[Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ?

Fri May 15 12:21:55 PDT 2020

Let’s see  what others have to say on this,Annalisa.  I have taken my two
turns for the.  😷
Mike

On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 11:52 AM Annalisa Aguilar <annalisa@unm.edu> wrote:

> Hi Mike,
>
> But is not that application of the political after the science and not
> before its application?
>
> Or is this a chicken and egg argument of which comes first?
>
> Then, have I hit a vein here, that there can be no objective science? That
> its application can only ever be political?
>
> Yet...I consider Galileo for example, vis á vis the Catholic Church's need
> to adhere to a geocentric model of our solar system. I do not think that
> Galileo intended to overturn the church in pursuing his curiosity of the
> stars; it wasn't his intention to be political, and yet his discoveries
> became ever so political, much to his regret.
>
> I think that is why I say the politics comes after the science, not
> before. But feel free to disabuse me of that reflection if you like.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Annalisa
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> on behalf of mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
> *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2020 12:28 PM
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ?
>
>
> *  [EXTERNAL]*
> It seems like being conscious of the politics is essential, Annalisa. The
> claims for "cultural/cognitive deficit" of poor
> people of color in this country cannot be understood without them.
> mike
>
> On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 11:20 AM Annalisa Aguilar <annalisa@unm.edu>
> wrote:
>
> Andy, et al,
>
> I sort of came to this a little late in the thread, but I can offer that
> Vera John-Steiner didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian
> theory, but as I learn more about the word (thank you Mike), I can see how
> once a word is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard for the
> association to be broken.
>
> I think it's that way with words all the time coming and going out of
> favor, or meanings shifting, like the game of telephone, but across
> generations and cultures.
>
> Might I contribute to the discussion by asking whether the use of
> "sociocultural" was also a means of making the theories more available in
> the West (at least in the US). It seems there was redscare
> (you are welcome read the double entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as
> you like) prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the Marxist
> "brand" to access the actual theories on child development? In other words,
> to depoliticize the science?
>
> I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but as time passes, I can
> see its problems.
>
> For me, I had preferred the word because historical was always a given for
> me. In concern of the here and now, the real difficulty I had thought was
> understanding the social- how interactions between the child and the
> caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the -cultural, how the culture
> impacts thought, those things are more of the micro level, but also
> sociocultural, how the two also can interact and influence one another and
> that combined bears its own signature on the mind and its development.  As
> far as History (capital H) that is sort of difficult to measure when we are
> talking about child development as there is very little history that a
> child has, unless we are talking about genetics, I suppose.
>
> Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect and am enriched by the
> discourse in which we now we find ourselves immersed about it so thanks to
> all for this.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Annalisa
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> on behalf of Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM
> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ?
>
>
> *  [EXTERNAL]*
>
> In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have
> garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best.
>
> Jim Wertsch said:
>
> Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I
> consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology
> and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches
> that I was building from.  I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985
> book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices
> of the Mind.  It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about
> the Vygotsky tradition.  Instead, the terms there were “socio-historical”
> or “cultural-historical.”
>
> Mike Cole told me:
>
> In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term
> "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's
> ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian
> followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head,
> apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets
> prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a
> sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what
> he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in
> Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists
> had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term
> "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like
> Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted
> to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT
> emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the
> various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the
> Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky.
> CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being
> used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History
> in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion.
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUv1JKsaYg$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUuwMTbXLQ$>
> On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote:
>
> I should have reported progress with my question.
