.ws.gc.cuny.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!Vf-Yofg37re4KNXl0kPgRFWINnHo0LQ6tq5Fv0waRAJDKwCurHAlQDDFaIdoHxygto6pdQ$ > > > visit https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.academia.edu__;!!Mih3wA!Vf-Yofg37re4KNXl0kPgRFWINnHo0LQ6tq5Fv0waRAJDKwCurHAlQDDFaIdoHxxH2K6TwA$ > > for my recent publications > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Beth Ferholt > *Sent:* Friday, November 27, 2020 6:10 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? > > Zara invited other risks -- Thank you for asking us all! -- I would like > to add: > > 6. "If I say something and there is only silence ... and then I say > something else and there is only silence, again ... how will I remember > that this is Not just the evidence I need to prove that I should have > remained in another profession, where people understood me when I spoke?" > *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we sustain our > collective work to help all members to hold at bay the pernicious deficit > model, never thinking that this is a battle we each must fight in private > and alone, or with a few select supporters? How do we help all of us to > remember that this fight takes active and ongoing as well as collective > work, and that for each success story against the odds we have lost 100's > of voices -- and often the voices of those with the most valuable (as they > are rare in the field) perspectives for the field? Can we each be > supported as long as necessary as we "learn to ride this particular kind > of bike" (or adjust the bike so that we can ride it), providing only that > we have the desire to try? > > #7. ?? > > Beth > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 5:37 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Wow! That is a really useful post, Zaza. I have bookmarked it. >> >> I think your suggestion to frame xmca in terms of "risk" is very >> productive. >> Thank you. >> >> andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 28/11/2020 7:51 am, Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: >> >> I follow a lot of the discussions on xmca but rarely post. Despite many >> very warm invitations from Mike and others, I have only posted on this >> forum 3 times since joining in 2014. I read about 80% of the threads. >> >> So to the question, "isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type..." >> here's are my thoughts: >> >> I'm a millennial so I have been observing online discussion forum >> blowouts since I was about 16. People who look like me (black, female, >> immigrant) get trolled online all the time. I'm not saying xmca has trolls >> but I've become conditioned to worry about the risks of posting in any >> online forum. As a general rule it is safer not to get sucked in - to watch >> but not to get blood on my hands. I am only an active poster in groups >> where I trust the members and feel safe in, even when I don't know all the >> members. So what I asked myself what is it about xmca that makes me feel >> like I have to be super careful about what I post? What makes this group >> feel "unsafe" or "toxic". In other words, what makes it feel *risky* to >> post something on xmca? Below I've listed the 5 risks that I worry about. >> There are more, certainly, but I picked just the first few to start and >> paired them with some design questions I think we should be asking about >> how to design the community we want here. >> >> 1. "What is the context for this post? I think I get it but are we >> talking about the same thing?" >> *The design question we can ask ourselves**:* What can we do to provide >> better context, in a way that invites more members to add to an original >> post? >> >> 2. "I'm only marginally familiar with this topic, I'm curious but I won't >> ask questions but I don't have the energy to be "schooled" on this today." *The >> design questions we can ask ourselves:* How can we be argumentative, >> informative, without being toxic? What is the best way to engage novices >> and experts in this topic? >> >> 3. "Who else is out there, reading this? I don't know who I'm talking to >> except the 5 or so active members" >> *The design question we can ask ourselves:* What can we do as a >> community to learn more about each other, our work, and our domains of >> focus or ways of applying CHAT. >> >> 4. "If I post this will it turn into a long and laborious (unpleasant) >> email exchange? Am I ready for a fight in this space?" >> *The design question we can ask ourselves:* How do we bring critique >> without criticism? How do we sustain conversation without putting the >> burden on only the original poster? >> >> 5. "Dude, I don't read or speak Russian so I have nothing to say about >> the translation from the original." >> *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we get around the >> challenges of casual and virtual engagement; and the challenge of not >> knowing who this community is or if what I (each of us) can contribute will >> be valuable to the community. >> >> So this is why, for me, it's not so straightforward to say anyone can >> post. I'd love to see what other "risks" people have perceived. I'd also >> love to be part of doing something about addressing them, because I do >> think this forum has the potential to be an incredible community for more >> than just a handful of members. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 12:35 PM Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >>> Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what he or she wishes >>> and then click the Send button? >>> >>> This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is confusing to me. >>> >>> Maybe this is something only someone on the left can understand? >>> >>> If people want to post a comment, question, remark, new topic, etc, they >>> should just do it. Who cares if it's not automatically received with open >>> arms or agreement? Isn't that half the fun? >>> >>> Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing in academia? >>> Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching that level come with the freedom >>> to speak openly? As one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these >>> pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really counterproductive to me. >>> >>> Naively (I suppose), >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. >>>> I, too, have been thinking about the long history of xmca's inability >>>> to create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn >>>> the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would conduct >>>> pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion >>>> for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen the >>>> correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know >>>> with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to >>>> enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a >>>> discourse practice that discourages participation from those who are >>>> intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some >>>> senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of recommendation >>>> for a scarce job. >>>> >>>> So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone else. >>>> The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, >>>> covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought us >>>> the presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky >>>> and the >>>> tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are adept in, >>>> and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing educational >>>> practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a >>>> manner that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of >>>> desired >>>> pedagogical outcomes. >>>> >>>> Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did not >>>> spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and >>>> before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and designs of >>>> its creators. >>>> >>>> At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, >>>> written in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of >>>> xlchc, its >>>> transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca >>>> authors received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely >>>> because of >>>> the issues being raised here for the past week). >>>> >>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf >>>> [lchc.ucsd.edu] >>>> >>>> >>>> There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when LCHC >>>> tried to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep >>>> former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other on a >>>> working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional >>>> that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. A lot >>>> of smart, experienced, people tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, as we >>>> are witnessing. >>>> Time for the next generation to join the discussion. >>>> >>>> Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much. >>>> >>>> thanks for reading this far if you have! >>>> stay safe. take care >>>> mike ? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who lament, >>>> xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind >>>> bias >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip < >>>> Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>> dear Everyone: >>>>> >>>>> thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that >>>>> individually referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, >>>>> i'm reminded that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, >>>>> that i've noticed. only this time, the response is different in both >>>>> quality and quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - >>>>> which in my mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a >>>>> newer and younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use >>>>> of our shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. >>>>> >>>>> as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on the >>>>> spot - elicits the synonyms: >>>>> embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - >>>>> wither - show up. >>>>> >>>>> if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words of >>>>> praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have wondered >>>>> about that evolution." >>>>> >>>>> i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they >>>>> know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they >>>>> do does." >>>>> >>>>> in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in social >>>>> gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a person >>>>> of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of their own >>>>> comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. >>>>> >>>>> from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of both >>>>> white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. and >>>>> one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that those >>>>> who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points of view >>>>> that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this should >>>>> not be placed on those already socially marginalized. >>>>> >>>>> i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get their >>>>> master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith >>>>> Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography >>>>> as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which >>>>> Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back >>>>> from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts >>>>> with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read >>>>> the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this >>>>> was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students >>>>> were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community >>>>> they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. >>>>> >>>>> i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly complex >>>>> topic. >>>>> >>>>> and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it >>>>> was illuminating. >>>>> >>>>> phillip >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> I[image: Angelus Novus] >>>> The >>>> Angel's View of History >>>> >>>> The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside. So >>>> organisms create the conditions of their own future >>>> which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin >>>> >>>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Vf-Yofg37re4KNXl0kPgRFWINnHo0LQ6tq5Fv0waRAJDKwCurHAlQDDFaIdoHxyjbmosYQ$ >>>> >>>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>>> >>>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu [lchc.ucsd.edu] >>>> >>>> . >>>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu [lchcautobio.ucsd.edu] >>>> >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> -- >> To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!Vf-Yofg37re4KNXl0kPgRFWINnHo0LQ6tq5Fv0waRAJDKwCurHAlQDDFaIdoHxwqTKzsqw$ >> >> >> > > -- > Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) > Associate Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center > Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping > University > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Office: 2306 James Hall > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201127/63b25945/attachment.html From zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com Fri Nov 27 18:02:11 2020 From: zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com (Zaza Kabayadondo) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 18:02:11 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> Message-ID: Thank you for offering up a risk in this community, Beth. I feel this too. It might in fact be one of the biggest risks because I experience this online and offline too (on teams in my work, in the classroom, even in my extended family). Being met with silence has the effect of making you feel as though your voice is not audible, does not exist. Erasure. I hope we can do some restorative work on this forum (and the other discourse communities we are in for that matter) so that we can find, welcome, embrace (and retrieve) those lost voices. Side note, retrieving lost voice is a cultural practice in Zimbabwe. I once worked on an article about that sensation of voicelessness but never published it because it felt too deeply personal or like something nobody would want to hear, talk about, or find valuable. On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 3:32 PM Beth Ferholt wrote: > Keeping at bay the deficit model takes a lot of time and energy, is all I > mean. B. > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:27 PM Beth Ferholt wrote: > >> Correction: We must of course fight in private and with a few >> select supporters -- but not ONLY this way, the fighting for this cause >> must also be demanded of all members -- and is there not a way to give some >> kind of credit for this labor that works towards tenure and promotion (a >> title?)? ... actually, that last is a serious question. Beth >> >> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:10 PM Beth Ferholt wrote: >> >>> Zara invited other risks -- Thank you for asking us all! -- I would like >>> to add: >>> >>> 6. "If I say something and there is only silence ... and then I say >>> something else and there is only silence, again ... how will I remember >>> that this is Not just the evidence I need to prove that I should have >>> remained in another profession, where people understood me when I spoke?" >>> *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we sustain our >>> collective work to help all members to hold at bay the pernicious deficit >>> model, never thinking that this is a battle we each must fight in private >>> and alone, or with a few select supporters? How do we help all of us to >>> remember that this fight takes active and ongoing as well as collective >>> work, and that for each success story against the odds we have lost 100's >>> of voices -- and often the voices of those with the most valuable (as they >>> are rare in the field) perspectives for the field? Can we each be >>> supported as long as necessary as we "learn to ride this particular >>> kind of bike" (or adjust the bike so that we can ride it), providing only >>> that we have the desire to try? >>> >>> #7. ?? >>> >>> Beth >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 5:37 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>>> Wow! That is a really useful post, Zaza. I have bookmarked it. >>>> >>>> I think your suggestion to frame xmca in terms of "risk" is very >>>> productive. >>>> Thank you. >>>> >>>> andy >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> On 28/11/2020 7:51 am, Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: >>>> >>>> I follow a lot of the discussions on xmca but rarely post. Despite many >>>> very warm invitations from Mike and others, I have only posted on this >>>> forum 3 times since joining in 2014. I read about 80% of the threads. >>>> >>>> So to the question, "isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type..." >>>> here's are my thoughts: >>>> >>>> I'm a millennial so I have been observing online discussion forum >>>> blowouts since I was about 16. People who look like me (black, female, >>>> immigrant) get trolled online all the time. I'm not saying xmca has trolls >>>> but I've become conditioned to worry about the risks of posting in any >>>> online forum. As a general rule it is safer not to get sucked in - to watch >>>> but not to get blood on my hands. I am only an active poster in groups >>>> where I trust the members and feel safe in, even when I don't know all the >>>> members. So what I asked myself what is it about xmca that makes me feel >>>> like I have to be super careful about what I post? What makes this group >>>> feel "unsafe" or "toxic". In other words, what makes it feel *risky* >>>> to post something on xmca? Below I've listed the 5 risks that I worry >>>> about. There are more, certainly, but I picked just the first few to start >>>> and paired them with some design questions I think we should be asking >>>> about how to design the community we want here. >>>> >>>> 1. "What is the context for this post? I think I get it but are we >>>> talking about the same thing?" >>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves**:* What can we do to >>>> provide better context, in a way that invites more members to add to an >>>> original post? >>>> >>>> 2. "I'm only marginally familiar with this topic, I'm curious but I >>>> won't ask questions but I don't have the energy to be "schooled" on this >>>> today." *The design questions we can ask ourselves:* How can we be >>>> argumentative, informative, without being toxic? What is the best way to >>>> engage novices and experts in this topic? >>>> >>>> 3. "Who else is out there, reading this? I don't know who I'm talking >>>> to except the 5 or so active members" >>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves:* What can we do as a >>>> community to learn more about each other, our work, and our domains of >>>> focus or ways of applying CHAT. >>>> >>>> 4. "If I post this will it turn into a long and laborious (unpleasant) >>>> email exchange? Am I ready for a fight in this space?" >>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves:* How do we bring critique >>>> without criticism? How do we sustain conversation without putting the >>>> burden on only the original poster? >>>> >>>> 5. "Dude, I don't read or speak Russian so I have nothing to say about >>>> the translation from the original." >>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we get around the >>>> challenges of casual and virtual engagement; and the challenge of not >>>> knowing who this community is or if what I (each of us) can contribute will >>>> be valuable to the community. >>>> >>>> So this is why, for me, it's not so straightforward to say anyone can >>>> post. I'd love to see what other "risks" people have perceived. I'd also >>>> love to be part of doing something about addressing them, because I do >>>> think this forum has the potential to be an incredible community for more >>>> than just a handful of members. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 12:35 PM Anthony Barra >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what he or she wishes >>>>> and then click the Send button? >>>>> >>>>> This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is confusing to >>>>> me. >>>>> >>>>> Maybe this is something only someone on the left can understand? >>>>> >>>>> If people want to post a comment, question, remark, new topic, etc, >>>>> they should just do it. Who cares if it's not automatically received with >>>>> open arms or agreement? Isn't that half the fun? >>>>> >>>>> Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing in academia? >>>>> Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching that level come with the freedom >>>>> to speak openly? As one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these >>>>> pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really counterproductive to me. >>>>> >>>>> Naively (I suppose), >>>>> >>>>> Anthony >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. >>>>>> I, too, have been thinking about the long history of xmca's inability >>>>>> to create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn >>>>>> the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would >>>>>> conduct pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion >>>>>> for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen the >>>>>> correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know >>>>>> with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to >>>>>> enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a >>>>>> discourse practice that discourages participation from those who are >>>>>> intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some >>>>>> senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of >>>>>> recommendation for a scarce job. >>>>>> >>>>>> So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone >>>>>> else. The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, >>>>>> covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought us >>>>>> the presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky >>>>>> and the >>>>>> tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are adept >>>>>> in, and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing educational >>>>>> practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a >>>>>> manner that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of >>>>>> desired >>>>>> pedagogical outcomes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did not >>>>>> spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and >>>>>> before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and designs >>>>>> of its creators. >>>>>> >>>>>> At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, >>>>>> written in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of >>>>>> xlchc, its >>>>>> transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca >>>>>> authors received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely >>>>>> because of >>>>>> the issues being raised here for the past week). >>>>>> >>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf >>>>>> >>>>>> There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when LCHC >>>>>> tried to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep >>>>>> former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other on >>>>>> a working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional >>>>>> that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. A >>>>>> lot of smart, experienced, people tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, as >>>>>> we are witnessing. >>>>>> Time for the next generation to join the discussion. >>>>>> >>>>>> Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much. >>>>>> >>>>>> thanks for reading this far if you have! >>>>>> stay safe. take care >>>>>> mike ? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who lament, >>>>>> xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind >>>>>> bias >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip < >>>>>> Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> dear Everyone: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that >>>>>>> individually referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, >>>>>>> i'm reminded that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, >>>>>>> that i've noticed. only this time, the response is different in both >>>>>>> quality and quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - >>>>>>> which in my mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a >>>>>>> newer and younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use >>>>>>> of our shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on >>>>>>> the spot - elicits the synonyms: >>>>>>> embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - >>>>>>> wither - show up. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words >>>>>>> of praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have >>>>>>> wondered about that evolution." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they >>>>>>> know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they >>>>>>> do does." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in >>>>>>> social gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a >>>>>>> person of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of >>>>>>> their own comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of >>>>>>> both white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. >>>>>>> and one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that >>>>>>> those who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points >>>>>>> of view that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this >>>>>>> should not be placed on those already socially marginalized. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get their >>>>>>> master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith >>>>>>> Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography >>>>>>> as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which >>>>>>> Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back >>>>>>> from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts >>>>>>> with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read >>>>>>> the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this >>>>>>> was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students >>>>>>> were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community >>>>>>> they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly complex >>>>>>> topic. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it >>>>>>> was illuminating. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> phillip >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> I[image: Angelus Novus] >>>>>> The >>>>>> Angel's View of History >>>>>> >>>>>> The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside. So >>>>>> organisms create the conditions of their own future >>>>>> which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin >>>>>> >>>>>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!SdHYGNC4p534j9pNr2cVxAguTdV8QP89w-dManESLxsah9Q9dCt30yIzB1NaykAl8gXRoQ$ >>>>>> >>>>>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>>>>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!SdHYGNC4p534j9pNr2cVxAguTdV8QP89w-dManESLxsah9Q9dCt30yIzB1NaykDH7A9elA$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) >>> Associate Professor >>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >>> >>> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center >>> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping >>> University >>> >>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. >>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>> Office: 2306 James Hall >>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>> >> >> >> -- >> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) >> Associate Professor >> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >> >> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center >> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping >> University >> >> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. >> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >> Office: 2306 James Hall >> 2900 Bedford Avenue >> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >> > > > -- > Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) > Associate Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center > Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping > University > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Office: 2306 James Hall > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > -- To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!SdHYGNC4p534j9pNr2cVxAguTdV8QP89w-dManESLxsah9Q9dCt30yIzB1NaykDH7A9elA$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201127/b2e84aa0/attachment.html From AStetsenko@gc.cuny.edu Fri Nov 27 18:09:12 2020 From: AStetsenko@gc.cuny.edu (Stetsenko, Anna) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 02:09:12 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Vygotsky is dangerous... In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu>, Message-ID: <1606529351240.84497@gc.cuny.edu> Oh yes, Vygotsky is actually very dangerous, the very left you can imagine, as the site you referenced here on xmca has revealed - the invisible serf collar or something, referencing my work by the way as a great danger... So, I would think twice, if I were you (knowing what you posted), to be affiliated with Vygotsky and xmca. But then, I am not a boss here. See, how dangerous this is, here are my words:? "Cultural-historical and activity theories need to [re]connect to radical strands of work, such as critical race theory, to be part of a wide movement of resistance in facing the all-encompassing crisis of late capitalism. The banal, biscuit-box Vygotsky could be then made dangerous again, that is, useful in the struggle for a better world. I borrow from Critchley (2013) who argued against the banal, biscuit-box Shakespeare, saying that ?if the authorities really understood [what he was writing], students might never be allowed to study the text.? This applies equally, if not more, to what could be a de-domesticated Vygotsky." Anna Stetsenko, PhD Professor Ph.D. Programs in Psychology/Human Development and in Urban Education The Graduate Center of The City University of New York 365 5th Avenue, New York, NY 10016 https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://annastetsenko.ws.gc.cuny.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!XRu1x0yYwaiXZTQFK0bUkct2ScQUUvhEAsGrahqNvimMV9BxVm6-54OkZZyUOlBwhO4ehA$ visit https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.academia.edu__;!!Mih3wA!XRu1x0yYwaiXZTQFK0bUkct2ScQUUvhEAsGrahqNvimMV9BxVm6-54OkZZyUOlA4rwOckg$ for my recent publications ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Anthony Barra Sent: Friday, November 27, 2020 8:43 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: keeping eyes open Yes, sins were committed... e.g., sharing the work of 4 widely respected (and contested) African-American scholars, whose heterodox scholarship is additive, though of course not definitive. Additive, that is, to anyone open to intellectual diversity. I came to here hoping to learn more about Vygotsky, not to argue. And if you'd like me to leave, Anna, why not just ask me? This is your field, not mine; I haven't put in 1/1000th the hours you have. I won't mind -- I'm very tolerant of diverse views other than my own. It's a virtue, Anthony Barra P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject matter of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the development of human higher psychological functions. (How that is "left," "right," or otherwise is beyond me.) On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 7:33 PM Stetsenko, Anna > wrote: There is always background and history to everything. Things were clear at least since this exchange (below), are our eyes open?? Read back from that June 7th? email, Michael Glassman writing regarding Anthony Barra?'s posts. There was no appropriate action taken then and so things have been dragging on. Glassman might have quit too after that. And also - there should be no doubt that the origins of CHAT have to do with the left, there is no other way to understand it other than from the left in political terms (even if Vygotsky has been domesticated since his days). No surprise, theory is never neutral. There is politics in this recent episode of course too, through and through. On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael > wrote: What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being used to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. Michael On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael > wrote: ... What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. Michael? Anna Stetsenko, PhD Professor Ph.D. Programs in Psychology/Human Development and in Urban Education The Graduate Center of The City University of New York 365 5th Avenue, New York, NY 10016 https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://annastetsenko.ws.gc.cuny.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!XRu1x0yYwaiXZTQFK0bUkct2ScQUUvhEAsGrahqNvimMV9BxVm6-54OkZZyUOlBwhO4ehA$ visit https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.academia.edu__;!!Mih3wA!XRu1x0yYwaiXZTQFK0bUkct2ScQUUvhEAsGrahqNvimMV9BxVm6-54OkZZyUOlA4rwOckg$ for my recent publications ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Beth Ferholt > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2020 6:10 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? Zara invited other risks -- Thank you for asking us all! -- I would like to add: 6. "If I say something and there is only silence ... and then I say something else and there is only silence, again ... how will I remember that this is Not just the evidence I need to prove that I should have remained in another profession, where people understood me when I spoke?" The design question we can ask ourselves: How do we sustain our collective work to help all members to hold at bay the pernicious deficit model, never thinking that this is a battle we each must fight in private and alone, or with a few select supporters? How do we help all of us to remember that this fight takes active and ongoing as well as collective work, and that for each success story against the odds we have lost 100's of voices -- and often the voices of those with the most valuable (as they are rare in the field) perspectives for the field? Can we each be supported as long as necessary as we "learn to ride this particular kind of bike" (or adjust the bike so that we can ride it), providing only that we have the desire to try? #7. ?? Beth On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 5:37 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Wow! That is a really useful post, Zaza. I have bookmarked it. I think your suggestion to frame xmca in terms of "risk" is very productive. Thank you. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 28/11/2020 7:51 am, Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: I follow a lot of the discussions on xmca but rarely post. Despite many very warm invitations from Mike and others, I have only posted on this forum 3 times since joining in 2014. I read about 80% of the threads. So to the question, "isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type..." here's are my thoughts: I'm a millennial so I have been observing online discussion forum blowouts since I was about 16. People who look like me (black, female, immigrant) get trolled online all the time. I'm not saying xmca has trolls but I've become conditioned to worry about the risks of posting in any online forum. As a general rule it is safer not to get sucked in - to watch but not to get blood on my hands. I am only an active poster in groups where I trust the members and feel safe in, even when I don't know all the members. So what I asked myself what is it about xmca that makes me feel like I have to be super careful about what I post? What makes this group feel "unsafe" or "toxic". In other words, what makes it feel risky to post something on xmca? Below I've listed the 5 risks that I worry about. There are more, certainly, but I picked just the first few to start and paired them with some design questions I think we should be asking about how to design the community we want here. 1. "What is the context for this post? I think I get it but are we talking about the same thing?" The design question we can ask ourselves: What can we do to provide better context, in a way that invites more members to add to an original post? 2. "I'm only marginally familiar with this topic, I'm curious but I won't ask questions but I don't have the energy to be "schooled" on this today." The design questions we can ask ourselves: How can we be argumentative, informative, without being toxic? What is the best way to engage novices and experts in this topic? 3. "Who else is out there, reading this? I don't know who I'm talking to except the 5 or so active members" The design question we can ask ourselves: What can we do as a community to learn more about each other, our work, and our domains of focus or ways of applying CHAT. 4. "If I post this will it turn into a long and laborious (unpleasant) email exchange? Am I ready for a fight in this space?" The design question we can ask ourselves: How do we bring critique without criticism? How do we sustain conversation without putting the burden on only the original poster? 5. "Dude, I don't read or speak Russian so I have nothing to say about the translation from the original." The design question we can ask ourselves: How do we get around the challenges of casual and virtual engagement; and the challenge of not knowing who this community is or if what I (each of us) can contribute will be valuable to the community. So this is why, for me, it's not so straightforward to say anyone can post. I'd love to see what other "risks" people have perceived. I'd also love to be part of doing something about addressing them, because I do think this forum has the potential to be an incredible community for more than just a handful of members. On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 12:35 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what he or she wishes and then click the Send button? This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is confusing to me. Maybe this is something only someone on the left can understand? If people want to post a comment, question, remark, new topic, etc, they should just do it. Who cares if it's not automatically received with open arms or agreement? Isn't that half the fun? Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing in academia? Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching that level come with the freedom to speak openly? As one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really counterproductive to me. Naively (I suppose), Anthony On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole > wrote: Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. I, too, have been thinking about the long history of xmca's inability to create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would conduct pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen the correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a discourse practice that discourages participation from those who are intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of recommendation for a scarce job. So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone else. The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought us the presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky and the tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are adept in, and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing educational practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a manner that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of desired pedagogical outcomes. Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did not spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and designs of its creators. At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, written in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of xlchc, its transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca authors received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely because of the issues being raised here for the past week). http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf [lchc.ucsd.edu] There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when LCHC tried to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other on a working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. A lot of smart, experienced, people tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, as we are witnessing. Time for the next generation to join the discussion. Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much. thanks for reading this far if you have! stay safe. take care mike ? I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who lament, xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind bias On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip > wrote: dear Everyone: thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that individually referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, i'm reminded that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, that i've noticed. only this time, the response is different in both quality and quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - which in my mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a newer and younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use of our shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on the spot - elicits the synonyms: embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - wither - show up. if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words of praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have wondered about that evolution." i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they do does." in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in social gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a person of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of their own comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of both white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. and one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that those who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points of view that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this should not be placed on those already socially marginalized. i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get their master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly complex topic. and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it was illuminating. phillip -- I[Angelus Novus]The Angel's View of History The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside. So organisms create the conditions of their own future which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XRu1x0yYwaiXZTQFK0bUkct2ScQUUvhEAsGrahqNvimMV9BxVm6-54OkZZyUOlBgZc4Waw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu [lchc.ucsd.edu]. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu [lchcautobio.ucsd.edu]. -- To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!XRu1x0yYwaiXZTQFK0bUkct2ScQUUvhEAsGrahqNvimMV9BxVm6-54OkZZyUOlAiJWQF8g$ -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/97f40908/attachment.html From bferholt@gmail.com Fri Nov 27 18:35:51 2020 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 21:35:51 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> Message-ID: Thank you for saying so, Zara. I have just finished a paper on what I call "Research-Life" -- a method based on the idea that just those studies that are so personal that we think that no one but the author would value them, the studies that we undertake so that we can keep living (not keep making a living, but keep surviving as ourselves in the lives that we imagine for ourselves), are what may be able to push our science to include key areas that it currently kills (emotion, etc.). (This is how I understand Luria's call to Romantic Science, but of course there are many ways into this idea.) Some people can publish and "succeed" in academia, but still some of their voices have been silenced along the way, and this is also a great loss to the collective work. I can't wait to read this paper. It sounds like it would be very valuable to me and other playworld scholars. We would want to read it and talk about it! Beth On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:05 PM Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: > Thank you for offering up a risk in this community, Beth. > > I feel this too. It might in fact be one of the biggest risks because I > experience this online and offline too (on teams in my work, in the > classroom, even in my extended family). Being met with silence has the > effect of making you feel as though your voice is not audible, does not > exist. Erasure. I hope we can do some restorative work on this forum (and > the other discourse communities we are in for that matter) so that we can > find, welcome, embrace (and retrieve) those lost voices. > > Side note, retrieving lost voice is a cultural practice in Zimbabwe. I > once worked on an article about that sensation of voicelessness but never > published it because it felt too deeply personal or like something > nobody would want to hear, talk about, or find valuable. > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 3:32 PM Beth Ferholt wrote: > >> Keeping at bay the deficit model takes a lot of time and energy, is all I >> mean. B. >> >> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:27 PM Beth Ferholt wrote: >> >>> Correction: We must of course fight in private and with a few >>> select supporters -- but not ONLY this way, the fighting for this cause >>> must also be demanded of all members -- and is there not a way to give some >>> kind of credit for this labor that works towards tenure and promotion (a >>> title?)? ... actually, that last is a serious question. Beth >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:10 PM Beth Ferholt wrote: >>> >>>> Zara invited other risks -- Thank you for asking us all! -- I would >>>> like to add: >>>> >>>> 6. "If I say something and there is only silence ... and then I say >>>> something else and there is only silence, again ... how will I remember >>>> that this is Not just the evidence I need to prove that I should have >>>> remained in another profession, where people understood me when I spoke?" >>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we sustain our >>>> collective work to help all members to hold at bay the pernicious deficit >>>> model, never thinking that this is a battle we each must fight in private >>>> and alone, or with a few select supporters? How do we help all of us to >>>> remember that this fight takes active and ongoing as well as collective >>>> work, and that for each success story against the odds we have lost 100's >>>> of voices -- and often the voices of those with the most valuable (as they >>>> are rare in the field) perspectives for the field? Can we each be >>>> supported as long as necessary as we "learn to ride this particular >>>> kind of bike" (or adjust the bike so that we can ride it), providing only >>>> that we have the desire to try? >>>> >>>> #7. ?? >>>> >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 5:37 PM Andy Blunden >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Wow! That is a really useful post, Zaza. I have bookmarked it. >>>>> >>>>> I think your suggestion to frame xmca in terms of "risk" is very >>>>> productive. >>>>> Thank you. >>>>> >>>>> andy >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> >>>>> Home Page >>>>> >>>>> On 28/11/2020 7:51 am, Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I follow a lot of the discussions on xmca but rarely post. Despite >>>>> many very warm invitations from Mike and others, I have only posted on this >>>>> forum 3 times since joining in 2014. I read about 80% of the threads. >>>>> >>>>> So to the question, "isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type..." >>>>> here's are my thoughts: >>>>> >>>>> I'm a millennial so I have been observing online discussion forum >>>>> blowouts since I was about 16. People who look like me (black, female, >>>>> immigrant) get trolled online all the time. I'm not saying xmca has trolls >>>>> but I've become conditioned to worry about the risks of posting in any >>>>> online forum. As a general rule it is safer not to get sucked in - to watch >>>>> but not to get blood on my hands. I am only an active poster in groups >>>>> where I trust the members and feel safe in, even when I don't know all the >>>>> members. So what I asked myself what is it about xmca that makes me feel >>>>> like I have to be super careful about what I post? What makes this group >>>>> feel "unsafe" or "toxic". In other words, what makes it feel *risky* >>>>> to post something on xmca? Below I've listed the 5 risks that I worry >>>>> about. There are more, certainly, but I picked just the first few to start >>>>> and paired them with some design questions I think we should be asking >>>>> about how to design the community we want here. >>>>> >>>>> 1. "What is the context for this post? I think I get it but are we >>>>> talking about the same thing?" >>>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves**:* What can we do to >>>>> provide better context, in a way that invites more members to add to an >>>>> original post? >>>>> >>>>> 2. "I'm only marginally familiar with this topic, I'm curious but I >>>>> won't ask questions but I don't have the energy to be "schooled" on this >>>>> today." *The design questions we can ask ourselves:* How can we be >>>>> argumentative, informative, without being toxic? What is the best way to >>>>> engage novices and experts in this topic? >>>>> >>>>> 3. "Who else is out there, reading this? I don't know who I'm talking >>>>> to except the 5 or so active members" >>>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves:* What can we do as a >>>>> community to learn more about each other, our work, and our domains of >>>>> focus or ways of applying CHAT. >>>>> >>>>> 4. "If I post this will it turn into a long and laborious (unpleasant) >>>>> email exchange? Am I ready for a fight in this space?" >>>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves:* How do we bring critique >>>>> without criticism? How do we sustain conversation without putting the >>>>> burden on only the original poster? >>>>> >>>>> 5. "Dude, I don't read or speak Russian so I have nothing to say about >>>>> the translation from the original." >>>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we get around the >>>>> challenges of casual and virtual engagement; and the challenge of not >>>>> knowing who this community is or if what I (each of us) can contribute will >>>>> be valuable to the community. >>>>> >>>>> So this is why, for me, it's not so straightforward to say anyone can >>>>> post. I'd love to see what other "risks" people have perceived. I'd also >>>>> love to be part of doing something about addressing them, because I do >>>>> think this forum has the potential to be an incredible community for more >>>>> than just a handful of members. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 12:35 PM Anthony Barra < >>>>> anthonymbarra@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what he or she wishes >>>>>> and then click the Send button? >>>>>> >>>>>> This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is confusing to >>>>>> me. >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe this is something only someone on the left can understand? >>>>>> >>>>>> If people want to post a comment, question, remark, new topic, etc, >>>>>> they should just do it. Who cares if it's not automatically received with >>>>>> open arms or agreement? Isn't that half the fun? >>>>>> >>>>>> Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing in academia? >>>>>> Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching that level come with the freedom >>>>>> to speak openly? As one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these >>>>>> pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really counterproductive to me. >>>>>> >>>>>> Naively (I suppose), >>>>>> >>>>>> Anthony >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. >>>>>>> I, too, have been thinking about the long history of >>>>>>> xmca's inability to create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn >>>>>>> the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would >>>>>>> conduct pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion >>>>>>> for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen the >>>>>>> correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know >>>>>>> with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to >>>>>>> enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a >>>>>>> discourse practice that discourages participation from those who are >>>>>>> intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some >>>>>>> senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of >>>>>>> recommendation for a scarce job. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone >>>>>>> else. The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, >>>>>>> covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought >>>>>>> us the presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky >>>>>>> and the >>>>>>> tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are adept >>>>>>> in, and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing educational >>>>>>> practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a >>>>>>> manner that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of >>>>>>> desired >>>>>>> pedagogical outcomes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did >>>>>>> not spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and >>>>>>> before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and designs >>>>>>> of its creators. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, >>>>>>> written in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of >>>>>>> xlchc, its >>>>>>> transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca >>>>>>> authors received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely >>>>>>> because of >>>>>>> the issues being raised here for the past week). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when LCHC >>>>>>> tried to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep >>>>>>> former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other on >>>>>>> a working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional >>>>>>> that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. A >>>>>>> lot of smart, experienced, people tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, as >>>>>>> we are witnessing. >>>>>>> Time for the next generation to join the discussion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> thanks for reading this far if you have! >>>>>>> stay safe. take care >>>>>>> mike ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who >>>>>>> lament, xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind >>>>>>> bias >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip < >>>>>>> Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> dear Everyone: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that >>>>>>>> individually referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, >>>>>>>> i'm reminded that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, >>>>>>>> that i've noticed. only this time, the response is different in both >>>>>>>> quality and quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - >>>>>>>> which in my mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a >>>>>>>> newer and younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use >>>>>>>> of our shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on >>>>>>>> the spot - elicits the synonyms: >>>>>>>> embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - >>>>>>>> wither - show up. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words >>>>>>>> of praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have >>>>>>>> wondered about that evolution." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they >>>>>>>> know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they >>>>>>>> do does." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in >>>>>>>> social gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a >>>>>>>> person of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of >>>>>>>> their own comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of >>>>>>>> both white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. >>>>>>>> and one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that >>>>>>>> those who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points >>>>>>>> of view that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this >>>>>>>> should not be placed on those already socially marginalized. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get >>>>>>>> their master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith >>>>>>>> Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography >>>>>>>> as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which >>>>>>>> Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back >>>>>>>> from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts >>>>>>>> with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read >>>>>>>> the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this >>>>>>>> was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students >>>>>>>> were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community >>>>>>>> they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly >>>>>>>> complex topic. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it >>>>>>>> was illuminating. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> phillip >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I[image: Angelus Novus] >>>>>>> The >>>>>>> Angel's View of History >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside. So >>>>>>> organisms create the conditions of their own future >>>>>>> which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!RRlsVVBkjhlYkgb6nqzS6gpOu4gZxlfS1RwjI_WYjQhGZS-_D9Kd4dQ60ZcZc5MY3aBq8Q$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>>>>>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!RRlsVVBkjhlYkgb6nqzS6gpOu4gZxlfS1RwjI_WYjQhGZS-_D9Kd4dQ60ZcZc5PBsCA37w$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) >>>> Associate Professor >>>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >>>> >>>> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center >>>> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping >>>> University >>>> >>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>>> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. >>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>>> Office: 2306 James Hall >>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) >>> Associate Professor >>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >>> >>> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center >>> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping >>> University >>> >>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. >>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>> Office: 2306 James Hall >>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>> >> >> >> -- >> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) >> Associate Professor >> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >> >> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center >> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping >> University >> >> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. >> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >> Office: 2306 James Hall >> 2900 Bedford Avenue >> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >> > > > -- > To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!RRlsVVBkjhlYkgb6nqzS6gpOu4gZxlfS1RwjI_WYjQhGZS-_D9Kd4dQ60ZcZc5PBsCA37w$ > > -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201127/45085c29/attachment-0001.html From bferholt@gmail.com Fri Nov 27 18:39:10 2020 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 21:39:10 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> Message-ID: My sincere apologies for the typo, Zaza. Beth On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:35 PM Beth Ferholt wrote: > Thank you for saying so, Zara. > > I have just finished a paper on what I call "Research-Life" -- a method > based on the idea that just those studies that are so personal that we > think that no one but the author would value them, the studies that we > undertake so that we can keep living (not keep making a living, but keep > surviving as ourselves in the lives that we imagine for ourselves), are > what may be able to push our science to include key areas that it currently > kills (emotion, etc.). (This is how I understand Luria's call to Romantic > Science, but of course there are many ways into this idea.) > > Some people can publish and "succeed" in academia, but still some of their > voices have been silenced along the way, and this is also a great loss to > the collective work. > > I can't wait to read this paper. It sounds like it would be very valuable > to me and other playworld scholars. We would want to read it and talk about > it! > > Beth > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:05 PM Zaza Kabayadondo < > zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Thank you for offering up a risk in this community, Beth. >> >> I feel this too. It might in fact be one of the biggest risks because I >> experience this online and offline too (on teams in my work, in the >> classroom, even in my extended family). Being met with silence has the >> effect of making you feel as though your voice is not audible, does not >> exist. Erasure. I hope we can do some restorative work on this forum (and >> the other discourse communities we are in for that matter) so that we can >> find, welcome, embrace (and retrieve) those lost voices. >> >> Side note, retrieving lost voice is a cultural practice in Zimbabwe. I >> once worked on an article about that sensation of voicelessness but never >> published it because it felt too deeply personal or like something >> nobody would want to hear, talk about, or find valuable. >> >> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 3:32 PM Beth Ferholt wrote: >> >>> Keeping at bay the deficit model takes a lot of time and energy, is all >>> I mean. B. >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:27 PM Beth Ferholt wrote: >>> >>>> Correction: We must of course fight in private and with a few >>>> select supporters -- but not ONLY this way, the fighting for this cause >>>> must also be demanded of all members -- and is there not a way to give some >>>> kind of credit for this labor that works towards tenure and promotion (a >>>> title?)? ... actually, that last is a serious question. Beth >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:10 PM Beth Ferholt >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Zara invited other risks -- Thank you for asking us all! -- I would >>>>> like to add: >>>>> >>>>> 6. "If I say something and there is only silence ... and then I say >>>>> something else and there is only silence, again ... how will I remember >>>>> that this is Not just the evidence I need to prove that I should have >>>>> remained in another profession, where people understood me when I spoke?" >>>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we sustain our >>>>> collective work to help all members to hold at bay the pernicious deficit >>>>> model, never thinking that this is a battle we each must fight in private >>>>> and alone, or with a few select supporters? How do we help all of us to >>>>> remember that this fight takes active and ongoing as well as collective >>>>> work, and that for each success story against the odds we have lost 100's >>>>> of voices -- and often the voices of those with the most valuable (as they >>>>> are rare in the field) perspectives for the field? Can we each be >>>>> supported as long as necessary as we "learn to ride this particular >>>>> kind of bike" (or adjust the bike so that we can ride it), providing only >>>>> that we have the desire to try? >>>>> >>>>> #7. ?? >>>>> >>>>> Beth >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 5:37 PM Andy Blunden >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Wow! That is a really useful post, Zaza. I have bookmarked it. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think your suggestion to frame xmca in terms of "risk" is very >>>>>> productive. >>>>>> Thank you. >>>>>> >>>>>> andy >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>> >>>>>> Home Page >>>>>> >>>>>> On 28/11/2020 7:51 am, Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I follow a lot of the discussions on xmca but rarely post. Despite >>>>>> many very warm invitations from Mike and others, I have only posted on this >>>>>> forum 3 times since joining in 2014. I read about 80% of the threads. >>>>>> >>>>>> So to the question, "isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type..." >>>>>> here's are my thoughts: >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm a millennial so I have been observing online discussion forum >>>>>> blowouts since I was about 16. People who look like me (black, female, >>>>>> immigrant) get trolled online all the time. I'm not saying xmca has trolls >>>>>> but I've become conditioned to worry about the risks of posting in any >>>>>> online forum. As a general rule it is safer not to get sucked in - to watch >>>>>> but not to get blood on my hands. I am only an active poster in groups >>>>>> where I trust the members and feel safe in, even when I don't know all the >>>>>> members. So what I asked myself what is it about xmca that makes me feel >>>>>> like I have to be super careful about what I post? What makes this group >>>>>> feel "unsafe" or "toxic". In other words, what makes it feel *risky* >>>>>> to post something on xmca? Below I've listed the 5 risks that I worry >>>>>> about. There are more, certainly, but I picked just the first few to start >>>>>> and paired them with some design questions I think we should be asking >>>>>> about how to design the community we want here. >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. "What is the context for this post? I think I get it but are we >>>>>> talking about the same thing?" >>>>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves**:* What can we do to >>>>>> provide better context, in a way that invites more members to add to an >>>>>> original post? >>>>>> >>>>>> 2. "I'm only marginally familiar with this topic, I'm curious but I >>>>>> won't ask questions but I don't have the energy to be "schooled" on this >>>>>> today." *The design questions we can ask ourselves:* How can we be >>>>>> argumentative, informative, without being toxic? What is the best way to >>>>>> engage novices and experts in this topic? >>>>>> >>>>>> 3. "Who else is out there, reading this? I don't know who I'm talking >>>>>> to except the 5 or so active members" >>>>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves:* What can we do as a >>>>>> community to learn more about each other, our work, and our domains of >>>>>> focus or ways of applying CHAT. >>>>>> >>>>>> 4. "If I post this will it turn into a long and laborious >>>>>> (unpleasant) email exchange? Am I ready for a fight in this space?" >>>>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves:* How do we bring critique >>>>>> without criticism? How do we sustain conversation without putting the >>>>>> burden on only the original poster? >>>>>> >>>>>> 5. "Dude, I don't read or speak Russian so I have nothing to say >>>>>> about the translation from the original." >>>>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we get around the >>>>>> challenges of casual and virtual engagement; and the challenge of not >>>>>> knowing who this community is or if what I (each of us) can contribute will >>>>>> be valuable to the community. >>>>>> >>>>>> So this is why, for me, it's not so straightforward to say anyone can >>>>>> post. I'd love to see what other "risks" people have perceived. I'd also >>>>>> love to be part of doing something about addressing them, because I do >>>>>> think this forum has the potential to be an incredible community for more >>>>>> than just a handful of members. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 12:35 PM Anthony Barra < >>>>>> anthonymbarra@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what he or she >>>>>>> wishes and then click the Send button? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is confusing to >>>>>>> me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe this is something only someone on the left can understand? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If people want to post a comment, question, remark, new topic, etc, >>>>>>> they should just do it. Who cares if it's not automatically received with >>>>>>> open arms or agreement? Isn't that half the fun? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing in academia? >>>>>>> Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching that level come with the freedom >>>>>>> to speak openly? As one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these >>>>>>> pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really counterproductive to me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Naively (I suppose), >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anthony >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. >>>>>>>> I, too, have been thinking about the long history of >>>>>>>> xmca's inability to create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn >>>>>>>> the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would >>>>>>>> conduct pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion >>>>>>>> for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen the >>>>>>>> correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know >>>>>>>> with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to >>>>>>>> enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a >>>>>>>> discourse practice that discourages participation from those who >>>>>>>> are intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some >>>>>>>> senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of >>>>>>>> recommendation for a scarce job. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone >>>>>>>> else. The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, >>>>>>>> covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought >>>>>>>> us the presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky >>>>>>>> and the >>>>>>>> tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are adept >>>>>>>> in, and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing educational >>>>>>>> practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a >>>>>>>> manner that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of >>>>>>>> desired >>>>>>>> pedagogical outcomes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did >>>>>>>> not spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and >>>>>>>> before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and >>>>>>>> designs of its creators. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, >>>>>>>> written in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of >>>>>>>> xlchc, its >>>>>>>> transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca >>>>>>>> authors received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely >>>>>>>> because of >>>>>>>> the issues being raised here for the past week). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when >>>>>>>> LCHC tried to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep >>>>>>>> former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other >>>>>>>> on a working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional >>>>>>>> that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. A >>>>>>>> lot of smart, experienced, people tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, as >>>>>>>> we are witnessing. >>>>>>>> Time for the next generation to join the discussion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> thanks for reading this far if you have! >>>>>>>> stay safe. take care >>>>>>>> mike ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who >>>>>>>> lament, xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind >>>>>>>> bias >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip < >>>>>>>> Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> dear Everyone: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that >>>>>>>>> individually referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, >>>>>>>>> i'm reminded that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, >>>>>>>>> that i've noticed. only this time, the response is different in both >>>>>>>>> quality and quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - >>>>>>>>> which in my mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a >>>>>>>>> newer and younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use >>>>>>>>> of our shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on >>>>>>>>> the spot - elicits the synonyms: >>>>>>>>> embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - >>>>>>>>> wither - show up. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words >>>>>>>>> of praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have >>>>>>>>> wondered about that evolution." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently >>>>>>>>> they know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what >>>>>>>>> they do does." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in >>>>>>>>> social gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a >>>>>>>>> person of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of >>>>>>>>> their own comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of >>>>>>>>> both white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. >>>>>>>>> and one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that >>>>>>>>> those who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points >>>>>>>>> of view that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this >>>>>>>>> should not be placed on those already socially marginalized. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get >>>>>>>>> their master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith >>>>>>>>> Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography >>>>>>>>> as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which >>>>>>>>> Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back >>>>>>>>> from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts >>>>>>>>> with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read >>>>>>>>> the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this >>>>>>>>> was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students >>>>>>>>> were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community >>>>>>>>> they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly >>>>>>>>> complex topic. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - >>>>>>>>> it was illuminating. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> phillip >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I[image: Angelus Novus] >>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>> Angel's View of History >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside. So >>>>>>>> organisms create the conditions of their own future >>>>>>>> which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QDConlk0sWKhLcotV9zDu-veOJ7zZ55yKNflRBXRN1-6YeuUsst2Ynjd0ogOVJ4exE4OKQ$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>>>>>>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!QDConlk0sWKhLcotV9zDu-veOJ7zZ55yKNflRBXRN1-6YeuUsst2Ynjd0ogOVJ7CibuvqQ$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) >>>>> Associate Professor >>>>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >>>>> >>>>> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center >>>>> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping >>>>> University >>>>> >>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>>>> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. >>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>>>> Office: 2306 James Hall >>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) >>>> Associate Professor >>>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >>>> >>>> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center >>>> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping >>>> University >>>> >>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>>> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. >>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>>> Office: 2306 James Hall >>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) >>> Associate Professor >>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >>> >>> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center >>> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping >>> University >>> >>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. >>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>> Office: 2306 James Hall >>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>> >> >> >> -- >> To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!QDConlk0sWKhLcotV9zDu-veOJ7zZ55yKNflRBXRN1-6YeuUsst2Ynjd0ogOVJ7CibuvqQ$ >> >> > > > -- > Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) > Associate Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center > Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping > University > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Office: 2306 James Hall > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201127/22f5d10d/attachment.html From bferholt@gmail.com Fri Nov 27 18:40:52 2020 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 21:40:52 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> Message-ID: And I see that above that I made the same mistake, so a mistake not a typo, I am even more sorry! Beth On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:39 PM Beth Ferholt wrote: > My sincere apologies for the typo, Zaza. Beth > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:35 PM Beth Ferholt wrote: > >> Thank you for saying so, Zara. >> >> I have just finished a paper on what I call "Research-Life" -- a method >> based on the idea that just those studies that are so personal that we >> think that no one but the author would value them, the studies that we >> undertake so that we can keep living (not keep making a living, but keep >> surviving as ourselves in the lives that we imagine for ourselves), are >> what may be able to push our science to include key areas that it currently >> kills (emotion, etc.). (This is how I understand Luria's call to Romantic >> Science, but of course there are many ways into this idea.) >> >> Some people can publish and "succeed" in academia, but still some of >> their voices have been silenced along the way, and this is also a great >> loss to the collective work. >> >> I can't wait to read this paper. It sounds like it would be very >> valuable to me and other playworld scholars. We would want to read it >> and talk about it! >> >> Beth >> >> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:05 PM Zaza Kabayadondo < >> zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Thank you for offering up a risk in this community, Beth. >>> >>> I feel this too. It might in fact be one of the biggest risks because I >>> experience this online and offline too (on teams in my work, in the >>> classroom, even in my extended family). Being met with silence has the >>> effect of making you feel as though your voice is not audible, does not >>> exist. Erasure. I hope we can do some restorative work on this forum (and >>> the other discourse communities we are in for that matter) so that we can >>> find, welcome, embrace (and retrieve) those lost voices. >>> >>> Side note, retrieving lost voice is a cultural practice in Zimbabwe. I >>> once worked on an article about that sensation of voicelessness but never >>> published it because it felt too deeply personal or like something >>> nobody would want to hear, talk about, or find valuable. >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 3:32 PM Beth Ferholt wrote: >>> >>>> Keeping at bay the deficit model takes a lot of time and energy, is all >>>> I mean. B. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:27 PM Beth Ferholt >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Correction: We must of course fight in private and with a few >>>>> select supporters -- but not ONLY this way, the fighting for this cause >>>>> must also be demanded of all members -- and is there not a way to give some >>>>> kind of credit for this labor that works towards tenure and promotion (a >>>>> title?)? ... actually, that last is a serious question. Beth >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:10 PM Beth Ferholt >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Zara invited other risks -- Thank you for asking us all! -- I would >>>>>> like to add: >>>>>> >>>>>> 6. "If I say something and there is only silence ... and then I say >>>>>> something else and there is only silence, again ... how will I remember >>>>>> that this is Not just the evidence I need to prove that I should have >>>>>> remained in another profession, where people understood me when I spoke?" >>>>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we sustain our >>>>>> collective work to help all members to hold at bay the pernicious deficit >>>>>> model, never thinking that this is a battle we each must fight in private >>>>>> and alone, or with a few select supporters? How do we help all of us to >>>>>> remember that this fight takes active and ongoing as well as collective >>>>>> work, and that for each success story against the odds we have lost 100's >>>>>> of voices -- and often the voices of those with the most valuable (as they >>>>>> are rare in the field) perspectives for the field? Can we each be >>>>>> supported as long as necessary as we "learn to ride this particular >>>>>> kind of bike" (or adjust the bike so that we can ride it), providing only >>>>>> that we have the desire to try? >>>>>> >>>>>> #7. ?? >>>>>> >>>>>> Beth >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 5:37 PM Andy Blunden >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Wow! That is a really useful post, Zaza. I have bookmarked it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think your suggestion to frame xmca in terms of "risk" is very >>>>>>> productive. >>>>>>> Thank you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> andy >>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Home Page >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 28/11/2020 7:51 am, Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I follow a lot of the discussions on xmca but rarely post. Despite >>>>>>> many very warm invitations from Mike and others, I have only posted on this >>>>>>> forum 3 times since joining in 2014. I read about 80% of the threads. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So to the question, "isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type..." >>>>>>> here's are my thoughts: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm a millennial so I have been observing online discussion forum >>>>>>> blowouts since I was about 16. People who look like me (black, female, >>>>>>> immigrant) get trolled online all the time. I'm not saying xmca has trolls >>>>>>> but I've become conditioned to worry about the risks of posting in any >>>>>>> online forum. As a general rule it is safer not to get sucked in - to watch >>>>>>> but not to get blood on my hands. I am only an active poster in groups >>>>>>> where I trust the members and feel safe in, even when I don't know all the >>>>>>> members. So what I asked myself what is it about xmca that makes me feel >>>>>>> like I have to be super careful about what I post? What makes this group >>>>>>> feel "unsafe" or "toxic". In other words, what makes it feel *risky* >>>>>>> to post something on xmca? Below I've listed the 5 risks that I worry >>>>>>> about. There are more, certainly, but I picked just the first few to start >>>>>>> and paired them with some design questions I think we should be asking >>>>>>> about how to design the community we want here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1. "What is the context for this post? I think I get it but are we >>>>>>> talking about the same thing?" >>>>>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves**:* What can we do to >>>>>>> provide better context, in a way that invites more members to add to an >>>>>>> original post? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2. "I'm only marginally familiar with this topic, I'm curious but I >>>>>>> won't ask questions but I don't have the energy to be "schooled" on this >>>>>>> today." *The design questions we can ask ourselves:* How can we be >>>>>>> argumentative, informative, without being toxic? What is the best way to >>>>>>> engage novices and experts in this topic? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 3. "Who else is out there, reading this? I don't know who I'm >>>>>>> talking to except the 5 or so active members" >>>>>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves:* What can we do as a >>>>>>> community to learn more about each other, our work, and our domains of >>>>>>> focus or ways of applying CHAT. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 4. "If I post this will it turn into a long and laborious >>>>>>> (unpleasant) email exchange? Am I ready for a fight in this space?" >>>>>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves:* How do we bring >>>>>>> critique without criticism? How do we sustain conversation without putting >>>>>>> the burden on only the original poster? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 5. "Dude, I don't read or speak Russian so I have nothing to say >>>>>>> about the translation from the original." >>>>>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we get around >>>>>>> the challenges of casual and virtual engagement; and the challenge of not >>>>>>> knowing who this community is or if what I (each of us) can contribute will >>>>>>> be valuable to the community. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So this is why, for me, it's not so straightforward to say >>>>>>> anyone can post. I'd love to see what other "risks" people have perceived. >>>>>>> I'd also love to be part of doing something about addressing them, because >>>>>>> I do think this forum has the potential to be an incredible community for >>>>>>> more than just a handful of members. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 12:35 PM Anthony Barra < >>>>>>> anthonymbarra@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what he or she >>>>>>>> wishes and then click the Send button? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is confusing to >>>>>>>> me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maybe this is something only someone on the left can understand? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If people want to post a comment, question, remark, new topic, etc, >>>>>>>> they should just do it. Who cares if it's not automatically received with >>>>>>>> open arms or agreement? Isn't that half the fun? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing in academia? >>>>>>>> Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching that level come with the freedom >>>>>>>> to speak openly? As one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these >>>>>>>> pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really counterproductive to me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Naively (I suppose), >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anthony >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. >>>>>>>>> I, too, have been thinking about the long history of >>>>>>>>> xmca's inability to create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn >>>>>>>>> the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would >>>>>>>>> conduct pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion >>>>>>>>> for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen >>>>>>>>> the correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know >>>>>>>>> with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to >>>>>>>>> enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a >>>>>>>>> discourse practice that discourages participation from those who >>>>>>>>> are intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some >>>>>>>>> senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of >>>>>>>>> recommendation for a scarce job. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone >>>>>>>>> else. The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, >>>>>>>>> covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought >>>>>>>>> us the presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky >>>>>>>>> and the >>>>>>>>> tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are >>>>>>>>> adept in, and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing >>>>>>>>> educational >>>>>>>>> practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a >>>>>>>>> manner that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of >>>>>>>>> desired >>>>>>>>> pedagogical outcomes. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did >>>>>>>>> not spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and >>>>>>>>> before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and >>>>>>>>> designs of its creators. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, >>>>>>>>> written in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of >>>>>>>>> xlchc, its >>>>>>>>> transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca >>>>>>>>> authors received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely >>>>>>>>> because of >>>>>>>>> the issues being raised here for the past week). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when >>>>>>>>> LCHC tried to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep >>>>>>>>> former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other >>>>>>>>> on a working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional >>>>>>>>> that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. >>>>>>>>> A lot of smart, experienced, people tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, >>>>>>>>> as we are witnessing. >>>>>>>>> Time for the next generation to join the discussion. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> thanks for reading this far if you have! >>>>>>>>> stay safe. take care >>>>>>>>> mike ? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who >>>>>>>>> lament, xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind >>>>>>>>> bias >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip < >>>>>>>>> Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> dear Everyone: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that >>>>>>>>>> individually referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, >>>>>>>>>> i'm reminded that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, >>>>>>>>>> that i've noticed. only this time, the response is different in both >>>>>>>>>> quality and quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - >>>>>>>>>> which in my mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a >>>>>>>>>> newer and younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use >>>>>>>>>> of our shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone >>>>>>>>>> on the spot - elicits the synonyms: >>>>>>>>>> embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush >>>>>>>>>> - wither - show up. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't >>>>>>>>>> words of praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have >>>>>>>>>> wondered about that evolution." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently >>>>>>>>>> they know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what >>>>>>>>>> they do does." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in >>>>>>>>>> social gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a >>>>>>>>>> person of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of >>>>>>>>>> their own comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of >>>>>>>>>> both white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. >>>>>>>>>> and one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that >>>>>>>>>> those who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points >>>>>>>>>> of view that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this >>>>>>>>>> should not be placed on those already socially marginalized. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get >>>>>>>>>> their master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith >>>>>>>>>> Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography >>>>>>>>>> as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which >>>>>>>>>> Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back >>>>>>>>>> from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts >>>>>>>>>> with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read >>>>>>>>>> the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this >>>>>>>>>> was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students >>>>>>>>>> were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community >>>>>>>>>> they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly >>>>>>>>>> complex topic. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - >>>>>>>>>> it was illuminating. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> phillip >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I[image: Angelus Novus] >>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>> Angel's View of History >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside. So >>>>>>>>> organisms create the conditions of their own future >>>>>>>>> which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TyeaYc94FWjCx7pDObGW1B8zd_459KidwSX9s5pjRs06pDi5Hnum9KjAjT3YzNgKM5bS_g$ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>>>>>>>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!TyeaYc94FWjCx7pDObGW1B8zd_459KidwSX9s5pjRs06pDi5Hnum9KjAjT3YzNjBvy8qXg$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) >>>>>> Associate Professor >>>>>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >>>>>> >>>>>> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center >>>>>> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping >>>>>> University >>>>>> >>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>>>>> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. >>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>>>>> Office: 2306 James Hall >>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) >>>>> Associate Professor >>>>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >>>>> >>>>> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center >>>>> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping >>>>> University >>>>> >>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>>>> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. >>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>>>> Office: 2306 James Hall >>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) >>>> Associate Professor >>>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >>>> >>>> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center >>>> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping >>>> University >>>> >>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>>> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. >>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>>> Office: 2306 James Hall >>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!TyeaYc94FWjCx7pDObGW1B8zd_459KidwSX9s5pjRs06pDi5Hnum9KjAjT3YzNjBvy8qXg$ >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) >> Associate Professor >> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >> >> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center >> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping >> University >> >> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. >> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >> Office: 2306 James Hall >> 2900 Bedford Avenue >> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >> > > > -- > Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) > Associate Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center > Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping > University > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Office: 2306 James Hall > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201127/839db9f6/attachment.html From to.ksenia@gmail.com Fri Nov 27 22:00:08 2020 From: to.ksenia@gmail.com (Ksenia A. Korobkova) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 22:00:08 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> Message-ID: Hi Zaza, Just wanted to respond with gratitude toward your reframing and your sharing. This discussion went from breaks, territorialism, and attempts to repair to conversations about redesigning futures, and for hope, and equity. My parallel self that could stay/return to academia would find your voice retrieval article very valuable and my current not-academic self would love to hear it. Good vibes and thanks your way, Ksenia On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:05 PM Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: > Thank you for offering up a risk in this community, Beth. > > I feel this too. It might in fact be one of the biggest risks because I > experience this online and offline too (on teams in my work, in the > classroom, even in my extended family). Being met with silence has the > effect of making you feel as though your voice is not audible, does not > exist. Erasure. I hope we can do some restorative work on this forum (and > the other discourse communities we are in for that matter) so that we can > find, welcome, embrace (and retrieve) those lost voices. > > Side note, retrieving lost voice is a cultural practice in Zimbabwe. I > once worked on an article about that sensation of voicelessness but never > published it because it felt too deeply personal or like something > nobody would want to hear, talk about, or find valuable. > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 3:32 PM Beth Ferholt wrote: > >> Keeping at bay the deficit model takes a lot of time and energy, is all I >> mean. B. >> >> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:27 PM Beth Ferholt wrote: >> >>> Correction: We must of course fight in private and with a few >>> select supporters -- but not ONLY this way, the fighting for this cause >>> must also be demanded of all members -- and is there not a way to give some >>> kind of credit for this labor that works towards tenure and promotion (a >>> title?)? ... actually, that last is a serious question. Beth >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:10 PM Beth Ferholt wrote: >>> >>>> Zara invited other risks -- Thank you for asking us all! -- I would >>>> like to add: >>>> >>>> 6. "If I say something and there is only silence ... and then I say >>>> something else and there is only silence, again ... how will I remember >>>> that this is Not just the evidence I need to prove that I should have >>>> remained in another profession, where people understood me when I spoke?" >>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we sustain our >>>> collective work to help all members to hold at bay the pernicious deficit >>>> model, never thinking that this is a battle we each must fight in private >>>> and alone, or with a few select supporters? How do we help all of us to >>>> remember that this fight takes active and ongoing as well as collective >>>> work, and that for each success story against the odds we have lost 100's >>>> of voices -- and often the voices of those with the most valuable (as they >>>> are rare in the field) perspectives for the field? Can we each be >>>> supported as long as necessary as we "learn to ride this particular >>>> kind of bike" (or adjust the bike so that we can ride it), providing only >>>> that we have the desire to try? >>>> >>>> #7. ?? >>>> >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 5:37 PM Andy Blunden >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Wow! That is a really useful post, Zaza. I have bookmarked it. >>>>> >>>>> I think your suggestion to frame xmca in terms of "risk" is very >>>>> productive. >>>>> Thank you. >>>>> >>>>> andy >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> >>>>> Home Page >>>>> >>>>> On 28/11/2020 7:51 am, Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I follow a lot of the discussions on xmca but rarely post. Despite >>>>> many very warm invitations from Mike and others, I have only posted on this >>>>> forum 3 times since joining in 2014. I read about 80% of the threads. >>>>> >>>>> So to the question, "isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type..." >>>>> here's are my thoughts: >>>>> >>>>> I'm a millennial so I have been observing online discussion forum >>>>> blowouts since I was about 16. People who look like me (black, female, >>>>> immigrant) get trolled online all the time. I'm not saying xmca has trolls >>>>> but I've become conditioned to worry about the risks of posting in any >>>>> online forum. As a general rule it is safer not to get sucked in - to watch >>>>> but not to get blood on my hands. I am only an active poster in groups >>>>> where I trust the members and feel safe in, even when I don't know all the >>>>> members. So what I asked myself what is it about xmca that makes me feel >>>>> like I have to be super careful about what I post? What makes this group >>>>> feel "unsafe" or "toxic". In other words, what makes it feel *risky* >>>>> to post something on xmca? Below I've listed the 5 risks that I worry >>>>> about. There are more, certainly, but I picked just the first few to start >>>>> and paired them with some design questions I think we should be asking >>>>> about how to design the community we want here. >>>>> >>>>> 1. "What is the context for this post? I think I get it but are we >>>>> talking about the same thing?" >>>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves**:* What can we do to >>>>> provide better context, in a way that invites more members to add to an >>>>> original post? >>>>> >>>>> 2. "I'm only marginally familiar with this topic, I'm curious but I >>>>> won't ask questions but I don't have the energy to be "schooled" on this >>>>> today." *The design questions we can ask ourselves:* How can we be >>>>> argumentative, informative, without being toxic? What is the best way to >>>>> engage novices and experts in this topic? >>>>> >>>>> 3. "Who else is out there, reading this? I don't know who I'm talking >>>>> to except the 5 or so active members" >>>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves:* What can we do as a >>>>> community to learn more about each other, our work, and our domains of >>>>> focus or ways of applying CHAT. >>>>> >>>>> 4. "If I post this will it turn into a long and laborious (unpleasant) >>>>> email exchange? Am I ready for a fight in this space?" >>>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves:* How do we bring critique >>>>> without criticism? How do we sustain conversation without putting the >>>>> burden on only the original poster? >>>>> >>>>> 5. "Dude, I don't read or speak Russian so I have nothing to say about >>>>> the translation from the original." >>>>> *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we get around the >>>>> challenges of casual and virtual engagement; and the challenge of not >>>>> knowing who this community is or if what I (each of us) can contribute will >>>>> be valuable to the community. >>>>> >>>>> So this is why, for me, it's not so straightforward to say anyone can >>>>> post. I'd love to see what other "risks" people have perceived. I'd also >>>>> love to be part of doing something about addressing them, because I do >>>>> think this forum has the potential to be an incredible community for more >>>>> than just a handful of members. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 12:35 PM Anthony Barra < >>>>> anthonymbarra@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what he or she wishes >>>>>> and then click the Send button? >>>>>> >>>>>> This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is confusing to >>>>>> me. >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe this is something only someone on the left can understand? >>>>>> >>>>>> If people want to post a comment, question, remark, new topic, etc, >>>>>> they should just do it. Who cares if it's not automatically received with >>>>>> open arms or agreement? Isn't that half the fun? >>>>>> >>>>>> Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing in academia? >>>>>> Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching that level come with the freedom >>>>>> to speak openly? As one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these >>>>>> pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really counterproductive to me. >>>>>> >>>>>> Naively (I suppose), >>>>>> >>>>>> Anthony >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. >>>>>>> I, too, have been thinking about the long history of >>>>>>> xmca's inability to create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn >>>>>>> the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would >>>>>>> conduct pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion >>>>>>> for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen the >>>>>>> correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know >>>>>>> with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to >>>>>>> enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a >>>>>>> discourse practice that discourages participation from those who are >>>>>>> intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some >>>>>>> senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of >>>>>>> recommendation for a scarce job. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone >>>>>>> else. The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, >>>>>>> covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought >>>>>>> us the presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky >>>>>>> and the >>>>>>> tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are adept >>>>>>> in, and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing educational >>>>>>> practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a >>>>>>> manner that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of >>>>>>> desired >>>>>>> pedagogical outcomes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did >>>>>>> not spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and >>>>>>> before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and designs >>>>>>> of its creators. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, >>>>>>> written in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of >>>>>>> xlchc, its >>>>>>> transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca >>>>>>> authors received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely >>>>>>> because of >>>>>>> the issues being raised here for the past week). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when LCHC >>>>>>> tried to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep >>>>>>> former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other on >>>>>>> a working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional >>>>>>> that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. A >>>>>>> lot of smart, experienced, people tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, as >>>>>>> we are witnessing. >>>>>>> Time for the next generation to join the discussion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> thanks for reading this far if you have! >>>>>>> stay safe. take care >>>>>>> mike ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who >>>>>>> lament, xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind >>>>>>> bias >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip < >>>>>>> Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> dear Everyone: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that >>>>>>>> individually referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, >>>>>>>> i'm reminded that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, >>>>>>>> that i've noticed. only this time, the response is different in both >>>>>>>> quality and quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - >>>>>>>> which in my mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a >>>>>>>> newer and younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use >>>>>>>> of our shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on >>>>>>>> the spot - elicits the synonyms: >>>>>>>> embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - >>>>>>>> wither - show up. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words >>>>>>>> of praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have >>>>>>>> wondered about that evolution." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they >>>>>>>> know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they >>>>>>>> do does." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in >>>>>>>> social gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a >>>>>>>> person of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of >>>>>>>> their own comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of >>>>>>>> both white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. >>>>>>>> and one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that >>>>>>>> those who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points >>>>>>>> of view that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this >>>>>>>> should not be placed on those already socially marginalized. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get >>>>>>>> their master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith >>>>>>>> Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography >>>>>>>> as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which >>>>>>>> Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back >>>>>>>> from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts >>>>>>>> with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read >>>>>>>> the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this >>>>>>>> was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students >>>>>>>> were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community >>>>>>>> they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly >>>>>>>> complex topic. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it >>>>>>>> was illuminating. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> phillip >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I[image: Angelus Novus] >>>>>>> The >>>>>>> Angel's View of History >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside. So >>>>>>> organisms create the conditions of their own future >>>>>>> which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Q58Y9APIphxhBMIAwlR1_uBBo9SeeST0di8Nyz0l7X70tpkUoq6IBl12JS1-Sjl1o3vvBg$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>>>>>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!Q58Y9APIphxhBMIAwlR1_uBBo9SeeST0di8Nyz0l7X70tpkUoq6IBl12JS1-SjlAYZ2Xww$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) >>>> Associate Professor >>>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >>>> >>>> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center >>>> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping >>>> University >>>> >>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>>> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. >>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>>> Office: 2306 James Hall >>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) >>> Associate Professor >>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >>> >>> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center >>> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping >>> University >>> >>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. >>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>> Office: 2306 James Hall >>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>> >> >> >> -- >> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) >> Associate Professor >> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >> >> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center >> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping >> University >> >> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. >> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >> Office: 2306 James Hall >> 2900 Bedford Avenue >> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >> > > > -- > To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!Q58Y9APIphxhBMIAwlR1_uBBo9SeeST0di8Nyz0l7X70tpkUoq6IBl12JS1-SjlAYZ2Xww$ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201127/b1031aec/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sat Nov 28 00:59:31 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 08:59:31 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: keeping eyes open In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> Message-ID: > > > P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject matter > of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the *development of human > higher psychological functions*. (How that is "left," "right," or > otherwise is beyond me.) > Political propensities can be discerned across some (adult) developmental stages. Huw > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/d062d2fd/attachment.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Sat Nov 28 02:24:06 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 10:24:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: keeping eyes open In-Reply-To: <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org>, , <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> Message-ID: <1E8617E7-E01F-4BC4-964F-49A71C17905B@ils.uio.no> Anna, I did respond to that call and have raised the issue several times, but to not much effect. I ha Sent from my iPhone On 28 Nov 2020, at 01:36, Stetsenko, Anna wrote: ? There is always background and history to everything. Things were clear at least since this exchange (below), are our eyes open?? Read back from that June 7th? email, Michael Glassman writing regarding Anthony Barra?'s posts. There was no appropriate action taken then and so things have been dragging on. Glassman might have quit too after that. And also - there should be no doubt that the origins of CHAT have to do with the left, there is no other way to understand it other than from the left in political terms (even if Vygotsky has been domesticated since his days). No surprise, theory is never neutral. There is politics in this recent episode of course too, through and through. On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael > wrote: What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being used to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. Michael On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael > wrote: ... What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. Michael? Anna Stetsenko, PhD Professor Ph.D. Programs in Psychology/Human Development and in Urban Education The Graduate Center of The City University of New York 365 5th Avenue, New York, NY 10016 https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://annastetsenko.ws.gc.cuny.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!Xl_XY-KotCCfzrBYTBN5G9F35ltOEfZ3BKqzuKc06V-5ndIOShzZ5eoR9wk-9Ju3lSdNCA$ visit https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.academia.edu__;!!Mih3wA!Xl_XY-KotCCfzrBYTBN5G9F35ltOEfZ3BKqzuKc06V-5ndIOShzZ5eoR9wk-9JvOpYjc8g$ for my recent publications ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Beth Ferholt Sent: Friday, November 27, 2020 6:10 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? Zara invited other risks -- Thank you for asking us all! -- I would like to add: 6. "If I say something and there is only silence ... and then I say something else and there is only silence, again ... how will I remember that this is Not just the evidence I need to prove that I should have remained in another profession, where people understood me when I spoke?" The design question we can ask ourselves: How do we sustain our collective work to help all members to hold at bay the pernicious deficit model, never thinking that this is a battle we each must fight in private and alone, or with a few select supporters? How do we help all of us to remember that this fight takes active and ongoing as well as collective work, and that for each success story against the odds we have lost 100's of voices -- and often the voices of those with the most valuable (as they are rare in the field) perspectives for the field? Can we each be supported as long as necessary as we "learn to ride this particular kind of bike" (or adjust the bike so that we can ride it), providing only that we have the desire to try? #7. ?? Beth On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 5:37 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Wow! That is a really useful post, Zaza. I have bookmarked it. I think your suggestion to frame xmca in terms of "risk" is very productive. Thank you. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 28/11/2020 7:51 am, Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: I follow a lot of the discussions on xmca but rarely post. Despite many very warm invitations from Mike and others, I have only posted on this forum 3 times since joining in 2014. I read about 80% of the threads. So to the question, "isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type..." here's are my thoughts: I'm a millennial so I have been observing online discussion forum blowouts since I was about 16. People who look like me (black, female, immigrant) get trolled online all the time. I'm not saying xmca has trolls but I've become conditioned to worry about the risks of posting in any online forum. As a general rule it is safer not to get sucked in - to watch but not to get blood on my hands. I am only an active poster in groups where I trust the members and feel safe in, even when I don't know all the members. So what I asked myself what is it about xmca that makes me feel like I have to be super careful about what I post? What makes this group feel "unsafe" or "toxic". In other words, what makes it feel risky to post something on xmca? Below I've listed the 5 risks that I worry about. There are more, certainly, but I picked just the first few to start and paired them with some design questions I think we should be asking about how to design the community we want here. 1. "What is the context for this post? I think I get it but are we talking about the same thing?" The design question we can ask ourselves: What can we do to provide better context, in a way that invites more members to add to an original post? 2. "I'm only marginally familiar with this topic, I'm curious but I won't ask questions but I don't have the energy to be "schooled" on this today." The design questions we can ask ourselves: How can we be argumentative, informative, without being toxic? What is the best way to engage novices and experts in this topic? 3. "Who else is out there, reading this? I don't know who I'm talking to except the 5 or so active members" The design question we can ask ourselves: What can we do as a community to learn more about each other, our work, and our domains of focus or ways of applying CHAT. 4. "If I post this will it turn into a long and laborious (unpleasant) email exchange? Am I ready for a fight in this space?" The design question we can ask ourselves: How do we bring critique without criticism? How do we sustain conversation without putting the burden on only the original poster? 5. "Dude, I don't read or speak Russian so I have nothing to say about the translation from the original." The design question we can ask ourselves: How do we get around the challenges of casual and virtual engagement; and the challenge of not knowing who this community is or if what I (each of us) can contribute will be valuable to the community. So this is why, for me, it's not so straightforward to say anyone can post. I'd love to see what other "risks" people have perceived. I'd also love to be part of doing something about addressing them, because I do think this forum has the potential to be an incredible community for more than just a handful of members. On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 12:35 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what he or she wishes and then click the Send button? This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is confusing to me. Maybe this is something only someone on the left can understand? If people want to post a comment, question, remark, new topic, etc, they should just do it. Who cares if it's not automatically received with open arms or agreement? Isn't that half the fun? Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing in academia? Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching that level come with the freedom to speak openly? As one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really counterproductive to me. Naively (I suppose), Anthony On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole > wrote: Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. I, too, have been thinking about the long history of xmca's inability to create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would conduct pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen the correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a discourse practice that discourages participation from those who are intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of recommendation for a scarce job. So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone else. The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought us the presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky and the tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are adept in, and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing educational practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a manner that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of desired pedagogical outcomes. Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did not spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and designs of its creators. At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, written in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of xlchc, its transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca authors received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely because of the issues being raised here for the past week). http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf [lchc.ucsd.edu] There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when LCHC tried to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other on a working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. A lot of smart, experienced, people tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, as we are witnessing. Time for the next generation to join the discussion. Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much. thanks for reading this far if you have! stay safe. take care mike ? I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who lament, xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind bias On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip > wrote: dear Everyone: thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that individually referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, i'm reminded that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, that i've noticed. only this time, the response is different in both quality and quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - which in my mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a newer and younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use of our shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on the spot - elicits the synonyms: embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - wither - show up. if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words of praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have wondered about that evolution." i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they do does." in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in social gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a person of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of their own comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of both white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. and one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that those who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points of view that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this should not be placed on those already socially marginalized. i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get their master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly complex topic. and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it was illuminating. phillip -- I[Angelus Novus]The Angel's View of History The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside. So organisms create the conditions of their own future which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Xl_XY-KotCCfzrBYTBN5G9F35ltOEfZ3BKqzuKc06V-5ndIOShzZ5eoR9wk-9Jvtw2acsA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu [lchc.ucsd.edu]. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu [lchcautobio.ucsd.edu]. -- To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!Xl_XY-KotCCfzrBYTBN5G9F35ltOEfZ3BKqzuKc06V-5ndIOShzZ5eoR9wk-9JsR43oC6Q$ -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/aa581baa/attachment.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Sat Nov 28 02:31:20 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 10:31:20 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: keeping eyes open Message-ID: <2BD5247B-0489-4D8A-AA34-7901FC9AFF5A@uio.no> Anna, there were attempts at addressing that particular interaction you refer to, just to be clear that it was not ignored, but several of us have been less active since, and I personally think moderation should not come from one moderator, but from the collective, in ways like the ones we?ve been witnessing in recent posts by members who have otherwise not been heard often. Alfredo From: on behalf of "Stetsenko, Anna" Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Saturday, 28 November 2020 at 01:36 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] keeping eyes open There is always background and history to everything. Things were clear at least since this exchange (below), are our eyes open?? Read back from that June 7th? email, Michael Glassman writing regarding Anthony Barra?'s posts. There was no appropriate action taken then and so things have been dragging on. Glassman might have quit too after that. And also - there should be no doubt that the origins of CHAT have to do with the left, there is no other way to understand it other than from the left in political terms (even if Vygotsky has been domesticated since his days). No surprise, theory is never neutral. There is politics in this recent episode of course too, through and through. On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael > wrote: What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being used to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. Michael On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael > wrote: ... What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. Michael? Anna Stetsenko, PhD Professor Ph.D. Programs in Psychology/Human Development and in Urban Education The Graduate Center of The City University of New York 365 5th Avenue, New York, NY 10016 https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://annastetsenko.ws.gc.cuny.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!TM90g6qPc0Y-EedaV_YzV0BE54QLYY-Ew3wA0mzrmDEFSuy45U3CwuBQcSYVHHlBKjckiQ$ visit https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.academia.edu__;!!Mih3wA!TM90g6qPc0Y-EedaV_YzV0BE54QLYY-Ew3wA0mzrmDEFSuy45U3CwuBQcSYVHHkf0CjpqQ$ for my recent publications ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Beth Ferholt Sent: Friday, November 27, 2020 6:10 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? Zara invited other risks -- Thank you for asking us all! -- I would like to add: 6. "If I say something and there is only silence ... and then I say something else and there is only silence, again ... how will I remember that this is Not just the evidence I need to prove that I should have remained in another profession, where people understood me when I spoke?" The design question we can ask ourselves: How do we sustain our collective work to help all members to hold at bay the pernicious deficit model, never thinking that this is a battle we each must fight in private and alone, or with a few select supporters? How do we help all of us to remember that this fight takes active and ongoing as well as collective work, and that for each success story against the odds we have lost 100's of voices -- and often the voices of those with the most valuable (as they are rare in the field) perspectives for the field? Can we each be supported as long as necessary as we "learn to ride this particular kind of bike" (or adjust the bike so that we can ride it), providing only that we have the desire to try? #7. ?? Beth On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 5:37 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Wow! That is a really useful post, Zaza. I have bookmarked it. I think your suggestion to frame xmca in terms of "risk" is very productive. Thank you. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 28/11/2020 7:51 am, Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: I follow a lot of the discussions on xmca but rarely post. Despite many very warm invitations from Mike and others, I have only posted on this forum 3 times since joining in 2014. I read about 80% of the threads. So to the question, "isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type..." here's are my thoughts: I'm a millennial so I have been observing online discussion forum blowouts since I was about 16. People who look like me (black, female, immigrant) get trolled online all the time. I'm not saying xmca has trolls but I've become conditioned to worry about the risks of posting in any online forum. As a general rule it is safer not to get sucked in - to watch but not to get blood on my hands. I am only an active poster in groups where I trust the members and feel safe in, even when I don't know all the members. So what I asked myself what is it about xmca that makes me feel like I have to be super careful about what I post? What makes this group feel "unsafe" or "toxic". In other words, what makes it feel risky to post something on xmca? Below I've listed the 5 risks that I worry about. There are more, certainly, but I picked just the first few to start and paired them with some design questions I think we should be asking about how to design the community we want here. 1. "What is the context for this post? I think I get it but are we talking about the same thing?" The design question we can ask ourselves: What can we do to provide better context, in a way that invites more members to add to an original post? 2. "I'm only marginally familiar with this topic, I'm curious but I won't ask questions but I don't have the energy to be "schooled" on this today." The design questions we can ask ourselves: How can we be argumentative, informative, without being toxic? What is the best way to engage novices and experts in this topic? 3. "Who else is out there, reading this? I don't know who I'm talking to except the 5 or so active members" The design question we can ask ourselves: What can we do as a community to learn more about each other, our work, and our domains of focus or ways of applying CHAT. 4. "If I post this will it turn into a long and laborious (unpleasant) email exchange? Am I ready for a fight in this space?" The design question we can ask ourselves: How do we bring critique without criticism? How do we sustain conversation without putting the burden on only the original poster? 5. "Dude, I don't read or speak Russian so I have nothing to say about the translation from the original." The design question we can ask ourselves: How do we get around the challenges of casual and virtual engagement; and the challenge of not knowing who this community is or if what I (each of us) can contribute will be valuable to the community. So this is why, for me, it's not so straightforward to say anyone can post. I'd love to see what other "risks" people have perceived. I'd also love to be part of doing something about addressing them, because I do think this forum has the potential to be an incredible community for more than just a handful of members. On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 12:35 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what he or she wishes and then click the Send button? This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is confusing to me. Maybe this is something only someone on the left can understand? If people want to post a comment, question, remark, new topic, etc, they should just do it. Who cares if it's not automatically received with open arms or agreement? Isn't that half the fun? Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing in academia? Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching that level come with the freedom to speak openly? As one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really counterproductive to me. Naively (I suppose), Anthony On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole > wrote: Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. I, too, have been thinking about the long history of xmca's inability to create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would conduct pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen the correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a discourse practice that discourages participation from those who are intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of recommendation for a scarce job. So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone else. The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought us the presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky and the tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are adept in, and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing educational practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a manner that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of desired pedagogical outcomes. Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did not spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and designs of its creators. At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, written in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of xlchc, its transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca authors received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely because of the issues being raised here for the past week). http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf [lchc.ucsd.edu] There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when LCHC tried to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other on a working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. A lot of smart, experienced, people tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, as we are witnessing. Time for the next generation to join the discussion. Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much. thanks for reading this far if you have! stay safe. take care mike ? I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who lament, xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind bias On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip > wrote: dear Everyone: thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that individually referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, i'm reminded that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, that i've noticed. only this time, the response is different in both quality and quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - which in my mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a newer and younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use of our shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on the spot - elicits the synonyms: embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - wither - show up. if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words of praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have wondered about that evolution." i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they do does." in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in social gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a person of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of their own comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of both white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. and one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that those who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points of view that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this should not be placed on those already socially marginalized. i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get their master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly complex topic. and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it was illuminating. phillip -- I[Image removed by sender. Angelus Novus]The Angel's View of History The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside. So organisms create the conditions of their own future which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TM90g6qPc0Y-EedaV_YzV0BE54QLYY-Ew3wA0mzrmDEFSuy45U3CwuBQcSYVHHkFOAi0Lg$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu [lchc.ucsd.edu]. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu [lchcautobio.ucsd.edu]. -- To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!TM90g6qPc0Y-EedaV_YzV0BE54QLYY-Ew3wA0mzrmDEFSuy45U3CwuBQcSYVHHmOdjDqVQ$ -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/9d0727fd/attachment.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Sat Nov 28 02:38:29 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 10:38:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> Message-ID: <614A5A30-F3BC-4CF9-9770-DB1F6755AA37@uio.no> Anthony, it is very telling that you suggest that the issues being raised may only be understood by someone on the left. I believe that to understand the issues you just need to have been trying to live and participate in a context in which your color of skin, your language or background is not to your advantage. And not even that, many people who only speak English are white and live in North America get it, so you might get it too if you try. Alfredo From: on behalf of Anthony Barra Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Friday, 27 November 2020 at 21:38 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what he or she wishes and then click the Send button? This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is confusing to me. Maybe this is something only someone on the left can understand? If people want to post a comment, question, remark, new topic, etc, they should just do it. Who cares if it's not automatically received with open arms or agreement? Isn't that half the fun? Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing in academia? Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching that level come with the freedom to speak openly? As one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really counterproductive to me. Naively (I suppose), Anthony On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole > wrote: Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. I, too, have been thinking about the long history of xmca's inability to create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would conduct pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen the correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a discourse practice that discourages participation from those who are intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of recommendation for a scarce job. So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone else. The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought us the presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky and the tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are adept in, and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing educational practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a manner that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of desired pedagogical outcomes. Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did not spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and designs of its creators. At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, written in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of xlchc, its transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca authors received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely because of the issues being raised here for the past week). http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when LCHC tried to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other on a working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. A lot of smart, experienced, people tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, as we are witnessing. Time for the next generation to join the discussion. Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much. thanks for reading this far if you have! stay safe. take care mike ? I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who lament, xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind bias On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip > wrote: dear Everyone: thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that individually referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, i'm reminded that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, that i've noticed. only this time, the response is different in both quality and quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - which in my mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a newer and younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use of our shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on the spot - elicits the synonyms: embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - wither - show up. if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words of praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have wondered about that evolution." i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they do does." in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in social gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a person of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of their own comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of both white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. and one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that those who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points of view that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this should not be placed on those already socially marginalized. i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get their master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly complex topic. and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it was illuminating. phillip -- I[Image removed by sender. Angelus Novus]The Angel's View of History The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside. So organisms create the conditions of their own future which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!RszrZFTBiz87azzjI6LsOW440hHdBXOc3dB3IwANawawZ3W6UajtJB1wqeBpVQ4xjt0IZQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/458c77b4/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Nov 28 02:53:25 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 19:53:25 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: keeping eyes open In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> Message-ID: Zaza-- Dude, I don't really speak Russian either, as Nikolai and Anna will tell you (we only speak English). In my translation work I spend a lot more time on Google Translate than I would like, and that's why I burden the list with the queries you mention from time to time.. But I bet you speak Shona, or at least understand a little. So maybe you can help. I'm using this tune from the late great Tuku (Oliver Mtukudzi) in a class I am giving on sex education in Korea. I've been told that it doesn't really mention AIDS/HIV explicitly, and I get that--in fact, that's one of the reasons why I think it's useful for making certain parallels between pandemics and also discussing HPV and other issues I want to talk about. But I don't quite understand THIS verse--maybe you can help me? Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) So "Kana uinahwo utachiwana" means something like "If you get infected". But what is the reference to being raped by your roommate? On the subject of this thread. Like voter fraud, racism is a very serious charge, and the right has successfully made hay out of its seriousness. But as with voter fraud they have made even more hay out of rendering the charge unproveable, by removing its class content and rendering it a purely subjective inclination. This is why, I think (I hope), Arturo and others tend to raise this sort of thing in private off-list material that is so much at variance with their public writings that it fairly attracts the charge of hypocrisy or at least political timidity. After all, if you really suspect your interlocutor of racism, it's incumbent on you to keep your mouth and not just your eyes open. But you've got to put money where your mouth is: you have to provide some evidence (e.g. the paper that Harshad circulated on the list not too long ago). There are important scientific issues we need to discuss which are actually not unrelated to the one that Arturo was reacting to: whether you can accurately judge the language proficiency of a person by their race or national origin (as I have done in the second paragraph above). Not unrelated. But not identical to either, else I would not have written that paragraph. Here's an example. A dear colleague of mine, who like the vast majority of people in this country is not white and wouldn't know deficit linguistics from a surplus, has just written a paper on why Korean children tend to drop articles (i.e. "a" and "the"). He begins with the Chomskyan premise that all nouns must, according to universal human grammars which are hardwired at birth, be realized by "determiner phrases". What that means is that a noun phrase like "the cat" is not really about a cat--it's about "the", and the "the" is modified by "cat" (What kind of "the-ness" do you mean? The cat kind!) But it's THIS, and not Vygotskyan, Hallidayan, or Bernsteinian developmentalism, that is deficit linguistics. I won't say it is racist, because unfortunately that term has lost its scientific content and become nothing but a thought crime. But I will say that people who speak languages without articles or languages that emphasize nouns over determiners (e.g. Korean, Chinese, Russian) are not born with a birth defect (or "null spell out", as the Chomskyans say). Does Shona have articles or not? Do you know? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY0JssD8Hzc__;!!Mih3wA!QePX9kKiZVk8QmwFWMwYJblxjbu3_Pd2XeZXyOV1YZVr6VOrUaRfbuTZlUpgqPtWWiBSSw$ David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Book with Nikolai Veresov L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai Veresov See free downloadable pdf at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!QePX9kKiZVk8QmwFWMwYJblxjbu3_Pd2XeZXyOV1YZVr6VOrUaRfbuTZlUpgqPuZA6tlEA$ Forthcoming in 2020: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David Kellogg On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 6:02 PM Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject >> matter of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the *development of >> human higher psychological functions*. (How that is "left," "right," or >> otherwise is beyond me.) >> > > Political propensities can be discerned across some (adult) developmental > stages. > > Huw > >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/59d114d9/attachment.html From ajrajala@gmail.com Sat Nov 28 03:31:45 2020 From: ajrajala@gmail.com (Antti Rajala) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 13:31:45 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: keeping eyes open In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> Message-ID: David and all, In my reading, the issue at stake is that over a long time, many people experience the XMCA list as unwelcoming. Instead of refocusing the issue to something else, I believe we all have a responsibility to recognize it as a problem, carefully listen to these voices and be open to a change in the power dynamics of this list. Zaza, Beth, and others have made a good start in suggesting concrete principles of where to start. Antti On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 at 12:56, David Kellogg wrote: > Zaza-- > > Dude, I don't really speak Russian either, as Nikolai and Anna will tell > you (we only speak English). In my translation work I spend a lot more time > on Google Translate than I would like, and that's why I burden the list > with the queries you mention from time to time.. But I bet you speak Shona, > or at least understand a little. > > So maybe you can help. I'm using this tune from the late great Tuku > (Oliver Mtukudzi) in a class I am giving on sex education in Korea. I've > been told that it doesn't really mention AIDS/HIV explicitly, and I get > that--in fact, that's one of the reasons why I think it's useful for making > certain parallels between pandemics and also discussing HPV and other > issues I want to talk about. But I don't quite understand THIS verse--maybe > you can help me? > > Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > > So "Kana uinahwo utachiwana" means something like "If you get infected". > But what is the reference to being raped by your roommate? > > On the subject of this thread. Like voter fraud, racism is a very serious > charge, and the right has successfully made hay out of its seriousness. But > as with voter fraud they have made even more hay out of rendering the > charge unproveable, by removing its class content and rendering it a purely > subjective inclination. This is why, I think (I hope), Arturo and others > tend to raise this sort of thing in private off-list material that is so > much at variance with their public writings that it fairly attracts the > charge of hypocrisy or at least political timidity. After all, if you > really suspect your interlocutor of racism, it's incumbent on you to keep > your mouth and not just your eyes open. But you've got to put money where > your mouth is: you have to provide some evidence (e.g. the paper that > Harshad circulated on the list not too long ago). There are important > scientific issues we need to discuss which are actually not unrelated to > the one that Arturo was reacting to: whether you can accurately judge the > language proficiency of a person by their race or national origin (as I > have done in the second paragraph above). Not unrelated. But not identical > to either, else I would not have written that paragraph. > > Here's an example. A dear colleague of mine, who like the vast majority of > people in this country is not white and wouldn't know deficit linguistics > from a surplus, has just written a paper on why Korean children tend to > drop articles (i.e. "a" and "the"). He begins with the Chomskyan premise > that all nouns must, according to universal human grammars which are > hardwired at birth, be realized by "determiner phrases". What that means is > that a noun phrase like "the cat" is not really about a cat--it's about > "the", and the "the" is modified by "cat" (What kind of "the-ness" do you > mean? The cat kind!) > > But it's THIS, and not Vygotskyan, Hallidayan, or Bernsteinian > developmentalism, that is deficit linguistics. I won't say it is racist, > because unfortunately that term has lost its scientific content and become > nothing but a thought crime. But I will say that people who speak languages > without articles or languages that emphasize nouns over determiners (e.g. > Korean, Chinese, Russian) are not born with a birth defect (or "null spell > out", as the Chomskyans say). > > Does Shona have articles or not? Do you know? > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY0JssD8Hzc__;!!Mih3wA!X5yzp-WXUBfTr2IJpCguGrATMFGZIequuNGCFlT-1Fh7rMTkC91NjkTFaAINdzuPaIac7A$ > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Book with Nikolai Veresov > L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology > Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai > Veresov > See free downloadable pdf at: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!X5yzp-WXUBfTr2IJpCguGrATMFGZIequuNGCFlT-1Fh7rMTkC91NjkTFaAINdzvz-6u2oQ$ > > > Forthcoming in 2020: > L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. > Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David > Kellogg > > > On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 6:02 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >> >>> P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject >>> matter of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the *development of >>> human higher psychological functions*. (How that is "left," "right," or >>> otherwise is beyond me.) >>> >> >> Political propensities can be discerned across some (adult) developmental >> stages. >> >> Huw >> >>> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/6437a87a/attachment.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Sat Nov 28 06:05:51 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 14:05:51 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky is dangerous... Message-ID: <5FF73F3A-26E4-4763-B181-9C1D03F1BB66@uio.no> Anthony, I was not aware that the conversation had continued in this tone (chain below), with suggestions of you leaving. It was not my aim to add wood to that fire when I referred to your allusion to the left. I think your allusion was quite inappropriate and tone-deaf, given the history and context of the discussion, and I stand by that position. BUT I do not want to encourage any invitation that you should leave. I do not wish to be the moderator here, at least not anymore (I am clearly disqualified for that) but I?ve taken that role in the past and I feel compelled to be very clear that I was not trying to add any pressure on that direction from that position. I can only appeal to follow Antti?s suggestion. Alfredo From: on behalf of "Stetsenko, Anna" Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Saturday, 28 November 2020 at 03:15 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Vygotsky is dangerous... Oh yes, Vygotsky is actually very dangerous, the very left you can imagine, as the site you referenced here on xmca has revealed - the invisible serf collar or something, referencing my work by the way as a great danger... So, I would think twice, if I were you (knowing what you posted), to be affiliated with Vygotsky and xmca. But then, I am not a boss here. See, how dangerous this is, here are my words:? "Cultural-historical and activity theories need to [re]connect to radical strands of work, such as critical race theory, to be part of a wide movement of resistance in facing the all-encompassing crisis of late capitalism. The banal, biscuit-box Vygotsky could be then made dangerous again, that is, useful in the struggle for a better world. I borrow from Critchley (2013) who argued against the banal, biscuit-box Shakespeare, saying that ?if the authorities really understood [what he was writing], students might never be allowed to study the text.? This applies equally, if not more, to what could be a de-domesticated Vygotsky." Anna Stetsenko, PhD Professor Ph.D. Programs in Psychology/Human Development and in Urban Education The Graduate Center of The City University of New York 365 5th Avenue, New York, NY 10016 https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://annastetsenko.ws.gc.cuny.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!TXyDpHz4khmhDf65wCnsE8UYU8evF6yKWOQFoo2WWDYkCdrvGmB1N6l4rxMV-yFEVzweOw$ visit https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.academia.edu__;!!Mih3wA!TXyDpHz4khmhDf65wCnsE8UYU8evF6yKWOQFoo2WWDYkCdrvGmB1N6l4rxMV-yGkjokFgQ$ for my recent publications ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Anthony Barra Sent: Friday, November 27, 2020 8:43 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: keeping eyes open Yes, sins were committed... e.g., sharing the work of 4 widely respected (and contested) African-American scholars, whose heterodox scholarship is additive, though of course not definitive. Additive, that is, to anyone open to intellectual diversity. I came to here hoping to learn more about Vygotsky, not to argue. And if you'd like me to leave, Anna, why not just ask me? This is your field, not mine; I haven't put in 1/1000th the hours you have. I won't mind -- I'm very tolerant of diverse views other than my own. It's a virtue, Anthony Barra P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject matter of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the development of human higher psychological functions. (How that is "left," "right," or otherwise is beyond me.) On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 7:33 PM Stetsenko, Anna > wrote: There is always background and history to everything. Things were clear at least since this exchange (below), are our eyes open?? Read back from that June 7th? email, Michael Glassman writing regarding Anthony Barra?'s posts. There was no appropriate action taken then and so things have been dragging on. Glassman might have quit too after that. And also - there should be no doubt that the origins of CHAT have to do with the left, there is no other way to understand it other than from the left in political terms (even if Vygotsky has been domesticated since his days). No surprise, theory is never neutral. There is politics in this recent episode of course too, through and through. On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael > wrote: What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being used to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. Michael On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael > wrote: ... What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. Michael? Anna Stetsenko, PhD Professor Ph.D. Programs in Psychology/Human Development and in Urban Education The Graduate Center of The City University of New York 365 5th Avenue, New York, NY 10016 https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://annastetsenko.ws.gc.cuny.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!TXyDpHz4khmhDf65wCnsE8UYU8evF6yKWOQFoo2WWDYkCdrvGmB1N6l4rxMV-yFEVzweOw$ visit https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.academia.edu__;!!Mih3wA!TXyDpHz4khmhDf65wCnsE8UYU8evF6yKWOQFoo2WWDYkCdrvGmB1N6l4rxMV-yGkjokFgQ$ for my recent publications ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Beth Ferholt > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2020 6:10 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? Zara invited other risks -- Thank you for asking us all! -- I would like to add: 6. "If I say something and there is only silence ... and then I say something else and there is only silence, again ... how will I remember that this is Not just the evidence I need to prove that I should have remained in another profession, where people understood me when I spoke?" The design question we can ask ourselves: How do we sustain our collective work to help all members to hold at bay the pernicious deficit model, never thinking that this is a battle we each must fight in private and alone, or with a few select supporters? How do we help all of us to remember that this fight takes active and ongoing as well as collective work, and that for each success story against the odds we have lost 100's of voices -- and often the voices of those with the most valuable (as they are rare in the field) perspectives for the field? Can we each be supported as long as necessary as we "learn to ride this particular kind of bike" (or adjust the bike so that we can ride it), providing only that we have the desire to try? #7. ?? Beth On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 5:37 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Wow! That is a really useful post, Zaza. I have bookmarked it. I think your suggestion to frame xmca in terms of "risk" is very productive. Thank you. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 28/11/2020 7:51 am, Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: I follow a lot of the discussions on xmca but rarely post. Despite many very warm invitations from Mike and others, I have only posted on this forum 3 times since joining in 2014. I read about 80% of the threads. So to the question, "isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type..." here's are my thoughts: I'm a millennial so I have been observing online discussion forum blowouts since I was about 16. People who look like me (black, female, immigrant) get trolled online all the time. I'm not saying xmca has trolls but I've become conditioned to worry about the risks of posting in any online forum. As a general rule it is safer not to get sucked in - to watch but not to get blood on my hands. I am only an active poster in groups where I trust the members and feel safe in, even when I don't know all the members. So what I asked myself what is it about xmca that makes me feel like I have to be super careful about what I post? What makes this group feel "unsafe" or "toxic". In other words, what makes it feel risky to post something on xmca? Below I've listed the 5 risks that I worry about. There are more, certainly, but I picked just the first few to start and paired them with some design questions I think we should be asking about how to design the community we want here. 1. "What is the context for this post? I think I get it but are we talking about the same thing?" The design question we can ask ourselves: What can we do to provide better context, in a way that invites more members to add to an original post? 2. "I'm only marginally familiar with this topic, I'm curious but I won't ask questions but I don't have the energy to be "schooled" on this today." The design questions we can ask ourselves: How can we be argumentative, informative, without being toxic? What is the best way to engage novices and experts in this topic? 3. "Who else is out there, reading this? I don't know who I'm talking to except the 5 or so active members" The design question we can ask ourselves: What can we do as a community to learn more about each other, our work, and our domains of focus or ways of applying CHAT. 4. "If I post this will it turn into a long and laborious (unpleasant) email exchange? Am I ready for a fight in this space?" The design question we can ask ourselves: How do we bring critique without criticism? How do we sustain conversation without putting the burden on only the original poster? 5. "Dude, I don't read or speak Russian so I have nothing to say about the translation from the original." The design question we can ask ourselves: How do we get around the challenges of casual and virtual engagement; and the challenge of not knowing who this community is or if what I (each of us) can contribute will be valuable to the community. So this is why, for me, it's not so straightforward to say anyone can post. I'd love to see what other "risks" people have perceived. I'd also love to be part of doing something about addressing them, because I do think this forum has the potential to be an incredible community for more than just a handful of members. On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 12:35 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what he or she wishes and then click the Send button? This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is confusing to me. Maybe this is something only someone on the left can understand? If people want to post a comment, question, remark, new topic, etc, they should just do it. Who cares if it's not automatically received with open arms or agreement? Isn't that half the fun? Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing in academia? Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching that level come with the freedom to speak openly? As one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really counterproductive to me. Naively (I suppose), Anthony On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole > wrote: Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. I, too, have been thinking about the long history of xmca's inability to create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would conduct pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen the correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a discourse practice that discourages participation from those who are intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of recommendation for a scarce job. So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone else. The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought us the presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky and the tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are adept in, and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing educational practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a manner that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of desired pedagogical outcomes. Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did not spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and designs of its creators. At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, written in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of xlchc, its transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca authors received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely because of the issues being raised here for the past week). http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf [lchc.ucsd.edu] There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when LCHC tried to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other on a working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. A lot of smart, experienced, people tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, as we are witnessing. Time for the next generation to join the discussion. Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much. thanks for reading this far if you have! stay safe. take care mike ? I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who lament, xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind bias On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip > wrote: dear Everyone: thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that individually referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, i'm reminded that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, that i've noticed. only this time, the response is different in both quality and quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - which in my mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a newer and younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use of our shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on the spot - elicits the synonyms: embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - wither - show up. if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words of praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have wondered about that evolution." i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they do does." in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in social gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a person of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of their own comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of both white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. and one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that those who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points of view that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this should not be placed on those already socially marginalized. i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get their master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly complex topic. and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it was illuminating. phillip -- I[Image removed by sender. Angelus Novus]The Angel's View of History The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside. So organisms create the conditions of their own future which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TXyDpHz4khmhDf65wCnsE8UYU8evF6yKWOQFoo2WWDYkCdrvGmB1N6l4rxMV-yHuWk47Mw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu [lchc.ucsd.edu]. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu [lchcautobio.ucsd.edu]. -- To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!TXyDpHz4khmhDf65wCnsE8UYU8evF6yKWOQFoo2WWDYkCdrvGmB1N6l4rxMV-yFDLf-6vQ$ -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/16587134/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Sat Nov 28 07:54:38 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 02:54:38 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Thanks Message-ID: Because I fear that xmca may be done for, I want to put on record what xmca has done for me, while I can. Back in 1999, I was a 54-year-old Technical Manager at the University of Melbourne, responsible for maintenance of the AV equipment in teaching spaces. I was involved in a project of fitting out some rooms for collaborative learning and collaborating with some academic staff, and from them I learnt about Vygotsky. I had heard about him, but never read him. His books were not available in Australia. I had never attended a lecture in Psychology or anything, but I wanted to learn more about Vygotsky. One of the academics suggested I join xmca. I had never seen a listserv before but I gave it a go. I made lot of gaffs in those first days, including letting it be known that I thought Mike Cole was some kind of bot, because he always answered my questions so promptly, I didn't think it could be a real person. And I also told someone that their paper was "very poor" which I thought was a normal thing to do. Of course, you don't say such things on a listserv. Any way, I have since published books on CHAT and so forth, and rightly or wrongly I have a reputation. Everything I learnt has from directly or indirectly from xmca. Without it I would be nothing. If xmca folds I will understand, but I will be very sad. I understand what Zaza so insightfully called the "risk" of posting to xmca. It never affected me because I never had any fear of academics. My interactions with them (before xmca) had been either as their union rep. or helping them when they were having trouble with their equipment. I never depended on one of them for my career, and it never really mattered if I said something wrong. But I get it that it is not like that for everyone. I don't see anything that could be done about that riskiness. What attracted me to xmca was that you could ask a question and the person who wrote the book might answer you. It was amazing! It's not a friendship group. It's very diversity has been its importance for me. Otherwise I would never know people like? Mike, or Martin or David K(x2) or Beth or Anthony or Carol, ..... all of whom I now count as friends. But what can you do? Let's see what the morrow brings. Thank you xmca. Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201129/01deadda/attachment.html From glassman.13@osu.edu Sat Nov 28 08:00:51 2020 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 16:00:51 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> Message-ID: I find it interesting that the current discussion, one of the best on xmca in many years I think, started with a ?mistake.? At least that is how I read the thread, Arturo sent a private message that somehow went public. What is driving this conversation, at least to some degree, is the power, the passion and the affect of Arturo?s words (I would say this as the direction that Vygotsky was moving, his thinking on the role of affect in the ways we think and conceptualize the world ? Anna is right I think, Vygotsky was a very dangerous thinker who got shoved by many into a box, and now we are afraid to let him back out ? but a discussion for another time). What is important is that Arturo?s message crashed through the boundaries of ?acceptable? academic discourse and immediately started to make at least some on this list ((including me) think in a different way, bring out different ideas, open up new avenues of thinking about what this discourse means. It is both exciting and frightening. It is something I don?t know if I can do (although even as part of the most privileged class in this society, a white male, I have been met with silence and it is painful and frightening and I cannot imagine how difficult it is for less privileged). I would hope to read more about Zaza?s ideas on voice. It sounds really fascinating and some of the other ideas that have been brought up (such as from Maxine), but can also understand holding back. I think Arturo?s message created new spaces, I hope people take the chance to fill them. I also wonder if the next crashing through boundaries will be purposeful. I don?t say this cavalierly. Institutional processes are incredibly hard and frustrating to change, if we can change them at all, and it is difficult to think of anything more institutional than academics. I have been researching #Defund the Police of late for a paper. This hashtag, I believe more than anything Black Lives Matter has done previously (and they have done a lot over the last seven years) crashed through the boundaries of acceptable, legitimate social discourse. It is amazing to consider the social hysteria these three simple words have created, and the avenues for understanding it has opened up. Although institutions certainly seem to have closed ranks against it, I think #Defund the Police will be pushing our actions and thinking for a while. All this is to say I think Arturo?s message and the spaces it has created is incredibly health for xmca and academia in general. We will see where we go from here. P.S.: Anna, thank you for your comments. Alfredo did respond to my frustration, on list and I believe individually. I agree with him that we want limited moderation, but what do you do in circumstances of privilege where people act unaware of their privilege (which I am certain I have done on more occasions than I care to remember). Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Ksenia A. Korobkova Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2020 1:00 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? Hi Zaza, Just wanted to respond with gratitude toward your reframing and your sharing. This discussion went from breaks, territorialism, and attempts to repair to conversations about redesigning futures, and for hope, and equity. My parallel self that could stay/return to academia would find your voice retrieval article very valuable and my current not-academic self would love to hear it. Good vibes and thanks your way, Ksenia On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:05 PM Zaza Kabayadondo > wrote: Thank you for offering up a risk in this community, Beth. I feel this too. It might in fact be one of the biggest risks because I experience this online and offline too (on teams in my work, in the classroom, even in my extended family). Being met with silence has the effect of making you feel as though your voice is not audible, does not exist. Erasure. I hope we can do some restorative work on this forum (and the other discourse communities we are in for that matter) so that we can find, welcome, embrace (and retrieve) those lost voices. Side note, retrieving lost voice is a cultural practice in Zimbabwe. I once worked on an article about that sensation of voicelessness but never published it because it felt too deeply personal or like something nobody would want to hear, talk about, or find valuable. On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 3:32 PM Beth Ferholt > wrote: Keeping at bay the deficit model takes a lot of time and energy, is all I mean. B. On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:27 PM Beth Ferholt > wrote: Correction: We must of course fight in private and with a few select supporters -- but not ONLY this way, the fighting for this cause must also be demanded of all members -- and is there not a way to give some kind of credit for this labor that works towards tenure and promotion (a title?)? ... actually, that last is a serious question. Beth On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:10 PM Beth Ferholt > wrote: Zara invited other risks -- Thank you for asking us all! -- I would like to add: 6. "If I say something and there is only silence ... and then I say something else and there is only silence, again ... how will I remember that this is Not just the evidence I need to prove that I should have remained in another profession, where people understood me when I spoke?" The design question we can ask ourselves: How do we sustain our collective work to help all members to hold at bay the pernicious deficit model, never thinking that this is a battle we each must fight in private and alone, or with a few select supporters? How do we help all of us to remember that this fight takes active and ongoing as well as collective work, and that for each success story against the odds we have lost 100's of voices -- and often the voices of those with the most valuable (as they are rare in the field) perspectives for the field? Can we each be supported as long as necessary as we "learn to ride this particular kind of bike" (or adjust the bike so that we can ride it), providing only that we have the desire to try? #7. ?? Beth On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 5:37 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Wow! That is a really useful post, Zaza. I have bookmarked it. I think your suggestion to frame xmca in terms of "risk" is very productive. Thank you. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 28/11/2020 7:51 am, Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: I follow a lot of the discussions on xmca but rarely post. Despite many very warm invitations from Mike and others, I have only posted on this forum 3 times since joining in 2014. I read about 80% of the threads. So to the question, "isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type..." here's are my thoughts: I'm a millennial so I have been observing online discussion forum blowouts since I was about 16. People who look like me (black, female, immigrant) get trolled online all the time. I'm not saying xmca has trolls but I've become conditioned to worry about the risks of posting in any online forum. As a general rule it is safer not to get sucked in - to watch but not to get blood on my hands. I am only an active poster in groups where I trust the members and feel safe in, even when I don't know all the members. So what I asked myself what is it about xmca that makes me feel like I have to be super careful about what I post? What makes this group feel "unsafe" or "toxic". In other words, what makes it feel risky to post something on xmca? Below I've listed the 5 risks that I worry about. There are more, certainly, but I picked just the first few to start and paired them with some design questions I think we should be asking about how to design the community we want here. 1. "What is the context for this post? I think I get it but are we talking about the same thing?" The design question we can ask ourselves: What can we do to provide better context, in a way that invites more members to add to an original post? 2. "I'm only marginally familiar with this topic, I'm curious but I won't ask questions but I don't have the energy to be "schooled" on this today." The design questions we can ask ourselves: How can we be argumentative, informative, without being toxic? What is the best way to engage novices and experts in this topic? 3. "Who else is out there, reading this? I don't know who I'm talking to except the 5 or so active members" The design question we can ask ourselves: What can we do as a community to learn more about each other, our work, and our domains of focus or ways of applying CHAT. 4. "If I post this will it turn into a long and laborious (unpleasant) email exchange? Am I ready for a fight in this space?" The design question we can ask ourselves: How do we bring critique without criticism? How do we sustain conversation without putting the burden on only the original poster? 5. "Dude, I don't read or speak Russian so I have nothing to say about the translation from the original." The design question we can ask ourselves: How do we get around the challenges of casual and virtual engagement; and the challenge of not knowing who this community is or if what I (each of us) can contribute will be valuable to the community. So this is why, for me, it's not so straightforward to say anyone can post. I'd love to see what other "risks" people have perceived. I'd also love to be part of doing something about addressing them, because I do think this forum has the potential to be an incredible community for more than just a handful of members. On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 12:35 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what he or she wishes and then click the Send button? This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is confusing to me. Maybe this is something only someone on the left can understand? If people want to post a comment, question, remark, new topic, etc, they should just do it. Who cares if it's not automatically received with open arms or agreement? Isn't that half the fun? Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing in academia? Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching that level come with the freedom to speak openly? As one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really counterproductive to me. Naively (I suppose), Anthony On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole > wrote: Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. I, too, have been thinking about the long history of xmca's inability to create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would conduct pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen the correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a discourse practice that discourages participation from those who are intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of recommendation for a scarce job. So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone else. The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought us the presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky and the tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are adept in, and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing educational practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a manner that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of desired pedagogical outcomes. Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did not spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and designs of its creators. At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, written in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of xlchc, its transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca authors received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely because of the issues being raised here for the past week). http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when LCHC tried to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other on a working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. A lot of smart, experienced, people tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, as we are witnessing. Time for the next generation to join the discussion. Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much. thanks for reading this far if you have! stay safe. take care mike ? I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who lament, xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind bias On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip > wrote: dear Everyone: thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that individually referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, i'm reminded that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, that i've noticed. only this time, the response is different in both quality and quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - which in my mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a newer and younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use of our shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on the spot - elicits the synonyms: embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - wither - show up. if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words of praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have wondered about that evolution." i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they do does." in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in social gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a person of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of their own comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of both white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. and one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that those who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points of view that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this should not be placed on those already socially marginalized. i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get their master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly complex topic. and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it was illuminating. phillip -- I[Image removed by sender. Angelus Novus]The Angel's View of History The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside. So organisms create the conditions of their own future which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XWp5KWZ3YxrmSViu8hzoSL1HC_uPRhjyNVxBWCzJ4mjadR_3Kq0CNEXrDqyy0epD-XFWeg$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!XWp5KWZ3YxrmSViu8hzoSL1HC_uPRhjyNVxBWCzJ4mjadR_3Kq0CNEXrDqyy0eraNhaV0w$ -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -- To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!XWp5KWZ3YxrmSViu8hzoSL1HC_uPRhjyNVxBWCzJ4mjadR_3Kq0CNEXrDqyy0eraNhaV0w$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/692c2a2a/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 662 bytes Desc: image002.jpg Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/692c2a2a/attachment.jpg From AStetsenko@gc.cuny.edu Sat Nov 28 09:48:20 2020 From: AStetsenko@gc.cuny.edu (Stetsenko, Anna) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 17:48:20 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> , Message-ID: <1606585699610.47576@gc.cuny.edu> "...the power, the passion and the affect of Arturo?s words...What is important is that Arturo?s message crashed through the boundaries of ?acceptable? academic discourse and immediately started to make at least some on this list ((including me) think in a different way, bring out different ideas, open up new avenues of thinking about what this discourse means. " -YES, EXACTLY! Very well said, Michael. This brought me to tears, and I thought - is it that we cry when we see the truth break through the walls? Or is it that we cry and then know the truth is coming through? (I know this is an old debate). Why would anyone think this is the end of xmca? Rather than a new beginning as it feels to me... And YES, Vygotsky would be for #Defund the Police and, moreover, he is about #Defund the Police. How do I know? Well, this is what the 1917 Revolution did - it defunded the police, among many other pretty radical things and Vygotsky was its ardent supporter and active participant. He was not hiding anywhere. ps. I should have said "not enough action" instead of "no action" about moderation. There was no effect, as Alfredo confirmed...that's what I meant to say. pps. David Kellogg wrote: "But I will say that people who speak languages without articles or languages that emphasize nouns over determiners (e.g. Korean, Chinese, Russian) are not born with a birth defect (or "null spell out", as the Chomskyans say)." -- good to know! (I think this is related to me writing "I am not a boss here" instead of "I am not the boss" here, if someone wonders). Anna Stetsenko, PhD Professor Ph.D. Programs in Psychology/Human Development and in Urban Education The Graduate Center of The City University of New York 365 5th Avenue, New York, NY 10016 https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://annastetsenko.ws.gc.cuny.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!WOljNeE81a9TjQTA8o5hidYEtPCNIeKGBSnLh0DWVzgcgIEA86kzCQ-V4jhT3zipsENSRQ$ visit https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.academia.edu__;!!Mih3wA!WOljNeE81a9TjQTA8o5hidYEtPCNIeKGBSnLh0DWVzgcgIEA86kzCQ-V4jhT3zjo3Wv9uA$ for my recent publications ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Glassman, Michael Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2020 11:00 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? I find it interesting that the current discussion, one of the best on xmca in many years I think, started with a ?mistake.? At least that is how I read the thread, Arturo sent a private message that somehow went public. What is driving this conversation, at least to some degree, is the power, the passion and the affect of Arturo?s words (I would say this as the direction that Vygotsky was moving, his thinking on the role of affect in the ways we think and conceptualize the world ? Anna is right I think, Vygotsky was a very dangerous thinker who got shoved by many into a box, and now we are afraid to let him back out ? but a discussion for another time). What is important is that Arturo?s message crashed through the boundaries of ?acceptable? academic discourse and immediately started to make at least some on this list ((including me) think in a different way, bring out different ideas, open up new avenues of thinking about what this discourse means. It is both exciting and frightening. It is something I don?t know if I can do (although even as part of the most privileged class in this society, a white male, I have been met with silence and it is painful and frightening and I cannot imagine how difficult it is for less privileged). I would hope to read more about Zaza?s ideas on voice. It sounds really fascinating and some of the other ideas that have been brought up (such as from Maxine), but can also understand holding back. I think Arturo?s message created new spaces, I hope people take the chance to fill them. I also wonder if the next crashing through boundaries will be purposeful. I don?t say this cavalierly. Institutional processes are incredibly hard and frustrating to change, if we can change them at all, and it is difficult to think of anything more institutional than academics. I have been researching #Defund the Police of late for a paper. This hashtag, I believe more than anything Black Lives Matter has done previously (and they have done a lot over the last seven years) crashed through the boundaries of acceptable, legitimate social discourse. It is amazing to consider the social hysteria these three simple words have created, and the avenues for understanding it has opened up. Although institutions certainly seem to have closed ranks against it, I think #Defund the Police will be pushing our actions and thinking for a while. All this is to say I think Arturo?s message and the spaces it has created is incredibly health for xmca and academia in general. We will see where we go from here. P.S.: Anna, thank you for your comments. Alfredo did respond to my frustration, on list and I believe individually. I agree with him that we want limited moderation, but what do you do in circumstances of privilege where people act unaware of their privilege (which I am certain I have done on more occasions than I care to remember). Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Ksenia A. Korobkova Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2020 1:00 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? Hi Zaza, Just wanted to respond with gratitude toward your reframing and your sharing. This discussion went from breaks, territorialism, and attempts to repair to conversations about redesigning futures, and for hope, and equity. My parallel self that could stay/return to academia would find your voice retrieval article very valuable and my current not-academic self would love to hear it. Good vibes and thanks your way, Ksenia On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:05 PM Zaza Kabayadondo > wrote: Thank you for offering up a risk in this community, Beth. I feel this too. It might in fact be one of the biggest risks because I experience this online and offline too (on teams in my work, in the classroom, even in my extended family). Being met with silence has the effect of making you feel as though your voice is not audible, does not exist. Erasure. I hope we can do some restorative work on this forum (and the other discourse communities we are in for that matter) so that we can find, welcome, embrace (and retrieve) those lost voices. Side note, retrieving lost voice is a cultural practice in Zimbabwe. I once worked on an article about that sensation of voicelessness but never published it because it felt too deeply personal or like something nobody would want to hear, talk about, or find valuable. On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 3:32 PM Beth Ferholt > wrote: Keeping at bay the deficit model takes a lot of time and energy, is all I mean. B. On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:27 PM Beth Ferholt > wrote: Correction: We must of course fight in private and with a few select supporters -- but not ONLY this way, the fighting for this cause must also be demanded of all members -- and is there not a way to give some kind of credit for this labor that works towards tenure and promotion (a title?)? ... actually, that last is a serious question. Beth On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:10 PM Beth Ferholt > wrote: Zara invited other risks -- Thank you for asking us all! -- I would like to add: 6. "If I say something and there is only silence ... and then I say something else and there is only silence, again ... how will I remember that this is Not just the evidence I need to prove that I should have remained in another profession, where people understood me when I spoke?" The design question we can ask ourselves: How do we sustain our collective work to help all members to hold at bay the pernicious deficit model, never thinking that this is a battle we each must fight in private and alone, or with a few select supporters? How do we help all of us to remember that this fight takes active and ongoing as well as collective work, and that for each success story against the odds we have lost 100's of voices -- and often the voices of those with the most valuable (as they are rare in the field) perspectives for the field? Can we each be supported as long as necessary as we "learn to ride this particular kind of bike" (or adjust the bike so that we can ride it), providing only that we have the desire to try? #7. ?? Beth On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 5:37 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Wow! That is a really useful post, Zaza. I have bookmarked it. I think your suggestion to frame xmca in terms of "risk" is very productive. Thank you. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 28/11/2020 7:51 am, Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: I follow a lot of the discussions on xmca but rarely post. Despite many very warm invitations from Mike and others, I have only posted on this forum 3 times since joining in 2014. I read about 80% of the threads. So to the question, "isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type..." here's are my thoughts: I'm a millennial so I have been observing online discussion forum blowouts since I was about 16. People who look like me (black, female, immigrant) get trolled online all the time. I'm not saying xmca has trolls but I've become conditioned to worry about the risks of posting in any online forum. As a general rule it is safer not to get sucked in - to watch but not to get blood on my hands. I am only an active poster in groups where I trust the members and feel safe in, even when I don't know all the members. So what I asked myself what is it about xmca that makes me feel like I have to be super careful about what I post? What makes this group feel "unsafe" or "toxic". In other words, what makes it feel risky to post something on xmca? Below I've listed the 5 risks that I worry about. There are more, certainly, but I picked just the first few to start and paired them with some design questions I think we should be asking about how to design the community we want here. 1. "What is the context for this post? I think I get it but are we talking about the same thing?" The design question we can ask ourselves: What can we do to provide better context, in a way that invites more members to add to an original post? 2. "I'm only marginally familiar with this topic, I'm curious but I won't ask questions but I don't have the energy to be "schooled" on this today." The design questions we can ask ourselves: How can we be argumentative, informative, without being toxic? What is the best way to engage novices and experts in this topic? 3. "Who else is out there, reading this? I don't know who I'm talking to except the 5 or so active members" The design question we can ask ourselves: What can we do as a community to learn more about each other, our work, and our domains of focus or ways of applying CHAT. 4. "If I post this will it turn into a long and laborious (unpleasant) email exchange? Am I ready for a fight in this space?" The design question we can ask ourselves: How do we bring critique without criticism? How do we sustain conversation without putting the burden on only the original poster? 5. "Dude, I don't read or speak Russian so I have nothing to say about the translation from the original." The design question we can ask ourselves: How do we get around the challenges of casual and virtual engagement; and the challenge of not knowing who this community is or if what I (each of us) can contribute will be valuable to the community. So this is why, for me, it's not so straightforward to say anyone can post. I'd love to see what other "risks" people have perceived. I'd also love to be part of doing something about addressing them, because I do think this forum has the potential to be an incredible community for more than just a handful of members. On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 12:35 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what he or she wishes and then click the Send button? This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is confusing to me. Maybe this is something only someone on the left can understand? If people want to post a comment, question, remark, new topic, etc, they should just do it. Who cares if it's not automatically received with open arms or agreement? Isn't that half the fun? Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing in academia? Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching that level come with the freedom to speak openly? As one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really counterproductive to me. Naively (I suppose), Anthony On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole > wrote: Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. I, too, have been thinking about the long history of xmca's inability to create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would conduct pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen the correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a discourse practice that discourages participation from those who are intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of recommendation for a scarce job. So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone else. The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought us the presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky and the tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are adept in, and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing educational practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a manner that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of desired pedagogical outcomes. Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did not spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and designs of its creators. At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, written in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of xlchc, its transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca authors received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely because of the issues being raised here for the past week). http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when LCHC tried to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other on a working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. A lot of smart, experienced, people tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, as we are witnessing. Time for the next generation to join the discussion. Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much. thanks for reading this far if you have! stay safe. take care mike ? I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who lament, xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind bias On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip > wrote: dear Everyone: thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that individually referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, i'm reminded that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, that i've noticed. only this time, the response is different in both quality and quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - which in my mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a newer and younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use of our shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on the spot - elicits the synonyms: embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - wither - show up. if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words of praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have wondered about that evolution." i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they do does." in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in social gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a person of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of their own comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of both white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. and one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that those who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points of view that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this should not be placed on those already socially marginalized. i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get their master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly complex topic. and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it was illuminating. phillip -- I[Image removed by sender. Angelus Novus]The Angel's View of History The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside. So organisms create the conditions of their own future which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!WOljNeE81a9TjQTA8o5hidYEtPCNIeKGBSnLh0DWVzgcgIEA86kzCQ-V4jhT3zj9m-PeHQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!WOljNeE81a9TjQTA8o5hidYEtPCNIeKGBSnLh0DWVzgcgIEA86kzCQ-V4jhT3zimKzsMzQ$ -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -- To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!WOljNeE81a9TjQTA8o5hidYEtPCNIeKGBSnLh0DWVzgcgIEA86kzCQ-V4jhT3zimKzsMzQ$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/018745f3/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 662 bytes Desc: image002.jpg Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/018745f3/attachment.jpg From darya@education.ucsb.edu Sat Nov 28 09:56:45 2020 From: darya@education.ucsb.edu (Diana Arya) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 09:56:45 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: keeping eyes open In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> Message-ID: Hello all, Acknowledging the emergence of multiple threads from the original ("why generations"), I selected this particular thread to build on Antti's encouragement to invite other voices in reimagining the purposes and practices of this listserv. I'm currently working on a manuscript that relates to what we can learn, how we can grow as scholars, when/if we view reality as the *known unknown. *We need diverse voices/insights/experiences to understand what's happening to whom, for what purposes and under what conditions. James Baldwin is a central voice in my piece; the following excerpt from the 1980 landmark essay *Dark Days *may be relevant to our discussion: Every human being born begins to be *civilized* the moment he or she is born. Since we all arrive here absolutely helpless, with no way of getting a decent meal or of moving from one place to another without human help (and human help exacts a human price), there is no way around that. But this is civilization with a small *c*. Civilization with a large *C* is something else again. So is education with a small *e* different from Education with a large E. In the lowercase, education refers to the relations that actually obtain among human beings. In the uppercase, it refers to power. ?James Baldwin, *Dark Days*, p.44 Perhaps we can use Baldwin's linguistic marker in making visible the power distinction of R/research practices. I find that the work of philosopher Kristie Dotson on what she calls *epistemic oppression* is also relevant. Who gets to be the *knower, *and who is relegated to making mistakes or missing intentions? Obviously power plays a role here. And now that some time has passed, I want to celebrate Arturo's intrepid engagement with this listserv. We have got to be willing to see *HOW* (not if) racism is instantiated in our discourse. We have been socialized in a world that values some groups of others, and such inequities seep into our languages, discourses, etc. And academia is not immune to racist ideologies. I believe that the real risk is acknowledging one's blind spots, and learning to see the world as it is. What do others think? Best, D On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 3:33 AM Antti Rajala wrote: > David and all, > > In my reading, the issue at stake is that over a long time, many people > experience the XMCA list as unwelcoming. Instead of refocusing the issue to > something else, I believe we all have a responsibility to recognize it as a > problem, carefully listen to these voices and be open to a change in the > power dynamics of this list. Zaza, Beth, and others have made a good start > in suggesting concrete principles of where to start. > > Antti > > On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 at 12:56, David Kellogg wrote: > >> Zaza-- >> >> Dude, I don't really speak Russian either, as Nikolai and Anna will tell >> you (we only speak English). In my translation work I spend a lot more time >> on Google Translate than I would like, and that's why I burden the list >> with the queries you mention from time to time.. But I bet you speak Shona, >> or at least understand a little. >> >> So maybe you can help. I'm using this tune from the late great Tuku >> (Oliver Mtukudzi) in a class I am giving on sex education in Korea. I've >> been told that it doesn't really mention AIDS/HIV explicitly, and I get >> that--in fact, that's one of the reasons why I think it's useful for making >> certain parallels between pandemics and also discussing HPV and other >> issues I want to talk about. But I don't quite understand THIS verse--maybe >> you can help me? >> >> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye >> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma >> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >> Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana >> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >> Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana >> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >> >> So "Kana uinahwo utachiwana" means something like "If you get infected". >> But what is the reference to being raped by your roommate? >> >> On the subject of this thread. Like voter fraud, racism is a very serious >> charge, and the right has successfully made hay out of its seriousness. But >> as with voter fraud they have made even more hay out of rendering the >> charge unproveable, by removing its class content and rendering it a purely >> subjective inclination. This is why, I think (I hope), Arturo and others >> tend to raise this sort of thing in private off-list material that is so >> much at variance with their public writings that it fairly attracts the >> charge of hypocrisy or at least political timidity. After all, if you >> really suspect your interlocutor of racism, it's incumbent on you to keep >> your mouth and not just your eyes open. But you've got to put money where >> your mouth is: you have to provide some evidence (e.g. the paper that >> Harshad circulated on the list not too long ago). There are important >> scientific issues we need to discuss which are actually not unrelated to >> the one that Arturo was reacting to: whether you can accurately judge the >> language proficiency of a person by their race or national origin (as I >> have done in the second paragraph above). Not unrelated. But not identical >> to either, else I would not have written that paragraph. >> >> Here's an example. A dear colleague of mine, who like the vast majority >> of people in this country is not white and wouldn't know deficit >> linguistics from a surplus, has just written a paper on why Korean children >> tend to drop articles (i.e. "a" and "the"). He begins with the Chomskyan >> premise that all nouns must, according to universal human grammars which >> are hardwired at birth, be realized by "determiner phrases". What that >> means is that a noun phrase like "the cat" is not really about a cat--it's >> about "the", and the "the" is modified by "cat" (What kind of "the-ness" do >> you mean? The cat kind!) >> >> But it's THIS, and not Vygotskyan, Hallidayan, or Bernsteinian >> developmentalism, that is deficit linguistics. I won't say it is racist, >> because unfortunately that term has lost its scientific content and become >> nothing but a thought crime. But I will say that people who speak languages >> without articles or languages that emphasize nouns over determiners (e.g. >> Korean, Chinese, Russian) are not born with a birth defect (or "null spell >> out", as the Chomskyans say). >> >> Does Shona have articles or not? Do you know? >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY0JssD8Hzc__;!!Mih3wA!SWP2ZnqgUqryJOnGljQ0m8RjinrQROanrP4GpZ_iIiLzaHb7yDYK93TPCNTgFzYgRlD9hA$ >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Book with Nikolai Veresov >> L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology >> Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai >> Veresov >> See free downloadable pdf at: >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!SWP2ZnqgUqryJOnGljQ0m8RjinrQROanrP4GpZ_iIiLzaHb7yDYK93TPCNTgFzayPs2HzQ$ >> >> >> Forthcoming in 2020: >> L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. >> Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David >> Kellogg >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 6:02 PM Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >> >>> >>>> P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject >>>> matter of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the *development of >>>> human higher psychological functions*. (How that is "left," "right," >>>> or otherwise is beyond me.) >>>> >>> >>> Political propensities can be discerned across some (adult) >>> developmental stages. >>> >>> Huw >>> >>>> >>> >>> -- *Nothing can be changed until it is faced. *(James Baldwin) Diana J. Arya, PhD she/her/hers/they/them/theirs Associate Professor and Graduate Diversity Officer, Education Faculty Director, McEnroe Reading and Language Arts Clinic Gevirtz Graduate School of Education University of California, Santa Barbara https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.cbleducation.org__;!!Mih3wA!SWP2ZnqgUqryJOnGljQ0m8RjinrQROanrP4GpZ_iIiLzaHb7yDYK93TPCNTgFzaPiElt7A$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/36cdc9c8/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Sat Nov 28 10:11:10 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 13:11:10 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: keeping eyes open In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> Message-ID: <1AFF7241-F182-4776-BD2C-164967F45A19@cantab.net> Perhaps helpful? (If the attachment gets through?) Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) > On Nov 28, 2020, at 12:56 PM, Diana Arya wrote: > > Hello all, > > Acknowledging the emergence of multiple threads from the original ("why generations"), I selected this particular thread to build on Antti's encouragement to invite other voices in reimagining the purposes and practices of this listserv. I'm currently working on a manuscript that relates to what we can learn, how we can grow as scholars, when/if we view reality as the known unknown. We need diverse voices/insights/experiences to understand what's happening to whom, for what purposes and under what conditions. James Baldwin is a central voice in my piece; the following excerpt from the 1980 landmark essay Dark Days may be relevant to our discussion: > > Every human being born begins to be civilized the moment he or she is born. Since we all arrive here absolutely helpless, with no way of getting a decent meal or of moving from one place to another without human help (and human help exacts a human price), there is no way around that. But this is civilization with a small c. Civilization with a large C is something else again. So is education with a small e different from Education with a large E. In the lowercase, education refers to the relations that actually obtain among human beings. In the uppercase, it refers to power. ?James Baldwin, Dark Days, p.44 > <> > > Perhaps we can use Baldwin's linguistic marker in making visible the power distinction of R/research practices. I find that the work of philosopher Kristie Dotson on what she calls epistemic oppression is also relevant. Who gets to be the knower, and who is relegated to making mistakes or missing intentions? Obviously power plays a role here. > > And now that some time has passed, I want to celebrate Arturo's intrepid engagement with this listserv. We have got to be willing to see HOW (not if) racism is instantiated in our discourse. We have been socialized in a world that values some groups of others, and such inequities seep into our languages, discourses, etc. And academia is not immune to racist ideologies. I believe that the real risk is acknowledging one's blind spots, and learning to see the world as it is. > > What do others think? > > Best, > D > > > On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 3:33 AM Antti Rajala > wrote: > David and all, > > In my reading, the issue at stake is that over a long time, many people experience the XMCA list as unwelcoming. Instead of refocusing the issue to something else, I believe we all have a responsibility to recognize it as a problem, carefully listen to these voices and be open to a change in the power dynamics of this list. Zaza, Beth, and others have made a good start in suggesting concrete principles of where to start. > > Antti > > On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 at 12:56, David Kellogg > wrote: > Zaza-- > > Dude, I don't really speak Russian either, as Nikolai and Anna will tell you (we only speak English). In my translation work I spend a lot more time on Google Translate than I would like, and that's why I burden the list with the queries you mention from time to time.. But I bet you speak Shona, or at least understand a little. > > So maybe you can help. I'm using this tune from the late great Tuku (Oliver Mtukudzi) in a class I am giving on sex education in Korea. I've been told that it doesn't really mention AIDS/HIV explicitly, and I get that--in fact, that's one of the reasons why I think it's useful for making certain parallels between pandemics and also discussing HPV and other issues I want to talk about. But I don't quite understand THIS verse--maybe you can help me? > > Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > > So "Kana uinahwo utachiwana" means something like "If you get infected". But what is the reference to being raped by your roommate? > > On the subject of this thread. Like voter fraud, racism is a very serious charge, and the right has successfully made hay out of its seriousness. But as with voter fraud they have made even more hay out of rendering the charge unproveable, by removing its class content and rendering it a purely subjective inclination. This is why, I think (I hope), Arturo and others tend to raise this sort of thing in private off-list material that is so much at variance with their public writings that it fairly attracts the charge of hypocrisy or at least political timidity. After all, if you really suspect your interlocutor of racism, it's incumbent on you to keep your mouth and not just your eyes open. But you've got to put money where your mouth is: you have to provide some evidence (e.g. the paper that Harshad circulated on the list not too long ago). There are important scientific issues we need to discuss which are actually not unrelated to the one that Arturo was reacting to: whether you can accurately judge the language proficiency of a person by their race or national origin (as I have done in the second paragraph above). Not unrelated. But not identical to either, else I would not have written that paragraph. > > Here's an example. A dear colleague of mine, who like the vast majority of people in this country is not white and wouldn't know deficit linguistics from a surplus, has just written a paper on why Korean children tend to drop articles (i.e. "a" and "the"). He begins with the Chomskyan premise that all nouns must, according to universal human grammars which are hardwired at birth, be realized by "determiner phrases". What that means is that a noun phrase like "the cat" is not really about a cat--it's about "the", and the "the" is modified by "cat" (What kind of "the-ness" do you mean? The cat kind!) > > But it's THIS, and not Vygotskyan, Hallidayan, or Bernsteinian developmentalism, that is deficit linguistics. I won't say it is racist, because unfortunately that term has lost its scientific content and become nothing but a thought crime. But I will say that people who speak languages without articles or languages that emphasize nouns over determiners (e.g. Korean, Chinese, Russian) are not born with a birth defect (or "null spell out", as the Chomskyans say). > > Does Shona have articles or not? Do you know? > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY0JssD8Hzc__;!!Mih3wA!TPQUHWquNHZzq-XNH1YJOybMieM_Y8HPxt22c5fbesHXXvNqT0m6E4-6oAjdIYeD3q-2-w$ > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Book with Nikolai Veresov > L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology > Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai Veresov > See free downloadable pdf at: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!TPQUHWquNHZzq-XNH1YJOybMieM_Y8HPxt22c5fbesHXXvNqT0m6E4-6oAjdIYcNPIk-Wg$ > > Forthcoming in 2020: > L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. > Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David Kellogg > > > On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 6:02 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject matter of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the development of human higher psychological functions. (How that is "left," "right," or otherwise is beyond me.) > > Political propensities can be discerned across some (adult) developmental stages. > > Huw > > > > > -- > Nothing can be changed until it is faced. (James Baldwin) > > Diana J. Arya, PhD > she/her/hers/they/them/theirs > Associate Professor and Graduate Diversity Officer, Education > Faculty Director, McEnroe Reading and Language Arts Clinic > Gevirtz Graduate School of Education > University of California, Santa Barbara > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.cbleducation.org__;!!Mih3wA!TPQUHWquNHZzq-XNH1YJOybMieM_Y8HPxt22c5fbesHXXvNqT0m6E4-6oAjdIYfay2Y7ew$ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/a1208c1f/attachment-0002.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Laland 2020 Racism in academia, and why the ?little things? matter.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 315694 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/a1208c1f/attachment-0001.pdf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/a1208c1f/attachment-0003.html From jamesma320@gmail.com Sat Nov 28 10:39:58 2020 From: jamesma320@gmail.com (James Ma) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 18:39:58 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> Message-ID: I think true academic discourse is oceanic and exhilarating. Xmas should be a platform where the benevolent see benevolence and the wise see wisdom. If we could speak our mind, then it would be more likely for us to capture and appreciate the elusive nuances of such discourse. (I'm an apolitical person, barely interested in any kind of political correctness, but do cherish the heterogeneity of human interaction through freedom of academic discourse.) James *__________________________________________________* *James Ma Independent Scholar https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa__;!!Mih3wA!SPa321-GZ5HY7ae3wmaeN_u9ks700CRo6AM_RoECQgL49wf0jR8x4ajfhAuLNqDTtwi7NQ$ * Ma, J. (forthcoming) "Good packaging can be misleading": A Peircean contribution to intersubjectivity and Vygotskyan sign mediation. *Language and Sociocultural Theory*, Volume 7, Issue 2, 2020. Equinox. On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 at 16:04, Glassman, Michael wrote: > I find it interesting that the current discussion, one of the best on xmca > in many years I think, started with a ?mistake.? At least that is how I > read the thread, Arturo sent a private message that somehow went public. > What is driving this conversation, at least to some degree, is the power, > the passion and the affect of Arturo?s words (I would say this as the > direction that Vygotsky was moving, his thinking on the role of affect in > the ways we think and conceptualize the world ? Anna is right I think, > Vygotsky was a very dangerous thinker who got shoved by many into a box, > and now we are afraid to let him back out ? but a discussion for another > time). What is important is that Arturo?s message crashed through the > boundaries of ?acceptable? academic discourse and immediately started to > make at least some on this list ((including me) think in a different way, > bring out different ideas, open up new avenues of thinking about what this > discourse means. It is both exciting and frightening. It is something I > don?t know if I can do (although even as part of the most privileged class > in this society, a white male, I have been met with silence and it is > painful and frightening and I cannot imagine how difficult it is for less > privileged). I would hope to read more about Zaza?s ideas on voice. It > sounds really fascinating and some of the other ideas that have been > brought up (such as from Maxine), but can also understand holding back. I > think Arturo?s message created new spaces, I hope people take the chance to > fill them. I also wonder if the next crashing through boundaries will be > purposeful. I don?t say this cavalierly. Institutional processes are > incredibly hard and frustrating to change, if we can change them at all, > and it is difficult to think of anything more institutional than academics. > > > > I have been researching #Defund the Police of late for a paper. This > hashtag, I believe more than anything Black Lives Matter has done > previously (and they have done a lot over the last seven years) crashed > through the boundaries of acceptable, legitimate social discourse. It is > amazing to consider the social hysteria these three simple words have > created, and the avenues for understanding it has opened up. Although > institutions certainly seem to have closed ranks against it, I think > #Defund the Police will be pushing our actions and thinking for a while. > All this is to say I think Arturo?s message and the spaces it has created > is incredibly health for xmca and academia in general. We will see where we > go from here. > > > > P.S.: Anna, thank you for your comments. Alfredo did respond to my > frustration, on list and I believe individually. I agree with him that we > want limited moderation, but what do you do in circumstances of privilege > where people act unaware of their privilege (which I am certain I have done > on more occasions than I care to remember). > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Ksenia A. Korobkova > *Sent:* Saturday, November 28, 2020 1:00 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [New post] Why generations? > > > > Hi Zaza, > > > > Just wanted to respond with gratitude toward your reframing and your > sharing. This discussion went from breaks, territorialism, and attempts to > repair to conversations about redesigning futures, and for hope, and > equity. My parallel self that could stay/return to academia would find your > voice retrieval article very valuable and my current not-academic self > would love to hear it. > > > > Good vibes and thanks your way, > > Ksenia > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:05 PM Zaza Kabayadondo < > zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com> wrote: > > Thank you for offering up a risk in this community, Beth. > > > > I feel this too. It might in fact be one of the biggest risks because I > experience this online and offline too (on teams in my work, in the > classroom, even in my extended family). Being met with silence has the > effect of making you feel as though your voice is not audible, does not > exist. Erasure. I hope we can do some restorative work on this forum (and > the other discourse communities we are in for that matter) so that we can > find, welcome, embrace (and retrieve) those lost voices. > > > > Side note, retrieving lost voice is a cultural practice in Zimbabwe. I > once worked on an article about that sensation of voicelessness but never > published it because it felt too deeply personal or like something > nobody would want to hear, talk about, or find valuable. > > > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 3:32 PM Beth Ferholt wrote: > > Keeping at bay the deficit model takes a lot of time and energy, is all I > mean. B. > > > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:27 PM Beth Ferholt wrote: > > Correction: We must of course fight in private and with a few > select supporters -- but not ONLY this way, the fighting for this cause > must also be demanded of all members -- and is there not a way to give some > kind of credit for this labor that works towards tenure and promotion (a > title?)? ... actually, that last is a serious question. Beth > > > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:10 PM Beth Ferholt wrote: > > Zara invited other risks -- Thank you for asking us all! -- I would like > to add: > > > > 6. "If I say something and there is only silence ... and then I say > something else and there is only silence, again ... how will I remember > that this is Not just the evidence I need to prove that I should have > remained in another profession, where people understood me when I spoke?" > > *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we sustain our > collective work to help all members to hold at bay the pernicious deficit > model, never thinking that this is a battle we each must fight in private > and alone, or with a few select supporters? How do we help all of us to > remember that this fight takes active and ongoing as well as collective > work, and that for each success story against the odds we have lost 100's > of voices -- and often the voices of those with the most valuable (as they > are rare in the field) perspectives for the field? Can we each be > supported as long as necessary as we "learn to ride this particular kind > of bike" (or adjust the bike so that we can ride it), providing only that > we have the desire to try? > > > > #7. ?? > > > > Beth > > > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 5:37 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > Wow! That is a really useful post, Zaza. I have bookmarked it. > > I think your suggestion to frame xmca in terms of "risk" is very > productive. > Thank you. > > andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 28/11/2020 7:51 am, Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: > > I follow a lot of the discussions on xmca but rarely post. Despite many > very warm invitations from Mike and others, I have only posted on this > forum 3 times since joining in 2014. I read about 80% of the threads. > > > > So to the question, "isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type..." > here's are my thoughts: > > > > I'm a millennial so I have been observing online discussion forum blowouts > since I was about 16. People who look like me (black, female, immigrant) > get trolled online all the time. I'm not saying xmca has trolls but I've > become conditioned to worry about the risks of posting in any online forum. > As a general rule it is safer not to get sucked in - to watch but not to > get blood on my hands. I am only an active poster in groups where I trust > the members and feel safe in, even when I don't know all the members. So > what I asked myself what is it about xmca that makes me feel like I have to > be super careful about what I post? What makes this group feel "unsafe" or > "toxic". In other words, what makes it feel *risky* to post something on > xmca? Below I've listed the 5 risks that I worry about. There are more, > certainly, but I picked just the first few to start and paired them with > some design questions I think we should be asking about how to design the > community we want here. > > > > 1. "What is the context for this post? I think I get it but are we talking > about the same thing?" > > *The design question we can ask ourselves**:* What can we do to provide > better context, in a way that invites more members to add to an original > post? > > > > 2. "I'm only marginally familiar with this topic, I'm curious but I won't > ask questions but I don't have the energy to be "schooled" on this today." *The > design questions we can ask ourselves:* How can we be argumentative, > informative, without being toxic? What is the best way to engage novices > and experts in this topic? > > > > 3. "Who else is out there, reading this? I don't know who I'm talking to > except the 5 or so active members" > > *The design question we can ask ourselves:* What can we do as a community > to learn more about each other, our work, and our domains of focus or ways > of applying CHAT. > > > > 4. "If I post this will it turn into a long and laborious (unpleasant) > email exchange? Am I ready for a fight in this space?" > > *The design question we can ask ourselves:* How do we bring critique > without criticism? How do we sustain conversation without putting the > burden on only the original poster? > > > > 5. "Dude, I don't read or speak Russian so I have nothing to say about the > translation from the original." > > *The design question we can ask ourselves: *How do we get around the > challenges of casual and virtual engagement; and the challenge of not > knowing who this community is or if what I (each of us) can contribute will > be valuable to the community. > > > > So this is why, for me, it's not so straightforward to say anyone can > post. I'd love to see what other "risks" people have perceived. I'd also > love to be part of doing something about addressing them, because I do > think this forum has the potential to be an incredible community for more > than just a handful of members. > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 12:35 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Um, isn't any adult xmca member allowed to type what he or she wishes and > then click the Send button? > > > > This talk of stifling, excluding, suppressing, etc is confusing to me. > > > > Maybe this is something only someone on the left can understand? > > > > If people want to post a comment, question, remark, new topic, etc, they > should just do it. Who cares if it's not automatically received with open > arms or agreement? Isn't that half the fun? > > > > Is there really that much pressure and/or backstabbing in academia? > Shouldn't the accomplishment of reaching that level come with the freedom > to speak openly? As one on the outside, I guess I'm naive to these > pressures. But nonetheless, they seem really counterproductive to me. > > > > Naively (I suppose), > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Friday, November 27, 2020, mike cole wrote: > > Great to see your voice, Phillip. Its been a while. > > I, too, have been thinking about the long history of xmca's inability to > create a level and welcoming playing field. I mourn > > the days when Mary Bryson, Susanne Castell and Eva Ekblad would conduct > pointed lessons for those participating in the discussion > > for their utter blindness to issues of gender. And we have seen the > correctness of Foucault's reminder of our inability to know > > with any certainty the effects of our speech actions too often to > enumerate. Being "put on the spot," as you say, is a clear example of a > > discourse practice that discourages participation from those who are > intimidated for fear of being seen as misguided or of offending some > > senior person who will, one day, be writing a letter of recommendation for > a scarce job. > > > > So I, too, welcomed all of Arturo's notes and those over everyone else. > The crack in American society opened up by the BLM, Metoo, > > covid disruption, television of police murders, ...... has brought us the > presence of young scholars sympathetic to, but critical of, Vygotsky and the > > tradition we refer to as CHAT. They are also scholars who are adept in, > and leaders in, the use of digital media for reorganizing educational > > practices at both the colleague and elementary school levels in a manner > that does not put learners on the spot but affords a variety of desired > > pedagogical outcomes. > > > > Inspired by the elderly voices who remember that this problem did not > spring out of the ether, but is baked into the way that xmca and > > before it xlchc, developed-- against the explicit wishes and designs of > its creators. > > > > At the following link in the lchcautobio you will find a report, written > in 1992 by two former post-docs at lchc about the beginnings of xlchc, its > > transformation into xmca as a way amplify the feedback that xmca authors > received (this only worked well a couple of times, precisely because of > > the issues being raised here for the past week). > > > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/XLCHC-PDFs/Finkelstein-Gack_Seeds-of-XLCHC.pdf > > > > > There you will see all of the problems that we encountered when LCHC tried > to expand beyond the face to face practices in order to keep > > former students, post-docs, and visitors in touch with each other on a > working basis as a way to work around the discriminatory institutional > > that restricted our ability to maintain an integrated collective. A lot of > smart, experienced, people tried (Yro, Jim Wertch, ...It failed, as we are > witnessing. > > Time for the next generation to join the discussion. > > > > Like Phillip, I feel I have written enough, probably too much. > > > > thanks for reading this far if you have! > > stay safe. take care > > mike ? > > > > > > > > > > > > I, personally, have been lectured regularly by colleagues who lament, > xmca's failure to overcome its white male, gender-blind > > bias > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM White, Phillip > wrote: > > dear Everyone: > > > > thinking over all of the posts as an aggregate, rather that individually > referencing them, regarding marginalization of xmca members, i'm reminded > that this has been a topic over the last twenty-five years, that i've > noticed. only this time, the response is different in both quality and > quantity, as well as introducing shared tools of analysis - which in my > mind i believe is in part due to BLM activism, and certainly a newer and > younger generation of colleagues here on xmca with a mindful use of our > shared professional ethnographic tools. which i appreciate, greatly. > > > > as any native english speaker knows, the term - to put someone on the > spot - elicits the synonyms: > > embarass - humiliate - shame - inhibit - tease - degrade - crush - wither > - show up. > > > > if the intention was to praise the student, why then weren't words of > praise - for example: "Thank you for that question. I myself have wondered > about that evolution." > > > > i'm reminded of Foucault: People know what they do; frequently they know > why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they do > does." > > > > in Brandon Taylor's novel Real Life, the narrator notes that in social > gatherings when a white person makes a casually racist comment to a person > of color, the whites remain silent, preferring not to move out of their own > comfort level. really, nothing was lost in translation. > > > > from my perspective, there is too much protection here on xmca of both > white fragilities, as well as white hetero-normative male fragility. and > one way to work around this is practice - i humbly suggest - is that those > who self-identify as CIS white male could begin to point out points of view > that support white hetero-normative supremacy. the burden for this should > not be placed on those already socially marginalized. > > > > i'm reminded that in a class i taught for those working to get their > master's degree in education, that when i would assign Bryant Keith > Alexander's "(Re)Visioning the Ethnographic Site: Interpretive Ethnography > as a Method of Pedagogical Reflexivity and Scholarly Production" - in which > Alexander used the metaphor of pedagogy as drag - i would get blow-back > from some students complaining that since they had no personal contacts > with gay men, much-less gay men in drag, that they should not have to read > the ethnography. my response was that since they had no experience, this > was a good way to start since they had no knowledge of who their students > were, or their parents. Yet within their classroom, or school community > they worked in, there very well could be these life experiences. > > > > i'm feeling that i've written enough - this is such a richly complex topic. > > > > and so i'm grateful for Arturo's inadvertently public response - it was > illuminating. > > > > phillip > > > > > -- > > I[image: Image removed by sender. Angelus Novus] > The > Angel's View of History > > The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside. So > organisms create the conditions of their own future > which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin > > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!SPa321-GZ5HY7ae3wmaeN_u9ks700CRo6AM_RoECQgL49wf0jR8x4ajfhAuLNqCz7QWVNA$ > > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu > > . > > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > . > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!SPa321-GZ5HY7ae3wmaeN_u9ks700CRo6AM_RoECQgL49wf0jR8x4ajfhAuLNqDubLjgtg$ > > > > > > -- > > Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) > Associate Professor > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center > > Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping > University > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > Office: 2306 James Hall > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > -- > > Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) > Associate Professor > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center > > Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping > University > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > Office: 2306 James Hall > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > -- > > Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) > Associate Professor > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center > > Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping > University > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > Office: 2306 James Hall > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > -- > > To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!SPa321-GZ5HY7ae3wmaeN_u9ks700CRo6AM_RoECQgL49wf0jR8x4ajfhAuLNqDubLjgtg$ > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/651539cb/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 662 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/651539cb/attachment.jpg From helenaworthen@gmail.com Sat Nov 28 11:54:14 2020 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 11:54:14 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: keeping eyes open In-Reply-To: <1AFF7241-F182-4776-BD2C-164967F45A19@cantab.net> References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> <1AFF7241-F182-4776-BD2C-164967F45A19@cantab.net> Message-ID: <47B21A0F-CCA3-404C-AEF3-CE638F56DE8E@gmail.com> Hello, dear xmca friends, I intend this as a pivot from changing the voices on this list to passing on that change to the transformed institutions of higher ed that will emerge out of the pandemic. I?ll begin with a funny story: A long time ago (late 1990?s - 1998?) the issue of women?s voices on xmca came up. This happens fairly regularly, because of the historic white male composition of the academic workforce. The women among us ? Eva Ekblad was one of our leaders ? seceded to form our own group and engaged in an intense discussion that shifted back and forth from the women?s movement to left politics and, ultimately, ran smack into a disagreement about whether Marx said X or Y about something we didn?t know. So?we invited Andy Blunden, who even then appeared to know a lot, into our group to answer the question, which he did quickly and thoroughly, with a chain of quotes. At that point, feeling that I had been hit by a hammer from Mr. Know-it-all, quit the group. I was so embarassed to find out that he had simply done a search on the Marxist archives! Looking back more than 20 years ? a generation! ? I realize that I am responding to Diana?s comment, "Who gets to be the knower, and who is relegated to making mistakes or missing intentions?? So I am still here, Andy is still here, he's much better in 2020 about answering questions, and I am less defensive about what I don?t know. There are others of my generation around, too, probably wondering how to contribute without seeming to dominate, but the pool of collective knowledge is big; the ripples keep going a long time, which is good. It recovers without healing! But around us, the world is changing fast, especially the material world of higher ed. I am glad to see us talking openly about jobs and how respect and status on this list not only buys us the right to be listened to and learn, but can translate into practical things like getting an interview for an academic position or a promotion which may lead to a publication or funding for doing research to say nothing of buying groceries and paying rent. I am glad to see this laid out there. The pandemic has shaken up the higher ed institutions where academic jobs are situated; hiring is frozen everywhere I know (CUNY has laid off thousands of adjuncts ? Beth?) and students are taking semesters off because they doubt what kind of learning is really taking place in the zoom classroom that they?re paying for. Small non-profit institutions are going bankrupt. Public budgets are bottoming out. I think reconstituted higher ed will will have to answer to the question, what kind of learning do we really need? What is the essential work of higher ed? In the old classroom? With credits, certifications and degrees? If not, where? How? Who answers these questions is very important. On this list, we can answer those questions with assertions about not just the content of Education (yes, capital E) but also what the minimum requirements are to get that done ? just like the way healthcare workers are doing, and other workforces that didn?t seem so essential a year ago ? warehouse workers, farmers, etc. Oh, police, come to think of it, after their own fashion. I realize this post may seem to be coming out of nowhere. My academic position at the U of Illinois was in a field equally as marginal as ethnic studies ? labor education, where people take classes in how to organize a union and protect workers, believe it or not. Like ethnic studies, labor ed programs are low-hanging fruit to get eliminated in budget cuts and are hard to advocate for. But their base is in the community, not in tuition-paying traditional students, so they may actually do better now. Since I retired, I have been looking for ways to continue teaching outside US academia. It?s not easy. But this explains our semesters in Vietnam, a lot of writing, leading some reading groups, etc. - not in the classroom. So what does learning look like if it is not taking place in traditional institutions of higher ed? Institutions that may look very different once (and if) we get past this pandemic and its restrictions on wet social interaction? (Wet meaning in-person, right? As in hardware, software, wetware?.) I think that one place to look to answer that question is on this list.What individuals earn (status, respect, recongition, opportunities) by their participation in this list may not pay off in traditional ways because the industry is changing. But it may actually pay off better under the new conditions, what ever they are. What do others think? (Do others recognize this as a salute to Eugene Matusov?) Helena Helena Worthen hworthen@illinois.edu retired 21 San Mateo Road Berkeley, CA 94707 510-828-2745 > On Nov 28, 2020, at 10:11 AM, Martin Packer wrote: > > Perhaps helpful? (If the attachment gets through?) > > Martin > > "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) > > > >> On Nov 28, 2020, at 12:56 PM, Diana Arya > wrote: >> >> Hello all, >> >> Acknowledging the emergence of multiple threads from the original ("why generations"), I selected this particular thread to build on Antti's encouragement to invite other voices in reimagining the purposes and practices of this listserv. I'm currently working on a manuscript that relates to what we can learn, how we can grow as scholars, when/if we view reality as the known unknown. We need diverse voices/insights/experiences to understand what's happening to whom, for what purposes and under what conditions. James Baldwin is a central voice in my piece; the following excerpt from the 1980 landmark essay Dark Days may be relevant to our discussion: >> >> Every human being born begins to be civilized the moment he or she is born. Since we all arrive here absolutely helpless, with no way of getting a decent meal or of moving from one place to another without human help (and human help exacts a human price), there is no way around that. But this is civilization with a small c. Civilization with a large C is something else again. So is education with a small e different from Education with a large E. In the lowercase, education refers to the relations that actually obtain among human beings. In the uppercase, it refers to power. ?James Baldwin, Dark Days, p.44 >> <> >> >> Perhaps we can use Baldwin's linguistic marker in making visible the power distinction of R/research practices. I find that the work of philosopher Kristie Dotson on what she calls epistemic oppression is also relevant. Who gets to be the knower, and who is relegated to making mistakes or missing intentions? Obviously power plays a role here. >> >> And now that some time has passed, I want to celebrate Arturo's intrepid engagement with this listserv. We have got to be willing to see HOW (not if) racism is instantiated in our discourse. We have been socialized in a world that values some groups of others, and such inequities seep into our languages, discourses, etc. And academia is not immune to racist ideologies. I believe that the real risk is acknowledging one's blind spots, and learning to see the world as it is. >> >> What do others think? >> >> Best, >> D >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 3:33 AM Antti Rajala > wrote: >> David and all, >> >> In my reading, the issue at stake is that over a long time, many people experience the XMCA list as unwelcoming. Instead of refocusing the issue to something else, I believe we all have a responsibility to recognize it as a problem, carefully listen to these voices and be open to a change in the power dynamics of this list. Zaza, Beth, and others have made a good start in suggesting concrete principles of where to start. >> >> Antti >> >> On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 at 12:56, David Kellogg > wrote: >> Zaza-- >> >> Dude, I don't really speak Russian either, as Nikolai and Anna will tell you (we only speak English). In my translation work I spend a lot more time on Google Translate than I would like, and that's why I burden the list with the queries you mention from time to time.. But I bet you speak Shona, or at least understand a little. >> >> So maybe you can help. I'm using this tune from the late great Tuku (Oliver Mtukudzi) in a class I am giving on sex education in Korea. I've been told that it doesn't really mention AIDS/HIV explicitly, and I get that--in fact, that's one of the reasons why I think it's useful for making certain parallels between pandemics and also discussing HPV and other issues I want to talk about. But I don't quite understand THIS verse--maybe you can help me? >> >> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye >> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma >> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >> Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana >> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >> Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana >> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >> >> So "Kana uinahwo utachiwana" means something like "If you get infected". But what is the reference to being raped by your roommate? >> >> On the subject of this thread. Like voter fraud, racism is a very serious charge, and the right has successfully made hay out of its seriousness. But as with voter fraud they have made even more hay out of rendering the charge unproveable, by removing its class content and rendering it a purely subjective inclination. This is why, I think (I hope), Arturo and others tend to raise this sort of thing in private off-list material that is so much at variance with their public writings that it fairly attracts the charge of hypocrisy or at least political timidity. After all, if you really suspect your interlocutor of racism, it's incumbent on you to keep your mouth and not just your eyes open. But you've got to put money where your mouth is: you have to provide some evidence (e.g. the paper that Harshad circulated on the list not too long ago). There are important scientific issues we need to discuss which are actually not unrelated to the one that Arturo was reacting to: whether you can accurately judge the language proficiency of a person by their race or national origin (as I have done in the second paragraph above). Not unrelated. But not identical to either, else I would not have written that paragraph. >> >> Here's an example. A dear colleague of mine, who like the vast majority of people in this country is not white and wouldn't know deficit linguistics from a surplus, has just written a paper on why Korean children tend to drop articles (i.e. "a" and "the"). He begins with the Chomskyan premise that all nouns must, according to universal human grammars which are hardwired at birth, be realized by "determiner phrases". What that means is that a noun phrase like "the cat" is not really about a cat--it's about "the", and the "the" is modified by "cat" (What kind of "the-ness" do you mean? The cat kind!) >> >> But it's THIS, and not Vygotskyan, Hallidayan, or Bernsteinian developmentalism, that is deficit linguistics. I won't say it is racist, because unfortunately that term has lost its scientific content and become nothing but a thought crime. But I will say that people who speak languages without articles or languages that emphasize nouns over determiners (e.g. Korean, Chinese, Russian) are not born with a birth defect (or "null spell out", as the Chomskyans say). >> >> Does Shona have articles or not? Do you know? >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY0JssD8Hzc__;!!Mih3wA!TLGCMbzodKYAh5mU_IFvccPPotiOHcGs3vSR-R5icWL2pOzDCWuuWitrveQumSx3d3Q3AQ$ >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Book with Nikolai Veresov >> L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology >> Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai Veresov >> See free downloadable pdf at: >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!TLGCMbzodKYAh5mU_IFvccPPotiOHcGs3vSR-R5icWL2pOzDCWuuWitrveQumSysysnzxQ$ >> >> Forthcoming in 2020: >> L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. >> Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David Kellogg >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 6:02 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: >> >> P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject matter of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the development of human higher psychological functions. (How that is "left," "right," or otherwise is beyond me.) >> >> Political propensities can be discerned across some (adult) developmental stages. >> >> Huw >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nothing can be changed until it is faced. (James Baldwin) >> >> Diana J. Arya, PhD >> she/her/hers/they/them/theirs >> Associate Professor and Graduate Diversity Officer, Education >> Faculty Director, McEnroe Reading and Language Arts Clinic >> Gevirtz Graduate School of Education >> University of California, Santa Barbara >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.cbleducation.org__;!!Mih3wA!TLGCMbzodKYAh5mU_IFvccPPotiOHcGs3vSR-R5icWL2pOzDCWuuWitrveQumSz3I9wCPg$ >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/aae331e2/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Laland 2020 Racism in academia, and why the ?little things? matter.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 315694 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/aae331e2/attachment.pdf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/aae331e2/attachment-0001.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Sat Nov 28 12:32:05 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 15:32:05 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] How much fun are we having . . . Message-ID: Recently, a small spat has spun into an interesting larger discussion, and mostly productive at that. The whole spat, however, began with a misunderstanding. When sharing the "Why generations?" video, Andy was alluding, lightly and positively, to a previous video where he himself was "put on the spot" (ironically enough in a post titled "Let's have some fun! "). In my family, from childhood onward, 'on the spot' always had a positive, even playful connotation. (Maybe it's an italian-american thing?) Sadly, the initial offer of fun, three weeks ago, was hardly taken up, save for a brief, interesting response from Huw Lloyd. But the party shouldn't end, and the open-ended question remains: > *How would YOU explain Vygotsky's theory for a general audience -- e.g., > parents, teachers, coaches, relatives -- without sacrificing too much > accuracy?* Andy gave it a nice go, without advanced warning (i.e., 'on the spot'). I think it's a pretty hard question, and maybe a poorly asked one -- but what if many of us weighed in and gave it a shot? It'd probably be less hard then, and certainly interesting (and likely beneficial to anyone looking to share Vygotsky's work in various settings beyond academe) ---> "the pool of collective knowledge is big," perhaps even *oceanic*. No one wants my advice, but this would be it: assume you have something worth saying and also that it might not come out as well as you'd like AND that people will want to hear it anyway, and even more importantly, that the momentum of having many voices contribute will be worth as much (probably more) than any individual contribution (i.e., literally no pressure). Give it a shot here, maybe even in video-form if you'd like: "An Audience Participation Question . . . Let's Have Some Fun!" <> (I kid, I kid!) There are other good videos over at CulturalPraxis -- and hopefully, the uptick in xmca engagement will spill over to there as well (the more the merrier). As Natalia Gajdamaschko has suggested, "development comes out of resolving some sort of contradiction..some type of crisis -- a good crisis ." Enjoy, Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/def19233/attachment.html From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Sat Nov 28 14:40:23 2020 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 22:40:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: keeping eyes open In-Reply-To: <47B21A0F-CCA3-404C-AEF3-CE638F56DE8E@gmail.com> References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> <1AFF7241-F182-4776-BD2C-164967F45A19@cantab.net>, <47B21A0F-CCA3-404C-AEF3-CE638F56DE8E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Helena, your story brings into focus for me, as have Mike's comments about xmca history, about the importance of institutional knowledge and history found within the memories of the elder community participants. thanks! phillip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/06f8bbd3/attachment.html From helenaworthen@gmail.com Sat Nov 28 15:02:24 2020 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 15:02:24 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: How much fun are we having . . . In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anthony, I am going to try taking you up on your challenge. > How would YOU explain Vygotsky's theory for a general audience -- e.g., parents, teachers, coaches, relatives -- without sacrificing too much accuracy? I did this, of course, in my book, What Did You Learn at Work Today? The Forbidden Lessons of Labor Education, published by Hardball Press in 2014. Note the prestigious academic press ? and it only costs $15!!!! But I will boil it down to the 5-minute schpiel that I would give in my classes to union members whose second question, after ?How did you learn to do labor education?? would be, ?How can I get your job?? Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com helenaworthen.wordpress.com check your registration at vote.gov > On Nov 28, 2020, at 12:32 PM, Anthony Barra wrote: > > Recently, a small spat has spun into an interesting larger discussion, and mostly productive at that. > > The whole spat, however, began with a misunderstanding. When sharing the "Why generations?" video, Andy was alluding, lightly and positively, to a previous video where he himself was "put on the spot" (ironically enough in a post titled "Let's have some fun! "). In my family, from childhood onward, 'on the spot' always had a positive, even playful connotation. (Maybe it's an italian-american thing?) > > Sadly, the initial offer of fun, three weeks ago, was hardly taken up, save for a brief, interesting response from Huw Lloyd. But the party shouldn't end, and the open-ended question remains: > How would YOU explain Vygotsky's theory for a general audience -- e.g., parents, teachers, coaches, relatives -- without sacrificing too much accuracy? > > Andy gave it a nice go, without advanced warning (i.e., 'on the spot'). I think it's a pretty hard question, and maybe a poorly asked one -- but what if many of us weighed in and gave it a shot? It'd probably be less hard then, and certainly interesting (and likely beneficial to anyone looking to share Vygotsky's work in various settings beyond academe) ---> "the pool of collective knowledge is big," perhaps even oceanic. > > No one wants my advice, but this would be it: assume you have something worth saying and also that it might not come out as well as you'd like AND that people will want to hear it anyway, and even more importantly, that the momentum of having many voices contribute will be worth as much (probably more) than any individual contribution (i.e., literally no pressure). > > Give it a shot here, maybe even in video-form if you'd like: "An Audience Participation Question . . . Let's Have Some Fun!" <> (I kid, I kid!) > > There are other good videos over at CulturalPraxis -- and hopefully, the uptick in xmca engagement will spill over to there as well (the more the merrier). > > As Natalia Gajdamaschko has suggested, "development comes out of resolving some sort of contradiction..some type of crisis -- a good crisis ." > > Enjoy, > > Anthony > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201128/c7768ffe/attachment.html From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Sat Nov 28 16:19:04 2020 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (Larry Smolucha) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 00:19:04 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: keeping eyes open In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> , Message-ID: >From Francine: Why XMCA ? For some people, it is still valuable as a resource for information, citations, etc. Some people, see it as a forum to promote political activism. Dare I ask - how Anna knows what Vygotsky would have thought of Defund the Police? or what the basis is for claiming Vygotsky was a political activist in 1917? For a long time, discussions on XMCA have had little to do with Vygotsky or Activity Theory. The very esoteric philosophical debates involve a shrinking number of people. The stifling of discursive inquiry into Vygotsky's writings is not unique to XMCA. It has a long history - discussed in the paper that my husband and I have in press. Decrying colonialism, racism, sexism, doesn't address the oppression of free thinking people by members of their own culture, race, and sex. Was Vygotsky a biased white male heterosexual promoting European colonialism? As a Jew he was discriminated against under the Czarist regime. His writings were banned by Stalin - who was Georgian not ethnic Russian. (Dare I ask - is Stalin a white man?) As Vygotsky's writings became of interest in the West, there emerged a small group of experts who took it upon themselves to stifle creative exploration of Vygotsky's ideas. My entire career has consisted of being told by the 'experts' what Vygotsky thought, only to find that the actual texts did not support their interpretations (I was able to read Russian). Challenging the 'establishment' did not lead to a prestigious academic appointment, but then it didn't for Vygotsky either. What do the other marginalized members of XMCA want to know, to explore, to contribute? Or is XMCA just to be hijacked as forum for political grievances? ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Diana Arya Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2020 11:56 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: keeping eyes open Hello all, Acknowledging the emergence of multiple threads from the original ("why generations"), I selected this particular thread to build on Antti's encouragement to invite other voices in reimagining the purposes and practices of this listserv. I'm currently working on a manuscript that relates to what we can learn, how we can grow as scholars, when/if we view reality as the known unknown. We need diverse voices/insights/experiences to understand what's happening to whom, for what purposes and under what conditions. James Baldwin is a central voice in my piece; the following excerpt from the 1980 landmark essay Dark Days may be relevant to our discussion: Every human being born begins to be civilized the moment he or she is born. Since we all arrive here absolutely helpless, with no way of getting a decent meal or of moving from one place to another without human help (and human help exacts a human price), there is no way around that. But this is civilization with a small c. Civilization with a large C is something else again. So is education with a small e different from Education with a large E. In the lowercase, education refers to the relations that actually obtain among human beings. In the uppercase, it refers to power. ?James Baldwin, Dark Days, p.44 Perhaps we can use Baldwin's linguistic marker in making visible the power distinction of R/research practices. I find that the work of philosopher Kristie Dotson on what she calls epistemic oppression is also relevant. Who gets to be the knower, and who is relegated to making mistakes or missing intentions? Obviously power plays a role here. And now that some time has passed, I want to celebrate Arturo's intrepid engagement with this listserv. We have got to be willing to see HOW (not if) racism is instantiated in our discourse. We have been socialized in a world that values some groups of others, and such inequities seep into our languages, discourses, etc. And academia is not immune to racist ideologies. I believe that the real risk is acknowledging one's blind spots, and learning to see the world as it is. What do others think? Best, D On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 3:33 AM Antti Rajala > wrote: David and all, In my reading, the issue at stake is that over a long time, many people experience the XMCA list as unwelcoming. Instead of refocusing the issue to something else, I believe we all have a responsibility to recognize it as a problem, carefully listen to these voices and be open to a change in the power dynamics of this list. Zaza, Beth, and others have made a good start in suggesting concrete principles of where to start. Antti On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 at 12:56, David Kellogg > wrote: Zaza-- Dude, I don't really speak Russian either, as Nikolai and Anna will tell you (we only speak English). In my translation work I spend a lot more time on Google Translate than I would like, and that's why I burden the list with the queries you mention from time to time.. But I bet you speak Shona, or at least understand a little. So maybe you can help. I'm using this tune from the late great Tuku (Oliver Mtukudzi) in a class I am giving on sex education in Korea. I've been told that it doesn't really mention AIDS/HIV explicitly, and I get that--in fact, that's one of the reasons why I think it's useful for making certain parallels between pandemics and also discussing HPV and other issues I want to talk about. But I don't quite understand THIS verse--maybe you can help me? Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) So "Kana uinahwo utachiwana" means something like "If you get infected". But what is the reference to being raped by your roommate? On the subject of this thread. Like voter fraud, racism is a very serious charge, and the right has successfully made hay out of its seriousness. But as with voter fraud they have made even more hay out of rendering the charge unproveable, by removing its class content and rendering it a purely subjective inclination. This is why, I think (I hope), Arturo and others tend to raise this sort of thing in private off-list material that is so much at variance with their public writings that it fairly attracts the charge of hypocrisy or at least political timidity. After all, if you really suspect your interlocutor of racism, it's incumbent on you to keep your mouth and not just your eyes open. But you've got to put money where your mouth is: you have to provide some evidence (e.g. the paper that Harshad circulated on the list not too long ago). There are important scientific issues we need to discuss which are actually not unrelated to the one that Arturo was reacting to: whether you can accurately judge the language proficiency of a person by their race or national origin (as I have done in the second paragraph above). Not unrelated. But not identical to either, else I would not have written that paragraph. Here's an example. A dear colleague of mine, who like the vast majority of people in this country is not white and wouldn't know deficit linguistics from a surplus, has just written a paper on why Korean children tend to drop articles (i.e. "a" and "the"). He begins with the Chomskyan premise that all nouns must, according to universal human grammars which are hardwired at birth, be realized by "determiner phrases". What that means is that a noun phrase like "the cat" is not really about a cat--it's about "the", and the "the" is modified by "cat" (What kind of "the-ness" do you mean? The cat kind!) But it's THIS, and not Vygotskyan, Hallidayan, or Bernsteinian developmentalism, that is deficit linguistics. I won't say it is racist, because unfortunately that term has lost its scientific content and become nothing but a thought crime. But I will say that people who speak languages without articles or languages that emphasize nouns over determiners (e.g. Korean, Chinese, Russian) are not born with a birth defect (or "null spell out", as the Chomskyans say). Does Shona have articles or not? Do you know? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY0JssD8Hzc__;!!Mih3wA!VuWlCstk2l9swuW_ofTGpwBjTRzUup-wqLeBxpV4citwQL7L5E_43uPZBLwUyOpRBhXwDw$ David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Book with Nikolai Veresov L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai Veresov See free downloadable pdf at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!VuWlCstk2l9swuW_ofTGpwBjTRzUup-wqLeBxpV4citwQL7L5E_43uPZBLwUyOoCJCBE4A$ Forthcoming in 2020: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David Kellogg On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 6:02 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject matter of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the development of human higher psychological functions. (How that is "left," "right," or otherwise is beyond me.) Political propensities can be discerned across some (adult) developmental stages. Huw -- Nothing can be changed until it is faced. (James Baldwin) Diana J. Arya, PhD she/her/hers/they/them/theirs Associate Professor and Graduate Diversity Officer, Education Faculty Director, McEnroe Reading and Language Arts Clinic Gevirtz Graduate School of Education University of California, Santa Barbara https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.cbleducation.org__;!!Mih3wA!VuWlCstk2l9swuW_ofTGpwBjTRzUup-wqLeBxpV4citwQL7L5E_43uPZBLwUyOrvlLQOMw$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201129/070a81d5/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Nov 28 17:33:15 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 10:33:15 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: keeping eyes open In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> Message-ID: Francine-- You are, of course, right--Vygotsky was a member of a ruthlessly disenfranchised and brutalized minority. For that very reason, his first experience of political activism was probably through his father's activism. Semyon Vygodsky participated in a self-protection militia during the terrible pogroms of Czarist Russia and was called as a witness when the "Black Hundreds" attempted to disarm the militia. "Defund the Police" is not enough, although it is a clear and distinct recognition that from the point of view of their black victims the police are not the solution to crime but rather an ever-present part of the problem. But "Defund the Police" is only a first step. The next step, which has to follow on very quickly in places like my hometown Minneapolis and Chicago, is that people like Semyon Vygodsky have to step forward and organize their replacement. Vygotsky would have supported it--you might even say, it was a family tradition. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Book with Nikolai Veresov L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai Veresov See free downloadable pdf at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!SznFDdRMey4A9pFrdeA-TO_c1iGc1kwfQxP8P5FwNKC6NUgNDgHlm5stviYGom8zEiL9mw$ Forthcoming in 2020: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David Kellogg On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 9:21 AM Larry Smolucha wrote: > >From Francine: > > Why XMCA ? > > For some people, it is still valuable as a resource for information, > citations, etc. > > Some people, see it as a forum to promote political activism. > Dare I ask - how Anna knows what Vygotsky would have thought of Defund the > Police? > or what the basis is for claiming Vygotsky was a political activist in > 1917? > > For a long time, discussions on XMCA have had little to do with Vygotsky > or Activity Theory. > The very esoteric philosophical debates involve a shrinking number of > people. > > The stifling of discursive inquiry into Vygotsky's writings is not unique > to XMCA. It has a long history - discussed in the paper that my husband and > I have in press. Decrying colonialism, racism, sexism, doesn't address the > oppression of free thinking people by members of their own culture, race, > and sex. Was Vygotsky a biased white male heterosexual promoting European > colonialism? As a Jew he was discriminated against under the Czarist > regime. His writings were banned by Stalin - who was Georgian not ethnic > Russian. (Dare I ask - is Stalin a white man?) > > As Vygotsky's writings became of interest in the West, there emerged a > small group of experts who took it upon themselves to stifle creative > exploration of Vygotsky's ideas. > My entire career has consisted of being told by the 'experts' what > Vygotsky thought, only to find that the actual texts did not support their > interpretations (I was able to read Russian). > Challenging the 'establishment' did not lead to a prestigious academic > appointment, but then it didn't for Vygotsky either. > > What do the other marginalized members of XMCA want to know, to explore, > to contribute? > > > Or is XMCA just to be hijacked as forum for political grievances? > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Diana Arya > *Sent:* Saturday, November 28, 2020 11:56 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: keeping eyes open > > Hello all, > > Acknowledging the emergence of multiple threads from the original ("why > generations"), I selected this particular thread to build on Antti's > encouragement to invite other voices in reimagining the purposes and > practices of this listserv. I'm currently working on a manuscript that > relates to what we can learn, how we can grow as scholars, when/if we view > reality as the *known unknown. *We need diverse > voices/insights/experiences to understand what's happening to whom, for > what purposes and under what conditions. James Baldwin is a central voice > in my piece; the following excerpt from the 1980 landmark essay *Dark > Days *may be relevant to our discussion: > > Every human being born begins to be *civilized* the moment he or she is > born. Since we all arrive here absolutely helpless, with no way of getting > a decent meal or of moving from one place to another without human help > (and human help exacts a human price), there is no way around that. But > this is civilization with a small *c*. Civilization with a large *C* is > something else again. So is education with a small *e* different from > Education with a large E. In the lowercase, education refers to the > relations that actually obtain among human beings. In the uppercase, it > refers to power. ?James Baldwin, *Dark Days*, p.44 > > > Perhaps we can use Baldwin's linguistic marker in making visible the power > distinction of R/research practices. I find that the work of philosopher > Kristie Dotson on what she calls *epistemic oppression* is also relevant. > Who gets to be the *knower, *and who is relegated to making mistakes or > missing intentions? Obviously power plays a role here. > > And now that some time has passed, I want to celebrate Arturo's intrepid > engagement with this listserv. We have got to be willing to see *HOW* > (not if) racism is instantiated in our discourse. We have been socialized > in a world that values some groups of others, and such inequities seep into > our languages, discourses, etc. And academia is not immune to racist > ideologies. I believe that the real risk is acknowledging one's blind > spots, and learning to see the world as it is. > > What do others think? > > Best, > D > > > On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 3:33 AM Antti Rajala wrote: > > David and all, > > In my reading, the issue at stake is that over a long time, many people > experience the XMCA list as unwelcoming. Instead of refocusing the issue to > something else, I believe we all have a responsibility to recognize it as a > problem, carefully listen to these voices and be open to a change in the > power dynamics of this list. Zaza, Beth, and others have made a good start > in suggesting concrete principles of where to start. > > Antti > > On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 at 12:56, David Kellogg wrote: > > Zaza-- > > Dude, I don't really speak Russian either, as Nikolai and Anna will tell > you (we only speak English). In my translation work I spend a lot more time > on Google Translate than I would like, and that's why I burden the list > with the queries you mention from time to time.. But I bet you speak Shona, > or at least understand a little. > > So maybe you can help. I'm using this tune from the late great Tuku > (Oliver Mtukudzi) in a class I am giving on sex education in Korea. I've > been told that it doesn't really mention AIDS/HIV explicitly, and I get > that--in fact, that's one of the reasons why I think it's useful for making > certain parallels between pandemics and also discussing HPV and other > issues I want to talk about. But I don't quite understand THIS verse--maybe > you can help me? > > Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > > So "Kana uinahwo utachiwana" means something like "If you get infected". > But what is the reference to being raped by your roommate? > > On the subject of this thread. Like voter fraud, racism is a very serious > charge, and the right has successfully made hay out of its seriousness. But > as with voter fraud they have made even more hay out of rendering the > charge unproveable, by removing its class content and rendering it a purely > subjective inclination. This is why, I think (I hope), Arturo and others > tend to raise this sort of thing in private off-list material that is so > much at variance with their public writings that it fairly attracts the > charge of hypocrisy or at least political timidity. After all, if you > really suspect your interlocutor of racism, it's incumbent on you to keep > your mouth and not just your eyes open. But you've got to put money where > your mouth is: you have to provide some evidence (e.g. the paper that > Harshad circulated on the list not too long ago). There are important > scientific issues we need to discuss which are actually not unrelated to > the one that Arturo was reacting to: whether you can accurately judge the > language proficiency of a person by their race or national origin (as I > have done in the second paragraph above). Not unrelated. But not identical > to either, else I would not have written that paragraph. > > Here's an example. A dear colleague of mine, who like the vast majority of > people in this country is not white and wouldn't know deficit linguistics > from a surplus, has just written a paper on why Korean children tend to > drop articles (i.e. "a" and "the"). He begins with the Chomskyan premise > that all nouns must, according to universal human grammars which are > hardwired at birth, be realized by "determiner phrases". What that means is > that a noun phrase like "the cat" is not really about a cat--it's about > "the", and the "the" is modified by "cat" (What kind of "the-ness" do you > mean? The cat kind!) > > But it's THIS, and not Vygotskyan, Hallidayan, or Bernsteinian > developmentalism, that is deficit linguistics. I won't say it is racist, > because unfortunately that term has lost its scientific content and become > nothing but a thought crime. But I will say that people who speak languages > without articles or languages that emphasize nouns over determiners (e.g. > Korean, Chinese, Russian) are not born with a birth defect (or "null spell > out", as the Chomskyans say). > > Does Shona have articles or not? Do you know? > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY0JssD8Hzc__;!!Mih3wA!SznFDdRMey4A9pFrdeA-TO_c1iGc1kwfQxP8P5FwNKC6NUgNDgHlm5stviYGom8ebfPqYQ$ > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Book with Nikolai Veresov > L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology > Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai > Veresov > See free downloadable pdf at: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!SznFDdRMey4A9pFrdeA-TO_c1iGc1kwfQxP8P5FwNKC6NUgNDgHlm5stviYGom8zEiL9mw$ > > > Forthcoming in 2020: > L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. > Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David > Kellogg > > > On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 6:02 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject matter > of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the *development of human > higher psychological functions*. (How that is "left," "right," or > otherwise is beyond me.) > > > Political propensities can be discerned across some (adult) developmental > stages. > > Huw > > > > > > -- > *Nothing can be changed until it is faced. *(James Baldwin) > > Diana J. Arya, PhD > she/her/hers/they/them/theirs > Associate Professor and Graduate Diversity Officer, Education > Faculty Director, McEnroe Reading and Language Arts Clinic > Gevirtz Graduate School of Education > University of California, Santa Barbara > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.cbleducation.org__;!!Mih3wA!SznFDdRMey4A9pFrdeA-TO_c1iGc1kwfQxP8P5FwNKC6NUgNDgHlm5stviYGom-Vd1csyw$ > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201129/0bc49bce/attachment.html From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Sat Nov 28 18:16:59 2020 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (Larry Smolucha) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 02:16:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: keeping eyes open In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> , Message-ID: >From Francine: Notice the irony in Semyon Vygodsky's 'heroism' in participating in a self-protection militia and how the term militia has become a pejorative in contemporary America. I seem to recall reading that Semyon had a gun and was ready to defend his family from a home invasion during that pogrom. Are the riots that destroy small shops in American cities a type of pogrom? Are the shopkeepers who are beaten trying to stop the looting just trying to provide for their families like Semyon? Yes, Vygotsky is dangerous but not for the reasons you might think. His developmental model leads to the development of independent, innovative thinkers. He was a social activist but not 'a party member', dying a month before his trial for 'politically incorrect' thinking. ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2020 7:33 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: keeping eyes open Francine-- You are, of course, right--Vygotsky was a member of a ruthlessly disenfranchised and brutalized minority. For that very reason, his first experience of political activism was probably through his father's activism. Semyon Vygodsky participated in a self-protection militia during the terrible pogroms of Czarist Russia and was called as a witness when the "Black Hundreds" attempted to disarm the militia. "Defund the Police" is not enough, although it is a clear and distinct recognition that from the point of view of their black victims the police are not the solution to crime but rather an ever-present part of the problem. But "Defund the Police" is only a first step. The next step, which has to follow on very quickly in places like my hometown Minneapolis and Chicago, is that people like Semyon Vygodsky have to step forward and organize their replacement. Vygotsky would have supported it--you might even say, it was a family tradition. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Book with Nikolai Veresov L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai Veresov See free downloadable pdf at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!UfJpaG7tqyb04-UZxq-LiC94bHjDdHNgxU7ESlyZ2BjaK6q9cgwr6bkqFaqsNpC8cHBvUQ$ Forthcoming in 2020: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David Kellogg On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 9:21 AM Larry Smolucha > wrote: >From Francine: Why XMCA ? For some people, it is still valuable as a resource for information, citations, etc. Some people, see it as a forum to promote political activism. Dare I ask - how Anna knows what Vygotsky would have thought of Defund the Police? or what the basis is for claiming Vygotsky was a political activist in 1917? For a long time, discussions on XMCA have had little to do with Vygotsky or Activity Theory. The very esoteric philosophical debates involve a shrinking number of people. The stifling of discursive inquiry into Vygotsky's writings is not unique to XMCA. It has a long history - discussed in the paper that my husband and I have in press. Decrying colonialism, racism, sexism, doesn't address the oppression of free thinking people by members of their own culture, race, and sex. Was Vygotsky a biased white male heterosexual promoting European colonialism? As a Jew he was discriminated against under the Czarist regime. His writings were banned by Stalin - who was Georgian not ethnic Russian. (Dare I ask - is Stalin a white man?) As Vygotsky's writings became of interest in the West, there emerged a small group of experts who took it upon themselves to stifle creative exploration of Vygotsky's ideas. My entire career has consisted of being told by the 'experts' what Vygotsky thought, only to find that the actual texts did not support their interpretations (I was able to read Russian). Challenging the 'establishment' did not lead to a prestigious academic appointment, but then it didn't for Vygotsky either. What do the other marginalized members of XMCA want to know, to explore, to contribute? Or is XMCA just to be hijacked as forum for political grievances? ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Diana Arya > Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2020 11:56 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: keeping eyes open Hello all, Acknowledging the emergence of multiple threads from the original ("why generations"), I selected this particular thread to build on Antti's encouragement to invite other voices in reimagining the purposes and practices of this listserv. I'm currently working on a manuscript that relates to what we can learn, how we can grow as scholars, when/if we view reality as the known unknown. We need diverse voices/insights/experiences to understand what's happening to whom, for what purposes and under what conditions. James Baldwin is a central voice in my piece; the following excerpt from the 1980 landmark essay Dark Days may be relevant to our discussion: Every human being born begins to be civilized the moment he or she is born. Since we all arrive here absolutely helpless, with no way of getting a decent meal or of moving from one place to another without human help (and human help exacts a human price), there is no way around that. But this is civilization with a small c. Civilization with a large C is something else again. So is education with a small e different from Education with a large E. In the lowercase, education refers to the relations that actually obtain among human beings. In the uppercase, it refers to power. ?James Baldwin, Dark Days, p.44 Perhaps we can use Baldwin's linguistic marker in making visible the power distinction of R/research practices. I find that the work of philosopher Kristie Dotson on what she calls epistemic oppression is also relevant. Who gets to be the knower, and who is relegated to making mistakes or missing intentions? Obviously power plays a role here. And now that some time has passed, I want to celebrate Arturo's intrepid engagement with this listserv. We have got to be willing to see HOW (not if) racism is instantiated in our discourse. We have been socialized in a world that values some groups of others, and such inequities seep into our languages, discourses, etc. And academia is not immune to racist ideologies. I believe that the real risk is acknowledging one's blind spots, and learning to see the world as it is. What do others think? Best, D On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 3:33 AM Antti Rajala > wrote: David and all, In my reading, the issue at stake is that over a long time, many people experience the XMCA list as unwelcoming. Instead of refocusing the issue to something else, I believe we all have a responsibility to recognize it as a problem, carefully listen to these voices and be open to a change in the power dynamics of this list. Zaza, Beth, and others have made a good start in suggesting concrete principles of where to start. Antti On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 at 12:56, David Kellogg > wrote: Zaza-- Dude, I don't really speak Russian either, as Nikolai and Anna will tell you (we only speak English). In my translation work I spend a lot more time on Google Translate than I would like, and that's why I burden the list with the queries you mention from time to time.. But I bet you speak Shona, or at least understand a little. So maybe you can help. I'm using this tune from the late great Tuku (Oliver Mtukudzi) in a class I am giving on sex education in Korea. I've been told that it doesn't really mention AIDS/HIV explicitly, and I get that--in fact, that's one of the reasons why I think it's useful for making certain parallels between pandemics and also discussing HPV and other issues I want to talk about. But I don't quite understand THIS verse--maybe you can help me? Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) So "Kana uinahwo utachiwana" means something like "If you get infected". But what is the reference to being raped by your roommate? On the subject of this thread. Like voter fraud, racism is a very serious charge, and the right has successfully made hay out of its seriousness. But as with voter fraud they have made even more hay out of rendering the charge unproveable, by removing its class content and rendering it a purely subjective inclination. This is why, I think (I hope), Arturo and others tend to raise this sort of thing in private off-list material that is so much at variance with their public writings that it fairly attracts the charge of hypocrisy or at least political timidity. After all, if you really suspect your interlocutor of racism, it's incumbent on you to keep your mouth and not just your eyes open. But you've got to put money where your mouth is: you have to provide some evidence (e.g. the paper that Harshad circulated on the list not too long ago). There are important scientific issues we need to discuss which are actually not unrelated to the one that Arturo was reacting to: whether you can accurately judge the language proficiency of a person by their race or national origin (as I have done in the second paragraph above). Not unrelated. But not identical to either, else I would not have written that paragraph. Here's an example. A dear colleague of mine, who like the vast majority of people in this country is not white and wouldn't know deficit linguistics from a surplus, has just written a paper on why Korean children tend to drop articles (i.e. "a" and "the"). He begins with the Chomskyan premise that all nouns must, according to universal human grammars which are hardwired at birth, be realized by "determiner phrases". What that means is that a noun phrase like "the cat" is not really about a cat--it's about "the", and the "the" is modified by "cat" (What kind of "the-ness" do you mean? The cat kind!) But it's THIS, and not Vygotskyan, Hallidayan, or Bernsteinian developmentalism, that is deficit linguistics. I won't say it is racist, because unfortunately that term has lost its scientific content and become nothing but a thought crime. But I will say that people who speak languages without articles or languages that emphasize nouns over determiners (e.g. Korean, Chinese, Russian) are not born with a birth defect (or "null spell out", as the Chomskyans say). Does Shona have articles or not? Do you know? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY0JssD8Hzc__;!!Mih3wA!UfJpaG7tqyb04-UZxq-LiC94bHjDdHNgxU7ESlyZ2BjaK6q9cgwr6bkqFaqsNpCg9RaIbA$ David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Book with Nikolai Veresov L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai Veresov See free downloadable pdf at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!UfJpaG7tqyb04-UZxq-LiC94bHjDdHNgxU7ESlyZ2BjaK6q9cgwr6bkqFaqsNpC8cHBvUQ$ Forthcoming in 2020: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David Kellogg On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 6:02 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject matter of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the development of human higher psychological functions. (How that is "left," "right," or otherwise is beyond me.) Political propensities can be discerned across some (adult) developmental stages. Huw -- Nothing can be changed until it is faced. (James Baldwin) Diana J. Arya, PhD she/her/hers/they/them/theirs Associate Professor and Graduate Diversity Officer, Education Faculty Director, McEnroe Reading and Language Arts Clinic Gevirtz Graduate School of Education University of California, Santa Barbara https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.cbleducation.org__;!!Mih3wA!UfJpaG7tqyb04-UZxq-LiC94bHjDdHNgxU7ESlyZ2BjaK6q9cgwr6bkqFaqsNpBbsVL42Q$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201129/b63f2d78/attachment.html From wendy.maples@outlook.com Sun Nov 29 02:36:02 2020 From: wendy.maples@outlook.com (Wendy Maples) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 10:36:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: How much fun are we having . . . In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks so much for this, Anthony. I'm game. In fact, I use a similar explanation a lot, so it would be interesting to hear to what extent Vygotskians think what I say is a mis-representation/complete travesty! The other day, I was in the position of explaining a Vygotskian approach (so perhaps already a mis-representation) to a parent volunteer at a learning centre for adults with learning difficulties. My starting premise is (always) 'start where the student is at' (the classic Open University credo), whatever that might mean, in whatever context. Then I explained the ZPD as that space between where the learner is now and where they could be with the right support (a good teacher, a good learning environment, appropriate equipment) and that what matters is getting that space 'right' -- judging what is too little/too much of a leap through that space to the learning achievement (whatever that might mean, in whatever context). Yes, there's more, but for me it's a starting point. Looking forward to others' insights! Best wishes, Wendy ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Anthony Barra Sent: 28 November 2020 20:32 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] How much fun are we having . . . Recently, a small spat has spun into an interesting larger discussion, and mostly productive at that. The whole spat, however, began with a misunderstanding. When sharing the "Why generations?" video, Andy was alluding, lightly and positively, to a previous video where he himself was "put on the spot" (ironically enough in a post titled "Let's have some fun!"). In my family, from childhood onward, 'on the spot' always had a positive, even playful connotation. (Maybe it's an italian-american thing?) Sadly, the initial offer of fun, three weeks ago, was hardly taken up, save for a brief, interesting response from Huw Lloyd. But the party shouldn't end, and the open-ended question remains: How would YOU explain Vygotsky's theory for a general audience -- e.g., parents, teachers, coaches, relatives -- without sacrificing too much accuracy? Andy gave it a nice go, without advanced warning (i.e., 'on the spot'). I think it's a pretty hard question, and maybe a poorly asked one -- but what if many of us weighed in and gave it a shot? It'd probably be less hard then, and certainly interesting (and likely beneficial to anyone looking to share Vygotsky's work in various settings beyond academe) ---> "the pool of collective knowledge is big," perhaps even oceanic. No one wants my advice, but this would be it: assume you have something worth saying and also that it might not come out as well as you'd like AND that people will want to hear it anyway, and even more importantly, that the momentum of having many voices contribute will be worth as much (probably more) than any individual contribution (i.e., literally no pressure). Give it a shot here, maybe even in video-form if you'd like: "An Audience Participation Question . . . Let's Have Some Fun!" <> (I kid, I kid!) There are other good videos over at CulturalPraxis -- and hopefully, the uptick in xmca engagement will spill over to there as well (the more the merrier). As Natalia Gajdamaschko has suggested, "development comes out of resolving some sort of contradiction..some type of crisis -- a good crisis." Enjoy, Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201129/1b3a1ded/attachment.html From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Sun Nov 29 11:01:12 2020 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 19:01:12 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: keeping eyes open In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> , , Message-ID: Francine - i found your posting to be very encouraging, particularly the call for a closer focus on Vygotsky & Activity Theory. and by that time i finished reading your posting i was reminded of the soviet label of cosmopolitanism - particularly where you imputed a "stifling" of Vygotsky's ideas. for me that seems far-fetched. i find it fair to believe that Vygotsky's determination to move away from behaviorism - a bane not just on soviet russian education but on american education as well - and it's prescriptive linear, stage based, black box based assumptions of learning to instead a learning theory based within a social relationship, a community historically grounded and with signs both physical and mental embedded within the situated cultural present, proleptically focused. this is why i found and still find Vygotsky so pertinent to my life's activity - parent, spouse, grandparent, friend, neighbor, confident, patron - all of the myriad of social relations within a wide range of legitimate peripheral participation - in which xmca is but one.(d) and this for me of course also involves (d)ecrying colonialism, racism, sexism". and while for you this "... doesn't address the oppression of free thinking people by members of their own culture, race, and sex", i see it as a start - and not a mere expression of "political grievances". as for Vygotsky, of course he is going to be a man of his time - and as such blind to certain oppressions endemic to the Soviet Russian socio-political-educational structure at the time. just as we all are now. and frankly, i don't think that state of social relations is going to be able to support "free thinking" - that for us, as it was for Vygotsky and, say, Spinosa - an idea which will always rest of the razor's edge of - to use James Wertsch's description - an irreducible tension. and always xmca is going to be operating with a degrees of irreducible tension. and i shall consider your question - what do we want to know, explore, contribute. well, this is my contribution: many thanks, Francine, for yours. as Eugene would suggest - half-baked ideas here - what do you think? phillip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201129/6d9e1cef/attachment.html From zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com Sun Nov 29 12:26:32 2020 From: zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com (Zaza Kabayadondo) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 12:26:32 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Translations - Shona and Russian In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> Message-ID: I'm moving this to a new thread... Thank you for your question, David. I didn't realize people were using Google Translate. It's great for some languages - not so much for anything from Southern Africa at least as far as I've observed. Yes, I do speak Shona. I like to distinguish between functional Shona and idiomatic Shona. Functional Shona is literal and idiomatic Shona is literary (though spoken). I'm not a Shona linguist so I'm making up terms for the distinction I perceive but there might already be a convention for how Shona linguists describe the difference. Functional Shona is what you will hear people using on the streets. It is a more literal or explicit way of speaking and very similar to European meaning and sensemaking. In functional Shona you might say "I am tired." "She arrived yesterday." It some contexts it is considered rather crass to speak so directly of your feelings, wants, needs. I contrast this to idiomatic Shona which is a version of the language our elders spoke, it reflects pre-colonial Shona culture and thinking because it "beats around the bush". You would rarely directly ask a question, everything was a metaphor, a vague suggestion, never explicitly spelt out. It is more diplomatic, more evasive, and can be problematic when it comes to talking about social or political issues. Tuku sings in this idiomatic style. Tuku's song *Bvuma* is the best example of his style of which allows for double entendre (He is saying "Tolerance has faded" but he could also mean "Just accept that you're old." Todii is about HIV/AIDS. Originally, "utachiwana" meant any virus or germ, the underlying cause of an illness, but over time the only virus people talk about is HIV. (In "Hutachiwana" the "h" is a modifier emphasizes you mean "the virus"). The style is call-and-response which is typical in Shona folk music, both traditional and contemporary. The call and its response should be read as one sentence. As for the lyrics in question: Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) *Translation: How it must hurt to be raped by the one you live with...**If you have a virus * Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma** ...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) *Translation:** How it must hurt to be raped by the man** who married you ...**If you have a virus * **The literal meaning is "by the one who paid roora (lobola/bride price)" Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) *Translation: When he knows you have the virus...If you have a virus* Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) *Translation: **And you know you have the virus...If you have a virus* In the last two lines the response almost implies "hypothetically, let's say you have a virus." And for me this is really where the song touches on the sensibility of HIV/AIDS as it was experienced in Zimbabwe in the moment of the song. Not knowing who has it, suspecting who has it etc. Tuku was masterful with his play on words and structure. On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 2:56 AM David Kellogg wrote: > Zaza-- > > Dude, I don't really speak Russian either, as Nikolai and Anna will tell > you (we only speak English). In my translation work I spend a lot more time > on Google Translate than I would like, and that's why I burden the list > with the queries you mention from time to time.. But I bet you speak Shona, > or at least understand a little. > > So maybe you can help. I'm using this tune from the late great Tuku > (Oliver Mtukudzi) in a class I am giving on sex education in Korea. I've > been told that it doesn't really mention AIDS/HIV explicitly, and I get > that--in fact, that's one of the reasons why I think it's useful for making > certain parallels between pandemics and also discussing HPV and other > issues I want to talk about. But I don't quite understand THIS verse--maybe > you can help me? > > Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > > So "Kana uinahwo utachiwana" means something like "If you get infected". > But what is the reference to being raped by your roommate? > > On the subject of this thread. Like voter fraud, racism is a very serious > charge, and the right has successfully made hay out of its seriousness. But > as with voter fraud they have made even more hay out of rendering the > charge unproveable, by removing its class content and rendering it a purely > subjective inclination. This is why, I think (I hope), Arturo and others > tend to raise this sort of thing in private off-list material that is so > much at variance with their public writings that it fairly attracts the > charge of hypocrisy or at least political timidity. After all, if you > really suspect your interlocutor of racism, it's incumbent on you to keep > your mouth and not just your eyes open. But you've got to put money where > your mouth is: you have to provide some evidence (e.g. the paper that > Harshad circulated on the list not too long ago). There are important > scientific issues we need to discuss which are actually not unrelated to > the one that Arturo was reacting to: whether you can accurately judge the > language proficiency of a person by their race or national origin (as I > have done in the second paragraph above). Not unrelated. But not identical > to either, else I would not have written that paragraph. > > Here's an example. A dear colleague of mine, who like the vast majority of > people in this country is not white and wouldn't know deficit linguistics > from a surplus, has just written a paper on why Korean children tend to > drop articles (i.e. "a" and "the"). He begins with the Chomskyan premise > that all nouns must, according to universal human grammars which are > hardwired at birth, be realized by "determiner phrases". What that means is > that a noun phrase like "the cat" is not really about a cat--it's about > "the", and the "the" is modified by "cat" (What kind of "the-ness" do you > mean? The cat kind!) > > But it's THIS, and not Vygotskyan, Hallidayan, or Bernsteinian > developmentalism, that is deficit linguistics. I won't say it is racist, > because unfortunately that term has lost its scientific content and become > nothing but a thought crime. But I will say that people who speak languages > without articles or languages that emphasize nouns over determiners (e.g. > Korean, Chinese, Russian) are not born with a birth defect (or "null spell > out", as the Chomskyans say). > > Does Shona have articles or not? Do you know? > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY0JssD8Hzc__;!!Mih3wA!RxBugkPeSU52iebyZbytaRN6b8sia_hpIDOL6pIpcLsKG3mACdIY-Pl17TPuYPBz72-XzA$ > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Book with Nikolai Veresov > L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology > Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai > Veresov > See free downloadable pdf at: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!RxBugkPeSU52iebyZbytaRN6b8sia_hpIDOL6pIpcLsKG3mACdIY-Pl17TPuYPBHAPdo6g$ > > > Forthcoming in 2020: > L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. > Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David > Kellogg > > > On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 6:02 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >> >>> P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject >>> matter of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the *development of >>> human higher psychological functions*. (How that is "left," "right," or >>> otherwise is beyond me.) >>> >> >> Political propensities can be discerned across some (adult) developmental >> stages. >> >> Huw >> >>> >> >> -- To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!RxBugkPeSU52iebyZbytaRN6b8sia_hpIDOL6pIpcLsKG3mACdIY-Pl17TPuYPBbMKqBLQ$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201129/419fe08e/attachment.html From zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com Sun Nov 29 12:28:42 2020 From: zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com (Zaza Kabayadondo) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 12:28:42 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Translations - Shona and Russian In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> Message-ID: Also... your other question about articles is super interesting to me because I've been puzzling over the rules of Shona for a long time. Does Shona have articles? Yes and no. We do modify nouns but we don't follow the same rules as say French does with le, la, les. I like the framing *What** kind of "the-ness" do you mean? The cat kind! *Technically there is no article for "a", but in translation the absence of the article means you mean a generic, unspecific unit of the noun - the equivalent of "a". On the other hand, we have a lot of "the-ness" in Shona, but with more nuances or qualification of what sort of "the" we mean. For example, the small kind, the large kind, the despicable kind. So there's a distinct article for the small cat, a distinct one for the fat cat, and one for the gross/naughty/bad cat. Ndaona kiti - I saw a cat Ndaona kakiti - I saw a little cat. Ndaona zikiti - I saw a big fat cat [I saw the big cat] Ndaona chikiti - I saw the cat (usually with more context to clarify the cat is gross, naughty, etc) To emphasize "the-ness" with the above statements you would add "-ya" to the end of the sentence. But the "-ya" needs an agreement with the article you used so it becomes "kaya" eg "Ndaona kakiti kaya" means "the one and only little cat I am talking about" OR "the little cat." Ndaona kiti riya - I saw the cat (but also I saw that cat) Ndaona kakiti kaya - I saw the little cat Ndaona zikiti riya - I saw the fat cat Ndaona chikiti chiya - I saw the naughty cat Plural forms: Ndaona makiti - I saw cats Ndaona zvikiti - I saw the little cats Ndaona mazikiti - I saw Ndaona twukiti - I saw the cats (usually with more context to clarify this is a marauding pack of gross, naughty cats) Question for the xmca community - are there languages you speak that do extra work with their articles? Would love to see if there are patterns On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:26 PM Zaza Kabayadondo < zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com> wrote: > I'm moving this to a new thread... > > Thank you for your question, David. I didn't realize people were using > Google Translate. It's great for some languages - not so much for anything > from Southern Africa at least as far as I've observed. > > Yes, I do speak Shona. I like to distinguish between functional Shona and > idiomatic Shona. Functional Shona is literal and idiomatic Shona is > literary (though spoken). I'm not a Shona linguist so I'm making up terms > for the distinction I perceive but there might already be a convention for > how Shona linguists describe the difference. Functional Shona is what you > will hear people using on the streets. It is a more literal or explicit way > of speaking and very similar to European meaning and sensemaking. In > functional Shona you might say "I am tired." "She arrived yesterday." It > some contexts it is considered rather crass to speak so directly of your > feelings, wants, needs. I contrast this to idiomatic Shona which is a > version of the language our elders spoke, it reflects pre-colonial Shona > culture and thinking because it "beats around the bush". You would rarely > directly ask a question, everything was a metaphor, a vague suggestion, > never explicitly spelt out. It is more diplomatic, more evasive, and can be > problematic when it comes to talking about social or political issues. Tuku > sings in this idiomatic style. Tuku's song *Bvuma* is the best example of > his style of which allows for double entendre (He is saying "Tolerance has > faded" but he could also mean "Just accept that you're old." > > Todii is about HIV/AIDS. Originally, "utachiwana" meant any virus or germ, > the underlying cause of an illness, but over time the only virus people > talk about is HIV. (In "Hutachiwana" the "h" is a modifier emphasizes you > mean "the virus"). The style is call-and-response which is typical in Shona > folk music, both traditional and contemporary. The call and its response > should be read as one sentence. > > As for the lyrics in question: > Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > *Translation: How it must hurt to be raped by the one you live with...**If > you have a virus * > Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma** ...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > *Translation:** How it must hurt to be raped by the man** who married you > ...**If you have a virus * > **The literal meaning is "by the one who paid roora (lobola/bride price)" > Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > *Translation: When he knows you have the virus...If you have a virus* > Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > *Translation: **And you know you have the virus...If you have a virus* > In the last two lines the response almost implies "hypothetically, let's > say you have a virus." And for me this is really where the song touches on > the sensibility of HIV/AIDS as it was experienced in Zimbabwe in the moment > of the song. Not knowing who has it, suspecting who has it etc. Tuku was > masterful with his play on words and structure. > > > On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 2:56 AM David Kellogg > wrote: > >> Zaza-- >> >> Dude, I don't really speak Russian either, as Nikolai and Anna will tell >> you (we only speak English). In my translation work I spend a lot more time >> on Google Translate than I would like, and that's why I burden the list >> with the queries you mention from time to time.. But I bet you speak Shona, >> or at least understand a little. >> >> So maybe you can help. I'm using this tune from the late great Tuku >> (Oliver Mtukudzi) in a class I am giving on sex education in Korea. I've >> been told that it doesn't really mention AIDS/HIV explicitly, and I get >> that--in fact, that's one of the reasons why I think it's useful for making >> certain parallels between pandemics and also discussing HPV and other >> issues I want to talk about. But I don't quite understand THIS verse--maybe >> you can help me? >> >> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye >> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma >> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >> Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana >> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >> Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana >> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >> >> So "Kana uinahwo utachiwana" means something like "If you get infected". >> But what is the reference to being raped by your roommate? >> >> On the subject of this thread. Like voter fraud, racism is a very serious >> charge, and the right has successfully made hay out of its seriousness. But >> as with voter fraud they have made even more hay out of rendering the >> charge unproveable, by removing its class content and rendering it a purely >> subjective inclination. This is why, I think (I hope), Arturo and others >> tend to raise this sort of thing in private off-list material that is so >> much at variance with their public writings that it fairly attracts the >> charge of hypocrisy or at least political timidity. After all, if you >> really suspect your interlocutor of racism, it's incumbent on you to keep >> your mouth and not just your eyes open. But you've got to put money where >> your mouth is: you have to provide some evidence (e.g. the paper that >> Harshad circulated on the list not too long ago). There are important >> scientific issues we need to discuss which are actually not unrelated to >> the one that Arturo was reacting to: whether you can accurately judge the >> language proficiency of a person by their race or national origin (as I >> have done in the second paragraph above). Not unrelated. But not identical >> to either, else I would not have written that paragraph. >> >> Here's an example. A dear colleague of mine, who like the vast majority >> of people in this country is not white and wouldn't know deficit >> linguistics from a surplus, has just written a paper on why Korean children >> tend to drop articles (i.e. "a" and "the"). He begins with the Chomskyan >> premise that all nouns must, according to universal human grammars which >> are hardwired at birth, be realized by "determiner phrases". What that >> means is that a noun phrase like "the cat" is not really about a cat--it's >> about "the", and the "the" is modified by "cat" (What kind of "the-ness" do >> you mean? The cat kind!) >> >> But it's THIS, and not Vygotskyan, Hallidayan, or Bernsteinian >> developmentalism, that is deficit linguistics. I won't say it is racist, >> because unfortunately that term has lost its scientific content and become >> nothing but a thought crime. But I will say that people who speak languages >> without articles or languages that emphasize nouns over determiners (e.g. >> Korean, Chinese, Russian) are not born with a birth defect (or "null spell >> out", as the Chomskyans say). >> >> Does Shona have articles or not? Do you know? >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY0JssD8Hzc__;!!Mih3wA!S9KPuAupp8hp07K9J75RHXsGvazSHUtOm7W8a7jYE8aRud1cTYn898z1Xq4R2qASbGCwtg$ >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Book with Nikolai Veresov >> L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology >> Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai >> Veresov >> See free downloadable pdf at: >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!S9KPuAupp8hp07K9J75RHXsGvazSHUtOm7W8a7jYE8aRud1cTYn898z1Xq4R2qDtGAgI7w$ >> >> >> Forthcoming in 2020: >> L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. >> Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David >> Kellogg >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 6:02 PM Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >> >>> >>>> P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject >>>> matter of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the *development of >>>> human higher psychological functions*. (How that is "left," "right," >>>> or otherwise is beyond me.) >>>> >>> >>> Political propensities can be discerned across some (adult) >>> developmental stages. >>> >>> Huw >>> >>>> >>> >>> > > -- > To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!S9KPuAupp8hp07K9J75RHXsGvazSHUtOm7W8a7jYE8aRud1cTYn898z1Xq4R2qCI_b_UsA$ > -- To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!S9KPuAupp8hp07K9J75RHXsGvazSHUtOm7W8a7jYE8aRud1cTYn898z1Xq4R2qCI_b_UsA$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201129/ef9680b6/attachment.html From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Sun Nov 29 15:03:30 2020 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (Larry Smolucha) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 23:03:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: keeping eyes open In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> , , , Message-ID: >From Francine: To Phillip White and To: David Kellogg (who have both graciously replied to my posting) Interesting thoughts. Recognizing that creativity always involves an "essential tension" to use T.S. Kuhn's phrase or an irreducible tension (as Wertsch would have it) is a good starting point. Inter-personal conflict and inter-cultural conflicts can be synergistic, resulting in new ideas that are more than the sum of 'individual' parts. Also, conflicting opinions do not have to lead to one side winning over the other - unless that is the real agenda. In my lived experience, I have dealt with many attempts to stifle Vygotsky's ideas (not just my own ideas). For me, these incidents were object lessons in the process of cultural change. Some other time, I can share some specific examples. The new paper that my husband and I have in press, discusses this 'stifling' of Vygotsky's ideas (without getting personal). The editor asked us to write this paper on Vygotsky as a Pioneer in Psychology knowing full well our perspective - could have asked someone like Yasnitsky or Van der Veer. I would highly recommend watching an old film Why Man Creates (if you can find it). Saw it for the first time in high school and felt as if I had lived it (never noticing that the title is sexist). Also, recommend Kuhn's book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions (about how new ideas challenge old paradigms and seldom get a fair hearing). I was weened (so to speak) on Kuhn's book, having read it at age 20 as a grad student at the University of Chicago (back in 1973). Wrote my Master's thesis on Kuhn's book with Stephen Toulmin as my advisor. Ten years later, I was translating Vygotsky's three papers on the development of creative imagination (that I had stumbled upon myself on the road less traveled). Seems to me that there are several threads that could be generated from the evolving discourse thus far. Let me suggest a couple, 1) The future XMCA as a more inclusive and welcoming CHAT room. 2) The future of CHAT requires examining the current status of Vygotskian studies and Activity Research. It doesn't matter to me where this leads. I have always marched to the beat of a different drummer, never having become an advocate of either CHAT or Activity Theory (no offense intended). 3) Many members of the list serve feel strongly about current political crises and will want to address that. Since XMCA postings end up on Google searches there is no privacy and professionalism (or lack thereof) is on full display. 