>
> Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between
> these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the
> various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin
> referred to on his academia.edu
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://academia.edu__;!!Mih3wA!T-K2m4yiGthGy1GG1vlxg-AgcWosm4EEjAbBiF8DIV5AKC1B8KrOc3tJmIDud0iI8-ydgQ$>
> page for us all to read.
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!VVRQoZFt83DvnWiFZcS8eMvxhRDqa0c4SXL62cA9aU3zaNiN7HXOjUia3ELpjhiHML_XhA$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!R2PQRv7SmtSpShBHHVPDEjIG1-ol_VEYh22ETbbkrOTaZbmV95HyZtHr1MBppGr6Y2oI9g$>
>
> As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you.
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!R2PQRv7SmtSpShBHHVPDEjIG1-ol_VEYh22ETbbkrOTaZbmV95HyZtHr1MBppGqUcVpkyg$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!R2PQRv7SmtSpShBHHVPDEjIG1-ol_VEYh22ETbbkrOTaZbmV95HyZtHr1MBppGoS67wBRQ$>
> On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote:
>
> Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see
> this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity
> multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what
> the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for
> analysis of the separate dimensions).  The different terms that Veresov
> points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components
> that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment.  To those
> we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as
> consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics
> and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human
> neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world).  That is
> the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the
> components more than others and he was acting nominally as a
> psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these
> components.
>
> I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am
> talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does
> not necessarily mean triangles all the time.  Rather activity is humans in
> motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations.
>
> While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different
> concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in
> being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies.
>
> BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social
> sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication
> with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human").  This
> project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts.
>
> Chuck
> ----
> די פאַרייניקטע שטאַטן איז אַ פאָלק פון ימאַגראַנץ
> الولايات المتحدة هي أمة من المهاجرين
> Los Estados Unidos es una nación de inmigrantes.
> The U.S. is a nation of immigrants.
> History will judge.
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!VVRQoZFt83DvnWiFZcS8eMvxhRDqa0c4SXL62cA9aU3zaNiN7HXOjUia3ELpjhjLnsUBbg$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!UhKa4f0rCaFbK573eepABBebep9QDP87JqQVUnd9uIfxETz6hRUnOR46PYaTgoSDGY6tLw$>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!VVRQoZFt83DvnWiFZcS8eMvxhRDqa0c4SXL62cA9aU3zaNiN7HXOjUia3ELpjhgWrXgcVg$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!UhKa4f0rCaFbK573eepABBebep9QDP87JqQVUnd9uIfxETz6hRUnOR46PYaTgoSePA_SrQ$>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!VVRQoZFt83DvnWiFZcS8eMvxhRDqa0c4SXL62cA9aU3zaNiN7HXOjUia3ELpjhib5tgy2Q$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!UhKa4f0rCaFbK573eepABBebep9QDP87JqQVUnd9uIfxETz6hRUnOR46PYaTgoRwwTwk4Q$>
>
>
> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Interesting question (and follow-ups) here.  Thanks, Andy.
>
> While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any
> value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!VVRQoZFt83DvnWiFZcS8eMvxhRDqa0c4SXL62cA9aU3zaNiN7HXOjUia3ELpjhiMwGBQjQ$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!WLyceskZQL4AGQL-pVuwd-RH-yfvzQvsIVerMU367Nw8BZjwVLHdZ94SZfyfIX_sfjyW7w$> "Pros
> and Cons of (terminological) Diversity"
>
> As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so
> sure the cons outweigh the pros here.
>
> But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could
> Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined?  If
> so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints?
> I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm
> more outsider than insider and don't really know.
>
> Thank you for any insight.
>
> Anthony
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net> wrote:
>
> I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch’s, Andy.
>
> Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this
> book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their
> view it’s the best term:
>
> Wertsch, J. V., del Río, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). *Sociocultural
> studies of mind.* Cambridge University Press.
>
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>
> Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the
> term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word
> "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is
> the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices
> of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.worldcat.org/title/voices-of-the-mind-a-sociocultural-approach-to-mediated-action/oclc/797855062&referer=brief_results__;!!Mih3wA!WsWX2sD5ZfUnBEp3uLEVG7T0NliMnbPpuJl6VOoxtiFfKP5msJWjbZPFaCQ6jDWDMZtFSg$>"
> published by Harvard University Press in 1991.
>
> Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context
> dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this
> book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and
> artefacts mediating action.
>
> Thanks again to all
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!WsWX2sD5ZfUnBEp3uLEVG7T0NliMnbPpuJl6VOoxtiFfKP5msJWjbZPFaCQ6jDWcr53a1g$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!WsWX2sD5ZfUnBEp3uLEVG7T0NliMnbPpuJl6VOoxtiFfKP5msJWjbZPFaCQ6jDW3ivveVA$>
> On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote:
>
> Andy--
>
> Go to to the Google N-gram site itself.
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!VVRQoZFt83DvnWiFZcS8eMvxhRDqa0c4SXL62cA9aU3zaNiN7HXOjUia3ELpjhhc5i5tNA$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!Wt7qmS7sdvLo3anWG71NQFUJMvyFBqEy-mStjfAI_HEUpY8D8dQt5zHkl12Ld90MDkv2Mw$>
> Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the
> years you'll get better granularity in the document search.
> On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click
> on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search.
>
> dk
>
>
>
> David Kellogg
> Sangmyung University
>
> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto.
> Outlines, Spring 2020
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VVRQoZFt83DvnWiFZcS8eMvxhRDqa0c4SXL62cA9aU3zaNiN7HXOjUia3ELpjhgDc-GxZw$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!Wt7qmS7sdvLo3anWG71NQFUJMvyFBqEy-mStjfAI_HEUpY8D8dQt5zHkl12Ld92Vl0flPg$>
>
> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *
> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*"
>  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VVRQoZFt83DvnWiFZcS8eMvxhRDqa0c4SXL62cA9aU3zaNiN7HXOjUia3ELpjhgIrowC2w$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Wt7qmS7sdvLo3anWG71NQFUJMvyFBqEy-mStjfAI_HEUpY8D8dQt5zHkl12Ld92EeQenpA$>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net> wrote:
>
> The earliest use of the term ‘sociocultural’ I’ve been able to find in
> English is this:
>
> A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero
>
> In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press
>
> Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use
> the term ‘sociocultural’ frequently.
>
> The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books,
> and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study
> of the Mexican.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
> On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>
> That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How
> do we find out who wrote what in 1988?
>
> And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of
> seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers,
> peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing
> higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in
> interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice.
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!XAtiPQXEOK3tz8RHCURqNz0psvv8Js3PxWmYUmHtZyY5j_IK-RqcFDVph7-NJ5i1rCBdtQ$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!XAtiPQXEOK3tz8RHCURqNz0psvv8Js3PxWmYUmHtZyY5j_IK-RqcFDVph7-NJ5gDytDZfw$>
> On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote:
>
> Andy:
>
> I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but
> here's what I got.
>
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!VVRQoZFt83DvnWiFZcS8eMvxhRDqa0c4SXL62cA9aU3zaNiN7HXOjUia3ELpjhiALl_eAg$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!T9TXqTQDd-8tvv5PfuxbPkx6Drdw0VlIrRNfcypZApQv2jnziHRkeAppccOVAZEmjetMCg$>"
> width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0
> frameborder=0 scrolling=no
>
> So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to
> the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only
> books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after
> 1992 is Vygotsky though.
>
> Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very
> different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the
> trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally.
>
>
> David Kellogg
> Sangmyung University
>
> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto.
> Outlines, Spring 2020
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VVRQoZFt83DvnWiFZcS8eMvxhRDqa0c4SXL62cA9aU3zaNiN7HXOjUia3ELpjhgDc-GxZw$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!T9TXqTQDd-8tvv5PfuxbPkx6Drdw0VlIrRNfcypZApQv2jnziHRkeAppccOVAZFjmWjmLg$>
>
> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *
> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*"
>  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VVRQoZFt83DvnWiFZcS8eMvxhRDqa0c4SXL62cA9aU3zaNiN7HXOjUia3ELpjhgIrowC2w$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T9TXqTQDd-8tvv5PfuxbPkx6Drdw0VlIrRNfcypZApQv2jnziHRkeAppccOVAZGMmypSYw$>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>
> Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology"
> originated?
>
> Andy
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!WBIr3_zzidcxaloVcp2qUX4U6WR3f7enQ2z2gvamcdo3Ihy82L4ZkR-PgfCDASisbYxsxw$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!WBIr3_zzidcxaloVcp2qUX4U6WR3f7enQ2z2gvamcdo3Ihy82L4ZkR-PgfCDASiXKr5OJw$>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> “It is education which should play the central role in the transformation
> of man - this road of conscious social formation of new generations, the
> basic form to alter the historical human type. *New generations and new
> forms of their education represent the main route which history will follow
> whilst creating the new type of man. * Vygotsky (1932?; 1994, p.81).
> ---------------------------------------------------
> For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other
> members of LCHC, visit
> lchc.ucsd.edu.  For archival materials and a narrative history of the
> research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu.
>
>
> --

“It is education which should play the central role in the transformation
of man - this road of conscious social formation of new generations, the
basic form to alter the historical human type. *New generations and new
forms of their education represent the main route which history will follow
whilst creating the new type of man. * Vygotsky (1932?; 1994, p.81).
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For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members
of LCHC, visit
lchc.ucsd.edu.  For archival materials and a narrative history of the
research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu.
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