4)There might be particular topics of interest directed related to Vygotsky, Activity Theory, etc. A specific topic might only interest a handful of people, but the discussion should be welcoming to all. People are people, some are gruff, patronizing, and even self-righteous. Some people want to understand something; while others want to proselytize. Eventually, you figure out who you are dealing with. ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of White, Phillip Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 1:01 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: keeping eyes open Francine - i found your posting to be very encouraging, particularly the call for a closer focus on Vygotsky & Activity Theory. and by that time i finished reading your posting i was reminded of the soviet label of cosmopolitanism - particularly where you imputed a "stifling" of Vygotsky's ideas. for me that seems far-fetched. i find it fair to believe that Vygotsky's determination to move away from behaviorism - a bane not just on soviet russian education but on american education as well - and it's prescriptive linear, stage based, black box based assumptions of learning to instead a learning theory based within a social relationship, a community historically grounded and with signs both physical and mental embedded within the situated cultural present, proleptically focused. this is why i found and still find Vygotsky so pertinent to my life's activity - parent, spouse, grandparent, friend, neighbor, confident, patron - all of the myriad of social relations within a wide range of legitimate peripheral participation - in which xmca is but one.(d) and this for me of course also involves (d)ecrying colonialism, racism, sexism". and while for you this "... doesn't address the oppression of free thinking people by members of their own culture, race, and sex", i see it as a start - and not a mere expression of "political grievances". as for Vygotsky, of course he is going to be a man of his time - and as such blind to certain oppressions endemic to the Soviet Russian socio-political-educational structure at the time. just as we all are now. and frankly, i don't think that state of social relations is going to be able to support "free thinking" - that for us, as it was for Vygotsky and, say, Spinosa - an idea which will always rest of the razor's edge of - to use James Wertsch's description - an irreducible tension. and always xmca is going to be operating with a degrees of irreducible tension. and i shall consider your question - what do we want to know, explore, contribute. well, this is my contribution: many thanks, Francine, for yours. as Eugene would suggest - half-baked ideas here - what do you think? phillip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201129/1885df3d/attachment.html From VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za Sun Nov 29 19:57:32 2020 From: VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za (Mary van der Riet) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 03:57:32 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Translations - Shona and Russian In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> , Message-ID: Dear Zaza Thank you for detailed response and translation of the song. I did not know that it was so explicit about what one could call the 'real' reasons for transmission (power, gender), especially during those critical years in the southern African epidemic (the song was released in 1999) regards Mary Mary van der Riet (PhD), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Zaza Kabayadondo Sent: Sunday, 29 November 2020 22:26 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Translations - Shona and Russian I'm moving this to a new thread... Thank you for your question, David. I didn't realize people were using Google Translate. It's great for some languages - not so much for anything from Southern Africa at least as far as I've observed. Yes, I do speak Shona. I like to distinguish between functional Shona and idiomatic Shona. Functional Shona is literal and idiomatic Shona is literary (though spoken). I'm not a Shona linguist so I'm making up terms for the distinction I perceive but there might already be a convention for how Shona linguists describe the difference. Functional Shona is what you will hear people using on the streets. It is a more literal or explicit way of speaking and very similar to European meaning and sensemaking. In functional Shona you might say "I am tired." "She arrived yesterday." It some contexts it is considered rather crass to speak so directly of your feelings, wants, needs. I contrast this to idiomatic Shona which is a version of the language our elders spoke, it reflects pre-colonial Shona culture and thinking because it "beats around the bush". You would rarely directly ask a question, everything was a metaphor, a vague suggestion, never explicitly spelt out. It is more diplomatic, more evasive, and can be problematic when it comes to talking about social or political issues. Tuku sings in this idiomatic style. Tuku's song Bvuma is the best example of his style of which allows for double entendre (He is saying "Tolerance has faded" but he could also mean "Just accept that you're old." Todii is about HIV/AIDS. Originally, "utachiwana" meant any virus or germ, the underlying cause of an illness, but over time the only virus people talk about is HIV. (In "Hutachiwana" the "h" is a modifier emphasizes you mean "the virus"). The style is call-and-response which is typical in Shona folk music, both traditional and contemporary. The call and its response should be read as one sentence. As for the lyrics in question: Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) Translation: How it must hurt to be raped by the one you live with...If you have a virus Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma** ...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) Translation: How it must hurt to be raped by the man** who married you ...If you have a virus **The literal meaning is "by the one who paid roora (lobola/bride price)" Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) Translation: When he knows you have the virus...If you have a virus Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) Translation: And you know you have the virus...If you have a virus In the last two lines the response almost implies "hypothetically, let's say you have a virus." And for me this is really where the song touches on the sensibility of HIV/AIDS as it was experienced in Zimbabwe in the moment of the song. Not knowing who has it, suspecting who has it etc. Tuku was masterful with his play on words and structure. On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 2:56 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Zaza-- Dude, I don't really speak Russian either, as Nikolai and Anna will tell you (we only speak English). In my translation work I spend a lot more time on Google Translate than I would like, and that's why I burden the list with the queries you mention from time to time.. But I bet you speak Shona, or at least understand a little. So maybe you can help. I'm using this tune from the late great Tuku (Oliver Mtukudzi) in a class I am giving on sex education in Korea. I've been told that it doesn't really mention AIDS/HIV explicitly, and I get that--in fact, that's one of the reasons why I think it's useful for making certain parallels between pandemics and also discussing HPV and other issues I want to talk about. But I don't quite understand THIS verse--maybe you can help me? Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) So "Kana uinahwo utachiwana" means something like "If you get infected". But what is the reference to being raped by your roommate? On the subject of this thread. Like voter fraud, racism is a very serious charge, and the right has successfully made hay out of its seriousness. But as with voter fraud they have made even more hay out of rendering the charge unproveable, by removing its class content and rendering it a purely subjective inclination. This is why, I think (I hope), Arturo and others tend to raise this sort of thing in private off-list material that is so much at variance with their public writings that it fairly attracts the charge of hypocrisy or at least political timidity. After all, if you really suspect your interlocutor of racism, it's incumbent on you to keep your mouth and not just your eyes open. But you've got to put money where your mouth is: you have to provide some evidence (e.g. the paper that Harshad circulated on the list not too long ago). There are important scientific issues we need to discuss which are actually not unrelated to the one that Arturo was reacting to: whether you can accurately judge the language proficiency of a person by their race or national origin (as I have done in the second paragraph above). Not unrelated. But not identical to either, else I would not have written that paragraph. Here's an example. A dear colleague of mine, who like the vast majority of people in this country is not white and wouldn't know deficit linguistics from a surplus, has just written a paper on why Korean children tend to drop articles (i.e. "a" and "the"). He begins with the Chomskyan premise that all nouns must, according to universal human grammars which are hardwired at birth, be realized by "determiner phrases". What that means is that a noun phrase like "the cat" is not really about a cat--it's about "the", and the "the" is modified by "cat" (What kind of "the-ness" do you mean? The cat kind!) But it's THIS, and not Vygotskyan, Hallidayan, or Bernsteinian developmentalism, that is deficit linguistics. I won't say it is racist, because unfortunately that term has lost its scientific content and become nothing but a thought crime. But I will say that people who speak languages without articles or languages that emphasize nouns over determiners (e.g. Korean, Chinese, Russian) are not born with a birth defect (or "null spell out", as the Chomskyans say). Does Shona have articles or not? Do you know? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY0JssD8Hzc__;!!Mih3wA!WA5WOCdm2B1dOQXnuFbvz14V-y0BTLqm_eD5MmRDbh8a_qniepcri_NOn9oFmx2vLiqmhA$ David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Book with Nikolai Veresov L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai Veresov See free downloadable pdf at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!WA5WOCdm2B1dOQXnuFbvz14V-y0BTLqm_eD5MmRDbh8a_qniepcri_NOn9oFmx1TnRkDZQ$ Forthcoming in 2020: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David Kellogg On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 6:02 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject matter of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the development of human higher psychological functions. (How that is "left," "right," or otherwise is beyond me.) Political propensities can be discerned across some (adult) developmental stages. Huw -- To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!WA5WOCdm2B1dOQXnuFbvz14V-y0BTLqm_eD5MmRDbh8a_qniepcri_NOn9oFmx2Cqby8BA$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201130/f8314e50/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Mon Nov 30 10:51:22 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 13:51:22 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Translations - Shona and Russian In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> Message-ID: Zaza, I had no idea that one could translate books without really speaking the original language, as David claims about himself. Nor did I realize the extent to which translating is about reading between the lines, along with the lines themselves. Such an interesting topic . . . Perhaps of interest: 1. A brief anecdote from David about a current Korean translation/summary project: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGU5zV6zbLI__;!!Mih3wA!XQxtj2IoXb7_362eZ5KfjzUbcujo3z8eN1rDP2n6Qw-EPNOKDlCOfjzQOwnnShti9Nhkyw$ (re: Vygotsky on emotions) 2. An old xmca post on translating Vygotsky into Korean: http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2011_05.dir/msg00509.html I thought these were neat to hear about and maybe enjoyable or others as well. Anthony On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 3:30 PM Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: > I'm moving this to a new thread... > > Thank you for your question, David. I didn't realize people were using > Google Translate. It's great for some languages - not so much for anything > from Southern Africa at least as far as I've observed. > > Yes, I do speak Shona. I like to distinguish between functional Shona and > idiomatic Shona. Functional Shona is literal and idiomatic Shona is > literary (though spoken). I'm not a Shona linguist so I'm making up terms > for the distinction I perceive but there might already be a convention for > how Shona linguists describe the difference. Functional Shona is what you > will hear people using on the streets. It is a more literal or explicit way > of speaking and very similar to European meaning and sensemaking. In > functional Shona you might say "I am tired." "She arrived yesterday." It > some contexts it is considered rather crass to speak so directly of your > feelings, wants, needs. I contrast this to idiomatic Shona which is a > version of the language our elders spoke, it reflects pre-colonial Shona > culture and thinking because it "beats around the bush". You would rarely > directly ask a question, everything was a metaphor, a vague suggestion, > never explicitly spelt out. It is more diplomatic, more evasive, and can be > problematic when it comes to talking about social or political issues. Tuku > sings in this idiomatic style. Tuku's song *Bvuma* is the best example of > his style of which allows for double entendre (He is saying "Tolerance has > faded" but he could also mean "Just accept that you're old." > > Todii is about HIV/AIDS. Originally, "utachiwana" meant any virus or germ, > the underlying cause of an illness, but over time the only virus people > talk about is HIV. (In "Hutachiwana" the "h" is a modifier emphasizes you > mean "the virus"). The style is call-and-response which is typical in Shona > folk music, both traditional and contemporary. The call and its response > should be read as one sentence. > > As for the lyrics in question: > Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > *Translation: How it must hurt to be raped by the one you live with...**If > you have a virus * > Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma** ...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > *Translation:** How it must hurt to be raped by the man** who married you > ...**If you have a virus * > **The literal meaning is "by the one who paid roora (lobola/bride price)" > Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > *Translation: When he knows you have the virus...If you have a virus* > Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > *Translation: **And you know you have the virus...If you have a virus* > In the last two lines the response almost implies "hypothetically, let's > say you have a virus." And for me this is really where the song touches on > the sensibility of HIV/AIDS as it was experienced in Zimbabwe in the moment > of the song. Not knowing who has it, suspecting who has it etc. Tuku was > masterful with his play on words and structure. > > > On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 2:56 AM David Kellogg > wrote: > >> Zaza-- >> >> Dude, I don't really speak Russian either, as Nikolai and Anna will tell >> you (we only speak English). In my translation work I spend a lot more time >> on Google Translate than I would like, and that's why I burden the list >> with the queries you mention from time to time.. But I bet you speak Shona, >> or at least understand a little. >> >> So maybe you can help. I'm using this tune from the late great Tuku >> (Oliver Mtukudzi) in a class I am giving on sex education in Korea. I've >> been told that it doesn't really mention AIDS/HIV explicitly, and I get >> that--in fact, that's one of the reasons why I think it's useful for making >> certain parallels between pandemics and also discussing HPV and other >> issues I want to talk about. But I don't quite understand THIS verse--maybe >> you can help me? >> >> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye >> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma >> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >> Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana >> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >> Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana >> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >> >> So "Kana uinahwo utachiwana" means something like "If you get infected". >> But what is the reference to being raped by your roommate? >> >> On the subject of this thread. Like voter fraud, racism is a very serious >> charge, and the right has successfully made hay out of its seriousness. But >> as with voter fraud they have made even more hay out of rendering the >> charge unproveable, by removing its class content and rendering it a purely >> subjective inclination. This is why, I think (I hope), Arturo and others >> tend to raise this sort of thing in private off-list material that is so >> much at variance with their public writings that it fairly attracts the >> charge of hypocrisy or at least political timidity. After all, if you >> really suspect your interlocutor of racism, it's incumbent on you to keep >> your mouth and not just your eyes open. But you've got to put money where >> your mouth is: you have to provide some evidence (e.g. the paper that >> Harshad circulated on the list not too long ago). There are important >> scientific issues we need to discuss which are actually not unrelated to >> the one that Arturo was reacting to: whether you can accurately judge the >> language proficiency of a person by their race or national origin (as I >> have done in the second paragraph above). Not unrelated. But not identical >> to either, else I would not have written that paragraph. >> >> Here's an example. A dear colleague of mine, who like the vast majority >> of people in this country is not white and wouldn't know deficit >> linguistics from a surplus, has just written a paper on why Korean children >> tend to drop articles (i.e. "a" and "the"). He begins with the Chomskyan >> premise that all nouns must, according to universal human grammars which >> are hardwired at birth, be realized by "determiner phrases". What that >> means is that a noun phrase like "the cat" is not really about a cat--it's >> about "the", and the "the" is modified by "cat" (What kind of "the-ness" do >> you mean? The cat kind!) >> >> But it's THIS, and not Vygotskyan, Hallidayan, or Bernsteinian >> developmentalism, that is deficit linguistics. I won't say it is racist, >> because unfortunately that term has lost its scientific content and become >> nothing but a thought crime. But I will say that people who speak languages >> without articles or languages that emphasize nouns over determiners (e.g. >> Korean, Chinese, Russian) are not born with a birth defect (or "null spell >> out", as the Chomskyans say). >> >> Does Shona have articles or not? Do you know? >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY0JssD8Hzc__;!!Mih3wA!XQxtj2IoXb7_362eZ5KfjzUbcujo3z8eN1rDP2n6Qw-EPNOKDlCOfjzQOwnnShvZND7FWQ$ >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Book with Nikolai Veresov >> L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology >> Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai >> Veresov >> See free downloadable pdf at: >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!XQxtj2IoXb7_362eZ5KfjzUbcujo3z8eN1rDP2n6Qw-EPNOKDlCOfjzQOwnnShs9tlQndw$ >> >> >> Forthcoming in 2020: >> L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. >> Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David >> Kellogg >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 6:02 PM Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >> >>> >>>> P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject >>>> matter of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the *development of >>>> human higher psychological functions*. (How that is "left," "right," >>>> or otherwise is beyond me.) >>>> >>> >>> Political propensities can be discerned across some (adult) >>> developmental stages. >>> >>> Huw >>> >>>> >>> >>> > > -- > To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!XQxtj2IoXb7_362eZ5KfjzUbcujo3z8eN1rDP2n6Qw-EPNOKDlCOfjzQOwnnShuycNcabQ$ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201130/b4745d73/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Mon Nov 30 12:06:15 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 20:06:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Translations - Shona and Russian In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> Message-ID: I translated Piaget's book on dialectics with the aid of google. There was much work both pre- and post-googletranslate though. Part of this I put down to understanding the domain, just as one can question translations if one knows what they are about. Huw On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 at 18:53, Anthony Barra wrote: > Zaza, > > I had no idea that one could translate books without really speaking the > original language, as David claims about himself. > Nor did I realize the extent to which translating is about reading between > the lines, along with the lines themselves. Such an interesting topic . . . > > Perhaps of interest: > 1. A brief anecdote from David about a current Korean translation/summary > project: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGU5zV6zbLI__;!!Mih3wA!Ro-IKyPr2ykPdPPgTcPshFRHwww_0_-ShqyhJCRriik1kMNEnfVjCgzoi6mMJpv57QImhw$ > > (re: Vygotsky on emotions) > 2. An old xmca post on translating Vygotsky into Korean: > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2011_05.dir/msg00509.html > > I thought these were neat to hear about and maybe enjoyable or others as > well. > > Anthony > > > > On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 3:30 PM Zaza Kabayadondo < > zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I'm moving this to a new thread... >> >> Thank you for your question, David. I didn't realize people were using >> Google Translate. It's great for some languages - not so much for anything >> from Southern Africa at least as far as I've observed. >> >> Yes, I do speak Shona. I like to distinguish between functional Shona and >> idiomatic Shona. Functional Shona is literal and idiomatic Shona is >> literary (though spoken). I'm not a Shona linguist so I'm making up terms >> for the distinction I perceive but there might already be a convention for >> how Shona linguists describe the difference. Functional Shona is what you >> will hear people using on the streets. It is a more literal or explicit way >> of speaking and very similar to European meaning and sensemaking. In >> functional Shona you might say "I am tired." "She arrived yesterday." It >> some contexts it is considered rather crass to speak so directly of your >> feelings, wants, needs. I contrast this to idiomatic Shona which is a >> version of the language our elders spoke, it reflects pre-colonial Shona >> culture and thinking because it "beats around the bush". You would rarely >> directly ask a question, everything was a metaphor, a vague suggestion, >> never explicitly spelt out. It is more diplomatic, more evasive, and can be >> problematic when it comes to talking about social or political issues. Tuku >> sings in this idiomatic style. Tuku's song *Bvuma* is the best example >> of his style of which allows for double entendre (He is saying "Tolerance >> has faded" but he could also mean "Just accept that you're old." >> >> Todii is about HIV/AIDS. Originally, "utachiwana" meant any virus or >> germ, the underlying cause of an illness, but over time the only virus >> people talk about is HIV. (In "Hutachiwana" the "h" is a modifier >> emphasizes you mean "the virus"). The style is call-and-response which is >> typical in Shona folk music, both traditional and contemporary. The call >> and its response should be read as one sentence. >> >> As for the lyrics in question: >> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >> *Translation: How it must hurt to be raped by the one you live with...**If >> you have a virus * >> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma** ...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >> *Translation:** How it must hurt to be raped by the man** who married >> you ...**If you have a virus * >> **The literal meaning is "by the one who paid roora (lobola/bride price)" >> Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >> *Translation: When he knows you have the virus...If you have a virus* >> Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >> *Translation: **And you know you have the virus...If you have a virus* >> In the last two lines the response almost implies "hypothetically, let's >> say you have a virus." And for me this is really where the song touches on >> the sensibility of HIV/AIDS as it was experienced in Zimbabwe in the moment >> of the song. Not knowing who has it, suspecting who has it etc. Tuku was >> masterful with his play on words and structure. >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 2:56 AM David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >>> Zaza-- >>> >>> Dude, I don't really speak Russian either, as Nikolai and Anna will tell >>> you (we only speak English). In my translation work I spend a lot more time >>> on Google Translate than I would like, and that's why I burden the list >>> with the queries you mention from time to time.. But I bet you speak Shona, >>> or at least understand a little. >>> >>> So maybe you can help. I'm using this tune from the late great Tuku >>> (Oliver Mtukudzi) in a class I am giving on sex education in Korea. I've >>> been told that it doesn't really mention AIDS/HIV explicitly, and I get >>> that--in fact, that's one of the reasons why I think it's useful for making >>> certain parallels between pandemics and also discussing HPV and other >>> issues I want to talk about. But I don't quite understand THIS verse--maybe >>> you can help me? >>> >>> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye >>> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >>> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma >>> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >>> Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana >>> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >>> Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana >>> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >>> >>> So "Kana uinahwo utachiwana" means something like "If you get infected". >>> But what is the reference to being raped by your roommate? >>> >>> On the subject of this thread. Like voter fraud, racism is a very >>> serious charge, and the right has successfully made hay out of its >>> seriousness. But as with voter fraud they have made even more hay out of >>> rendering the charge unproveable, by removing its class content and >>> rendering it a purely subjective inclination. This is why, I think (I >>> hope), Arturo and others tend to raise this sort of thing in private >>> off-list material that is so much at variance with their public writings >>> that it fairly attracts the charge of hypocrisy or at least political >>> timidity. After all, if you really suspect your interlocutor of racism, >>> it's incumbent on you to keep your mouth and not just your eyes open. But >>> you've got to put money where your mouth is: you have to provide some >>> evidence (e.g. the paper that Harshad circulated on the list not too long >>> ago). There are important scientific issues we need to discuss which are >>> actually not unrelated to the one that Arturo was reacting to: whether you >>> can accurately judge the language proficiency of a person by their race or >>> national origin (as I have done in the second paragraph above). Not >>> unrelated. But not identical to either, else I would not have written that >>> paragraph. >>> >>> Here's an example. A dear colleague of mine, who like the vast majority >>> of people in this country is not white and wouldn't know deficit >>> linguistics from a surplus, has just written a paper on why Korean children >>> tend to drop articles (i.e. "a" and "the"). He begins with the Chomskyan >>> premise that all nouns must, according to universal human grammars which >>> are hardwired at birth, be realized by "determiner phrases". What that >>> means is that a noun phrase like "the cat" is not really about a cat--it's >>> about "the", and the "the" is modified by "cat" (What kind of "the-ness" do >>> you mean? The cat kind!) >>> >>> But it's THIS, and not Vygotskyan, Hallidayan, or Bernsteinian >>> developmentalism, that is deficit linguistics. I won't say it is racist, >>> because unfortunately that term has lost its scientific content and become >>> nothing but a thought crime. But I will say that people who speak languages >>> without articles or languages that emphasize nouns over determiners (e.g. >>> Korean, Chinese, Russian) are not born with a birth defect (or "null spell >>> out", as the Chomskyans say). >>> >>> Does Shona have articles or not? Do you know? >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY0JssD8Hzc__;!!Mih3wA!Ro-IKyPr2ykPdPPgTcPshFRHwww_0_-ShqyhJCRriik1kMNEnfVjCgzoi6mMJpuLZyT4fg$ >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Book with Nikolai Veresov >>> L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology >>> Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and >>> Nikolai Veresov >>> See free downloadable pdf at: >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!Ro-IKyPr2ykPdPPgTcPshFRHwww_0_-ShqyhJCRriik1kMNEnfVjCgzoi6mMJpvTmq_kjw$ >>> >>> >>> Forthcoming in 2020: >>> L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. >>> Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and >>> David Kellogg >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 6:02 PM Huw Lloyd >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>> P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject >>>>> matter of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the *development >>>>> of human higher psychological functions*. (How that is "left," >>>>> "right," or otherwise is beyond me.) >>>>> >>>> >>>> Political propensities can be discerned across some (adult) >>>> developmental stages. >>>> >>>> Huw >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> -- >> To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!Ro-IKyPr2ykPdPPgTcPshFRHwww_0_-ShqyhJCRriik1kMNEnfVjCgzoi6mMJps8OAwcmA$ >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201130/810bfa9d/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Nov 30 12:36:41 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 20:36:41 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Vygotsky simply Message-ID: Hello Xmcars and Venerable Others, I've been eating my share of popcorn on the list as of late. I have a few different sharings, but the more important one is my answer to "How to explain Vygotsky simply to non-academics?" My paraphrase, of course. I usually tell people that one of my heroes is Vygotsky who was a Russian psychologist during the Russian revolution and who proposed a radical theory that our minds are created by the society that we keep, the culture(s) we negotiate, the language(s) we speak, the tools we use, and the history/(-ies) we inherit. Then if I haven't lost anyone, I might say: If we understand those dynamics well, we can each decide for ourselves what kind of mind we each want to have. Still here? Then I say, If we study the geniuses we can understand how they became so, if we study those with cognitive-disability we can understand how they became so, if we study sociopaths and psychopaths we can understand how they became so. Conequently, with these understandings then we can make informed choices to create the kind of minds we want to encourage, using evidence-based measures we have discovered from our inquiries. What do you think? To the larger more amorphous questions pertaining to healthy discourses on creaky old listservs: I ask myself sometimes if I am listing toward behaviorism, only to say I hope that is not the case, but I feel inclined (a different kind of listing, I suppose), to remind my friends and acquaintances of XMCA that we are each a biological entity habituated by a total and whole environment, for good or bad, it is what it is. We are each a leaky ship that must be repaired while we sail to our destinations. But at the same time we are each vast libraries of experiences that have value to every one of us. It is a wonder that as social beings, our diversity is the very special ingredient that has allowed us, as a whole species, to survive, for each of us cannot be and do all to, and in, all circumstances, but instead we are cognitively distributed and "wired" to work together, whereby the sum is more than the parts together. There is always going to be injustice, and we must always be committed to struggle to bend that arc toward justice, just because. It is the only way. However, to learn is not only to fill a void of beginningless ignorance that we are born with, and not only to understand what to learn, how to learn, but also how to unlearn what no longer serves us. It is a constant chess game of infinite combinations that can be harder for some to keep all the moves straight among the vast diversity of cognitive loads. I am not at all being apologetic about racists, narcissists, or other inexperienced socially-unaware thinkers, but to remind that diversity has to include the bad and the ugly, which includes the racists and narcissists, and other inexperienced socially-unaware thinkers. Let me please qualify: it is not to say that the racists, narcissists are not a social blight or do not author harm to others, but my appeal is instead to be committed to democratic processes that dictate we are each important but of equal standing, no matter our differences. Those differences must include the pathological ones. We (must) deal with them as they come, not sooner and not later, but as they come. I find as a collective-mind, if that is possible in a sum of individual minds, if that is what the Internet has become for us, our unfortunate habit of collective-mind is to try to address pathologies before the pathologies come, when it is too soon, or far later after they arrive, when it is too late. Timing is of the most import when it comes to healing pathologies in a democratic process. What has happened instead of a commitment to democratic processes, which poll repeatedly to the hoi polloi "How is everyone doing?" "How do we feel about XYZ?"; an isolationist, might I say elitist, tradition has evolved to ban individuals for being different, in the way criminals are isolated for committing crimes. Difference is vilified. Let me say it is not only *being* different, let me also include individuals who are caught speechifying in a way not acceptable to some, public or private. But we are all of the human family and also a member of the family of this earth, shared with other creatures, a spaceship or an ark depending upon your own theories of genesis or futuristic fantasies. Where does this isolationist tendency NOT happen? It happens everywhere not just on listservs. In my country we have the first amendment, and in some academic institutions we still have academic freedom. These are sacred. We should always have the freedom to speak our minds and be respected, but also to be able to take the heat for saying the unsayable. It is the cost of freedom, I suppose. Yet I also recognize the trauma that has evolved in a variety of particular cultural contexts that have created certain kinds of minds as a consequence. These are minds shaped by those three blackguards: fear, uncertainty and doubt. I suffer this kind of trauma, of not being taken seriously, of being second-guessed, instead of my words being considered rooted to anything having integrity and authored by no one else but me. "No really, I say what I mean, and I mean what I say, because I said it." But in my time on earth, I have also learned that everyone has suffered this kind of trauma in one way or another. I can't wait for Godot to come and provide me the answers to all my "Why me..?" questions to get out from under the darn muddy FUD. It means I must have the courage to push past my fear and to take responsibility for the way I choose to heal from my particular trauma, and to call it out to myself when I see it, as I see it. I must understand myself first before I can understand anyone else. Which leads me to consider what it means to be free, trauma or no: Freedom is self-acceptance, but the conundrum of this, which seems to be of a peculiar design, is that I only can enjoy my freedom to the degree I provide freedom to others, regardless if they are like me, or if they like me. Kindest regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201130/5830763a/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Nov 30 14:13:14 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 07:13:14 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Translations - Shona and Russian In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> Message-ID: Many thanks to Zaza, whose translation of Tuku's song I'll be taking into my class on Ethics, Emotions, and Education tonight. I think you can see from her translation where you can go wrong with Google Translate, which is, after all, just a way of linking up bits of texts that have been previously translated by humans. Using the Google Translate function for Shona, I thought the song referred to "raped by your roomate". Zaza says it means a husband, which is expressed as the payer of bride price. At first I thought this was an accident of history, similar to the fact that our word "husband" means someone who looks after pigs, but of course if you listen to Tuku's song Haasati Aziva you can see that if it is an accident of history it's a very recent one that still casts a shadow. As Mary said--this is the stuff of a pandemic: systemic, institutionalized, and as a result blithe, indifferent and unaccountable power. As with AIDS, so too with Covid 19. Anthony--I said I don't speak Russian. I started studying in 2005 (after a short exchange with Mike) and took four years of formal classes in the language, six to eight hours a week. I have been spending at least eight hours a week reading Russian ever since. So when I look at a paragraph of Vygotsky in Russian I don't usually see any words that I don't recognize. When I do, I do what any Russian would do and look them up. Google Translate works as a bilingual dictionary only the entries are larger than the word and smaller than the clause. But human translators function more like thesauruses, where the entries are not wordings but meanings. For that reason I tend to use "Reverso", which gives whole paragraphs from the data base so you can see the context. . When I meet Nikolai or Anna, I find it impossible to use more than a few well-known phrases in Russian (mostly agreeable things like "Of course" and "You're right!", which is quite unlike my normal way of thinking...). So I think I do not speak Russian, although I have some reading knowledge of it. Operationally what that means is that when I publish a translation, I need a native speaker looking over my shoulder. Since I'm mostly translating into Korean, I actually need two, and I am fortunate that I was born with two shoulders, and even more fortunate that I have Dr. Kim Yongho, who is better than I am in both languages. (But Yongho learned his Russian from Rosetta Stone!) I have no objection to disentangling threads, but I don't really agree with Antti (who, unless I am quite mistaken, also speaks a language that utterly lacks articles) that this all belongs on a separate thread. To me, anyway, the relevant points are three. a) Racism isn't an interpersonal matter, and still less is it an intra-personal one: it's social, cultural, historical, material. That's why we say it is systemic. And if it's systemic, it is part of the way we look at other languages. Since Lewontin demonstrated the non-viability of race as a unit of analysis for human communities, language has become a stand in for race, and views about language are a stand-in for views about race. That was, after all, where Arturo was looking. b) One way that views about language have become a stand-in for views about race is that languages which lack articles are seen as deviant from some universal grammar and hence defective in some way. My colleague's "article-drop" parameter is actually part of a pattern of thinking that has been part of mainstream linguistics since the late fifties and early sixties, and is exemplified in the "Principles and Parameters" model of Universal Grammar. Chomsky argued that languages like Italian which do not require grammatical subjects as English does must have a setting that permits the omission of this universally obligatory element. This is nonsense. Italian does not drop pronouns; there's really no "pro" there to drop. We do not, after all, go around saying that English is a Korean-honorific-drop-language. Those who assume that languages are genetically hard-wired (the LAD or the magical gene that according to Chomsky created the capacity for human thought or the supposed correlation between mutations in mitochondrial DNA and languages that was alleged by Cavalli-Sforza) are making assumptions that are really not that different from assumptions previously made about the cranial capacity of lesser breeds without the law. c) Vygotsky was as much a man of his time as we are of our own. Some writers (c.f. Aaro Toomela on the Cultural Praxis site recently) have argued that Vygotsky believed in "primitive languages", e.g. the Bantu languages, to which Shona belongs. As Zaza makes abundantly clear, Shona is not primitive by any conceivable standard, and I have seen no convincing evidence that Vygotsky ever made this assumption (he did quote missionaries who clearly did make the assumption, but he is quite scathing about them on precisely this point). Certainly the idea that some languages have only the "indicative" or the "nominating" function but not the "signifying" function is not a Vygotskyan one: a language that cannot signify is not a human language, and any language that can signify can signify a concept. Languages can vary according to the meanings that they actually do express, just as registers within a language do. But human meaning potential is, if not infinite (we will not be around forever), at least undetermined and probably indeterminate. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Book with Nikolai Veresov L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai Veresov See free downloadable pdf at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!SzpiY8z2Z24lFuzO5PXhgoncACl4IAtIJzsBkUHd_y6FoP3gNy59eIVZe7xe6UKdUaMciw$ Forthcoming in 2020: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David Kellogg On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 5:08 AM Huw Lloyd wrote: > I translated Piaget's book on dialectics with the aid of google. There was > much work both pre- and post-googletranslate though. Part of this I put > down to understanding the domain, just as one can question translations if > one knows what they are about. > > Huw > > On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 at 18:53, Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Zaza, >> >> I had no idea that one could translate books without really speaking the >> original language, as David claims about himself. >> Nor did I realize the extent to which translating is about reading >> between the lines, along with the lines themselves. Such an interesting >> topic . . . >> >> Perhaps of interest: >> 1. A brief anecdote from David about a current Korean translation/summary >> project: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGU5zV6zbLI__;!!Mih3wA!SzpiY8z2Z24lFuzO5PXhgoncACl4IAtIJzsBkUHd_y6FoP3gNy59eIVZe7xe6UJw-D7lOQ$ >> >> (re: Vygotsky on emotions) >> 2. An old xmca post on translating Vygotsky into Korean: >> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2011_05.dir/msg00509.html >> >> I thought these were neat to hear about and maybe enjoyable or others as >> well. >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 3:30 PM Zaza Kabayadondo < >> zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I'm moving this to a new thread... >>> >>> Thank you for your question, David. I didn't realize people were using >>> Google Translate. It's great for some languages - not so much for anything >>> from Southern Africa at least as far as I've observed. >>> >>> Yes, I do speak Shona. I like to distinguish between functional Shona >>> and idiomatic Shona. Functional Shona is literal and idiomatic Shona is >>> literary (though spoken). I'm not a Shona linguist so I'm making up terms >>> for the distinction I perceive but there might already be a convention for >>> how Shona linguists describe the difference. Functional Shona is what you >>> will hear people using on the streets. It is a more literal or explicit way >>> of speaking and very similar to European meaning and sensemaking. In >>> functional Shona you might say "I am tired." "She arrived yesterday." It >>> some contexts it is considered rather crass to speak so directly of your >>> feelings, wants, needs. I contrast this to idiomatic Shona which is a >>> version of the language our elders spoke, it reflects pre-colonial Shona >>> culture and thinking because it "beats around the bush". You would rarely >>> directly ask a question, everything was a metaphor, a vague suggestion, >>> never explicitly spelt out. It is more diplomatic, more evasive, and can be >>> problematic when it comes to talking about social or political issues. Tuku >>> sings in this idiomatic style. Tuku's song *Bvuma* is the best example >>> of his style of which allows for double entendre (He is saying "Tolerance >>> has faded" but he could also mean "Just accept that you're old." >>> >>> Todii is about HIV/AIDS. Originally, "utachiwana" meant any virus or >>> germ, the underlying cause of an illness, but over time the only virus >>> people talk about is HIV. (In "Hutachiwana" the "h" is a modifier >>> emphasizes you mean "the virus"). The style is call-and-response which is >>> typical in Shona folk music, both traditional and contemporary. The call >>> and its response should be read as one sentence. >>> >>> As for the lyrics in question: >>> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >>> *Translation: How it must hurt to be raped by the one you live with...**If >>> you have a virus * >>> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma** ...(Kana uinahwo >>> utachiwana) >>> *Translation:** How it must hurt to be raped by the man** who married >>> you ...**If you have a virus * >>> **The literal meaning is "by the one who paid roora (lobola/bride price)" >>> Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >>> *Translation: When he knows you have the virus...If you have a virus* >>> Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >>> *Translation: **And you know you have the virus...If you have a virus* >>> In the last two lines the response almost implies "hypothetically, let's >>> say you have a virus." And for me this is really where the song touches on >>> the sensibility of HIV/AIDS as it was experienced in Zimbabwe in the moment >>> of the song. Not knowing who has it, suspecting who has it etc. Tuku was >>> masterful with his play on words and structure. >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 2:56 AM David Kellogg >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Zaza-- >>>> >>>> Dude, I don't really speak Russian either, as Nikolai and Anna will >>>> tell you (we only speak English). In my translation work I spend a lot more >>>> time on Google Translate than I would like, and that's why I burden the >>>> list with the queries you mention from time to time.. But I bet you speak >>>> Shona, or at least understand a little. >>>> >>>> So maybe you can help. I'm using this tune from the late great Tuku >>>> (Oliver Mtukudzi) in a class I am giving on sex education in Korea. I've >>>> been told that it doesn't really mention AIDS/HIV explicitly, and I get >>>> that--in fact, that's one of the reasons why I think it's useful for making >>>> certain parallels between pandemics and also discussing HPV and other >>>> issues I want to talk about. But I don't quite understand THIS verse--maybe >>>> you can help me? >>>> >>>> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye >>>> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >>>> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma >>>> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >>>> Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana >>>> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >>>> Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana >>>> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) >>>> >>>> So "Kana uinahwo utachiwana" means something like "If you get >>>> infected". But what is the reference to being raped by your roommate? >>>> >>>> On the subject of this thread. Like voter fraud, racism is a very >>>> serious charge, and the right has successfully made hay out of its >>>> seriousness. But as with voter fraud they have made even more hay out of >>>> rendering the charge unproveable, by removing its class content and >>>> rendering it a purely subjective inclination. This is why, I think (I >>>> hope), Arturo and others tend to raise this sort of thing in private >>>> off-list material that is so much at variance with their public writings >>>> that it fairly attracts the charge of hypocrisy or at least political >>>> timidity. After all, if you really suspect your interlocutor of racism, >>>> it's incumbent on you to keep your mouth and not just your eyes open. But >>>> you've got to put money where your mouth is: you have to provide some >>>> evidence (e.g. the paper that Harshad circulated on the list not too long >>>> ago). There are important scientific issues we need to discuss which are >>>> actually not unrelated to the one that Arturo was reacting to: whether you >>>> can accurately judge the language proficiency of a person by their race or >>>> national origin (as I have done in the second paragraph above). Not >>>> unrelated. But not identical to either, else I would not have written that >>>> paragraph. >>>> >>>> Here's an example. A dear colleague of mine, who like the vast majority >>>> of people in this country is not white and wouldn't know deficit >>>> linguistics from a surplus, has just written a paper on why Korean children >>>> tend to drop articles (i.e. "a" and "the"). He begins with the Chomskyan >>>> premise that all nouns must, according to universal human grammars which >>>> are hardwired at birth, be realized by "determiner phrases". What that >>>> means is that a noun phrase like "the cat" is not really about a cat--it's >>>> about "the", and the "the" is modified by "cat" (What kind of "the-ness" do >>>> you mean? The cat kind!) >>>> >>>> But it's THIS, and not Vygotskyan, Hallidayan, or Bernsteinian >>>> developmentalism, that is deficit linguistics. I won't say it is racist, >>>> because unfortunately that term has lost its scientific content and become >>>> nothing but a thought crime. But I will say that people who speak languages >>>> without articles or languages that emphasize nouns over determiners (e.g. >>>> Korean, Chinese, Russian) are not born with a birth defect (or "null spell >>>> out", as the Chomskyans say). >>>> >>>> Does Shona have articles or not? Do you know? >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY0JssD8Hzc__;!!Mih3wA!SzpiY8z2Z24lFuzO5PXhgoncACl4IAtIJzsBkUHd_y6FoP3gNy59eIVZe7xe6UIsNixZgg$ >>>> >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Book with Nikolai Veresov >>>> L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology >>>> Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and >>>> Nikolai Veresov >>>> See free downloadable pdf at: >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!SzpiY8z2Z24lFuzO5PXhgoncACl4IAtIJzsBkUHd_y6FoP3gNy59eIVZe7xe6UKdUaMciw$ >>>> >>>> >>>> Forthcoming in 2020: >>>> L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. >>>> Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and >>>> David Kellogg >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 6:02 PM Huw Lloyd >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject >>>>>> matter of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the *development >>>>>> of human higher psychological functions*. (How that is "left," >>>>>> "right," or otherwise is beyond me.) >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Political propensities can be discerned across some (adult) >>>>> developmental stages. >>>>> >>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> -- >>> To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!SzpiY8z2Z24lFuzO5PXhgoncACl4IAtIJzsBkUHd_y6FoP3gNy59eIVZe7xe6UKoj4rMLg$ >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201201/37db55d6/attachment-0001.html From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Mon Nov 30 16:18:59 2020 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (Larry Smolucha) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 00:18:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Translations - Shona and Russian In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> , Message-ID: >From Francine: Just for the record, I have never used Google translate or any internet service when doing my translations - only the Oxford Russian-English dictionary. Like David, my reading skills in Russian are my strong point, rather than speaking or auditory comprehension. I have never had a mentor fluent in Russian oversee my translations of Vygotsky's writings. Early on, I discovered that the bi-lingual English experts in Russian were not focusing on the texts, but rather coming to the texts with interpretive frameworks. Discovered this in 1984, when I undertook my first translation of a Vygotsky text Thinking and Speech. My intention was to compare (correct) my translation with the only published English translation available Thought and Language (1962) by Hanfmann and Vakar, MIT Press. Well, as soon as I held the Russian version of Thinking and Speech in my hand, I realized the title had been mistranslated and the Russian version of the book was twice as thick as the 1962 English translation. When I started translating the chapters, I discovered that roughly half of the paragraphs were omitted in a random fashion within the text. Many XMCA members first read Thinking and Speech in the full translations that came out later in 1986 (Wertsch) and 1987 (Minick). But I am of a different generation and had to discover the hard way the inadequacies of the 1962 translation. Add to this that in 1984, I undertook the translation of Thinking and Speech to prepare for my third attempt at passing the Graduate Level Reading Exam in Russian at the University of Chicago (the Hanfmann/Vakar translation would not have gotten a passing grade). Well my thoughts were "screw this" - I am correcting the official MIT publication while trying to pass my grad reading exam. Might as well translate something that I am really interested in even if it has never been translated. In 1983, my husband and I had presented our theory and research on the development of creativity as a maturation of symbolic play at a conference of the British Psychological Society in Wales. Wonder if Vygotsky wrote anything about creativity? What do you know, in a 1956 Russian publication there was a paper by Vygotsky on the development of creative imagination. Translated it, passed the reading exam with honors, and sent my translation to Jim Wertsch at Northwestern University. Got a phone call from Jim Wertsch - told me that Plenum needed translators for the Collected Works and that I could go to study in Russia to study Vygotsky's writings. I replied that what I was really interested in is 'creativity' and I want to see if Vygotsky wrote anything else on that topic. Wertsch said "No, this is the only paper, Vygotsky had no interest in creativity." I declined the offer to translate for Plenum and to study in Russia. And all by myself, discovered that Vygotsky had written two other papers on the development of creative imagination, translated those papers and got them in press. I tell you this story because reading the text for yourself is a bold thing to do. ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 4:13 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Translations - Shona and Russian Many thanks to Zaza, whose translation of Tuku's song I'll be taking into my class on Ethics, Emotions, and Education tonight. I think you can see from her translation where you can go wrong with Google Translate, which is, after all, just a way of linking up bits of texts that have been previously translated by humans. Using the Google Translate function for Shona, I thought the song referred to "raped by your roomate". Zaza says it means a husband, which is expressed as the payer of bride price. At first I thought this was an accident of history, similar to the fact that our word "husband" means someone who looks after pigs, but of course if you listen to Tuku's song Haasati Aziva you can see that if it is an accident of history it's a very recent one that still casts a shadow. As Mary said--this is the stuff of a pandemic: systemic, institutionalized, and as a result blithe, indifferent and unaccountable power. As with AIDS, so too with Covid 19. Anthony--I said I don't speak Russian. I started studying in 2005 (after a short exchange with Mike) and took four years of formal classes in the language, six to eight hours a week. I have been spending at least eight hours a week reading Russian ever since. So when I look at a paragraph of Vygotsky in Russian I don't usually see any words that I don't recognize. When I do, I do what any Russian would do and look them up. Google Translate works as a bilingual dictionary only the entries are larger than the word and smaller than the clause. But human translators function more like thesauruses, where the entries are not wordings but meanings. For that reason I tend to use "Reverso", which gives whole paragraphs from the data base so you can see the context. . When I meet Nikolai or Anna, I find it impossible to use more than a few well-known phrases in Russian (mostly agreeable things like "Of course" and "You're right!", which is quite unlike my normal way of thinking...). So I think I do not speak Russian, although I have some reading knowledge of it. Operationally what that means is that when I publish a translation, I need a native speaker looking over my shoulder. Since I'm mostly translating into Korean, I actually need two, and I am fortunate that I was born with two shoulders, and even more fortunate that I have Dr. Kim Yongho, who is better than I am in both languages. (But Yongho learned his Russian from Rosetta Stone!) I have no objection to disentangling threads, but I don't really agree with Antti (who, unless I am quite mistaken, also speaks a language that utterly lacks articles) that this all belongs on a separate thread. To me, anyway, the relevant points are three. a) Racism isn't an interpersonal matter, and still less is it an intra-personal one: it's social, cultural, historical, material. That's why we say it is systemic. And if it's systemic, it is part of the way we look at other languages. Since Lewontin demonstrated the non-viability of race as a unit of analysis for human communities, language has become a stand in for race, and views about language are a stand-in for views about race. That was, after all, where Arturo was looking. b) One way that views about language have become a stand-in for views about race is that languages which lack articles are seen as deviant from some universal grammar and hence defective in some way. My colleague's "article-drop" parameter is actually part of a pattern of thinking that has been part of mainstream linguistics since the late fifties and early sixties, and is exemplified in the "Principles and Parameters" model of Universal Grammar. Chomsky argued that languages like Italian which do not require grammatical subjects as English does must have a setting that permits the omission of this universally obligatory element. This is nonsense. Italian does not drop pronouns; there's really no "pro" there to drop. We do not, after all, go around saying that English is a Korean-honorific-drop-language. Those who assume that languages are genetically hard-wired (the LAD or the magical gene that according to Chomsky created the capacity for human thought or the supposed correlation between mutations in mitochondrial DNA and languages that was alleged by Cavalli-Sforza) are making assumptions that are really not that different from assumptions previously made about the cranial capacity of lesser breeds without the law. c) Vygotsky was as much a man of his time as we are of our own. Some writers (c.f. Aaro Toomela on the Cultural Praxis site recently) have argued that Vygotsky believed in "primitive languages", e.g. the Bantu languages, to which Shona belongs. As Zaza makes abundantly clear, Shona is not primitive by any conceivable standard, and I have seen no convincing evidence that Vygotsky ever made this assumption (he did quote missionaries who clearly did make the assumption, but he is quite scathing about them on precisely this point). Certainly the idea that some languages have only the "indicative" or the "nominating" function but not the "signifying" function is not a Vygotskyan one: a language that cannot signify is not a human language, and any language that can signify can signify a concept. Languages can vary according to the meanings that they actually do express, just as registers within a language do. But human meaning potential is, if not infinite (we will not be around forever), at least undetermined and probably indeterminate. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Book with Nikolai Veresov L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai Veresov See free downloadable pdf at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!TreJ85GEDOEqJPoXwW2ZM3oXgE56fcX9hH8B4Ky2Z1hks9ERL48qiiAPYBtOrxSzEknadw$ Forthcoming in 2020: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David Kellogg On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 5:08 AM Huw Lloyd > wrote: I translated Piaget's book on dialectics with the aid of google. There was much work both pre- and post-googletranslate though. Part of this I put down to understanding the domain, just as one can question translations if one knows what they are about. Huw On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 at 18:53, Anthony Barra > wrote: Zaza, I had no idea that one could translate books without really speaking the original language, as David claims about himself. Nor did I realize the extent to which translating is about reading between the lines, along with the lines themselves. Such an interesting topic . . . Perhaps of interest: 1. A brief anecdote from David about a current Korean translation/summary project: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGU5zV6zbLI__;!!Mih3wA!TreJ85GEDOEqJPoXwW2ZM3oXgE56fcX9hH8B4Ky2Z1hks9ERL48qiiAPYBtOrxTfZKC8bw$ (re: Vygotsky on emotions) 2. An old xmca post on translating Vygotsky into Korean: http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2011_05.dir/msg00509.html I thought these were neat to hear about and maybe enjoyable or others as well. Anthony On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 3:30 PM Zaza Kabayadondo > wrote: I'm moving this to a new thread... Thank you for your question, David. I didn't realize people were using Google Translate. It's great for some languages - not so much for anything from Southern Africa at least as far as I've observed. Yes, I do speak Shona. I like to distinguish between functional Shona and idiomatic Shona. Functional Shona is literal and idiomatic Shona is literary (though spoken). I'm not a Shona linguist so I'm making up terms for the distinction I perceive but there might already be a convention for how Shona linguists describe the difference. Functional Shona is what you will hear people using on the streets. It is a more literal or explicit way of speaking and very similar to European meaning and sensemaking. In functional Shona you might say "I am tired." "She arrived yesterday." It some contexts it is considered rather crass to speak so directly of your feelings, wants, needs. I contrast this to idiomatic Shona which is a version of the language our elders spoke, it reflects pre-colonial Shona culture and thinking because it "beats around the bush". You would rarely directly ask a question, everything was a metaphor, a vague suggestion, never explicitly spelt out. It is more diplomatic, more evasive, and can be problematic when it comes to talking about social or political issues. Tuku sings in this idiomatic style. Tuku's song Bvuma is the best example of his style of which allows for double entendre (He is saying "Tolerance has faded" but he could also mean "Just accept that you're old." Todii is about HIV/AIDS. Originally, "utachiwana" meant any virus or germ, the underlying cause of an illness, but over time the only virus people talk about is HIV. (In "Hutachiwana" the "h" is a modifier emphasizes you mean "the virus"). The style is call-and-response which is typical in Shona folk music, both traditional and contemporary. The call and its response should be read as one sentence. As for the lyrics in question: Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) Translation: How it must hurt to be raped by the one you live with...If you have a virus Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma** ...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) Translation: How it must hurt to be raped by the man** who married you ...If you have a virus **The literal meaning is "by the one who paid roora (lobola/bride price)" Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) Translation: When he knows you have the virus...If you have a virus Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) Translation: And you know you have the virus...If you have a virus In the last two lines the response almost implies "hypothetically, let's say you have a virus." And for me this is really where the song touches on the sensibility of HIV/AIDS as it was experienced in Zimbabwe in the moment of the song. Not knowing who has it, suspecting who has it etc. Tuku was masterful with his play on words and structure. On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 2:56 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Zaza-- Dude, I don't really speak Russian either, as Nikolai and Anna will tell you (we only speak English). In my translation work I spend a lot more time on Google Translate than I would like, and that's why I burden the list with the queries you mention from time to time.. But I bet you speak Shona, or at least understand a little. So maybe you can help. I'm using this tune from the late great Tuku (Oliver Mtukudzi) in a class I am giving on sex education in Korea. I've been told that it doesn't really mention AIDS/HIV explicitly, and I get that--in fact, that's one of the reasons why I think it's useful for making certain parallels between pandemics and also discussing HPV and other issues I want to talk about. But I don't quite understand THIS verse--maybe you can help me? Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) So "Kana uinahwo utachiwana" means something like "If you get infected". But what is the reference to being raped by your roommate? On the subject of this thread. Like voter fraud, racism is a very serious charge, and the right has successfully made hay out of its seriousness. But as with voter fraud they have made even more hay out of rendering the charge unproveable, by removing its class content and rendering it a purely subjective inclination. This is why, I think (I hope), Arturo and others tend to raise this sort of thing in private off-list material that is so much at variance with their public writings that it fairly attracts the charge of hypocrisy or at least political timidity. After all, if you really suspect your interlocutor of racism, it's incumbent on you to keep your mouth and not just your eyes open. But you've got to put money where your mouth is: you have to provide some evidence (e.g. the paper that Harshad circulated on the list not too long ago). There are important scientific issues we need to discuss which are actually not unrelated to the one that Arturo was reacting to: whether you can accurately judge the language proficiency of a person by their race or national origin (as I have done in the second paragraph above). Not unrelated. But not identical to either, else I would not have written that paragraph. Here's an example. A dear colleague of mine, who like the vast majority of people in this country is not white and wouldn't know deficit linguistics from a surplus, has just written a paper on why Korean children tend to drop articles (i.e. "a" and "the"). He begins with the Chomskyan premise that all nouns must, according to universal human grammars which are hardwired at birth, be realized by "determiner phrases". What that means is that a noun phrase like "the cat" is not really about a cat--it's about "the", and the "the" is modified by "cat" (What kind of "the-ness" do you mean? The cat kind!) But it's THIS, and not Vygotskyan, Hallidayan, or Bernsteinian developmentalism, that is deficit linguistics. I won't say it is racist, because unfortunately that term has lost its scientific content and become nothing but a thought crime. But I will say that people who speak languages without articles or languages that emphasize nouns over determiners (e.g. Korean, Chinese, Russian) are not born with a birth defect (or "null spell out", as the Chomskyans say). Does Shona have articles or not? Do you know? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY0JssD8Hzc__;!!Mih3wA!TreJ85GEDOEqJPoXwW2ZM3oXgE56fcX9hH8B4Ky2Z1hks9ERL48qiiAPYBtOrxTAeL-WXw$ David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Book with Nikolai Veresov L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai Veresov See free downloadable pdf at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!TreJ85GEDOEqJPoXwW2ZM3oXgE56fcX9hH8B4Ky2Z1hks9ERL48qiiAPYBtOrxSzEknadw$ Forthcoming in 2020: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David Kellogg On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 6:02 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject matter of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the development of human higher psychological functions. (How that is "left," "right," or otherwise is beyond me.) Political propensities can be discerned across some (adult) developmental stages. Huw -- To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!TreJ85GEDOEqJPoXwW2ZM3oXgE56fcX9hH8B4Ky2Z1hks9ERL48qiiAPYBtOrxQ6ESaw2g$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201201/edea3bdd/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Nov 30 17:40:40 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 10:40:40 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Translations - Shona and Russian In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> Message-ID: And Francine was kind enough to write a beautiful little cover blurb for the Korean edition of creativity and imagination in childhood back in 2014 (at the time our Russian was still so rudimentary that we checked every paragraph of our translation against hers). We also included the two other essays which she mentions (which I think are necessary, because "Creativity and Imagination in Childhood" is really a booklet Vygotsky himself wrote to present ideas--including those of other academics--to non-academics in a popular form). A propos. The eighth seminaire internationale sur Vygotski will be held in Lausanne, Switzerland, from the 7-9, and the theme is...Vygotsky's "Creativity and Imagination in Childhood", now appearing in French! The Call for Papers is hereby attached (in French). Note that there are some anglophones on the scientific committee (including me) and that you can submit and present in English. By June we may actually be able to travel again. dk David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Book with Nikolai Veresov L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai Veresov See free downloadable pdf at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!QdS_KYVZrQ85giPWdS2f7dudksKQedOABnc6FwQgvONs1TOKkd50jgD-_LYz3unHHZOGqg$ Forthcoming in 2020: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David Kellogg On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 9:20 AM Larry Smolucha wrote: > >From Francine: > > Just for the record, I have never used Google translate or any internet > service when doing my translations - only the Oxford Russian-English > dictionary. Like David, my reading skills in Russian are my strong point, > rather than speaking or auditory comprehension. > > I have never had a mentor fluent in Russian oversee my translations of > Vygotsky's writings. Early on, I discovered that the bi-lingual English > experts in Russian were not focusing on the > texts, but rather coming to the texts with interpretive frameworks. > > Discovered this in 1984, when I undertook my first translation of a > Vygotsky text *Thinking and Speech*. My intention was to compare > (correct) my translation with the only published English translation > available *Thought and Language* (1962) by Hanfmann and Vakar, MIT Press. > Well, as soon as I held the Russian version of *Thinking and Speech* in > my hand, I realized the title had been mistranslated and the Russian > version of the book was twice as thick as the 1962 English translation. > When I started translating the chapters, I discovered that roughly half of > the paragraphs were omitted in a random fashion within the text. > > Many XMCA members first read* Thinking and Speech* in the full > translations that came out later in 1986 (Wertsch) and 1987 (Minick). But I > am of a different generation and had to discover the hard way the > inadequacies of the 1962 translation. Add to this that in 1984, I undertook > the translation of Thinking and Speech to prepare for my third attempt at > passing the Graduate Level Reading Exam in Russian at the University of > Chicago (the Hanfmann/Vakar translation would not have gotten a passing > grade). Well my thoughts were "screw this" - I am correcting the official > MIT publication while trying to pass my grad reading exam. Might as well > translate something that I am really interested in even if it has never > been translated. > > In 1983, my husband and I had presented our theory and research on the > development of creativity as a maturation of symbolic play at a conference > of the British Psychological Society in Wales. Wonder if Vygotsky wrote > anything about creativity? > What do you know, in a 1956 Russian publication there was a paper by > Vygotsky on the development of creative imagination. Translated it, passed > the reading exam with honors, and sent my translation to Jim Wertsch at > Northwestern University. Got a phone call from Jim Wertsch - told me that > Plenum needed translators for the *Collected Works* and that I could go > to study in Russia to study Vygotsky's writings. I replied that what I was > really interested in is 'creativity' and I want to see if Vygotsky wrote > anything else on that topic. Wertsch said "No, this is the only paper, > Vygotsky had no interest in creativity." I declined the offer to translate > for Plenum and to study in Russia. And all by myself, discovered that > Vygotsky had written two other papers on the development of creative > imagination, translated those papers and got them in press. > > I tell you this story because reading the text for yourself is a bold > thing to do. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > *Sent:* Monday, November 30, 2020 4:13 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Translations - Shona and Russian > > Many thanks to Zaza, whose translation of Tuku's song I'll be taking into > my class on Ethics, Emotions, and Education tonight. I think you can see > from her translation where you can go wrong with Google Translate, which > is, after all, just a way of linking up bits of texts that have been > previously translated by humans. Using the Google Translate function for > Shona, I thought the song referred to "raped by your roomate". Zaza says it > means a husband, which is expressed as the payer of bride price. At first I > thought this was an accident of history, similar to the fact that our word > "husband" means someone who looks after pigs, but of course if you listen > to Tuku's song Haasati Aziva you can see that if it is an accident of > history it's a very recent one that still casts a shadow. As Mary > said--this is the stuff of a pandemic: systemic, institutionalized, and as > a result blithe, indifferent and unaccountable power. As with AIDS, so too > with Covid 19. > > Anthony--I said I don't speak Russian. I started studying in 2005 (after a > short exchange with Mike) and took four years of formal classes in the > language, six to eight hours a week. I have been spending at least eight > hours a week reading Russian ever since. So when I look at a paragraph of > Vygotsky in Russian I don't usually see any words that I don't recognize. > When I do, I do what any Russian would do and look them up. Google > Translate works as a bilingual dictionary only the entries are larger than > the word and smaller than the clause. But human translators function more > like thesauruses, where the entries are not wordings but meanings. For that > reason I tend to use "Reverso", which gives whole paragraphs from the data > base so you can see the context. . > > When I meet Nikolai or Anna, I find it impossible to use more than a few > well-known phrases in Russian (mostly agreeable things like "Of course" and > "You're right!", which is quite unlike my normal way of thinking...). So I > think I do not speak Russian, although I have some reading knowledge of it. > Operationally what that means is that when I publish a translation, I need > a native speaker looking over my shoulder. Since I'm mostly translating > into Korean, I actually need two, and I am fortunate that I was born with > two shoulders, and even more fortunate that I have Dr. Kim Yongho, who is > better than I am in both languages. (But Yongho learned his Russian from > Rosetta Stone!) > > I have no objection to disentangling threads, but I don't really agree > with Antti (who, unless I am quite mistaken, also speaks a language that > utterly lacks articles) that this all belongs on a separate thread. To me, > anyway, the relevant points are three. > > a) Racism isn't an interpersonal matter, and still less is it an > intra-personal one: it's social, cultural, historical, material. That's why > we say it is systemic. And if it's systemic, it is part of the way we look > at other languages. Since Lewontin demonstrated the non-viability of race > as a unit of analysis for human communities, language has become a stand in > for race, and views about language are a stand-in for views about race. > That was, after all, where Arturo was looking. > > b) One way that views about language have become a stand-in for views > about race is that languages which lack articles are seen as deviant from > some universal grammar and hence defective in some way. My colleague's > "article-drop" parameter is actually part of a pattern of thinking that has > been part of mainstream linguistics since the late fifties and early > sixties, and is exemplified in the "Principles and Parameters" model of > Universal Grammar. Chomsky argued that languages like Italian which do not > require grammatical subjects as English does must have a setting that > permits the omission of this universally obligatory element. This is > nonsense. Italian does not drop pronouns; there's really no "pro" there to > drop. We do not, after all, go around saying that English is a > Korean-honorific-drop-language. Those who assume that languages are > genetically hard-wired (the LAD or the magical gene that according to > Chomsky created the capacity for human thought or the supposed correlation > between mutations in mitochondrial DNA and languages that was alleged by > Cavalli-Sforza) are making assumptions that are really not that different > from assumptions previously made about the cranial capacity of lesser > breeds without the law. > > c) Vygotsky was as much a man of his time as we are of our own. Some > writers (c.f. Aaro Toomela on the Cultural Praxis site recently) have > argued that Vygotsky believed in "primitive languages", e.g. the Bantu > languages, to which Shona belongs. As Zaza makes abundantly clear, Shona is > not primitive by any conceivable standard, and I have seen no convincing > evidence that Vygotsky ever made this assumption (he did quote missionaries > who clearly did make the assumption, but he is quite scathing about them on > precisely this point). Certainly the idea that some languages have only the > "indicative" or the "nominating" function but not the "signifying" function > is not a Vygotskyan one: a language that cannot signify is not a human > language, and any language that can signify can signify a concept. > Languages can vary according to the meanings that they actually do express, > just as registers within a language do. But human meaning potential is, if > not infinite (we will not be around forever), at least undetermined and > probably indeterminate. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Book with Nikolai Veresov > L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology > Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai > Veresov > See free downloadable pdf at: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!QdS_KYVZrQ85giPWdS2f7dudksKQedOABnc6FwQgvONs1TOKkd50jgD-_LYz3unHHZOGqg$ > > > Forthcoming in 2020: > L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. > Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David > Kellogg > > > On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 5:08 AM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > I translated Piaget's book on dialectics with the aid of google. There was > much work both pre- and post-googletranslate though. Part of this I put > down to understanding the domain, just as one can question translations if > one knows what they are about. > > Huw > > On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 at 18:53, Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Zaza, > > I had no idea that one could translate books without really speaking the > original language, as David claims about himself. > Nor did I realize the extent to which translating is about reading between > the lines, along with the lines themselves. Such an interesting topic . . . > > Perhaps of interest: > 1. A brief anecdote from David about a current Korean translation/summary > project: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGU5zV6zbLI__;!!Mih3wA!QdS_KYVZrQ85giPWdS2f7dudksKQedOABnc6FwQgvONs1TOKkd50jgD-_LYz3ukdeKuiHg$ > > (re: Vygotsky on emotions) > 2. An old xmca post on translating Vygotsky into Korean: > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2011_05.dir/msg00509.html > > I thought these were neat to hear about and maybe enjoyable or others as > well. > > Anthony > > > > On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 3:30 PM Zaza Kabayadondo < > zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com> wrote: > > I'm moving this to a new thread... > > Thank you for your question, David. I didn't realize people were using > Google Translate. It's great for some languages - not so much for anything > from Southern Africa at least as far as I've observed. > > Yes, I do speak Shona. I like to distinguish between functional Shona and > idiomatic Shona. Functional Shona is literal and idiomatic Shona is > literary (though spoken). I'm not a Shona linguist so I'm making up terms > for the distinction I perceive but there might already be a convention for > how Shona linguists describe the difference. Functional Shona is what you > will hear people using on the streets. It is a more literal or explicit way > of speaking and very similar to European meaning and sensemaking. In > functional Shona you might say "I am tired." "She arrived yesterday." It > some contexts it is considered rather crass to speak so directly of your > feelings, wants, needs. I contrast this to idiomatic Shona which is a > version of the language our elders spoke, it reflects pre-colonial Shona > culture and thinking because it "beats around the bush". You would rarely > directly ask a question, everything was a metaphor, a vague suggestion, > never explicitly spelt out. It is more diplomatic, more evasive, and can be > problematic when it comes to talking about social or political issues. Tuku > sings in this idiomatic style. Tuku's song *Bvuma* is the best example of > his style of which allows for double entendre (He is saying "Tolerance has > faded" but he could also mean "Just accept that you're old." > > Todii is about HIV/AIDS. Originally, "utachiwana" meant any virus or germ, > the underlying cause of an illness, but over time the only virus people > talk about is HIV. (In "Hutachiwana" the "h" is a modifier emphasizes you > mean "the virus"). The style is call-and-response which is typical in Shona > folk music, both traditional and contemporary. The call and its response > should be read as one sentence. > > As for the lyrics in question: > Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > *Translation: How it must hurt to be raped by the one you live with...**If > you have a virus * > Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma** ...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > *Translation:** How it must hurt to be raped by the man** who married you > ...**If you have a virus * > **The literal meaning is "by the one who paid roora (lobola/bride price)" > Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > *Translation: When he knows you have the virus...If you have a virus* > Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > *Translation: **And you know you have the virus...If you have a virus* > In the last two lines the response almost implies "hypothetically, let's > say you have a virus." And for me this is really where the song touches on > the sensibility of HIV/AIDS as it was experienced in Zimbabwe in the moment > of the song. Not knowing who has it, suspecting who has it etc. Tuku was > masterful with his play on words and structure. > > > On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 2:56 AM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Zaza-- > > Dude, I don't really speak Russian either, as Nikolai and Anna will tell > you (we only speak English). In my translation work I spend a lot more time > on Google Translate than I would like, and that's why I burden the list > with the queries you mention from time to time.. But I bet you speak Shona, > or at least understand a little. > > So maybe you can help. I'm using this tune from the late great Tuku > (Oliver Mtukudzi) in a class I am giving on sex education in Korea. I've > been told that it doesn't really mention AIDS/HIV explicitly, and I get > that--in fact, that's one of the reasons why I think it's useful for making > certain parallels between pandemics and also discussing HPV and other > issues I want to talk about. But I don't quite understand THIS verse--maybe > you can help me? > > Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > > So "Kana uinahwo utachiwana" means something like "If you get infected". > But what is the reference to being raped by your roommate? > > On the subject of this thread. Like voter fraud, racism is a very serious > charge, and the right has successfully made hay out of its seriousness. But > as with voter fraud they have made even more hay out of rendering the > charge unproveable, by removing its class content and rendering it a purely > subjective inclination. This is why, I think (I hope), Arturo and others > tend to raise this sort of thing in private off-list material that is so > much at variance with their public writings that it fairly attracts the > charge of hypocrisy or at least political timidity. After all, if you > really suspect your interlocutor of racism, it's incumbent on you to keep > your mouth and not just your eyes open. But you've got to put money where > your mouth is: you have to provide some evidence (e.g. the paper that > Harshad circulated on the list not too long ago). There are important > scientific issues we need to discuss which are actually not unrelated to > the one that Arturo was reacting to: whether you can accurately judge the > language proficiency of a person by their race or national origin (as I > have done in the second paragraph above). Not unrelated. But not identical > to either, else I would not have written that paragraph. > > Here's an example. A dear colleague of mine, who like the vast majority of > people in this country is not white and wouldn't know deficit linguistics > from a surplus, has just written a paper on why Korean children tend to > drop articles (i.e. "a" and "the"). He begins with the Chomskyan premise > that all nouns must, according to universal human grammars which are > hardwired at birth, be realized by "determiner phrases". What that means is > that a noun phrase like "the cat" is not really about a cat--it's about > "the", and the "the" is modified by "cat" (What kind of "the-ness" do you > mean? The cat kind!) > > But it's THIS, and not Vygotskyan, Hallidayan, or Bernsteinian > developmentalism, that is deficit linguistics. I won't say it is racist, > because unfortunately that term has lost its scientific content and become > nothing but a thought crime. But I will say that people who speak languages > without articles or languages that emphasize nouns over determiners (e.g. > Korean, Chinese, Russian) are not born with a birth defect (or "null spell > out", as the Chomskyans say). > > Does Shona have articles or not? Do you know? > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY0JssD8Hzc__;!!Mih3wA!QdS_KYVZrQ85giPWdS2f7dudksKQedOABnc6FwQgvONs1TOKkd50jgD-_LYz3umXktPnPw$ > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Book with Nikolai Veresov > L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology > Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai > Veresov > See free downloadable pdf at: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!QdS_KYVZrQ85giPWdS2f7dudksKQedOABnc6FwQgvONs1TOKkd50jgD-_LYz3unHHZOGqg$ > > > Forthcoming in 2020: > L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. > Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David > Kellogg > > > On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 6:02 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject matter > of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the *development of human > higher psychological functions*. (How that is "left," "right," or > otherwise is beyond me.) > > > Political propensities can be discerned across some (adult) developmental > stages. > > Huw > > > > > > -- > To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!QdS_KYVZrQ85giPWdS2f7dudksKQedOABnc6FwQgvONs1TOKkd50jgD-_LYz3unB34hoKQ$ > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201201/73706430/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SIV8-appel ? communications.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 107566 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201201/73706430/attachment.pdf From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Nov 30 18:06:54 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 19:06:54 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Translations - Shona and Russian In-Reply-To: References: <184527580.727.0@wordpress.com> <388d7c80-99c5-6655-57f0-e87711922e42@marxists.org> <54F5FCAE-0439-4029-B716-8D87A325430E@gmail.com> <7E63B0FF-F3C6-45A6-BE0C-C50EC238CBFB@gmail.com> <1BA777A7-ABC5-4855-A9E8-49B991C34F2D@wisc.edu> <2A94F7FE-D12A-4161-9149-4305F5F5C989@uio.no> <521e6d47-9dd1-ae21-e28a-35e7faa0f821@marxists.org> <1606523343561.66632@gc.cuny.edu> Message-ID: <243B42F1-C1AA-4F10-A59C-20ECA65BDEB9@gmail.com> David, This is very good dialog and makes me glad to have learned enough of linguistics to make sense of it. I hope those of us who have been called linguists aren?t perceived as insufferable pedants, hell-bent on silencing the masses. It ain?t true! I was a little worried about what you did with Google Translate until you described to David the dues you have paid learning written, academic Russian. It makes your work credible and essential, and you have native speakers/writers looking over your shoulder. I agree with you that no culture is primitive in their language, because IMHO meaning potential in any culture is infinite. Henry > On Nov 30, 2020, at 3:13 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > Many thanks to Zaza, whose translation of Tuku's song I'll be taking into my class on Ethics, Emotions, and Education tonight. I think you can see from her translation where you can go wrong with Google Translate, which is, after all, just a way of linking up bits of texts that have been previously translated by humans. Using the Google Translate function for Shona, I thought the song referred to "raped by your roomate". Zaza says it means a husband, which is expressed as the payer of bride price. At first I thought this was an accident of history, similar to the fact that our word "husband" means someone who looks after pigs, but of course if you listen to Tuku's song Haasati Aziva you can see that if it is an accident of history it's a very recent one that still casts a shadow. As Mary said--this is the stuff of a pandemic: systemic, institutionalized, and as a result blithe, indifferent and unaccountable power. As with AIDS, so too with Covid 19. > > Anthony--I said I don't speak Russian. I started studying in 2005 (after a short exchange with Mike) and took four years of formal classes in the language, six to eight hours a week. I have been spending at least eight hours a week reading Russian ever since. So when I look at a paragraph of Vygotsky in Russian I don't usually see any words that I don't recognize. When I do, I do what any Russian would do and look them up. Google Translate works as a bilingual dictionary only the entries are larger than the word and smaller than the clause. But human translators function more like thesauruses, where the entries are not wordings but meanings. For that reason I tend to use "Reverso", which gives whole paragraphs from the data base so you can see the context. . > > When I meet Nikolai or Anna, I find it impossible to use more than a few well-known phrases in Russian (mostly agreeable things like "Of course" and "You're right!", which is quite unlike my normal way of thinking...). So I think I do not speak Russian, although I have some reading knowledge of it. Operationally what that means is that when I publish a translation, I need a native speaker looking over my shoulder. Since I'm mostly translating into Korean, I actually need two, and I am fortunate that I was born with two shoulders, and even more fortunate that I have Dr. Kim Yongho, who is better than I am in both languages. (But Yongho learned his Russian from Rosetta Stone!) > > I have no objection to disentangling threads, but I don't really agree with Antti (who, unless I am quite mistaken, also speaks a language that utterly lacks articles) that this all belongs on a separate thread. To me, anyway, the relevant points are three. > > a) Racism isn't an interpersonal matter, and still less is it an intra-personal one: it's social, cultural, historical, material. That's why we say it is systemic. And if it's systemic, it is part of the way we look at other languages. Since Lewontin demonstrated the non-viability of race as a unit of analysis for human communities, language has become a stand in for race, and views about language are a stand-in for views about race. That was, after all, where Arturo was looking. > > b) One way that views about language have become a stand-in for views about race is that languages which lack articles are seen as deviant from some universal grammar and hence defective in some way. My colleague's "article-drop" parameter is actually part of a pattern of thinking that has been part of mainstream linguistics since the late fifties and early sixties, and is exemplified in the "Principles and Parameters" model of Universal Grammar. Chomsky argued that languages like Italian which do not require grammatical subjects as English does must have a setting that permits the omission of this universally obligatory element. This is nonsense. Italian does not drop pronouns; there's really no "pro" there to drop. We do not, after all, go around saying that English is a Korean-honorific-drop-language. Those who assume that languages are genetically hard-wired (the LAD or the magical gene that according to Chomsky created the capacity for human thought or the supposed correlation between mutations in mitochondrial DNA and languages that was alleged by Cavalli-Sforza) are making assumptions that are really not that different from assumptions previously made about the cranial capacity of lesser breeds without the law. > > c) Vygotsky was as much a man of his time as we are of our own. Some writers (c.f. Aaro Toomela on the Cultural Praxis site recently) have argued that Vygotsky believed in "primitive languages", e.g. the Bantu languages, to which Shona belongs. As Zaza makes abundantly clear, Shona is not primitive by any conceivable standard, and I have seen no convincing evidence that Vygotsky ever made this assumption (he did quote missionaries who clearly did make the assumption, but he is quite scathing about them on precisely this point). Certainly the idea that some languages have only the "indicative" or the "nominating" function but not the "signifying" function is not a Vygotskyan one: a language that cannot signify is not a human language, and any language that can signify can signify a concept. Languages can vary according to the meanings that they actually do express, just as registers within a language do. But human meaning potential is, if not infinite (we will not be around forever), at least undetermined and probably indeterminate. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Book with Nikolai Veresov > L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology > Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai Veresov > See free downloadable pdf at: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!TiO2m6fI0Yj4kWASI3uw4hSBXD1DvtQD2cEma9sMsEIvof_iEKnEx-yeTd5nRYdAylXaKQ$ > > Forthcoming in 2020: > L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. > Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David Kellogg > > > On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 5:08 AM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > I translated Piaget's book on dialectics with the aid of google. There was much work both pre- and post-googletranslate though. Part of this I put down to understanding the domain, just as one can question translations if one knows what they are about. > > Huw > > On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 at 18:53, Anthony Barra > wrote: > Zaza, > > I had no idea that one could translate books without really speaking the original language, as David claims about himself. > Nor did I realize the extent to which translating is about reading between the lines, along with the lines themselves. Such an interesting topic . . . > > Perhaps of interest: > 1. A brief anecdote from David about a current Korean translation/summary project: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGU5zV6zbLI__;!!Mih3wA!TiO2m6fI0Yj4kWASI3uw4hSBXD1DvtQD2cEma9sMsEIvof_iEKnEx-yeTd5nRYcb9ombaA$ (re: Vygotsky on emotions) > 2. An old xmca post on translating Vygotsky into Korean:http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2011_05.dir/msg00509.html > > I thought these were neat to hear about and maybe enjoyable or others as well. > > Anthony > > > > On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 3:30 PM Zaza Kabayadondo > wrote: > I'm moving this to a new thread... > > Thank you for your question, David. I didn't realize people were using Google Translate. It's great for some languages - not so much for anything from Southern Africa at least as far as I've observed. > > Yes, I do speak Shona. I like to distinguish between functional Shona and idiomatic Shona. Functional Shona is literal and idiomatic Shona is literary (though spoken). I'm not a Shona linguist so I'm making up terms for the distinction I perceive but there might already be a convention for how Shona linguists describe the difference. Functional Shona is what you will hear people using on the streets. It is a more literal or explicit way of speaking and very similar to European meaning and sensemaking. In functional Shona you might say "I am tired." "She arrived yesterday." It some contexts it is considered rather crass to speak so directly of your feelings, wants, needs. I contrast this to idiomatic Shona which is a version of the language our elders spoke, it reflects pre-colonial Shona culture and thinking because it "beats around the bush". You would rarely directly ask a question, everything was a metaphor, a vague suggestion, never explicitly spelt out. It is more diplomatic, more evasive, and can be problematic when it comes to talking about social or political issues. Tuku sings in this idiomatic style. Tuku's song Bvuma is the best example of his style of which allows for double entendre (He is saying "Tolerance has faded" but he could also mean "Just accept that you're old." > > Todii is about HIV/AIDS. Originally, "utachiwana" meant any virus or germ, the underlying cause of an illness, but over time the only virus people talk about is HIV. (In "Hutachiwana" the "h" is a modifier emphasizes you mean "the virus"). The style is call-and-response which is typical in Shona folk music, both traditional and contemporary. The call and its response should be read as one sentence. > > As for the lyrics in question: > Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > Translation: How it must hurt to be raped by the one you live with...If you have a virus > Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma** ...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > Translation: How it must hurt to be raped by the man** who married you ...If you have a virus > **The literal meaning is "by the one who paid roora (lobola/bride price)" > Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > Translation: When he knows you have the virus...If you have a virus > Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > Translation: And you know you have the virus...If you have a virus > In the last two lines the response almost implies "hypothetically, let's say you have a virus." And for me this is really where the song touches on the sensibility of HIV/AIDS as it was experienced in Zimbabwe in the moment of the song. Not knowing who has it, suspecting who has it etc. Tuku was masterful with his play on words and structure. > > > On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 2:56 AM David Kellogg > wrote: > Zaza-- > > Dude, I don't really speak Russian either, as Nikolai and Anna will tell you (we only speak English). In my translation work I spend a lot more time on Google Translate than I would like, and that's why I burden the list with the queries you mention from time to time.. But I bet you speak Shona, or at least understand a little. > > So maybe you can help. I'm using this tune from the late great Tuku (Oliver Mtukudzi) in a class I am giving on sex education in Korea. I've been told that it doesn't really mention AIDS/HIV explicitly, and I get that--in fact, that's one of the reasons why I think it's useful for making certain parallels between pandemics and also discussing HPV and other issues I want to talk about. But I don't quite understand THIS verse--maybe you can help me? > > Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana > (Kana uinahwo utachiwana) > > So "Kana uinahwo utachiwana" means something like "If you get infected". But what is the reference to being raped by your roommate? > > On the subject of this thread. Like voter fraud, racism is a very serious charge, and the right has successfully made hay out of its seriousness. But as with voter fraud they have made even more hay out of rendering the charge unproveable, by removing its class content and rendering it a purely subjective inclination. This is why, I think (I hope), Arturo and others tend to raise this sort of thing in private off-list material that is so much at variance with their public writings that it fairly attracts the charge of hypocrisy or at least political timidity. After all, if you really suspect your interlocutor of racism, it's incumbent on you to keep your mouth and not just your eyes open. But you've got to put money where your mouth is: you have to provide some evidence (e.g. the paper that Harshad circulated on the list not too long ago). There are important scientific issues we need to discuss which are actually not unrelated to the one that Arturo was reacting to: whether you can accurately judge the language proficiency of a person by their race or national origin (as I have done in the second paragraph above). Not unrelated. But not identical to either, else I would not have written that paragraph. > > Here's an example. A dear colleague of mine, who like the vast majority of people in this country is not white and wouldn't know deficit linguistics from a surplus, has just written a paper on why Korean children tend to drop articles (i.e. "a" and "the"). He begins with the Chomskyan premise that all nouns must, according to universal human grammars which are hardwired at birth, be realized by "determiner phrases". What that means is that a noun phrase like "the cat" is not really about a cat--it's about "the", and the "the" is modified by "cat" (What kind of "the-ness" do you mean? The cat kind!) > > But it's THIS, and not Vygotskyan, Hallidayan, or Bernsteinian developmentalism, that is deficit linguistics. I won't say it is racist, because unfortunately that term has lost its scientific content and become nothing but a thought crime. But I will say that people who speak languages without articles or languages that emphasize nouns over determiners (e.g. Korean, Chinese, Russian) are not born with a birth defect (or "null spell out", as the Chomskyans say). > > Does Shona have articles or not? Do you know? > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY0JssD8Hzc__;!!Mih3wA!TiO2m6fI0Yj4kWASI3uw4hSBXD1DvtQD2cEma9sMsEIvof_iEKnEx-yeTd5nRYdF4p4vZQ$ > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Book with Nikolai Veresov > L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology > Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai Veresov > See free downloadable pdf at: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!TiO2m6fI0Yj4kWASI3uw4hSBXD1DvtQD2cEma9sMsEIvof_iEKnEx-yeTd5nRYdAylXaKQ$ > > Forthcoming in 2020: > L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age. > Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David Kellogg > > > On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 6:02 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject matter of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the development of human higher psychological functions. (How that is "left," "right," or otherwise is beyond me.) > > Political propensities can be discerned across some (adult) developmental stages. > > Huw > > > > > -- > To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!TiO2m6fI0Yj4kWASI3uw4hSBXD1DvtQD2cEma9sMsEIvof_iEKnEx-yeTd5nRYehnCLShw$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20201130/8740d568/attachment.html