From laure.kloetzer@gmail.com Fri May 1 08:55:05 2020 From: laure.kloetzer@gmail.com (Laure Kloetzer) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 17:55:05 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zagorsk and consciousness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Sorry to come back only now to this already old discussion, but I finally had the chance to watch the documentary Butterflies of Zagorsk and was wondering whether this line of teaching deaf-blind children was still active in Russia ? I couldn't find the answer, if it has been discussed before, in XMCA archives... Best regards to all, Laure Kloetzer Le lun. 9 mars 2020 ? 00:44, mike cole a ?crit : > Wagner, Peg et al - > > There are several films here: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=suvorov*blind&oq=suvorov*blind&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.6615j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8__;Kys!!Mih3wA!VSna-a9MgWw2fjW-csBTyd6yTZnHXnDRgQ3ViCgEDQPhNbQugKUh1BcZrk3lXNowSiPzJA$ > > > I believe that if you write to him, Sasha Suvorov would be glad to help. > He has continued to be an active scholar/activist in the Putin era. > If you reach him, say hello. :-) > mike > > > > > On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 4:22 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit > wrote: > >> I have the Portuguese version, and it seems to be the only one available. >> The quality is very bad, you can't hear the dialogue sometimes, and the >> translation is bad to say the least. It is what I have been using in my >> classes in Brazil, but since it is dubbed in Portuguese I can't share it >> with non Portuguese speakers. >> >> Wagner >> >> On Sun, Mar 8, 2020, 18:39 Tom Richardson >> wrote: >> >>> >>> Wagner Luiz - not good quality and in Portugese ???? >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x24gaj1__;!!Mih3wA!VSna-a9MgWw2fjW-csBTyd6yTZnHXnDRgQ3ViCgEDQPhNbQugKUh1BcZrk3lXNohphLc8Q$ >>> >>> TomRichardson >>> >>> On Sun, 8 Mar 2020 at 15:00, Wagner Luiz Schmit >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear colleagues, >>>> >>>> Did anybody else tried to replicate or something similar to the >>>> Meshcheryakov experiment at Zagorsk with deaf-blind children? >>>> >>>> Is there any description of the process of education of deaf-blind born >>>> children? >>>> >>>> And is there another discussion on the problem of consciousness in CHAT >>>> besides the works of Bakhurst and Mikhailov? Specially taking into account >>>> new discoveries in the field of neurology like those described in the book >>>> "The conscious instinct" by Michael Gazzaniga? >>>> >>>> And if anyone has the documentary "Butterflies of Zagorsk" by bbc in >>>> good quality, please let me know. >>>> >>>> Wagner >>>> >>>> > > -- > Critique is essential to all democracy. Not only does democracy > require the freedom to criticize and need critical impulses. Democracy is > nothing less than defined by critique. T.Adorno > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other > members of LCHC, visit > lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200501/4a520a66/attachment.html From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Fri May 1 09:17:09 2020 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 16:17:09 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: As of 2020, the American Century is Over In-Reply-To: References: <85fc2557-3931-47ff-12d4-267e9281a955@marxists.org> <7F106666-4E69-4606-AAB0-10EE9E7A733D@gmail.com> <255B3664-FD24-4025-9854-0B5D8EFA2962@gmail.com> <1c1c059f-f9a9-3606-ae1c-56d0626dd7e6@marxists.org> <4BF1F09B-8C62-4B6B-A573-27F80EDBF7D4@gmail.com> <6EA7437D-09DC-4B52-B00B-218E674D1B85@gmail.com> <8BB24F8E-61F8-4181-B071-CC8AB20CF0A9@cantab.net> <616B25C5-D590-467D-9747-0B0D21217139@gmail.com> , Message-ID: 'Phillip ? Yes, but not ?rather than? ? I?d say ?and also.?' sure, i can accept that. 'And some figured worlds make headlines; others are almost invisible unless you?re looking for them.' absolutely - one reason i rely on history, anthropology, psychology, philosophy, critical race theory, queer theory, critical feminist theory and ethnography. and so i like to read discussions that i from a wider range of perspectives and diversity. 'Good history, Thanks ? H' and history is being made today with the May Day strikes of workers employed by Amazon, Walmart, Target, and other multi-billion dollar corporations. the emphasis in on providing worker safety and a living wage over profits for CEO's and stockholders. best - phillip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200501/ffc77e1b/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri May 1 09:47:07 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 09:47:07 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: As of 2020, the American Century is Over In-Reply-To: References: <85fc2557-3931-47ff-12d4-267e9281a955@marxists.org> <7F106666-4E69-4606-AAB0-10EE9E7A733D@gmail.com> <255B3664-FD24-4025-9854-0B5D8EFA2962@gmail.com> <1c1c059f-f9a9-3606-ae1c-56d0626dd7e6@marxists.org> <4BF1F09B-8C62-4B6B-A573-27F80EDBF7D4@gmail.com> <6EA7437D-09DC-4B52-B00B-218E674D1B85@gmail.com> <8BB24F8E-61F8-4181-B071-CC8AB20CF0A9@cantab.net> <616B25C5-D590-467D-9747-0B0D21217139@gmail.com> Message-ID: Henry So what is the full statement of what you and Phillip have come to agree on? I am old and slow so its hard for me to integrate across and along threads of the discussion. The integration/dialogue with figured world theory a la Holland fits naturally into the kind of chat theory I proposed in Cultural Psych. Both Dottie and I were influenced by Roy D'Andrade and his students who were often her co-authors. This line of cognitive anth grew up at UCSD where script theories met parallel distributed processing systems. Figurative worlds theory and empirical work can be a super useful lens through which to see micro and macro, enriching the cultural side of chat's world view(s). It sure would be nice to invent some way to allow these years long conversations to accumulate enough to enable some knowledge accumulation beyond the text of the moment and the whims of the individual participants. A tool for collective reflection. Certainly there must be some sort of data mining program we could let loose on the archive (!) mike On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 9:20 AM White, Phillip wrote: > > 'Phillip ? Yes, but not ?rather than? ? I?d say ?and also.?' > > sure, i can accept that. > > 'And some figured worlds make headlines; others are almost invisible > unless you?re looking for them.' > > absolutely - one reason i rely on history, anthropology, > psychology, philosophy, critical race theory, queer theory, critical > feminist theory and ethnography. and so i like to read discussions that i > from a wider range of perspectives and diversity. > > 'Good history, Thanks ? H' > > and history is being made today with the May Day strikes of workers > employed by Amazon, Walmart, Target, and other multi-billion dollar > corporations. the emphasis in on providing worker safety and a living wage > over profits for CEO's and stockholders. > > best - phillip > -- Those who ignore history are bound to repeat it... and so are those who do not. Anon--------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For archival materials and a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200501/ae852d74/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri May 1 09:57:17 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 09:57:17 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zagorsk and consciousness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Laura-- Yes, there is still a lot of interest from many directions in the Zagorsk experiment. There are a couple of articles in Journal of Russian and East European Psychology a few years ago critical of Mescheryakov, I'lyenkov, Mikhailov and colleagues for exaggerating their claims about the children's initial states. It has had a rocky history in the Post-Soviet era. If you visit the lchc aubio using this link, https://lchcautobio.ucsd.edu/polyphonic-autobiography/section-4/chapter-9/ it will take you to some helpful links. Alexander Suvorov is alive and well, last heard, and accessible by email. Will wonders never cease. mike On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 8:58 AM Laure Kloetzer wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > Sorry to come back only now to this already old discussion, but I finally > had the chance to watch the documentary Butterflies of Zagorsk and was > wondering whether this line of teaching deaf-blind children was still > active in Russia ? I couldn't find the answer, if it has been discussed > before, in XMCA archives... > Best regards to all, > Laure Kloetzer > > > Le lun. 9 mars 2020 ? 00:44, mike cole a ?crit : > >> Wagner, Peg et al - >> >> There are several films here: >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=suvorov*blind&oq=suvorov*blind&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.6615j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8__;Kys!!Mih3wA!RTusr16YwTnZopCfbrovu6bHoJFZPQqB6SeuoNYF2C-fVYU5BYQnsWNjN911lGATuEK8oQ$ >> >> >> >> I believe that if you write to him, Sasha Suvorov would be glad to help. >> He has continued to be an active scholar/activist in the Putin era. >> If you reach him, say hello. :-) >> mike >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 4:22 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit < >> wagner.schmit@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I have the Portuguese version, and it seems to be the only one >>> available. The quality is very bad, you can't hear the dialogue sometimes, >>> and the translation is bad to say the least. It is what I have been using >>> in my classes in Brazil, but since it is dubbed in Portuguese I can't share >>> it with non Portuguese speakers. >>> >>> Wagner >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2020, 18:39 Tom Richardson < >>> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Wagner Luiz - not good quality and in Portugese ???? >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x24gaj1__;!!Mih3wA!RTusr16YwTnZopCfbrovu6bHoJFZPQqB6SeuoNYF2C-fVYU5BYQnsWNjN911lGA9W1XFMw$ >>>> >>>> >>>> TomRichardson >>>> >>>> On Sun, 8 Mar 2020 at 15:00, Wagner Luiz Schmit < >>>> wagner.schmit@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear colleagues, >>>>> >>>>> Did anybody else tried to replicate or something similar to the >>>>> Meshcheryakov experiment at Zagorsk with deaf-blind children? >>>>> >>>>> Is there any description of the process of education of deaf-blind >>>>> born children? >>>>> >>>>> And is there another discussion on the problem of consciousness in >>>>> CHAT besides the works of Bakhurst and Mikhailov? Specially taking into >>>>> account new discoveries in the field of neurology like those described in >>>>> the book "The conscious instinct" by Michael Gazzaniga? >>>>> >>>>> And if anyone has the documentary "Butterflies of Zagorsk" by bbc in >>>>> good quality, please let me know. >>>>> >>>>> Wagner >>>>> >>>>> >> >> -- >> Critique is essential to all democracy. Not only does democracy >> require the freedom to criticize and need critical impulses. Democracy is >> nothing less than defined by critique. T.Adorno >> --------------------------------------------------- >> For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other >> members of LCHC, visit >> lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit >> lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> >> -- Those who ignore history are bound to repeat it... and so are those who do not. Anon--------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For archival materials and a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200501/454160f8/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri May 1 10:29:41 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 11:29:41 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: As of 2020, the American Century is Over In-Reply-To: References: <85fc2557-3931-47ff-12d4-267e9281a955@marxists.org> <7F106666-4E69-4606-AAB0-10EE9E7A733D@gmail.com> <255B3664-FD24-4025-9854-0B5D8EFA2962@gmail.com> <1c1c059f-f9a9-3606-ae1c-56d0626dd7e6@marxists.org> <4BF1F09B-8C62-4B6B-A573-27F80EDBF7D4@gmail.com> <6EA7437D-09DC-4B52-B00B-218E674D1B85@gmail.com> <8BB24F8E-61F8-4181-B071-CC8AB20CF0A9@cantab.net> <616B25C5-D590-467D-9747-0B0D21217139@gmail.com> Message-ID: <72DBF7D2-858A-4156-982A-5ED483EF6217@gmail.com> Hi Mike, I am having the same problem of integrating ?along and across threads of discussion?. I have been a lurker, so I believe you are mixing me up with someone else. Did it have to do with the discussion between Phillip, Helena and Martin? I am not even sure what a ?figured world? is, though I tried to find out a little while ago by googling. I came up with something in discourse analysis with mention of Gee. I wondered if your work in the 5th Dimension is relevant. Henry > On May 1, 2020, at 10:47 AM, mike cole wrote: > > Henry > So what is the full statement of what you and Phillip have come to agree on? I am old and slow so its hard for me to integrate across > and along threads of the discussion. > > The integration/dialogue with figured world theory a la Holland fits naturally into the kind of chat theory I proposed in Cultural Psych. > Both Dottie and I were influenced by Roy D'Andrade and his students who were often her co-authors. This line of cognitive anth grew up at UCSD where script theories met parallel distributed processing systems. > > Figurative worlds theory and empirical work can be a super useful lens through which to see micro and macro, enriching the cultural side of chat's world view(s). > > It sure would be nice to invent some way to allow these years long conversations to accumulate enough to enable some knowledge accumulation beyond the text of the moment and the whims of the individual participants. A tool for collective reflection. > > Certainly there must be some sort of data mining program we could let loose on the archive (!) > > mike > > > On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 9:20 AM White, Phillip > wrote: > > 'Phillip ? Yes, but not ?rather than? ? I?d say ?and also.?' > > sure, i can accept that. > > 'And some figured worlds make headlines; others are almost invisible unless you?re looking for them.' > > absolutely - one reason i rely on history, anthropology, psychology, philosophy, critical race theory, queer theory, critical feminist theory and ethnography. and so i like to read discussions that i from a wider range of perspectives and diversity. > > 'Good history, Thanks ? H' > >> and history is being made today with the May Day strikes of workers employed by Amazon, Walmart, Target, and other multi-billion dollar corporations. the emphasis in on providing worker safety and a living wage over profits for CEO's and stockholders. > best - phillip > > > -- > Those who ignore history are bound to repeat it... and so are those who do not. Anon > > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit > lchc.ucsd.edu . For archival materials and a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200501/47135834/attachment.html From helenaworthen@gmail.com Fri May 1 11:10:44 2020 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 11:10:44 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: As of 2020, the American Century is Over In-Reply-To: <00195FA2-F3D5-41A8-9E42-E3AEEBD32A1D@cantab.net> References: <85fc2557-3931-47ff-12d4-267e9281a955@marxists.org> <7F106666-4E69-4606-AAB0-10EE9E7A733D@gmail.com> <255B3664-FD24-4025-9854-0B5D8EFA2962@gmail.com> <1c1c059f-f9a9-3606-ae1c-56d0626dd7e6@marxists.org> <4BF1F09B-8C62-4B6B-A573-27F80EDBF7D4@gmail.com> <6EA7437D-09DC-4B52-B00B-218E674D1B85@gmail.com> <8BB24F8E-61F8-4181-B071-CC8AB20CF0A9@cantab.net> <00195FA2-F3D5-41A8-9E42-E3AEEBD32A1D@cantab.net> Message-ID: <3A7B8D80-32A7-4512-BE03-B6C2B297C454@gmail.com> Theories of history? I just posted a story that illustrates one theory of history: history versus memory ? an experience of Mayday 2006 when I saw a police attack anarchist kids who had mounted the Haymarket Memorial statue in Chicago during an official Chicago Labor History event commemorating the Haymarket massacre! Happy May Day, see link below. Helena Worthen helenaworthen.wordpress.com > On Apr 30, 2020, at 6:18 PM, Martin Packer wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > So you?re asking me what my theory of history is? :) > > Let me start by explaining that I simply think that a society without personal relationship wouldn?t be viable. It would be like being in (individual) lockdown? (And consider how Trump, who I assume you were alluding to, has promoted his daughter and son-in-law. Not because of the value they provide him, because they provide no value. IMHO. No, he values them as individuals, in his own way.) > > To me it?s not a matter of being hopeful or not. I am simply trying to understand what is going on. That is not made easier by the media, which are in fully hysterical mode. For example, the staid BBC was yesterday announcing that more people have died of Covid in the US than died during the Vietnam war. That is true: an estimated 47,434 American soldiers were killed in battle during the Vietnam War. But one could add that over 150,000 Americans die each year from lung cancer. > > I just dug out my copy of Cohen?s ?Karl Marx?s Theory of History,? because I wanted to confirm that Marx considered capitalism to be more advanced than any previous kind of societal organization. And yes, Marx viewed capitalism as most able to develop human beings' productive powers, and to extend human freedom. > > And of course Marx saw capitalism as going through periodic crises, each worse than the last. One thing I?ve been wondering about are the consequences of the fact that governments around the world have *deliberately* brought on an economic depression. The fact that humans have this degree of control over our respective economies ? not *full* control, obviously: we wait to see whether they can be successfully brought *out* of their medically-induced coma ? is I think unprecedented. Could we be becoming conscious agents of history? > > saludos > > Martin > > > > >> On Apr 30, 2020, at 12:44 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: >> >> Martin, >> >> I'm delighted by your optimism and hopefulness about the U.S.! >> (particularly for someone who left the U.S.! "It's a lovely place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there"). >> and, of course, nostalgia has its problems (as you might imagine, my colleague's experiences in PNG were not all flowers and roses). >> >> But it is at least something to hold onto. >> >> Perhaps you could share where you place your hopes? or what is your long duree visions of things (either as they HAVE happened) or as they might happen? >> >> Based on what I'm seeing circulating among friends (both in person and on social media), I am becoming increasingly pessimistic about the hopes for America. As just one recent example, there is a video that was circulating in which two California doctors present a bunch of numbers to show that the coronavirus is not at all a serious threat. The only trouble is, their calculations are totally mistaken (and not only are they mistaken but they do two different calculations in two totally different ways). And yet the video has been posted and reposted as "truth" against the fictional numbers that the WHO is putting out (in cahoots with Bill Gates). Not only that, there has been news coverage of the video that does not point out the fundamental flaws. It's like someone says that 2+2=5 and then conclude that Trump is the right president and then claims that they should get equal coverage to those people who say 2+2=4. >> >> And then to add fuel to the fire, Facebook and Youtube have insisted on taking these videos down because they are propogating false information about the coronavirus. And guess what the coronavirus deniers are now saying that this is further evidence of the conspiracy of the WHO and Bill Gates! >> >> So this general trend, among many other things, is what makes me incredibly pessimistic about things and which makes nostalgia incredibly appealing (although my nostalgia is to Make America Decent Again). >> >> Anyway, my apologies for writing gobbly-gook, I'm not editing these at all. But I'd be delighted to hear your non-nostalgia forms of hope (and perhaps your hope is not at all a hope for American? Maybe quite the opposite? In which case what I've described above is precisely what's needed!). >> >> And regardless of hope, how do you see this present moment in cultural-historical terms? >> >> -greg >> >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 12:29 PM Martin Packer > wrote: >> My point was about the problematic nature of the hegemony of exchange-based relations (i.e. the capitalist relation in which "what value can I get from you" - you might call it "The Art of the Deal"!). At the very least, might you agree that it is a problem if we see ALL human relationships in these terms? >> >> I don?t think it could ever happen, Greg. So I?m not going to worry about it. >> >> I do seem to be disagreeing with everyone on xmca these days! Perhaps it?s my way of coping. Perhaps it?s because I think that if there was ever a time for thinking things through carefully it is now. >> >> Surely impersonal anonymous kinds of interactions must have begun as soon as anything large enough to be called a city came into existence. I?m not a big fan of Dunbar?s number, but surely there are limits to the number of people with whom one can have an personal relationship, and those limits were exceeded at least 6,000 years ago. >> >> And is xmca a place of personal relationships? I have met in person less than 5 people on this list, I think. That?s to say, we make constant, fruitful and enjoyable use of impersonal relationships, including here. I for one wouldn?t wish to return to a time when everyone lived in villages of less than 150 people. >> >> And what I remember from Marx is that the original sin of capitalism is alienation of people not from one another but from their own labor. (Though the former may be one of the consequences of the latter.) Of course exploitation didn?t start with capitalism either, though wage labor under capitalism is a frighteningly efficient kind of exploitation. But if I had been born in feudal times I might have been laboring for the lord of the manor, who probably didn?t know me by name. If born in Roman times I might have been a slave, working for the lady of the villa. >> >> I appreciate that we are all experiencing a certain nostalgia for the good old days, of perhaps 4 months ago. And that those of us in lockdown are craving genuine personal interaction. But I?m not convinced that there ever was a golden age, a time when development was not distorted and people were not exploited. It is true that Pleistocene hunter-gatherers seem to have had a face-to-face kind of community in which collaboration and sharing were central. But even they practiced infanticide and left their old behind when they moved to a new camp. I don?t think I would have lasted then as long as I have now. >> >> Martin >> >> >> >>> On Apr 29, 2020, at 11:41 AM, Helena Worthen > wrote: >>> >>> Greg, I think you are drawing attention to one of the consequences of the distortion of human development under capitalism. If that?s what you mean, then yes, the phenomenon of relationships that dead-end when a commodity exchange has taken place, rather than moving in a circle of reciprocal contribution, would be an example. >>> >>> A small relatively new private music school near us apparently has not been paying either its state unemployment insurance payroll taxes or making its equivalent contribution to a special fund set up for non-profits. Now, with the lockdown, it is having to deal with reimbursing the state for unemployment claims by its laid-off teachers. If you draw the circle of reciprocal contribution around this situation, look at what gets linked up. Students, their families, teachers, the management of the school, the enormous Employment Development Department at the state level, the legislature?the circle is gigantic, elements of it way beyond the horizon of what most people linked up in it imagine. >>> >>> In this case, the ?cut and run? took place at the point where the Board of the school decided somehow to assume they could risk taking on the obligation of paying unemployment benefits rather than pay the payroll tax. Easy to do ? it?s a small non-profit and this is something that gets easily overlooked by inexperienced managers. >>> >>> Nevertheless, the distortion that I?m thinking of ? the fear, anger and resentment that pile up when laid-off teachers apply for UI benefits? would be a consequence of capitalism. >>> >>> Helena Worthen >>> h elenaworthen@gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Apr 29, 2020, at 7:53 AM, Martin Packer > wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Greg, >>>> >>>> Are you suggesting that you would like to be able to build a personal relationship with each and every one of your students? And with all your colleagues at the university.? And all the staff at the local supermarket? And all the people who work to send you packages from Amazon? And ?. >>>> >>>> That?s to say, there are reasons why humans have added ?anonymous? interactions to the personal and interpersonal relationship that (as you acknowledge) we still build and maintain. >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Apr 28, 2020, at 10:13 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Helena, >>>>> >>>>> It sounds like you are describing the commodity fetish. The labor of the professor is no longer seen as their own production. Instead it is seen that the professor simply draws from some "body of knowledge" or a credential that has a particular (monetary) value. As with any good (i.e., bad) commodity relation, even the exchange relations between buyer and seller (professor and student) are hidden and the professor is merely a conduit to that valuable knowledge or credential. What the professor has to offer is MONETIZED, perhaps we might say that the professor themself is monetized, even BRANDED (take a look at the web pages of young faculty and you'll see how important "brand yourself" has become in the academy). The professor and her work are understood in terms of market value, return on investment, earning potential of students. >>>>> >>>>> Students today understand their task as being a good consumer; to get at least equal value from professors as they pay in tuition. (granted much of this is via a credential, but the professors are a big part of what stands behind the university's credential). You'll hear students frequently complain (rightly so) about how much they are paying for their education followed by some specific complaint about a professor. >>>>> >>>>> This is all part of a larger system in which this is understood as how the world works. You get what you pay for. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. And so on. Can we blame students for wanting to know what they are going to "get" for the money that they pay for college, and note that this gets even more intense during hard economic times, of which we are deep into right this moment (although the fear usually takes a semester or two before people start fleeing the humanities and the social sciences to business, engineering, computer science, or pre-anything). >>>>> >>>>> (and Lave and Mcdermott's article on Estranged Labor Learning might be worth revisiting in this regard?) >>>>> >>>>> In addition to Marx's commodity fetish, a related and interesting way to think of this is in terms of Marcel Mauss' notion of gift vs. exchange economy (if you'll allow me to oversimplify a bit). The main difference is that an exchange economy involves transactions that are always calculated to be of exactly equal value. The $13 pair of shoes I buy at the store are worth EXACTLY $13. Each party to the transaction gets their "money's worth". Sounds great right? Fair, to be sure. Except it means that there is no relationship established between the parties. After the exchange, the parties no longer have any meaningful relationship. In contrast, a gifting relationship is not responded in kind (at least not initially). As Mary Douglas says in her intro to Mauss' book The Gift, "there are no free gifts". Note that this is a very different statement from Milton Friedman's "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch". Douglas means that the gift creates a sense of obligation and thus a relationship. As much as we might understand this in intimate spaces, as Americans in public spaces all we know are exchange relationships (people reject healthcare for all b.c. "why should I have to pay for healthcare for someone else", ditto for education (yes, there is a movement in the US to get rid of public education!)). This is the logic behind the out-of-hand rejection of socialism - it does not make sense in the logic of exchange. And, of course, taxes are justified only in as much as you "get" something for it (roads, police, fire department, public transport, etc.) and increasingly tax dollars are getting hyper-localized so that you get precisely what you pay for and don't pay a dime more (e.g., gated communities with private police force, fire dept, etc). >>>>> >>>>> Interestingly I just today was privilege to hear a colleague present about his work in Papua New Guinea (the island of Missima, in the Massim region - the site of the Kula ring made famous to Westerners by Malinowski - and yes, the Kula ring still operates today). He noted that Missimans can't understand why Americans (and other Westerners) are so interested in engaging in exchanges that cut ties (e.g., buying things from them and then running off). And when Missimans do try to engage in gifting relationships with Americans, they are struck by how quickly the Americans run off, never to return (what idiots those Americans are!). It is absolutely baffling to them since they spend their days building relationships with others. Why would someone not want relationships with others? >>>>> >>>>> Can we perhaps understand their bafflement? >>>>> >>>>> And what, then, is human development within a world where relations of exchange are everything? (and thankfully, it isn't total, we Americans still view kin relations as something more than an exchange relation). >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, that's at least two times two cents too much. And terribly inchoate. Far too "off the cuff". Apologies. >>>>> >>>>> -greg >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:19 AM Helena Worthen > wrote: >>>>> thanks! >>>>> >>>>> Helena Worthen >>>>> helenaworthen.wordpress.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 27, 2020, at 7:48 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> How about this Helena?: >>>>>> "Time is the room of human development. A man who has no free time to dispose of, whose whole lifetime, apart from the mere physical interruptions by sleep, meals, and so forth, is absorbed by his labour for the capitalist, is less than a beast of burden. He is a mere machine for producing Foreign Wealth, broken in body and brutalized in mind. Yet the whole history of modern industry shows that capital, if not checked, will recklessly and ruthlessly work to cast down the whole working class to this utmost state of degradation." >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/value-price-profit/ch03.htm__;!!Mih3wA!UDGcldC9izK19FhYPF9pilOYmr7-TmvP-lk90Y8xKsn-QG-G2RTc2ejfugXRWgtlqJpoTQ$ >>>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>> Home Page >>>>>> On 28/04/2020 5:23 am, Helena Worthen wrote: >>>>>>> Andy?s paper has basically 4 parts. One a flyby overview of the history of the US ? this is where the majority of criticisms by people I know are showing up because people have different versions of that history. Then the argument that with the US going down as one of the poles of global leadership. My friends and family agree with this and are all, as Americans, offering examples of how they have experienced this. Andy notes that there is an empty spot at the top that hasn?t been taken yet. Then comes his COVID-19 point, that this is a global moment in which the whole world is participating. Most of the xmca discussion has been about that so far, if I?m not mistaken. And finally a challenge to foresee what we will learn from this experience. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OK, now trying to forsee what we can learn is what I?m doing. So here is my question, appropriate for this list since we are all interested in education. I found myself writing the following, as part of describing the way a workforce can be intentionally divided into feuding packs of enemies so that we can?t take action in solidarity. We?re referring to ?the distortions of human development under capitalism? and say that ?we see this in its sharpest form in the for-profit part of the higher education industry. We have to look past the distortion to find the original, human connection?.? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One of our readers asks where this concept came from. I don?t remember!! It makes sense, though, doesn?t? Anyone have any idea where it came from? So far I?m saying, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The concept of ?distortions of human development under capitalism? depends on looking at human development as occurring within a social, historical and cultural framework ? not just the development of individuals on their own or within a family or even a school, but within a society. Specifically we mean psychological and cognitive disabilities ranging from lack of empathy, envy, despair, alienation and bullying to obesity, eating disorders and stress-related auto-immune illness. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks ? H >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Helena Worthen >>>>>>> h elenaworthen@gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Helena Worthen > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have been circulating Andy?s paper among close friends and family to generate discussion. What is mostly coming back is confirmation of the general arc, with examples from personal experience, but some disagreement about cause. These are ?inside? views ? meaning, people who are US citizens talking about us, so these are experiences of the passing of an era and what they look like from inside. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> About a year ago I realized that, for better or worse, I identify as ?an American.? And I don?t mean North American. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Chris Appy?s book, American Reckoning, is a pretty good history that takes us from the 1940s up to Obama and tracks the hole we fell into with the Vietnam War. For people of my generation (BA 1965 ? and I mention that date rather than when I was born because 1965 connects to the draft, the lottery, the anti-war demonstrations, the asssinations, etc etc) the story told with the Vietnam War in the foreground connects very tightly to lived experience. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Helena Worthen >>>>>>>> helenaworthen.wordpress.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2020, at 4:30 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/American-Century.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!UDGcldC9izK19FhYPF9pilOYmr7-TmvP-lk90Y8xKsn-QG-G2RTc2ejfugXRWguusL5BZA$ [ethicalpolitics.org] >>>>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements [brill.com] >>>>>>>>> Home Page [ethicalpolitics.org] >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!UDGcldC9izK19FhYPF9pilOYmr7-TmvP-lk90Y8xKsn-QG-G2RTc2ejfugXRWgv59X0Ekg$ >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!UDGcldC9izK19FhYPF9pilOYmr7-TmvP-lk90Y8xKsn-QG-G2RTc2ejfugXRWgsCee3ugA$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200501/9d8d6046/attachment.html From feine@duq.edu Fri May 1 11:28:21 2020 From: feine@duq.edu (Dr. Elizabeth Fein) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 18:28:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] CFP: "The 'pluriverse in practice': What can ethnographic cases teach us about alternatives to development?" Message-ID: This CFP seemed relevant to some conversations we've been having here, so I thought I'd send it along. Best, Elizabeth *** Dear friends, dear colleagues, Greetings during these surreal times. We welcome you to submit a paper to the interdisciplinary special issue "The 'pluriverse in practice': What can ethnographic cases teach us about alternatives to development?" The call for contributions, including a description of the topic and practical information, is available below and in the attached document. A timeline: * Short abstracts (300 words) due May 31st, 2020 * Long abstracts (1000 words) due July 15th, 2020 * Full articles due by the end of 2020 * Publication by the end of 2021 Please circulate widely! wishing you well, Shivani Shivani Kaul (Royal University of Bhutan/University of Amsterdam), with Bengi Akbulut (Concordia University, Montreal), Federico Demaria (Universitat Aut?noma de Barcelona) and Julien-Fran?ois Gerber (Institute of Social Studies, The Hague) The 'pluriverse in practice': What can ethnographic cases teach us about alternatives to development? Editors: Bengi Akbulut (Concordia University), Federico Demaria (ICTA-UAB), Julien-Fran?ois Gerber (ISS) and Shivani Kaul (RUB-RTC, UvA) DESCRIPTION "Difference must be not merely tolerated, but seen as a fund of necessary polarities between which our creativity can spark like a dialectic. Only then does the necessity for interdependency become unthreatening. Only within that interdependency of different strengths, acknowledged and equal, can the power to seek new ways of being in the world generate, as well as the courage and sustenance to act where there are no charters." (Audre Lorde, 1984, p. 90-91) A range of interrelated crises face the planet today, rooted in historical and entangled processes of exploitation based on race, class, gender, and species. But can upheavals in the 'Anthropocene', like the COVID-19 pandemic, provide an opportunity to slow down and make time to consider existing alternatives to development? What are the generative - not only destructive - practices to be observed in ethnographic cases in and around us? In this special issue, we seek to bridge academic communities across contexts, career stages, and disciplines to learn from the 'pluriverse in practice'. Heterodox ecological economists over the last decade have increasingly mobilized the term 'degrowth' as an alternative to capitalist development, seeking to decolonize dominant imaginaries centered on GDP, growthism and acceleration (Demaria et al., 2013; Latouche, 2009). But 'degrowth' is not alone. It is one among many alternatives to hegemonic development discourses (Kothari et al., 2019). These alternative worldviews and practices compose the 'pluriverse' - "a world where many worlds fit" - in the words of the Zapatistas. Along with this emerging global tapestry of new or resurrected concepts and practices studied primarily as narrative and discourse (Escobar, 2018), many questions remain open. What is a transformative alternative in practice? Alternative to what? What do these cases have in common, and how are they (unc)common? How are they distinct from techno-managerial proposals for sustainability? Political ecologists in turn report on the radical potentials but also pitfalls of activist projects that push through the contradictions of capitalist relations and metabolisms (e.g. ejatlas.org). They warn against the 'agrarian myth' (Gerber, 2020) and cultural essentialisms in a one-world built on the tendency not to homogenize but exaggerate differences into caricatures of racial capitalism (Robinson, 1983, Dengler & Seebacher, 2019). How do people with different power relations and intersectional interests work together to design alternatives to capitalist development? How can radical projects avoid reproducing patriarchal and colonial continuities? Anthropologists potentially regenerate both of these efforts through their emphasis on participant observation and praxis. They can present stories from non-capitalist societies, from countries and cities that have adapted to stalled growth, and from emerging intentional communities (Kallis et al., 2018). The broader aim is to unsettle myths and values of 'self-devouring growth', encourage dialogue between pathways of change, and nourish science-activist links across the north and south (Livingston, 2019; Paulson, 2017; 2018). Building on existing 'arts of living together' (Tsing et al., 2017) and redistributive policies could move the damaged planet closer to sustaining a good life for all within planetary boundaries (Hickel, 2019). Anthropologists themselves increasingly use their creative capacities to not only negate what emerges beyond the power of their discipline and its colonial knowledge forms, but to work with/in difference to disrupt nature-culture divides. Recent dialogue between indigenous collectives and feminist science studies propose the pluriverse as analytic, as "heterogeneous worldings coming together as a political ecology of practices, negotiating their difficult being together in heterogeneity" (Blaser & de la Cadena, 2018, p. 13). Echoing Audre Lorde: difference need not remain threatening - it is the generative spark of creativity and result of radical interdependence (1984). Towards this end, the ethnographic case can be a particularly rich mode of analysis to illustrate exceptions, and also potentially situate the macro in the micro (Yates-Doerr & Labuski, 2015). To at once unsettle the coloniality of 'Man' (Wynter 2003), and to 'make kin' in regenerative ways (Haraway 2016). What might we learn about alternatives to development from ethnographic cases of the 'pluriverse in practice'? POTENTIAL TOPICS For this special session, we particularly invite papers presenting ethnographic case studies, especially if using experimental ethnographic methods. We intend to move beyond critique and resistance movements, and understand how alternative practices might flourish in practice - frictions and all. We particularly encourage contributions on these issues that are part of the post-development research agenda. Possible topics include: * Contemporary regional experiences such as Rojava, Chiapas, Cuba, Kerala, Bhutan, indigenous societies, and any other relevant larger-scale initiatives; * Historical regional experiences and exilic spaces (Gruba?i? & O'Hearn, 2016) like Maroon territories, Zomia (Scott, 2009) or Makhnovia; * Municipal alternatives (e.g. Marinaleda, Mendha Lekha, Longo Ma? or Auroville), anarchist experiments (Graeber, 2004), and ethnographic cases of community/solidarity economies and intentional communities; * Various conceptions of the 'good life' as a basis for building concrete alternatives (e.g. Buen vivir, mino-mnaamodzawin, bamtaare or tri hita karana); * Ethnographic cases of post-growth and well-being policy initiatives (e.g. New Zealand, Wales or Scotland); * Contradictions within and among alternatives: e.g. pluriversality and universality. For instance, how can we deal with those worlds that do not want to relate - ethno-nationalist and imperializing worlds - without going against the principles of the pluriverse? Is it possible to do so without resorting to new universalisms? * Convergences and alliances of alternatives: What potential for tensions and complementarities is there? At local, national, regional or global scales (e.g. Pam a Pam, Crianza mutua, Vikalp Sangam and Global Tapestry of Alternatives). * Ethnographic cases engaging with the challenges of ontological politics in practice (Stengers, 2018) * ... PRACTICAL INFORMATION Authors interested to join the special issue are welcome to submit a proposal in the form of an abstract (maximum 300 words), with title, authors and affiliations, via e-mail to Shivani Kaul (s.kaul@uva.nl) by May 31st, 2020. Shortlisted authors would submit an extended abstract of 1000 words by July 15th, 2020. We are working on a special issue to be prospectively published in a journal such as Development and Change or World Development. Tentatively, articles will be submitted at the end of 2020, with publication at the end of 2021. REFERENCES Blaser, M., & de la Cadena, M. (2018). Pluriverse: Proposals for a world of many worlds. In: M. de la Cadena and M. Blaser (Eds), A World of Many Worlds, pp. 1-22. Durham: Duke University Press. Demaria, F., F. Schneider, F. Sekulova and J. Martinez-Alier (2013) What is degrowth? From an activist slogan to a social movement. Environmental Values, 22(2): 191-215. Dengler, C. and L.M. Seebacher (2019) What about the Global South? Towards a feminist decolonial degrowth approach. Ecological Economics, 157: 246-252. Escobar, A. (2018) Design for the Pluriverse: Radical Interdependence, Autonomy, and the Making of Worlds. Durham: Duke University Press. Gerber, J.-F. (2020) Degrowth and critical agrarian studies. Journal of Peasant Studies, 47(2): 235-264. Gerber, J.-F. and R. S. Raina (Eds) (2018) Post-Growth Thinking in India. New Delhi: Orient BlackSwan. Gibson-Graham, J. K. (2006) A Postcapitalist Politics. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press. Graeber, D. (2004) Fragments of an Anarchist Anthropology. Chicago: Prickly Paradigm Press. Gruba?i?, A. and D. O'Hearn (2016) Living at the Edges of Capitalism: Adventures in Exile and Mutual Aid. Oakland: University of California Press. Haraway, D. (2016) Staying with the Trouble: Making Kin in the Chthulucene. Durham and London: Duke University Press. Hickel, J. (2019) Is it possible to achieve a good life for all within planetary boundaries? Third World Quarterly, 40(1): 18-35. Kallis, G., V. Kostakis, S. Lange, B. Muraca, S. Paulson and M. Schmelzer (2018) Research on degrowth. Annual Review of Environment and Resources, 43(1): 291-316. Kothari, A., A. Salleh, A. Escobar, F. Demaria and A. Acosta (Eds) (2019) Pluriverse: A Post-Development Dictionary. New Delhi: Tulika Books. Latouche, S. (2009) Farewell to growth. Cambridge: Polity Press. Lorde, A. (1984) Sister Outsider. Berkeley: Crossing Press. Livingston, J. (2019) Self-Devouring Growth A Planetary Parable as Told from Southern Africa. Durham: Duke University Press. Paulson, S. (2017) Degrowth: Culture, power and change. Introduction to a Special Issue. Journal of Political Ecology, 24(1): 425-448. Paulson, S. (2019) Pluriversal learning: pathways toward a world of many worlds. Nordia Geographical Publications, 47(5): 85-109. Robinson, C. J. (1983). Black Marxism: The making of the Black radical tradition. London: Zed Press. Scott, J. C. (2009) The Art of Not Being Governed: An Anarchist History of Upland Southeast Asia. New Haven: Yale University Press. Stengers, I. (2018) The challenge of ontological politics. In: M. de la Cadena and M. Blaser (Eds), A World of Many Worlds, pp. 83-111. Durham: Duke University Press. Tsing, A. L., N. Bubandt, H. A. Swanson and E. Gan (2017) Arts of Living on a Damaged Planet: Ghosts and Monsters of the Anthropocene. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press. Wynter, S. (2003) Unsettling the coloniality of being/power/truth/freedom: Towards the human, after man, its overrepresentation-An argument. CR: The new centennial review, 3(3), 257-337. Yates-Doerr, E., and C. Labuski (2017) The Ethnographic Case. Manchester: Mattering Press. ------------------------------ Shivani Kaul Lecturer | Anthropology | Royal Thimphu College | Royal University of Bhutan | skaul@rtc.bt PhD Candidate | Global Future Health Project | Anthropology of Health, Care and the Body | University of Amsterdam | s.kaul@uva.nl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200501/32aeebaf/attachment.html From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Sat May 2 15:55:11 2020 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 22:55:11 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: As of 2020, the American Century is Over In-Reply-To: <3A7B8D80-32A7-4512-BE03-B6C2B297C454@gmail.com> References: <85fc2557-3931-47ff-12d4-267e9281a955@marxists.org> <7F106666-4E69-4606-AAB0-10EE9E7A733D@gmail.com> <255B3664-FD24-4025-9854-0B5D8EFA2962@gmail.com> <1c1c059f-f9a9-3606-ae1c-56d0626dd7e6@marxists.org> <4BF1F09B-8C62-4B6B-A573-27F80EDBF7D4@gmail.com> <6EA7437D-09DC-4B52-B00B-218E674D1B85@gmail.com> <8BB24F8E-61F8-4181-B071-CC8AB20CF0A9@cantab.net> <00195FA2-F3D5-41A8-9E42-E3AEEBD32A1D@cantab.net>, <3A7B8D80-32A7-4512-BE03-B6C2B297C454@gmail.com> Message-ID: Helena - like you i love memories - and your memory of your day in front of the Haymarket memorial in Chicago was highly evocative. though i confess to taking the East Indian's comment with a marked grain of salt. the memories that Modi is presently celebrating could be considered by moslems as deeply problematic. after all, not only are memories highly unreliable, but when they're sanctioned by the state, then in my opinion there is even greater reason for a sense of dubiousness regarding what's being memorialised. here in Colorado, the 1914 Ludlow massacre has a memorial. it's little visited placed in an obscure place and now that unions have so little power here in colorado, the deaths can formally recognised, in fact it is thought that for the entire coal strike at the time the union suffered the greatest number of deaths of any union strike in the nation. in 1925 South High School here in Denver was built, as took as its mascot, Johnny Reb, the school flag was the confederate flag, and the school song was Dixie. and of course, that period of american history saw confederate memorials erected across the nation, in memory of "the lost cause". Wertsch wrote very movingly about Estonian children attending public school's in Estonia after the invasion and occupation of Estonia by the Russian Soviets, and contrasting the history of Estonia propagated by the Russian-centric curriculum to individual family memories of Estonia in the 1920's and 30's. one advantage the Estonia students had was to be found in their attics, for example, of pre-Soviet texts, magazines, novels, newspapers, etc., family photo albums, that clearly contradicted the sanctioned state memory. yet, even so, family memories too are unreliable. a great example of that is Daniel Mendelsohn's "The Lost". as a serious academic, Mendelsohn researches his own family history, illuminating thickets of secrets and information obscured by time. so memories are a start for unearthing what political states have buried. yes. as the police office said, "I'm just a nobody". so did Albert Speer. and ironically, so did Emily Dickinson say the same thing. context is everything. and i bet that what brought the Chicago Police to the Haymarket memorial wasn't because of what the memorial represented, but rather what the Anarchists represented. although, perhaps there is another history here that the chicago police were remembering. after the labor demonstration at Haymarket square, and the bombing and the trial, a memorial was erected at the site, and tall pillar with a chicago police officer atop it. in time it was moved as a traffic hazard to Union Park. in 1970 that monument was bombed and the police officer toppled. however, it was replaced with a new monument, again surmounted by a chicago police officer. at present the statue, no longer on a pedestal, stands in front of the chicago police academy. so, in retrospect, yeah, now i think you're probably right that there was a direct connection to the Haymarket memorial - and again, i think that this is evidence of not just different but competing for dominance particular figured worlds. so possibly your theory of history could embody figured worlds as well. phillip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200502/fbc693b3/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon May 4 15:25:12 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 07:25:12 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Halfway Measures and Transitional Ones Message-ID: Two rather sobering sets of stats to ponder. a) The "reopening" of the various states in the USA will probably mean that by the end of the month the current 25,000 new cases and 750 deaths a day will increase to around 200,000 new cases and 3,000 deaths daily--by the end of this very month. b) The "lockdown" has actually only shifted energy consumption from factories to "working at home". All of the mesures only resulted in a 5.5% reduction of greenhouse gases, and it doesn't appear to be either sustainable or adequate (see point a] above). It has been estimated that a sustainable reduction of about 7.5% every single year would be necessary to keep us under the catastrophic tipping point of 1 and a half degrees centigrade above pre-industrial levels. So what is the difference between halfway measure and genuinely transitional ones? One obvious difference is that the former are designed to avert a crisis, but the latter are designed to resolve it. The former are likely to use terms like "mitigation" and "containment" while the latter are going to prefer outcomes like "new normal". As Mike has pointed out, the rhetoric of "wartime president" is not a halfway measure: it is genuinely transitional one aimed at a new normal of autocratic rule. The same thing is true of attempts to associate the virus with a foreign invasion or a conspiracy at the Institute of Virology in Wuhan. But this rhetoric does not even pretend to extend beyond US borders or address climate change; even within US borders, it does not even purport to propose a positive solution: it is merely a new normalization of 200,000 new cases and 3,000 deaths a day. What would world-relevant and positive transitional measures look like? First of all, they would have to lead to either the kind of social-distancing between humans and nature that we see in Saudi Arabia (this is the "eco-modernist" approach) or else the kind of rolling economic catastrophe we see in Iran (this is the "anti-modernist" approach). Or perhaps both directions at one and the same time? (One of the many perplexing things about Vygotsky's pedology texts is that both kinds of transitional measures seem to be underway in the early USSR at the same time, with Stalin as the erratic "wartime president"!). Secondly, positive transitional measures would have to involve reworking language. We seem to be on the threshold of some major transition, absolutely comparable to the industrial revolution (which Halliday called the transition from farm to factory) or even the agricultural revolution (the transitioni from forest to farm). Both of these major transitions were not only reflected in but realized by shifts in language (e.g. the mass/count distinction when we speak of resources; the human monopoly on sentient verbs, the general passivity of the natural environment, and of course the unmarked "good" quality of growth). In Halliday's talk on language evolving, he speculated that after the forest, the farm, and the factory, language might be said to be entering a fourth phase--fantasy. He had in mind "virtual reality". That, I think, was also a fantasy. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!ScwIlOXP7yTa2IEuFz-LEoCTw0pQsnJDDMawIzLNv5_CGQWTFvfo9Mzx-vxrYp8cbb8nCg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!ScwIlOXP7yTa2IEuFz-LEoCTw0pQsnJDDMawIzLNv5_CGQWTFvfo9Mzx-vxrYp_-WVMzgQ$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200505/73590e62/attachment.html From hans.knutagard@ingressus.se Tue May 5 06:24:48 2020 From: hans.knutagard@ingressus.se (=?utf-8?Q?Hans_Knutag=C3=A5rd?=) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 15:24:48 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] The notion activity Message-ID: <18727564-5A26-4191-BA37-3E89FEEB6062@ingressus.se> Hi, I am struggling with the notion activity and how to explain that in a Swedish context. I find myself using a notion between work and activity but that is the word I would like to explain for the Swedish audience. In Sweden we use verksamhet but that word could also aim at organization. I found that the russian word is dejatelnost or ???????????? but where could I find a good explanation for that? Even though it is not in Swedish. Thank you for all input Yours Hans Knutag?rd, Senior lecturer School of Social work Faculty of Social Sciences Lund University Sweden From andyb@marxists.org Tue May 5 07:39:09 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 00:39:09 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The notion activity In-Reply-To: <18727564-5A26-4191-BA37-3E89FEEB6062@ingressus.se> References: <18727564-5A26-4191-BA37-3E89FEEB6062@ingressus.se> Message-ID: <06d9a2b1-3af4-f5b0-a137-c6ef9a399ead@marxists.org> It is a difficult word to translate when meant in a philosophical context. There are several issues. The English word "activity" is very ambiguous, but so are the German words that it translates to. I'll leave Russian aside because I am not familiar with Russian. The sense in which "Activity" is used in CHAT is two-fold. It means both the general *substance *of human life (*everything *is activity) and in this sense it is used in the singular only and without an article. The philosophical usage is like the common usage when you say "There was a lot of activity in the City today." The other meaning is used in either singular and plural and may have articles (the, an, some, ...) and refers to specific aggregates of actions which share a common aim. Like "Every action I take while driving my car is part of the *activity* of driving my car, i.e. all directed towards the object of safely driving my car." Every activity has an object (the reason for driving, perhaps to get my drivers' licence) which differs from the aim of each individual action making up the activity. An activity may be composed of actions done by *different *people. Like the postal service is an activity, but requires the coordinated action of many different people who don't even know each other. As it happens, Marx and Hegel use the opposite German words for the first and second of these meanings. So one can't be too picky about choice of word so long as your meaning is clear and consistent. Another issue is that there is a tendency in Marxism which restricts the meaning of "Activity" to "labour." But I believe that this is a rhetorical gesture which is irrelevant for Psychology. For the purposes of Psychology all activity is a labour process and vice versa. Then people argue about the difference in meaning between work and labour, to do with whether the labour is alienated,etc., but I think this distinction is unhelpful. An activity is a "social practice." What word do you use in Swedish for a "practice"? The Svesnka version of Theses on Feuerbach: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/svenska/marx/1845/03-d006.htm__;!!Mih3wA!Uj1AmD5Wx5LyFPLTJCCgWbzfzTLwzMI7nxUBSlmKQFnmwDeTzjkRNYxXDpBB97EzCZfFNg$ seems to use "verksamhet" for activity, but the meaning is essentially the same as "praxis." But take care of the distinction between "an activity" which has "an object" and "activity" which is a whole mass of activities, the unit of which is one activity. Hope that all helps. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 5/05/2020 11:24 pm, Hans Knutag?rd wrote: > Hi, > > I am struggling with the notion activity and how to explain that in a Swedish context. I find myself using a notion between work and activity but that is the word I would like to explain for the Swedish audience. In Sweden we use verksamhet but that word could also aim at organization. I found that the russian word is dejatelnost or ???????????? but where could I find a good explanation for that? Even though it is not in Swedish. > > Thank you for all input > > Yours > > Hans Knutag?rd, Senior lecturer > School of Social work > Faculty of Social Sciences > Lund University > Sweden > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200506/117fc42a/attachment.html From goncu@uic.edu Tue May 5 07:42:35 2020 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 14:42:35 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The notion activity In-Reply-To: <18727564-5A26-4191-BA37-3E89FEEB6062@ingressus.se> References: <18727564-5A26-4191-BA37-3E89FEEB6062@ingressus.se> Message-ID: Hello Hans, In the history of xmca you will find extensive discussions of activity starting with Vygotsky and Leont'ev. My take on it is in a book "Children's engagement in the world" that I edited and in some other sources. All the best, ag Artin Goncu, Ph.D Professor, Emeritus University of Illinois at Chicago https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.artingoncu.com/__;!!Mih3wA!TPAJjo7r1MJTYrfa7Mkxu6Iv2LPvgseyuqYeJwwuYHpEXyoM-DXSPAr29WJ-3P5ih_QLDg$ -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Hans Knutag?rd Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 8:25 AM To: xmca mailing list Subject: [Xmca-l] The notion activity Hi, I am struggling with the notion activity and how to explain that in a Swedish context. I find myself using a notion between work and activity but that is the word I would like to explain for the Swedish audience. In Sweden we use verksamhet but that word could also aim at organization. I found that the russian word is dejatelnost or ???????????? but where could I find a good explanation for that? Even though it is not in Swedish. Thank you for all input Yours Hans Knutag?rd, Senior lecturer School of Social work Faculty of Social Sciences Lund University Sweden From helenaworthen@gmail.com Tue May 5 09:13:14 2020 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 09:13:14 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: As of 2020, the American Century is Over In-Reply-To: References: <85fc2557-3931-47ff-12d4-267e9281a955@marxists.org> <7F106666-4E69-4606-AAB0-10EE9E7A733D@gmail.com> <255B3664-FD24-4025-9854-0B5D8EFA2962@gmail.com> <1c1c059f-f9a9-3606-ae1c-56d0626dd7e6@marxists.org> <4BF1F09B-8C62-4B6B-A573-27F80EDBF7D4@gmail.com> <6EA7437D-09DC-4B52-B00B-218E674D1B85@gmail.com> <8BB24F8E-61F8-4181-B071-CC8AB20CF0A9@cantab.net> <00195FA2-F3D5-41A8-9E42-E3AEEBD32A1D@cantab.net> <3A7B8D80-32A7-4512-BE03-B6C2B297C454@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44F64C4C-48BC-477C-AA43-FFC631756CDE@gmail.com> Phillip ? I was wondering why the concept of ?figured worlds? seemed so natural that it didn?t require explanation, was just available for use off-the-shelf; sure enough here is a paper by Julian that was published in MCA: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/files/46325883/45401061.MCA_AAM_SC.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!W4_9ek9cdl1IEv-d9Mkztg0yPffrhb4Ib5DfXOBF_nybN3Tup22iyVW1qjCJrucR7tLtuA$ Helena Worthen helenaworthen.wordpress.com Helena Worthen helenaworthen.wordpress.com > On May 2, 2020, at 3:55 PM, White, Phillip wrote: > > Helena - like you i love memories - and your memory of your day in front of the Haymarket memorial in Chicago was highly evocative. though i confess to taking the East Indian's comment with a marked grain of salt. the memories that Modi is presently celebrating could be considered by moslems as deeply problematic. after all, not only are memories highly unreliable, but when they're sanctioned by the state, then in my opinion there is even greater reason for a sense of dubiousness regarding what's being memorialised. > > here in Colorado, the 1914 Ludlow massacre has a memorial. it's little visited placed in an obscure place and now that unions have so little power here in colorado, the deaths can formally recognised, in fact it is thought that for the entire coal strike at the time the union suffered the greatest number of deaths of any union strike in the nation. > > in 1925 South High School here in Denver was built, as took as its mascot, Johnny Reb, the school flag was the confederate flag, and the school song was Dixie. and of course, that period of american history saw confederate memorials erected across the nation, in memory of "the lost cause". > > Wertsch wrote very movingly about Estonian children attending public school's in Estonia after the invasion and occupation of Estonia by the Russian Soviets, and contrasting the history of Estonia propagated by the Russian-centric curriculum to individual family memories of Estonia in the 1920's and 30's. one advantage the Estonia students had was to be found in their attics, for example, of pre-Soviet texts, magazines, novels, newspapers, etc., family photo albums, that clearly contradicted the sanctioned state memory. > > yet, even so, family memories too are unreliable. a great example of that is Daniel Mendelsohn's "The Lost". as a serious academic, Mendelsohn researches his own family history, illuminating thickets of secrets and information obscured by time. > > so memories are a start for unearthing what political states have buried. yes. as the police office said, "I'm just a nobody". so did Albert Speer. and ironically, so did Emily Dickinson say the same thing. context is everything. > > and i bet that what brought the Chicago Police to the Haymarket memorial wasn't because of what the memorial represented, but rather what the Anarchists represented. although, perhaps there is another history here that the chicago police were remembering. after the labor demonstration at Haymarket square, and the bombing and the trial, a memorial was erected at the site, and tall pillar with a chicago police officer atop it. in time it was moved as a traffic hazard to Union Park. in 1970 that monument was bombed and the police officer toppled. however, it was replaced with a new monument, again surmounted by a chicago police officer. at present the statue, no longer on a pedestal, stands in front of the chicago police academy. > > so, in retrospect, yeah, now i think you're probably right that there was a direct connection to the Haymarket memorial - and again, i think that this is evidence of not just different but competing for dominance particular figured worlds. so possibly your theory of history could embody figured worlds as well. > > phillip > > > >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200505/aecf3cb7/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue May 5 12:57:05 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 13:57:05 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: As of 2020, the American Century is Over In-Reply-To: <44F64C4C-48BC-477C-AA43-FFC631756CDE@gmail.com> References: <85fc2557-3931-47ff-12d4-267e9281a955@marxists.org> <7F106666-4E69-4606-AAB0-10EE9E7A733D@gmail.com> <255B3664-FD24-4025-9854-0B5D8EFA2962@gmail.com> <1c1c059f-f9a9-3606-ae1c-56d0626dd7e6@marxists.org> <4BF1F09B-8C62-4B6B-A573-27F80EDBF7D4@gmail.com> <6EA7437D-09DC-4B52-B00B-218E674D1B85@gmail.com> <8BB24F8E-61F8-4181-B071-CC8AB20CF0A9@cantab.net> <00195FA2-F3D5-41A8-9E42-E3AEEBD32A1D@cantab.net> <3A7B8D80-32A7-4512-BE03-B6C2B297C454@gmail.com> <44F64C4C-48BC-477C-AA43-FFC631756CDE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Helena, Thank you so much for the link to the paper Julian co-authored on figured worlds and the relation to CHAT. It resonates with so much: figure/ground, local/global, action/activity. Andy?s explication of terminology in the semantic cloud around ?activity? for Hans is in a different thread, but you?d never know it. And a shout out to Mike who wondered about my take on figured worlds. I had no clue before. Mike?s wondering got me wondering and you, Helen, gave me a clue. Rich. Henry > On May 5, 2020, at 10:13 AM, Helena Worthen wrote: > > Phillip ? > > I was wondering why the concept of ?figured worlds? seemed so natural that it didn?t require explanation, was just available for use off-the-shelf; sure enough here is a paper by Julian that was published in MCA: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/files/46325883/45401061.MCA_AAM_SC.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!WA6vx-qdNYxTO2PEqi151HTcsodpk4yjPL-e4EPqjYSPmhIMgpo8Ke62TGHrqFhUZ9eVdg$ > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen.wordpress.com > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen.wordpress.com > > > > >> On May 2, 2020, at 3:55 PM, White, Phillip > wrote: >> >> Helena - like you i love memories - and your memory of your day in front of the Haymarket memorial in Chicago was highly evocative. though i confess to taking the East Indian's comment with a marked grain of salt. the memories that Modi is presently celebrating could be considered by moslems as deeply problematic. after all, not only are memories highly unreliable, but when they're sanctioned by the state, then in my opinion there is even greater reason for a sense of dubiousness regarding what's being memorialised. >> >> here in Colorado, the 1914 Ludlow massacre has a memorial. it's little visited placed in an obscure place and now that unions have so little power here in colorado, the deaths can formally recognised, in fact it is thought that for the entire coal strike at the time the union suffered the greatest number of deaths of any union strike in the nation. >> >> in 1925 South High School here in Denver was built, as took as its mascot, Johnny Reb, the school flag was the confederate flag, and the school song was Dixie. and of course, that period of american history saw confederate memorials erected across the nation, in memory of "the lost cause". >> >> Wertsch wrote very movingly about Estonian children attending public school's in Estonia after the invasion and occupation of Estonia by the Russian Soviets, and contrasting the history of Estonia propagated by the Russian-centric curriculum to individual family memories of Estonia in the 1920's and 30's. one advantage the Estonia students had was to be found in their attics, for example, of pre-Soviet texts, magazines, novels, newspapers, etc., family photo albums, that clearly contradicted the sanctioned state memory. >> >> yet, even so, family memories too are unreliable. a great example of that is Daniel Mendelsohn's "The Lost". as a serious academic, Mendelsohn researches his own family history, illuminating thickets of secrets and information obscured by time. >> >> so memories are a start for unearthing what political states have buried. yes. as the police office said, "I'm just a nobody". so did Albert Speer. and ironically, so did Emily Dickinson say the same thing. context is everything. >> >> and i bet that what brought the Chicago Police to the Haymarket memorial wasn't because of what the memorial represented, but rather what the Anarchists represented. although, perhaps there is another history here that the chicago police were remembering. after the labor demonstration at Haymarket square, and the bombing and the trial, a memorial was erected at the site, and tall pillar with a chicago police officer atop it. in time it was moved as a traffic hazard to Union Park. in 1970 that monument was bombed and the police officer toppled. however, it was replaced with a new monument, again surmounted by a chicago police officer. at present the statue, no longer on a pedestal, stands in front of the chicago police academy. >> >> so, in retrospect, yeah, now i think you're probably right that there was a direct connection to the Haymarket memorial - and again, i think that this is evidence of not just different but competing for dominance particular figured worlds. so possibly your theory of history could embody figured worlds as well. >> >> phillip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200505/f7572e90/attachment.html From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Tue May 5 13:14:20 2020 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 17:14:20 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Mind in Society Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Due to the vast popularity of the book "mind in society" here in Brazil, some students of mine asked me for the original sources of the material. I tried to find a paper about it, but could not. Does anyone have it? I tried to do it by myself, mostly by what I remember, I need to dive in lots of texts and, due to the pandemic, I had no time for it yet. Chapter 1: Tool and Symbol in Child Development Tool and Symbol https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/tool-symbol.htm__;!!Mih3wA!WqpR2AbLpbUwSuTDA5nDWHZhdpVXqhaL-6lfgqnY7oy1swmLfasUhvun7LoZ9YWOa-8-kA$ Chapter 2: The Development of Perception and Attention Collected works Volume 4 The History of the Development of the Higher Mental Functions Chapter 9: Mastering Attention Chapter 3: Mastery of Memory and Thinking Collected works Volume 4 The History of the Development of the Higher Mental Functions Chapter 10: The Development of Mnemonic and Mnemotechnical Functions Chapter 4: Internalization of Higher Psychological Functions Collected works Volume 4 The History of the Development of the Higher Mental Functions Chapter 5: Genesis of Higher Mental Functions https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1931/higher-mental-functions.htm__;!!Mih3wA!WqpR2AbLpbUwSuTDA5nDWHZhdpVXqhaL-6lfgqnY7oy1swmLfasUhvun7LoZ9YX987WxOg$ Chapter 5: Problems of Method Collected works Volume 4 The History of the Development of the Higher Mental FunctionsChapter 2: Research Method https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1931/research-method.htm__;!!Mih3wA!WqpR2AbLpbUwSuTDA5nDWHZhdpVXqhaL-6lfgqnY7oy1swmLfasUhvun7LoZ9YV0meyB4A$ Chapter 6: Interaction between Learning and Development Thinking and Speech Chapter 6. The Development of Scientific Concepts in Childhood https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/words/ch06.htm__;!!Mih3wA!WqpR2AbLpbUwSuTDA5nDWHZhdpVXqhaL-6lfgqnY7oy1swmLfasUhvun7LoZ9YVNW2l3yg$ Chapter 7: The Role of Play in Development Play and its role in the Mental development of the Child, 1933 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1933/play.htm__;!!Mih3wA!WqpR2AbLpbUwSuTDA5nDWHZhdpVXqhaL-6lfgqnY7oy1swmLfasUhvun7LoZ9YUgKXpKLg$ Chapter 8: The Prehistory of Written Language (Luria) The Development of Writing in the Child, https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/archive/luria/works/1929/writing-child.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!WqpR2AbLpbUwSuTDA5nDWHZhdpVXqhaL-6lfgqnY7oy1swmLfasUhvun7LoZ9YUYN912Ig$ Is this right? Thank you, Wagner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200505/e009ee30/attachment.html From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Thu May 7 07:18:05 2020 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 14:18:05 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: As of 2020, the American Century is Over In-Reply-To: <44F64C4C-48BC-477C-AA43-FFC631756CDE@gmail.com> References: <85fc2557-3931-47ff-12d4-267e9281a955@marxists.org> <7F106666-4E69-4606-AAB0-10EE9E7A733D@gmail.com> <255B3664-FD24-4025-9854-0B5D8EFA2962@gmail.com> <1c1c059f-f9a9-3606-ae1c-56d0626dd7e6@marxists.org> <4BF1F09B-8C62-4B6B-A573-27F80EDBF7D4@gmail.com> <6EA7437D-09DC-4B52-B00B-218E674D1B85@gmail.com> <8BB24F8E-61F8-4181-B071-CC8AB20CF0A9@cantab.net> <00195FA2-F3D5-41A8-9E42-E3AEEBD32A1D@cantab.net> <3A7B8D80-32A7-4512-BE03-B6C2B297C454@gmail.com> , <44F64C4C-48BC-477C-AA43-FFC631756CDE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Helena & Henry - yeah, the Choudry & Williams paper re:figured worlds and power was a pleasure to read - nuanced and evocative. i was reminded of Bateson's Steps to an Ecology of Mind, in which one of his assertions is that one of the attributed of learning - change in which a difference makes a difference - stochastic. also, i think that Yuval Noah Harari's assertion in Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind, that it was with the emergence of language that as one of the five great apes groups we were able to imagine figured worlds that don't exist - what he describes as the Cognitive Revolution. it was somewhere in the early 2000's that i wrote a review of Identity and Agency in Cultural Worlds for MCA. thought i had first come across Dorothy Holland's work through Margaret Eisenhart's instruction on ethnographic methods and educational research. even earlier, at a conference in the early 90's Eisenhart suggested that every school have an anthropologist as a learning/teaching resource for classroom teachers. of course, Shirley Brice Heath, as well as Kris Gutierrez, and Jose Lemon (Dancing with the Devil) are great exemplars of that, amongst too many others to mention. again, Helena, many thanks for the paper. phillip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200507/4de13d06/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Tue May 12 06:41:03 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 23:41:03 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] "sociocultural psychology" ? Message-ID: Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" originated? Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200512/63b20165/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue May 12 18:30:52 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 10:30:52 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Andy: I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but here's what I got. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!T9TXqTQDd-8tvv5PfuxbPkx6Drdw0VlIrRNfcypZApQv2jnziHRkeAppccOVAZEmjetMCg$ " width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 frameborder=0 scrolling=no So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after 1992 is Vygotsky though. Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!T9TXqTQDd-8tvv5PfuxbPkx6Drdw0VlIrRNfcypZApQv2jnziHRkeAppccOVAZFjmWjmLg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T9TXqTQDd-8tvv5PfuxbPkx6Drdw0VlIrRNfcypZApQv2jnziHRkeAppccOVAZGMmypSYw$ On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" > originated? > > Andy > -- > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200513/8f203471/attachment-0001.html From andyb@marxists.org Tue May 12 18:37:56 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 11:37:56 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks David, that is very useful indeed. Let's see if some of our older colleagues have first hand memory of its appearance and we have people on xmca who use the term, who could help us out, too. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: > Andy: > > I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing > this too, but here's what I got. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!TSI2uW0gKUz2BIUsNOFomPvV7VIeJgxcL8xsjKYdNLDj4Mr5gYow2i-VGlnvnd4KluMBeQ$ > " > width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 > vspace=0 frameborder=0 scrolling=no > > So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this > probably referred to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and > Language", but when I looked the only books that used the > term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after > 1992 is Vygotsky though. > > Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will > find very different results in German, where "cultural > historical psychology" is the trend identified with > Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a > manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!TSI2uW0gKUz2BIUsNOFomPvV7VIeJgxcL8xsjKYdNLDj4Mr5gYow2i-VGlnvnd5WYuDkFw$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. Vygotsky's > Pedological Works/ /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TSI2uW0gKUz2BIUsNOFomPvV7VIeJgxcL8xsjKYdNLDj4Mr5gYow2i-VGlnvnd4kNcZbWQ$ > > > > > On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term > "sociocultural psychology" originated? > > Andy > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200513/5f310600/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Tue May 12 18:47:10 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 11:47:10 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? And Google also tell us that "Socioculturaltheory grew from the work of seminalpsychologistLev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: > Andy: > > I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing > this too, but here's what I got. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!XAtiPQXEOK3tz8RHCURqNz0psvv8Js3PxWmYUmHtZyY5j_IK-RqcFDVph7-NJ5g4sJwAmg$ > " > width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 > vspace=0 frameborder=0 scrolling=no > > So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this > probably referred to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and > Language", but when I looked the only books that used the > term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after > 1992 is Vygotsky though. > > Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will > find very different results in German, where "cultural > historical psychology" is the trend identified with > Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a > manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!XAtiPQXEOK3tz8RHCURqNz0psvv8Js3PxWmYUmHtZyY5j_IK-RqcFDVph7-NJ5gsWC5Fug$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. Vygotsky's > Pedological Works/ /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XAtiPQXEOK3tz8RHCURqNz0psvv8Js3PxWmYUmHtZyY5j_IK-RqcFDVph7-NJ5hfJBdn1g$ > > > > > On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term > "sociocultural psychology" originated? > > Andy > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200513/6668276e/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Tue May 12 19:15:24 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 21:15:24 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> Message-ID: <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in English is this: A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use the term ?sociocultural? frequently. The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study of the Mexican. Martin > On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? > > And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. > > Andy > > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: >> Andy: >> >> I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but here's what I got. >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!T1M7aXI0nmMHncuqKBWiiXIvEyDnJSGH5inSOiI9pQWSe4Mgw7NFx7NBlvdL7NcXvQk2Yw$ " width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 frameborder=0 scrolling=no >> >> So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after 1992 is Vygotsky though. >> >> Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!T1M7aXI0nmMHncuqKBWiiXIvEyDnJSGH5inSOiI9pQWSe4Mgw7NFx7NBlvdL7NfpCFJ5Kg$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T1M7aXI0nmMHncuqKBWiiXIvEyDnJSGH5inSOiI9pQWSe4Mgw7NFx7NBlvdL7NdyLISPjw$ >> >> >> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: >> Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" originated? >> >> Andy >> -- >> Andy Blunden >> Hegel for Social Movements >> Home Page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200512/604b276f/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue May 12 19:26:12 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 11:26:12 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> Message-ID: Andy-- Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!Wt7qmS7sdvLo3anWG71NQFUJMvyFBqEy-mStjfAI_HEUpY8D8dQt5zHkl12Ld90MDkv2Mw$ Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the years you'll get better granularity in the document search. On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. dk David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!Wt7qmS7sdvLo3anWG71NQFUJMvyFBqEy-mStjfAI_HEUpY8D8dQt5zHkl12Ld92Vl0flPg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Wt7qmS7sdvLo3anWG71NQFUJMvyFBqEy-mStjfAI_HEUpY8D8dQt5zHkl12Ld92EeQenpA$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer wrote: > The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in > English is this: > > A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero > > In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press > > Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use > the term ?sociocultural? frequently. > > The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, > and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study > of the Mexican. > > Martin > > > > > On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How > do we find out who wrote what in 1988? > > And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of > seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, > peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing > higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in > interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: > > Andy: > > I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but > here's what I got. > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!Wt7qmS7sdvLo3anWG71NQFUJMvyFBqEy-mStjfAI_HEUpY8D8dQt5zHkl12Ld91cpmUtAA$ > " > width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 > frameborder=0 scrolling=no > > So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to > the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only > books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after > 1992 is Vygotsky though. > > Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very > different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the > trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!Wt7qmS7sdvLo3anWG71NQFUJMvyFBqEy-mStjfAI_HEUpY8D8dQt5zHkl12Ld92Vl0flPg$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Wt7qmS7sdvLo3anWG71NQFUJMvyFBqEy-mStjfAI_HEUpY8D8dQt5zHkl12Ld92EeQenpA$ > > > > > On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" >> originated? >> >> Andy >> -- >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200513/40ea83e7/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Tue May 12 21:13:32 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 14:13:32 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> Message-ID: Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action " published by Harvard University Press in 1991. Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and artefacts mediating action. Thanks again to all Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > Andy-- > > Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!WsWX2sD5ZfUnBEp3uLEVG7T0NliMnbPpuJl6VOoxtiFfKP5msJWjbZPFaCQ6jDUN65Ll9w$ > > Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If > you set the years you'll get better granularity in the > document search. > On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in > blue--when you click on them, you should get a list of all > the books used in the search. > > dk > > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a > manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!WsWX2sD5ZfUnBEp3uLEVG7T0NliMnbPpuJl6VOoxtiFfKP5msJWjbZPFaCQ6jDUVV6zLzQ$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. Vygotsky's > Pedological Works/ /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WsWX2sD5ZfUnBEp3uLEVG7T0NliMnbPpuJl6VOoxtiFfKP5msJWjbZPFaCQ6jDWugBMFbQ$ > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer > > wrote: > > The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been > able to find in English is this: > > A?sociocultural psychology, by?Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero > > In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press > > Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose > publications in Spanish use the term ?sociocultural? > frequently. > > The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in > Google books, and?Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, > but titled The psychological study of the Mexican. > > Martin > > > > >> On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >> >> That graph from Google shows that usage of the term >> took off in 1988. How do we find out who wrote what >> in 1988? >> >> And Google also tell us that "Socioculturaltheory >> grew from the work of seminalpsychologistLev >> Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, >> peers, and the culture at large were responsible for >> developing higher-order functions. According to >> Vygotsky, learning has its basis in interacting with >> other people," together with a reference. So that is >> nice. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: >>> Andy: >>> >>> I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of >>> doing this too, but here's what I got. >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!WsWX2sD5ZfUnBEp3uLEVG7T0NliMnbPpuJl6VOoxtiFfKP5msJWjbZPFaCQ6jDV7659tkg$ >>> " >>> width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 >>> hspace=0 vspace=0 frameborder=0 scrolling=no >>> >>> So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought >>> this probably referred to the Hanfmann and Vakar >>> "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only >>> books that used the term were sports psychology >>> books. The big uptick after 1992 is Vygotsky though. >>> >>> Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you >>> will find very different results in German, where >>> "cultural historical psychology" is the trend >>> identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and >>> neo-Kantianism generally. >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual >>> and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!WsWX2sD5ZfUnBEp3uLEVG7T0NliMnbPpuJl6VOoxtiFfKP5msJWjbZPFaCQ6jDUVV6zLzQ$ >>> >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: >>> Foundations of Pedology/" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WsWX2sD5ZfUnBEp3uLEVG7T0NliMnbPpuJl6VOoxtiFfKP5msJWjbZPFaCQ6jDWugBMFbQ$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term >>> "sociocultural psychology" originated? >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> -- >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200513/d8127982/attachment.html From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue May 12 21:35:53 2020 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 22:35:53 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> Message-ID: Also the uptick in 1940 might have had something to do with Pitirim Alexandrovich Sorokin's book series Social and Cultural Dynamics which uses the term "sociocultural". Lots of interesting threads to trace! -greg On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:16 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the > term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word > "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is > the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices > of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action > " > published by Harvard University Press in 1991. > > Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context > dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this > book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and > artefacts mediating action. > > Thanks again to all > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > Andy-- > > Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!WXKJzgjjwmomNJIBF4X_WdNnFZQZ0-E8EopCxN_jfiQgRBFay4vLvqNABFuGFMHuYmdzxg$ > > Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the > years you'll get better granularity in the document search. > On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click > on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. > > dk > > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!WXKJzgjjwmomNJIBF4X_WdNnFZQZ0-E8EopCxN_jfiQgRBFay4vLvqNABFuGFMGmc7TRGA$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WXKJzgjjwmomNJIBF4X_WdNnFZQZ0-E8EopCxN_jfiQgRBFay4vLvqNABFuGFMGB5-c04w$ > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer wrote: > >> The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in >> English is this: >> >> A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero >> >> In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press >> >> Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use >> the term ?sociocultural? frequently. >> >> The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, >> and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study >> of the Mexican. >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >> On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How >> do we find out who wrote what in 1988? >> >> And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of >> seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, >> caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing >> higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in >> interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> Andy: >> >> I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but >> here's what I got. >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!WXKJzgjjwmomNJIBF4X_WdNnFZQZ0-E8EopCxN_jfiQgRBFay4vLvqNABFuGFMHkQ9K0OA$ >> " >> width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 >> frameborder=0 scrolling=no >> >> So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred >> to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the >> only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick >> after 1992 is Vygotsky though. >> >> Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very >> different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the >> trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!WXKJzgjjwmomNJIBF4X_WdNnFZQZ0-E8EopCxN_jfiQgRBFay4vLvqNABFuGFMGmc7TRGA$ >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WXKJzgjjwmomNJIBF4X_WdNnFZQZ0-E8EopCxN_jfiQgRBFay4vLvqNABFuGFMGB5-c04w$ >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural >>> psychology" originated? >>> >>> Andy >>> -- >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!WXKJzgjjwmomNJIBF4X_WdNnFZQZ0-E8EopCxN_jfiQgRBFay4vLvqNABFuGFME2B1kWpQ$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!WXKJzgjjwmomNJIBF4X_WdNnFZQZ0-E8EopCxN_jfiQgRBFay4vLvqNABFuGFMEaAMO3ZQ$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200512/37152e54/attachment.html From laure.kloetzer@gmail.com Wed May 13 03:29:24 2020 From: laure.kloetzer@gmail.com (Laure Kloetzer) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 12:29:24 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] English version of the Vygotsky's draft on Concrete Human Psychology Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I am urgently looking for the English translation of the draft by Vygotsky, 1929, on concrete psychology. Ii was apparently published here: Vygotsky, L. S. (1989). Concrete human psychology. *Soviet psychology*, *27*(2), 53-77. But I can not access Soviet psychology with my University account ha ha ha. The draft has been discussed some years ago shortly on XMCA and someone had a copy but it was not publicly shared at that time... Would anyone of you please have this text and could share it on the list or send it to me privately? Many many thanks, Best regards LK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200513/0e05a70b/attachment.html From agn3@lehigh.edu Wed May 13 05:57:15 2020 From: agn3@lehigh.edu (Ageliki Nicolopoulou) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 08:57:15 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] request for help: syllabus for online cross-cultural human development seminar Message-ID: Dear xmcers, As the likelihood of having classes online again in the fall increases, I would like to be proactive. I teach an upper division seminar titled "Human Development in cross-cultural perspective" at my school here in the US. This is a small upper division seminar with 16 students so I have conducted the course with class discussion, class presentations and I have the students write two papers and do one project that they present in class. I need to put this course online for the fall semester. While the university has not made a final decision, the writing is on the wall that we're going to be online to a large degree. I'm not very familiar with online pedagogy and what works or not etc. So I would very much appreciate receiving a syllabus for an *online course* similar to my own (Human Development from a cross-cultural/ cultural perspective). Thanks in advance! Ageliki Nicolopoulou ________________ Ageliki Nicolopoulou, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology Lehigh University, Bethlehem PA Personal Webpage: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About__;!!Mih3wA!Uvi7ZHeELa0mOC7y23PSrqB4-xrq2C2QE4t1WEXUaXdRwSsrzhGpzSlNDQXqBnnk61SJ9Q$ Departmental Webpage: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://psychology.cas2.lehigh.edu/content/agn3__;!!Mih3wA!Uvi7ZHeELa0mOC7y23PSrqB4-xrq2C2QE4t1WEXUaXdRwSsrzhGpzSlNDQXqBnlbiP2EMA$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200513/080d7a04/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Wed May 13 07:16:19 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 09:16:19 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> Message-ID: I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their view it?s the best term: Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). Sociocultural studies of mind. Cambridge University Press. Martin > On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action " published by Harvard University Press in 1991. > Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and artefacts mediating action. > > Thanks again to all > > Andy > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >> Andy-- >> >> Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!UOZmbizxLDdhiUN7282hnSOscK6qxySgYtVANwMDQugIlDzGRBOJjKLdh5AW3Jbmi_VD0g$ >> Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the years you'll get better granularity in the document search. >> On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. >> >> dk >> >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!UOZmbizxLDdhiUN7282hnSOscK6qxySgYtVANwMDQugIlDzGRBOJjKLdh5AW3JY0T3Ypdg$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UOZmbizxLDdhiUN7282hnSOscK6qxySgYtVANwMDQugIlDzGRBOJjKLdh5AW3Ja4jOojWg$ >> >> >> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer > wrote: >> The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in English is this: >> >> A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero >> >> In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press >> >> Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use the term ?sociocultural? frequently. >> >> The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study of the Mexican. >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >>> On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>> >>> That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? >>> >>> And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> Andy Blunden >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> Home Page >>> On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: >>>> Andy: >>>> >>>> I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but here's what I got. >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!UOZmbizxLDdhiUN7282hnSOscK6qxySgYtVANwMDQugIlDzGRBOJjKLdh5AW3Jat07NPwA$ " width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 frameborder=0 scrolling=no >>>> >>>> So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after 1992 is Vygotsky though. >>>> >>>> Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. >>>> >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!UOZmbizxLDdhiUN7282hnSOscK6qxySgYtVANwMDQugIlDzGRBOJjKLdh5AW3JY0T3Ypdg$ >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UOZmbizxLDdhiUN7282hnSOscK6qxySgYtVANwMDQugIlDzGRBOJjKLdh5AW3Ja4jOojWg$ >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: >>>> Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" originated? >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> -- >>>> Andy Blunden >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> Home Page >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200513/fd44a374/attachment.html From laure.kloetzer@gmail.com Wed May 13 07:40:35 2020 From: laure.kloetzer@gmail.com (Laure Kloetzer) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 16:40:35 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: English version of the Vygotsky's draft on Concrete Human Psychology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Many thanks for your quick help with this translation, it shows once more the wonderful power of this community! Best regards to all, LK Le mer. 13 mai 2020 ? 12:29, Laure Kloetzer a ?crit : > Dear colleagues, > > I am urgently looking for the English translation of the draft by > Vygotsky, 1929, on concrete psychology. > Ii was apparently published here: Vygotsky, L. S. (1989). Concrete human > psychology. *Soviet psychology*, *27*(2), 53-77. > But I can not access Soviet psychology with my University account ha ha ha. > > The draft has been discussed some years ago shortly on XMCA and someone > had a copy but it was not publicly shared at that time... > > Would anyone of you please have this text and could share it on the list > or send it to me privately? > > Many many thanks, > Best regards > LK > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200513/51fb930c/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Wed May 13 08:05:35 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 11:05:35 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> Message-ID: Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!WLyceskZQL4AGQL-pVuwd-RH-yfvzQvsIVerMU367Nw8BZjwVLHdZ94SZfyfIX_sfjyW7w$ "Pros and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so sure the cons outweigh the pros here. But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm more outsider than insider and don't really know. Thank you for any insight. Anthony On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer wrote: > I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. > > Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this > book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their > view it?s the best term: > > Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). *Sociocultural > studies of mind.* Cambridge University Press. > > > Martin > > > > On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the > term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word > "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is > the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices > of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action > " > published by Harvard University Press in 1991. > > Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context > dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this > book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and > artefacts mediating action. > > Thanks again to all > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > Andy-- > > Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!WLyceskZQL4AGQL-pVuwd-RH-yfvzQvsIVerMU367Nw8BZjwVLHdZ94SZfyfIX8Osb_s8Q$ > > Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the > years you'll get better granularity in the document search. > On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click > on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. > > dk > > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!WLyceskZQL4AGQL-pVuwd-RH-yfvzQvsIVerMU367Nw8BZjwVLHdZ94SZfyfIX-WYQs2ZA$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WLyceskZQL4AGQL-pVuwd-RH-yfvzQvsIVerMU367Nw8BZjwVLHdZ94SZfyfIX_6QMymJQ$ > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer wrote: > >> The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in >> English is this: >> >> A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero >> >> In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press >> >> Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use >> the term ?sociocultural? frequently. >> >> The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, >> and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study >> of the Mexican. >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >> On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How >> do we find out who wrote what in 1988? >> >> And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of >> seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, >> caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing >> higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in >> interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> Andy: >> >> I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but >> here's what I got. >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!WLyceskZQL4AGQL-pVuwd-RH-yfvzQvsIVerMU367Nw8BZjwVLHdZ94SZfyfIX-1N9ckJw$ >> " >> width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 >> frameborder=0 scrolling=no >> >> So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred >> to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the >> only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick >> after 1992 is Vygotsky though. >> >> Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very >> different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the >> trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!WLyceskZQL4AGQL-pVuwd-RH-yfvzQvsIVerMU367Nw8BZjwVLHdZ94SZfyfIX-WYQs2ZA$ >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WLyceskZQL4AGQL-pVuwd-RH-yfvzQvsIVerMU367Nw8BZjwVLHdZ94SZfyfIX_6QMymJQ$ >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural >>> psychology" originated? >>> >>> Andy >>> -- >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200513/010cf6e2/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Wed May 13 08:05:35 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 11:05:35 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> Message-ID: Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!XtZNVFcJmlAepH-seB2QysDcEDyDd1rpEbsNWfBGFVu5g41jJ3ed66DQoM7Nzt4EzW7K6A$ "Pros and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so sure the cons outweigh the pros here. But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm more outsider than insider and don't really know. Thank you for any insight. Anthony On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer wrote: > I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. > > Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this > book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their > view it?s the best term: > > Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). *Sociocultural > studies of mind.* Cambridge University Press. > > > Martin > > > > On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the > term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word > "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is > the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices > of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action > " > published by Harvard University Press in 1991. > > Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context > dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this > book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and > artefacts mediating action. > > Thanks again to all > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > Andy-- > > Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!XtZNVFcJmlAepH-seB2QysDcEDyDd1rpEbsNWfBGFVu5g41jJ3ed66DQoM7Nzt6PgGgH5A$ > > Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the > years you'll get better granularity in the document search. > On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click > on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. > > dk > > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!XtZNVFcJmlAepH-seB2QysDcEDyDd1rpEbsNWfBGFVu5g41jJ3ed66DQoM7Nzt5EBTb5nQ$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XtZNVFcJmlAepH-seB2QysDcEDyDd1rpEbsNWfBGFVu5g41jJ3ed66DQoM7Nzt5dQj4y8Q$ > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer wrote: > >> The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in >> English is this: >> >> A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero >> >> In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press >> >> Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use >> the term ?sociocultural? frequently. >> >> The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, >> and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study >> of the Mexican. >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >> On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How >> do we find out who wrote what in 1988? >> >> And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of >> seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, >> caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing >> higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in >> interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> Andy: >> >> I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but >> here's what I got. >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!XtZNVFcJmlAepH-seB2QysDcEDyDd1rpEbsNWfBGFVu5g41jJ3ed66DQoM7Nzt5B6f3g6A$ >> " >> width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 >> frameborder=0 scrolling=no >> >> So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred >> to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the >> only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick >> after 1992 is Vygotsky though. >> >> Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very >> different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the >> trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!XtZNVFcJmlAepH-seB2QysDcEDyDd1rpEbsNWfBGFVu5g41jJ3ed66DQoM7Nzt5EBTb5nQ$ >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XtZNVFcJmlAepH-seB2QysDcEDyDd1rpEbsNWfBGFVu5g41jJ3ed66DQoM7Nzt5dQj4y8Q$ >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural >>> psychology" originated? >>> >>> Andy >>> -- >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200513/010cf6e2/attachment-0001.html From bazerman@education.ucsb.edu Wed May 13 08:38:35 2020 From: bazerman@education.ucsb.edu (Charles Bazerman) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 08:38:35 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> Message-ID: Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the components more than others and he was acting nominally as a psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these components. I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. Chuck ---- ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. History will judge. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!UhKa4f0rCaFbK573eepABBebep9QDP87JqQVUnd9uIfxETz6hRUnOR46PYaTgoSDGY6tLw$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!UhKa4f0rCaFbK573eepABBebep9QDP87JqQVUnd9uIfxETz6hRUnOR46PYaTgoSePA_SrQ$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!UhKa4f0rCaFbK573eepABBebep9QDP87JqQVUnd9uIfxETz6hRUnOR46PYaTgoRwwTwk4Q$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra wrote: > Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. > > While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any > value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!UhKa4f0rCaFbK573eepABBebep9QDP87JqQVUnd9uIfxETz6hRUnOR46PYaTgoSPMfyTXw$ > "Pros > and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" > > As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so > sure the cons outweigh the pros here. > > But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could > Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If > so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? > I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm > more outsider than insider and don't really know. > > Thank you for any insight. > > Anthony > > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer wrote: > >> I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. >> >> Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this >> book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their >> view it?s the best term: >> >> Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). *Sociocultural >> studies of mind.* Cambridge University Press. >> >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the >> term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word >> "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is >> the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices >> of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action >> " >> published by Harvard University Press in 1991. >> >> Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context >> dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this >> book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and >> artefacts mediating action. >> >> Thanks again to all >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> Andy-- >> >> Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!UhKa4f0rCaFbK573eepABBebep9QDP87JqQVUnd9uIfxETz6hRUnOR46PYaTgoSH87e-IA$ >> >> Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the >> years you'll get better granularity in the document search. >> On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click >> on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. >> >> dk >> >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!UhKa4f0rCaFbK573eepABBebep9QDP87JqQVUnd9uIfxETz6hRUnOR46PYaTgoSnpt5NbA$ >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UhKa4f0rCaFbK573eepABBebep9QDP87JqQVUnd9uIfxETz6hRUnOR46PYaTgoSHxk_2lA$ >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer >> wrote: >> >>> The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in >>> English is this: >>> >>> A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero >>> >>> In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press >>> >>> Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish >>> use the term ?sociocultural? frequently. >>> >>> The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, >>> and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study >>> of the Mexican. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. >>> How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? >>> >>> And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work >>> of seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, >>> caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing >>> higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in >>> interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: >>> >>> Andy: >>> >>> I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but >>> here's what I got. >>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!UhKa4f0rCaFbK573eepABBebep9QDP87JqQVUnd9uIfxETz6hRUnOR46PYaTgoS8j-I0IQ$ >>> " >>> width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 >>> frameborder=0 scrolling=no >>> >>> So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred >>> to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the >>> only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick >>> after 1992 is Vygotsky though. >>> >>> Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very >>> different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the >>> trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!UhKa4f0rCaFbK573eepABBebep9QDP87JqQVUnd9uIfxETz6hRUnOR46PYaTgoSnpt5NbA$ >>> >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UhKa4f0rCaFbK573eepABBebep9QDP87JqQVUnd9uIfxETz6hRUnOR46PYaTgoSHxk_2lA$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural >>>> psychology" originated? >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> -- >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200513/7c3d920c/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed May 13 09:02:57 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 09:02:57 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: English version of the Vygotsky's draft on Concrete Human Psychology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: here it is for anyone who wants it. mike On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 7:43 AM Laure Kloetzer wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > Many thanks for your quick help with this translation, it shows once more > the wonderful power of this community! > Best regards to all, > LK > > > Le mer. 13 mai 2020 ? 12:29, Laure Kloetzer a > ?crit : > >> Dear colleagues, >> >> I am urgently looking for the English translation of the draft by >> Vygotsky, 1929, on concrete psychology. >> Ii was apparently published here: Vygotsky, L. S. (1989). Concrete human >> psychology. *Soviet psychology*, *27*(2), 53-77. >> But I can not access Soviet psychology with my University account ha ha >> ha. >> >> The draft has been discussed some years ago shortly on XMCA and someone >> had a copy but it was not publicly shared at that time... >> >> Would anyone of you please have this text and could share it on the list >> or send it to me privately? >> >> Many many thanks, >> Best regards >> LK >> >> > -- ?It is education which should play the central role in the transformation of man - this road of conscious social formation of new generations, the basic form to alter the historical human type. *New generations and new forms of their education represent the main route which history will follow whilst creating the new type of man. * Vygotsky (1932?; 1994, p.81). --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For archival materials and a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200513/676ef46e/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Vygotsky Concrete.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 292726 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200513/676ef46e/attachment.pdf From helenaworthen@gmail.com Wed May 13 10:30:03 2020 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 10:30:03 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: As of 2020, the American Century is Over In-Reply-To: References: <85fc2557-3931-47ff-12d4-267e9281a955@marxists.org> <7F106666-4E69-4606-AAB0-10EE9E7A733D@gmail.com> <255B3664-FD24-4025-9854-0B5D8EFA2962@gmail.com> <1c1c059f-f9a9-3606-ae1c-56d0626dd7e6@marxists.org> <4BF1F09B-8C62-4B6B-A573-27F80EDBF7D4@gmail.com> <6EA7437D-09DC-4B52-B00B-218E674D1B85@gmail.com> <8BB24F8E-61F8-4181-B071-CC8AB20CF0A9@cantab.net> <00195FA2-F3D5-41A8-9E42-E3AEEBD32A1D@cantab.net> <3A7B8D80-32A7-4512-BE03-B6C2B297C454@gmail.com> <44F64C4C-48BC-477C-AA43-FFC631756CDE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2C198029-0CA9-4B2D-BE75-E418C7941ACD@gmail.com> Great list of references, Phillip. As someone who teaches outside the school context, as compared to what I think is the majority of people on this list, I often have to push myself to justify why I feel so at home in the Vygotskian tradition (or CHAT, or socio-cultural tradition). I notice that my bookshelf looks a lot like yours. If I walked into your study and looked at your bookshelf I?d probably have a good laugh. So what do these people have in common that defines them as being part of one tradition? And compared to what? Focus on language, social interaction, paying attention to history, paying attention to context - and the assumption that international is a plus? As compared to avoiding genetics, testing, individualism, anything defined by national boundaries? On a big scale, in other words, what?s special about the sociocultural approach? Why do I recognize your list? Thanks ? H Helena Worthen helenaworthen.wordpress.com > On May 7, 2020, at 7:18 AM, White, Phillip wrote: > > Helena & Henry - yeah, the Choudry & Williams paper re:figured worlds and power was a pleasure to read - nuanced and evocative. i was reminded of Bateson's Steps to an Ecology of Mind, in which one of his assertions is that one of the attributed of learning - change in which a difference makes a difference - stochastic. also, i think that Yuval Noah Harari's assertion in Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind, that it was with the emergence of language that as one of the five great apes groups we were able to imagine figured worlds that don't exist - what he describes as the Cognitive Revolution. > it was somewhere in the early 2000's that i wrote a review of Identity and Agency in Cultural Worlds for MCA. thought i had first come across Dorothy Holland's work through Margaret Eisenhart's instruction on ethnographic methods and educational research. even earlier, at a conference in the early 90's Eisenhart suggested that every school have an anthropologist as a learning/teaching resource for classroom teachers. of course, Shirley Brice Heath, as well as Kris Gutierrez, and Jose Lemon (Dancing with the Devil) are great exemplars of that, amongst too many others to mention. > > again, Helena, many thanks for the paper. > > phillip >> >> >> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200513/6298a420/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed May 13 16:25:26 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 16:25:26 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_=F0=9F=93=84_=22Child_Development=3A_Understand?= =?utf-8?q?ing_a_Cultural_Perspective=3A_sample_chapter=22_by_Marti?= =?utf-8?q?n_Packer?= In-Reply-To: <010001720ff0b1ef-75a7460d-161a-4c78-8f40-20fec592c49b-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <010001720ff0b1ef-75a7460d-161a-4c78-8f40-20fec592c49b-000000@email.amazonses.com> Message-ID: For all those looking for materials for your online courses involving culture and development. :-) mike ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Academia Date: Wed, May 13, 2020 at 2:28 PM Subject: ? "Child Development: Understanding a Cultural Perspective: sample chapter" by Martin Packer To: [image: Academia.edu] ------------------------------ >From your Reading History: Child Development: Understanding a Cultural Perspective: sample chapter [image: Paper Thumbnail] [image: Author Photo] Martin Packer 898 Views View PDF ? Download PDF ? ABSTRACT The field of developmental research is currently in an important and exciting transition, with growing recognition of the importance of culture in children?s development. There is a pressing need for a fundamental change in the organization of textbooks in this field, for very few textbooks currently place culture... read more... Want fewer recommendations like this one? ------------------------------ 580 California St., Suite 400, San Francisco, CA, 94104 Unsubscribe Privacy Policy Terms of Service ? 2020 Academia -- ?It is education which should play the central role in the transformation of man - this road of conscious social formation of new generations, the basic form to alter the historical human type. *New generations and new forms of their education represent the main route which history will follow whilst creating the new type of man. * Vygotsky (1932?; 1994, p.81). --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For archival materials and a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200513/e4609df3/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Wed May 13 18:55:31 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 11:55:31 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> Message-ID: I should have reported progress with my question. Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin referred to on his academia.edu page for us all to read. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!R2PQRv7SmtSpShBHHVPDEjIG1-ol_VEYh22ETbbkrOTaZbmV95HyZtHr1MBppGr6Y2oI9g$ As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: > Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. > The way I see this issue is that?Vygotskian work > attempts?to understand human activity multi-dimensionally > (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what the > emergence of various parochial disciplines have > pulled?apart for analysis of the separate dimensions).? > The different terms that Veresov points out as contending > are simply foregrounding those sets of components that are > most salient to the particular analyst at that moment.? To > those we might add other elements that Vygotsky was > interested in such as consciousness and language and > experience and mediation (and even economics and human > knowledge?and education lurk in the background, as well as > human neurodiversity as well as materialities of the > experienced world).? That is the wonder of Vygotsky, even > though he may have developed some of the components more > than others and he was acting nominally as a > psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of > all these components. > > I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending > on what I am talking about, and I see activity as the > overarching term--though this does not necessarily mean > triangles all the time.? Rather activity is humans in > motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external > resources in situations. > > While I would like some stability in terms, right now our > different concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And > I am not yet?comfortable in being terminally enlisted into > another scholar's transient saliencies. > > BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at > reintegrating the social sciences in the pragmatist > project which has at times been in communication with the > activity theory project (see my paper "Practically > Human").? This project also never settled on a coherent > set of terms and stable concepts. > > Chuck > ---- > ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? > ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? > Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. > The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. > History will judge. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!R2PQRv7SmtSpShBHHVPDEjIG1-ol_VEYh22ETbbkrOTaZbmV95HyZtHr1MBppGraddv37w$ > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!R2PQRv7SmtSpShBHHVPDEjIG1-ol_VEYh22ETbbkrOTaZbmV95HyZtHr1MBppGpCD0cKNg$ > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!R2PQRv7SmtSpShBHHVPDEjIG1-ol_VEYh22ETbbkrOTaZbmV95HyZtHr1MBppGoTInzQ0Q$ > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra > > > wrote: > > Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. > > While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, > 2-minute excerpt adds any value: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!R2PQRv7SmtSpShBHHVPDEjIG1-ol_VEYh22ETbbkrOTaZbmV95HyZtHr1MBppGpcpcFRTg$ > ?"Pros > and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" > > As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main > point, but I'm not so sure the cons outweigh the pros > here. > > But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus > was formed -- could Vygotsky's theory (and > methodology), in fact, be definitively defined?? If > so, would the?benefits of doing so outweigh the > constraints? > I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe > even stale, but I'm more outsider than insider and > don't really know. > > Thank you for any insight. > > Anthony > > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer > > wrote: > > I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier > than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. > > Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in > the introduction to this book he, along with Pablo > del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their > view it?s the best term: > > Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). > (1995). /Sociocultural studies of mind./ Cambridge > University Press. > > > Martin > > > >> On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden >> > >> wrote: >> >> Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went >> into the mix. Indeed, the term seems to have >> migrated from Spanish to English and the word >> "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it >> seems that Jim Wertsch is the fellow who >> triggered the explosion in "sociocultural >> psychology" with "Voices of the mind : a >> sociocultural approach to mediated action >> " >> published by Harvard University Press in 1991. >> >> Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely >> associated with "context dependence," Wertsch's >> reference to "mediated action" in the title of >> this book makes it clear that for him "context" >> referred to the signs and artefacts mediating action. >> >> Thanks again to all >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>> Andy-- >>> >>> Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!R2PQRv7SmtSpShBHHVPDEjIG1-ol_VEYh22ETbbkrOTaZbmV95HyZtHr1MBppGpp4aQdkw$ >>> >>> Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural >>> psychology". If you set the years you'll get >>> better granularity in the document search. >>> On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some >>> dates in blue--when you click on them, you >>> should get a list of all the books used in the >>> search. >>> >>> dk >>> >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A >>> manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!R2PQRv7SmtSpShBHHVPDEjIG1-ol_VEYh22ETbbkrOTaZbmV95HyZtHr1MBppGqRBgHmgw$ >>> >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: >>> Foundations of Pedology/" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!R2PQRv7SmtSpShBHHVPDEjIG1-ol_VEYh22ETbbkrOTaZbmV95HyZtHr1MBppGpzsougQQ$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? >>> I?ve been able to find in English is this: >>> >>> A?sociocultural psychology, by?Rogelio >>> Diaz-Guerrero >>> >>> In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press >>> >>> Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists >>> whose publications in Spanish use the term >>> ?sociocultural? frequently. >>> >>> The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is >>> available in Google books, and?Diaz-Guerrero >>> has a chapter in it, but titled The >>> psychological study of the Mexican. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> That graph from Google shows that usage of >>>> the term took off in 1988. How do we find >>>> out who wrote what in 1988? >>>> >>>> And Google also tell us that >>>> "Socioculturaltheory grew from the work of >>>> seminalpsychologistLev Vygotsky, who >>>> believed that parents, caregivers, peers, >>>> and the culture at large were responsible >>>> for developing higher-order functions. >>>> According to Vygotsky, learning has its >>>> basis in interacting with other people," >>>> together with a reference. So that is nice. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>> Andy: >>>>> >>>>> I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably >>>>> thought of doing this too, but here's what >>>>> I got. >>>>> >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!R2PQRv7SmtSpShBHHVPDEjIG1-ol_VEYh22ETbbkrOTaZbmV95HyZtHr1MBppGo_H-wlJQ$ >>>>> " >>>>> width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 >>>>> marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 >>>>> frameborder=0 scrolling=no >>>>> >>>>> So it all starts around 1960. At first I >>>>> thought this probably referred to the >>>>> Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", >>>>> but when I looked the only books that used >>>>> the term were sports psychology books. The >>>>> big uptick after 1992 is Vygotsky though. >>>>> >>>>> Of course, this is all English only. I am >>>>> sure you will find very different results >>>>> in German, where "cultural historical >>>>> psychology" is the trend identified with >>>>> Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism >>>>> generally. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>> >>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A >>>>> manual and a manifesto. >>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!R2PQRv7SmtSpShBHHVPDEjIG1-ol_VEYh22ETbbkrOTaZbmV95HyZtHr1MBppGqRBgHmgw$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: >>>>> /L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ >>>>> /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!R2PQRv7SmtSpShBHHVPDEjIG1-ol_VEYh22ETbbkrOTaZbmV95HyZtHr1MBppGpzsougQQ$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy >>>>> Blunden >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Can anyone tell me when and with whom >>>>> the term "sociocultural psychology" >>>>> originated? >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> >>>>> Home Page >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200514/1a6fa938/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Wed May 13 19:33:28 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 21:33:28 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: As of 2020, the American Century is Over In-Reply-To: <2C198029-0CA9-4B2D-BE75-E418C7941ACD@gmail.com> References: <85fc2557-3931-47ff-12d4-267e9281a955@marxists.org> <7F106666-4E69-4606-AAB0-10EE9E7A733D@gmail.com> <255B3664-FD24-4025-9854-0B5D8EFA2962@gmail.com> <1c1c059f-f9a9-3606-ae1c-56d0626dd7e6@marxists.org> <4BF1F09B-8C62-4B6B-A573-27F80EDBF7D4@gmail.com> <6EA7437D-09DC-4B52-B00B-218E674D1B85@gmail.com> <8BB24F8E-61F8-4181-B071-CC8AB20CF0A9@cantab.net> <00195FA2-F3D5-41A8-9E42-E3AEEBD32A1D@cantab.net> <3A7B8D80-32A7-4512-BE03-B6C2B297C454@gmail.com> <44F64C4C-48BC-477C-AA43-FFC631756CDE@gmail.com> <2C198029-0CA9-4B2D-BE75-E418C7941ACD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <94D66C38-1426-4299-8E4E-A17948D2FAF3@cantab.net> Oh for heavens sake, someone has to take a shot! As a psychologist, what I find new, different, and useful about cultural psychology is its proposal that human psychological functioning occurs first (phylogenetically, historically, and ontogenetically) between people, as a social process, and is mediated by cultural artifacts. That?s not to ignore the genetic or the biological, because the use of artifacts transforms the people who use them, biologically, neurologically, and even genetically. And issues of equity enter because (s)he who has the artifacts has the power(s)? good night :) Martin > On May 13, 2020, at 12:30 PM, Helena Worthen wrote: > > Great list of references, Phillip. > > As someone who teaches outside the school context, as compared to what I think is the majority of people on this list, I often have to push myself to justify why I feel so at home in the Vygotskian tradition (or CHAT, or socio-cultural tradition). I notice that my bookshelf looks a lot like yours. If I walked into your study and looked at your bookshelf I?d probably have a good laugh. > > So what do these people have in common that defines them as being part of one tradition? And compared to what? > > Focus on language, social interaction, paying attention to history, paying attention to context - and the assumption that international is a plus? > > As compared to avoiding genetics, testing, individualism, anything defined by national boundaries? > > On a big scale, in other words, what?s special about the sociocultural approach? Why do I recognize your list? > > Thanks ? H > > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen.wordpress.com > > > > >> On May 7, 2020, at 7:18 AM, White, Phillip > wrote: >> >> Helena & Henry - yeah, the Choudry & Williams paper re:figured worlds and power was a pleasure to read - nuanced and evocative. i was reminded of Bateson's Steps to an Ecology of Mind, in which one of his assertions is that one of the attributed of learning - change in which a difference makes a difference - stochastic. also, i think that Yuval Noah Harari's assertion in Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind, that it was with the emergence of language that as one of the five great apes groups we were able to imagine figured worlds that don't exist - what he describes as the Cognitive Revolution. >> it was somewhere in the early 2000's that i wrote a review of Identity and Agency in Cultural Worlds for MCA. thought i had first come across Dorothy Holland's work through Margaret Eisenhart's instruction on ethnographic methods and educational research. even earlier, at a conference in the early 90's Eisenhart suggested that every school have an anthropologist as a learning/teaching resource for classroom teachers. of course, Shirley Brice Heath, as well as Kris Gutierrez, and Jose Lemon (Dancing with the Devil) are great exemplars of that, amongst too many others to mention. >> >> again, Helena, many thanks for the paper. >> >> phillip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200513/c99a4f3f/attachment.html From cortez@berkeley.edu Wed May 13 19:46:21 2020 From: cortez@berkeley.edu (ARTURO CORTEZ) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 20:46:21 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Teacher Learning & CHAT Message-ID: Hello, colleagues. I hope this message finds you well. I am planning to teach a course in the Fall entitled Teacher Learning and Critical CHAT. I am reaching out to get a list of readings that you think would be foundational and on the cutting edge in this domain. In particular, the course aims to introduce teacher educators/researchers a Critical CHAT perspective as they design teacher learning environments. A specific feature of the course is to support the doctoral students in developing and building a theory of learning for teachers. If you have any recommendations, especially the names of scholars in this field, it would be much appreciated. Thank you so much for considering. Take care, Arturo Cortez -- *Arturo Cortez, PhD* Assistant Professor Teacher Learning, Research & Practice Learning Sciences & Human Development School of Education | UCB 249 | Room 314 University of Colorado Boulder Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Territories 415.261.3155 (mobile) https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cuboulder.zoom.us/my/arturocortez__;!!Mih3wA!XicfXu18ggQvF9xQwQ8ZqqFNibxtPSQ5Px1xZhiWYcJ_F9jvo5q-mPixJtBKaz7U1N26Ig$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/education__;!!Mih3wA!XicfXu18ggQvF9xQwQ8ZqqFNibxtPSQ5Px1xZhiWYcJ_F9jvo5q-mPixJtBKaz7iEuGxjw$ Sign up for office hours here . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200513/0c469dfe/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed May 13 22:56:51 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 14:56:51 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: As of 2020, the American Century is Over In-Reply-To: <94D66C38-1426-4299-8E4E-A17948D2FAF3@cantab.net> References: <85fc2557-3931-47ff-12d4-267e9281a955@marxists.org> <7F106666-4E69-4606-AAB0-10EE9E7A733D@gmail.com> <255B3664-FD24-4025-9854-0B5D8EFA2962@gmail.com> <1c1c059f-f9a9-3606-ae1c-56d0626dd7e6@marxists.org> <4BF1F09B-8C62-4B6B-A573-27F80EDBF7D4@gmail.com> <6EA7437D-09DC-4B52-B00B-218E674D1B85@gmail.com> <8BB24F8E-61F8-4181-B071-CC8AB20CF0A9@cantab.net> <00195FA2-F3D5-41A8-9E42-E3AEEBD32A1D@cantab.net> <3A7B8D80-32A7-4512-BE03-B6C2B297C454@gmail.com> <44F64C4C-48BC-477C-AA43-FFC631756CDE@gmail.com> <2C198029-0CA9-4B2D-BE75-E418C7941ACD@gmail.com> <94D66C38-1426-4299-8E4E-A17948D2FAF3@cantab.net> Message-ID: I think our tradition has always been incredulous of frontiers for the same reason we are skeptical about elements. It's not really "as a plus" or "interdisciplinary" or "bridges not walls". It's more, "What is this thing you are calling a wall really made of?". One of the first of many distortions our elementary school kids have to learn is that there is a "science" class that includes biology and chemistry but not history and civics and a "social studies" class which includes history and civics but not biology and chemistry. Similarly, our kids learn that there is a "morals" class that isn't the same thing as "civics" or "ethics". I would like to teach them that this is something like the difference between Korean music and Western music or Asian painting and oil painting or Chinese and Western opera. But there's a little more to it than that. I don't think Vygotsky would see any of these distinctions as fundamental or essential. We can place one discipline in the background in order to foreground another (for me it's always language, and for you it's always labor). But we don't forget that we're the ones who just did that. In Midnight's Children, the Mumbai magicians are all members of the Indian Communist Party and consequently sworn, devout materialists. They can only bend reality so long as they remember that they are real themselves. . David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!UlLtbsnFYEU9uxUVpDtxIQgmzNmz2wz8fSVWuS79pILRH1ca52_dzQdUUlPohs0Vq847Mg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UlLtbsnFYEU9uxUVpDtxIQgmzNmz2wz8fSVWuS79pILRH1ca52_dzQdUUlPohs3gwAUvHw$ On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 11:36 AM Martin Packer wrote: > Oh for heavens sake, someone has to take a shot! > > As a psychologist, what I find new, different, and useful about cultural > psychology is its proposal that human psychological functioning occurs > first (phylogenetically, historically, and ontogenetically) between people, > as a social process, and is mediated by cultural artifacts. > > That?s not to ignore the genetic or the biological, because the use of > artifacts transforms the people who use them, biologically, neurologically, > and even genetically. > > And issues of equity enter because (s)he who has the artifacts has the > power(s)? > > good night :) > > Martin > > > > > On May 13, 2020, at 12:30 PM, Helena Worthen > wrote: > > Great list of references, Phillip. > > As someone who teaches outside the school context, as compared to what I > think is the majority of people on this list, I often have to push myself > to justify why I feel so at home in the Vygotskian tradition (or CHAT, or > socio-cultural tradition). I notice that my bookshelf looks a lot like > yours. If I walked into your study and looked at your bookshelf I?d > probably have a good laugh. > > So what do these people have in common that defines them as being part of > one tradition? And compared to what? > > Focus on language, social interaction, paying attention to history, paying > attention to context - and the assumption that international is a plus? > > As compared to avoiding genetics, testing, individualism, anything defined > by national boundaries? > > On a big scale, in other words, what?s special about the sociocultural > approach? Why do I recognize your list? > > Thanks ? H > > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen.wordpress.com > > > > > > On May 7, 2020, at 7:18 AM, White, Phillip > wrote: > > Helena & Henry - yeah, the Choudry & Williams paper re:figured worlds and > power was a pleasure to read - nuanced and evocative. i was reminded of > Bateson's Steps to an Ecology of Mind, in which one of his assertions is > that one of the attributed of learning - change in which a difference makes > a difference - stochastic. also, i think that Yuval Noah Harari's assertion > in Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind, that it was with the emergence of > language that as one of the five great apes groups we were able to imagine > figured worlds that don't exist - what he describes as the Cognitive > Revolution. > it was somewhere in the early 2000's that i wrote a review of Identity and > Agency in Cultural Worlds for MCA. thought i had first come across Dorothy > Holland's work through Margaret Eisenhart's instruction on ethnographic > methods and educational research. even earlier, at a conference in the > early 90's Eisenhart suggested that every school have an anthropologist as > a learning/teaching resource for classroom teachers. of course, Shirley > Brice Heath, as well as Kris Gutierrez, and Jose Lemon (Dancing with the > Devil) are great exemplars of that, amongst too many others to mention. > > again, Helena, many thanks for the paper. > > phillip > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200514/e2e1aa5d/attachment.html From alefstein@gmail.com Thu May 14 08:26:14 2020 From: alefstein@gmail.com (Adam Lefstein) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 18:26:14 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Learning & CHAT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Arturo, I wish I could enroll in your course! I'm not aware of work in the teacher learning field that self-identifies as "critical CHAT", but there are quite a few of us who are influenced by sociocultural ideas about teacher learning on the job. I recommend in particular research by Judith Warren Little, Ilana Horn, Nicole Louie, Elham Kazemi, and Peter Smagorinsky. Some colleagues and I recently published a review of 64 studies of teacher collaborative discourse, many of which adopt a roughly sociocultural approach: Lefstein, A., Louie, N., Segal, A., & Becher, A. (2020). Taking Stock of Research on Teacher Collaborative Discourse: Theory and Method in a Nascent Field. *Teaching and Teacher Education, 88. * https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0742051X1930527X__;!!Mih3wA!Q6dDFTbuVSfcCbqgzGTWAINVyQGd9KCDEiC8-uqOp_P_x9h_PKE5UJmnUHspaJAfUn6GAQ$ And we wrote an essay on the topic that I'm happy to share (forthcoming in Educational Researcher). Finally, this piece takes a relatively CHAT perspective on the topic: Segal, A., Lefstein, A. & Vedder-Weiss, D. (2018) Appropriating Protocols for the Regulation of Teacher Professional Conversations. *Teaching and Teacher Education, 70*, 215-226*.* I'm happy to share e-copies off list if anyone is interested. I look forward to hearing others' ideas, and to connecting with others who are interested in the topic (and please send the syllabus for your course). Best wishes, adam On Thu, 14 May 2020 at 05:49, ARTURO CORTEZ wrote: > Hello, colleagues. > > I hope this message finds you well. I am planning to teach a course in the > Fall entitled Teacher Learning and Critical CHAT. I am reaching out to get > a list of readings that you think would be foundational and on the cutting > edge in this domain. In particular, the course aims to introduce teacher > educators/researchers a Critical CHAT perspective as they design teacher > learning environments. A specific feature of the course is to support the > doctoral students in developing and building a theory of learning for > teachers. If you have any recommendations, especially the names of scholars > in this field, it would be much appreciated. > > Thank you so much for considering. > > Take care, > Arturo Cortez > > -- > > *Arturo Cortez, PhD* > > Assistant Professor > > Teacher Learning, Research & Practice > > > Learning Sciences & Human Development > > > School of Education | UCB 249 | Room 314 > > University of Colorado Boulder > > Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Territories > > 415.261.3155 (mobile) > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cuboulder.zoom.us/my/arturocortez__;!!Mih3wA!Q6dDFTbuVSfcCbqgzGTWAINVyQGd9KCDEiC8-uqOp_P_x9h_PKE5UJmnUHspaJCvM7vZ9w$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/education__;!!Mih3wA!Q6dDFTbuVSfcCbqgzGTWAINVyQGd9KCDEiC8-uqOp_P_x9h_PKE5UJmnUHspaJBV7EFC5A$ > > > > Sign up for office hours here > > . > -- ??? ??????? ??? ?????? Adam Lefstein ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ??????? Chair, Education Department ?????? ???? ???????? ????? ????? ?????? Laboratory for the Study of Pedagogy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200514/487526ed/attachment.html From dkirsh@lsu.edu Thu May 14 12:49:43 2020 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 19:49:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Crowdsourcing for EdInstrument Team In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Forwarding: From: (AERA SIG Research in Mathematics Education Announcement List) On Behalf Of Joseph, Nicole Michelle Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2020 2:41 PM To: AERA_SIG087-ANNOUNCE@LISTSERV.AERA.NET Subject: Crowdsourcing for EdInstrument Team Dear SIGRME Members: The following email is on behalf Heather Hill and the EdInstruments Team at the Annenberg Institute, Brown University Dear Education Research Community, Please help us crowdsource to create a resource for all of us. We are developing EdInstruments, an open-source library of education-relevant measurement tools for scholars, educators, schools, districts and the general public. To see a draft version of the site, please visit https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://edinstruments.com/__;!!Mih3wA!U8H1axT3x68rl8dYwO4gyo2LtpB6nsROp0NODMh36i9RJ7fvczGWjat0_3O_M425qoxgYw$ With your help we can populate the repository. If you have used an instrument in your research that you believe is reliable and valid for its purpose, please add it using the form on https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://edinstruments.com/suggest__;!!Mih3wA!U8H1axT3x68rl8dYwO4gyo2LtpB6nsROp0NODMh36i9RJ7fvczGWjat0_3O_M43ljqTTcg$ or through email to Maxine Offiaeli, EdInstruments Project Coordinator, at info@edinstruments.com. Please include the citation to your work and any other information you have about the instrument. The four educationally relevant domains for which we are collecting instruments include Academic Knowledge & Skills (e.g. math, English language arts...), Beyond Academic Capabilities (inter- and intra- personal skills and attitudes), Home & Community (e.g. parenting and neighborhoods), and Schooling (e.g. teaching, school processes...). For each instrument in a given domain, EdInstruments will provide an array of information such as grade level, language, price, contact information, psychometric references, and where it has appeared in peer-reviewed studies. Why do this? Too many researchers and educators struggle to find reliable, valid measures of processes and outcomes important to their work. This difficulty means researchers often create their own instruments, potentially duplicating the efforts of others and leading to inefficiencies in how we invest our resources. EdInstruments aims to address this need. First, it identifies and catalogues available instruments to help a broad audience compare and choose the appropriate tools for their needs. Second, EdInstruments aims to illuminate the holes in current measurement, thus facilitating the development of new measures necessary to understand and, in turn, improve educational opportunities for students. Currently, without a comprehensive catalog of what is available, the field lacks a collective understanding of what is and isn't being measured and what measures need to be developed. In addition to hosting EdInstruments, we will also run a series of meetings to better organize the instruments, to identify holes in our measurement coverage, and to highlight particularly promising new measures. We hope that you will be a part of those meetings as well. Thank you for helping us grow EdInstruments. Be well, Susanna and the EdInstruments Team at the Annenberg Institute, Brown University An American Educational Research Association List If you need assistance with this list, please send an email to listadmin@aera.net. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200514/07973379/attachment-0001.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Thu May 14 13:52:13 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 14:52:13 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: As of 2020, the American Century is Over In-Reply-To: References: <85fc2557-3931-47ff-12d4-267e9281a955@marxists.org> <7F106666-4E69-4606-AAB0-10EE9E7A733D@gmail.com> <255B3664-FD24-4025-9854-0B5D8EFA2962@gmail.com> <1c1c059f-f9a9-3606-ae1c-56d0626dd7e6@marxists.org> <4BF1F09B-8C62-4B6B-A573-27F80EDBF7D4@gmail.com> <6EA7437D-09DC-4B52-B00B-218E674D1B85@gmail.com> <8BB24F8E-61F8-4181-B071-CC8AB20CF0A9@cantab.net> <00195FA2-F3D5-41A8-9E42-E3AEEBD32A1D@cantab.net> <3A7B8D80-32A7-4512-BE03-B6C2B297C454@gmail.com> <44F64C4C-48BC-477C-AA43-FFC631756CDE@gmail.com> <2C198029-0CA9-4B2D-BE75-E418C7941ACD@gmail.com> <94D66C38-1426-4299-8E4E-A17948D2FAF3@cantab.net> Message-ID: <3FC1CA99-6E15-4357-825F-F7292E28E76B@gmail.com> David, It occurred to me that gender builds walls. The current state of American politics is all about gender. Donald Trump, as well as a property manager, is deeply associated with reality TV and ?professional wrestling?. The macho brand he has created is where his base is. A simplistic take on Darwin, a Trump take would be survival of the fittest. Social Darwinism. More nuanced is success in filling an ecological niche. Then there?s natural vs. sexual selection. Darwin didn?t have that figured out, in my humble and ill-informed opinion. I think it was Phillip that proposed an anthropologist in every school. It would seem an anthropologist would be in a good position, in collaboration with researchers in more ?material? fields, to weigh in on the gender wall and Trump?s base. My sense is that, despite the gains of LGBTQ and Me Too warriors in the U.S. and around the world, that Trump won, and might again, partly because of push back from people who are uncomfortable with non-stereotypical gender roles. And consider the loss of manufacturing jobs, the loss of jobs in general. Of course this is an economic, a survival issue, but it is gendered: No job, no manhood. No ecological niche available. Henry > On May 13, 2020, at 11:56 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > I think our tradition has always been incredulous of frontiers for the same reason we are skeptical about elements. It's not really "as a plus" or "interdisciplinary" or "bridges not walls". It's more, "What is this thing you are calling a wall really made of?". > > One of the first of many distortions our elementary school kids have to learn is that there is a "science" class that includes biology and chemistry but not history and civics and a "social studies" class which includes history and civics but not biology and chemistry. > > Similarly, our kids learn that there is a "morals" class that isn't the same thing as "civics" or "ethics". I would like to teach them that this is something like the difference between Korean music and Western music or Asian painting and oil painting or Chinese and Western opera. But there's a little more to it than that. > > I don't think Vygotsky would see any of these distinctions as fundamental or essential. We can place one discipline in the background in order to foreground another (for me it's always language, and for you it's always labor). But we don't forget that we're the ones who just did that. > > In Midnight's Children, the Mumbai magicians are all members of the Indian Communist Party and consequently sworn, devout materialists. They can only bend reality so long as they remember that they are real themselves. > . > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!UDIIfQ7T3n9hyrdXggci5W2O3tIz_zpkZShhu90U2ceRC8V1stJt1IqcLwk2_eE93mucWQ$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UDIIfQ7T3n9hyrdXggci5W2O3tIz_zpkZShhu90U2ceRC8V1stJt1IqcLwk2_eFwqdoblQ$ > > > On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 11:36 AM Martin Packer > wrote: > Oh for heavens sake, someone has to take a shot! > > As a psychologist, what I find new, different, and useful about cultural psychology is its proposal that human psychological functioning occurs first (phylogenetically, historically, and ontogenetically) between people, as a social process, and is mediated by cultural artifacts. > > That?s not to ignore the genetic or the biological, because the use of artifacts transforms the people who use them, biologically, neurologically, and even genetically. > > And issues of equity enter because (s)he who has the artifacts has the power(s)? > > good night :) > > Martin > > > > >> On May 13, 2020, at 12:30 PM, Helena Worthen > wrote: >> >> Great list of references, Phillip. >> >> As someone who teaches outside the school context, as compared to what I think is the majority of people on this list, I often have to push myself to justify why I feel so at home in the Vygotskian tradition (or CHAT, or socio-cultural tradition). I notice that my bookshelf looks a lot like yours. If I walked into your study and looked at your bookshelf I?d probably have a good laugh. >> >> So what do these people have in common that defines them as being part of one tradition? And compared to what? >> >> Focus on language, social interaction, paying attention to history, paying attention to context - and the assumption that international is a plus? >> >> As compared to avoiding genetics, testing, individualism, anything defined by national boundaries? >> >> On a big scale, in other words, what?s special about the sociocultural approach? Why do I recognize your list? >> >> Thanks ? H >> >> >> >> Helena Worthen >> helenaworthen.wordpress.com >> >> >> >> >>> On May 7, 2020, at 7:18 AM, White, Phillip > wrote: >>> >>> Helena & Henry - yeah, the Choudry & Williams paper re:figured worlds and power was a pleasure to read - nuanced and evocative. i was reminded of Bateson's Steps to an Ecology of Mind, in which one of his assertions is that one of the attributed of learning - change in which a difference makes a difference - stochastic. also, i think that Yuval Noah Harari's assertion in Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind, that it was with the emergence of language that as one of the five great apes groups we were able to imagine figured worlds that don't exist - what he describes as the Cognitive Revolution. >>> it was somewhere in the early 2000's that i wrote a review of Identity and Agency in Cultural Worlds for MCA. thought i had first come across Dorothy Holland's work through Margaret Eisenhart's instruction on ethnographic methods and educational research. even earlier, at a conference in the early 90's Eisenhart suggested that every school have an anthropologist as a learning/teaching resource for classroom teachers. of course, Shirley Brice Heath, as well as Kris Gutierrez, and Jose Lemon (Dancing with the Devil) are great exemplars of that, amongst too many others to mention. >>> >>> again, Helena, many thanks for the paper. >>> >>> phillip > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200514/5740e7f0/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Thu May 14 14:26:19 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 21:26:19 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Heartening news in Kerala Message-ID: Hello fellow XMCArs, I thought this might be some good news, given all the bad news: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/14/the-coronavirus-slayer-how-keralas-rock-star-health-minister-helped-save-it-from-covid-19__;!!Mih3wA!RAnIW6xakWlcpoAdSD60QoISzUuvaSLK2gt0Bz_1yF6CoLAllQJIymq_dnTmbsimDRDT9Q$ Cheers, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200514/c38e5987/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Thu May 14 16:02:21 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 17:02:21 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7CF68C44-2A31-4E98-8DE7-11FC0B8AE8E3@gmail.com> Wonderful article, Annalisa! Definitely welcome good news about good leadership inthe face of COVID-19: K.K. Shailaja, health minister of the state of Kerala in India. A woman and a member of the Communist Party there. Already a celebrity because of the way she handled an even deadlier virus in 2018. From the article in the Guardian, ?In a way she had been preparing for a similar outbreak all her life.? From what we have been reading for years from epidemiologists, COVID-19 is a dress rehearsal for even deadlier viruses. Kerala has the highest literacy rate, the highest life expectancy and the lowest infant mortality in India. Meanwhile, the Trump team is sending out surveys that allow people to get high scores on their hatred of socialism. Tooting my New Mexico horn, we have a woman governor that has shown great leadership in maintaining social distancing. However, our literacy is among the lowest in the country and push back from deniers and conspiracy theorists has been ugly. Infection rates have been disproportionately high among Native Americans, particularly Navajos and some Pueblos, though death rates of those infected are highest among whites. Henry > On May 14, 2020, at 3:26 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hello fellow XMCArs, > > I thought this might be some good news, given all the bad news: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/14/the-coronavirus-slayer-how-keralas-rock-star-health-minister-helped-save-it-from-covid-19__;!!Mih3wA!TMM7B_4iI83dwVqAd8xnGEEB_lk7jQjfLN4WoMrSqhdmiq8sp-BhWTTK5BuhrSRZM-olZg$ > > Cheers, > > Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200514/3a5cd8aa/attachment.html From helen.grimmett@monash.edu Thu May 14 16:13:28 2020 From: helen.grimmett@monash.edu (Helen Grimmett) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 09:13:28 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Learning & CHAT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFDE16C-2138-4115-84ED-81EDAF4B1568@monash.edu> Hi Arturo, Not sure if this counts as 'Critical CHAT', but my PhD research used Cultural-Historical theory to develop a theoretical explanation of the practice of teachers' professional development that you may find interesting. A revised version of my thesis was published by Sense (now Brill) https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/37721?rskey=THuTue&result=1&contents=editorial-content__;!!Mih3wA!QioiyToeWqZUr98zi0fjnm6P9T5mUad6TFrrGumUbUxCONywkl4jCi9qH9wXpT6OTQNeCw$ and may be available through your library via SpringerLink. Search for Grimmett The Practice of Teachers? Professional Development: A Cultural-Historical Approach. Alternatively, the actual thesis (complete with astonishing typo in a chapter heading that I didn't discover until revising the manuscript for the book!) is available here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bridges.monash.edu/articles/Developing_WITHIN_practice_PD_A_cultural-historical_approach_to_understanding_the_institutional_practice_of_teachers_professional_development/4664125/1__;!!Mih3wA!QioiyToeWqZUr98zi0fjnm6P9T5mUad6TFrrGumUbUxCONywkl4jCi9qH9wXpT5TD0ntpg$ The theory chapter at the beginning and the final chapter might be the most useful. Good luck with your course, Helen -- DR HELEN GRIMMETT Lecturer in Primary and Early Years Education Monash University Education Room A3.38, Peninsula campus 47-49 Moorooduc Hwy Frankston, VIC 3199 Australia T:+61 3 9904 7171 E: helen.grimmett@monash.edu monash.edu CRICOS Provider: Monash University 00008C/01857J We acknowledge and pay respects to the Elders and Traditional Owners of the land on which our four Australian campuses stand. Recent work: Heck, D., Grimmett, H., & Willis, L.-D. (2019). Teacher educators using cogenerative dialogue to reclaim professionalism. In A. Gutierrez, J. Fox, & C. Alexander (Eds.), Professionalism and teacher education: Voices from policy and practice, (pp. 137?156). Singapore: Springer. Grimmett, H., Forgasz, R., Williams, J., & White, S. (2018). Reimagining the role of mentor teachers in professional experience: moving to I as fellow teacher educator. Asia-Pacific Journal of Teacher Education, 46(4), 340-353. doi:10.1080/1359866X.2018.1437391 Williams, J., White, S., Forgasz, R., & Grimmett, H. (2018). Stories from the third space: Teacher educators? professional learning in a school/university partnership. In A. Fitzgerald, G. Parr, & J. Williams (Eds.), Re-imagining professional experience in initial teacher education: Narratives of learning (pp. 19-36). Singapore: Springer Singapore. Willis, L.-D., Grimmett, H., & Heck, D. (2018). Exploring cogenerativity in initial teacher education school-university partnerships using the methodology of metalogue. In J. Kriewaldt, A. Ambrosetti, D. Rorrison, & R. Capeness (Eds.), Educating future teachers: Innovative perspectives in professional experience (pp. 49-69). Singapore: Springer Singapore. > On 15 May 2020, at 1:26 am, Adam Lefstein wrote: > > Dear Arturo, > I wish I could enroll in your course! I'm not aware of work in the teacher learning field that self-identifies as "critical CHAT", but there are quite a few of us who are influenced by sociocultural ideas about teacher learning on the job. I recommend in particular research by Judith Warren Little, Ilana Horn, Nicole Louie, Elham Kazemi, and Peter Smagorinsky. Some colleagues and I recently published a review of 64 studies of teacher collaborative discourse, many of which adopt a roughly sociocultural approach: > Lefstein, A., Louie, N., Segal, A., & Becher, A. (2020). Taking Stock of Research on Teacher Collaborative Discourse: Theory and Method in a Nascent Field. Teaching and Teacher Education, 88. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0742051X1930527X__;!!Mih3wA!QioiyToeWqZUr98zi0fjnm6P9T5mUad6TFrrGumUbUxCONywkl4jCi9qH9wXpT5oOKmNFQ$ > And we wrote an essay on the topic that I'm happy to share (forthcoming in Educational Researcher). > Finally, this piece takes a relatively CHAT perspective on the topic: > Segal, A., Lefstein, A. & Vedder-Weiss, D. (2018) Appropriating Protocols for the Regulation of Teacher Professional Conversations. Teaching and Teacher Education, 70, 215-226. > I'm happy to share e-copies off list if anyone is interested. I look forward to hearing others' ideas, and to connecting with others who are interested in the topic (and please send the syllabus for your course). > Best wishes, > adam > > > >> On Thu, 14 May 2020 at 05:49, ARTURO CORTEZ wrote: >> Hello, colleagues. >> >> I hope this message finds you well. I am planning to teach a course in the Fall entitled Teacher Learning and Critical CHAT. I am reaching out to get a list of readings that you think would be foundational and on the cutting edge in this domain. In particular, the course aims to introduce teacher educators/researchers a Critical CHAT perspective as they design teacher learning environments. A specific feature of the course is to support the doctoral students in developing and building a theory of learning for teachers. If you have any recommendations, especially the names of scholars in this field, it would be much appreciated. >> >> Thank you so much for considering. >> >> Take care, >> Arturo Cortez >> >> -- >> Arturo Cortez, PhD >> >> Assistant Professor >> >> Teacher Learning, Research & Practice >> >> Learning Sciences & Human Development >> >> School of Education | UCB 249 | Room 314 >> >> University of Colorado Boulder >> >> Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Territories >> >> 415.261.3155 (mobile) >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cuboulder.zoom.us/my/arturocortez__;!!Mih3wA!QioiyToeWqZUr98zi0fjnm6P9T5mUad6TFrrGumUbUxCONywkl4jCi9qH9wXpT4jHrIu1Q$ >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/education__;!!Mih3wA!QioiyToeWqZUr98zi0fjnm6P9T5mUad6TFrrGumUbUxCONywkl4jCi9qH9wXpT4fzQAwiw$ >> >> >> >> Sign up for office hours here. >> > > > -- > > ??? ??????? > ??? ?????? > Adam Lefstein > ??? ?????? ?????? > ???? ??? ??????? > Chair, Education Department > ?????? ???? ???????? > ????? ????? ?????? > Laboratory for the Study of Pedagogy > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200515/223ebbe0/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu May 14 17:43:10 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 09:43:10 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala In-Reply-To: <7CF68C44-2A31-4E98-8DE7-11FC0B8AE8E3@gmail.com> References: <7CF68C44-2A31-4E98-8DE7-11FC0B8AE8E3@gmail.com> Message-ID: My mother spent a lot of time in Kerala: we lived in Chennai, or Madras as it was called then, and she was interested in Indian feminism. She wrote a book called "People Who Count" (Earthscan 1995) that argued that Kerala disproved the argument by Indian liberals that a country has to get rich first before it can afford to enfranchise women with reproductive rights and empower workers with good, preventive health care. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Stein__;!!Mih3wA!TOYLrIbIoMUPIg2I2quh69nZO2PaFth2uBAbLuBXu2ssgS0zgryeVH2qzhll7Xal5wSNZA$ Nota Bene--Countries where strong, male, right-wing populist leaders have been in charge have failed miserably (e.g. Italy, the USA, Russia, Brazil, Hungary) while countries that have women in charge, strong workers movements or powerful Communist parties (South Korea, China, New Zealand....) have succeeded in controlling the virus. (Australia is a bit of an exception, for reasons that Andy explained....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!TOYLrIbIoMUPIg2I2quh69nZO2PaFth2uBAbLuBXu2ssgS0zgryeVH2qzhll7XY0mioY5g$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TOYLrIbIoMUPIg2I2quh69nZO2PaFth2uBAbLuBXu2ssgS0zgryeVH2qzhll7XYagg5Exg$ On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 8:05 AM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Wonderful article, Annalisa! > Definitely welcome good news about good leadership inthe face of COVID-19: > K.K. Shailaja, health minister of the state of Kerala in India. A woman and > a member of the Communist Party there. Already a celebrity because of the > way she handled an even deadlier virus in 2018. From the article in the > Guardian, ?In a way she had been preparing for a similar outbreak all her > life.? From what we have been reading for years from epidemiologists, > COVID-19 is a dress rehearsal for even deadlier viruses. Kerala has the > highest literacy rate, the highest life expectancy and the lowest infant > mortality in India. Meanwhile, the Trump team is sending out surveys that > allow people to get high scores on their hatred of socialism. Tooting my > New Mexico horn, we have a woman governor that has shown great leadership > in maintaining social distancing. However, our literacy is among the lowest > in the country and push back from deniers and conspiracy theorists has been > ugly. Infection rates have been disproportionately high among Native > Americans, particularly Navajos and some Pueblos, though death rates of > those infected are highest among whites. > Henry > > > On May 14, 2020, at 3:26 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hello fellow XMCArs, > > I thought this might be some good news, given all the bad news: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/14/the-coronavirus-slayer-how-keralas-rock-star-health-minister-helped-save-it-from-covid-19__;!!Mih3wA!TOYLrIbIoMUPIg2I2quh69nZO2PaFth2uBAbLuBXu2ssgS0zgryeVH2qzhll7XbCIST4YA$ > > > Cheers, > > Annalisa > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200515/2f9b3d0e/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Thu May 14 18:10:18 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 21:10:18 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> Message-ID: Chuck, I appreciate that perspective; it makes sense and also reminds me of my first introduction to Vygotsky and his interdisciplinary ambitions. On a side note, you might enjoy this fact -- Your paper, "The Life of Genre, the Life in the Classroom" was a huge influence on me earlier in my career, and in fact I still use excerpts from it with my 8th-grade students. Recommended: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/publication/315112527_The_Life_of_Genre_the_Life_in_the_Classroom__;!!Mih3wA!R_kkzHI66qUaBrYe67FrPXQpDejfybCvkO5kVjJqIxtAp3D73udkrHId8ZRQoIsy_7fHeA$ So thanks for that. Anthony P.S. Here is one more 2-minute clip on Vygotsky and the advantages of seeing through multiple windows: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVyQvpvcyak&list=PLEK3JV1Ux_5W2ZfG2I-J7prbfDUK_dIlo&index=27&t=0s__;!!Mih3wA!R_kkzHI66qUaBrYe67FrPXQpDejfybCvkO5kVjJqIxtAp3D73udkrHId8ZRQoIv0_pL2Uw$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:41 AM Charles Bazerman < bazerman@education.ucsb.edu> wrote: > Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see > this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity > multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what > the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for > analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov > points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components > that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those > we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as > consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics > and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human > neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is > the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the > components more than others and he was acting nominally as a > psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these > components. > > I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am > talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does > not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in > motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. > > While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different > concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in > being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. > > BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social > sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication > with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This > project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. > > Chuck > ---- > ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? > ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? > Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. > The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. > History will judge. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!R_kkzHI66qUaBrYe67FrPXQpDejfybCvkO5kVjJqIxtAp3D73udkrHId8ZRQoItKv0SeeA$ > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!R_kkzHI66qUaBrYe67FrPXQpDejfybCvkO5kVjJqIxtAp3D73udkrHId8ZRQoIviFdDRiQ$ > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!R_kkzHI66qUaBrYe67FrPXQpDejfybCvkO5kVjJqIxtAp3D73udkrHId8ZRQoIuCOxRZ-Q$ > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. >> >> While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any >> value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!R_kkzHI66qUaBrYe67FrPXQpDejfybCvkO5kVjJqIxtAp3D73udkrHId8ZRQoItLScXhaA$ >> "Pros >> and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" >> >> As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not >> so sure the cons outweigh the pros here. >> >> But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could >> Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If >> so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? >> I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm >> more outsider than insider and don't really know. >> >> Thank you for any insight. >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer >> wrote: >> >>> I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. >>> >>> Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this >>> book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their >>> view it?s the best term: >>> >>> Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). *Sociocultural >>> studies of mind.* Cambridge University Press. >>> >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the >>> term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word >>> "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is >>> the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices >>> of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action >>> " >>> published by Harvard University Press in 1991. >>> >>> Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with >>> "context dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title >>> of this book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs >>> and artefacts mediating action. >>> >>> Thanks again to all >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>> >>> Andy-- >>> >>> Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!R_kkzHI66qUaBrYe67FrPXQpDejfybCvkO5kVjJqIxtAp3D73udkrHId8ZRQoIt1TETsSg$ >>> >>> Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the >>> years you'll get better granularity in the document search. >>> On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you >>> click on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. >>> >>> dk >>> >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!R_kkzHI66qUaBrYe67FrPXQpDejfybCvkO5kVjJqIxtAp3D73udkrHId8ZRQoIumWe3QTA$ >>> >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!R_kkzHI66qUaBrYe67FrPXQpDejfybCvkO5kVjJqIxtAp3D73udkrHId8ZRQoIs1gr6RfQ$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer >>> wrote: >>> >>>> The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in >>>> English is this: >>>> >>>> A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero >>>> >>>> In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press >>>> >>>> Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish >>>> use the term ?sociocultural? frequently. >>>> >>>> The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, >>>> and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study >>>> of the Mexican. >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>> >>>> That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. >>>> How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? >>>> >>>> And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work >>>> of seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, >>>> caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing >>>> higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in >>>> interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: >>>> >>>> Andy: >>>> >>>> I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, >>>> but here's what I got. >>>> >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!R_kkzHI66qUaBrYe67FrPXQpDejfybCvkO5kVjJqIxtAp3D73udkrHId8ZRQoItwMsyDTA$ >>>> " >>>> width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 >>>> frameborder=0 scrolling=no >>>> >>>> So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred >>>> to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the >>>> only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick >>>> after 1992 is Vygotsky though. >>>> >>>> Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very >>>> different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the >>>> trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. >>>> >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!R_kkzHI66qUaBrYe67FrPXQpDejfybCvkO5kVjJqIxtAp3D73udkrHId8ZRQoIumWe3QTA$ >>>> >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!R_kkzHI66qUaBrYe67FrPXQpDejfybCvkO5kVjJqIxtAp3D73udkrHId8ZRQoIs1gr6RfQ$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural >>>>> psychology" originated? >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> -- >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> >>>>> Home Page >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200514/3ec20008/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Thu May 14 18:24:01 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 11:24:01 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> Message-ID: <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. Jim Wertsch said: Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches that I was building from.? I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices of the Mind.? It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? or ?cultural-historical.? Mike Cole told me: In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: > > I should have reported progress with my question. > > Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped > me and between these two I have a very rich history of the > usage of this term and the various nuances it acquired and > shed, and Mike has put the article Martin referred to on > his academia.edu page for us all to read. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUsXHzGyPw$ > > > As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of > wisdom. Thank you. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: >> Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. >> The way I see this issue is that?Vygotskian work >> attempts?to understand human activity multi-dimensionally >> (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what the >> emergence of various parochial disciplines have >> pulled?apart for analysis of the separate dimensions).? >> The different terms that Veresov points out as contending >> are simply foregrounding those sets of components that >> are most salient to the particular analyst at that >> moment.? To those we might add other elements that >> Vygotsky was interested in such as consciousness and >> language and experience and mediation (and even economics >> and human knowledge?and education lurk in the background, >> as well as human neurodiversity as well as materialities >> of the experienced world).? That is the wonder of >> Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the >> components more than others and he was acting nominally >> as a psychologist--yet his approach allows the >> integration of all these components. >> >> I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending >> on what I am talking about, and I see activity as the >> overarching term--though this does not necessarily mean >> triangles all the time.? Rather activity is humans in >> motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external >> resources in situations. >> >> While I would like some stability in terms, right now our >> different concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And >> I am not yet?comfortable in being terminally enlisted >> into another scholar's transient saliencies. >> >> BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at >> reintegrating the social sciences in the pragmatist >> project which has at times been in communication with the >> activity theory project (see my paper "Practically >> Human").? This project also never settled on a coherent >> set of terms and stable concepts. >> >> Chuck >> ---- >> ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? >> ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? >> Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. >> The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. >> History will judge. >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUvjsFKQVA$ >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUsrvadSgQ$ >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUtpoplMdg$ >> >> >> >> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra >> > > wrote: >> >> Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, >> Andy. >> >> While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, >> 2-minute excerpt adds any value: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUt_zfvNbg$ >> ?"Pros >> and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" >> >> As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main >> point, but I'm not so sure the cons outweigh the pros >> here. >> >> But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus >> was formed -- could Vygotsky's theory (and >> methodology), in fact, be definitively defined?? If >> so, would the?benefits of doing so outweigh the >> constraints? >> I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe >> even stale, but I'm more outsider than insider and >> don't really know. >> >> Thank you for any insight. >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer >> > wrote: >> >> I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier >> than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. >> >> Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in >> the introduction to this book he, along with >> Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in >> their view it?s the best term: >> >> Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. >> (Eds.). (1995). /Sociocultural studies of mind./ >> Cambridge University Press. >> >> >> Martin >> >> >> >>> On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went >>> into the mix. Indeed, the term seems to have >>> migrated from Spanish to English and the word >>> "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it >>> seems that Jim Wertsch is the fellow who >>> triggered the explosion in "sociocultural >>> psychology" with "Voices of the mind : a >>> sociocultural approach to mediated action >>> " >>> published by Harvard University Press in 1991. >>> >>> Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely >>> associated with "context dependence," Wertsch's >>> reference to "mediated action" in the title of >>> this book makes it clear that for him "context" >>> referred to the signs and artefacts mediating >>> action. >>> >>> Thanks again to all >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>>> Andy-- >>>> >>>> Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUu3sh1qTA$ >>>> >>>> Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural >>>> psychology". If you set the years you'll get >>>> better granularity in the document search. >>>> On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some >>>> dates in blue--when you click on them, you >>>> should get a list of all the books used in the >>>> search. >>>> >>>> dk >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A >>>> manual and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUuqR2EJtg$ >>>> >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >>>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: >>>> Foundations of Pedology/" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUtI9CbIiw$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> The earliest use of the term >>>> ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in >>>> English is this: >>>> >>>> A?sociocultural psychology, by?Rogelio >>>> Diaz-Guerrero >>>> >>>> In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press >>>> >>>> Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists >>>> whose publications in Spanish use the term >>>> ?sociocultural? frequently. >>>> >>>> The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is >>>> available in Google books, >>>> and?Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but >>>> titled The psychological study of the Mexican. >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>> >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> That graph from Google shows that usage of >>>>> the term took off in 1988. How do we find >>>>> out who wrote what in 1988? >>>>> >>>>> And Google also tell us that >>>>> "Socioculturaltheory grew from the work of >>>>> seminalpsychologistLev Vygotsky, who >>>>> believed that parents, caregivers, peers, >>>>> and the culture at large were responsible >>>>> for developing higher-order functions. >>>>> According to Vygotsky, learning has its >>>>> basis in interacting with other people," >>>>> together with a reference. So that is nice. >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> >>>>> Home Page >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>>> Andy: >>>>>> >>>>>> I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably >>>>>> thought of doing this too, but here's >>>>>> what I got. >>>>>> >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUtjeYrGug$ >>>>>> " >>>>>> width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 >>>>>> marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 >>>>>> frameborder=0 scrolling=no >>>>>> >>>>>> So it all starts around 1960. At first I >>>>>> thought this probably referred to the >>>>>> Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and >>>>>> Language", but when I looked the only >>>>>> books that used the term were sports >>>>>> psychology books. The big uptick after >>>>>> 1992 is Vygotsky though. >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course, this is all English only. I am >>>>>> sure you will find very different results >>>>>> in German, where "cultural historical >>>>>> psychology" is the trend identified with >>>>>> Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism >>>>>> generally. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>>> >>>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: >>>>>> A manual and a manifesto. >>>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUuqR2EJtg$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: >>>>>> /L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ >>>>>> /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUtI9CbIiw$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy >>>>>> Blunden >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Can anyone tell me when and with whom >>>>>> the term "sociocultural psychology" >>>>>> originated? >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>> >>>>>> Home Page >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200515/85c59207/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Thu May 14 21:17:18 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 14:17:18 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> Message-ID: Mike tells me that my account is indeed "pretty muddled," so please do not quote anything from that email, and do not ascribe any of it to Mike. The chapter Mike sent around, and Jim Wertsch's book, are the places to go for reliable information. Sorry. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 15/05/2020 11:24 am, Andy Blunden wrote: > > In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to > Mike if I have garbled the long and complex story he told. > I have done my best. > > Jim Wertsch said: > > Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of > this, but I consciously started to use this in order > to bring in cultural anthropology and also to avoid > the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches > that I was building from.? I believe I started > highlighting it in my 1985 book on Vygotsky, and by > 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices of > the Mind.? It is not a term used by Soviet scholars > when talking about the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, > the terms there were ?socio-historical? or > ?cultural-historical.? > > Mike Cole told me: > > In addition to what has been said on line ... > initially, the term "sociocultural" was used as a term > of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's ideas in the > Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his > Russian followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility > to Vygotsky came to a head, apparently, in 1986 when > ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets > prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim > Wertsch, who had been on a sabbatical year, and had > been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what he > saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a > conference in Spain where a group of Spanish > Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists had > ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and > they used the term "sociocultural" for their approach, > meaning something like Vygotsky+postcolonialism. > Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted to > term, meaning to distinguish himself from the > Soviet-influence. CHAT emerged as a term a little > later in an effort to unite the followers of the > various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did > not embrace the Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian > followers and stuck with Vygotsky. CHAT includes the H > for History, because in all the various terms being > used at that time, there was no attention to the > important place of History in theory, and it was Mike > who insisted on its inclusion. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> I should have reported progress with my question. >> >> Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped >> me and between these two I have a very rich history of >> the usage of this term and the various nuances it >> acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin >> referred to on his academia.edu page for us all to read. >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!X76L88p--8UMlV02Wb3KV9TVvGaD7LEj24rX0Qq1zB0uuQEaLXYnED9Mv1bScCccZdyjFQ$ >> >> >> As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of >> wisdom. Thank you. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: >>> Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. >>> The way I see this issue is that?Vygotskian work >>> attempts?to understand human activity >>> multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying >>> to reunite what the emergence of various parochial >>> disciplines have pulled?apart for analysis of the >>> separate dimensions).? The different terms that Veresov >>> points out as contending are simply foregrounding those >>> sets of components that are most salient to the >>> particular analyst at that moment.? To those we might >>> add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such >>> as consciousness and language and experience and >>> mediation (and even economics and human knowledge?and >>> education lurk in the background, as well as human >>> neurodiversity as well as materialities of the >>> experienced world).? That is the wonder of Vygotsky, >>> even though he may have developed some of the components >>> more than others and he was acting nominally as a >>> psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of >>> all these components. >>> >>> I therefore use different conjunctions of terms >>> depending on what I am talking about, and I see activity >>> as the overarching term--though this does not >>> necessarily mean triangles all the time.? Rather >>> activity is humans in motion, mobilizing multiple >>> internal and external resources in situations. >>> >>> While I would like some stability in terms, right now >>> our different concerns and issues leave salience >>> mutable. And I am not yet?comfortable in being >>> terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient >>> saliencies. >>> >>> BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at >>> reintegrating the social sciences in the pragmatist >>> project which has at times been in communication with >>> the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically >>> Human").? This project also never settled on a coherent >>> set of terms and stable concepts. >>> >>> Chuck >>> ---- >>> ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? >>> ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? >>> Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. >>> The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. >>> History will judge. >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!X76L88p--8UMlV02Wb3KV9TVvGaD7LEj24rX0Qq1zB0uuQEaLXYnED9Mv1bScCd4g_M8mA$ >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!X76L88p--8UMlV02Wb3KV9TVvGaD7LEj24rX0Qq1zB0uuQEaLXYnED9Mv1bScCemWkLRsw$ >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!X76L88p--8UMlV02Wb3KV9TVvGaD7LEj24rX0Qq1zB0uuQEaLXYnED9Mv1bScCceFzPnKg$ >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Interesting question (and follow-ups) here.? Thanks, >>> Andy. >>> >>> While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, >>> 2-minute excerpt adds any value: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!X76L88p--8UMlV02Wb3KV9TVvGaD7LEj24rX0Qq1zB0uuQEaLXYnED9Mv1bScCcfv_xEaA$ >>> ?"Pros >>> and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" >>> >>> As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main >>> point, but I'm not so sure the cons outweigh the >>> pros here. >>> >>> But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus >>> was formed -- could Vygotsky's theory (and >>> methodology), in fact, be definitively defined?? If >>> so, would the?benefits of doing so outweigh the >>> constraints? >>> I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe >>> even stale, but I'm more outsider than insider and >>> don't really know. >>> >>> Thank you for any insight. >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer >>> > wrote: >>> >>> I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier >>> than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. >>> >>> Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in >>> the introduction to this book he, along with >>> Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in >>> their view it?s the best term: >>> >>> Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. >>> (Eds.). (1995). /Sociocultural studies of mind./ >>> Cambridge University Press. >>> >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>>> On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went >>>> into the mix. Indeed, the term seems to have >>>> migrated from Spanish to English and the word >>>> "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it >>>> seems that Jim Wertsch is the fellow who >>>> triggered the explosion in "sociocultural >>>> psychology" with "Voices of the mind : a >>>> sociocultural approach to mediated action >>>> " >>>> published by Harvard University Press in 1991. >>>> >>>> Although "sociocultural" seems to be most >>>> widely associated with "context dependence," >>>> Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the >>>> title of this book makes it clear that for him >>>> "context" referred to the signs and artefacts >>>> mediating action. >>>> >>>> Thanks again to all >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>> Andy-- >>>>> >>>>> Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!X76L88p--8UMlV02Wb3KV9TVvGaD7LEj24rX0Qq1zB0uuQEaLXYnED9Mv1bScCefpLrYDQ$ >>>>> >>>>> Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural >>>>> psychology". If you set the years you'll get >>>>> better granularity in the document search. >>>>> On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some >>>>> dates in blue--when you click on them, you >>>>> should get a list of all the books used in the >>>>> search. >>>>> >>>>> dk >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>> >>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A >>>>> manual and a manifesto. >>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!X76L88p--8UMlV02Wb3KV9TVvGaD7LEj24rX0Qq1zB0uuQEaLXYnED9Mv1bScCdtfpeCeA$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >>>>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: >>>>> Foundations of Pedology/" >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!X76L88p--8UMlV02Wb3KV9TVvGaD7LEj24rX0Qq1zB0uuQEaLXYnED9Mv1bScCcgAR7qOg$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer >>>>> >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The earliest use of the term >>>>> ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in >>>>> English is this: >>>>> >>>>> A?sociocultural psychology, by?Rogelio >>>>> Diaz-Guerrero >>>>> >>>>> In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press >>>>> >>>>> Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists >>>>> whose publications in Spanish use the term >>>>> ?sociocultural? frequently. >>>>> >>>>> The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is >>>>> available in Google books, >>>>> and?Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but >>>>> titled The psychological study of the Mexican. >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>>> >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> That graph from Google shows that usage >>>>>> of the term took off in 1988. How do we >>>>>> find out who wrote what in 1988? >>>>>> >>>>>> And Google also tell us that >>>>>> "Socioculturaltheory grew from the work >>>>>> of seminalpsychologistLev Vygotsky, who >>>>>> believed that parents, caregivers, peers, >>>>>> and the culture at large were responsible >>>>>> for developing higher-order functions. >>>>>> According to Vygotsky, learning has its >>>>>> basis in interacting with other people," >>>>>> together with a reference. So that is nice. >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>> >>>>>> Home Page >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>>>> Andy: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I did a Google N-gram on it. You >>>>>>> probably thought of doing this too, but >>>>>>> here's what I got. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!X76L88p--8UMlV02Wb3KV9TVvGaD7LEj24rX0Qq1zB0uuQEaLXYnED9Mv1bScCfWmObIuA$ >>>>>>> " >>>>>>> width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 >>>>>>> marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 >>>>>>> frameborder=0 scrolling=no >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So it all starts around 1960. At first I >>>>>>> thought this probably referred to the >>>>>>> Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and >>>>>>> Language", but when I looked the only >>>>>>> books that used the term were sports >>>>>>> psychology books. The big uptick after >>>>>>> 1992 is Vygotsky though. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course, this is all English only. I >>>>>>> am sure you will find very different >>>>>>> results in German, where "cultural >>>>>>> historical psychology" is the trend >>>>>>> identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and >>>>>>> neo-Kantianism generally. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>>>> >>>>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: >>>>>>> A manual and a manifesto. >>>>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!X76L88p--8UMlV02Wb3KV9TVvGaD7LEj24rX0Qq1zB0uuQEaLXYnED9Mv1bScCdtfpeCeA$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: >>>>>>> /L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ >>>>>>> /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!X76L88p--8UMlV02Wb3KV9TVvGaD7LEj24rX0Qq1zB0uuQEaLXYnED9Mv1bScCcgAR7qOg$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy >>>>>>> Blunden >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Can anyone tell me when and with >>>>>>> whom the term "sociocultural >>>>>>> psychology" originated? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Home Page >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200515/adf20e72/attachment.html From annalie.pistorius@smu.ac.za Thu May 14 22:54:38 2020 From: annalie.pistorius@smu.ac.za (Annalie Pistorius) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 07:54:38 +0200 (SAST) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala In-Reply-To: <7CF68C44-2A31-4E98-8DE7-11FC0B8AE8E3@gmail.com> References: <7CF68C44-2A31-4E98-8DE7-11FC0B8AE8E3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002801d62a7d$417b5a50$c4720ef0$@smu.ac.za> Yes, it shows the strength of a community-based approach that is a hands-on everyone learns everything approach practical critical method. Yeah to Shailaja?s plan to upscale teacher training to health care of patients. Annalie From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Friday, 15 May 2020 1:02 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Wonderful article, Annalisa! Definitely welcome good news about good leadership inthe face of COVID-19: K.K. Shailaja, health minister of the state of Kerala in India. A woman and a member of the Communist Party there. Already a celebrity because of the way she handled an even deadlier virus in 2018. From the article in the Guardian, ?In a way she had been preparing for a similar outbreak all her life.? From what we have been reading for years from epidemiologists, COVID-19 is a dress rehearsal for even deadlier viruses. Kerala has the highest literacy rate, the highest life expectancy and the lowest infant mortality in India. Meanwhile, the Trump team is sending out surveys that allow people to get high scores on their hatred of socialism. Tooting my New Mexico horn, we have a woman governor that has shown great leadership in maintaining social distancing. However, our literacy is among the lowest in the country and push back from deniers and conspiracy theorists has been ugly. Infection rates have been disproportionately high among Native Americans, particularly Navajos and some Pueblos, though death rates of those infected are highest among whites. Henry On May 14, 2020, at 3:26 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello fellow XMCArs, I thought this might be some good news, given all the bad news: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/14/the-coronavirus-slayer-how-keralas-rock-star-health-minister-helped-save-it-from-covid-19__;!!Mih3wA!Uw8jHaV45SSbbGW76WA-4EKsPAy1AEz9V2-RFmqea7I9kxpxeP8SxgqzsvdwO7vtVkRKZg$ Cheers, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200515/dafea679/attachment.html From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Fri May 15 08:48:41 2020 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 09:48:41 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> Message-ID: Mike, Just wondering if you ever heard of Pitirim Alexandrovich Sorokin's (Sociology, Harvard) use of "sociocultural" pre-WWII? Any recollections? -greg (and in case anyone is interested in this Russian-born interdisciplinary sociologist who became the first head of the Sociology Department at Harvard (and used the term "sociocultural" in 1937): https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.suz.uzh.ch/dam/jcr:00000000-36d7-41d4-0000-000064b51e55/simpson_sorokin.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!U61xaS5eaEzj6VgLnz4h-ztQI9N-VIYPZ07rO-sJS8EAcChzCPy4ZTOn5wFGL0Q_oG9nrg$ ) On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:20 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > Mike tells me that my account is indeed "pretty muddled," so please do not > quote anything from that email, and do not ascribe any of it to Mike. The > chapter Mike sent around, and Jim Wertsch's book, are the places to go for > reliable information. > > Sorry. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 15/05/2020 11:24 am, Andy Blunden wrote: > > In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have > garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. > > Jim Wertsch said: > > Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I > consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology > and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches > that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 > book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices > of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about > the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? > or ?cultural-historical.? > > Mike Cole told me: > > In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term > "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's > ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian > followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, > apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets > prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a > sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what > he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in > Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists > had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term > "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like > Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted > to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT > emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the > various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the > Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. > CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being > used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History > in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: > > I should have reported progress with my question. > > Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between > these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the > various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin > referred to on his academia.edu page for us all to read. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!U61xaS5eaEzj6VgLnz4h-ztQI9N-VIYPZ07rO-sJS8EAcChzCPy4ZTOn5wFGL0SfusWTOQ$ > > > As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: > > Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see > this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity > multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what > the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for > analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov > points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components > that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those > we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as > consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics > and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human > neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is > the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the > components more than others and he was acting nominally as a > psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these > components. > > I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am > talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does > not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in > motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. > > While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different > concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in > being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. > > BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social > sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication > with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This > project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. > > Chuck > ---- > ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? > ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? > Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. > The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. > History will judge. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!U61xaS5eaEzj6VgLnz4h-ztQI9N-VIYPZ07rO-sJS8EAcChzCPy4ZTOn5wFGL0TDK9Pzlw$ > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!U61xaS5eaEzj6VgLnz4h-ztQI9N-VIYPZ07rO-sJS8EAcChzCPy4ZTOn5wFGL0S9AR-iNA$ > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!U61xaS5eaEzj6VgLnz4h-ztQI9N-VIYPZ07rO-sJS8EAcChzCPy4ZTOn5wFGL0R8liM8SQ$ > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. >> >> While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any >> value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!U61xaS5eaEzj6VgLnz4h-ztQI9N-VIYPZ07rO-sJS8EAcChzCPy4ZTOn5wFGL0RgNRRmjw$ >> "Pros >> and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" >> >> As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not >> so sure the cons outweigh the pros here. >> >> But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could >> Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If >> so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? >> I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm >> more outsider than insider and don't really know. >> >> Thank you for any insight. >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer >> wrote: >> >>> I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, >>> Andy. >>> >>> Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this >>> book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their >>> view it?s the best term: >>> >>> Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). *Sociocultural >>> studies of mind.* Cambridge University Press. >>> >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the >>> term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word >>> "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is >>> the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices >>> of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action >>> " >>> published by Harvard University Press in 1991. >>> >>> Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with >>> "context dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title >>> of this book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs >>> and artefacts mediating action. >>> >>> Thanks again to all >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>> >>> Andy-- >>> >>> Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!U61xaS5eaEzj6VgLnz4h-ztQI9N-VIYPZ07rO-sJS8EAcChzCPy4ZTOn5wFGL0QLtr34Tw$ >>> >>> Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the >>> years you'll get better granularity in the document search. >>> On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you >>> click on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. >>> >>> dk >>> >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!U61xaS5eaEzj6VgLnz4h-ztQI9N-VIYPZ07rO-sJS8EAcChzCPy4ZTOn5wFGL0SZA_pZSw$ >>> >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!U61xaS5eaEzj6VgLnz4h-ztQI9N-VIYPZ07rO-sJS8EAcChzCPy4ZTOn5wFGL0R5MA8yvw$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer >>> wrote: >>> >>>> The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in >>>> English is this: >>>> >>>> A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero >>>> >>>> In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press >>>> >>>> Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish >>>> use the term ?sociocultural? frequently. >>>> >>>> The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, >>>> and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study >>>> of the Mexican. >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>> >>>> That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. >>>> How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? >>>> >>>> And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work >>>> of seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, >>>> caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing >>>> higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in >>>> interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: >>>> >>>> Andy: >>>> >>>> I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, >>>> but here's what I got. >>>> >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!U61xaS5eaEzj6VgLnz4h-ztQI9N-VIYPZ07rO-sJS8EAcChzCPy4ZTOn5wFGL0S9O2l8pA$ >>>> " >>>> width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 >>>> frameborder=0 scrolling=no >>>> >>>> So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred >>>> to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the >>>> only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick >>>> after 1992 is Vygotsky though. >>>> >>>> Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very >>>> different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the >>>> trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. >>>> >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!U61xaS5eaEzj6VgLnz4h-ztQI9N-VIYPZ07rO-sJS8EAcChzCPy4ZTOn5wFGL0SZA_pZSw$ >>>> >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!U61xaS5eaEzj6VgLnz4h-ztQI9N-VIYPZ07rO-sJS8EAcChzCPy4ZTOn5wFGL0R5MA8yvw$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural >>>>> psychology" originated? >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> -- >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> >>>>> Home Page >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!U61xaS5eaEzj6VgLnz4h-ztQI9N-VIYPZ07rO-sJS8EAcChzCPy4ZTOn5wFGL0TXoqYp6Q$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!U61xaS5eaEzj6VgLnz4h-ztQI9N-VIYPZ07rO-sJS8EAcChzCPy4ZTOn5wFGL0RABEp9JQ$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200515/edd0c671/attachment.html From d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk Fri May 15 09:18:12 2020 From: d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk (WEBSTER, DAVID S.) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 16:18:12 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> , Message-ID: Sorokin was also Prime Minister Kerensky's (Feb revolution) private secretary. After the October revolution he got involved in a bit of hapless counter-revolutionary activity and was condemned to the firing squad. Through the intervention of Lenin, Sorokin was offered a deal, as a prominent liberal figure. If he renounced, in an open published letter, his opposition to the Bolsheviks and made no further attacks, then he could take up his position as a sociologist at Moscow University. Lenin's logic was that Sorokin gave up his opposition, this would make it easier for other of the liberal/professionals to do likewise. Needless to say Sorokin kept up his criticism of the Bolsheviks but no action was taken against him. However when Lenin suffered a stroke and was in a coma, Sorokin, wisely, took himself and family off to America. ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Greg Thompson Sent: 15 May 2020 15:48 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? Mike, Just wondering if you ever heard of Pitirim Alexandrovich Sorokin's (Sociology, Harvard) use of "sociocultural" pre-WWII? Any recollections? -greg (and in case anyone is interested in this Russian-born interdisciplinary sociologist who became the first head of the Sociology Department at Harvard (and used the term "sociocultural" in 1937): https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.suz.uzh.ch/dam/jcr:00000000-36d7-41d4-0000-000064b51e55/simpson_sorokin.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!Ry7F3NkBIM-6THFuSq3VzoYg9xNMHUkRxBCcIy53h-1tLqAzh1edLo6vNagCf6g1PyUtyA$ ) On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:20 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Mike tells me that my account is indeed "pretty muddled," so please do not quote anything from that email, and do not ascribe any of it to Mike. The chapter Mike sent around, and Jim Wertsch's book, are the places to go for reliable information. Sorry. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 15/05/2020 11:24 am, Andy Blunden wrote: In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. Jim Wertsch said: Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? or ?cultural-historical.? Mike Cole told me: In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: I should have reported progress with my question. Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin referred to on his academia.edu page for us all to read. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!Ry7F3NkBIM-6THFuSq3VzoYg9xNMHUkRxBCcIy53h-1tLqAzh1edLo6vNagCf6hNKyFixA$ As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the components more than others and he was acting nominally as a psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these components. I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. Chuck ---- ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. History will judge. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!Ry7F3NkBIM-6THFuSq3VzoYg9xNMHUkRxBCcIy53h-1tLqAzh1edLo6vNagCf6h2Zr8zDQ$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!Ry7F3NkBIM-6THFuSq3VzoYg9xNMHUkRxBCcIy53h-1tLqAzh1edLo6vNagCf6iGSVaSuQ$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!Ry7F3NkBIM-6THFuSq3VzoYg9xNMHUkRxBCcIy53h-1tLqAzh1edLo6vNagCf6jGuUiSpA$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!Ry7F3NkBIM-6THFuSq3VzoYg9xNMHUkRxBCcIy53h-1tLqAzh1edLo6vNagCf6gkOiui1A$ "Pros and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so sure the cons outweigh the pros here. But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm more outsider than insider and don't really know. Thank you for any insight. Anthony On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer > wrote: I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their view it?s the best term: Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). Sociocultural studies of mind. Cambridge University Press. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action" published by Harvard University Press in 1991. Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and artefacts mediating action. Thanks again to all Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: Andy-- Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!Ry7F3NkBIM-6THFuSq3VzoYg9xNMHUkRxBCcIy53h-1tLqAzh1edLo6vNagCf6iKm-J2Gg$ Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the years you'll get better granularity in the document search. On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. dk David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!Ry7F3NkBIM-6THFuSq3VzoYg9xNMHUkRxBCcIy53h-1tLqAzh1edLo6vNagCf6gU-VMA-Q$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Ry7F3NkBIM-6THFuSq3VzoYg9xNMHUkRxBCcIy53h-1tLqAzh1edLo6vNagCf6gopnf0mw$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer > wrote: The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in English is this: A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use the term ?sociocultural? frequently. The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study of the Mexican. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: Andy: I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but here's what I got. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!Ry7F3NkBIM-6THFuSq3VzoYg9xNMHUkRxBCcIy53h-1tLqAzh1edLo6vNagCf6hcD2BhOQ$ " width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 frameborder=0 scrolling=no So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after 1992 is Vygotsky though. Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!Ry7F3NkBIM-6THFuSq3VzoYg9xNMHUkRxBCcIy53h-1tLqAzh1edLo6vNagCf6gU-VMA-Q$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Ry7F3NkBIM-6THFuSq3VzoYg9xNMHUkRxBCcIy53h-1tLqAzh1edLo6vNagCf6gopnf0mw$ On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" originated? Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!Ry7F3NkBIM-6THFuSq3VzoYg9xNMHUkRxBCcIy53h-1tLqAzh1edLo6vNagCf6hB6oBZ7w$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!Ry7F3NkBIM-6THFuSq3VzoYg9xNMHUkRxBCcIy53h-1tLqAzh1edLo6vNagCf6hqL3nylA$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200515/17f8fc10/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri May 15 09:39:15 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 10:39:15 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala In-Reply-To: <002801d62a7d$417b5a50$c4720ef0$@smu.ac.za> References: <7CF68C44-2A31-4E98-8DE7-11FC0B8AE8E3@gmail.com> <002801d62a7d$417b5a50$c4720ef0$@smu.ac.za> Message-ID: <23CB0D56-30A3-497F-AF5F-4E4F65721AD7@gmail.com> Hi AnnaLIE, I apologize for getting your name wrong. There is someone who engages with the chat by the name of Annalie, and I thought it was she who had sent the link to the Guardian artilcle on Shailaja. Usually Annalisa writes very long posts, so I was pleasantly surprised by the brevity of the post. Ha! Henry > On May 14, 2020, at 11:54 PM, Annalie Pistorius wrote: > > Yes, it shows the strength of a community-based approach that is a hands-on everyone learns everything approach practical critical method. Yeah to Shailaja?s plan to upscale teacher training to health care of patients. > Annalie > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD > Sent: Friday, 15 May 2020 1:02 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala > > Wonderful article, Annalisa! > Definitely welcome good news about good leadership inthe face of COVID-19: K.K. Shailaja, health minister of the state of Kerala in India. A woman and a member of the Communist Party there. Already a celebrity because of the way she handled an even deadlier virus in 2018. From the article in the Guardian, ?In a way she had been preparing for a similar outbreak all her life.? From what we have been reading for years from epidemiologists, COVID-19 is a dress rehearsal for even deadlier viruses. Kerala has the highest literacy rate, the highest life expectancy and the lowest infant mortality in India. Meanwhile, the Trump team is sending out surveys that allow people to get high scores on their hatred of socialism. Tooting my New Mexico horn, we have a woman governor that has shown great leadership in maintaining social distancing. However, our literacy is among the lowest in the country and push back from deniers and conspiracy theorists has been ugly. Infection rates have been disproportionately high among Native Americans, particularly Navajos and some Pueblos, though death rates of those infected are highest among whites. > Henry > > > >> On May 14, 2020, at 3:26 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >> >> Hello fellow XMCArs, >> >> I thought this might be some good news, given all the bad news: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/14/the-coronavirus-slayer-how-keralas-rock-star-health-minister-helped-save-it-from-covid-19__;!!Mih3wA!Rqndk0uB1TbD8kVEcjaE--Tp-XYV5tXBlIPJqoJSHW2lgzzHU7dsrofiHNs71dFitzYlcQ$ >> >> Cheers, >> >> Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200515/586eedff/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri May 15 10:33:28 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 10:33:28 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> Message-ID: Greg et al- Excuse the miscommunication. I am a tad overstuffed with input these days. Jim Wertsch's summary highlights the main point -- that the *contemporary * use of *sociocultural* began with Jim's visit to Madrid in the mid-1980's. There he worked with colleagues who who objected to the social evolutionism of Marxist theory and particularly, the way it was deployed by the USSR. The issue remains: Vygotsky makes a distinction between learning and development that is central to the theory. No theory of development, no zopeD. No historical *development *with its characterizations of more and less developed, its proclivity to interpret differences as deficits. Etc. This has been a core issue in discussions of xlchc/xmca for about forty years and it is not likely to go away any time soon. Its a hot button issue that causes people to denigrate each other in public. The article I wrote for the collection of essays reflects my thoughts on the naming issue at the time. Back in that day the Russian translations we had contained all sort of names and a lot of us wrestled with understanding their implications. mike On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 8:50 AM Greg Thompson wrote: > Mike, > Just wondering if you ever heard of Pitirim Alexandrovich Sorokin's > (Sociology, Harvard) use of "sociocultural" pre-WWII? > Any recollections? > -greg > (and in case anyone is interested in this Russian-born interdisciplinary > sociologist who became the first head of the Sociology Department at > Harvard (and used the term "sociocultural" in 1937): > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.suz.uzh.ch/dam/jcr:00000000-36d7-41d4-0000-000064b51e55/simpson_sorokin.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!WlxejF0kS7OwA8-8sfet_1VC6-31UiYRA77i9wxd2XuVYF-BvYGPLz8KjYhTAfIEHLHJ9A$ > > ) > > On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:20 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Mike tells me that my account is indeed "pretty muddled," so please do >> not quote anything from that email, and do not ascribe any of it to Mike. >> The chapter Mike sent around, and Jim Wertsch's book, are the places to go >> for reliable information. >> >> Sorry. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 15/05/2020 11:24 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have >> garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. >> >> Jim Wertsch said: >> >> Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I >> consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology >> and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches >> that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 >> book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices >> of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about >> the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? >> or ?cultural-historical.? >> >> Mike Cole told me: >> >> In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term >> "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's >> ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian >> followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, >> apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets >> prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a >> sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what >> he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in >> Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists >> had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term >> "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like >> Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted >> to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT >> emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the >> various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the >> Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. >> CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being >> used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History >> in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> I should have reported progress with my question. >> >> Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between >> these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the >> various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin >> referred to on his academia.edu >> >> page for us all to read. >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!WlxejF0kS7OwA8-8sfet_1VC6-31UiYRA77i9wxd2XuVYF-BvYGPLz8KjYhTAfIMvmDDAA$ >> >> >> As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: >> >> Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see >> this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity >> multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what >> the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for >> analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov >> points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components >> that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those >> we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as >> consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics >> and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human >> neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is >> the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the >> components more than others and he was acting nominally as a >> psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these >> components. >> >> I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am >> talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does >> not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in >> motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. >> >> While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different >> concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in >> being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. >> >> BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social >> sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication >> with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This >> project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. >> >> Chuck >> ---- >> ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? >> ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? >> Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. >> The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. >> History will judge. >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!WlxejF0kS7OwA8-8sfet_1VC6-31UiYRA77i9wxd2XuVYF-BvYGPLz8KjYhTAfLIm_NUqg$ >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!WlxejF0kS7OwA8-8sfet_1VC6-31UiYRA77i9wxd2XuVYF-BvYGPLz8KjYhTAfJ08GY3Qw$ >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!WlxejF0kS7OwA8-8sfet_1VC6-31UiYRA77i9wxd2XuVYF-BvYGPLz8KjYhTAfJ6II9ZCw$ >> >> >> >> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >>> Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. >>> >>> While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds >>> any value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!WlxejF0kS7OwA8-8sfet_1VC6-31UiYRA77i9wxd2XuVYF-BvYGPLz8KjYhTAfIma5pCgA$ >>> "Pros >>> and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" >>> >>> As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not >>> so sure the cons outweigh the pros here. >>> >>> But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could >>> Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If >>> so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? >>> I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm >>> more outsider than insider and don't really know. >>> >>> Thank you for any insight. >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, >>>> Andy. >>>> >>>> Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to >>>> this book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in >>>> their view it?s the best term: >>>> >>>> Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). *Sociocultural >>>> studies of mind.* Cambridge University Press. >>>> >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, >>>> the term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word >>>> "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is >>>> the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices >>>> of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action >>>> " >>>> published by Harvard University Press in 1991. >>>> >>>> Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with >>>> "context dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title >>>> of this book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs >>>> and artefacts mediating action. >>>> >>>> Thanks again to all >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>>> >>>> Andy-- >>>> >>>> Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!WlxejF0kS7OwA8-8sfet_1VC6-31UiYRA77i9wxd2XuVYF-BvYGPLz8KjYhTAfIpjyZriw$ >>>> >>>> Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the >>>> years you'll get better granularity in the document search. >>>> On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you >>>> click on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. >>>> >>>> dk >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!WlxejF0kS7OwA8-8sfet_1VC6-31UiYRA77i9wxd2XuVYF-BvYGPLz8KjYhTAfK4g6GcdQ$ >>>> >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WlxejF0kS7OwA8-8sfet_1VC6-31UiYRA77i9wxd2XuVYF-BvYGPLz8KjYhTAfLO7uZzFg$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in >>>>> English is this: >>>>> >>>>> A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero >>>>> >>>>> In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press >>>>> >>>>> Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish >>>>> use the term ?sociocultural? frequently. >>>>> >>>>> The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, >>>>> and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study >>>>> of the Mexican. >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>>> >>>>> That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. >>>>> How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? >>>>> >>>>> And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work >>>>> of seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, >>>>> caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing >>>>> higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in >>>>> interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> >>>>> Home Page >>>>> >>>>> On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Andy: >>>>> >>>>> I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, >>>>> but here's what I got. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!WlxejF0kS7OwA8-8sfet_1VC6-31UiYRA77i9wxd2XuVYF-BvYGPLz8KjYhTAfKOZC2ZVg$ >>>>> " >>>>> width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 >>>>> frameborder=0 scrolling=no >>>>> >>>>> So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably >>>>> referred to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I >>>>> looked the only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The >>>>> big uptick after 1992 is Vygotsky though. >>>>> >>>>> Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very >>>>> different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the >>>>> trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>> >>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!WlxejF0kS7OwA8-8sfet_1VC6-31UiYRA77i9wxd2XuVYF-BvYGPLz8KjYhTAfK4g6GcdQ$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WlxejF0kS7OwA8-8sfet_1VC6-31UiYRA77i9wxd2XuVYF-BvYGPLz8KjYhTAfLO7uZzFg$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural >>>>>> psychology" originated? >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> -- >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>> >>>>>> Home Page >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!WlxejF0kS7OwA8-8sfet_1VC6-31UiYRA77i9wxd2XuVYF-BvYGPLz8KjYhTAfJJ7C2InQ$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!WlxejF0kS7OwA8-8sfet_1VC6-31UiYRA77i9wxd2XuVYF-BvYGPLz8KjYhTAfLS0jUEhQ$ > > -- ?It is education which should play the central role in the transformation of man - this road of conscious social formation of new generations, the basic form to alter the historical human type. *New generations and new forms of their education represent the main route which history will follow whilst creating the new type of man. * Vygotsky (1932?; 1994, p.81). --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For archival materials and a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200515/3a7efd9c/attachment.html From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Fri May 15 10:42:35 2020 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 11:42:35 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> Message-ID: Fantastic, thanks Mike and DavidW for the richness of context (both explicit and hinted at)! -greg On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 11:36 AM mike cole wrote: > Greg et al- > > Excuse the miscommunication. I am a tad overstuffed with input these days. > Jim Wertsch's summary highlights the main point -- that the > *contemporary * use of *sociocultural* > began with Jim's visit to Madrid in the mid-1980's. There he worked with > colleagues who who objected > to the social evolutionism of Marxist theory and particularly, the way it > was deployed by the USSR. > > The issue remains: Vygotsky makes a distinction between learning and > development that is central to the theory. > No theory of development, no zopeD. No historical *development *with its > characterizations of more and less developed, > its proclivity to interpret differences as deficits. Etc. > > This has been a core issue in discussions of xlchc/xmca for about > forty years and it is not likely to go away any time > soon. Its a hot button issue that causes people to denigrate each other in > public. > > The article I wrote for the collection of essays reflects my thoughts on > the naming issue at the time. Back in that day > the Russian translations we had contained all sort of names and a lot of > us wrestled with understanding their implications. > > mike > > > > > > On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 8:50 AM Greg Thompson > wrote: > >> Mike, >> Just wondering if you ever heard of Pitirim Alexandrovich Sorokin's >> (Sociology, Harvard) use of "sociocultural" pre-WWII? >> Any recollections? >> -greg >> (and in case anyone is interested in this Russian-born interdisciplinary >> sociologist who became the first head of the Sociology Department at >> Harvard (and used the term "sociocultural" in 1937): >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.suz.uzh.ch/dam/jcr:00000000-36d7-41d4-0000-000064b51e55/simpson_sorokin.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!QIgs5YLBLl809gcFB1ZVpgBuGI7-85hfGRCi0WEmmgQQlXh0Q_Uakoid8_dg4lOcAYFUuw$ >> >> ) >> >> On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:20 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> Mike tells me that my account is indeed "pretty muddled," so please do >>> not quote anything from that email, and do not ascribe any of it to Mike. >>> The chapter Mike sent around, and Jim Wertsch's book, are the places to go >>> for reliable information. >>> >>> Sorry. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 15/05/2020 11:24 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have >>> garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. >>> >>> Jim Wertsch said: >>> >>> Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I >>> consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology >>> and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches >>> that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 >>> book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices >>> of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about >>> the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? >>> or ?cultural-historical.? >>> >>> Mike Cole told me: >>> >>> In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term >>> "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's >>> ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian >>> followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, >>> apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets >>> prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a >>> sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what >>> he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in >>> Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists >>> had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term >>> "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like >>> Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted >>> to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT >>> emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the >>> various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the >>> Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. >>> CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being >>> used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History >>> in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> I should have reported progress with my question. >>> >>> Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between >>> these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the >>> various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin >>> referred to on his academia.edu >>> >>> page for us all to read. >>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!QIgs5YLBLl809gcFB1ZVpgBuGI7-85hfGRCi0WEmmgQQlXh0Q_Uakoid8_dg4lP4S9iuzQ$ >>> >>> >>> As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: >>> >>> Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see >>> this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity >>> multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what >>> the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for >>> analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov >>> points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components >>> that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those >>> we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as >>> consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics >>> and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human >>> neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is >>> the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the >>> components more than others and he was acting nominally as a >>> psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these >>> components. >>> >>> I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am >>> talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does >>> not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in >>> motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. >>> >>> While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different >>> concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in >>> being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. >>> >>> BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social >>> sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication >>> with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This >>> project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. >>> >>> Chuck >>> ---- >>> ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? >>> ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? >>> Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. >>> The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. >>> History will judge. >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!QIgs5YLBLl809gcFB1ZVpgBuGI7-85hfGRCi0WEmmgQQlXh0Q_Uakoid8_dg4lPvcDo2Sw$ >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!QIgs5YLBLl809gcFB1ZVpgBuGI7-85hfGRCi0WEmmgQQlXh0Q_Uakoid8_dg4lP9rU8-kA$ >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!QIgs5YLBLl809gcFB1ZVpgBuGI7-85hfGRCi0WEmmgQQlXh0Q_Uakoid8_dg4lP7pFYOIw$ >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. >>>> >>>> While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds >>>> any value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!QIgs5YLBLl809gcFB1ZVpgBuGI7-85hfGRCi0WEmmgQQlXh0Q_Uakoid8_dg4lN6i7O1Bw$ >>>> "Pros >>>> and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" >>>> >>>> As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not >>>> so sure the cons outweigh the pros here. >>>> >>>> But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could >>>> Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If >>>> so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? >>>> I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm >>>> more outsider than insider and don't really know. >>>> >>>> Thank you for any insight. >>>> >>>> Anthony >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, >>>>> Andy. >>>>> >>>>> Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to >>>>> this book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in >>>>> their view it?s the best term: >>>>> >>>>> Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). *Sociocultural >>>>> studies of mind.* Cambridge University Press. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, >>>>> the term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word >>>>> "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is >>>>> the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices >>>>> of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action >>>>> " >>>>> published by Harvard University Press in 1991. >>>>> >>>>> Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with >>>>> "context dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title >>>>> of this book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs >>>>> and artefacts mediating action. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks again to all >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> >>>>> Home Page >>>>> >>>>> On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Andy-- >>>>> >>>>> Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!QIgs5YLBLl809gcFB1ZVpgBuGI7-85hfGRCi0WEmmgQQlXh0Q_Uakoid8_dg4lMCPKHzuA$ >>>>> >>>>> Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the >>>>> years you'll get better granularity in the document search. >>>>> On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you >>>>> click on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. >>>>> >>>>> dk >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>> >>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!QIgs5YLBLl809gcFB1ZVpgBuGI7-85hfGRCi0WEmmgQQlXh0Q_Uakoid8_dg4lMAAw0UhQ$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QIgs5YLBLl809gcFB1ZVpgBuGI7-85hfGRCi0WEmmgQQlXh0Q_Uakoid8_dg4lPUeyNMiw$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find >>>>>> in English is this: >>>>>> >>>>>> A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero >>>>>> >>>>>> In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press >>>>>> >>>>>> Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish >>>>>> use the term ?sociocultural? frequently. >>>>>> >>>>>> The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, >>>>>> and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study >>>>>> of the Mexican. >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. >>>>>> How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? >>>>>> >>>>>> And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the >>>>>> work of seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that >>>>>> parents, caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for >>>>>> developing higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its >>>>>> basis in interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that >>>>>> is nice. >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>> >>>>>> Home Page >>>>>> >>>>>> On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy: >>>>>> >>>>>> I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, >>>>>> but here's what I got. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!QIgs5YLBLl809gcFB1ZVpgBuGI7-85hfGRCi0WEmmgQQlXh0Q_Uakoid8_dg4lNneO_kNg$ >>>>>> " >>>>>> width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 >>>>>> frameborder=0 scrolling=no >>>>>> >>>>>> So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably >>>>>> referred to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I >>>>>> looked the only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The >>>>>> big uptick after 1992 is Vygotsky though. >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very >>>>>> different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the >>>>>> trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>>> >>>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!QIgs5YLBLl809gcFB1ZVpgBuGI7-85hfGRCi0WEmmgQQlXh0Q_Uakoid8_dg4lMAAw0UhQ$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QIgs5YLBLl809gcFB1ZVpgBuGI7-85hfGRCi0WEmmgQQlXh0Q_Uakoid8_dg4lPUeyNMiw$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural >>>>>>> psychology" originated? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Home Page >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!QIgs5YLBLl809gcFB1ZVpgBuGI7-85hfGRCi0WEmmgQQlXh0Q_Uakoid8_dg4lO97vFxmA$ >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!QIgs5YLBLl809gcFB1ZVpgBuGI7-85hfGRCi0WEmmgQQlXh0Q_Uakoid8_dg4lOz1L37aA$ >> >> > > > -- > > ?It is education which should play the central role in the transformation > of man - this road of conscious social formation of new generations, the > basic form to alter the historical human type. *New generations and new > forms of their education represent the main route which history will follow > whilst creating the new type of man. * Vygotsky (1932?; 1994, p.81). > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other > members of LCHC, visit > lchc.ucsd.edu. For archival materials and a narrative history of the > research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!QIgs5YLBLl809gcFB1ZVpgBuGI7-85hfGRCi0WEmmgQQlXh0Q_Uakoid8_dg4lO97vFxmA$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!QIgs5YLBLl809gcFB1ZVpgBuGI7-85hfGRCi0WEmmgQQlXh0Q_Uakoid8_dg4lOz1L37aA$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200515/3e3242eb/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Fri May 15 11:01:14 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 18:01:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala In-Reply-To: <23CB0D56-30A3-497F-AF5F-4E4F65721AD7@gmail.com> References: <7CF68C44-2A31-4E98-8DE7-11FC0B8AE8E3@gmail.com> <002801d62a7d$417b5a50$c4720ef0$@smu.ac.za>, <23CB0D56-30A3-497F-AF5F-4E4F65721AD7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello Henry, It was me that sent the link regarding Kerala. And you did spell my name correctly. There is also an Annalie on the list (not moi). I found also this link in the NYT about a similar topic: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/15/world/coronavirus-women-leaders.html__;!!Mih3wA!RVgtw0w2ZOq3fsyG7Dt1MBsTOJUS_Qh1F4vKZSs-hTPaW9RthH6agfaPftMo_9ot3xGzQw$ I will contemplate brown M&M's as well (read on into the next article below the above one). One Indian goddess whom I've always admired is Durga, the protective-mother incarnation of Kali the consort of Shiva. I feel as a world we could use the influence of Durga as a model to be our better selves, caring and protective is a preventative measure not a reactive one. To nourish is to become strong. What have you done to be nourishing today? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 10:39 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Hi AnnaLIE, I apologize for getting your name wrong. There is someone who engages with the chat by the name of Annalie, and I thought it was she who had sent the link to the Guardian artilcle on Shailaja. Usually Annalisa writes very long posts, so I was pleasantly surprised by the brevity of the post. Ha! Henry On May 14, 2020, at 11:54 PM, Annalie Pistorius > wrote: Yes, it shows the strength of a community-based approach that is a hands-on everyone learns everything approach practical critical method. Yeah to Shailaja?s plan to upscale teacher training to health care of patients. Annalie From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Friday, 15 May 2020 1:02 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Wonderful article, Annalisa! Definitely welcome good news about good leadership inthe face of COVID-19: K.K. Shailaja, health minister of the state of Kerala in India. A woman and a member of the Communist Party there. Already a celebrity because of the way she handled an even deadlier virus in 2018. From the article in the Guardian, ?In a way she had been preparing for a similar outbreak all her life.? From what we have been reading for years from epidemiologists, COVID-19 is a dress rehearsal for even deadlier viruses. Kerala has the highest literacy rate, the highest life expectancy and the lowest infant mortality in India. Meanwhile, the Trump team is sending out surveys that allow people to get high scores on their hatred of socialism. Tooting my New Mexico horn, we have a woman governor that has shown great leadership in maintaining social distancing. However, our literacy is among the lowest in the country and push back from deniers and conspiracy theorists has been ugly. Infection rates have been disproportionately high among Native Americans, particularly Navajos and some Pueblos, though death rates of those infected are highest among whites. Henry On May 14, 2020, at 3:26 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello fellow XMCArs, I thought this might be some good news, given all the bad news: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/14/the-coronavirus-slayer-how-keralas-rock-star-health-minister-helped-save-it-from-covid-19__;!!Mih3wA!RVgtw0w2ZOq3fsyG7Dt1MBsTOJUS_Qh1F4vKZSs-hTPaW9RthH6agfaPftMo_9oK95kcOA$ Cheers, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200515/f3dd3cfa/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Fri May 15 11:18:42 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 18:18:42 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> , <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> Message-ID: Andy, et al, I sort of came to this a little late in the thread, but I can offer that Vera John-Steiner didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian theory, but as I learn more about the word (thank you Mike), I can see how once a word is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard for the association to be broken. I think it's that way with words all the time coming and going out of favor, or meanings shifting, like the game of telephone, but across generations and cultures. Might I contribute to the discussion by asking whether the use of "sociocultural" was also a means of making the theories more available in the West (at least in the US). It seems there was redscare (you are welcome read the double entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as you like) prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the Marxist "brand" to access the actual theories on child development? In other words, to depoliticize the science? I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but as time passes, I can see its problems. For me, I had preferred the word because historical was always a given for me. In concern of the here and now, the real difficulty I had thought was understanding the social- how interactions between the child and the caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the -cultural, how the culture impacts thought, those things are more of the micro level, but also sociocultural, how the two also can interact and influence one another and that combined bears its own signature on the mind and its development. As far as History (capital H) that is sort of difficult to measure when we are talking about child development as there is very little history that a child has, unless we are talking about genetics, I suppose. Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect and am enriched by the discourse in which we now we find ourselves immersed about it so thanks to all for this. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. Jim Wertsch said: Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? or ?cultural-historical.? Mike Cole told me: In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: I should have reported progress with my question. Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin referred to on his academia.edu page for us all to read. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!V-dU0_0JC_b9gAwk3SdZaAiofbclb25Yuyh49hvgIefZCJ7zOKDQhkCxtEChwZb1eZn-zA$ As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the components more than others and he was acting nominally as a psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these components. I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. Chuck ---- ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. History will judge. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!V-dU0_0JC_b9gAwk3SdZaAiofbclb25Yuyh49hvgIefZCJ7zOKDQhkCxtEChwZYo3KUdkA$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!V-dU0_0JC_b9gAwk3SdZaAiofbclb25Yuyh49hvgIefZCJ7zOKDQhkCxtEChwZbj8Hp-gA$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!V-dU0_0JC_b9gAwk3SdZaAiofbclb25Yuyh49hvgIefZCJ7zOKDQhkCxtEChwZZ5_bq-tg$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!V-dU0_0JC_b9gAwk3SdZaAiofbclb25Yuyh49hvgIefZCJ7zOKDQhkCxtEChwZb0rAe_lg$ "Pros and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so sure the cons outweigh the pros here. But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm more outsider than insider and don't really know. Thank you for any insight. Anthony On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer > wrote: I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their view it?s the best term: Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). Sociocultural studies of mind. Cambridge University Press. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action" published by Harvard University Press in 1991. Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and artefacts mediating action. Thanks again to all Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: Andy-- Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!V-dU0_0JC_b9gAwk3SdZaAiofbclb25Yuyh49hvgIefZCJ7zOKDQhkCxtEChwZYvecKOHQ$ Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the years you'll get better granularity in the document search. On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. dk David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!V-dU0_0JC_b9gAwk3SdZaAiofbclb25Yuyh49hvgIefZCJ7zOKDQhkCxtEChwZY_og2Fig$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!V-dU0_0JC_b9gAwk3SdZaAiofbclb25Yuyh49hvgIefZCJ7zOKDQhkCxtEChwZbVWdPC5Q$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer > wrote: The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in English is this: A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use the term ?sociocultural? frequently. The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study of the Mexican. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: Andy: I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but here's what I got. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!V-dU0_0JC_b9gAwk3SdZaAiofbclb25Yuyh49hvgIefZCJ7zOKDQhkCxtEChwZYgtwDxQQ$ " width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 frameborder=0 scrolling=no So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after 1992 is Vygotsky though. Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!V-dU0_0JC_b9gAwk3SdZaAiofbclb25Yuyh49hvgIefZCJ7zOKDQhkCxtEChwZY_og2Fig$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!V-dU0_0JC_b9gAwk3SdZaAiofbclb25Yuyh49hvgIefZCJ7zOKDQhkCxtEChwZbVWdPC5Q$ On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" originated? Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200515/26051af8/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri May 15 11:26:24 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 12:26:24 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala In-Reply-To: References: <7CF68C44-2A31-4E98-8DE7-11FC0B8AE8E3@gmail.com> <002801d62a7d$417b5a50$c4720ef0$@smu.ac.za> <23CB0D56-30A3-497F-AF5F-4E4F65721AD7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0BF7D8AD-6F6F-4DCB-87D4-BA2EE8A9E05F@gmail.com> Good Day Annalisa, So sorry. Not the first time I have stumbled here. This one is hilarious and, of course, avoidable. I hope to do better with my next turn. Your link to the Times article is very interesting, related to David K?s list of men and women leaders in the face of COVID-19. I did look up Durga and Shaktism in Hinduism. Very interesting reflections on forms of power. Nourishing for the future has been planting strawberry plants in straw bales in our back yard. Stay well, Henry > On May 15, 2020, at 12:01 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hello Henry, > > It was me that sent the link regarding Kerala. > > And you did spell my name correctly. There is also an Annalie on the list (not moi). > > I found also this link in the NYT about a similar topic: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/15/world/coronavirus-women-leaders.html__;!!Mih3wA!Rca7HQ9i4qyzPQ7MfX2PZbMNv_EqJUL2r1f1r_RWfnmBIjaqoD8FHNPeipZep8XuWKfqaQ$ > > I will contemplate brown M&M's as well (read on into the next article below the above one). > > One Indian goddess whom I've always admired is Durga, the protective-mother incarnation of Kali the consort of Shiva. > > I feel as a world we could use the influence of Durga as a model to be our better selves, caring and protective is a preventative measure not a reactive one. > > To nourish is to become strong. > > What have you done to be nourishing today? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of HENRY SHONERD > > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 10:39 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala > > [EXTERNAL] > Hi AnnaLIE, > I apologize for getting your name wrong. There is someone who engages with the chat by the name of Annalie, and I thought it was she who had sent the link to the Guardian artilcle on Shailaja. Usually Annalisa writes very long posts, so I was pleasantly surprised by the brevity of the post. Ha! > Henry > > >> On May 14, 2020, at 11:54 PM, Annalie Pistorius > wrote: >> >> Yes, it shows the strength of a community-based approach that is a hands-on everyone learns everything approach practical critical method. Yeah to Shailaja?s plan to upscale teacher training to health care of patients. >> Annalie >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD >> Sent: Friday, 15 May 2020 1:02 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala >> >> Wonderful article, Annalisa! >> Definitely welcome good news about good leadership inthe face of COVID-19: K.K. Shailaja, health minister of the state of Kerala in India. A woman and a member of the Communist Party there. Already a celebrity because of the way she handled an even deadlier virus in 2018. From the article in the Guardian, ?In a way she had been preparing for a similar outbreak all her life.? From what we have been reading for years from epidemiologists, COVID-19 is a dress rehearsal for even deadlier viruses. Kerala has the highest literacy rate, the highest life expectancy and the lowest infant mortality in India. Meanwhile, the Trump team is sending out surveys that allow people to get high scores on their hatred of socialism. Tooting my New Mexico horn, we have a woman governor that has shown great leadership in maintaining social distancing. However, our literacy is among the lowest in the country and push back from deniers and conspiracy theorists has been ugly. Infection rates have been disproportionately high among Native Americans, particularly Navajos and some Pueblos, though death rates of those infected are highest among whites. >> Henry >> >> >> >>> On May 14, 2020, at 3:26 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>> >>> Hello fellow XMCArs, >>> >>> I thought this might be some good news, given all the bad news: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/14/the-coronavirus-slayer-how-keralas-rock-star-health-minister-helped-save-it-from-covid-19__;!!Mih3wA!Rca7HQ9i4qyzPQ7MfX2PZbMNv_EqJUL2r1f1r_RWfnmBIjaqoD8FHNPeipZep8WLg0jTMg$ >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200515/9bacb22d/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri May 15 11:28:31 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 11:28:31 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> Message-ID: It seems like being conscious of the politics is essential, Annalisa. The claims for "cultural/cognitive deficit" of poor people of color in this country cannot be understood without them. mike On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 11:20 AM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Andy, et al, > > I sort of came to this a little late in the thread, but I can offer that > Vera John-Steiner didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian > theory, but as I learn more about the word (thank you Mike), I can see how > once a word is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard for the > association to be broken. > > I think it's that way with words all the time coming and going out of > favor, or meanings shifting, like the game of telephone, but across > generations and cultures. > > Might I contribute to the discussion by asking whether the use of > "sociocultural" was also a means of making the theories more available in > the West (at least in the US). It seems there was redscare > (you are welcome read the double entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as > you like) prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the Marxist > "brand" to access the actual theories on child development? In other words, > to depoliticize the science? > > I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but as time passes, I can > see its problems. > > For me, I had preferred the word because historical was always a given for > me. In concern of the here and now, the real difficulty I had thought was > understanding the social- how interactions between the child and the > caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the -cultural, how the culture > impacts thought, those things are more of the micro level, but also > sociocultural, how the two also can interact and influence one another and > that combined bears its own signature on the mind and its development. As > far as History (capital H) that is sort of difficult to measure when we are > talking about child development as there is very little history that a > child has, unless we are talking about genetics, I suppose. > > Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect and am enriched by the > discourse in which we now we find ourselves immersed about it so thanks to > all for this. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have > garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. > > Jim Wertsch said: > > Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I > consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology > and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches > that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 > book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices > of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about > the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? > or ?cultural-historical.? > > Mike Cole told me: > > In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term > "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's > ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian > followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, > apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets > prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a > sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what > he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in > Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists > had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term > "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like > Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted > to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT > emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the > various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the > Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. > CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being > used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History > in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: > > I should have reported progress with my question. > > Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between > these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the > various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin > referred to on his academia.edu page for us all to read. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!T-K2m4yiGthGy1GG1vlxg-AgcWosm4EEjAbBiF8DIV5AKC1B8KrOc3tJmIDud0goQbpnNQ$ > > > As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: > > Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see > this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity > multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what > the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for > analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov > points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components > that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those > we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as > consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics > and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human > neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is > the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the > components more than others and he was acting nominally as a > psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these > components. > > I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am > talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does > not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in > motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. > > While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different > concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in > being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. > > BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social > sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication > with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This > project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. > > Chuck > ---- > ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? > ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? > Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. > The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. > History will judge. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!T-K2m4yiGthGy1GG1vlxg-AgcWosm4EEjAbBiF8DIV5AKC1B8KrOc3tJmIDud0ha7thC6w$ > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!T-K2m4yiGthGy1GG1vlxg-AgcWosm4EEjAbBiF8DIV5AKC1B8KrOc3tJmIDud0hn1ppjYg$ > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!T-K2m4yiGthGy1GG1vlxg-AgcWosm4EEjAbBiF8DIV5AKC1B8KrOc3tJmIDud0h-0wR_VQ$ > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. > > While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any > value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!T-K2m4yiGthGy1GG1vlxg-AgcWosm4EEjAbBiF8DIV5AKC1B8KrOc3tJmIDud0gMVij8FA$ > "Pros > and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" > > As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so > sure the cons outweigh the pros here. > > But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could > Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If > so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? > I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm > more outsider than insider and don't really know. > > Thank you for any insight. > > Anthony > > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer wrote: > > I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. > > Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this > book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their > view it?s the best term: > > Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). *Sociocultural > studies of mind.* Cambridge University Press. > > > Martin > > > > On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the > term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word > "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is > the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices > of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action > " > published by Harvard University Press in 1991. > > Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context > dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this > book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and > artefacts mediating action. > > Thanks again to all > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > Andy-- > > Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!T-K2m4yiGthGy1GG1vlxg-AgcWosm4EEjAbBiF8DIV5AKC1B8KrOc3tJmIDud0giN-wqBg$ > > Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the > years you'll get better granularity in the document search. > On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click > on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. > > dk > > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!T-K2m4yiGthGy1GG1vlxg-AgcWosm4EEjAbBiF8DIV5AKC1B8KrOc3tJmIDud0hizNBG9Q$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T-K2m4yiGthGy1GG1vlxg-AgcWosm4EEjAbBiF8DIV5AKC1B8KrOc3tJmIDud0gKB0aarQ$ > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer wrote: > > The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in > English is this: > > A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero > > In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press > > Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use > the term ?sociocultural? frequently. > > The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, > and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study > of the Mexican. > > Martin > > > > > On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How > do we find out who wrote what in 1988? > > And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of > seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, > peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing > higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in > interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: > > Andy: > > I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but > here's what I got. > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!T-K2m4yiGthGy1GG1vlxg-AgcWosm4EEjAbBiF8DIV5AKC1B8KrOc3tJmIDud0jO4XUx7g$ > " > width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 > frameborder=0 scrolling=no > > So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to > the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only > books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after > 1992 is Vygotsky though. > > Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very > different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the > trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!T-K2m4yiGthGy1GG1vlxg-AgcWosm4EEjAbBiF8DIV5AKC1B8KrOc3tJmIDud0hizNBG9Q$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T-K2m4yiGthGy1GG1vlxg-AgcWosm4EEjAbBiF8DIV5AKC1B8KrOc3tJmIDud0gKB0aarQ$ > > > > > On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" > originated? > > Andy > -- > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > > > > > > -- ?It is education which should play the central role in the transformation of man - this road of conscious social formation of new generations, the basic form to alter the historical human type. *New generations and new forms of their education represent the main route which history will follow whilst creating the new type of man. * Vygotsky (1932?; 1994, p.81). --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For archival materials and a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200515/0446b863/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri May 15 11:34:01 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 11:34:01 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> Message-ID: I read your Sorokiin note out of order, David. So sociocultural has democratic socialist origins that map the discontent that emerged in Madrid. mike On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 9:20 AM WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: > Sorokin was also Prime Minister Kerensky's (Feb revolution) private > secretary. After the October revolution he got involved in a bit of hapless > counter-revolutionary activity and was condemned to the firing squad. > Through the intervention of Lenin, Sorokin was offered a deal, as a > prominent liberal figure. If he renounced, in an open published letter, his > opposition to the Bolsheviks and made no further attacks, then he could > take up his position as a sociologist at Moscow University. Lenin's logic > was that Sorokin gave up his opposition, this would make it easier for > other of the liberal/professionals to do likewise. Needless to say Sorokin > kept up his criticism of the Bolsheviks but no action was taken against > him. However when Lenin suffered a stroke and was in a coma, Sorokin, > wisely, took himself and family off to America. > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Greg Thompson > *Sent:* 15 May 2020 15:48 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > Mike, > Just wondering if you ever heard of Pitirim Alexandrovich Sorokin's > (Sociology, Harvard) use of "sociocultural" pre-WWII? > Any recollections? > -greg > (and in case anyone is interested in this Russian-born interdisciplinary > sociologist who became the first head of the Sociology Department at > Harvard (and used the term "sociocultural" in 1937): > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.suz.uzh.ch/dam/jcr:00000000-36d7-41d4-0000-000064b51e55/simpson_sorokin.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!VQd70V0IaRdbC7thvOhjYn2Vq0NEIxcii67HyJz7gcn7i1kO7swWL3Mc4_RTxHt2jxnh_w$ > > ) > > On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:20 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > Mike tells me that my account is indeed "pretty muddled," so please do not > quote anything from that email, and do not ascribe any of it to Mike. The > chapter Mike sent around, and Jim Wertsch's book, are the places to go for > reliable information. > > Sorry. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 15/05/2020 11:24 am, Andy Blunden wrote: > > In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have > garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. > > Jim Wertsch said: > > Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I > consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology > and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches > that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 > book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices > of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about > the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? > or ?cultural-historical.? > > Mike Cole told me: > > In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term > "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's > ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian > followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, > apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets > prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a > sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what > he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in > Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists > had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term > "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like > Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted > to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT > emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the > various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the > Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. > CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being > used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History > in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: > > I should have reported progress with my question. > > Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between > these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the > various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin > referred to on his academia.edu > > page for us all to read. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!VQd70V0IaRdbC7thvOhjYn2Vq0NEIxcii67HyJz7gcn7i1kO7swWL3Mc4_RTxHuyiYqJTA$ > > > As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: > > Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see > this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity > multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what > the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for > analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov > points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components > that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those > we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as > consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics > and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human > neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is > the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the > components more than others and he was acting nominally as a > psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these > components. > > I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am > talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does > not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in > motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. > > While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different > concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in > being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. > > BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social > sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication > with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This > project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. > > Chuck > ---- > ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? > ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? > Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. > The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. > History will judge. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!VQd70V0IaRdbC7thvOhjYn2Vq0NEIxcii67HyJz7gcn7i1kO7swWL3Mc4_RTxHsWP2Ap1g$ > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!VQd70V0IaRdbC7thvOhjYn2Vq0NEIxcii67HyJz7gcn7i1kO7swWL3Mc4_RTxHuGnj73Rw$ > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!VQd70V0IaRdbC7thvOhjYn2Vq0NEIxcii67HyJz7gcn7i1kO7swWL3Mc4_RTxHt-lZjvhg$ > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. > > While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any > value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!VQd70V0IaRdbC7thvOhjYn2Vq0NEIxcii67HyJz7gcn7i1kO7swWL3Mc4_RTxHu116Jfng$ > "Pros > and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" > > As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so > sure the cons outweigh the pros here. > > But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could > Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If > so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? > I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm > more outsider than insider and don't really know. > > Thank you for any insight. > > Anthony > > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer wrote: > > I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. > > Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this > book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their > view it?s the best term: > > Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). *Sociocultural > studies of mind.* Cambridge University Press. > > > Martin > > > > On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the > term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word > "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is > the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices > of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action > " > published by Harvard University Press in 1991. > > Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context > dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this > book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and > artefacts mediating action. > > Thanks again to all > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > Andy-- > > Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!VQd70V0IaRdbC7thvOhjYn2Vq0NEIxcii67HyJz7gcn7i1kO7swWL3Mc4_RTxHucdG8qtg$ > > Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the > years you'll get better granularity in the document search. > On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click > on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. > > dk > > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VQd70V0IaRdbC7thvOhjYn2Vq0NEIxcii67HyJz7gcn7i1kO7swWL3Mc4_RTxHv9935pXA$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VQd70V0IaRdbC7thvOhjYn2Vq0NEIxcii67HyJz7gcn7i1kO7swWL3Mc4_RTxHsQ1OdzbA$ > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer wrote: > > The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in > English is this: > > A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero > > In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press > > Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use > the term ?sociocultural? frequently. > > The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, > and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study > of the Mexican. > > Martin > > > > > On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How > do we find out who wrote what in 1988? > > And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of > seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, > peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing > higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in > interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: > > Andy: > > I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but > here's what I got. > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!VQd70V0IaRdbC7thvOhjYn2Vq0NEIxcii67HyJz7gcn7i1kO7swWL3Mc4_RTxHug_re8Zg$ > " > width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 > frameborder=0 scrolling=no > > So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to > the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only > books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after > 1992 is Vygotsky though. > > Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very > different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the > trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VQd70V0IaRdbC7thvOhjYn2Vq0NEIxcii67HyJz7gcn7i1kO7swWL3Mc4_RTxHv9935pXA$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VQd70V0IaRdbC7thvOhjYn2Vq0NEIxcii67HyJz7gcn7i1kO7swWL3Mc4_RTxHsQ1OdzbA$ > > > > > On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" > originated? > > Andy > -- > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!VQd70V0IaRdbC7thvOhjYn2Vq0NEIxcii67HyJz7gcn7i1kO7swWL3Mc4_RTxHtMns50lQ$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!VQd70V0IaRdbC7thvOhjYn2Vq0NEIxcii67HyJz7gcn7i1kO7swWL3Mc4_RTxHu5NxGkEA$ > > -- ?It is education which should play the central role in the transformation of man - this road of conscious social formation of new generations, the basic form to alter the historical human type. *New generations and new forms of their education represent the main route which history will follow whilst creating the new type of man. * Vygotsky (1932?; 1994, p.81). --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For archival materials and a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200515/166daeed/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Fri May 15 11:47:45 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 18:47:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> , Message-ID: Hi Mike, But is not that application of the political after the science and not before its application? Or is this a chicken and egg argument of which comes first? Then, have I hit a vein here, that there can be no objective science? That its application can only ever be political? Yet...I consider Galileo for example, vis ? vis the Catholic Church's need to adhere to a geocentric model of our solar system. I do not think that Galileo intended to overturn the church in pursuing his curiosity of the stars; it wasn't his intention to be political, and yet his discoveries became ever so political, much to his regret. I think that is why I say the politics comes after the science, not before. But feel free to disabuse me of that reflection if you like. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 12:28 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] It seems like being conscious of the politics is essential, Annalisa. The claims for "cultural/cognitive deficit" of poor people of color in this country cannot be understood without them. mike On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 11:20 AM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Andy, et al, I sort of came to this a little late in the thread, but I can offer that Vera John-Steiner didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian theory, but as I learn more about the word (thank you Mike), I can see how once a word is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard for the association to be broken. I think it's that way with words all the time coming and going out of favor, or meanings shifting, like the game of telephone, but across generations and cultures. Might I contribute to the discussion by asking whether the use of "sociocultural" was also a means of making the theories more available in the West (at least in the US). It seems there was redscare (you are welcome read the double entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as you like) prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the Marxist "brand" to access the actual theories on child development? In other words, to depoliticize the science? I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but as time passes, I can see its problems. For me, I had preferred the word because historical was always a given for me. In concern of the here and now, the real difficulty I had thought was understanding the social- how interactions between the child and the caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the -cultural, how the culture impacts thought, those things are more of the micro level, but also sociocultural, how the two also can interact and influence one another and that combined bears its own signature on the mind and its development. As far as History (capital H) that is sort of difficult to measure when we are talking about child development as there is very little history that a child has, unless we are talking about genetics, I suppose. Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect and am enriched by the discourse in which we now we find ourselves immersed about it so thanks to all for this. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. Jim Wertsch said: Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? or ?cultural-historical.? Mike Cole told me: In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: I should have reported progress with my question. Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin referred to on his academia.edu page for us all to read. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!TEAoSNiaqD-Ik_-Chinlxv3h0s3Gqkaa6ISORyCRgpdJDl0HbRBW0hqkgsVok95whI9BhQ$ As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the components more than others and he was acting nominally as a psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these components. I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. Chuck ---- ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. History will judge. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!TEAoSNiaqD-Ik_-Chinlxv3h0s3Gqkaa6ISORyCRgpdJDl0HbRBW0hqkgsVok94gFdkXEw$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!TEAoSNiaqD-Ik_-Chinlxv3h0s3Gqkaa6ISORyCRgpdJDl0HbRBW0hqkgsVok97mGUOJOg$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!TEAoSNiaqD-Ik_-Chinlxv3h0s3Gqkaa6ISORyCRgpdJDl0HbRBW0hqkgsVok9665rcWjQ$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!TEAoSNiaqD-Ik_-Chinlxv3h0s3Gqkaa6ISORyCRgpdJDl0HbRBW0hqkgsVok97cC1Aylw$ "Pros and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so sure the cons outweigh the pros here. But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm more outsider than insider and don't really know. Thank you for any insight. Anthony On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer > wrote: I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their view it?s the best term: Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). Sociocultural studies of mind. Cambridge University Press. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action" published by Harvard University Press in 1991. Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and artefacts mediating action. Thanks again to all Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: Andy-- Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!TEAoSNiaqD-Ik_-Chinlxv3h0s3Gqkaa6ISORyCRgpdJDl0HbRBW0hqkgsVok94IZgKC6Q$ Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the years you'll get better granularity in the document search. On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. dk David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!TEAoSNiaqD-Ik_-Chinlxv3h0s3Gqkaa6ISORyCRgpdJDl0HbRBW0hqkgsVok95tR7S1DQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TEAoSNiaqD-Ik_-Chinlxv3h0s3Gqkaa6ISORyCRgpdJDl0HbRBW0hqkgsVok94w3Ik43Q$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer > wrote: The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in English is this: A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use the term ?sociocultural? frequently. The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study of the Mexican. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: Andy: I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but here's what I got. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!TEAoSNiaqD-Ik_-Chinlxv3h0s3Gqkaa6ISORyCRgpdJDl0HbRBW0hqkgsVok964Hbt_DQ$ " width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 frameborder=0 scrolling=no So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after 1992 is Vygotsky though. Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!TEAoSNiaqD-Ik_-Chinlxv3h0s3Gqkaa6ISORyCRgpdJDl0HbRBW0hqkgsVok95tR7S1DQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TEAoSNiaqD-Ik_-Chinlxv3h0s3Gqkaa6ISORyCRgpdJDl0HbRBW0hqkgsVok94w3Ik43Q$ On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" originated? Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -- ?It is education which should play the central role in the transformation of man - this road of conscious social formation of new generations, the basic form to alter the historical human type. New generations and new forms of their education represent the main route which history will follow whilst creating the new type of man. Vygotsky (1932?; 1994, p.81). --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For archival materials and a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200515/ed4c7eac/attachment-0001.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri May 15 12:21:55 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 12:21:55 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> Message-ID: Let?s see what others have to say on this,Annalisa. I have taken my two turns for the. ? Mike On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 11:52 AM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Mike, > > But is not that application of the political after the science and not > before its application? > > Or is this a chicken and egg argument of which comes first? > > Then, have I hit a vein here, that there can be no objective science? That > its application can only ever be political? > > Yet...I consider Galileo for example, vis ? vis the Catholic Church's need > to adhere to a geocentric model of our solar system. I do not think that > Galileo intended to overturn the church in pursuing his curiosity of the > stars; it wasn't his intention to be political, and yet his discoveries > became ever so political, much to his regret. > > I think that is why I say the politics comes after the science, not > before. But feel free to disabuse me of that reflection if you like. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2020 12:28 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > It seems like being conscious of the politics is essential, Annalisa. The > claims for "cultural/cognitive deficit" of poor > people of color in this country cannot be understood without them. > mike > > On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 11:20 AM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > Andy, et al, > > I sort of came to this a little late in the thread, but I can offer that > Vera John-Steiner didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian > theory, but as I learn more about the word (thank you Mike), I can see how > once a word is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard for the > association to be broken. > > I think it's that way with words all the time coming and going out of > favor, or meanings shifting, like the game of telephone, but across > generations and cultures. > > Might I contribute to the discussion by asking whether the use of > "sociocultural" was also a means of making the theories more available in > the West (at least in the US). It seems there was redscare > (you are welcome read the double entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as > you like) prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the Marxist > "brand" to access the actual theories on child development? In other words, > to depoliticize the science? > > I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but as time passes, I can > see its problems. > > For me, I had preferred the word because historical was always a given for > me. In concern of the here and now, the real difficulty I had thought was > understanding the social- how interactions between the child and the > caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the -cultural, how the culture > impacts thought, those things are more of the micro level, but also > sociocultural, how the two also can interact and influence one another and > that combined bears its own signature on the mind and its development. As > far as History (capital H) that is sort of difficult to measure when we are > talking about child development as there is very little history that a > child has, unless we are talking about genetics, I suppose. > > Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect and am enriched by the > discourse in which we now we find ourselves immersed about it so thanks to > all for this. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have > garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. > > Jim Wertsch said: > > Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I > consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology > and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches > that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 > book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices > of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about > the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? > or ?cultural-historical.? > > Mike Cole told me: > > In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term > "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's > ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian > followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, > apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets > prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a > sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what > he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in > Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists > had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term > "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like > Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted > to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT > emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the > various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the > Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. > CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being > used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History > in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: > > I should have reported progress with my question. > > Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between > these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the > various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin > referred to on his academia.edu > > page for us all to read. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!VVRQoZFt83DvnWiFZcS8eMvxhRDqa0c4SXL62cA9aU3zaNiN7HXOjUia3ELpjhiHML_XhA$ > > > As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: > > Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see > this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity > multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what > the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for > analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov > points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components > that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those > we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as > consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics > and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human > neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is > the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the > components more than others and he was acting nominally as a > psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these > components. > > I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am > talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does > not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in > motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. > > While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different > concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in > being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. > > BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social > sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication > with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This > project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. > > Chuck > ---- > ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? > ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? > Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. > The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. > History will judge. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!VVRQoZFt83DvnWiFZcS8eMvxhRDqa0c4SXL62cA9aU3zaNiN7HXOjUia3ELpjhjLnsUBbg$ > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!VVRQoZFt83DvnWiFZcS8eMvxhRDqa0c4SXL62cA9aU3zaNiN7HXOjUia3ELpjhgWrXgcVg$ > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!VVRQoZFt83DvnWiFZcS8eMvxhRDqa0c4SXL62cA9aU3zaNiN7HXOjUia3ELpjhib5tgy2Q$ > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. > > While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any > value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!VVRQoZFt83DvnWiFZcS8eMvxhRDqa0c4SXL62cA9aU3zaNiN7HXOjUia3ELpjhiMwGBQjQ$ > "Pros > and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" > > As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so > sure the cons outweigh the pros here. > > But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could > Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If > so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? > I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm > more outsider than insider and don't really know. > > Thank you for any insight. > > Anthony > > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer wrote: > > I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. > > Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this > book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their > view it?s the best term: > > Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). *Sociocultural > studies of mind.* Cambridge University Press. > > > Martin > > > > On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the > term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word > "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is > the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices > of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action > " > published by Harvard University Press in 1991. > > Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context > dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this > book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and > artefacts mediating action. > > Thanks again to all > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > Andy-- > > Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!VVRQoZFt83DvnWiFZcS8eMvxhRDqa0c4SXL62cA9aU3zaNiN7HXOjUia3ELpjhhc5i5tNA$ > > Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the > years you'll get better granularity in the document search. > On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click > on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. > > dk > > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VVRQoZFt83DvnWiFZcS8eMvxhRDqa0c4SXL62cA9aU3zaNiN7HXOjUia3ELpjhgDc-GxZw$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VVRQoZFt83DvnWiFZcS8eMvxhRDqa0c4SXL62cA9aU3zaNiN7HXOjUia3ELpjhgIrowC2w$ > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer wrote: > > The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in > English is this: > > A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero > > In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press > > Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use > the term ?sociocultural? frequently. > > The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, > and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study > of the Mexican. > > Martin > > > > > On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How > do we find out who wrote what in 1988? > > And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of > seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, > peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing > higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in > interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: > > Andy: > > I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but > here's what I got. > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!VVRQoZFt83DvnWiFZcS8eMvxhRDqa0c4SXL62cA9aU3zaNiN7HXOjUia3ELpjhiALl_eAg$ > " > width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 > frameborder=0 scrolling=no > > So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to > the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only > books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after > 1992 is Vygotsky though. > > Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very > different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the > trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VVRQoZFt83DvnWiFZcS8eMvxhRDqa0c4SXL62cA9aU3zaNiN7HXOjUia3ELpjhgDc-GxZw$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VVRQoZFt83DvnWiFZcS8eMvxhRDqa0c4SXL62cA9aU3zaNiN7HXOjUia3ELpjhgIrowC2w$ > > > > > On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" > originated? > > Andy > > > -- > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > ?It is education which should play the central role in the transformation > of man - this road of conscious social formation of new generations, the > basic form to alter the historical human type. *New generations and new > forms of their education represent the main route which history will follow > whilst creating the new type of man. * Vygotsky (1932?; 1994, p.81). > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other > members of LCHC, visit > lchc.ucsd.edu. For archival materials and a narrative history of the > research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > -- ?It is education which should play the central role in the transformation of man - this road of conscious social formation of new generations, the basic form to alter the historical human type. *New generations and new forms of their education represent the main route which history will follow whilst creating the new type of man. * Vygotsky (1932?; 1994, p.81). --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For archival materials and a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200515/105af2c2/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Fri May 15 12:27:50 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 19:27:50 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala In-Reply-To: <0BF7D8AD-6F6F-4DCB-87D4-BA2EE8A9E05F@gmail.com> References: <7CF68C44-2A31-4E98-8DE7-11FC0B8AE8E3@gmail.com> <002801d62a7d$417b5a50$c4720ef0$@smu.ac.za> <23CB0D56-30A3-497F-AF5F-4E4F65721AD7@gmail.com> , <0BF7D8AD-6F6F-4DCB-87D4-BA2EE8A9E05F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hola Henry, No worries. As far as "Shaktism", be wary of Angli-sliced words, and what they do to the underlying meanings. Shakti is Sanskrit to mean "power" and just like in English the word can be used in many contexts, as is the same with shakti. For example in Vedic culture, speech is considered to have shakti. And from what little we know of Driud culture, Druids were considered masters of language and could halt wars with a speech. Merlin is a prototype, who is sometimes reduced to a magician-wizard, but certainly casting spells is another way of describing power to speech in the west, but that is perhaps a method that disempowers because to cast a spell is considered superstitious and not a valid somehow. And yet there is a peculiar phenomenon I see in our stable genius how he will repeat over and over the same fallacy and it has an impact I would not say is far removed from casting a spell. It is a kind of shakti that he wields to detrimental effect. Shakti can also be translated into we call in the west a "gift," such as a prodigy five-year-old pianist. But shakti is that. I feel that shakti is tied more to the person where "gift" divides seems to divide the power from the person, as if the person (exercising the gift) had no cause in its generation. This of course leads to the entire disembodied genius mythology, right? which only separates even more, rather than to unify. As I see it, there is in our western cultural-historical progression a habit to remove the subtle from the gross, where in Vedic culture they inhabit the same loci without conflict, in fact that are considered of the same substrate: a form that matter might take is on a continuum of degree (subtle to gross). Consider how H2O can travel from gas to liquid to solid. Perhaps this need to divide the subtle from the gross in the west is a Cartesian residue. I believe that to be the case. At the same time in Vedic culture, shakti is considered the feminine, perhaps because it is subtle. Not sure what it means to ascribe gender to the subtle vs gross, but at the least there is poetry in it. Really my contribution to highlight the role model of Durga is also to suggest how little we do see of the female as warrior or even less as the protective mother. Once in a while we might reference a Grizzly bear and her cubs, but it's quite peripheral when it comes to the roles of women in American culture. I truly admire the Prime Minister of New Zealand. She is certainly bursting of Durga shakti! ?? If only we could manage to cultivate that here on our own terra firma. But strawberries will have to do for the time being! Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 12:26 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Good Day Annalisa, So sorry. Not the first time I have stumbled here. This one is hilarious and, of course, avoidable. I hope to do better with my next turn. Your link to the Times article is very interesting, related to David K?s list of men and women leaders in the face of COVID-19. I did look up Durga and Shaktism in Hinduism. Very interesting reflections on forms of power. Nourishing for the future has been planting strawberry plants in straw bales in our back yard. Stay well, Henry On May 15, 2020, at 12:01 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello Henry, It was me that sent the link regarding Kerala. And you did spell my name correctly. There is also an Annalie on the list (not moi). I found also this link in the NYT about a similar topic: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/15/world/coronavirus-women-leaders.html__;!!Mih3wA!SzOfC81mcQ1D5WKZLyqR4ToNmCsmIjCbzkB38Ru3K4D8nigsexvr_lXB7RH3yhREXjp0XQ$ I will contemplate brown M&M's as well (read on into the next article below the above one). One Indian goddess whom I've always admired is Durga, the protective-mother incarnation of Kali the consort of Shiva. I feel as a world we could use the influence of Durga as a model to be our better selves, caring and protective is a preventative measure not a reactive one. To nourish is to become strong. What have you done to be nourishing today? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of HENRY SHONERD > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 10:39 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Hi AnnaLIE, I apologize for getting your name wrong. There is someone who engages with the chat by the name of Annalie, and I thought it was she who had sent the link to the Guardian artilcle on Shailaja. Usually Annalisa writes very long posts, so I was pleasantly surprised by the brevity of the post. Ha! Henry On May 14, 2020, at 11:54 PM, Annalie Pistorius > wrote: Yes, it shows the strength of a community-based approach that is a hands-on everyone learns everything approach practical critical method. Yeah to Shailaja?s plan to upscale teacher training to health care of patients. Annalie From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Friday, 15 May 2020 1:02 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Wonderful article, Annalisa! Definitely welcome good news about good leadership inthe face of COVID-19: K.K. Shailaja, health minister of the state of Kerala in India. A woman and a member of the Communist Party there. Already a celebrity because of the way she handled an even deadlier virus in 2018. From the article in the Guardian, ?In a way she had been preparing for a similar outbreak all her life.? From what we have been reading for years from epidemiologists, COVID-19 is a dress rehearsal for even deadlier viruses. Kerala has the highest literacy rate, the highest life expectancy and the lowest infant mortality in India. Meanwhile, the Trump team is sending out surveys that allow people to get high scores on their hatred of socialism. Tooting my New Mexico horn, we have a woman governor that has shown great leadership in maintaining social distancing. However, our literacy is among the lowest in the country and push back from deniers and conspiracy theorists has been ugly. Infection rates have been disproportionately high among Native Americans, particularly Navajos and some Pueblos, though death rates of those infected are highest among whites. Henry On May 14, 2020, at 3:26 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello fellow XMCArs, I thought this might be some good news, given all the bad news: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/14/the-coronavirus-slayer-how-keralas-rock-star-health-minister-helped-save-it-from-covid-19__;!!Mih3wA!SzOfC81mcQ1D5WKZLyqR4ToNmCsmIjCbzkB38Ru3K4D8nigsexvr_lXB7RH3yhRHGDeIig$ Cheers, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200515/379279e4/attachment.html From d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk Fri May 15 13:34:28 2020 From: d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk (WEBSTER, DAVID S.) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 20:34:28 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala In-Reply-To: References: <7CF68C44-2A31-4E98-8DE7-11FC0B8AE8E3@gmail.com> <002801d62a7d$417b5a50$c4720ef0$@smu.ac.za> <23CB0D56-30A3-497F-AF5F-4E4F65721AD7@gmail.com> , <0BF7D8AD-6F6F-4DCB-87D4-BA2EE8A9E05F@gmail.com>, Message-ID: Druid culture? Presume you mean mid-late 1st century AD Iron Age Britain. We know a lot about the houses they lived in, the kind of weapons, pottery and cloth and art an such like, they made, their agricultural practices and diet. As for Druids, well...only such self-serving stories the Romans chose to relate. Next to nothing about their language though; lot of speculation of course. Regards David ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 15 May 2020 19:27 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Hola Henry, No worries. As far as "Shaktism", be wary of Angli-sliced words, and what they do to the underlying meanings. Shakti is Sanskrit to mean "power" and just like in English the word can be used in many contexts, as is the same with shakti. For example in Vedic culture, speech is considered to have shakti. And from what little we know of Driud culture, Druids were considered masters of language and could halt wars with a speech. Merlin is a prototype, who is sometimes reduced to a magician-wizard, but certainly casting spells is another way of describing power to speech in the west, but that is perhaps a method that disempowers because to cast a spell is considered superstitious and not a valid somehow. And yet there is a peculiar phenomenon I see in our stable genius how he will repeat over and over the same fallacy and it has an impact I would not say is far removed from casting a spell. It is a kind of shakti that he wields to detrimental effect. Shakti can also be translated into we call in the west a "gift," such as a prodigy five-year-old pianist. But shakti is that. I feel that shakti is tied more to the person where "gift" divides seems to divide the power from the person, as if the person (exercising the gift) had no cause in its generation. This of course leads to the entire disembodied genius mythology, right? which only separates even more, rather than to unify. As I see it, there is in our western cultural-historical progression a habit to remove the subtle from the gross, where in Vedic culture they inhabit the same loci without conflict, in fact that are considered of the same substrate: a form that matter might take is on a continuum of degree (subtle to gross). Consider how H2O can travel from gas to liquid to solid. Perhaps this need to divide the subtle from the gross in the west is a Cartesian residue. I believe that to be the case. At the same time in Vedic culture, shakti is considered the feminine, perhaps because it is subtle. Not sure what it means to ascribe gender to the subtle vs gross, but at the least there is poetry in it. Really my contribution to highlight the role model of Durga is also to suggest how little we do see of the female as warrior or even less as the protective mother. Once in a while we might reference a Grizzly bear and her cubs, but it's quite peripheral when it comes to the roles of women in American culture. I truly admire the Prime Minister of New Zealand. She is certainly bursting of Durga shakti! ? If only we could manage to cultivate that here on our own terra firma. But strawberries will have to do for the time being! Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 12:26 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Good Day Annalisa, So sorry. Not the first time I have stumbled here. This one is hilarious and, of course, avoidable. I hope to do better with my next turn. Your link to the Times article is very interesting, related to David K?s list of men and women leaders in the face of COVID-19. I did look up Durga and Shaktism in Hinduism. Very interesting reflections on forms of power. Nourishing for the future has been planting strawberry plants in straw bales in our back yard. Stay well, Henry On May 15, 2020, at 12:01 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello Henry, It was me that sent the link regarding Kerala. And you did spell my name correctly. There is also an Annalie on the list (not moi). I found also this link in the NYT about a similar topic: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/15/world/coronavirus-women-leaders.html__;!!Mih3wA!Vyej2YmLjs1dw0z7TJ5KP3pGuIicdo-mC67Sth2-FRA0Q0HCFm1kGiuh0Q08vGxeOkVW6A$ I will contemplate brown M&M's as well (read on into the next article below the above one). One Indian goddess whom I've always admired is Durga, the protective-mother incarnation of Kali the consort of Shiva. I feel as a world we could use the influence of Durga as a model to be our better selves, caring and protective is a preventative measure not a reactive one. To nourish is to become strong. What have you done to be nourishing today? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of HENRY SHONERD > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 10:39 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Hi AnnaLIE, I apologize for getting your name wrong. There is someone who engages with the chat by the name of Annalie, and I thought it was she who had sent the link to the Guardian artilcle on Shailaja. Usually Annalisa writes very long posts, so I was pleasantly surprised by the brevity of the post. Ha! Henry On May 14, 2020, at 11:54 PM, Annalie Pistorius > wrote: Yes, it shows the strength of a community-based approach that is a hands-on everyone learns everything approach practical critical method. Yeah to Shailaja?s plan to upscale teacher training to health care of patients. Annalie From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Friday, 15 May 2020 1:02 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Wonderful article, Annalisa! Definitely welcome good news about good leadership inthe face of COVID-19: K.K. Shailaja, health minister of the state of Kerala in India. A woman and a member of the Communist Party there. Already a celebrity because of the way she handled an even deadlier virus in 2018. From the article in the Guardian, ?In a way she had been preparing for a similar outbreak all her life.? From what we have been reading for years from epidemiologists, COVID-19 is a dress rehearsal for even deadlier viruses. Kerala has the highest literacy rate, the highest life expectancy and the lowest infant mortality in India. Meanwhile, the Trump team is sending out surveys that allow people to get high scores on their hatred of socialism. Tooting my New Mexico horn, we have a woman governor that has shown great leadership in maintaining social distancing. However, our literacy is among the lowest in the country and push back from deniers and conspiracy theorists has been ugly. Infection rates have been disproportionately high among Native Americans, particularly Navajos and some Pueblos, though death rates of those infected are highest among whites. Henry On May 14, 2020, at 3:26 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello fellow XMCArs, I thought this might be some good news, given all the bad news: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/14/the-coronavirus-slayer-how-keralas-rock-star-health-minister-helped-save-it-from-covid-19__;!!Mih3wA!Vyej2YmLjs1dw0z7TJ5KP3pGuIicdo-mC67Sth2-FRA0Q0HCFm1kGiuh0Q08vGz3LabG6Q$ Cheers, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200515/62f10ecd/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Fri May 15 14:56:43 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 21:56:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala In-Reply-To: References: <7CF68C44-2A31-4E98-8DE7-11FC0B8AE8E3@gmail.com> <002801d62a7d$417b5a50$c4720ef0$@smu.ac.za> <23CB0D56-30A3-497F-AF5F-4E4F65721AD7@gmail.com> , <0BF7D8AD-6F6F-4DCB-87D4-BA2EE8A9E05F@gmail.com>, , Message-ID: Hi David, Alas that Capital H-history were only based upon the conquest of the victors. Fortunately folk stories are carried down in a verbal tradition. (Another power of speech!) We do know something of the Druids, though I agree with you, not as much as we might like. The same can be said about the Cathars. Few know of them either, even today. Many cultures of the past have been decimated and from that we have inherited a distorted lens by which to examine them. Poor us! We know of the Ancient Greeks, the Ancient Egyptians too, because of someone writing it all down and the parchment and stone lasting through the ages, in some cases not that well, for us to piece together bit by bit, translate and reflect. Only to argue theories of what once was. The Vedic culture, interestingly, is one ancient culture that has remained intact, unlike the culture of the Ancient Greeks or Ancient Egyptians. One reason that I find it so captivating because it provides me an unadulterated view of how the ancients (of that time and place) thought. By the way, that is not to say I'm promoting caste systems, or that that it is somehow a perfect social system. The number of Sanskrit texts available is staggering, and those scholars prepared to preserve them for posterity are steadfast in their duty to pass it down, as had been done before them. There are interesting activity triangles in the way Karma is understood that I feel is comparable to Vygotsky's theories of development of higher psychological functions. Karma is the Sanskrit word for "action" which most people might already know. The system of karma has a qualitative function that in a simplistic way entails the old saw, "what goes around comes around," but with more nuance lays out how an individual can choose to act in order to gain a particular outcome, that has a gross and subtle result as consequence, which could also be translated as "seen" and "unseen" consequences. I suppose the Buddha, who came along later, elected to focus on mind and its different qualities, however for the most part Buddhist vocabulary or its conceptual library is a borrowing (or anti-borrowing) from Vedic culture. It is difficult to not think of an elephant when one has brought it up in the first place. I find another commonality with Vygotskian-generated theories (aka CHAT) vis ? vis the Vedic and Buddhist worldviews is that each has a stance of liberation as the final achievement. Who doesn't want to be free? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 2:34 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Druid culture? Presume you mean mid-late 1st century AD Iron Age Britain. We know a lot about the houses they lived in, the kind of weapons, pottery and cloth and art an such like, they made, their agricultural practices and diet. As for Druids, well...only such self-serving stories the Romans chose to relate. Next to nothing about their language though; lot of speculation of course. Regards David ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 15 May 2020 19:27 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Hola Henry, No worries. As far as "Shaktism", be wary of Angli-sliced words, and what they do to the underlying meanings. Shakti is Sanskrit to mean "power" and just like in English the word can be used in many contexts, as is the same with shakti. For example in Vedic culture, speech is considered to have shakti. And from what little we know of Driud culture, Druids were considered masters of language and could halt wars with a speech. Merlin is a prototype, who is sometimes reduced to a magician-wizard, but certainly casting spells is another way of describing power to speech in the west, but that is perhaps a method that disempowers because to cast a spell is considered superstitious and not a valid somehow. And yet there is a peculiar phenomenon I see in our stable genius how he will repeat over and over the same fallacy and it has an impact I would not say is far removed from casting a spell. It is a kind of shakti that he wields to detrimental effect. Shakti can also be translated into we call in the west a "gift," such as a prodigy five-year-old pianist. But shakti is that. I feel that shakti is tied more to the person where "gift" divides seems to divide the power from the person, as if the person (exercising the gift) had no cause in its generation. This of course leads to the entire disembodied genius mythology, right? which only separates even more, rather than to unify. As I see it, there is in our western cultural-historical progression a habit to remove the subtle from the gross, where in Vedic culture they inhabit the same loci without conflict, in fact that are considered of the same substrate: a form that matter might take is on a continuum of degree (subtle to gross). Consider how H2O can travel from gas to liquid to solid. Perhaps this need to divide the subtle from the gross in the west is a Cartesian residue. I believe that to be the case. At the same time in Vedic culture, shakti is considered the feminine, perhaps because it is subtle. Not sure what it means to ascribe gender to the subtle vs gross, but at the least there is poetry in it. Really my contribution to highlight the role model of Durga is also to suggest how little we do see of the female as warrior or even less as the protective mother. Once in a while we might reference a Grizzly bear and her cubs, but it's quite peripheral when it comes to the roles of women in American culture. I truly admire the Prime Minister of New Zealand. She is certainly bursting of Durga shakti! ? If only we could manage to cultivate that here on our own terra firma. But strawberries will have to do for the time being! Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 12:26 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Good Day Annalisa, So sorry. Not the first time I have stumbled here. This one is hilarious and, of course, avoidable. I hope to do better with my next turn. Your link to the Times article is very interesting, related to David K?s list of men and women leaders in the face of COVID-19. I did look up Durga and Shaktism in Hinduism. Very interesting reflections on forms of power. Nourishing for the future has been planting strawberry plants in straw bales in our back yard. Stay well, Henry On May 15, 2020, at 12:01 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello Henry, It was me that sent the link regarding Kerala. And you did spell my name correctly. There is also an Annalie on the list (not moi). I found also this link in the NYT about a similar topic: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/15/world/coronavirus-women-leaders.html__;!!Mih3wA!QW2vdkkRiX4Ao69ortZJHBgiQa3jxv4H7OvFhTPQZkLt2IXjjKvEgqJIp5-J011sE5GvKw$ I will contemplate brown M&M's as well (read on into the next article below the above one). One Indian goddess whom I've always admired is Durga, the protective-mother incarnation of Kali the consort of Shiva. I feel as a world we could use the influence of Durga as a model to be our better selves, caring and protective is a preventative measure not a reactive one. To nourish is to become strong. What have you done to be nourishing today? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of HENRY SHONERD > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 10:39 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Hi AnnaLIE, I apologize for getting your name wrong. There is someone who engages with the chat by the name of Annalie, and I thought it was she who had sent the link to the Guardian artilcle on Shailaja. Usually Annalisa writes very long posts, so I was pleasantly surprised by the brevity of the post. Ha! Henry On May 14, 2020, at 11:54 PM, Annalie Pistorius > wrote: Yes, it shows the strength of a community-based approach that is a hands-on everyone learns everything approach practical critical method. Yeah to Shailaja?s plan to upscale teacher training to health care of patients. Annalie From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Friday, 15 May 2020 1:02 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Wonderful article, Annalisa! Definitely welcome good news about good leadership inthe face of COVID-19: K.K. Shailaja, health minister of the state of Kerala in India. A woman and a member of the Communist Party there. Already a celebrity because of the way she handled an even deadlier virus in 2018. From the article in the Guardian, ?In a way she had been preparing for a similar outbreak all her life.? From what we have been reading for years from epidemiologists, COVID-19 is a dress rehearsal for even deadlier viruses. Kerala has the highest literacy rate, the highest life expectancy and the lowest infant mortality in India. Meanwhile, the Trump team is sending out surveys that allow people to get high scores on their hatred of socialism. Tooting my New Mexico horn, we have a woman governor that has shown great leadership in maintaining social distancing. However, our literacy is among the lowest in the country and push back from deniers and conspiracy theorists has been ugly. Infection rates have been disproportionately high among Native Americans, particularly Navajos and some Pueblos, though death rates of those infected are highest among whites. Henry On May 14, 2020, at 3:26 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello fellow XMCArs, I thought this might be some good news, given all the bad news: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/14/the-coronavirus-slayer-how-keralas-rock-star-health-minister-helped-save-it-from-covid-19__;!!Mih3wA!QW2vdkkRiX4Ao69ortZJHBgiQa3jxv4H7OvFhTPQZkLt2IXjjKvEgqJIp5-J013s42cnQg$ Cheers, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200515/54686c44/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri May 15 16:41:11 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 08:41:11 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> Message-ID: I don't think I would call Sorokin a "democratic socialist", Mike. He was a member of the Social Revolutionists--the "Narodniki" who tried to assassinate Lenin. But then he became a moral conservative, rather in the style of Solzhenitsyn, and apparently Mike Pence is really big on his writings; he claimed that Sorokin demonstrated that the collapse of civilizations follow directly on the collapse of "one man one woman" families. Au fait, we are having a bit of a spike in Covid 19 cases here in Seoul at present. For once it is not linked to churches but rather to clubhopping in Itaewon (where you can apparently buy a ticket to one club and get free drinks and free entry in another five). Clubbing, like choir practice, is very conducive to shouting in each other's faces. (So are families, though--some "cognitive deficits" are not even differences.) (Even I have mellowed as a result of the pandemic. I had to record a lecture yesterday and when I played it back I noticed that for the first time in my life I don't sound like I am addressing a charging battalion of riot police. But maybe that is just professorship and not prophylaxis....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!W5lI6GeP2SfEOb3t3-ZQPS3r1EMH8g4Wi_AdrEY1fzAWW_vkXw8ATi-Jc4EJxrzIJQ_y5Q$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!W5lI6GeP2SfEOb3t3-ZQPS3r1EMH8g4Wi_AdrEY1fzAWW_vkXw8ATi-Jc4EJxrzSJUkfhA$ On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 3:38 AM mike cole wrote: > I read your Sorokiin note out of order, David. > > So sociocultural has democratic socialist origins that map the discontent > that emerged in Madrid. > mike > > On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 9:20 AM WEBSTER, DAVID S. < > d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk> wrote: > >> Sorokin was also Prime Minister Kerensky's (Feb revolution) private >> secretary. After the October revolution he got involved in a bit of hapless >> counter-revolutionary activity and was condemned to the firing squad. >> Through the intervention of Lenin, Sorokin was offered a deal, as a >> prominent liberal figure. If he renounced, in an open published letter, his >> opposition to the Bolsheviks and made no further attacks, then he could >> take up his position as a sociologist at Moscow University. Lenin's logic >> was that Sorokin gave up his opposition, this would make it easier for >> other of the liberal/professionals to do likewise. Needless to say Sorokin >> kept up his criticism of the Bolsheviks but no action was taken against >> him. However when Lenin suffered a stroke and was in a coma, Sorokin, >> wisely, took himself and family off to America. >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Greg Thompson >> *Sent:* 15 May 2020 15:48 >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >> >> Mike, >> Just wondering if you ever heard of Pitirim Alexandrovich Sorokin's >> (Sociology, Harvard) use of "sociocultural" pre-WWII? >> Any recollections? >> -greg >> (and in case anyone is interested in this Russian-born interdisciplinary >> sociologist who became the first head of the Sociology Department at >> Harvard (and used the term "sociocultural" in 1937): >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.suz.uzh.ch/dam/jcr:00000000-36d7-41d4-0000-000064b51e55/simpson_sorokin.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!W5lI6GeP2SfEOb3t3-ZQPS3r1EMH8g4Wi_AdrEY1fzAWW_vkXw8ATi-Jc4EJxrxEaRqMbA$ >> >> ) >> >> On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:20 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Mike tells me that my account is indeed "pretty muddled," so please do >> not quote anything from that email, and do not ascribe any of it to Mike. >> The chapter Mike sent around, and Jim Wertsch's book, are the places to go >> for reliable information. >> >> Sorry. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 15/05/2020 11:24 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have >> garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. >> >> Jim Wertsch said: >> >> Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I >> consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology >> and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches >> that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 >> book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices >> of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about >> the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? >> or ?cultural-historical.? >> >> Mike Cole told me: >> >> In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term >> "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's >> ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian >> followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, >> apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets >> prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a >> sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what >> he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in >> Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists >> had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term >> "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like >> Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted >> to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT >> emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the >> various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the >> Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. >> CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being >> used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History >> in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> I should have reported progress with my question. >> >> Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between >> these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the >> various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin >> referred to on his academia.edu >> >> page for us all to read. >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!W5lI6GeP2SfEOb3t3-ZQPS3r1EMH8g4Wi_AdrEY1fzAWW_vkXw8ATi-Jc4EJxrxPHUkvlg$ >> >> >> As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: >> >> Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see >> this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity >> multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what >> the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for >> analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov >> points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components >> that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those >> we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as >> consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics >> and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human >> neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is >> the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the >> components more than others and he was acting nominally as a >> psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these >> components. >> >> I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am >> talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does >> not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in >> motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. >> >> While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different >> concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in >> being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. >> >> BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social >> sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication >> with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This >> project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. >> >> Chuck >> ---- >> ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? >> ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? >> Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. >> The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. >> History will judge. >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!W5lI6GeP2SfEOb3t3-ZQPS3r1EMH8g4Wi_AdrEY1fzAWW_vkXw8ATi-Jc4EJxrwfz41xOQ$ >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!W5lI6GeP2SfEOb3t3-ZQPS3r1EMH8g4Wi_AdrEY1fzAWW_vkXw8ATi-Jc4EJxrxTin2bwA$ >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!W5lI6GeP2SfEOb3t3-ZQPS3r1EMH8g4Wi_AdrEY1fzAWW_vkXw8ATi-Jc4EJxrwtz6sSCg$ >> >> >> >> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >> Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. >> >> While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any >> value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!W5lI6GeP2SfEOb3t3-ZQPS3r1EMH8g4Wi_AdrEY1fzAWW_vkXw8ATi-Jc4EJxrzWaeZz1Q$ >> "Pros >> and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" >> >> As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not >> so sure the cons outweigh the pros here. >> >> But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could >> Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If >> so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? >> I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm >> more outsider than insider and don't really know. >> >> Thank you for any insight. >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer >> wrote: >> >> I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. >> >> Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this >> book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their >> view it?s the best term: >> >> Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). *Sociocultural >> studies of mind.* Cambridge University Press. >> >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the >> term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word >> "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is >> the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices >> of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action >> " >> published by Harvard University Press in 1991. >> >> Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context >> dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this >> book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and >> artefacts mediating action. >> >> Thanks again to all >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> Andy-- >> >> Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!W5lI6GeP2SfEOb3t3-ZQPS3r1EMH8g4Wi_AdrEY1fzAWW_vkXw8ATi-Jc4EJxrwwu-bqfA$ >> >> Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the >> years you'll get better granularity in the document search. >> On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click >> on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. >> >> dk >> >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!W5lI6GeP2SfEOb3t3-ZQPS3r1EMH8g4Wi_AdrEY1fzAWW_vkXw8ATi-Jc4EJxrzIJQ_y5Q$ >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * >> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!W5lI6GeP2SfEOb3t3-ZQPS3r1EMH8g4Wi_AdrEY1fzAWW_vkXw8ATi-Jc4EJxrzSJUkfhA$ >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer >> wrote: >> >> The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in >> English is this: >> >> A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero >> >> In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press >> >> Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use >> the term ?sociocultural? frequently. >> >> The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, >> and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study >> of the Mexican. >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >> On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How >> do we find out who wrote what in 1988? >> >> And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of >> seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, >> caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing >> higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in >> interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> Andy: >> >> I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but >> here's what I got. >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!W5lI6GeP2SfEOb3t3-ZQPS3r1EMH8g4Wi_AdrEY1fzAWW_vkXw8ATi-Jc4EJxrwFv3hgKA$ >> " >> width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 >> frameborder=0 scrolling=no >> >> So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred >> to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the >> only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick >> after 1992 is Vygotsky though. >> >> Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very >> different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the >> trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!W5lI6GeP2SfEOb3t3-ZQPS3r1EMH8g4Wi_AdrEY1fzAWW_vkXw8ATi-Jc4EJxrzIJQ_y5Q$ >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * >> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!W5lI6GeP2SfEOb3t3-ZQPS3r1EMH8g4Wi_AdrEY1fzAWW_vkXw8ATi-Jc4EJxrzSJUkfhA$ >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" >> originated? >> >> Andy >> -- >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!W5lI6GeP2SfEOb3t3-ZQPS3r1EMH8g4Wi_AdrEY1fzAWW_vkXw8ATi-Jc4EJxrx3NC0VuA$ >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!W5lI6GeP2SfEOb3t3-ZQPS3r1EMH8g4Wi_AdrEY1fzAWW_vkXw8ATi-Jc4EJxryqf9IZiQ$ >> >> > > > -- > > ?It is education which should play the central role in the transformation > of man - this road of conscious social formation of new generations, the > basic form to alter the historical human type. *New generations and new > forms of their education represent the main route which history will follow > whilst creating the new type of man. * Vygotsky (1932?; 1994, p.81). > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other > members of LCHC, visit > lchc.ucsd.edu. For archival materials and a narrative history of the > research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200516/ae01453c/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri May 15 16:53:19 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 16:53:19 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> Message-ID: That's so interesting, David. I was simply generalizing from my limited knowledge of Kerensky. Here we have the cult of rugged individualism, evangelical zeal, and old fashioned racism running amok. Extraordinarily dangerous. My nightmares about 1938 refuse to go away. mike On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 4:46 PM David Kellogg wrote: > I don't think I would call Sorokin a "democratic socialist", Mike. He was > a member of the Social Revolutionists--the "Narodniki" who tried to > assassinate Lenin. But then he became a moral conservative, rather in the > style of Solzhenitsyn, and apparently Mike Pence is really big on his > writings; he claimed that Sorokin demonstrated that the collapse of > civilizations follow directly on the collapse of "one man one woman" > families. > > Au fait, we are having a bit of a spike in Covid 19 cases here in Seoul at > present. For once it is not linked to churches but rather to clubhopping in > Itaewon (where you can apparently buy a ticket to one club and get free > drinks and free entry in another five). Clubbing, like choir practice, is > very conducive to shouting in each other's faces. (So are families, > though--some "cognitive deficits" are not even differences.) > > (Even I have mellowed as a result of the pandemic. I had to record a > lecture yesterday and when I played it back I noticed that for the first > time in my life I don't sound like I am addressing a charging battalion of > riot police. But maybe that is just professorship and not prophylaxis....) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!RLs-k3esuO4Il92lWuXasoUJ57Fbe9zHqAtddfk9uq0MEWcXFu3c2SPxnOy81o0Rj4jeng$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RLs-k3esuO4Il92lWuXasoUJ57Fbe9zHqAtddfk9uq0MEWcXFu3c2SPxnOy81o2_hQ2pLQ$ > > > > > On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 3:38 AM mike cole wrote: > >> I read your Sorokiin note out of order, David. >> >> So sociocultural has democratic socialist origins that map the discontent >> that emerged in Madrid. >> mike >> >> On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 9:20 AM WEBSTER, DAVID S. < >> d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk> wrote: >> >>> Sorokin was also Prime Minister Kerensky's (Feb revolution) private >>> secretary. After the October revolution he got involved in a bit of hapless >>> counter-revolutionary activity and was condemned to the firing squad. >>> Through the intervention of Lenin, Sorokin was offered a deal, as a >>> prominent liberal figure. If he renounced, in an open published letter, his >>> opposition to the Bolsheviks and made no further attacks, then he could >>> take up his position as a sociologist at Moscow University. Lenin's logic >>> was that Sorokin gave up his opposition, this would make it easier for >>> other of the liberal/professionals to do likewise. Needless to say Sorokin >>> kept up his criticism of the Bolsheviks but no action was taken against >>> him. However when Lenin suffered a stroke and was in a coma, Sorokin, >>> wisely, took himself and family off to America. >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of Greg Thompson >>> *Sent:* 15 May 2020 15:48 >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >>> >>> Mike, >>> Just wondering if you ever heard of Pitirim Alexandrovich Sorokin's >>> (Sociology, Harvard) use of "sociocultural" pre-WWII? >>> Any recollections? >>> -greg >>> (and in case anyone is interested in this Russian-born interdisciplinary >>> sociologist who became the first head of the Sociology Department at >>> Harvard (and used the term "sociocultural" in 1937): >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.suz.uzh.ch/dam/jcr:00000000-36d7-41d4-0000-000064b51e55/simpson_sorokin.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!RLs-k3esuO4Il92lWuXasoUJ57Fbe9zHqAtddfk9uq0MEWcXFu3c2SPxnOy81o35o_rC6A$ >>> >>> ) >>> >>> On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:20 PM Andy Blunden >>> wrote: >>> >>> Mike tells me that my account is indeed "pretty muddled," so please do >>> not quote anything from that email, and do not ascribe any of it to Mike. >>> The chapter Mike sent around, and Jim Wertsch's book, are the places to go >>> for reliable information. >>> >>> Sorry. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 15/05/2020 11:24 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have >>> garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. >>> >>> Jim Wertsch said: >>> >>> Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I >>> consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology >>> and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches >>> that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 >>> book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices >>> of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about >>> the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? >>> or ?cultural-historical.? >>> >>> Mike Cole told me: >>> >>> In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term >>> "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's >>> ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian >>> followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, >>> apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets >>> prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a >>> sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what >>> he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in >>> Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists >>> had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term >>> "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like >>> Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted >>> to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT >>> emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the >>> various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the >>> Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. >>> CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being >>> used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History >>> in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> I should have reported progress with my question. >>> >>> Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between >>> these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the >>> various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin >>> referred to on his academia.edu >>> >>> page for us all to read. >>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!RLs-k3esuO4Il92lWuXasoUJ57Fbe9zHqAtddfk9uq0MEWcXFu3c2SPxnOy81o2NfbT79A$ >>> >>> >>> As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: >>> >>> Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see >>> this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity >>> multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what >>> the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for >>> analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov >>> points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components >>> that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those >>> we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as >>> consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics >>> and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human >>> neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is >>> the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the >>> components more than others and he was acting nominally as a >>> psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these >>> components. >>> >>> I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am >>> talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does >>> not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in >>> motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. >>> >>> While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different >>> concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in >>> being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. >>> >>> BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social >>> sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication >>> with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This >>> project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. >>> >>> Chuck >>> ---- >>> ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? >>> ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? >>> Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. >>> The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. >>> History will judge. >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!RLs-k3esuO4Il92lWuXasoUJ57Fbe9zHqAtddfk9uq0MEWcXFu3c2SPxnOy81o0yXGISwQ$ >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!RLs-k3esuO4Il92lWuXasoUJ57Fbe9zHqAtddfk9uq0MEWcXFu3c2SPxnOy81o3wvPzgNg$ >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!RLs-k3esuO4Il92lWuXasoUJ57Fbe9zHqAtddfk9uq0MEWcXFu3c2SPxnOy81o3wUcdjWA$ >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra >>> wrote: >>> >>> Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. >>> >>> While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds >>> any value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!RLs-k3esuO4Il92lWuXasoUJ57Fbe9zHqAtddfk9uq0MEWcXFu3c2SPxnOy81o1U758UHg$ >>> "Pros >>> and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" >>> >>> As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not >>> so sure the cons outweigh the pros here. >>> >>> But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could >>> Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If >>> so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? >>> I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm >>> more outsider than insider and don't really know. >>> >>> Thank you for any insight. >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer >>> wrote: >>> >>> I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, >>> Andy. >>> >>> Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this >>> book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their >>> view it?s the best term: >>> >>> Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). *Sociocultural >>> studies of mind.* Cambridge University Press. >>> >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the >>> term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word >>> "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is >>> the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices >>> of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action >>> " >>> published by Harvard University Press in 1991. >>> >>> Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with >>> "context dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title >>> of this book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs >>> and artefacts mediating action. >>> >>> Thanks again to all >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>> >>> Andy-- >>> >>> Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!RLs-k3esuO4Il92lWuXasoUJ57Fbe9zHqAtddfk9uq0MEWcXFu3c2SPxnOy81o3yVi19og$ >>> >>> Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the >>> years you'll get better granularity in the document search. >>> On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you >>> click on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. >>> >>> dk >>> >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!RLs-k3esuO4Il92lWuXasoUJ57Fbe9zHqAtddfk9uq0MEWcXFu3c2SPxnOy81o0Rj4jeng$ >>> >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* * Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RLs-k3esuO4Il92lWuXasoUJ57Fbe9zHqAtddfk9uq0MEWcXFu3c2SPxnOy81o2_hQ2pLQ$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer >>> wrote: >>> >>> The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in >>> English is this: >>> >>> A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero >>> >>> In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press >>> >>> Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish >>> use the term ?sociocultural? frequently. >>> >>> The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, >>> and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study >>> of the Mexican. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. >>> How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? >>> >>> And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work >>> of seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, >>> caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing >>> higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in >>> interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: >>> >>> Andy: >>> >>> I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but >>> here's what I got. >>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!RLs-k3esuO4Il92lWuXasoUJ57Fbe9zHqAtddfk9uq0MEWcXFu3c2SPxnOy81o1HslJtdA$ >>> " >>> width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 >>> frameborder=0 scrolling=no >>> >>> So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred >>> to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the >>> only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick >>> after 1992 is Vygotsky though. >>> >>> Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very >>> different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the >>> trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!RLs-k3esuO4Il92lWuXasoUJ57Fbe9zHqAtddfk9uq0MEWcXFu3c2SPxnOy81o0Rj4jeng$ >>> >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* * Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RLs-k3esuO4Il92lWuXasoUJ57Fbe9zHqAtddfk9uq0MEWcXFu3c2SPxnOy81o2_hQ2pLQ$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden >>> wrote: >>> >>> Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural >>> psychology" originated? >>> >>> Andy >>> -- >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!RLs-k3esuO4Il92lWuXasoUJ57Fbe9zHqAtddfk9uq0MEWcXFu3c2SPxnOy81o0piBkPYQ$ >>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!RLs-k3esuO4Il92lWuXasoUJ57Fbe9zHqAtddfk9uq0MEWcXFu3c2SPxnOy81o2o5eHDmQ$ >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> ?It is education which should play the central role in the transformation >> of man - this road of conscious social formation of new generations, the >> basic form to alter the historical human type. *New generations and new >> forms of their education represent the main route which history will follow >> whilst creating the new type of man. * Vygotsky (1932?; 1994, p.81). >> --------------------------------------------------- >> For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other >> members of LCHC, visit >> lchc.ucsd.edu. For archival materials and a narrative history of the >> research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> >> -- ?It is education which should play the central role in the transformation of man - this road of conscious social formation of new generations, the basic form to alter the historical human type. *New generations and new forms of their education represent the main route which history will follow whilst creating the new type of man. * Vygotsky (1932?; 1994, p.81). --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For archival materials and a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200515/c03a812b/attachment.html From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Fri May 15 18:34:22 2020 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 19:34:22 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> Message-ID: David, South Korea's "spike" in Covid-19 cases is America's early afternoon yawn. We are currently celebrating how we have "flattened the curve" since we are "down" around 25,000 new cases PER DAY, and the powers-that-be have decided that it is time to open everything back up (folks in my neighborhood are entirely back to normal life, no social distancing, no masks (Hitler), no precautions). SK hasn't even had that many cases since the beginning of the outbreak! By the numbers: SK:11K individuals infected and 260 dead U.S.: 1.4 million cases and about 88k dead (US population is about 6x that of SK). Rugged individualism indeed. -greg On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 5:46 PM David Kellogg wrote: > I don't think I would call Sorokin a "democratic socialist", Mike. He was > a member of the Social Revolutionists--the "Narodniki" who tried to > assassinate Lenin. But then he became a moral conservative, rather in the > style of Solzhenitsyn, and apparently Mike Pence is really big on his > writings; he claimed that Sorokin demonstrated that the collapse of > civilizations follow directly on the collapse of "one man one woman" > families. > > Au fait, we are having a bit of a spike in Covid 19 cases here in Seoul at > present. For once it is not linked to churches but rather to clubhopping in > Itaewon (where you can apparently buy a ticket to one club and get free > drinks and free entry in another five). Clubbing, like choir practice, is > very conducive to shouting in each other's faces. (So are families, > though--some "cognitive deficits" are not even differences.) > > (Even I have mellowed as a result of the pandemic. I had to record a > lecture yesterday and when I played it back I noticed that for the first > time in my life I don't sound like I am addressing a charging battalion of > riot police. But maybe that is just professorship and not prophylaxis....) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!TPSD9ZtnWXxPxwSH_cR-brfUFLtjF6u1FflrTLBh_wFOM6E2eDgY9uXO2ONF7z9QLwhnyA$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TPSD9ZtnWXxPxwSH_cR-brfUFLtjF6u1FflrTLBh_wFOM6E2eDgY9uXO2ONF7z-ap-iI5w$ > > > > > On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 3:38 AM mike cole wrote: > >> I read your Sorokiin note out of order, David. >> >> So sociocultural has democratic socialist origins that map the discontent >> that emerged in Madrid. >> mike >> >> On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 9:20 AM WEBSTER, DAVID S. < >> d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk> wrote: >> >>> Sorokin was also Prime Minister Kerensky's (Feb revolution) private >>> secretary. After the October revolution he got involved in a bit of hapless >>> counter-revolutionary activity and was condemned to the firing squad. >>> Through the intervention of Lenin, Sorokin was offered a deal, as a >>> prominent liberal figure. If he renounced, in an open published letter, his >>> opposition to the Bolsheviks and made no further attacks, then he could >>> take up his position as a sociologist at Moscow University. Lenin's logic >>> was that Sorokin gave up his opposition, this would make it easier for >>> other of the liberal/professionals to do likewise. Needless to say Sorokin >>> kept up his criticism of the Bolsheviks but no action was taken against >>> him. However when Lenin suffered a stroke and was in a coma, Sorokin, >>> wisely, took himself and family off to America. >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of Greg Thompson >>> *Sent:* 15 May 2020 15:48 >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >>> >>> Mike, >>> Just wondering if you ever heard of Pitirim Alexandrovich Sorokin's >>> (Sociology, Harvard) use of "sociocultural" pre-WWII? >>> Any recollections? >>> -greg >>> (and in case anyone is interested in this Russian-born interdisciplinary >>> sociologist who became the first head of the Sociology Department at >>> Harvard (and used the term "sociocultural" in 1937): >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.suz.uzh.ch/dam/jcr:00000000-36d7-41d4-0000-000064b51e55/simpson_sorokin.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!TPSD9ZtnWXxPxwSH_cR-brfUFLtjF6u1FflrTLBh_wFOM6E2eDgY9uXO2ONF7z9XTNo_RQ$ >>> >>> ) >>> >>> On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:20 PM Andy Blunden >>> wrote: >>> >>> Mike tells me that my account is indeed "pretty muddled," so please do >>> not quote anything from that email, and do not ascribe any of it to Mike. >>> The chapter Mike sent around, and Jim Wertsch's book, are the places to go >>> for reliable information. >>> >>> Sorry. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 15/05/2020 11:24 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have >>> garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. >>> >>> Jim Wertsch said: >>> >>> Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I >>> consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology >>> and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches >>> that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 >>> book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices >>> of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about >>> the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? >>> or ?cultural-historical.? >>> >>> Mike Cole told me: >>> >>> In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term >>> "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's >>> ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian >>> followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, >>> apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets >>> prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a >>> sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what >>> he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in >>> Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists >>> had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term >>> "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like >>> Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted >>> to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT >>> emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the >>> various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the >>> Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. >>> CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being >>> used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History >>> in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> I should have reported progress with my question. >>> >>> Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between >>> these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the >>> various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin >>> referred to on his academia.edu >>> >>> page for us all to read. >>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!TPSD9ZtnWXxPxwSH_cR-brfUFLtjF6u1FflrTLBh_wFOM6E2eDgY9uXO2ONF7z-p8NxWsQ$ >>> >>> >>> As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: >>> >>> Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see >>> this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity >>> multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what >>> the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for >>> analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov >>> points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components >>> that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those >>> we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as >>> consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics >>> and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human >>> neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is >>> the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the >>> components more than others and he was acting nominally as a >>> psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these >>> components. >>> >>> I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am >>> talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does >>> not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in >>> motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. >>> >>> While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different >>> concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in >>> being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. >>> >>> BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social >>> sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication >>> with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This >>> project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. >>> >>> Chuck >>> ---- >>> ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? >>> ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? >>> Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. >>> The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. >>> History will judge. >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!TPSD9ZtnWXxPxwSH_cR-brfUFLtjF6u1FflrTLBh_wFOM6E2eDgY9uXO2ONF7z9pTOutlg$ >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!TPSD9ZtnWXxPxwSH_cR-brfUFLtjF6u1FflrTLBh_wFOM6E2eDgY9uXO2ONF7z-FJrn1eA$ >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!TPSD9ZtnWXxPxwSH_cR-brfUFLtjF6u1FflrTLBh_wFOM6E2eDgY9uXO2ONF7z8j-Gfzdg$ >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra >>> wrote: >>> >>> Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. >>> >>> While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds >>> any value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!TPSD9ZtnWXxPxwSH_cR-brfUFLtjF6u1FflrTLBh_wFOM6E2eDgY9uXO2ONF7z8sNjAk0w$ >>> "Pros >>> and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" >>> >>> As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not >>> so sure the cons outweigh the pros here. >>> >>> But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could >>> Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If >>> so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? >>> I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm >>> more outsider than insider and don't really know. >>> >>> Thank you for any insight. >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer >>> wrote: >>> >>> I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, >>> Andy. >>> >>> Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this >>> book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their >>> view it?s the best term: >>> >>> Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). *Sociocultural >>> studies of mind.* Cambridge University Press. >>> >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the >>> term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word >>> "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is >>> the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices >>> of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action >>> " >>> published by Harvard University Press in 1991. >>> >>> Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with >>> "context dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title >>> of this book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs >>> and artefacts mediating action. >>> >>> Thanks again to all >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>> >>> Andy-- >>> >>> Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!TPSD9ZtnWXxPxwSH_cR-brfUFLtjF6u1FflrTLBh_wFOM6E2eDgY9uXO2ONF7z-5IhcwFA$ >>> >>> Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the >>> years you'll get better granularity in the document search. >>> On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you >>> click on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. >>> >>> dk >>> >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!TPSD9ZtnWXxPxwSH_cR-brfUFLtjF6u1FflrTLBh_wFOM6E2eDgY9uXO2ONF7z9QLwhnyA$ >>> >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* * Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TPSD9ZtnWXxPxwSH_cR-brfUFLtjF6u1FflrTLBh_wFOM6E2eDgY9uXO2ONF7z-ap-iI5w$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer >>> wrote: >>> >>> The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in >>> English is this: >>> >>> A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero >>> >>> In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press >>> >>> Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish >>> use the term ?sociocultural? frequently. >>> >>> The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, >>> and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study >>> of the Mexican. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. >>> How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? >>> >>> And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work >>> of seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, >>> caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing >>> higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in >>> interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: >>> >>> Andy: >>> >>> I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but >>> here's what I got. >>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!TPSD9ZtnWXxPxwSH_cR-brfUFLtjF6u1FflrTLBh_wFOM6E2eDgY9uXO2ONF7z8qh2HS_w$ >>> " >>> width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 >>> frameborder=0 scrolling=no >>> >>> So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred >>> to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the >>> only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick >>> after 1992 is Vygotsky though. >>> >>> Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very >>> different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the >>> trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!TPSD9ZtnWXxPxwSH_cR-brfUFLtjF6u1FflrTLBh_wFOM6E2eDgY9uXO2ONF7z9QLwhnyA$ >>> >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* * Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TPSD9ZtnWXxPxwSH_cR-brfUFLtjF6u1FflrTLBh_wFOM6E2eDgY9uXO2ONF7z-ap-iI5w$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden >>> wrote: >>> >>> Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural >>> psychology" originated? >>> >>> Andy >>> -- >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!TPSD9ZtnWXxPxwSH_cR-brfUFLtjF6u1FflrTLBh_wFOM6E2eDgY9uXO2ONF7z-qSC1w_g$ >>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!TPSD9ZtnWXxPxwSH_cR-brfUFLtjF6u1FflrTLBh_wFOM6E2eDgY9uXO2ONF7z872iJLKg$ >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> ?It is education which should play the central role in the transformation >> of man - this road of conscious social formation of new generations, the >> basic form to alter the historical human type. *New generations and new >> forms of their education represent the main route which history will follow >> whilst creating the new type of man. * Vygotsky (1932?; 1994, p.81). >> --------------------------------------------------- >> For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other >> members of LCHC, visit >> lchc.ucsd.edu. For archival materials and a narrative history of the >> research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> >> -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!TPSD9ZtnWXxPxwSH_cR-brfUFLtjF6u1FflrTLBh_wFOM6E2eDgY9uXO2ONF7z-qSC1w_g$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!TPSD9ZtnWXxPxwSH_cR-brfUFLtjF6u1FflrTLBh_wFOM6E2eDgY9uXO2ONF7z872iJLKg$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200515/03f942f5/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Fri May 15 18:49:33 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 11:49:33 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> Message-ID: <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> Annalisa, I have only been talking and writing about Vygotsky and co. since about 2000 and have been openly Marxist since the 1960s (indeed, Vygotsky is core to how I understand Marx) and never had any reason not to be. But it is true that when Mike first went to Moscow, it was at the height of the Cold War, and when he and others first brought Vygotsky's ideas to the USA, there was a lot of resistance to their Marxist content. I think the naming issue only arose as Vygotsky and the others began to build a real following. The issues with the choice of name change over the years, as you say. I prefer" CHAT," but sometimes I use "Cultural Psychology" and sometimes I use "Activity Theory" depending on the context. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Andy, et al, > > I sort of came to this a little late in the thread, but I > can offer that Vera John-Steiner didn't mind > "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian theory, but as I > learn more about the word (thank you Mike), I can see how > once a word is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard > for the association to be broken. > > I think it's that way with words all the time coming and > going out of favor, or meanings shifting, like the game of > telephone, but across generations and cultures. > > Might I contribute to the discussion by asking whether the > use of "sociocultural" was also a means of making the > theories more available in the West (at least in the US). > It seems there was redscare (you are welcome read the > double entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as you like) > prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the Marxist > "brand" to access the actual theories on child > development? In other words, to depoliticize the science? > > I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but as time > passes, I can see its problems. > > For me, I had preferred the word because historical was > always a given for me. In concern of the here and now, the > real difficulty I had thought was understanding the > social- how interactions between the child and the > caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the -cultural, > how the culture impacts thought, those things are more of > the micro level, but also sociocultural, how the two also > can interact and influence one another and that combined > bears its own signature on the mind and its development.? > As far as History (capital H) that is sort of difficult to > measure when we are talking about child development as > there is very little history that a child has, unless we > are talking about genetics, I suppose. > > Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect and am > enriched by the discourse in which we now we find > ourselves immersed about it so thanks to all for this. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy > Blunden > *Sent:* Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > *? [EXTERNAL]* > > ** > > In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to > Mike if I have garbled the long and complex story he told. > I have done my best. > > Jim Wertsch said: > > Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of > this, but I consciously started to use this in order > to bring in cultural anthropology and also to avoid > the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches > that I was building from.? I believe I started > highlighting it in my 1985 book on Vygotsky, and by > 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices of > the Mind.? It is not a term used by Soviet scholars > when talking about the Vygotsky tradition.? Instead, > the terms there were ?socio-historical? or > ?cultural-historical.? > > Mike Cole told me: > > In addition to what has been said on line ... > initially, the term "sociocultural" was used as a term > of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's ideas in the > Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his > Russian followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility > to Vygotsky came to a head, apparently, in 1986 when > ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets > prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim > Wertsch, who had been on a sabbatical year, and had > been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what he > saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a > conference in Spain where a group of Spanish > Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists had > ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and > they used the term "sociocultural" for their approach, > meaning something like Vygotsky+postcolonialism. > Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted to > term, meaning to distinguish himself from the > Soviet-influence. CHAT emerged as a term a little > later in an effort to unite the followers of the > various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did > not embrace the Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian > followers and stuck with Vygotsky. CHAT includes the H > for History, because in all the various terms being > used at that time, there was no attention to the > important place of History in theory, and it was Mike > who insisted on its inclusion. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> I should have reported progress with my question. >> >> Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped >> me and between these two I have a very rich history of >> the usage of this term and the various nuances it >> acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin >> referred to on his academia.edu page for us all to read. >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!TlyHZFzEZ7SUE8GqN8__jv7a2SAk9Q_jiqAbrNCH5Bf1I-_gLIHGg1AbVtGJm25bNWltug$ >> >> >> As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of >> wisdom. Thank you. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: >>> Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. >>> The way I see this issue is that?Vygotskian work >>> attempts?to understand human activity >>> multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying >>> to reunite what the emergence of various parochial >>> disciplines have pulled?apart for analysis of the >>> separate dimensions).? The different terms that Veresov >>> points out as contending are simply foregrounding those >>> sets of components that are most salient to the >>> particular analyst at that moment.? To those we might >>> add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such >>> as consciousness and language and experience and >>> mediation (and even economics and human knowledge?and >>> education lurk in the background, as well as human >>> neurodiversity as well as materialities of the >>> experienced world).? That is the wonder of Vygotsky, >>> even though he may have developed some of the components >>> more than others and he was acting nominally as a >>> psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of >>> all these components. >>> >>> I therefore use different conjunctions of terms >>> depending on what I am talking about, and I see activity >>> as the overarching term--though this does not >>> necessarily mean triangles all the time.? Rather >>> activity is humans in motion, mobilizing multiple >>> internal and external resources in situations. >>> >>> While I would like some stability in terms, right now >>> our different concerns and issues leave salience >>> mutable. And I am not yet?comfortable in being >>> terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient >>> saliencies. >>> >>> BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at >>> reintegrating the social sciences in the pragmatist >>> project which has at times been in communication with >>> the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically >>> Human").? This project also never settled on a coherent >>> set of terms and stable concepts. >>> >>> Chuck >>> ---- >>> ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? >>> ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? >>> Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. >>> The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. >>> History will judge. >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!TlyHZFzEZ7SUE8GqN8__jv7a2SAk9Q_jiqAbrNCH5Bf1I-_gLIHGg1AbVtGJm24wdquw4w$ >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!TlyHZFzEZ7SUE8GqN8__jv7a2SAk9Q_jiqAbrNCH5Bf1I-_gLIHGg1AbVtGJm26d06BNTw$ >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!TlyHZFzEZ7SUE8GqN8__jv7a2SAk9Q_jiqAbrNCH5Bf1I-_gLIHGg1AbVtGJm27spT_dhQ$ >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Interesting question (and follow-ups) here.? Thanks, >>> Andy. >>> >>> While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, >>> 2-minute excerpt adds any value: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!TlyHZFzEZ7SUE8GqN8__jv7a2SAk9Q_jiqAbrNCH5Bf1I-_gLIHGg1AbVtGJm24AVOsEow$ >>> ?"Pros >>> and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" >>> >>> As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main >>> point, but I'm not so sure the cons outweigh the >>> pros here. >>> >>> But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus >>> was formed -- could Vygotsky's theory (and >>> methodology), in fact, be definitively defined?? If >>> so, would the?benefits of doing so outweigh the >>> constraints? >>> I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe >>> even stale, but I'm more outsider than insider and >>> don't really know. >>> >>> Thank you for any insight. >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer >>> > wrote: >>> >>> I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier >>> than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. >>> >>> Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in >>> the introduction to this book he, along with >>> Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in >>> their view it?s the best term: >>> >>> Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. >>> (Eds.). (1995). /Sociocultural studies of mind./ >>> Cambridge University Press. >>> >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>>> On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went >>>> into the mix. Indeed, the term seems to have >>>> migrated from Spanish to English and the word >>>> "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it >>>> seems that Jim Wertsch is the fellow who >>>> triggered the explosion in "sociocultural >>>> psychology" with "Voices of the mind : a >>>> sociocultural approach to mediated action >>>> " >>>> published by Harvard University Press in 1991. >>>> >>>> Although "sociocultural" seems to be most >>>> widely associated with "context dependence," >>>> Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the >>>> title of this book makes it clear that for him >>>> "context" referred to the signs and artefacts >>>> mediating action. >>>> >>>> Thanks again to all >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>> Andy-- >>>>> >>>>> Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!TlyHZFzEZ7SUE8GqN8__jv7a2SAk9Q_jiqAbrNCH5Bf1I-_gLIHGg1AbVtGJm25cw4rS7Q$ >>>>> >>>>> Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural >>>>> psychology". If you set the years you'll get >>>>> better granularity in the document search. >>>>> On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some >>>>> dates in blue--when you click on them, you >>>>> should get a list of all the books used in the >>>>> search. >>>>> >>>>> dk >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>> >>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A >>>>> manual and a manifesto. >>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!TlyHZFzEZ7SUE8GqN8__jv7a2SAk9Q_jiqAbrNCH5Bf1I-_gLIHGg1AbVtGJm267mAeuCA$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >>>>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: >>>>> Foundations of Pedology/" >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TlyHZFzEZ7SUE8GqN8__jv7a2SAk9Q_jiqAbrNCH5Bf1I-_gLIHGg1AbVtGJm26lqpufAg$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer >>>>> >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The earliest use of the term >>>>> ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in >>>>> English is this: >>>>> >>>>> A?sociocultural psychology, by?Rogelio >>>>> Diaz-Guerrero >>>>> >>>>> In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press >>>>> >>>>> Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists >>>>> whose publications in Spanish use the term >>>>> ?sociocultural? frequently. >>>>> >>>>> The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is >>>>> available in Google books, >>>>> and?Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but >>>>> titled The psychological study of the Mexican. >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>>> >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> That graph from Google shows that usage >>>>>> of the term took off in 1988. How do we >>>>>> find out who wrote what in 1988? >>>>>> >>>>>> And Google also tell us that >>>>>> "Socioculturaltheory grew from the work >>>>>> of seminalpsychologistLev Vygotsky, who >>>>>> believed that parents, caregivers, peers, >>>>>> and the culture at large were responsible >>>>>> for developing higher-order functions. >>>>>> According to Vygotsky, learning has its >>>>>> basis in interacting with other people," >>>>>> together with a reference. So that is nice. >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>> >>>>>> Home Page >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>>>> Andy: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I did a Google N-gram on it. You >>>>>>> probably thought of doing this too, but >>>>>>> here's what I got. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!TlyHZFzEZ7SUE8GqN8__jv7a2SAk9Q_jiqAbrNCH5Bf1I-_gLIHGg1AbVtGJm25Hv5Q5AQ$ >>>>>>> " >>>>>>> width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 >>>>>>> marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 >>>>>>> frameborder=0 scrolling=no >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So it all starts around 1960. At first I >>>>>>> thought this probably referred to the >>>>>>> Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and >>>>>>> Language", but when I looked the only >>>>>>> books that used the term were sports >>>>>>> psychology books. The big uptick after >>>>>>> 1992 is Vygotsky though. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course, this is all English only. I >>>>>>> am sure you will find very different >>>>>>> results in German, where "cultural >>>>>>> historical psychology" is the trend >>>>>>> identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and >>>>>>> neo-Kantianism generally. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>>>> >>>>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: >>>>>>> A manual and a manifesto. >>>>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!TlyHZFzEZ7SUE8GqN8__jv7a2SAk9Q_jiqAbrNCH5Bf1I-_gLIHGg1AbVtGJm267mAeuCA$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: >>>>>>> /L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ >>>>>>> /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TlyHZFzEZ7SUE8GqN8__jv7a2SAk9Q_jiqAbrNCH5Bf1I-_gLIHGg1AbVtGJm26lqpufAg$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy >>>>>>> Blunden >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Can anyone tell me when and with >>>>>>> whom the term "sociocultural >>>>>>> psychology" originated? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Home Page >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200516/bf8fd311/attachment.html From d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk Sat May 16 01:06:31 2020 From: d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk (WEBSTER, DAVID S.) Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 08:06:31 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala In-Reply-To: References: <7CF68C44-2A31-4E98-8DE7-11FC0B8AE8E3@gmail.com> <002801d62a7d$417b5a50$c4720ef0$@smu.ac.za> <23CB0D56-30A3-497F-AF5F-4E4F65721AD7@gmail.com> , <0BF7D8AD-6F6F-4DCB-87D4-BA2EE8A9E05F@gmail.com>, , , Message-ID: Morning Annalisa, Sorry, but I think you are clutching at a very few straws in the wind when it comes to Druids, and even more so with Arthur and Merlin, whose canonical form originates with high medieval romance fiction, e.g. Geoffrey of Monmouth's (1095-1155) History of the Kings of Britton (1136) and which starts, no less, from the arrival of refugees from the sack of Troy. The problem with folk stories is they are just that, folk stories, and which folks are at issue. Britton (The Isles of the Mighty!), and from well before the Romans was often settled from elsewhere in continental Europe (as witness by step-change in material culture). As for the autochthonic Brits circa the last, ice age (12-13000 yrs ago) and who, for obvious reasons, were also incomers, well, who knows. Regards David ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 15 May 2020 21:56 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Hi David, Alas that Capital H-history were only based upon the conquest of the victors. Fortunately folk stories are carried down in a verbal tradition. (Another power of speech!) We do know something of the Druids, though I agree with you, not as much as we might like. The same can be said about the Cathars. Few know of them either, even today. Many cultures of the past have been decimated and from that we have inherited a distorted lens by which to examine them. Poor us! We know of the Ancient Greeks, the Ancient Egyptians too, because of someone writing it all down and the parchment and stone lasting through the ages, in some cases not that well, for us to piece together bit by bit, translate and reflect. Only to argue theories of what once was. The Vedic culture, interestingly, is one ancient culture that has remained intact, unlike the culture of the Ancient Greeks or Ancient Egyptians. One reason that I find it so captivating because it provides me an unadulterated view of how the ancients (of that time and place) thought. By the way, that is not to say I'm promoting caste systems, or that that it is somehow a perfect social system. The number of Sanskrit texts available is staggering, and those scholars prepared to preserve them for posterity are steadfast in their duty to pass it down, as had been done before them. There are interesting activity triangles in the way Karma is understood that I feel is comparable to Vygotsky's theories of development of higher psychological functions. Karma is the Sanskrit word for "action" which most people might already know. The system of karma has a qualitative function that in a simplistic way entails the old saw, "what goes around comes around," but with more nuance lays out how an individual can choose to act in order to gain a particular outcome, that has a gross and subtle result as consequence, which could also be translated as "seen" and "unseen" consequences. I suppose the Buddha, who came along later, elected to focus on mind and its different qualities, however for the most part Buddhist vocabulary or its conceptual library is a borrowing (or anti-borrowing) from Vedic culture. It is difficult to not think of an elephant when one has brought it up in the first place. I find another commonality with Vygotskian-generated theories (aka CHAT) vis ? vis the Vedic and Buddhist worldviews is that each has a stance of liberation as the final achievement. Who doesn't want to be free? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 2:34 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Druid culture? Presume you mean mid-late 1st century AD Iron Age Britain. We know a lot about the houses they lived in, the kind of weapons, pottery and cloth and art an such like, they made, their agricultural practices and diet. As for Druids, well...only such self-serving stories the Romans chose to relate. Next to nothing about their language though; lot of speculation of course. Regards David ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 15 May 2020 19:27 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Hola Henry, No worries. As far as "Shaktism", be wary of Angli-sliced words, and what they do to the underlying meanings. Shakti is Sanskrit to mean "power" and just like in English the word can be used in many contexts, as is the same with shakti. For example in Vedic culture, speech is considered to have shakti. And from what little we know of Driud culture, Druids were considered masters of language and could halt wars with a speech. Merlin is a prototype, who is sometimes reduced to a magician-wizard, but certainly casting spells is another way of describing power to speech in the west, but that is perhaps a method that disempowers because to cast a spell is considered superstitious and not a valid somehow. And yet there is a peculiar phenomenon I see in our stable genius how he will repeat over and over the same fallacy and it has an impact I would not say is far removed from casting a spell. It is a kind of shakti that he wields to detrimental effect. Shakti can also be translated into we call in the west a "gift," such as a prodigy five-year-old pianist. But shakti is that. I feel that shakti is tied more to the person where "gift" divides seems to divide the power from the person, as if the person (exercising the gift) had no cause in its generation. This of course leads to the entire disembodied genius mythology, right? which only separates even more, rather than to unify. As I see it, there is in our western cultural-historical progression a habit to remove the subtle from the gross, where in Vedic culture they inhabit the same loci without conflict, in fact that are considered of the same substrate: a form that matter might take is on a continuum of degree (subtle to gross). Consider how H2O can travel from gas to liquid to solid. Perhaps this need to divide the subtle from the gross in the west is a Cartesian residue. I believe that to be the case. At the same time in Vedic culture, shakti is considered the feminine, perhaps because it is subtle. Not sure what it means to ascribe gender to the subtle vs gross, but at the least there is poetry in it. Really my contribution to highlight the role model of Durga is also to suggest how little we do see of the female as warrior or even less as the protective mother. Once in a while we might reference a Grizzly bear and her cubs, but it's quite peripheral when it comes to the roles of women in American culture. I truly admire the Prime Minister of New Zealand. She is certainly bursting of Durga shakti! ? If only we could manage to cultivate that here on our own terra firma. But strawberries will have to do for the time being! Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 12:26 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Good Day Annalisa, So sorry. Not the first time I have stumbled here. This one is hilarious and, of course, avoidable. I hope to do better with my next turn. Your link to the Times article is very interesting, related to David K?s list of men and women leaders in the face of COVID-19. I did look up Durga and Shaktism in Hinduism. Very interesting reflections on forms of power. Nourishing for the future has been planting strawberry plants in straw bales in our back yard. Stay well, Henry On May 15, 2020, at 12:01 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello Henry, It was me that sent the link regarding Kerala. And you did spell my name correctly. There is also an Annalie on the list (not moi). I found also this link in the NYT about a similar topic: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/15/world/coronavirus-women-leaders.html__;!!Mih3wA!XlFXy7wwgkR_FwOdxoJ_DU23-2DszJfose38sE9l-n7gOCcd7tcts4f7GbBXO7m3Nm0Njg$ I will contemplate brown M&M's as well (read on into the next article below the above one). One Indian goddess whom I've always admired is Durga, the protective-mother incarnation of Kali the consort of Shiva. I feel as a world we could use the influence of Durga as a model to be our better selves, caring and protective is a preventative measure not a reactive one. To nourish is to become strong. What have you done to be nourishing today? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of HENRY SHONERD > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 10:39 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Hi AnnaLIE, I apologize for getting your name wrong. There is someone who engages with the chat by the name of Annalie, and I thought it was she who had sent the link to the Guardian artilcle on Shailaja. Usually Annalisa writes very long posts, so I was pleasantly surprised by the brevity of the post. Ha! Henry On May 14, 2020, at 11:54 PM, Annalie Pistorius > wrote: Yes, it shows the strength of a community-based approach that is a hands-on everyone learns everything approach practical critical method. Yeah to Shailaja?s plan to upscale teacher training to health care of patients. Annalie From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Friday, 15 May 2020 1:02 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Wonderful article, Annalisa! Definitely welcome good news about good leadership inthe face of COVID-19: K.K. Shailaja, health minister of the state of Kerala in India. A woman and a member of the Communist Party there. Already a celebrity because of the way she handled an even deadlier virus in 2018. From the article in the Guardian, ?In a way she had been preparing for a similar outbreak all her life.? From what we have been reading for years from epidemiologists, COVID-19 is a dress rehearsal for even deadlier viruses. Kerala has the highest literacy rate, the highest life expectancy and the lowest infant mortality in India. Meanwhile, the Trump team is sending out surveys that allow people to get high scores on their hatred of socialism. Tooting my New Mexico horn, we have a woman governor that has shown great leadership in maintaining social distancing. However, our literacy is among the lowest in the country and push back from deniers and conspiracy theorists has been ugly. Infection rates have been disproportionately high among Native Americans, particularly Navajos and some Pueblos, though death rates of those infected are highest among whites. Henry On May 14, 2020, at 3:26 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello fellow XMCArs, I thought this might be some good news, given all the bad news: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/14/the-coronavirus-slayer-how-keralas-rock-star-health-minister-helped-save-it-from-covid-19__;!!Mih3wA!XlFXy7wwgkR_FwOdxoJ_DU23-2DszJfose38sE9l-n7gOCcd7tcts4f7GbBXO7lZNZks5w$ Cheers, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200516/d85c4479/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sat May 16 12:43:57 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 19:43:57 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala In-Reply-To: References: <7CF68C44-2A31-4E98-8DE7-11FC0B8AE8E3@gmail.com> <002801d62a7d$417b5a50$c4720ef0$@smu.ac.za> <23CB0D56-30A3-497F-AF5F-4E4F65721AD7@gmail.com> , <0BF7D8AD-6F6F-4DCB-87D4-BA2EE8A9E05F@gmail.com>, , , , Message-ID: Hi David, and venerable others, Forgive me for my meager straws. All you are saying is that because something is not verifiable (with authority) it can't exist. Is that not so? That makes no sense to me. We know that the Druids existed, and we know from observations of another culture (the Romans) that they were important to their people, they were considered the holders of wisdom, and that they were masters of language (poetry and storytelling). I'm not sure what it means to say any of this is impossible to assert just because we cannot decode this from archeological findings. Nothing can ever be precise even with the most data because then one could argue about interpretation of that data. It is the simplest thing to poke a stick in the spokes and doesn't require any interpretation. True, Merlin and Arthur are legends (i.e. Le Mort d'Arthur) but these stories did not erupt spontaneously like a science fiction story in the 1960s. (Although one could argue that Star Trek is a fanciful futuristic rendering of human culture when the model of the United Nation was an aspiration, coming out of the two world wars.) Stories, legends, mythologies, and so on come from somewhere. They live on because they resonate within. The knowing or assertion of a precise genesis in some ways become moot, because such stories are beginningless. Then it becomes a matter of function. How do the stories work. By coincidence (or synchronicity) I've just began reading the recent release of Hau's book "Wittgenstein's Remarks on Frazier's Golden Bough." I wonder whether the topic of that book has a topical thread to offer here. I not yet read Philosophical Investigations to fully understand Wittgenstein's concept of language games, but W's Remarks certainly seem to fascinate anthropologists, since they are tasked to make sense of human culture, which includes ritual. I can't speak with any authority (actually I never try to speak with authority), as I've just cracked it, but one of the first discussions pertains to swapping one symbol for another symbol (symbolism) as opposed to explanation. I wonder if this might be the crux of our own debate, in terms of style. Meaning can be conveyed both ways. Perhaps it has to do with intuition vs rational, and which of these paths one wishes to travel, either by preference or habit. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 2:06 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Morning Annalisa, Sorry, but I think you are clutching at a very few straws in the wind when it comes to Druids, and even more so with Arthur and Merlin, whose canonical form originates with high medieval romance fiction, e.g. Geoffrey of Monmouth's (1095-1155) History of the Kings of Britton (1136) and which starts, no less, from the arrival of refugees from the sack of Troy. The problem with folk stories is they are just that, folk stories, and which folks are at issue. Britton (The Isles of the Mighty!), and from well before the Romans was often settled from elsewhere in continental Europe (as witness by step-change in material culture). As for the autochthonic Brits circa the last, ice age (12-13000 yrs ago) and who, for obvious reasons, were also incomers, well, who knows. Regards David ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 15 May 2020 21:56 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Hi David, Alas that Capital H-history were only based upon the conquest of the victors. Fortunately folk stories are carried down in a verbal tradition. (Another power of speech!) We do know something of the Druids, though I agree with you, not as much as we might like. The same can be said about the Cathars. Few know of them either, even today. Many cultures of the past have been decimated and from that we have inherited a distorted lens by which to examine them. Poor us! We know of the Ancient Greeks, the Ancient Egyptians too, because of someone writing it all down and the parchment and stone lasting through the ages, in some cases not that well, for us to piece together bit by bit, translate and reflect. Only to argue theories of what once was. The Vedic culture, interestingly, is one ancient culture that has remained intact, unlike the culture of the Ancient Greeks or Ancient Egyptians. One reason that I find it so captivating because it provides me an unadulterated view of how the ancients (of that time and place) thought. By the way, that is not to say I'm promoting caste systems, or that that it is somehow a perfect social system. The number of Sanskrit texts available is staggering, and those scholars prepared to preserve them for posterity are steadfast in their duty to pass it down, as had been done before them. There are interesting activity triangles in the way Karma is understood that I feel is comparable to Vygotsky's theories of development of higher psychological functions. Karma is the Sanskrit word for "action" which most people might already know. The system of karma has a qualitative function that in a simplistic way entails the old saw, "what goes around comes around," but with more nuance lays out how an individual can choose to act in order to gain a particular outcome, that has a gross and subtle result as consequence, which could also be translated as "seen" and "unseen" consequences. I suppose the Buddha, who came along later, elected to focus on mind and its different qualities, however for the most part Buddhist vocabulary or its conceptual library is a borrowing (or anti-borrowing) from Vedic culture. It is difficult to not think of an elephant when one has brought it up in the first place. I find another commonality with Vygotskian-generated theories (aka CHAT) vis ? vis the Vedic and Buddhist worldviews is that each has a stance of liberation as the final achievement. Who doesn't want to be free? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 2:34 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Druid culture? Presume you mean mid-late 1st century AD Iron Age Britain. We know a lot about the houses they lived in, the kind of weapons, pottery and cloth and art an such like, they made, their agricultural practices and diet. As for Druids, well...only such self-serving stories the Romans chose to relate. Next to nothing about their language though; lot of speculation of course. Regards David ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 15 May 2020 19:27 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Hola Henry, No worries. As far as "Shaktism", be wary of Angli-sliced words, and what they do to the underlying meanings. Shakti is Sanskrit to mean "power" and just like in English the word can be used in many contexts, as is the same with shakti. For example in Vedic culture, speech is considered to have shakti. And from what little we know of Driud culture, Druids were considered masters of language and could halt wars with a speech. Merlin is a prototype, who is sometimes reduced to a magician-wizard, but certainly casting spells is another way of describing power to speech in the west, but that is perhaps a method that disempowers because to cast a spell is considered superstitious and not a valid somehow. And yet there is a peculiar phenomenon I see in our stable genius how he will repeat over and over the same fallacy and it has an impact I would not say is far removed from casting a spell. It is a kind of shakti that he wields to detrimental effect. Shakti can also be translated into we call in the west a "gift," such as a prodigy five-year-old pianist. But shakti is that. I feel that shakti is tied more to the person where "gift" divides seems to divide the power from the person, as if the person (exercising the gift) had no cause in its generation. This of course leads to the entire disembodied genius mythology, right? which only separates even more, rather than to unify. As I see it, there is in our western cultural-historical progression a habit to remove the subtle from the gross, where in Vedic culture they inhabit the same loci without conflict, in fact that are considered of the same substrate: a form that matter might take is on a continuum of degree (subtle to gross). Consider how H2O can travel from gas to liquid to solid. Perhaps this need to divide the subtle from the gross in the west is a Cartesian residue. I believe that to be the case. At the same time in Vedic culture, shakti is considered the feminine, perhaps because it is subtle. Not sure what it means to ascribe gender to the subtle vs gross, but at the least there is poetry in it. Really my contribution to highlight the role model of Durga is also to suggest how little we do see of the female as warrior or even less as the protective mother. Once in a while we might reference a Grizzly bear and her cubs, but it's quite peripheral when it comes to the roles of women in American culture. I truly admire the Prime Minister of New Zealand. She is certainly bursting of Durga shakti! ? If only we could manage to cultivate that here on our own terra firma. But strawberries will have to do for the time being! Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 12:26 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Good Day Annalisa, So sorry. Not the first time I have stumbled here. This one is hilarious and, of course, avoidable. I hope to do better with my next turn. Your link to the Times article is very interesting, related to David K?s list of men and women leaders in the face of COVID-19. I did look up Durga and Shaktism in Hinduism. Very interesting reflections on forms of power. Nourishing for the future has been planting strawberry plants in straw bales in our back yard. Stay well, Henry On May 15, 2020, at 12:01 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello Henry, It was me that sent the link regarding Kerala. And you did spell my name correctly. There is also an Annalie on the list (not moi). I found also this link in the NYT about a similar topic: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/15/world/coronavirus-women-leaders.html__;!!Mih3wA!XE79jdMrJP5LiyqxMe99d8XuHcVl4Q_4_PBfEXZdHBZUblD528W7m0cWs5LdNsmeTlyfzw$ I will contemplate brown M&M's as well (read on into the next article below the above one). One Indian goddess whom I've always admired is Durga, the protective-mother incarnation of Kali the consort of Shiva. I feel as a world we could use the influence of Durga as a model to be our better selves, caring and protective is a preventative measure not a reactive one. To nourish is to become strong. What have you done to be nourishing today? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of HENRY SHONERD > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 10:39 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Hi AnnaLIE, I apologize for getting your name wrong. There is someone who engages with the chat by the name of Annalie, and I thought it was she who had sent the link to the Guardian artilcle on Shailaja. Usually Annalisa writes very long posts, so I was pleasantly surprised by the brevity of the post. Ha! Henry On May 14, 2020, at 11:54 PM, Annalie Pistorius > wrote: Yes, it shows the strength of a community-based approach that is a hands-on everyone learns everything approach practical critical method. Yeah to Shailaja?s plan to upscale teacher training to health care of patients. Annalie From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Friday, 15 May 2020 1:02 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Wonderful article, Annalisa! Definitely welcome good news about good leadership inthe face of COVID-19: K.K. Shailaja, health minister of the state of Kerala in India. A woman and a member of the Communist Party there. Already a celebrity because of the way she handled an even deadlier virus in 2018. From the article in the Guardian, ?In a way she had been preparing for a similar outbreak all her life.? From what we have been reading for years from epidemiologists, COVID-19 is a dress rehearsal for even deadlier viruses. Kerala has the highest literacy rate, the highest life expectancy and the lowest infant mortality in India. Meanwhile, the Trump team is sending out surveys that allow people to get high scores on their hatred of socialism. Tooting my New Mexico horn, we have a woman governor that has shown great leadership in maintaining social distancing. However, our literacy is among the lowest in the country and push back from deniers and conspiracy theorists has been ugly. Infection rates have been disproportionately high among Native Americans, particularly Navajos and some Pueblos, though death rates of those infected are highest among whites. Henry On May 14, 2020, at 3:26 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello fellow XMCArs, I thought this might be some good news, given all the bad news: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/14/the-coronavirus-slayer-how-keralas-rock-star-health-minister-helped-save-it-from-covid-19__;!!Mih3wA!XE79jdMrJP5LiyqxMe99d8XuHcVl4Q_4_PBfEXZdHBZUblD528W7m0cWs5LdNsk0qh8wQA$ Cheers, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200516/e0d5cf08/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sat May 16 13:31:01 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 20:31:01 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> , <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> Message-ID: Hi Andy, and VO's, What fascinates me is that the word "sociocultural" has a lot of different facets in terms of how the word was used in different contexts. It seems there are three I've been able to pick out. 1. as a derisive term in early Soviet history. 2. as an empowering term from Latin American voices. 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist "brand" at the height of the Cold War in the US. I'm not sure if I've done justice in the manner that I've represented that, but it is a well-intended attempt. Are there others? What I don't understand fully is whether there must be ONE explanation how the term came to be, or ONE definition of what it actually means. Can't it be polysemantic? polycontextual? If that is what's happening, then it makes sense that there would be an ongoing controversy about which one is the right definition or reason for not using it, depending on the interlocutor. If we are to talk about who used the term first, and that's where the value/authority holds, then all that tells us is that for those who value who used the term first. that's where the authority is. If we talk about the emotional attachment of the word as it is used in context and that's where the value/authority holds, then that tells us for those who value the most personal attachment to the word, that's where the authority is. If we talk about how the word was used functionally, where the value/authority holds in its efficacy, then all that tells is that for those who value whether the word works or not, that's where the authority is. I'm not sure one can put any of one these over the other two (or if there are more than that, if there are more). All we can say I suppose is whether in a particular context is the word "sociocultural" appropriate or not? I do find that this debate has begun to have its own life, this debate over the use of a word. I've begun doubt it will ever cease. One day the discussion will be how one used to debate about the term, first everyone was this way about the word, than they were that way about the word, and many large camps were formed in XXXX year to say why the word should not be used, but then X years later other large camps formed to say it is fine to use the word. I suppose it will only be when the debate ceases will it come to pass that the debate will be forgotten. But will that cessation solidify the use or non-use of the word? I understand the reasons for saying "cultural psychology." But for those swimming in a culture where behaviorism is considered the soul of psychology, adding "cultural" becomes a sad necessity. Even then, that necessity only depends upon how one sees culture, as either as an additive, an integral ingredient of psychology, or its basis. I believe I've read on the list that one should be able to say "psychology" and just *know* that it includes culture. I don't think we are there yet. Then that would be my argument to use "sociocultural" to understand it includes history. CHAT is sort of a defensive term (well, it is an acronym). But then... it leaves out "social" and is that OK? We certainly should not say sociocultural historical activity theory because that acronym is very unfulfilling. What is nice about CHAT though is that to chat is an activity of speech, and there is a implied meaning that also pertains to Vygotskian theories, and therefore meaningful. In a sense, it's not the meaning that we are arguing over, but how the limitations of our particular language fails to convey a meaning with such precision that it thereby to parses away any other inappropriate meaning. I'm just not sure that the project is one that can be achieved successfully, even if it succeeds for an interim. At the same time I can see why story of the elephant and the blind men also have a part to play in our understandings and assumptions. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] Annalisa, I have only been talking and writing about Vygotsky and co. since about 2000 and have been openly Marxist since the 1960s (indeed, Vygotsky is core to how I understand Marx) and never had any reason not to be. But it is true that when Mike first went to Moscow, it was at the height of the Cold War, and when he and others first brought Vygotsky's ideas to the USA, there was a lot of resistance to their Marxist content. I think the naming issue only arose as Vygotsky and the others began to build a real following. The issues with the choice of name change over the years, as you say. I prefer" CHAT," but sometimes I use "Cultural Psychology" and sometimes I use "Activity Theory" depending on the context. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: Andy, et al, I sort of came to this a little late in the thread, but I can offer that Vera John-Steiner didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian theory, but as I learn more about the word (thank you Mike), I can see how once a word is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard for the association to be broken. I think it's that way with words all the time coming and going out of favor, or meanings shifting, like the game of telephone, but across generations and cultures. Might I contribute to the discussion by asking whether the use of "sociocultural" was also a means of making the theories more available in the West (at least in the US). It seems there was redscare (you are welcome read the double entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as you like) prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the Marxist "brand" to access the actual theories on child development? In other words, to depoliticize the science? I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but as time passes, I can see its problems. For me, I had preferred the word because historical was always a given for me. In concern of the here and now, the real difficulty I had thought was understanding the social- how interactions between the child and the caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the -cultural, how the culture impacts thought, those things are more of the micro level, but also sociocultural, how the two also can interact and influence one another and that combined bears its own signature on the mind and its development. As far as History (capital H) that is sort of difficult to measure when we are talking about child development as there is very little history that a child has, unless we are talking about genetics, I suppose. Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect and am enriched by the discourse in which we now we find ourselves immersed about it so thanks to all for this. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. Jim Wertsch said: Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? or ?cultural-historical.? Mike Cole told me: In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: I should have reported progress with my question. Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin referred to on his academia.edu page for us all to read. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!RNrqeCL3066jknGQA1Pfvt5-QqLteWogDvTB34ZrQNMj0k2lfmXf_R8VBmJivFGdbJE-SQ$ As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the components more than others and he was acting nominally as a psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these components. I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. Chuck ---- ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. History will judge. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!RNrqeCL3066jknGQA1Pfvt5-QqLteWogDvTB34ZrQNMj0k2lfmXf_R8VBmJivFEOGHfqHg$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!RNrqeCL3066jknGQA1Pfvt5-QqLteWogDvTB34ZrQNMj0k2lfmXf_R8VBmJivFHp5c70RA$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!RNrqeCL3066jknGQA1Pfvt5-QqLteWogDvTB34ZrQNMj0k2lfmXf_R8VBmJivFGSQB-v7g$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!RNrqeCL3066jknGQA1Pfvt5-QqLteWogDvTB34ZrQNMj0k2lfmXf_R8VBmJivFEvFDVY0A$ "Pros and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so sure the cons outweigh the pros here. But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm more outsider than insider and don't really know. Thank you for any insight. Anthony On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer > wrote: I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their view it?s the best term: Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). Sociocultural studies of mind. Cambridge University Press. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action" published by Harvard University Press in 1991. Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and artefacts mediating action. Thanks again to all Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: Andy-- Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!RNrqeCL3066jknGQA1Pfvt5-QqLteWogDvTB34ZrQNMj0k2lfmXf_R8VBmJivFGfyMWkCg$ Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the years you'll get better granularity in the document search. On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. dk David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!RNrqeCL3066jknGQA1Pfvt5-QqLteWogDvTB34ZrQNMj0k2lfmXf_R8VBmJivFF0sb8HOA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RNrqeCL3066jknGQA1Pfvt5-QqLteWogDvTB34ZrQNMj0k2lfmXf_R8VBmJivFEkoUG02A$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer > wrote: The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in English is this: A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use the term ?sociocultural? frequently. The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study of the Mexican. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: Andy: I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but here's what I got. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!RNrqeCL3066jknGQA1Pfvt5-QqLteWogDvTB34ZrQNMj0k2lfmXf_R8VBmJivFH-o8DSQg$ " width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 frameborder=0 scrolling=no So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after 1992 is Vygotsky though. Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!RNrqeCL3066jknGQA1Pfvt5-QqLteWogDvTB34ZrQNMj0k2lfmXf_R8VBmJivFF0sb8HOA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RNrqeCL3066jknGQA1Pfvt5-QqLteWogDvTB34ZrQNMj0k2lfmXf_R8VBmJivFEkoUG02A$ On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" originated? Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200516/86076edd/attachment.html From dkirsh@lsu.edu Sat May 16 16:25:54 2020 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 23:25:54 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> , <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> Message-ID: 4. As an umbrella term for any sociogenetic approach. Isn?t that its current usage? David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? Hi Andy, and VO's, What fascinates me is that the word "sociocultural" has a lot of different facets in terms of how the word was used in different contexts. It seems there are three I've been able to pick out. 1. as a derisive term in early Soviet history. 2. as an empowering term from Latin American voices. 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist "brand" at the height of the Cold War in the US. I'm not sure if I've done justice in the manner that I've represented that, but it is a well-intended attempt. Are there others? What I don't understand fully is whether there must be ONE explanation how the term came to be, or ONE definition of what it actually means. Can't it be polysemantic? polycontextual? If that is what's happening, then it makes sense that there would be an ongoing controversy about which one is the right definition or reason for not using it, depending on the interlocutor. If we are to talk about who used the term first, and that's where the value/authority holds, then all that tells us is that for those who value who used the term first. that's where the authority is. If we talk about the emotional attachment of the word as it is used in context and that's where the value/authority holds, then that tells us for those who value the most personal attachment to the word, that's where the authority is. If we talk about how the word was used functionally, where the value/authority holds in its efficacy, then all that tells is that for those who value whether the word works or not, that's where the authority is. I'm not sure one can put any of one these over the other two (or if there are more than that, if there are more). All we can say I suppose is whether in a particular context is the word "sociocultural" appropriate or not? I do find that this debate has begun to have its own life, this debate over the use of a word. I've begun doubt it will ever cease. One day the discussion will be how one used to debate about the term, first everyone was this way about the word, than they were that way about the word, and many large camps were formed in XXXX year to say why the word should not be used, but then X years later other large camps formed to say it is fine to use the word. I suppose it will only be when the debate ceases will it come to pass that the debate will be forgotten. But will that cessation solidify the use or non-use of the word? I understand the reasons for saying "cultural psychology." But for those swimming in a culture where behaviorism is considered the soul of psychology, adding "cultural" becomes a sad necessity. Even then, that necessity only depends upon how one sees culture, as either as an additive, an integral ingredient of psychology, or its basis. I believe I've read on the list that one should be able to say "psychology" and just *know* that it includes culture. I don't think we are there yet. Then that would be my argument to use "sociocultural" to understand it includes history. CHAT is sort of a defensive term (well, it is an acronym). But then... it leaves out "social" and is that OK? We certainly should not say sociocultural historical activity theory because that acronym is very unfulfilling. What is nice about CHAT though is that to chat is an activity of speech, and there is a implied meaning that also pertains to Vygotskian theories, and therefore meaningful. In a sense, it's not the meaning that we are arguing over, but how the limitations of our particular language fails to convey a meaning with such precision that it thereby to parses away any other inappropriate meaning. I'm just not sure that the project is one that can be achieved successfully, even if it succeeds for an interim. At the same time I can see why story of the elephant and the blind men also have a part to play in our understandings and assumptions. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] Annalisa, I have only been talking and writing about Vygotsky and co. since about 2000 and have been openly Marxist since the 1960s (indeed, Vygotsky is core to how I understand Marx) and never had any reason not to be. But it is true that when Mike first went to Moscow, it was at the height of the Cold War, and when he and others first brought Vygotsky's ideas to the USA, there was a lot of resistance to their Marxist content. I think the naming issue only arose as Vygotsky and the others began to build a real following. The issues with the choice of name change over the years, as you say. I prefer" CHAT," but sometimes I use "Cultural Psychology" and sometimes I use "Activity Theory" depending on the context. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: Andy, et al, I sort of came to this a little late in the thread, but I can offer that Vera John-Steiner didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian theory, but as I learn more about the word (thank you Mike), I can see how once a word is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard for the association to be broken. I think it's that way with words all the time coming and going out of favor, or meanings shifting, like the game of telephone, but across generations and cultures. Might I contribute to the discussion by asking whether the use of "sociocultural" was also a means of making the theories more available in the West (at least in the US). It seems there was redscare (you are welcome read the double entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as you like) prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the Marxist "brand" to access the actual theories on child development? In other words, to depoliticize the science? I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but as time passes, I can see its problems. For me, I had preferred the word because historical was always a given for me. In concern of the here and now, the real difficulty I had thought was understanding the social- how interactions between the child and the caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the -cultural, how the culture impacts thought, those things are more of the micro level, but also sociocultural, how the two also can interact and influence one another and that combined bears its own signature on the mind and its development. As far as History (capital H) that is sort of difficult to measure when we are talking about child development as there is very little history that a child has, unless we are talking about genetics, I suppose. Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect and am enriched by the discourse in which we now we find ourselves immersed about it so thanks to all for this. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. Jim Wertsch said: Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? or ?cultural-historical.? Mike Cole told me: In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: I should have reported progress with my question. Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin referred to on his academia.edu page for us all to read. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4Lh0zc2dMA$ As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the components more than others and he was acting nominally as a psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these components. I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. Chuck ---- ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. History will judge. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LhIEFzAsg$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LgAc-j19g$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LjYKTlJfg$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LgT7SaT9A$ "Pros and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so sure the cons outweigh the pros here. But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm more outsider than insider and don't really know. Thank you for any insight. Anthony On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer > wrote: I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their view it?s the best term: Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). Sociocultural studies of mind. Cambridge University Press. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action" published by Harvard University Press in 1991. Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and artefacts mediating action. Thanks again to all Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: Andy-- Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LjACAo4gA$ Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the years you'll get better granularity in the document search. On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. dk David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LiCT8Ar9g$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LietFrnVQ$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer > wrote: The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in English is this: A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use the term ?sociocultural? frequently. The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study of the Mexican. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: Andy: I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but here's what I got. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LhIh3H8uA$ " width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 frameborder=0 scrolling=no So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after 1992 is Vygotsky though. Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LiCT8Ar9g$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LietFrnVQ$ On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" originated? Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200516/d4407fc9/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat May 16 17:14:59 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 09:14:59 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> Message-ID: It's a very domain-specific umbrella, like those cane-brollies that go with a bowler. "Sociocultural" is strongly preferred used in second language acquisition, thanks to the influence of Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf and Matthew Poehner; I have never seen "cultural historical" used in this literature. But "cultural-historical" is similarly preferred in psychology and anthropology, thanks to the influence of J.V. Wertsch, Mike Cole, Martin Packer and Andy Blunden; that's really why we are having this discussion on what "socio-cultural" might mean on a list largely populated by roving psychologists and nomadic anthropologues. Interestingly, the Francophones prefer "historico-cultural", using the argument that you can understand the process without the product but not the product without the process. I stopped using "sociocultural" because I thought it was redundant, but now I am really not sure of this: it seems to me that the relationship is a similar one--you can study society as process without studying its cultural product (e.g. as demographics, economics, statistics) but you can't really study culture without some understanding of the process of its formation. There was a similar disagreement in systemic functional linguistics between Halliday and Jim Martin over the term "socio-semiotic". Martin said that it was redundant, because there couldn't be any semiotic without society. Halliday rather flippantly replied that ants had a society without a semiotics, and at the time it seemed to me that this was a non sequitur, first of all because ants don't really have a society in our sense (precisely because there is no such thing as an ant history separate from phylogenesis on the one hand and ontogenesis on the other) and secondly because ants most definitely do have a semiotics, albeit one based on chemistry and not perception as ours is. It seems to me, in retrospect, that the relationship between the semiotic and the social is much more like the relationship between the social and the biological, or even the biological and the chemical. The semiotic is a certain level of organization that the social has, but there are other levels, just as biology is a certain kind of chemical organization which does not exclude other, nonbiological ways organizing chemicals, and chemistry is a kind of physical organization which doesn't exclude sub-chemical organizations. Perhaps we can think of the relationship between culture and society in the same way? David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!QwnjuGWv1M4ZX6kMNV7A1nO46fLjKXBSeMFcdiKYZQb3gv2FV78Tq_DhJK9vM5IH1niRwQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QwnjuGWv1M4ZX6kMNV7A1nO46fLjKXBSeMFcdiKYZQb3gv2FV78Tq_DhJK9vM5JySLOtJA$ On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David H Kirshner wrote: > 4. As an umbrella term for any sociogenetic approach. > > Isn?t that its current usage? > > David > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar > *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > > > Hi Andy, and VO's, > > > > What fascinates me is that the word "sociocultural" has a lot of different > facets in terms of how the word was used in different contexts. It seems > there are three I've been able to pick out. > > 1. as a derisive term in early Soviet history. > 2. as an empowering term from Latin American voices. > 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist "brand" at the height of the Cold > War in the US. > > I'm not sure if I've done justice in the manner that I've represented > that, but it is a well-intended attempt. Are there others? > > > > What I don't understand fully is whether there must be ONE explanation how > the term came to be, or ONE definition of what it actually means. Can't it > be polysemantic? polycontextual? > > > > If that is what's happening, then it makes sense that there would be an > ongoing controversy about which one is the right definition or reason for > not using it, depending on the interlocutor. > > > > If we are to talk about who used the term first, and that's where the > value/authority holds, then all that tells us is that for those who value > who used the term first. that's where the authority is. > > > > If we talk about the emotional attachment of the word as it is used in > context and that's where the value/authority holds, then that tells us for > those who value the most personal attachment to the word, that's where the > authority is. > > > > If we talk about how the word was used functionally, where the > value/authority holds in its efficacy, then all that tells is that for > those who value whether the word works or not, that's where the authority > is. > > > > I'm not sure one can put any of one these over the other two (or if there > are more than that, if there are more). All we can say I suppose is whether > in a particular context is the word "sociocultural" appropriate or not? > > > > I do find that this debate has begun to have its own life, this debate > over the use of a word. I've begun doubt it will ever cease. > > > > One day the discussion will be how one used to debate about the term, > first everyone was this way about the word, than they were that way about > the word, and many large camps were formed in XXXX year to say why the word > should not be used, but then X years later other large camps formed to say > it is fine to use the word. I suppose it will only be when the debate > ceases will it come to pass that the debate will be forgotten. But will > that cessation solidify the use or non-use of the word? > > > > I understand the reasons for saying "cultural psychology." But for those > swimming in a culture where behaviorism is considered the soul of > psychology, adding "cultural" becomes a sad necessity. Even then, that > necessity only depends upon how one sees culture, as either as an additive, > an integral ingredient of psychology, or its basis. I believe I've read on > the list that one should be able to say "psychology" and just *know* that > it includes culture. I don't think we are there yet. > > > > Then that would be my argument to use "sociocultural" to understand it > includes history. CHAT is sort of a defensive term (well, it is an > acronym). But then... it leaves out "social" and is that OK? We certainly > should not say sociocultural historical activity theory because that > acronym is very unfulfilling. What is nice about CHAT though is that to > chat is an activity of speech, and there is a implied meaning that also > pertains to Vygotskian theories, and therefore meaningful. > > > > In a sense, it's not the meaning that we are arguing over, but how the > limitations of our particular language fails to convey a meaning with such > precision that it thereby to parses away any other inappropriate meaning. > I'm just not sure that the project is one that can be achieved > successfully, even if it succeeds for an interim. > > > > At the same time I can see why story of the elephant and the blind men > also have a part to play in our understandings and assumptions. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Annalisa, I have only been talking and writing about Vygotsky and co. > since about 2000 and have been openly Marxist since the 1960s (indeed, > Vygotsky is core to how I understand Marx) and never had any reason not to > be. But it is true that when Mike first went to Moscow, it was at the > height of the Cold War, and when he and others first brought Vygotsky's > ideas to the USA, there was a lot of resistance to their Marxist content. I > think the naming issue only arose as Vygotsky and the others began to build > a real following. The issues with the choice of name change over the years, > as you say. I prefer" CHAT," but sometimes I use "Cultural Psychology" and > sometimes I use "Activity Theory" depending on the context. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Andy, et al, > > > > I sort of came to this a little late in the thread, but I can offer that > Vera John-Steiner didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian > theory, but as I learn more about the word (thank you Mike), I can see how > once a word is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard for the > association to be broken. > > > > I think it's that way with words all the time coming and going out of > favor, or meanings shifting, like the game of telephone, but across > generations and cultures. > > > > Might I contribute to the discussion by asking whether the use of > "sociocultural" was also a means of making the theories more available in > the West (at least in the US). It seems there was redscare (you are welcome > read the double entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as you like) > prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the Marxist "brand" to > access the actual theories on child development? In other words, to > depoliticize the science? > > > > I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but as time passes, I can > see its problems. > > > > For me, I had preferred the word because historical was always a given for > me. In concern of the here and now, the real difficulty I had thought was > understanding the social- how interactions between the child and the > caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the -cultural, how the culture > impacts thought, those things are more of the micro level, but also > sociocultural, how the two also can interact and influence one another and > that combined bears its own signature on the mind and its development. As > far as History (capital H) that is sort of difficult to measure when we are > talking about child development as there is very little history that a > child has, unless we are talking about genetics, I suppose. > > > > Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect and am enriched by the > discourse in which we now we find ourselves immersed about it so thanks to > all for this. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > > *Sent:* Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have > garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. > > Jim Wertsch said: > > Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I > consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology > and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches > that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 > book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices > of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about > the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? > or ?cultural-historical.? > > Mike Cole told me: > > In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term > "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's > ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian > followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, > apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets > prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a > sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what > he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in > Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists > had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term > "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like > Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted > to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT > emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the > various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the > Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. > CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being > used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History > in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: > > I should have reported progress with my question. > > Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between > these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the > various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin > referred to on his academia.edu page for us all to read. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!QwnjuGWv1M4ZX6kMNV7A1nO46fLjKXBSeMFcdiKYZQb3gv2FV78Tq_DhJK9vM5JHN6FmLw$ > > > As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: > > Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see > this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity > multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what > the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for > analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov > points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components > that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those > we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as > consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics > and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human > neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is > the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the > components more than others and he was acting nominally as a > psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these > components. > > > > I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am > talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does > not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in > motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. > > > > While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different > concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in > being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. > > > > BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social > sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication > with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This > project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. > > > > Chuck > > ---- > > ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? > > ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? > > Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. > > The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. > > History will judge. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!QwnjuGWv1M4ZX6kMNV7A1nO46fLjKXBSeMFcdiKYZQb3gv2FV78Tq_DhJK9vM5Jn1DUz9Q$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!QwnjuGWv1M4ZX6kMNV7A1nO46fLjKXBSeMFcdiKYZQb3gv2FV78Tq_DhJK9vM5KjkVCYRg$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!QwnjuGWv1M4ZX6kMNV7A1nO46fLjKXBSeMFcdiKYZQb3gv2FV78Tq_DhJK9vM5J98qhbbA$ > > > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. > > > > While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any > value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!QwnjuGWv1M4ZX6kMNV7A1nO46fLjKXBSeMFcdiKYZQb3gv2FV78Tq_DhJK9vM5I6A7N0og$ > "Pros > and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" > > > > As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so > sure the cons outweigh the pros here. > > > > But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could > Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If > so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? > > I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm > more outsider than insider and don't really know. > > > > Thank you for any insight. > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer wrote: > > I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. > > > > Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this > book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their > view it?s the best term: > > > > Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). *Sociocultural > studies of mind.* Cambridge University Press. > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the > term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word > "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is > the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices > of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action > " > published by Harvard University Press in 1991. > > Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context > dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this > book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and > artefacts mediating action. > > Thanks again to all > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > Andy-- > > > > Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!QwnjuGWv1M4ZX6kMNV7A1nO46fLjKXBSeMFcdiKYZQb3gv2FV78Tq_DhJK9vM5JQ_gl6jw$ > > > Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the > years you'll get better granularity in the document search. > > On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click > on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. > > > > dk > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!QwnjuGWv1M4ZX6kMNV7A1nO46fLjKXBSeMFcdiKYZQb3gv2FV78Tq_DhJK9vM5IH1niRwQ$ > > > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QwnjuGWv1M4ZX6kMNV7A1nO46fLjKXBSeMFcdiKYZQb3gv2FV78Tq_DhJK9vM5JySLOtJA$ > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer wrote: > > The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in > English is this: > > > > A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero > > > > In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press > > > > Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use > the term ?sociocultural? frequently. > > > > The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, > and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study > of the Mexican. > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How > do we find out who wrote what in 1988? > > And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of > seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, > peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing > higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in > interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. > > Andy > > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: > > Andy: > > > > I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but > here's what I got. > > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!QwnjuGWv1M4ZX6kMNV7A1nO46fLjKXBSeMFcdiKYZQb3gv2FV78Tq_DhJK9vM5L9GH5oVw$ > " > width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 > frameborder=0 scrolling=no > > > > So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to > the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only > books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after > 1992 is Vygotsky though. > > > > Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very > different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the > trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. > > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!QwnjuGWv1M4ZX6kMNV7A1nO46fLjKXBSeMFcdiKYZQb3gv2FV78Tq_DhJK9vM5IH1niRwQ$ > > > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QwnjuGWv1M4ZX6kMNV7A1nO46fLjKXBSeMFcdiKYZQb3gv2FV78Tq_DhJK9vM5JySLOtJA$ > > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" > originated? > > Andy > > -- > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200517/1bc06334/attachment-0001.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sat May 16 18:56:50 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 01:56:50 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> , Message-ID: David K & VO's What pray-tell is an anthropologue? I am divided (pun intended) about saying that sociocultural = social + culture, when they are intertwined holistically. To me, sociocultural points to a space in between, or perhaps better said to a context of interactions between individuals (who form a society) that are easily accepted among them and practiced over time. We can conceptually parse out the social and the cultural, but don't we do that because of the words and not because of the ostensible reality going on interactionally? Can we always understand something by dissecting it into parts? Again, this seems to be the limit of language, not of the conceptual context or content. In a sense to use the term "sociocultural" is to grab the tail of the tiger. The tail of the tiger is still the tiger, but perhaps a more manageable one than to grab its head. Perhaps this is why Vygotskians just call themselves Vygotskians to align themselves with the source of the first theories rather than to later conceptions and other developments (i.e. Leontiev, etc). Just thinking out loud. Another argument is that if we want to be all inclusive, then we have to include tool-use, as it's not the social, the culture, and the history, but also the language and tools used. I realize some practitioners would say that language is no different than a tool, but I feel language is different, even though it may have a similar cognitive response in the mind as would using a tool. Activity suggests tool use, though not always. Consider dance, or storytelling, or going for a walk. How about: socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory??? Yes! I am writing this a little tongue in cheek. I hope you do not mind. Kind regards, Annalsia ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:14 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] It's a very domain-specific umbrella, like those cane-brollies that go with a bowler. "Sociocultural" is strongly preferred used in second language acquisition, thanks to the influence of Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf and Matthew Poehner; I have never seen "cultural historical" used in this literature. But "cultural-historical" is similarly preferred in psychology and anthropology, thanks to the influence of J.V. Wertsch, Mike Cole, Martin Packer and Andy Blunden; that's really why we are having this discussion on what "socio-cultural" might mean on a list largely populated by roving psychologists and nomadic anthropologues. Interestingly, the Francophones prefer "historico-cultural", using the argument that you can understand the process without the product but not the product without the process. I stopped using "sociocultural" because I thought it was redundant, but now I am really not sure of this: it seems to me that the relationship is a similar one--you can study society as process without studying its cultural product (e.g. as demographics, economics, statistics) but you can't really study culture without some understanding of the process of its formation. There was a similar disagreement in systemic functional linguistics between Halliday and Jim Martin over the term "socio-semiotic". Martin said that it was redundant, because there couldn't be any semiotic without society. Halliday rather flippantly replied that ants had a society without a semiotics, and at the time it seemed to me that this was a non sequitur, first of all because ants don't really have a society in our sense (precisely because there is no such thing as an ant history separate from phylogenesis on the one hand and ontogenesis on the other) and secondly because ants most definitely do have a semiotics, albeit one based on chemistry and not perception as ours is. It seems to me, in retrospect, that the relationship between the semiotic and the social is much more like the relationship between the social and the biological, or even the biological and the chemical. The semiotic is a certain level of organization that the social has, but there are other levels, just as biology is a certain kind of chemical organization which does not exclude other, nonbiological ways organizing chemicals, and chemistry is a kind of physical organization which doesn't exclude sub-chemical organizations. Perhaps we can think of the relationship between culture and society in the same way? David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VqH-wa74lZ9chaxUzSejLnhz9sLtoHQHUtmuDiJmBuDYqNdV0dsLIXk3FNVzPXuFNthkvg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VqH-wa74lZ9chaxUzSejLnhz9sLtoHQHUtmuDiJmBuDYqNdV0dsLIXk3FNVzPXtRyuEAmg$ On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David H Kirshner > wrote: 4. As an umbrella term for any sociogenetic approach. Isn?t that its current usage? David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? Hi Andy, and VO's, What fascinates me is that the word "sociocultural" has a lot of different facets in terms of how the word was used in different contexts. It seems there are three I've been able to pick out. 1. as a derisive term in early Soviet history. 2. as an empowering term from Latin American voices. 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist "brand" at the height of the Cold War in the US. I'm not sure if I've done justice in the manner that I've represented that, but it is a well-intended attempt. Are there others? What I don't understand fully is whether there must be ONE explanation how the term came to be, or ONE definition of what it actually means. Can't it be polysemantic? polycontextual? If that is what's happening, then it makes sense that there would be an ongoing controversy about which one is the right definition or reason for not using it, depending on the interlocutor. If we are to talk about who used the term first, and that's where the value/authority holds, then all that tells us is that for those who value who used the term first. that's where the authority is. If we talk about the emotional attachment of the word as it is used in context and that's where the value/authority holds, then that tells us for those who value the most personal attachment to the word, that's where the authority is. If we talk about how the word was used functionally, where the value/authority holds in its efficacy, then all that tells is that for those who value whether the word works or not, that's where the authority is. I'm not sure one can put any of one these over the other two (or if there are more than that, if there are more). All we can say I suppose is whether in a particular context is the word "sociocultural" appropriate or not? I do find that this debate has begun to have its own life, this debate over the use of a word. I've begun doubt it will ever cease. One day the discussion will be how one used to debate about the term, first everyone was this way about the word, than they were that way about the word, and many large camps were formed in XXXX year to say why the word should not be used, but then X years later other large camps formed to say it is fine to use the word. I suppose it will only be when the debate ceases will it come to pass that the debate will be forgotten. But will that cessation solidify the use or non-use of the word? I understand the reasons for saying "cultural psychology." But for those swimming in a culture where behaviorism is considered the soul of psychology, adding "cultural" becomes a sad necessity. Even then, that necessity only depends upon how one sees culture, as either as an additive, an integral ingredient of psychology, or its basis. I believe I've read on the list that one should be able to say "psychology" and just *know* that it includes culture. I don't think we are there yet. Then that would be my argument to use "sociocultural" to understand it includes history. CHAT is sort of a defensive term (well, it is an acronym). But then... it leaves out "social" and is that OK? We certainly should not say sociocultural historical activity theory because that acronym is very unfulfilling. What is nice about CHAT though is that to chat is an activity of speech, and there is a implied meaning that also pertains to Vygotskian theories, and therefore meaningful. In a sense, it's not the meaning that we are arguing over, but how the limitations of our particular language fails to convey a meaning with such precision that it thereby to parses away any other inappropriate meaning. I'm just not sure that the project is one that can be achieved successfully, even if it succeeds for an interim. At the same time I can see why story of the elephant and the blind men also have a part to play in our understandings and assumptions. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] Annalisa, I have only been talking and writing about Vygotsky and co. since about 2000 and have been openly Marxist since the 1960s (indeed, Vygotsky is core to how I understand Marx) and never had any reason not to be. But it is true that when Mike first went to Moscow, it was at the height of the Cold War, and when he and others first brought Vygotsky's ideas to the USA, there was a lot of resistance to their Marxist content. I think the naming issue only arose as Vygotsky and the others began to build a real following. The issues with the choice of name change over the years, as you say. I prefer" CHAT," but sometimes I use "Cultural Psychology" and sometimes I use "Activity Theory" depending on the context. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: Andy, et al, I sort of came to this a little late in the thread, but I can offer that Vera John-Steiner didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian theory, but as I learn more about the word (thank you Mike), I can see how once a word is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard for the association to be broken. I think it's that way with words all the time coming and going out of favor, or meanings shifting, like the game of telephone, but across generations and cultures. Might I contribute to the discussion by asking whether the use of "sociocultural" was also a means of making the theories more available in the West (at least in the US). It seems there was redscare (you are welcome read the double entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as you like) prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the Marxist "brand" to access the actual theories on child development? In other words, to depoliticize the science? I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but as time passes, I can see its problems. For me, I had preferred the word because historical was always a given for me. In concern of the here and now, the real difficulty I had thought was understanding the social- how interactions between the child and the caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the -cultural, how the culture impacts thought, those things are more of the micro level, but also sociocultural, how the two also can interact and influence one another and that combined bears its own signature on the mind and its development. As far as History (capital H) that is sort of difficult to measure when we are talking about child development as there is very little history that a child has, unless we are talking about genetics, I suppose. Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect and am enriched by the discourse in which we now we find ourselves immersed about it so thanks to all for this. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. Jim Wertsch said: Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? or ?cultural-historical.? Mike Cole told me: In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: I should have reported progress with my question. Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin referred to on his academia.edu page for us all to read. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!VqH-wa74lZ9chaxUzSejLnhz9sLtoHQHUtmuDiJmBuDYqNdV0dsLIXk3FNVzPXvWjXE0bw$ As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the components more than others and he was acting nominally as a psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these components. I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. Chuck ---- ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. History will judge. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!VqH-wa74lZ9chaxUzSejLnhz9sLtoHQHUtmuDiJmBuDYqNdV0dsLIXk3FNVzPXtRG-Ci-Q$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!VqH-wa74lZ9chaxUzSejLnhz9sLtoHQHUtmuDiJmBuDYqNdV0dsLIXk3FNVzPXtcRFKL8w$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!VqH-wa74lZ9chaxUzSejLnhz9sLtoHQHUtmuDiJmBuDYqNdV0dsLIXk3FNVzPXv6jz-WFQ$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!VqH-wa74lZ9chaxUzSejLnhz9sLtoHQHUtmuDiJmBuDYqNdV0dsLIXk3FNVzPXuh7AJqIg$ "Pros and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so sure the cons outweigh the pros here. But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm more outsider than insider and don't really know. Thank you for any insight. Anthony On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer > wrote: I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their view it?s the best term: Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). Sociocultural studies of mind. Cambridge University Press. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action" published by Harvard University Press in 1991. Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and artefacts mediating action. Thanks again to all Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: Andy-- Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!VqH-wa74lZ9chaxUzSejLnhz9sLtoHQHUtmuDiJmBuDYqNdV0dsLIXk3FNVzPXtkTI1-fg$ Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the years you'll get better granularity in the document search. On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. dk David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VqH-wa74lZ9chaxUzSejLnhz9sLtoHQHUtmuDiJmBuDYqNdV0dsLIXk3FNVzPXuFNthkvg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VqH-wa74lZ9chaxUzSejLnhz9sLtoHQHUtmuDiJmBuDYqNdV0dsLIXk3FNVzPXtRyuEAmg$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer > wrote: The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in English is this: A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use the term ?sociocultural? frequently. The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study of the Mexican. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: Andy: I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but here's what I got. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!VqH-wa74lZ9chaxUzSejLnhz9sLtoHQHUtmuDiJmBuDYqNdV0dsLIXk3FNVzPXtIj4Nh9w$ " width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 frameborder=0 scrolling=no So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after 1992 is Vygotsky though. Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VqH-wa74lZ9chaxUzSejLnhz9sLtoHQHUtmuDiJmBuDYqNdV0dsLIXk3FNVzPXuFNthkvg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VqH-wa74lZ9chaxUzSejLnhz9sLtoHQHUtmuDiJmBuDYqNdV0dsLIXk3FNVzPXtRyuEAmg$ On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" originated? Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200517/37759ab3/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Sat May 16 20:27:39 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 13:27:39 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> Message-ID: <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> You're never going to succeed in formally capturing the full scope of the theory in a word, Annalisa. "socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory" still leave out biology and Darwin, which is a part of our theory, too. It is sometimes said that human development is the coincidence of *four* processes: *phylogenesis *(i.e., evolution of the species), cultural development (*ethnogenesis*, the development of technology *and *language), *social development* (one and the same culture has different classes and political groups side by side) and *ontogenesis *(even twins can grow up very differently according to the experiences (/perezhivaniya/) they go through). I tried to describe this in: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/ontogenesis.htm__;!!Mih3wA!Vn9T05o4yQ8JmcN8k0Rcq65ZDZvXCxCkPwjrS8BQz_aRy-V218xJbfgO-7EiQaXB3YgOwg$ But if you look into the history of a word what you will inevitably find is that at some point (in time and social space) there was some dispute, and this dispute was either (1) resolved by both parties agreeing and marking this agreement by the coining of a new word meaning or the dropping of a word meaning altogether, or (2) there is a split and one or both sides of the split adopt a word meaning which distinguishes them from the other side (structuralism's favourite trope) or variations on the above scenarios. So the choice of a word tends to locate the user on a branch in the cultural evolutionary tree. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 17/05/2020 11:56 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > David K & VO's > > What pray-tell is an anthropologue? > > I am divided (pun intended) about saying that > sociocultural = social + culture, when they are > intertwined holistically. To me, sociocultural points to a > space in between, or perhaps better said to a context of > interactions between individuals (who form a society) that > are easily accepted among them and practiced over time. > > We can conceptually parse out the social and the cultural, > but don't we do that because of the words and not because > of the ostensible reality going on interactionally? Can we > always understand something by dissecting it into parts? > > Again, this seems to be the limit of language, not of the > conceptual context or content. > > In a sense to use the term "sociocultural" is to grab the > tail of the tiger. The tail of the tiger is still the > tiger, but perhaps a more manageable one than to grab its > head. > > Perhaps this is why Vygotskians just call themselves > Vygotskians to align themselves with the source of the > first theories rather than to later conceptions and other > developments (i.e. Leontiev, etc). Just thinking out loud. > > Another argument is that if we want to be all inclusive, > then we have to include tool-use, as it's not the social, > the culture, and the history, but also the language and > tools used. I realize some practitioners would say that > language is no different than a tool, but I feel language > is different, even though it may have a similar cognitive > response in the mind as would using a tool. > > Activity suggests tool use, though not always. Consider > dance, or storytelling, or going for a walk. > > How about: socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity > theory??? > > Yes! I am writing this a little tongue in cheek. I hope > you do not mind. > > Kind regards, > > Annalsia > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David > Kellogg > *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:14 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > *? [EXTERNAL]* > > ** > It's a very domain-specific umbrella, like those > cane-brollies that go with a bowler. "Sociocultural" is > strongly preferred used in second language acquisition, > thanks to the influence of Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf and > Matthew Poehner; I have never seen "cultural historical" > used in this literature. But "cultural-historical" is > similarly preferred in psychology and anthropology, thanks > to the influence of J.V. Wertsch, Mike Cole,?Martin Packer > and Andy Blunden;?that's really why we are having this > discussion on what "socio-cultural" might mean on a list > largely populated by roving?psychologists and nomadic > anthropologues. > > Interestingly, the Francophones prefer > "historico-cultural", using the argument that you can > understand the process without the product but not the > product without the process. I stopped using > "sociocultural" because I thought it was redundant, but > now I am really not sure of this: it seems to me that the > relationship is a similar one--you can study society as > process without studying its cultural product (e.g. as > demographics, economics, statistics) but you can't really > study culture without some understanding of the process of > its formation. > > There was a similar disagreement in systemic functional > linguistics between Halliday and Jim Martin over the term > "socio-semiotic". Martin said that it was redundant, > because there couldn't be any semiotic without > society.?Halliday rather flippantly replied that ants had > a society without a semiotics, and at the time it seemed > to me that?this was a?non sequitur,?first of all because > ants don't really have a society in our?sense (precisely > because there is no such thing as an ant history separate > from phylogenesis on the one hand and ontogenesis on the > other) and secondly because ants most definitely do have a > semiotics, albeit one based on chemistry and not > perception as ours is. > > It seems to me, in retrospect, that the relationship > between the semiotic and the social is much more like the > relationship between the social and the biological, or > even the biological and the chemical. The semiotic is a > certain level of organization that the social has, but > there are other?levels, just as biology is a certain kind > of chemical organization which does not exclude other, > nonbiological ways organizing chemicals, and?chemistry is > a kind of physical organization which doesn't exclude > sub-chemical organizations. > > Perhaps we can think of the relationship between culture > and society in the same way? > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a > manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!Vn9T05o4yQ8JmcN8k0Rcq65ZDZvXCxCkPwjrS8BQz_aRy-V218xJbfgO-7EiQaV0jRzSWQ$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. Vygotsky's > Pedological Works/ /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Vn9T05o4yQ8JmcN8k0Rcq65ZDZvXCxCkPwjrS8BQz_aRy-V218xJbfgO-7EiQaUE_dij5g$ > > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David H Kirshner > > wrote: > > 4. As an umbrella term for any sociogenetic approach. > > Isn?t that its current usage? > > David > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On Behalf > Of *Annalisa Aguilar > *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > Hi Andy, and VO's, > > What fascinates me is that the word "sociocultural" > has a lot of different facets in terms of how the word > was used in different contexts. It seems there are > three I've been able to pick out. > > 1. as a derisive term in early Soviet history. > 2. as an empowering term from Latin American voices. > 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist "brand" at the > height of the Cold War in the US. > > I'm not sure if I've done justice in the manner that > I've represented that, but it is a well-intended > attempt. Are there others? > > What I don't understand fully is whether there must be > ONE explanation how the term came to be, or ONE > definition of what it actually means. Can't it be > polysemantic?? polycontextual? > > If that is what's happening, then it makes sense that > there would be an ongoing controversy about which one > is the right definition or reason for not using it, > depending on the interlocutor. > > If we are to talk about who used the term first, and > that's where the value/authority holds, then all that > tells us is that for those who value who used the term > first. that's where the authority is. > > If we talk about the emotional attachment of the word > as it is used in context and that's where the > value/authority holds, then that tells us for those > who value the most personal attachment to the word, > that's where the authority is. > > If we talk about how the word was used functionally, > where the value/authority holds in its efficacy, then > all that tells is that for those who value whether the > word works or not, that's where the authority is. > > I'm not sure one can put any of one these over the > other two (or if there are more than that, if there > are more). All we can say I suppose is whether in a > particular context is the word "sociocultural" > appropriate or not? > > I do find that this debate has begun to have its own > life, this debate over the use of a word. I've begun > doubt it will ever cease. > > One day the discussion will be how one used to debate > about the term, first everyone was this way about the > word, than they were that way about the word, and many > large camps were formed in XXXX year to say why the > word should not be used, but then X years later other > large camps formed to say it is fine to use the word. > I suppose it will only be when the debate ceases will > it come to pass that the debate will be forgotten. But > will that cessation solidify the use or non-use of the > word? > > I understand the reasons for saying "cultural > psychology." But for those swimming in a culture where > behaviorism is considered the soul of psychology, > adding "cultural" becomes a sad necessity.? Even then, > that necessity only depends upon how one sees culture, > as either as an additive, an integral ingredient of > psychology, or its basis. I believe I've read on the > list that one should be able to say "psychology" and > just *know* that it includes culture. I don't think we > are there yet. > > Then that would be my argument to use "sociocultural" > to understand it includes history. CHAT is sort of a > defensive term (well, it is an acronym). But then... > it leaves out "social" and is that OK? We certainly > should not say sociocultural historical activity > theory because that acronym is very unfulfilling. What > is nice about CHAT though is that to chat is an > activity of speech, and there is a implied meaning > that also pertains to Vygotskian theories, and > therefore meaningful. > > In a sense, it's not the meaning that we are arguing > over, but how the limitations of our particular > language fails to convey a meaning with such precision > that it thereby to parses away any other inappropriate > meaning. I'm just not sure that the project is one > that can be achieved successfully, even if it succeeds > for an interim. > > At the same time I can see why story of the elephant > and the blind men also have a part to play in our > understandings and assumptions. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf of > Andy Blunden > > *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > *[EXTERNAL]* > > Annalisa, I have only been talking and writing about > Vygotsky and co. since about 2000 and have been openly > Marxist since the 1960s (indeed, Vygotsky is core to > how I understand Marx) and never had any reason not to > be. But it is true that when Mike first went to > Moscow, it was at the height of the Cold War, and when > he and others first brought Vygotsky's ideas to the > USA, there was a lot of resistance to their Marxist > content. I think the naming issue only arose as > Vygotsky and the others began to build a real > following. The issues with the choice of name change > over the years, as you say. I prefer" CHAT," but > sometimes I use "Cultural Psychology" and sometimes I > use "Activity Theory" depending on the context. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Andy, et al, > > I sort of came to this a little late in the > thread, but I can offer that Vera John-Steiner > didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian > theory, but as I learn more about the word (thank > you Mike), I can see how once a word is utilized > with intent of derision, it's hard for the > association to be broken. > > I think it's that way with words all the time > coming and going out of favor, or meanings > shifting, like the game of telephone, but across > generations and cultures. > > Might I contribute to the discussion by asking > whether the use of "sociocultural" was also a > means of making the theories more available in the > West (at least in the US). It seems there was > redscare (you are welcome read the double > entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as you like) > prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the > Marxist "brand" to access the actual theories on > child development? In other words, to depoliticize > the science? > > I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but > as time passes, I can see its problems. > > For me, I had preferred the word because > historical was always a given for me. In concern > of the here and now, the real difficulty I had > thought was understanding the social- how > interactions between the child and the > caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the > -cultural, how the culture impacts thought, those > things are more of the micro level, but also > sociocultural, how the two also can interact and > influence one another and that combined bears its > own signature on the mind and its development.? As > far as History (capital H) that is sort of > difficult to measure when we are talking about > child development as there is very little history > that a child has, unless we are talking about > genetics, I suppose. > > Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect > and am enriched by the discourse in which we now > we find ourselves immersed about it so thanks to > all for this. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf > of Andy Blunden > > *Sent:* Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > *[EXTERNAL]* > > In response to requests, I will elaborate. > Apologies to Mike if I have garbled the long and > complex story he told. I have done my best. > > Jim Wertsch said: > > Various people undoubtedly have various > accounts of this, but I consciously started to > use this in order to bring in cultural > anthropology and also to avoid the unexamined > social evolutionism in some approaches that I > was building from. I believe I started > highlighting it in my 1985 book on Vygotsky, > and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my > book Voices of the Mind.? It is not a term > used by Soviet scholars when talking about the > Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there > were ?socio-historical? or ?cultural-historical.? > > Mike Cole told me: > > In addition to what has been said on line ... > initially, the term "sociocultural" was used > as a term of abuse by the opponents of > Vygotsky's ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so > it was not a term which his Russian followers > ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to > Vygotsky came to a head, apparently, in 1986 > when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the > Soviets prevented Russian delegates form > attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a > sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet > Union, and was angry about what he saw, was at > the congress too and went from there to a > conference in Spain where a group of Spanish > Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists > had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global > South" and they used the term "sociocultural" > for their approach, meaning something like > Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced > this idea and henceforth adopted to term, > meaning to distinguish himself from the > Soviet-influence. CHAT emerged as a term a > little later in an effort to unite the > followers of the various brands of "Activity > Theory" with those who did not embrace the > Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian > followers and stuck with Vygotsky. CHAT > includes the H for History, because in all the > various terms being used at that time, there > was no attention to the important place of > History in theory, and it was Mike who > insisted on its inclusion. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: > > I should have reported progress with my question. > > Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike > Cole Skyped me and between these two I have a > very rich history of the usage of this term > and the various nuances it acquired and shed, > and Mike has put the article Martin referred > to on his academia.edu > > page for us all to read. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!Vn9T05o4yQ8JmcN8k0Rcq65ZDZvXCxCkPwjrS8BQz_aRy-V218xJbfgO-7EiQaXU4uGd1A$ > > > As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless > mine of wisdom. Thank you. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: > > Thank you Anthony for the interesting > question and link. The way I see this > issue is that?Vygotskian work attempts?to > understand human activity > multi-dimensionally (or even better > holistically, trying to reunite what the > emergence of various parochial disciplines > have pulled?apart for analysis of the > separate dimensions).? The different terms > that Veresov points out as contending are > simply foregrounding those sets of > components that are most salient to the > particular analyst at that moment.? To > those we might add other elements that > Vygotsky was interested in such as > consciousness and language and experience > and mediation (and even economics and > human knowledge?and education lurk in the > background, as well as human > neurodiversity as well as materialities of > the experienced world).? That is the > wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may > have developed some of the components more > than others and he was acting nominally as > a psychologist--yet his approach allows > the integration of all these components. > > I therefore use different conjunctions of > terms depending on what I am talking > about, and I see activity as the > overarching term--though this does not > necessarily mean triangles all the time.? > Rather activity is humans in motion, > mobilizing multiple internal and external > resources in situations. > > While I would like some stability in > terms, right now our different concerns > and issues leave salience mutable. And I > am not yet?comfortable in being terminally > enlisted into another scholar's transient > saliencies. > > BTW, I see another related, parallel > attempt at reintegrating the social > sciences in the pragmatist project which > has at times been in communication with > the activity theory project (see my paper > "Practically Human").? This project also > never settled on a coherent set of terms > and stable concepts. > > Chuck > > ---- > > ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? > > ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? > > Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de > inmigrantes. > > The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. > > History will judge. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!Vn9T05o4yQ8JmcN8k0Rcq65ZDZvXCxCkPwjrS8BQz_aRy-V218xJbfgO-7EiQaWTh_h-zQ$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!Vn9T05o4yQ8JmcN8k0Rcq65ZDZvXCxCkPwjrS8BQz_aRy-V218xJbfgO-7EiQaWWOxqnDw$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!Vn9T05o4yQ8JmcN8k0Rcq65ZDZvXCxCkPwjrS8BQz_aRy-V218xJbfgO-7EiQaX7do8B9Q$ > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony > Barra > wrote: > > Interesting question (and follow-ups) > here. Thanks, Andy. > > While not 100% related, I wonder if > this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any > value: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!Vn9T05o4yQ8JmcN8k0Rcq65ZDZvXCxCkPwjrS8BQz_aRy-V218xJbfgO-7EiQaX4_W9ppw$ > ?"Pros > and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" > > As a non-expert, I can empathize with > Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so > sure the cons outweigh the pros here. > > But what WOULD happen if a > terminological consensus was formed -- > could Vygotsky's theory (and > methodology), in fact, be definitively > defined?? If so, would the?benefits of > doing so outweigh the constraints? > > I'm guessing this is an old > conversation, and maybe even stale, > but I'm more outsider than insider and > don't really know. > > Thank you for any insight. > > Anthony > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM > Martin Packer > wrote: > > I had assumed you were looking for > uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, > Andy. > > Jim used the term in titles in > 1989 too. And in the introduction > to this book he, along with Pablo > del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, > explain why in their view it?s the > best term: > > > > Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & > Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). > /Sociocultural studies of mind./ > Cambridge University Press. > > Martin > > > > On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, > Andy Blunden > > > wrote: > > Thanks to everyone for their > help. It all went into the > mix. Indeed, the term seems to > have migrated from Spanish to > English and the word > "sociocultural" became popular > in 1990, and it seems that Jim > Wertsch is the fellow who > triggered the explosion in > "sociocultural psychology" > with "Voices of the mind : a > sociocultural approach to > mediated action > " > published by Harvard > University Press in 1991. > > Although "sociocultural" seems > to be most widely associated > with "context dependence," > Wertsch's reference to > "mediated action" in the title > of this book makes it clear > that for him "context" > referred to the signs and > artefacts mediating action. > > Thanks again to all > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David > Kellogg wrote: > > Andy-- > > Go to to the Google N-gram > site itself. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!Vn9T05o4yQ8JmcN8k0Rcq65ZDZvXCxCkPwjrS8BQz_aRy-V218xJbfgO-7EiQaUHRBe3_w$ > > > Then do your own n-gram > for "sociocultural > psychology". If you set > the years you'll get > better granularity in the > document search. > > On the bottom of the > n-gram, there are some > dates in blue--when you > click on them, you should > get a list of all the > books used in the search. > > dk > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya > Hasan, in memoriam: A > manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!Vn9T05o4yQ8JmcN8k0Rcq65ZDZvXCxCkPwjrS8BQz_aRy-V218xJbfgO-7EiQaV0jRzSWQ$ > > > New Translation with > Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. > Vygotsky's Pedological > Works/ /Volume One: > Foundations of Pedology/" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Vn9T05o4yQ8JmcN8k0Rcq65ZDZvXCxCkPwjrS8BQz_aRy-V218xJbfgO-7EiQaUE_dij5g$ > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at > 11:17 AM Martin Packer > > > wrote: > > The earliest use of > the term > ?sociocultural? I?ve > been able to find in > English is this: > > A?sociocultural > psychology, by?Rogelio > Diaz-Guerrero > > In "Chicano > psychology", 1977 - > Academic Press > > Diaz-Guerrero was > Mexican psychologists > whose publications in > Spanish use the term > ?sociocultural? > frequently. > > The 2nd edition of > Chicano Psychology is > available in Google > books, > and?Diaz-Guerrero has > a chapter in it, but > titled The > psychological study of > the Mexican. > > Martin > > > > On May 12, 2020, > at 8:47 PM, Andy > Blunden > > > wrote: > > That graph from > Google shows that > usage of the term > took off in 1988. > How do we find out > who wrote what in > 1988? > > And Google also > tell us that > "Sociocultural?theory > grew from the work > of > seminal?psychologist?Lev > Vygotsky, who > believed that > parents, > caregivers, peers, > and the culture at > large were > responsible for > developing > higher-order > functions. > According to > Vygotsky, learning > has its basis in > interacting with > other people," > together with a > reference. So that > is nice. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social > Movements > > Home Page > > > > On 13/05/2020 > 11:30 am, David > Kellogg wrote: > > Andy: > > I did a Google > N-gram on it. > You probably > thought of > doing this > too, but > here's what I got. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!Vn9T05o4yQ8JmcN8k0Rcq65ZDZvXCxCkPwjrS8BQz_aRy-V218xJbfgO-7EiQaUX1KNoOg$ > " > width=900 > height=500 > marginwidth=0 > marginheight=0 > hspace=0 > vspace=0 > frameborder=0 > scrolling=no > > So it all > starts around > 1960. At first > I thought this > probably > referred to > the Hanfmann > and Vakar > "Thought and > Language", but > when I looked > the only books > that used the > term were > sports > psychology > books. The big > uptick after > 1992 is > Vygotsky though. > > Of course, > this is all > English only. > I am sure you > will find very > different > results in > German, where > "cultural > historical > psychology" is > the trend > identified > with Dilthey, > Spranger, and > neo-Kantianism > generally. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung > University > > New Article: > Ruqaiya Hasan, > in memoriam: A > manual and a > manifesto. > > Outlines, > Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!Vn9T05o4yQ8JmcN8k0Rcq65ZDZvXCxCkPwjrS8BQz_aRy-V218xJbfgO-7EiQaV0jRzSWQ$ > > > New > Translation > with Nikolai > Veresov: /L.S. > Vygotsky's > Pedological > Works/ /Volume > One: > Foundations of > Pedology/" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Vn9T05o4yQ8JmcN8k0Rcq65ZDZvXCxCkPwjrS8BQz_aRy-V218xJbfgO-7EiQaUE_dij5g$ > > > On Tue, May > 12, 2020 at > 10:43 PM Andy > Blunden > > > wrote: > > Can anyone > tell me > when and > with whom > the term > "sociocultural > psychology" > originated? > > Andy > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for > Social > Movements > > Home Page > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200517/f5c5c187/attachment.html From d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk Sun May 17 02:19:22 2020 From: d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk (WEBSTER, DAVID S.) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 09:19:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala In-Reply-To: References: <7CF68C44-2A31-4E98-8DE7-11FC0B8AE8E3@gmail.com> <002801d62a7d$417b5a50$c4720ef0$@smu.ac.za> <23CB0D56-30A3-497F-AF5F-4E4F65721AD7@gmail.com> , <0BF7D8AD-6F6F-4DCB-87D4-BA2EE8A9E05F@gmail.com>, , , , , Message-ID: Perhaps the problem I am having is I can't see why you wish to have Druids exist. Or rather what function or significance their existence has for you. I'm missing something here, though I am certainly not saying Druids or something like them could not exist. After all, we have today out own mystics, and poets and purveyors of incantations, and sacrifice-based religions - and the Druids were implicated on this count as well. Apropos Wittgenstein on Frazer 'It was not a trivial reason, for in reality there can be no reason, that prompted certain races of mankind to venerate the oak tree, but only the fact that they and the oak were united in a community of life, and that they arose together not by chance but rather like the flea and the dog (If fleas developed a right, it would be based on the dog).' And ' but what I see in those stories is nevertheless acquired by the evidence, including such evidence as does not appear to be directly connected with them, - through the thoughts of man and his past, through all the strange things I see, and have seen and heard about, in myself and others.' Regards David ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 16 May 2020 19:43 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Hi David, and venerable others, Forgive me for my meager straws. All you are saying is that because something is not verifiable (with authority) it can't exist. Is that not so? That makes no sense to me. We know that the Druids existed, and we know from observations of another culture (the Romans) that they were important to their people, they were considered the holders of wisdom, and that they were masters of language (poetry and storytelling). I'm not sure what it means to say any of this is impossible to assert just because we cannot decode this from archeological findings. Nothing can ever be precise even with the most data because then one could argue about interpretation of that data. It is the simplest thing to poke a stick in the spokes and doesn't require any interpretation. True, Merlin and Arthur are legends (i.e. Le Mort d'Arthur) but these stories did not erupt spontaneously like a science fiction story in the 1960s. (Although one could argue that Star Trek is a fanciful futuristic rendering of human culture when the model of the United Nation was an aspiration, coming out of the two world wars.) Stories, legends, mythologies, and so on come from somewhere. They live on because they resonate within. The knowing or assertion of a precise genesis in some ways become moot, because such stories are beginningless. Then it becomes a matter of function. How do the stories work. By coincidence (or synchronicity) I've just began reading the recent release of Hau's book "Wittgenstein's Remarks on Frazier's Golden Bough." I wonder whether the topic of that book has a topical thread to offer here. I not yet read Philosophical Investigations to fully understand Wittgenstein's concept of language games, but W's Remarks certainly seem to fascinate anthropologists, since they are tasked to make sense of human culture, which includes ritual. I can't speak with any authority (actually I never try to speak with authority), as I've just cracked it, but one of the first discussions pertains to swapping one symbol for another symbol (symbolism) as opposed to explanation. I wonder if this might be the crux of our own debate, in terms of style. Meaning can be conveyed both ways. Perhaps it has to do with intuition vs rational, and which of these paths one wishes to travel, either by preference or habit. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 2:06 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Morning Annalisa, Sorry, but I think you are clutching at a very few straws in the wind when it comes to Druids, and even more so with Arthur and Merlin, whose canonical form originates with high medieval romance fiction, e.g. Geoffrey of Monmouth's (1095-1155) History of the Kings of Britton (1136) and which starts, no less, from the arrival of refugees from the sack of Troy. The problem with folk stories is they are just that, folk stories, and which folks are at issue. Britton (The Isles of the Mighty!), and from well before the Romans was often settled from elsewhere in continental Europe (as witness by step-change in material culture). As for the autochthonic Brits circa the last, ice age (12-13000 yrs ago) and who, for obvious reasons, were also incomers, well, who knows. Regards David ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 15 May 2020 21:56 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Hi David, Alas that Capital H-history were only based upon the conquest of the victors. Fortunately folk stories are carried down in a verbal tradition. (Another power of speech!) We do know something of the Druids, though I agree with you, not as much as we might like. The same can be said about the Cathars. Few know of them either, even today. Many cultures of the past have been decimated and from that we have inherited a distorted lens by which to examine them. Poor us! We know of the Ancient Greeks, the Ancient Egyptians too, because of someone writing it all down and the parchment and stone lasting through the ages, in some cases not that well, for us to piece together bit by bit, translate and reflect. Only to argue theories of what once was. The Vedic culture, interestingly, is one ancient culture that has remained intact, unlike the culture of the Ancient Greeks or Ancient Egyptians. One reason that I find it so captivating because it provides me an unadulterated view of how the ancients (of that time and place) thought. By the way, that is not to say I'm promoting caste systems, or that that it is somehow a perfect social system. The number of Sanskrit texts available is staggering, and those scholars prepared to preserve them for posterity are steadfast in their duty to pass it down, as had been done before them. There are interesting activity triangles in the way Karma is understood that I feel is comparable to Vygotsky's theories of development of higher psychological functions. Karma is the Sanskrit word for "action" which most people might already know. The system of karma has a qualitative function that in a simplistic way entails the old saw, "what goes around comes around," but with more nuance lays out how an individual can choose to act in order to gain a particular outcome, that has a gross and subtle result as consequence, which could also be translated as "seen" and "unseen" consequences. I suppose the Buddha, who came along later, elected to focus on mind and its different qualities, however for the most part Buddhist vocabulary or its conceptual library is a borrowing (or anti-borrowing) from Vedic culture. It is difficult to not think of an elephant when one has brought it up in the first place. I find another commonality with Vygotskian-generated theories (aka CHAT) vis ? vis the Vedic and Buddhist worldviews is that each has a stance of liberation as the final achievement. Who doesn't want to be free? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 2:34 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Druid culture? Presume you mean mid-late 1st century AD Iron Age Britain. We know a lot about the houses they lived in, the kind of weapons, pottery and cloth and art an such like, they made, their agricultural practices and diet. As for Druids, well...only such self-serving stories the Romans chose to relate. Next to nothing about their language though; lot of speculation of course. Regards David ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 15 May 2020 19:27 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Hola Henry, No worries. As far as "Shaktism", be wary of Angli-sliced words, and what they do to the underlying meanings. Shakti is Sanskrit to mean "power" and just like in English the word can be used in many contexts, as is the same with shakti. For example in Vedic culture, speech is considered to have shakti. And from what little we know of Driud culture, Druids were considered masters of language and could halt wars with a speech. Merlin is a prototype, who is sometimes reduced to a magician-wizard, but certainly casting spells is another way of describing power to speech in the west, but that is perhaps a method that disempowers because to cast a spell is considered superstitious and not a valid somehow. And yet there is a peculiar phenomenon I see in our stable genius how he will repeat over and over the same fallacy and it has an impact I would not say is far removed from casting a spell. It is a kind of shakti that he wields to detrimental effect. Shakti can also be translated into we call in the west a "gift," such as a prodigy five-year-old pianist. But shakti is that. I feel that shakti is tied more to the person where "gift" divides seems to divide the power from the person, as if the person (exercising the gift) had no cause in its generation. This of course leads to the entire disembodied genius mythology, right? which only separates even more, rather than to unify. As I see it, there is in our western cultural-historical progression a habit to remove the subtle from the gross, where in Vedic culture they inhabit the same loci without conflict, in fact that are considered of the same substrate: a form that matter might take is on a continuum of degree (subtle to gross). Consider how H2O can travel from gas to liquid to solid. Perhaps this need to divide the subtle from the gross in the west is a Cartesian residue. I believe that to be the case. At the same time in Vedic culture, shakti is considered the feminine, perhaps because it is subtle. Not sure what it means to ascribe gender to the subtle vs gross, but at the least there is poetry in it. Really my contribution to highlight the role model of Durga is also to suggest how little we do see of the female as warrior or even less as the protective mother. Once in a while we might reference a Grizzly bear and her cubs, but it's quite peripheral when it comes to the roles of women in American culture. I truly admire the Prime Minister of New Zealand. She is certainly bursting of Durga shakti! ? If only we could manage to cultivate that here on our own terra firma. But strawberries will have to do for the time being! Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 12:26 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Good Day Annalisa, So sorry. Not the first time I have stumbled here. This one is hilarious and, of course, avoidable. I hope to do better with my next turn. Your link to the Times article is very interesting, related to David K?s list of men and women leaders in the face of COVID-19. I did look up Durga and Shaktism in Hinduism. Very interesting reflections on forms of power. Nourishing for the future has been planting strawberry plants in straw bales in our back yard. Stay well, Henry On May 15, 2020, at 12:01 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello Henry, It was me that sent the link regarding Kerala. And you did spell my name correctly. There is also an Annalie on the list (not moi). I found also this link in the NYT about a similar topic: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/15/world/coronavirus-women-leaders.html__;!!Mih3wA!UHiFvqbJgKKQ5zSTjIkBXvhYS7RT2ptuoXLr7UzcLSU0VPiUZeuAz-uNA9ttKWF1_nx5vg$ I will contemplate brown M&M's as well (read on into the next article below the above one). One Indian goddess whom I've always admired is Durga, the protective-mother incarnation of Kali the consort of Shiva. I feel as a world we could use the influence of Durga as a model to be our better selves, caring and protective is a preventative measure not a reactive one. To nourish is to become strong. What have you done to be nourishing today? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of HENRY SHONERD > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 10:39 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Hi AnnaLIE, I apologize for getting your name wrong. There is someone who engages with the chat by the name of Annalie, and I thought it was she who had sent the link to the Guardian artilcle on Shailaja. Usually Annalisa writes very long posts, so I was pleasantly surprised by the brevity of the post. Ha! Henry On May 14, 2020, at 11:54 PM, Annalie Pistorius > wrote: Yes, it shows the strength of a community-based approach that is a hands-on everyone learns everything approach practical critical method. Yeah to Shailaja?s plan to upscale teacher training to health care of patients. Annalie From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Friday, 15 May 2020 1:02 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Wonderful article, Annalisa! Definitely welcome good news about good leadership inthe face of COVID-19: K.K. Shailaja, health minister of the state of Kerala in India. A woman and a member of the Communist Party there. Already a celebrity because of the way she handled an even deadlier virus in 2018. From the article in the Guardian, ?In a way she had been preparing for a similar outbreak all her life.? From what we have been reading for years from epidemiologists, COVID-19 is a dress rehearsal for even deadlier viruses. Kerala has the highest literacy rate, the highest life expectancy and the lowest infant mortality in India. Meanwhile, the Trump team is sending out surveys that allow people to get high scores on their hatred of socialism. Tooting my New Mexico horn, we have a woman governor that has shown great leadership in maintaining social distancing. However, our literacy is among the lowest in the country and push back from deniers and conspiracy theorists has been ugly. Infection rates have been disproportionately high among Native Americans, particularly Navajos and some Pueblos, though death rates of those infected are highest among whites. Henry On May 14, 2020, at 3:26 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello fellow XMCArs, I thought this might be some good news, given all the bad news: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/14/the-coronavirus-slayer-how-keralas-rock-star-health-minister-helped-save-it-from-covid-19__;!!Mih3wA!UHiFvqbJgKKQ5zSTjIkBXvhYS7RT2ptuoXLr7UzcLSU0VPiUZeuAz-uNA9ttKWHWhI_UwA$ Cheers, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200517/8ae4e8b5/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sun May 17 10:25:45 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 17:25:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> References: <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> , <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> Message-ID: Hi Andy (& VO's), I think that that was my point, that we cannot capture everything in the word to describe the theory. And that is because of the limit of our language. Even where genesis actually is, where something starts can be difficult to pinpoint. I mean where does History actually start? These words that you mention phylogenesis, ethnogenesis, ontogenesis, are words that are like brackets of a pair of parentheses. Who decides where to put them? (And why not sociogenesis?) I'm not sure it's correct to say the choice of a word locates the user on a branch of a cultural evolutionary tree, because then that starts to mean that one speaker is more evolved than another based on the use of a word. It might be better to say that the choice of a word locates the user to a particular context. I could live with that. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:27 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] You're never going to succeed in formally capturing the full scope of the theory in a word, Annalisa. "socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory" still leave out biology and Darwin, which is a part of our theory, too. It is sometimes said that human development is the coincidence of four processes: phylogenesis (i.e., evolution of the species), cultural development (ethnogenesis, the development of technology and language), social development (one and the same culture has different classes and political groups side by side) and ontogenesis (even twins can grow up very differently according to the experiences (perezhivaniya) they go through). I tried to describe this in: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/ontogenesis.htm__;!!Mih3wA!TzfCFzbKomJcXZBCmvbXoWh6P1nXI7FTyQ6RuBGfmySS9_rE5NGnXlX9sAJn-UyUYjSMBw$ But if you look into the history of a word what you will inevitably find is that at some point (in time and social space) there was some dispute, and this dispute was either (1) resolved by both parties agreeing and marking this agreement by the coining of a new word meaning or the dropping of a word meaning altogether, or (2) there is a split and one or both sides of the split adopt a word meaning which distinguishes them from the other side (structuralism's favourite trope) or variations on the above scenarios. So the choice of a word tends to locate the user on a branch in the cultural evolutionary tree. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 17/05/2020 11:56 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: David K & VO's What pray-tell is an anthropologue? I am divided (pun intended) about saying that sociocultural = social + culture, when they are intertwined holistically. To me, sociocultural points to a space in between, or perhaps better said to a context of interactions between individuals (who form a society) that are easily accepted among them and practiced over time. We can conceptually parse out the social and the cultural, but don't we do that because of the words and not because of the ostensible reality going on interactionally? Can we always understand something by dissecting it into parts? Again, this seems to be the limit of language, not of the conceptual context or content. In a sense to use the term "sociocultural" is to grab the tail of the tiger. The tail of the tiger is still the tiger, but perhaps a more manageable one than to grab its head. Perhaps this is why Vygotskians just call themselves Vygotskians to align themselves with the source of the first theories rather than to later conceptions and other developments (i.e. Leontiev, etc). Just thinking out loud. Another argument is that if we want to be all inclusive, then we have to include tool-use, as it's not the social, the culture, and the history, but also the language and tools used. I realize some practitioners would say that language is no different than a tool, but I feel language is different, even though it may have a similar cognitive response in the mind as would using a tool. Activity suggests tool use, though not always. Consider dance, or storytelling, or going for a walk. How about: socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory??? Yes! I am writing this a little tongue in cheek. I hope you do not mind. Kind regards, Annalsia ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:14 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] It's a very domain-specific umbrella, like those cane-brollies that go with a bowler. "Sociocultural" is strongly preferred used in second language acquisition, thanks to the influence of Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf and Matthew Poehner; I have never seen "cultural historical" used in this literature. But "cultural-historical" is similarly preferred in psychology and anthropology, thanks to the influence of J.V. Wertsch, Mike Cole, Martin Packer and Andy Blunden; that's really why we are having this discussion on what "socio-cultural" might mean on a list largely populated by roving psychologists and nomadic anthropologues. Interestingly, the Francophones prefer "historico-cultural", using the argument that you can understand the process without the product but not the product without the process. I stopped using "sociocultural" because I thought it was redundant, but now I am really not sure of this: it seems to me that the relationship is a similar one--you can study society as process without studying its cultural product (e.g. as demographics, economics, statistics) but you can't really study culture without some understanding of the process of its formation. There was a similar disagreement in systemic functional linguistics between Halliday and Jim Martin over the term "socio-semiotic". Martin said that it was redundant, because there couldn't be any semiotic without society. Halliday rather flippantly replied that ants had a society without a semiotics, and at the time it seemed to me that this was a non sequitur, first of all because ants don't really have a society in our sense (precisely because there is no such thing as an ant history separate from phylogenesis on the one hand and ontogenesis on the other) and secondly because ants most definitely do have a semiotics, albeit one based on chemistry and not perception as ours is. It seems to me, in retrospect, that the relationship between the semiotic and the social is much more like the relationship between the social and the biological, or even the biological and the chemical. The semiotic is a certain level of organization that the social has, but there are other levels, just as biology is a certain kind of chemical organization which does not exclude other, nonbiological ways organizing chemicals, and chemistry is a kind of physical organization which doesn't exclude sub-chemical organizations. Perhaps we can think of the relationship between culture and society in the same way? David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!TzfCFzbKomJcXZBCmvbXoWh6P1nXI7FTyQ6RuBGfmySS9_rE5NGnXlX9sAJn-UzvJtQWHQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TzfCFzbKomJcXZBCmvbXoWh6P1nXI7FTyQ6RuBGfmySS9_rE5NGnXlX9sAJn-Uy223NGDQ$ On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David H Kirshner > wrote: 4. As an umbrella term for any sociogenetic approach. Isn?t that its current usage? David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? Hi Andy, and VO's, What fascinates me is that the word "sociocultural" has a lot of different facets in terms of how the word was used in different contexts. It seems there are three I've been able to pick out. 1. as a derisive term in early Soviet history. 2. as an empowering term from Latin American voices. 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist "brand" at the height of the Cold War in the US. I'm not sure if I've done justice in the manner that I've represented that, but it is a well-intended attempt. Are there others? What I don't understand fully is whether there must be ONE explanation how the term came to be, or ONE definition of what it actually means. Can't it be polysemantic? polycontextual? If that is what's happening, then it makes sense that there would be an ongoing controversy about which one is the right definition or reason for not using it, depending on the interlocutor. If we are to talk about who used the term first, and that's where the value/authority holds, then all that tells us is that for those who value who used the term first. that's where the authority is. If we talk about the emotional attachment of the word as it is used in context and that's where the value/authority holds, then that tells us for those who value the most personal attachment to the word, that's where the authority is. If we talk about how the word was used functionally, where the value/authority holds in its efficacy, then all that tells is that for those who value whether the word works or not, that's where the authority is. I'm not sure one can put any of one these over the other two (or if there are more than that, if there are more). All we can say I suppose is whether in a particular context is the word "sociocultural" appropriate or not? I do find that this debate has begun to have its own life, this debate over the use of a word. I've begun doubt it will ever cease. One day the discussion will be how one used to debate about the term, first everyone was this way about the word, than they were that way about the word, and many large camps were formed in XXXX year to say why the word should not be used, but then X years later other large camps formed to say it is fine to use the word. I suppose it will only be when the debate ceases will it come to pass that the debate will be forgotten. But will that cessation solidify the use or non-use of the word? I understand the reasons for saying "cultural psychology." But for those swimming in a culture where behaviorism is considered the soul of psychology, adding "cultural" becomes a sad necessity. Even then, that necessity only depends upon how one sees culture, as either as an additive, an integral ingredient of psychology, or its basis. I believe I've read on the list that one should be able to say "psychology" and just *know* that it includes culture. I don't think we are there yet. Then that would be my argument to use "sociocultural" to understand it includes history. CHAT is sort of a defensive term (well, it is an acronym). But then... it leaves out "social" and is that OK? We certainly should not say sociocultural historical activity theory because that acronym is very unfulfilling. What is nice about CHAT though is that to chat is an activity of speech, and there is a implied meaning that also pertains to Vygotskian theories, and therefore meaningful. In a sense, it's not the meaning that we are arguing over, but how the limitations of our particular language fails to convey a meaning with such precision that it thereby to parses away any other inappropriate meaning. I'm just not sure that the project is one that can be achieved successfully, even if it succeeds for an interim. At the same time I can see why story of the elephant and the blind men also have a part to play in our understandings and assumptions. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] Annalisa, I have only been talking and writing about Vygotsky and co. since about 2000 and have been openly Marxist since the 1960s (indeed, Vygotsky is core to how I understand Marx) and never had any reason not to be. But it is true that when Mike first went to Moscow, it was at the height of the Cold War, and when he and others first brought Vygotsky's ideas to the USA, there was a lot of resistance to their Marxist content. I think the naming issue only arose as Vygotsky and the others began to build a real following. The issues with the choice of name change over the years, as you say. I prefer" CHAT," but sometimes I use "Cultural Psychology" and sometimes I use "Activity Theory" depending on the context. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: Andy, et al, I sort of came to this a little late in the thread, but I can offer that Vera John-Steiner didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian theory, but as I learn more about the word (thank you Mike), I can see how once a word is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard for the association to be broken. I think it's that way with words all the time coming and going out of favor, or meanings shifting, like the game of telephone, but across generations and cultures. Might I contribute to the discussion by asking whether the use of "sociocultural" was also a means of making the theories more available in the West (at least in the US). It seems there was redscare (you are welcome read the double entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as you like) prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the Marxist "brand" to access the actual theories on child development? In other words, to depoliticize the science? I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but as time passes, I can see its problems. For me, I had preferred the word because historical was always a given for me. In concern of the here and now, the real difficulty I had thought was understanding the social- how interactions between the child and the caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the -cultural, how the culture impacts thought, those things are more of the micro level, but also sociocultural, how the two also can interact and influence one another and that combined bears its own signature on the mind and its development. As far as History (capital H) that is sort of difficult to measure when we are talking about child development as there is very little history that a child has, unless we are talking about genetics, I suppose. Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect and am enriched by the discourse in which we now we find ourselves immersed about it so thanks to all for this. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. Jim Wertsch said: Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? or ?cultural-historical.? Mike Cole told me: In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: I should have reported progress with my question. Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin referred to on his academia.edu page for us all to read. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!TzfCFzbKomJcXZBCmvbXoWh6P1nXI7FTyQ6RuBGfmySS9_rE5NGnXlX9sAJn-Uzqi9OXKA$ As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the components more than others and he was acting nominally as a psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these components. I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. Chuck ---- ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. History will judge. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!TzfCFzbKomJcXZBCmvbXoWh6P1nXI7FTyQ6RuBGfmySS9_rE5NGnXlX9sAJn-Uxd81RUBg$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!TzfCFzbKomJcXZBCmvbXoWh6P1nXI7FTyQ6RuBGfmySS9_rE5NGnXlX9sAJn-UwWxIv_ug$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!TzfCFzbKomJcXZBCmvbXoWh6P1nXI7FTyQ6RuBGfmySS9_rE5NGnXlX9sAJn-UxVbp8mcA$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!TzfCFzbKomJcXZBCmvbXoWh6P1nXI7FTyQ6RuBGfmySS9_rE5NGnXlX9sAJn-Uwg19lAug$ "Pros and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so sure the cons outweigh the pros here. But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm more outsider than insider and don't really know. Thank you for any insight. Anthony On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer > wrote: I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their view it?s the best term: Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). Sociocultural studies of mind. Cambridge University Press. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action" published by Harvard University Press in 1991. Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and artefacts mediating action. Thanks again to all Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: Andy-- Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!TzfCFzbKomJcXZBCmvbXoWh6P1nXI7FTyQ6RuBGfmySS9_rE5NGnXlX9sAJn-UzFfwSlrQ$ Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the years you'll get better granularity in the document search. On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. dk David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!TzfCFzbKomJcXZBCmvbXoWh6P1nXI7FTyQ6RuBGfmySS9_rE5NGnXlX9sAJn-UzvJtQWHQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TzfCFzbKomJcXZBCmvbXoWh6P1nXI7FTyQ6RuBGfmySS9_rE5NGnXlX9sAJn-Uy223NGDQ$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer > wrote: The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in English is this: A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use the term ?sociocultural? frequently. The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study of the Mexican. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: Andy: I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but here's what I got. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!TzfCFzbKomJcXZBCmvbXoWh6P1nXI7FTyQ6RuBGfmySS9_rE5NGnXlX9sAJn-Uy-jC2esA$ " width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 frameborder=0 scrolling=no So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after 1992 is Vygotsky though. Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!TzfCFzbKomJcXZBCmvbXoWh6P1nXI7FTyQ6RuBGfmySS9_rE5NGnXlX9sAJn-UzvJtQWHQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TzfCFzbKomJcXZBCmvbXoWh6P1nXI7FTyQ6RuBGfmySS9_rE5NGnXlX9sAJn-Uy223NGDQ$ On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" originated? Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200517/168c6787/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sun May 17 10:35:43 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 17:35:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala In-Reply-To: References: <7CF68C44-2A31-4E98-8DE7-11FC0B8AE8E3@gmail.com> <002801d62a7d$417b5a50$c4720ef0$@smu.ac.za> <23CB0D56-30A3-497F-AF5F-4E4F65721AD7@gmail.com> , <0BF7D8AD-6F6F-4DCB-87D4-BA2EE8A9E05F@gmail.com>, , , , , , Message-ID: Hi David, It's not about a wish. Do you wish that Ancient Egyptians existed? You are the one who seems to object to the idea of Druids existing or not. You picked them out of all the other ancient cultures that I mentioned. So the problem seems to be in you, not me. It was your objection. And your quotes of W, seem to also support what I've said. So thanks for that. Though I would add that to know an oak tree is to love an oak tree, as a community of life was surely non-trivial in those times. I hope that to be true even today. ? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 3:19 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Perhaps the problem I am having is I can't see why you wish to have Druids exist. Or rather what function or significance their existence has for you. I'm missing something here, though I am certainly not saying Druids or something like them could not exist. After all, we have today out own mystics, and poets and purveyors of incantations, and sacrifice-based religions - and the Druids were implicated on this count as well. Apropos Wittgenstein on Frazer 'It was not a trivial reason, for in reality there can be no reason, that prompted certain races of mankind to venerate the oak tree, but only the fact that they and the oak were united in a community of life, and that they arose together not by chance but rather like the flea and the dog (If fleas developed a right, it would be based on the dog).' And ' but what I see in those stories is nevertheless acquired by the evidence, including such evidence as does not appear to be directly connected with them, - through the thoughts of man and his past, through all the strange things I see, and have seen and heard about, in myself and others.' Regards David ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 16 May 2020 19:43 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Hi David, and venerable others, Forgive me for my meager straws. All you are saying is that because something is not verifiable (with authority) it can't exist. Is that not so? That makes no sense to me. We know that the Druids existed, and we know from observations of another culture (the Romans) that they were important to their people, they were considered the holders of wisdom, and that they were masters of language (poetry and storytelling). I'm not sure what it means to say any of this is impossible to assert just because we cannot decode this from archeological findings. Nothing can ever be precise even with the most data because then one could argue about interpretation of that data. It is the simplest thing to poke a stick in the spokes and doesn't require any interpretation. True, Merlin and Arthur are legends (i.e. Le Mort d'Arthur) but these stories did not erupt spontaneously like a science fiction story in the 1960s. (Although one could argue that Star Trek is a fanciful futuristic rendering of human culture when the model of the United Nation was an aspiration, coming out of the two world wars.) Stories, legends, mythologies, and so on come from somewhere. They live on because they resonate within. The knowing or assertion of a precise genesis in some ways become moot, because such stories are beginningless. Then it becomes a matter of function. How do the stories work. By coincidence (or synchronicity) I've just began reading the recent release of Hau's book "Wittgenstein's Remarks on Frazier's Golden Bough." I wonder whether the topic of that book has a topical thread to offer here. I not yet read Philosophical Investigations to fully understand Wittgenstein's concept of language games, but W's Remarks certainly seem to fascinate anthropologists, since they are tasked to make sense of human culture, which includes ritual. I can't speak with any authority (actually I never try to speak with authority), as I've just cracked it, but one of the first discussions pertains to swapping one symbol for another symbol (symbolism) as opposed to explanation. I wonder if this might be the crux of our own debate, in terms of style. Meaning can be conveyed both ways. Perhaps it has to do with intuition vs rational, and which of these paths one wishes to travel, either by preference or habit. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 2:06 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Morning Annalisa, Sorry, but I think you are clutching at a very few straws in the wind when it comes to Druids, and even more so with Arthur and Merlin, whose canonical form originates with high medieval romance fiction, e.g. Geoffrey of Monmouth's (1095-1155) History of the Kings of Britton (1136) and which starts, no less, from the arrival of refugees from the sack of Troy. The problem with folk stories is they are just that, folk stories, and which folks are at issue. Britton (The Isles of the Mighty!), and from well before the Romans was often settled from elsewhere in continental Europe (as witness by step-change in material culture). As for the autochthonic Brits circa the last, ice age (12-13000 yrs ago) and who, for obvious reasons, were also incomers, well, who knows. Regards David ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 15 May 2020 21:56 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Hi David, Alas that Capital H-history were only based upon the conquest of the victors. Fortunately folk stories are carried down in a verbal tradition. (Another power of speech!) We do know something of the Druids, though I agree with you, not as much as we might like. The same can be said about the Cathars. Few know of them either, even today. Many cultures of the past have been decimated and from that we have inherited a distorted lens by which to examine them. Poor us! We know of the Ancient Greeks, the Ancient Egyptians too, because of someone writing it all down and the parchment and stone lasting through the ages, in some cases not that well, for us to piece together bit by bit, translate and reflect. Only to argue theories of what once was. The Vedic culture, interestingly, is one ancient culture that has remained intact, unlike the culture of the Ancient Greeks or Ancient Egyptians. One reason that I find it so captivating because it provides me an unadulterated view of how the ancients (of that time and place) thought. By the way, that is not to say I'm promoting caste systems, or that that it is somehow a perfect social system. The number of Sanskrit texts available is staggering, and those scholars prepared to preserve them for posterity are steadfast in their duty to pass it down, as had been done before them. There are interesting activity triangles in the way Karma is understood that I feel is comparable to Vygotsky's theories of development of higher psychological functions. Karma is the Sanskrit word for "action" which most people might already know. The system of karma has a qualitative function that in a simplistic way entails the old saw, "what goes around comes around," but with more nuance lays out how an individual can choose to act in order to gain a particular outcome, that has a gross and subtle result as consequence, which could also be translated as "seen" and "unseen" consequences. I suppose the Buddha, who came along later, elected to focus on mind and its different qualities, however for the most part Buddhist vocabulary or its conceptual library is a borrowing (or anti-borrowing) from Vedic culture. It is difficult to not think of an elephant when one has brought it up in the first place. I find another commonality with Vygotskian-generated theories (aka CHAT) vis ? vis the Vedic and Buddhist worldviews is that each has a stance of liberation as the final achievement. Who doesn't want to be free? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 2:34 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Druid culture? Presume you mean mid-late 1st century AD Iron Age Britain. We know a lot about the houses they lived in, the kind of weapons, pottery and cloth and art an such like, they made, their agricultural practices and diet. As for Druids, well...only such self-serving stories the Romans chose to relate. Next to nothing about their language though; lot of speculation of course. Regards David ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 15 May 2020 19:27 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Hola Henry, No worries. As far as "Shaktism", be wary of Angli-sliced words, and what they do to the underlying meanings. Shakti is Sanskrit to mean "power" and just like in English the word can be used in many contexts, as is the same with shakti. For example in Vedic culture, speech is considered to have shakti. And from what little we know of Driud culture, Druids were considered masters of language and could halt wars with a speech. Merlin is a prototype, who is sometimes reduced to a magician-wizard, but certainly casting spells is another way of describing power to speech in the west, but that is perhaps a method that disempowers because to cast a spell is considered superstitious and not a valid somehow. And yet there is a peculiar phenomenon I see in our stable genius how he will repeat over and over the same fallacy and it has an impact I would not say is far removed from casting a spell. It is a kind of shakti that he wields to detrimental effect. Shakti can also be translated into we call in the west a "gift," such as a prodigy five-year-old pianist. But shakti is that. I feel that shakti is tied more to the person where "gift" divides seems to divide the power from the person, as if the person (exercising the gift) had no cause in its generation. This of course leads to the entire disembodied genius mythology, right? which only separates even more, rather than to unify. As I see it, there is in our western cultural-historical progression a habit to remove the subtle from the gross, where in Vedic culture they inhabit the same loci without conflict, in fact that are considered of the same substrate: a form that matter might take is on a continuum of degree (subtle to gross). Consider how H2O can travel from gas to liquid to solid. Perhaps this need to divide the subtle from the gross in the west is a Cartesian residue. I believe that to be the case. At the same time in Vedic culture, shakti is considered the feminine, perhaps because it is subtle. Not sure what it means to ascribe gender to the subtle vs gross, but at the least there is poetry in it. Really my contribution to highlight the role model of Durga is also to suggest how little we do see of the female as warrior or even less as the protective mother. Once in a while we might reference a Grizzly bear and her cubs, but it's quite peripheral when it comes to the roles of women in American culture. I truly admire the Prime Minister of New Zealand. She is certainly bursting of Durga shakti! ? If only we could manage to cultivate that here on our own terra firma. But strawberries will have to do for the time being! Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 12:26 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Good Day Annalisa, So sorry. Not the first time I have stumbled here. This one is hilarious and, of course, avoidable. I hope to do better with my next turn. Your link to the Times article is very interesting, related to David K?s list of men and women leaders in the face of COVID-19. I did look up Durga and Shaktism in Hinduism. Very interesting reflections on forms of power. Nourishing for the future has been planting strawberry plants in straw bales in our back yard. Stay well, Henry On May 15, 2020, at 12:01 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello Henry, It was me that sent the link regarding Kerala. And you did spell my name correctly. There is also an Annalie on the list (not moi). I found also this link in the NYT about a similar topic: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/15/world/coronavirus-women-leaders.html__;!!Mih3wA!WVohClrmIDTLZye0sfEcMgizhontwzrwCx4miWDZXpkDyrBbSfYtAGnATTiQvVdKocfnig$ I will contemplate brown M&M's as well (read on into the next article below the above one). One Indian goddess whom I've always admired is Durga, the protective-mother incarnation of Kali the consort of Shiva. I feel as a world we could use the influence of Durga as a model to be our better selves, caring and protective is a preventative measure not a reactive one. To nourish is to become strong. What have you done to be nourishing today? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of HENRY SHONERD > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 10:39 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Hi AnnaLIE, I apologize for getting your name wrong. There is someone who engages with the chat by the name of Annalie, and I thought it was she who had sent the link to the Guardian artilcle on Shailaja. Usually Annalisa writes very long posts, so I was pleasantly surprised by the brevity of the post. Ha! Henry On May 14, 2020, at 11:54 PM, Annalie Pistorius > wrote: Yes, it shows the strength of a community-based approach that is a hands-on everyone learns everything approach practical critical method. Yeah to Shailaja?s plan to upscale teacher training to health care of patients. Annalie From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Friday, 15 May 2020 1:02 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Wonderful article, Annalisa! Definitely welcome good news about good leadership inthe face of COVID-19: K.K. Shailaja, health minister of the state of Kerala in India. A woman and a member of the Communist Party there. Already a celebrity because of the way she handled an even deadlier virus in 2018. From the article in the Guardian, ?In a way she had been preparing for a similar outbreak all her life.? From what we have been reading for years from epidemiologists, COVID-19 is a dress rehearsal for even deadlier viruses. Kerala has the highest literacy rate, the highest life expectancy and the lowest infant mortality in India. Meanwhile, the Trump team is sending out surveys that allow people to get high scores on their hatred of socialism. Tooting my New Mexico horn, we have a woman governor that has shown great leadership in maintaining social distancing. However, our literacy is among the lowest in the country and push back from deniers and conspiracy theorists has been ugly. Infection rates have been disproportionately high among Native Americans, particularly Navajos and some Pueblos, though death rates of those infected are highest among whites. Henry On May 14, 2020, at 3:26 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello fellow XMCArs, I thought this might be some good news, given all the bad news: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/14/the-coronavirus-slayer-how-keralas-rock-star-health-minister-helped-save-it-from-covid-19__;!!Mih3wA!WVohClrmIDTLZye0sfEcMgizhontwzrwCx4miWDZXpkDyrBbSfYtAGnATTiQvVfy3FQlBQ$ Cheers, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200517/6e6e5a87/attachment.html From d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk Sun May 17 11:56:00 2020 From: d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk (WEBSTER, DAVID S.) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 18:56:00 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala In-Reply-To: References: <7CF68C44-2A31-4E98-8DE7-11FC0B8AE8E3@gmail.com> <002801d62a7d$417b5a50$c4720ef0$@smu.ac.za> <23CB0D56-30A3-497F-AF5F-4E4F65721AD7@gmail.com> , <0BF7D8AD-6F6F-4DCB-87D4-BA2EE8A9E05F@gmail.com>, , , , , , , Message-ID: Hi Annalisa. I seems then to come down to a belief in - a matter of faith where Druids are concerned; which I think makes me agnostic? Or perhaps, better, that nothing follows from their existence or otherwise, it is all just a matter of belief. You are quite welcome to the Wittgenstein quotes, I though you would appreciate them, -so here is another 'if Frazer's explanations did not in the final analysis appeal to a tendency in ourselves, then they would not really be explanations' Salut David. ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 17 May 2020 17:35 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Hi David, It's not about a wish. Do you wish that Ancient Egyptians existed? You are the one who seems to object to the idea of Druids existing or not. You picked them out of all the other ancient cultures that I mentioned. So the problem seems to be in you, not me. It was your objection. And your quotes of W, seem to also support what I've said. So thanks for that. Though I would add that to know an oak tree is to love an oak tree, as a community of life was surely non-trivial in those times. I hope that to be true even today. ? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 3:19 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Perhaps the problem I am having is I can't see why you wish to have Druids exist. Or rather what function or significance their existence has for you. I'm missing something here, though I am certainly not saying Druids or something like them could not exist. After all, we have today out own mystics, and poets and purveyors of incantations, and sacrifice-based religions - and the Druids were implicated on this count as well. Apropos Wittgenstein on Frazer 'It was not a trivial reason, for in reality there can be no reason, that prompted certain races of mankind to venerate the oak tree, but only the fact that they and the oak were united in a community of life, and that they arose together not by chance but rather like the flea and the dog (If fleas developed a right, it would be based on the dog).' And ' but what I see in those stories is nevertheless acquired by the evidence, including such evidence as does not appear to be directly connected with them, - through the thoughts of man and his past, through all the strange things I see, and have seen and heard about, in myself and others.' Regards David ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 16 May 2020 19:43 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Hi David, and venerable others, Forgive me for my meager straws. All you are saying is that because something is not verifiable (with authority) it can't exist. Is that not so? That makes no sense to me. We know that the Druids existed, and we know from observations of another culture (the Romans) that they were important to their people, they were considered the holders of wisdom, and that they were masters of language (poetry and storytelling). I'm not sure what it means to say any of this is impossible to assert just because we cannot decode this from archeological findings. Nothing can ever be precise even with the most data because then one could argue about interpretation of that data. It is the simplest thing to poke a stick in the spokes and doesn't require any interpretation. True, Merlin and Arthur are legends (i.e. Le Mort d'Arthur) but these stories did not erupt spontaneously like a science fiction story in the 1960s. (Although one could argue that Star Trek is a fanciful futuristic rendering of human culture when the model of the United Nation was an aspiration, coming out of the two world wars.) Stories, legends, mythologies, and so on come from somewhere. They live on because they resonate within. The knowing or assertion of a precise genesis in some ways become moot, because such stories are beginningless. Then it becomes a matter of function. How do the stories work. By coincidence (or synchronicity) I've just began reading the recent release of Hau's book "Wittgenstein's Remarks on Frazier's Golden Bough." I wonder whether the topic of that book has a topical thread to offer here. I not yet read Philosophical Investigations to fully understand Wittgenstein's concept of language games, but W's Remarks certainly seem to fascinate anthropologists, since they are tasked to make sense of human culture, which includes ritual. I can't speak with any authority (actually I never try to speak with authority), as I've just cracked it, but one of the first discussions pertains to swapping one symbol for another symbol (symbolism) as opposed to explanation. I wonder if this might be the crux of our own debate, in terms of style. Meaning can be conveyed both ways. Perhaps it has to do with intuition vs rational, and which of these paths one wishes to travel, either by preference or habit. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 2:06 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Morning Annalisa, Sorry, but I think you are clutching at a very few straws in the wind when it comes to Druids, and even more so with Arthur and Merlin, whose canonical form originates with high medieval romance fiction, e.g. Geoffrey of Monmouth's (1095-1155) History of the Kings of Britton (1136) and which starts, no less, from the arrival of refugees from the sack of Troy. The problem with folk stories is they are just that, folk stories, and which folks are at issue. Britton (The Isles of the Mighty!), and from well before the Romans was often settled from elsewhere in continental Europe (as witness by step-change in material culture). As for the autochthonic Brits circa the last, ice age (12-13000 yrs ago) and who, for obvious reasons, were also incomers, well, who knows. Regards David ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 15 May 2020 21:56 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Hi David, Alas that Capital H-history were only based upon the conquest of the victors. Fortunately folk stories are carried down in a verbal tradition. (Another power of speech!) We do know something of the Druids, though I agree with you, not as much as we might like. The same can be said about the Cathars. Few know of them either, even today. Many cultures of the past have been decimated and from that we have inherited a distorted lens by which to examine them. Poor us! We know of the Ancient Greeks, the Ancient Egyptians too, because of someone writing it all down and the parchment and stone lasting through the ages, in some cases not that well, for us to piece together bit by bit, translate and reflect. Only to argue theories of what once was. The Vedic culture, interestingly, is one ancient culture that has remained intact, unlike the culture of the Ancient Greeks or Ancient Egyptians. One reason that I find it so captivating because it provides me an unadulterated view of how the ancients (of that time and place) thought. By the way, that is not to say I'm promoting caste systems, or that that it is somehow a perfect social system. The number of Sanskrit texts available is staggering, and those scholars prepared to preserve them for posterity are steadfast in their duty to pass it down, as had been done before them. There are interesting activity triangles in the way Karma is understood that I feel is comparable to Vygotsky's theories of development of higher psychological functions. Karma is the Sanskrit word for "action" which most people might already know. The system of karma has a qualitative function that in a simplistic way entails the old saw, "what goes around comes around," but with more nuance lays out how an individual can choose to act in order to gain a particular outcome, that has a gross and subtle result as consequence, which could also be translated as "seen" and "unseen" consequences. I suppose the Buddha, who came along later, elected to focus on mind and its different qualities, however for the most part Buddhist vocabulary or its conceptual library is a borrowing (or anti-borrowing) from Vedic culture. It is difficult to not think of an elephant when one has brought it up in the first place. I find another commonality with Vygotskian-generated theories (aka CHAT) vis ? vis the Vedic and Buddhist worldviews is that each has a stance of liberation as the final achievement. Who doesn't want to be free? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 2:34 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Druid culture? Presume you mean mid-late 1st century AD Iron Age Britain. We know a lot about the houses they lived in, the kind of weapons, pottery and cloth and art an such like, they made, their agricultural practices and diet. As for Druids, well...only such self-serving stories the Romans chose to relate. Next to nothing about their language though; lot of speculation of course. Regards David ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 15 May 2020 19:27 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Hola Henry, No worries. As far as "Shaktism", be wary of Angli-sliced words, and what they do to the underlying meanings. Shakti is Sanskrit to mean "power" and just like in English the word can be used in many contexts, as is the same with shakti. For example in Vedic culture, speech is considered to have shakti. And from what little we know of Driud culture, Druids were considered masters of language and could halt wars with a speech. Merlin is a prototype, who is sometimes reduced to a magician-wizard, but certainly casting spells is another way of describing power to speech in the west, but that is perhaps a method that disempowers because to cast a spell is considered superstitious and not a valid somehow. And yet there is a peculiar phenomenon I see in our stable genius how he will repeat over and over the same fallacy and it has an impact I would not say is far removed from casting a spell. It is a kind of shakti that he wields to detrimental effect. Shakti can also be translated into we call in the west a "gift," such as a prodigy five-year-old pianist. But shakti is that. I feel that shakti is tied more to the person where "gift" divides seems to divide the power from the person, as if the person (exercising the gift) had no cause in its generation. This of course leads to the entire disembodied genius mythology, right? which only separates even more, rather than to unify. As I see it, there is in our western cultural-historical progression a habit to remove the subtle from the gross, where in Vedic culture they inhabit the same loci without conflict, in fact that are considered of the same substrate: a form that matter might take is on a continuum of degree (subtle to gross). Consider how H2O can travel from gas to liquid to solid. Perhaps this need to divide the subtle from the gross in the west is a Cartesian residue. I believe that to be the case. At the same time in Vedic culture, shakti is considered the feminine, perhaps because it is subtle. Not sure what it means to ascribe gender to the subtle vs gross, but at the least there is poetry in it. Really my contribution to highlight the role model of Durga is also to suggest how little we do see of the female as warrior or even less as the protective mother. Once in a while we might reference a Grizzly bear and her cubs, but it's quite peripheral when it comes to the roles of women in American culture. I truly admire the Prime Minister of New Zealand. She is certainly bursting of Durga shakti! ? If only we could manage to cultivate that here on our own terra firma. But strawberries will have to do for the time being! Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 12:26 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Good Day Annalisa, So sorry. Not the first time I have stumbled here. This one is hilarious and, of course, avoidable. I hope to do better with my next turn. Your link to the Times article is very interesting, related to David K?s list of men and women leaders in the face of COVID-19. I did look up Durga and Shaktism in Hinduism. Very interesting reflections on forms of power. Nourishing for the future has been planting strawberry plants in straw bales in our back yard. Stay well, Henry On May 15, 2020, at 12:01 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello Henry, It was me that sent the link regarding Kerala. And you did spell my name correctly. There is also an Annalie on the list (not moi). I found also this link in the NYT about a similar topic: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/15/world/coronavirus-women-leaders.html__;!!Mih3wA!R9Gsjc9k9VeNsNM9OQ68bf58ZXyDLGKNgIbdLYRMlpV9GIHqBVFLq_6Yf4GHNf1FPDg_6g$ I will contemplate brown M&M's as well (read on into the next article below the above one). One Indian goddess whom I've always admired is Durga, the protective-mother incarnation of Kali the consort of Shiva. I feel as a world we could use the influence of Durga as a model to be our better selves, caring and protective is a preventative measure not a reactive one. To nourish is to become strong. What have you done to be nourishing today? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of HENRY SHONERD > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 10:39 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala [EXTERNAL] Hi AnnaLIE, I apologize for getting your name wrong. There is someone who engages with the chat by the name of Annalie, and I thought it was she who had sent the link to the Guardian artilcle on Shailaja. Usually Annalisa writes very long posts, so I was pleasantly surprised by the brevity of the post. Ha! Henry On May 14, 2020, at 11:54 PM, Annalie Pistorius > wrote: Yes, it shows the strength of a community-based approach that is a hands-on everyone learns everything approach practical critical method. Yeah to Shailaja?s plan to upscale teacher training to health care of patients. Annalie From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Friday, 15 May 2020 1:02 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heartening news in Kerala Wonderful article, Annalisa! Definitely welcome good news about good leadership inthe face of COVID-19: K.K. Shailaja, health minister of the state of Kerala in India. A woman and a member of the Communist Party there. Already a celebrity because of the way she handled an even deadlier virus in 2018. From the article in the Guardian, ?In a way she had been preparing for a similar outbreak all her life.? From what we have been reading for years from epidemiologists, COVID-19 is a dress rehearsal for even deadlier viruses. Kerala has the highest literacy rate, the highest life expectancy and the lowest infant mortality in India. Meanwhile, the Trump team is sending out surveys that allow people to get high scores on their hatred of socialism. Tooting my New Mexico horn, we have a woman governor that has shown great leadership in maintaining social distancing. However, our literacy is among the lowest in the country and push back from deniers and conspiracy theorists has been ugly. Infection rates have been disproportionately high among Native Americans, particularly Navajos and some Pueblos, though death rates of those infected are highest among whites. Henry On May 14, 2020, at 3:26 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello fellow XMCArs, I thought this might be some good news, given all the bad news: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/14/the-coronavirus-slayer-how-keralas-rock-star-health-minister-helped-save-it-from-covid-19__;!!Mih3wA!R9Gsjc9k9VeNsNM9OQ68bf58ZXyDLGKNgIbdLYRMlpV9GIHqBVFLq_6Yf4GHNf03QPk0KA$ Cheers, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200517/e639898b/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sun May 17 13:35:28 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 20:35:28 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Wittgenstein's Remarks on Frazier Message-ID: Hi David W and also venerable others (and also to Andy farther down below), [Note: I decided to create a new thread from what was the thread: Heartening news in Kerala] I'm not sure that you understand what Wittgenstein intended in his remarks. He took exception to Frazier's "explanations." I think you misunderstand his project. Wittgenstein at the end of his life reacquainted himself with a spiritual life, i.e., he valued ritual. I think his objection to Frazier is illustrated (not explained) here: "Already the idea of explaining the practice?say the killing of the priest king?seems to me wrong-headed. All that Frazer does is to make the practice plausible to those who think like him. It is very strange to present all these practices, in the end, so to speak, as foolishness. "But it never does become plausible that people do all this out of sheer stupidity. "When he explains to us, for example, that the king would have to be killed in his prime because, according to the notions of the savages, his soul would otherwise not be kept fresh, then one can only say: where that practice and these notions go together, there the practice does not spring from the notion; instead they are simply both present. "It could well be, and often occurs today, that someone gives up a practice after having realized an error that this practice depended on. But then again, this case holds only when it is enough to make someone aware of his error so as to dissuade him from his mode of action. But surely, this is not the case with the religious practices of a people, and that is why we are not dealing with an error here." (pg 142, Mythology in our Language: Wittgenstein's Remarks on Frazier's Golden Bough) ==== You had written: Apropos Wittgenstein on Frazer 'It was not a trivial reason, for in reality there can be no reason, that prompted certain races of mankind to venerate the oak tree, but only the fact that they and the oak were united in a community of life, and that they arose together not by chance but rather like the flea and the dog (If fleas developed a right, it would be based on the dog).' And ' but what I see in those stories is nevertheless acquired by the evidence, including such evidence as does not appear to be directly connected with them, - through the thoughts of man and his past, through all the strange things I see, and have seen and heard about, in myself and others.' In your supplied quote, isn't W saying that we can't say that there is a connection where it may just be happenstance of life. That (Frazier's) need for explanation is ill-placed. Some things can just be. W uses example of the ellipse and the circle. Just because we can see their commonality in form, does not mean that the ellipse "developed" from the circle, or vice versa. All we can say is that they share attributes. There is no need for any explanation, and if there is, it says more about us than about the reality about which we hope to explain. I find it hard to believe that the Druids are just a flight of fancy, a wish, like Santa Claus, which still was based upon a real historical person. Just because I mention Santa Claus, doesn't mean I BELIEVE in Santa Claus, but I do believe there was a person from which these folk stories generated. Is that the belief that you speak about? Do I need hard facts to be allowed to discuss Santa Claus on this list? If the Druids are simply made up, then why did the Romans erect laws forbidding their practices? (Which apparently involved human sacrifice) Why are they mentioned in long traditions in folk stories in various different cultures? I'm just not sure why it has invoked such an "anti-druid" response in you. The Cathars did not seem to do that for you, another group of people who were little understood and what little we know was also set down by their persecutors. Must I also say that they did not exist as well? ----- I also saw this note and thought it might pertain to the earlier discussion on the word "sociocultural": "That a human shadow, which looks like a human being, or one?s mirror image, that rain, thunderstorms, the phases of the moon, the change of seasons, the likeness or difference of animals to one another and to human beings, the phenomenon of death, of birth, and of sexual life, in short, everything that a human being senses around himself, year in, year out, in manifold mutual connection? *that all this should play a role in the thought of human beings (their philosophy) and in their practices is self-evident;* or, in other words, it is what we really know and find interesting. (my emphasis) "How could the fire or the fire?s resemblance to the sun have failed to make an impression on the awakening mind of man? But not perhaps 'because he can?t explain it to himself' (the stupid superstition of our time)?for does an 'explanation' make it less impressive??" (pg 40, Mythology in our Language: Wittgenstein's Remarks on Frazier's Golden Bough) And thus I come to the question for Andy: do the items, that W lists in the first paragraph of the quote above, pertain to a culture, a society, a language, or history, or tool? Do these items have no ability to form or influence thought in the development of an individual? If they do, how do they relate to Vygotskian/CHAT theories? If they do not, why not? Kind regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200517/fe4b9489/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Sun May 17 17:34:30 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 19:34:30 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> Message-ID: <5B7BE311-79A6-42A2-AC73-098851C1C2DC@cantab.net> That sounds pretty dire, Greg. On the positive side, the US national data show new cases have increased less than 2% each day for the past week. In Utah the figures have hovered around 2% daily during that time. In Colombia the official data show increases of 5% daily, and we have every reason to think they are strongly underreported. I still can?t predict what?s going to happen! ;) Martin > On May 15, 2020, at 8:34 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > David, > > South Korea's "spike" in Covid-19 cases is America's early afternoon yawn. We are currently celebrating how we have "flattened the curve" since we are "down" around 25,000 new cases PER DAY, and the powers-that-be have decided that it is time to open everything back up (folks in my neighborhood are entirely back to normal life, no social distancing, no masks (Hitler), no precautions). SK hasn't even had that many cases since the beginning of the outbreak! > > By the numbers: > SK:11K individuals infected and 260 dead > U.S.: 1.4 million cases and about 88k dead > (US population is about 6x that of SK). > > Rugged individualism indeed. > -greg > > On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 5:46 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > I don't think I would call Sorokin a "democratic socialist", Mike. He was a member of the Social Revolutionists--the "Narodniki" who tried to assassinate Lenin. But then he became a moral conservative, rather in the style of Solzhenitsyn, and apparently Mike Pence is really big on his writings; he claimed that Sorokin demonstrated that the collapse of civilizations follow directly on the collapse of "one man one woman" families. > > Au fait, we are having a bit of a spike in Covid 19 cases here in Seoul at present. For once it is not linked to churches but rather to clubhopping in Itaewon (where you can apparently buy a ticket to one club and get free drinks and free entry in another five). Clubbing, like choir practice, is very conducive to shouting in each other's faces. (So are families, though--some "cognitive deficits" are not even differences.) > > (Even I have mellowed as a result of the pandemic. I had to record a lecture yesterday and when I played it back I noticed that for the first time in my life I don't sound like I am addressing a charging battalion of riot police. But maybe that is just professorship and not prophylaxis....) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!WNTuvmn3MafWoW3OO6R-O-hvnJmYQH_zBIEcNIafrttFYeaFoPprtkz7FN1uy9CBhCCiBQ$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WNTuvmn3MafWoW3OO6R-O-hvnJmYQH_zBIEcNIafrttFYeaFoPprtkz7FN1uy9CcsngSgQ$ > > > On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 3:38 AM mike cole > wrote: > I read your Sorokiin note out of order, David. > > So sociocultural has democratic socialist origins that map the discontent that emerged in Madrid. > mike > > On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 9:20 AM WEBSTER, DAVID S. > wrote: > Sorokin was also Prime Minister Kerensky's (Feb revolution) private secretary. After the October revolution he got involved in a bit of hapless counter-revolutionary activity and was condemned to the firing squad. Through the intervention of Lenin, Sorokin was offered a deal, as a prominent liberal figure. If he renounced, in an open published letter, his opposition to the Bolsheviks and made no further attacks, then he could take up his position as a sociologist at Moscow University. Lenin's logic was that Sorokin gave up his opposition, this would make it easier for other of the liberal/professionals to do likewise. Needless to say Sorokin kept up his criticism of the Bolsheviks but no action was taken against him. However when Lenin suffered a stroke and was in a coma, Sorokin, wisely, took himself and family off to America. > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Greg Thompson > > Sent: 15 May 2020 15:48 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > Mike, > Just wondering if you ever heard of Pitirim Alexandrovich Sorokin's (Sociology, Harvard) use of "sociocultural" pre-WWII? > Any recollections? > -greg > (and in case anyone is interested in this Russian-born interdisciplinary sociologist who became the first head of the Sociology Department at Harvard (and used the term "sociocultural" in 1937): https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.suz.uzh.ch/dam/jcr:00000000-36d7-41d4-0000-000064b51e55/simpson_sorokin.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!WNTuvmn3MafWoW3OO6R-O-hvnJmYQH_zBIEcNIafrttFYeaFoPprtkz7FN1uy9CjvY_Z0g$ ) > > On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:20 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: > Mike tells me that my account is indeed "pretty muddled," so please do not quote anything from that email, and do not ascribe any of it to Mike. The chapter Mike sent around, and Jim Wertsch's book, are the places to go for reliable information. > Sorry. > > Andy > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 15/05/2020 11:24 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >> In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. >> >> Jim Wertsch said: >> Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? or ?cultural-historical.? >> >> Mike Cole told me: >> >> In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. >> >> Andy >> Andy Blunden >> Hegel for Social Movements >> Home Page >> On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> I should have reported progress with my question. >>> >>> Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin referred to on his academia.edu page for us all to read. >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!WNTuvmn3MafWoW3OO6R-O-hvnJmYQH_zBIEcNIafrttFYeaFoPprtkz7FN1uy9B4OTuBMQ$ >>> As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. >>> >>> Andy >>> Andy Blunden >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> Home Page >>> On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: >>>> Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the components more than others and he was acting nominally as a psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these components. >>>> >>>> I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. >>>> >>>> While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. >>>> >>>> BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. >>>> >>>> Chuck >>>> ---- >>>> ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? >>>> ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? >>>> Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. >>>> The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. >>>> History will judge. >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!WNTuvmn3MafWoW3OO6R-O-hvnJmYQH_zBIEcNIafrttFYeaFoPprtkz7FN1uy9BAclL11g$ >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!WNTuvmn3MafWoW3OO6R-O-hvnJmYQH_zBIEcNIafrttFYeaFoPprtkz7FN1uy9A4-vBQuA$ >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!WNTuvmn3MafWoW3OO6R-O-hvnJmYQH_zBIEcNIafrttFYeaFoPprtkz7FN1uy9DC-YPnIg$ >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: >>>> Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. >>>> >>>> While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!WNTuvmn3MafWoW3OO6R-O-hvnJmYQH_zBIEcNIafrttFYeaFoPprtkz7FN1uy9BCtDMu9Q$ "Pros and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" >>>> >>>> As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so sure the cons outweigh the pros here. >>>> >>>> But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? >>>> I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm more outsider than insider and don't really know. >>>> >>>> Thank you for any insight. >>>> >>>> Anthony >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer > wrote: >>>> I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. >>>> >>>> Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their view it?s the best term: >>>> >>>> Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). Sociocultural studies of mind. Cambridge University Press. >>>> >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action " published by Harvard University Press in 1991. >>>>> Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and artefacts mediating action. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks again to all >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> Home Page >>>>> On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>>> Andy-- >>>>>> >>>>>> Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!WNTuvmn3MafWoW3OO6R-O-hvnJmYQH_zBIEcNIafrttFYeaFoPprtkz7FN1uy9A4a8ndqA$ >>>>>> Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the years you'll get better granularity in the document search. >>>>>> On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. >>>>>> >>>>>> dk >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>>> >>>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!WNTuvmn3MafWoW3OO6R-O-hvnJmYQH_zBIEcNIafrttFYeaFoPprtkz7FN1uy9CBhCCiBQ$ >>>>>> >>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WNTuvmn3MafWoW3OO6R-O-hvnJmYQH_zBIEcNIafrttFYeaFoPprtkz7FN1uy9CcsngSgQ$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer > wrote: >>>>>> The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in English is this: >>>>>> >>>>>> A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero >>>>>> >>>>>> In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press >>>>>> >>>>>> Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use the term ?sociocultural? frequently. >>>>>> >>>>>> The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study of the Mexican. >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>>> Home Page >>>>>>> On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>>>>> Andy: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but here's what I got. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!WNTuvmn3MafWoW3OO6R-O-hvnJmYQH_zBIEcNIafrttFYeaFoPprtkz7FN1uy9ChEjSmGA$ " width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 frameborder=0 scrolling=no >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after 1992 is Vygotsky though. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>>>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!WNTuvmn3MafWoW3OO6R-O-hvnJmYQH_zBIEcNIafrttFYeaFoPprtkz7FN1uy9CBhCCiBQ$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WNTuvmn3MafWoW3OO6R-O-hvnJmYQH_zBIEcNIafrttFYeaFoPprtkz7FN1uy9CcsngSgQ$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: >>>>>>>> Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" originated? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>>>> Home Page >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!WNTuvmn3MafWoW3OO6R-O-hvnJmYQH_zBIEcNIafrttFYeaFoPprtkz7FN1uy9CMbsF2Sw$ > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!WNTuvmn3MafWoW3OO6R-O-hvnJmYQH_zBIEcNIafrttFYeaFoPprtkz7FN1uy9DCaEL29g$ > > -- > ?It is education which should play the central role in the transformation of man - this road of conscious social formation of new generations, the basic form to alter the historical human type. New generations and new forms of their education represent the main route which history will follow whilst creating the new type of man. Vygotsky (1932?; 1994, p.81). > > > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit > lchc.ucsd.edu . For archival materials and a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!WNTuvmn3MafWoW3OO6R-O-hvnJmYQH_zBIEcNIafrttFYeaFoPprtkz7FN1uy9CMbsF2Sw$ > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!WNTuvmn3MafWoW3OO6R-O-hvnJmYQH_zBIEcNIafrttFYeaFoPprtkz7FN1uy9DCaEL29g$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200517/d777991a/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Sun May 17 18:23:36 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 11:23:36 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> Message-ID: <36147263-58ba-6908-ce60-bc367719772e@marxists.org> Annalisa, "where does history start"? Effectively there is no starting point, and the choosing of a starting point is always an ideological move. Foucault does this to great effect. Ilyenkov deals with this in his book "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's Capital" and explains the need for what he calls the "logical-historical method." To short circuit the complexities of reading Ilyenkov, in CHAT we rely on the identification of the unit of analysis or "germ cell" to anchor our historical investigation. "Sociogenesis" is just Latin for "social development," the word I used. But if you are going to ascribe a moral value to "evolution" and then reject the concept on that basis, you'd better also reject "development" and all the "geneses" and evolution of species by natural selection and all modern biology while you are at it. Alternatively, you could choose *not* to ascribe moral values to scientific concepts, then the whole of science is open to you. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 18/05/2020 3:25 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Andy (& VO's), > > I think that that was my point, that we cannot capture > everything in the word to describe the theory. And that is > because of the limit of our language. > > Even where genesis actually is, where something starts can > be difficult to pinpoint. I mean where does History > actually start? > > These words that you mention phylogenesis, ethnogenesis, > ontogenesis, are words that are like brackets of a pair of > parentheses. Who decides where to put them? (And why not > sociogenesis?) > > I'm not sure it's correct to say the choice of a word > locates the user on a branch of a cultural evolutionary > tree, because then that starts to mean that one speaker is > more evolved than another based on the use of a word. > > It might be better to say that the choice of a word > locates the user to a particular context. I could live > with that. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy > Blunden > *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:27 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > *? [EXTERNAL]* > > ** > > You're never going to succeed in formally capturing the > full scope of the theory in a word, Annalisa. > "socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory" > still leave out biology and Darwin, which is a part of our > theory, too. > > > It is sometimes said that human development is the > coincidence of *four* processes: *phylogenesis *(i.e., > evolution of the species), cultural development > (*ethnogenesis*, the development of technology *and > *language), *social development* (one and the same culture > has different classes and political groups side by side) > and *ontogenesis *(even twins can grow up very differently > according to the experiences (/perezhivaniya/) they go > through). I tried to describe this in: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/ontogenesis.htm__;!!Mih3wA!VTGuGy4gvXj-8N5E9YCj2IevXlVoBhK7UBQ37lx10IRWhO4lMbcXmdD-gzoCEFYFiYMftA$ > > > > But if you look into the history of a word what you will > inevitably find is that at some point (in time and social > space) there was some dispute, and this dispute was either > (1) resolved by both parties agreeing and marking this > agreement by the coining of a new word meaning or the > dropping of a word meaning altogether, or (2) there is a > split and one or both sides of the split adopt a word > meaning which distinguishes them from the other side > (structuralism's favourite trope) or variations on the > above scenarios. > > > So the choice of a word tends to locate the user on a > branch in the cultural evolutionary tree. > > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 17/05/2020 11:56 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> David K & VO's >> >> What pray-tell is an anthropologue? >> >> I am divided (pun intended) about saying that >> sociocultural = social + culture, when they are >> intertwined holistically. To me, sociocultural points to >> a space in between, or perhaps better said to a context >> of interactions between individuals (who form a society) >> that are easily accepted among them and practiced over time. >> >> We can conceptually parse out the social and the >> cultural, but don't we do that because of the words and >> not because of the ostensible reality going on >> interactionally? Can we always understand something by >> dissecting it into parts? >> >> Again, this seems to be the limit of language, not of the >> conceptual context or content. >> >> In a sense to use the term "sociocultural" is to grab the >> tail of the tiger. The tail of the tiger is still the >> tiger, but perhaps a more manageable one than to grab its >> head. >> >> Perhaps this is why Vygotskians just call themselves >> Vygotskians to align themselves with the source of the >> first theories rather than to later conceptions and other >> developments (i.e. Leontiev, etc). Just thinking out loud. >> >> Another argument is that if we want to be all inclusive, >> then we have to include tool-use, as it's not the social, >> the culture, and the history, but also the language and >> tools used. I realize some practitioners would say that >> language is no different than a tool, but I feel language >> is different, even though it may have a similar cognitive >> response in the mind as would using a tool. >> >> Activity suggests tool use, though not always. Consider >> dance, or storytelling, or going for a walk. >> >> How about: socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity >> theory??? >> >> Yes! I am writing this a little tongue in cheek. I hope >> you do not mind. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalsia >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> >> on behalf of >> David Kellogg >> >> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:14 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >> >> *? [EXTERNAL]* >> >> It's a very domain-specific umbrella, like those >> cane-brollies that go with a bowler. "Sociocultural" is >> strongly preferred used in second language acquisition, >> thanks to the influence of Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf and >> Matthew Poehner; I have never seen "cultural historical" >> used in this literature. But "cultural-historical" is >> similarly preferred in psychology and anthropology, >> thanks to the influence of J.V. Wertsch, Mike >> Cole,?Martin Packer and Andy Blunden;?that's really why >> we are having this discussion on what "socio-cultural" >> might mean on a list largely populated by >> roving?psychologists and nomadic anthropologues. >> >> Interestingly, the Francophones prefer >> "historico-cultural", using the argument that you can >> understand the process without the product but not the >> product without the process. I stopped using >> "sociocultural" because I thought it was redundant, but >> now I am really not sure of this: it seems to me that the >> relationship is a similar one--you can study society as >> process without studying its cultural product (e.g. as >> demographics, economics, statistics) but you can't really >> study culture without some understanding of the process >> of its formation. >> >> There was a similar disagreement in systemic functional >> linguistics between Halliday and Jim Martin over the term >> "socio-semiotic". Martin said that it was redundant, >> because there couldn't be any semiotic without >> society.?Halliday rather flippantly replied that ants had >> a society without a semiotics, and at the time it seemed >> to me that?this was a?non sequitur,?first of all because >> ants don't really have a society in our?sense (precisely >> because there is no such thing as an ant history separate >> from phylogenesis on the one hand and ontogenesis on the >> other) and secondly because ants most definitely do have >> a semiotics, albeit one based on chemistry and not >> perception as ours is. >> >> It seems to me, in retrospect, that the relationship >> between the semiotic and the social is much more like the >> relationship between the social and the biological, or >> even the biological and the chemical. The semiotic is a >> certain level of organization that the social has, but >> there are other?levels, just as biology is a certain kind >> of chemical organization which does not exclude other, >> nonbiological ways organizing chemicals, and?chemistry is >> a kind of physical organization which doesn't exclude >> sub-chemical organizations. >> >> Perhaps we can think of the relationship between culture >> and society in the same way? >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a >> manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VTGuGy4gvXj-8N5E9YCj2IevXlVoBhK7UBQ37lx10IRWhO4lMbcXmdD-gzoCEFZwU83keg$ >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. Vygotsky's >> Pedological Works/ /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VTGuGy4gvXj-8N5E9YCj2IevXlVoBhK7UBQ37lx10IRWhO4lMbcXmdD-gzoCEFbOqC8nxQ$ >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David H Kirshner >> > wrote: >> >> 4. As an umbrella term for any sociogenetic approach. >> >> Isn?t that its current usage? >> >> David >> >> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> > > *On Behalf >> Of *Annalisa Aguilar >> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > > >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >> >> Hi Andy, and VO's, >> >> What fascinates me is that the word "sociocultural" >> has a lot of different facets in terms of how the >> word was used in different contexts. It seems there >> are three I've been able to pick out. >> >> 1. as a derisive term in early Soviet history. >> 2. as an empowering term from Latin American voices. >> 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist "brand" at the >> height of the Cold War in the US. >> >> I'm not sure if I've done justice in the manner that >> I've represented that, but it is a well-intended >> attempt. Are there others? >> >> What I don't understand fully is whether there must >> be ONE explanation how the term came to be, or ONE >> definition of what it actually means. Can't it be >> polysemantic?? polycontextual? >> >> If that is what's happening, then it makes sense that >> there would be an ongoing controversy about which one >> is the right definition or reason for not using it, >> depending on the interlocutor. >> >> If we are to talk about who used the term first, and >> that's where the value/authority holds, then all that >> tells us is that for those who value who used the >> term first. that's where the authority is. >> >> If we talk about the emotional attachment of the word >> as it is used in context and that's where the >> value/authority holds, then that tells us for those >> who value the most personal attachment to the word, >> that's where the authority is. >> >> If we talk about how the word was used functionally, >> where the value/authority holds in its efficacy, then >> all that tells is that for those who value whether >> the word works or not, that's where the authority is. >> >> I'm not sure one can put any of one these over the >> other two (or if there are more than that, if there >> are more). All we can say I suppose is whether in a >> particular context is the word "sociocultural" >> appropriate or not? >> >> I do find that this debate has begun to have its own >> life, this debate over the use of a word. I've begun >> doubt it will ever cease. >> >> One day the discussion will be how one used to debate >> about the term, first everyone was this way about the >> word, than they were that way about the word, and >> many large camps were formed in XXXX year to say why >> the word should not be used, but then X years later >> other large camps formed to say it is fine to use the >> word. I suppose it will only be when the debate >> ceases will it come to pass that the debate will be >> forgotten. But will that cessation solidify the use >> or non-use of the word? >> >> I understand the reasons for saying "cultural >> psychology." But for those swimming in a culture >> where behaviorism is considered the soul of >> psychology, adding "cultural" becomes a sad >> necessity.? Even then, that necessity only depends >> upon how one sees culture, as either as an additive, >> an integral ingredient of psychology, or its basis. I >> believe I've read on the list that one should be able >> to say "psychology" and just *know* that it includes >> culture. I don't think we are there yet. >> >> Then that would be my argument to use "sociocultural" >> to understand it includes history. CHAT is sort of a >> defensive term (well, it is an acronym). But then... >> it leaves out "social" and is that OK? We certainly >> should not say sociocultural historical activity >> theory because that acronym is very unfulfilling. >> What is nice about CHAT though is that to chat is an >> activity of speech, and there is a implied meaning >> that also pertains to Vygotskian theories, and >> therefore meaningful. >> >> In a sense, it's not the meaning that we are arguing >> over, but how the limitations of our particular >> language fails to convey a meaning with such >> precision that it thereby to parses away any other >> inappropriate meaning. I'm just not sure that the >> project is one that can be achieved successfully, >> even if it succeeds for an interim. >> >> At the same time I can see why story of the elephant >> and the blind men also have a part to play in our >> understandings and assumptions. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> > > on behalf >> of Andy Blunden > > >> *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM >> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> > > >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >> >> *[EXTERNAL]* >> >> Annalisa, I have only been talking and writing about >> Vygotsky and co. since about 2000 and have been >> openly Marxist since the 1960s (indeed, Vygotsky is >> core to how I understand Marx) and never had any >> reason not to be. But it is true that when Mike first >> went to Moscow, it was at the height of the Cold War, >> and when he and others first brought Vygotsky's ideas >> to the USA, there was a lot of resistance to their >> Marxist content. I think the naming issue only arose >> as Vygotsky and the others began to build a real >> following. The issues with the choice of name change >> over the years, as you say. I prefer" CHAT," but >> sometimes I use "Cultural Psychology" and sometimes I >> use "Activity Theory" depending on the context. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> >> On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> Andy, et al, >> >> I sort of came to this a little late in the >> thread, but I can offer that Vera John-Steiner >> didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe >> Vygotskian theory, but as I learn more about the >> word (thank you Mike), I can see how once a word >> is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard >> for the association to be broken. >> >> I think it's that way with words all the time >> coming and going out of favor, or meanings >> shifting, like the game of telephone, but across >> generations and cultures. >> >> Might I contribute to the discussion by asking >> whether the use of "sociocultural" was also a >> means of making the theories more available in >> the West (at least in the US). It seems there was >> redscare (you are welcome read the double >> entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as you >> like) prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to >> remove the Marxist "brand" to access the actual >> theories on child development? In other words, to >> depoliticize the science? >> >> I had been a proponent of the use of the word, >> but as time passes, I can see its problems. >> >> For me, I had preferred the word because >> historical was always a given for me. In concern >> of the here and now, the real difficulty I had >> thought was understanding the social- how >> interactions between the child and the >> caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the >> -cultural, how the culture impacts thought, those >> things are more of the micro level, but also >> sociocultural, how the two also can interact and >> influence one another and that combined bears its >> own signature on the mind and its development.? >> As far as History (capital H) that is sort of >> difficult to measure when we are talking about >> child development as there is very little history >> that a child has, unless we are talking about >> genetics, I suppose. >> >> Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I >> respect and am enriched by the discourse in which >> we now we find ourselves immersed about it so >> thanks to all for this. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> >> on >> behalf of Andy Blunden >> >> *Sent:* Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM >> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> >> >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >> >> *? [EXTERNAL]* >> >> In response to requests, I will elaborate. >> Apologies to Mike if I have garbled the long and >> complex story he told. I have done my best. >> >> Jim Wertsch said: >> >> Various people undoubtedly have various >> accounts of this, but I consciously started >> to use this in order to bring in cultural >> anthropology and also to avoid the unexamined >> social evolutionism in some approaches that I >> was building from.? I believe I started >> highlighting it in my 1985 book on Vygotsky, >> and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my >> book Voices of the Mind.? It is not a term >> used by Soviet scholars when talking about >> the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms >> there were ?socio-historical? or >> ?cultural-historical.? >> >> Mike Cole told me: >> >> In addition to what has been said on line ... >> initially, the term "sociocultural" was used >> as a term of abuse by the opponents of >> Vygotsky's ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, >> so it was not a term which his Russian >> followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility >> to Vygotsky came to a head, apparently, in >> 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin >> and the Soviets prevented Russian delegates >> form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on >> a sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet >> Union, and was angry about what he saw, was >> at the congress too and went from there to a >> conference in Spain where a group of Spanish >> Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists >> had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global >> South" and they used the term "sociocultural" >> for their approach, meaning something like >> Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced >> this idea and henceforth adopted to term, >> meaning to distinguish himself from the >> Soviet-influence. CHAT emerged as a term a >> little later in an effort to unite the >> followers of the various brands of "Activity >> Theory" with those who did not embrace the >> Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian >> followers and stuck with Vygotsky. CHAT >> includes the H for History, because in all >> the various terms being used at that time, >> there was no attention to the important place >> of History in theory, and it was Mike who >> insisted on its inclusion. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> >> On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> I should have reported progress with my question. >> >> Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike >> Cole Skyped me and between these two I have a >> very rich history of the usage of this term >> and the various nuances it acquired and shed, >> and Mike has put the article Martin referred >> to on his academia.edu >> >> page for us all to read. >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!VTGuGy4gvXj-8N5E9YCj2IevXlVoBhK7UBQ37lx10IRWhO4lMbcXmdD-gzoCEFbwAHkyCA$ >> >> >> As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless >> mine of wisdom. Thank you. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> >> On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: >> >> Thank you Anthony for the interesting >> question and link. The way I see this >> issue is that?Vygotskian work attempts?to >> understand human activity >> multi-dimensionally (or even better >> holistically, trying to reunite what the >> emergence of various parochial >> disciplines have pulled?apart for >> analysis of the separate dimensions).? >> The different terms that Veresov points >> out as contending are simply >> foregrounding those sets of components >> that are most salient to the particular >> analyst at that moment.? To those we >> might add other elements that Vygotsky >> was interested in such as consciousness >> and language and experience and mediation >> (and even economics and human >> knowledge?and education lurk in the >> background, as well as human >> neurodiversity as well as materialities >> of the experienced world).? That is the >> wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may >> have developed some of the components >> more than others and he was acting >> nominally as a psychologist--yet his >> approach allows the integration of all >> these components. >> >> I therefore use different conjunctions of >> terms depending on what I am talking >> about, and I see activity as the >> overarching term--though this does not >> necessarily mean triangles all the time.? >> Rather activity is humans in motion, >> mobilizing multiple internal and external >> resources in situations. >> >> While I would like some stability in >> terms, right now our different concerns >> and issues leave salience mutable. And I >> am not yet?comfortable in being >> terminally enlisted into another >> scholar's transient saliencies. >> >> BTW, I see another related, parallel >> attempt at reintegrating the social >> sciences in the pragmatist project which >> has at times been in communication with >> the activity theory project (see my paper >> "Practically Human").? This project also >> never settled on a coherent set of terms >> and stable concepts. >> >> Chuck >> >> ---- >> >> ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? >> >> ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? >> >> Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de >> inmigrantes. >> >> The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. >> >> History will judge. >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!VTGuGy4gvXj-8N5E9YCj2IevXlVoBhK7UBQ37lx10IRWhO4lMbcXmdD-gzoCEFaOK3DlGw$ >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!VTGuGy4gvXj-8N5E9YCj2IevXlVoBhK7UBQ37lx10IRWhO4lMbcXmdD-gzoCEFYJMTa8Jw$ >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!VTGuGy4gvXj-8N5E9YCj2IevXlVoBhK7UBQ37lx10IRWhO4lMbcXmdD-gzoCEFZjtgCkFA$ >> >> >> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony >> Barra > > wrote: >> >> Interesting question (and follow-ups) >> here.? Thanks, Andy. >> >> While not 100% related, I wonder if >> this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any >> value: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!VTGuGy4gvXj-8N5E9YCj2IevXlVoBhK7UBQ37lx10IRWhO4lMbcXmdD-gzoCEFZqu1SVbg$ >> ?"Pros >> and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" >> >> As a non-expert, I can empathize with >> Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so >> sure the cons outweigh the pros here. >> >> But what WOULD happen if a >> terminological consensus was formed >> -- could Vygotsky's theory (and >> methodology), in fact, be >> definitively defined?? If so, would >> the?benefits of doing so outweigh the >> constraints? >> >> I'm guessing this is an old >> conversation, and maybe even stale, >> but I'm more outsider than insider >> and don't really know. >> >> Thank you for any insight. >> >> Anthony >> >> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM >> Martin Packer > > wrote: >> >> I had assumed you were looking >> for uses earlier than Jim >> Wertsch?s, Andy. >> >> Jim used the term in titles in >> 1989 too. And in the introduction >> to this book he, along with Pablo >> del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, >> explain why in their view it?s >> the best term: >> >> >> >> Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & >> Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). >> /Sociocultural studies of mind./ >> Cambridge University Press. >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, >> Andy Blunden >> > > >> wrote: >> >> Thanks to everyone for their >> help. It all went into the >> mix. Indeed, the term seems >> to have migrated from Spanish >> to English and the word >> "sociocultural" became >> popular in 1990, and it seems >> that Jim Wertsch is the >> fellow who triggered the >> explosion in "sociocultural >> psychology" with "Voices of >> the mind : a sociocultural >> approach to mediated action >> " >> published by Harvard >> University Press in 1991. >> >> Although "sociocultural" >> seems to be most widely >> associated with "context >> dependence," Wertsch's >> reference to "mediated >> action" in the title of this >> book makes it clear that for >> him "context" referred to the >> signs and artefacts mediating >> action. >> >> Thanks again to all >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> >> On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David >> Kellogg wrote: >> >> Andy-- >> >> Go to to the Google >> N-gram site itself. >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!VTGuGy4gvXj-8N5E9YCj2IevXlVoBhK7UBQ37lx10IRWhO4lMbcXmdD-gzoCEFYfZKt5UA$ >> >> >> Then do your own n-gram >> for "sociocultural >> psychology". If you set >> the years you'll get >> better granularity in the >> document search. >> >> On the bottom of the >> n-gram, there are some >> dates in blue--when you >> click on them, you should >> get a list of all the >> books used in the search. >> >> dk >> >> >> David Kellogg >> >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya >> Hasan, in memoriam: A >> manual and a manifesto. >> >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VTGuGy4gvXj-8N5E9YCj2IevXlVoBhK7UBQ37lx10IRWhO4lMbcXmdD-gzoCEFZwU83keg$ >> >> >> New Translation with >> Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >> Vygotsky's Pedological >> Works/ /Volume One: >> Foundations of Pedology/" >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VTGuGy4gvXj-8N5E9YCj2IevXlVoBhK7UBQ37lx10IRWhO4lMbcXmdD-gzoCEFbOqC8nxQ$ >> >> >> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at >> 11:17 AM Martin Packer >> > > >> wrote: >> >> The earliest use of >> the term >> ?sociocultural? I?ve >> been able to find in >> English is this: >> >> A?sociocultural >> psychology, >> by?Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero >> >> In "Chicano >> psychology", 1977 - >> Academic Press >> >> Diaz-Guerrero was >> Mexican psychologists >> whose publications in >> Spanish use the term >> ?sociocultural? >> frequently. >> >> The 2nd edition of >> Chicano Psychology is >> available in Google >> books, >> and?Diaz-Guerrero has >> a chapter in it, but >> titled The >> psychological study >> of the Mexican. >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> On May 12, 2020, >> at 8:47 PM, Andy >> Blunden >> > > >> wrote: >> >> That graph from >> Google shows that >> usage of the term >> took off in 1988. >> How do we find >> out who wrote >> what in 1988? >> >> And Google also >> tell us that >> "Sociocultural?theory >> grew from the >> work of >> seminal?psychologist?Lev >> Vygotsky, who >> believed that >> parents, >> caregivers, >> peers, and the >> culture at large >> were responsible >> for developing >> higher-order >> functions. >> According to >> Vygotsky, >> learning has its >> basis in >> interacting with >> other people," >> together with a >> reference. So >> that is nice. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social >> Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> >> On 13/05/2020 >> 11:30 am, David >> Kellogg wrote: >> >> Andy: >> >> I did a >> Google N-gram >> on it. You >> probably >> thought of >> doing this >> too, but >> here's what I >> got. >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!VTGuGy4gvXj-8N5E9YCj2IevXlVoBhK7UBQ37lx10IRWhO4lMbcXmdD-gzoCEFan0RuEeA$ >> " >> width=900 >> height=500 >> marginwidth=0 >> marginheight=0 >> hspace=0 >> vspace=0 >> frameborder=0 >> scrolling=no >> >> So it all >> starts around >> 1960. At >> first I >> thought this >> probably >> referred to >> the Hanfmann >> and Vakar >> "Thought and >> Language", >> but when I >> looked the >> only books >> that used the >> term were >> sports >> psychology >> books. The >> big uptick >> after 1992 is >> Vygotsky though. >> >> Of course, >> this is all >> English only. >> I am sure you >> will find >> very >> different >> results in >> German, where >> "cultural >> historical >> psychology" >> is the trend >> identified >> with Dilthey, >> Spranger, and >> neo-Kantianism >> generally. >> >> >> David Kellogg >> >> Sangmyung >> University >> >> New Article: >> Ruqaiya >> Hasan, in >> memoriam: A >> manual and a >> manifesto. >> >> Outlines, >> Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VTGuGy4gvXj-8N5E9YCj2IevXlVoBhK7UBQ37lx10IRWhO4lMbcXmdD-gzoCEFZwU83keg$ >> >> >> New >> Translation >> with Nikolai >> Veresov: >> /L.S. >> Vygotsky's >> Pedological >> Works/ >> /Volume One: >> Foundations >> of Pedology/" >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VTGuGy4gvXj-8N5E9YCj2IevXlVoBhK7UBQ37lx10IRWhO4lMbcXmdD-gzoCEFbOqC8nxQ$ >> >> >> On Tue, May >> 12, 2020 at >> 10:43 PM Andy >> Blunden >> > > >> wrote: >> >> Can >> anyone >> tell me >> when and >> with whom >> the term >> "sociocultural >> psychology" >> originated? >> >> Andy >> >> -- >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *Andy >> Blunden* >> Hegel for >> Social >> Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200518/655e93be/attachment-0001.html From d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk Mon May 18 05:18:33 2020 From: d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk (WEBSTER, DAVID S.) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 12:18:33 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Wittgenstein's Remarks on Frazier In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Annalisa, be assured that I am not misunderstanding Wittgenstein?s intent with regard to Frazer ? if only because he plainly states (and I can read you know) at the beginning of his remarks that Frazer?s account is unsatisfactory (and see below), and that one must find the path from error to truth. And again, to be clear, whether I believe in Druids, or Covid19 for that matter, is a matter of whose testimony one trusts and the experiential consequences, if any, thereof. Druids carry none of the latter; their existence I can live with and as to whatever is claimed of their beliefs and customs, and skills, I am happy to be agnostic. As for the existence and experiential consequences of Covid19 I am ? dare I say ? rational enough not to be agnostic at all. So, putting aside your rhetorical smoke screens let us try and find some common ground. Apropos your comment that Wittgenstein at the end of his life reacquainted himself with a spiritual life, You might have a look (if you have not already) at Russell Nieli?s Wittgenstein: From Mysticism to Ordinary Language 1987, State University of New York Press. A somewhat iconoclastic [?] treatment of Wittgenstein, but worth a read. Another philosopher hero of mine is the eminent Philosopher of History and Archaeologist, Robin George Collingwood (1889-1943). As it happens Collingwood did considered folk-tales as historical evidence (see R G Collingwood, 2004, The Philosophy of Enchantment, Studies in Folktale, Cultural Criticism and Anthropology (David Boucher, Wendy James, and Philip Smallwood, Eds.), and Collingwood was a member of the Folklore Society (joined 1936). The aforementioned book is Collingwood?s hitherto unpublished manuscripts ? essays for the Folklore Society. In addition, in his day, Collingwood was the foremost authority on Roman Britain - the history and archaeology thereof. With regard to the Druids, and in the same year Collingwood joined the Folklore Society, Collingwood wrote ? in a wonderfully dramatic narrative style, long-since frowned upon ? that: Paulinus [Roman Governor] by 61 [AD] had reached the Menai Straights and in that year, he proposed to conquer Anglesey [reputed Druid stronghold]?His crossing was opposed by a strange and awe-inspiring assembly. Among the groups of warriors women in ceremonial dress bearing lighted torches, ran hither and thither; behind them were druids, standing by the fires of human sacrifice, their hands raised in prayer for help against the invaders. The Romans at first shrank from so weird a sight; then recollecting themselves, leapt ashore, fell upon warriors, priest, and women indiscriminately, cut them down, and flung them into their own fires. It was not a battle but a massacre (Collingwood & Myres 1936, Roman Britain and The English Settlements p.99). Thus, a renowned historical scholar schooled in Greek and Latin from an early age (five and six respectively), who had read and studied Tacitus and Caesar etc., in their original Latin (all there is on druids as per the Romans but there is some 7th century Irish sources pertaining to Druids ? ? in The Book of Armagh); and the foremost scholar of Roman Epigraphy in Britain; and was sympathetic to the use of folklore in historical recounting, only found it worth stating about the druids that they got themselves massacred in Anglesey in 61AD. Regarding folklore, Collingwood was proposing a new mode of archaeology which studies fragments of customs and beliefs (as opposed to fragments of material things) handed down in traditional stories; that themes found in fairy-tales are organically connected the customs and beliefs of the people who originate them. Collingwood proposed that there had hitherto been three approaches to folklore: 1) that of Grimm and of Max Muller which was philological; 2) that of Tylor and of Frazer which was functional; 3) that of Freud and of Jung which was psychological. All three approaches were wrong because they were naturalistic, i.e. folklore was to be contemplated from without, as mythopoetic (Muller), as folly (Frazer), or as neurosis (Freud). In contradistinction Collingwood held that such tales should be viewed with respect to their relation to one?s own, and or one?s culture?s self-understanding as reflected in literature, ? Collingwood?s father William G Collingwood (and Private Secretary to John Ruskin) wrote a story for his children titled Thorstein of the Mere which wove together the Viking-based folktales of the Lake District where they lived. The children were then expected to make papia mashie and chicken wire versions of the hills and dales where the events of the story took place. Apropos your question to Andy Blunden re pertaining to a culture, a society, a language, or history, or tool - Do these items have no ability to form or influence thought in the development of an individual? Well the answer is undoubtedly so. I see Andy has offered his own answer but surely that should have included Vygotsky point that enculturation proceeds from society to the individual child. The problem, which you offer no help with (or have I missed this bit?), is how best to understand how enculturation, in all its modes, goes through. Regards David ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 17 May 2020 20:35 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Wittgenstein's Remarks on Frazier Hi David W and also venerable others (and also to Andy farther down below), [Note: I decided to create a new thread from what was the thread: Heartening news in Kerala] I'm not sure that you understand what Wittgenstein intended in his remarks. He took exception to Frazier's "explanations." I think you misunderstand his project. Wittgenstein at the end of his life reacquainted himself with a spiritual life, i.e., he valued ritual. I think his objection to Frazier is illustrated (not explained) here: "Already the idea of explaining the practice?say the killing of the priest king?seems to me wrong-headed. All that Frazer does is to make the practice plausible to those who think like him. It is very strange to present all these practices, in the end, so to speak, as foolishness. "But it never does become plausible that people do all this out of sheer stupidity. "When he explains to us, for example, that the king would have to be killed in his prime because, according to the notions of the savages, his soul would otherwise not be kept fresh, then one can only say: where that practice and these notions go together, there the practice does not spring from the notion; instead they are simply both present. "It could well be, and often occurs today, that someone gives up a practice after having realized an error that this practice depended on. But then again, this case holds only when it is enough to make someone aware of his error so as to dissuade him from his mode of action. But surely, this is not the case with the religious practices of a people, and that is why we are not dealing with an error here." (pg 142, Mythology in our Language: Wittgenstein's Remarks on Frazier's Golden Bough) ==== You had written: Apropos Wittgenstein on Frazer 'It was not a trivial reason, for in reality there can be no reason, that prompted certain races of mankind to venerate the oak tree, but only the fact that they and the oak were united in a community of life, and that they arose together not by chance but rather like the flea and the dog (If fleas developed a right, it would be based on the dog).' And ' but what I see in those stories is nevertheless acquired by the evidence, including such evidence as does not appear to be directly connected with them, - through the thoughts of man and his past, through all the strange things I see, and have seen and heard about, in myself and others.' In your supplied quote, isn't W saying that we can't say that there is a connection where it may just be happenstance of life. That (Frazier's) need for explanation is ill-placed. Some things can just be. W uses example of the ellipse and the circle. Just because we can see their commonality in form, does not mean that the ellipse "developed" from the circle, or vice versa. All we can say is that they share attributes. There is no need for any explanation, and if there is, it says more about us than about the reality about which we hope to explain. I find it hard to believe that the Druids are just a flight of fancy, a wish, like Santa Claus, which still was based upon a real historical person. Just because I mention Santa Claus, doesn't mean I BELIEVE in Santa Claus, but I do believe there was a person from which these folk stories generated. Is that the belief that you speak about? Do I need hard facts to be allowed to discuss Santa Claus on this list? If the Druids are simply made up, then why did the Romans erect laws forbidding their practices? (Which apparently involved human sacrifice) Why are they mentioned in long traditions in folk stories in various different cultures? I'm just not sure why it has invoked such an "anti-druid" response in you. The Cathars did not seem to do that for you, another group of people who were little understood and what little we know was also set down by their persecutors. Must I also say that they did not exist as well? ----- I also saw this note and thought it might pertain to the earlier discussion on the word "sociocultural": "That a human shadow, which looks like a human being, or one?s mirror image, that rain, thunderstorms, the phases of the moon, the change of seasons, the likeness or difference of animals to one another and to human beings, the phenomenon of death, of birth, and of sexual life, in short, everything that a human being senses around himself, year in, year out, in manifold mutual connection? *that all this should play a role in the thought of human beings (their philosophy) and in their practices is self-evident;* or, in other words, it is what we really know and find interesting. (my emphasis) "How could the fire or the fire?s resemblance to the sun have failed to make an impression on the awakening mind of man? But not perhaps 'because he can?t explain it to himself' (the stupid superstition of our time)?for does an 'explanation' make it less impressive??" (pg 40, Mythology in our Language: Wittgenstein's Remarks on Frazier's Golden Bough) And thus I come to the question for Andy: do the items, that W lists in the first paragraph of the quote above, pertain to a culture, a society, a language, or history, or tool? Do these items have no ability to form or influence thought in the development of an individual? If they do, how do they relate to Vygotskian/CHAT theories? If they do not, why not? Kind regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200518/be9e8d70/attachment.html From helenaworthen@gmail.com Mon May 18 10:15:11 2020 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 10:15:11 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: <5B7BE311-79A6-42A2-AC73-098851C1C2DC@cantab.net> References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> <5B7BE311-79A6-42A2-AC73-098851C1C2DC@cantab.net> Message-ID: <50CD14BE-1F4C-4695-94EF-7E2222FD8718@gmail.com> This whole thread should be tagged and archived and linked to the Re-Gen project. H Helena Worthen helenaworthen.wordpress.com > On May 17, 2020, at 5:34 PM, Martin Packer wrote: > > That sounds pretty dire, Greg. > > On the positive side, the US national data show new cases have increased less than 2% each day for the past week. In Utah the figures have hovered around 2% daily during that time. > > In Colombia the official data show increases of 5% daily, and we have every reason to think they are strongly underreported. > > I still can?t predict what?s going to happen! ;) > > Martin > > > >> On May 15, 2020, at 8:34 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: >> >> David, >> >> South Korea's "spike" in Covid-19 cases is America's early afternoon yawn. We are currently celebrating how we have "flattened the curve" since we are "down" around 25,000 new cases PER DAY, and the powers-that-be have decided that it is time to open everything back up (folks in my neighborhood are entirely back to normal life, no social distancing, no masks (Hitler), no precautions). SK hasn't even had that many cases since the beginning of the outbreak! >> >> By the numbers: >> SK:11K individuals infected and 260 dead >> U.S.: 1.4 million cases and about 88k dead >> (US population is about 6x that of SK). >> >> Rugged individualism indeed. >> -greg >> >> On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 5:46 PM David Kellogg > wrote: >> I don't think I would call Sorokin a "democratic socialist", Mike. He was a member of the Social Revolutionists--the "Narodniki" who tried to assassinate Lenin. But then he became a moral conservative, rather in the style of Solzhenitsyn, and apparently Mike Pence is really big on his writings; he claimed that Sorokin demonstrated that the collapse of civilizations follow directly on the collapse of "one man one woman" families. >> >> Au fait, we are having a bit of a spike in Covid 19 cases here in Seoul at present. For once it is not linked to churches but rather to clubhopping in Itaewon (where you can apparently buy a ticket to one club and get free drinks and free entry in another five). Clubbing, like choir practice, is very conducive to shouting in each other's faces. (So are families, though--some "cognitive deficits" are not even differences.) >> >> (Even I have mellowed as a result of the pandemic. I had to record a lecture yesterday and when I played it back I noticed that for the first time in my life I don't sound like I am addressing a charging battalion of riot police. But maybe that is just professorship and not prophylaxis....) >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!TCflcsBJ1_6dJNSTKPpdmhJ4MxY3OsSqfX2OhEJSjk5gk4rcj2PXezwb5ZzKLu2Pvr9uxQ$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TCflcsBJ1_6dJNSTKPpdmhJ4MxY3OsSqfX2OhEJSjk5gk4rcj2PXezwb5ZzKLu0OJk4mCg$ >> >> >> On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 3:38 AM mike cole > wrote: >> I read your Sorokiin note out of order, David. >> >> So sociocultural has democratic socialist origins that map the discontent that emerged in Madrid. >> mike >> >> On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 9:20 AM WEBSTER, DAVID S. > wrote: >> Sorokin was also Prime Minister Kerensky's (Feb revolution) private secretary. After the October revolution he got involved in a bit of hapless counter-revolutionary activity and was condemned to the firing squad. Through the intervention of Lenin, Sorokin was offered a deal, as a prominent liberal figure. If he renounced, in an open published letter, his opposition to the Bolsheviks and made no further attacks, then he could take up his position as a sociologist at Moscow University. Lenin's logic was that Sorokin gave up his opposition, this would make it easier for other of the liberal/professionals to do likewise. Needless to say Sorokin kept up his criticism of the Bolsheviks but no action was taken against him. However when Lenin suffered a stroke and was in a coma, Sorokin, wisely, took himself and family off to America. >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Greg Thompson > >> Sent: 15 May 2020 15:48 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >> >> Mike, >> Just wondering if you ever heard of Pitirim Alexandrovich Sorokin's (Sociology, Harvard) use of "sociocultural" pre-WWII? >> Any recollections? >> -greg >> (and in case anyone is interested in this Russian-born interdisciplinary sociologist who became the first head of the Sociology Department at Harvard (and used the term "sociocultural" in 1937): https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.suz.uzh.ch/dam/jcr:00000000-36d7-41d4-0000-000064b51e55/simpson_sorokin.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!TCflcsBJ1_6dJNSTKPpdmhJ4MxY3OsSqfX2OhEJSjk5gk4rcj2PXezwb5ZzKLu03cgM3sg$ ) >> >> On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:20 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: >> Mike tells me that my account is indeed "pretty muddled," so please do not quote anything from that email, and do not ascribe any of it to Mike. The chapter Mike sent around, and Jim Wertsch's book, are the places to go for reliable information. >> Sorry. >> >> Andy >> Andy Blunden >> Hegel for Social Movements >> Home Page >> On 15/05/2020 11:24 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. >>> >>> Jim Wertsch said: >>> Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? or ?cultural-historical.? >>> >>> Mike Cole told me: >>> >>> In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. >>> >>> Andy >>> Andy Blunden >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> Home Page >>> On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>> I should have reported progress with my question. >>>> >>>> Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin referred to on his academia.edu page for us all to read. >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!TCflcsBJ1_6dJNSTKPpdmhJ4MxY3OsSqfX2OhEJSjk5gk4rcj2PXezwb5ZzKLu359SUETA$ >>>> As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> Andy Blunden >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> Home Page >>>> On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: >>>>> Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the components more than others and he was acting nominally as a psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these components. >>>>> >>>>> I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. >>>>> >>>>> While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. >>>>> >>>>> BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. >>>>> >>>>> Chuck >>>>> ---- >>>>> ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? >>>>> ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? >>>>> Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. >>>>> The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. >>>>> History will judge. >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!TCflcsBJ1_6dJNSTKPpdmhJ4MxY3OsSqfX2OhEJSjk5gk4rcj2PXezwb5ZzKLu1FNAsu1w$ >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!TCflcsBJ1_6dJNSTKPpdmhJ4MxY3OsSqfX2OhEJSjk5gk4rcj2PXezwb5ZzKLu1LDhlJrQ$ >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!TCflcsBJ1_6dJNSTKPpdmhJ4MxY3OsSqfX2OhEJSjk5gk4rcj2PXezwb5ZzKLu1Znq0kAQ$ >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: >>>>> Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. >>>>> >>>>> While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!TCflcsBJ1_6dJNSTKPpdmhJ4MxY3OsSqfX2OhEJSjk5gk4rcj2PXezwb5ZzKLu1JfVDqtQ$ "Pros and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" >>>>> >>>>> As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so sure the cons outweigh the pros here. >>>>> >>>>> But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? >>>>> I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm more outsider than insider and don't really know. >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for any insight. >>>>> >>>>> Anthony >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer > wrote: >>>>> I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. >>>>> >>>>> Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their view it?s the best term: >>>>> >>>>> Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). Sociocultural studies of mind. Cambridge University Press. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action " published by Harvard University Press in 1991. >>>>>> Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and artefacts mediating action. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks again to all >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>> Home Page >>>>>> On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>>>> Andy-- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!TCflcsBJ1_6dJNSTKPpdmhJ4MxY3OsSqfX2OhEJSjk5gk4rcj2PXezwb5ZzKLu2Xbs4o_w$ >>>>>>> Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the years you'll get better granularity in the document search. >>>>>>> On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> dk >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>>>> >>>>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!TCflcsBJ1_6dJNSTKPpdmhJ4MxY3OsSqfX2OhEJSjk5gk4rcj2PXezwb5ZzKLu2Pvr9uxQ$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TCflcsBJ1_6dJNSTKPpdmhJ4MxY3OsSqfX2OhEJSjk5gk4rcj2PXezwb5ZzKLu0OJk4mCg$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer > wrote: >>>>>>> The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in English is this: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use the term ?sociocultural? frequently. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study of the Mexican. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>>>> Home Page >>>>>>>> On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>>>>>> Andy: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but here's what I got. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!TCflcsBJ1_6dJNSTKPpdmhJ4MxY3OsSqfX2OhEJSjk5gk4rcj2PXezwb5ZzKLu0zFH4nVQ$ " width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 frameborder=0 scrolling=no >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after 1992 is Vygotsky though. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>>>>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!TCflcsBJ1_6dJNSTKPpdmhJ4MxY3OsSqfX2OhEJSjk5gk4rcj2PXezwb5ZzKLu2Pvr9uxQ$ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TCflcsBJ1_6dJNSTKPpdmhJ4MxY3OsSqfX2OhEJSjk5gk4rcj2PXezwb5ZzKLu0OJk4mCg$ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: >>>>>>>>> Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" originated? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>>>>> Home Page >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!TCflcsBJ1_6dJNSTKPpdmhJ4MxY3OsSqfX2OhEJSjk5gk4rcj2PXezwb5ZzKLu0hfRgIEw$ >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!TCflcsBJ1_6dJNSTKPpdmhJ4MxY3OsSqfX2OhEJSjk5gk4rcj2PXezwb5ZzKLu3C5w59ww$ >> >> -- >> ?It is education which should play the central role in the transformation of man - this road of conscious social formation of new generations, the basic form to alter the historical human type. New generations and new forms of their education represent the main route which history will follow whilst creating the new type of man. Vygotsky (1932?; 1994, p.81). >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit >> lchc.ucsd.edu . For archival materials and a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!TCflcsBJ1_6dJNSTKPpdmhJ4MxY3OsSqfX2OhEJSjk5gk4rcj2PXezwb5ZzKLu0hfRgIEw$ >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!TCflcsBJ1_6dJNSTKPpdmhJ4MxY3OsSqfX2OhEJSjk5gk4rcj2PXezwb5ZzKLu3C5w59ww$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200518/b2353427/attachment.html From d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk Mon May 18 11:00:25 2020 From: d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk (WEBSTER, DAVID S.) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 18:00:25 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: <50CD14BE-1F4C-4695-94EF-7E2222FD8718@gmail.com> References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> <5B7BE311-79A6-42A2-AC73-098851C1C2DC@cantab.net>, <50CD14BE-1F4C-4695-94EF-7E2222FD8718@gmail.com> Message-ID: No Helena it now needs to end for it cannot go anywhere else - What is the Ren-Gen project? ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Helena Worthen Sent: 18 May 2020 17:15 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? This whole thread should be tagged and archived and linked to the Re-Gen project. H Helena Worthen helenaworthen.wordpress.com On May 17, 2020, at 5:34 PM, Martin Packer > wrote: That sounds pretty dire, Greg. On the positive side, the US national data show new cases have increased less than 2% each day for the past week. In Utah the figures have hovered around 2% daily during that time. In Colombia the official data show increases of 5% daily, and we have every reason to think they are strongly underreported. I still can?t predict what?s going to happen! ;) Martin On May 15, 2020, at 8:34 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: David, South Korea's "spike" in Covid-19 cases is America's early afternoon yawn. We are currently celebrating how we have "flattened the curve" since we are "down" around 25,000 new cases PER DAY, and the powers-that-be have decided that it is time to open everything back up (folks in my neighborhood are entirely back to normal life, no social distancing, no masks (Hitler), no precautions). SK hasn't even had that many cases since the beginning of the outbreak! By the numbers: SK:11K individuals infected and 260 dead U.S.: 1.4 million cases and about 88k dead (US population is about 6x that of SK). Rugged individualism indeed. -greg On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 5:46 PM David Kellogg > wrote: I don't think I would call Sorokin a "democratic socialist", Mike. He was a member of the Social Revolutionists--the "Narodniki" who tried to assassinate Lenin. But then he became a moral conservative, rather in the style of Solzhenitsyn, and apparently Mike Pence is really big on his writings; he claimed that Sorokin demonstrated that the collapse of civilizations follow directly on the collapse of "one man one woman" families. Au fait, we are having a bit of a spike in Covid 19 cases here in Seoul at present. For once it is not linked to churches but rather to clubhopping in Itaewon (where you can apparently buy a ticket to one club and get free drinks and free entry in another five). Clubbing, like choir practice, is very conducive to shouting in each other's faces. (So are families, though--some "cognitive deficits" are not even differences.) (Even I have mellowed as a result of the pandemic. I had to record a lecture yesterday and when I played it back I noticed that for the first time in my life I don't sound like I am addressing a charging battalion of riot police. But maybe that is just professorship and not prophylaxis....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!V-1lolJ7AD4nLq0NWt9J6c-9xWwPQE4SQ239DFE8ROao6uBz19adMgsvu07rHHH44fmEuA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!V-1lolJ7AD4nLq0NWt9J6c-9xWwPQE4SQ239DFE8ROao6uBz19adMgsvu07rHHGfuUUt7g$ On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 3:38 AM mike cole > wrote: I read your Sorokiin note out of order, David. So sociocultural has democratic socialist origins that map the discontent that emerged in Madrid. mike On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 9:20 AM WEBSTER, DAVID S. > wrote: Sorokin was also Prime Minister Kerensky's (Feb revolution) private secretary. After the October revolution he got involved in a bit of hapless counter-revolutionary activity and was condemned to the firing squad. Through the intervention of Lenin, Sorokin was offered a deal, as a prominent liberal figure. If he renounced, in an open published letter, his opposition to the Bolsheviks and made no further attacks, then he could take up his position as a sociologist at Moscow University. Lenin's logic was that Sorokin gave up his opposition, this would make it easier for other of the liberal/professionals to do likewise. Needless to say Sorokin kept up his criticism of the Bolsheviks but no action was taken against him. However when Lenin suffered a stroke and was in a coma, Sorokin, wisely, took himself and family off to America. ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Greg Thompson > Sent: 15 May 2020 15:48 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? Mike, Just wondering if you ever heard of Pitirim Alexandrovich Sorokin's (Sociology, Harvard) use of "sociocultural" pre-WWII? Any recollections? -greg (and in case anyone is interested in this Russian-born interdisciplinary sociologist who became the first head of the Sociology Department at Harvard (and used the term "sociocultural" in 1937): https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.suz.uzh.ch/dam/jcr:00000000-36d7-41d4-0000-000064b51e55/simpson_sorokin.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!V-1lolJ7AD4nLq0NWt9J6c-9xWwPQE4SQ239DFE8ROao6uBz19adMgsvu07rHHEhrlT4sQ$ ) On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:20 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Mike tells me that my account is indeed "pretty muddled," so please do not quote anything from that email, and do not ascribe any of it to Mike. The chapter Mike sent around, and Jim Wertsch's book, are the places to go for reliable information. Sorry. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 15/05/2020 11:24 am, Andy Blunden wrote: In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. Jim Wertsch said: Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? or ?cultural-historical.? Mike Cole told me: In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: I should have reported progress with my question. Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin referred to on his academia.edu page for us all to read. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!V-1lolJ7AD4nLq0NWt9J6c-9xWwPQE4SQ239DFE8ROao6uBz19adMgsvu07rHHE03y75bg$ As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the components more than others and he was acting nominally as a psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these components. I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. Chuck ---- ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. History will judge. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!V-1lolJ7AD4nLq0NWt9J6c-9xWwPQE4SQ239DFE8ROao6uBz19adMgsvu07rHHEvr1pGcQ$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!V-1lolJ7AD4nLq0NWt9J6c-9xWwPQE4SQ239DFE8ROao6uBz19adMgsvu07rHHETMuQIgA$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!V-1lolJ7AD4nLq0NWt9J6c-9xWwPQE4SQ239DFE8ROao6uBz19adMgsvu07rHHGc6IX4Ow$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!V-1lolJ7AD4nLq0NWt9J6c-9xWwPQE4SQ239DFE8ROao6uBz19adMgsvu07rHHGzzGGCIg$ "Pros and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so sure the cons outweigh the pros here. But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm more outsider than insider and don't really know. Thank you for any insight. Anthony On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer > wrote: I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their view it?s the best term: Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). Sociocultural studies of mind. Cambridge University Press. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action" published by Harvard University Press in 1991. Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and artefacts mediating action. Thanks again to all Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: Andy-- Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!V-1lolJ7AD4nLq0NWt9J6c-9xWwPQE4SQ239DFE8ROao6uBz19adMgsvu07rHHH-nguBXA$ Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the years you'll get better granularity in the document search. On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. dk David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!V-1lolJ7AD4nLq0NWt9J6c-9xWwPQE4SQ239DFE8ROao6uBz19adMgsvu07rHHH44fmEuA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!V-1lolJ7AD4nLq0NWt9J6c-9xWwPQE4SQ239DFE8ROao6uBz19adMgsvu07rHHGfuUUt7g$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer > wrote: The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in English is this: A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use the term ?sociocultural? frequently. The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study of the Mexican. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: Andy: I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but here's what I got. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!V-1lolJ7AD4nLq0NWt9J6c-9xWwPQE4SQ239DFE8ROao6uBz19adMgsvu07rHHHVkyIuxA$ " width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 frameborder=0 scrolling=no So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after 1992 is Vygotsky though. Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!V-1lolJ7AD4nLq0NWt9J6c-9xWwPQE4SQ239DFE8ROao6uBz19adMgsvu07rHHH44fmEuA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!V-1lolJ7AD4nLq0NWt9J6c-9xWwPQE4SQ239DFE8ROao6uBz19adMgsvu07rHHGfuUUt7g$ On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" originated? Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!V-1lolJ7AD4nLq0NWt9J6c-9xWwPQE4SQ239DFE8ROao6uBz19adMgsvu07rHHHu-xLdyw$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!V-1lolJ7AD4nLq0NWt9J6c-9xWwPQE4SQ239DFE8ROao6uBz19adMgsvu07rHHHbe8-6qg$ -- ?It is education which should play the central role in the transformation of man - this road of conscious social formation of new generations, the basic form to alter the historical human type. New generations and new forms of their education represent the main route which history will follow whilst creating the new type of man. Vygotsky (1932?; 1994, p.81). --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For archival materials and a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!V-1lolJ7AD4nLq0NWt9J6c-9xWwPQE4SQ239DFE8ROao6uBz19adMgsvu07rHHHu-xLdyw$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!V-1lolJ7AD4nLq0NWt9J6c-9xWwPQE4SQ239DFE8ROao6uBz19adMgsvu07rHHHbe8-6qg$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200518/6b411373/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Mon May 18 14:57:06 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 22:57:06 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> <5B7BE311-79A6-42A2-AC73-098851C1C2DC@cantab.net> <50CD14BE-1F4C-4695-94EF-7E2222FD8718@gmail.com> Message-ID: David W., I think the "re-gen" project refers to the efforts various people have been involved in for creating more web-presence and collaborations pertaining to CHAT. Mike is a perpetual (one could say perennial) garden maker or instigator. Whether, intentional or not, coordination of different understandings is going to lead to different strategies. Perhaps this is why I have always sensed that 'CHAT' is the light version of these studies, with people electing for a simplified account that treats each domain separately and tends to overlook the denser, mutually implicating facets, such as how understanding and the morphology of action underly word usage. I do not recall the word pairing, although there was one case I came across recently in which a subject name was explicitly hyphenated to accentuate the focus upon the dialectical relation between the two terms, rather than merely to label each domain that the subject touched upon. Best, Huw On Mon, 18 May 2020 at 19:03, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: > No Helena it now needs to end for it cannot go anywhere else - What is the > Ren-Gen project? > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Helena Worthen > *Sent:* 18 May 2020 17:15 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > This whole thread should be tagged and archived and linked to the Re-Gen > project. > > H > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen.wordpress.com > > > > > > On May 17, 2020, at 5:34 PM, Martin Packer wrote: > > That sounds pretty dire, Greg. > > On the positive side, the US national data show new cases have increased > less than 2% each day for the past week. In Utah the figures have hovered > around 2% daily during that time. > > In Colombia the official data show increases of 5% daily, and we have > every reason to think they are strongly underreported. > > I still can?t predict what?s going to happen! ;) > > Martin > > > > On May 15, 2020, at 8:34 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > David, > > South Korea's "spike" in Covid-19 cases is America's early afternoon yawn. > We are currently celebrating how we have "flattened the curve" since we are > "down" around 25,000 new cases PER DAY, and the powers-that-be have decided > that it is time to open everything back up (folks in my neighborhood are > entirely back to normal life, no social distancing, no masks (Hitler), no > precautions). SK hasn't even had that many cases since the beginning of the > outbreak! > > By the numbers: > SK:11K individuals infected and 260 dead > U.S.: 1.4 million cases and about 88k dead > (US population is about 6x that of SK). > > Rugged individualism indeed. > -greg > > On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 5:46 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > > I don't think I would call Sorokin a "democratic socialist", Mike. He was > a member of the Social Revolutionists--the "Narodniki" who tried to > assassinate Lenin. But then he became a moral conservative, rather in the > style of Solzhenitsyn, and apparently Mike Pence is really big on his > writings; he claimed that Sorokin demonstrated that the collapse of > civilizations follow directly on the collapse of "one man one woman" > families. > > Au fait, we are having a bit of a spike in Covid 19 cases here in Seoul at > present. For once it is not linked to churches but rather to clubhopping in > Itaewon (where you can apparently buy a ticket to one club and get free > drinks and free entry in another five). Clubbing, like choir practice, is > very conducive to shouting in each other's faces. (So are families, > though--some "cognitive deficits" are not even differences.) > > (Even I have mellowed as a result of the pandemic. I had to record a > lecture yesterday and when I played it back I noticed that for the first > time in my life I don't sound like I am addressing a charging battalion of > riot police. But maybe that is just professorship and not prophylaxis....) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!SVMIMG7549xVGVhqefVpadFS6PIywH9yXXQtquhjcz7QucfcW-Avz6Z5YoI8Fl0XCDeLHg$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SVMIMG7549xVGVhqefVpadFS6PIywH9yXXQtquhjcz7QucfcW-Avz6Z5YoI8Fl359jwmNg$ > > > > > On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 3:38 AM mike cole wrote: > > I read your Sorokiin note out of order, David. > > So sociocultural has democratic socialist origins that map the discontent > that emerged in Madrid. > mike > > On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 9:20 AM WEBSTER, DAVID S. < > d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk> wrote: > > Sorokin was also Prime Minister Kerensky's (Feb revolution) private > secretary. After the October revolution he got involved in a bit of hapless > counter-revolutionary activity and was condemned to the firing squad. > Through the intervention of Lenin, Sorokin was offered a deal, as a > prominent liberal figure. If he renounced, in an open published letter, his > opposition to the Bolsheviks and made no further attacks, then he could > take up his position as a sociologist at Moscow University. Lenin's logic > was that Sorokin gave up his opposition, this would make it easier for > other of the liberal/professionals to do likewise. Needless to say Sorokin > kept up his criticism of the Bolsheviks but no action was taken against > him. However when Lenin suffered a stroke and was in a coma, Sorokin, > wisely, took himself and family off to America. > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Greg Thompson > *Sent:* 15 May 2020 15:48 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > Mike, > Just wondering if you ever heard of Pitirim Alexandrovich Sorokin's > (Sociology, Harvard) use of "sociocultural" pre-WWII? > Any recollections? > -greg > (and in case anyone is interested in this Russian-born interdisciplinary > sociologist who became the first head of the Sociology Department at > Harvard (and used the term "sociocultural" in 1937): > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.suz.uzh.ch/dam/jcr:00000000-36d7-41d4-0000-000064b51e55/simpson_sorokin.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!SVMIMG7549xVGVhqefVpadFS6PIywH9yXXQtquhjcz7QucfcW-Avz6Z5YoI8Fl3ggGaBZA$ > > ) > > On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:20 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > Mike tells me that my account is indeed "pretty muddled," so please do not > quote anything from that email, and do not ascribe any of it to Mike. The > chapter Mike sent around, and Jim Wertsch's book, are the places to go for > reliable information. > > Sorry. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 15/05/2020 11:24 am, Andy Blunden wrote: > > In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have > garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. > > Jim Wertsch said: > > Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I > consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology > and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches > that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 > book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices > of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about > the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? > or ?cultural-historical.? > > Mike Cole told me: > > In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term > "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's > ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian > followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, > apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets > prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a > sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what > he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in > Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists > had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term > "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like > Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted > to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT > emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the > various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the > Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. > CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being > used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History > in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: > > I should have reported progress with my question. > > Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between > these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the > various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin > referred to on his academia.edu > > page for us all to read. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!SVMIMG7549xVGVhqefVpadFS6PIywH9yXXQtquhjcz7QucfcW-Avz6Z5YoI8Fl1FN8niBA$ > > > As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: > > Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see > this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity > multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what > the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for > analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov > points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components > that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those > we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as > consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics > and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human > neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is > the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the > components more than others and he was acting nominally as a > psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these > components. > > I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am > talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does > not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in > motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. > > While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different > concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in > being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. > > BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social > sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication > with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This > project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. > > Chuck > ---- > ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? > ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? > Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. > The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. > History will judge. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!SVMIMG7549xVGVhqefVpadFS6PIywH9yXXQtquhjcz7QucfcW-Avz6Z5YoI8Fl3iIjG1_g$ > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!SVMIMG7549xVGVhqefVpadFS6PIywH9yXXQtquhjcz7QucfcW-Avz6Z5YoI8Fl03Qos0-A$ > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!SVMIMG7549xVGVhqefVpadFS6PIywH9yXXQtquhjcz7QucfcW-Avz6Z5YoI8Fl0SdNsbTw$ > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. > > While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any > value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!SVMIMG7549xVGVhqefVpadFS6PIywH9yXXQtquhjcz7QucfcW-Avz6Z5YoI8Fl1Hjegsfg$ > "Pros > and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" > > As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so > sure the cons outweigh the pros here. > > But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could > Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If > so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? > I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm > more outsider than insider and don't really know. > > Thank you for any insight. > > Anthony > > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer wrote: > > I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. > > Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this > book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their > view it?s the best term: > > Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). *Sociocultural > studies of mind.* Cambridge University Press. > > > Martin > > > > On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the > term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word > "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is > the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices > of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action > " > published by Harvard University Press in 1991. > > Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context > dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this > book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and > artefacts mediating action. > > Thanks again to all > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > Andy-- > > Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!SVMIMG7549xVGVhqefVpadFS6PIywH9yXXQtquhjcz7QucfcW-Avz6Z5YoI8Fl14506Cdg$ > > Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the > years you'll get better granularity in the document search. > On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click > on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. > > dk > > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!SVMIMG7549xVGVhqefVpadFS6PIywH9yXXQtquhjcz7QucfcW-Avz6Z5YoI8Fl0XCDeLHg$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SVMIMG7549xVGVhqefVpadFS6PIywH9yXXQtquhjcz7QucfcW-Avz6Z5YoI8Fl359jwmNg$ > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer wrote: > > The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in > English is this: > > A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero > > In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press > > Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use > the term ?sociocultural? frequently. > > The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, > and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study > of the Mexican. > > Martin > > > > > On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How > do we find out who wrote what in 1988? > > And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of > seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, > peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing > higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in > interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: > > Andy: > > I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but > here's what I got. > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!SVMIMG7549xVGVhqefVpadFS6PIywH9yXXQtquhjcz7QucfcW-Avz6Z5YoI8Fl3Qt_CjRA$ > " > width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 > frameborder=0 scrolling=no > > So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to > the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only > books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after > 1992 is Vygotsky though. > > Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very > different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the > trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!SVMIMG7549xVGVhqefVpadFS6PIywH9yXXQtquhjcz7QucfcW-Avz6Z5YoI8Fl0XCDeLHg$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SVMIMG7549xVGVhqefVpadFS6PIywH9yXXQtquhjcz7QucfcW-Avz6Z5YoI8Fl359jwmNg$ > > > > > On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" > originated? > > Andy > -- > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!SVMIMG7549xVGVhqefVpadFS6PIywH9yXXQtquhjcz7QucfcW-Avz6Z5YoI8Fl0ZO2PJVw$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!SVMIMG7549xVGVhqefVpadFS6PIywH9yXXQtquhjcz7QucfcW-Avz6Z5YoI8Fl1zLs1ejw$ > > > > > -- > > ?It is education which should play the central role in the transformation > of man - this road of conscious social formation of new generations, the > basic form to alter the historical human type. *New generations and new > forms of their education represent the main route which history will follow > whilst creating the new type of man. * Vygotsky (1932?; 1994, p.81). > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other > members of LCHC, visit > lchc.ucsd.edu. For archival materials and a narrative history of the > research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!SVMIMG7549xVGVhqefVpadFS6PIywH9yXXQtquhjcz7QucfcW-Avz6Z5YoI8Fl0ZO2PJVw$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!SVMIMG7549xVGVhqefVpadFS6PIywH9yXXQtquhjcz7QucfcW-Avz6Z5YoI8Fl1zLs1ejw$ > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200518/2400addb/attachment.html From d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk Tue May 19 00:05:11 2020 From: d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk (WEBSTER, DAVID S.) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 07:05:11 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <89f84e75-6f46-faa1-2b9d-a96817c30f91@marxists.org> <60932C97-600A-4936-8E08-8011B5113BC4@cantab.net> <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> <5B7BE311-79A6-42A2-AC73-098851C1C2DC@cantab.net> <50CD14BE-1F4C-4695-94EF-7E2222FD8718@gmail.com> , Message-ID: Thanks for that Huw. ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Huw Lloyd Sent: 18 May 2020 21:57 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? David W., I think the "re-gen" project refers to the efforts various people have been involved in for creating more web-presence and collaborations pertaining to CHAT. Mike is a perpetual (one could say perennial) garden maker or instigator. Whether, intentional or not, coordination of different understandings is going to lead to different strategies. Perhaps this is why I have always sensed that 'CHAT' is the light version of these studies, with people electing for a simplified account that treats each domain separately and tends to overlook the denser, mutually implicating facets, such as how understanding and the morphology of action underly word usage. I do not recall the word pairing, although there was one case I came across recently in which a subject name was explicitly hyphenated to accentuate the focus upon the dialectical relation between the two terms, rather than merely to label each domain that the subject touched upon. Best, Huw On Mon, 18 May 2020 at 19:03, WEBSTER, DAVID S. > wrote: No Helena it now needs to end for it cannot go anywhere else - What is the Ren-Gen project? ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Helena Worthen > Sent: 18 May 2020 17:15 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? This whole thread should be tagged and archived and linked to the Re-Gen project. H Helena Worthen helenaworthen.wordpress.com On May 17, 2020, at 5:34 PM, Martin Packer > wrote: That sounds pretty dire, Greg. On the positive side, the US national data show new cases have increased less than 2% each day for the past week. In Utah the figures have hovered around 2% daily during that time. In Colombia the official data show increases of 5% daily, and we have every reason to think they are strongly underreported. I still can?t predict what?s going to happen! ;) Martin On May 15, 2020, at 8:34 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: David, South Korea's "spike" in Covid-19 cases is America's early afternoon yawn. We are currently celebrating how we have "flattened the curve" since we are "down" around 25,000 new cases PER DAY, and the powers-that-be have decided that it is time to open everything back up (folks in my neighborhood are entirely back to normal life, no social distancing, no masks (Hitler), no precautions). SK hasn't even had that many cases since the beginning of the outbreak! By the numbers: SK:11K individuals infected and 260 dead U.S.: 1.4 million cases and about 88k dead (US population is about 6x that of SK). Rugged individualism indeed. -greg On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 5:46 PM David Kellogg > wrote: I don't think I would call Sorokin a "democratic socialist", Mike. He was a member of the Social Revolutionists--the "Narodniki" who tried to assassinate Lenin. But then he became a moral conservative, rather in the style of Solzhenitsyn, and apparently Mike Pence is really big on his writings; he claimed that Sorokin demonstrated that the collapse of civilizations follow directly on the collapse of "one man one woman" families. Au fait, we are having a bit of a spike in Covid 19 cases here in Seoul at present. For once it is not linked to churches but rather to clubhopping in Itaewon (where you can apparently buy a ticket to one club and get free drinks and free entry in another five). Clubbing, like choir practice, is very conducive to shouting in each other's faces. (So are families, though--some "cognitive deficits" are not even differences.) (Even I have mellowed as a result of the pandemic. I had to record a lecture yesterday and when I played it back I noticed that for the first time in my life I don't sound like I am addressing a charging battalion of riot police. But maybe that is just professorship and not prophylaxis....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!RUjDNbv2cgNhRR1qezvx4tvh2oKfZgkLUS-vfFNHoEMEXFwti4wq-fiqveNnGYXTgcWEZw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RUjDNbv2cgNhRR1qezvx4tvh2oKfZgkLUS-vfFNHoEMEXFwti4wq-fiqveNnGYWXqIFosQ$ On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 3:38 AM mike cole > wrote: I read your Sorokiin note out of order, David. So sociocultural has democratic socialist origins that map the discontent that emerged in Madrid. mike On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 9:20 AM WEBSTER, DAVID S. > wrote: Sorokin was also Prime Minister Kerensky's (Feb revolution) private secretary. After the October revolution he got involved in a bit of hapless counter-revolutionary activity and was condemned to the firing squad. Through the intervention of Lenin, Sorokin was offered a deal, as a prominent liberal figure. If he renounced, in an open published letter, his opposition to the Bolsheviks and made no further attacks, then he could take up his position as a sociologist at Moscow University. Lenin's logic was that Sorokin gave up his opposition, this would make it easier for other of the liberal/professionals to do likewise. Needless to say Sorokin kept up his criticism of the Bolsheviks but no action was taken against him. However when Lenin suffered a stroke and was in a coma, Sorokin, wisely, took himself and family off to America. ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Greg Thompson > Sent: 15 May 2020 15:48 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? Mike, Just wondering if you ever heard of Pitirim Alexandrovich Sorokin's (Sociology, Harvard) use of "sociocultural" pre-WWII? Any recollections? -greg (and in case anyone is interested in this Russian-born interdisciplinary sociologist who became the first head of the Sociology Department at Harvard (and used the term "sociocultural" in 1937): https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.suz.uzh.ch/dam/jcr:00000000-36d7-41d4-0000-000064b51e55/simpson_sorokin.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!RUjDNbv2cgNhRR1qezvx4tvh2oKfZgkLUS-vfFNHoEMEXFwti4wq-fiqveNnGYUoYaKIfQ$ ) On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:20 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Mike tells me that my account is indeed "pretty muddled," so please do not quote anything from that email, and do not ascribe any of it to Mike. The chapter Mike sent around, and Jim Wertsch's book, are the places to go for reliable information. Sorry. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 15/05/2020 11:24 am, Andy Blunden wrote: In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. Jim Wertsch said: Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? or ?cultural-historical.? Mike Cole told me: In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: I should have reported progress with my question. Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin referred to on his academia.edu page for us all to read. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!RUjDNbv2cgNhRR1qezvx4tvh2oKfZgkLUS-vfFNHoEMEXFwti4wq-fiqveNnGYVr8n61Yw$ As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the components more than others and he was acting nominally as a psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these components. I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. Chuck ---- ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. History will judge. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!RUjDNbv2cgNhRR1qezvx4tvh2oKfZgkLUS-vfFNHoEMEXFwti4wq-fiqveNnGYXt7YIVIg$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!RUjDNbv2cgNhRR1qezvx4tvh2oKfZgkLUS-vfFNHoEMEXFwti4wq-fiqveNnGYVHO_T3oA$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!RUjDNbv2cgNhRR1qezvx4tvh2oKfZgkLUS-vfFNHoEMEXFwti4wq-fiqveNnGYWGKqQczQ$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!RUjDNbv2cgNhRR1qezvx4tvh2oKfZgkLUS-vfFNHoEMEXFwti4wq-fiqveNnGYXvg-BISw$ "Pros and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so sure the cons outweigh the pros here. But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm more outsider than insider and don't really know. Thank you for any insight. Anthony On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer > wrote: I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their view it?s the best term: Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). Sociocultural studies of mind. Cambridge University Press. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action" published by Harvard University Press in 1991. Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and artefacts mediating action. Thanks again to all Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: Andy-- Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!RUjDNbv2cgNhRR1qezvx4tvh2oKfZgkLUS-vfFNHoEMEXFwti4wq-fiqveNnGYXhH8OXfg$ Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the years you'll get better granularity in the document search. On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. dk David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!RUjDNbv2cgNhRR1qezvx4tvh2oKfZgkLUS-vfFNHoEMEXFwti4wq-fiqveNnGYXTgcWEZw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RUjDNbv2cgNhRR1qezvx4tvh2oKfZgkLUS-vfFNHoEMEXFwti4wq-fiqveNnGYWXqIFosQ$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer > wrote: The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in English is this: A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use the term ?sociocultural? frequently. The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study of the Mexican. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: Andy: I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but here's what I got. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!RUjDNbv2cgNhRR1qezvx4tvh2oKfZgkLUS-vfFNHoEMEXFwti4wq-fiqveNnGYXhbgpsnw$ " width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 frameborder=0 scrolling=no So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after 1992 is Vygotsky though. Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!RUjDNbv2cgNhRR1qezvx4tvh2oKfZgkLUS-vfFNHoEMEXFwti4wq-fiqveNnGYXTgcWEZw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RUjDNbv2cgNhRR1qezvx4tvh2oKfZgkLUS-vfFNHoEMEXFwti4wq-fiqveNnGYWXqIFosQ$ On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" originated? Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!RUjDNbv2cgNhRR1qezvx4tvh2oKfZgkLUS-vfFNHoEMEXFwti4wq-fiqveNnGYW_cTnstw$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!RUjDNbv2cgNhRR1qezvx4tvh2oKfZgkLUS-vfFNHoEMEXFwti4wq-fiqveNnGYXyZ9WTxg$ -- ?It is education which should play the central role in the transformation of man - this road of conscious social formation of new generations, the basic form to alter the historical human type. New generations and new forms of their education represent the main route which history will follow whilst creating the new type of man. Vygotsky (1932?; 1994, p.81). --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For archival materials and a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!RUjDNbv2cgNhRR1qezvx4tvh2oKfZgkLUS-vfFNHoEMEXFwti4wq-fiqveNnGYW_cTnstw$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!RUjDNbv2cgNhRR1qezvx4tvh2oKfZgkLUS-vfFNHoEMEXFwti4wq-fiqveNnGYXyZ9WTxg$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200519/8060bb87/attachment.html From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Tue May 19 09:04:02 2020 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 17:04:02 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] remote_online learning? Message-ID: Greetings Xmca-ers I would like to raise a question. In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening recently: "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks after that article appeared, he described the ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the country had been forced to cobble together during this public health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!VRgkzssOuSyNvpVQWR2QH7dShhiXD5eWtYs2HahNwv_pKUU7G9GOQZMrzIpGsa-SnnFGDg$ Just asking Tom Richardson Middlesbrough UK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200519/8c139297/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Tue May 19 09:37:20 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 12:37:20 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting question! Instead of being useful by contributing a productive answer, I'll pose a tiny, off-topic, rhetorical question just as a fun little game: what would the headline be for the same article in seven other publications? (Stereotypes accepted!) 1. The Guardian - How big tech plans to profit from the pandemic (reprinted from The Intercept) 2. The Intercept - Screen New Deal: Under cover of mass death, Andrew Cuomo calls in the billionaires to build a high-tech dystopia 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. It's a very interesting topic, in my opinion, and not just because my current job might one day become obsolete. It's also interesting to note the early rhetorical framing that various organizations are already bringing to the topic (as they attempt to assign our opinions to us?). Sorry to side-step your interesting email, Tom! I'm sure others will respond to it productively, and I'm interested to hear what they'll say. Thanks, Anthony P.S. I kind of like this little assignment and will probably use it soon, as a collaborative task in my "distance learning" classroom : ) On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 12:07 PM Tom Richardson < tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > Greetings Xmca-ers > I would like to raise a question. > In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major > questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, > democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international > competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan > approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to > these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been > happening recently: > > > "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks > after that article appeared, he described > the > ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the > country had been forced to cobble together during this public health > emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. > > The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids > learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote > and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will > help kids learn better.? " > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!Sax7n0bw9ezhUamRDOxsSimESCmOSBm6wmHs7HyRau86HMy2ux-MUbdsZ99FrOlH71O4Wg$ > > > > Just asking > Tom Richardson > Middlesbrough UK > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200519/5b874e4a/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue May 19 09:46:02 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 09:46:02 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Tom Richardson This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat Project" that has just finished its planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human development, and theories of "Development in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most members of this discussion over the years, is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about for 100 years. Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing working models of effective practices that do NOT assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. Thanks for asking. mike On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson < tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > Greetings Xmca-ers > I would like to raise a question. > In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major > questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, > democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international > competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan > approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to > these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been > happening recently: > > > "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks > after that article appeared, he described > the > ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the > country had been forced to cobble together during this public health > emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. > > The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids > learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote > and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will > help kids learn better.? " > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!V4rtgUKjjshdiOxbIML_kuerunhUbHYomcCKiRVA5FkPs1WJIJwbuavyFoG613YInQsEtA$ > > > > Just asking > Tom Richardson > Middlesbrough UK > > -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200519/eee13abf/attachment.html From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Tue May 19 10:30:11 2020 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 18:30:11 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Anthony Have fun with that 'assignment' Best Tom On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 17:40, Anthony Barra wrote: > Interesting question! Instead of being useful by contributing a > productive answer, I'll pose a tiny, off-topic, rhetorical question just as > a fun little game: what would the headline be for the same article in seven > other publications? (Stereotypes accepted!) > 1. The Guardian - How big tech plans to profit from the pandemic > (reprinted from The Intercept) > 2. The Intercept - Screen New Deal: Under cover of mass death, Andrew > Cuomo calls in the billionaires to build a high-tech dystopia > 3. > 4. > 5. > 6. > 7. > 8. > > It's a very interesting topic, in my opinion, and not just because my > current job might one day become obsolete. It's also interesting to note > the early rhetorical framing that various organizations are already > bringing to the topic (as they attempt to assign our opinions to us?). > > Sorry to side-step your interesting email, Tom! I'm sure others will > respond to it productively, and I'm interested to hear what they'll say. > > Thanks, > > Anthony > > P.S. I kind of like this little assignment and will probably use it soon, > as a collaborative task in my "distance learning" classroom : ) > > > On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 12:07 PM Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > >> Greetings Xmca-ers >> I would like to raise a question. >> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major >> questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, >> democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international >> competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan >> approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to >> these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been >> happening recently: >> >> >> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks >> after that article appeared, he described >> the >> ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the >> country had been forced to cobble together during this public health >> emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. >> >> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do >> kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better >> remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? >> will help kids learn better.? " >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!VcnorHMEHobh1Yn91XMkJgrUfVslUxKhUfoHkH6IqErzg0P030HjxzHOWMR59lUhsq75lA$ >> >> >> >> Just asking >> Tom Richardson >> Middlesbrough UK >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200519/cff63a0b/attachment.html From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Tue May 19 10:37:57 2020 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 18:37:57 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mike Cole Thank you for your historically and intellectually copious reply. I shall go on listening to the Chat project and if I'm as curious as I could be, actually reading LVs work, and stop being a mere 'voyeur' of the social and intellectual interaction that has intrigued me for so long. Hey ho Best Tom BoWen On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 17:49, mike cole wrote: > Hello Tom Richardson > This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat > Project" that has just finished its > planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human > development, and theories of "Development > in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by > the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. > Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to > actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. > The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of > essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. > In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most > dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced > a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most > members of this discussion over the years, > is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations > have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting > a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). > > We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social > science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp > speed and its invisible. > > Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about > for 100 years. > Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing > working models of effective practices that do NOT > assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. > > Thanks for asking. > mike > > > > On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > >> Greetings Xmca-ers >> I would like to raise a question. >> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major >> questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, >> democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international >> competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan >> approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to >> these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been >> happening recently: >> >> >> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks >> after that article appeared, he described >> the >> ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the >> country had been forced to cobble together during this public health >> emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. >> >> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do >> kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better >> remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? >> will help kids learn better.? " >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!S8yVbF5guxTiMxKAlhjjQNezXxjzTcyezYfrM10Lya6khnKaWF3ltY383f9-vsBT5Bx8Ww$ >> >> >> >> Just asking >> Tom Richardson >> Middlesbrough UK >> >> > > -- > > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, > translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. > For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net > > . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200519/099f5e94/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Tue May 19 10:51:37 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 17:51:37 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: <36147263-58ba-6908-ce60-bc367719772e@marxists.org> References: <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> , <36147263-58ba-6908-ce60-bc367719772e@marxists.org> Message-ID: Hi Andy, I suppose the issue about being on a branch of evolution has more to do with who decides what the branch is. Is it time? or is it topical? or is it based upon the interlocutors? If we say one word usage is more "evolved" than another, I suppose I am just pushing back on that because who decides what is more evolved? Forgive me, but can we ever say that if something is more "evolved" it is actually better? What do we actually mean when we say something is evolved? What if one term lasts over a longer arc of time than another usage? It seems if we use the evolution rubric, it would be considered more "fit" than the one that is changing over the same period of time. I do find it helpful that you to bring up the germ cell and how that concept pertains to analysis. That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm glad to know that to assign the parentheses does entail an ideological move, and that that can't be escaped. As long as we know what the ideology is, there is transparency in our analysis. I do think moral evaluations are worth including on all discussions, not necessarily to forbid discussions or scientific pursuits, but to use as landmarks to keep our bearings. Scientific concepts have a way of not being inclusive of contexts (i.e., lived experiences) or being grounded, right? Perhaps this is what made Vygotsky such a humane and compassionate scientific thinker is that he could understand how scientific concepts can be abusive tools for oppression. Anchoring them in lived experience shows their validity. Would this be a fair statement to you, Andy? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:23 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] Annalisa, "where does history start"? Effectively there is no starting point, and the choosing of a starting point is always an ideological move. Foucault does this to great effect. Ilyenkov deals with this in his book "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's Capital" and explains the need for what he calls the "logical-historical method." To short circuit the complexities of reading Ilyenkov, in CHAT we rely on the identification of the unit of analysis or "germ cell" to anchor our historical investigation. "Sociogenesis" is just Latin for "social development," the word I used. But if you are going to ascribe a moral value to "evolution" and then reject the concept on that basis, you'd better also reject "development" and all the "geneses" and evolution of species by natural selection and all modern biology while you are at it. Alternatively, you could choose not to ascribe moral values to scientific concepts, then the whole of science is open to you. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 18/05/2020 3:25 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: Hi Andy (& VO's), I think that that was my point, that we cannot capture everything in the word to describe the theory. And that is because of the limit of our language. Even where genesis actually is, where something starts can be difficult to pinpoint. I mean where does History actually start? These words that you mention phylogenesis, ethnogenesis, ontogenesis, are words that are like brackets of a pair of parentheses. Who decides where to put them? (And why not sociogenesis?) I'm not sure it's correct to say the choice of a word locates the user on a branch of a cultural evolutionary tree, because then that starts to mean that one speaker is more evolved than another based on the use of a word. It might be better to say that the choice of a word locates the user to a particular context. I could live with that. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:27 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] You're never going to succeed in formally capturing the full scope of the theory in a word, Annalisa. "socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory" still leave out biology and Darwin, which is a part of our theory, too. It is sometimes said that human development is the coincidence of four processes: phylogenesis (i.e., evolution of the species), cultural development (ethnogenesis, the development of technology and language), social development (one and the same culture has different classes and political groups side by side) and ontogenesis (even twins can grow up very differently according to the experiences (perezhivaniya) they go through). I tried to describe this in: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/ontogenesis.htm__;!!Mih3wA!S33_Iy41h2UIwU3EX4uwSvkALMpuL5vSyUqoqYQNYCOFcd8onyQlCYG4MfvyeSBRVJO7Sw$ But if you look into the history of a word what you will inevitably find is that at some point (in time and social space) there was some dispute, and this dispute was either (1) resolved by both parties agreeing and marking this agreement by the coining of a new word meaning or the dropping of a word meaning altogether, or (2) there is a split and one or both sides of the split adopt a word meaning which distinguishes them from the other side (structuralism's favourite trope) or variations on the above scenarios. So the choice of a word tends to locate the user on a branch in the cultural evolutionary tree. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 17/05/2020 11:56 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: David K & VO's What pray-tell is an anthropologue? I am divided (pun intended) about saying that sociocultural = social + culture, when they are intertwined holistically. To me, sociocultural points to a space in between, or perhaps better said to a context of interactions between individuals (who form a society) that are easily accepted among them and practiced over time. We can conceptually parse out the social and the cultural, but don't we do that because of the words and not because of the ostensible reality going on interactionally? Can we always understand something by dissecting it into parts? Again, this seems to be the limit of language, not of the conceptual context or content. In a sense to use the term "sociocultural" is to grab the tail of the tiger. The tail of the tiger is still the tiger, but perhaps a more manageable one than to grab its head. Perhaps this is why Vygotskians just call themselves Vygotskians to align themselves with the source of the first theories rather than to later conceptions and other developments (i.e. Leontiev, etc). Just thinking out loud. Another argument is that if we want to be all inclusive, then we have to include tool-use, as it's not the social, the culture, and the history, but also the language and tools used. I realize some practitioners would say that language is no different than a tool, but I feel language is different, even though it may have a similar cognitive response in the mind as would using a tool. Activity suggests tool use, though not always. Consider dance, or storytelling, or going for a walk. How about: socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory??? Yes! I am writing this a little tongue in cheek. I hope you do not mind. Kind regards, Annalsia ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:14 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] It's a very domain-specific umbrella, like those cane-brollies that go with a bowler. "Sociocultural" is strongly preferred used in second language acquisition, thanks to the influence of Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf and Matthew Poehner; I have never seen "cultural historical" used in this literature. But "cultural-historical" is similarly preferred in psychology and anthropology, thanks to the influence of J.V. Wertsch, Mike Cole, Martin Packer and Andy Blunden; that's really why we are having this discussion on what "socio-cultural" might mean on a list largely populated by roving psychologists and nomadic anthropologues. Interestingly, the Francophones prefer "historico-cultural", using the argument that you can understand the process without the product but not the product without the process. I stopped using "sociocultural" because I thought it was redundant, but now I am really not sure of this: it seems to me that the relationship is a similar one--you can study society as process without studying its cultural product (e.g. as demographics, economics, statistics) but you can't really study culture without some understanding of the process of its formation. There was a similar disagreement in systemic functional linguistics between Halliday and Jim Martin over the term "socio-semiotic". Martin said that it was redundant, because there couldn't be any semiotic without society. Halliday rather flippantly replied that ants had a society without a semiotics, and at the time it seemed to me that this was a non sequitur, first of all because ants don't really have a society in our sense (precisely because there is no such thing as an ant history separate from phylogenesis on the one hand and ontogenesis on the other) and secondly because ants most definitely do have a semiotics, albeit one based on chemistry and not perception as ours is. It seems to me, in retrospect, that the relationship between the semiotic and the social is much more like the relationship between the social and the biological, or even the biological and the chemical. The semiotic is a certain level of organization that the social has, but there are other levels, just as biology is a certain kind of chemical organization which does not exclude other, nonbiological ways organizing chemicals, and chemistry is a kind of physical organization which doesn't exclude sub-chemical organizations. Perhaps we can think of the relationship between culture and society in the same way? David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!S33_Iy41h2UIwU3EX4uwSvkALMpuL5vSyUqoqYQNYCOFcd8onyQlCYG4MfvyeSCQFve1DQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!S33_Iy41h2UIwU3EX4uwSvkALMpuL5vSyUqoqYQNYCOFcd8onyQlCYG4MfvyeSCGfEbKhg$ On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David H Kirshner > wrote: 4. As an umbrella term for any sociogenetic approach. Isn?t that its current usage? David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? Hi Andy, and VO's, What fascinates me is that the word "sociocultural" has a lot of different facets in terms of how the word was used in different contexts. It seems there are three I've been able to pick out. 1. as a derisive term in early Soviet history. 2. as an empowering term from Latin American voices. 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist "brand" at the height of the Cold War in the US. I'm not sure if I've done justice in the manner that I've represented that, but it is a well-intended attempt. Are there others? What I don't understand fully is whether there must be ONE explanation how the term came to be, or ONE definition of what it actually means. Can't it be polysemantic? polycontextual? If that is what's happening, then it makes sense that there would be an ongoing controversy about which one is the right definition or reason for not using it, depending on the interlocutor. If we are to talk about who used the term first, and that's where the value/authority holds, then all that tells us is that for those who value who used the term first. that's where the authority is. If we talk about the emotional attachment of the word as it is used in context and that's where the value/authority holds, then that tells us for those who value the most personal attachment to the word, that's where the authority is. If we talk about how the word was used functionally, where the value/authority holds in its efficacy, then all that tells is that for those who value whether the word works or not, that's where the authority is. I'm not sure one can put any of one these over the other two (or if there are more than that, if there are more). All we can say I suppose is whether in a particular context is the word "sociocultural" appropriate or not? I do find that this debate has begun to have its own life, this debate over the use of a word. I've begun doubt it will ever cease. One day the discussion will be how one used to debate about the term, first everyone was this way about the word, than they were that way about the word, and many large camps were formed in XXXX year to say why the word should not be used, but then X years later other large camps formed to say it is fine to use the word. I suppose it will only be when the debate ceases will it come to pass that the debate will be forgotten. But will that cessation solidify the use or non-use of the word? I understand the reasons for saying "cultural psychology." But for those swimming in a culture where behaviorism is considered the soul of psychology, adding "cultural" becomes a sad necessity. Even then, that necessity only depends upon how one sees culture, as either as an additive, an integral ingredient of psychology, or its basis. I believe I've read on the list that one should be able to say "psychology" and just *know* that it includes culture. I don't think we are there yet. Then that would be my argument to use "sociocultural" to understand it includes history. CHAT is sort of a defensive term (well, it is an acronym). But then... it leaves out "social" and is that OK? We certainly should not say sociocultural historical activity theory because that acronym is very unfulfilling. What is nice about CHAT though is that to chat is an activity of speech, and there is a implied meaning that also pertains to Vygotskian theories, and therefore meaningful. In a sense, it's not the meaning that we are arguing over, but how the limitations of our particular language fails to convey a meaning with such precision that it thereby to parses away any other inappropriate meaning. I'm just not sure that the project is one that can be achieved successfully, even if it succeeds for an interim. At the same time I can see why story of the elephant and the blind men also have a part to play in our understandings and assumptions. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] Annalisa, I have only been talking and writing about Vygotsky and co. since about 2000 and have been openly Marxist since the 1960s (indeed, Vygotsky is core to how I understand Marx) and never had any reason not to be. But it is true that when Mike first went to Moscow, it was at the height of the Cold War, and when he and others first brought Vygotsky's ideas to the USA, there was a lot of resistance to their Marxist content. I think the naming issue only arose as Vygotsky and the others began to build a real following. The issues with the choice of name change over the years, as you say. I prefer" CHAT," but sometimes I use "Cultural Psychology" and sometimes I use "Activity Theory" depending on the context. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: Andy, et al, I sort of came to this a little late in the thread, but I can offer that Vera John-Steiner didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian theory, but as I learn more about the word (thank you Mike), I can see how once a word is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard for the association to be broken. I think it's that way with words all the time coming and going out of favor, or meanings shifting, like the game of telephone, but across generations and cultures. Might I contribute to the discussion by asking whether the use of "sociocultural" was also a means of making the theories more available in the West (at least in the US). It seems there was redscare (you are welcome read the double entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as you like) prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the Marxist "brand" to access the actual theories on child development? In other words, to depoliticize the science? I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but as time passes, I can see its problems. For me, I had preferred the word because historical was always a given for me. In concern of the here and now, the real difficulty I had thought was understanding the social- how interactions between the child and the caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the -cultural, how the culture impacts thought, those things are more of the micro level, but also sociocultural, how the two also can interact and influence one another and that combined bears its own signature on the mind and its development. As far as History (capital H) that is sort of difficult to measure when we are talking about child development as there is very little history that a child has, unless we are talking about genetics, I suppose. Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect and am enriched by the discourse in which we now we find ourselves immersed about it so thanks to all for this. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. Jim Wertsch said: Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? or ?cultural-historical.? Mike Cole told me: In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: I should have reported progress with my question. Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin referred to on his academia.edu page for us all to read. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!S33_Iy41h2UIwU3EX4uwSvkALMpuL5vSyUqoqYQNYCOFcd8onyQlCYG4MfvyeSDLNLusCw$ As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the components more than others and he was acting nominally as a psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these components. I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. Chuck ---- ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. History will judge. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!S33_Iy41h2UIwU3EX4uwSvkALMpuL5vSyUqoqYQNYCOFcd8onyQlCYG4MfvyeSBywirLew$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!S33_Iy41h2UIwU3EX4uwSvkALMpuL5vSyUqoqYQNYCOFcd8onyQlCYG4MfvyeSB89uvdPw$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!S33_Iy41h2UIwU3EX4uwSvkALMpuL5vSyUqoqYQNYCOFcd8onyQlCYG4MfvyeSBzp5Bg_g$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!S33_Iy41h2UIwU3EX4uwSvkALMpuL5vSyUqoqYQNYCOFcd8onyQlCYG4MfvyeSC9fCM5xg$ "Pros and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so sure the cons outweigh the pros here. But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm more outsider than insider and don't really know. Thank you for any insight. Anthony On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer > wrote: I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their view it?s the best term: Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). Sociocultural studies of mind. Cambridge University Press. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action" published by Harvard University Press in 1991. Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and artefacts mediating action. Thanks again to all Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: Andy-- Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!S33_Iy41h2UIwU3EX4uwSvkALMpuL5vSyUqoqYQNYCOFcd8onyQlCYG4MfvyeSBj51O6cg$ Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the years you'll get better granularity in the document search. On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. dk David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!S33_Iy41h2UIwU3EX4uwSvkALMpuL5vSyUqoqYQNYCOFcd8onyQlCYG4MfvyeSCQFve1DQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!S33_Iy41h2UIwU3EX4uwSvkALMpuL5vSyUqoqYQNYCOFcd8onyQlCYG4MfvyeSCGfEbKhg$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer > wrote: The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in English is this: A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use the term ?sociocultural? frequently. The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study of the Mexican. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: Andy: I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but here's what I got. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!S33_Iy41h2UIwU3EX4uwSvkALMpuL5vSyUqoqYQNYCOFcd8onyQlCYG4MfvyeSCtvQzQJw$ " width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 frameborder=0 scrolling=no So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after 1992 is Vygotsky though. Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!S33_Iy41h2UIwU3EX4uwSvkALMpuL5vSyUqoqYQNYCOFcd8onyQlCYG4MfvyeSCQFve1DQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!S33_Iy41h2UIwU3EX4uwSvkALMpuL5vSyUqoqYQNYCOFcd8onyQlCYG4MfvyeSCGfEbKhg$ On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" originated? Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200519/532577f8/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue May 19 10:57:34 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 10:57:34 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tom- Young note just happened to hit my funny bone, and the words spilled out. The more people who are willing to use this crisis to help understand what possible new forms of education could create next generations able to flourish in 2030, the better, Tom. Better to think of it as an open field than a brick wall. There are people writing on culturalpraxis who have started the process. mike On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 10:41 AM Tom Richardson < tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > Hi Mike Cole > Thank you for your historically and intellectually copious reply. > I shall go on listening to the Chat project and if I'm as curious as I > could be, actually reading LVs work, and stop being a mere 'voyeur' of the > social and intellectual interaction that has intrigued me for so long. > Hey ho > Best > Tom > > > BoWen > > > On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 17:49, mike cole wrote: > >> Hello Tom Richardson >> This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat >> Project" that has just finished its >> planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human >> development, and theories of "Development >> in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced >> by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. >> Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to >> actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. >> The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of >> essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. >> In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most >> dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced >> a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most >> members of this discussion over the years, >> is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations >> have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting >> a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). >> >> We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social >> science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp >> speed and its invisible. >> >> Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about >> for 100 years. >> Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start >> providing working models of effective practices that do NOT >> assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. >> >> Thanks for asking. >> mike >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson < >> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: >> >>> Greetings Xmca-ers >>> I would like to raise a question. >>> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major >>> questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, >>> democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international >>> competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan >>> approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to >>> these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been >>> happening recently: >>> >>> >>> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks >>> after that article appeared, he described >>> the >>> ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the >>> country had been forced to cobble together during this public health >>> emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. >>> >>> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do >>> kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better >>> remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? >>> will help kids learn better.? " >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!RBUVfeKgIkRZBMKvlCZK5BY_Un7M6KYzxsJEz5KOvLWR9-xV2uvzdb977BGkPRH6difkdw$ >>> >>> >>> >>> Just asking >>> Tom Richardson >>> Middlesbrough UK >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, >> translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >> --------------------------------------------------- >> For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. >> For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net >> >> . >> >> >> -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!RBUVfeKgIkRZBMKvlCZK5BY_Un7M6KYzxsJEz5KOvLWR9-xV2uvzdb977BGkPRGmg8Ap4w$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200519/d0f4abf3/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Tue May 19 12:13:59 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 19:13:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Wittgenstein's Remarks on Frazier In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi David (and VO's) --- and Andy B down below... I am glad that you can read. I did not ever think that you could not. It seems we are in agreement about where one places authority and value. As far as the history of this thread... I really do not know what to make of this "argument" about the existence of Druids. I was merely saying that there are many ancient cultures of which we know little about. Of all the ones I mentioned you picked Druids to make into a controversy, only you know why and haven't really shed light upon that. We are here because you objected to them existing, as I can gather, because there is not sufficient archeological evidence to say so. Unless I am mistaken. That you put so much force to it (in terms of amount of typing) means something is going on that I believe has nothing to do with me. Where you say: "Regarding folklore, Collingwood was proposing a new mode of archaeology which studies fragments of customs and beliefs (as opposed to fragments of material things) handed down in traditional stories; that themes found in fairy-tales are organically connected the customs and beliefs of the people who originate them." Isn't this what anthropology is? But thanks for those other explanations. I may look up those authors one day. Where you say: Apropos your question to Andy Blunden re pertaining to a culture, a society, a language, or history, or tool - Do these items have no ability to form or influence thought in the development of an individual? Well the answer is undoubtedly so. I see Andy has offered his own answer but surely that should have included Vygotsky point that enculturation proceeds from society to the individual child. The problem, which you offer no help with (or have I missed this bit?), is how best to understand how enculturation, in all its modes, goes through. I'm afraid that you have mis-explained my question, and thereby have come up with what might be a wrong conclusion. It's certainly not what I had in mind. So let me try again... In the quote from W: "That a human shadow, which looks like a human being, or one?s mirror image, that rain, thunderstorms, the phases of the moon, the change of seasons, the likeness or difference of animals to one another and to human beings, the phenomenon of death, of birth, and of sexual life, in short, everything that a human being senses around himself, year in, year out, in manifold mutual connection..." I was holding up for example and posing my question to Andy B, how do we equate the human shadow one's mirror image rain thunderstorms phases of the moon change of seasons likeness/difference of animals to one another likeness/difference of animals to human beings the phenomenon of death the phenomenon of birth the phenomenon of sexual life to a culture, a society, a language, or history, or tool. In other words, some of these items, if not all, on this list seem to defy these categorizations. I apologize for not making that connection more explicit. I did not ever mean to say that these items could not influence the individual. I regret this was not clear to you. Given your mention of rhetorical smoke screens, and when you say The problem, which you offer no help with (or have I missed this bit?), is how best to understand how enculturation, in all its modes, goes through. just shows yourself as not understanding this list as a place of discussion for many others, but instead fulfilling some other need in you. I attempted to take your "contribution" about Druids at face value, but at this point I can't any more, because it seems more that you wish to censor, or is it ridicule? I have never seen any value for those who have the need to QUALIFY and EXPLAIN the posts of others. I'm here and I can speak for myself. I'm certain Andy can also for himself. I would venture to guess that this is the very argument Wittgenstein had with Frazier, except that he was not speaking of posters on listservs, but to religious ritual. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 6:18 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Wittgenstein's Remarks on Frazier [EXTERNAL] Dear Annalisa, be assured that I am not misunderstanding Wittgenstein?s intent with regard to Frazer ? if only because he plainly states (and I can read you know) at the beginning of his remarks that Frazer?s account is unsatisfactory (and see below), and that one must find the path from error to truth. And again, to be clear, whether I believe in Druids, or Covid19 for that matter, is a matter of whose testimony one trusts and the experiential consequences, if any, thereof. Druids carry none of the latter; their existence I can live with and as to whatever is claimed of their beliefs and customs, and skills, I am happy to be agnostic. As for the existence and experiential consequences of Covid19 I am ? dare I say ? rational enough not to be agnostic at all. So, putting aside your rhetorical smoke screens let us try and find some common ground. Apropos your comment that Wittgenstein at the end of his life reacquainted himself with a spiritual life, You might have a look (if you have not already) at Russell Nieli?s Wittgenstein: From Mysticism to Ordinary Language 1987, State University of New York Press. A somewhat iconoclastic [?] treatment of Wittgenstein, but worth a read. Another philosopher hero of mine is the eminent Philosopher of History and Archaeologist, Robin George Collingwood (1889-1943). As it happens Collingwood did considered folk-tales as historical evidence (see R G Collingwood, 2004, The Philosophy of Enchantment, Studies in Folktale, Cultural Criticism and Anthropology (David Boucher, Wendy James, and Philip Smallwood, Eds.), and Collingwood was a member of the Folklore Society (joined 1936). The aforementioned book is Collingwood?s hitherto unpublished manuscripts ? essays for the Folklore Society. In addition, in his day, Collingwood was the foremost authority on Roman Britain - the history and archaeology thereof. With regard to the Druids, and in the same year Collingwood joined the Folklore Society, Collingwood wrote ? in a wonderfully dramatic narrative style, long-since frowned upon ? that: Paulinus [Roman Governor] by 61 [AD] had reached the Menai Straights and in that year, he proposed to conquer Anglesey [reputed Druid stronghold]?His crossing was opposed by a strange and awe-inspiring assembly. Among the groups of warriors women in ceremonial dress bearing lighted torches, ran hither and thither; behind them were druids, standing by the fires of human sacrifice, their hands raised in prayer for help against the invaders. The Romans at first shrank from so weird a sight; then recollecting themselves, leapt ashore, fell upon warriors, priest, and women indiscriminately, cut them down, and flung them into their own fires. It was not a battle but a massacre (Collingwood & Myres 1936, Roman Britain and The English Settlements p.99). Thus, a renowned historical scholar schooled in Greek and Latin from an early age (five and six respectively), who had read and studied Tacitus and Caesar etc., in their original Latin (all there is on druids as per the Romans but there is some 7th century Irish sources pertaining to Druids ? ? in The Book of Armagh); and the foremost scholar of Roman Epigraphy in Britain; and was sympathetic to the use of folklore in historical recounting, only found it worth stating about the druids that they got themselves massacred in Anglesey in 61AD. Regarding folklore, Collingwood was proposing a new mode of archaeology which studies fragments of customs and beliefs (as opposed to fragments of material things) handed down in traditional stories; that themes found in fairy-tales are organically connected the customs and beliefs of the people who originate them. Collingwood proposed that there had hitherto been three approaches to folklore: 1) that of Grimm and of Max Muller which was philological; 2) that of Tylor and of Frazer which was functional; 3) that of Freud and of Jung which was psychological. All three approaches were wrong because they were naturalistic, i.e. folklore was to be contemplated from without, as mythopoetic (Muller), as folly (Frazer), or as neurosis (Freud). In contradistinction Collingwood held that such tales should be viewed with respect to their relation to one?s own, and or one?s culture?s self-understanding as reflected in literature, ? Collingwood?s father William G Collingwood (and Private Secretary to John Ruskin) wrote a story for his children titled Thorstein of the Mere which wove together the Viking-based folktales of the Lake District where they lived. The children were then expected to make papia mashie and chicken wire versions of the hills and dales where the events of the story took place. Apropos your question to Andy Blunden re pertaining to a culture, a society, a language, or history, or tool - Do these items have no ability to form or influence thought in the development of an individual? Well the answer is undoubtedly so. I see Andy has offered his own answer but surely that should have included Vygotsky point that enculturation proceeds from society to the individual child. The problem, which you offer no help with (or have I missed this bit?), is how best to understand how enculturation, in all its modes, goes through. Regards David ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 17 May 2020 20:35 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Wittgenstein's Remarks on Frazier Hi David W and also venerable others (and also to Andy farther down below), [Note: I decided to create a new thread from what was the thread: Heartening news in Kerala] I'm not sure that you understand what Wittgenstein intended in his remarks. He took exception to Frazier's "explanations." I think you misunderstand his project. Wittgenstein at the end of his life reacquainted himself with a spiritual life, i.e., he valued ritual. I think his objection to Frazier is illustrated (not explained) here: "Already the idea of explaining the practice?say the killing of the priest king?seems to me wrong-headed. All that Frazer does is to make the practice plausible to those who think like him. It is very strange to present all these practices, in the end, so to speak, as foolishness. "But it never does become plausible that people do all this out of sheer stupidity. "When he explains to us, for example, that the king would have to be killed in his prime because, according to the notions of the savages, his soul would otherwise not be kept fresh, then one can only say: where that practice and these notions go together, there the practice does not spring from the notion; instead they are simply both present. "It could well be, and often occurs today, that someone gives up a practice after having realized an error that this practice depended on. But then again, this case holds only when it is enough to make someone aware of his error so as to dissuade him from his mode of action. But surely, this is not the case with the religious practices of a people, and that is why we are not dealing with an error here." (pg 142, Mythology in our Language: Wittgenstein's Remarks on Frazier's Golden Bough) ==== You had written: Apropos Wittgenstein on Frazer 'It was not a trivial reason, for in reality there can be no reason, that prompted certain races of mankind to venerate the oak tree, but only the fact that they and the oak were united in a community of life, and that they arose together not by chance but rather like the flea and the dog (If fleas developed a right, it would be based on the dog).' And ' but what I see in those stories is nevertheless acquired by the evidence, including such evidence as does not appear to be directly connected with them, - through the thoughts of man and his past, through all the strange things I see, and have seen and heard about, in myself and others.' In your supplied quote, isn't W saying that we can't say that there is a connection where it may just be happenstance of life. That (Frazier's) need for explanation is ill-placed. Some things can just be. W uses example of the ellipse and the circle. Just because we can see their commonality in form, does not mean that the ellipse "developed" from the circle, or vice versa. All we can say is that they share attributes. There is no need for any explanation, and if there is, it says more about us than about the reality about which we hope to explain. I find it hard to believe that the Druids are just a flight of fancy, a wish, like Santa Claus, which still was based upon a real historical person. Just because I mention Santa Claus, doesn't mean I BELIEVE in Santa Claus, but I do believe there was a person from which these folk stories generated. Is that the belief that you speak about? Do I need hard facts to be allowed to discuss Santa Claus on this list? If the Druids are simply made up, then why did the Romans erect laws forbidding their practices? (Which apparently involved human sacrifice) Why are they mentioned in long traditions in folk stories in various different cultures? I'm just not sure why it has invoked such an "anti-druid" response in you. The Cathars did not seem to do that for you, another group of people who were little understood and what little we know was also set down by their persecutors. Must I also say that they did not exist as well? ----- I also saw this note and thought it might pertain to the earlier discussion on the word "sociocultural": "That a human shadow, which looks like a human being, or one?s mirror image, that rain, thunderstorms, the phases of the moon, the change of seasons, the likeness or difference of animals to one another and to human beings, the phenomenon of death, of birth, and of sexual life, in short, everything that a human being senses around himself, year in, year out, in manifold mutual connection? *that all this should play a role in the thought of human beings (their philosophy) and in their practices is self-evident;* or, in other words, it is what we really know and find interesting. (my emphasis) "How could the fire or the fire?s resemblance to the sun have failed to make an impression on the awakening mind of man? But not perhaps 'because he can?t explain it to himself' (the stupid superstition of our time)?for does an 'explanation' make it less impressive??" (pg 40, Mythology in our Language: Wittgenstein's Remarks on Frazier's Golden Bough) And thus I come to the question for Andy: do the items, that W lists in the first paragraph of the quote above, pertain to a culture, a society, a language, or history, or tool? Do these items have no ability to form or influence thought in the development of an individual? If they do, how do they relate to Vygotskian/CHAT theories? If they do not, why not? Kind regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200519/a1ab1792/attachment.html From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Tue May 19 12:14:06 2020 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 20:14:06 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ??? BoWen On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 19:00, mike cole wrote: > Tom- Young note just happened to hit my funny bone, and the words > spilled out. > The more people who are willing to use this crisis to help understand what > possible new forms of > education could create next generations able to flourish in 2030, the > better, Tom. Better to think of > it as an open field than a brick wall. There are people writing on > culturalpraxis who have started the > process. > mike > > > On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 10:41 AM Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Mike Cole >> Thank you for your historically and intellectually copious reply. >> I shall go on listening to the Chat project and if I'm as curious as I >> could be, actually reading LVs work, and stop being a mere 'voyeur' of the >> social and intellectual interaction that has intrigued me for so long. >> Hey ho >> Best >> Tom >> >> >> BoWen >> >> >> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 17:49, mike cole wrote: >> >>> Hello Tom Richardson >>> This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat >>> Project" that has just finished its >>> planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human >>> development, and theories of "Development >>> in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced >>> by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. >>> Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as >>> to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. >>> The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of >>> essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. >>> In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the >>> most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced >>> a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of >>> most members of this discussion over the years, >>> is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations >>> have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting >>> a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). >>> >>> We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social >>> science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp >>> speed and its invisible. >>> >>> Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about >>> for 100 years. >>> Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start >>> providing working models of effective practices that do NOT >>> assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. >>> >>> Thanks for asking. >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson < >>> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Greetings Xmca-ers >>>> I would like to raise a question. >>>> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major >>>> questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, >>>> democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international >>>> competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan >>>> approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to >>>> these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been >>>> happening recently: >>>> >>>> >>>> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks >>>> after that article appeared, he described >>>> the >>>> ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the >>>> country had been forced to cobble together during this public health >>>> emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. >>>> >>>> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do >>>> kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better >>>> remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? >>>> will help kids learn better.? " >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!SEEzTdFMrsTAMQ2EXNLg4H3WBPCkKY3uhVzFybWnD8Zrv9Ws3sccvNoZ8wFRbJl8V1FdJA$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Just asking >>>> Tom Richardson >>>> Middlesbrough UK >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what >>> fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. >>> For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>> For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net >>> >>> . >>> >>> >>> > > -- > > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, > translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!SEEzTdFMrsTAMQ2EXNLg4H3WBPCkKY3uhVzFybWnD8Zrv9Ws3sccvNoZ8wFRbJmxAt_JRg$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200519/a91eda21/attachment.html From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Tue May 19 12:21:10 2020 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 20:21:10 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike - thank you again - particularly for access to the culturalpraxis site - I can read now Andy Blunden's "The coronavirus pandemic is a world perezhivanie." It will / should allow me to understand the perezhivanie wordfactexperience in a way that I hadn't picked up on so far. Best Tom BoWen On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 19:00, mike cole wrote: > Tom- Young note just happened to hit my funny bone, and the words > spilled out. > The more people who are willing to use this crisis to help understand what > possible new forms of > education could create next generations able to flourish in 2030, the > better, Tom. Better to think of > it as an open field than a brick wall. There are people writing on > culturalpraxis who have started the > process. > mike > > > On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 10:41 AM Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Mike Cole >> Thank you for your historically and intellectually copious reply. >> I shall go on listening to the Chat project and if I'm as curious as I >> could be, actually reading LVs work, and stop being a mere 'voyeur' of the >> social and intellectual interaction that has intrigued me for so long. >> Hey ho >> Best >> Tom >> >> >> BoWen >> >> >> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 17:49, mike cole wrote: >> >>> Hello Tom Richardson >>> This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat >>> Project" that has just finished its >>> planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human >>> development, and theories of "Development >>> in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced >>> by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. >>> Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as >>> to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. >>> The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of >>> essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. >>> In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the >>> most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced >>> a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of >>> most members of this discussion over the years, >>> is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations >>> have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting >>> a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). >>> >>> We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social >>> science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp >>> speed and its invisible. >>> >>> Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about >>> for 100 years. >>> Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start >>> providing working models of effective practices that do NOT >>> assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. >>> >>> Thanks for asking. >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson < >>> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Greetings Xmca-ers >>>> I would like to raise a question. >>>> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major >>>> questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, >>>> democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international >>>> competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan >>>> approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to >>>> these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been >>>> happening recently: >>>> >>>> >>>> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks >>>> after that article appeared, he described >>>> the >>>> ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the >>>> country had been forced to cobble together during this public health >>>> emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. >>>> >>>> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do >>>> kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better >>>> remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? >>>> will help kids learn better.? " >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!T12x_u95bIxYcksCKlMgLU4qYgGgx-cqrBcR_uu5Yn5Am0O9OMOc1sxghV0UVmwgfQCRFA$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Just asking >>>> Tom Richardson >>>> Middlesbrough UK >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what >>> fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. >>> For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>> For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net >>> >>> . >>> >>> >>> > > -- > > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, > translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!T12x_u95bIxYcksCKlMgLU4qYgGgx-cqrBcR_uu5Yn5Am0O9OMOc1sxghV0UVmxZ-rtK9A$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200519/7031b4c5/attachment.html From d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk Tue May 19 13:38:40 2020 From: d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk (WEBSTER, DAVID S.) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 20:38:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Wittgenstein's Remarks on Frazier In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Hello once more - got to agree with you that there are lots of ancient cultures we know little about. Re shadows, mirror images and the rest of your categories I have absolutely no problem with these at all. I of course cannot vouch for other on the list. As for Druids, well I suppose I am a bit sensitive or touchy due to being regularly told (usually in the pub) by all and sundry about any topic remotely to do with archaeology and particularly when 'shades' of shamanism are concerned: not a matter of ridicule or censor, but reasoned/reasonable constraint with regard to knowledgeable claims. As you say, there are a lots of ancient cultures we no little about, and what we do know, truth to tell, we really don't. Do I have a need fulfilling? Dare say I do. Time to move on. Regards David ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 19 May 2020 19:13 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Wittgenstein's Remarks on Frazier Hi David (and VO's) --- and Andy B down below... I am glad that you can read. I did not ever think that you could not. It seems we are in agreement about where one places authority and value. As far as the history of this thread... I really do not know what to make of this "argument" about the existence of Druids. I was merely saying that there are many ancient cultures of which we know little about. Of all the ones I mentioned you picked Druids to make into a controversy, only you know why and haven't really shed light upon that. We are here because you objected to them existing, as I can gather, because there is not sufficient archeological evidence to say so. Unless I am mistaken. That you put so much force to it (in terms of amount of typing) means something is going on that I believe has nothing to do with me. Where you say: "Regarding folklore, Collingwood was proposing a new mode of archaeology which studies fragments of customs and beliefs (as opposed to fragments of material things) handed down in traditional stories; that themes found in fairy-tales are organically connected the customs and beliefs of the people who originate them." Isn't this what anthropology is? But thanks for those other explanations. I may look up those authors one day. Where you say: Apropos your question to Andy Blunden re pertaining to a culture, a society, a language, or history, or tool - Do these items have no ability to form or influence thought in the development of an individual? Well the answer is undoubtedly so. I see Andy has offered his own answer but surely that should have included Vygotsky point that enculturation proceeds from society to the individual child. The problem, which you offer no help with (or have I missed this bit?), is how best to understand how enculturation, in all its modes, goes through. I'm afraid that you have mis-explained my question, and thereby have come up with what might be a wrong conclusion. It's certainly not what I had in mind. So let me try again... In the quote from W: "That a human shadow, which looks like a human being, or one?s mirror image, that rain, thunderstorms, the phases of the moon, the change of seasons, the likeness or difference of animals to one another and to human beings, the phenomenon of death, of birth, and of sexual life, in short, everything that a human being senses around himself, year in, year out, in manifold mutual connection..." I was holding up for example and posing my question to Andy B, how do we equate the human shadow one's mirror image rain thunderstorms phases of the moon change of seasons likeness/difference of animals to one another likeness/difference of animals to human beings the phenomenon of death the phenomenon of birth the phenomenon of sexual life to a culture, a society, a language, or history, or tool. In other words, some of these items, if not all, on this list seem to defy these categorizations. I apologize for not making that connection more explicit. I did not ever mean to say that these items could not influence the individual. I regret this was not clear to you. Given your mention of rhetorical smoke screens, and when you say The problem, which you offer no help with (or have I missed this bit?), is how best to understand how enculturation, in all its modes, goes through. just shows yourself as not understanding this list as a place of discussion for many others, but instead fulfilling some other need in you. I attempted to take your "contribution" about Druids at face value, but at this point I can't any more, because it seems more that you wish to censor, or is it ridicule? I have never seen any value for those who have the need to QUALIFY and EXPLAIN the posts of others. I'm here and I can speak for myself. I'm certain Andy can also for himself. I would venture to guess that this is the very argument Wittgenstein had with Frazier, except that he was not speaking of posters on listservs, but to religious ritual. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 6:18 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Wittgenstein's Remarks on Frazier [EXTERNAL] Dear Annalisa, be assured that I am not misunderstanding Wittgenstein?s intent with regard to Frazer ? if only because he plainly states (and I can read you know) at the beginning of his remarks that Frazer?s account is unsatisfactory (and see below), and that one must find the path from error to truth. And again, to be clear, whether I believe in Druids, or Covid19 for that matter, is a matter of whose testimony one trusts and the experiential consequences, if any, thereof. Druids carry none of the latter; their existence I can live with and as to whatever is claimed of their beliefs and customs, and skills, I am happy to be agnostic. As for the existence and experiential consequences of Covid19 I am ? dare I say ? rational enough not to be agnostic at all. So, putting aside your rhetorical smoke screens let us try and find some common ground. Apropos your comment that Wittgenstein at the end of his life reacquainted himself with a spiritual life, You might have a look (if you have not already) at Russell Nieli?s Wittgenstein: From Mysticism to Ordinary Language 1987, State University of New York Press. A somewhat iconoclastic [?] treatment of Wittgenstein, but worth a read. Another philosopher hero of mine is the eminent Philosopher of History and Archaeologist, Robin George Collingwood (1889-1943). As it happens Collingwood did considered folk-tales as historical evidence (see R G Collingwood, 2004, The Philosophy of Enchantment, Studies in Folktale, Cultural Criticism and Anthropology (David Boucher, Wendy James, and Philip Smallwood, Eds.), and Collingwood was a member of the Folklore Society (joined 1936). The aforementioned book is Collingwood?s hitherto unpublished manuscripts ? essays for the Folklore Society. In addition, in his day, Collingwood was the foremost authority on Roman Britain - the history and archaeology thereof. With regard to the Druids, and in the same year Collingwood joined the Folklore Society, Collingwood wrote ? in a wonderfully dramatic narrative style, long-since frowned upon ? that: Paulinus [Roman Governor] by 61 [AD] had reached the Menai Straights and in that year, he proposed to conquer Anglesey [reputed Druid stronghold]?His crossing was opposed by a strange and awe-inspiring assembly. Among the groups of warriors women in ceremonial dress bearing lighted torches, ran hither and thither; behind them were druids, standing by the fires of human sacrifice, their hands raised in prayer for help against the invaders. The Romans at first shrank from so weird a sight; then recollecting themselves, leapt ashore, fell upon warriors, priest, and women indiscriminately, cut them down, and flung them into their own fires. It was not a battle but a massacre (Collingwood & Myres 1936, Roman Britain and The English Settlements p.99). Thus, a renowned historical scholar schooled in Greek and Latin from an early age (five and six respectively), who had read and studied Tacitus and Caesar etc., in their original Latin (all there is on druids as per the Romans but there is some 7th century Irish sources pertaining to Druids ? ? in The Book of Armagh); and the foremost scholar of Roman Epigraphy in Britain; and was sympathetic to the use of folklore in historical recounting, only found it worth stating about the druids that they got themselves massacred in Anglesey in 61AD. Regarding folklore, Collingwood was proposing a new mode of archaeology which studies fragments of customs and beliefs (as opposed to fragments of material things) handed down in traditional stories; that themes found in fairy-tales are organically connected the customs and beliefs of the people who originate them. Collingwood proposed that there had hitherto been three approaches to folklore: 1) that of Grimm and of Max Muller which was philological; 2) that of Tylor and of Frazer which was functional; 3) that of Freud and of Jung which was psychological. All three approaches were wrong because they were naturalistic, i.e. folklore was to be contemplated from without, as mythopoetic (Muller), as folly (Frazer), or as neurosis (Freud). In contradistinction Collingwood held that such tales should be viewed with respect to their relation to one?s own, and or one?s culture?s self-understanding as reflected in literature, ? Collingwood?s father William G Collingwood (and Private Secretary to John Ruskin) wrote a story for his children titled Thorstein of the Mere which wove together the Viking-based folktales of the Lake District where they lived. The children were then expected to make papia mashie and chicken wire versions of the hills and dales where the events of the story took place. Apropos your question to Andy Blunden re pertaining to a culture, a society, a language, or history, or tool - Do these items have no ability to form or influence thought in the development of an individual? Well the answer is undoubtedly so. I see Andy has offered his own answer but surely that should have included Vygotsky point that enculturation proceeds from society to the individual child. The problem, which you offer no help with (or have I missed this bit?), is how best to understand how enculturation, in all its modes, goes through. Regards David ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 17 May 2020 20:35 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Wittgenstein's Remarks on Frazier Hi David W and also venerable others (and also to Andy farther down below), [Note: I decided to create a new thread from what was the thread: Heartening news in Kerala] I'm not sure that you understand what Wittgenstein intended in his remarks. He took exception to Frazier's "explanations." I think you misunderstand his project. Wittgenstein at the end of his life reacquainted himself with a spiritual life, i.e., he valued ritual. I think his objection to Frazier is illustrated (not explained) here: "Already the idea of explaining the practice?say the killing of the priest king?seems to me wrong-headed. All that Frazer does is to make the practice plausible to those who think like him. It is very strange to present all these practices, in the end, so to speak, as foolishness. "But it never does become plausible that people do all this out of sheer stupidity. "When he explains to us, for example, that the king would have to be killed in his prime because, according to the notions of the savages, his soul would otherwise not be kept fresh, then one can only say: where that practice and these notions go together, there the practice does not spring from the notion; instead they are simply both present. "It could well be, and often occurs today, that someone gives up a practice after having realized an error that this practice depended on. But then again, this case holds only when it is enough to make someone aware of his error so as to dissuade him from his mode of action. But surely, this is not the case with the religious practices of a people, and that is why we are not dealing with an error here." (pg 142, Mythology in our Language: Wittgenstein's Remarks on Frazier's Golden Bough) ==== You had written: Apropos Wittgenstein on Frazer 'It was not a trivial reason, for in reality there can be no reason, that prompted certain races of mankind to venerate the oak tree, but only the fact that they and the oak were united in a community of life, and that they arose together not by chance but rather like the flea and the dog (If fleas developed a right, it would be based on the dog).' And ' but what I see in those stories is nevertheless acquired by the evidence, including such evidence as does not appear to be directly connected with them, - through the thoughts of man and his past, through all the strange things I see, and have seen and heard about, in myself and others.' In your supplied quote, isn't W saying that we can't say that there is a connection where it may just be happenstance of life. That (Frazier's) need for explanation is ill-placed. Some things can just be. W uses example of the ellipse and the circle. Just because we can see their commonality in form, does not mean that the ellipse "developed" from the circle, or vice versa. All we can say is that they share attributes. There is no need for any explanation, and if there is, it says more about us than about the reality about which we hope to explain. I find it hard to believe that the Druids are just a flight of fancy, a wish, like Santa Claus, which still was based upon a real historical person. Just because I mention Santa Claus, doesn't mean I BELIEVE in Santa Claus, but I do believe there was a person from which these folk stories generated. Is that the belief that you speak about? Do I need hard facts to be allowed to discuss Santa Claus on this list? If the Druids are simply made up, then why did the Romans erect laws forbidding their practices? (Which apparently involved human sacrifice) Why are they mentioned in long traditions in folk stories in various different cultures? I'm just not sure why it has invoked such an "anti-druid" response in you. The Cathars did not seem to do that for you, another group of people who were little understood and what little we know was also set down by their persecutors. Must I also say that they did not exist as well? ----- I also saw this note and thought it might pertain to the earlier discussion on the word "sociocultural": "That a human shadow, which looks like a human being, or one?s mirror image, that rain, thunderstorms, the phases of the moon, the change of seasons, the likeness or difference of animals to one another and to human beings, the phenomenon of death, of birth, and of sexual life, in short, everything that a human being senses around himself, year in, year out, in manifold mutual connection? *that all this should play a role in the thought of human beings (their philosophy) and in their practices is self-evident;* or, in other words, it is what we really know and find interesting. (my emphasis) "How could the fire or the fire?s resemblance to the sun have failed to make an impression on the awakening mind of man? But not perhaps 'because he can?t explain it to himself' (the stupid superstition of our time)?for does an 'explanation' make it less impressive??" (pg 40, Mythology in our Language: Wittgenstein's Remarks on Frazier's Golden Bough) And thus I come to the question for Andy: do the items, that W lists in the first paragraph of the quote above, pertain to a culture, a society, a language, or history, or tool? Do these items have no ability to form or influence thought in the development of an individual? If they do, how do they relate to Vygotskian/CHAT theories? If they do not, why not? Kind regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200519/d1f5cb1a/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Tue May 19 14:04:47 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 21:04:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hello Tom, Thank you for posting the link. I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended into our lives. I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control the world. Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to deliberate the way forward. As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency to decide how to use our tools. Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply does not hold water for me. I hope this might be a little encouraging. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hello Tom Richardson This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat Project" that has just finished its planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human development, and theories of "Development in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most members of this discussion over the years, is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about for 100 years. Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing working models of effective practices that do NOT assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. Thanks for asking. mike On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson > wrote: Greetings Xmca-ers I would like to raise a question. In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening recently: "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks after that article appeared, he described the ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the country had been forced to cobble together during this public health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!XMYZLij5q55r41EXif-MJost6K3shuLNs0kLhbi0Fs37vgn8IN9Dk9pb30OjNbBhhx2v3w$ Just asking Tom Richardson Middlesbrough UK -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200519/dfee1ad9/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Tue May 19 17:16:50 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 00:16:50 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Open letter in the Nation Message-ID: Hello venerable others, I saw this and thought to pass it on it is from The Nation: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/letter-new-left-biden/__;!!Mih3wA!RoL4QwxZfEm2Ued8yEIUru2hvD57XX8vlxvvVfEFARiRZAh6tDi_rSYVTDstuD7-15i8Yg$ I learned about it from this opinion piece in the NYT here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/13/opinion/socialists-support-biden-election.html__;!!Mih3wA!RoL4QwxZfEm2Ued8yEIUru2hvD57XX8vlxvvVfEFARiRZAh6tDi_rSYVTDstuD7o3BKO8Q$ Kind regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200520/51cee447/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Tue May 19 18:39:00 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 11:39:00 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> <36147263-58ba-6908-ce60-bc367719772e@marxists.org> Message-ID: <71876107-fad8-3a23-2bd9-35d13d923268@marxists.org> Of course, Annalisa, I agree that Science is a moral practice, but that is not what is at issue here. Two issues concern me with what you have said: (1) the question of "who decides?" and (2) the quantification of development as in "more evolved" bringing with it the implication of moral value attached to development. (1) The discovery of the "social construction of reality" was an achievement of the Left, the progressives, with people like the Critical Psychologists, the theorists of postmodernism and post-structural feminists in the 1970s an 80s, who exposed how taken-for-granted facts along with the truths of Science were on closer inspection ideological products of dominant social groups. Of course, how reality is /seen /is an inseparable part of how reality /is/. This insight led to a range of powerful theoretical and practical critiques of all aspects of society. Feminists offered an alternative way of interpreting reality as a powerful lever for changing that reality by undermining patriarchal structures and certainties. So far so good. But today, in 2020, it is not progressives who are asking "who decides?" and calling into question the very idea of truth and fact: it is Donald Trump and Rudi Giuliani. Quite honestly, this outcome was always implicit in the postmodern and poststructuralist critique. Or, could I say: "Donald Trump is a more evolved form of Judith Butler" if I thought in those terms, which I don't. Hegel takes up this problem with the maxim: "Everything is both immediate and mediated." Yes, social interests dominant in a certain social domain by definition determine what is true in that domain (though remember, every social domain is finite and has its boundaries). But that is not just by saying something about an/independently existing/ reality which can be subject to any number of /alternative/ representations (as Kant would have it), but rather the dominant social interests /determine that reality itself/. They do that both /immediately /and /through the ideal representation/ of that reality which is *part of that reality*. You can't "decide" by a purely discursive moves - you have to /change /that reality. You do that with the weapons of both theoretical and practical critique. What this means is that you can study the documents (assuming you weren't personally present) of some past dispute and see with your own eyes how and why some people formulated new word meanings, and began to use these new word meaning(s) in their own communication, and thereby facilitated others from using this word meaning, and the relevant concepts, in their work, and so on. (2) As perhaps I have illustrated in my example above that there is no implication of "higher" in development. In my own education, it was Sylvia Scribner's "Uses of History" (1985) which explained this to me. "Higher" implies comparison and comparison in turn implies /interchangeability/. For example, if I was considering whether to emigrate to the US or France, I might consider public safety as a metric and decide that France was superior to the US and make my decision accordingly. Or, I might consider job availability for an English-speaking monoglot like me as the metric, and decide that the US was superior to France. But to decide that the US is superior to France or vice versa without the choice and the relevant metric is the moral judgment which neither you nor I find acceptable. They're just different. Understanding word meanings and concepts entails an analysis of *both *how the word is used in the field in question, and the history as to how it came to be so. Using the concept of "germ cell," I can work my way back and forth through an etymological field, forensically, like a detective, until I can connect the particular use of the word which emerged as a germ cell at some earlier time, in some situation where the implication of choosing that word meaning was abundantly clear to all, which allows me to see *why* someone felt the need (now forgotten) to introduce the word meaning and what it's absence would mean here and now, where it is already taken for granted. My apologies for the unacceptably long message, which is much against my own mores, but I don't know how to clarify these issues more succinctly. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 20/05/2020 3:51 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Andy, > > I suppose the issue about being on a branch of evolution > has more to do with who decides what the branch is. Is it > time? or is it topical? or is it based upon the interlocutors? > > If we say one word usage is more "evolved" than another, I > suppose I am just pushing back on that because who decides > what is more evolved? > > Forgive me, but can we ever say that if something is more > "evolved" it is actually better? What do we actually mean > when we say something is evolved? > > What if one term lasts over a longer arc of time than > another usage? It seems if we use the evolution rubric, it > would be considered more "fit" than the one that is > changing over the same period of time. > > I do find it helpful that you to bring up the germ cell > and how that concept pertains to analysis. That makes a > lot of sense to me. I'm glad to know that to assign the > parentheses does entail an ideological move, and that that > can't be escaped. As long as we know what the ideology is, > there is transparency in our analysis. > > I do think moral evaluations are worth including on all > discussions, not necessarily to forbid discussions or > scientific pursuits, but to use as landmarks to keep our > bearings. Scientific concepts have a way of not being > inclusive of contexts (i.e., lived experiences) or being > grounded, right? > > Perhaps this is what made Vygotsky such a humane and > compassionate scientific thinker is that he could > understand how scientific concepts can be abusive tools > for oppression. Anchoring them in lived experience shows > their validity. Would this be a fair statement to you, Andy? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy > Blunden > *Sent:* Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:23 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > *? [EXTERNAL]* > > ** > > Annalisa, "where does history start"? Effectively there is > no starting point, and the choosing of a starting point is > always an ideological move. Foucault does this to great > effect. Ilyenkov deals with this in his book "The Abstract > and Concrete in Marx's Capital" and explains the need for > what he calls the "logical-historical method." To short > circuit the complexities of reading Ilyenkov, in CHAT we > rely on the identification of the unit of analysis or > "germ cell" to anchor our historical investigation. > > > "Sociogenesis" is just Latin for "social development," the > word I used. But if you are going to ascribe a moral value > to "evolution" and then reject the concept on that basis, > you'd better also reject "development" and all the > "geneses" and evolution of species by natural selection > and all modern biology while you are at it. Alternatively, > you could choose *not* to ascribe moral values to > scientific concepts, then the whole of science is open to you. > > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 18/05/2020 3:25 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> Hi Andy (& VO's), >> >> I think that that was my point, that we cannot capture >> everything in the word to describe the theory. And that >> is because of the limit of our language. >> >> Even where genesis actually is, where something starts >> can be difficult to pinpoint. I mean where does History >> actually start? >> >> These words that you mention phylogenesis, ethnogenesis, >> ontogenesis, are words that are like brackets of a pair >> of parentheses. Who decides where to put them? (And why >> not sociogenesis?) >> >> I'm not sure it's correct to say the choice of a word >> locates the user on a branch of a cultural evolutionary >> tree, because then that starts to mean that one speaker >> is more evolved than another based on the use of a word. >> >> It might be better to say that the choice of a word >> locates the user to a particular context. I could live >> with that. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> >> on behalf of >> Andy Blunden >> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:27 PM >> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >> >> *? [EXTERNAL]* >> >> You're never going to succeed in formally capturing the >> full scope of the theory in a word, Annalisa. >> "socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory" >> still leave out biology and Darwin, which is a part of >> our theory, too. >> >> >> It is sometimes said that human development is the >> coincidence of *four* processes: *phylogenesis *(i.e., >> evolution of the species), cultural development >> (*ethnogenesis*, the development of technology *and >> *language), *social development* (one and the same >> culture has different classes and political groups side >> by side) and *ontogenesis *(even twins can grow up very >> differently according to the experiences >> (/perezhivaniya/) they go through). I tried to describe >> this in: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/ontogenesis.htm__;!!Mih3wA!TLrWUBWNIMJR-d4Rr1HJ5aNy8a9feC14rEE8Y9KK_yg-3NYAubzMD2iHXcVRpSlCvpjd8w$ >> >> >> >> But if you look into the history of a word what you will >> inevitably find is that at some point (in time and social >> space) there was some dispute, and this dispute was >> either (1) resolved by both parties agreeing and marking >> this agreement by the coining of a new word meaning or >> the dropping of a word meaning altogether, or (2) there >> is a split and one or both sides of the split adopt a >> word meaning which distinguishes them from the other side >> (structuralism's favourite trope) or variations on the >> above scenarios. >> >> >> So the choice of a word tends to locate the user on a >> branch in the cultural evolutionary tree. >> >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 17/05/2020 11:56 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> David K & VO's >>> >>> What pray-tell is an anthropologue? >>> >>> I am divided (pun intended) about saying that >>> sociocultural = social + culture, when they are >>> intertwined holistically. To me, sociocultural points to >>> a space in between, or perhaps better said to a context >>> of interactions between individuals (who form a society) >>> that are easily accepted among them and practiced over time. >>> >>> We can conceptually parse out the social and the >>> cultural, but don't we do that because of the words and >>> not because of the ostensible reality going on >>> interactionally? Can we always understand something by >>> dissecting it into parts? >>> >>> Again, this seems to be the limit of language, not of >>> the conceptual context or content. >>> >>> In a sense to use the term "sociocultural" is to grab >>> the tail of the tiger. The tail of the tiger is still >>> the tiger, but perhaps a more manageable one than to >>> grab its head. >>> >>> Perhaps this is why Vygotskians just call themselves >>> Vygotskians to align themselves with the source of the >>> first theories rather than to later conceptions and >>> other developments (i.e. Leontiev, etc). Just thinking >>> out loud. >>> >>> Another argument is that if we want to be all inclusive, >>> then we have to include tool-use, as it's not the >>> social, the culture, and the history, but also the >>> language and tools used. I realize some practitioners >>> would say that language is no different than a tool, but >>> I feel language is different, even though it may have a >>> similar cognitive response in the mind as would using a >>> tool. >>> >>> Activity suggests tool use, though not always. Consider >>> dance, or storytelling, or going for a walk. >>> >>> How about: socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical >>> activity theory??? >>> >>> Yes! I am writing this a little tongue in cheek. I hope >>> you do not mind. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalsia >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> >>> on behalf of >>> David Kellogg >>> >>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:14 PM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >>> >>> *[EXTERNAL]* >>> >>> It's a very domain-specific umbrella, like those >>> cane-brollies that go with a bowler. "Sociocultural" is >>> strongly preferred used in second language acquisition, >>> thanks to the influence of Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf >>> and Matthew Poehner; I have never seen "cultural >>> historical" used in this literature. But >>> "cultural-historical" is similarly preferred in >>> psychology and anthropology, thanks to the influence of >>> J.V. Wertsch, Mike Cole,?Martin Packer and Andy >>> Blunden;?that's really why we are having this discussion >>> on what "socio-cultural" might mean on a list largely >>> populated by roving?psychologists and nomadic >>> anthropologues. >>> >>> Interestingly, the Francophones prefer >>> "historico-cultural", using the argument that you can >>> understand the process without the product but not the >>> product without the process. I stopped using >>> "sociocultural" because I thought it was redundant, but >>> now I am really not sure of this: it seems to me that >>> the relationship is a similar one--you can study society >>> as process without studying its cultural product (e.g. >>> as demographics, economics, statistics) but you can't >>> really study culture without some understanding of the >>> process of its formation. >>> >>> There was a similar disagreement in systemic functional >>> linguistics between Halliday and Jim Martin over the >>> term "socio-semiotic". Martin said that it was >>> redundant, because there couldn't be any semiotic >>> without society.?Halliday rather flippantly replied that >>> ants had a society without a semiotics, and at the time >>> it seemed to me that?this was a?non sequitur,?first of >>> all because ants don't really have a society in >>> our?sense (precisely because there is no such thing as >>> an ant history separate from phylogenesis on the one >>> hand and ontogenesis on the other) and secondly because >>> ants most definitely do have a semiotics, albeit one >>> based on chemistry and not perception as ours is. >>> >>> It seems to me, in retrospect, that the relationship >>> between the semiotic and the social is much more like >>> the relationship between the social and the biological, >>> or even the biological and the chemical. The semiotic is >>> a certain level of organization that the social has, but >>> there are other?levels, just as biology is a certain >>> kind of chemical organization which does not exclude >>> other, nonbiological ways organizing chemicals, >>> and?chemistry is a kind of physical organization which >>> doesn't exclude sub-chemical organizations. >>> >>> Perhaps we can think of the relationship between culture >>> and society in the same way? >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a >>> manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!TLrWUBWNIMJR-d4Rr1HJ5aNy8a9feC14rEE8Y9KK_yg-3NYAubzMD2iHXcVRpSklIJuR3Q$ >>> >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. Vygotsky's >>> Pedological Works/ /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TLrWUBWNIMJR-d4Rr1HJ5aNy8a9feC14rEE8Y9KK_yg-3NYAubzMD2iHXcVRpSnyv5vLjw$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David H Kirshner >>> > wrote: >>> >>> 4. As an umbrella term for any sociogenetic approach. >>> >>> Isn?t that its current usage? >>> >>> David >>> >>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> >> > *On Behalf >>> Of *Annalisa Aguilar >>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> >> > >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >>> >>> Hi Andy, and VO's, >>> >>> What fascinates me is that the word "sociocultural" >>> has a lot of different facets in terms of how the >>> word was used in different contexts. It seems there >>> are three I've been able to pick out. >>> >>> 1. as a derisive term in early Soviet history. >>> 2. as an empowering term from Latin American voices. >>> 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist "brand" at the >>> height of the Cold War in the US. >>> >>> I'm not sure if I've done justice in the manner that >>> I've represented that, but it is a well-intended >>> attempt. Are there others? >>> >>> What I don't understand fully is whether there must >>> be ONE explanation how the term came to be, or ONE >>> definition of what it actually means. Can't it be >>> polysemantic?? polycontextual? >>> >>> If that is what's happening, then it makes sense >>> that there would be an ongoing controversy about >>> which one is the right definition or reason for not >>> using it, depending on the interlocutor. >>> >>> If we are to talk about who used the term first, and >>> that's where the value/authority holds, then all >>> that tells us is that for those who value who used >>> the term first. that's where the authority is. >>> >>> If we talk about the emotional attachment of the >>> word as it is used in context and that's where the >>> value/authority holds, then that tells us for those >>> who value the most personal attachment to the word, >>> that's where the authority is. >>> >>> If we talk about how the word was used functionally, >>> where the value/authority holds in its efficacy, >>> then all that tells is that for those who value >>> whether the word works or not, that's where the >>> authority is. >>> >>> I'm not sure one can put any of one these over the >>> other two (or if there are more than that, if there >>> are more). All we can say I suppose is whether in a >>> particular context is the word "sociocultural" >>> appropriate or not? >>> >>> I do find that this debate has begun to have its own >>> life, this debate over the use of a word. I've begun >>> doubt it will ever cease. >>> >>> One day the discussion will be how one used to >>> debate about the term, first everyone was this way >>> about the word, than they were that way about the >>> word, and many large camps were formed in XXXX year >>> to say why the word should not be used, but then X >>> years later other large camps formed to say it is >>> fine to use the word. I suppose it will only be when >>> the debate ceases will it come to pass that the >>> debate will be forgotten. But will that cessation >>> solidify the use or non-use of the word? >>> >>> I understand the reasons for saying "cultural >>> psychology." But for those swimming in a culture >>> where behaviorism is considered the soul of >>> psychology, adding "cultural" becomes a sad >>> necessity.? Even then, that necessity only depends >>> upon how one sees culture, as either as an additive, >>> an integral ingredient of psychology, or its basis. >>> I believe I've read on the list that one should be >>> able to say "psychology" and just *know* that it >>> includes culture. I don't think we are there yet. >>> >>> Then that would be my argument to use >>> "sociocultural" to understand it includes history. >>> CHAT is sort of a defensive term (well, it is an >>> acronym). But then... it leaves out "social" and is >>> that OK? We certainly should not say sociocultural >>> historical activity theory because that acronym is >>> very unfulfilling. What is nice about CHAT though is >>> that to chat is an activity of speech, and there is >>> a implied meaning that also pertains to Vygotskian >>> theories, and therefore meaningful. >>> >>> In a sense, it's not the meaning that we are arguing >>> over, but how the limitations of our particular >>> language fails to convey a meaning with such >>> precision that it thereby to parses away any other >>> inappropriate meaning. I'm just not sure that the >>> project is one that can be achieved successfully, >>> even if it succeeds for an interim. >>> >>> At the same time I can see why story of the elephant >>> and the blind men also have a part to play in our >>> understandings and assumptions. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> >> > on behalf >>> of Andy Blunden >> > >>> *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM >>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> >> > >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >>> >>> *? [EXTERNAL]* >>> >>> Annalisa, I have only been talking and writing about >>> Vygotsky and co. since about 2000 and have been >>> openly Marxist since the 1960s (indeed, Vygotsky is >>> core to how I understand Marx) and never had any >>> reason not to be. But it is true that when Mike >>> first went to Moscow, it was at the height of the >>> Cold War, and when he and others first brought >>> Vygotsky's ideas to the USA, there was a lot of >>> resistance to their Marxist content. I think the >>> naming issue only arose as Vygotsky and the others >>> began to build a real following. The issues with the >>> choice of name change over the years, as you say. I >>> prefer" CHAT," but sometimes I use "Cultural >>> Psychology" and sometimes I use "Activity Theory" >>> depending on the context. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> >>> On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>> Andy, et al, >>> >>> I sort of came to this a little late in the >>> thread, but I can offer that Vera John-Steiner >>> didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe >>> Vygotskian theory, but as I learn more about the >>> word (thank you Mike), I can see how once a word >>> is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard >>> for the association to be broken. >>> >>> I think it's that way with words all the time >>> coming and going out of favor, or meanings >>> shifting, like the game of telephone, but across >>> generations and cultures. >>> >>> Might I contribute to the discussion by asking >>> whether the use of "sociocultural" was also a >>> means of making the theories more available in >>> the West (at least in the US). It seems there >>> was redscare (you are welcome read the double >>> entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as you >>> like) prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to >>> remove the Marxist "brand" to access the actual >>> theories on child development? In other words, >>> to depoliticize the science? >>> >>> I had been a proponent of the use of the word, >>> but as time passes, I can see its problems. >>> >>> For me, I had preferred the word because >>> historical was always a given for me. In concern >>> of the here and now, the real difficulty I had >>> thought was understanding the social- how >>> interactions between the child and the >>> caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the >>> -cultural, how the culture impacts thought, >>> those things are more of the micro level, but >>> also sociocultural, how the two also can >>> interact and influence one another and that >>> combined bears its own signature on the mind and >>> its development.? As far as History (capital H) >>> that is sort of difficult to measure when we are >>> talking about child development as there is very >>> little history that a child has, unless we are >>> talking about genetics, I suppose. >>> >>> Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I >>> respect and am enriched by the discourse in >>> which we now we find ourselves immersed about it >>> so thanks to all for this. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> >>> on >>> behalf of Andy Blunden >>> >>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM >>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> >>> >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural >>> psychology" ? >>> >>> *? [EXTERNAL]* >>> >>> In response to requests, I will elaborate. >>> Apologies to Mike if I have garbled the long and >>> complex story he told. I have done my best. >>> >>> Jim Wertsch said: >>> >>> Various people undoubtedly have various >>> accounts of this, but I consciously started >>> to use this in order to bring in cultural >>> anthropology and also to avoid the >>> unexamined social evolutionism in some >>> approaches that I was building from.? I >>> believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 >>> book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of >>> the subtitle of my book Voices of the Mind.? >>> It is not a term used by Soviet scholars >>> when talking about the Vygotsky tradition. >>> Instead, the terms there were >>> ?socio-historical? or ?cultural-historical.? >>> >>> Mike Cole told me: >>> >>> In addition to what has been said on line >>> ... initially, the term "sociocultural" was >>> used as a term of abuse by the opponents of >>> Vygotsky's ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, >>> so it was not a term which his Russian >>> followers ever embraced. The Soviet >>> hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, >>> apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a >>> conference in Berlin and the Soviets >>> prevented Russian delegates form attending. >>> Jim Wertsch, who had been on a sabbatical >>> year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and >>> was angry about what he saw, was at the >>> congress too and went from there to a >>> conference in Spain where a group of Spanish >>> Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists >>> had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global >>> South" and they used the term >>> "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning >>> something like Vygotsky+postcolonialism. >>> Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth >>> adopted to term, meaning to distinguish >>> himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT >>> emerged as a term a little later in an >>> effort to unite the followers of the various >>> brands of "Activity Theory" with those who >>> did not embrace the Activity Theory of >>> Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with >>> Vygotsky. CHAT includes the H for History, >>> because in all the various terms being used >>> at that time, there was no attention to the >>> important place of History in theory, and it >>> was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> >>> On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> I should have reported progress with my >>> question. >>> >>> Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and >>> Mike Cole Skyped me and between these two I >>> have a very rich history of the usage of >>> this term and the various nuances it >>> acquired and shed, and Mike has put the >>> article Martin referred to on his >>> academia.edu >>> >>> page for us all to read. >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!TLrWUBWNIMJR-d4Rr1HJ5aNy8a9feC14rEE8Y9KK_yg-3NYAubzMD2iHXcVRpSlprYvMRg$ >>> >>> >>> As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless >>> mine of wisdom. Thank you. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> >>> On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: >>> >>> Thank you Anthony for the interesting >>> question and link. The way I see this >>> issue is that?Vygotskian work >>> attempts?to understand human activity >>> multi-dimensionally (or even better >>> holistically, trying to reunite what the >>> emergence of various parochial >>> disciplines have pulled?apart for >>> analysis of the separate dimensions).? >>> The different terms that Veresov points >>> out as contending are simply >>> foregrounding those sets of components >>> that are most salient to the particular >>> analyst at that moment.? To those we >>> might add other elements that Vygotsky >>> was interested in such as consciousness >>> and language and experience and >>> mediation (and even economics and human >>> knowledge?and education lurk in the >>> background, as well as human >>> neurodiversity as well as materialities >>> of the experienced world). That is the >>> wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may >>> have developed some of the components >>> more than others and he was acting >>> nominally as a psychologist--yet his >>> approach allows the integration of all >>> these components. >>> >>> I therefore use different conjunctions >>> of terms depending on what I am talking >>> about, and I see activity as the >>> overarching term--though this does not >>> necessarily mean triangles all the >>> time.? Rather activity is humans in >>> motion, mobilizing multiple internal and >>> external resources in situations. >>> >>> While I would like some stability in >>> terms, right now our different concerns >>> and issues leave salience mutable. And I >>> am not yet?comfortable in being >>> terminally enlisted into another >>> scholar's transient saliencies. >>> >>> BTW, I see another related, parallel >>> attempt at reintegrating the social >>> sciences in the pragmatist project which >>> has at times been in communication with >>> the activity theory project (see my >>> paper "Practically Human").? This >>> project also never settled on a coherent >>> set of terms and stable concepts. >>> >>> Chuck >>> >>> ---- >>> >>> ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? >>> >>> ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? >>> >>> Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de >>> inmigrantes. >>> >>> The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. >>> >>> History will judge. >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!TLrWUBWNIMJR-d4Rr1HJ5aNy8a9feC14rEE8Y9KK_yg-3NYAubzMD2iHXcVRpSlXtuKv9g$ >>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!TLrWUBWNIMJR-d4Rr1HJ5aNy8a9feC14rEE8Y9KK_yg-3NYAubzMD2iHXcVRpSm7Dp0XeQ$ >>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!TLrWUBWNIMJR-d4Rr1HJ5aNy8a9feC14rEE8Y9KK_yg-3NYAubzMD2iHXcVRpSmPBrjkNg$ >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony >>> Barra >> > wrote: >>> >>> Interesting question (and >>> follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. >>> >>> While not 100% related, I wonder if >>> this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds >>> any value: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!TLrWUBWNIMJR-d4Rr1HJ5aNy8a9feC14rEE8Y9KK_yg-3NYAubzMD2iHXcVRpSnD-DiSwQ$ >>> ?"Pros >>> and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" >>> >>> As a non-expert, I can empathize >>> with Nikolai's main point, but I'm >>> not so sure the cons outweigh the >>> pros here. >>> >>> But what WOULD happen if a >>> terminological consensus was formed >>> -- could Vygotsky's theory (and >>> methodology), in fact, be >>> definitively defined?? If so, would >>> the?benefits of doing so outweigh >>> the constraints? >>> >>> I'm guessing this is an old >>> conversation, and maybe even stale, >>> but I'm more outsider than insider >>> and don't really know. >>> >>> Thank you for any insight. >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM >>> Martin Packer >> > wrote: >>> >>> I had assumed you were looking >>> for uses earlier than Jim >>> Wertsch?s, Andy. >>> >>> Jim used the term in titles in >>> 1989 too. And in the >>> introduction to this book he, >>> along with Pablo del Rio and >>> Amelia Alvarez, explain why in >>> their view it?s the best term: >>> >>> >>> >>> Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & >>> Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). >>> /Sociocultural studies of mind./ >>> Cambridge University Press. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 >>> PM, Andy Blunden >>> >> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks to everyone for their >>> help. It all went into the >>> mix. Indeed, the term seems >>> to have migrated from >>> Spanish to English and the >>> word "sociocultural" became >>> popular in 1990, and it >>> seems that Jim Wertsch is >>> the fellow who triggered the >>> explosion in "sociocultural >>> psychology" with "Voices of >>> the mind : a sociocultural >>> approach to mediated action >>> " >>> published by Harvard >>> University Press in 1991. >>> >>> Although "sociocultural" >>> seems to be most widely >>> associated with "context >>> dependence," Wertsch's >>> reference to "mediated >>> action" in the title of this >>> book makes it clear that for >>> him "context" referred to >>> the signs and artefacts >>> mediating action. >>> >>> Thanks again to all >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> >>> On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, >>> David Kellogg wrote: >>> >>> Andy-- >>> >>> Go to to the Google >>> N-gram site itself. >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!TLrWUBWNIMJR-d4Rr1HJ5aNy8a9feC14rEE8Y9KK_yg-3NYAubzMD2iHXcVRpSkrNXPoow$ >>> >>> >>> Then do your own n-gram >>> for "sociocultural >>> psychology". If you set >>> the years you'll get >>> better granularity in >>> the document search. >>> >>> On the bottom of the >>> n-gram, there are some >>> dates in blue--when you >>> click on them, you >>> should get a list of all >>> the books used in the >>> search. >>> >>> dk >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya >>> Hasan, in memoriam: A >>> manual and a manifesto. >>> >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!TLrWUBWNIMJR-d4Rr1HJ5aNy8a9feC14rEE8Y9KK_yg-3NYAubzMD2iHXcVRpSklIJuR3Q$ >>> >>> >>> New Translation with >>> Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >>> Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works/ /Volume One: >>> Foundations of Pedology/" >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TLrWUBWNIMJR-d4Rr1HJ5aNy8a9feC14rEE8Y9KK_yg-3NYAubzMD2iHXcVRpSnyv5vLjw$ >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at >>> 11:17 AM Martin Packer >>> >> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> The earliest use of >>> the term >>> ?sociocultural? I?ve >>> been able to find in >>> English is this: >>> >>> A?sociocultural >>> psychology, >>> by?Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero >>> >>> In "Chicano >>> psychology", 1977 - >>> Academic Press >>> >>> Diaz-Guerrero was >>> Mexican >>> psychologists whose >>> publications in >>> Spanish use the term >>> ?sociocultural? >>> frequently. >>> >>> The 2nd edition of >>> Chicano Psychology >>> is available in >>> Google books, >>> and?Diaz-Guerrero >>> has a chapter in it, >>> but titled The >>> psychological study >>> of the Mexican. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 12, 2020, >>> at 8:47 PM, Andy >>> Blunden >>> >> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> That graph from >>> Google shows >>> that usage of >>> the term took >>> off in 1988. How >>> do we find out >>> who wrote what >>> in 1988? >>> >>> And Google also >>> tell us that >>> "Sociocultural?theory >>> grew from the >>> work of >>> seminal?psychologist?Lev >>> Vygotsky, who >>> believed that >>> parents, >>> caregivers, >>> peers, and the >>> culture at large >>> were responsible >>> for developing >>> higher-order >>> functions. >>> According to >>> Vygotsky, >>> learning has its >>> basis in >>> interacting with >>> other people," >>> together with a >>> reference. So >>> that is nice. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social >>> Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> >>> On 13/05/2020 >>> 11:30 am, David >>> Kellogg wrote: >>> >>> Andy: >>> >>> I did a >>> Google >>> N-gram on >>> it. You >>> probably >>> thought of >>> doing this >>> too, but >>> here's what >>> I got. >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!TLrWUBWNIMJR-d4Rr1HJ5aNy8a9feC14rEE8Y9KK_yg-3NYAubzMD2iHXcVRpSnsphfvVw$ >>> " >>> width=900 >>> height=500 >>> marginwidth=0 >>> marginheight=0 >>> hspace=0 >>> vspace=0 >>> frameborder=0 >>> scrolling=no >>> >>> So it all >>> starts >>> around 1960. >>> At first I >>> thought this >>> probably >>> referred to >>> the Hanfmann >>> and Vakar >>> "Thought and >>> Language", >>> but when I >>> looked the >>> only books >>> that used >>> the term >>> were sports >>> psychology >>> books. The >>> big uptick >>> after 1992 >>> is Vygotsky >>> though. >>> >>> Of course, >>> this is all >>> English >>> only. I am >>> sure you >>> will find >>> very >>> different >>> results in >>> German, >>> where >>> "cultural >>> historical >>> psychology" >>> is the trend >>> identified >>> with >>> Dilthey, >>> Spranger, >>> and >>> neo-Kantianism >>> generally. >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> >>> Sangmyung >>> University >>> >>> New Article: >>> Ruqaiya >>> Hasan, in >>> memoriam: A >>> manual and a >>> manifesto. >>> >>> Outlines, >>> Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!TLrWUBWNIMJR-d4Rr1HJ5aNy8a9feC14rEE8Y9KK_yg-3NYAubzMD2iHXcVRpSklIJuR3Q$ >>> >>> >>> New >>> Translation >>> with Nikolai >>> Veresov: >>> /L.S. >>> Vygotsky's >>> Pedological >>> Works/ >>> /Volume One: >>> Foundations >>> of Pedology/" >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TLrWUBWNIMJR-d4Rr1HJ5aNy8a9feC14rEE8Y9KK_yg-3NYAubzMD2iHXcVRpSnyv5vLjw$ >>> >>> >>> On Tue, May >>> 12, 2020 at >>> 10:43 PM >>> Andy Blunden >>> >> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> Can >>> anyone >>> tell me >>> when and >>> with >>> whom the >>> term >>> "sociocultural >>> psychology" >>> originated? >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> -- >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> *Andy >>> Blunden* >>> Hegel >>> for >>> Social >>> Movements >>> >>> Home >>> Page >>> >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200520/416125bd/attachment-0001.html From annalisa@unm.edu Tue May 19 22:28:50 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 05:28:50 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Conference: The Psychology of Global Crises May 20-30 American University of Paris Message-ID: Hello Venerable Others of the XMCA, Somehow, clicking links on various associated websites, I learned about this conference which is starting the kickoff in a few hours (midnight PST). I think there might be lectures recorded for those in different time zones. Many great presentations from folks all over the world. See: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.aup.edu/psychology-global-crises/schedule__;!!Mih3wA!R6P-EKxb6DFao-FZ1uRaK1C_8yVUO-MmC05xV18VPibLTSNJlndmTI_Rr-1RX6pFfOAksA$ I figure since there is (understandably) a great rush to understand this boiling pot we find ourselves in, this virtual conference may be of interest to those on this list. And it is free... Kind regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200520/586721dd/attachment.html From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Wed May 20 06:31:12 2020 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 14:31:12 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Annalisa Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. - What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such learning takes place?'. - What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes for the *perezhivanie *of the learner, which shapes her social being and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. Kind regards Tom On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello Tom, > > Thank you for posting the link. > > I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly > dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is > not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking > pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended > into our lives. > > I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It > reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and > resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has > become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. > > At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power > in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. > > Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill > Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as > the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment > facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include > Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding > flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his > billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). > > I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage > agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace > illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the > drug wars. These efforts are working. > > Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem > I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. > > She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID > (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control > the world. > > Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of > the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. > Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is > the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to > deliberate the way forward. > > As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to > control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, > or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in > ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be > construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency > to decide how to use our tools. > > Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt > will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled > children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional > online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. > > So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply > does not hold water for me. > > I hope this might be a little encouraging. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Hello Tom Richardson > This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat > Project" that has just finished its > planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human > development, and theories of "Development > in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by > the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. > Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to > actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. > The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of > essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. > In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most > dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced > a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most > members of this discussion over the years, > is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations > have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting > a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). > > We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social > science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp > speed and its invisible. > > Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about > for 100 years. > Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing > working models of effective practices that do NOT > assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. > > Thanks for asking. > mike > > > > On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > > Greetings Xmca-ers > I would like to raise a question. > In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major > questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, > democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international > competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan > approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to > these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been > happening recently: > > > "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks > after that article appeared, he described > the > ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the > country had been forced to cobble together during this public health > emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. > > The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids > learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote > and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will > help kids learn better.? " > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!UtOnlGOTSgEwH0To-haFyS3S1zM-LK7x1cF18NmtebovD9tr1S3fLNoVppl0hDUaVrHKfg$ > > > > Just asking > Tom Richardson > Middlesbrough UK > > > > -- > > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, > translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. > For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net > > . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200520/250c7824/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed May 20 09:17:16 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 09:17:16 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Conference: The Psychology of Global Crises May 20-30 American University of Paris In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looks relevant and interesting, Annalisa. Thanks for forwarding. I appreciated the piece in the Nation. Back in the day what is here the Old Left is what I grew up thinking was the New Left. Talk about "seeing life from both sides now!" I particularly liked their invocation of Weber at the end of the piece. It seems like advice very much appropriate to the moment. mike On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 10:31 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello Venerable Others of the XMCA, > > Somehow, clicking links on various associated websites, I learned about > this conference which is starting the kickoff in a few hours (midnight > PST). I think there might be lectures recorded for those in different time > zones. Many great presentations from folks all over the world. > > See: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.aup.edu/psychology-global-crises/schedule__;!!Mih3wA!W96LJMZqJiin8bCPHUXBokIJ6_dRUaULV7v_vf_dAh-_8fiVKzypw--sk4ADKDcxoD4SFQ$ > > > I figure since there is (understandably) a great rush to understand this > boiling pot we find ourselves in, this virtual conference may be of > interest to those on this list. And it is free... > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!W96LJMZqJiin8bCPHUXBokIJ6_dRUaULV7v_vf_dAh-_8fiVKzypw--sk4ADKDd1gQbdYw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200520/198430d7/attachment.html From robsub@ariadne.org.uk Wed May 20 09:57:56 2020 From: robsub@ariadne.org.uk (robsub@ariadne.org.uk) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 17:57:56 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42f925b96789e37db90f71a5485b77c7@ariadne.org.uk> My first thought when I read the OP was that this crisis is unlikely to teach us anything about remote and online learning per se. There has been a mass of research over the last thirty years and more about how it is best done, what effects it has, how it can best be deployed in different circumstances, including in the poorest places (Sugata Mitra is particularly powerful on this), including the possibilities and the effects in the developing world.* My second thought was that I was perhaps being a bit unjust because I suspect I had lost sight of how new online learning still is to a very large proportion of professional educators who ought to know it by now. I am basing that partly on a regular output of articles in the Guardian, and also a few I have spotted in the liberal American press, about how rushing to put everything online doesn't solve all your problems. As if we needed to be told ? but clearly some people do still need to be told that teaching and learning online is an entirely different animal to doing it face to face. But then I reverted again to my original position ? I doubt that we will learn anything from this about online learning per se that we do not already know. But it has struck me that a different lesson is waiting to be learned if we are willing to learn it. That lesson is not about remote learning or about inequality or about the uses of different tools. It is about the reinsertion of the family into educational practice, flying in the face of a hundred years or more of capitalist industrialist educational policy. To be honest, I doubt that it will stick, just as I doubt that much of what we are doing and learning will stick. Together with colleagues, I will be working my hardest to maintain the good things of this situation, and to undo the bad things that we left behind. But we will be up against very powerful forces in the capitalist industrial (and technological) monolith which will be working equally hard and much more powerfully to return us to the world pre-covid, because they benefitted from it. I will be happy if we can nudge the world a little bit in our direction, particularly towards greener policies. But I am not holding my breath. Rob *The asterisk is for an anecdote. I was tangentially involved in a project to start up internet based learning for midwives in the north of Nigeria, where there is no infrastructure, no electricity, etc etc. They equipped a school room with solar powered laptops and screens, and a solar powered router to connect to online learning materials. We have a photograph of the first few days of the class, which we cannot use. It shows the room from the back with a midwife at every screen. The instructor is standing at the back of the class with his head in his hands. He looks as if he is crying. He told us that he had his head in his hands because he could not believe the beauty of the scene in front of him. On 2020-05-20 14:31, Tom Richardson wrote: > Hello Annalisa > Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost > none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the > capacity of human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal > self-interested behaviour acted out by the same person, I have no > doubts. > > * What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment > created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the > widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which > such learning takes place?'. > * What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes > for the _perezhivanie _of the learner, which shapes her social being > and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', > 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her > society? > > Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't > yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot > grasp what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. > I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is > within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. > > Kind regards > Tom > > On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > >> Hello Tom, >> >> Thank you for posting the link. >> >> I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is >> fairly dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. >> Schmidt. That is not to say that she is far from the mark, but we >> are not just unthinking pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate >> the way technology is distended into our lives. >> >> I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. >> It reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is >> inevitable (and resistance is futile). I say this because she >> presumes this narrative has become the hegemony upon which she >> reacts. It is far too doomsday. >> >> At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for >> power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. >> >> Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with >> Bill Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by >> projects such as the humble toilet in geographic locations without >> waste treatment facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we >> might as well include Warren Buffet in that equation, because the >> lionshare of the funding flowing into the Gates Foundation is from >> him. Buffet did not make his billions through technology, unless you >> want to include the telephone). >> >> I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to >> encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow >> coffee to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence >> that coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. >> >> Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general >> problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the >> chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. >> >> She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis >> of COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind >> move to control the world. >> >> Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the >> bleakness of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is >> correct or accurate. Technology will always be a tool for use. It is >> not monolithic. There is the off button. We do still have a >> democracy and processes in place to deliberate the way forward. >> >> As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to >> control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the >> armor, or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use >> technology in ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can >> be assertion can be construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, >> that we always have agency to decide how to use our tools. >> >> Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. >> Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory >> education for disabled children with his goals for flattening the >> classroom into two-dimensional online learning screens. He will >> never be able to walk around that law. >> >> So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative >> simply does not hold water for me. >> >> I hope this might be a little encouraging. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> ------------------------- >> >> FROM: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of mike cole >> >> SENT: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM >> TO: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> SUBJECT: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> [EXTERNAL] >> >> Hello Tom Richardson >> This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating >> Chat Project" that has just finished its >> planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human >> development, and theories of "Development >> in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was >> replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. >> Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well >> as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the >> world. >> The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number >> of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the >> opportunities. >> In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in >> the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced >> >> a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house >> of most members of this discussion over the years, >> is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite >> relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of >> production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, >> school, work,). >> >> We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing >> social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This >> rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. >> >> Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been >> about for 100 years. >> Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start >> providing working models of effective practices that do NOT >> assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. >> >> Thanks for asking. >> mike >> >> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson >> wrote: >> >>> Greetings Xmca-ers >>> I would like to raise a question. >>> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the >>> major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health >>> protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital >>> Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I >>> wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human >>> development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences >>> on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening >>> recently: >>> >>> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two >>> weeks after that article appeared, he described [1] the ad-hoc >>> home schooling programming that teachers and families across the >>> country had been forced to cobble together during this public >>> health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. >>> >>> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: >>> how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able >>> to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when >>> combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " >>> >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!S24LM1H7lowdPfDbMsEsQcUKNP8ezV7u2ZEpio1LRZEKkbPLR1GSaJgN9Ky9WaJNTPiOcg$ >>> [2] >>> >>> Just asking >>> Tom Richardson >>> Middlesbrough UK >> >> -- >> >> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what >> fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >> --------------------------------------------------- >> For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu >> [3]. >> For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu [4]. >> For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net [5]. > > > Links: > ------ > [1] > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtAyGVuRQME__;!!Mih3wA!VRgkzssOuSyNvpVQWR2QH7dShhiXD5eWtYs2HahNwv_pKUU7G9GOQZMrzIpGsa_-KDBGFw$ > [2] > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!VRgkzssOuSyNvpVQWR2QH7dShhiXD5eWtYs2HahNwv_pKUU7G9GOQZMrzIpGsa-SnnFGDg$ > [3] http://lchc.ucsd.edu > [4] http://lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > [5] > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!V4rtgUKjjshdiOxbIML_kuerunhUbHYomcCKiRVA5FkPs1WJIJwbuavyFoG613bJeWFP-g$ From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed May 20 11:00:22 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 11:00:22 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: <42f925b96789e37db90f71a5485b77c7@ariadne.org.uk> References: <42f925b96789e37db90f71a5485b77c7@ariadne.org.uk> Message-ID: Rob-- The unusual success we just experienced in a "re-generating chat" course via School of Ed at Berkeley, Colorado, Oslo, Barcelona, MAnchester, Wisconsin, Los Angeles, Knoxville, ... serves for me as an existence proof that new, collective, forms of inquiry and educationally relevant practice CAN be created, if not sustained, by people who get into it because it enhances their capacities as researchers and thinkers. The issue, as always, is how to move beyond "one off" demonstrations, fire-flies, to enduring institutional change. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. mike On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:01 AM wrote: > My first thought when I read the OP was that this crisis is unlikely to > teach us anything about remote and online learning per se. There has > been a mass of research over the last thirty years and more about how it > is best done, what effects it has, how it can best be deployed in > different circumstances, including in the poorest places (Sugata Mitra > is particularly powerful on this), including the possibilities and the > effects in the developing world.* > > My second thought was that I was perhaps being a bit unjust because I > suspect I had lost sight of how new online learning still is to a very > large proportion of professional educators who ought to know it by now. > I am basing that partly on a regular output of articles in the Guardian, > and also a few I have spotted in the liberal American press, about how > rushing to put everything online doesn't solve all your problems. As if > we needed to be told ? but clearly some people do still need to be told > that teaching and learning online is an entirely different animal to > doing it face to face. > > But then I reverted again to my original position ? I doubt that we will > learn anything from this about online learning per se that we do not > already know. But it has struck me that a different lesson is waiting to > be learned if we are willing to learn it. That lesson is not about > remote learning or about inequality or about the uses of different > tools. It is about the reinsertion of the family into educational > practice, flying in the face of a hundred years or more of capitalist > industrialist educational policy. > > To be honest, I doubt that it will stick, just as I doubt that much of > what we are doing and learning will stick. Together with colleagues, I > will be working my hardest to maintain the good things of this > situation, and to undo the bad things that we left behind. But we will > be up against very powerful forces in the capitalist industrial (and > technological) monolith which will be working equally hard and much more > powerfully to return us to the world pre-covid, because they benefitted > from it. > > I will be happy if we can nudge the world a little bit in our direction, > particularly towards greener policies. But I am not holding my breath. > > Rob > > *The asterisk is for an anecdote. I was tangentially involved in a > project to start up internet based learning for midwives in the north of > Nigeria, where there is no infrastructure, no electricity, etc etc. They > equipped a school room with solar powered laptops and screens, and a > solar powered router to connect to online learning materials. We have a > photograph of the first few days of the class, which we cannot use. It > shows the room from the back with a midwife at every screen. The > instructor is standing at the back of the class with his head in his > hands. He looks as if he is crying. He told us that he had his head in > his hands because he could not believe the beauty of the scene in front > of him. > > > On 2020-05-20 14:31, Tom Richardson wrote: > > Hello Annalisa > > Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost > > none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the > > capacity of human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal > > self-interested behaviour acted out by the same person, I have no > > doubts. > > > > * What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment > > created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the > > widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which > > such learning takes place?'. > > * What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these > changes > > for the _perezhivanie _of the learner, which shapes her social being > > and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', > > 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her > > society? > > > > Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't > > yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot > > grasp what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. > > I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is > > within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. > > > > Kind regards > > Tom > > > > On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar > > wrote: > > > >> Hello Tom, > >> > >> Thank you for posting the link. > >> > >> I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is > >> fairly dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. > >> Schmidt. That is not to say that she is far from the mark, but we > >> are not just unthinking pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate > >> the way technology is distended into our lives. > >> > >> I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. > >> It reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is > >> inevitable (and resistance is futile). I say this because she > >> presumes this narrative has become the hegemony upon which she > >> reacts. It is far too doomsday. > >> > >> At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for > >> power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. > >> > >> Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with > >> Bill Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by > >> projects such as the humble toilet in geographic locations without > >> waste treatment facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we > >> might as well include Warren Buffet in that equation, because the > >> lionshare of the funding flowing into the Gates Foundation is from > >> him. Buffet did not make his billions through technology, unless you > >> want to include the telephone). > >> > >> I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to > >> encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow > >> coffee to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence > >> that coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. > >> > >> Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general > >> problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the > >> chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. > >> > >> She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis > >> of COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind > >> move to control the world. > >> > >> Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the > >> bleakness of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is > >> correct or accurate. Technology will always be a tool for use. It is > >> not monolithic. There is the off button. We do still have a > >> democracy and processes in place to deliberate the way forward. > >> > >> As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to > >> control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the > >> armor, or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use > >> technology in ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can > >> be assertion can be construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, > >> that we always have agency to decide how to use our tools. > >> > >> Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. > >> Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory > >> education for disabled children with his goals for flattening the > >> classroom into two-dimensional online learning screens. He will > >> never be able to walk around that law. > >> > >> So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative > >> simply does not hold water for me. > >> > >> I hope this might be a little encouraging. > >> > >> Kind regards, > >> > >> Annalisa > >> > >> ------------------------- > >> > >> FROM: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> on behalf of mike cole > >> > >> SENT: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM > >> TO: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> SUBJECT: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > >> > >> [EXTERNAL] > >> > >> Hello Tom Richardson > >> This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating > >> Chat Project" that has just finished its > >> planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human > >> development, and theories of "Development > >> in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was > >> replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. > >> Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well > >> as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the > >> world. > >> The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number > >> of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the > >> opportunities. > >> In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in > >> the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced > >> > >> a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house > >> of most members of this discussion over the years, > >> is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite > >> relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of > >> production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, > >> school, work,). > >> > >> We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing > >> social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This > >> rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. > >> > >> Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been > >> about for 100 years. > >> Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start > >> providing working models of effective practices that do NOT > >> assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. > >> > >> Thanks for asking. > >> mike > >> > >> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Greetings Xmca-ers > >>> I would like to raise a question. > >>> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the > >>> major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health > >>> protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital > >>> Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I > >>> wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human > >>> development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences > >>> on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening > >>> recently: > >>> > >>> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two > >>> weeks after that article appeared, he described [1] the ad-hoc > >>> home schooling programming that teachers and families across the > >>> country had been forced to cobble together during this public > >>> health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. > >>> > >>> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: > >>> how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able > >>> to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when > >>> combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " > >>> > >> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!S24LM1H7lowdPfDbMsEsQcUKNP8ezV7u2ZEpio1LRZEKkbPLR1GSaJgN9Ky9WaJNTPiOcg$ > >>> [2] > >>> > >>> Just asking > >>> Tom Richardson > >>> Middlesbrough UK > >> > >> -- > >> > >> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what > >> fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > >> --------------------------------------------------- > >> For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu > >> [3]. > >> For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu [4]. > >> For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net [5]. > > > > > > Links: > > ------ > > [1] > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtAyGVuRQME__;!!Mih3wA!VRgkzssOuSyNvpVQWR2QH7dShhiXD5eWtYs2HahNwv_pKUU7G9GOQZMrzIpGsa_-KDBGFw$ > > [2] > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!VRgkzssOuSyNvpVQWR2QH7dShhiXD5eWtYs2HahNwv_pKUU7G9GOQZMrzIpGsa-SnnFGDg$ > > [3] http://lchc.ucsd.edu > > [4] http://lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > [5] > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!V4rtgUKjjshdiOxbIML_kuerunhUbHYomcCKiRVA5FkPs1WJIJwbuavyFoG613bJeWFP-g$ > > -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QEj6dEIm3fWSx_ACQQ_MzmIB8BNHT4gbKPVvpNxP0RtC6hPwv8yewaCxK1CwE9ydttNsSA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200520/679e557a/attachment.html From robsub@ariadne.org.uk Wed May 20 11:09:03 2020 From: robsub@ariadne.org.uk (robsub@ariadne.org.uk) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 19:09:03 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: <42f925b96789e37db90f71a5485b77c7@ariadne.org.uk> Message-ID: Mike, I couldn't agree more. But to me that is not something new that I have learned - I already knew that was possible :-) Rob On 2020-05-20 19:00, mike cole wrote: > Rob-- > > The unusual success we just experienced in a "re-generating chat" > course via School of Ed at Berkeley, Colorado, > Oslo, Barcelona, MAnchester, Wisconsin, Los Angeles, Knoxville, ... > serves for me as an existence proof that new, > collective, forms of inquiry and educationally relevant practice CAN > be created, if not sustained, by people who get into > it because it enhances their capacities as researchers and thinkers. > The issue, as always, is how to move beyond "one off" > demonstrations, fire-flies, to enduring institutional change. > > Nothing ventured, nothing gained. > mike > > On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:01 AM wrote: > >> My first thought when I read the OP was that this crisis is unlikely >> to >> teach us anything about remote and online learning per se. There has >> >> been a mass of research over the last thirty years and more about >> how it >> is best done, what effects it has, how it can best be deployed in >> different circumstances, including in the poorest places (Sugata >> Mitra >> is particularly powerful on this), including the possibilities and >> the >> effects in the developing world.* >> >> My second thought was that I was perhaps being a bit unjust because >> I >> suspect I had lost sight of how new online learning still is to a >> very >> large proportion of professional educators who ought to know it by >> now. >> I am basing that partly on a regular output of articles in the >> Guardian, >> and also a few I have spotted in the liberal American press, about >> how >> rushing to put everything online doesn't solve all your problems. As >> if >> we needed to be told ? but clearly some people do still need to be >> told >> that teaching and learning online is an entirely different animal to >> >> doing it face to face. >> >> But then I reverted again to my original position ? I doubt that >> we will >> learn anything from this about online learning per se that we do not >> >> already know. But it has struck me that a different lesson is >> waiting to >> be learned if we are willing to learn it. That lesson is not about >> remote learning or about inequality or about the uses of different >> tools. It is about the reinsertion of the family into educational >> practice, flying in the face of a hundred years or more of >> capitalist >> industrialist educational policy. >> >> To be honest, I doubt that it will stick, just as I doubt that much >> of >> what we are doing and learning will stick. Together with colleagues, >> I >> will be working my hardest to maintain the good things of this >> situation, and to undo the bad things that we left behind. But we >> will >> be up against very powerful forces in the capitalist industrial (and >> >> technological) monolith which will be working equally hard and much >> more >> powerfully to return us to the world pre-covid, because they >> benefitted >> from it. >> >> I will be happy if we can nudge the world a little bit in our >> direction, >> particularly towards greener policies. But I am not holding my >> breath. >> >> Rob >> >> *The asterisk is for an anecdote. I was tangentially involved in a >> project to start up internet based learning for midwives in the >> north of >> Nigeria, where there is no infrastructure, no electricity, etc etc. >> They >> equipped a school room with solar powered laptops and screens, and a >> >> solar powered router to connect to online learning materials. We >> have a >> photograph of the first few days of the class, which we cannot use. >> It >> shows the room from the back with a midwife at every screen. The >> instructor is standing at the back of the class with his head in his >> >> hands. He looks as if he is crying. He told us that he had his head >> in >> his hands because he could not believe the beauty of the scene in >> front >> of him. >> >> On 2020-05-20 14:31, Tom Richardson wrote: >>> Hello Annalisa >>> Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with >> almost >>> none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the >>> capacity of human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal >>> self-interested behaviour acted out by the same person, I have no >>> doubts. >>> >>> * What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the >> environment >>> created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the >>> widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in >> which >>> such learning takes place?'. >>> * What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these >> changes >>> for the _perezhivanie _of the learner, which shapes her social >> being >>> and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', >>> 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her >>> society? >>> >>> Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I >> haven't >>> yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot >>> grasp what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. >>> I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if >> that is >>> within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it >> rest. >>> >>> Kind regards >>> Tom >>> >>> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Tom, >>>> >>>> Thank you for posting the link. >>>> >>>> I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is >>>> fairly dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. >>>> Schmidt. That is not to say that she is far from the mark, but we >>>> are not just unthinking pods in the matrix, powerless to >> articulate >>>> the way technology is distended into our lives. >>>> >>>> I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. >>>> It reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is >>>> inevitable (and resistance is futile). I say this because she >>>> presumes this narrative has become the hegemony upon which she >>>> reacts. It is far too doomsday. >>>> >>>> At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling >> for >>>> power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. >>>> >>>> Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt >> with >>>> Bill Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by >>>> projects such as the humble toilet in geographic locations >> without >>>> waste treatment facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we >>>> might as well include Warren Buffet in that equation, because the >>>> lionshare of the funding flowing into the Gates Foundation is >> from >>>> him. Buffet did not make his billions through technology, unless >> you >>>> want to include the telephone). >>>> >>>> I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to >>>> encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to >> grow >>>> coffee to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the >> violence >>>> that coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. >>>> >>>> Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general >>>> problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the >>>> chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. >>>> >>>> She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis >>>> of COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange >> mastermind >>>> move to control the world. >>>> >>>> Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the >>>> bleakness of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is >>>> correct or accurate. Technology will always be a tool for use. It >> is >>>> not monolithic. There is the off button. We do still have a >>>> democracy and processes in place to deliberate the way forward. >>>> >>>> As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance >> to >>>> control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in >> the >>>> armor, or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always >> use >>>> technology in ways that were not anticipated, but just as that >> can >>>> be assertion can be construed as dismal, it can also mean good >> news, >>>> that we always have agency to decide how to use our tools. >>>> >>>> Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. >>>> Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory >>>> education for disabled children with his goals for flattening the >>>> classroom into two-dimensional online learning screens. He will >>>> never be able to walk around that law. >>>> >>>> So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative >>>> simply does not hold water for me. >>>> >>>> I hope this might be a little encouraging. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> ------------------------- >>>> >>>> FROM: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> on behalf of mike cole >>>> >>>> SENT: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM >>>> TO: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> SUBJECT: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>> >>>> [EXTERNAL] >>>> >>>> Hello Tom Richardson >>>> This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating >>>> Chat Project" that has just finished its >>>> planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human >>>> development, and theories of "Development >>>> in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was >>>> replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. >>>> Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as >> well >>>> as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the >>>> world. >>>> The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number >>>> of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the >>>> opportunities. >>>> In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in >>>> the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally >> forced >>>> >>>> a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house >>>> of most members of this discussion over the years, >>>> is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite >>>> relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of >>>> production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions >> (home, >>>> school, work,). >>>> >>>> We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing >>>> social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This >>>> rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. >>>> >>>> Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been >>>> about for 100 years. >>>> Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start >>>> providing working models of effective practices that do NOT >>>> assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. >>>> >>>> Thanks for asking. >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Greetings Xmca-ers >>>>> I would like to raise a question. >>>>> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the >>>>> major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health >>>>> protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital >>>>> Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I >>>>> wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human >>>>> development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences >>>>> on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening >>>>> recently: >>>>> >>>>> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. >> Two >>>>> weeks after that article appeared, he described [1] the ad-hoc >>>>> home schooling programming that teachers and families across the >>>>> country had been forced to cobble together during this public >>>>> health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote >> learning?. >>>>> >>>>> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: >>>>> how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able >>>>> to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when >>>>> combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!S24LM1H7lowdPfDbMsEsQcUKNP8ezV7u2ZEpio1LRZEKkbPLR1GSaJgN9Ky9WaJNTPiOcg$ >> >>>>> [2] >>>>> >>>>> Just asking >>>>> Tom Richardson >>>>> Middlesbrough UK >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what >>>> fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>> For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu >> [1] >>>> [3]. >>>> For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu [2] [4]. >>>> For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net [3] [5]. >>> >>> >>> Links: >>> ------ >>> [1] >>> >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtAyGVuRQME__;!!Mih3wA!VRgkzssOuSyNvpVQWR2QH7dShhiXD5eWtYs2HahNwv_pKUU7G9GOQZMrzIpGsa_-KDBGFw$ >>> [2] >>> >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!VRgkzssOuSyNvpVQWR2QH7dShhiXD5eWtYs2HahNwv_pKUU7G9GOQZMrzIpGsa-SnnFGDg$ >>> [3] http://lchc.ucsd.edu >>> [4] http://lchcautobio.ucsd.edu >>> [5] >>> >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!V4rtgUKjjshdiOxbIML_kuerunhUbHYomcCKiRVA5FkPs1WJIJwbuavyFoG613bJeWFP-g$ > > -- > > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what > fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman > Rushdie--------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!S9qcap6TqjfdwVH4tKTDRcrmtOixsOIeAQtWQf5kbwZ1hKvamSkqTvFVQPvsiUJtT6ACYw$ [3] > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com [4] > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu [1]. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu [2]. > > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://lchc.ucsd.edu > [2] http://lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > [3] > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QEj6dEIm3fWSx_ACQQ_MzmIB8BNHT4gbKPVvpNxP0RtC6hPwv8yewaCxK1CwE9ydttNsSA$ > [4] > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://re-generatingchat.com__;!!Mih3wA!QEj6dEIm3fWSx_ACQQ_MzmIB8BNHT4gbKPVvpNxP0RtC6hPwv8yewaCxK1CwE9wBp3v7eg$ From annalisa@unm.edu Wed May 20 11:10:53 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 18:10:53 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: <71876107-fad8-3a23-2bd9-35d13d923268@marxists.org> References: <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> <36147263-58ba-6908-ce60-bc367719772e@marxists.org> , <71876107-fad8-3a23-2bd9-35d13d923268@marxists.org> Message-ID: Hi Andy, I'm afraid you have lost me when it comes to discussions about reality. I have a completely different take on it. But for the sake of a more genuine reply, I understand that this is your accepted understanding of reality, the one that you accept. I don't think we as humans (nevermind of various societies) will ever be able to come to a definitive stance of what reality IS, because it is much bigger than all of us. Just as the human's sense of reality changes over History (as we can see in various literatures and even how the world represents time and space in many artworks over the historical time), it will continue to change as we move "forward" into the future. Perhaps I'm still holding out with Kant's POV (pun intended). (Yes, one day someone will "break" Einstein's Theory of Relativity, as he "broke" Newton's laws, because the universe is also changing beneath us, not just our understanding of it.) In Vedic understanding, that which is real is true. What is true? that which cannot be summarily denied. In that cosmology, there are defined several realities that sort of fit together, like nested boxes, and they function according to aspect. From the *absolute reality* all that is here is one, it is not a perspective that we can experience directly because of our limited minds and bodies. We see the multiplicity and many cannot accept that there is only one "thing" here. That's OK. That has to do with understanding (not belief), and one's desire to know. Then there is the *objective reality*, the one that is shared between many, the one where we observe gravity behaving the same, the sun rising in the East (even though it does not actually rise at all), etc. Setting all that aside for the moment, there is also a creation, from the standpoint of Isvara (who we might call God, or the lord*), and then the creation from the jiva (the individual, sentient being). [ *One need not accept the existence of God to follow this argument, nor am I asking for you to accept the existence of God. ] Creation is "shrishti" in Sanskrit, but creation is not reality, it is dependent upon reality. This could be also called subjective reality, and it follows this depends upon which subject you orient from, but I think it is telling that the word shrishti translates into English is "creation", because that would map to your concept of a socially construction of reality. Shrishti also means "the universe," "nature," and likely many other meanings, as Sanskrit has words that are highly polysemantic, depending upon context (not that other languages don't have this attribute, it's just Sanskrit has it in spades). OK. Now a loose illustration to show the difference between creation and reality: In a sense, the sun going round the earth is a "creation" that is dependent upon the reality that the earth is actually going round the sun. The illusion of the sun going round the earth is neither real nor unreal. So in cases such as this, we use the word "mithya", which means "dependent reality," it is neither real nor unreal, it is both at the same time (like Wittgenstein's duck-rabbit). We say mithya because there is no denying that the sun rises in the east, and yet what is east? what is the horizon? As we critically examine the basis of the sun rising it dissolves into nothing, because it is illusory, yet it is not something that can be dismissed wholesale as totally unreal. Such is the nature of mithya. Our subjective creation of the narrative of "The sun rises in the East" is useful to us. We use that to base many other constructs, like the other three directions, how to draw maps, how to orient a compass, how to navigate the earth, etc. So it has a good basic function that would be silly to deny, and that is because our perspective from earth is of more value to us than that which might be closer to the "absolute" reality of the perspective of the sun being at rest and the earth traveling about it. Both can co-exist without conflict. There is also a concept of the transactional world, this is "vyavaharika" which pertains to business practices, customs, the secular, legalities, practicalities, and so on. I am not sure if politics could be included in this meaning, but it seems it might fit into that meaning cozily. Vyavaharika is its own dependent reality, it's neither objective, nor subjective, because it has to do with social function. It's whatever works in a given context. It may or may not be moral. Now concerning inquiry, something you posture as a "weapon" (i.e., practical and theoretical critique), which I'm not sure is really necessary to pose as a weapon, because inquiry is a basic function that all humans have access to, without requiring a radical stance. Just consider the child who always asks "Why?" Indeed we should always welcome inquiry, as one might welcome a weary and hungry world traveler, who might be able to bring us information and insight we otherwise might not ever experience or come to know. Doubt is another valuable friend to us, because it means we see without seeing and because of that, we desire more clarity. Doubt is not something that can be denied. It's there or not there. But it is also difficult to rest with a doubt until it is addressed. And that itself has its own power, which we should always have faith in, because doubt can shake us more than an earthquake. I would be curious what is the Marxist discussion that examines the nature of doubt. If you know I'd like to hear it. In any case, am I safe to say that the push and pull between inquiry and doubt may correspond to your (or Hegel's) "immediate mediation?" In an open honest conversation between the two friends of doubt and inquiry we will always find solace for all problems. If only we let the two mediate together in cooperation, and without obstruction. What I find of high alarm in these times, is not that we are being gaslighted about what is reality (though yes, that is happening and it is alarming in its own way), it is that we might not be doing enough to protect our friends of doubt and inquiry, and to protect them should not be a radical act, but seen as our basic birthright, as integral to being human. I feel that were we to move forward from that point, rather than in getting in imbroglios about what is reality, we will always have our space/place with plenty of accommodation to be who we are. I should always be welcomed to ask a question, and I should always be welcomed to voice a doubt. And you and everyone else should too. If we have that kind of society, I feel that it would be more just and equitable than is the case now. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 7:39 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] Of course, Annalisa, I agree that Science is a moral practice, but that is not what is at issue here. Two issues concern me with what you have said: (1) the question of "who decides?" and (2) the quantification of development as in "more evolved" bringing with it the implication of moral value attached to development. (1) The discovery of the "social construction of reality" was an achievement of the Left, the progressives, with people like the Critical Psychologists, the theorists of postmodernism and post-structural feminists in the 1970s an 80s, who exposed how taken-for-granted facts along with the truths of Science were on closer inspection ideological products of dominant social groups. Of course, how reality is seen is an inseparable part of how reality is. This insight led to a range of powerful theoretical and practical critiques of all aspects of society. Feminists offered an alternative way of interpreting reality as a powerful lever for changing that reality by undermining patriarchal structures and certainties. So far so good. But today, in 2020, it is not progressives who are asking "who decides?" and calling into question the very idea of truth and fact: it is Donald Trump and Rudi Giuliani. Quite honestly, this outcome was always implicit in the postmodern and poststructuralist critique. Or, could I say: "Donald Trump is a more evolved form of Judith Butler" if I thought in those terms, which I don't. Hegel takes up this problem with the maxim: "Everything is both immediate and mediated." Yes, social interests dominant in a certain social domain by definition determine what is true in that domain (though remember, every social domain is finite and has its boundaries). But that is not just by saying something about an independently existing reality which can be subject to any number of alternative representations (as Kant would have it), but rather the dominant social interests determine that reality itself. They do that both immediately and through the ideal representation of that reality which is part of that reality. You can't "decide" by a purely discursive moves - you have to change that reality. You do that with the weapons of both theoretical and practical critique. What this means is that you can study the documents (assuming you weren't personally present) of some past dispute and see with your own eyes how and why some people formulated new word meanings, and began to use these new word meaning(s) in their own communication, and thereby facilitated others from using this word meaning, and the relevant concepts, in their work, and so on. (2) As perhaps I have illustrated in my example above that there is no implication of "higher" in development. In my own education, it was Sylvia Scribner's "Uses of History" (1985) which explained this to me. "Higher" implies comparison and comparison in turn implies interchangeability. For example, if I was considering whether to emigrate to the US or France, I might consider public safety as a metric and decide that France was superior to the US and make my decision accordingly. Or, I might consider job availability for an English-speaking monoglot like me as the metric, and decide that the US was superior to France. But to decide that the US is superior to France or vice versa without the choice and the relevant metric is the moral judgment which neither you nor I find acceptable. They're just different. Understanding word meanings and concepts entails an analysis of both how the word is used in the field in question, and the history as to how it came to be so. Using the concept of "germ cell," I can work my way back and forth through an etymological field, forensically, like a detective, until I can connect the particular use of the word which emerged as a germ cell at some earlier time, in some situation where the implication of choosing that word meaning was abundantly clear to all, which allows me to see why someone felt the need (now forgotten) to introduce the word meaning and what it's absence would mean here and now, where it is already taken for granted. My apologies for the unacceptably long message, which is much against my own mores, but I don't know how to clarify these issues more succinctly. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 20/05/2020 3:51 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: Hi Andy, I suppose the issue about being on a branch of evolution has more to do with who decides what the branch is. Is it time? or is it topical? or is it based upon the interlocutors? If we say one word usage is more "evolved" than another, I suppose I am just pushing back on that because who decides what is more evolved? Forgive me, but can we ever say that if something is more "evolved" it is actually better? What do we actually mean when we say something is evolved? What if one term lasts over a longer arc of time than another usage? It seems if we use the evolution rubric, it would be considered more "fit" than the one that is changing over the same period of time. I do find it helpful that you to bring up the germ cell and how that concept pertains to analysis. That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm glad to know that to assign the parentheses does entail an ideological move, and that that can't be escaped. As long as we know what the ideology is, there is transparency in our analysis. I do think moral evaluations are worth including on all discussions, not necessarily to forbid discussions or scientific pursuits, but to use as landmarks to keep our bearings. Scientific concepts have a way of not being inclusive of contexts (i.e., lived experiences) or being grounded, right? Perhaps this is what made Vygotsky such a humane and compassionate scientific thinker is that he could understand how scientific concepts can be abusive tools for oppression. Anchoring them in lived experience shows their validity. Would this be a fair statement to you, Andy? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:23 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] Annalisa, "where does history start"? Effectively there is no starting point, and the choosing of a starting point is always an ideological move. Foucault does this to great effect. Ilyenkov deals with this in his book "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's Capital" and explains the need for what he calls the "logical-historical method." To short circuit the complexities of reading Ilyenkov, in CHAT we rely on the identification of the unit of analysis or "germ cell" to anchor our historical investigation. "Sociogenesis" is just Latin for "social development," the word I used. But if you are going to ascribe a moral value to "evolution" and then reject the concept on that basis, you'd better also reject "development" and all the "geneses" and evolution of species by natural selection and all modern biology while you are at it. Alternatively, you could choose not to ascribe moral values to scientific concepts, then the whole of science is open to you. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 18/05/2020 3:25 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: Hi Andy (& VO's), I think that that was my point, that we cannot capture everything in the word to describe the theory. And that is because of the limit of our language. Even where genesis actually is, where something starts can be difficult to pinpoint. I mean where does History actually start? These words that you mention phylogenesis, ethnogenesis, ontogenesis, are words that are like brackets of a pair of parentheses. Who decides where to put them? (And why not sociogenesis?) I'm not sure it's correct to say the choice of a word locates the user on a branch of a cultural evolutionary tree, because then that starts to mean that one speaker is more evolved than another based on the use of a word. It might be better to say that the choice of a word locates the user to a particular context. I could live with that. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:27 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] You're never going to succeed in formally capturing the full scope of the theory in a word, Annalisa. "socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory" still leave out biology and Darwin, which is a part of our theory, too. It is sometimes said that human development is the coincidence of four processes: phylogenesis (i.e., evolution of the species), cultural development (ethnogenesis, the development of technology and language), social development (one and the same culture has different classes and political groups side by side) and ontogenesis (even twins can grow up very differently according to the experiences (perezhivaniya) they go through). I tried to describe this in: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/ontogenesis.htm__;!!Mih3wA!Rr2TXQEpKw6oQRBQC9oevUvOEbt7mvA_DR5wMq4BVGIo96dh7cJyjY4r-3ArJXZS3Uhrlw$ But if you look into the history of a word what you will inevitably find is that at some point (in time and social space) there was some dispute, and this dispute was either (1) resolved by both parties agreeing and marking this agreement by the coining of a new word meaning or the dropping of a word meaning altogether, or (2) there is a split and one or both sides of the split adopt a word meaning which distinguishes them from the other side (structuralism's favourite trope) or variations on the above scenarios. So the choice of a word tends to locate the user on a branch in the cultural evolutionary tree. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 17/05/2020 11:56 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: David K & VO's What pray-tell is an anthropologue? I am divided (pun intended) about saying that sociocultural = social + culture, when they are intertwined holistically. To me, sociocultural points to a space in between, or perhaps better said to a context of interactions between individuals (who form a society) that are easily accepted among them and practiced over time. We can conceptually parse out the social and the cultural, but don't we do that because of the words and not because of the ostensible reality going on interactionally? Can we always understand something by dissecting it into parts? Again, this seems to be the limit of language, not of the conceptual context or content. In a sense to use the term "sociocultural" is to grab the tail of the tiger. The tail of the tiger is still the tiger, but perhaps a more manageable one than to grab its head. Perhaps this is why Vygotskians just call themselves Vygotskians to align themselves with the source of the first theories rather than to later conceptions and other developments (i.e. Leontiev, etc). Just thinking out loud. Another argument is that if we want to be all inclusive, then we have to include tool-use, as it's not the social, the culture, and the history, but also the language and tools used. I realize some practitioners would say that language is no different than a tool, but I feel language is different, even though it may have a similar cognitive response in the mind as would using a tool. Activity suggests tool use, though not always. Consider dance, or storytelling, or going for a walk. How about: socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory??? Yes! I am writing this a little tongue in cheek. I hope you do not mind. Kind regards, Annalsia ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:14 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] It's a very domain-specific umbrella, like those cane-brollies that go with a bowler. "Sociocultural" is strongly preferred used in second language acquisition, thanks to the influence of Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf and Matthew Poehner; I have never seen "cultural historical" used in this literature. But "cultural-historical" is similarly preferred in psychology and anthropology, thanks to the influence of J.V. Wertsch, Mike Cole, Martin Packer and Andy Blunden; that's really why we are having this discussion on what "socio-cultural" might mean on a list largely populated by roving psychologists and nomadic anthropologues. Interestingly, the Francophones prefer "historico-cultural", using the argument that you can understand the process without the product but not the product without the process. I stopped using "sociocultural" because I thought it was redundant, but now I am really not sure of this: it seems to me that the relationship is a similar one--you can study society as process without studying its cultural product (e.g. as demographics, economics, statistics) but you can't really study culture without some understanding of the process of its formation. There was a similar disagreement in systemic functional linguistics between Halliday and Jim Martin over the term "socio-semiotic". Martin said that it was redundant, because there couldn't be any semiotic without society. Halliday rather flippantly replied that ants had a society without a semiotics, and at the time it seemed to me that this was a non sequitur, first of all because ants don't really have a society in our sense (precisely because there is no such thing as an ant history separate from phylogenesis on the one hand and ontogenesis on the other) and secondly because ants most definitely do have a semiotics, albeit one based on chemistry and not perception as ours is. It seems to me, in retrospect, that the relationship between the semiotic and the social is much more like the relationship between the social and the biological, or even the biological and the chemical. The semiotic is a certain level of organization that the social has, but there are other levels, just as biology is a certain kind of chemical organization which does not exclude other, nonbiological ways organizing chemicals, and chemistry is a kind of physical organization which doesn't exclude sub-chemical organizations. Perhaps we can think of the relationship between culture and society in the same way? David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!Rr2TXQEpKw6oQRBQC9oevUvOEbt7mvA_DR5wMq4BVGIo96dh7cJyjY4r-3ArJXaxlhLncA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Rr2TXQEpKw6oQRBQC9oevUvOEbt7mvA_DR5wMq4BVGIo96dh7cJyjY4r-3ArJXbh4Cmx9Q$ On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David H Kirshner > wrote: 4. As an umbrella term for any sociogenetic approach. Isn?t that its current usage? David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? Hi Andy, and VO's, What fascinates me is that the word "sociocultural" has a lot of different facets in terms of how the word was used in different contexts. It seems there are three I've been able to pick out. 1. as a derisive term in early Soviet history. 2. as an empowering term from Latin American voices. 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist "brand" at the height of the Cold War in the US. I'm not sure if I've done justice in the manner that I've represented that, but it is a well-intended attempt. Are there others? What I don't understand fully is whether there must be ONE explanation how the term came to be, or ONE definition of what it actually means. Can't it be polysemantic? polycontextual? If that is what's happening, then it makes sense that there would be an ongoing controversy about which one is the right definition or reason for not using it, depending on the interlocutor. If we are to talk about who used the term first, and that's where the value/authority holds, then all that tells us is that for those who value who used the term first. that's where the authority is. If we talk about the emotional attachment of the word as it is used in context and that's where the value/authority holds, then that tells us for those who value the most personal attachment to the word, that's where the authority is. If we talk about how the word was used functionally, where the value/authority holds in its efficacy, then all that tells is that for those who value whether the word works or not, that's where the authority is. I'm not sure one can put any of one these over the other two (or if there are more than that, if there are more). All we can say I suppose is whether in a particular context is the word "sociocultural" appropriate or not? I do find that this debate has begun to have its own life, this debate over the use of a word. I've begun doubt it will ever cease. One day the discussion will be how one used to debate about the term, first everyone was this way about the word, than they were that way about the word, and many large camps were formed in XXXX year to say why the word should not be used, but then X years later other large camps formed to say it is fine to use the word. I suppose it will only be when the debate ceases will it come to pass that the debate will be forgotten. But will that cessation solidify the use or non-use of the word? I understand the reasons for saying "cultural psychology." But for those swimming in a culture where behaviorism is considered the soul of psychology, adding "cultural" becomes a sad necessity. Even then, that necessity only depends upon how one sees culture, as either as an additive, an integral ingredient of psychology, or its basis. I believe I've read on the list that one should be able to say "psychology" and just *know* that it includes culture. I don't think we are there yet. Then that would be my argument to use "sociocultural" to understand it includes history. CHAT is sort of a defensive term (well, it is an acronym). But then... it leaves out "social" and is that OK? We certainly should not say sociocultural historical activity theory because that acronym is very unfulfilling. What is nice about CHAT though is that to chat is an activity of speech, and there is a implied meaning that also pertains to Vygotskian theories, and therefore meaningful. In a sense, it's not the meaning that we are arguing over, but how the limitations of our particular language fails to convey a meaning with such precision that it thereby to parses away any other inappropriate meaning. I'm just not sure that the project is one that can be achieved successfully, even if it succeeds for an interim. At the same time I can see why story of the elephant and the blind men also have a part to play in our understandings and assumptions. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] Annalisa, I have only been talking and writing about Vygotsky and co. since about 2000 and have been openly Marxist since the 1960s (indeed, Vygotsky is core to how I understand Marx) and never had any reason not to be. But it is true that when Mike first went to Moscow, it was at the height of the Cold War, and when he and others first brought Vygotsky's ideas to the USA, there was a lot of resistance to their Marxist content. I think the naming issue only arose as Vygotsky and the others began to build a real following. The issues with the choice of name change over the years, as you say. I prefer" CHAT," but sometimes I use "Cultural Psychology" and sometimes I use "Activity Theory" depending on the context. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: Andy, et al, I sort of came to this a little late in the thread, but I can offer that Vera John-Steiner didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian theory, but as I learn more about the word (thank you Mike), I can see how once a word is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard for the association to be broken. I think it's that way with words all the time coming and going out of favor, or meanings shifting, like the game of telephone, but across generations and cultures. Might I contribute to the discussion by asking whether the use of "sociocultural" was also a means of making the theories more available in the West (at least in the US). It seems there was redscare (you are welcome read the double entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as you like) prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the Marxist "brand" to access the actual theories on child development? In other words, to depoliticize the science? I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but as time passes, I can see its problems. For me, I had preferred the word because historical was always a given for me. In concern of the here and now, the real difficulty I had thought was understanding the social- how interactions between the child and the caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the -cultural, how the culture impacts thought, those things are more of the micro level, but also sociocultural, how the two also can interact and influence one another and that combined bears its own signature on the mind and its development. As far as History (capital H) that is sort of difficult to measure when we are talking about child development as there is very little history that a child has, unless we are talking about genetics, I suppose. Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect and am enriched by the discourse in which we now we find ourselves immersed about it so thanks to all for this. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. Jim Wertsch said: Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? or ?cultural-historical.? Mike Cole told me: In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: I should have reported progress with my question. Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin referred to on his academia.edu page for us all to read. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!Rr2TXQEpKw6oQRBQC9oevUvOEbt7mvA_DR5wMq4BVGIo96dh7cJyjY4r-3ArJXbJACBKgQ$ As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the components more than others and he was acting nominally as a psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these components. I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. Chuck ---- ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. History will judge. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!Rr2TXQEpKw6oQRBQC9oevUvOEbt7mvA_DR5wMq4BVGIo96dh7cJyjY4r-3ArJXb6LK5AUg$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!Rr2TXQEpKw6oQRBQC9oevUvOEbt7mvA_DR5wMq4BVGIo96dh7cJyjY4r-3ArJXaCTwlyzw$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!Rr2TXQEpKw6oQRBQC9oevUvOEbt7mvA_DR5wMq4BVGIo96dh7cJyjY4r-3ArJXY9tK0nNA$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!Rr2TXQEpKw6oQRBQC9oevUvOEbt7mvA_DR5wMq4BVGIo96dh7cJyjY4r-3ArJXbdDiX9VA$ "Pros and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so sure the cons outweigh the pros here. But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm more outsider than insider and don't really know. Thank you for any insight. Anthony On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer > wrote: I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their view it?s the best term: Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). Sociocultural studies of mind. Cambridge University Press. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action" published by Harvard University Press in 1991. Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and artefacts mediating action. Thanks again to all Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: Andy-- Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!Rr2TXQEpKw6oQRBQC9oevUvOEbt7mvA_DR5wMq4BVGIo96dh7cJyjY4r-3ArJXam1Ysi1Q$ Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the years you'll get better granularity in the document search. On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. dk David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!Rr2TXQEpKw6oQRBQC9oevUvOEbt7mvA_DR5wMq4BVGIo96dh7cJyjY4r-3ArJXaxlhLncA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Rr2TXQEpKw6oQRBQC9oevUvOEbt7mvA_DR5wMq4BVGIo96dh7cJyjY4r-3ArJXbh4Cmx9Q$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer > wrote: The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in English is this: A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use the term ?sociocultural? frequently. The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study of the Mexican. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: Andy: I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but here's what I got. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!Rr2TXQEpKw6oQRBQC9oevUvOEbt7mvA_DR5wMq4BVGIo96dh7cJyjY4r-3ArJXacJZONBw$ " width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 frameborder=0 scrolling=no So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after 1992 is Vygotsky though. Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!Rr2TXQEpKw6oQRBQC9oevUvOEbt7mvA_DR5wMq4BVGIo96dh7cJyjY4r-3ArJXaxlhLncA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Rr2TXQEpKw6oQRBQC9oevUvOEbt7mvA_DR5wMq4BVGIo96dh7cJyjY4r-3ArJXbh4Cmx9Q$ On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" originated? Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200520/48202877/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Wed May 20 13:01:39 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 20:01:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Open letter in the Nation Message-ID: Hi Mike, I hope it's OK for me to redirect your message to the thread subject line... in case others wanted to discuss. I am glad you found the American University in Paris conference worthwhile. Talk about worldviews! I'm sure there is much content to CHAT about there. To include Tom Richardson's hue and cry over online learning (which I think is totally valid), this is one way "online learning" is perhaps providing the kind of access that we all believe education should have, that knowledge should be free. Of course, there is a dependency upon having an internet connection and a working, updated computer so as to access this free(ing) knowledge-sharing. But it works. More on that in another post. But with regard to the Nation's letter, I was particularly impressed with the photograph of the article, as it does show the unity and foment of all those young minds.This image is a prototypical representation of perezhivanie. I have to also amuse myself on the distinction between what you call the Old Left and the New Left, and what the Nation letter calls the New New Left and the Old New Left. I suppose the New New Left will one day be the New Old Left? These distinctions seem to be intended to communicate to the younger ones, "we were young once too, like you, and we also wanted to see change, significant change. We are not against you, but not because we are old." Is the deciding essential ingredient between the two groups age (as results from lived experience?) or are we discussing wisdom? Can the young be wise? (or... did Weber's advice work?) Kind regards, Annalisa xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Wed 5/20/2020 10:20 AM Looks relevant and interesting, Annalisa. Thanks for forwarding. I appreciated the piece in the Nation. Back in the day what is here the Old Left is what I grew up thinking was the New Left. Talk about "seeing life from both sides now!" I particularly liked their invocation of Weber at the end of the piece. It seems like advice very much appropriate to the moment. mike ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 6:16 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Open letter in the Nation Hello venerable others, I saw this and thought to pass it on it is from The Nation: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/letter-new-left-biden/__;!!Mih3wA!SKOVcQ19e7v51ETd_qU-HjIerjm9_OYkaFhUTwiRpAL6c6-KB9ihB9M-hn2PXfQ13T8yvw$ I learned about it from this opinion piece in the NYT here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/13/opinion/socialists-support-biden-election.html__;!!Mih3wA!SKOVcQ19e7v51ETd_qU-HjIerjm9_OYkaFhUTwiRpAL6c6-KB9ihB9M-hn2PXfQhMjkwLg$ Kind regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200520/2fd7d3c4/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Wed May 20 14:26:16 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 21:26:16 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Tom, May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ?? Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed by SL's prospects. In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of associations of place with learning. In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and constrain learning to books. We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of learning. I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged learning venues . Not with grade school. I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!SZSEYLggVkbsFhK2-SLWJT1oidlnry4UU07CU8yscHieuVTRIi4U3vkjwqo1GLJASWWZ1A$ It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be integrated with existing models. If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and surveillance is a constructive combination. There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and introspection, I will never accept that reality. To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers and pins." I just do not believe this narrative. We cannot give up. Is there a fight ahead? Yes. Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most definitely, yes. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Tom Richardson Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hello Annalisa Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. * What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such learning takes place?'. * What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes for the perezhivanie of the learner, which shapes her social being and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. Kind regards Tom On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello Tom, Thank you for posting the link. I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended into our lives. I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control the world. Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to deliberate the way forward. As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency to decide how to use our tools. Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply does not hold water for me. I hope this might be a little encouraging. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hello Tom Richardson This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat Project" that has just finished its planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human development, and theories of "Development in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most members of this discussion over the years, is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about for 100 years. Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing working models of effective practices that do NOT assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. Thanks for asking. mike On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson > wrote: Greetings Xmca-ers I would like to raise a question. In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening recently: "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks after that article appeared, he described the ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the country had been forced to cobble together during this public health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!SZSEYLggVkbsFhK2-SLWJT1oidlnry4UU07CU8yscHieuVTRIi4U3vkjwqo1GLIV21ERHw$ Just asking Tom Richardson Middlesbrough UK -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200520/fcdd4aa3/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed May 20 14:34:39 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 14:34:39 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Annalisa -- I believe that Tom's point is that such promising innovations are almost always possible on the fringes of educational practice, but that they are inevitably domesticated or stomped on by pre-existing regimes of power. That is what Adorno argued in the post-WWII. And many before and since. mike On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 2:29 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Tom, > > May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? > > Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We > looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, > once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always > a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed > by SL's prospects. > > In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, > I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that > students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one > another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological > fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would > ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. > > Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like > looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. > Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. > > What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, > which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open > space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was > perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. > > I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators > already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online > learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers > during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of > associations of place with learning. > > In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the > AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, > drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in > order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye > coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing > abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and > constrain learning to books. > > We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We > must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. > > I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the > situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of > learning. > > I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out > of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for > quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged > learning venues . Not with grade school. > > I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for > grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally > studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, > although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon > it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess > that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because > parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. > > I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, > nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. > > What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is > childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own > families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!RnRdGQWYFYHxAK38ym13_SVJ07gfBvADzdpt_v2fqpvjtY1AjFRdPxgCXwCy58n3O_LWvw$ > > > It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, > not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may > also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we > must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. > > It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom > to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the > classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. > > Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the > AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he > could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that > education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People > then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We > see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the > case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of > learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. > > If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to > already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support > well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be > integrated with existing models. > > If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way > to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money > will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. > > One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online > learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may > also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or > riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and > surveillance is a constructive combination. > > There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more > appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet > words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must > better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite > behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown > interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from > what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. > > This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a > mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and > introspection, I will never accept that reality. > > To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say > "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers > and pins." > > I just do not believe this narrative. > > We cannot give up. > > Is there a fight ahead? Yes. > > Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most > definitely, yes. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Hello Annalisa > Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost > none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of > human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour > acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. > > - What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment > created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the > widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such > learning takes place?'. > - What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes > for the *perezhivanie *of the learner, which shapes her social being > and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', > 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? > > Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet > listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what > is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. > I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is > within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. > > Kind regards > Tom > > > On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hello Tom, > > Thank you for posting the link. > > I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly > dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is > not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking > pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended > into our lives. > > I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It > reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and > resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has > become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. > > At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power > in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. > > Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill > Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as > the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment > facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include > Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding > flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his > billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). > > I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage > agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace > illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the > drug wars. These efforts are working. > > Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem > I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. > > She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID > (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control > the world. > > Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of > the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. > Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is > the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to > deliberate the way forward. > > As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to > control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, > or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in > ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be > construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency > to decide how to use our tools. > > Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt > will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled > children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional > online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. > > So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply > does not hold water for me. > > I hope this might be a little encouraging. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Hello Tom Richardson > This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat > Project" that has just finished its > planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human > development, and theories of "Development > in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by > the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. > Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to > actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. > The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of > essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. > In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most > dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced > a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most > members of this discussion over the years, > is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations > have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting > a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). > > We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social > science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp > speed and its invisible. > > Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about > for 100 years. > Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing > working models of effective practices that do NOT > assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. > > Thanks for asking. > mike > > > > On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > > Greetings Xmca-ers > I would like to raise a question. > In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major > questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, > democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international > competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan > approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to > these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been > happening recently: > > > "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks > after that article appeared, he described > the > ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the > country had been forced to cobble together during this public health > emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. > > The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids > learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote > and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will > help kids learn better.? " > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!RnRdGQWYFYHxAK38ym13_SVJ07gfBvADzdpt_v2fqpvjtY1AjFRdPxgCXwCy58nrie8MyA$ > > > > Just asking > Tom Richardson > Middlesbrough UK > > > > -- > > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, > translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. > For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net > > . > > > -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!RnRdGQWYFYHxAK38ym13_SVJ07gfBvADzdpt_v2fqpvjtY1AjFRdPxgCXwCy58nv0fJG_Q$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200520/fe38c1ed/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Wed May 20 14:52:57 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 21:52:57 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Mike, But then how is it that we even exist, having these conversations? If this were all true? There is within each individual the freedom to choose, we are not all automatons. I suppose what I mean to say is that if we say it's hopeless, then it is. So then why even bother? Why not just give up the ghost (and resignedly accept our bourgeois-reality as the medicine we are spoonfed)? Are we talking about the borg? Is resistance futile? To hell with that (narrative)! Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 3:34 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Annalisa -- I believe that Tom's point is that such promising innovations are almost always possible on the fringes of educational practice, but that they are inevitably domesticated or stomped on by pre-existing regimes of power. That is what Adorno argued in the post-WWII. And many before and since. mike On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 2:29 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hi Tom, May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed by SL's prospects. In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of associations of place with learning. In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and constrain learning to books. We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of learning. I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged learning venues . Not with grade school. I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!ViqhNHXErg5CLTN1kbyOfN36rKXGk1Zj5bNF7HJE0GH4J1TE6Y7ThjCCEusaONEMs9D3hA$ It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be integrated with existing models. If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and surveillance is a constructive combination. There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and introspection, I will never accept that reality. To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers and pins." I just do not believe this narrative. We cannot give up. Is there a fight ahead? Yes. Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most definitely, yes. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hello Annalisa Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. * What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such learning takes place?'. * What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes for the perezhivanie of the learner, which shapes her social being and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. Kind regards Tom On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello Tom, Thank you for posting the link. I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended into our lives. I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control the world. Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to deliberate the way forward. As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency to decide how to use our tools. Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply does not hold water for me. I hope this might be a little encouraging. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hello Tom Richardson This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat Project" that has just finished its planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human development, and theories of "Development in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most members of this discussion over the years, is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about for 100 years. Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing working models of effective practices that do NOT assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. Thanks for asking. mike On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson > wrote: Greetings Xmca-ers I would like to raise a question. In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening recently: "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks after that article appeared, he described the ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the country had been forced to cobble together during this public health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!ViqhNHXErg5CLTN1kbyOfN36rKXGk1Zj5bNF7HJE0GH4J1TE6Y7ThjCCEusaONGvkZ9oiA$ Just asking Tom Richardson Middlesbrough UK -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net. -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!ViqhNHXErg5CLTN1kbyOfN36rKXGk1Zj5bNF7HJE0GH4J1TE6Y7ThjCCEusaONENC_4tgQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200520/b45f732e/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Wed May 20 15:15:14 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 22:15:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] The architecture of classrooms Message-ID: Hello VO's on the XMCA list, I regret if you tire of my posts, but in light of these Kleinian worries, I wanted to point out one possible area where education innovation has succeeded, albeit under the radar. I am curious to open that up to conversations here. Namely, what have been the consequences of the placement of tables and chairs in the grade-school classroom. I know that many say that the millennials are "entitled" and yes, that is a problematic assertion to me, but I have wondered if this might have to do with how millennials may be the first generation of learners who learned in classrooms where tables and chairs were arranged in circles, and/or clusters, and not in regimented the rows and columns that I, and perhaps you, grew up with. Would this in and of itself create a more social-learning/ Would it foster confidence, team-building, and the kinds of zopeds we hope and pray for (whether formally constructed or not?) I feel that this generation (millennials) shares more, and is less competitive, and though I may be harmful by speaking too generally (I don't mean to be that), they seem to have some contempt to boomers, as they believe they sold out and are selfish. I do not blame them for saying this, though oddly selfishness is a different shade of "entitlement." Still I wonder for an educational setting that fostered competition in classrooms where students were punished for sharing answers, or for learning together in the classroom in a playful arc, is it possible this might be rooted with the placement of tables and chairs? We have before us to compare the models of sage on the stage (boomers) vs the guide on the side (millennials). Is this too simplistic? Could this be one way millennials have prospered socially, where as a group, boomers cannot? Thanks in advance for your comments. Kind regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200520/1d88670e/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed May 20 15:21:25 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 15:21:25 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As I see it, you have arrived at the nub of the problem, Annalisa. The link below is paper I think has been linked here before that provides my answer to your question about 20 years ago. Since that time, both our gloomy predictions of fireflies gone dead *and* our hopes that our innovation might be appropriated in the ecological niche for which it was designed have both been confirmed *and* disconfirmed. Along the way, we have learned a ton about the way that hegemonic power operates to dismantle or erode your innovation. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/14557297/A_Utopian_methodology_as_a_tool_for_cultural_and_critical_psychologies_Toward_a_positive_critical_theory__;!!Mih3wA!Va57-VAgQzDk7kMKR8Rftbk9tTlbuWgLO2sJd0H9lwFJgWnRUI_8VolhRSQv0c8RZaWDgQ$ I have to bail on this discussion. I have violated by own MCAetiquette of making room for other voices. Its certainly a timely topic I believe. mike On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 3:02 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Mike, > > But then how is it that we even exist, having these conversations? If this > were all true? > > There is within each individual the freedom to choose, we are not all > automatons. > > I suppose what I mean to say is that if we say it's hopeless, then it is. > > So then why even bother? > > Why not just give up the ghost (and resignedly accept our > bourgeois-reality as the medicine we are spoonfed)? Are we talking about > the borg? Is resistance futile? > > To hell with that (narrative)! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2020 3:34 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Annalisa -- I believe that Tom's point is that such promising innovations > are almost always > possible on the fringes of educational practice, but that they are > inevitably domesticated or > stomped on by pre-existing regimes of power. > > That is what Adorno argued in the post-WWII. And many before and since. > mike > > On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 2:29 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? > > Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We > looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, > once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always > a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed > by SL's prospects. > > In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, > I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that > students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one > another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological > fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would > ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. > > Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like > looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. > Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. > > What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, > which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open > space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was > perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. > > I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators > already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online > learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers > during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of > associations of place with learning. > > In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the > AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, > drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in > order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye > coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing > abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and > constrain learning to books. > > We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We > must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. > > I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the > situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of > learning. > > I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out > of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for > quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged > learning venues . Not with grade school. > > I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for > grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally > studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, > although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon > it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess > that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because > parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. > > I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, > nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. > > What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is > childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own > families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!Va57-VAgQzDk7kMKR8Rftbk9tTlbuWgLO2sJd0H9lwFJgWnRUI_8VolhRSQv0c-rirMxgQ$ > > > It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, > not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may > also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we > must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. > > It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom > to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the > classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. > > Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the > AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he > could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that > education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People > then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We > see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the > case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of > learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. > > If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to > already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support > well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be > integrated with existing models. > > If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way > to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money > will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. > > One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online > learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may > also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or > riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and > surveillance is a constructive combination. > > There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more > appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet > words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must > better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite > behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown > interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from > what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. > > This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a > mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and > introspection, I will never accept that reality. > > To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say > "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers > and pins." > > I just do not believe this narrative. > > We cannot give up. > > Is there a fight ahead? Yes. > > Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most > definitely, yes. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Hello Annalisa > Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost > none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of > human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour > acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. > > - What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment > created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the > widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such > learning takes place?'. > - What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes > for the *perezhivanie *of the learner, which shapes her social being > and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', > 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? > > Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet > listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what > is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. > I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is > within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. > > Kind regards > Tom > > > On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hello Tom, > > Thank you for posting the link. > > I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly > dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is > not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking > pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended > into our lives. > > I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It > reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and > resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has > become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. > > At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power > in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. > > Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill > Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as > the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment > facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include > Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding > flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his > billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). > > I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage > agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace > illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the > drug wars. These efforts are working. > > Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem > I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. > > She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID > (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control > the world. > > Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of > the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. > Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is > the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to > deliberate the way forward. > > As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to > control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, > or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in > ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be > construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency > to decide how to use our tools. > > Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt > will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled > children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional > online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. > > So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply > does not hold water for me. > > I hope this might be a little encouraging. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Hello Tom Richardson > This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat > Project" that has just finished its > planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human > development, and theories of "Development > in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by > the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. > Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to > actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. > The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of > essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. > In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most > dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced > a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most > members of this discussion over the years, > is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations > have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting > a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). > > We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social > science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp > speed and its invisible. > > Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about > for 100 years. > Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing > working models of effective practices that do NOT > assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. > > Thanks for asking. > mike > > > > On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > > Greetings Xmca-ers > I would like to raise a question. > In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major > questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, > democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international > competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan > approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to > these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been > happening recently: > > > "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks > after that article appeared, he described > the > ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the > country had been forced to cobble together during this public health > emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. > > The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids > learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote > and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will > help kids learn better.? " > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!Va57-VAgQzDk7kMKR8Rftbk9tTlbuWgLO2sJd0H9lwFJgWnRUI_8VolhRSQv0c_R9qQmPw$ > > > > Just asking > Tom Richardson > Middlesbrough UK > > > > -- > > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, > translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. > For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net > > . > > > > > -- > > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, > translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Va57-VAgQzDk7kMKR8Rftbk9tTlbuWgLO2sJd0H9lwFJgWnRUI_8VolhRSQv0c8LABwpaQ$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Va57-VAgQzDk7kMKR8Rftbk9tTlbuWgLO2sJd0H9lwFJgWnRUI_8VolhRSQv0c8LABwpaQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200520/26426537/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed May 20 16:16:55 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 08:16:55 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't think that photography really replaced painting, nor do I think that television ever replaced printing. In both cases, there was some encroachment and then an "involution" (a die-off) where functions overlapped. For example, we no longer pay for expensive family portraits, and the number of people who watch Downton Abbey is probably a lot greater than the number that read Anthony Trollope. But where functions did not redound (e.g. abstraction in painting and forensics in photography, advertising in television vs. psychological prose) there was enrichment and evolution. Crises only become pathological when involution fails to occur, and when the transitional forms thrown up at critical times become permanent ones. We cannot make salads from the cotyledons of our lettuce greens. I think that pathological tendency is exactly what Mr. Schmidt and his colleagues are pushing with their attempt to make on-line learning economically sustainable even when it is not educationally so. Rebecca Schuman recently pointed out that the expense of online learning to universities is greater than classroom learning (because it requires you to pay faculty AND tech support). So you can only turn a profit if you make it permanent (You have to do what Chairman Mao used to do in the old Peasant Studies Institute in revolutionary Guangzhou: "keep the blackboard and erase the students"). On-line learning in a way presents the OPPOSITE problem that photograhy presented to painting and television presented to printing. Photography is better at "unmediated" presentation than painting, and television rewards attention rather than concentration. Like photography and TV, face to face conversation is just a whole lot better at these. Much the same may be said about Mr. Schmidt's response to China and South Korea's response, which is explicitly and avowedly pro-individualism and implicitly and covertly pro-US imperialist. But whether or not Mr. Schmidt agrees to it, the Anglo-American approach of preventative-but-not-public medicine is going to involute, and very quickly too. One example will suffice. Yesterday KCDC released a report on the "reinfection" phenomenon--the fact that people who recover will test positive again in a few months. The Koreans found that this was due to deactivated virus particles which persist in the body but which are detected by oversensitive testing. This is REALLY big news--it essentially means that humans as a species will eventually survive Covid 19 in more or less the way we prevailed over the Black Death and small pox. But the study was done here in Korea, and it was publisihed only in Korean; the rest of the world had to read the abstract. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!TRjizV3Qo-rmLP8F-Hy7aO5AtWByRzlq1e7lAjC7euzs3e-_H0HlE9QKv9w1GQ5b_sFBew$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TRjizV3Qo-rmLP8F-Hy7aO5AtWByRzlq1e7lAjC7euzs3e-_H0HlE9QKv9w1GQ6IvWMRiA$ On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 7:02 AM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Mike, > > But then how is it that we even exist, having these conversations? If this > were all true? > > There is within each individual the freedom to choose, we are not all > automatons. > > I suppose what I mean to say is that if we say it's hopeless, then it is. > > So then why even bother? > > Why not just give up the ghost (and resignedly accept our > bourgeois-reality as the medicine we are spoonfed)? Are we talking about > the borg? Is resistance futile? > > To hell with that (narrative)! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2020 3:34 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Annalisa -- I believe that Tom's point is that such promising innovations > are almost always > possible on the fringes of educational practice, but that they are > inevitably domesticated or > stomped on by pre-existing regimes of power. > > That is what Adorno argued in the post-WWII. And many before and since. > mike > > On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 2:29 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? > > Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We > looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, > once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always > a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed > by SL's prospects. > > In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, > I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that > students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one > another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological > fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would > ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. > > Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like > looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. > Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. > > What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, > which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open > space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was > perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. > > I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators > already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online > learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers > during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of > associations of place with learning. > > In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the > AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, > drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in > order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye > coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing > abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and > constrain learning to books. > > We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We > must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. > > I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the > situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of > learning. > > I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out > of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for > quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged > learning venues . Not with grade school. > > I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for > grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally > studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, > although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon > it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess > that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because > parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. > > I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, > nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. > > What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is > childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own > families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!TRjizV3Qo-rmLP8F-Hy7aO5AtWByRzlq1e7lAjC7euzs3e-_H0HlE9QKv9w1GQ5PAiB9cg$ > > > It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, > not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may > also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we > must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. > > It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom > to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the > classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. > > Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the > AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he > could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that > education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People > then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We > see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the > case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of > learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. > > If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to > already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support > well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be > integrated with existing models. > > If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way > to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money > will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. > > One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online > learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may > also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or > riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and > surveillance is a constructive combination. > > There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more > appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet > words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must > better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite > behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown > interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from > what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. > > This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a > mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and > introspection, I will never accept that reality. > > To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say > "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers > and pins." > > I just do not believe this narrative. > > We cannot give up. > > Is there a fight ahead? Yes. > > Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most > definitely, yes. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Hello Annalisa > Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost > none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of > human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour > acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. > > - What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment > created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the > widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such > learning takes place?'. > - What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes > for the *perezhivanie *of the learner, which shapes her social being > and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', > 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? > > Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet > listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what > is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. > I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is > within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. > > Kind regards > Tom > > > On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hello Tom, > > Thank you for posting the link. > > I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly > dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is > not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking > pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended > into our lives. > > I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It > reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and > resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has > become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. > > At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power > in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. > > Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill > Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as > the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment > facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include > Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding > flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his > billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). > > I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage > agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace > illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the > drug wars. These efforts are working. > > Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem > I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. > > She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID > (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control > the world. > > Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of > the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. > Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is > the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to > deliberate the way forward. > > As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to > control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, > or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in > ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be > construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency > to decide how to use our tools. > > Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt > will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled > children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional > online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. > > So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply > does not hold water for me. > > I hope this might be a little encouraging. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Hello Tom Richardson > This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat > Project" that has just finished its > planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human > development, and theories of "Development > in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by > the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. > Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to > actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. > The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of > essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. > In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most > dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced > a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most > members of this discussion over the years, > is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations > have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting > a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). > > We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social > science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp > speed and its invisible. > > Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about > for 100 years. > Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing > working models of effective practices that do NOT > assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. > > Thanks for asking. > mike > > > > On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > > Greetings Xmca-ers > I would like to raise a question. > In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major > questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, > democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international > competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan > approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to > these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been > happening recently: > > > "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks > after that article appeared, he described > the > ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the > country had been forced to cobble together during this public health > emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. > > The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids > learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote > and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will > help kids learn better.? " > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!TRjizV3Qo-rmLP8F-Hy7aO5AtWByRzlq1e7lAjC7euzs3e-_H0HlE9QKv9w1GQ7s8kbwqA$ > > > > Just asking > Tom Richardson > Middlesbrough UK > > > > -- > > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, > translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. > For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net > > . > > > > > -- > > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, > translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TRjizV3Qo-rmLP8F-Hy7aO5AtWByRzlq1e7lAjC7euzs3e-_H0HlE9QKv9w1GQ7FdvVZzg$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200521/c3e82c5f/attachment.html From wendy.maples@outlook.com Thu May 21 08:51:26 2020 From: wendy.maples@outlook.com (Wendy Maples) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 15:51:26 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: <42f925b96789e37db90f71a5485b77c7@ariadne.org.uk> References: , <42f925b96789e37db90f71a5485b77c7@ariadne.org.uk> Message-ID: Hello from a sunny Lewes, England, The location and weather is notable because this is the kind of rare (pre-Anthropocene) day when parents and teachers feel sympathy for children-at-school-when-they-should-be-enjoying-themselves-outside. I'm joining this conversation to share two anecdotes, both about how learners, when exposed to a new learning environment may become better able to assess how learning works for them. 1. A friend (Philosophy Professor), asked my opinion on the potential for online teaching to be provided to her 14-year-old son by his conventional state school. I suggested a 'model' session, given likely limitations in terms of training, affordability, etc. She then asked her son which of his lessons he felt was worthwhile. Interestingly, her son immediately cited the teacher who ran Zoom sessions with breakout rooms -- which enabled him to socialise with friends in the context of a well-structured lesson, with an engaged teacher. Pretty much what I had described as a best-case in the circumstances. 2. Other friends have described with some wonderment how their teenaged children are organising peer support learning/ 'homework' sessions. Laptop open for homework; friends on Facetime on smartphone. The children are diligent -- sitting down to work at regular times, 'getting the work done' and helping each other -- and allowing themselves reasonable breaks. Such as taking advantage of a beautiful afternoon, by going on a bike ride. It's not all rosy, of course, but the points of contrast with 'industrial learning' that enable learners to become reflective learners could be a positive outcome. W ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of robsub@ariadne.org.uk Sent: 20 May 2020 17:57 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? My first thought when I read the OP was that this crisis is unlikely to teach us anything about remote and online learning per se. There has been a mass of research over the last thirty years and more about how it is best done, what effects it has, how it can best be deployed in different circumstances, including in the poorest places (Sugata Mitra is particularly powerful on this), including the possibilities and the effects in the developing world.* My second thought was that I was perhaps being a bit unjust because I suspect I had lost sight of how new online learning still is to a very large proportion of professional educators who ought to know it by now. I am basing that partly on a regular output of articles in the Guardian, and also a few I have spotted in the liberal American press, about how rushing to put everything online doesn't solve all your problems. As if we needed to be told ? but clearly some people do still need to be told that teaching and learning online is an entirely different animal to doing it face to face. But then I reverted again to my original position ? I doubt that we will learn anything from this about online learning per se that we do not already know. But it has struck me that a different lesson is waiting to be learned if we are willing to learn it. That lesson is not about remote learning or about inequality or about the uses of different tools. It is about the reinsertion of the family into educational practice, flying in the face of a hundred years or more of capitalist industrialist educational policy. To be honest, I doubt that it will stick, just as I doubt that much of what we are doing and learning will stick. Together with colleagues, I will be working my hardest to maintain the good things of this situation, and to undo the bad things that we left behind. But we will be up against very powerful forces in the capitalist industrial (and technological) monolith which will be working equally hard and much more powerfully to return us to the world pre-covid, because they benefitted from it. I will be happy if we can nudge the world a little bit in our direction, particularly towards greener policies. But I am not holding my breath. Rob *The asterisk is for an anecdote. I was tangentially involved in a project to start up internet based learning for midwives in the north of Nigeria, where there is no infrastructure, no electricity, etc etc. They equipped a school room with solar powered laptops and screens, and a solar powered router to connect to online learning materials. We have a photograph of the first few days of the class, which we cannot use. It shows the room from the back with a midwife at every screen. The instructor is standing at the back of the class with his head in his hands. He looks as if he is crying. He told us that he had his head in his hands because he could not believe the beauty of the scene in front of him. On 2020-05-20 14:31, Tom Richardson wrote: > Hello Annalisa > Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost > none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the > capacity of human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal > self-interested behaviour acted out by the same person, I have no > doubts. > > * What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment > created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the > widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which > such learning takes place?'. > * What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes > for the _perezhivanie _of the learner, which shapes her social being > and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', > 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her > society? > > Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't > yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot > grasp what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. > I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is > within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. > > Kind regards > Tom > > On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > >> Hello Tom, >> >> Thank you for posting the link. >> >> I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is >> fairly dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. >> Schmidt. That is not to say that she is far from the mark, but we >> are not just unthinking pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate >> the way technology is distended into our lives. >> >> I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. >> It reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is >> inevitable (and resistance is futile). I say this because she >> presumes this narrative has become the hegemony upon which she >> reacts. It is far too doomsday. >> >> At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for >> power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. >> >> Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with >> Bill Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by >> projects such as the humble toilet in geographic locations without >> waste treatment facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we >> might as well include Warren Buffet in that equation, because the >> lionshare of the funding flowing into the Gates Foundation is from >> him. Buffet did not make his billions through technology, unless you >> want to include the telephone). >> >> I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to >> encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow >> coffee to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence >> that coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. >> >> Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general >> problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the >> chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. >> >> She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis >> of COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind >> move to control the world. >> >> Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the >> bleakness of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is >> correct or accurate. Technology will always be a tool for use. It is >> not monolithic. There is the off button. We do still have a >> democracy and processes in place to deliberate the way forward. >> >> As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to >> control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the >> armor, or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use >> technology in ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can >> be assertion can be construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, >> that we always have agency to decide how to use our tools. >> >> Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. >> Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory >> education for disabled children with his goals for flattening the >> classroom into two-dimensional online learning screens. He will >> never be able to walk around that law. >> >> So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative >> simply does not hold water for me. >> >> I hope this might be a little encouraging. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> ------------------------- >> >> FROM: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of mike cole >> >> SENT: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM >> TO: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> SUBJECT: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> [EXTERNAL] >> >> Hello Tom Richardson >> This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating >> Chat Project" that has just finished its >> planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human >> development, and theories of "Development >> in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was >> replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. >> Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well >> as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the >> world. >> The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number >> of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the >> opportunities. >> In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in >> the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced >> >> a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house >> of most members of this discussion over the years, >> is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite >> relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of >> production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, >> school, work,). >> >> We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing >> social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This >> rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. >> >> Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been >> about for 100 years. >> Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start >> providing working models of effective practices that do NOT >> assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. >> >> Thanks for asking. >> mike >> >> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson >> wrote: >> >>> Greetings Xmca-ers >>> I would like to raise a question. >>> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the >>> major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health >>> protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital >>> Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I >>> wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human >>> development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences >>> on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening >>> recently: >>> >>> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two >>> weeks after that article appeared, he described [1] the ad-hoc >>> home schooling programming that teachers and families across the >>> country had been forced to cobble together during this public >>> health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. >>> >>> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: >>> how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able >>> to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when >>> combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " >>> >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fwww.theguardian.com*2Fnews*2F2020*2Fmay*2F13*2Fnaomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__*3B!!Mih3wA!S24LM1H7lowdPfDbMsEsQcUKNP8ezV7u2ZEpio1LRZEKkbPLR1GSaJgN9Ky9WaJNTPiOcg*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C9ee204f06b64476fe58208d7fcdf781b*7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa*7C1*7C0*7C637255909025630662&sdata=Hu0ZQFqxBWuUh6*2Fg3fS9xCAvLm6hxZ*2BGHmDrZncTW*2Fg*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!TrysLCC35ebURQTg4buf3my3WmzGjSF6ivXQRg2gPUne9ZixAYLV-iy7isir0YjOLkFnAw$ >>> [2] >>> >>> Just asking >>> Tom Richardson >>> Middlesbrough UK >> >> -- >> >> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what >> fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >> --------------------------------------------------- >> For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu >> [3]. >> For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu [4]. >> For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net [5]. > > > Links: > ------ > [1] > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fwww.youtube.com*2Fwatch*3Fv*3DXtAyGVuRQME__*3B!!Mih3wA!VRgkzssOuSyNvpVQWR2QH7dShhiXD5eWtYs2HahNwv_pKUU7G9GOQZMrzIpGsa_-KDBGFw*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C9ee204f06b64476fe58208d7fcdf781b*7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa*7C1*7C0*7C637255909025630662&sdata=0biAmhV55CrmoZvDhhUkCJ5*2BLireRWCk6SCDcv15T2w*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!TrysLCC35ebURQTg4buf3my3WmzGjSF6ivXQRg2gPUne9ZixAYLV-iy7isir0Yjml3dzZg$ > [2] > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fwww.theguardian.com*2Fnews*2F2020*2Fmay*2F13*2Fnaomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__*3B!!Mih3wA!VRgkzssOuSyNvpVQWR2QH7dShhiXD5eWtYs2HahNwv_pKUU7G9GOQZMrzIpGsa-SnnFGDg*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C9ee204f06b64476fe58208d7fcdf781b*7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa*7C1*7C0*7C637255909025630662&sdata=ZofWlBlixVsGB31hquC9H6VT4AJMO9aazQwdQUxlwXQ*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!TrysLCC35ebURQTg4buf3my3WmzGjSF6ivXQRg2gPUne9ZixAYLV-iy7isir0YgS17ZDgA$ > [3] https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Flchc.ucsd.edu*2F&data=02*7C01*7C*7C9ee204f06b64476fe58208d7fcdf781b*7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa*7C1*7C0*7C637255909025640656&sdata=2P9rsYyOPCiEA1KU94EZgN2TqkbISzkFe8ZOXq49GAw*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!TrysLCC35ebURQTg4buf3my3WmzGjSF6ivXQRg2gPUne9ZixAYLV-iy7isir0YhG3duqrQ$ > [4] https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Flchcautobio.ucsd.edu*2F&data=02*7C01*7C*7C9ee204f06b64476fe58208d7fcdf781b*7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa*7C1*7C0*7C637255909025640656&sdata=OeBELDeIYiMiylDFDYl2W0S*2Fvn1qBO33bcEdRJvrR3s*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!TrysLCC35ebURQTg4buf3my3WmzGjSF6ivXQRg2gPUne9ZixAYLV-iy7isir0YjHqEzmeA$ > [5] > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__http*3A*2F*2Fculturalpraxis.net__*3B!!Mih3wA!V4rtgUKjjshdiOxbIML_kuerunhUbHYomcCKiRVA5FkPs1WJIJwbuavyFoG613bJeWFP-g*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C9ee204f06b64476fe58208d7fcdf781b*7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa*7C1*7C0*7C637255909025640656&sdata=6OS4kY9UQkoC82KPS7pR0XE8j3GFJrU4a5EqIbYjvUU*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!TrysLCC35ebURQTg4buf3my3WmzGjSF6ivXQRg2gPUne9ZixAYLV-iy7isir0YivngXtwA$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200521/f9097bb0/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu May 21 09:16:38 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 09:16:38 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: <42f925b96789e37db90f71a5485b77c7@ariadne.org.uk> Message-ID: Sunny? In Lewes? Its like rainy in San Diego! :-) The use of breakout rooms provides a great way to create pedagogical activity such as jigsaw puzzle classrooms that Brown and Campione (and many others) have used in f-t-f classrooms. Vitali Rubstov did a Vygotskian version of the jigsaw puzzle some time ago that ought also be appropriateable. mike On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 8:53 AM Wendy Maples wrote: > Hello from a sunny Lewes, England, > > The location and weather is notable because this is the kind of rare > (pre-Anthropocene) day when parents and teachers feel sympathy for > children-at-school-when-they-should-be-enjoying-themselves-outside. > > I'm joining this conversation to share two anecdotes, both about how > learners, when exposed to a new learning environment may become better able > to assess how learning works for them. > > > 1. A friend (Philosophy Professor), asked my opinion on the potential > for online teaching to be provided to her 14-year-old son by his > conventional state school. I suggested a 'model' session, given likely > limitations in terms of training, affordability, etc. She then asked her > son which of his lessons he felt was worthwhile. Interestingly, her son > immediately cited the teacher who ran Zoom sessions with breakout rooms -- > which enabled him to socialise with friends in the context of a > well-structured lesson, with an engaged teacher. Pretty much what I had > described as a best-case in the circumstances. > 2. Other friends have described with some wonderment how their > teenaged children are organising peer support learning/ 'homework' > sessions. Laptop open for homework; friends on Facetime on smartphone. The > children are diligent -- sitting down to work at regular times, 'getting > the work done' and helping each other -- and allowing themselves reasonable > breaks. Such as taking advantage of a beautiful afternoon, by going on a > bike ride. > > It's not all rosy, of course, but the points of contrast with 'industrial > learning' that enable learners to become reflective learners could be a > positive outcome. > > W > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of robsub@ariadne.org.uk > *Sent:* 20 May 2020 17:57 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > My first thought when I read the OP was that this crisis is unlikely to > teach us anything about remote and online learning per se. There has > been a mass of research over the last thirty years and more about how it > is best done, what effects it has, how it can best be deployed in > different circumstances, including in the poorest places (Sugata Mitra > is particularly powerful on this), including the possibilities and the > effects in the developing world.* > > My second thought was that I was perhaps being a bit unjust because I > suspect I had lost sight of how new online learning still is to a very > large proportion of professional educators who ought to know it by now. > I am basing that partly on a regular output of articles in the Guardian, > and also a few I have spotted in the liberal American press, about how > rushing to put everything online doesn't solve all your problems. As if > we needed to be told ? but clearly some people do still need to be told > that teaching and learning online is an entirely different animal to > doing it face to face. > > But then I reverted again to my original position ? I doubt that we will > learn anything from this about online learning per se that we do not > already know. But it has struck me that a different lesson is waiting to > be learned if we are willing to learn it. That lesson is not about > remote learning or about inequality or about the uses of different > tools. It is about the reinsertion of the family into educational > practice, flying in the face of a hundred years or more of capitalist > industrialist educational policy. > > To be honest, I doubt that it will stick, just as I doubt that much of > what we are doing and learning will stick. Together with colleagues, I > will be working my hardest to maintain the good things of this > situation, and to undo the bad things that we left behind. But we will > be up against very powerful forces in the capitalist industrial (and > technological) monolith which will be working equally hard and much more > powerfully to return us to the world pre-covid, because they benefitted > from it. > > I will be happy if we can nudge the world a little bit in our direction, > particularly towards greener policies. But I am not holding my breath. > > Rob > > *The asterisk is for an anecdote. I was tangentially involved in a > project to start up internet based learning for midwives in the north of > Nigeria, where there is no infrastructure, no electricity, etc etc. They > equipped a school room with solar powered laptops and screens, and a > solar powered router to connect to online learning materials. We have a > photograph of the first few days of the class, which we cannot use. It > shows the room from the back with a midwife at every screen. The > instructor is standing at the back of the class with his head in his > hands. He looks as if he is crying. He told us that he had his head in > his hands because he could not believe the beauty of the scene in front > of him. > > > On 2020-05-20 14:31, Tom Richardson wrote: > > Hello Annalisa > > Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost > > none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the > > capacity of human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal > > self-interested behaviour acted out by the same person, I have no > > doubts. > > > > * What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the > environment > > created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the > > widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which > > such learning takes place?'. > > * What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these > changes > > for the _perezhivanie _of the learner, which shapes her social being > > and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', > > 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her > > society? > > > > Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't > > yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot > > grasp what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. > > I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is > > within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. > > > > Kind regards > > Tom > > > > On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar > > wrote: > > > >> Hello Tom, > >> > >> Thank you for posting the link. > >> > >> I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is > >> fairly dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. > >> Schmidt. That is not to say that she is far from the mark, but we > >> are not just unthinking pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate > >> the way technology is distended into our lives. > >> > >> I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. > >> It reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is > >> inevitable (and resistance is futile). I say this because she > >> presumes this narrative has become the hegemony upon which she > >> reacts. It is far too doomsday. > >> > >> At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for > >> power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. > >> > >> Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with > >> Bill Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by > >> projects such as the humble toilet in geographic locations without > >> waste treatment facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we > >> might as well include Warren Buffet in that equation, because the > >> lionshare of the funding flowing into the Gates Foundation is from > >> him. Buffet did not make his billions through technology, unless you > >> want to include the telephone). > >> > >> I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to > >> encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow > >> coffee to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence > >> that coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. > >> > >> Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general > >> problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the > >> chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. > >> > >> She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis > >> of COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind > >> move to control the world. > >> > >> Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the > >> bleakness of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is > >> correct or accurate. Technology will always be a tool for use. It is > >> not monolithic. There is the off button. We do still have a > >> democracy and processes in place to deliberate the way forward. > >> > >> As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to > >> control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the > >> armor, or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use > >> technology in ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can > >> be assertion can be construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, > >> that we always have agency to decide how to use our tools. > >> > >> Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. > >> Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory > >> education for disabled children with his goals for flattening the > >> classroom into two-dimensional online learning screens. He will > >> never be able to walk around that law. > >> > >> So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative > >> simply does not hold water for me. > >> > >> I hope this might be a little encouraging. > >> > >> Kind regards, > >> > >> Annalisa > >> > >> ------------------------- > >> > >> FROM: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> on behalf of mike cole > >> > >> SENT: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM > >> TO: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> SUBJECT: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > >> > >> [EXTERNAL] > >> > >> Hello Tom Richardson > >> This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating > >> Chat Project" that has just finished its > >> planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human > >> development, and theories of "Development > >> in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was > >> replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. > >> Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well > >> as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the > >> world. > >> The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number > >> of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the > >> opportunities. > >> In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in > >> the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced > >> > >> a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house > >> of most members of this discussion over the years, > >> is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite > >> relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of > >> production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, > >> school, work,). > >> > >> We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing > >> social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This > >> rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. > >> > >> Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been > >> about for 100 years. > >> Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start > >> providing working models of effective practices that do NOT > >> assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. > >> > >> Thanks for asking. > >> mike > >> > >> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Greetings Xmca-ers > >>> I would like to raise a question. > >>> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the > >>> major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health > >>> protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital > >>> Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I > >>> wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human > >>> development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences > >>> on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening > >>> recently: > >>> > >>> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two > >>> weeks after that article appeared, he described [1] the ad-hoc > >>> home schooling programming that teachers and families across the > >>> country had been forced to cobble together during this public > >>> health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. > >>> > >>> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: > >>> how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able > >>> to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when > >>> combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " > >>> > >> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fwww.theguardian.com*2Fnews*2F2020*2Fmay*2F13*2Fnaomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__*3B!!Mih3wA!S24LM1H7lowdPfDbMsEsQcUKNP8ezV7u2ZEpio1LRZEKkbPLR1GSaJgN9Ky9WaJNTPiOcg*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C9ee204f06b64476fe58208d7fcdf781b*7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa*7C1*7C0*7C637255909025630662&sdata=Hu0ZQFqxBWuUh6*2Fg3fS9xCAvLm6hxZ*2BGHmDrZncTW*2Fg*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!TSiy_8dEHStWs_7krM0-DgKkGQEh8soZu1rP1Ixzcx6xog1j03NzkC_BS7Q_h7AJR3lZPw$ > > >>> [2] > >>> > >>> Just asking > >>> Tom Richardson > >>> Middlesbrough UK > >> > >> -- > >> > >> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what > >> fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > >> --------------------------------------------------- > >> For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu > >> [3]. > >> For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu [4]. > >> For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net [5]. > > > > > > Links: > > ------ > > [1] > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fwww.youtube.com*2Fwatch*3Fv*3DXtAyGVuRQME__*3B!!Mih3wA!VRgkzssOuSyNvpVQWR2QH7dShhiXD5eWtYs2HahNwv_pKUU7G9GOQZMrzIpGsa_-KDBGFw*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C9ee204f06b64476fe58208d7fcdf781b*7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa*7C1*7C0*7C637255909025630662&sdata=0biAmhV55CrmoZvDhhUkCJ5*2BLireRWCk6SCDcv15T2w*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!TSiy_8dEHStWs_7krM0-DgKkGQEh8soZu1rP1Ixzcx6xog1j03NzkC_BS7Q_h7CzcODoEw$ > > > [2] > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fwww.theguardian.com*2Fnews*2F2020*2Fmay*2F13*2Fnaomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__*3B!!Mih3wA!VRgkzssOuSyNvpVQWR2QH7dShhiXD5eWtYs2HahNwv_pKUU7G9GOQZMrzIpGsa-SnnFGDg*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C9ee204f06b64476fe58208d7fcdf781b*7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa*7C1*7C0*7C637255909025630662&sdata=ZofWlBlixVsGB31hquC9H6VT4AJMO9aazQwdQUxlwXQ*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!TSiy_8dEHStWs_7krM0-DgKkGQEh8soZu1rP1Ixzcx6xog1j03NzkC_BS7Q_h7BuFTuq3g$ > > > [3] > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Flchc.ucsd.edu*2F&data=02*7C01*7C*7C9ee204f06b64476fe58208d7fcdf781b*7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa*7C1*7C0*7C637255909025640656&sdata=2P9rsYyOPCiEA1KU94EZgN2TqkbISzkFe8ZOXq49GAw*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!TSiy_8dEHStWs_7krM0-DgKkGQEh8soZu1rP1Ixzcx6xog1j03NzkC_BS7Q_h7DjnWvj4w$ > > > [4] > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Flchcautobio.ucsd.edu*2F&data=02*7C01*7C*7C9ee204f06b64476fe58208d7fcdf781b*7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa*7C1*7C0*7C637255909025640656&sdata=OeBELDeIYiMiylDFDYl2W0S*2Fvn1qBO33bcEdRJvrR3s*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!TSiy_8dEHStWs_7krM0-DgKkGQEh8soZu1rP1Ixzcx6xog1j03NzkC_BS7Q_h7CSJbT4KA$ > > > [5] > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__http*3A*2F*2Fculturalpraxis.net__*3B!!Mih3wA!V4rtgUKjjshdiOxbIML_kuerunhUbHYomcCKiRVA5FkPs1WJIJwbuavyFoG613bJeWFP-g*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C9ee204f06b64476fe58208d7fcdf781b*7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa*7C1*7C0*7C637255909025640656&sdata=6OS4kY9UQkoC82KPS7pR0XE8j3GFJrU4a5EqIbYjvUU*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!TSiy_8dEHStWs_7krM0-DgKkGQEh8soZu1rP1Ixzcx6xog1j03NzkC_BS7Q_h7BaN1PT7g$ > > > -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TSiy_8dEHStWs_7krM0-DgKkGQEh8soZu1rP1Ixzcx6xog1j03NzkC_BS7Q_h7A4jdV5nw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200521/242a1790/attachment.html From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Thu May 21 10:26:15 2020 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 18:26:15 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Annalisa Thank you for providing the details of your deep and committed background in distance / online learning. Mine is obviously shallow, which must have triggered you and 'Robsub' somewhat. But my questioning is in the newer context of the Covid19 threats to global society and the solutions being sought to extricate us from them. Governor Cuomo's conversation with Schmidt to examine solutions to the problems of present coping and future emergence from the pandemic is understandable. Two persons with power and a need to act, discuss what technology (in its widest hard- and software aspects) has to offer. In a democracy we can assess the solutions they propose and shape them to what we know to be as near to optimal for our society as possible. Your assertion of the efficacy of our agency which Klein seems to deny, with her politico-economic caveats. Schmidt has an evangelism for the potential of technology, but expressed with such restraint - he's no zealot. He also, in the video of the ECNY conversation with Marie-Josee Kravis, sees the lack of 'simplicity' in the three-tier democratic system of the US. He is a CEO with an organisation geared to problem-analysis, solution choices, and operational capability which can be put into action without delaying debate. He expressed no hostility to 'democracy' but as he said, it does not work simply. Klein reminds us to be wary if not alarmed, not because she is despairing (I believe), but because that direct entrepreneurial drive has profit making as its unavoidable aim. Whatever Schmidt's humanistic feelings, if profit doesn't result from his and his companies actions, they will not survive. That competitive drive is also present in his aspirations for international dominance (see his remarks on the rise of China's technology). So far, the sort of distance / online learning you have worked on, has been nested in the context of family and (normal) school life. That normality had implicit in it human values, customs and structures, whatever differences of class, race, gender and culture were present. The melding of state and enterprise in a newly-developing novel (5G?)high-tech 'solution' to mediating education presents a situation which need to be examined I believe. And my query, in that 'Kleinian' context was looking for answers from those, like yourself, with wide experience of previous technological 'answers' and their implications for the results within the learner. I affirm, along with you, the irrepressible resistance and sheer cantankerousness we humans bring to unjust situations. But such fighting back will often be unsuccessful in its aims, when the need to reduce labour time with new technology is driving events - Luddism and machine looms? Our human drive to change and adapt, our use of our agency to create or alter our lives must not be suppressed. But what Klein is reminding us of is just how tilted is the balance of power - the power of the state and behind it, the drive from the vast corporate world, for profit. Our agency is so often undone by the arbitrary intervention of those forces. Those are the forces which have destroyed what you name the 'sanctity' of teaching and learning. I would name it the basic need for those goals, but we share it. With the need to re-invigorate just such a precious resource, we will continue to fight like hell. Despite their mere humanness, corporations and states at present have greater knowledge and power than 'mere' citizens. My intervention in xmca discussion was really to say "They're looking to take even more control of daily life. Within academia, you can analyse how they are making such changes happen and continue to alert the rest of us, if you fear the consequences of their changes." Best wishes Tom On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 22:29, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Tom, > > May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? > > Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We > looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, > once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always > a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed > by SL's prospects. > > In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, > I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that > students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one > another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological > fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would > ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. > > Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like > looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. > Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. > > What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, > which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open > space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was > perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. > > I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators > already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online > learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers > during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of > associations of place with learning. > > In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the > AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, > drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in > order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye > coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing > abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and > constrain learning to books. > > We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We > must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. > > I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the > situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of > learning. > > I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out > of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for > quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged > learning venues . Not with grade school. > > I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for > grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally > studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, > although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon > it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess > that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because > parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. > > I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, > nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. > > What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is > childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own > families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!TtUqmpGOEamhdGENoUK38fnjlmNlYA4vSAq6ZV3ITNdBNfnqywwH7WxPSqjezRPe1JPZDg$ > > > It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, > not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may > also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we > must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. > > It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom > to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the > classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. > > Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the > AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he > could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that > education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People > then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We > see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the > case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of > learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. > > If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to > already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support > well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be > integrated with existing models. > > If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way > to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money > will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. > > One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online > learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may > also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or > riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and > surveillance is a constructive combination. > > There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more > appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet > words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must > better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite > behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown > interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from > what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. > > This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a > mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and > introspection, I will never accept that reality. > > To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say > "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers > and pins." > > I just do not believe this narrative. > > We cannot give up. > > Is there a fight ahead? Yes. > > Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most > definitely, yes. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Hello Annalisa > Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost > none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of > human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour > acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. > > - What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment > created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the > widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such > learning takes place?'. > - What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes > for the *perezhivanie *of the learner, which shapes her social being > and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', > 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? > > Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet > listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what > is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. > I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is > within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. > > Kind regards > Tom > > > On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hello Tom, > > Thank you for posting the link. > > I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly > dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is > not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking > pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended > into our lives. > > I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It > reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and > resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has > become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. > > At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power > in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. > > Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill > Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as > the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment > facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include > Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding > flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his > billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). > > I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage > agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace > illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the > drug wars. These efforts are working. > > Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem > I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. > > She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID > (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control > the world. > > Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of > the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. > Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is > the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to > deliberate the way forward. > > As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to > control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, > or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in > ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be > construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency > to decide how to use our tools. > > Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt > will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled > children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional > online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. > > So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply > does not hold water for me. > > I hope this might be a little encouraging. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Hello Tom Richardson > This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat > Project" that has just finished its > planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human > development, and theories of "Development > in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by > the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. > Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to > actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. > The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of > essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. > In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most > dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced > a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most > members of this discussion over the years, > is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations > have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting > a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). > > We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social > science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp > speed and its invisible. > > Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about > for 100 years. > Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing > working models of effective practices that do NOT > assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. > > Thanks for asking. > mike > > > > On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > > Greetings Xmca-ers > I would like to raise a question. > In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major > questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, > democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international > competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan > approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to > these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been > happening recently: > > > "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks > after that article appeared, he described > the > ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the > country had been forced to cobble together during this public health > emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. > > The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids > learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote > and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will > help kids learn better.? " > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!TtUqmpGOEamhdGENoUK38fnjlmNlYA4vSAq6ZV3ITNdBNfnqywwH7WxPSqjezROLzyC8bA$ > > > > Just asking > Tom Richardson > Middlesbrough UK > > > > -- > > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, > translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. > For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net > > . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200521/85ae5968/attachment.html From carolmacdon@gmail.com Thu May 21 11:05:46 2020 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 20:05:46 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi All Just a quick different perspective from an African country with the worst (measured) education system in the world. Here we can only make the assumption of online for the privileged few -- although the numbers are still to come in, I believe. What we are dealing with is a corrupt, vastly ineffectual public education system. We have 4,500 rural schools with no electricity or running water. Pit toilets. Given that the virus is present in urine and stools, how can we send those children back to school, washing hands in dirtying bowls? (By the way last year a 5 year old child fell into a pit toilet and drowned. (No swimming pools anywhere nearby.)) My (absent) tenant's mother is a home tutor for home-schooled children. She thinks that up to Grade 10, learners really benefit from some adult supervision. I remember a parental tribute two months back from a mother to all teachers. We expected the Minister for education to send the very little children back, but no, she stuck with Grade 7 and 12 going back at the beginning of June. A huge burden is being placed on the School Governing Bodies and teachers to get the sanitisation and cleaning right, and they are reeling. As you know our public school matriculation results are vastly inflated, so students at university nearly drown. But can the system add an extra year onto a system of 13 years by the expedient of repeating? Think of the building and staffing needs. Our schools write exams in November. We know the disparities between the online and rural learners are growing daily. This you will recognise as the micrcosm of the developed/developing world which is South Africa. And by the way, if that wonderful African experiment took place in South Africa, the head teacher would just as soon sell all the equipment and pocket the money. It has happened here, many times. When I said corrupt, I meant it. The civil service is vast and ineffective, police are inadequate. In my province, 65% of all public transactions take place with a bribe. Just my few details from South Africa. I would like to pick up some of David's points, but that is not the point of this post. Yes, and thank you for the accolades for our President's response to the pandemic. We all like him too. But as of today, Cape Town's biggest hospital has no more beds in ICU. We don't have the beds for the 40 000 people who are projected to die as we come gradually out of lockdown. BTW, there are ways to avoid Zoombombs, but not at the national level. You can restrict it by invitation only: you can tell you is doing the bombing that way, and would an invited guest do this. Carol ---------------------------- Carol A Macdonald Ph.D (Edin) 082 562 1050 Editlab.Net The Matthew Project: Reading to Learn On Thu, 21 May 2020 at 19:30, Tom Richardson wrote: > Hi Annalisa > > Thank you for providing the details of your deep and committed background > in distance / online learning. Mine is obviously shallow, which must have > triggered you and 'Robsub' somewhat. > > But my questioning is in the newer context of the Covid19 threats to > global society and the solutions being sought to extricate us from them. > > Governor Cuomo's conversation with Schmidt to examine solutions to the > problems of present coping and future emergence from the pandemic is > understandable. Two persons with power and a need to act, discuss what > technology (in its widest hard- and software aspects) has to offer. > > In a democracy we can assess the solutions they propose and shape them to > what we know to be as near to optimal for our society as possible. Your > assertion of the efficacy of our agency which Klein seems to deny, > with her politico-economic caveats. > > Schmidt has an evangelism for the potential of technology, but expressed > with such restraint - he's no zealot. He also, in the video of the ECNY > conversation with Marie-Josee Kravis, sees the lack of 'simplicity' in the > three-tier democratic system of the US. He is a CEO with an organisation > geared to problem-analysis, solution choices, and operational capability > which can be put into action without delaying debate. He expressed no > hostility to 'democracy' but as he said, it does not work simply. > > Klein reminds us to be wary if not alarmed, not because she is despairing > (I believe), but because that direct entrepreneurial drive has profit > making as its unavoidable aim. Whatever Schmidt's humanistic feelings, if > profit doesn't result from his and his companies actions, they will not > survive. That competitive drive is also present in his aspirations for > international dominance (see his remarks on the rise of China's technology). > > So far, the sort of distance / online learning you have worked on, has > been nested in the context of family and (normal) school life. That > normality had implicit in it human values, customs and structures, whatever > differences of class, race, gender and culture were present. The melding of > state and enterprise in a newly-developing novel (5G?)high-tech 'solution' > to mediating education presents a situation which need to be examined I > believe. And my query, in that 'Kleinian' context was looking for answers > from those, like yourself, with wide experience of previous technological > 'answers' and their implications for the results within the learner. > > I affirm, along with you, the irrepressible resistance and sheer > cantankerousness we humans bring to unjust situations. But such fighting > back will often be unsuccessful in its aims, when the need to reduce labour > time with new technology is driving events - Luddism and machine looms? Our > human drive to change and adapt, our use of our agency to create or alter > our lives must not be suppressed. But what Klein is reminding us of is just > how tilted is the balance of power - the power of the state and behind it, > the drive from the vast corporate world, for profit. Our agency is so often > undone by the arbitrary intervention of those forces. > > Those are the forces which have destroyed what you name the 'sanctity' of > teaching and learning. I would name it the basic need for those goals, but > we share it. With the need to re-invigorate just such a precious resource, > we will continue to fight like hell. Despite their mere humanness, > corporations and states at present have greater knowledge and power than > 'mere' citizens. My intervention in xmca discussion was really to say > "They're looking to take even more control of daily life. > Within academia, you can analyse how they are making such changes happen > and continue to alert the rest of us, if you fear the consequences of > their changes." > > Best wishes > Tom > > On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 22:29, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >> Hi Tom, >> >> May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? >> >> Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We >> looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, >> once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always >> a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed >> by SL's prospects. >> >> In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, >> I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that >> students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one >> another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological >> fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would >> ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. >> >> Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like >> looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. >> Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. >> >> What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, >> which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open >> space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was >> perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. >> >> I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators >> already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online >> learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers >> during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of >> associations of place with learning. >> >> In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the >> AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, >> drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in >> order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye >> coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing >> abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and >> constrain learning to books. >> >> We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We >> must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. >> >> I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which >> the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts >> of learning. >> >> I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but >> out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for >> quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged >> learning venues . Not with grade school. >> >> I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for >> grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally >> studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, >> although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon >> it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess >> that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because >> parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. >> >> I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, >> nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. >> >> What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is >> childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own >> families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!UQRsohbnIRLcq7MedGPyrxBCyT-r38VV2JiQxXhJG-MepalCkr0aAEyKwbvU8iQ9efb8ng$ >> >> >> It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, >> not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may >> also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we >> must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. >> >> It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the >> classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances >> that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. >> >> Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by >> the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that >> he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and >> that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. >> People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, >> etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it >> the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of >> learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. >> >> If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to >> already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support >> well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be >> integrated with existing models. >> >> If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another >> way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where >> money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and >> wasteful. >> >> One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online >> learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may >> also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or >> riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and >> surveillance is a constructive combination. >> >> There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more >> appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet >> words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must >> better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite >> behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown >> interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from >> what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. >> >> This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a >> mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and >> introspection, I will never accept that reality. >> >> To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say >> "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers >> and pins." >> >> I just do not believe this narrative. >> >> We cannot give up. >> >> Is there a fight ahead? Yes. >> >> Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most >> definitely, yes. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Tom Richardson >> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> >> Hello Annalisa >> Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost >> none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of >> human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour >> acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. >> >> - What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment >> created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the >> widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such >> learning takes place?'. >> - What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes >> for the *perezhivanie *of the learner, which shapes her social being >> and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', >> 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? >> >> Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet >> listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what >> is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. >> I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is >> within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. >> >> Kind regards >> Tom >> >> >> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> Hello Tom, >> >> Thank you for posting the link. >> >> I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly >> dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is >> not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking >> pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended >> into our lives. >> >> I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It >> reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and >> resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has >> become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. >> >> At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power >> in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. >> >> Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill >> Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as >> the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment >> facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include >> Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding >> flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his >> billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). >> >> I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to >> encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee >> to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that >> coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. >> >> Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem >> I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. >> >> She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of >> COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to >> control the world. >> >> Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of >> the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. >> Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is >> the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to >> deliberate the way forward. >> >> As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to >> control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, >> or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in >> ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be >> construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency >> to decide how to use our tools. >> >> Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt >> will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled >> children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional >> online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. >> >> So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply >> does not hold water for me. >> >> I hope this might be a little encouraging. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of mike cole >> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> Hello Tom Richardson >> This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat >> Project" that has just finished its >> planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human >> development, and theories of "Development >> in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced >> by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. >> Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to >> actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. >> The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of >> essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. >> In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most >> dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced >> a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most >> members of this discussion over the years, >> is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations >> have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting >> a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). >> >> We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social >> science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp >> speed and its invisible. >> >> Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about >> for 100 years. >> Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start >> providing working models of effective practices that do NOT >> assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. >> >> Thanks for asking. >> mike >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson < >> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: >> >> Greetings Xmca-ers >> I would like to raise a question. >> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major >> questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, >> democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international >> competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan >> approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to >> these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been >> happening recently: >> >> >> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks >> after that article appeared, he described >> the >> ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the >> country had been forced to cobble together during this public health >> emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. >> >> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do >> kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better >> remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? >> will help kids learn better.? " >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!UQRsohbnIRLcq7MedGPyrxBCyT-r38VV2JiQxXhJG-MepalCkr0aAEyKwbvU8iStVY188A$ >> >> >> >> Just asking >> Tom Richardson >> Middlesbrough UK >> >> >> >> -- >> >> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, >> translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >> --------------------------------------------------- >> For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. >> For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net >> >> . >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200521/005a0302/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Thu May 21 12:10:20 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 13:10:20 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning?/anonymity and social media In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David, Doesn?t Vygotsky make much the same case for learning and development that you do for evolution and devolution in society? Or is it that development requires an addittive process that is external to the child, followed by some kind of internalization that rearranges the structure of the child?s thinking. The hydrogen + oxygen ?> Water process. If we are lucky. Like in South Korea, where a herd immunity to Covid-19 is developing. SK + Covid-19?> Herd Immunity. This ?> like some kind of social perizhvanie. Biologically, Mr. Schmidt is the vector of social media, driven by financial gain and power, setting us up for more crisis. Back to physics and an analogy I heard the psychologist Jonathan Haidt say on a podcast today: Let?s say that the force of gravity suddenly doubled. That would do to our physical universe what the introduction of social media has done to our social universe. In that same podcast. Haidt said that the only thing that can save us from a complete meltdown is to make anonymous access to public spaces in social media impossible. I would be interested in responses to this. I think this is relevant to the subject line of on-line learning. Henry > On May 20, 2020, at 5:16 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > I don't think that photography really replaced painting, nor do I think that television ever replaced printing. In both cases, there was some encroachment and then an "involution" (a die-off) where functions overlapped. For example, we no longer pay for expensive family portraits, and the number of people who watch Downton Abbey is probably a lot greater than the number that read Anthony Trollope. But where functions did not redound (e.g. abstraction in painting and forensics in photography, advertising in television vs. psychological prose) there was enrichment and evolution. Crises only become pathological when involution fails to occur, and when the transitional forms thrown up at critical times become permanent ones. We cannot make salads from the cotyledons of our lettuce greens. > > I think that pathological tendency is exactly what Mr. Schmidt and his colleagues are pushing with their attempt to make on-line learning economically sustainable even when it is not educationally so. Rebecca Schuman recently pointed out that the expense of online learning to universities is greater than classroom learning (because it requires you to pay faculty AND tech support). So you can only turn a profit if you make it permanent (You have to do what Chairman Mao used to do in the old Peasant Studies Institute in revolutionary Guangzhou: "keep the blackboard and erase the students"). On-line learning in a way presents the OPPOSITE problem that photograhy presented to painting and television presented to printing. Photography is better at "unmediated" presentation than painting, and television rewards attention rather than concentration. Like photography and TV, face to face conversation is just a whole lot better at these. > > Much the same may be said about Mr. Schmidt's response to China and South Korea's response, which is explicitly and avowedly pro-individualism and implicitly and covertly pro-US imperialist. But whether or not Mr. Schmidt agrees to it, the Anglo-American approach of preventative-but-not-public medicine is going to involute, and very quickly too. One example will suffice. Yesterday KCDC released a report on the "reinfection" phenomenon--the fact that people who recover will test positive again in a few months. The Koreans found that this was due to deactivated virus particles which persist in the body but which are detected by oversensitive testing. This is REALLY big news--it essentially means that humans as a species will eventually survive Covid 19 in more or less the way we prevailed over the Black Death and small pox. But the study was done here in Korea, and it was publisihed only in Korean; the rest of the world had to read the abstract. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!SeWBgrMrPx_daUZ-tLhWq-AJkJxc2qMhWH-kDfa6jNkH0vBDB89hTXjr-lcxIBM40zT56Q$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SeWBgrMrPx_daUZ-tLhWq-AJkJxc2qMhWH-kDfa6jNkH0vBDB89hTXjr-lcxIBN8G0jYlA$ > > > On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 7:02 AM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > Hi Mike, > > But then how is it that we even exist, having these conversations? If this were all true? > > There is within each individual the freedom to choose, we are not all automatons. > > I suppose what I mean to say is that if we say it's hopeless, then it is. > > So then why even bother? > > Why not just give up the ghost (and resignedly accept our bourgeois-reality as the medicine we are spoonfed)? Are we talking about the borg? Is resistance futile? > > To hell with that (narrative)! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > > Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 3:34 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > [EXTERNAL] > > Annalisa -- I believe that Tom's point is that such promising innovations are almost always > possible on the fringes of educational practice, but that they are inevitably domesticated or > stomped on by pre-existing regimes of power. > > That is what Adorno argued in the post-WWII. And many before and since. > mike > > On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 2:29 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > Hi Tom, > > May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? > > Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed by SL's prospects. > > In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. > > Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. > > What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. > > I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of associations of place with learning. > > In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and constrain learning to books. > > We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. > > I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of learning. > > I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged learning venues . Not with grade school. > > I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. > > I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. > > What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!SeWBgrMrPx_daUZ-tLhWq-AJkJxc2qMhWH-kDfa6jNkH0vBDB89hTXjr-lcxIBMVhi7KqA$ > > It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. > > It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. > > Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. > > If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be integrated with existing models. > > If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. > > One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and surveillance is a constructive combination. > > There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. > > This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and introspection, I will never accept that reality. > > To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers and pins." > > I just do not believe this narrative. > > We cannot give up. > > Is there a fight ahead? Yes. > > Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most definitely, yes. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > > Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > [EXTERNAL] > > > Hello Annalisa > Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. > What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such learning takes place?'. > What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes for the perezhivanie of the learner, which shapes her social being and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? > Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. > I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. > > Kind regards > Tom > > > On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > Hello Tom, > > Thank you for posting the link. > > I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended into our lives. > > I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. > > At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. > > Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). > > I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. > > Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. > > She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control the world. > > Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to deliberate the way forward. > > As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency to decide how to use our tools. > > Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. > > So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply does not hold water for me. > > I hope this might be a little encouraging. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > [EXTERNAL] > > Hello Tom Richardson > This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat Project" that has just finished its > planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human development, and theories of "Development > in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. > Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. > The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. > In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced > a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most members of this discussion over the years, > is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). > > We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. > > Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about for 100 years. > Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing working models of effective practices that do NOT > assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. > > Thanks for asking. > mike > > > > On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson > wrote: > Greetings Xmca-ers > I would like to raise a question. > In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening recently: > > > "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks after that article appeared, he described the ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the country had been forced to cobble together during this public health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. > > The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!SeWBgrMrPx_daUZ-tLhWq-AJkJxc2qMhWH-kDfa6jNkH0vBDB89hTXjr-lcxIBOWq1BU_Q$ > > Just asking > Tom Richardson > Middlesbrough UK > > > > -- > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > > > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu . > For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . > For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net . > > > > > -- > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!SeWBgrMrPx_daUZ-tLhWq-AJkJxc2qMhWH-kDfa6jNkH0vBDB89hTXjr-lcxIBP2vcCwuA$ > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu . > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200521/0db846a6/attachment-0001.html From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu May 21 13:20:37 2020 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 14:20:37 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning?/anonymity and social media In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Henry, Can you share the link for the Haidt interview? Thanks, Greg On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 1:13 PM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > David, > Doesn?t Vygotsky make much the same case for learning and development that > you do for evolution and devolution in society? Or is it that development > requires an addittive process that is external to the child, followed by > some kind of internalization that rearranges the structure of the child?s > thinking. The hydrogen + oxygen ?> Water process. If we are lucky. Like in > South Korea, where a herd immunity to Covid-19 is developing. SK + > Covid-19?> Herd Immunity. This ?> like some kind of social perizhvanie. > Biologically, Mr. Schmidt is the vector of social media, driven by > financial gain and power, setting us up for more crisis. > > Back to physics and an analogy I heard the psychologist Jonathan Haidt say > on a podcast today: Let?s say that the force of gravity suddenly doubled. > That would do to our physical universe what the introduction of social > media has done to our social universe. In that same podcast. Haidt said > that the only thing that can save us from a complete meltdown is to make > anonymous access to public spaces in social media impossible. I would be > interested in responses to this. I think this is relevant to the subject > line of on-line learning. > > Henry > > On May 20, 2020, at 5:16 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > I don't think that photography really replaced painting, nor do I think > that television ever replaced printing. In both cases, there was some > encroachment and then an "involution" (a die-off) where functions > overlapped. For example, we no longer pay for expensive family portraits, > and the number of people who watch Downton Abbey is probably a lot greater > than the number that read Anthony Trollope. But where functions did not > redound (e.g. abstraction in painting and forensics in photography, > advertising in television vs. psychological prose) there was enrichment and > evolution. Crises only become pathological when involution fails to occur, > and when the transitional forms thrown up at critical times become > permanent ones. We cannot make salads from the cotyledons of our lettuce > greens. > > I think that pathological tendency is exactly what Mr. Schmidt and his > colleagues are pushing with their attempt to make on-line learning > economically sustainable even when it is not educationally so. Rebecca > Schuman recently pointed out that the expense of online learning to > universities is greater than classroom learning (because it requires you to > pay faculty AND tech support). So you can only turn a profit if you make it > permanent (You have to do what Chairman Mao used to do in the old Peasant > Studies Institute in revolutionary Guangzhou: "keep the blackboard and > erase the students"). On-line learning in a way presents the OPPOSITE > problem that photograhy presented to painting and television presented to > printing. Photography is better at "unmediated" presentation than painting, > and television rewards attention rather than concentration. Like > photography and TV, face to face conversation is just a whole lot better at > these. > > Much the same may be said about Mr. Schmidt's response to China and South > Korea's response, which is explicitly and avowedly pro-individualism and > implicitly and covertly pro-US imperialist. But whether or not Mr. Schmidt > agrees to it, the Anglo-American approach of preventative-but-not-public > medicine is going to involute, and very quickly too. One example will > suffice. Yesterday KCDC released a report on the "reinfection" > phenomenon--the fact that people who recover will test positive again in a > few months. The Koreans found that this was due to deactivated virus > particles which persist in the body but which are detected by oversensitive > testing. This is REALLY big news--it essentially means that humans as a > species will eventually survive Covid 19 in more or less the way we > prevailed over the Black Death and small pox. But the study was done > here in Korea, and it was publisihed only in Korean; the rest of the world > had to read the abstract. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!SqpXCrlVzwAvHccknIK1ARpUWbeVmxxCFH3sXoqNTMK72o_iMSbz61KwbBRZQv2Ms5puMg$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SqpXCrlVzwAvHccknIK1ARpUWbeVmxxCFH3sXoqNTMK72o_iMSbz61KwbBRZQv2FsIrBvA$ > > > > > On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 7:02 AM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >> Hi Mike, >> >> But then how is it that we even exist, having these conversations? If >> this were all true? >> >> There is within each individual the freedom to choose, we are not all >> automatons. >> >> I suppose what I mean to say is that if we say it's hopeless, then it is. >> >> So then why even bother? >> >> Why not just give up the ghost (and resignedly accept our >> bourgeois-reality as the medicine we are spoonfed)? Are we talking about >> the borg? Is resistance futile? >> >> To hell with that (narrative)! >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of mike cole >> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2020 3:34 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> Annalisa -- I believe that Tom's point is that such promising >> innovations are almost always >> possible on the fringes of educational practice, but that they are >> inevitably domesticated or >> stomped on by pre-existing regimes of power. >> >> That is what Adorno argued in the post-WWII. And many before and since. >> mike >> >> On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 2:29 PM Annalisa Aguilar >> wrote: >> >> Hi Tom, >> >> May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? >> >> Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We >> looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, >> once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always >> a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed >> by SL's prospects. >> >> In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, >> I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that >> students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one >> another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological >> fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would >> ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. >> >> Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like >> looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. >> Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. >> >> What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, >> which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open >> space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was >> perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. >> >> I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators >> already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online >> learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers >> during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of >> associations of place with learning. >> >> In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the >> AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, >> drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in >> order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye >> coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing >> abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and >> constrain learning to books. >> >> We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We >> must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. >> >> I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which >> the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts >> of learning. >> >> I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but >> out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for >> quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged >> learning venues . Not with grade school. >> >> I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for >> grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally >> studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, >> although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon >> it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess >> that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because >> parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. >> >> I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, >> nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. >> >> What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is >> childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own >> families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!SqpXCrlVzwAvHccknIK1ARpUWbeVmxxCFH3sXoqNTMK72o_iMSbz61KwbBRZQv03J_2hCA$ >> >> >> It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, >> not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may >> also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we >> must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. >> >> It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the >> classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances >> that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. >> >> Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by >> the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that >> he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and >> that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. >> People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, >> etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it >> the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of >> learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. >> >> If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to >> already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support >> well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be >> integrated with existing models. >> >> If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another >> way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where >> money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and >> wasteful. >> >> One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online >> learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may >> also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or >> riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and >> surveillance is a constructive combination. >> >> There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more >> appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet >> words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must >> better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite >> behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown >> interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from >> what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. >> >> This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a >> mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and >> introspection, I will never accept that reality. >> >> To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say >> "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers >> and pins." >> >> I just do not believe this narrative. >> >> We cannot give up. >> >> Is there a fight ahead? Yes. >> >> Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most >> definitely, yes. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Tom Richardson >> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> >> Hello Annalisa >> Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost >> none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of >> human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour >> acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. >> >> - What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment >> created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the >> widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such >> learning takes place?'. >> - What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes >> for the *perezhivanie *of the learner, which shapes her social being >> and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', >> 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? >> >> Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet >> listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what >> is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. >> I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is >> within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. >> >> Kind regards >> Tom >> >> >> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> Hello Tom, >> >> Thank you for posting the link. >> >> I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly >> dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is >> not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking >> pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended >> into our lives. >> >> I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It >> reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and >> resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has >> become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. >> >> At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power >> in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. >> >> Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill >> Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as >> the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment >> facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include >> Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding >> flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his >> billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). >> >> I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to >> encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee >> to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that >> coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. >> >> Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem >> I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. >> >> She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of >> COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to >> control the world. >> >> Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of >> the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. >> Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is >> the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to >> deliberate the way forward. >> >> As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to >> control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, >> or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in >> ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be >> construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency >> to decide how to use our tools. >> >> Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt >> will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled >> children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional >> online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. >> >> So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply >> does not hold water for me. >> >> I hope this might be a little encouraging. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of mike cole >> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> Hello Tom Richardson >> This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat >> Project" that has just finished its >> planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human >> development, and theories of "Development >> in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced >> by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. >> Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to >> actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. >> The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of >> essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. >> In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most >> dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced >> a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most >> members of this discussion over the years, >> is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations >> have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting >> a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). >> >> We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social >> science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp >> speed and its invisible. >> >> Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about >> for 100 years. >> Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start >> providing working models of effective practices that do NOT >> assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. >> >> Thanks for asking. >> mike >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson < >> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: >> >> Greetings Xmca-ers >> I would like to raise a question. >> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major >> questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, >> democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international >> competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan >> approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to >> these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been >> happening recently: >> >> >> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks >> after that article appeared, he described >> the >> ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the >> country had been forced to cobble together during this public health >> emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. >> >> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do >> kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better >> remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? >> will help kids learn better.? " >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!SqpXCrlVzwAvHccknIK1ARpUWbeVmxxCFH3sXoqNTMK72o_iMSbz61KwbBRZQv38y_Fj6A$ >> >> >> >> Just asking >> Tom Richardson >> Middlesbrough UK >> >> >> >> -- >> >> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, >> translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >> --------------------------------------------------- >> For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. >> For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net >> >> . >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, >> translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >> --------------------------------------------------- >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!SqpXCrlVzwAvHccknIK1ARpUWbeVmxxCFH3sXoqNTMK72o_iMSbz61KwbBRZQv2E1y4hfQ$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> >> >> > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!SqpXCrlVzwAvHccknIK1ARpUWbeVmxxCFH3sXoqNTMK72o_iMSbz61KwbBRZQv2do3J5VQ$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!SqpXCrlVzwAvHccknIK1ARpUWbeVmxxCFH3sXoqNTMK72o_iMSbz61KwbBRZQv2T--ST8g$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200521/12cafe81/attachment.html From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Thu May 21 13:39:01 2020 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 21:39:01 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The architecture of classrooms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great question, Annalisa....... Tom BoWen On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 23:17, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello VO's on the XMCA list, > > I regret if you tire of my posts, but in light of these Kleinian worries, > I wanted to point out one possible area where education innovation has > succeeded, albeit under the radar. I am curious to open that up to > conversations here. > > Namely, what have been the consequences of the placement of tables and > chairs in the grade-school classroom. > > I know that many say that the millennials are "entitled" and yes, that is > a problematic assertion to me, but I have wondered if this might have to do > with how millennials may be the first generation of learners who learned in > classrooms where tables and chairs were arranged in circles, and/or > clusters, and not in regimented the rows and columns that I, and perhaps > you, grew up with. > > Would this in and of itself create a more social-learning/ Would it foster > confidence, team-building, and the kinds of zopeds we hope and pray for > (whether formally constructed or not?) > > I feel that this generation (millennials) shares more, and is less > competitive, and though I may be harmful by speaking too generally (I don't > mean to be that), they seem to have some contempt to boomers, as they > believe they sold out and are selfish. I do not blame them for saying this, > though oddly selfishness is a different shade of "entitlement." > > Still I wonder for an educational setting that fostered competition in > classrooms where students were punished for sharing answers, or for > learning together in the classroom in a playful arc, is it possible this > might be rooted with the placement of tables and chairs? > > We have before us to compare the models of sage on the stage (boomers) vs > the guide on the side (millennials). > > Is this too simplistic? Could this be one way millennials have prospered > socially, where as a group, boomers cannot? > > Thanks in advance for your comments. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200521/69f66a83/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu May 21 14:08:02 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 06:08:02 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning?/anonymity and social media In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Henry: I think one of the important differences between learning and development is that development has crises, while learning CAN be gradualistic (although it can also be critical, since some learning does lead in a pretty direct way to development). Another important difference is that learning requires what you call an additive that's external to the child. But during critical periods development is child-driven: one of the things that makes birth a crisis is that it happens whether the environment is ready or not, and the same thing is true of the crises Vygotsky theorized at one, three, seven, thirteen. In each case, the child becomes, briefly, the source of development and not just the site of development. That situation is nonsustainable, which is why the transitional structures can only become permanent by passing their functions upwards to more permanent structures (e.g. in birth the mental life of the child has to be handed upwards to the myelinating cortex, in puberty the sexual life of the child has to become subject to voluntary control--including control by the volition of others....) I've often thought that "child-centred" pedagogy evolved as a reaction to crises, and that it may ONLY be suitable to critical periods. I don't think that South Korea is approaching anything like biological "herd immunity", which happens when a population reaches 70% exposure to the virus. That's why we are having these spikes that have to be isolated and controlled. What we do have is what you could call a socio-cultural immunity: we have the sociocultural ability to test, trace, track and then isolate and treat positives before they spike outbreaks and before the outbreaks provoke the waves that we are seeing in the USA. When Trump says that the very high number of positives in the USA is a "badge of honor", he is being outrageous, but not for the reasons that people are outraged--it genuinely is a badge to be able to find the positives. But it's only a badge--it serves no use whatsoever unless you are willing to trace, track, and treat your positives before they transmit to others. In China, after the lockdown, the majority of transmission was--unsurprisingly--within the family or within the housing compound, and that meant that the next phase had to be breaking up families and housing units where positives occurred. None of this is compatible with a preventative-but-not-public-health approach. Take, for example, the "state-of-the-art" Bluetooth applications which are supposed to use the cell phone to exchange anonymous "keys" that will indentify other positives in your vicinity and alert you to their presence, avoiding any central data base. Sure, if you splash out on the cell phone and shell out for the app, you can "test" for the virus presence in your vicinity. But only public health can isolate and treat the positives; that's what China and South Korea have, and it is based on a centralized public health authority that people trust with their economic as well as their medical well-being. That in turn relies on units of sociocultural activity beyond the nuclear family. That is what is missing in the USA. Finally, I think that some analogies are a lot better than others, but that analogies can fail for two very different reasons. Most late-night comedy fails because the humor is based on exactly the same immediately gettable analogies that Trump himself uses (puns, allusions to sex, the gleeful reference to scatology, analogies between politicians and TV stars and ordinary folks, all of which rely on purely surface resemblances that are easily conjured up and easily dismissed.) Most of my posts fail for the opposite reason: I prefer far-fetched analogies (the analogy with making salads out of cotyledons, and the idea that Schmidt's response to S. Korea and to China is analogous to the "response" of painting to photography or the "response" of printing to television). I think that the analogy between the effect of social media and the doubling of the law of gravity definitely falls into the latter category, and every analogy-maker needs to get a tattoo that reads "Mutatis Mutandis". (Mine is somewhere on the small of my back.) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!Q2DW1DxVXpZsw2W35Xj9H9TB_4-wEri_H0cY1KZMtcg4Er4osHd_OIx4YP70gzpXstgUVw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Q2DW1DxVXpZsw2W35Xj9H9TB_4-wEri_H0cY1KZMtcg4Er4osHd_OIx4YP70gzolssBg4w$ On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 4:13 AM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > David, > Doesn?t Vygotsky make much the same case for learning and development that > you do for evolution and devolution in society? Or is it that development > requires an addittive process that is external to the child, followed by > some kind of internalization that rearranges the structure of the child?s > thinking. The hydrogen + oxygen ?> Water process. If we are lucky. Like in > South Korea, where a herd immunity to Covid-19 is developing. SK + > Covid-19?> Herd Immunity. This ?> like some kind of social perizhvanie. > Biologically, Mr. Schmidt is the vector of social media, driven by > financial gain and power, setting us up for more crisis. > > Back to physics and an analogy I heard the psychologist Jonathan Haidt say > on a podcast today: Let?s say that the force of gravity suddenly doubled. > That would do to our physical universe what the introduction of social > media has done to our social universe. In that same podcast. Haidt said > that the only thing that can save us from a complete meltdown is to make > anonymous access to public spaces in social media impossible. I would be > interested in responses to this. I think this is relevant to the subject > line of on-line learning. > > Henry > > On May 20, 2020, at 5:16 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > I don't think that photography really replaced painting, nor do I think > that television ever replaced printing. In both cases, there was some > encroachment and then an "involution" (a die-off) where functions > overlapped. For example, we no longer pay for expensive family portraits, > and the number of people who watch Downton Abbey is probably a lot greater > than the number that read Anthony Trollope. But where functions did not > redound (e.g. abstraction in painting and forensics in photography, > advertising in television vs. psychological prose) there was enrichment and > evolution. Crises only become pathological when involution fails to occur, > and when the transitional forms thrown up at critical times become > permanent ones. We cannot make salads from the cotyledons of our lettuce > greens. > > I think that pathological tendency is exactly what Mr. Schmidt and his > colleagues are pushing with their attempt to make on-line learning > economically sustainable even when it is not educationally so. Rebecca > Schuman recently pointed out that the expense of online learning to > universities is greater than classroom learning (because it requires you to > pay faculty AND tech support). So you can only turn a profit if you make it > permanent (You have to do what Chairman Mao used to do in the old Peasant > Studies Institute in revolutionary Guangzhou: "keep the blackboard and > erase the students"). On-line learning in a way presents the OPPOSITE > problem that photograhy presented to painting and television presented to > printing. Photography is better at "unmediated" presentation than painting, > and television rewards attention rather than concentration. Like > photography and TV, face to face conversation is just a whole lot better at > these. > > Much the same may be said about Mr. Schmidt's response to China and South > Korea's response, which is explicitly and avowedly pro-individualism and > implicitly and covertly pro-US imperialist. But whether or not Mr. Schmidt > agrees to it, the Anglo-American approach of preventative-but-not-public > medicine is going to involute, and very quickly too. One example will > suffice. Yesterday KCDC released a report on the "reinfection" > phenomenon--the fact that people who recover will test positive again in a > few months. The Koreans found that this was due to deactivated virus > particles which persist in the body but which are detected by oversensitive > testing. This is REALLY big news--it essentially means that humans as a > species will eventually survive Covid 19 in more or less the way we > prevailed over the Black Death and small pox. But the study was done > here in Korea, and it was publisihed only in Korean; the rest of the world > had to read the abstract. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!Q2DW1DxVXpZsw2W35Xj9H9TB_4-wEri_H0cY1KZMtcg4Er4osHd_OIx4YP70gzpXstgUVw$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Q2DW1DxVXpZsw2W35Xj9H9TB_4-wEri_H0cY1KZMtcg4Er4osHd_OIx4YP70gzolssBg4w$ > > > > > On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 7:02 AM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >> Hi Mike, >> >> But then how is it that we even exist, having these conversations? If >> this were all true? >> >> There is within each individual the freedom to choose, we are not all >> automatons. >> >> I suppose what I mean to say is that if we say it's hopeless, then it is. >> >> So then why even bother? >> >> Why not just give up the ghost (and resignedly accept our >> bourgeois-reality as the medicine we are spoonfed)? Are we talking about >> the borg? Is resistance futile? >> >> To hell with that (narrative)! >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of mike cole >> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2020 3:34 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> Annalisa -- I believe that Tom's point is that such promising >> innovations are almost always >> possible on the fringes of educational practice, but that they are >> inevitably domesticated or >> stomped on by pre-existing regimes of power. >> >> That is what Adorno argued in the post-WWII. And many before and since. >> mike >> >> On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 2:29 PM Annalisa Aguilar >> wrote: >> >> Hi Tom, >> >> May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? >> >> Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We >> looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, >> once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always >> a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed >> by SL's prospects. >> >> In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, >> I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that >> students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one >> another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological >> fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would >> ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. >> >> Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like >> looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. >> Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. >> >> What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, >> which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open >> space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was >> perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. >> >> I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators >> already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online >> learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers >> during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of >> associations of place with learning. >> >> In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the >> AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, >> drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in >> order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye >> coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing >> abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and >> constrain learning to books. >> >> We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We >> must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. >> >> I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which >> the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts >> of learning. >> >> I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but >> out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for >> quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged >> learning venues . Not with grade school. >> >> I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for >> grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally >> studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, >> although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon >> it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess >> that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because >> parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. >> >> I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, >> nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. >> >> What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is >> childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own >> families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!Q2DW1DxVXpZsw2W35Xj9H9TB_4-wEri_H0cY1KZMtcg4Er4osHd_OIx4YP70gzroyQ9ivQ$ >> >> >> It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, >> not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may >> also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we >> must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. >> >> It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the >> classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances >> that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. >> >> Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by >> the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that >> he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and >> that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. >> People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, >> etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it >> the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of >> learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. >> >> If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to >> already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support >> well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be >> integrated with existing models. >> >> If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another >> way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where >> money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and >> wasteful. >> >> One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online >> learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may >> also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or >> riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and >> surveillance is a constructive combination. >> >> There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more >> appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet >> words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must >> better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite >> behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown >> interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from >> what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. >> >> This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a >> mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and >> introspection, I will never accept that reality. >> >> To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say >> "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers >> and pins." >> >> I just do not believe this narrative. >> >> We cannot give up. >> >> Is there a fight ahead? Yes. >> >> Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most >> definitely, yes. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Tom Richardson >> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> >> Hello Annalisa >> Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost >> none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of >> human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour >> acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. >> >> - What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment >> created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the >> widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such >> learning takes place?'. >> - What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes >> for the *perezhivanie *of the learner, which shapes her social being >> and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', >> 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? >> >> Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet >> listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what >> is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. >> I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is >> within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. >> >> Kind regards >> Tom >> >> >> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> Hello Tom, >> >> Thank you for posting the link. >> >> I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly >> dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is >> not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking >> pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended >> into our lives. >> >> I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It >> reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and >> resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has >> become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. >> >> At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power >> in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. >> >> Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill >> Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as >> the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment >> facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include >> Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding >> flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his >> billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). >> >> I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to >> encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee >> to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that >> coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. >> >> Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem >> I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. >> >> She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of >> COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to >> control the world. >> >> Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of >> the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. >> Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is >> the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to >> deliberate the way forward. >> >> As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to >> control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, >> or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in >> ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be >> construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency >> to decide how to use our tools. >> >> Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt >> will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled >> children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional >> online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. >> >> So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply >> does not hold water for me. >> >> I hope this might be a little encouraging. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of mike cole >> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> Hello Tom Richardson >> This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat >> Project" that has just finished its >> planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human >> development, and theories of "Development >> in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced >> by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. >> Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to >> actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. >> The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of >> essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. >> In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most >> dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced >> a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most >> members of this discussion over the years, >> is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations >> have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting >> a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). >> >> We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social >> science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp >> speed and its invisible. >> >> Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about >> for 100 years. >> Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start >> providing working models of effective practices that do NOT >> assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. >> >> Thanks for asking. >> mike >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson < >> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: >> >> Greetings Xmca-ers >> I would like to raise a question. >> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major >> questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, >> democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international >> competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan >> approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to >> these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been >> happening recently: >> >> >> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks >> after that article appeared, he described >> the >> ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the >> country had been forced to cobble together during this public health >> emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. >> >> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do >> kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better >> remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? >> will help kids learn better.? " >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!Q2DW1DxVXpZsw2W35Xj9H9TB_4-wEri_H0cY1KZMtcg4Er4osHd_OIx4YP70gzr99ccZ9w$ >> >> >> >> Just asking >> Tom Richardson >> Middlesbrough UK >> >> >> >> -- >> >> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, >> translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >> --------------------------------------------------- >> For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. >> For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net >> >> . >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, >> translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >> --------------------------------------------------- >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Q2DW1DxVXpZsw2W35Xj9H9TB_4-wEri_H0cY1KZMtcg4Er4osHd_OIx4YP70gzoFilWilw$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200522/2a30db9e/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu May 21 14:56:50 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 14:56:50 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [commfac-g] [commdept-g] FW: You're Invited: A virtual event with the authors of The Costs of Connection In-Reply-To: <7A42FB2A-DE49-46A0-A429-124C41DC9729@ucsd.edu> References: <0lf4.8fk6hh.cn0mwr@e2ma.net> <7A42FB2A-DE49-46A0-A429-124C41DC9729@ucsd.edu> Message-ID: This online conf looks to be relevant to the current discussion along several dimensions mike On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 1:54 PM Booker, Angela wrote: > FYI? > > > > *From: *Stanford University Press > *Date: *Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 10:30 AM > *To: *"Booker, Angela" > *Subject: *You're Invited: A virtual event with the authors of The Costs > of Connection > > > > If you're having trouble viewing this email, you may see it online > . > > > *Share this:* [image: Image removed by sender.] > [image: > Image removed by sender.] > [image: > Image removed by sender.] > [image: > Image removed by sender.] > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > > > > Thursday, June 4 > 1:00 PM EDT > > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > > > *Join us for a virtual event with Nick Couldry and Ulises Ali Mejias, the > authors of The Costs of Connection > , > in conversation with Safiya Umoja Noble.* > > The COVID-19 crisis has increased our dependence on digital connection > during times of social distancing, making us more vulnerable to > privacy-threatening mechanisms. As a result, the global pandemic represents > a golden opportunity for the forces of data colonialism to extend their > activities to tracking and extracting value from every aspect of our lives. > In conversation with Safiya Umoja Noble, Nick Couldry and Ulises Ali > Mejias, authors of *The Costs of Connection* > , > explain the dynamics of this emergent form of colonialism as a force for > reordering social and economic life, entrenching corporate and state power, > and deepening inequality. But how can data colonialism be resisted during > this unique challenge? > > *NICK COULDRY* is Professor of Media Communications and Social Theory at > the London School of Economics and Political Science and Faculty Associate > at the Berkman Klein Center for Internet and Society at Harvard University. > > *ULISES ALI MEJIAS* is Associate Professor of Communication Studies and > director of Communication Studies and director of the Institute for Global > Engagement at the State University of New York, College at Oswego. > > *SAFIYA UMOJA NOBLE* is an Associate Professor at the University of > California, Los Angeles (UCLA) in the Department of Information Studies > where she serves as the Co-Director of the UCLA Center for Critical > Internet Inquiry. She also holds appointments in African American Studies > and Gender Studies. She is the author of a best-selling book on racist and > sexist algorithmic bias in commercial search engines, entitled *Algorithms > of Oppression: How Search Engines Reinforce Racism > *(NYU > Press). > > *This event is free but you will need to register. We?ll send you the Zoom > link shortly before the event.* > > > > Register here > > > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > > > *Save $10* when you order the book on the Stanford University Press > *website* > > using discount code *ConnectionEvent*. > > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > > > Stanford University Press | 425 Broadway, Redwood City, CA 94063 | > advertising@www.sup.org > > > > [image: Image removed by sender. Twitter] > > > [image: Image removed by sender. Facebook] > > > [image: Image removed by sender. LinkedIn] > > > [image: Image removed by sender. YouTube] > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > 485 Broadway, First Floor | Redwood City, CA 94063-8460 United States > > This email was sent to *a1booker@ucsd.edu *. To ensure > that you continue receiving our emails, please add us to your address book > or safe list. > > *manage* > > your preferences | *opt out* > > using *TrueRemove*?. > > Got this as a forward? *Sign up* > > to receive our future emails. > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!RlBwqlE-WnWyGPY2GTuG---zq5YnepQeUSvbtcy9L43V91k6fq1xpZGcSuYgHXDthocK1A$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200521/bdc1fe7a/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu May 21 16:20:26 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 16:20:26 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: <71876107-fad8-3a23-2bd9-35d13d923268@marxists.org> References: <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> <36147263-58ba-6908-ce60-bc367719772e@marxists.org> <71876107-fad8-3a23-2bd9-35d13d923268@marxists.org> Message-ID: This is a point I have struggled to make for many years, Andy. I didn't know I was quoting Hegel: Hegel: 'Everything is both immediate and mediated." The challenge is to rise to the concrete with this abstraction or its just la la la. mike On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 6:42 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > Of course, Annalisa, I agree that Science is a moral practice, but that is > not what is at issue here. > > > Two issues concern me with what you have said: (1) the question of "who > decides?" and (2) the quantification of development as in "more evolved" > bringing with it the implication of moral value attached to development. > > > (1) The discovery of the "social construction of reality" was an > achievement of the Left, the progressives, with people like the Critical > Psychologists, the theorists of postmodernism and post-structural feminists > in the 1970s an 80s, who exposed how taken-for-granted facts along with the > truths of Science were on closer inspection ideological products of > dominant social groups. Of course, how reality is *seen *is an > inseparable part of how reality *is*. This insight led to a range of > powerful theoretical and practical critiques of all aspects of society. > Feminists offered an alternative way of interpreting reality as a powerful > lever for changing that reality by undermining patriarchal structures and > certainties. So far so good. But today, in 2020, it is not progressives who > are asking "who decides?" and calling into question the very idea of truth > and fact: it is Donald Trump and Rudi Giuliani. Quite honestly, this > outcome was always implicit in the postmodern and poststructuralist > critique. Or, could I say: "Donald Trump is a more evolved form of Judith > Butler" if I thought in those terms, which I don't. > > > Hegel takes up this problem with the maxim: "Everything is both immediate > and mediated." Yes, social interests dominant in a certain social domain by > definition determine what is true in that domain (though remember, every > social domain is finite and has its boundaries). But that is not just by > saying something about an* independently existing* reality which can be > subject to any number of *alternative* representations (as Kant would > have it), but rather the dominant social interests *determine that > reality itself*. They do that both *immediately *and *through the ideal > representation* of that reality which is *part of that reality*. You > can't "decide" by a purely discursive moves - you have to *change *that > reality. You do that with the weapons of both theoretical and practical > critique. > > > What this means is that you can study the documents (assuming you weren't > personally present) of some past dispute and see with your own eyes how and > why some people formulated new word meanings, and began to use these new > word meaning(s) in their own communication, and thereby facilitated others > from using this word meaning, and the relevant concepts, in their work, and > so on. > > > (2) As perhaps I have illustrated in my example above that there is no > implication of "higher" in development. In my own education, it was Sylvia > Scribner's "Uses of History" (1985) which explained this to me. "Higher" > implies comparison and comparison in turn implies *interchangeability*. > For example, if I was considering whether to emigrate to the US or France, > I might consider public safety as a metric and decide that France was > superior to the US and make my decision accordingly. Or, I might consider > job availability for an English-speaking monoglot like me as the metric, > and decide that the US was superior to France. But to decide that the US is > superior to France or vice versa without the choice and the relevant metric > is the moral judgment which neither you nor I find acceptable. They're just > different. > > > Understanding word meanings and concepts entails an analysis of *both *how > the word is used in the field in question, and the history as to how it > came to be so. Using the concept of "germ cell," I can work my way back and > forth through an etymological field, forensically, like a detective, until > I can connect the particular use of the word which emerged as a germ cell > at some earlier time, in some situation where the implication of choosing > that word meaning was abundantly clear to all, which allows me to see > *why* someone felt the need (now forgotten) to introduce the word meaning > and what it's absence would mean here and now, where it is already taken > for granted. > > > My apologies for the unacceptably long message, which is much against my > own mores, but I don't know how to clarify these issues more succinctly. > > > Andy > > > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 20/05/2020 3:51 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Andy, > > I suppose the issue about being on a branch of evolution has more to do > with who decides what the branch is. Is it time? or is it topical? or is it > based upon the interlocutors? > > If we say one word usage is more "evolved" than another, I suppose I am > just pushing back on that because who decides what is more evolved? > > Forgive me, but can we ever say that if something is more "evolved" it is > actually better? What do we actually mean when we say something is evolved? > > What if one term lasts over a longer arc of time than another usage? It > seems if we use the evolution rubric, it would be considered more "fit" > than the one that is changing over the same period of time. > > I do find it helpful that you to bring up the germ cell and how that > concept pertains to analysis. That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm glad to > know that to assign the parentheses does entail an ideological move, and > that that can't be escaped. As long as we know what the ideology is, there > is transparency in our analysis. > > I do think moral evaluations are worth including on all discussions, not > necessarily to forbid discussions or scientific pursuits, but to use as > landmarks to keep our bearings. Scientific concepts have a way of not being > inclusive of contexts (i.e., lived experiences) or being grounded, right? > > Perhaps this is what made Vygotsky such a humane and compassionate > scientific thinker is that he could understand how scientific concepts can > be abusive tools for oppression. Anchoring them in lived experience shows > their validity. Would this be a fair statement to you, Andy? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > > *Sent:* Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:23 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Annalisa, "where does history start"? Effectively there is no starting > point, and the choosing of a starting point is always an ideological move. > Foucault does this to great effect. Ilyenkov deals with this in his book > "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's Capital" and explains the need for > what he calls the "logical-historical method." To short circuit the > complexities of reading Ilyenkov, in CHAT we rely on the identification of > the unit of analysis or "germ cell" to anchor our historical investigation. > > > "Sociogenesis" is just Latin for "social development," the word I used. > But if you are going to ascribe a moral value to "evolution" and then > reject the concept on that basis, you'd better also reject "development" > and all the "geneses" and evolution of species by natural selection and all > modern biology while you are at it. Alternatively, you could choose *not* > to ascribe moral values to scientific concepts, then the whole of science > is open to you. > > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 18/05/2020 3:25 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Andy (& VO's), > > I think that that was my point, that we cannot capture everything in the > word to describe the theory. And that is because of the limit of our > language. > > Even where genesis actually is, where something starts can be difficult to > pinpoint. I mean where does History actually start? > > These words that you mention phylogenesis, ethnogenesis, ontogenesis, are > words that are like brackets of a pair of parentheses. Who decides where to > put them? (And why not sociogenesis?) > > I'm not sure it's correct to say the choice of a word locates the user on > a branch of a cultural evolutionary tree, because then that starts to mean > that one speaker is more evolved than another based on the use of a word. > > It might be better to say that the choice of a word locates the user to a > particular context. I could live with that. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > > *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:27 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > You're never going to succeed in formally capturing the full scope of the > theory in a word, Annalisa. "socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity > theory" still leave out biology and Darwin, which is a part of our theory, > too. > > > It is sometimes said that human development is the coincidence of *four* > processes: *phylogenesis *(i.e., evolution of the species), cultural > development (*ethnogenesis*, the development of technology *and *language), > *social development* (one and the same culture has different classes and > political groups side by side) and *ontogenesis *(even twins can grow up > very differently according to the experiences (*perezhivaniya*) they go > through). I tried to describe this in: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/ontogenesis.htm__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb92jQ2OrA$ > > > > But if you look into the history of a word what you will inevitably find > is that at some point (in time and social space) there was some dispute, > and this dispute was either (1) resolved by both parties agreeing and > marking this agreement by the coining of a new word meaning or the dropping > of a word meaning altogether, or (2) there is a split and one or both sides > of the split adopt a word meaning which distinguishes them from the other > side (structuralism's favourite trope) or variations on the above scenarios. > > > So the choice of a word tends to locate the user on a branch in the > cultural evolutionary tree. > > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 17/05/2020 11:56 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > David K & VO's > > What pray-tell is an anthropologue? > > I am divided (pun intended) about saying that sociocultural = social + > culture, when they are intertwined holistically. To me, sociocultural > points to a space in between, or perhaps better said to a context of > interactions between individuals (who form a society) that are easily > accepted among them and practiced over time. > > We can conceptually parse out the social and the cultural, but don't we do > that because of the words and not because of the ostensible reality going > on interactionally? Can we always understand something by dissecting it > into parts? > > Again, this seems to be the limit of language, not of the conceptual > context or content. > > In a sense to use the term "sociocultural" is to grab the tail of the > tiger. The tail of the tiger is still the tiger, but perhaps a more > manageable one than to grab its head. > > Perhaps this is why Vygotskians just call themselves Vygotskians to align > themselves with the source of the first theories rather than to later > conceptions and other developments (i.e. Leontiev, etc). Just thinking out > loud. > > Another argument is that if we want to be all inclusive, then we have to > include tool-use, as it's not the social, the culture, and the history, but > also the language and tools used. I realize some practitioners would say > that language is no different than a tool, but I feel language is > different, even though it may have a similar cognitive response in the mind > as would using a tool. > > Activity suggests tool use, though not always. Consider dance, or > storytelling, or going for a walk. > > How about: socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory??? > > Yes! I am writing this a little tongue in cheek. I hope you do not mind. > > Kind regards, > > Annalsia > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > > *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:14 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > It's a very domain-specific umbrella, like those cane-brollies that go > with a bowler. "Sociocultural" is strongly preferred used in second > language acquisition, thanks to the influence of Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf > and Matthew Poehner; I have never seen "cultural historical" used in this > literature. But "cultural-historical" is similarly preferred in psychology > and anthropology, thanks to the influence of J.V. Wertsch, Mike > Cole, Martin Packer and Andy Blunden; that's really why we are having this > discussion on what "socio-cultural" might mean on a list largely populated > by roving psychologists and nomadic anthropologues. > > Interestingly, the Francophones prefer "historico-cultural", using the > argument that you can understand the process without the product but not > the product without the process. I stopped using "sociocultural" because I > thought it was redundant, but now I am really not sure of this: it seems to > me that the relationship is a similar one--you can study society as process > without studying its cultural product (e.g. as demographics, economics, > statistics) but you can't really study culture without some understanding > of the process of its formation. > > There was a similar disagreement in systemic functional linguistics > between Halliday and Jim Martin over the term "socio-semiotic". Martin said > that it was redundant, because there couldn't be any semiotic without > society. Halliday rather flippantly replied that ants had a society without > a semiotics, and at the time it seemed to me that this was a non > sequitur, first of all because ants don't really have a society in > our sense (precisely because there is no such thing as an ant history > separate from phylogenesis on the one hand and ontogenesis on the other) > and secondly because ants most definitely do have a semiotics, albeit one > based on chemistry and not perception as ours is. > > It seems to me, in retrospect, that the relationship between the semiotic > and the social is much more like the relationship between the social and > the biological, or even the biological and the chemical. The semiotic is a > certain level of organization that the social has, but there are > other levels, just as biology is a certain kind of chemical organization > which does not exclude other, nonbiological ways organizing chemicals, > and chemistry is a kind of physical organization which doesn't exclude > sub-chemical organizations. > > Perhaps we can think of the relationship between culture and society in > the same way? > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb_od1MviQ$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb-i3ZLWsg$ > > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David H Kirshner wrote: > > 4. As an umbrella term for any sociogenetic approach. > > Isn?t that its current usage? > > David > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar > *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > > > Hi Andy, and VO's, > > > > What fascinates me is that the word "sociocultural" has a lot of different > facets in terms of how the word was used in different contexts. It seems > there are three I've been able to pick out. > > 1. as a derisive term in early Soviet history. > 2. as an empowering term from Latin American voices. > 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist "brand" at the height of the Cold > War in the US. > > I'm not sure if I've done justice in the manner that I've represented > that, but it is a well-intended attempt. Are there others? > > > > What I don't understand fully is whether there must be ONE explanation how > the term came to be, or ONE definition of what it actually means. Can't it > be polysemantic? polycontextual? > > > > If that is what's happening, then it makes sense that there would be an > ongoing controversy about which one is the right definition or reason for > not using it, depending on the interlocutor. > > > > If we are to talk about who used the term first, and that's where the > value/authority holds, then all that tells us is that for those who value > who used the term first. that's where the authority is. > > > > If we talk about the emotional attachment of the word as it is used in > context and that's where the value/authority holds, then that tells us for > those who value the most personal attachment to the word, that's where the > authority is. > > > > If we talk about how the word was used functionally, where the > value/authority holds in its efficacy, then all that tells is that for > those who value whether the word works or not, that's where the authority > is. > > > > I'm not sure one can put any of one these over the other two (or if there > are more than that, if there are more). All we can say I suppose is whether > in a particular context is the word "sociocultural" appropriate or not? > > > > I do find that this debate has begun to have its own life, this debate > over the use of a word. I've begun doubt it will ever cease. > > > > One day the discussion will be how one used to debate about the term, > first everyone was this way about the word, than they were that way about > the word, and many large camps were formed in XXXX year to say why the word > should not be used, but then X years later other large camps formed to say > it is fine to use the word. I suppose it will only be when the debate > ceases will it come to pass that the debate will be forgotten. But will > that cessation solidify the use or non-use of the word? > > > > I understand the reasons for saying "cultural psychology." But for those > swimming in a culture where behaviorism is considered the soul of > psychology, adding "cultural" becomes a sad necessity. Even then, that > necessity only depends upon how one sees culture, as either as an additive, > an integral ingredient of psychology, or its basis. I believe I've read on > the list that one should be able to say "psychology" and just *know* that > it includes culture. I don't think we are there yet. > > > > Then that would be my argument to use "sociocultural" to understand it > includes history. CHAT is sort of a defensive term (well, it is an > acronym). But then... it leaves out "social" and is that OK? We certainly > should not say sociocultural historical activity theory because that > acronym is very unfulfilling. What is nice about CHAT though is that to > chat is an activity of speech, and there is a implied meaning that also > pertains to Vygotskian theories, and therefore meaningful. > > > > In a sense, it's not the meaning that we are arguing over, but how the > limitations of our particular language fails to convey a meaning with such > precision that it thereby to parses away any other inappropriate meaning. > I'm just not sure that the project is one that can be achieved > successfully, even if it succeeds for an interim. > > > > At the same time I can see why story of the elephant and the blind men > also have a part to play in our understandings and assumptions. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Annalisa, I have only been talking and writing about Vygotsky and co. > since about 2000 and have been openly Marxist since the 1960s (indeed, > Vygotsky is core to how I understand Marx) and never had any reason not to > be. But it is true that when Mike first went to Moscow, it was at the > height of the Cold War, and when he and others first brought Vygotsky's > ideas to the USA, there was a lot of resistance to their Marxist content. I > think the naming issue only arose as Vygotsky and the others began to build > a real following. The issues with the choice of name change over the years, > as you say. I prefer" CHAT," but sometimes I use "Cultural Psychology" and > sometimes I use "Activity Theory" depending on the context. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Andy, et al, > > > > I sort of came to this a little late in the thread, but I can offer that > Vera John-Steiner didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian > theory, but as I learn more about the word (thank you Mike), I can see how > once a word is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard for the > association to be broken. > > > > I think it's that way with words all the time coming and going out of > favor, or meanings shifting, like the game of telephone, but across > generations and cultures. > > > > Might I contribute to the discussion by asking whether the use of > "sociocultural" was also a means of making the theories more available in > the West (at least in the US). It seems there was redscare (you are welcome > read the double entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as you like) > prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the Marxist "brand" to > access the actual theories on child development? In other words, to > depoliticize the science? > > > > I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but as time passes, I can > see its problems. > > > > For me, I had preferred the word because historical was always a given for > me. In concern of the here and now, the real difficulty I had thought was > understanding the social- how interactions between the child and the > caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the -cultural, how the culture > impacts thought, those things are more of the micro level, but also > sociocultural, how the two also can interact and influence one another and > that combined bears its own signature on the mind and its development. As > far as History (capital H) that is sort of difficult to measure when we are > talking about child development as there is very little history that a > child has, unless we are talking about genetics, I suppose. > > > > Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect and am enriched by the > discourse in which we now we find ourselves immersed about it so thanks to > all for this. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > > *Sent:* Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have > garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. > > Jim Wertsch said: > > Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I > consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology > and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches > that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 > book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices > of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about > the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? > or ?cultural-historical.? > > Mike Cole told me: > > In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term > "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's > ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian > followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, > apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets > prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a > sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what > he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in > Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists > had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term > "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like > Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted > to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT > emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the > various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the > Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. > CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being > used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History > in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: > > I should have reported progress with my question. > > Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between > these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the > various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin > referred to on his academia.edu > > page for us all to read. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb_zokpkpg$ > > > As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: > > Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see > this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity > multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what > the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for > analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov > points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components > that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those > we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as > consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics > and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human > neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is > the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the > components more than others and he was acting nominally as a > psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these > components. > > > > I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am > talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does > not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in > motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. > > > > While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different > concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in > being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. > > > > BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social > sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication > with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This > project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. > > > > Chuck > > ---- > > ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? > > ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? > > Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. > > The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. > > History will judge. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb9kUKpvTg$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb84gPbYNA$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb8YyfMWtw$ > > > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. > > > > While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any > value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb9F2jS-Hg$ > "Pros > and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" > > > > As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so > sure the cons outweigh the pros here. > > > > But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could > Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If > so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? > > I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm > more outsider than insider and don't really know. > > > > Thank you for any insight. > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer wrote: > > I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. > > > > Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this > book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their > view it?s the best term: > > > > Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). *Sociocultural > studies of mind.* Cambridge University Press. > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the > term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word > "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is > the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices > of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action > " > published by Harvard University Press in 1991. > > Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context > dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this > book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and > artefacts mediating action. > > Thanks again to all > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > Andy-- > > > > Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb-H_mKR1w$ > > > Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the > years you'll get better granularity in the document search. > > On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click > on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. > > > > dk > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb_od1MviQ$ > > > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb-i3ZLWsg$ > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer wrote: > > The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in > English is this: > > > > A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero > > > > In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press > > > > Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use > the term ?sociocultural? frequently. > > > > The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, > and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study > of the Mexican. > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How > do we find out who wrote what in 1988? > > And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of > seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, > peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing > higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in > interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. > > Andy > > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: > > Andy: > > > > I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but > here's what I got. > > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb8ltXXQOA$ > " > width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 > frameborder=0 scrolling=no > > > > So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to > the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only > books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after > 1992 is Vygotsky though. > > > > Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very > different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the > trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. > > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb_od1MviQ$ > > > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb-i3ZLWsg$ > > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" > originated? > > Andy > > -- > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb-AlbOMDw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200521/c3735c23/attachment.html From bazerman@education.ucsb.edu Thu May 21 16:39:06 2020 From: bazerman@education.ucsb.edu (Charles Bazerman) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 16:39:06 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> <36147263-58ba-6908-ce60-bc367719772e@marxists.org> <71876107-fad8-3a23-2bd9-35d13d923268@marxists.org> Message-ID: Chuck ---- ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. History will judge. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!UdR-cXE19n-03Jjt39MDyaiXPCetvzV_ddvfJ8xBccyD4cmkbEtWZazzkkK4dIsilvUyDg$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!UdR-cXE19n-03Jjt39MDyaiXPCetvzV_ddvfJ8xBccyD4cmkbEtWZazzkkK4dIvDz5arhA$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!UdR-cXE19n-03Jjt39MDyaiXPCetvzV_ddvfJ8xBccyD4cmkbEtWZazzkkK4dIshZcKT2g$ Andy, Two historical notes: 1. Don't forget Berger and Luckmann's 1966 Book Social Construction of Reality, which is built on Luckmann's earlier work on sociological phenomenology. 2. And on the right always lurking in deconstruction, remember Paul DeMan and his checkered past. Chuck (1) The discovery of the "social construction of reality" was an > achievement of the Left, the progressives, with people like the Critical > Psychologists, the theorists of postmodernism and post-structural feminists > in the 1970s an 80s, who exposed how taken-for-granted facts along with the > truths of Science were on closer inspection ideological products of > dominant social groups. Of course, how reality is *seen *is an > inseparable part of how reality *is*. This insight led to a range of > powerful theoretical and practical critiques of all aspects of society. > Feminists offered an alternative way of interpreting reality as a powerful > lever for changing that reality by undermining patriarchal structures and > certainties. So far so good. But today, in 2020, it is not progressives who > are asking "who decides?" and calling into question the very idea of truth > and fact: it is Donald Trump and Rudi Giuliani. Quite honestly, this > outcome was always implicit in the postmodern and poststructuralist > critique. Or, could I say: "Donald Trump is a more evolved form of Judith > Butler" if I thought in those terms, which I don't. > >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200521/d9f8c00d/attachment.html From Peg.Griffin@att.net Thu May 21 17:15:53 2020 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin, Ph.D.) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 20:15:53 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> <36147263-58ba-6908-ce60-bc367719772e@marxists.org> <71876107-fad8-3a23-2bd9-35d13d923268@marxis ts.org> Message-ID: <008201d62fce$28b55830$7a200890$@att.net> Immediate and mediated everything: Friend?s daughter teaching here hit the local news https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wjla.com/news/local/kevin-guinea-pig-online-learning-dc-kindergarten-school__;!!Mih3wA!S_59Klwj00-OAj9LAxFG8SW13MzHyUXbVceSneJi8HAxcIflKKd5nNKnJX_dcwFIOpRdjw$ Are teachers being called on to rise to the concrete of both immediate and mediated? It also got picked up by a ?classy? print outlet, seems to be shouting out ?re-mediated? to me: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.washingtonian.com/2020/05/20/kevin-the-classroom-guinea-pig-is-staying-in-touch-with-kindergartners-via-zoom/__;!!Mih3wA!S_59Klwj00-OAj9LAxFG8SW13MzHyUXbVceSneJi8HAxcIflKKd5nNKnJX_dcwH9s2Qf-g$ Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 7:20 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? This is a point I have struggled to make for many years, Andy. I didn't know I was quoting Hegel: Hegel: 'Everything is both immediate and mediated." The challenge is to rise to the concrete with this abstraction or its just la la la. mike On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 6:42 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Of course, Annalisa, I agree that Science is a moral practice, but that is not what is at issue here. Two issues concern me with what you have said: (1) the question of "who decides?" and (2) the quantification of development as in "more evolved" bringing with it the implication of moral value attached to development. (1) The discovery of the "social construction of reality" was an achievement of the Left, the progressives, with people like the Critical Psychologists, the theorists of postmodernism and post-structural feminists in the 1970s an 80s, who exposed how taken-for-granted facts along with the truths of Science were on closer inspection ideological products of dominant social groups. Of course, how reality is seen is an inseparable part of how reality is. This insight led to a range of powerful theoretical and practical critiques of all aspects of society. Feminists offered an alternative way of interpreting reality as a powerful lever for changing that reality by undermining patriarchal structures and certainties. So far so good. But today, in 2020, it is not progressives who are asking "who decides?" and calling into question the very idea of truth and fact: it is Donald Trump and Rudi Giuliani. Quite honestly, this outcome was always implicit in the postmodern and poststructuralist critique. Or, could I say: "Donald Trump is a more evolved form of Judith Butler" if I thought in those terms, which I don't. Hegel takes up this problem with the maxim: "Everything is both immediate and mediated." Yes, social interests dominant in a certain social domain by definition determine what is true in that domain (though remember, every social domain is finite and has its boundaries). But that is not just by saying something about an independently existing reality which can be subject to any number of alternative representations (as Kant would have it), but rather the dominant social interests determine that reality itself. They do that both immediately and through the ideal representation of that reality which is part of that reality. You can't "decide" by a purely discursive moves - you have to change that reality. You do that with the weapons of both theoretical and practical critique. What this means is that you can study the documents (assuming you weren't personally present) of some past dispute and see with your own eyes how and why some people formulated new word meanings, and began to use these new word meaning(s) in their own communication, and thereby facilitated others from using this word meaning, and the relevant concepts, in their work, and so on. (2) As perhaps I have illustrated in my example above that there is no implication of "higher" in development. In my own education, it was Sylvia Scribner's "Uses of History" (1985) which explained this to me. "Higher" implies comparison and comparison in turn implies interchangeability. For example, if I was considering whether to emigrate to the US or France, I might consider public safety as a metric and decide that France was superior to the US and make my decision accordingly. Or, I might consider job availability for an English-speaking monoglot like me as the metric, and decide that the US was superior to France. But to decide that the US is superior to France or vice versa without the choice and the relevant metric is the moral judgment which neither you nor I find acceptable. They're just different. Understanding word meanings and concepts entails an analysis of both how the word is used in the field in question, and the history as to how it came to be so. Using the concept of "germ cell," I can work my way back and forth through an etymological field, forensically, like a detective, until I can connect the particular use of the word which emerged as a germ cell at some earlier time, in some situation where the implication of choosing that word meaning was abundantly clear to all, which allows me to see why someone felt the need (now forgotten) to introduce the word meaning and what it's absence would mean here and now, where it is already taken for granted. My apologies for the unacceptably long message, which is much against my own mores, but I don't know how to clarify these issues more succinctly. Andy _____ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 20/05/2020 3:51 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: Hi Andy, I suppose the issue about being on a branch of evolution has more to do with who decides what the branch is. Is it time? or is it topical? or is it based upon the interlocutors? If we say one word usage is more "evolved" than another, I suppose I am just pushing back on that because who decides what is more evolved? Forgive me, but can we ever say that if something is more "evolved" it is actually better? What do we actually mean when we say something is evolved? What if one term lasts over a longer arc of time than another usage? It seems if we use the evolution rubric, it would be considered more "fit" than the one that is changing over the same period of time. I do find it helpful that you to bring up the germ cell and how that concept pertains to analysis. That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm glad to know that to assign the parentheses does entail an ideological move, and that that can't be escaped. As long as we know what the ideology is, there is transparency in our analysis. I do think moral evaluations are worth including on all discussions, not necessarily to forbid discussions or scientific pursuits, but to use as landmarks to keep our bearings. Scientific concepts have a way of not being inclusive of contexts (i.e., lived experiences) or being grounded, right? Perhaps this is what made Vygotsky such a humane and compassionate scientific thinker is that he could understand how scientific concepts can be abusive tools for oppression. Anchoring them in lived experience shows their validity. Would this be a fair statement to you, Andy? Kind regards, Annalisa _____ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:23 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] Annalisa, "where does history start"? Effectively there is no starting point, and the choosing of a starting point is always an ideological move. Foucault does this to great effect. Ilyenkov deals with this in his book "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's Capital" and explains the need for what he calls the "logical-historical method." To short circuit the complexities of reading Ilyenkov, in CHAT we rely on the identification of the unit of analysis or "germ cell" to anchor our historical investigation. "Sociogenesis" is just Latin for "social development," the word I used. But if you are going to ascribe a moral value to "evolution" and then reject the concept on that basis, you'd better also reject "development" and all the "geneses" and evolution of species by natural selection and all modern biology while you are at it. Alternatively, you could choose not to ascribe moral values to scientific concepts, then the whole of science is open to you. Andy _____ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 18/05/2020 3:25 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: Hi Andy (& VO's), I think that that was my point, that we cannot capture everything in the word to describe the theory. And that is because of the limit of our language. Even where genesis actually is, where something starts can be difficult to pinpoint. I mean where does History actually start? These words that you mention phylogenesis, ethnogenesis, ontogenesis, are words that are like brackets of a pair of parentheses. Who decides where to put them? (And why not sociogenesis?) I'm not sure it's correct to say the choice of a word locates the user on a branch of a cultural evolutionary tree, because then that starts to mean that one speaker is more evolved than another based on the use of a word. It might be better to say that the choice of a word locates the user to a particular context. I could live with that. Kind regards, Annalisa _____ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:27 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] You're never going to succeed in formally capturing the full scope of the theory in a word, Annalisa. "socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory" still leave out biology and Darwin, which is a part of our theory, too. It is sometimes said that human development is the coincidence of four processes: phylogenesis (i.e., evolution of the species), cultural development (ethnogenesis, the development of technology and language), social development (one and the same culture has different classes and political groups side by side) and ontogenesis (even twins can grow up very differently according to the experiences (perezhivaniya) they go through). I tried to describe this in: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/ontogenesis.htm__;!!Mih3wA!S_59Klwj00-OAj9LAxFG8SW13MzHyUXbVceSneJi8HAxcIflKKd5nNKnJX_dcwGn7OUyyA$ But if you look into the history of a word what you will inevitably find is that at some point (in time and social space) there was some dispute, and this dispute was either (1) resolved by both parties agreeing and marking this agreement by the coining of a new word meaning or the dropping of a word meaning altogether, or (2) there is a split and one or both sides of the split adopt a word meaning which distinguishes them from the other side (structuralism's favourite trope) or variations on the above scenarios. So the choice of a word tends to locate the user on a branch in the cultural evolutionary tree. Andy _____ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 17/05/2020 11:56 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: David K & VO's What pray-tell is an anthropologue? I am divided (pun intended) about saying that sociocultural = social + culture, when they are intertwined holistically. To me, sociocultural points to a space in between, or perhaps better said to a context of interactions between individuals (who form a society) that are easily accepted among them and practiced over time. We can conceptually parse out the social and the cultural, but don't we do that because of the words and not because of the ostensible reality going on interactionally? Can we always understand something by dissecting it into parts? Again, this seems to be the limit of language, not of the conceptual context or content. In a sense to use the term "sociocultural" is to grab the tail of the tiger. The tail of the tiger is still the tiger, but perhaps a more manageable one than to grab its head. Perhaps this is why Vygotskians just call themselves Vygotskians to align themselves with the source of the first theories rather than to later conceptions and other developments (i.e. Leontiev, etc). Just thinking out loud. Another argument is that if we want to be all inclusive, then we have to include tool-use, as it's not the social, the culture, and the history, but also the language and tools used. I realize some practitioners would say that language is no different than a tool, but I feel language is different, even though it may have a similar cognitive response in the mind as would using a tool. Activity suggests tool use, though not always. Consider dance, or storytelling, or going for a walk. How about: socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory??? Yes! I am writing this a little tongue in cheek. I hope you do not mind. Kind regards, Annalsia _____ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:14 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] It's a very domain-specific umbrella, like those cane-brollies that go with a bowler. "Sociocultural" is strongly preferred used in second language acquisition, thanks to the influence of Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf and Matthew Poehner; I have never seen "cultural historical" used in this literature. But "cultural-historical" is similarly preferred in psychology and anthropology, thanks to the influence of J.V. Wertsch, Mike Cole, Martin Packer and Andy Blunden; that's really why we are having this discussion on what "socio-cultural" might mean on a list largely populated by roving psychologists and nomadic anthropologues. Interestingly, the Francophones prefer "historico-cultural", using the argument that you can understand the process without the product but not the product without the process. I stopped using "sociocultural" because I thought it was redundant, but now I am really not sure of this: it seems to me that the relationship is a similar one--you can study society as process without studying its cultural product (e.g. as demographics, economics, statistics) but you can't really study culture without some understanding of the process of its formation. There was a similar disagreement in systemic functional linguistics between Halliday and Jim Martin over the term "socio-semiotic". Martin said that it was redundant, because there couldn't be any semiotic without society. Halliday rather flippantly replied that ants had a society without a semiotics, and at the time it seemed to me that this was a non sequitur, first of all because ants don't really have a society in our sense (precisely because there is no such thing as an ant history separate from phylogenesis on the one hand and ontogenesis on the other) and secondly because ants most definitely do have a semiotics, albeit one based on chemistry and not perception as ours is. It seems to me, in retrospect, that the relationship between the semiotic and the social is much more like the relationship between the social and the biological, or even the biological and the chemical. The semiotic is a certain level of organization that the social has, but there are other levels, just as biology is a certain kind of chemical organization which does not exclude other, nonbiological ways organizing chemicals, and chemistry is a kind of physical organization which doesn't exclude sub-chemical organizations. Perhaps we can think of the relationship between culture and society in the same way? David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!S_59Klwj00-OAj9LAxFG8SW13MzHyUXbVceSneJi8HAxcIflKKd5nNKnJX_dcwEsaBTCxA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!S_59Klwj00-OAj9LAxFG8SW13MzHyUXbVceSneJi8HAxcIflKKd5nNKnJX_dcwEnTRkAeQ$ On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David H Kirshner > wrote: 4. As an umbrella term for any sociogenetic approach. Isn?t that its current usage? David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity < xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? Hi Andy, and VO's, What fascinates me is that the word "sociocultural" has a lot of different facets in terms of how the word was used in different contexts. It seems there are three I've been able to pick out. 1. as a derisive term in early Soviet history. 2. as an empowering term from Latin American voices. 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist "brand" at the height of the Cold War in the US. I'm not sure if I've done justice in the manner that I've represented that, but it is a well-intended attempt. Are there others? What I don't understand fully is whether there must be ONE explanation how the term came to be, or ONE definition of what it actually means. Can't it be polysemantic? polycontextual? If that is what's happening, then it makes sense that there would be an ongoing controversy about which one is the right definition or reason for not using it, depending on the interlocutor. If we are to talk about who used the term first, and that's where the value/authority holds, then all that tells us is that for those who value who used the term first. that's where the authority is. If we talk about the emotional attachment of the word as it is used in context and that's where the value/authority holds, then that tells us for those who value the most personal attachment to the word, that's where the authority is. If we talk about how the word was used functionally, where the value/authority holds in its efficacy, then all that tells is that for those who value whether the word works or not, that's where the authority is. I'm not sure one can put any of one these over the other two (or if there are more than that, if there are more). All we can say I suppose is whether in a particular context is the word "sociocultural" appropriate or not? I do find that this debate has begun to have its own life, this debate over the use of a word. I've begun doubt it will ever cease. One day the discussion will be how one used to debate about the term, first everyone was this way about the word, than they were that way about the word, and many large camps were formed in XXXX year to say why the word should not be used, but then X years later other large camps formed to say it is fine to use the word. I suppose it will only be when the debate ceases will it come to pass that the debate will be forgotten. But will that cessation solidify the use or non-use of the word? I understand the reasons for saying "cultural psychology." But for those swimming in a culture where behaviorism is considered the soul of psychology, adding "cultural" becomes a sad necessity. Even then, that necessity only depends upon how one sees culture, as either as an additive, an integral ingredient of psychology, or its basis. I believe I've read on the list that one should be able to say "psychology" and just *know* that it includes culture. I don't think we are there yet. Then that would be my argument to use "sociocultural" to understand it includes history. CHAT is sort of a defensive term (well, it is an acronym). But then... it leaves out "social" and is that OK? We certainly should not say sociocultural historical activity theory because that acronym is very unfulfilling. What is nice about CHAT though is that to chat is an activity of speech, and there is a implied meaning that also pertains to Vygotskian theories, and therefore meaningful. In a sense, it's not the meaning that we are arguing over, but how the limitations of our particular language fails to convey a meaning with such precision that it thereby to parses away any other inappropriate meaning. I'm just not sure that the project is one that can be achieved successfully, even if it succeeds for an interim. At the same time I can see why story of the elephant and the blind men also have a part to play in our understandings and assumptions. Kind regards, Annalisa _____ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Andy Blunden < andyb@marxists.org> Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu < xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] Annalisa, I have only been talking and writing about Vygotsky and co. since about 2000 and have been openly Marxist since the 1960s (indeed, Vygotsky is core to how I understand Marx) and never had any reason not to be. But it is true that when Mike first went to Moscow, it was at the height of the Cold War, and when he and others first brought Vygotsky's ideas to the USA, there was a lot of resistance to their Marxist content. I think the naming issue only arose as Vygotsky and the others began to build a real following. The issues with the choice of name change over the years, as you say. I prefer" CHAT," but sometimes I use "Cultural Psychology" and sometimes I use "Activity Theory" depending on the context. Andy _____ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: Andy, et al, I sort of came to this a little late in the thread, but I can offer that Vera John-Steiner didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian theory, but as I learn more about the word (thank you Mike), I can see how once a word is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard for the association to be broken. I think it's that way with words all the time coming and going out of favor, or meanings shifting, like the game of telephone, but across generations and cultures. Might I contribute to the discussion by asking whether the use of "sociocultural" was also a means of making the theories more available in the West (at least in the US). It seems there was redscare (you are welcome read the double entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as you like) prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the Marxist "brand" to access the actual theories on child development? In other words, to depoliticize the science? I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but as time passes, I can see its problems. For me, I had preferred the word because historical was always a given for me. In concern of the here and now, the real difficulty I had thought was understanding the social- how interactions between the child and the caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the -cultural, how the culture impacts thought, those things are more of the micro level, but also sociocultural, how the two also can interact and influence one another and that combined bears its own signature on the mind and its development. As far as History (capital H) that is sort of difficult to measure when we are talking about child development as there is very little history that a child has, unless we are talking about genetics, I suppose. Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect and am enriched by the discourse in which we now we find ourselves immersed about it so thanks to all for this. Kind regards, Annalisa _____ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best. Jim Wertsch said: Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches that I was building from. I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985 book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices of the Mind. It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about the Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were ?socio-historical? or ?cultural-historical.? Mike Cole told me: In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion. Andy _____ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: I should have reported progress with my question. Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin referred to on his academia.edu page for us all to read. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!S_59Klwj00-OAj9LAxFG8SW13MzHyUXbVceSneJi8HAxcIflKKd5nNKnJX_dcwHVbRnLMQ$ As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. Andy _____ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for analysis of the separate dimensions). The different terms that Veresov points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment. To those we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world). That is the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the components more than others and he was acting nominally as a psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these components. I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does not necessarily mean triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations. While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies. BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human"). This project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts. Chuck ---- ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. History will judge. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!S_59Klwj00-OAj9LAxFG8SW13MzHyUXbVceSneJi8HAxcIflKKd5nNKnJX_dcwEdakm-Mw$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!S_59Klwj00-OAj9LAxFG8SW13MzHyUXbVceSneJi8HAxcIflKKd5nNKnJX_dcwFq10edrQ$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!S_59Klwj00-OAj9LAxFG8SW13MzHyUXbVceSneJi8HAxcIflKKd5nNKnJX_dcwEAbIM6kg$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks, Andy. While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!S_59Klwj00-OAj9LAxFG8SW13MzHyUXbVceSneJi8HAxcIflKKd5nNKnJX_dcwFcCnOODg$ "Pros and Cons of (terminological) Diversity" As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so sure the cons outweigh the pros here. But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints? I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm more outsider than insider and don't really know. Thank you for any insight. Anthony On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer > wrote: I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their view it?s the best term: Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). Sociocultural studies of mind. Cambridge University Press. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action" published by Harvard University Press in 1991. Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and artefacts mediating action. Thanks again to all Andy _____ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote: Andy-- Go to to the Google N-gram site itself. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!S_59Klwj00-OAj9LAxFG8SW13MzHyUXbVceSneJi8HAxcIflKKd5nNKnJX_dcwEJUmFsqg$ Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the years you'll get better granularity in the document search. On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search. dk David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!S_59Klwj00-OAj9LAxFG8SW13MzHyUXbVceSneJi8HAxcIflKKd5nNKnJX_dcwEsaBTCxA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!S_59Klwj00-OAj9LAxFG8SW13MzHyUXbVceSneJi8HAxcIflKKd5nNKnJX_dcwEnTRkAeQ$ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer > wrote: The earliest use of the term ?sociocultural? I?ve been able to find in English is this: A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use the term ?sociocultural? frequently. The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books, and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study of the Mexican. Martin On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How do we find out who wrote what in 1988? And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers, peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice. Andy _____ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote: Andy: I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but here's what I got. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!S_59Klwj00-OAj9LAxFG8SW13MzHyUXbVceSneJi8HAxcIflKKd5nNKnJX_dcwEpschxTg$ " width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 frameborder=0 scrolling=no So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after 1992 is Vygotsky though. Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!S_59Klwj00-OAj9LAxFG8SW13MzHyUXbVceSneJi8HAxcIflKKd5nNKnJX_dcwEsaBTCxA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!S_59Klwj00-OAj9LAxFG8SW13MzHyUXbVceSneJi8HAxcIflKKd5nNKnJX_dcwEnTRkAeQ$ On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology" originated? Andy -- _____ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!S_59Klwj00-OAj9LAxFG8SW13MzHyUXbVceSneJi8HAxcIflKKd5nNKnJX_dcwGRhrkUdA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200521/defba4b4/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Thu May 21 19:42:51 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 20:42:51 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning?/anonymity and social media In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8E0E4B47-71D8-4161-9577-47073C7DD535@gmail.com> Greg, In truth, I don?t think I can. It comes from Making Sense, a podcast run by Sam Harris. I have a paid subscription. But it?s Jonathan Haidt who argued against anonymity in public spaces on the internet: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Haidt__;!!Mih3wA!QEm1u6eCVc4pdtlhSg1zOpf__XZWyVDRBHwP8eh0pK32ofWkxWoS16Q7msVvUlaw2USlMQ$ . Henry > On May 21, 2020, at 2:20 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > Henry, > Can you share the link for the Haidt interview? > Thanks, > Greg > > On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 1:13 PM HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > David, > Doesn?t Vygotsky make much the same case for learning and development that you do for evolution and devolution in society? Or is it that development requires an addittive process that is external to the child, followed by some kind of internalization that rearranges the structure of the child?s thinking. The hydrogen + oxygen ?> Water process. If we are lucky. Like in South Korea, where a herd immunity to Covid-19 is developing. SK + Covid-19?> Herd Immunity. This ?> like some kind of social perizhvanie. Biologically, Mr. Schmidt is the vector of social media, driven by financial gain and power, setting us up for more crisis. > > Back to physics and an analogy I heard the psychologist Jonathan Haidt say on a podcast today: Let?s say that the force of gravity suddenly doubled. That would do to our physical universe what the introduction of social media has done to our social universe. In that same podcast. Haidt said that the only thing that can save us from a complete meltdown is to make anonymous access to public spaces in social media impossible. I would be interested in responses to this. I think this is relevant to the subject line of on-line learning. > > Henry > >> On May 20, 2020, at 5:16 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: >> >> I don't think that photography really replaced painting, nor do I think that television ever replaced printing. In both cases, there was some encroachment and then an "involution" (a die-off) where functions overlapped. For example, we no longer pay for expensive family portraits, and the number of people who watch Downton Abbey is probably a lot greater than the number that read Anthony Trollope. But where functions did not redound (e.g. abstraction in painting and forensics in photography, advertising in television vs. psychological prose) there was enrichment and evolution. Crises only become pathological when involution fails to occur, and when the transitional forms thrown up at critical times become permanent ones. We cannot make salads from the cotyledons of our lettuce greens. >> >> I think that pathological tendency is exactly what Mr. Schmidt and his colleagues are pushing with their attempt to make on-line learning economically sustainable even when it is not educationally so. Rebecca Schuman recently pointed out that the expense of online learning to universities is greater than classroom learning (because it requires you to pay faculty AND tech support). So you can only turn a profit if you make it permanent (You have to do what Chairman Mao used to do in the old Peasant Studies Institute in revolutionary Guangzhou: "keep the blackboard and erase the students"). On-line learning in a way presents the OPPOSITE problem that photograhy presented to painting and television presented to printing. Photography is better at "unmediated" presentation than painting, and television rewards attention rather than concentration. Like photography and TV, face to face conversation is just a whole lot better at these. >> >> Much the same may be said about Mr. Schmidt's response to China and South Korea's response, which is explicitly and avowedly pro-individualism and implicitly and covertly pro-US imperialist. But whether or not Mr. Schmidt agrees to it, the Anglo-American approach of preventative-but-not-public medicine is going to involute, and very quickly too. One example will suffice. Yesterday KCDC released a report on the "reinfection" phenomenon--the fact that people who recover will test positive again in a few months. The Koreans found that this was due to deactivated virus particles which persist in the body but which are detected by oversensitive testing. This is REALLY big news--it essentially means that humans as a species will eventually survive Covid 19 in more or less the way we prevailed over the Black Death and small pox. But the study was done here in Korea, and it was publisihed only in Korean; the rest of the world had to read the abstract. >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!QEm1u6eCVc4pdtlhSg1zOpf__XZWyVDRBHwP8eh0pK32ofWkxWoS16Q7msVvUlYG7JkEIw$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QEm1u6eCVc4pdtlhSg1zOpf__XZWyVDRBHwP8eh0pK32ofWkxWoS16Q7msVvUlZslpZF9A$ >> >> >> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 7:02 AM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >> Hi Mike, >> >> But then how is it that we even exist, having these conversations? If this were all true? >> >> There is within each individual the freedom to choose, we are not all automatons. >> >> I suppose what I mean to say is that if we say it's hopeless, then it is. >> >> So then why even bother? >> >> Why not just give up the ghost (and resignedly accept our bourgeois-reality as the medicine we are spoonfed)? Are we talking about the borg? Is resistance futile? >> >> To hell with that (narrative)! >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 3:34 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> [EXTERNAL] >> >> Annalisa -- I believe that Tom's point is that such promising innovations are almost always >> possible on the fringes of educational practice, but that they are inevitably domesticated or >> stomped on by pre-existing regimes of power. >> >> That is what Adorno argued in the post-WWII. And many before and since. >> mike >> >> On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 2:29 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >> Hi Tom, >> >> May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? >> >> Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed by SL's prospects. >> >> In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. >> >> Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. >> >> What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. >> >> I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of associations of place with learning. >> >> In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and constrain learning to books. >> >> We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. >> >> I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of learning. >> >> I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged learning venues . Not with grade school. >> >> I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. >> >> I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. >> >> What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!QEm1u6eCVc4pdtlhSg1zOpf__XZWyVDRBHwP8eh0pK32ofWkxWoS16Q7msVvUlYcLesK3A$ >> >> It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. >> >> It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. >> >> Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. >> >> If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be integrated with existing models. >> >> If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. >> >> One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and surveillance is a constructive combination. >> >> There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. >> >> This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and introspection, I will never accept that reality. >> >> To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers and pins." >> >> I just do not believe this narrative. >> >> We cannot give up. >> >> Is there a fight ahead? Yes. >> >> Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most definitely, yes. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> [EXTERNAL] >> >> >> Hello Annalisa >> Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. >> What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such learning takes place?'. >> What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes for the perezhivanie of the learner, which shapes her social being and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? >> Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. >> I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. >> >> Kind regards >> Tom >> >> >> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >> Hello Tom, >> >> Thank you for posting the link. >> >> I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended into our lives. >> >> I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. >> >> At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. >> >> Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). >> >> I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. >> >> Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. >> >> She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control the world. >> >> Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to deliberate the way forward. >> >> As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency to decide how to use our tools. >> >> Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. >> >> So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply does not hold water for me. >> >> I hope this might be a little encouraging. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > >> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> [EXTERNAL] >> >> Hello Tom Richardson >> This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat Project" that has just finished its >> planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human development, and theories of "Development >> in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. >> Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. >> The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. >> In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced >> a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most members of this discussion over the years, >> is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). >> >> We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. >> >> Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about for 100 years. >> Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing working models of effective practices that do NOT >> assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. >> >> Thanks for asking. >> mike >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson > wrote: >> Greetings Xmca-ers >> I would like to raise a question. >> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening recently: >> >> >> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks after that article appeared, he described the ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the country had been forced to cobble together during this public health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. >> >> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!QEm1u6eCVc4pdtlhSg1zOpf__XZWyVDRBHwP8eh0pK32ofWkxWoS16Q7msVvUlbEpG1sRA$ >> >> Just asking >> Tom Richardson >> Middlesbrough UK >> >> > >> >> -- >> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu . >> For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . >> For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net . >> >> >> >> >> -- >> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QEm1u6eCVc4pdtlhSg1zOpf__XZWyVDRBHwP8eh0pK32ofWkxWoS16Q7msVvUlZEeMM7UQ$ >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu . >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . >> >> >> > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!QEm1u6eCVc4pdtlhSg1zOpf__XZWyVDRBHwP8eh0pK32ofWkxWoS16Q7msVvUlaKpm-4TA$ > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!QEm1u6eCVc4pdtlhSg1zOpf__XZWyVDRBHwP8eh0pK32ofWkxWoS16Q7msVvUlYsn0ioSQ$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200521/f9cd26ee/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Thu May 21 20:51:50 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 13:51:50 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> <36147263-58ba-6908-ce60-bc367719772e@marxists.org> <71876107-fad8-3a23-2bd9-35d13d923268@marxists.org> Message-ID: <76d5fed9-4397-5cf6-aed4-d537df05af17@marxists.org> Yes, last week in our Hegel Reading Group we read the section in the? Shorter Logic, following his critiques of Kant and Descartes, Hegel explains how thought is both immediate /and/ immediate, and even over Zoom I could see the clouds gradually receding from my young students' eyes. All of a sudden the whole fruitless argument between scepticism and dogmatism, relativism and historicism, fell away. The most difficult thing to grasp was how perception was not just immediate and mediated, but both were essentially present in the same moment, how without the cultural training of the senses the brain could not make any sense at all of the nervous stimulation of the organs of sight, etc. Andy PS. the exact quote from Hegel is: "there is nothing, nothing in heaven, or in nature or in mind or anywhere else which does not equally contain both immediacy and mediation" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/hl/hlbegin.htm*0092__;Iw!!Mih3wA!TUMhXu_xWvwV4y6fvpgv4VHU2relV4Y4V5cWZTRpCZSmXSJxKlYezU-yXkbrDDuPh_oxBg$ ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 22/05/2020 9:20 am, mike cole wrote: > This is a point I have struggled to make for many years, > Andy. I didn't know I was quoting Hegel: > > Hegel: > 'Everything is both immediate and mediated." > > The challenge is to rise to the concrete with this > abstraction or its just la la la. > > mike > > On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 6:42 PM Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > Of course, Annalisa, I agree that Science is a moral > practice, but that is not what is at issue here. > > > Two issues concern me with what you have said: (1) the > question of "who decides?" and (2) the quantification > of development as in "more evolved" bringing with it > the implication of moral value attached to development. > > > (1) The discovery of the "social construction of > reality" was an achievement of the Left, the > progressives, with people like the Critical > Psychologists, the theorists of postmodernism and > post-structural feminists in the 1970s an 80s, who > exposed how taken-for-granted facts along with the > truths of Science were on closer inspection > ideological products of dominant social groups. Of > course, how reality is /seen /is an inseparable part > of how reality /is/. This insight led to a range of > powerful theoretical and practical critiques of all > aspects of society. Feminists offered an alternative > way of interpreting reality as a powerful lever for > changing that reality by undermining patriarchal > structures and certainties. So far so good. But today, > in 2020, it is not progressives who are asking "who > decides?" and calling into question the very idea of > truth and fact: it is Donald Trump and Rudi Giuliani. > Quite honestly, this outcome was always implicit in > the postmodern and poststructuralist critique. Or, > could I say: "Donald Trump is a more evolved form of > Judith Butler" if I thought in those terms, which I don't. > > > Hegel takes up this problem with the maxim: > "Everything is both immediate and mediated." Yes, > social interests dominant in a certain social domain > by definition determine what is true in that domain > (though remember, every social domain is finite and > has its boundaries). But that is not just by saying > something about an/independently existing/ reality > which can be subject to any number of /alternative/ > representations (as Kant would have it), but rather > the dominant social interests /determine that reality > itself/. They do that both /immediately /and /through > the ideal representation/ of that reality which is > *part of that reality*. You can't "decide" by a purely > discursive moves - you have to /change /that reality. > You do that with the weapons of both theoretical and > practical critique. > > > What this means is that you can study the documents > (assuming you weren't personally present) of some past > dispute and see with your own eyes how and why some > people formulated new word meanings, and began to use > these new word meaning(s) in their own communication, > and thereby facilitated others from using this word > meaning, and the relevant concepts, in their work, and > so on. > > > (2) As perhaps I have illustrated in my example above > that there is no implication of "higher" in > development. In my own education, it was Sylvia > Scribner's "Uses of History" (1985) which explained > this to me. "Higher" implies comparison and comparison > in turn implies /interchangeability/. For example, if > I was considering whether to emigrate to the US or > France, I might consider public safety as a metric and > decide that France was superior to the US and make my > decision accordingly. Or, I might consider job > availability for an English-speaking monoglot like me > as the metric, and decide that the US was superior to > France. But to decide that the US is superior to > France or vice versa without the choice and the > relevant metric is the moral judgment which neither > you nor I find acceptable. They're just different. > > > Understanding word meanings and concepts entails an > analysis of *both *how the word is used in the field > in question, and the history as to how it came to be > so. Using the concept of "germ cell," I can work my > way back and forth through an etymological field, > forensically, like a detective, until I can connect > the particular use of the word which emerged as a germ > cell at some earlier time, in some situation where the > implication of choosing that word meaning was > abundantly clear to all, which allows me to see *why* > someone felt the need (now forgotten) to introduce the > word meaning and what it's absence would mean here and > now, where it is already taken for granted. > > > My apologies for the unacceptably long message, which > is much against my own mores, but I don't know how to > clarify these issues more succinctly. > > > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 20/05/2020 3:51 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> Hi Andy, >> >> I suppose the issue about being on a branch of >> evolution has more to do with who decides what the >> branch is. Is it time? or is it topical? or is it >> based upon the interlocutors? >> >> If we say one word usage is more "evolved" than >> another, I suppose I am just pushing back on that >> because who decides what is more evolved? >> >> Forgive me, but can we ever say that if something is >> more "evolved" it is actually better? What do we >> actually mean when we say something is evolved? >> >> What if one term lasts over a longer arc of time than >> another usage? It seems if we use the evolution >> rubric, it would be considered more "fit" than the >> one that is changing over the same period of time. >> >> I do find it helpful that you to bring up the germ >> cell and how that concept pertains to analysis. That >> makes a lot of sense to me. I'm glad to know that to >> assign the parentheses does entail an ideological >> move, and that that can't be escaped. As long as we >> know what the ideology is, there is transparency in >> our analysis. >> >> I do think moral evaluations are worth including on >> all discussions, not necessarily to forbid >> discussions or scientific pursuits, but to use as >> landmarks to keep our bearings. Scientific concepts >> have a way of not being inclusive of contexts (i.e., >> lived experiences) or being grounded, right? >> >> Perhaps this is what made Vygotsky such a humane and >> compassionate scientific thinker is that he could >> understand how scientific concepts can be abusive >> tools for oppression. Anchoring them in lived >> experience shows their validity. Would this be a fair >> statement to you, Andy? >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> >> on behalf of >> Andy Blunden >> >> *Sent:* Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:23 PM >> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> >> >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >> >> *? [EXTERNAL]* >> >> ** >> >> Annalisa, "where does history start"? Effectively >> there is no starting point, and the choosing of a >> starting point is always an ideological move. >> Foucault does this to great effect. Ilyenkov deals >> with this in his book "The Abstract and Concrete in >> Marx's Capital" and explains the need for what he >> calls the "logical-historical method." To short >> circuit the complexities of reading Ilyenkov, in CHAT >> we rely on the identification of the unit of analysis >> or "germ cell" to anchor our historical investigation. >> >> >> "Sociogenesis" is just Latin for "social >> development," the word I used. But if you are going >> to ascribe a moral value to "evolution" and then >> reject the concept on that basis, you'd better also >> reject "development" and all the "geneses" and >> evolution of species by natural selection and all >> modern biology while you are at it. Alternatively, >> you could choose *not* to ascribe moral values to >> scientific concepts, then the whole of science is >> open to you. >> >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 18/05/2020 3:25 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> Hi Andy (& VO's), >>> >>> I think that that was my point, that we cannot >>> capture everything in the word to describe the >>> theory. And that is because of the limit of our >>> language. >>> >>> Even where genesis actually is, where something >>> starts can be difficult to pinpoint. I mean where >>> does History actually start? >>> >>> These words that you mention phylogenesis, >>> ethnogenesis, ontogenesis, are words that are like >>> brackets of a pair of parentheses. Who decides where >>> to put them? (And why not sociogenesis?) >>> >>> I'm not sure it's correct to say the choice of a >>> word locates the user on a branch of a cultural >>> evolutionary tree, because then that starts to mean >>> that one speaker is more evolved than another based >>> on the use of a word. >>> >>> It might be better to say that the choice of a word >>> locates the user to a particular context. I could >>> live with that. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> >>> on behalf >>> of Andy Blunden >>> >>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:27 PM >>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> >>> >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >>> >>> *[EXTERNAL]* >>> >>> You're never going to succeed in formally capturing >>> the full scope of the theory in a word, Annalisa. >>> "socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity >>> theory" still leave out biology and Darwin, which is >>> a part of our theory, too. >>> >>> >>> It is sometimes said that human development is the >>> coincidence of *four* processes: *phylogenesis >>> *(i.e., evolution of the species), cultural >>> development (*ethnogenesis*, the development of >>> technology *and *language), *social development* >>> (one and the same culture has different classes and >>> political groups side by side) and *ontogenesis >>> *(even twins can grow up very differently according >>> to the experiences (/perezhivaniya/) they go >>> through). I tried to describe this in: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/ontogenesis.htm__;!!Mih3wA!TUMhXu_xWvwV4y6fvpgv4VHU2relV4Y4V5cWZTRpCZSmXSJxKlYezU-yXkbrDDucEMmBHg$ >>> >>> >>> >>> But if you look into the history of a word what you >>> will inevitably find is that at some point (in time >>> and social space) there was some dispute, and this >>> dispute was either (1) resolved by both parties >>> agreeing and marking this agreement by the coining >>> of a new word meaning or the dropping of a word >>> meaning altogether, or (2) there is a split and one >>> or both sides of the split adopt a word meaning >>> which distinguishes them from the other side >>> (structuralism's favourite trope) or variations on >>> the above scenarios. >>> >>> >>> So the choice of a word tends to locate the user on >>> a branch in the cultural evolutionary tree. >>> >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> On 17/05/2020 11:56 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>>> David K & VO's >>>> >>>> What pray-tell is an anthropologue? >>>> >>>> I am divided (pun intended) about saying that >>>> sociocultural = social + culture, when they are >>>> intertwined holistically. To me, sociocultural >>>> points to a space in between, or perhaps better >>>> said to a context of interactions between >>>> individuals (who form a society) that are easily >>>> accepted among them and practiced over time. >>>> >>>> We can conceptually parse out the social and the >>>> cultural, but don't we do that because of the words >>>> and not because of the ostensible reality going on >>>> interactionally? Can we always understand something >>>> by dissecting it into parts? >>>> >>>> Again, this seems to be the limit of language, not >>>> of the conceptual context or content. >>>> >>>> In a sense to use the term "sociocultural" is to >>>> grab the tail of the tiger. The tail of the tiger >>>> is still the tiger, but perhaps a more manageable >>>> one than to grab its head. >>>> >>>> Perhaps this is why Vygotskians just call >>>> themselves Vygotskians to align themselves with the >>>> source of the first theories rather than to later >>>> conceptions and other developments (i.e. Leontiev, >>>> etc). Just thinking out loud. >>>> >>>> Another argument is that if we want to be all >>>> inclusive, then we have to include tool-use, as >>>> it's not the social, the culture, and the history, >>>> but also the language and tools used. I realize >>>> some practitioners would say that language is no >>>> different than a tool, but I feel language is >>>> different, even though it may have a similar >>>> cognitive response in the mind as would using a tool. >>>> >>>> Activity suggests tool use, though not always. >>>> Consider dance, or storytelling, or going for a walk. >>>> >>>> How about: socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical >>>> activity theory??? >>>> >>>> Yes! I am writing this a little tongue in cheek. I >>>> hope you do not mind. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalsia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> on behalf >>>> of David Kellogg >>>> >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:14 PM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> >>>> >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >>>> >>>> *[EXTERNAL]* >>>> >>>> It's a very domain-specific umbrella, like those >>>> cane-brollies that go with a bowler. >>>> "Sociocultural" is strongly preferred used in >>>> second language acquisition, thanks to the >>>> influence of Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf and Matthew >>>> Poehner; I have never seen "cultural historical" >>>> used in this literature. But "cultural-historical" >>>> is similarly preferred in psychology and >>>> anthropology, thanks to the influence of J.V. >>>> Wertsch, Mike Cole,?Martin Packer and Andy >>>> Blunden;?that's really why we are having this >>>> discussion on what "socio-cultural" might mean on a >>>> list largely populated by roving?psychologists and >>>> nomadic anthropologues. >>>> >>>> Interestingly, the Francophones prefer >>>> "historico-cultural", using the argument that you >>>> can understand the process without the product but >>>> not the product without the process. I stopped >>>> using "sociocultural" because I thought it was >>>> redundant, but now I am really not sure of this: it >>>> seems to me that the relationship is a similar >>>> one--you can study society as process without >>>> studying its cultural product (e.g. as >>>> demographics, economics, statistics) but you can't >>>> really study culture without some understanding of >>>> the process of its formation. >>>> >>>> There was a similar disagreement in systemic >>>> functional linguistics between Halliday and Jim >>>> Martin over the term "socio-semiotic". Martin said >>>> that it was redundant, because there couldn't be >>>> any semiotic without society.?Halliday rather >>>> flippantly replied that ants had a society without >>>> a semiotics, and at the time it seemed to me >>>> that?this was a?non sequitur,?first of all because >>>> ants don't really have a society in our?sense >>>> (precisely because there is no such thing as an ant >>>> history separate from phylogenesis on the one hand >>>> and ontogenesis on the other) and secondly because >>>> ants most definitely do have a semiotics, albeit >>>> one based on chemistry and not perception as ours is. >>>> >>>> It seems to me, in retrospect, that the >>>> relationship between the semiotic and the social is >>>> much more like the relationship between the social >>>> and the biological, or even the biological and the >>>> chemical. The semiotic is a certain level of >>>> organization that the social has, but there are >>>> other?levels, just as biology is a certain kind of >>>> chemical organization which does not exclude other, >>>> nonbiological ways organizing chemicals, >>>> and?chemistry is a kind of physical organization >>>> which doesn't exclude sub-chemical organizations. >>>> >>>> Perhaps we can think of the relationship between >>>> culture and society in the same way? >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual >>>> and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!TUMhXu_xWvwV4y6fvpgv4VHU2relV4Y4V5cWZTRpCZSmXSJxKlYezU-yXkbrDDsGhuOpUQ$ >>>> >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >>>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: >>>> Foundations of Pedology/" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TUMhXu_xWvwV4y6fvpgv4VHU2relV4Y4V5cWZTRpCZSmXSJxKlYezU-yXkbrDDvsnoWCeQ$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David H Kirshner >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> 4. As an umbrella term for any sociogenetic >>>> approach. >>>> >>>> Isn?t that its current usage? >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> >>> > *On >>>> Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> >>> > >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural >>>> psychology" ? >>>> >>>> Hi Andy, and VO's, >>>> >>>> What fascinates me is that the word >>>> "sociocultural" has a lot of different facets >>>> in terms of how the word was used in different >>>> contexts. It seems there are three I've been >>>> able to pick out. >>>> >>>> 1. as a derisive term in early Soviet history. >>>> 2. as an empowering term from Latin American >>>> voices. >>>> 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist "brand" at >>>> the height of the Cold War in the US. >>>> >>>> I'm not sure if I've done justice in the manner >>>> that I've represented that, but it is a >>>> well-intended attempt. Are there others? >>>> >>>> What I don't understand fully is whether there >>>> must be ONE explanation how the term came to >>>> be, or ONE definition of what it actually >>>> means. Can't it be polysemantic? polycontextual? >>>> >>>> If that is what's happening, then it makes >>>> sense that there would be an ongoing >>>> controversy about which one is the right >>>> definition or reason for not using it, >>>> depending on the interlocutor. >>>> >>>> If we are to talk about who used the term >>>> first, and that's where the value/authority >>>> holds, then all that tells us is that for those >>>> who value who used the term first. that's where >>>> the authority is. >>>> >>>> If we talk about the emotional attachment of >>>> the word as it is used in context and that's >>>> where the value/authority holds, then that >>>> tells us for those who value the most personal >>>> attachment to the word, that's where the >>>> authority is. >>>> >>>> If we talk about how the word was used >>>> functionally, where the value/authority holds >>>> in its efficacy, then all that tells is that >>>> for those who value whether the word works or >>>> not, that's where the authority is. >>>> >>>> I'm not sure one can put any of one these over >>>> the other two (or if there are more than that, >>>> if there are more). All we can say I suppose is >>>> whether in a particular context is the word >>>> "sociocultural" appropriate or not? >>>> >>>> I do find that this debate has begun to have >>>> its own life, this debate over the use of a >>>> word. I've begun doubt it will ever cease. >>>> >>>> One day the discussion will be how one used to >>>> debate about the term, first everyone was this >>>> way about the word, than they were that way >>>> about the word, and many large camps were >>>> formed in XXXX year to say why the word should >>>> not be used, but then X years later other large >>>> camps formed to say it is fine to use the word. >>>> I suppose it will only be when the debate >>>> ceases will it come to pass that the debate >>>> will be forgotten. But will that cessation >>>> solidify the use or non-use of the word? >>>> >>>> I understand the reasons for saying "cultural >>>> psychology." But for those swimming in a >>>> culture where behaviorism is considered the >>>> soul of psychology, adding "cultural" becomes a >>>> sad necessity.? Even then, that necessity only >>>> depends upon how one sees culture, as either as >>>> an additive, an integral ingredient of >>>> psychology, or its basis. I believe I've read >>>> on the list that one should be able to say >>>> "psychology" and just *know* that it includes >>>> culture. I don't think we are there yet. >>>> >>>> Then that would be my argument to use >>>> "sociocultural" to understand it includes >>>> history. CHAT is sort of a defensive term >>>> (well, it is an acronym). But then... it leaves >>>> out "social" and is that OK? We certainly >>>> should not say sociocultural historical >>>> activity theory because that acronym is very >>>> unfulfilling. What is nice about CHAT though is >>>> that to chat is an activity of speech, and >>>> there is a implied meaning that also pertains >>>> to Vygotskian theories, and therefore meaningful. >>>> >>>> In a sense, it's not the meaning that we are >>>> arguing over, but how the limitations of our >>>> particular language fails to convey a meaning >>>> with such precision that it thereby to parses >>>> away any other inappropriate meaning. I'm just >>>> not sure that the project is one that can be >>>> achieved successfully, even if it succeeds for >>>> an interim. >>>> >>>> At the same time I can see why story of the >>>> elephant and the blind men also have a part to >>>> play in our understandings and assumptions. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> >>> > on >>>> behalf of Andy Blunden >>> > >>>> *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM >>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> >>> > >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural >>>> psychology" ? >>>> >>>> *[EXTERNAL]* >>>> >>>> Annalisa, I have only been talking and writing >>>> about Vygotsky and co. since about 2000 and >>>> have been openly Marxist since the 1960s >>>> (indeed, Vygotsky is core to how I understand >>>> Marx) and never had any reason not to be. But >>>> it is true that when Mike first went to Moscow, >>>> it was at the height of the Cold War, and when >>>> he and others first brought Vygotsky's ideas to >>>> the USA, there was a lot of resistance to their >>>> Marxist content. I think the naming issue only >>>> arose as Vygotsky and the others began to build >>>> a real following. The issues with the choice of >>>> name change over the years, as you say. I >>>> prefer" CHAT," but sometimes I use "Cultural >>>> Psychology" and sometimes I use "Activity >>>> Theory" depending on the context. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>>> >>>> Andy, et al, >>>> >>>> I sort of came to this a little late in the >>>> thread, but I can offer that Vera >>>> John-Steiner didn't mind "sociocultural" to >>>> describe Vygotskian theory, but as I learn >>>> more about the word (thank you Mike), I can >>>> see how once a word is utilized with intent >>>> of derision, it's hard for the association >>>> to be broken. >>>> >>>> I think it's that way with words all the >>>> time coming and going out of favor, or >>>> meanings shifting, like the game of >>>> telephone, but across generations and >>>> cultures. >>>> >>>> Might I contribute to the discussion by >>>> asking whether the use of "sociocultural" >>>> was also a means of making the theories >>>> more available in the West (at least in the >>>> US). It seems there was redscare (you are >>>> welcome read the double entendre: "red >>>> scare" or "reds care", as you like) >>>> prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to >>>> remove the Marxist "brand" to access the >>>> actual theories on child development? In >>>> other words, to depoliticize the science? >>>> >>>> I had been a proponent of the use of the >>>> word, but as time passes, I can see its >>>> problems. >>>> >>>> For me, I had preferred the word because >>>> historical was always a given for me. In >>>> concern of the here and now, the real >>>> difficulty I had thought was understanding >>>> the social- how interactions between the >>>> child and the >>>> caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and >>>> the -cultural, how the culture impacts >>>> thought, those things are more of the micro >>>> level, but also sociocultural, how the two >>>> also can interact and influence one another >>>> and that combined bears its own signature >>>> on the mind and its development. As far as >>>> History (capital H) that is sort of >>>> difficult to measure when we are talking >>>> about child development as there is very >>>> little history that a child has, unless we >>>> are talking about genetics, I suppose. >>>> >>>> Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I >>>> respect and am enriched by the discourse in >>>> which we now we find ourselves immersed >>>> about it so thanks to all for this. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> on >>>> behalf of Andy Blunden >>>> >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM >>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural >>>> psychology" ? >>>> >>>> *[EXTERNAL]* >>>> >>>> In response to requests, I will elaborate. >>>> Apologies to Mike if I have garbled the >>>> long and complex story he told. I have done >>>> my best. >>>> >>>> Jim Wertsch said: >>>> >>>> Various people undoubtedly have various >>>> accounts of this, but I consciously >>>> started to use this in order to bring >>>> in cultural anthropology and also to >>>> avoid the unexamined social >>>> evolutionism in some approaches that I >>>> was building from.? I believe I started >>>> highlighting it in my 1985 book on >>>> Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of >>>> the subtitle of my book Voices of the >>>> Mind.? It is not a term used by Soviet >>>> scholars when talking about the >>>> Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms >>>> there were ?socio-historical? or >>>> ?cultural-historical.? >>>> >>>> Mike Cole told me: >>>> >>>> In addition to what has been said on >>>> line ... initially, the term >>>> "sociocultural" was used as a term of >>>> abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's >>>> ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it >>>> was not a term which his Russian >>>> followers ever embraced. The Soviet >>>> hostility to Vygotsky came to a head, >>>> apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a >>>> conference in Berlin and the Soviets >>>> prevented Russian delegates form >>>> attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on >>>> a sabbatical year, and had been in the >>>> Soviet Union, and was angry about what >>>> he saw, was at the congress too and >>>> went from there to a conference in >>>> Spain where a group of Spanish >>>> Vygotskyists were arguing that >>>> Vygotskyists had ignored the needs, >>>> etc., of the "global South" and they >>>> used the term "sociocultural" for their >>>> approach, meaning something like >>>> Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch >>>> embraced this idea and henceforth >>>> adopted to term, meaning to distinguish >>>> himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT >>>> emerged as a term a little later in an >>>> effort to unite the followers of the >>>> various brands of "Activity Theory" >>>> with those who did not embrace the >>>> Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian >>>> followers and stuck with Vygotsky. CHAT >>>> includes the H for History, because in >>>> all the various terms being used at >>>> that time, there was no attention to >>>> the important place of History in >>>> theory, and it was Mike who insisted on >>>> its inclusion. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>> >>>> I should have reported progress with my >>>> question. >>>> >>>> Jim Wertsch responded to me on email >>>> and Mike Cole Skyped me and between >>>> these two I have a very rich history of >>>> the usage of this term and the various >>>> nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike >>>> has put the article Martin referred to >>>> on his academia.edu >>>> >>>> page for us all to read. >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!TUMhXu_xWvwV4y6fvpgv4VHU2relV4Y4V5cWZTRpCZSmXSJxKlYezU-yXkbrDDtZmrH_XA$ >>>> >>>> >>>> As ever, XMCA has proved to be a >>>> bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Thank you Anthony for the >>>> interesting question and link. The >>>> way I see this issue is >>>> that?Vygotskian work attempts?to >>>> understand human activity >>>> multi-dimensionally (or even better >>>> holistically, trying to reunite >>>> what the emergence of various >>>> parochial disciplines have >>>> pulled?apart for analysis of the >>>> separate dimensions). The different >>>> terms that Veresov points out as >>>> contending are simply foregrounding >>>> those sets of components that are >>>> most salient to the particular >>>> analyst at that moment.? To those >>>> we might add other elements that >>>> Vygotsky was interested in such as >>>> consciousness and language and >>>> experience and mediation (and even >>>> economics and human knowledge?and >>>> education lurk in the background, >>>> as well as human neurodiversity as >>>> well as materialities of the >>>> experienced world).? That is the >>>> wonder of Vygotsky, even though he >>>> may have developed some of the >>>> components more than others and he >>>> was acting nominally as a >>>> psychologist--yet his approach >>>> allows the integration of all these >>>> components. >>>> >>>> I therefore use different >>>> conjunctions of terms depending on >>>> what I am talking about, and I see >>>> activity as the overarching >>>> term--though this does not >>>> necessarily mean triangles all the >>>> time. Rather activity is humans in >>>> motion, mobilizing multiple >>>> internal and external resources in >>>> situations. >>>> >>>> While I would like some stability >>>> in terms, right now our different >>>> concerns and issues leave salience >>>> mutable. And I am not >>>> yet?comfortable in being terminally >>>> enlisted into another scholar's >>>> transient saliencies. >>>> >>>> BTW, I see another related, >>>> parallel attempt at reintegrating >>>> the social sciences in the >>>> pragmatist project which has at >>>> times been in communication with >>>> the activity theory project (see my >>>> paper "Practically Human").? This >>>> project also never settled on a >>>> coherent set of terms and stable >>>> concepts. >>>> >>>> Chuck >>>> >>>> ---- >>>> >>>> ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? >>>> ??? ?????????? >>>> >>>> ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? >>>> >>>> Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de >>>> inmigrantes. >>>> >>>> The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. >>>> >>>> History will judge. >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!TUMhXu_xWvwV4y6fvpgv4VHU2relV4Y4V5cWZTRpCZSmXSJxKlYezU-yXkbrDDt7OuwzCg$ >>>> >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!TUMhXu_xWvwV4y6fvpgv4VHU2relV4Y4V5cWZTRpCZSmXSJxKlYezU-yXkbrDDuvHY8nqA$ >>>> >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!TUMhXu_xWvwV4y6fvpgv4VHU2relV4Y4V5cWZTRpCZSmXSJxKlYezU-yXkbrDDuHO5H3tw$ >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM >>>> Anthony Barra >>>> >>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Interesting question (and >>>> follow-ups) here.? Thanks, Andy. >>>> >>>> While not 100% related, I >>>> wonder if this brief, 2-minute >>>> excerpt adds any value: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!TUMhXu_xWvwV4y6fvpgv4VHU2relV4Y4V5cWZTRpCZSmXSJxKlYezU-yXkbrDDvYauMZmQ$ >>>> ?"Pros >>>> and Cons of (terminological) >>>> Diversity" >>>> >>>> As a non-expert, I can >>>> empathize with Nikolai's main >>>> point, but I'm not so sure the >>>> cons outweigh the pros here. >>>> >>>> But what WOULD happen if a >>>> terminological consensus was >>>> formed -- could Vygotsky's >>>> theory (and methodology), in >>>> fact, be definitively defined?? >>>> If so, would the?benefits of >>>> doing so outweigh the constraints? >>>> >>>> I'm guessing this is an old >>>> conversation, and maybe even >>>> stale, but I'm more outsider >>>> than insider and don't really know. >>>> >>>> Thank you for any insight. >>>> >>>> Anthony >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 >>>> AM Martin Packer >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> I had assumed you were >>>> looking for uses earlier >>>> than Jim Wertsch?s, Andy. >>>> >>>> Jim used the term in titles >>>> in 1989 too. And in the >>>> introduction to this book >>>> he, along with Pablo del >>>> Rio and Amelia Alvarez, >>>> explain why in their view >>>> it?s the best term: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Wertsch, J. V., del R?o, >>>> P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). >>>> (1995). /Sociocultural >>>> studies of mind./ Cambridge >>>> University Press. >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 12, 2020, at >>>> 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden >>>> >>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks to everyone for >>>> their help. It all went >>>> into the mix. Indeed, >>>> the term seems to have >>>> migrated from Spanish >>>> to English and the word >>>> "sociocultural" became >>>> popular in 1990, and it >>>> seems that Jim Wertsch >>>> is the fellow who >>>> triggered the explosion >>>> in "sociocultural >>>> psychology" with >>>> "Voices of the mind : a >>>> sociocultural approach >>>> to mediated action >>>> " >>>> published by Harvard >>>> University Press in 1991. >>>> >>>> Although >>>> "sociocultural" seems >>>> to be most widely >>>> associated with >>>> "context dependence," >>>> Wertsch's reference to >>>> "mediated action" in >>>> the title of this book >>>> makes it clear that for >>>> him "context" referred >>>> to the signs and >>>> artefacts mediating action. >>>> >>>> Thanks again to all >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social >>>> Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, >>>> David Kellogg wrote: >>>> >>>> Andy-- >>>> >>>> Go to to the Google >>>> N-gram site itself. >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!TUMhXu_xWvwV4y6fvpgv4VHU2relV4Y4V5cWZTRpCZSmXSJxKlYezU-yXkbrDDsSx3LIZQ$ >>>> >>>> >>>> Then do your own >>>> n-gram for >>>> "sociocultural >>>> psychology". If you >>>> set the years >>>> you'll get better >>>> granularity in the >>>> document search. >>>> >>>> On the bottom of >>>> the n-gram, there >>>> are some dates in >>>> blue--when you >>>> click on them, you >>>> should get a list >>>> of all the books >>>> used in the search. >>>> >>>> dk >>>> >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: >>>> Ruqaiya Hasan, in >>>> memoriam: A manual >>>> and a manifesto. >>>> >>>> Outlines, Spring >>>> 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!TUMhXu_xWvwV4y6fvpgv4VHU2relV4Y4V5cWZTRpCZSmXSJxKlYezU-yXkbrDDsGhuOpUQ$ >>>> >>>> >>>> New Translation >>>> with Nikolai >>>> Veresov: /L.S. >>>> Vygotsky's >>>> Pedological Works/ >>>> /Volume One: >>>> Foundations of >>>> Pedology/" >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TUMhXu_xWvwV4y6fvpgv4VHU2relV4Y4V5cWZTRpCZSmXSJxKlYezU-yXkbrDDvsnoWCeQ$ >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 13, >>>> 2020 at 11:17 AM >>>> Martin Packer >>>> >>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> The earliest >>>> use of the term >>>> ?sociocultural? >>>> I?ve been able >>>> to find in >>>> English is this: >>>> >>>> A?sociocultural >>>> psychology, >>>> by?Rogelio >>>> Diaz-Guerrero >>>> >>>> In "Chicano >>>> psychology", >>>> 1977 - Academic >>>> Press >>>> >>>> Diaz-Guerrero >>>> was Mexican >>>> psychologists >>>> whose >>>> publications in >>>> Spanish use the >>>> term >>>> ?sociocultural? >>>> frequently. >>>> >>>> The 2nd edition >>>> of Chicano >>>> Psychology is >>>> available in >>>> Google books, >>>> and?Diaz-Guerrero >>>> has a chapter >>>> in it, but >>>> titled The >>>> psychological >>>> study of the >>>> Mexican. >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 12, >>>> 2020, at >>>> 8:47 PM, >>>> Andy >>>> Blunden >>>> >>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> That graph >>>> from Google >>>> shows that >>>> usage of >>>> the term >>>> took off in >>>> 1988. How >>>> do we find >>>> out who >>>> wrote what >>>> in 1988? >>>> >>>> And Google >>>> also tell >>>> us that >>>> "Sociocultural?theory >>>> grew from >>>> the work of >>>> seminal?psychologist?Lev >>>> Vygotsky, >>>> who >>>> believed >>>> that >>>> parents, >>>> caregivers, >>>> peers, and >>>> the culture >>>> at large >>>> were >>>> responsible >>>> for >>>> developing >>>> higher-order >>>> functions. >>>> According >>>> to >>>> Vygotsky, >>>> learning >>>> has its >>>> basis in >>>> interacting >>>> with other >>>> people," >>>> together >>>> with a >>>> reference. >>>> So that is >>>> nice. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for >>>> Social >>>> Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On >>>> 13/05/2020 >>>> 11:30 am, >>>> David >>>> Kellogg wrote: >>>> >>>> Andy: >>>> >>>> I did a >>>> Google >>>> N-gram >>>> on it. >>>> You >>>> probably >>>> thought >>>> of >>>> doing >>>> this >>>> too, >>>> but >>>> here's >>>> what I got. >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!TUMhXu_xWvwV4y6fvpgv4VHU2relV4Y4V5cWZTRpCZSmXSJxKlYezU-yXkbrDDtL-qdWQg$ >>>> " >>>> width=900 >>>> height=500 >>>> marginwidth=0 >>>> marginheight=0 >>>> hspace=0 >>>> vspace=0 >>>> frameborder=0 >>>> scrolling=no >>>> >>>> So it >>>> all >>>> starts >>>> around >>>> 1960. >>>> At >>>> first I >>>> thought >>>> this >>>> probably >>>> referred >>>> to the >>>> Hanfmann >>>> and >>>> Vakar >>>> "Thought >>>> and >>>> Language", >>>> but >>>> when I >>>> looked >>>> the >>>> only >>>> books >>>> that >>>> used >>>> the >>>> term >>>> were >>>> sports >>>> psychology >>>> books. >>>> The big >>>> uptick >>>> after >>>> 1992 is >>>> Vygotsky >>>> though. >>>> >>>> Of >>>> course, >>>> this is >>>> all >>>> English >>>> only. I >>>> am sure >>>> you >>>> will >>>> find >>>> very >>>> different >>>> results >>>> in >>>> German, >>>> where >>>> "cultural >>>> historical >>>> psychology" >>>> is the >>>> trend >>>> identified >>>> with >>>> Dilthey, >>>> Spranger, >>>> and >>>> neo-Kantianism >>>> generally. >>>> >>>> >>>> David >>>> Kellogg >>>> >>>> Sangmyung >>>> University >>>> >>>> New >>>> Article: >>>> Ruqaiya >>>> Hasan, >>>> in >>>> memoriam: >>>> A >>>> manual >>>> and a >>>> manifesto. >>>> >>>> Outlines, >>>> Spring >>>> 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!TUMhXu_xWvwV4y6fvpgv4VHU2relV4Y4V5cWZTRpCZSmXSJxKlYezU-yXkbrDDsGhuOpUQ$ >>>> >>>> >>>> New >>>> Translation >>>> with >>>> Nikolai >>>> Veresov: >>>> /L.S. >>>> Vygotsky's >>>> Pedological >>>> Works/ >>>> /Volume >>>> One: >>>> Foundations >>>> of >>>> Pedology/" >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TUMhXu_xWvwV4y6fvpgv4VHU2relV4Y4V5cWZTRpCZSmXSJxKlYezU-yXkbrDDvsnoWCeQ$ >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, >>>> May 12, >>>> 2020 at >>>> 10:43 >>>> PM Andy >>>> Blunden >>>> >>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Can >>>> anyone >>>> tell >>>> me >>>> when >>>> and >>>> with >>>> whom >>>> the >>>> term >>>> "sociocultural >>>> psychology" >>>> originated? >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *Andy >>>> Blunden* >>>> Hegel >>>> for >>>> Social >>>> Movements >>>> >>>> Home >>>> Page >>>> >>>> >>>> > > > -- > > > "How does newness come into the world?? How is it born? > Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" > Salman Rushdie > > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TUMhXu_xWvwV4y6fvpgv4VHU2relV4Y4V5cWZTRpCZSmXSJxKlYezU-yXkbrDDtJagVTeQ$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu > . > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200522/2aa812d0/attachment-0001.html From andyb@marxists.org Thu May 21 20:53:46 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 13:53:46 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> <36147263-58ba-6908-ce60-bc367719772e@marxists.org> <71876107-fad8-3a23-2bd9-35d13d923268@marxists.org> Message-ID: <29a40d5e-7cb3-d4dc-20bb-969e10b301cf@marxists.org> Yes, I *was* going to mention Berger first off, but I thought these guys were relatively niche, until the 1970s. But you are right of course. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 22/05/2020 9:39 am, Charles Bazerman wrote: > > Chuck > ---- > ?? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? > ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? > Los Estados Unidos es una naci?n de inmigrantes. > The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. > History will judge. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!VgASZgwbNVobGExyn6zHXs6RObYZsZRdEptyMnSjLAIYQeVmBR6zZsOTKFqzdZhRuiR7uA$ > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!VgASZgwbNVobGExyn6zHXs6RObYZsZRdEptyMnSjLAIYQeVmBR6zZsOTKFqzdZhY1AXtqA$ > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!VgASZgwbNVobGExyn6zHXs6RObYZsZRdEptyMnSjLAIYQeVmBR6zZsOTKFqzdZi_t5wZdQ$ > > > Andy, > Two historical notes: > 1. Don't forget Berger and Luckmann's 1966?Book Social > Construction of Reality, which is built on Luckmann's > earlier work on sociological phenomenology. > 2. And on the right always lurking in deconstruction, > remember Paul DeMan and his checkered past. > Chuck > > ?(1) The discovery of the "social construction of > reality" was an achievement of the Left, the > progressives, with people like the Critical > Psychologists, the theorists of postmodernism and > post-structural feminists in the 1970s an 80s, who > exposed how taken-for-granted facts along with the > truths of Science were on closer inspection > ideological products of dominant social groups. Of > course, how reality is /seen /is an inseparable part > of how reality /is/. This insight led to a range of > powerful theoretical and practical critiques of all > aspects of society. Feminists offered an alternative > way of interpreting reality as a powerful lever for > changing that reality by undermining patriarchal > structures and certainties. So far so good. But today, > in 2020, it is not progressives who are asking "who > decides?" and calling into question the very idea of > truth and fact: it is Donald Trump and Rudi Giuliani. > Quite honestly, this outcome was always implicit in > the postmodern and poststructuralist critique. Or, > could I say: "Donald Trump is a more evolved form of > Judith Butler" if I thought in those terms, which I > don't. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200522/ef6e148c/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu May 21 20:59:21 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 20:59:21 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: <76d5fed9-4397-5cf6-aed4-d537df05af17@marxists.org> References: <21dfa17e-43cb-28e8-2d08-ed8409d5513a@marxists.org> <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> <36147263-58ba-6908-ce60-bc367719772e@marxists.org> <71876107-fad8-3a23-2bd9-35d13d923268@marxists.org> <76d5fed9-4397-5cf6-aed4-d537df05af17@marxists.org> Message-ID: Both HAVE TO BE present at once, Andy or there is no perception. Mike On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 8:55 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > Yes, last week in our Hegel Reading Group we read the section in the > Shorter Logic, following his critiques of Kant and Descartes, Hegel > explains how thought is both immediate *and* immediate, and even over > Zoom I could see the clouds gradually receding from my young students' > eyes. All of a sudden the whole fruitless argument between scepticism and > dogmatism, relativism and historicism, fell away. The most difficult thing > to grasp was how perception was not just immediate and mediated, but both > were essentially present in the same moment, how without the cultural > training of the senses the brain could not make any sense at all of the > nervous stimulation of the organs of sight, etc. > > Andy > > PS. the exact quote from Hegel is: "there is nothing, nothing in heaven, > or in nature or in mind or anywhere else which does not equally contain > both immediacy and mediation" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/hl/hlbegin.htm*0092__;Iw!!Mih3wA!WkcWw-Z3AI5QbHQG3kQk977PWXXDiVwBdpwxA8ArenUhjysOeMjqpavdBME_3DAxgv7suw$ > > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 22/05/2020 9:20 am, mike cole wrote: > > This is a point I have struggled to make for many years, Andy. I didn't > know I was quoting Hegel: > > Hegel: > 'Everything is both immediate and mediated." > > The challenge is to rise to the concrete with this abstraction or its just > la la la. > > mike > > On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 6:42 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Of course, Annalisa, I agree that Science is a moral practice, but that >> is not what is at issue here. >> >> >> Two issues concern me with what you have said: (1) the question of "who >> decides?" and (2) the quantification of development as in "more evolved" >> bringing with it the implication of moral value attached to development. >> >> >> (1) The discovery of the "social construction of reality" was an >> achievement of the Left, the progressives, with people like the Critical >> Psychologists, the theorists of postmodernism and post-structural feminists >> in the 1970s an 80s, who exposed how taken-for-granted facts along with the >> truths of Science were on closer inspection ideological products of >> dominant social groups. Of course, how reality is *seen *is an >> inseparable part of how reality *is*. This insight led to a range of >> powerful theoretical and practical critiques of all aspects of society. >> Feminists offered an alternative way of interpreting reality as a powerful >> lever for changing that reality by undermining patriarchal structures and >> certainties. So far so good. But today, in 2020, it is not progressives who >> are asking "who decides?" and calling into question the very idea of truth >> and fact: it is Donald Trump and Rudi Giuliani. Quite honestly, this >> outcome was always implicit in the postmodern and poststructuralist >> critique. Or, could I say: "Donald Trump is a more evolved form of Judith >> Butler" if I thought in those terms, which I don't. >> >> >> Hegel takes up this problem with the maxim: "Everything is both immediate >> and mediated." Yes, social interests dominant in a certain social domain by >> definition determine what is true in that domain (though remember, every >> social domain is finite and has its boundaries). But that is not just by >> saying something about an* independently existing* reality which can be >> subject to any number of *alternative* representations (as Kant would >> have it), but rather the dominant social interests *determine that >> reality itself*. They do that both *immediately *and *through the ideal >> representation* of that reality which is *part of that reality*. You >> can't "decide" by a purely discursive moves - you have to *change *that >> reality. You do that with the weapons of both theoretical and practical >> critique. >> >> >> What this means is that you can study the documents (assuming you weren't >> personally present) of some past dispute and see with your own eyes how and >> why some people formulated new word meanings, and began to use these new >> word meaning(s) in their own communication, and thereby facilitated others >> from using this word meaning, and the relevant concepts, in their work, and >> so on. >> >> >> (2) As perhaps I have illustrated in my example above that there is no >> implication of "higher" in development. In my own education, it was Sylvia >> Scribner's "Uses of History" (1985) which explained this to me. "Higher" >> implies comparison and comparison in turn implies *interchangeability*. >> For example, if I was considering whether to emigrate to the US or France, >> I might consider public safety as a metric and decide that France was >> superior to the US and make my decision accordingly. Or, I might consider >> job availability for an English-speaking monoglot like me as the metric, >> and decide that the US was superior to France. But to decide that the US is >> superior to France or vice versa without the choice and the relevant metric >> is the moral judgment which neither you nor I find acceptable. They're just >> different. >> >> >> Understanding word meanings and concepts entails an analysis of *both *how >> the word is used in the field in question, and the history as to how it >> came to be so. Using the concept of "germ cell," I can work my way back and >> forth through an etymological field, forensically, like a detective, until >> I can connect the particular use of the word which emerged as a germ cell >> at some earlier time, in some situation where the implication of choosing >> that word meaning was abundantly clear to all, which allows me to see >> *why* someone felt the need (now forgotten) to introduce the word >> meaning and what it's absence would mean here and now, where it is already >> taken for granted. >> >> >> My apologies for the unacceptably long message, which is much against my >> own mores, but I don't know how to clarify these issues more succinctly. >> >> >> Andy >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 20/05/2020 3:51 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> Hi Andy, >> >> I suppose the issue about being on a branch of evolution has more to do >> with who decides what the branch is. Is it time? or is it topical? or is it >> based upon the interlocutors? >> >> If we say one word usage is more "evolved" than another, I suppose I am >> just pushing back on that because who decides what is more evolved? >> >> Forgive me, but can we ever say that if something is more "evolved" it is >> actually better? What do we actually mean when we say something is evolved? >> >> What if one term lasts over a longer arc of time than another usage? It >> seems if we use the evolution rubric, it would be considered more "fit" >> than the one that is changing over the same period of time. >> >> I do find it helpful that you to bring up the germ cell and how that >> concept pertains to analysis. That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm glad to >> know that to assign the parentheses does entail an ideological move, and >> that that can't be escaped. As long as we know what the ideology is, there >> is transparency in our analysis. >> >> I do think moral evaluations are worth including on all discussions, not >> necessarily to forbid discussions or scientific pursuits, but to use as >> landmarks to keep our bearings. Scientific concepts have a way of not being >> inclusive of contexts (i.e., lived experiences) or being grounded, right? >> >> Perhaps this is what made Vygotsky such a humane and compassionate >> scientific thinker is that he could understand how scientific concepts can >> be abusive tools for oppression. Anchoring them in lived experience shows >> their validity. Would this be a fair statement to you, Andy? >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Andy Blunden >> >> *Sent:* Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:23 PM >> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> >> Annalisa, "where does history start"? Effectively there is no starting >> point, and the choosing of a starting point is always an ideological move. >> Foucault does this to great effect. Ilyenkov deals with this in his book >> "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's Capital" and explains the need for >> what he calls the "logical-historical method." To short circuit the >> complexities of reading Ilyenkov, in CHAT we rely on the identification of >> the unit of analysis or "germ cell" to anchor our historical investigation. >> >> >> "Sociogenesis" is just Latin for "social development," the word I used. >> But if you are going to ascribe a moral value to "evolution" and then >> reject the concept on that basis, you'd better also reject "development" >> and all the "geneses" and evolution of species by natural selection and all >> modern biology while you are at it. Alternatively, you could choose *not* >> to ascribe moral values to scientific concepts, then the whole of science >> is open to you. >> >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 18/05/2020 3:25 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> Hi Andy (& VO's), >> >> I think that that was my point, that we cannot capture everything in the >> word to describe the theory. And that is because of the limit of our >> language. >> >> Even where genesis actually is, where something starts can be difficult >> to pinpoint. I mean where does History actually start? >> >> These words that you mention phylogenesis, ethnogenesis, ontogenesis, are >> words that are like brackets of a pair of parentheses. Who decides where to >> put them? (And why not sociogenesis?) >> >> I'm not sure it's correct to say the choice of a word locates the user on >> a branch of a cultural evolutionary tree, because then that starts to mean >> that one speaker is more evolved than another based on the use of a word. >> >> It might be better to say that the choice of a word locates the user to a >> particular context. I could live with that. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Andy Blunden >> >> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:27 PM >> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> >> You're never going to succeed in formally capturing the full scope of the >> theory in a word, Annalisa. "socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity >> theory" still leave out biology and Darwin, which is a part of our theory, >> too. >> >> >> It is sometimes said that human development is the coincidence of *four* >> processes: *phylogenesis *(i.e., evolution of the species), cultural >> development (*ethnogenesis*, the development of technology *and *language), >> *social development* (one and the same culture has different classes and >> political groups side by side) and *ontogenesis *(even twins can grow up >> very differently according to the experiences (*perezhivaniya*) they go >> through). I tried to describe this in: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/ontogenesis.htm__;!!Mih3wA!WkcWw-Z3AI5QbHQG3kQk977PWXXDiVwBdpwxA8ArenUhjysOeMjqpavdBME_3DBHSUSkHw$ >> >> >> >> But if you look into the history of a word what you will inevitably find >> is that at some point (in time and social space) there was some dispute, >> and this dispute was either (1) resolved by both parties agreeing and >> marking this agreement by the coining of a new word meaning or the dropping >> of a word meaning altogether, or (2) there is a split and one or both sides >> of the split adopt a word meaning which distinguishes them from the other >> side (structuralism's favourite trope) or variations on the above scenarios. >> >> >> So the choice of a word tends to locate the user on a branch in the >> cultural evolutionary tree. >> >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 17/05/2020 11:56 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> David K & VO's >> >> What pray-tell is an anthropologue? >> >> I am divided (pun intended) about saying that sociocultural = social + >> culture, when they are intertwined holistically. To me, sociocultural >> points to a space in between, or perhaps better said to a context of >> interactions between individuals (who form a society) that are easily >> accepted among them and practiced over time. >> >> We can conceptually parse out the social and the cultural, but don't we >> do that because of the words and not because of the ostensible reality >> going on interactionally? Can we always understand something by dissecting >> it into parts? >> >> Again, this seems to be the limit of language, not of the conceptual >> context or content. >> >> In a sense to use the term "sociocultural" is to grab the tail of the >> tiger. The tail of the tiger is still the tiger, but perhaps a more >> manageable one than to grab its head. >> >> Perhaps this is why Vygotskians just call themselves Vygotskians to align >> themselves with the source of the first theories rather than to later >> conceptions and other developments (i.e. Leontiev, etc). Just thinking out >> loud. >> >> Another argument is that if we want to be all inclusive, then we have to >> include tool-use, as it's not the social, the culture, and the history, but >> also the language and tools used. I realize some practitioners would say >> that language is no different than a tool, but I feel language is >> different, even though it may have a similar cognitive response in the mind >> as would using a tool. >> >> Activity suggests tool use, though not always. Consider dance, or >> storytelling, or going for a walk. >> >> How about: socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory??? >> >> Yes! I am writing this a little tongue in cheek. I hope you do not mind. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalsia >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of David Kellogg >> >> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:14 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> It's a very domain-specific umbrella, like those cane-brollies that go >> with a bowler. "Sociocultural" is strongly preferred used in second >> language acquisition, thanks to the influence of Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf >> and Matthew Poehner; I have never seen "cultural historical" used in this >> literature. But "cultural-historical" is similarly preferred in psychology >> and anthropology, thanks to the influence of J.V. Wertsch, Mike >> Cole, Martin Packer and Andy Blunden; that's really why we are having this >> discussion on what "socio-cultural" might mean on a list largely populated >> by roving psychologists and nomadic anthropologues. >> >> Interestingly, the Francophones prefer "historico-cultural", using the >> argument that you can understand the process without the product but not >> the product without the process. I stopped using "sociocultural" because I >> thought it was redundant, but now I am really not sure of this: it seems to >> me that the relationship is a similar one--you can study society as process >> without studying its cultural product (e.g. as demographics, economics, >> statistics) but you can't really study culture without some understanding >> of the process of its formation. >> >> There was a similar disagreement in systemic functional linguistics >> between Halliday and Jim Martin over the term "socio-semiotic". Martin said >> that it was redundant, because there couldn't be any semiotic without >> society. Halliday rather flippantly replied that ants had a society without >> a semiotics, and at the time it seemed to me that this was a non >> sequitur, first of all because ants don't really have a society in >> our sense (precisely because there is no such thing as an ant history >> separate from phylogenesis on the one hand and ontogenesis on the other) >> and secondly because ants most definitely do have a semiotics, albeit one >> based on chemistry and not perception as ours is. >> >> It seems to me, in retrospect, that the relationship between the semiotic >> and the social is much more like the relationship between the social and >> the biological, or even the biological and the chemical. The semiotic is a >> certain level of organization that the social has, but there are >> other levels, just as biology is a certain kind of chemical organization >> which does not exclude other, nonbiological ways organizing chemicals, >> and chemistry is a kind of physical organization which doesn't exclude >> sub-chemical organizations. >> >> Perhaps we can think of the relationship between culture and society in >> the same way? >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!WkcWw-Z3AI5QbHQG3kQk977PWXXDiVwBdpwxA8ArenUhjysOeMjqpavdBME_3DBvZsXwhQ$ >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * >> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WkcWw-Z3AI5QbHQG3kQk977PWXXDiVwBdpwxA8ArenUhjysOeMjqpavdBME_3DAVB3SXoQ$ >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David H Kirshner wrote: >> >> 4. As an umbrella term for any sociogenetic approach. >> >> Isn?t that its current usage? >> >> David >> >> >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *On Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar >> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >> >> >> >> Hi Andy, and VO's, >> >> >> >> What fascinates me is that the word "sociocultural" has a lot of >> different facets in terms of how the word was used in different contexts. >> It seems there are three I've been able to pick out. >> >> 1. as a derisive term in early Soviet history. >> 2. as an empowering term from Latin American voices. >> 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist "brand" at the height of the Cold >> War in the US. >> >> I'm not sure if I've done justice in the manner that I've represented >> that, but it is a well-intended attempt. Are there others? >> >> >> >> What I don't understand fully is whether there must be ONE explanation >> how the term came to be, or ONE definition of what it actually means. Can't >> it be polysemantic? polycontextual? >> >> >> >> If that is what's happening, then it makes sense that there would be an >> ongoing controversy about which one is the right definition or reason for >> not using it, depending on the interlocutor. >> >> >> >> If we are to talk about who used the term first, and that's where the >> value/authority holds, then all that tells us is that for those who value >> who used the term first. that's where the authority is. >> >> >> >> If we talk about the emotional attachment of the word as it is used in >> context and that's where the value/authority holds, then that tells us for >> those who value the most personal attachment to the word, that's where the >> authority is. >> >> >> >> If we talk about how the word was used functionally, where the >> value/authority holds in its efficacy, then all that tells is that for >> those who value whether the word works or not, that's where the authority >> is. >> >> >> >> I'm not sure one can put any of one these over the other two (or if there >> are more than that, if there are more). All we can say I suppose is whether >> in a particular context is the word "sociocultural" appropriate or not? >> >> >> >> I do find that this debate has begun to have its own life, this debate >> over the use of a word. I've begun doubt it will ever cease. >> >> >> >> One day the discussion will be how one used to debate about the term, >> first everyone was this way about the word, than they were that way about >> the word, and many large camps were formed in XXXX year to say why the word >> should not be used, but then X years later other large camps formed to say >> it is fine to use the word. I suppose it will only be when the debate >> ceases will it come to pass that the debate will be forgotten. But will >> that cessation solidify the use or non-use of the word? >> >> >> >> I understand the reasons for saying "cultural psychology." But for those >> swimming in a culture where behaviorism is considered the soul of >> psychology, adding "cultural" becomes a sad necessity. Even then, that >> necessity only depends upon how one sees culture, as either as an additive, >> an integral ingredient of psychology, or its basis. I believe I've read on >> the list that one should be able to say "psychology" and just *know* that >> it includes culture. I don't think we are there yet. >> >> >> >> Then that would be my argument to use "sociocultural" to understand it >> includes history. CHAT is sort of a defensive term (well, it is an >> acronym). But then... it leaves out "social" and is that OK? We certainly >> should not say sociocultural historical activity theory because that >> acronym is very unfulfilling. What is nice about CHAT though is that to >> chat is an activity of speech, and there is a implied meaning that also >> pertains to Vygotskian theories, and therefore meaningful. >> >> >> >> In a sense, it's not the meaning that we are arguing over, but how the >> limitations of our particular language fails to convey a meaning with such >> precision that it thereby to parses away any other inappropriate meaning. >> I'm just not sure that the project is one that can be achieved >> successfully, even if it succeeds for an interim. >> >> >> >> At the same time I can see why story of the elephant and the blind men >> also have a part to play in our understandings and assumptions. >> >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Andy Blunden >> *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM >> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >> >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> >> Annalisa, I have only been talking and writing about Vygotsky and co. >> since about 2000 and have been openly Marxist since the 1960s (indeed, >> Vygotsky is core to how I understand Marx) and never had any reason not to >> be. But it is true that when Mike first went to Moscow, it was at the >> height of the Cold War, and when he and others first brought Vygotsky's >> ideas to the USA, there was a lot of resistance to their Marxist content. I >> think the naming issue only arose as Vygotsky and the others began to build >> a real following. The issues with the choice of name change over the years, >> as you say. I prefer" CHAT," but sometimes I use "Cultural Psychology" and >> sometimes I use "Activity Theory" depending on the context. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> Andy, et al, >> >> >> >> I sort of came to this a little late in the thread, but I can offer that >> Vera John-Steiner didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian >> theory, but as I learn more about the word (thank you Mike), I can see how >> once a word is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard for the >> association to be broken. >> >> >> >> I think it's that way with words all the time coming and going out of >> favor, or meanings shifting, like the game of telephone, but across >> generations and cultures. >> >> >> >> Might I contribute to the discussion by asking whether the use of >> "sociocultural" was also a means of making the theories more available in >> the West (at least in the US). It seems there was redscare (you are welcome >> read the double entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as you like) >> prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the Marxist "brand" to >> access the actual theories on child development? In other words, to >> depoliticize the science? >> >> >> >> I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but as time passes, I can >> see its problems. >> >> >> >> For me, I had preferred the word because historical was always a given >> for me. In concern of the here and now, the real difficulty I had thought >> was understanding the social- how interactions between the child and the >> caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the -cultural, how the culture >> impacts thought, those things are more of the micro level, but also >> sociocultural, how the two also can interact and influence one another and >> that combined bears its own signature on the mind and its development. As >> far as History (capital H) that is sort of difficult to measure when we are >> talking about child development as there is very little history that a >> child has, unless we are talking about genetics, I suppose. >> >> >> >> Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect and am enriched by the >> discourse in which we now we find ourselves immersed about it so thanks to >> all for this. >> >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Andy Blunden >> >> *Sent:* Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM >> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!WkcWw-Z3AI5QbHQG3kQk977PWXXDiVwBdpwxA8ArenUhjysOeMjqpavdBME_3DBDTrLXgg$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200521/116abf0a/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu May 21 21:36:59 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 21:36:59 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning?/anonymity and social media In-Reply-To: <8E0E4B47-71D8-4161-9577-47073C7DD535@gmail.com> References: <8E0E4B47-71D8-4161-9577-47073C7DD535@gmail.com> Message-ID: If you google Haidt+Covid, a lot of specific papers etc come up Mike On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 7:46 PM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Greg, > In truth, I don?t think I can. It comes from Making Sense, a podcast run > by Sam Harris. I have a paid subscription. But it?s Jonathan Haidt who > argued against anonymity in public spaces on the internet: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Haidt__;!!Mih3wA!XoeXu4-2Xdr0CaWDzR2ghcWNxo6sGnZs0bhny8LdYPgBEEjPNmbajf6AhJlK3Bdv2TkPhA$ > > . > Henry > > > > On May 21, 2020, at 2:20 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > Henry, > Can you share the link for the Haidt interview? > Thanks, > Greg > > On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 1:13 PM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> David, >> Doesn?t Vygotsky make much the same case for learning and development >> that you do for evolution and devolution in society? Or is it that >> development requires an addittive process that is external to the child, >> followed by some kind of internalization that rearranges the structure of >> the child?s thinking. The hydrogen + oxygen ?> Water process. If we are >> lucky. Like in South Korea, where a herd immunity to Covid-19 is >> developing. SK + Covid-19?> Herd Immunity. This ?> like some kind of social >> perizhvanie. Biologically, Mr. Schmidt is the vector of social media, >> driven by financial gain and power, setting us up for more crisis. >> >> Back to physics and an analogy I heard the psychologist Jonathan Haidt >> say on a podcast today: Let?s say that the force of gravity suddenly >> doubled. That would do to our physical universe what the introduction of >> social media has done to our social universe. In that same podcast. Haidt >> said that the only thing that can save us from a complete meltdown is to >> make anonymous access to public spaces in social media impossible. I would >> be interested in responses to this. I think this is relevant to the subject >> line of on-line learning. >> >> Henry >> >> On May 20, 2020, at 5:16 PM, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> I don't think that photography really replaced painting, nor do I think >> that television ever replaced printing. In both cases, there was some >> encroachment and then an "involution" (a die-off) where functions >> overlapped. For example, we no longer pay for expensive family portraits, >> and the number of people who watch Downton Abbey is probably a lot greater >> than the number that read Anthony Trollope. But where functions did not >> redound (e.g. abstraction in painting and forensics in photography, >> advertising in television vs. psychological prose) there was enrichment and >> evolution. Crises only become pathological when involution fails to occur, >> and when the transitional forms thrown up at critical times become >> permanent ones. We cannot make salads from the cotyledons of our lettuce >> greens. >> >> I think that pathological tendency is exactly what Mr. Schmidt and his >> colleagues are pushing with their attempt to make on-line learning >> economically sustainable even when it is not educationally so. Rebecca >> Schuman recently pointed out that the expense of online learning to >> universities is greater than classroom learning (because it requires you to >> pay faculty AND tech support). So you can only turn a profit if you make it >> permanent (You have to do what Chairman Mao used to do in the old Peasant >> Studies Institute in revolutionary Guangzhou: "keep the blackboard and >> erase the students"). On-line learning in a way presents the OPPOSITE >> problem that photograhy presented to painting and television presented to >> printing. Photography is better at "unmediated" presentation than painting, >> and television rewards attention rather than concentration. Like >> photography and TV, face to face conversation is just a whole lot better at >> these. >> >> Much the same may be said about Mr. Schmidt's response to China and South >> Korea's response, which is explicitly and avowedly pro-individualism and >> implicitly and covertly pro-US imperialist. But whether or not Mr. Schmidt >> agrees to it, the Anglo-American approach of preventative-but-not-public >> medicine is going to involute, and very quickly too. One example will >> suffice. Yesterday KCDC released a report on the "reinfection" >> phenomenon--the fact that people who recover will test positive again in a >> few months. The Koreans found that this was due to deactivated virus >> particles which persist in the body but which are detected by oversensitive >> testing. This is REALLY big news--it essentially means that humans as a >> species will eventually survive Covid 19 in more or less the way we >> prevailed over the Black Death and small pox. But the study was done >> here in Korea, and it was publisihed only in Korean; the rest of the world >> had to read the abstract. >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!XoeXu4-2Xdr0CaWDzR2ghcWNxo6sGnZs0bhny8LdYPgBEEjPNmbajf6AhJlK3BdkXwdYqA$ >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XoeXu4-2Xdr0CaWDzR2ghcWNxo6sGnZs0bhny8LdYPgBEEjPNmbajf6AhJlK3BfcqB35ww$ >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 7:02 AM Annalisa Aguilar >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Mike, >>> >>> But then how is it that we even exist, having these conversations? If >>> this were all true? >>> >>> There is within each individual the freedom to choose, we are not all >>> automatons. >>> >>> I suppose what I mean to say is that if we say it's hopeless, then it >>> is. >>> >>> So then why even bother? >>> >>> Why not just give up the ghost (and resignedly accept our >>> bourgeois-reality as the medicine we are spoonfed)? Are we talking about >>> the borg? Is resistance futile? >>> >>> To hell with that (narrative)! >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of mike cole >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2020 3:34 PM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> Annalisa -- I believe that Tom's point is that such promising >>> innovations are almost always >>> possible on the fringes of educational practice, but that they are >>> inevitably domesticated or >>> stomped on by pre-existing regimes of power. >>> >>> That is what Adorno argued in the post-WWII. And many before and since. >>> mike >>> >>> On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 2:29 PM Annalisa Aguilar >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Tom, >>> >>> May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? >>> >>> Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We >>> looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, >>> once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always >>> a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed >>> by SL's prospects. >>> >>> In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, >>> I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that >>> students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one >>> another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological >>> fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would >>> ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. >>> >>> Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like >>> looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. >>> Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. >>> >>> What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of >>> place, which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot >>> of open space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but >>> it was perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. >>> >>> I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators >>> already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online >>> learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers >>> during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of >>> associations of place with learning. >>> >>> In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as >>> the AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, >>> drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in >>> order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye >>> coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing >>> abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and >>> constrain learning to books. >>> >>> We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We >>> must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. >>> >>> I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which >>> the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts >>> of learning. >>> >>> I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but >>> out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for >>> quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged >>> learning venues . Not with grade school. >>> >>> I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for >>> grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally >>> studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, >>> although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon >>> it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess >>> that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because >>> parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. >>> >>> I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, >>> nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. >>> >>> What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is >>> childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own >>> families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!XoeXu4-2Xdr0CaWDzR2ghcWNxo6sGnZs0bhny8LdYPgBEEjPNmbajf6AhJlK3BdGNgiFew$ >>> >>> >>> It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a >>> right, not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the >>> pandemic may also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom >>> education and why we must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. >>> >>> It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the >>> classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances >>> that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. >>> >>> Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by >>> the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that >>> he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and >>> that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. >>> People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, >>> etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it >>> the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of >>> learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. >>> >>> If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to >>> already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support >>> well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be >>> integrated with existing models. >>> >>> If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another >>> way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where >>> money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and >>> wasteful. >>> >>> One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online >>> learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may >>> also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or >>> riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and >>> surveillance is a constructive combination. >>> >>> There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more >>> appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet >>> words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must >>> better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite >>> behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown >>> interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from >>> what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. >>> >>> This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon >>> a mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and >>> introspection, I will never accept that reality. >>> >>> To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say >>> "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers >>> and pins." >>> >>> I just do not believe this narrative. >>> >>> We cannot give up. >>> >>> Is there a fight ahead? Yes. >>> >>> Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most >>> definitely, yes. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of Tom Richardson >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> >>> Hello Annalisa >>> Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost >>> none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of >>> human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour >>> acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. >>> >>> - What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment >>> created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the >>> widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such >>> learning takes place?'. >>> - What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes >>> for the *perezhivanie *of the learner, which shapes her social >>> being and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', >>> 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? >>> >>> Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't >>> yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp >>> what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. >>> I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is >>> within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. >>> >>> Kind regards >>> Tom >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>> Hello Tom, >>> >>> Thank you for posting the link. >>> >>> I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly >>> dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is >>> not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking >>> pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended >>> into our lives. >>> >>> I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It >>> reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and >>> resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has >>> become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. >>> >>> At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for >>> power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. >>> >>> Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill >>> Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as >>> the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment >>> facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include >>> Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding >>> flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his >>> billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). >>> >>> I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to >>> encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee >>> to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that >>> coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. >>> >>> Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general >>> problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling >>> perspective. >>> >>> She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of >>> COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to >>> control the world. >>> >>> Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness >>> of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. >>> Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is >>> the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to >>> deliberate the way forward. >>> >>> As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to >>> control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, >>> or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in >>> ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be >>> construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency >>> to decide how to use our tools. >>> >>> Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. >>> Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for >>> disabled children with his goals for flattening the classroom into >>> two-dimensional online learning screens. He will never be able to walk >>> around that law. >>> >>> So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply >>> does not hold water for me. >>> >>> I hope this might be a little encouraging. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of mike cole >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> Hello Tom Richardson >>> This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat >>> Project" that has just finished its >>> planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human >>> development, and theories of "Development >>> in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced >>> by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. >>> Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as >>> to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. >>> The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of >>> essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. >>> In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the >>> most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced >>> a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of >>> most members of this discussion over the years, >>> is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations >>> have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting >>> a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). >>> >>> We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social >>> science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp >>> speed and its invisible. >>> >>> Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about >>> for 100 years. >>> Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start >>> providing working models of effective practices that do NOT >>> assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. >>> >>> Thanks for asking. >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson < >>> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Greetings Xmca-ers >>> I would like to raise a question. >>> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major >>> questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, >>> democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international >>> competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan >>> approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to >>> these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been >>> happening recently: >>> >>> >>> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks >>> after that article appeared, he described >>> the >>> ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the >>> country had been forced to cobble together during this public health >>> emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. >>> >>> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do >>> kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better >>> remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? >>> will help kids learn better.? " >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!XoeXu4-2Xdr0CaWDzR2ghcWNxo6sGnZs0bhny8LdYPgBEEjPNmbajf6AhJlK3BfuavbI-A$ >>> >>> >>> >>> Just asking >>> Tom Richardson >>> Middlesbrough UK >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what >>> fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. >>> For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>> For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net >>> >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what >>> fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XoeXu4-2Xdr0CaWDzR2ghcWNxo6sGnZs0bhny8LdYPgBEEjPNmbajf6AhJlK3BcU5_IB8g$ >>> >>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>> >>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!XoeXu4-2Xdr0CaWDzR2ghcWNxo6sGnZs0bhny8LdYPgBEEjPNmbajf6AhJlK3BfRbO1j2w$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!XoeXu4-2Xdr0CaWDzR2ghcWNxo6sGnZs0bhny8LdYPgBEEjPNmbajf6AhJlK3BcUkuRGGQ$ > > > > -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XoeXu4-2Xdr0CaWDzR2ghcWNxo6sGnZs0bhny8LdYPgBEEjPNmbajf6AhJlK3BcU5_IB8g$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200521/b5384bca/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Thu May 21 22:10:26 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 15:10:26 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> <36147263-58ba-6908-ce60-bc367719772e@marxists.org> <71876107-fad8-3a23-2bd9-35d13d923268@marxists.org> <76d5fed9-4397-5cf6-aed4-d537df05af17@marxists.org> Message-ID: And it is worth noting that Hegel wrote this in the 1810s simply on the basis of logical criticism of Kant and Jacobi (a contemporary sharing some views with Descartes). And yet it took more than a century (if I'm not mistaken) to make its way into hard science. Here's how he explains it: ? 66 That said, we continue to stand by the position that immediate knowing is to be taken as a fact. With this, however, the consideration is directed towards the field of experience, to a psychological phenomenon. ? In this respect, it should be noted that it is one of the most common experiences that truths (which one knows very well to be the result of the most intricate and highly mediated considerations) present themselves immediately in the consciousness of someone conversant with such knowledge. Like everybody else who has been trained in a science, the mathematician immediately has at his fingertips solutions to which a very complicated analysis has led. Every educated person has immediately present in his or her knowing a host of universal viewpoints and principles that have resulted only from repeated reflection and long life experience. The facility we have achieved in any sphere of knowing, also in fine art, in technical dexterity, consists precisely in having those sorts of familiarity, those kinds of activity immediately present in one?s consciousness in the case at hand, indeed, even in an activity directed outwards and in one?s limbs. ? In all these cases the immediacy of knowing does not only not exclude its mediation; to the contrary, they are so connected that immediate knowing is even the product and result of knowing that has been mediated. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 22/05/2020 1:59 pm, mike cole wrote: > Both HAVE TO BE present at once, Andy or there is no > perception. > Mike > > On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 8:55 PM Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > Yes, last week in our Hegel Reading Group we read the > section in the? Shorter Logic, following his critiques > of Kant and Descartes, Hegel explains how thought is > both immediate /and/ mediated, and even over Zoom I > could see the clouds gradually receding from my young > students' eyes. All of a sudden the whole fruitless > argument between scepticism and dogmatism, relativism > and historicism, fell away. The most difficult thing > to grasp was how perception was not just immediate and > mediated, but both were essentially present in the > same moment, how without the cultural training of the > senses the brain could not make any sense at all of > the nervous stimulation of the organs of sight, etc. > > Andy > > PS. the exact quote from Hegel is: "there is nothing, > nothing in heaven, or in nature or in mind or anywhere > else which does not equally contain both immediacy and > mediation" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/hl/hlbegin.htm*0092__;Iw!!Mih3wA!V1lohvu0fySbbUkCcYcJRCbGDu-27I-V6eExTcBvLglpwRB4sUpmOZ-FCZ_JuZKJQBLHEA$ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 22/05/2020 9:20 am, mike cole wrote: >> This is a point I have struggled to make for many >> years, Andy. I didn't know I was quoting Hegel: >> >> Hegel: >> 'Everything is both immediate and mediated." >> >> The challenge is to rise to the concrete with this >> abstraction or its just la la la. >> >> mike >> >> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 6:42 PM Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >> >> Of course, Annalisa, I agree that Science is a >> moral practice, but that is not what is at issue >> here. >> >> >> Two issues concern me with what you have said: >> (1) the question of "who decides?" and (2) the >> quantification of development as in "more >> evolved" bringing with it the implication of >> moral value attached to development. >> >> >> (1) The discovery of the "social construction of >> reality" was an achievement of the Left, the >> progressives, with people like the Critical >> Psychologists, the theorists of postmodernism and >> post-structural feminists in the 1970s an 80s, >> who exposed how taken-for-granted facts along >> with the truths of Science were on closer >> inspection ideological products of dominant >> social groups. Of course, how reality is /seen >> /is an inseparable part of how reality /is/. This >> insight led to a range of powerful theoretical >> and practical critiques of all aspects of >> society. Feminists offered an alternative way of >> interpreting reality as a powerful lever for >> changing that reality by undermining patriarchal >> structures and certainties. So far so good. But >> today, in 2020, it is not progressives who are >> asking "who decides?" and calling into question >> the very idea of truth and fact: it is Donald >> Trump and Rudi Giuliani. Quite honestly, this >> outcome was always implicit in the postmodern and >> poststructuralist critique. Or, could I say: >> "Donald Trump is a more evolved form of Judith >> Butler" if I thought in those terms, which I don't. >> >> >> Hegel takes up this problem with the maxim: >> "Everything is both immediate and mediated." Yes, >> social interests dominant in a certain social >> domain by definition determine what is true in >> that domain (though remember, every social domain >> is finite and has its boundaries). But that is >> not just by saying something about >> an/independently existing/ reality which can be >> subject to any number of /alternative/ >> representations (as Kant would have it), but >> rather the dominant social interests /determine >> that reality itself/. They do that both >> /immediately /and /through the ideal >> representation/ of that reality which is *part of >> that reality*. You can't "decide" by a purely >> discursive moves - you have to /change /that >> reality. You do that with the weapons of both >> theoretical and practical critique. >> >> >> What this means is that you can study the >> documents (assuming you weren't personally >> present) of some past dispute and see with your >> own eyes how and why some people formulated new >> word meanings, and began to use these new word >> meaning(s) in their own communication, and >> thereby facilitated others from using this word >> meaning, and the relevant concepts, in their >> work, and so on. >> >> >> (2) As perhaps I have illustrated in my example >> above that there is no implication of "higher" in >> development. In my own education, it was Sylvia >> Scribner's "Uses of History" (1985) which >> explained this to me. "Higher" implies comparison >> and comparison in turn implies >> /interchangeability/. For example, if I was >> considering whether to emigrate to the US or >> France, I might consider public safety as a >> metric and decide that France was superior to the >> US and make my decision accordingly. Or, I might >> consider job availability for an English-speaking >> monoglot like me as the metric, and decide that >> the US was superior to France. But to decide that >> the US is superior to France or vice versa >> without the choice and the relevant metric is the >> moral judgment which neither you nor I find >> acceptable. They're just different. >> >> >> Understanding word meanings and concepts entails >> an analysis of *both *how the word is used in the >> field in question, and the history as to how it >> came to be so. Using the concept of "germ cell," >> I can work my way back and forth through an >> etymological field, forensically, like a >> detective, until I can connect the particular use >> of the word which emerged as a germ cell at some >> earlier time, in some situation where the >> implication of choosing that word meaning was >> abundantly clear to all, which allows me to see >> *why* someone felt the need (now forgotten) to >> introduce the word meaning and what it's absence >> would mean here and now, where it is already >> taken for granted. >> >> >> My apologies for the unacceptably long message, >> which is much against my own mores, but I don't >> know how to clarify these issues more succinctly. >> >> >> Andy >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 20/05/2020 3:51 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> Hi Andy, >>> >>> I suppose the issue about being on a branch of >>> evolution has more to do with who decides what >>> the branch is. Is it time? or is it topical? or >>> is it based upon the interlocutors? >>> >>> If we say one word usage is more "evolved" than >>> another, I suppose I am just pushing back on >>> that because who decides what is more evolved? >>> >>> Forgive me, but can we ever say that if >>> something is more "evolved" it is actually >>> better? What do we actually mean when we say >>> something is evolved? >>> >>> What if one term lasts over a longer arc of time >>> than another usage? It seems if we use the >>> evolution rubric, it would be considered more >>> "fit" than the one that is changing over the >>> same period of time. >>> >>> I do find it helpful that you to bring up the >>> germ cell and how that concept pertains to >>> analysis. That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm >>> glad to know that to assign the parentheses does >>> entail an ideological move, and that that can't >>> be escaped. As long as we know what the ideology >>> is, there is transparency in our analysis. >>> >>> I do think moral evaluations are worth including >>> on all discussions, not necessarily to forbid >>> discussions or scientific pursuits, but to use >>> as landmarks to keep our bearings. Scientific >>> concepts have a way of not being inclusive of >>> contexts (i.e., lived experiences) or being >>> grounded, right? >>> >>> Perhaps this is what made Vygotsky such a humane >>> and compassionate scientific thinker is that he >>> could understand how scientific concepts can be >>> abusive tools for oppression. Anchoring them in >>> lived experience shows their validity. Would >>> this be a fair statement to you, Andy? >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> >>> on >>> behalf of Andy Blunden >>> >>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:23 PM >>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> >>> >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural >>> psychology" ? >>> >>> *[EXTERNAL]* >>> >>> ** >>> >>> Annalisa, "where does history start"? >>> Effectively there is no starting point, and the >>> choosing of a starting point is always an >>> ideological move. Foucault does this to great >>> effect. Ilyenkov deals with this in his book >>> "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's Capital" >>> and explains the need for what he calls the >>> "logical-historical method." To short circuit >>> the complexities of reading Ilyenkov, in CHAT we >>> rely on the identification of the unit of >>> analysis or "germ cell" to anchor our historical >>> investigation. >>> >>> >>> "Sociogenesis" is just Latin for "social >>> development," the word I used. But if you are >>> going to ascribe a moral value to "evolution" >>> and then reject the concept on that basis, you'd >>> better also reject "development" and all the >>> "geneses" and evolution of species by natural >>> selection and all modern biology while you are >>> at it. Alternatively, you could choose *not* to >>> ascribe moral values to scientific concepts, >>> then the whole of science is open to you. >>> >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> On 18/05/2020 3:25 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>>> Hi Andy (& VO's), >>>> >>>> I think that that was my point, that we cannot >>>> capture everything in the word to describe the >>>> theory. And that is because of the limit of our >>>> language. >>>> >>>> Even where genesis actually is, where something >>>> starts can be difficult to pinpoint. I mean >>>> where does History actually start? >>>> >>>> These words that you mention phylogenesis, >>>> ethnogenesis, ontogenesis, are words that are >>>> like brackets of a pair of parentheses. Who >>>> decides where to put them? (And why not >>>> sociogenesis?) >>>> >>>> I'm not sure it's correct to say the choice of >>>> a word locates the user on a branch of a >>>> cultural evolutionary tree, because then that >>>> starts to mean that one speaker is more evolved >>>> than another based on the use of a word. >>>> >>>> It might be better to say that the choice of a >>>> word locates the user to a particular context. >>>> I could live with that. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> on >>>> behalf of Andy Blunden >>>> >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:27 PM >>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural >>>> psychology" ? >>>> >>>> *[EXTERNAL]* >>>> >>>> You're never going to succeed in formally >>>> capturing the full scope of the theory in a >>>> word, Annalisa. >>>> "socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity >>>> theory" still leave out biology and Darwin, >>>> which is a part of our theory, too. >>>> >>>> >>>> It is sometimes said that human development is >>>> the coincidence of *four* processes: >>>> *phylogenesis *(i.e., evolution of the >>>> species), cultural development (*ethnogenesis*, >>>> the development of technology *and *language), >>>> *social development* (one and the same culture >>>> has different classes and political groups side >>>> by side) and *ontogenesis *(even twins can grow >>>> up very differently according to the >>>> experiences (/perezhivaniya/) they go through). >>>> I tried to describe this in: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/ontogenesis.htm__;!!Mih3wA!V1lohvu0fySbbUkCcYcJRCbGDu-27I-V6eExTcBvLglpwRB4sUpmOZ-FCZ_JuZITochLUA$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But if you look into the history of a word what >>>> you will inevitably find is that at some point >>>> (in time and social space) there was some >>>> dispute, and this dispute was either (1) >>>> resolved by both parties agreeing and marking >>>> this agreement by the coining of a new word >>>> meaning or the dropping of a word meaning >>>> altogether, or (2) there is a split and one or >>>> both sides of the split adopt a word meaning >>>> which distinguishes them from the other side >>>> (structuralism's favourite trope) or variations >>>> on the above scenarios. >>>> >>>> >>>> So the choice of a word tends to locate the >>>> user on a branch in the cultural evolutionary tree. >>>> >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> On 17/05/2020 11:56 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>>>> David K & VO's >>>>> >>>>> What pray-tell is an anthropologue? >>>>> >>>>> I am divided (pun intended) about saying that >>>>> sociocultural = social + culture, when they >>>>> are intertwined holistically. To me, >>>>> sociocultural points to a space in between, or >>>>> perhaps better said to a context of >>>>> interactions between individuals (who form a >>>>> society) that are easily accepted among them >>>>> and practiced over time. >>>>> >>>>> We can conceptually parse out the social and >>>>> the cultural, but don't we do that because of >>>>> the words and not because of the ostensible >>>>> reality going on interactionally? Can we >>>>> always understand something by dissecting it >>>>> into parts? >>>>> >>>>> Again, this seems to be the limit of language, >>>>> not of the conceptual context or content. >>>>> >>>>> In a sense to use the term "sociocultural" is >>>>> to grab the tail of the tiger. The tail of the >>>>> tiger is still the tiger, but perhaps a more >>>>> manageable one than to grab its head. >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps this is why Vygotskians just call >>>>> themselves Vygotskians to align themselves >>>>> with the source of the first theories rather >>>>> than to later conceptions and other >>>>> developments (i.e. Leontiev, etc). Just >>>>> thinking out loud. >>>>> >>>>> Another argument is that if we want to be all >>>>> inclusive, then we have to include tool-use, >>>>> as it's not the social, the culture, and the >>>>> history, but also the language and tools used. >>>>> I realize some practitioners would say that >>>>> language is no different than a tool, but I >>>>> feel language is different, even though it may >>>>> have a similar cognitive response in the mind >>>>> as would using a tool. >>>>> >>>>> Activity suggests tool use, though not always. >>>>> Consider dance, or storytelling, or going for >>>>> a walk. >>>>> >>>>> How about: >>>>> socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity >>>>> theory??? >>>>> >>>>> Yes! I am writing this a little tongue in >>>>> cheek. I hope you do not mind. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Annalsia >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> on >>>>> behalf of David Kellogg >>>>> >>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:14 PM >>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural >>>>> psychology" ? >>>>> >>>>> *? [EXTERNAL]* >>>>> >>>>> It's a very domain-specific umbrella, like >>>>> those cane-brollies that go with a bowler. >>>>> "Sociocultural" is strongly preferred used in >>>>> second language acquisition, thanks to the >>>>> influence of Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf and >>>>> Matthew Poehner; I have never seen "cultural >>>>> historical" used in this literature. But >>>>> "cultural-historical" is similarly preferred >>>>> in psychology and anthropology, thanks to the >>>>> influence of J.V. Wertsch, Mike Cole,?Martin >>>>> Packer and Andy Blunden;?that's really why we >>>>> are having this discussion on what >>>>> "socio-cultural" might mean on a list largely >>>>> populated by roving?psychologists and nomadic >>>>> anthropologues. >>>>> >>>>> Interestingly, the Francophones prefer >>>>> "historico-cultural", using the argument that >>>>> you can understand the process without the >>>>> product but not the product without the >>>>> process. I stopped using "sociocultural" >>>>> because I thought it was redundant, but now I >>>>> am really not sure of this: it seems to me >>>>> that the relationship is a similar one--you >>>>> can study society as process without studying >>>>> its cultural product (e.g. as demographics, >>>>> economics, statistics) but you can't really >>>>> study culture without some understanding of >>>>> the process of its formation. >>>>> >>>>> There was a similar disagreement in systemic >>>>> functional linguistics between Halliday and >>>>> Jim Martin over the term "socio-semiotic". >>>>> Martin said that it was redundant, because >>>>> there couldn't be any semiotic without >>>>> society.?Halliday rather flippantly replied >>>>> that ants had a society without a semiotics, >>>>> and at the time it seemed to me that?this was >>>>> a?non sequitur,?first of all because ants >>>>> don't really have a society in our?sense >>>>> (precisely because there is no such thing as >>>>> an ant history separate from phylogenesis on >>>>> the one hand and ontogenesis on the other) and >>>>> secondly because ants most definitely do have >>>>> a semiotics, albeit one based on chemistry and >>>>> not perception as ours is. >>>>> >>>>> It seems to me, in retrospect, that the >>>>> relationship between the semiotic and the >>>>> social is much more like the relationship >>>>> between the social and the biological, or even >>>>> the biological and the chemical. The semiotic >>>>> is a certain level of organization that the >>>>> social has, but there are other?levels, just >>>>> as biology is a certain kind of chemical >>>>> organization which does not exclude other, >>>>> nonbiological ways organizing chemicals, >>>>> and?chemistry is a kind of physical >>>>> organization which doesn't exclude >>>>> sub-chemical organizations. >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps we can think of the relationship >>>>> between culture and society in the same way? >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>> >>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A >>>>> manual and a manifesto. >>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!V1lohvu0fySbbUkCcYcJRCbGDu-27I-V6eExTcBvLglpwRB4sUpmOZ-FCZ_JuZIgegl6Jg$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >>>>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: >>>>> Foundations of Pedology/" >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!V1lohvu0fySbbUkCcYcJRCbGDu-27I-V6eExTcBvLglpwRB4sUpmOZ-FCZ_JuZIjILgXzQ$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David H >>>>> Kirshner >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> 4. As an umbrella term for any >>>>> sociogenetic approach. >>>>> >>>>> Isn?t that its current usage? >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> *On Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar >>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM >>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural >>>>> psychology" ? >>>>> >>>>> Hi Andy, and VO's, >>>>> >>>>> What fascinates me is that the word >>>>> "sociocultural" has a lot of different >>>>> facets in terms of how the word was used >>>>> in different contexts. It seems there are >>>>> three I've been able to pick out. >>>>> >>>>> 1. as a derisive term in early Soviet >>>>> history. >>>>> 2. as an empowering term from Latin >>>>> American voices. >>>>> 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist >>>>> "brand" at the height of the Cold War >>>>> in the US. >>>>> >>>>> I'm not sure if I've done justice in the >>>>> manner that I've represented that, but it >>>>> is a well-intended attempt. Are there others? >>>>> >>>>> What I don't understand fully is whether >>>>> there must be ONE explanation how the term >>>>> came to be, or ONE definition of what it >>>>> actually means. Can't it be polysemantic? >>>>> polycontextual? >>>>> >>>>> If that is what's happening, then it makes >>>>> sense that there would be an ongoing >>>>> controversy about which one is the right >>>>> definition or reason for not using it, >>>>> depending on the interlocutor. >>>>> >>>>> If we are to talk about who used the term >>>>> first, and that's where the >>>>> value/authority holds, then all that tells >>>>> us is that for those who value who used >>>>> the term first. that's where the authority >>>>> is. >>>>> >>>>> If we talk about the emotional attachment >>>>> of the word as it is used in context and >>>>> that's where the value/authority holds, >>>>> then that tells us for those who value the >>>>> most personal attachment to the word, >>>>> that's where the authority is. >>>>> >>>>> If we talk about how the word was used >>>>> functionally, where the value/authority >>>>> holds in its efficacy, then all that tells >>>>> is that for those who value whether the >>>>> word works or not, that's where the >>>>> authority is. >>>>> >>>>> I'm not sure one can put any of one these >>>>> over the other two (or if there are more >>>>> than that, if there are more). All we can >>>>> say I suppose is whether in a particular >>>>> context is the word "sociocultural" >>>>> appropriate or not? >>>>> >>>>> I do find that this debate has begun to >>>>> have its own life, this debate over the >>>>> use of a word. I've begun doubt it will >>>>> ever cease. >>>>> >>>>> One day the discussion will be how one >>>>> used to debate about the term, first >>>>> everyone was this way about the word, than >>>>> they were that way about the word, and >>>>> many large camps were formed in XXXX year >>>>> to say why the word should not be used, >>>>> but then X years later other large camps >>>>> formed to say it is fine to use the word. >>>>> I suppose it will only be when the debate >>>>> ceases will it come to pass that the >>>>> debate will be forgotten. But will that >>>>> cessation solidify the use or non-use of >>>>> the word? >>>>> >>>>> I understand the reasons for saying >>>>> "cultural psychology." But for those >>>>> swimming in a culture where behaviorism is >>>>> considered the soul of psychology, adding >>>>> "cultural" becomes a sad necessity.? Even >>>>> then, that necessity only depends upon how >>>>> one sees culture, as either as an >>>>> additive, an integral ingredient of >>>>> psychology, or its basis. I believe I've >>>>> read on the list that one should be able >>>>> to say "psychology" and just *know* that >>>>> it includes culture. I don't think we are >>>>> there yet. >>>>> >>>>> Then that would be my argument to use >>>>> "sociocultural" to understand it includes >>>>> history. CHAT is sort of a defensive term >>>>> (well, it is an acronym). But then... it >>>>> leaves out "social" and is that OK? We >>>>> certainly should not say sociocultural >>>>> historical activity theory because that >>>>> acronym is very unfulfilling. What is nice >>>>> about CHAT though is that to chat is an >>>>> activity of speech, and there is a implied >>>>> meaning that also pertains to Vygotskian >>>>> theories, and therefore meaningful. >>>>> >>>>> In a sense, it's not the meaning that we >>>>> are arguing over, but how the limitations >>>>> of our particular language fails to convey >>>>> a meaning with such precision that it >>>>> thereby to parses away any other >>>>> inappropriate meaning. I'm just not sure >>>>> that the project is one that can be >>>>> achieved successfully, even if it succeeds >>>>> for an interim. >>>>> >>>>> At the same time I can see why story of >>>>> the elephant and the blind men also have a >>>>> part to play in our understandings and >>>>> assumptions. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> on behalf of Andy Blunden >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM >>>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural >>>>> psychology" ? >>>>> >>>>> *[EXTERNAL]* >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa, I have only been talking and >>>>> writing about Vygotsky and co. since about >>>>> 2000 and have been openly Marxist since >>>>> the 1960s (indeed, Vygotsky is core to how >>>>> I understand Marx) and never had any >>>>> reason not to be. But it is true that when >>>>> Mike first went to Moscow, it was at the >>>>> height of the Cold War, and when he and >>>>> others first brought Vygotsky's ideas to >>>>> the USA, there was a lot of resistance to >>>>> their Marxist content. I think the naming >>>>> issue only arose as Vygotsky and the >>>>> others began to build a real following. >>>>> The issues with the choice of name change >>>>> over the years, as you say. I prefer" >>>>> CHAT," but sometimes I use "Cultural >>>>> Psychology" and sometimes I use "Activity >>>>> Theory" depending on the context. >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> >>>>> Home Page >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Andy, et al, >>>>> >>>>> I sort of came to this a little late >>>>> in the thread, but I can offer that >>>>> Vera John-Steiner didn't mind >>>>> "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian >>>>> theory, but as I learn more about the >>>>> word (thank you Mike), I can see how >>>>> once a word is utilized with intent of >>>>> derision, it's hard for the >>>>> association to be broken. >>>>> >>>>> I think it's that way with words all >>>>> the time coming and going out of >>>>> favor, or meanings shifting, like the >>>>> game of telephone, but across >>>>> generations and cultures. >>>>> >>>>> Might I contribute to the discussion >>>>> by asking whether the use of >>>>> "sociocultural" was also a means of >>>>> making the theories more available in >>>>> the West (at least in the US). It >>>>> seems there was redscare (you are >>>>> welcome read the double entendre: "red >>>>> scare" or "reds care", as you like) >>>>> prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful >>>>> to remove the Marxist "brand" to >>>>> access the actual theories on child >>>>> development? In other words, to >>>>> depoliticize the science? >>>>> >>>>> I had been a proponent of the use of >>>>> the word, but as time passes, I can >>>>> see its problems. >>>>> >>>>> For me, I had preferred the word >>>>> because historical was always a given >>>>> for me. In concern of the here and >>>>> now, the real difficulty I had thought >>>>> was understanding the social- how >>>>> interactions between the child and the >>>>> caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer >>>>> and the -cultural, how the culture >>>>> impacts thought, those things are more >>>>> of the micro level, but also >>>>> sociocultural, how the two also can >>>>> interact and influence one another and >>>>> that combined bears its own signature >>>>> on the mind and its development. As >>>>> far as History (capital H) that is >>>>> sort of difficult to measure when we >>>>> are talking about child development as >>>>> there is very little history that a >>>>> child has, unless we are talking about >>>>> genetics, I suppose. >>>>> >>>>> Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the >>>>> term. I respect and am enriched by the >>>>> discourse in which we now we find >>>>> ourselves immersed about it so thanks >>>>> to all for this. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> on behalf of Andy Blunden >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM >>>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>> > -- > > > "How does newness come into the world?? How is it born? > Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" > Salman Rushdie > > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!V1lohvu0fySbbUkCcYcJRCbGDu-27I-V6eExTcBvLglpwRB4sUpmOZ-FCZ_JuZKB-9K-Tw$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu > . > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200522/a196a713/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Thu May 21 22:20:51 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 15:20:51 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> <36147263-58ba-6908-ce60-bc367719772e@marxists.org> <71876107-fad8-3a23-2bd9-35d13d923268@marxists.org> <76d5fed9-4397-5cf6-aed4-d537df05af17@marxists.org> Message-ID: <77a2c722-3c49-e71f-fa6d-f114f2a8c253@marxists.org> Just by the by, to connect two threads. ... With the arrival of COVID and distancing, we switched the Hegel Reading group to Zoom, and all the participants agree that it is an improvement over the face-to-face readings. Also we have iimproved consistency of attendance. And with the sessions recorded no-one misses out, and people use the recording to revise content even if they were present live. The recording and being able to attend without leaving home are the major attractions. There are 8 attendees, aged from mid-20s to mid-70s. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 22/05/2020 1:59 pm, mike cole wrote: > Both HAVE TO BE present at once, Andy or there is no > perception. > Mike > > On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 8:55 PM Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > Yes, last week in our Hegel Reading Group we read the > section in the? Shorter Logic, following his critiques > of Kant and Descartes, Hegel explains how thought is > both immediate /and/ immediate, and even over Zoom I > could see the clouds gradually receding from my young > students' eyes. All of a sudden the whole fruitless > argument between scepticism and dogmatism, relativism > and historicism, fell away. The most difficult thing > to grasp was how perception was not just immediate and > mediated, but both were essentially present in the > same moment, how without the cultural training of the > senses the brain could not make any sense at all of > the nervous stimulation of the organs of sight, etc. > > Andy > > PS. the exact quote from Hegel is: "there is nothing, > nothing in heaven, or in nature or in mind or anywhere > else which does not equally contain both immediacy and > mediation" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/hl/hlbegin.htm*0092__;Iw!!Mih3wA!SWzHKiQk5LBYJC_akHrj7JMBAvRE5X5M0hn6ydUkXYu1y5Jy6AY0YdRStq3T2rKkHBzrgQ$ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 22/05/2020 9:20 am, mike cole wrote: >> This is a point I have struggled to make for many >> years, Andy. I didn't know I was quoting Hegel: >> >> Hegel: >> 'Everything is both immediate and mediated." >> >> The challenge is to rise to the concrete with this >> abstraction or its just la la la. >> >> mike >> >> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 6:42 PM Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >> >> Of course, Annalisa, I agree that Science is a >> moral practice, but that is not what is at issue >> here. >> >> >> Two issues concern me with what you have said: >> (1) the question of "who decides?" and (2) the >> quantification of development as in "more >> evolved" bringing with it the implication of >> moral value attached to development. >> >> >> (1) The discovery of the "social construction of >> reality" was an achievement of the Left, the >> progressives, with people like the Critical >> Psychologists, the theorists of postmodernism and >> post-structural feminists in the 1970s an 80s, >> who exposed how taken-for-granted facts along >> with the truths of Science were on closer >> inspection ideological products of dominant >> social groups. Of course, how reality is /seen >> /is an inseparable part of how reality /is/. This >> insight led to a range of powerful theoretical >> and practical critiques of all aspects of >> society. Feminists offered an alternative way of >> interpreting reality as a powerful lever for >> changing that reality by undermining patriarchal >> structures and certainties. So far so good. But >> today, in 2020, it is not progressives who are >> asking "who decides?" and calling into question >> the very idea of truth and fact: it is Donald >> Trump and Rudi Giuliani. Quite honestly, this >> outcome was always implicit in the postmodern and >> poststructuralist critique. Or, could I say: >> "Donald Trump is a more evolved form of Judith >> Butler" if I thought in those terms, which I don't. >> >> >> Hegel takes up this problem with the maxim: >> "Everything is both immediate and mediated." Yes, >> social interests dominant in a certain social >> domain by definition determine what is true in >> that domain (though remember, every social domain >> is finite and has its boundaries). But that is >> not just by saying something about >> an/independently existing/ reality which can be >> subject to any number of /alternative/ >> representations (as Kant would have it), but >> rather the dominant social interests /determine >> that reality itself/. They do that both >> /immediately /and /through the ideal >> representation/ of that reality which is *part of >> that reality*. You can't "decide" by a purely >> discursive moves - you have to /change /that >> reality. You do that with the weapons of both >> theoretical and practical critique. >> >> >> What this means is that you can study the >> documents (assuming you weren't personally >> present) of some past dispute and see with your >> own eyes how and why some people formulated new >> word meanings, and began to use these new word >> meaning(s) in their own communication, and >> thereby facilitated others from using this word >> meaning, and the relevant concepts, in their >> work, and so on. >> >> >> (2) As perhaps I have illustrated in my example >> above that there is no implication of "higher" in >> development. In my own education, it was Sylvia >> Scribner's "Uses of History" (1985) which >> explained this to me. "Higher" implies comparison >> and comparison in turn implies >> /interchangeability/. For example, if I was >> considering whether to emigrate to the US or >> France, I might consider public safety as a >> metric and decide that France was superior to the >> US and make my decision accordingly. Or, I might >> consider job availability for an English-speaking >> monoglot like me as the metric, and decide that >> the US was superior to France. But to decide that >> the US is superior to France or vice versa >> without the choice and the relevant metric is the >> moral judgment which neither you nor I find >> acceptable. They're just different. >> >> >> Understanding word meanings and concepts entails >> an analysis of *both *how the word is used in the >> field in question, and the history as to how it >> came to be so. Using the concept of "germ cell," >> I can work my way back and forth through an >> etymological field, forensically, like a >> detective, until I can connect the particular use >> of the word which emerged as a germ cell at some >> earlier time, in some situation where the >> implication of choosing that word meaning was >> abundantly clear to all, which allows me to see >> *why* someone felt the need (now forgotten) to >> introduce the word meaning and what it's absence >> would mean here and now, where it is already >> taken for granted. >> >> >> My apologies for the unacceptably long message, >> which is much against my own mores, but I don't >> know how to clarify these issues more succinctly. >> >> >> Andy >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 20/05/2020 3:51 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> Hi Andy, >>> >>> I suppose the issue about being on a branch of >>> evolution has more to do with who decides what >>> the branch is. Is it time? or is it topical? or >>> is it based upon the interlocutors? >>> >>> If we say one word usage is more "evolved" than >>> another, I suppose I am just pushing back on >>> that because who decides what is more evolved? >>> >>> Forgive me, but can we ever say that if >>> something is more "evolved" it is actually >>> better? What do we actually mean when we say >>> something is evolved? >>> >>> What if one term lasts over a longer arc of time >>> than another usage? It seems if we use the >>> evolution rubric, it would be considered more >>> "fit" than the one that is changing over the >>> same period of time. >>> >>> I do find it helpful that you to bring up the >>> germ cell and how that concept pertains to >>> analysis. That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm >>> glad to know that to assign the parentheses does >>> entail an ideological move, and that that can't >>> be escaped. As long as we know what the ideology >>> is, there is transparency in our analysis. >>> >>> I do think moral evaluations are worth including >>> on all discussions, not necessarily to forbid >>> discussions or scientific pursuits, but to use >>> as landmarks to keep our bearings. Scientific >>> concepts have a way of not being inclusive of >>> contexts (i.e., lived experiences) or being >>> grounded, right? >>> >>> Perhaps this is what made Vygotsky such a humane >>> and compassionate scientific thinker is that he >>> could understand how scientific concepts can be >>> abusive tools for oppression. Anchoring them in >>> lived experience shows their validity. Would >>> this be a fair statement to you, Andy? >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> >>> on >>> behalf of Andy Blunden >>> >>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:23 PM >>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> >>> >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural >>> psychology" ? >>> >>> *[EXTERNAL]* >>> >>> ** >>> >>> Annalisa, "where does history start"? >>> Effectively there is no starting point, and the >>> choosing of a starting point is always an >>> ideological move. Foucault does this to great >>> effect. Ilyenkov deals with this in his book >>> "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's Capital" >>> and explains the need for what he calls the >>> "logical-historical method." To short circuit >>> the complexities of reading Ilyenkov, in CHAT we >>> rely on the identification of the unit of >>> analysis or "germ cell" to anchor our historical >>> investigation. >>> >>> >>> "Sociogenesis" is just Latin for "social >>> development," the word I used. But if you are >>> going to ascribe a moral value to "evolution" >>> and then reject the concept on that basis, you'd >>> better also reject "development" and all the >>> "geneses" and evolution of species by natural >>> selection and all modern biology while you are >>> at it. Alternatively, you could choose *not* to >>> ascribe moral values to scientific concepts, >>> then the whole of science is open to you. >>> >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> On 18/05/2020 3:25 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>>> Hi Andy (& VO's), >>>> >>>> I think that that was my point, that we cannot >>>> capture everything in the word to describe the >>>> theory. And that is because of the limit of our >>>> language. >>>> >>>> Even where genesis actually is, where something >>>> starts can be difficult to pinpoint. I mean >>>> where does History actually start? >>>> >>>> These words that you mention phylogenesis, >>>> ethnogenesis, ontogenesis, are words that are >>>> like brackets of a pair of parentheses. Who >>>> decides where to put them? (And why not >>>> sociogenesis?) >>>> >>>> I'm not sure it's correct to say the choice of >>>> a word locates the user on a branch of a >>>> cultural evolutionary tree, because then that >>>> starts to mean that one speaker is more evolved >>>> than another based on the use of a word. >>>> >>>> It might be better to say that the choice of a >>>> word locates the user to a particular context. >>>> I could live with that. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> on >>>> behalf of Andy Blunden >>>> >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:27 PM >>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural >>>> psychology" ? >>>> >>>> *[EXTERNAL]* >>>> >>>> You're never going to succeed in formally >>>> capturing the full scope of the theory in a >>>> word, Annalisa. >>>> "socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity >>>> theory" still leave out biology and Darwin, >>>> which is a part of our theory, too. >>>> >>>> >>>> It is sometimes said that human development is >>>> the coincidence of *four* processes: >>>> *phylogenesis *(i.e., evolution of the >>>> species), cultural development (*ethnogenesis*, >>>> the development of technology *and *language), >>>> *social development* (one and the same culture >>>> has different classes and political groups side >>>> by side) and *ontogenesis *(even twins can grow >>>> up very differently according to the >>>> experiences (/perezhivaniya/) they go through). >>>> I tried to describe this in: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/ontogenesis.htm__;!!Mih3wA!SWzHKiQk5LBYJC_akHrj7JMBAvRE5X5M0hn6ydUkXYu1y5Jy6AY0YdRStq3T2rIVT9bXsQ$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But if you look into the history of a word what >>>> you will inevitably find is that at some point >>>> (in time and social space) there was some >>>> dispute, and this dispute was either (1) >>>> resolved by both parties agreeing and marking >>>> this agreement by the coining of a new word >>>> meaning or the dropping of a word meaning >>>> altogether, or (2) there is a split and one or >>>> both sides of the split adopt a word meaning >>>> which distinguishes them from the other side >>>> (structuralism's favourite trope) or variations >>>> on the above scenarios. >>>> >>>> >>>> So the choice of a word tends to locate the >>>> user on a branch in the cultural evolutionary tree. >>>> >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> On 17/05/2020 11:56 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>>>> David K & VO's >>>>> >>>>> What pray-tell is an anthropologue? >>>>> >>>>> I am divided (pun intended) about saying that >>>>> sociocultural = social + culture, when they >>>>> are intertwined holistically. To me, >>>>> sociocultural points to a space in between, or >>>>> perhaps better said to a context of >>>>> interactions between individuals (who form a >>>>> society) that are easily accepted among them >>>>> and practiced over time. >>>>> >>>>> We can conceptually parse out the social and >>>>> the cultural, but don't we do that because of >>>>> the words and not because of the ostensible >>>>> reality going on interactionally? Can we >>>>> always understand something by dissecting it >>>>> into parts? >>>>> >>>>> Again, this seems to be the limit of language, >>>>> not of the conceptual context or content. >>>>> >>>>> In a sense to use the term "sociocultural" is >>>>> to grab the tail of the tiger. The tail of the >>>>> tiger is still the tiger, but perhaps a more >>>>> manageable one than to grab its head. >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps this is why Vygotskians just call >>>>> themselves Vygotskians to align themselves >>>>> with the source of the first theories rather >>>>> than to later conceptions and other >>>>> developments (i.e. Leontiev, etc). Just >>>>> thinking out loud. >>>>> >>>>> Another argument is that if we want to be all >>>>> inclusive, then we have to include tool-use, >>>>> as it's not the social, the culture, and the >>>>> history, but also the language and tools used. >>>>> I realize some practitioners would say that >>>>> language is no different than a tool, but I >>>>> feel language is different, even though it may >>>>> have a similar cognitive response in the mind >>>>> as would using a tool. >>>>> >>>>> Activity suggests tool use, though not always. >>>>> Consider dance, or storytelling, or going for >>>>> a walk. >>>>> >>>>> How about: >>>>> socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity >>>>> theory??? >>>>> >>>>> Yes! I am writing this a little tongue in >>>>> cheek. I hope you do not mind. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Annalsia >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> on >>>>> behalf of David Kellogg >>>>> >>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:14 PM >>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural >>>>> psychology" ? >>>>> >>>>> *? [EXTERNAL]* >>>>> >>>>> It's a very domain-specific umbrella, like >>>>> those cane-brollies that go with a bowler. >>>>> "Sociocultural" is strongly preferred used in >>>>> second language acquisition, thanks to the >>>>> influence of Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf and >>>>> Matthew Poehner; I have never seen "cultural >>>>> historical" used in this literature. But >>>>> "cultural-historical" is similarly preferred >>>>> in psychology and anthropology, thanks to the >>>>> influence of J.V. Wertsch, Mike Cole,?Martin >>>>> Packer and Andy Blunden;?that's really why we >>>>> are having this discussion on what >>>>> "socio-cultural" might mean on a list largely >>>>> populated by roving?psychologists and nomadic >>>>> anthropologues. >>>>> >>>>> Interestingly, the Francophones prefer >>>>> "historico-cultural", using the argument that >>>>> you can understand the process without the >>>>> product but not the product without the >>>>> process. I stopped using "sociocultural" >>>>> because I thought it was redundant, but now I >>>>> am really not sure of this: it seems to me >>>>> that the relationship is a similar one--you >>>>> can study society as process without studying >>>>> its cultural product (e.g. as demographics, >>>>> economics, statistics) but you can't really >>>>> study culture without some understanding of >>>>> the process of its formation. >>>>> >>>>> There was a similar disagreement in systemic >>>>> functional linguistics between Halliday and >>>>> Jim Martin over the term "socio-semiotic". >>>>> Martin said that it was redundant, because >>>>> there couldn't be any semiotic without >>>>> society.?Halliday rather flippantly replied >>>>> that ants had a society without a semiotics, >>>>> and at the time it seemed to me that?this was >>>>> a?non sequitur,?first of all because ants >>>>> don't really have a society in our?sense >>>>> (precisely because there is no such thing as >>>>> an ant history separate from phylogenesis on >>>>> the one hand and ontogenesis on the other) and >>>>> secondly because ants most definitely do have >>>>> a semiotics, albeit one based on chemistry and >>>>> not perception as ours is. >>>>> >>>>> It seems to me, in retrospect, that the >>>>> relationship between the semiotic and the >>>>> social is much more like the relationship >>>>> between the social and the biological, or even >>>>> the biological and the chemical. The semiotic >>>>> is a certain level of organization that the >>>>> social has, but there are other?levels, just >>>>> as biology is a certain kind of chemical >>>>> organization which does not exclude other, >>>>> nonbiological ways organizing chemicals, >>>>> and?chemistry is a kind of physical >>>>> organization which doesn't exclude >>>>> sub-chemical organizations. >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps we can think of the relationship >>>>> between culture and society in the same way? >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>> >>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A >>>>> manual and a manifesto. >>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!SWzHKiQk5LBYJC_akHrj7JMBAvRE5X5M0hn6ydUkXYu1y5Jy6AY0YdRStq3T2rKRse1JpA$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >>>>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: >>>>> Foundations of Pedology/" >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SWzHKiQk5LBYJC_akHrj7JMBAvRE5X5M0hn6ydUkXYu1y5Jy6AY0YdRStq3T2rLHuoNRww$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David H >>>>> Kirshner >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> 4. As an umbrella term for any >>>>> sociogenetic approach. >>>>> >>>>> Isn?t that its current usage? >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> *On Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar >>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM >>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural >>>>> psychology" ? >>>>> >>>>> Hi Andy, and VO's, >>>>> >>>>> What fascinates me is that the word >>>>> "sociocultural" has a lot of different >>>>> facets in terms of how the word was used >>>>> in different contexts. It seems there are >>>>> three I've been able to pick out. >>>>> >>>>> 1. as a derisive term in early Soviet >>>>> history. >>>>> 2. as an empowering term from Latin >>>>> American voices. >>>>> 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist >>>>> "brand" at the height of the Cold War >>>>> in the US. >>>>> >>>>> I'm not sure if I've done justice in the >>>>> manner that I've represented that, but it >>>>> is a well-intended attempt. Are there others? >>>>> >>>>> What I don't understand fully is whether >>>>> there must be ONE explanation how the term >>>>> came to be, or ONE definition of what it >>>>> actually means. Can't it be polysemantic? >>>>> polycontextual? >>>>> >>>>> If that is what's happening, then it makes >>>>> sense that there would be an ongoing >>>>> controversy about which one is the right >>>>> definition or reason for not using it, >>>>> depending on the interlocutor. >>>>> >>>>> If we are to talk about who used the term >>>>> first, and that's where the >>>>> value/authority holds, then all that tells >>>>> us is that for those who value who used >>>>> the term first. that's where the authority >>>>> is. >>>>> >>>>> If we talk about the emotional attachment >>>>> of the word as it is used in context and >>>>> that's where the value/authority holds, >>>>> then that tells us for those who value the >>>>> most personal attachment to the word, >>>>> that's where the authority is. >>>>> >>>>> If we talk about how the word was used >>>>> functionally, where the value/authority >>>>> holds in its efficacy, then all that tells >>>>> is that for those who value whether the >>>>> word works or not, that's where the >>>>> authority is. >>>>> >>>>> I'm not sure one can put any of one these >>>>> over the other two (or if there are more >>>>> than that, if there are more). All we can >>>>> say I suppose is whether in a particular >>>>> context is the word "sociocultural" >>>>> appropriate or not? >>>>> >>>>> I do find that this debate has begun to >>>>> have its own life, this debate over the >>>>> use of a word. I've begun doubt it will >>>>> ever cease. >>>>> >>>>> One day the discussion will be how one >>>>> used to debate about the term, first >>>>> everyone was this way about the word, than >>>>> they were that way about the word, and >>>>> many large camps were formed in XXXX year >>>>> to say why the word should not be used, >>>>> but then X years later other large camps >>>>> formed to say it is fine to use the word. >>>>> I suppose it will only be when the debate >>>>> ceases will it come to pass that the >>>>> debate will be forgotten. But will that >>>>> cessation solidify the use or non-use of >>>>> the word? >>>>> >>>>> I understand the reasons for saying >>>>> "cultural psychology." But for those >>>>> swimming in a culture where behaviorism is >>>>> considered the soul of psychology, adding >>>>> "cultural" becomes a sad necessity.? Even >>>>> then, that necessity only depends upon how >>>>> one sees culture, as either as an >>>>> additive, an integral ingredient of >>>>> psychology, or its basis. I believe I've >>>>> read on the list that one should be able >>>>> to say "psychology" and just *know* that >>>>> it includes culture. I don't think we are >>>>> there yet. >>>>> >>>>> Then that would be my argument to use >>>>> "sociocultural" to understand it includes >>>>> history. CHAT is sort of a defensive term >>>>> (well, it is an acronym). But then... it >>>>> leaves out "social" and is that OK? We >>>>> certainly should not say sociocultural >>>>> historical activity theory because that >>>>> acronym is very unfulfilling. What is nice >>>>> about CHAT though is that to chat is an >>>>> activity of speech, and there is a implied >>>>> meaning that also pertains to Vygotskian >>>>> theories, and therefore meaningful. >>>>> >>>>> In a sense, it's not the meaning that we >>>>> are arguing over, but how the limitations >>>>> of our particular language fails to convey >>>>> a meaning with such precision that it >>>>> thereby to parses away any other >>>>> inappropriate meaning. I'm just not sure >>>>> that the project is one that can be >>>>> achieved successfully, even if it succeeds >>>>> for an interim. >>>>> >>>>> At the same time I can see why story of >>>>> the elephant and the blind men also have a >>>>> part to play in our understandings and >>>>> assumptions. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> on behalf of Andy Blunden >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM >>>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural >>>>> psychology" ? >>>>> >>>>> *[EXTERNAL]* >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa, I have only been talking and >>>>> writing about Vygotsky and co. since about >>>>> 2000 and have been openly Marxist since >>>>> the 1960s (indeed, Vygotsky is core to how >>>>> I understand Marx) and never had any >>>>> reason not to be. But it is true that when >>>>> Mike first went to Moscow, it was at the >>>>> height of the Cold War, and when he and >>>>> others first brought Vygotsky's ideas to >>>>> the USA, there was a lot of resistance to >>>>> their Marxist content. I think the naming >>>>> issue only arose as Vygotsky and the >>>>> others began to build a real following. >>>>> The issues with the choice of name change >>>>> over the years, as you say. I prefer" >>>>> CHAT," but sometimes I use "Cultural >>>>> Psychology" and sometimes I use "Activity >>>>> Theory" depending on the context. >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> >>>>> Home Page >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Andy, et al, >>>>> >>>>> I sort of came to this a little late >>>>> in the thread, but I can offer that >>>>> Vera John-Steiner didn't mind >>>>> "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian >>>>> theory, but as I learn more about the >>>>> word (thank you Mike), I can see how >>>>> once a word is utilized with intent of >>>>> derision, it's hard for the >>>>> association to be broken. >>>>> >>>>> I think it's that way with words all >>>>> the time coming and going out of >>>>> favor, or meanings shifting, like the >>>>> game of telephone, but across >>>>> generations and cultures. >>>>> >>>>> Might I contribute to the discussion >>>>> by asking whether the use of >>>>> "sociocultural" was also a means of >>>>> making the theories more available in >>>>> the West (at least in the US). It >>>>> seems there was redscare (you are >>>>> welcome read the double entendre: "red >>>>> scare" or "reds care", as you like) >>>>> prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful >>>>> to remove the Marxist "brand" to >>>>> access the actual theories on child >>>>> development? In other words, to >>>>> depoliticize the science? >>>>> >>>>> I had been a proponent of the use of >>>>> the word, but as time passes, I can >>>>> see its problems. >>>>> >>>>> For me, I had preferred the word >>>>> because historical was always a given >>>>> for me. In concern of the here and >>>>> now, the real difficulty I had thought >>>>> was understanding the social- how >>>>> interactions between the child and the >>>>> caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer >>>>> and the -cultural, how the culture >>>>> impacts thought, those things are more >>>>> of the micro level, but also >>>>> sociocultural, how the two also can >>>>> interact and influence one another and >>>>> that combined bears its own signature >>>>> on the mind and its development. As >>>>> far as History (capital H) that is >>>>> sort of difficult to measure when we >>>>> are talking about child development as >>>>> there is very little history that a >>>>> child has, unless we are talking about >>>>> genetics, I suppose. >>>>> >>>>> Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the >>>>> term. I respect and am enriched by the >>>>> discourse in which we now we find >>>>> ourselves immersed about it so thanks >>>>> to all for this. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> on behalf of Andy Blunden >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM >>>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>> > -- > > > "How does newness come into the world?? How is it born? > Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" > Salman Rushdie > > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!SWzHKiQk5LBYJC_akHrj7JMBAvRE5X5M0hn6ydUkXYu1y5Jy6AY0YdRStq3T2rKQUjg98A$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu > . > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200522/ec9c7bb7/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Fri May 22 13:43:50 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 20:43:50 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Tom, and VO's of XMCA Concerning your questions about our new normal now that COVID19 is with us and here to stay, I think your guess is as good as anyone's. I am not sure if we as humans have ever been burdened with such an event as this, and at the same time are able to watch the unfolding events and respond (or not respond if you are a stable genius) quickly from the feedback of data, news, anecdotes, and other forms of perception of how the virus is impacting us. What is worth remembering as well, is that epidemiologists have been warning us for decades that a pandemic was a clear an present danger to the way we live and negotiate the modern world. We see in sensurround how right they were. As I consider your question, I have to think that people mow might be sorted into two classes, well at least two classes: 1. People who seem to think the virus is just another flu and once we find a vaccine, all will return to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday or pre-pandemic time you mark your calendar as before the pandemic hit, which of course depends upon where on the earth you are located). 2. People who seem to think the virus has changed us and there will never be going back to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday...) I suspect the Americans of the neo-conservative persuasion who have been motivated to protest health order social distancing believe that not only this is a conspiracy to control fredom-loving people, but that we should return to Christmas 2019 as soon as possible, they are of Cohort 1. I think Cohort 2 are going to be people who take in the facts and the data and are actively attempting to sort out where do we go from here. I feel confident you are in Cohort 2, as ar most people on this list. Now, as Carol M has pointed out, in a lot of ways our discussion about online learning is a first world concern, for those who have an internet connection that is ubiquitous not only at home, but at school, work, on the bus, on planes, in cafes, and other public gathering spaces, like city halls, or town squares. That's another reason why it's hard to take Klein seriously, in terms of *tone*. I recall reading something from George Lakoff when he indicates that there is a liberal stance that seems to believe that if one objects loudly enough with "sky is falling" rhetoric and then feed out various data, that using this strategy the audience will become motivated to protest in the streets, write letters to congress, run for office, or whatever civil action must be done, and with alacrity. It doesn't work. I do not think being against anything ever "works." I think only being for something works. Let's look at Klein's article as an example. If she were to be rhetorically successful she would outline the problem she identifies (Mr. Schmidt goes to Washington), but instead of all that is wrong, talk about what can be right. Not to say she should agree with Mr. Schmidt and his ways. I feel her article could be a lot heavier on what works with education and how to enhance that further. She does mention how money should b used more for school nurses, smaller classrooms, etc. This is where she could have expanded beautifully into a viable solution to spark everyone's imaginations. But she didn't do that. She is more motivated it seems to mark Mr. Schmidt and his technological minions to masterminding a New World Order that will steal our souls and tether us to the Matrix from now until the end of time. I also feel she would have been more conducive to discourse by writing an open letter to Cuomo and Schmidt, and to invite a response. This is also leading by example to cultivate democratic processes that are near and dear to all of us. Instead she "otherfies" them, and this is also not useful. And I am not saying that as a stance to defend Mr. Schmidt or Gov Cuomo, in any way. So back to your question, I do not think that there is any way we will be extricated from this reality of COVID 19. We will have to pick our stones across the river carefully so that none of us slips and is carried down the rapids. I feel it is more useful to say we are a family of one kind, and all of us have to stay together to make it across. And that all of us deserves a life jacket as a measure of survival because not all of us will get to the other side without getting wet, or falling in. The tension between CEOs and their contempt for the slow-food of democracy is well known. If only they could persuade all of us to eat fast food, then they could take over the world as the next McDonalds, in terms of technological vision, whatever a McDonalds would look like on a screen, as an app, whathaveyou. Unfortunately what seems to elude folks who have not worked in tech, or those who see tech as just another new Ford in the garage, is that technology is always in flux. There is always development of new hardware that needs new software written to use it, so there is a double-quicksand of events upon which technology is founded (and funded) upon. That's what Moore's Law is about. Technology in order to "be itself" must always move fleetingly, like the shark must to breathe. Technology will never be able to last the halls of government. For that reason, any rendition of technology in government (and school systems for that matter) will be like bad combovers that are meant to convince us that we are now more attractive and appealing (not meaning to offend those who live by their combovers...) Where I feel technology could best serve us is to help create grassroots democracy tools, to support what we know is possible and could even threaten the basis for representative democracy and bring it closer to a straight agora democracy. Some might call this anarchy, and I could argue along the lines of David Graeber that anarchy is a more pure form of democracy practiced in all "primitive" or "ancient" cultures, it's not a perfect fit, and I intend to make that reference loosely. My point is to say there should be what David K calls involution of what government is, to what government was, and to supplant that, or rather what causes those parts to be pushed to the margins is to imagine a government where there is mor connection to agora-like venues where one person speaking in a Zoom-like frame is of equal stature of any other person speaking in the frame. One can sort of imagine this with the Zoom-empowered senate hearings which I watched for a while on the NYT front page. It was really strange to me. I suppose the danger is that we get to hear Sally Mc? from Arizona use her time to blame the Chinese for the virus, etc, for more time that we would like. But that's democracy. So one fallout could be that grade-school kids and their resulting perezhivanie from Zoom-based classrooms, will adopt the tool for political discussions as adults. Might that be a good thing? Maybe. At the same time, do you remember a book that came out in the mid90s called "Silicon Snake Oil"? This is yet another phenomenon of technology, that people oozing charisma will claw their way to the microphone and pitch an idea about the next vaporware, who will then make unsubstantiated promises and claims directed to feed our fantasies and dreams, and who will then abscond with all the money, only to request not to look at the man behind the green curtain, or if pulled by the ear into a senate hearing will say "I thought it was a good idea at the time." etc. I think that is the view of Klein about all technology, and there are merits in that, but there are also other ways to think about it. This article about Marc Benioff in Wired recently discusses about the social entrepreneurship of his wealth: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.wired.com/story/gospel-of-wealth-according-to-marc-benioff/__;!!Mih3wA!QlFQ9K0fpCeY8Ago6eD8wEZsCoPsUNbxY-9nGASn68fLoIl7bpzI7P4YyuMxRNSRIbnKqA$ Who by they way now owns the magazine Time, the way Jeff Bezos bought the WaPo, and Lauren Jobs bought The Altlantic, and Pierre Omidyar funded The Intercept. I do invite, as much as you can stomach, anyway, for any educators or other members of our vibrant list to make regular reading of Wired Magazine, which is a far more interesting read on technology than something like Fast Company. I encourage this reading, if only to know the enemy, as it were. Wired articles are far more nuanced and sophisticated than when the magazine first got off the ground in the early 90s. I find reading it helps to connect some dots for those who do not consume technology culture all the time. Just pick and choose what you are curious about. We must become familiar with the vernacular of technology if we want a hand in the game of how it plays in education, our stomping grounds. This will require effort on our part. That is not to say we must adopt all the shiny new toys. But we can be like a Consumer Report for education, and evaluate and measure the good the bad and the ugly of technology and its use in the edu sphere. We cannot sit on our laurels and wait for someone else to decide for us how technology will be deployed. That stance is what the mythology of inevitable technology rests and self-perpetuates. We must be more tech literate, and we must be the first to coin words and how they manifest in edu venues. What works what doesn't. I don't see any other way to fight back and to keep control of the educational narrative, where of course we want to hardwire zopeds, manifest and lead critical and nourishing perezhivanie, and model by example sterling mediated learning experiences for students and teachers. What other projects can there be? For me, this is "fighting back" because it makes the sort of shark-like entrepreneur recede for a time (as they will always be looking for a way into edu's tax coffers), because we are successful getting education right. I do not accept that entreprenuership is what took the sanctity from teaching and learning. But that's an argument to be made. I feel it is only one side of the argument. Once I had an male acquaintance tell me that one reason women are in inferior roles is because they let this happen to them. As you might imagine, I had a real hard time with that argument and I had to clench my jaw to now spew various vitriol upon him. But after I thought about it, in a narrow sense he is not wrong because not it is true that enough women in history identified the value to struggle for rights even if they would not see equality in their own lifetimes. There are many explanations for why that did not happen, that are not facile to depict. But then I also had to think of how much women's struggles have succeeded because they did decide to not let this happen to them anymore. But now women are learning in the US, anyway, that nothing fought for is a permanent fixture, and so we must become resigned to the perpetual struggle for equality, as all marginalized people must. So now I direct this to our context of education in the venue of online learning. This is not an easy question, and it is not intended to trivialize the work and efforts of many on this list, but it is instead a question of inner reflection, or a taking of inventory of one's own life: How much has each of you done to take measure and fight for meaningful education in the classroom? Could you have done more? Can you do more? Then the same for asking yourself how have you integrated technology appropriately into your learning methods and general perezhivanie. I hope this might provide some further food for thought concerning preservation on the sanctity of learning and instruction in the classroom. So all this is to reply to you Tom, that in short, the nefarious They can only take control if we let them. Kind regards, Annalisa ps please excuse all typos, which are all made on my own. ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Tom Richardson Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 11:26 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hi Annalisa Thank you for providing the details of your deep and committed background in distance / online learning. Mine is obviously shallow, which must have triggered you and 'Robsub' somewhat. But my questioning is in the newer context of the Covid19 threats to global society and the solutions being sought to extricate us from them. Governor Cuomo's conversation with Schmidt to examine solutions to the problems of present coping and future emergence from the pandemic is understandable. Two persons with power and a need to act, discuss what technology (in its widest hard- and software aspects) has to offer. In a democracy we can assess the solutions they propose and shape them to what we know to be as near to optimal for our society as possible. Your assertion of the efficacy of our agency which Klein seems to deny, with her politico-economic caveats. Schmidt has an evangelism for the potential of technology, but expressed with such restraint - he's no zealot. He also, in the video of the ECNY conversation with Marie-Josee Kravis, sees the lack of 'simplicity' in the three-tier democratic system of the US. He is a CEO with an organisation geared to problem-analysis, solution choices, and operational capability which can be put into action without delaying debate. He expressed no hostility to 'democracy' but as he said, it does not work simply. Klein reminds us to be wary if not alarmed, not because she is despairing (I believe), but because that direct entrepreneurial drive has profit making as its unavoidable aim. Whatever Schmidt's humanistic feelings, if profit doesn't result from his and his companies actions, they will not survive. That competitive drive is also present in his aspirations for international dominance (see his remarks on the rise of China's technology). So far, the sort of distance / online learning you have worked on, has been nested in the context of family and (normal) school life. That normality had implicit in it human values, customs and structures, whatever differences of class, race, gender and culture were present. The melding of state and enterprise in a newly-developing novel (5G?)high-tech 'solution' to mediating education presents a situation which need to be examined I believe. And my query, in that 'Kleinian' context was looking for answers from those, like yourself, with wide experience of previous technological 'answers' and their implications for the results within the learner. I affirm, along with you, the irrepressible resistance and sheer cantankerousness we humans bring to unjust situations. But such fighting back will often be unsuccessful in its aims, when the need to reduce labour time with new technology is driving events - Luddism and machine looms? Our human drive to change and adapt, our use of our agency to create or alter our lives must not be suppressed. But what Klein is reminding us of is just how tilted is the balance of power - the power of the state and behind it, the drive from the vast corporate world, for profit. Our agency is so often undone by the arbitrary intervention of those forces. Those are the forces which have destroyed what you name the 'sanctity' of teaching and learning. I would name it the basic need for those goals, but we share it. With the need to re-invigorate just such a precious resource, we will continue to fight like hell. Despite their mere humanness, corporations and states at present have greater knowledge and power than 'mere' citizens. My intervention in xmca discussion was really to say "They're looking to take even more control of daily life. Within academia, you can analyse how they are making such changes happen and continue to alert the rest of us, if you fear the consequences of their changes." Best wishes Tom On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 22:29, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hi Tom, May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed by SL's prospects. In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of associations of place with learning. In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and constrain learning to books. We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of learning. I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged learning venues . Not with grade school. I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!QlFQ9K0fpCeY8Ago6eD8wEZsCoPsUNbxY-9nGASn68fLoIl7bpzI7P4YyuMxRNTECugYNA$ It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be integrated with existing models. If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and surveillance is a constructive combination. There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and introspection, I will never accept that reality. To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers and pins." I just do not believe this narrative. We cannot give up. Is there a fight ahead? Yes. Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most definitely, yes. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hello Annalisa Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. * What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such learning takes place?'. * What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes for the perezhivanie of the learner, which shapes her social being and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. Kind regards Tom On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello Tom, Thank you for posting the link. I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended into our lives. I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control the world. Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to deliberate the way forward. As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency to decide how to use our tools. Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply does not hold water for me. I hope this might be a little encouraging. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hello Tom Richardson This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat Project" that has just finished its planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human development, and theories of "Development in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most members of this discussion over the years, is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about for 100 years. Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing working models of effective practices that do NOT assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. Thanks for asking. mike On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson > wrote: Greetings Xmca-ers I would like to raise a question. In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening recently: "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks after that article appeared, he described the ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the country had been forced to cobble together during this public health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!QlFQ9K0fpCeY8Ago6eD8wEZsCoPsUNbxY-9nGASn68fLoIl7bpzI7P4YyuMxRNQpN3es3Q$ Just asking Tom Richardson Middlesbrough UK -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200522/1eb3ed67/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri May 22 14:39:19 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 06:39:19 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> <36147263-58ba-6908-ce60-bc367719772e@marxists.org> <71876107-fad8-3a23-2bd9-35d13d923268@marxists.org> <76d5fed9-4397-5cf6-aed4-d537df05af17@marxists.org> Message-ID: But this is not the exact quote. It is only a translation. The exact quote is this: ("...) da? es nichts gibt, nichts im Himmel oder in der Natur oder im Geiste oder wo es sei, was nicht ebenso die Unmittelbarkeit enth?lt als die Vermittlung, so da? sich diese beiden Bestimmungen als ungetrennt und untrennbar und jener Gegensatz sich als ein Nichtiges zeigt." (There is nothing given, neither in heaven nor in nature nor in mind nor in wherever it may be, which is not equally the unmediated contain alongside the mediated, so that both of these two determinations (i.e. determining something as unmediated or as mediated--DK) prove to be inseparable and inextricable, and their contrast (or their opposition--DK) proves nul." What's the difference between the exact quote and the translation? As I pointed out to Andy, the translation puts "equally" and "both" in the same clause, while the original German has them in two different clauses. Compare: a) Chiaroscuro paintings are both dark and light, and this was equally true for Caravaggio as for us. b) Chiaroscuro paintings are equally both dark and light in Caravaggio's time and in our own. Statement a) is true enough, although as Mike points out it is the beginning of a concrete genetic analysis and not the end. But statement b) is utterly false: it puts an end to all genetic analysis and abolishes development altogether. It says, uselessly, that all paintings are 100% dark and 100% light and so the only genetic analysis possible is one of changing self-consciousness, either in the painter or the viewer. This is an idealist dialectic, and it is certainly not a historical one. Similarly, it is one thing to say that all psychological functions are both mediated and unmediated, and this is equally true for lower functions as it is for higher functions. For example, when I look at a painting by Caravaggio or a film by Derek Jarman, the rod cells in my retina and my optic nerve are mediating the experience as well as my cerebral cortex and my biographical knowledge of Caravaggio. But it's very different to say that all psychological functions are equally both mediated and unmediated, or 100% mediated and 100% unmediated. In addition to the arithmetical absurdinty, this does not allow me to distinguish between lower and higher psychological functions. (And I do think this is how Andy gets his notion that when two things are different we cannot say that one is more developed than the other. Yet higher psychological functions do indeed presuppose lower functions but not the other way around. Andy calls this difference and not development; I call it equally both difference and development.) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!UhX3qSLCbdS5rxC7Q9WFIHPghpcB2oEb5UNjVMhBS8xyhYxH_Pn8J--D4dz7kemhahe23g$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UhX3qSLCbdS5rxC7Q9WFIHPghpcB2oEb5UNjVMhBS8xyhYxH_Pn8J--D4dz7kelgaaoaZw$ On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 2:13 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > And it is worth noting that Hegel wrote this in the 1810s simply on the > basis of logical criticism of Kant and Jacobi (a contemporary sharing some > views with Descartes). And yet it took more than a century (if I'm not > mistaken) to make its way into hard science. Here's how he explains it: > > ? 66 > That said, we continue to stand by the position that immediate knowing is > to be taken as a fact. With this, however, the consideration is directed > towards the field of experience, to a psychological phenomenon. ? In this > respect, it should be noted that it is one of the most common experiences > that truths (which one knows very well to be the result of the most > intricate and highly mediated considerations) present themselves > immediately in the consciousness of someone conversant with such knowledge. > Like everybody else who has been trained in a science, the mathematician > immediately has at his fingertips solutions to which a very complicated > analysis has led. Every educated person has immediately present in his or > her knowing a host of universal viewpoints and principles that have > resulted only from repeated reflection and long life experience. The > facility we have achieved in any sphere of knowing, also in fine art, in > technical dexterity, consists precisely in having those sorts of > familiarity, those kinds of activity immediately present in one?s > consciousness in the case at hand, indeed, even in an activity directed > outwards and in one?s limbs. ? In all these cases the immediacy of knowing > does not only not exclude its mediation; to the contrary, they are so > connected that immediate knowing is even the product and result of knowing > that has been mediated. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 22/05/2020 1:59 pm, mike cole wrote: > > Both HAVE TO BE present at once, Andy or there is no perception. > Mike > > On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 8:55 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Yes, last week in our Hegel Reading Group we read the section in the >> Shorter Logic, following his critiques of Kant and Descartes, Hegel >> explains how thought is both immediate *and* mediated, and even over >> Zoom I could see the clouds gradually receding from my young students' >> eyes. All of a sudden the whole fruitless argument between scepticism and >> dogmatism, relativism and historicism, fell away. The most difficult thing >> to grasp was how perception was not just immediate and mediated, but both >> were essentially present in the same moment, how without the cultural >> training of the senses the brain could not make any sense at all of the >> nervous stimulation of the organs of sight, etc. >> >> Andy >> >> PS. the exact quote from Hegel is: "there is nothing, nothing in heaven, >> or in nature or in mind or anywhere else which does not equally contain >> both immediacy and mediation" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/hl/hlbegin.htm*0092__;Iw!!Mih3wA!UhX3qSLCbdS5rxC7Q9WFIHPghpcB2oEb5UNjVMhBS8xyhYxH_Pn8J--D4dz7kekH-eIaBA$ >> >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 22/05/2020 9:20 am, mike cole wrote: >> >> This is a point I have struggled to make for many years, Andy. I didn't >> know I was quoting Hegel: >> >> Hegel: >> 'Everything is both immediate and mediated." >> >> The challenge is to rise to the concrete with this abstraction or its >> just la la la. >> >> mike >> >> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 6:42 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> Of course, Annalisa, I agree that Science is a moral practice, but that >>> is not what is at issue here. >>> >>> >>> Two issues concern me with what you have said: (1) the question of "who >>> decides?" and (2) the quantification of development as in "more evolved" >>> bringing with it the implication of moral value attached to development. >>> >>> >>> (1) The discovery of the "social construction of reality" was an >>> achievement of the Left, the progressives, with people like the Critical >>> Psychologists, the theorists of postmodernism and post-structural feminists >>> in the 1970s an 80s, who exposed how taken-for-granted facts along with the >>> truths of Science were on closer inspection ideological products of >>> dominant social groups. Of course, how reality is *seen *is an >>> inseparable part of how reality *is*. This insight led to a range of >>> powerful theoretical and practical critiques of all aspects of society. >>> Feminists offered an alternative way of interpreting reality as a powerful >>> lever for changing that reality by undermining patriarchal structures and >>> certainties. So far so good. But today, in 2020, it is not progressives who >>> are asking "who decides?" and calling into question the very idea of truth >>> and fact: it is Donald Trump and Rudi Giuliani. Quite honestly, this >>> outcome was always implicit in the postmodern and poststructuralist >>> critique. Or, could I say: "Donald Trump is a more evolved form of Judith >>> Butler" if I thought in those terms, which I don't. >>> >>> >>> Hegel takes up this problem with the maxim: "Everything is both >>> immediate and mediated." Yes, social interests dominant in a certain social >>> domain by definition determine what is true in that domain (though >>> remember, every social domain is finite and has its boundaries). But that >>> is not just by saying something about an* independently existing* >>> reality which can be subject to any number of *alternative* >>> representations (as Kant would have it), but rather the dominant social >>> interests *determine that reality itself*. They do that both *immediately >>> *and *through the ideal representation* of that reality which is *part >>> of that reality*. You can't "decide" by a purely discursive moves - you >>> have to *change *that reality. You do that with the weapons of both >>> theoretical and practical critique. >>> >>> >>> What this means is that you can study the documents (assuming you >>> weren't personally present) of some past dispute and see with your own eyes >>> how and why some people formulated new word meanings, and began to use >>> these new word meaning(s) in their own communication, and thereby >>> facilitated others from using this word meaning, and the relevant concepts, >>> in their work, and so on. >>> >>> >>> (2) As perhaps I have illustrated in my example above that there is no >>> implication of "higher" in development. In my own education, it was Sylvia >>> Scribner's "Uses of History" (1985) which explained this to me. "Higher" >>> implies comparison and comparison in turn implies *interchangeability*. >>> For example, if I was considering whether to emigrate to the US or France, >>> I might consider public safety as a metric and decide that France was >>> superior to the US and make my decision accordingly. Or, I might consider >>> job availability for an English-speaking monoglot like me as the metric, >>> and decide that the US was superior to France. But to decide that the US is >>> superior to France or vice versa without the choice and the relevant metric >>> is the moral judgment which neither you nor I find acceptable. They're just >>> different. >>> >>> >>> Understanding word meanings and concepts entails an analysis of *both *how >>> the word is used in the field in question, and the history as to how it >>> came to be so. Using the concept of "germ cell," I can work my way back and >>> forth through an etymological field, forensically, like a detective, until >>> I can connect the particular use of the word which emerged as a germ cell >>> at some earlier time, in some situation where the implication of choosing >>> that word meaning was abundantly clear to all, which allows me to see >>> *why* someone felt the need (now forgotten) to introduce the word >>> meaning and what it's absence would mean here and now, where it is already >>> taken for granted. >>> >>> >>> My apologies for the unacceptably long message, which is much against my >>> own mores, but I don't know how to clarify these issues more succinctly. >>> >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 20/05/2020 3:51 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>> Hi Andy, >>> >>> I suppose the issue about being on a branch of evolution has more to do >>> with who decides what the branch is. Is it time? or is it topical? or is it >>> based upon the interlocutors? >>> >>> If we say one word usage is more "evolved" than another, I suppose I am >>> just pushing back on that because who decides what is more evolved? >>> >>> Forgive me, but can we ever say that if something is more "evolved" it >>> is actually better? What do we actually mean when we say something is >>> evolved? >>> >>> What if one term lasts over a longer arc of time than another usage? It >>> seems if we use the evolution rubric, it would be considered more "fit" >>> than the one that is changing over the same period of time. >>> >>> I do find it helpful that you to bring up the germ cell and how that >>> concept pertains to analysis. That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm glad to >>> know that to assign the parentheses does entail an ideological move, and >>> that that can't be escaped. As long as we know what the ideology is, there >>> is transparency in our analysis. >>> >>> I do think moral evaluations are worth including on all discussions, not >>> necessarily to forbid discussions or scientific pursuits, but to use as >>> landmarks to keep our bearings. Scientific concepts have a way of not being >>> inclusive of contexts (i.e., lived experiences) or being grounded, right? >>> >>> Perhaps this is what made Vygotsky such a humane and compassionate >>> scientific thinker is that he could understand how scientific concepts can >>> be abusive tools for oppression. Anchoring them in lived experience shows >>> their validity. Would this be a fair statement to you, Andy? >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on >>> behalf of Andy Blunden >>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:23 PM >>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> >>> Annalisa, "where does history start"? Effectively there is no starting >>> point, and the choosing of a starting point is always an ideological move. >>> Foucault does this to great effect. Ilyenkov deals with this in his book >>> "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's Capital" and explains the need for >>> what he calls the "logical-historical method." To short circuit the >>> complexities of reading Ilyenkov, in CHAT we rely on the identification of >>> the unit of analysis or "germ cell" to anchor our historical investigation. >>> >>> >>> "Sociogenesis" is just Latin for "social development," the word I used. >>> But if you are going to ascribe a moral value to "evolution" and then >>> reject the concept on that basis, you'd better also reject "development" >>> and all the "geneses" and evolution of species by natural selection and all >>> modern biology while you are at it. Alternatively, you could choose >>> *not* to ascribe moral values to scientific concepts, then the whole of >>> science is open to you. >>> >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 18/05/2020 3:25 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>> Hi Andy (& VO's), >>> >>> I think that that was my point, that we cannot capture everything in the >>> word to describe the theory. And that is because of the limit of our >>> language. >>> >>> Even where genesis actually is, where something starts can be difficult >>> to pinpoint. I mean where does History actually start? >>> >>> These words that you mention phylogenesis, ethnogenesis, ontogenesis, >>> are words that are like brackets of a pair of parentheses. Who decides >>> where to put them? (And why not sociogenesis?) >>> >>> I'm not sure it's correct to say the choice of a word locates the user >>> on a branch of a cultural evolutionary tree, because then that starts to >>> mean that one speaker is more evolved than another based on the use of a >>> word. >>> >>> It might be better to say that the choice of a word locates the user to >>> a particular context. I could live with that. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on >>> behalf of Andy Blunden >>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:27 PM >>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> >>> You're never going to succeed in formally capturing the full scope of >>> the theory in a word, Annalisa. "socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical >>> activity theory" still leave out biology and Darwin, which is a part of our >>> theory, too. >>> >>> >>> It is sometimes said that human development is the coincidence of *four* >>> processes: *phylogenesis *(i.e., evolution of the species), cultural >>> development (*ethnogenesis*, the development of technology *and *language), >>> *social development* (one and the same culture has different classes >>> and political groups side by side) and *ontogenesis *(even twins can >>> grow up very differently according to the experiences (*perezhivaniya*) >>> they go through). I tried to describe this in: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/ontogenesis.htm__;!!Mih3wA!UhX3qSLCbdS5rxC7Q9WFIHPghpcB2oEb5UNjVMhBS8xyhYxH_Pn8J--D4dz7kelRJRYDAw$ >>> >>> >>> >>> But if you look into the history of a word what you will inevitably find >>> is that at some point (in time and social space) there was some dispute, >>> and this dispute was either (1) resolved by both parties agreeing and >>> marking this agreement by the coining of a new word meaning or the dropping >>> of a word meaning altogether, or (2) there is a split and one or both sides >>> of the split adopt a word meaning which distinguishes them from the other >>> side (structuralism's favourite trope) or variations on the above scenarios. >>> >>> >>> So the choice of a word tends to locate the user on a branch in the >>> cultural evolutionary tree. >>> >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 17/05/2020 11:56 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>> David K & VO's >>> >>> What pray-tell is an anthropologue? >>> >>> I am divided (pun intended) about saying that sociocultural = social + >>> culture, when they are intertwined holistically. To me, sociocultural >>> points to a space in between, or perhaps better said to a context of >>> interactions between individuals (who form a society) that are easily >>> accepted among them and practiced over time. >>> >>> We can conceptually parse out the social and the cultural, but don't we >>> do that because of the words and not because of the ostensible reality >>> going on interactionally? Can we always understand something by dissecting >>> it into parts? >>> >>> Again, this seems to be the limit of language, not of the conceptual >>> context or content. >>> >>> In a sense to use the term "sociocultural" is to grab the tail of the >>> tiger. The tail of the tiger is still the tiger, but perhaps a more >>> manageable one than to grab its head. >>> >>> Perhaps this is why Vygotskians just call themselves Vygotskians to >>> align themselves with the source of the first theories rather than to later >>> conceptions and other developments (i.e. Leontiev, etc). Just thinking out >>> loud. >>> >>> Another argument is that if we want to be all inclusive, then we have to >>> include tool-use, as it's not the social, the culture, and the history, but >>> also the language and tools used. I realize some practitioners would say >>> that language is no different than a tool, but I feel language is >>> different, even though it may have a similar cognitive response in the mind >>> as would using a tool. >>> >>> Activity suggests tool use, though not always. Consider dance, or >>> storytelling, or going for a walk. >>> >>> How about: socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory??? >>> >>> Yes! I am writing this a little tongue in cheek. I hope you do not mind. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalsia >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on >>> behalf of David Kellogg >>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:14 PM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> It's a very domain-specific umbrella, like those cane-brollies that go >>> with a bowler. "Sociocultural" is strongly preferred used in second >>> language acquisition, thanks to the influence of Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf >>> and Matthew Poehner; I have never seen "cultural historical" used in this >>> literature. But "cultural-historical" is similarly preferred in psychology >>> and anthropology, thanks to the influence of J.V. Wertsch, Mike >>> Cole, Martin Packer and Andy Blunden; that's really why we are having this >>> discussion on what "socio-cultural" might mean on a list largely populated >>> by roving psychologists and nomadic anthropologues. >>> >>> Interestingly, the Francophones prefer "historico-cultural", using the >>> argument that you can understand the process without the product but not >>> the product without the process. I stopped using "sociocultural" because I >>> thought it was redundant, but now I am really not sure of this: it seems to >>> me that the relationship is a similar one--you can study society as process >>> without studying its cultural product (e.g. as demographics, economics, >>> statistics) but you can't really study culture without some understanding >>> of the process of its formation. >>> >>> There was a similar disagreement in systemic functional linguistics >>> between Halliday and Jim Martin over the term "socio-semiotic". Martin said >>> that it was redundant, because there couldn't be any semiotic without >>> society. Halliday rather flippantly replied that ants had a society without >>> a semiotics, and at the time it seemed to me that this was a non >>> sequitur, first of all because ants don't really have a society in >>> our sense (precisely because there is no such thing as an ant history >>> separate from phylogenesis on the one hand and ontogenesis on the other) >>> and secondly because ants most definitely do have a semiotics, albeit one >>> based on chemistry and not perception as ours is. >>> >>> It seems to me, in retrospect, that the relationship between the >>> semiotic and the social is much more like the relationship between the >>> social and the biological, or even the biological and the chemical. The >>> semiotic is a certain level of organization that the social has, but there >>> are other levels, just as biology is a certain kind of chemical >>> organization which does not exclude other, nonbiological ways organizing >>> chemicals, and chemistry is a kind of physical organization which doesn't >>> exclude sub-chemical organizations. >>> >>> Perhaps we can think of the relationship between culture and society in >>> the same way? >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!UhX3qSLCbdS5rxC7Q9WFIHPghpcB2oEb5UNjVMhBS8xyhYxH_Pn8J--D4dz7kemhahe23g$ >>> >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* * Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UhX3qSLCbdS5rxC7Q9WFIHPghpcB2oEb5UNjVMhBS8xyhYxH_Pn8J--D4dz7kelgaaoaZw$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David H Kirshner wrote: >>> >>> 4. As an umbrella term for any sociogenetic approach. >>> >>> Isn?t that its current usage? >>> >>> David >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> *On Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar >>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Andy, and VO's, >>> >>> >>> >>> What fascinates me is that the word "sociocultural" has a lot of >>> different facets in terms of how the word was used in different contexts. >>> It seems there are three I've been able to pick out. >>> >>> 1. as a derisive term in early Soviet history. >>> 2. as an empowering term from Latin American voices. >>> 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist "brand" at the height of the >>> Cold War in the US. >>> >>> I'm not sure if I've done justice in the manner that I've represented >>> that, but it is a well-intended attempt. Are there others? >>> >>> >>> >>> What I don't understand fully is whether there must be ONE explanation >>> how the term came to be, or ONE definition of what it actually means. Can't >>> it be polysemantic? polycontextual? >>> >>> >>> >>> If that is what's happening, then it makes sense that there would be an >>> ongoing controversy about which one is the right definition or reason for >>> not using it, depending on the interlocutor. >>> >>> >>> >>> If we are to talk about who used the term first, and that's where the >>> value/authority holds, then all that tells us is that for those who value >>> who used the term first. that's where the authority is. >>> >>> >>> >>> If we talk about the emotional attachment of the word as it is used in >>> context and that's where the value/authority holds, then that tells us for >>> those who value the most personal attachment to the word, that's where the >>> authority is. >>> >>> >>> >>> If we talk about how the word was used functionally, where the >>> value/authority holds in its efficacy, then all that tells is that for >>> those who value whether the word works or not, that's where the authority >>> is. >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not sure one can put any of one these over the other two (or if >>> there are more than that, if there are more). All we can say I suppose is >>> whether in a particular context is the word "sociocultural" appropriate or >>> not? >>> >>> >>> >>> I do find that this debate has begun to have its own life, this debate >>> over the use of a word. I've begun doubt it will ever cease. >>> >>> >>> >>> One day the discussion will be how one used to debate about the term, >>> first everyone was this way about the word, than they were that way about >>> the word, and many large camps were formed in XXXX year to say why the word >>> should not be used, but then X years later other large camps formed to say >>> it is fine to use the word. I suppose it will only be when the debate >>> ceases will it come to pass that the debate will be forgotten. But will >>> that cessation solidify the use or non-use of the word? >>> >>> >>> >>> I understand the reasons for saying "cultural psychology." But for those >>> swimming in a culture where behaviorism is considered the soul of >>> psychology, adding "cultural" becomes a sad necessity. Even then, that >>> necessity only depends upon how one sees culture, as either as an additive, >>> an integral ingredient of psychology, or its basis. I believe I've read on >>> the list that one should be able to say "psychology" and just *know* that >>> it includes culture. I don't think we are there yet. >>> >>> >>> >>> Then that would be my argument to use "sociocultural" to understand it >>> includes history. CHAT is sort of a defensive term (well, it is an >>> acronym). But then... it leaves out "social" and is that OK? We certainly >>> should not say sociocultural historical activity theory because that >>> acronym is very unfulfilling. What is nice about CHAT though is that to >>> chat is an activity of speech, and there is a implied meaning that also >>> pertains to Vygotskian theories, and therefore meaningful. >>> >>> >>> >>> In a sense, it's not the meaning that we are arguing over, but how the >>> limitations of our particular language fails to convey a meaning with such >>> precision that it thereby to parses away any other inappropriate meaning. >>> I'm just not sure that the project is one that can be achieved >>> successfully, even if it succeeds for an interim. >>> >>> >>> >>> At the same time I can see why story of the elephant and the blind men >>> also have a part to play in our understandings and assumptions. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of Andy Blunden >>> *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM >>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >>> >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> >>> Annalisa, I have only been talking and writing about Vygotsky and co. >>> since about 2000 and have been openly Marxist since the 1960s (indeed, >>> Vygotsky is core to how I understand Marx) and never had any reason not to >>> be. But it is true that when Mike first went to Moscow, it was at the >>> height of the Cold War, and when he and others first brought Vygotsky's >>> ideas to the USA, there was a lot of resistance to their Marxist content. I >>> think the naming issue only arose as Vygotsky and the others began to build >>> a real following. The issues with the choice of name change over the years, >>> as you say. I prefer" CHAT," but sometimes I use "Cultural Psychology" and >>> sometimes I use "Activity Theory" depending on the context. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>> Andy, et al, >>> >>> >>> >>> I sort of came to this a little late in the thread, but I can offer that >>> Vera John-Steiner didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian >>> theory, but as I learn more about the word (thank you Mike), I can see how >>> once a word is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard for the >>> association to be broken. >>> >>> >>> >>> I think it's that way with words all the time coming and going out of >>> favor, or meanings shifting, like the game of telephone, but across >>> generations and cultures. >>> >>> >>> >>> Might I contribute to the discussion by asking whether the use of >>> "sociocultural" was also a means of making the theories more available in >>> the West (at least in the US). It seems there was redscare (you are welcome >>> read the double entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as you like) >>> prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the Marxist "brand" to >>> access the actual theories on child development? In other words, to >>> depoliticize the science? >>> >>> >>> >>> I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but as time passes, I can >>> see its problems. >>> >>> >>> >>> For me, I had preferred the word because historical was always a given >>> for me. In concern of the here and now, the real difficulty I had thought >>> was understanding the social- how interactions between the child and the >>> caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the -cultural, how the culture >>> impacts thought, those things are more of the micro level, but also >>> sociocultural, how the two also can interact and influence one another and >>> that combined bears its own signature on the mind and its development. As >>> far as History (capital H) that is sort of difficult to measure when we are >>> talking about child development as there is very little history that a >>> child has, unless we are talking about genetics, I suppose. >>> >>> >>> >>> Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect and am enriched by >>> the discourse in which we now we find ourselves immersed about it so thanks >>> to all for this. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on >>> behalf of Andy Blunden >>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM >>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> -- > > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, > translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UhX3qSLCbdS5rxC7Q9WFIHPghpcB2oEb5UNjVMhBS8xyhYxH_Pn8J--D4dz7kelASPsBDg$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200523/e81d6726/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri May 22 17:19:34 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 17:19:34 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> <36147263-58ba-6908-ce60-bc367719772e@marxists.org> <71876107-fad8-3a23-2bd9-35d13d923268@marxists.org> <76d5fed9-4397-5cf6-aed4-d537df05af17@marxists.org> Message-ID: That really inverts one?s viewpoint. Barbara Rogoff?s views about inextricability of persons and context in debate with Jaan Valsiner a couple of decades ago. Perhaps worth visiting. Mike On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 2:45 PM David Kellogg wrote: > But this is not the exact quote. It is only a translation. The exact quote > is this: > > > > ("...) da? es nichts gibt, nichts im Himmel oder in der Natur oder im > Geiste oder wo es sei, was nicht ebenso die Unmittelbarkeit enth?lt als die > Vermittlung, so da? sich diese beiden Bestimmungen als ungetrennt und > untrennbar und jener Gegensatz sich als ein Nichtiges zeigt." (There is > nothing given, neither in heaven nor in nature nor in mind nor in wherever > it may be, which is not equally the unmediated contain alongside the > mediated, so that both of these two determinations (i.e. determining > something as unmediated or as mediated--DK) prove to be inseparable and > inextricable, and their contrast (or their opposition--DK) proves nul." > > > What's the difference between the exact quote and the translation? As I > pointed out to Andy, the translation puts "equally" and "both" in the same > clause, while the original German has them in two different clauses. > Compare: > > a) Chiaroscuro paintings are both dark and light, and this was equally > true for Caravaggio as for us. > > b) Chiaroscuro paintings are equally both dark and light in Caravaggio's > time and in our own. > > Statement a) is true enough, although as Mike points out it is the > beginning of a concrete genetic analysis and not the end. But statement b) > is utterly false: it puts an end to all genetic analysis and abolishes > development altogether. It says, uselessly, that all paintings are 100% > dark and 100% light and so the only genetic analysis possible is one of > changing self-consciousness, either in the painter or the viewer. This is > an idealist dialectic, and it is certainly not a historical one. > > Similarly, it is one thing to say that all psychological functions are > both mediated and unmediated, and this is equally true for lower functions > as it is for higher functions. For example, when I look at a painting by > Caravaggio or a film by Derek Jarman, the rod cells in my retina and my > optic nerve are mediating the experience as well as my cerebral cortex and > my biographical knowledge of Caravaggio. > > But it's very different to say that all psychological functions are > equally both mediated and unmediated, or 100% mediated and 100% > unmediated. In addition to the arithmetical absurdinty, this does not allow > me to distinguish between lower and higher psychological functions. > > (And I do think this is how Andy gets his notion that when two things are > different we cannot say that one is more developed than the other. Yet > higher psychological functions do indeed presuppose lower functions but not > the other way around. Andy calls this difference and not development; I > call it equally both difference and development.) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!Rqn4WDUwUtgmePTcNK-DUgLJQw05GU2dAS4qYx1zCZYLqr4Zcrxcx9HH3WkoWwGw6OKVIA$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Rqn4WDUwUtgmePTcNK-DUgLJQw05GU2dAS4qYx1zCZYLqr4Zcrxcx9HH3WkoWwF7u5bdCA$ > > > > > On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 2:13 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> And it is worth noting that Hegel wrote this in the 1810s simply on the >> basis of logical criticism of Kant and Jacobi (a contemporary sharing some >> views with Descartes). And yet it took more than a century (if I'm not >> mistaken) to make its way into hard science. Here's how he explains it: >> >> ? 66 >> That said, we continue to stand by the position that immediate knowing is >> to be taken as a fact. With this, however, the consideration is directed >> towards the field of experience, to a psychological phenomenon. ? In this >> respect, it should be noted that it is one of the most common experiences >> that truths (which one knows very well to be the result of the most >> intricate and highly mediated considerations) present themselves >> immediately in the consciousness of someone conversant with such knowledge. >> Like everybody else who has been trained in a science, the mathematician >> immediately has at his fingertips solutions to which a very complicated >> analysis has led. Every educated person has immediately present in his or >> her knowing a host of universal viewpoints and principles that have >> resulted only from repeated reflection and long life experience. The >> facility we have achieved in any sphere of knowing, also in fine art, in >> technical dexterity, consists precisely in having those sorts of >> familiarity, those kinds of activity immediately present in one?s >> consciousness in the case at hand, indeed, even in an activity directed >> outwards and in one?s limbs. ? In all these cases the immediacy of knowing >> does not only not exclude its mediation; to the contrary, they are so >> connected that immediate knowing is even the product and result of knowing >> that has been mediated. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 22/05/2020 1:59 pm, mike cole wrote: >> >> Both HAVE TO BE present at once, Andy or there is no perception. >> Mike >> >> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 8:55 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> Yes, last week in our Hegel Reading Group we read the section in the >>> Shorter Logic, following his critiques of Kant and Descartes, Hegel >>> explains how thought is both immediate *and* mediated, and even over >>> Zoom I could see the clouds gradually receding from my young students' >>> eyes. All of a sudden the whole fruitless argument between scepticism and >>> dogmatism, relativism and historicism, fell away. The most difficult thing >>> to grasp was how perception was not just immediate and mediated, but both >>> were essentially present in the same moment, how without the cultural >>> training of the senses the brain could not make any sense at all of the >>> nervous stimulation of the organs of sight, etc. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> PS. the exact quote from Hegel is: "there is nothing, nothing in >>> heaven, or in nature or in mind or anywhere else which does not equally >>> contain both immediacy and mediation" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/hl/hlbegin.htm*0092__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Rqn4WDUwUtgmePTcNK-DUgLJQw05GU2dAS4qYx1zCZYLqr4Zcrxcx9HH3WkoWwFrjYs9eA$ >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 22/05/2020 9:20 am, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> This is a point I have struggled to make for many years, Andy. I didn't >>> know I was quoting Hegel: >>> >>> Hegel: >>> 'Everything is both immediate and mediated." >>> >>> The challenge is to rise to the concrete with this abstraction or its >>> just la la la. >>> >>> mike >>> >>> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 6:42 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>>> Of course, Annalisa, I agree that Science is a moral practice, but that >>>> is not what is at issue here. >>>> >>>> >>>> Two issues concern me with what you have said: (1) the question of "who >>>> decides?" and (2) the quantification of development as in "more evolved" >>>> bringing with it the implication of moral value attached to development. >>>> >>>> >>>> (1) The discovery of the "social construction of reality" was an >>>> achievement of the Left, the progressives, with people like the Critical >>>> Psychologists, the theorists of postmodernism and post-structural feminists >>>> in the 1970s an 80s, who exposed how taken-for-granted facts along with the >>>> truths of Science were on closer inspection ideological products of >>>> dominant social groups. Of course, how reality is *seen *is an >>>> inseparable part of how reality *is*. This insight led to a range of >>>> powerful theoretical and practical critiques of all aspects of society. >>>> Feminists offered an alternative way of interpreting reality as a powerful >>>> lever for changing that reality by undermining patriarchal structures and >>>> certainties. So far so good. But today, in 2020, it is not progressives who >>>> are asking "who decides?" and calling into question the very idea of truth >>>> and fact: it is Donald Trump and Rudi Giuliani. Quite honestly, this >>>> outcome was always implicit in the postmodern and poststructuralist >>>> critique. Or, could I say: "Donald Trump is a more evolved form of Judith >>>> Butler" if I thought in those terms, which I don't. >>>> >>>> >>>> Hegel takes up this problem with the maxim: "Everything is both >>>> immediate and mediated." Yes, social interests dominant in a certain social >>>> domain by definition determine what is true in that domain (though >>>> remember, every social domain is finite and has its boundaries). But that >>>> is not just by saying something about an* independently existing* >>>> reality which can be subject to any number of *alternative* >>>> representations (as Kant would have it), but rather the dominant social >>>> interests *determine that reality itself*. They do that both *immediately >>>> *and *through the ideal representation* of that reality which is *part >>>> of that reality*. You can't "decide" by a purely discursive moves - >>>> you have to *change *that reality. You do that with the weapons of >>>> both theoretical and practical critique. >>>> >>>> >>>> What this means is that you can study the documents (assuming you >>>> weren't personally present) of some past dispute and see with your own eyes >>>> how and why some people formulated new word meanings, and began to use >>>> these new word meaning(s) in their own communication, and thereby >>>> facilitated others from using this word meaning, and the relevant concepts, >>>> in their work, and so on. >>>> >>>> >>>> (2) As perhaps I have illustrated in my example above that there is no >>>> implication of "higher" in development. In my own education, it was Sylvia >>>> Scribner's "Uses of History" (1985) which explained this to me. "Higher" >>>> implies comparison and comparison in turn implies *interchangeability*. >>>> For example, if I was considering whether to emigrate to the US or France, >>>> I might consider public safety as a metric and decide that France was >>>> superior to the US and make my decision accordingly. Or, I might consider >>>> job availability for an English-speaking monoglot like me as the metric, >>>> and decide that the US was superior to France. But to decide that the US is >>>> superior to France or vice versa without the choice and the relevant metric >>>> is the moral judgment which neither you nor I find acceptable. They're just >>>> different. >>>> >>>> >>>> Understanding word meanings and concepts entails an analysis of *both *how >>>> the word is used in the field in question, and the history as to how it >>>> came to be so. Using the concept of "germ cell," I can work my way back and >>>> forth through an etymological field, forensically, like a detective, until >>>> I can connect the particular use of the word which emerged as a germ cell >>>> at some earlier time, in some situation where the implication of choosing >>>> that word meaning was abundantly clear to all, which allows me to see >>>> *why* someone felt the need (now forgotten) to introduce the word >>>> meaning and what it's absence would mean here and now, where it is already >>>> taken for granted. >>>> >>>> >>>> My apologies for the unacceptably long message, which is much against >>>> my own mores, but I don't know how to clarify these issues more succinctly. >>>> >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> On 20/05/2020 3:51 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Andy, >>>> >>>> I suppose the issue about being on a branch of evolution has more to do >>>> with who decides what the branch is. Is it time? or is it topical? or is it >>>> based upon the interlocutors? >>>> >>>> If we say one word usage is more "evolved" than another, I suppose I am >>>> just pushing back on that because who decides what is more evolved? >>>> >>>> Forgive me, but can we ever say that if something is more "evolved" it >>>> is actually better? What do we actually mean when we say something is >>>> evolved? >>>> >>>> What if one term lasts over a longer arc of time than another usage? It >>>> seems if we use the evolution rubric, it would be considered more "fit" >>>> than the one that is changing over the same period of time. >>>> >>>> I do find it helpful that you to bring up the germ cell and how that >>>> concept pertains to analysis. That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm glad to >>>> know that to assign the parentheses does entail an ideological move, and >>>> that that can't be escaped. As long as we know what the ideology is, there >>>> is transparency in our analysis. >>>> >>>> I do think moral evaluations are worth including on all discussions, >>>> not necessarily to forbid discussions or scientific pursuits, but to use as >>>> landmarks to keep our bearings. Scientific concepts have a way of not being >>>> inclusive of contexts (i.e., lived experiences) or being grounded, right? >>>> >>>> Perhaps this is what made Vygotsky such a humane and compassionate >>>> scientific thinker is that he could understand how scientific concepts can >>>> be abusive tools for oppression. Anchoring them in lived experience shows >>>> their validity. Would this be a fair statement to you, Andy? >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> on >>>> behalf of Andy Blunden >>>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:23 PM >>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >>>> >>>> >>>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>>> >>>> Annalisa, "where does history start"? Effectively there is no starting >>>> point, and the choosing of a starting point is always an ideological move. >>>> Foucault does this to great effect. Ilyenkov deals with this in his book >>>> "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's Capital" and explains the need for >>>> what he calls the "logical-historical method." To short circuit the >>>> complexities of reading Ilyenkov, in CHAT we rely on the identification of >>>> the unit of analysis or "germ cell" to anchor our historical investigation. >>>> >>>> >>>> "Sociogenesis" is just Latin for "social development," the word I used. >>>> But if you are going to ascribe a moral value to "evolution" and then >>>> reject the concept on that basis, you'd better also reject "development" >>>> and all the "geneses" and evolution of species by natural selection and all >>>> modern biology while you are at it. Alternatively, you could choose >>>> *not* to ascribe moral values to scientific concepts, then the whole >>>> of science is open to you. >>>> >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> On 18/05/2020 3:25 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Andy (& VO's), >>>> >>>> I think that that was my point, that we cannot capture everything in >>>> the word to describe the theory. And that is because of the limit of our >>>> language. >>>> >>>> Even where genesis actually is, where something starts can be difficult >>>> to pinpoint. I mean where does History actually start? >>>> >>>> These words that you mention phylogenesis, ethnogenesis, ontogenesis, >>>> are words that are like brackets of a pair of parentheses. Who decides >>>> where to put them? (And why not sociogenesis?) >>>> >>>> I'm not sure it's correct to say the choice of a word locates the user >>>> on a branch of a cultural evolutionary tree, because then that starts to >>>> mean that one speaker is more evolved than another based on the use of a >>>> word. >>>> >>>> It might be better to say that the choice of a word locates the user to >>>> a particular context. I could live with that. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> on >>>> behalf of Andy Blunden >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:27 PM >>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >>>> >>>> >>>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>>> >>>> You're never going to succeed in formally capturing the full scope of >>>> the theory in a word, Annalisa. "socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical >>>> activity theory" still leave out biology and Darwin, which is a part of our >>>> theory, too. >>>> >>>> >>>> It is sometimes said that human development is the coincidence of >>>> *four* processes: *phylogenesis *(i.e., evolution of the species), >>>> cultural development (*ethnogenesis*, the development of technology *and >>>> *language), *social development* (one and the same culture has >>>> different classes and political groups side by side) and *ontogenesis *(even >>>> twins can grow up very differently according to the experiences ( >>>> *perezhivaniya*) they go through). I tried to describe this in: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/ontogenesis.htm__;!!Mih3wA!Rqn4WDUwUtgmePTcNK-DUgLJQw05GU2dAS4qYx1zCZYLqr4Zcrxcx9HH3WkoWwG5yVvdxA$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But if you look into the history of a word what you will inevitably >>>> find is that at some point (in time and social space) there was some >>>> dispute, and this dispute was either (1) resolved by both parties agreeing >>>> and marking this agreement by the coining of a new word meaning or the >>>> dropping of a word meaning altogether, or (2) there is a split and one or >>>> both sides of the split adopt a word meaning which distinguishes them from >>>> the other side (structuralism's favourite trope) or variations on the above >>>> scenarios. >>>> >>>> >>>> So the choice of a word tends to locate the user on a branch in the >>>> cultural evolutionary tree. >>>> >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> On 17/05/2020 11:56 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>>> >>>> David K & VO's >>>> >>>> What pray-tell is an anthropologue? >>>> >>>> I am divided (pun intended) about saying that sociocultural = social + >>>> culture, when they are intertwined holistically. To me, sociocultural >>>> points to a space in between, or perhaps better said to a context of >>>> interactions between individuals (who form a society) that are easily >>>> accepted among them and practiced over time. >>>> >>>> We can conceptually parse out the social and the cultural, but don't we >>>> do that because of the words and not because of the ostensible reality >>>> going on interactionally? Can we always understand something by dissecting >>>> it into parts? >>>> >>>> Again, this seems to be the limit of language, not of the conceptual >>>> context or content. >>>> >>>> In a sense to use the term "sociocultural" is to grab the tail of the >>>> tiger. The tail of the tiger is still the tiger, but perhaps a more >>>> manageable one than to grab its head. >>>> >>>> Perhaps this is why Vygotskians just call themselves Vygotskians to >>>> align themselves with the source of the first theories rather than to later >>>> conceptions and other developments (i.e. Leontiev, etc). Just thinking out >>>> loud. >>>> >>>> Another argument is that if we want to be all inclusive, then we have >>>> to include tool-use, as it's not the social, the culture, and the history, >>>> but also the language and tools used. I realize some practitioners would >>>> say that language is no different than a tool, but I feel language is >>>> different, even though it may have a similar cognitive response in the mind >>>> as would using a tool. >>>> >>>> Activity suggests tool use, though not always. Consider dance, or >>>> storytelling, or going for a walk. >>>> >>>> How about: socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory??? >>>> >>>> Yes! I am writing this a little tongue in cheek. I hope you do not >>>> mind. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalsia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> on >>>> behalf of David Kellogg >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:14 PM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >>>> >>>> >>>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>>> It's a very domain-specific umbrella, like those cane-brollies that go >>>> with a bowler. "Sociocultural" is strongly preferred used in second >>>> language acquisition, thanks to the influence of Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf >>>> and Matthew Poehner; I have never seen "cultural historical" used in this >>>> literature. But "cultural-historical" is similarly preferred in psychology >>>> and anthropology, thanks to the influence of J.V. Wertsch, Mike >>>> Cole, Martin Packer and Andy Blunden; that's really why we are having this >>>> discussion on what "socio-cultural" might mean on a list largely populated >>>> by roving psychologists and nomadic anthropologues. >>>> >>>> Interestingly, the Francophones prefer "historico-cultural", using the >>>> argument that you can understand the process without the product but not >>>> the product without the process. I stopped using "sociocultural" because I >>>> thought it was redundant, but now I am really not sure of this: it seems to >>>> me that the relationship is a similar one--you can study society as process >>>> without studying its cultural product (e.g. as demographics, economics, >>>> statistics) but you can't really study culture without some understanding >>>> of the process of its formation. >>>> >>>> There was a similar disagreement in systemic functional linguistics >>>> between Halliday and Jim Martin over the term "socio-semiotic". Martin said >>>> that it was redundant, because there couldn't be any semiotic without >>>> society. Halliday rather flippantly replied that ants had a society without >>>> a semiotics, and at the time it seemed to me that this was a non >>>> sequitur, first of all because ants don't really have a society in >>>> our sense (precisely because there is no such thing as an ant history >>>> separate from phylogenesis on the one hand and ontogenesis on the other) >>>> and secondly because ants most definitely do have a semiotics, albeit one >>>> based on chemistry and not perception as ours is. >>>> >>>> It seems to me, in retrospect, that the relationship between the >>>> semiotic and the social is much more like the relationship between the >>>> social and the biological, or even the biological and the chemical. The >>>> semiotic is a certain level of organization that the social has, but there >>>> are other levels, just as biology is a certain kind of chemical >>>> organization which does not exclude other, nonbiological ways organizing >>>> chemicals, and chemistry is a kind of physical organization which doesn't >>>> exclude sub-chemical organizations. >>>> >>>> Perhaps we can think of the relationship between culture and society in >>>> the same way? >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!Rqn4WDUwUtgmePTcNK-DUgLJQw05GU2dAS4qYx1zCZYLqr4Zcrxcx9HH3WkoWwGw6OKVIA$ >>>> >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>> Works* * Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Rqn4WDUwUtgmePTcNK-DUgLJQw05GU2dAS4qYx1zCZYLqr4Zcrxcx9HH3WkoWwF7u5bdCA$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David H Kirshner >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> 4. As an umbrella term for any sociogenetic approach. >>>> >>>> Isn?t that its current usage? >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Andy, and VO's, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What fascinates me is that the word "sociocultural" has a lot of >>>> different facets in terms of how the word was used in different contexts. >>>> It seems there are three I've been able to pick out. >>>> >>>> 1. as a derisive term in early Soviet history. >>>> 2. as an empowering term from Latin American voices. >>>> 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist "brand" at the height of the >>>> Cold War in the US. >>>> >>>> I'm not sure if I've done justice in the manner that I've represented >>>> that, but it is a well-intended attempt. Are there others? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What I don't understand fully is whether there must be ONE explanation >>>> how the term came to be, or ONE definition of what it actually means. Can't >>>> it be polysemantic? polycontextual? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If that is what's happening, then it makes sense that there would be an >>>> ongoing controversy about which one is the right definition or reason for >>>> not using it, depending on the interlocutor. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If we are to talk about who used the term first, and that's where the >>>> value/authority holds, then all that tells us is that for those who value >>>> who used the term first. that's where the authority is. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If we talk about the emotional attachment of the word as it is used in >>>> context and that's where the value/authority holds, then that tells us for >>>> those who value the most personal attachment to the word, that's where the >>>> authority is. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If we talk about how the word was used functionally, where the >>>> value/authority holds in its efficacy, then all that tells is that for >>>> those who value whether the word works or not, that's where the authority >>>> is. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not sure one can put any of one these over the other two (or if >>>> there are more than that, if there are more). All we can say I suppose is >>>> whether in a particular context is the word "sociocultural" appropriate or >>>> not? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I do find that this debate has begun to have its own life, this debate >>>> over the use of a word. I've begun doubt it will ever cease. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> One day the discussion will be how one used to debate about the term, >>>> first everyone was this way about the word, than they were that way about >>>> the word, and many large camps were formed in XXXX year to say why the word >>>> should not be used, but then X years later other large camps formed to say >>>> it is fine to use the word. I suppose it will only be when the debate >>>> ceases will it come to pass that the debate will be forgotten. But will >>>> that cessation solidify the use or non-use of the word? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I understand the reasons for saying "cultural psychology." But for >>>> those swimming in a culture where behaviorism is considered the soul of >>>> psychology, adding "cultural" becomes a sad necessity. Even then, that >>>> necessity only depends upon how one sees culture, as either as an additive, >>>> an integral ingredient of psychology, or its basis. I believe I've read on >>>> the list that one should be able to say "psychology" and just *know* that >>>> it includes culture. I don't think we are there yet. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Then that would be my argument to use "sociocultural" to understand it >>>> includes history. CHAT is sort of a defensive term (well, it is an >>>> acronym). But then... it leaves out "social" and is that OK? We certainly >>>> should not say sociocultural historical activity theory because that >>>> acronym is very unfulfilling. What is nice about CHAT though is that to >>>> chat is an activity of speech, and there is a implied meaning that also >>>> pertains to Vygotskian theories, and therefore meaningful. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In a sense, it's not the meaning that we are arguing over, but how the >>>> limitations of our particular language fails >>>> >>>> -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Rqn4WDUwUtgmePTcNK-DUgLJQw05GU2dAS4qYx1zCZYLqr4Zcrxcx9HH3WkoWwHud1vERA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200522/600f7b21/attachment-0001.html From andyb@marxists.org Fri May 22 21:02:52 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 14:02:52 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> <36147263-58ba-6908-ce60-bc367719772e@marxists.org> <71876107-fad8-3a23-2bd9-35d13d923268@marxists.org> <76d5fed9-4397-5cf6-aed4-d537df05af17@marxists.org> Message-ID: <2703e2e1-c401-7601-9256-21355b19f796@marxists.org> I won't argue the translation with you David; not only is it clear, it's just one particularly pithy line in a simultaneous critique of Jacobi and Kant, two alternative attitudes of modern philosophy to Objectivity expounded over a number of pages of dense argument. And it is argument about the /beginnings of philosophy/, not psychology, and certainly about the distinction between basic and higher mental functions. Does the subject have an immediate relation to objectivity? Undoubtedly "yes." If you say "no" then you are with Kant and the material world lies beyond human knowledge, /jenseits/. Is the relation of the subject to objectivity mediated? Undoubtedly "yes." If you say "no" then you are either with Revealed Religion or naive realism. There is no 50-50 here. It is not the truth being somewhere in the middle.? It is 100% yes and 100% yes. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/05/2020 7:39 am, David Kellogg wrote: > > But this is not the exact quote. It is only a translation. > The exact quote is this: > > ("...) da? es nichts gibt, nichts im Himmel oder in der > Natur oder im Geiste oder wo es sei, was nicht ebenso die > Unmittelbarkeit enth?lt als die Vermittlung, so da? sich > diese beiden Bestimmungen als ungetrennt und untrennbar > und jener Gegensatz sich als ein Nichtiges zeigt." (There > is nothing given, neither in heaven nor in nature nor in > mind nor in wherever it may be, which is not equally the > unmediated contain alongside the mediated, so that both of > these two determinations (i.e. determining something as > unmediated or as mediated--DK) prove to be inseparable and > inextricable, and their contrast (or their opposition--DK) > proves nul." > > > What's the difference between the exact quote and the > translation? As I pointed out to Andy, the translation > puts "equally" and "both" in the same clause, while the > original German has them in two different clauses. Compare: > > a) Chiaroscuro paintings are both dark and light, and this > was equally true for Caravaggio as for us. > > b) Chiaroscuro paintings are equally both dark and light > in Caravaggio's time and in our own. > > Statement a) is true enough, although as Mike points out > it is the beginning of a concrete genetic analysis and not > the end. But statement?b) is utterly false: it puts an end > to all genetic analysis and abolishes development > altogether. It says, uselessly, that all paintings are > 100% dark and 100% light and so the only genetic analysis > possible is one of changing self-consciousness, either in > the painter or the viewer. This is an idealist dialectic, > and it is certainly not a historical one. > > Similarly, it is one thing to say that all psychological > functions are both mediated and unmediated, and this is > equally true for lower functions as it is for higher > functions. For example, when I look at a painting by > Caravaggio or a film by Derek Jarman, the rod cells in my > retina and my optic nerve are mediating the experience as > well as my cerebral cortex and my biographical knowledge > of Caravaggio. > > But it's very different to say that all psychological > functions are equally both mediated and unmediated, or100% > mediated and 100% unmediated. In addition to the > arithmetical absurdinty, this does not allow me to > distinguish between lower and higher psychological functions. > > (And I do think this is how Andy gets his notion that when > two things are different we cannot say that one is more > developed than the other. Yet higher psychological > functions do indeed presuppose lower functions but not the > other way around. Andy calls this difference and not > development; I call it equally both difference and > development.) > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a > manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!Q5tqqNq9av_0Mgbytqiz_f32wma6JhRq615p-kbq2d-npu-bmGh8nAejEW6OpobiNehdxg$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. Vygotsky's > Pedological Works/ /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Q5tqqNq9av_0Mgbytqiz_f32wma6JhRq615p-kbq2d-npu-bmGh8nAejEW6OpoZPLX5WDQ$ > > > > > On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 2:13 PM Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > And it is worth noting that Hegel wrote this in the > 1810s simply on the basis of logical criticism of Kant > and Jacobi (a contemporary sharing some views with > Descartes). And yet it took more than a century (if > I'm not mistaken) to make its way into hard science. > Here's how he explains it: > > ? 66 > That said, we continue to stand by the > position that immediate knowing is to be taken > as a fact. With this, however, the > consideration is directed towards the field of > experience, to a psychological phenomenon. ? > In this respect, it should be noted that it is > one of the most common experiences that truths > (which one knows very well to be the result of > the most intricate and highly mediated > considerations) present themselves immediately > in the consciousness of someone conversant > with such knowledge. Like everybody else who > has been trained in a science, the > mathematician immediately has at his > fingertips solutions to which a very > complicated analysis has led. Every educated > person has immediately present in his or her > knowing a host of universal viewpoints and > principles that have resulted only from > repeated reflection and long life experience. > The facility we have achieved in any sphere of > knowing, also in fine art, in technical > dexterity, consists precisely in having those > sorts of familiarity, those kinds of activity > immediately present in one?s consciousness in > the case at hand, indeed, even in an activity > directed outwards and in one?s limbs. ? In all > these cases the immediacy of knowing does not > only not exclude its mediation; to the > contrary, they are so connected that immediate > knowing is even the product and result of > knowing that has been mediated. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 22/05/2020 1:59 pm, mike cole wrote: >> Both HAVE TO BE present at once, Andy or there is no >> perception. >> Mike >> >> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 8:55 PM Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >> >> Yes, last week in our Hegel Reading Group we read >> the section in the? Shorter Logic, following his >> critiques of Kant and Descartes, Hegel explains >> how thought is both immediate /and/ mediated, and >> even over Zoom I could see the clouds gradually >> receding from my young students' eyes. All of a >> sudden the whole fruitless argument between >> scepticism and dogmatism, relativism and >> historicism, fell away. The most difficult thing >> to grasp was how perception was not just >> immediate and mediated, but both were essentially >> present in the same moment, how without the >> cultural training of the senses the brain could >> not make any sense at all of the nervous >> stimulation of the organs of sight, etc. >> >> Andy >> >> PS. the exact quote from Hegel is: "there is >> nothing, nothing in heaven, or in nature or in >> mind or anywhere else which does not equally >> contain both immediacy and mediation" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/hl/hlbegin.htm*0092__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Q5tqqNq9av_0Mgbytqiz_f32wma6JhRq615p-kbq2d-npu-bmGh8nAejEW6OpoZw9K8C-g$ >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 22/05/2020 9:20 am, mike cole wrote: >>> This is a point I have struggled to make for >>> many years, Andy. I didn't know I was quoting Hegel: >>> >>> Hegel: >>> 'Everything is both immediate and mediated." >>> >>> The challenge is to rise to the concrete with >>> this abstraction or its just la la la. >>> >>> mike >>> >>> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 6:42 PM Andy Blunden >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> Of course, Annalisa, I agree that Science is >>> a moral practice, but that is not what is at >>> issue here. >>> >>> >>> Two issues concern me with what you have >>> said: (1) the question of "who decides?" and >>> (2) the quantification of development as in >>> "more evolved" bringing with it the >>> implication of moral value attached to >>> development. >>> >>> >>> (1) The discovery of the "social >>> construction of reality" was an achievement >>> of the Left, the progressives, with people >>> like the Critical Psychologists, the >>> theorists of postmodernism and >>> post-structural feminists in the 1970s an >>> 80s, who exposed how taken-for-granted facts >>> along with the truths of Science were on >>> closer inspection ideological products of >>> dominant social groups. Of course, how >>> reality is /seen /is an inseparable part of >>> how reality /is/. This insight led to a >>> range of powerful theoretical and practical >>> critiques of all aspects of society. >>> Feminists offered an alternative way of >>> interpreting reality as a powerful lever for >>> changing that reality by undermining >>> patriarchal structures and certainties. So >>> far so good. But today, in 2020, it is not >>> progressives who are asking "who decides?" >>> and calling into question the very idea of >>> truth and fact: it is Donald Trump and Rudi >>> Giuliani. Quite honestly, this outcome was >>> always implicit in the postmodern and >>> poststructuralist critique. Or, could I say: >>> "Donald Trump is a more evolved form of >>> Judith Butler" if I thought in those terms, >>> which I don't. >>> >>> >>> Hegel takes up this problem with the maxim: >>> "Everything is both immediate and mediated." >>> Yes, social interests dominant in a certain >>> social domain by definition determine what >>> is true in that domain (though remember, >>> every social domain is finite and has its >>> boundaries). But that is not just by saying >>> something about an/independently existing/ >>> reality which can be subject to any number >>> of /alternative/ representations (as Kant >>> would have it), but rather the dominant >>> social interests /determine that reality >>> itself/. They do that both /immediately /and >>> /through the ideal representation/ of that >>> reality which is *part of that reality*. You >>> can't "decide" by a purely discursive moves >>> - you have to /change /that reality. You do >>> that with the weapons of both theoretical >>> and practical critique. >>> >>> >>> What this means is that you can study the >>> documents (assuming you weren't personally >>> present) of some past dispute and see with >>> your own eyes how and why some people >>> formulated new word meanings, and began to >>> use these new word meaning(s) in their own >>> communication, and thereby facilitated >>> others from using this word meaning, and the >>> relevant concepts, in their work, and so on. >>> >>> >>> (2) As perhaps I have illustrated in my >>> example above that there is no implication >>> of "higher" in development. In my own >>> education, it was Sylvia Scribner's "Uses of >>> History" (1985) which explained this to me. >>> "Higher" implies comparison and comparison >>> in turn implies /interchangeability/. For >>> example, if I was considering whether to >>> emigrate to the US or France, I might >>> consider public safety as a metric and >>> decide that France was superior to the US >>> and make my decision accordingly. Or, I >>> might consider job availability for an >>> English-speaking monoglot like me as the >>> metric, and decide that the US was superior >>> to France. But to decide that the US is >>> superior to France or vice versa without the >>> choice and the relevant metric is the moral >>> judgment which neither you nor I find >>> acceptable. They're just different. >>> >>> >>> Understanding word meanings and concepts >>> entails an analysis of *both *how the word >>> is used in the field in question, and the >>> history as to how it came to be so. Using >>> the concept of "germ cell," I can work my >>> way back and forth through an etymological >>> field, forensically, like a detective, until >>> I can connect the particular use of the word >>> which emerged as a germ cell at some earlier >>> time, in some situation where the >>> implication of choosing that word meaning >>> was abundantly clear to all, which allows me >>> to see *why* someone felt the need (now >>> forgotten) to introduce the word meaning and >>> what it's absence would mean here and now, >>> where it is already taken for granted. >>> >>> >>> My apologies for the unacceptably long >>> message, which is much against my own mores, >>> but I don't know how to clarify these issues >>> more succinctly. >>> >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> On 20/05/2020 3:51 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>>> Hi Andy, >>>> >>>> I suppose the issue about being on a branch >>>> of evolution has more to do with who >>>> decides what the branch is. Is it time? or >>>> is it topical? or is it based upon the >>>> interlocutors? >>>> >>>> If we say one word usage is more "evolved" >>>> than another, I suppose I am just pushing >>>> back on that because who decides what is >>>> more evolved? >>>> >>>> Forgive me, but can we ever say that if >>>> something is more "evolved" it is actually >>>> better? What do we actually mean when we >>>> say something is evolved? >>>> >>>> What if one term lasts over a longer arc of >>>> time than another usage? It seems if we use >>>> the evolution rubric, it would be >>>> considered more "fit" than the one that is >>>> changing over the same period of time. >>>> >>>> I do find it helpful that you to bring up >>>> the germ cell and how that concept pertains >>>> to analysis. That makes a lot of sense to >>>> me. I'm glad to know that to assign the >>>> parentheses does entail an ideological >>>> move, and that that can't be escaped. As >>>> long as we know what the ideology is, there >>>> is transparency in our analysis. >>>> >>>> I do think moral evaluations are worth >>>> including on all discussions, not >>>> necessarily to forbid discussions or >>>> scientific pursuits, but to use as >>>> landmarks to keep our bearings. Scientific >>>> concepts have a way of not being inclusive >>>> of contexts (i.e., lived experiences) or >>>> being grounded, right? >>>> >>>> Perhaps this is what made Vygotsky such a >>>> humane and compassionate scientific thinker >>>> is that he could understand how scientific >>>> concepts can be abusive tools for >>>> oppression. Anchoring them in lived >>>> experience shows their validity. Would this >>>> be a fair statement to you, Andy? >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> on >>>> behalf of Andy Blunden >>>> >>>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:23 PM >>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural >>>> psychology" ? >>>> >>>> *? [EXTERNAL]* >>>> >>>> ** >>>> >>>> Annalisa, "where does history start"? >>>> Effectively there is no starting point, and >>>> the choosing of a starting point is always >>>> an ideological move. Foucault does this to >>>> great effect. Ilyenkov deals with this in >>>> his book "The Abstract and Concrete in >>>> Marx's Capital" and explains the need for >>>> what he calls the "logical-historical >>>> method." To short circuit the complexities >>>> of reading Ilyenkov, in CHAT we rely on the >>>> identification of the unit of analysis or >>>> "germ cell" to anchor our historical >>>> investigation. >>>> >>>> >>>> "Sociogenesis" is just Latin for "social >>>> development," the word I used. But if you >>>> are going to ascribe a moral value to >>>> "evolution" and then reject the concept on >>>> that basis, you'd better also reject >>>> "development" and all the "geneses" and >>>> evolution of species by natural selection >>>> and all modern biology while you are at it. >>>> Alternatively, you could choose *not* to >>>> ascribe moral values to scientific >>>> concepts, then the whole of science is open >>>> to you. >>>> >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> On 18/05/2020 3:25 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>>>> Hi Andy (& VO's), >>>>> >>>>> I think that that was my point, that we >>>>> cannot capture everything in the word to >>>>> describe the theory. And that is because >>>>> of the limit of our language. >>>>> >>>>> Even where genesis actually is, where >>>>> something starts can be difficult to >>>>> pinpoint. I mean where does History >>>>> actually start? >>>>> >>>>> These words that you mention phylogenesis, >>>>> ethnogenesis, ontogenesis, are words that >>>>> are like brackets of a pair of >>>>> parentheses. Who decides where to put >>>>> them? (And why not sociogenesis?) >>>>> >>>>> I'm not sure it's correct to say the >>>>> choice of a word locates the user on a >>>>> branch of a cultural evolutionary tree, >>>>> because then that starts to mean that one >>>>> speaker is more evolved than another based >>>>> on the use of a word. >>>>> >>>>> It might be better to say that the choice >>>>> of a word locates the user to a particular >>>>> context. I could live with that. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> on behalf of Andy Blunden >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:27 PM >>>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural >>>>> psychology" ? >>>>> >>>>> *? [EXTERNAL]* >>>>> >>>>> You're never going to succeed in formally >>>>> capturing the full scope of the theory in >>>>> a word, Annalisa. >>>>> "socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical >>>>> activity theory" still leave out biology >>>>> and Darwin, which is a part of our theory, >>>>> too. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It is sometimes said that human >>>>> development is the coincidence of *four* >>>>> processes: *phylogenesis *(i.e., evolution >>>>> of the species), cultural development >>>>> (*ethnogenesis*, the development of >>>>> technology *and *language), *social >>>>> development* (one and the same culture has >>>>> different classes and political groups >>>>> side by side) and *ontogenesis *(even >>>>> twins can grow up very differently >>>>> according to the experiences >>>>> (/perezhivaniya/) they go through). I >>>>> tried to describe this in: >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/ontogenesis.htm__;!!Mih3wA!Q5tqqNq9av_0Mgbytqiz_f32wma6JhRq615p-kbq2d-npu-bmGh8nAejEW6OpoYtTbGMBQ$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But if you look into the history of a word >>>>> what you will inevitably find is that at >>>>> some point (in time and social space) >>>>> there was some dispute, and this dispute >>>>> was either (1) resolved by both parties >>>>> agreeing and marking this agreement by the >>>>> coining of a new word meaning or the >>>>> dropping of a word meaning altogether, or >>>>> (2) there is a split and one or both sides >>>>> of the split adopt a word meaning which >>>>> distinguishes them from the other side >>>>> (structuralism's favourite trope) or >>>>> variations on the above scenarios. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So the choice of a word tends to locate >>>>> the user on a branch in the cultural >>>>> evolutionary tree. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> >>>>> Home Page >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 17/05/2020 11:56 am, Annalisa Aguilar >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> David K & VO's >>>>>> >>>>>> What pray-tell is an anthropologue? >>>>>> >>>>>> I am divided (pun intended) about saying >>>>>> that sociocultural = social + culture, >>>>>> when they are intertwined holistically. >>>>>> To me, sociocultural points to a space in >>>>>> between, or perhaps better said to a >>>>>> context of interactions between >>>>>> individuals (who form a society) that are >>>>>> easily accepted among them and practiced >>>>>> over time. >>>>>> >>>>>> We can conceptually parse out the social >>>>>> and the cultural, but don't we do that >>>>>> because of the words and not because of >>>>>> the ostensible reality going on >>>>>> interactionally? Can we always understand >>>>>> something by dissecting it into parts? >>>>>> >>>>>> Again, this seems to be the limit of >>>>>> language, not of the conceptual context >>>>>> or content. >>>>>> >>>>>> In a sense to use the term >>>>>> "sociocultural" is to grab the tail of >>>>>> the tiger. The tail of the tiger is still >>>>>> the tiger, but perhaps a more manageable >>>>>> one than to grab its head. >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps this is why Vygotskians just call >>>>>> themselves Vygotskians to align >>>>>> themselves with the source of the first >>>>>> theories rather than to later conceptions >>>>>> and other developments (i.e. Leontiev, >>>>>> etc). Just thinking out loud. >>>>>> >>>>>> Another argument is that if we want to be >>>>>> all inclusive, then we have to include >>>>>> tool-use, as it's not the social, the >>>>>> culture, and the history, but also the >>>>>> language and tools used. I realize some >>>>>> practitioners would say that language is >>>>>> no different than a tool, but I feel >>>>>> language is different, even though it may >>>>>> have a similar cognitive response in the >>>>>> mind as would using a tool. >>>>>> >>>>>> Activity suggests tool use, though not >>>>>> always. Consider dance, or storytelling, >>>>>> or going for a walk. >>>>>> >>>>>> How about: >>>>>> socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical >>>>>> activity theory??? >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes! I am writing this a little tongue in >>>>>> cheek. I hope you do not mind. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Annalsia >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> on behalf of David Kellogg >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:14 PM >>>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural >>>>>> psychology" ? >>>>>> >>>>>> *? [EXTERNAL]* >>>>>> >>>>>> It's a very domain-specific umbrella, >>>>>> like those cane-brollies that go with a >>>>>> bowler. "Sociocultural" is strongly >>>>>> preferred used in second language >>>>>> acquisition, thanks to the influence of >>>>>> Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf and Matthew >>>>>> Poehner; I have never seen "cultural >>>>>> historical" used in this literature. But >>>>>> "cultural-historical" is similarly >>>>>> preferred in psychology and anthropology, >>>>>> thanks to the influence of J.V. Wertsch, >>>>>> Mike Cole,?Martin Packer and Andy >>>>>> Blunden;?that's really why we are having >>>>>> this discussion on what "socio-cultural" >>>>>> might mean on a list largely populated by >>>>>> roving?psychologists and nomadic >>>>>> anthropologues. >>>>>> >>>>>> Interestingly, the Francophones prefer >>>>>> "historico-cultural", using the argument >>>>>> that you can understand the process >>>>>> without the product but not the product >>>>>> without the process. I stopped using >>>>>> "sociocultural" because I thought it was >>>>>> redundant, but now I am really not sure >>>>>> of this: it seems to me that the >>>>>> relationship is a similar one--you can >>>>>> study society as process without studying >>>>>> its cultural product (e.g. as >>>>>> demographics, economics, statistics) but >>>>>> you can't really study culture without >>>>>> some understanding of the process of its >>>>>> formation. >>>>>> >>>>>> There was a similar disagreement in >>>>>> systemic functional linguistics between >>>>>> Halliday and Jim Martin over the term >>>>>> "socio-semiotic". Martin said that it was >>>>>> redundant, because there couldn't be any >>>>>> semiotic without society.?Halliday rather >>>>>> flippantly replied that ants had a >>>>>> society without a semiotics, and at the >>>>>> time it seemed to me that?this was a?non >>>>>> sequitur,?first of all because ants don't >>>>>> really have a society in our?sense >>>>>> (precisely because there is no such thing >>>>>> as an ant history separate from >>>>>> phylogenesis on the one hand and >>>>>> ontogenesis on the other) and secondly >>>>>> because ants most definitely do have a >>>>>> semiotics, albeit one based on chemistry >>>>>> and not perception as ours is. >>>>>> >>>>>> It seems to me, in retrospect, that the >>>>>> relationship between the semiotic and the >>>>>> social is much more like the relationship >>>>>> between the social and the biological, or >>>>>> even the biological and the chemical. The >>>>>> semiotic is a certain level of >>>>>> organization that the social has, but >>>>>> there are other?levels, just as biology >>>>>> is a certain kind of chemical >>>>>> organization which does not exclude >>>>>> other, nonbiological ways organizing >>>>>> chemicals, and?chemistry is a kind of >>>>>> physical organization which doesn't >>>>>> exclude sub-chemical organizations. >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps we can think of the relationship >>>>>> between culture and society in the same way? >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>>> >>>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: >>>>>> A manual and a manifesto. >>>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!Q5tqqNq9av_0Mgbytqiz_f32wma6JhRq615p-kbq2d-npu-bmGh8nAejEW6OpobiNehdxg$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: >>>>>> /L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ >>>>>> /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Q5tqqNq9av_0Mgbytqiz_f32wma6JhRq615p-kbq2d-npu-bmGh8nAejEW6OpoZPLX5WDQ$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David H >>>>>> Kirshner >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> 4. As an umbrella term for any >>>>>> sociogenetic approach. >>>>>> >>>>>> Isn?t that its current usage? >>>>>> >>>>>> David >>>>>> >>>>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> *On Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar >>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM >>>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, >>>>>> Activity >>>>> > >>>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: >>>>>> "sociocultural psychology" ? >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Andy, and VO's, >>>>>> >>>>>> What fascinates me is that the word >>>>>> "sociocultural" has a lot of >>>>>> different facets in terms of how the >>>>>> word was used in different contexts. >>>>>> It seems there are three I've been >>>>>> able to pick out. >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. as a derisive term in early >>>>>> Soviet history. >>>>>> 2. as an empowering term from Latin >>>>>> American voices. >>>>>> 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist >>>>>> "brand" at the height of the Cold >>>>>> War in the US. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not sure if I've done justice in >>>>>> the manner that I've represented >>>>>> that, but it is a well-intended >>>>>> attempt. Are there others? >>>>>> >>>>>> What I don't understand fully is >>>>>> whether there must be ONE explanation >>>>>> how the term came to be, or ONE >>>>>> definition of what it actually means. >>>>>> Can't it be polysemantic? >>>>>> polycontextual? >>>>>> >>>>>> If that is what's happening, then it >>>>>> makes sense that there would be an >>>>>> ongoing controversy about which one >>>>>> is the right definition or reason for >>>>>> not using it, depending on the >>>>>> interlocutor. >>>>>> >>>>>> If we are to talk about who used the >>>>>> term first, and that's where the >>>>>> value/authority holds, then all that >>>>>> tells us is that for those who value >>>>>> who used the term first. that's where >>>>>> the authority is. >>>>>> >>>>>> If we talk about the emotional >>>>>> attachment of the word as it is used >>>>>> in context and that's where the >>>>>> value/authority holds, then that >>>>>> tells us for those who value the most >>>>>> personal attachment to the word, >>>>>> that's where the authority is. >>>>>> >>>>>> If we talk about how the word was >>>>>> used functionally, where the >>>>>> value/authority holds in its >>>>>> efficacy, then all that tells is that >>>>>> for those who value whether the word >>>>>> works or not, that's where the >>>>>> authority is. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not sure one can put any of one >>>>>> these over the other two (or if there >>>>>> are more than that, if there are >>>>>> more). All we can say I suppose is >>>>>> whether in a particular context is >>>>>> the word "sociocultural" appropriate >>>>>> or not? >>>>>> >>>>>> I do find that this debate has begun >>>>>> to have its own life, this debate >>>>>> over the use of a word. I've begun >>>>>> doubt it will ever cease. >>>>>> >>>>>> One day the discussion will be how >>>>>> one used to debate about the term, >>>>>> first everyone was this way about the >>>>>> word, than they were that way about >>>>>> the word, and many large camps were >>>>>> formed in XXXX year to say why the >>>>>> word should not be used, but then X >>>>>> years later other large camps formed >>>>>> to say it is fine to use the word. I >>>>>> suppose it will only be when the >>>>>> debate ceases will it come to pass >>>>>> that the debate will be forgotten. >>>>>> But will that cessation solidify the >>>>>> use or non-use of the word? >>>>>> >>>>>> I understand the reasons for saying >>>>>> "cultural psychology." But for those >>>>>> swimming in a culture where >>>>>> behaviorism is considered the soul of >>>>>> psychology, adding "cultural" becomes >>>>>> a sad necessity. Even then, that >>>>>> necessity only depends upon how one >>>>>> sees culture, as either as an >>>>>> additive, an integral ingredient of >>>>>> psychology, or its basis. I believe >>>>>> I've read on the list that one should >>>>>> be able to say "psychology" and just >>>>>> *know* that it includes culture. I >>>>>> don't think we are there yet. >>>>>> >>>>>> Then that would be my argument to use >>>>>> "sociocultural" to understand it >>>>>> includes history. CHAT is sort of a >>>>>> defensive term (well, it is an >>>>>> acronym). But then... it leaves out >>>>>> "social" and is that OK? We certainly >>>>>> should not say sociocultural >>>>>> historical activity theory because >>>>>> that acronym is very unfulfilling. >>>>>> What is nice about CHAT though is >>>>>> that to chat is an activity of >>>>>> speech, and there is a implied >>>>>> meaning that also pertains to >>>>>> Vygotskian theories, and therefore >>>>>> meaningful. >>>>>> >>>>>> In a sense, it's not the meaning that >>>>>> we are arguing over, but how the >>>>>> limitations of our particular >>>>>> language fails to convey a meaning >>>>>> with such precision that it thereby >>>>>> to parses away any other >>>>>> inappropriate meaning. I'm just not >>>>>> sure that the project is one that can >>>>>> be achieved successfully, even if it >>>>>> succeeds for an interim. >>>>>> >>>>>> At the same time I can see why story >>>>>> of the elephant and the blind men >>>>>> also have a part to play in our >>>>>> understandings and assumptions. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Annalisa >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> on behalf of Andy Blunden >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM >>>>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: >>>>>> "sociocultural psychology" ? >>>>>> >>>>>> *[EXTERNAL]* >>>>>> >>>>>> Annalisa, I have only been talking >>>>>> and writing about Vygotsky and co. >>>>>> since about 2000 and have been openly >>>>>> Marxist since the 1960s (indeed, >>>>>> Vygotsky is core to how I understand >>>>>> Marx) and never had any reason not to >>>>>> be. But it is true that when Mike >>>>>> first went to Moscow, it was at the >>>>>> height of the Cold War, and when he >>>>>> and others first brought Vygotsky's >>>>>> ideas to the USA, there was a lot of >>>>>> resistance to their Marxist content. >>>>>> I think the naming issue only arose >>>>>> as Vygotsky and the others began to >>>>>> build a real following. The issues >>>>>> with the choice of name change over >>>>>> the years, as you say. I prefer" >>>>>> CHAT," but sometimes I use "Cultural >>>>>> Psychology" and sometimes I use >>>>>> "Activity Theory" depending on the >>>>>> context. >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>> >>>>>> Home Page >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa >>>>>> Aguilar wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy, et al, >>>>>> >>>>>> I sort of came to this a little >>>>>> late in the thread, but I can >>>>>> offer that Vera John-Steiner >>>>>> didn't mind "sociocultural" to >>>>>> describe Vygotskian theory, but >>>>>> as I learn more about the word >>>>>> (thank you Mike), I can see how >>>>>> once a word is utilized with >>>>>> intent of derision, it's hard for >>>>>> the association to be broken. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think it's that way with words >>>>>> all the time coming and going out >>>>>> of favor, or meanings shifting, >>>>>> like the game of telephone, but >>>>>> across generations and cultures. >>>>>> >>>>>> Might I contribute to the >>>>>> discussion by asking whether the >>>>>> use of "sociocultural" was also a >>>>>> means of making the theories more >>>>>> available in the West (at least >>>>>> in the US). It seems there was >>>>>> redscare (you are welcome read >>>>>> the double entendre: "red scare" >>>>>> or "reds care", as you like) >>>>>> prevalent, and wouldn't it be >>>>>> useful to remove the Marxist >>>>>> "brand" to access the actual >>>>>> theories on child development? In >>>>>> other words, to depoliticize the >>>>>> science? >>>>>> >>>>>> I had been a proponent of the use >>>>>> of the word, but as time passes, >>>>>> I can see its problems. >>>>>> >>>>>> For me, I had preferred the word >>>>>> because historical was always a >>>>>> given for me. In concern of the >>>>>> here and now, the real difficulty >>>>>> I had thought was understanding >>>>>> the social- how interactions >>>>>> between the child and the >>>>>> caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable >>>>>> peer and the -cultural, how the >>>>>> culture impacts thought, those >>>>>> things are more of the micro >>>>>> level, but also sociocultural, >>>>>> how the two also can interact and >>>>>> influence one another and that >>>>>> combined bears its own signature >>>>>> on the mind and its development. >>>>>> As far as History (capital H) >>>>>> that is sort of difficult to >>>>>> measure when we are talking about >>>>>> child development as there is >>>>>> very little history that a child >>>>>> has, unless we are talking about >>>>>> genetics, I suppose. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now? I'm fairly agnostic about >>>>>> the term. I respect and am >>>>>> enriched by the discourse in >>>>>> which we now we find ourselves >>>>>> immersed about it so thanks to >>>>>> all for this. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Annalisa >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> on behalf of Andy Blunden >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 14, 2020 >>>>>> 7:24 PM >>>>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >> -- >> >> >> "How does newness come into the world? How is it >> born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is >> it made?" Salman Rushdie >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Q5tqqNq9av_0Mgbytqiz_f32wma6JhRq615p-kbq2d-npu-bmGh8nAejEW6Opob8s_JmJg$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu >> . >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu >> . >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200523/3518ed9a/attachment.html From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Sat May 23 03:24:40 2020 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 11:24:40 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello once more Annalisa Our difference of approach to and understanding of the modern state and the production of social life obviously admits of no meeting point as far as I read your astonishingly wide-ranging and impassioned response. Without the simplicity of my reply intending to signal a facile sarcasm, I must bluntly state that I begin from the acceptance that nefarious or not, 'They', in the sense of government and corporations, do have the power to control and shape the organisation of social life. We can, if enough socio-political pressure can be brought to bear through social movements, rebellions, revolts, shift certain aspects of that fashioning of our lives. But at present, the relationship of wage slavery imposed by Capital ,and the society shaped by that relationship, are dominant throughout the life of our planet. Sad at such an impasse, since we both wish the best for humanity Tom On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 21:46, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Tom, and VO's of XMCA > > Concerning your questions about our new normal now that COVID19 is with us > and here to stay, I think your guess is as good as anyone's. I am not sure > if we as humans have ever been burdened with such an event as this, and at > the same time are able to watch the unfolding events and respond (or not > respond if you are a stable genius) quickly from the feedback of data, > news, anecdotes, and other forms of perception of how the virus is > impacting us. > > What is worth remembering as well, is that epidemiologists have been > warning us for decades that a pandemic was a clear an present danger to the > way we live and negotiate the modern world. We see in sensurround how right > they were. > > As I consider your question, I have to think that people mow might be > sorted into two classes, well at least two classes: > > > 1. People who seem to think the virus is just another flu and once we > find a vaccine, all will return to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December > Holiday or pre-pandemic time you mark your calendar as before the pandemic > hit, which of course depends upon where on the earth you are located). > 2. People who seem to think the virus has changed us and there will > never be going back to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday...) > > I suspect the Americans of the neo-conservative persuasion who have been > motivated to protest health order social distancing believe that not only > this is a conspiracy to control fredom-loving people, but that we should > return to Christmas 2019 as soon as possible, they are of Cohort 1. > > I think Cohort 2 are going to be people who take in the facts and the data > and are actively attempting to sort out where do we go from here. I feel > confident you are in Cohort 2, as ar most people on this list. > > Now, as Carol M has pointed out, in a lot of ways our discussion about > online learning is a first world concern, for those who have an internet > connection that is ubiquitous not only at home, but at school, work, on the > bus, on planes, in cafes, and other public gathering spaces, like city > halls, or town squares. That's another reason why it's hard to take Klein > seriously, in terms of *tone*. > > I recall reading something from George Lakoff when he indicates that there > is a liberal stance that seems to believe that if one objects loudly enough > with "sky is falling" rhetoric and then feed out various data, that using > this strategy the audience will become motivated to protest in the streets, > write letters to congress, run for office, or whatever civil action must be > done, and with alacrity. It doesn't work. I do not think being against > anything ever "works." I think only being for something works. > > Let's look at Klein's article as an example. If she were to be > rhetorically successful she would outline the problem she identifies (Mr. > Schmidt goes to Washington), but instead of all that is wrong, talk about > what can be right. Not to say she should agree with Mr. Schmidt and his > ways. > > I feel her article could be a lot heavier on what works with education and > how to enhance that further. She does mention how money should b used more > for school nurses, smaller classrooms, etc. This is where she could have > expanded beautifully into a viable solution to spark everyone's > imaginations. But she didn't do that. She is more motivated it seems to > mark Mr. Schmidt and his technological minions to masterminding a New World > Order that will steal our souls and tether us to the Matrix from now until > the end of time. > > I also feel she would have been more conducive to discourse by writing an > open letter to Cuomo and Schmidt, and to invite a response. This is also > leading by example to cultivate democratic processes that are near and dear > to all of us. Instead she "otherfies" them, and this is also not useful. > And I am not saying that as a stance to defend Mr. Schmidt or Gov Cuomo, in > any way. > > So back to your question, I do not think that there is any way we will be > extricated from this reality of COVID 19. We will have to pick our stones > across the river carefully so that none of us slips and is carried down the > rapids. I feel it is more useful to say we are a family of one kind, and > all of us have to stay together to make it across. And that all of us > deserves a life jacket as a measure of survival because not all of us will > get to the other side without getting wet, or falling in. > > The tension between CEOs and their contempt for the slow-food of democracy > is well known. If only they could persuade all of us to eat fast food, then > they could take over the world as the next McDonalds, in terms of > technological vision, whatever a McDonalds would look like on a screen, as > an app, whathaveyou. > > Unfortunately what seems to elude folks who have not worked in tech, or > those who see tech as just another new Ford in the garage, is that > technology is always in flux. There is always development of new hardware > that needs new software written to use it, so there is a double-quicksand > of events upon which technology is founded (and funded) upon. That's what > Moore's Law is about. > > Technology in order to "be itself" must always move fleetingly, like the > shark must to breathe. Technology will never be able to last the halls of > government. For that reason, any rendition of technology in government (and > school systems for that matter) will be like bad combovers that are meant > to convince us that we are now more attractive and appealing (not meaning > to offend those who live by their combovers...) > > Where I feel technology could best serve us is to help create grassroots > democracy tools, to support what we know is possible and could even > threaten the basis for representative democracy and bring it closer to a > straight agora democracy. > > Some might call this anarchy, and I could argue along the lines of David > Graeber that anarchy is a more pure form of democracy practiced in all > "primitive" or "ancient" cultures, it's not a perfect fit, and I intend to > make that reference loosely. My point is to say there should be what David > K calls involution of what government is, to what government was, and to > supplant that, or rather what causes those parts to be pushed to the > margins is to imagine a government where there is mor connection to > agora-like venues where one person speaking in a Zoom-like frame is of > equal stature of any other person speaking in the frame. One can sort of > imagine this with the Zoom-empowered senate hearings which I watched for a > while on the NYT front page. It was really strange to me. I suppose the > danger is that we get to hear Sally Mc? from Arizona use her time to blame > the Chinese for the virus, etc, for more time that we would like. But > that's democracy. > > So one fallout could be that grade-school kids and their resulting > perezhivanie from Zoom-based classrooms, will adopt the tool for political > discussions as adults. Might that be a good thing? > > Maybe. > > At the same time, do you remember a book that came out in the mid90s > called "Silicon Snake Oil"? This is yet another phenomenon of technology, > that people oozing charisma will claw their way to the microphone and pitch > an idea about the next vaporware, who will then make unsubstantiated > promises and claims directed to feed our fantasies and dreams, and who will > then abscond with all the money, only to request not to look at the man > behind the green curtain, or if pulled by the ear into a senate hearing > will say "I thought it was a good idea at the time." etc. > > I think that is the view of Klein about all technology, and there are > merits in that, but there are also other ways to think about it. > > This article about Marc Benioff in Wired recently discusses about the > social entrepreneurship of his wealth: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.wired.com/story/gospel-of-wealth-according-to-marc-benioff/__;!!Mih3wA!TMPkWIkLN8q6WMQBb65Y0p6fhSrK8FdZoNGpCGwGbKxJH9g_GgkhLEuijDZ9pBVFRtBLRQ$ > > Who by they way now owns the magazine Time, the way Jeff Bezos bought the > WaPo, and Lauren Jobs bought The Altlantic, and Pierre Omidyar funded The > Intercept. > > I do invite, as much as you can stomach, anyway, for any educators or > other members of our vibrant list to make regular reading of Wired > Magazine, which is a far more interesting read on technology than something > like Fast Company. I encourage this reading, if only to know the enemy, as > it were. Wired articles are far more nuanced and sophisticated than when > the magazine first got off the ground in the early 90s. I find reading it > helps to connect some dots for those who do not consume technology culture > all the time. Just pick and choose what you are curious about. > > We must become familiar with the vernacular of technology if we want a > hand in the game of how it plays in education, our stomping grounds. This > will require effort on our part. That is not to say we must adopt all the > shiny new toys. But we can be like a Consumer Report for education, and > evaluate and measure the good the bad and the ugly of technology and its > use in the edu sphere. > > We cannot sit on our laurels and wait for someone else to decide for us > how technology will be deployed. That stance is what the mythology of > inevitable technology rests and self-perpetuates. > > We must be more tech literate, and we must be the first to coin words and > how they manifest in edu venues. What works what doesn't. I don't see any > other way to fight back and to keep control of the educational narrative, > where of course we want to hardwire zopeds, manifest and lead critical and > nourishing perezhivanie, and model by example sterling mediated learning > experiences for students and teachers. > > What other projects can there be? > > For me, this is "fighting back" because it makes the sort of shark-like > entrepreneur recede for a time (as they will always be looking for a way > into edu's tax coffers), because we are successful getting education right. > > I do not accept that entreprenuership is what took the sanctity from > teaching and learning. But that's an argument to be made. I feel it is only > one side of the argument. > > Once I had an male acquaintance tell me that one reason women are in > inferior roles is because they let this happen to them. As you might > imagine, I had a real hard time with that argument and I had to clench my > jaw to now spew various vitriol upon him. But after I thought about it, in > a narrow sense he is not wrong because not it is true that enough women in > history identified the value to struggle for rights even if they would not > see equality in their own lifetimes. There are many explanations for why > that did not happen, that are not facile to depict. But then I also had to > think of how much women's struggles have succeeded because they did decide > to not let this happen to them anymore. But now women are learning in the > US, anyway, that nothing fought for is a permanent fixture, and so we must > become resigned to the perpetual struggle for equality, as all marginalized > people must. > > So now I direct this to our context of education in the venue of online > learning. This is not an easy question, and it is not intended to > trivialize the work and efforts of many on this list, but it is instead a > question of inner reflection, or a taking of inventory of one's own life: > > How much has each of you done to take measure and fight for meaningful > education in the classroom? > > Could you have done more? Can you do more? > > Then the same for asking yourself how have you integrated technology > appropriately into your learning methods and general perezhivanie. > > I hope this might provide some further food for thought concerning > preservation on the sanctity of learning and instruction in the classroom. > > So all this is to reply to you Tom, that in short, the nefarious They can > only take control if we let them. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ps please excuse all typos, which are all made on my own. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 11:26 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Hi Annalisa > > Thank you for providing the details of your deep and committed background > in distance / online learning. Mine is obviously shallow, which must have > triggered you and 'Robsub' somewhat. > > But my questioning is in the newer context of the Covid19 threats to > global society and the solutions being sought to extricate us from them. > > Governor Cuomo's conversation with Schmidt to examine solutions to the > problems of present coping and future emergence from the pandemic is > understandable. Two persons with power and a need to act, discuss what > technology (in its widest hard- and software aspects) has to offer. > > In a democracy we can assess the solutions they propose and shape them to > what we know to be as near to optimal for our society as possible. Your > assertion of the efficacy of our agency which Klein seems to deny, > with her politico-economic caveats. > > Schmidt has an evangelism for the potential of technology, but expressed > with such restraint - he's no zealot. He also, in the video of the ECNY > conversation with Marie-Josee Kravis, sees the lack of 'simplicity' in the > three-tier democratic system of the US. He is a CEO with an organisation > geared to problem-analysis, solution choices, and operational capability > which can be put into action without delaying debate. He expressed no > hostility to 'democracy' but as he said, it does not work simply. > > Klein reminds us to be wary if not alarmed, not because she is despairing > (I believe), but because that direct entrepreneurial drive has profit > making as its unavoidable aim. Whatever Schmidt's humanistic feelings, if > profit doesn't result from his and his companies actions, they will not > survive. That competitive drive is also present in his aspirations for > international dominance (see his remarks on the rise of China's technology). > > So far, the sort of distance / online learning you have worked on, has > been nested in the context of family and (normal) school life. That > normality had implicit in it human values, customs and structures, whatever > differences of class, race, gender and culture were present. The melding of > state and enterprise in a newly-developing novel (5G?)high-tech 'solution' > to mediating education presents a situation which need to be examined I > believe. And my query, in that 'Kleinian' context was looking for answers > from those, like yourself, with wide experience of previous technological > 'answers' and their implications for the results within the learner. > > I affirm, along with you, the irrepressible resistance and sheer > cantankerousness we humans bring to unjust situations. But such fighting > back will often be unsuccessful in its aims, when the need to reduce labour > time with new technology is driving events - Luddism and machine looms? Our > human drive to change and adapt, our use of our agency to create or alter > our lives must not be suppressed. But what Klein is reminding us of is just > how tilted is the balance of power - the power of the state and behind it, > the drive from the vast corporate world, for profit. Our agency is so often > undone by the arbitrary intervention of those forces. > > Those are the forces which have destroyed what you name the 'sanctity' of > teaching and learning. I would name it the basic need for those goals, but > we share it. With the need to re-invigorate just such a precious resource, > we will continue to fight like hell. Despite their mere humanness, > corporations and states at present have greater knowledge and power than > 'mere' citizens. My intervention in xmca discussion was really to say > "They're looking to take even more control of daily life. > Within academia, you can analyse how they are making such changes happen > and continue to alert the rest of us, if you fear the consequences of > their changes." > > Best wishes > Tom > > On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 22:29, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? > > Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We > looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, > once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always > a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed > by SL's prospects. > > In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, > I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that > students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one > another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological > fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would > ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. > > Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like > looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. > Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. > > What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, > which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open > space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was > perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. > > I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators > already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online > learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers > during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of > associations of place with learning. > > In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the > AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, > drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in > order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye > coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing > abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and > constrain learning to books. > > We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We > must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. > > I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the > situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of > learning. > > I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out > of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for > quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged > learning venues . Not with grade school. > > I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for > grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally > studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, > although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon > it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess > that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because > parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. > > I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, > nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. > > What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is > childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own > families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!TMPkWIkLN8q6WMQBb65Y0p6fhSrK8FdZoNGpCGwGbKxJH9g_GgkhLEuijDZ9pBUlEC4pXw$ > > > It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, > not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may > also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we > must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. > > It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom > to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the > classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. > > Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the > AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he > could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that > education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People > then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We > see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the > case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of > learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. > > If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to > already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support > well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be > integrated with existing models. > > If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way > to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money > will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. > > One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online > learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may > also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or > riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and > surveillance is a constructive combination. > > There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more > appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet > words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must > better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite > behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown > interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from > what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. > > This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a > mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and > introspection, I will never accept that reality. > > To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say > "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers > and pins." > > I just do not believe this narrative. > > We cannot give up. > > Is there a fight ahead? Yes. > > Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most > definitely, yes. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Hello Annalisa > Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost > none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of > human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour > acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. > > - What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment > created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the > widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such > learning takes place?'. > - What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes > for the *perezhivanie *of the learner, which shapes her social being > and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', > 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? > > Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet > listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what > is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. > I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is > within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. > > Kind regards > Tom > > > On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hello Tom, > > Thank you for posting the link. > > I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly > dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is > not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking > pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended > into our lives. > > I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It > reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and > resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has > become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. > > At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power > in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. > > Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill > Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as > the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment > facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include > Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding > flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his > billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). > > I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage > agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace > illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the > drug wars. These efforts are working. > > Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem > I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. > > She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID > (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control > the world. > > Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of > the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. > Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is > the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to > deliberate the way forward. > > As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to > control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, > or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in > ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be > construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency > to decide how to use our tools. > > Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt > will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled > children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional > online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. > > So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply > does not hold water for me. > > I hope this might be a little encouraging. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Hello Tom Richardson > This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat > Project" that has just finished its > planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human > development, and theories of "Development > in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by > the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. > Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to > actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. > The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of > essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. > In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most > dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced > a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most > members of this discussion over the years, > is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations > have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting > a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). > > We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social > science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp > speed and its invisible. > > Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about > for 100 years. > Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing > working models of effective practices that do NOT > assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. > > Thanks for asking. > mike > > > > On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > > Greetings Xmca-ers > I would like to raise a question. > In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major > questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, > democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international > competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan > approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to > these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been > happening recently: > > > "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks > after that article appeared, he described > the > ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the > country had been forced to cobble together during this public health > emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. > > The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids > learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote > and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will > help kids learn better.? " > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!TMPkWIkLN8q6WMQBb65Y0p6fhSrK8FdZoNGpCGwGbKxJH9g_GgkhLEuijDZ9pBW2GxiOqw$ > > > > Just asking > Tom Richardson > Middlesbrough UK > > > > -- > > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, > translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. > For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net > > . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200523/ad07b014/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sat May 23 12:54:21 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 19:54:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> <36147263-58ba-6908-ce60-bc367719772e@marxists.org> <71876107-fad8-3a23-2bd9-35d13d923268@marxists.org> <76d5fed9-4397-5cf6-aed4-d537df05af17@marxists.org> , Message-ID: Hi David and Andy, When I read this: "b) Chiaroscuro paintings are equally both dark and light in Caravaggio's time and in our own." I would have interpreted this to mean that paintings are 50% dark and 50% light. Not 100% dark and 100% light. I suppose this depends upon where one places the parentheses. I can't remember exactly how to diagram sentences, and I would be difficult for me to do that here in an email client, but what of this: (Chiaroscura (paintings)) are (equally both) ((dark) and (light)) (in (Carraviagio's (time)) and (in (our (own [time]))). or (Chiaroscuro (paintings)) are (equally (both ((dark) and (light))) (in Caravaggio's (time)) and (in (our own ([time]))). I would never have presumed something could be 100% X and 100% Y unless we were talking about two separate, but joined, entities. In that case I'd interpret this to mean that the definition of Chiaroscuro paintings no matter what historical period have two types, what might be called white paintings and what might be called black paintings. Say, were there an opposite of Film Noir, called Film Blanc. And these were related paintings because of similar painting methods and composition, and even subject matter, but one is predominantly dark the other predominantly white. Of course nothing like this does exist in Art History, but it is conceivable to discuss painting genres in just this way. --- Then, I also wanted to point out that psychological can be biological (as in what the brain and nervous system, etc does to take in perceptual data, and respond accordingly, such as with walking, balancing a cup in one's hand not to spill the contents, or vigilance to protect one's children while walking through a crowded airport). This include the limbic system, yes? And psychological can be introspective (I'm not sure whether it is the proper word, forgive me, but I mean the subjective experience of the person who retrieves memories, lays down neuroses to compensate from past traumas, enjoy fantasies or imaginations, or simply possesses a more unobstructed sense of self (than a less unobstructed sense)). If one can accept this dualism in the human body it is possible for experience to be 100% mediated and 100% unmediated, depending upon which system is being activated and how the two are working in tandem or separately, or whether one is overpowering the other. Isn't it so? Also, I have a curious question to ask. What is the dividing line between higher function and lower function? Are there classifications? Is this scenario possible: In Subject A there are 20 lower functions and 5 higher functions In Subject B there are 20 lower functions and 20 higher functions In Subject C there are 10 lower functions and 20 higher functions. In Subject D there are 5 lower functions and 5 lower functions Taking age out of the equation, in that we suppose they are all the same age, and also for control, they have similar environments, caregiving, nutrition, and education, etc. I would ask this: Does a lower function imply a corresponding higher function? In that lower function 1x will in time with proper environmental inputs develop into the higher function 1X? Or can 2 lower functions only produce 1 higher function? Or can 3 lower function produce in varying proportions 5-8 higher functions. Such as function 1ab + 2cd creates function 1ac, 2ac, 1bd, 2abd, 1bcd, 2ad, 1ad, etc. In Subject A, can we assume that there is potential to develop 15 (or more) additional functions in the subject's future? In Subject B, can we assume that there can be still further development beyond 20 higher functions that grow out from the original 20 lower ones? In Subject C, can we assume that superior plasticity has afforded "more" development from less available resources, such as a person with a disabiilty (like blindness, deafness) has developed additional higher functions most others would never develop, say a keen sense of smell, haptic ability, or visual acuity? In Subject D, can we assume that no further development can occur because there is not enough "material" present in the lower functions for any extended development into higher functions, such as an infant suffering from brain asphyxiation during birth. Just trying to understand how one is slicing the orange, or peeling it, etc. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Friday, May 22, 2020 3:39 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] But this is not the exact quote. It is only a translation. The exact quote is this: ("...) da? es nichts gibt, nichts im Himmel oder in der Natur oder im Geiste oder wo es sei, was nicht ebenso die Unmittelbarkeit enth?lt als die Vermittlung, so da? sich diese beiden Bestimmungen als ungetrennt und untrennbar und jener Gegensatz sich als ein Nichtiges zeigt." (There is nothing given, neither in heaven nor in nature nor in mind nor in wherever it may be, which is not equally the unmediated contain alongside the mediated, so that both of these two determinations (i.e. determining something as unmediated or as mediated--DK) prove to be inseparable and inextricable, and their contrast (or their opposition--DK) proves nul." What's the difference between the exact quote and the translation? As I pointed out to Andy, the translation puts "equally" and "both" in the same clause, while the original German has them in two different clauses. Compare: a) Chiaroscuro paintings are both dark and light, and this was equally true for Caravaggio as for us. b) Chiaroscuro paintings are equally both dark and light in Caravaggio's time and in our own. Statement a) is true enough, although as Mike points out it is the beginning of a concrete genetic analysis and not the end. But statement b) is utterly false: it puts an end to all genetic analysis and abolishes development altogether. It says, uselessly, that all paintings are 100% dark and 100% light and so the only genetic analysis possible is one of changing self-consciousness, either in the painter or the viewer. This is an idealist dialectic, and it is certainly not a historical one. Similarly, it is one thing to say that all psychological functions are both mediated and unmediated, and this is equally true for lower functions as it is for higher functions. For example, when I look at a painting by Caravaggio or a film by Derek Jarman, the rod cells in my retina and my optic nerve are mediating the experience as well as my cerebral cortex and my biographical knowledge of Caravaggio. But it's very different to say that all psychological functions are equally both mediated and unmediated, or 100% mediated and 100% unmediated. In addition to the arithmetical absurdinty, this does not allow me to distinguish between lower and higher psychological functions. (And I do think this is how Andy gets his notion that when two things are different we cannot say that one is more developed than the other. Yet higher psychological functions do indeed presuppose lower functions but not the other way around. Andy calls this difference and not development; I call it equally both difference and development.) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!S83d-4RyHu8U65dYlKgo6WAIOPqvRN5m9WU72IiOFtpUlZuheOrmsEb4dFyYYDnFvopoOw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!S83d-4RyHu8U65dYlKgo6WAIOPqvRN5m9WU72IiOFtpUlZuheOrmsEb4dFyYYDlMEV2pGw$ On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 2:13 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: And it is worth noting that Hegel wrote this in the 1810s simply on the basis of logical criticism of Kant and Jacobi (a contemporary sharing some views with Descartes). And yet it took more than a century (if I'm not mistaken) to make its way into hard science. Here's how he explains it: ? 66 That said, we continue to stand by the position that immediate knowing is to be taken as a fact. With this, however, the consideration is directed towards the field of experience, to a psychological phenomenon. ? In this respect, it should be noted that it is one of the most common experiences that truths (which one knows very well to be the result of the most intricate and highly mediated considerations) present themselves immediately in the consciousness of someone conversant with such knowledge. Like everybody else who has been trained in a science, the mathematician immediately has at his fingertips solutions to which a very complicated analysis has led. Every educated person has immediately present in his or her knowing a host of universal viewpoints and principles that have resulted only from repeated reflection and long life experience. The facility we have achieved in any sphere of knowing, also in fine art, in technical dexterity, consists precisely in having those sorts of familiarity, those kinds of activity immediately present in one?s consciousness in the case at hand, indeed, even in an activity directed outwards and in one?s limbs. ? In all these cases the immediacy of knowing does not only not exclude its mediation; to the contrary, they are so connected that immediate knowing is even the product and result of knowing that has been mediated. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 22/05/2020 1:59 pm, mike cole wrote: Both HAVE TO BE present at once, Andy or there is no perception. Mike On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 8:55 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Yes, last week in our Hegel Reading Group we read the section in the Shorter Logic, following his critiques of Kant and Descartes, Hegel explains how thought is both immediate and mediated, and even over Zoom I could see the clouds gradually receding from my young students' eyes. All of a sudden the whole fruitless argument between scepticism and dogmatism, relativism and historicism, fell away. The most difficult thing to grasp was how perception was not just immediate and mediated, but both were essentially present in the same moment, how without the cultural training of the senses the brain could not make any sense at all of the nervous stimulation of the organs of sight, etc. Andy PS. the exact quote from Hegel is: "there is nothing, nothing in heaven, or in nature or in mind or anywhere else which does not equally contain both immediacy and mediation" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/hl/hlbegin.htm*0092__;Iw!!Mih3wA!S83d-4RyHu8U65dYlKgo6WAIOPqvRN5m9WU72IiOFtpUlZuheOrmsEb4dFyYYDkbWlFsLg$ ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 22/05/2020 9:20 am, mike cole wrote: This is a point I have struggled to make for many years, Andy. I didn't know I was quoting Hegel: Hegel: 'Everything is both immediate and mediated." The challenge is to rise to the concrete with this abstraction or its just la la la. mike On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 6:42 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Of course, Annalisa, I agree that Science is a moral practice, but that is not what is at issue here. Two issues concern me with what you have said: (1) the question of "who decides?" and (2) the quantification of development as in "more evolved" bringing with it the implication of moral value attached to development. (1) The discovery of the "social construction of reality" was an achievement of the Left, the progressives, with people like the Critical Psychologists, the theorists of postmodernism and post-structural feminists in the 1970s an 80s, who exposed how taken-for-granted facts along with the truths of Science were on closer inspection ideological products of dominant social groups. Of course, how reality is seen is an inseparable part of how reality is. This insight led to a range of powerful theoretical and practical critiques of all aspects of society. Feminists offered an alternative way of interpreting reality as a powerful lever for changing that reality by undermining patriarchal structures and certainties. So far so good. But today, in 2020, it is not progressives who are asking "who decides?" and calling into question the very idea of truth and fact: it is Donald Trump and Rudi Giuliani. Quite honestly, this outcome was always implicit in the postmodern and poststructuralist critique. Or, could I say: "Donald Trump is a more evolved form of Judith Butler" if I thought in those terms, which I don't. Hegel takes up this problem with the maxim: "Everything is both immediate and mediated." Yes, social interests dominant in a certain social domain by definition determine what is true in that domain (though remember, every social domain is finite and has its boundaries). But that is not just by saying something about an independently existing reality which can be subject to any number of alternative representations (as Kant would have it), but rather the dominant social interests determine that reality itself. They do that both immediately and through the ideal representation of that reality which is part of that reality. You can't "decide" by a purely discursive moves - you have to change that reality. You do that with the weapons of both theoretical and practical critique. What this means is that you can study the documents (assuming you weren't personally present) of some past dispute and see with your own eyes how and why some people formulated new word meanings, and began to use these new word meaning(s) in their own communication, and thereby facilitated others from using this word meaning, and the relevant concepts, in their work, and so on. (2) As perhaps I have illustrated in my example above that there is no implication of "higher" in development. In my own education, it was Sylvia Scribner's "Uses of History" (1985) which explained this to me. "Higher" implies comparison and comparison in turn implies interchangeability. For example, if I was considering whether to emigrate to the US or France, I might consider public safety as a metric and decide that France was superior to the US and make my decision accordingly. Or, I might consider job availability for an English-speaking monoglot like me as the metric, and decide that the US was superior to France. But to decide that the US is superior to France or vice versa without the choice and the relevant metric is the moral judgment which neither you nor I find acceptable. They're just different. Understanding word meanings and concepts entails an analysis of both how the word is used in the field in question, and the history as to how it came to be so. Using the concept of "germ cell," I can work my way back and forth through an etymological field, forensically, like a detective, until I can connect the particular use of the word which emerged as a germ cell at some earlier time, in some situation where the implication of choosing that word meaning was abundantly clear to all, which allows me to see why someone felt the need (now forgotten) to introduce the word meaning and what it's absence would mean here and now, where it is already taken for granted. My apologies for the unacceptably long message, which is much against my own mores, but I don't know how to clarify these issues more succinctly. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 20/05/2020 3:51 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: Hi Andy, I suppose the issue about being on a branch of evolution has more to do with who decides what the branch is. Is it time? or is it topical? or is it based upon the interlocutors? If we say one word usage is more "evolved" than another, I suppose I am just pushing back on that because who decides what is more evolved? Forgive me, but can we ever say that if something is more "evolved" it is actually better? What do we actually mean when we say something is evolved? What if one term lasts over a longer arc of time than another usage? It seems if we use the evolution rubric, it would be considered more "fit" than the one that is changing over the same period of time. I do find it helpful that you to bring up the germ cell and how that concept pertains to analysis. That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm glad to know that to assign the parentheses does entail an ideological move, and that that can't be escaped. As long as we know what the ideology is, there is transparency in our analysis. I do think moral evaluations are worth including on all discussions, not necessarily to forbid discussions or scientific pursuits, but to use as landmarks to keep our bearings. Scientific concepts have a way of not being inclusive of contexts (i.e., lived experiences) or being grounded, right? Perhaps this is what made Vygotsky such a humane and compassionate scientific thinker is that he could understand how scientific concepts can be abusive tools for oppression. Anchoring them in lived experience shows their validity. Would this be a fair statement to you, Andy? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:23 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] Annalisa, "where does history start"? Effectively there is no starting point, and the choosing of a starting point is always an ideological move. Foucault does this to great effect. Ilyenkov deals with this in his book "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's Capital" and explains the need for what he calls the "logical-historical method." To short circuit the complexities of reading Ilyenkov, in CHAT we rely on the identification of the unit of analysis or "germ cell" to anchor our historical investigation. "Sociogenesis" is just Latin for "social development," the word I used. But if you are going to ascribe a moral value to "evolution" and then reject the concept on that basis, you'd better also reject "development" and all the "geneses" and evolution of species by natural selection and all modern biology while you are at it. Alternatively, you could choose not to ascribe moral values to scientific concepts, then the whole of science is open to you. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 18/05/2020 3:25 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: Hi Andy (& VO's), I think that that was my point, that we cannot capture everything in the word to describe the theory. And that is because of the limit of our language. Even where genesis actually is, where something starts can be difficult to pinpoint. I mean where does History actually start? These words that you mention phylogenesis, ethnogenesis, ontogenesis, are words that are like brackets of a pair of parentheses. Who decides where to put them? (And why not sociogenesis?) I'm not sure it's correct to say the choice of a word locates the user on a branch of a cultural evolutionary tree, because then that starts to mean that one speaker is more evolved than another based on the use of a word. It might be better to say that the choice of a word locates the user to a particular context. I could live with that. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:27 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] You're never going to succeed in formally capturing the full scope of the theory in a word, Annalisa. "socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory" still leave out biology and Darwin, which is a part of our theory, too. It is sometimes said that human development is the coincidence of four processes: phylogenesis (i.e., evolution of the species), cultural development (ethnogenesis, the development of technology and language), social development (one and the same culture has different classes and political groups side by side) and ontogenesis (even twins can grow up very differently according to the experiences (perezhivaniya) they go through). I tried to describe this in: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/ontogenesis.htm__;!!Mih3wA!S83d-4RyHu8U65dYlKgo6WAIOPqvRN5m9WU72IiOFtpUlZuheOrmsEb4dFyYYDl8mG3ubg$ But if you look into the history of a word what you will inevitably find is that at some point (in time and social space) there was some dispute, and this dispute was either (1) resolved by both parties agreeing and marking this agreement by the coining of a new word meaning or the dropping of a word meaning altogether, or (2) there is a split and one or both sides of the split adopt a word meaning which distinguishes them from the other side (structuralism's favourite trope) or variations on the above scenarios. So the choice of a word tends to locate the user on a branch in the cultural evolutionary tree. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 17/05/2020 11:56 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: David K & VO's What pray-tell is an anthropologue? I am divided (pun intended) about saying that sociocultural = social + culture, when they are intertwined holistically. To me, sociocultural points to a space in between, or perhaps better said to a context of interactions between individuals (who form a society) that are easily accepted among them and practiced over time. We can conceptually parse out the social and the cultural, but don't we do that because of the words and not because of the ostensible reality going on interactionally? Can we always understand something by dissecting it into parts? Again, this seems to be the limit of language, not of the conceptual context or content. In a sense to use the term "sociocultural" is to grab the tail of the tiger. The tail of the tiger is still the tiger, but perhaps a more manageable one than to grab its head. Perhaps this is why Vygotskians just call themselves Vygotskians to align themselves with the source of the first theories rather than to later conceptions and other developments (i.e. Leontiev, etc). Just thinking out loud. Another argument is that if we want to be all inclusive, then we have to include tool-use, as it's not the social, the culture, and the history, but also the language and tools used. I realize some practitioners would say that language is no different than a tool, but I feel language is different, even though it may have a similar cognitive response in the mind as would using a tool. Activity suggests tool use, though not always. Consider dance, or storytelling, or going for a walk. How about: socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory??? Yes! I am writing this a little tongue in cheek. I hope you do not mind. Kind regards, Annalsia ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:14 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] It's a very domain-specific umbrella, like those cane-brollies that go with a bowler. "Sociocultural" is strongly preferred used in second language acquisition, thanks to the influence of Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf and Matthew Poehner; I have never seen "cultural historical" used in this literature. But "cultural-historical" is similarly preferred in psychology and anthropology, thanks to the influence of J.V. Wertsch, Mike Cole, Martin Packer and Andy Blunden; that's really why we are having this discussion on what "socio-cultural" might mean on a list largely populated by roving psychologists and nomadic anthropologues. Interestingly, the Francophones prefer "historico-cultural", using the argument that you can understand the process without the product but not the product without the process. I stopped using "sociocultural" because I thought it was redundant, but now I am really not sure of this: it seems to me that the relationship is a similar one--you can study society as process without studying its cultural product (e.g. as demographics, economics, statistics) but you can't really study culture without some understanding of the process of its formation. There was a similar disagreement in systemic functional linguistics between Halliday and Jim Martin over the term "socio-semiotic". Martin said that it was redundant, because there couldn't be any semiotic without society. Halliday rather flippantly replied that ants had a society without a semiotics, and at the time it seemed to me that this was a non sequitur, first of all because ants don't really have a society in our sense (precisely because there is no such thing as an ant history separate from phylogenesis on the one hand and ontogenesis on the other) and secondly because ants most definitely do have a semiotics, albeit one based on chemistry and not perception as ours is. It seems to me, in retrospect, that the relationship between the semiotic and the social is much more like the relationship between the social and the biological, or even the biological and the chemical. The semiotic is a certain level of organization that the social has, but there are other levels, just as biology is a certain kind of chemical organization which does not exclude other, nonbiological ways organizing chemicals, and chemistry is a kind of physical organization which doesn't exclude sub-chemical organizations. Perhaps we can think of the relationship between culture and society in the same way? David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!S83d-4RyHu8U65dYlKgo6WAIOPqvRN5m9WU72IiOFtpUlZuheOrmsEb4dFyYYDnFvopoOw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!S83d-4RyHu8U65dYlKgo6WAIOPqvRN5m9WU72IiOFtpUlZuheOrmsEb4dFyYYDlMEV2pGw$ On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David H Kirshner > wrote: 4. As an umbrella term for any sociogenetic approach. Isn?t that its current usage? David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? Hi Andy, and VO's, What fascinates me is that the word "sociocultural" has a lot of different facets in terms of how the word was used in different contexts. It seems there are three I've been able to pick out. 1. as a derisive term in early Soviet history. 2. as an empowering term from Latin American voices. 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist "brand" at the height of the Cold War in the US. I'm not sure if I've done justice in the manner that I've represented that, but it is a well-intended attempt. Are there others? What I don't understand fully is whether there must be ONE explanation how the term came to be, or ONE definition of what it actually means. Can't it be polysemantic? polycontextual? If that is what's happening, then it makes sense that there would be an ongoing controversy about which one is the right definition or reason for not using it, depending on the interlocutor. If we are to talk about who used the term first, and that's where the value/authority holds, then all that tells us is that for those who value who used the term first. that's where the authority is. If we talk about the emotional attachment of the word as it is used in context and that's where the value/authority holds, then that tells us for those who value the most personal attachment to the word, that's where the authority is. If we talk about how the word was used functionally, where the value/authority holds in its efficacy, then all that tells is that for those who value whether the word works or not, that's where the authority is. I'm not sure one can put any of one these over the other two (or if there are more than that, if there are more). All we can say I suppose is whether in a particular context is the word "sociocultural" appropriate or not? I do find that this debate has begun to have its own life, this debate over the use of a word. I've begun doubt it will ever cease. One day the discussion will be how one used to debate about the term, first everyone was this way about the word, than they were that way about the word, and many large camps were formed in XXXX year to say why the word should not be used, but then X years later other large camps formed to say it is fine to use the word. I suppose it will only be when the debate ceases will it come to pass that the debate will be forgotten. But will that cessation solidify the use or non-use of the word? I understand the reasons for saying "cultural psychology." But for those swimming in a culture where behaviorism is considered the soul of psychology, adding "cultural" becomes a sad necessity. Even then, that necessity only depends upon how one sees culture, as either as an additive, an integral ingredient of psychology, or its basis. I believe I've read on the list that one should be able to say "psychology" and just *know* that it includes culture. I don't think we are there yet. Then that would be my argument to use "sociocultural" to understand it includes history. CHAT is sort of a defensive term (well, it is an acronym). But then... it leaves out "social" and is that OK? We certainly should not say sociocultural historical activity theory because that acronym is very unfulfilling. What is nice about CHAT though is that to chat is an activity of speech, and there is a implied meaning that also pertains to Vygotskian theories, and therefore meaningful. In a sense, it's not the meaning that we are arguing over, but how the limitations of our particular language fails to convey a meaning with such precision that it thereby to parses away any other inappropriate meaning. I'm just not sure that the project is one that can be achieved successfully, even if it succeeds for an interim. At the same time I can see why story of the elephant and the blind men also have a part to play in our understandings and assumptions. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] Annalisa, I have only been talking and writing about Vygotsky and co. since about 2000 and have been openly Marxist since the 1960s (indeed, Vygotsky is core to how I understand Marx) and never had any reason not to be. But it is true that when Mike first went to Moscow, it was at the height of the Cold War, and when he and others first brought Vygotsky's ideas to the USA, there was a lot of resistance to their Marxist content. I think the naming issue only arose as Vygotsky and the others began to build a real following. The issues with the choice of name change over the years, as you say. I prefer" CHAT," but sometimes I use "Cultural Psychology" and sometimes I use "Activity Theory" depending on the context. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: Andy, et al, I sort of came to this a little late in the thread, but I can offer that Vera John-Steiner didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian theory, but as I learn more about the word (thank you Mike), I can see how once a word is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard for the association to be broken. I think it's that way with words all the time coming and going out of favor, or meanings shifting, like the game of telephone, but across generations and cultures. Might I contribute to the discussion by asking whether the use of "sociocultural" was also a means of making the theories more available in the West (at least in the US). It seems there was redscare (you are welcome read the double entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as you like) prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the Marxist "brand" to access the actual theories on child development? In other words, to depoliticize the science? I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but as time passes, I can see its problems. For me, I had preferred the word because historical was always a given for me. In concern of the here and now, the real difficulty I had thought was understanding the social- how interactions between the child and the caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the -cultural, how the culture impacts thought, those things are more of the micro level, but also sociocultural, how the two also can interact and influence one another and that combined bears its own signature on the mind and its development. As far as History (capital H) that is sort of difficult to measure when we are talking about child development as there is very little history that a child has, unless we are talking about genetics, I suppose. Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect and am enriched by the discourse in which we now we find ourselves immersed about it so thanks to all for this. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!S83d-4RyHu8U65dYlKgo6WAIOPqvRN5m9WU72IiOFtpUlZuheOrmsEb4dFyYYDmfdt6TpQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200523/f2aad88f/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sat May 23 14:15:40 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 21:15:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Alas, hello again Tom (& VO's), While I accept your assessment of our differences in approaches and understandings, I do not see that it is obvious that there is no meeting point. For example, innovation exists in science and in art, in business it is entrepreneurship. I believe that there are good things that come from business entrepreneurship, and there are bad things too. We love that art and science are innovative, when they are, but there can be failings there too. The captains of industry who believe they are self-made men, and who believe that anyone who decides for oneself being on the assembly line of the manufacturing floor is only a dumb pawn in a larger game, would be in my estimation the worst that kind of human that entrepreneurship generates. Elon Musk is one example, perhaps. As much as I likely would not want Elon Musk over for dinner, I can admire that he has been able to steward the creation of an electric car in the midst of a sleepwalking auto industry that cannot envision automobiles without a gas-eating combustible engine. At the same time what he gives he takes away: I'm not sure that I can ever get on board a space rocket to inhabit Mars. I actually object to that project because as long as we haven't worked out how to feed everyone on this earthship, we should not be escaping it by polluting another planet, even if, as Carl Sagan told us, there are billions and billions of them out there. "They" in the form of (other they)'s do not have power unless we give them that power. That power is always up for debate every minute, every day, every year. Given that there are now 38 million unemployed in the US (I can't name the numbers elsewhere and I'm sorry about that), that's like the entire population of California being on the dole. It is a significant number, and it may be that many of those people start their own businesses, not because of education or desire, but of necessity. Many of the young and unemployed are educated. That could be a combustible cocktail, depending upon their self-awareness and outward worldview. One strange article in NYT described a scene designer who has been out of work since the health order shutdown, and hasn't received any unemployment yet because she filed in New Jersey, while her partner did because he filed in New York. Then she got an offer to work in a company who is making ... wait for it.... facemasks, so now she is toiling over a machine, sewing facemasks. I don't think I could live in that situation because of the stark irony, if that is a just word for that. I mourn the loss of her creativity, but I hope it is temporary. Now out of necessity, she's had to travel that path. So I can agree with you that because of the government order to shut down business, and because a company who hired her decided to make facemasks, because what other ingenious product would or could one manufacture right now? they have shaped her working life. Have they shaped her social life, though. I mean completely? She still has her contacts on her iPhone, she likely returns home to her partner to cook dinner and search for more work. Her desires and dreams are likely impacted, but has she completely given up? Should she? I am not pro-revolution, only because they create rivers of blood in streets, etc. I'm more of the mind that incremental choices can together create a tipping point of social change. For example, consider the tiny house movement. Or how young people will share resources, or reevaluate buying things, or what they eat. People make the best lemonade only with the best lemons. There is going to have to be a reckoning of having so many unemployed people. It can't be ignored. To just pretend that everyone will be happy with a lower wage job (lower than when the pandemic hit), is only going to drive people to desperate measures. The country will want to put people to work and this could be an opportunity for collective change, for creating meaningful jobs. Because who wants a civil war. So there will have to be some sort of appeasement for the social reality that people must have their basic needs met. The temporary stimulus is a lifeline, but the real economic difficulties will start when people start to return to work, and there are less jobs with the result being there is less money circulating in the economy overall. With interest rates so low, and pumping more money into the economy is only going to raise the prices of things, possibly wages, but not the buying power. People will cut bait from the lives they once had, and simplify. Moving to less crowded cities and towns, returning to live with parents. Perhaps creating cooperatives. One area for discovery with so much time on one's hands is handcrafting. I think there will be a blooming of new businesses that incorporate *real* labor. This may also usher in more vocational training programs. One article I read today discussed the eating of meat, and how it is a destructive social practice including its impact on climate change. Largely that industry depends upon of automation, and now with slaughterhouses being virus hotspots, do you want to trust that the meat you buy is not tainted with COVID? Or that you are forcing a worker into an unsafe work environment and catch the virus? If people were decide to stop eating meat, or reduce even its consumption because it's too expensive, and if the government stops giving subsidies to these agro-corporations, then these polluting companies will fail. That would be great news. Then the writer pointed out that if we returned to diets higher in plant-based food, that would increase demand for real farms, real entrepreneurship and generate jobs, as it takes more people to grow vegetables, than it does to raise pigs or chickens. We would also become healthier as a population. There is already a network of farmer's markets for local produce, so it may mean a growth in that area. I suppose what I'm trying to say is I do not think it is so cut and dried that we are subject to the worst forever. I think with so much time on our hands people are free to organize and decide to help one another in mutual aid. We do not have to rely on traditional power structures, and we do not have to resort to bloody revolutions. Depending upon what you are looking for in life, there is a third way arising. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Tom Richardson Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 4:24 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hello once more Annalisa Our difference of approach to and understanding of the modern state and the production of social life obviously admits of no meeting point as far as I read your astonishingly wide-ranging and impassioned response. Without the simplicity of my reply intending to signal a facile sarcasm, I must bluntly state that I begin from the acceptance that nefarious or not, 'They', in the sense of government and corporations, do have the power to control and shape the organisation of social life. We can, if enough socio-political pressure can be brought to bear through social movements, rebellions, revolts, shift certain aspects of that fashioning of our lives. But at present, the relationship of wage slavery imposed by Capital ,and the society shaped by that relationship, are dominant throughout the life of our planet. Sad at such an impasse, since we both wish the best for humanity Tom On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 21:46, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hi Tom, and VO's of XMCA Concerning your questions about our new normal now that COVID19 is with us and here to stay, I think your guess is as good as anyone's. I am not sure if we as humans have ever been burdened with such an event as this, and at the same time are able to watch the unfolding events and respond (or not respond if you are a stable genius) quickly from the feedback of data, news, anecdotes, and other forms of perception of how the virus is impacting us. What is worth remembering as well, is that epidemiologists have been warning us for decades that a pandemic was a clear an present danger to the way we live and negotiate the modern world. We see in sensurround how right they were. As I consider your question, I have to think that people mow might be sorted into two classes, well at least two classes: 1. People who seem to think the virus is just another flu and once we find a vaccine, all will return to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday or pre-pandemic time you mark your calendar as before the pandemic hit, which of course depends upon where on the earth you are located). 2. People who seem to think the virus has changed us and there will never be going back to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday...) I suspect the Americans of the neo-conservative persuasion who have been motivated to protest health order social distancing believe that not only this is a conspiracy to control fredom-loving people, but that we should return to Christmas 2019 as soon as possible, they are of Cohort 1. I think Cohort 2 are going to be people who take in the facts and the data and are actively attempting to sort out where do we go from here. I feel confident you are in Cohort 2, as ar most people on this list. Now, as Carol M has pointed out, in a lot of ways our discussion about online learning is a first world concern, for those who have an internet connection that is ubiquitous not only at home, but at school, work, on the bus, on planes, in cafes, and other public gathering spaces, like city halls, or town squares. That's another reason why it's hard to take Klein seriously, in terms of *tone*. I recall reading something from George Lakoff when he indicates that there is a liberal stance that seems to believe that if one objects loudly enough with "sky is falling" rhetoric and then feed out various data, that using this strategy the audience will become motivated to protest in the streets, write letters to congress, run for office, or whatever civil action must be done, and with alacrity. It doesn't work. I do not think being against anything ever "works." I think only being for something works. Let's look at Klein's article as an example. If she were to be rhetorically successful she would outline the problem she identifies (Mr. Schmidt goes to Washington), but instead of all that is wrong, talk about what can be right. Not to say she should agree with Mr. Schmidt and his ways. I feel her article could be a lot heavier on what works with education and how to enhance that further. She does mention how money should b used more for school nurses, smaller classrooms, etc. This is where she could have expanded beautifully into a viable solution to spark everyone's imaginations. But she didn't do that. She is more motivated it seems to mark Mr. Schmidt and his technological minions to masterminding a New World Order that will steal our souls and tether us to the Matrix from now until the end of time. I also feel she would have been more conducive to discourse by writing an open letter to Cuomo and Schmidt, and to invite a response. This is also leading by example to cultivate democratic processes that are near and dear to all of us. Instead she "otherfies" them, and this is also not useful. And I am not saying that as a stance to defend Mr. Schmidt or Gov Cuomo, in any way. So back to your question, I do not think that there is any way we will be extricated from this reality of COVID 19. We will have to pick our stones across the river carefully so that none of us slips and is carried down the rapids. I feel it is more useful to say we are a family of one kind, and all of us have to stay together to make it across. And that all of us deserves a life jacket as a measure of survival because not all of us will get to the other side without getting wet, or falling in. The tension between CEOs and their contempt for the slow-food of democracy is well known. If only they could persuade all of us to eat fast food, then they could take over the world as the next McDonalds, in terms of technological vision, whatever a McDonalds would look like on a screen, as an app, whathaveyou. Unfortunately what seems to elude folks who have not worked in tech, or those who see tech as just another new Ford in the garage, is that technology is always in flux. There is always development of new hardware that needs new software written to use it, so there is a double-quicksand of events upon which technology is founded (and funded) upon. That's what Moore's Law is about. Technology in order to "be itself" must always move fleetingly, like the shark must to breathe. Technology will never be able to last the halls of government. For that reason, any rendition of technology in government (and school systems for that matter) will be like bad combovers that are meant to convince us that we are now more attractive and appealing (not meaning to offend those who live by their combovers...) Where I feel technology could best serve us is to help create grassroots democracy tools, to support what we know is possible and could even threaten the basis for representative democracy and bring it closer to a straight agora democracy. Some might call this anarchy, and I could argue along the lines of David Graeber that anarchy is a more pure form of democracy practiced in all "primitive" or "ancient" cultures, it's not a perfect fit, and I intend to make that reference loosely. My point is to say there should be what David K calls involution of what government is, to what government was, and to supplant that, or rather what causes those parts to be pushed to the margins is to imagine a government where there is mor connection to agora-like venues where one person speaking in a Zoom-like frame is of equal stature of any other person speaking in the frame. One can sort of imagine this with the Zoom-empowered senate hearings which I watched for a while on the NYT front page. It was really strange to me. I suppose the danger is that we get to hear Sally Mc? from Arizona use her time to blame the Chinese for the virus, etc, for more time that we would like. But that's democracy. So one fallout could be that grade-school kids and their resulting perezhivanie from Zoom-based classrooms, will adopt the tool for political discussions as adults. Might that be a good thing? Maybe. At the same time, do you remember a book that came out in the mid90s called "Silicon Snake Oil"? This is yet another phenomenon of technology, that people oozing charisma will claw their way to the microphone and pitch an idea about the next vaporware, who will then make unsubstantiated promises and claims directed to feed our fantasies and dreams, and who will then abscond with all the money, only to request not to look at the man behind the green curtain, or if pulled by the ear into a senate hearing will say "I thought it was a good idea at the time." etc. I think that is the view of Klein about all technology, and there are merits in that, but there are also other ways to think about it. This article about Marc Benioff in Wired recently discusses about the social entrepreneurship of his wealth: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.wired.com/story/gospel-of-wealth-according-to-marc-benioff/__;!!Mih3wA!Sg6px-FXsdoGcAGjRbP9aQ4J4SB-OILYBsk3BMA_F9BML3Z-aFgLXJs1c7EQ4lSy6gMSdg$ Who by they way now owns the magazine Time, the way Jeff Bezos bought the WaPo, and Lauren Jobs bought The Altlantic, and Pierre Omidyar funded The Intercept. I do invite, as much as you can stomach, anyway, for any educators or other members of our vibrant list to make regular reading of Wired Magazine, which is a far more interesting read on technology than something like Fast Company. I encourage this reading, if only to know the enemy, as it were. Wired articles are far more nuanced and sophisticated than when the magazine first got off the ground in the early 90s. I find reading it helps to connect some dots for those who do not consume technology culture all the time. Just pick and choose what you are curious about. We must become familiar with the vernacular of technology if we want a hand in the game of how it plays in education, our stomping grounds. This will require effort on our part. That is not to say we must adopt all the shiny new toys. But we can be like a Consumer Report for education, and evaluate and measure the good the bad and the ugly of technology and its use in the edu sphere. We cannot sit on our laurels and wait for someone else to decide for us how technology will be deployed. That stance is what the mythology of inevitable technology rests and self-perpetuates. We must be more tech literate, and we must be the first to coin words and how they manifest in edu venues. What works what doesn't. I don't see any other way to fight back and to keep control of the educational narrative, where of course we want to hardwire zopeds, manifest and lead critical and nourishing perezhivanie, and model by example sterling mediated learning experiences for students and teachers. What other projects can there be? For me, this is "fighting back" because it makes the sort of shark-like entrepreneur recede for a time (as they will always be looking for a way into edu's tax coffers), because we are successful getting education right. I do not accept that entreprenuership is what took the sanctity from teaching and learning. But that's an argument to be made. I feel it is only one side of the argument. Once I had an male acquaintance tell me that one reason women are in inferior roles is because they let this happen to them. As you might imagine, I had a real hard time with that argument and I had to clench my jaw to now spew various vitriol upon him. But after I thought about it, in a narrow sense he is not wrong because not it is true that enough women in history identified the value to struggle for rights even if they would not see equality in their own lifetimes. There are many explanations for why that did not happen, that are not facile to depict. But then I also had to think of how much women's struggles have succeeded because they did decide to not let this happen to them anymore. But now women are learning in the US, anyway, that nothing fought for is a permanent fixture, and so we must become resigned to the perpetual struggle for equality, as all marginalized people must. So now I direct this to our context of education in the venue of online learning. This is not an easy question, and it is not intended to trivialize the work and efforts of many on this list, but it is instead a question of inner reflection, or a taking of inventory of one's own life: How much has each of you done to take measure and fight for meaningful education in the classroom? Could you have done more? Can you do more? Then the same for asking yourself how have you integrated technology appropriately into your learning methods and general perezhivanie. I hope this might provide some further food for thought concerning preservation on the sanctity of learning and instruction in the classroom. So all this is to reply to you Tom, that in short, the nefarious They can only take control if we let them. Kind regards, Annalisa ps please excuse all typos, which are all made on my own. ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 11:26 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hi Annalisa Thank you for providing the details of your deep and committed background in distance / online learning. Mine is obviously shallow, which must have triggered you and 'Robsub' somewhat. But my questioning is in the newer context of the Covid19 threats to global society and the solutions being sought to extricate us from them. Governor Cuomo's conversation with Schmidt to examine solutions to the problems of present coping and future emergence from the pandemic is understandable. Two persons with power and a need to act, discuss what technology (in its widest hard- and software aspects) has to offer. In a democracy we can assess the solutions they propose and shape them to what we know to be as near to optimal for our society as possible. Your assertion of the efficacy of our agency which Klein seems to deny, with her politico-economic caveats. Schmidt has an evangelism for the potential of technology, but expressed with such restraint - he's no zealot. He also, in the video of the ECNY conversation with Marie-Josee Kravis, sees the lack of 'simplicity' in the three-tier democratic system of the US. He is a CEO with an organisation geared to problem-analysis, solution choices, and operational capability which can be put into action without delaying debate. He expressed no hostility to 'democracy' but as he said, it does not work simply. Klein reminds us to be wary if not alarmed, not because she is despairing (I believe), but because that direct entrepreneurial drive has profit making as its unavoidable aim. Whatever Schmidt's humanistic feelings, if profit doesn't result from his and his companies actions, they will not survive. That competitive drive is also present in his aspirations for international dominance (see his remarks on the rise of China's technology). So far, the sort of distance / online learning you have worked on, has been nested in the context of family and (normal) school life. That normality had implicit in it human values, customs and structures, whatever differences of class, race, gender and culture were present. The melding of state and enterprise in a newly-developing novel (5G?)high-tech 'solution' to mediating education presents a situation which need to be examined I believe. And my query, in that 'Kleinian' context was looking for answers from those, like yourself, with wide experience of previous technological 'answers' and their implications for the results within the learner. I affirm, along with you, the irrepressible resistance and sheer cantankerousness we humans bring to unjust situations. But such fighting back will often be unsuccessful in its aims, when the need to reduce labour time with new technology is driving events - Luddism and machine looms? Our human drive to change and adapt, our use of our agency to create or alter our lives must not be suppressed. But what Klein is reminding us of is just how tilted is the balance of power - the power of the state and behind it, the drive from the vast corporate world, for profit. Our agency is so often undone by the arbitrary intervention of those forces. Those are the forces which have destroyed what you name the 'sanctity' of teaching and learning. I would name it the basic need for those goals, but we share it. With the need to re-invigorate just such a precious resource, we will continue to fight like hell. Despite their mere humanness, corporations and states at present have greater knowledge and power than 'mere' citizens. My intervention in xmca discussion was really to say "They're looking to take even more control of daily life. Within academia, you can analyse how they are making such changes happen and continue to alert the rest of us, if you fear the consequences of their changes." Best wishes Tom On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 22:29, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hi Tom, May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed by SL's prospects. In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of associations of place with learning. In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and constrain learning to books. We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of learning. I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged learning venues . Not with grade school. I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!Sg6px-FXsdoGcAGjRbP9aQ4J4SB-OILYBsk3BMA_F9BML3Z-aFgLXJs1c7EQ4lQfydX0JA$ It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be integrated with existing models. If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and surveillance is a constructive combination. There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and introspection, I will never accept that reality. To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers and pins." I just do not believe this narrative. We cannot give up. Is there a fight ahead? Yes. Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most definitely, yes. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hello Annalisa Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. * What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such learning takes place?'. * What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes for the perezhivanie of the learner, which shapes her social being and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. Kind regards Tom On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello Tom, Thank you for posting the link. I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended into our lives. I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control the world. Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to deliberate the way forward. As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency to decide how to use our tools. Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply does not hold water for me. I hope this might be a little encouraging. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hello Tom Richardson This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat Project" that has just finished its planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human development, and theories of "Development in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most members of this discussion over the years, is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about for 100 years. Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing working models of effective practices that do NOT assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. Thanks for asking. mike On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson > wrote: Greetings Xmca-ers I would like to raise a question. In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening recently: "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks after that article appeared, he described the ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the country had been forced to cobble together during this public health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!Sg6px-FXsdoGcAGjRbP9aQ4J4SB-OILYBsk3BMA_F9BML3Z-aFgLXJs1c7EQ4lTC6ry2GA$ Just asking Tom Richardson Middlesbrough UK -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200523/06ecf2c7/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat May 23 14:34:44 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 06:34:44 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> <36147263-58ba-6908-ce60-bc367719772e@marxists.org> <71876107-fad8-3a23-2bd9-35d13d923268@marxists.org> <76d5fed9-4397-5cf6-aed4-d537df05af17@marxists.org> Message-ID: I didn't mean to confuse you, Annalisa. But Andy and and the various philosohers on this list have used expressions that I in turn find very confusing and I suppose I have also confused in my own turn. It is one of the hazards of putting together people from different backgrounds without proper intellectual social distancing. Here are two statements from philosophy that linguists like me find confusing: a) Everything is one hundred percent mediated and one hundred percent unmediated. b) (I)t is argument about the beginnings of philosophy, not psychology, and certainly about the distinction between basic and higher mental functions. I find the first statement confusing, because it seems to me to rule out "more" or "less" as applied to mediated and unmediated. This rules out the possibility that children develop more mediated functions (e.g. volitional attention, semanticized perception, logical memory, verbal thinking) on the basis of less mediated functions (involuntary attention, optical/aural perception, eidetic memory, and purely practical intelligence). Andy has now amended this to two separate yes/no questions ("Is objectivity mediated for the subject?" "One hundred percent yes." "Is objectivity unmediated for the subject?" "One hundred percent yes"). By separating it into two different clauses, Andy is reproducing the grammar of the original Hegel in dialogic form, but he is also acknowledging the inadequacy of the translation that he announced he would not discuss because it is too clear. I find the second statement even more confusing: I am not sure how one can discuss the distinction between basic and higher mental functions without beginning psychology, but you can apply to Andy for details on what exactly he meant. Vygotsky (and Vera John-Steiner, and the other leading representtive of the New Mexico school which you are associated with) believed in higher and lower functions. This was common among psychologists at the time, but it was not a way of quantitatively comparing subjects. It was usually interpreted in a dualistic way--like a two story house, with immediate perception on the lower floor (animals and infants) and higher perception on the upper (angels and aduls), immediate attention (like when you hear thunder and jump) on the lower floor and voluntary attention (the ability to listen to somebody's meanings and edit out all the pauses and fillers) on the upper. Vygotsky pointed out that the two were just as linked as they were distinct (that was what Ruqaiya Hasan always got out of Vygotsky and she was right). Vygotsky also thought that all the rooms in the supposed upper floor were semantically joined through word meanings (because word meaning participates in the formation of all higher functions) creating a unified system. This is not true of lower functions: involuntary attention and practical intelligence are not developmentally linked the way that voluntary attention and verbal intelligence are, We know that Vygotsky criticized his own early work for seeing the higher and lower functions in the two-story house way and not seeing that the higher functions are systemically linked. A lot of my own interest in systemic-functional linguistics, an approach that has nothing to do with the sentence diagramming you refer to, is about seeing those higher functions as systemically linked through wording (lexicogrammar), and not simply through word meaning (lexis). The latter was Ruqaiya's critique of Vygotsky, and Andy has strongly objected to it as treating Vygotsky as a linguist. Brabantio: What profane wretch art thou? Iago: I am one, sir, that comes to tell you your daughter and the Moor are making the beast with two backs. Brabantio: Thou art a linguist. Iago: You are---a philosopher. (Othello, Act I Scene I, but perhaps my logical/verbal memory misgives me there at the end...) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!RH6LAnBsef6doJ6EFER3t2j96hvVmo059l2sBPsmjgn5k_DATUUAK4ZP39b0ytp83Zymrg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RH6LAnBsef6doJ6EFER3t2j96hvVmo059l2sBPsmjgn5k_DATUUAK4ZP39b0ytqwIQuWfQ$ On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 4:56 AM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi David and Andy, > > When I read this: > > "b) Chiaroscuro paintings are equally both dark and light in Caravaggio's > time and in our own." > > > I would have interpreted this to mean that paintings are 50% dark and 50% > light. Not 100% dark and 100% light. I suppose this depends upon where one > places the parentheses. I can't remember exactly how to diagram sentences, > and I would be difficult for me to do that here in an email client, but > what of this: > > (Chiaroscura (paintings)) are (equally both) ((dark) and (light)) (in > (Carraviagio's (time)) and (in (our (own [time]))). > > or > > (Chiaroscuro (paintings)) are (equally (both ((dark) and (light))) (in > Caravaggio's (time)) and (in (our own ([time]))). > > I would never have presumed something could be 100% X and 100% Y unless we > were talking about two separate, but joined, entities. > > In that case I'd interpret this to mean that the definition of Chiaroscuro > paintings no matter what historical period have two types, what might be > called white paintings and what might be called black paintings. Say, were > there an opposite of Film Noir, called Film Blanc. And these were related > paintings because of similar painting methods and composition, and even > subject matter, but one is predominantly dark the other predominantly > white. > > Of course nothing like this does exist in Art History, but it is > conceivable to discuss painting genres in just this way. > > --- > > Then, I also wanted to point out that psychological can be biological (as > in what the brain and nervous system, etc does to take in perceptual data, > and respond accordingly, such as with walking, balancing a cup in one's > hand not to spill the contents, or vigilance to protect one's children > while walking through a crowded airport). This include the limbic system, > yes? > > And psychological can be introspective (I'm not sure whether it is the > proper word, forgive me, but I mean the subjective experience of the person > who retrieves memories, lays down neuroses to compensate from past traumas, > enjoy fantasies or imaginations, or simply possesses a more unobstructed > sense of self (than a less unobstructed sense)). > > If one can accept this dualism in the human body it is possible for > experience to be 100% mediated and 100% unmediated, depending upon which > system is being activated and how the two are working in tandem or > separately, or whether one is overpowering the other. > > Isn't it so? > > Also, I have a curious question to ask. What is the dividing line between > higher function and lower function? Are there classifications? > > Is this scenario possible: > > In Subject A there are 20 lower functions and 5 higher functions > In Subject B there are 20 lower functions and 20 higher functions > In Subject C there are 10 lower functions and 20 higher functions. > In Subject D there are 5 lower functions and 5 lower functions > > Taking age out of the equation, in that we suppose they are all the same > age, and also for control, they have similar environments, caregiving, > nutrition, and education, etc. I would ask this: > > Does a lower function imply a corresponding higher function? In that lower > function 1x will in time with proper environmental inputs develop into the > higher function 1X? Or can 2 lower functions only produce 1 higher > function? > > Or can 3 lower function produce in varying proportions 5-8 higher > functions. > > Such as function 1ab + 2cd creates function 1ac, 2ac, 1bd, 2abd, 1bcd, > 2ad, 1ad, etc. > > In Subject A, can we assume that there is potential to develop 15 (or > more) additional functions in the subject's future? > > In Subject B, can we assume that there can be still further development > beyond 20 higher functions that grow out from the original 20 lower ones? > > In Subject C, can we assume that superior plasticity has afforded "more" > development from less available resources, such as a person with a > disabiilty (like blindness, deafness) has developed additional higher > functions most others would never develop, say a keen sense of smell, > haptic ability, or visual acuity? > > In Subject D, can we assume that no further development can occur because > there is not enough "material" present in the lower functions for any > extended development into higher functions, such as an infant suffering > from brain asphyxiation during birth. > > Just trying to understand how one is slicing the orange, or peeling it, > etc. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > *Sent:* Friday, May 22, 2020 3:39 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > But this is not the exact quote. It is only a translation. The exact quote > is this: > > > > ("...) da? es nichts gibt, nichts im Himmel oder in der Natur oder im > Geiste oder wo es sei, was nicht ebenso die Unmittelbarkeit enth?lt als die > Vermittlung, so da? sich diese beiden Bestimmungen als ungetrennt und > untrennbar und jener Gegensatz sich als ein Nichtiges zeigt." (There is > nothing given, neither in heaven nor in nature nor in mind nor in wherever > it may be, which is not equally the unmediated contain alongside the > mediated, so that both of these two determinations (i.e. determining > something as unmediated or as mediated--DK) prove to be inseparable and > inextricable, and their contrast (or their opposition--DK) proves nul." > > > What's the difference between the exact quote and the translation? As I > pointed out to Andy, the translation puts "equally" and "both" in the same > clause, while the original German has them in two different clauses. > Compare: > > a) Chiaroscuro paintings are both dark and light, and this was equally > true for Caravaggio as for us. > > b) Chiaroscuro paintings are equally both dark and light in Caravaggio's > time and in our own. > > Statement a) is true enough, although as Mike points out it is the > beginning of a concrete genetic analysis and not the end. But statement b) > is utterly false: it puts an end to all genetic analysis and abolishes > development altogether. It says, uselessly, that all paintings are 100% > dark and 100% light and so the only genetic analysis possible is one of > changing self-consciousness, either in the painter or the viewer. This is > an idealist dialectic, and it is certainly not a historical one. > > Similarly, it is one thing to say that all psychological functions are > both mediated and unmediated, and this is equally true for lower functions > as it is for higher functions. For example, when I look at a painting by > Caravaggio or a film by Derek Jarman, the rod cells in my retina and my > optic nerve are mediating the experience as well as my cerebral cortex and > my biographical knowledge of Caravaggio. > > But it's very different to say that all psychological functions are > equally both mediated and unmediated, or 100% mediated and 100% > unmediated. In addition to the arithmetical absurdinty, this does not allow > me to distinguish between lower and higher psychological functions. > > (And I do think this is how Andy gets his notion that when two things are > different we cannot say that one is more developed than the other. Yet > higher psychological functions do indeed presuppose lower functions but not > the other way around. Andy calls this difference and not development; I > call it equally both difference and development.) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!RH6LAnBsef6doJ6EFER3t2j96hvVmo059l2sBPsmjgn5k_DATUUAK4ZP39b0ytp83Zymrg$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RH6LAnBsef6doJ6EFER3t2j96hvVmo059l2sBPsmjgn5k_DATUUAK4ZP39b0ytqwIQuWfQ$ > > > > > On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 2:13 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > And it is worth noting that Hegel wrote this in the 1810s simply on the > basis of logical criticism of Kant and Jacobi (a contemporary sharing some > views with Descartes). And yet it took more than a century (if I'm not > mistaken) to make its way into hard science. Here's how he explains it: > > ? 66 > That said, we continue to stand by the position that immediate knowing is > to be taken as a fact. With this, however, the consideration is directed > towards the field of experience, to a psychological phenomenon. ? In this > respect, it should be noted that it is one of the most common experiences > that truths (which one knows very well to be the result of the most > intricate and highly mediated considerations) present themselves > immediately in the consciousness of someone conversant with such knowledge. > Like everybody else who has been trained in a science, the mathematician > immediately has at his fingertips solutions to which a very complicated > analysis has led. Every educated person has immediately present in his or > her knowing a host of universal viewpoints and principles that have > resulted only from repeated reflection and long life experience. The > facility we have achieved in any sphere of knowing, also in fine art, in > technical dexterity, consists precisely in having those sorts of > familiarity, those kinds of activity immediately present in one?s > consciousness in the case at hand, indeed, even in an activity directed > outwards and in one?s limbs. ? In all these cases the immediacy of knowing > does not only not exclude its mediation; to the contrary, they are so > connected that immediate knowing is even the product and result of knowing > that has been mediated. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 22/05/2020 1:59 pm, mike cole wrote: > > Both HAVE TO BE present at once, Andy or there is no perception. > Mike > > On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 8:55 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > Yes, last week in our Hegel Reading Group we read the section in the > Shorter Logic, following his critiques of Kant and Descartes, Hegel > explains how thought is both immediate *and* mediated, and even over Zoom > I could see the clouds gradually receding from my young students' eyes. All > of a sudden the whole fruitless argument between scepticism and dogmatism, > relativism and historicism, fell away. The most difficult thing to grasp > was how perception was not just immediate and mediated, but both were > essentially present in the same moment, how without the cultural training > of the senses the brain could not make any sense at all of the nervous > stimulation of the organs of sight, etc. > > Andy > > PS. the exact quote from Hegel is: "there is nothing, nothing in heaven, > or in nature or in mind or anywhere else which does not equally contain > both immediacy and mediation" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/hl/hlbegin.htm*0092__;Iw!!Mih3wA!RH6LAnBsef6doJ6EFER3t2j96hvVmo059l2sBPsmjgn5k_DATUUAK4ZP39b0ytpQEWXg3w$ > > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 22/05/2020 9:20 am, mike cole wrote: > > This is a point I have struggled to make for many years, Andy. I didn't > know I was quoting Hegel: > > Hegel: > 'Everything is both immediate and mediated." > > The challenge is to rise to the concrete with this abstraction or its just > la la la. > > mike > > On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 6:42 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > Of course, Annalisa, I agree that Science is a moral practice, but that is > not what is at issue here. > > > Two issues concern me with what you have said: (1) the question of "who > decides?" and (2) the quantification of development as in "more evolved" > bringing with it the implication of moral value attached to development. > > > (1) The discovery of the "social construction of reality" was an > achievement of the Left, the progressives, with people like the Critical > Psychologists, the theorists of postmodernism and post-structural feminists > in the 1970s an 80s, who exposed how taken-for-granted facts along with the > truths of Science were on closer inspection ideological products of > dominant social groups. Of course, how reality is *seen *is an > inseparable part of how reality *is*. This insight led to a range of > powerful theoretical and practical critiques of all aspects of society. > Feminists offered an alternative way of interpreting reality as a powerful > lever for changing that reality by undermining patriarchal structures and > certainties. So far so good. But today, in 2020, it is not progressives who > are asking "who decides?" and calling into question the very idea of truth > and fact: it is Donald Trump and Rudi Giuliani. Quite honestly, this > outcome was always implicit in the postmodern and poststructuralist > critique. Or, could I say: "Donald Trump is a more evolved form of Judith > Butler" if I thought in those terms, which I don't. > > > Hegel takes up this problem with the maxim: "Everything is both immediate > and mediated." Yes, social interests dominant in a certain social domain by > definition determine what is true in that domain (though remember, every > social domain is finite and has its boundaries). But that is not just by > saying something about an* independently existing* reality which can be > subject to any number of *alternative* representations (as Kant would > have it), but rather the dominant social interests *determine that > reality itself*. They do that both *immediately *and * through the ideal > representation* of that reality which is *part of that reality*. You > can't "decide" by a purely discursive moves - you have to *change *that > reality. You do that with the weapons of both theoretical and practical > critique. > > > What this means is that you can study the documents (assuming you weren't > personally present) of some past dispute and see with your own eyes how and > why some people formulated new word meanings, and began to use these new > word meaning(s) in their own communication, and thereby facilitated others > from using this word meaning, and the relevant concepts, in their work, and > so on. > > > (2) As perhaps I have illustrated in my example above that there is no > implication of "higher" in development. In my own education, it was Sylvia > Scribner's "Uses of History" (1985) which explained this to me. "Higher" > implies comparison and comparison in turn implies *interchangeability*. > For example, if I was considering whether to emigrate to the US or France, > I might consider public safety as a metric and decide that France was > superior to the US and make my decision accordingly. Or, I might consider > job availability for an English-speaking monoglot like me as the metric, > and decide that the US was superior to France. But to decide that the US is > superior to France or vice versa without the choice and the relevant metric > is the moral judgment which neither you nor I find acceptable. They're just > different. > > > Understanding word meanings and concepts entails an analysis of *both *how > the word is used in the field in question, and the history as to how it > came to be so. Using the concept of "germ cell," I can work my way back and > forth through an etymological field, forensically, like a detective, until > I can connect the particular use of the word which emerged as a germ cell > at some earlier time, in some situation where the implication of choosing > that word meaning was abundantly clear to all, which allows me to see > *why* someone felt the need (now forgotten) to introduce the word meaning > and what it's absence would mean here and now, where it is already taken > for granted. > > > My apologies for the unacceptably long message, which is much against my > own mores, but I don't know how to clarify these issues more succinctly. > > > Andy > > > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 20/05/2020 3:51 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Andy, > > I suppose the issue about being on a branch of evolution has more to do > with who decides what the branch is. Is it time? or is it topical? or is it > based upon the interlocutors? > > If we say one word usage is more "evolved" than another, I suppose I am > just pushing back on that because who decides what is more evolved? > > Forgive me, but can we ever say that if something is more "evolved" it is > actually better? What do we actually mean when we say something is evolved? > > What if one term lasts over a longer arc of time than another usage? It > seems if we use the evolution rubric, it would be considered more "fit" > than the one that is changing over the same period of time. > > I do find it helpful that you to bring up the germ cell and how that > concept pertains to analysis. That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm glad to > know that to assign the parentheses does entail an ideological move, and > that that can't be escaped. As long as we know what the ideology is, there > is transparency in our analysis. > > I do think moral evaluations are worth including on all discussions, not > necessarily to forbid discussions or scientific pursuits, but to use as > landmarks to keep our bearings. Scientific concepts have a way of not being > inclusive of contexts (i.e., lived experiences) or being grounded, right? > > Perhaps this is what made Vygotsky such a humane and compassionate > scientific thinker is that he could understand how scientific concepts can > be abusive tools for oppression. Anchoring them in lived experience shows > their validity. Would this be a fair statement to you, Andy? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > > *Sent:* Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:23 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Annalisa, "where does history start"? Effectively there is no starting > point, and the choosing of a starting point is always an ideological move. > Foucault does this to great effect. Ilyenkov deals with this in his book > "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's Capital" and explains the need for > what he calls the "logical-historical method." To short circuit the > complexities of reading Ilyenkov, in CHAT we rely on the identification of > the unit of analysis or "germ cell" to anchor our historical investigation. > > > "Sociogenesis" is just Latin for "social development," the word I used. > But if you are going to ascribe a moral value to "evolution" and then > reject the concept on that basis, you'd better also reject "development" > and all the "geneses" and evolution of species by natural selection and all > modern biology while you are at it. Alternatively, you could choose *not* > to ascribe moral values to scientific concepts, then the whole of science > is open to you. > > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 18/05/2020 3:25 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Andy (& VO's), > > I think that that was my point, that we cannot capture everything in the > word to describe the theory. And that is because of the limit of our > language. > > Even where genesis actually is, where something starts can be difficult to > pinpoint. I mean where does History actually start? > > These words that you mention phylogenesis, ethnogenesis, ontogenesis, are > words that are like brackets of a pair of parentheses. Who decides where to > put them? (And why not sociogenesis?) > > I'm not sure it's correct to say the choice of a word locates the user on > a branch of a cultural evolutionary tree, because then that starts to mean > that one speaker is more evolved than another based on the use of a word. > > It might be better to say that the choice of a word locates the user to a > particular context. I could live with that. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > > *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:27 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > You're never going to succeed in formally capturing the full scope of the > theory in a word, Annalisa. "socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity > theory" still leave out biology and Darwin, which is a part of our theory, > too. > > > It is sometimes said that human development is the coincidence of *four* > processes: *phylogenesis *(i.e., evolution of the species), cultural > development (*ethnogenesis*, the development of technology *and *language), > *social development* (one and the same culture has different classes and > political groups side by side) and *ontogenesis *(even twins can grow up > very differently according to the experiences (*perezhivaniya*) they go > through). I tried to describe this in: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/ontogenesis.htm__;!!Mih3wA!RH6LAnBsef6doJ6EFER3t2j96hvVmo059l2sBPsmjgn5k_DATUUAK4ZP39b0ytq3IaFYxQ$ > > > > But if you look into the history of a word what you will inevitably find > is that at some point (in time and social space) there was some dispute, > and this dispute was either (1) resolved by both parties agreeing and > marking this agreement by the coining of a new word meaning or the dropping > of a word meaning altogether, or (2) there is a split and one or both sides > of the split adopt a word meaning which distinguishes them from the other > side (structuralism's favourite trope) or variations on the above scenarios. > > > So the choice of a word tends to locate the user on a branch in the > cultural evolutionary tree. > > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 17/05/2020 11:56 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > David K & VO's > > What pray-tell is an anthropologue? > > I am divided (pun intended) about saying that sociocultural = social + > culture, when they are intertwined holistically. To me, sociocultural > points to a space in between, or perhaps better said to a context of > interactions between individuals (who form a society) that are easily > accepted among them and practiced over time. > > We can conceptually parse out the social and the cultural, but don't we do > that because of the words and not because of the ostensible reality going > on interactionally? Can we always understand something by dissecting it > into parts? > > Again, this seems to be the limit of language, not of the conceptual > context or content. > > In a sense to use the term "sociocultural" is to grab the tail of the > tiger. The tail of the tiger is still the tiger, but perhaps a more > manageable one than to grab its head. > > Perhaps this is why Vygotskians just call themselves Vygotskians to align > themselves with the source of the first theories rather than to later > conceptions and other developments (i.e. Leontiev, etc). Just thinking out > loud. > > Another argument is that if we want to be all inclusive, then we have to > include tool-use, as it's not the social, the culture, and the history, but > also the language and tools used. I realize some practitioners would say > that language is no different than a tool, but I feel language is > different, even though it may have a similar cognitive response in the mind > as would using a tool. > > Activity suggests tool use, though not always. Consider dance, or > storytelling, or going for a walk. > > How about: socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory??? > > Yes! I am writing this a little tongue in cheek. I hope you do not mind. > > Kind regards, > > Annalsia > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > > *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:14 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > It's a very domain-specific umbrella, like those cane-brollies that go > with a bowler. "Sociocultural" is strongly preferred used in second > language acquisition, thanks to the influence of Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf > and Matthew Poehner; I have never seen "cultural historical" used in this > literature. But "cultural-historical" is similarly preferred in psychology > and anthropology, thanks to the influence of J.V. Wertsch, Mike > Cole, Martin Packer and Andy Blunden; that's really why we are having this > discussion on what "socio-cultural" might mean on a list largely populated > by roving psychologists and nomadic anthropologues. > > Interestingly, the Francophones prefer "historico-cultural", using the > argument that you can understand the process without the product but not > the product without the process. I stopped using "sociocultural" because I > thought it was redundant, but now I am really not sure of this: it seems to > me that the relationship is a similar one--you can study society as process > without studying its cultural product (e.g. as demographics, economics, > statistics) but you can't really study culture without some understanding > of the process of its formation. > > There was a similar disagreement in systemic functional linguistics > between Halliday and Jim Martin over the term "socio-semiotic". Martin said > that it was redundant, because there couldn't be any semiotic without > society. Halliday rather flippantly replied that ants had a society without > a semiotics, and at the time it seemed to me that this was a non > sequitur, first of all because ants don't really have a society in > our sense (precisely because there is no such thing as an ant history > separate from phylogenesis on the one hand and ontogenesis on the other) > and secondly because ants most definitely do have a semiotics, albeit one > based on chemistry and not perception as ours is. > > It seems to me, in retrospect, that the relationship between the semiotic > and the social is much more like the relationship between the social and > the biological, or even the biological and the chemical. The semiotic is a > certain level of organization that the social has, but there are > other levels, just as biology is a certain kind of chemical organization > which does not exclude other, nonbiological ways organizing chemicals, > and chemistry is a kind of physical organization which doesn't exclude > sub-chemical organizations. > > Perhaps we can think of the relationship between culture and society in > the same way? > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!RH6LAnBsef6doJ6EFER3t2j96hvVmo059l2sBPsmjgn5k_DATUUAK4ZP39b0ytp83Zymrg$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RH6LAnBsef6doJ6EFER3t2j96hvVmo059l2sBPsmjgn5k_DATUUAK4ZP39b0ytqwIQuWfQ$ > > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David H Kirshner wrote: > > 4. As an umbrella term for any sociogenetic approach. > > Isn?t that its current usage? > > David > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar > *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > > > Hi Andy, and VO's, > > > > What fascinates me is that the word "sociocultural" has a lot of different > facets in terms of how the word was used in different contexts. It seems > there are three I've been able to pick out. > > 1. as a derisive term in early Soviet history. > 2. as an empowering term from Latin American voices. > 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist "brand" at the height of the Cold > War in the US. > > I'm not sure if I've done justice in the manner that I've represented > that, but it is a well-intended attempt. Are there others? > > > > What I don't understand fully is whether there must be ONE explanation how > the term came to be, or ONE definition of what it actually means. Can't it > be polysemantic? polycontextual? > > > > If that is what's happening, then it makes sense that there would be an > ongoing controversy about which one is the right definition or reason for > not using it, depending on the interlocutor. > > > > If we are to talk about who used the term first, and that's where the > value/authority holds, then all that tells us is that for those who value > who used the term first. that's where the authority is. > > > > If we talk about the emotional attachment of the word as it is used in > context and that's where the value/authority holds, then that tells us for > those who value the most personal attachment to the word, that's where the > authority is. > > > > If we talk about how the word was used functionally, where the > value/authority holds in its efficacy, then all that tells is that for > those who value whether the word works or not, that's where the authority > is. > > > > I'm not sure one can put any of one these over the other two (or if there > are more than that, if there are more). All we can say I suppose is whether > in a particular context is the word "sociocultural" appropriate or not? > > > > I do find that this debate has begun to have its own life, this debate > over the use of a word. I've begun doubt it will ever cease. > > > > One day the discussion will be how one used to debate about the term, > first everyone was this way about the word, than they were that way about > the word, and many large camps were formed in XXXX year to say why the word > should not be used, but then X years later other large camps formed to say > it is fine to use the word. I suppose it will only be when the debate > ceases will it come to pass that the debate will be forgotten. But will > that cessation solidify the use or non-use of the word? > > > > I understand the reasons for saying "cultural psychology." But for those > swimming in a culture where behaviorism is considered the soul of > psychology, adding "cultural" becomes a sad necessity. Even then, that > necessity only depends upon how one sees culture, as either as an additive, > an integral ingredient of psychology, or its basis. I believe I've read on > the list that one should be able to say "psychology" and just *know* that > it includes culture. I don't think we are there yet. > > > > Then that would be my argument to use "sociocultural" to understand it > includes history. CHAT is sort of a defensive term (well, it is an > acronym). But then... it leaves out "social" and is that OK? We certainly > should not say sociocultural historical activity theory because that > acronym is very unfulfilling. What is nice about CHAT though is that to > chat is an activity of speech, and there is a implied meaning that also > pertains to Vygotskian theories, and therefore meaningful. > > > > In a sense, it's not the meaning that we are arguing over, but how the > limitations of our particular language fails to convey a meaning with such > precision that it thereby to parses away any other inappropriate meaning. > I'm just not sure that the project is one that can be achieved > successfully, even if it succeeds for an interim. > > > > At the same time I can see why story of the elephant and the blind men > also have a part to play in our understandings and assumptions. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Annalisa, I have only been talking and writing about Vygotsky and co. > since about 2000 and have been openly Marxist since the 1960s (indeed, > Vygotsky is core to how I understand Marx) and never had any reason not to > be. But it is true that when Mike first went to Moscow, it was at the > height of the Cold War, and when he and others first brought Vygotsky's > ideas to the USA, there was a lot of resistance to their Marxist content. I > think the naming issue only arose as Vygotsky and the others began to build > a real following. The issues with the choice of name change over the years, > as you say. I prefer" CHAT," but sometimes I use "Cultural Psychology" and > sometimes I use "Activity Theory" depending on the context. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Andy, et al, > > > > I sort of came to this a little late in the thread, but I can offer that > Vera John-Steiner didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian > theory, but as I learn more about the word (thank you Mike), I can see how > once a word is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard for the > association to be broken. > > > > I think it's that way with words all the time coming and going out of > favor, or meanings shifting, like the game of telephone, but across > generations and cultures. > > > > Might I contribute to the discussion by asking whether the use of > "sociocultural" was also a means of making the theories more available in > the West (at least in the US). It seems there was redscare (you are welcome > read the double entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as you like) > prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the Marxist "brand" to > access the actual theories on child development? In other words, to > depoliticize the science? > > > > I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but as time passes, I can > see its problems. > > > > For me, I had preferred the word because historical was always a given for > me. In concern of the here and now, the real difficulty I had thought was > understanding the social- how interactions between the child and the > caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the -cultural, how the culture > impacts thought, those things are more of the micro level, but also > sociocultural, how the two also can interact and influence one another and > that combined bears its own signature on the mind and its development. As > far as History (capital H) that is sort of difficult to measure when we are > talking about child development as there is very little history that a > child has, unless we are talking about genetics, I suppose. > > > > Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect and am enriched by the > discourse in which we now we find ourselves immersed about it so thanks to > all for this. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > > *Sent:* Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > -- > > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, > translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!RH6LAnBsef6doJ6EFER3t2j96hvVmo059l2sBPsmjgn5k_DATUUAK4ZP39b0ytqpTMkfyg$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200524/2ba93d6f/attachment.html From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Sat May 23 16:16:42 2020 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 19:16:42 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> <36147263-58ba-6908-ce60-bc367719772e@marxists.org> <71876107-fad8-3a23-2bd9-35d13d923268@marxists.org> <76d5fed9-4397-5cf6-aed4-d537df05af17@marxists.org> Message-ID: This has always been one of my favorite phrases of your David Kellogg(2011 :-). [xmca] Bladeless Knives Without Handles ------------------------------ - *To*: Culture ActivityeXtended Mind - *Subject*: [xmca] Bladeless Knives Without Handles - *From*: David Kellogg - *Date*: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 20:29:50 -0700 (PDT) - *Delivered-to*: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu - *Dkim-signature*: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1312514990; bh=ZTwBpevYMpENXk2UOfvblO+lutaUeMcfccMk8Wdkx84=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=IXH/urTk8sUk6cnSkj3y8aF3aoE8c58BLUEQvGDfnYXRhyZNGjUlGpPj4SaY/jXGGUU/PsX3U1uSHupOR/wE4nNGkUx9rYIVPA+utSFSybh8UezbGY2z1l7/zL3Emq3OrNW0haXYozvsVL6Ox6/mzitKGeX1F4bgvbzMqMwVCPg= - *Domainkey-signature*: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=0S1dEibEyzneLw0TgC4q1XiggO2GpLR62Cal2+dXI8vLP1oevRRJEKtBX7vN26kSfCPgsprFeNbaHKrxaTcrd5dgluUigFsqDoZfd4tzaPowdu6AhJG94PGENr+oP39/0jC4F0tdUFal9TMtDq+heW6w3l8QKBuC9Och3A1tg1Y=; - *In-reply-to*: < CAGaCnpwhsvC+OFjajk8HA4m+ooqqfK0-e=BGSys_0fCCVmCryw@mail.gmail.com > - *List-archive*: - *List-help*: > - *List-id*: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" - *List-post*: > - *List-subscribe*: , < mailto:xmca-request@weber.ucsd.edu?subject=subscribe > - *List-unsubscribe*: , < mailto:xmca-request@weber.ucsd.edu?subject=unsubscribe > - *Reply-to*: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" - *Sender*: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu ------------------------------ A few belated comments, some of them appreciative but mostly quite critical, about Fernando Gonzalez Rey?s ?Re-examination of Defining Moments? and his notion of sense. a) Both Rey and Veresov (in his article ?Vygotsky Before Vygotsky?) emphasize NEGATION in their periodization: they stress absolute differences between the early Vygotsky (interested in art, literature, imagination, creativity, emotion, and personality) and middle Vygotsky (interested in completely unrelated notions such as history, culture, mediation, tools, symbols, and internalization). I think there is indeed a very important distinction to be made, but I think it is more like the distinction between explanans and explanandum than either writer would like to admit. For example, isn?t an artwork a kind of instrument? Doesn?t art work involve the use of both tools and symbols? It is more than a little suggestive that both Rey and Veresov appear to distinguish a ?real? Vygotsky concerned with individual development from a false, objectivist and institutionalized Vygotsky concerned with Marxist psychology and (to link this thread to the last discussion article) the Soviet social project. Rey does take this project much further than Veresov, and tries to split Vygotsky away from cultural-historical psychology altogether (whereas Veresov simply tries to split off the early Vygotsky from Marxism). b) Both Rey and Veresov stress that they are the FIRST to make this distinction (and thus ignore each other, as well as writers (Mauricio Ernica, Gunilla Lindqvist) who have made similar points in a less ambitious, less absolutist and (as a result) more acceptable fashion. For example, van der Veer and Kozulin have taken into account the clear examples of reflexological terminology in ?Psychology of Art? (even idiots like me! See ?The Real Ideal? in the LCHC discussion papers pigeonhole); actually the whole work uses as a unit of analysis an ?aesthetic reaction?. Oppositely, there are those pesky works by Vygotsky himself, e.g. ?Imagination and Creativity in the Adolescent? which came out in 1931 at the very nadir of Vygotsky?s supposedly ?objectivist? period. Of course, knowing how hard it is to get published in MCA, I quite understand the temptation to make extravagant claims of priority and extreme claims of periodization. Still, I can?t help but wonder how it is that our respected, (even feared!) reviewers could so easily have had the wool pulled over their eyes! c) Rey appears to me to be trying to establish sense as a psychological category rather than a linguistic one, that is, as a matter of belief and identity rather than speaking role and reference. I agree that simply putting in culture between the subject and object in the form of an objective tool-like ?meaning? will not work; the historico-cultural project founded by LCHC was to examine differences in cognition made by culture, and not simply material artefacts. I also agree that calling both tools and symbols "artefacts" (ideal or material) does not do anything other than to account for them historically and genetically; it doesn't, for example, help to distinguish them functionally and structurally. But I don?t think that trying to de-historicize and de-culturize sense will work either, for a very simple reason: there is no such thing as sense without established (historic-culturally established) meaning, just as there is no meaning-making without actual sense, without mentally reconstructing the mind of the interlocutor.Psychological sense without (historic-cultural) meaning and meaning without sense are both both meaningless and senseless. It seems to me that sense without historico-cultural meaning is a bladeless knife without a handle. That is because sense is not simply part of the user-friendly handle of a word; it is also inherent to the way that it is interpreted by the interpreter. Similarly, meaning is not simply part of the environment-friendly ?blade? of the word: it is inherent to the way the speaker dissects the reality he has gathered, hunted, and brought home (Whorf, of course!). Last night (well, the night before last now), my wife and I returned to Seoul. Our suitcase arrived in baggage claim with a yellow plastic lock that played a pleasant ringtone, but was accompanied by a plainclothes policeman who notified us that our bag had been identified as containing a dangerous weapon. About four days ago, coming down from the mountains in Western Sichuan, we passed through one of the villages of the Tushan people, who, until about a generation ago, were a nomadic forest tribe practicing slash and burn agriculture to supplement a diet of hunting and gathering. The area is now a panda reserve. So the government has endeavoured to persuade the Tushan to settle in villages like the one we passed through, called Bai Ma (although I noticed that there were still slash and burn plots dotting the mountainside around the village). The villagers, erstwhile hunters and gatherers, don't really know how to make a living, so they flag your car down and try to sell you stuff. I bought about a kilo of their yellow plums, obviously gathered in the forest and very tasty, and my brother-in-law found some watermelon knives he liked, which had sheaths made of the horn of some animal and hilts beautifully sculpted with the profile of an old man. The Tushan insisted that the old man was Genghis Khan, a man some of them claim as an ancestor. (Of course, 8% of Asian men are descended from him, but it is also said that he died of dysentery contracted in the Gansu town of Tianshui [literally, ?heavenly water?!]) When we left for Seoul, my brother-in-law looked at the old man on the handle and decided one of them would make a good present for my father (a.k.a. Genghis Khan). But the customs official who took it out of our suitcase only had eyes for the blade: scimitar shaped and about twenty centimeters long. (Who knows, maybe Genghis Khan was really trying to cut a watermelon with it, and the blade slipped. My poor brother-in-law had forgotten the most important difference between tools and symbols, and also between meaning and sense, between social usage and personal use; one, but only one, can be used in an autocentric way. Or not, as the case may be. David Kellogg (Unemployed) On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 5:45 PM David Kellogg wrote: > I didn't mean to confuse you, Annalisa. But Andy and and the various > philosohers on this list have used expressions that I in turn find very > confusing and I suppose I have also confused in my own turn. It is one of > the hazards of putting together people from different backgrounds without > proper intellectual social distancing. > > Here are two statements from philosophy that linguists like me find > confusing: > > a) Everything is one hundred percent mediated and one hundred percent > unmediated. > > b) (I)t is argument about the beginnings of philosophy, not psychology, > and certainly about the distinction between basic and higher mental > functions. > > I find the first statement confusing, because it seems to me to rule out > "more" or "less" as applied to mediated and unmediated. This rules out the > possibility that children develop more mediated functions (e.g. volitional > attention, semanticized perception, logical memory, verbal thinking) on the > basis of less mediated functions (involuntary attention, optical/aural > perception, eidetic memory, and purely practical intelligence). Andy has > now amended this to two separate yes/no questions ("Is objectivity mediated > for the subject?" "One hundred percent yes." "Is objectivity unmediated for > the subject?" "One hundred percent yes"). By separating it into two > different clauses, Andy is reproducing the grammar of the original Hegel in > dialogic form, but he is also acknowledging the inadequacy of the > translation that he announced he would not discuss because it is too clear. > > I find the second statement even more confusing: I am not sure how one can > discuss the distinction between basic and higher mental functions without > beginning psychology, but you can apply to Andy for details on what exactly > he meant. > > Vygotsky (and Vera John-Steiner, and the other leading representtive of > the New Mexico school which you are associated with) believed in higher and > lower functions. This was common among psychologists at the time, but it > was not a way of quantitatively comparing subjects. It was usually > interpreted in a dualistic way--like a two story house, with immediate > perception on the lower floor (animals and infants) and higher perception > on the upper (angels and aduls), immediate attention (like when you hear > thunder and jump) on the lower floor and voluntary attention (the ability > to listen to somebody's meanings and edit out all the pauses and fillers) > on the upper. > > Vygotsky pointed out that the two were just as linked as they were > distinct (that was what Ruqaiya Hasan always got out of Vygotsky and she > was right). Vygotsky also thought that all the rooms in the supposed upper > floor were semantically joined through word meanings (because word meaning > participates in the formation of all higher functions) creating a unified > system. This is not true of lower functions: involuntary attention and > practical intelligence are not developmentally linked the way that > voluntary attention and verbal intelligence are, We know that Vygotsky > criticized his own early work for seeing the higher and lower functions in > the two-story house way and not seeing that the higher functions are > systemically linked. A lot of my own interest in systemic-functional > linguistics, an approach that has nothing to do with the sentence > diagramming you refer to, is about seeing those higher functions as > systemically linked through wording (lexicogrammar), and not simply through > word meaning (lexis). The latter was Ruqaiya's critique of Vygotsky, and > Andy has strongly objected to it as treating Vygotsky as a linguist. > > Brabantio: What profane wretch art thou? > Iago: I am one, sir, that comes to tell you your daughter and the Moor are > making the beast with two backs. > Brabantio: Thou art a linguist. > Iago: You are---a philosopher. > > (Othello, Act I Scene I, but perhaps my logical/verbal memory misgives me > there at the end...) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!ULaDKPRba7sFsE5yqD_RsPAXvTvGmVIwbJ6HABSMlOISAuxRKfo4HF3WuYJvar_-2uej-w$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!ULaDKPRba7sFsE5yqD_RsPAXvTvGmVIwbJ6HABSMlOISAuxRKfo4HF3WuYJvar82zlMwpw$ > > > > > On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 4:56 AM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >> Hi David and Andy, >> >> When I read this: >> >> "b) Chiaroscuro paintings are equally both dark and light in >> Caravaggio's time and in our own." >> >> >> I would have interpreted this to mean that paintings are 50% dark and 50% >> light. Not 100% dark and 100% light. I suppose this depends upon where one >> places the parentheses. I can't remember exactly how to diagram sentences, >> and I would be difficult for me to do that here in an email client, but >> what of this: >> >> (Chiaroscura (paintings)) are (equally both) ((dark) and (light)) (in >> (Carraviagio's (time)) and (in (our (own [time]))). >> >> or >> >> (Chiaroscuro (paintings)) are (equally (both ((dark) and (light))) (in >> Caravaggio's (time)) and (in (our own ([time]))). >> >> I would never have presumed something could be 100% X and 100% Y unless >> we were talking about two separate, but joined, entities. >> >> In that case I'd interpret this to mean that the definition of >> Chiaroscuro paintings no matter what historical period have two types, what >> might be called white paintings and what might be called black paintings. >> Say, were there an opposite of Film Noir, called Film Blanc. And these were >> related paintings because of similar painting methods and composition, and >> even subject matter, but one is predominantly dark the other predominantly >> white. >> >> Of course nothing like this does exist in Art History, but it is >> conceivable to discuss painting genres in just this way. >> >> --- >> >> Then, I also wanted to point out that psychological can be biological (as >> in what the brain and nervous system, etc does to take in perceptual data, >> and respond accordingly, such as with walking, balancing a cup in one's >> hand not to spill the contents, or vigilance to protect one's children >> while walking through a crowded airport). This include the limbic system, >> yes? >> >> And psychological can be introspective (I'm not sure whether it is the >> proper word, forgive me, but I mean the subjective experience of the person >> who retrieves memories, lays down neuroses to compensate from past traumas, >> enjoy fantasies or imaginations, or simply possesses a more unobstructed >> sense of self (than a less unobstructed sense)). >> >> If one can accept this dualism in the human body it is possible for >> experience to be 100% mediated and 100% unmediated, depending upon which >> system is being activated and how the two are working in tandem or >> separately, or whether one is overpowering the other. >> >> Isn't it so? >> >> Also, I have a curious question to ask. What is the dividing line between >> higher function and lower function? Are there classifications? >> >> Is this scenario possible: >> >> In Subject A there are 20 lower functions and 5 higher functions >> In Subject B there are 20 lower functions and 20 higher functions >> In Subject C there are 10 lower functions and 20 higher functions. >> In Subject D there are 5 lower functions and 5 lower functions >> >> Taking age out of the equation, in that we suppose they are all the same >> age, and also for control, they have similar environments, caregiving, >> nutrition, and education, etc. I would ask this: >> >> Does a lower function imply a corresponding higher function? In that >> lower function 1x will in time with proper environmental inputs develop >> into the higher function 1X? Or can 2 lower functions only produce 1 higher >> function? >> >> Or can 3 lower function produce in varying proportions 5-8 higher >> functions. >> >> Such as function 1ab + 2cd creates function 1ac, 2ac, 1bd, 2abd, 1bcd, >> 2ad, 1ad, etc. >> >> In Subject A, can we assume that there is potential to develop 15 (or >> more) additional functions in the subject's future? >> >> In Subject B, can we assume that there can be still further development >> beyond 20 higher functions that grow out from the original 20 lower ones? >> >> In Subject C, can we assume that superior plasticity has afforded "more" >> development from less available resources, such as a person with a >> disabiilty (like blindness, deafness) has developed additional higher >> functions most others would never develop, say a keen sense of smell, >> haptic ability, or visual acuity? >> >> In Subject D, can we assume that no further development can occur because >> there is not enough "material" present in the lower functions for any >> extended development into higher functions, such as an infant suffering >> from brain asphyxiation during birth. >> >> Just trying to understand how one is slicing the orange, or peeling it, >> etc. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of David Kellogg >> *Sent:* Friday, May 22, 2020 3:39 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> >> But this is not the exact quote. It is only a translation. The exact >> quote is this: >> >> >> >> ("...) da? es nichts gibt, nichts im Himmel oder in der Natur oder im >> Geiste oder wo es sei, was nicht ebenso die Unmittelbarkeit enth?lt als die >> Vermittlung, so da? sich diese beiden Bestimmungen als ungetrennt und >> untrennbar und jener Gegensatz sich als ein Nichtiges zeigt." (There is >> nothing given, neither in heaven nor in nature nor in mind nor in wherever >> it may be, which is not equally the unmediated contain alongside the >> mediated, so that both of these two determinations (i.e. determining >> something as unmediated or as mediated--DK) prove to be inseparable and >> inextricable, and their contrast (or their opposition--DK) proves nul." >> >> >> What's the difference between the exact quote and the translation? As I >> pointed out to Andy, the translation puts "equally" and "both" in the same >> clause, while the original German has them in two different clauses. >> Compare: >> >> a) Chiaroscuro paintings are both dark and light, and this was equally >> true for Caravaggio as for us. >> >> b) Chiaroscuro paintings are equally both dark and light in Caravaggio's >> time and in our own. >> >> Statement a) is true enough, although as Mike points out it is the >> beginning of a concrete genetic analysis and not the end. But statement b) >> is utterly false: it puts an end to all genetic analysis and abolishes >> development altogether. It says, uselessly, that all paintings are 100% >> dark and 100% light and so the only genetic analysis possible is one of >> changing self-consciousness, either in the painter or the viewer. This is >> an idealist dialectic, and it is certainly not a historical one. >> >> Similarly, it is one thing to say that all psychological functions are >> both mediated and unmediated, and this is equally true for lower functions >> as it is for higher functions. For example, when I look at a painting by >> Caravaggio or a film by Derek Jarman, the rod cells in my retina and my >> optic nerve are mediating the experience as well as my cerebral cortex and >> my biographical knowledge of Caravaggio. >> >> But it's very different to say that all psychological functions are >> equally both mediated and unmediated, or 100% mediated and 100% >> unmediated. In addition to the arithmetical absurdinty, this does not allow >> me to distinguish between lower and higher psychological functions. >> >> (And I do think this is how Andy gets his notion that when two things are >> different we cannot say that one is more developed than the other. Yet >> higher psychological functions do indeed presuppose lower functions but not >> the other way around. Andy calls this difference and not development; I >> call it equally both difference and development.) >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!ULaDKPRba7sFsE5yqD_RsPAXvTvGmVIwbJ6HABSMlOISAuxRKfo4HF3WuYJvar_-2uej-w$ >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * >> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!ULaDKPRba7sFsE5yqD_RsPAXvTvGmVIwbJ6HABSMlOISAuxRKfo4HF3WuYJvar82zlMwpw$ >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 2:13 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> And it is worth noting that Hegel wrote this in the 1810s simply on the >> basis of logical criticism of Kant and Jacobi (a contemporary sharing some >> views with Descartes). And yet it took more than a century (if I'm not >> mistaken) to make its way into hard science. Here's how he explains it: >> >> ? 66 >> That said, we continue to stand by the position that immediate knowing is >> to be taken as a fact. With this, however, the consideration is directed >> towards the field of experience, to a psychological phenomenon. ? In this >> respect, it should be noted that it is one of the most common experiences >> that truths (which one knows very well to be the result of the most >> intricate and highly mediated considerations) present themselves >> immediately in the consciousness of someone conversant with such knowledge. >> Like everybody else who has been trained in a science, the mathematician >> immediately has at his fingertips solutions to which a very complicated >> analysis has led. Every educated person has immediately present in his or >> her knowing a host of universal viewpoints and principles that have >> resulted only from repeated reflection and long life experience. The >> facility we have achieved in any sphere of knowing, also in fine art, in >> technical dexterity, consists precisely in having those sorts of >> familiarity, those kinds of activity immediately present in one?s >> consciousness in the case at hand, indeed, even in an activity directed >> outwards and in one?s limbs. ? In all these cases the immediacy of knowing >> does not only not exclude its mediation; to the contrary, they are so >> connected that immediate knowing is even the product and result of knowing >> that has been mediated. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 22/05/2020 1:59 pm, mike cole wrote: >> >> Both HAVE TO BE present at once, Andy or there is no perception. >> Mike >> >> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 8:55 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Yes, last week in our Hegel Reading Group we read the section in the >> Shorter Logic, following his critiques of Kant and Descartes, Hegel >> explains how thought is both immediate *and* mediated, and even over >> Zoom I could see the clouds gradually receding from my young students' >> eyes. All of a sudden the whole fruitless argument between scepticism and >> dogmatism, relativism and historicism, fell away. The most difficult thing >> to grasp was how perception was not just immediate and mediated, but both >> were essentially present in the same moment, how without the cultural >> training of the senses the brain could not make any sense at all of the >> nervous stimulation of the organs of sight, etc. >> >> Andy >> >> PS. the exact quote from Hegel is: "there is nothing, nothing in heaven, >> or in nature or in mind or anywhere else which does not equally contain >> both immediacy and mediation" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/hl/hlbegin.htm*0092__;Iw!!Mih3wA!ULaDKPRba7sFsE5yqD_RsPAXvTvGmVIwbJ6HABSMlOISAuxRKfo4HF3WuYJvar-XraAchA$ >> >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 22/05/2020 9:20 am, mike cole wrote: >> >> This is a point I have struggled to make for many years, Andy. I didn't >> know I was quoting Hegel: >> >> Hegel: >> 'Everything is both immediate and mediated." >> >> The challenge is to rise to the concrete with this abstraction or its >> just la la la. >> >> mike >> >> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 6:42 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Of course, Annalisa, I agree that Science is a moral practice, but that >> is not what is at issue here. >> >> >> Two issues concern me with what you have said: (1) the question of "who >> decides?" and (2) the quantification of development as in "more evolved" >> bringing with it the implication of moral value attached to development. >> >> >> (1) The discovery of the "social construction of reality" was an >> achievement of the Left, the progressives, with people like the Critical >> Psychologists, the theorists of postmodernism and post-structural feminists >> in the 1970s an 80s, who exposed how taken-for-granted facts along with the >> truths of Science were on closer inspection ideological products of >> dominant social groups. Of course, how reality is *seen *is an >> inseparable part of how reality *is*. This insight led to a range of >> powerful theoretical and practical critiques of all aspects of society. >> Feminists offered an alternative way of interpreting reality as a powerful >> lever for changing that reality by undermining patriarchal structures and >> certainties. So far so good. But today, in 2020, it is not progressives who >> are asking "who decides?" and calling into question the very idea of truth >> and fact: it is Donald Trump and Rudi Giuliani. Quite honestly, this >> outcome was always implicit in the postmodern and poststructuralist >> critique. Or, could I say: "Donald Trump is a more evolved form of Judith >> Butler" if I thought in those terms, which I don't. >> >> >> Hegel takes up this problem with the maxim: "Everything is both immediate >> and mediated." Yes, social interests dominant in a certain social domain by >> definition determine what is true in that domain (though remember, every >> social domain is finite and has its boundaries). But that is not just by >> saying something about an* independently existing* reality which can be >> subject to any number of *alternative* representations (as Kant would >> have it), but rather the dominant social interests *determine that >> reality itself*. They do that both *immediately *and * through the ideal >> representation* of that reality which is *part of that reality*. You >> can't "decide" by a purely discursive moves - you have to *change *that >> reality. You do that with the weapons of both theoretical and practical >> critique. >> >> >> What this means is that you can study the documents (assuming you weren't >> personally present) of some past dispute and see with your own eyes how and >> why some people formulated new word meanings, and began to use these new >> word meaning(s) in their own communication, and thereby facilitated others >> from using this word meaning, and the relevant concepts, in their work, and >> so on. >> >> >> (2) As perhaps I have illustrated in my example above that there is no >> implication of "higher" in development. In my own education, it was Sylvia >> Scribner's "Uses of History" (1985) which explained this to me. "Higher" >> implies comparison and comparison in turn implies *interchangeability*. >> For example, if I was considering whether to emigrate to the US or France, >> I might consider public safety as a metric and decide that France was >> superior to the US and make my decision accordingly. Or, I might consider >> job availability for an English-speaking monoglot like me as the metric, >> and decide that the US was superior to France. But to decide that the US is >> superior to France or vice versa without the choice and the relevant metric >> is the moral judgment which neither you nor I find acceptable. They're just >> different. >> >> >> Understanding word meanings and concepts entails an analysis of *both *how >> the word is used in the field in question, and the history as to how it >> came to be so. Using the concept of "germ cell," I can work my way back and >> forth through an etymological field, forensically, like a detective, until >> I can connect the particular use of the word which emerged as a germ cell >> at some earlier time, in some situation where the implication of choosing >> that word meaning was abundantly clear to all, which allows me to see >> *why* someone felt the need (now forgotten) to introduce the word >> meaning and what it's absence would mean here and now, where it is already >> taken for granted. >> >> >> My apologies for the unacceptably long message, which is much against my >> own mores, but I don't know how to clarify these issues more succinctly. >> >> >> Andy >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 20/05/2020 3:51 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> Hi Andy, >> >> I suppose the issue about being on a branch of evolution has more to do >> with who decides what the branch is. Is it time? or is it topical? or is it >> based upon the interlocutors? >> >> If we say one word usage is more "evolved" than another, I suppose I am >> just pushing back on that because who decides what is more evolved? >> >> Forgive me, but can we ever say that if something is more "evolved" it is >> actually better? What do we actually mean when we say something is evolved? >> >> What if one term lasts over a longer arc of time than another usage? It >> seems if we use the evolution rubric, it would be considered more "fit" >> than the one that is changing over the same period of time. >> >> I do find it helpful that you to bring up the germ cell and how that >> concept pertains to analysis. That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm glad to >> know that to assign the parentheses does entail an ideological move, and >> that that can't be escaped. As long as we know what the ideology is, there >> is transparency in our analysis. >> >> I do think moral evaluations are worth including on all discussions, not >> necessarily to forbid discussions or scientific pursuits, but to use as >> landmarks to keep our bearings. Scientific concepts have a way of not being >> inclusive of contexts (i.e., lived experiences) or being grounded, right? >> >> Perhaps this is what made Vygotsky such a humane and compassionate >> scientific thinker is that he could understand how scientific concepts can >> be abusive tools for oppression. Anchoring them in lived experience shows >> their validity. Would this be a fair statement to you, Andy? >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Andy Blunden >> >> *Sent:* Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:23 PM >> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> >> Annalisa, "where does history start"? Effectively there is no starting >> point, and the choosing of a starting point is always an ideological move. >> Foucault does this to great effect. Ilyenkov deals with this in his book >> "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's Capital" and explains the need for >> what he calls the "logical-historical method." To short circuit the >> complexities of reading Ilyenkov, in CHAT we rely on the identification of >> the unit of analysis or "germ cell" to anchor our historical investigation. >> >> >> "Sociogenesis" is just Latin for "social development," the word I used. >> But if you are going to ascribe a moral value to "evolution" and then >> reject the concept on that basis, you'd better also reject "development" >> and all the "geneses" and evolution of species by natural selection and all >> modern biology while you are at it. Alternatively, you could choose *not* >> to ascribe moral values to scientific concepts, then the whole of science >> is open to you. >> >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 18/05/2020 3:25 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> Hi Andy (& VO's), >> >> I think that that was my point, that we cannot capture everything in the >> word to describe the theory. And that is because of the limit of our >> language. >> >> Even where genesis actually is, where something starts can be difficult >> to pinpoint. I mean where does History actually start? >> >> These words that you mention phylogenesis, ethnogenesis, ontogenesis, are >> words that are like brackets of a pair of parentheses. Who decides where to >> put them? (And why not sociogenesis?) >> >> I'm not sure it's correct to say the choice of a word locates the user on >> a branch of a cultural evolutionary tree, because then that starts to mean >> that one speaker is more evolved than another based on the use of a word. >> >> It might be better to say that the choice of a word locates the user to a >> particular context. I could live with that. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Andy Blunden >> >> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:27 PM >> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> >> You're never going to succeed in formally capturing the full scope of the >> theory in a word, Annalisa. "socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity >> theory" still leave out biology and Darwin, which is a part of our theory, >> too. >> >> >> It is sometimes said that human development is the coincidence of *four* >> processes: *phylogenesis *(i.e., evolution of the species), cultural >> development (*ethnogenesis*, the development of technology *and *language), >> *social development* (one and the same culture has different classes and >> political groups side by side) and *ontogenesis *(even twins can grow up >> very differently according to the experiences (*perezhivaniya*) they go >> through). I tried to describe this in: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/ontogenesis.htm__;!!Mih3wA!ULaDKPRba7sFsE5yqD_RsPAXvTvGmVIwbJ6HABSMlOISAuxRKfo4HF3WuYJvar8OJnks2A$ >> >> >> >> But if you look into the history of a word what you will inevitably find >> is that at some point (in time and social space) there was some dispute, >> and this dispute was either (1) resolved by both parties agreeing and >> marking this agreement by the coining of a new word meaning or the dropping >> of a word meaning altogether, or (2) there is a split and one or both sides >> of the split adopt a word meaning which distinguishes them from the other >> side (structuralism's favourite trope) or variations on the above scenarios. >> >> >> So the choice of a word tends to locate the user on a branch in the >> cultural evolutionary tree. >> >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 17/05/2020 11:56 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> David K & VO's >> >> What pray-tell is an anthropologue? >> >> I am divided (pun intended) about saying that sociocultural = social + >> culture, when they are intertwined holistically. To me, sociocultural >> points to a space in between, or perhaps better said to a context of >> interactions between individuals (who form a society) that are easily >> accepted among them and practiced over time. >> >> We can conceptually parse out the social and the cultural, but don't we >> do that because of the words and not because of the ostensible reality >> going on interactionally? Can we always understand something by dissecting >> it into parts? >> >> Again, this seems to be the limit of language, not of the conceptual >> context or content. >> >> In a sense to use the term "sociocultural" is to grab the tail of the >> tiger. The tail of the tiger is still the tiger, but perhaps a more >> manageable one than to grab its head. >> >> Perhaps this is why Vygotskians just call themselves Vygotskians to align >> themselves with the source of the first theories rather than to later >> conceptions and other developments (i.e. Leontiev, etc). Just thinking out >> loud. >> >> Another argument is that if we want to be all inclusive, then we have to >> include tool-use, as it's not the social, the culture, and the history, but >> also the language and tools used. I realize some practitioners would say >> that language is no different than a tool, but I feel language is >> different, even though it may have a similar cognitive response in the mind >> as would using a tool. >> >> Activity suggests tool use, though not always. Consider dance, or >> storytelling, or going for a walk. >> >> How about: socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory??? >> >> Yes! I am writing this a little tongue in cheek. I hope you do not mind. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalsia >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of David Kellogg >> >> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:14 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> It's a very domain-specific umbrella, like those cane-brollies that go >> with a bowler. "Sociocultural" is strongly preferred used in second >> language acquisition, thanks to the influence of Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf >> and Matthew Poehner; I have never seen "cultural historical" used in this >> literature. But "cultural-historical" is similarly preferred in psychology >> and anthropology, thanks to the influence of J.V. Wertsch, Mike >> Cole, Martin Packer and Andy Blunden; that's really why we are having this >> discussion on what "socio-cultural" might mean on a list largely populated >> by roving psychologists and nomadic anthropologues. >> >> Interestingly, the Francophones prefer "historico-cultural", using the >> argument that you can understand the process without the product but not >> the product without the process. I stopped using "sociocultural" because I >> thought it was redundant, but now I am really not sure of this: it seems to >> me that the relationship is a similar one--you can study society as process >> without studying its cultural product (e.g. as demographics, economics, >> statistics) but you can't really study culture without some understanding >> of the process of its formation. >> >> There was a similar disagreement in systemic functional linguistics >> between Halliday and Jim Martin over the term "socio-semiotic". Martin said >> that it was redundant, because there couldn't be any semiotic without >> society. Halliday rather flippantly replied that ants had a society without >> a semiotics, and at the time it seemed to me that this was a non >> sequitur, first of all because ants don't really have a society in >> our sense (precisely because there is no such thing as an ant history >> separate from phylogenesis on the one hand and ontogenesis on the other) >> and secondly because ants most definitely do have a semiotics, albeit one >> based on chemistry and not perception as ours is. >> >> It seems to me, in retrospect, that the relationship between the semiotic >> and the social is much more like the relationship between the social and >> the biological, or even the biological and the chemical. The semiotic is a >> certain level of organization that the social has, but there are >> other levels, just as biology is a certain kind of chemical organization >> which does not exclude other, nonbiological ways organizing chemicals, >> and chemistry is a kind of physical organization which doesn't exclude >> sub-chemical organizations. >> >> Perhaps we can think of the relationship between culture and society in >> the same way? >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!ULaDKPRba7sFsE5yqD_RsPAXvTvGmVIwbJ6HABSMlOISAuxRKfo4HF3WuYJvar_-2uej-w$ >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * >> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!ULaDKPRba7sFsE5yqD_RsPAXvTvGmVIwbJ6HABSMlOISAuxRKfo4HF3WuYJvar82zlMwpw$ >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David H Kirshner wrote: >> >> 4. As an umbrella term for any sociogenetic approach. >> >> Isn?t that its current usage? >> >> David >> >> >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *On Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar >> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >> >> >> >> Hi Andy, and VO's, >> >> >> >> What fascinates me is that the word "sociocultural" has a lot of >> different facets in terms of how the word was used in different contexts. >> It seems there are three I've been able to pick out. >> >> 1. as a derisive term in early Soviet history. >> 2. as an empowering term from Latin American voices. >> 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist "brand" at the height of the Cold >> War in the US. >> >> I'm not sure if I've done justice in the manner that I've represented >> that, but it is a well-intended attempt. Are there others? >> >> >> >> What I don't understand fully is whether there must be ONE explanation >> how the term came to be, or ONE definition of what it actually means. Can't >> it be polysemantic? polycontextual? >> >> >> >> If that is what's happening, then it makes sense that there would be an >> ongoing controversy about which one is the right definition or reason for >> not using it, depending on the interlocutor. >> >> >> >> If we are to talk about who used the term first, and that's where the >> value/authority holds, then all that tells us is that for those who value >> who used the term first. that's where the authority is. >> >> >> >> If we talk about the emotional attachment of the word as it is used in >> context and that's where the value/authority holds, then that tells us for >> those who value the most personal attachment to the word, that's where the >> authority is. >> >> >> >> If we talk about how the word was used functionally, where the >> value/authority holds in its efficacy, then all that tells is that for >> those who value whether the word works or not, that's where the authority >> is. >> >> >> >> I'm not sure one can put any of one these over the other two (or if there >> are more than that, if there are more). All we can say I suppose is whether >> in a particular context is the word "sociocultural" appropriate or not? >> >> >> >> I do find that this debate has begun to have its own life, this debate >> over the use of a word. I've begun doubt it will ever cease. >> >> >> >> One day the discussion will be how one used to debate about the term, >> first everyone was this way about the word, than they were that way about >> the word, and many large camps were formed in XXXX year to say why the word >> should not be used, but then X years later other large camps formed to say >> it is fine to use the word. I suppose it will only be when the debate >> ceases will it come to pass that the debate will be forgotten. But will >> that cessation solidify the use or non-use of the word? >> >> >> >> I understand the reasons for saying "cultural psychology." But for those >> swimming in a culture where behaviorism is considered the soul of >> psychology, adding "cultural" becomes a sad necessity. Even then, that >> necessity only depends upon how one sees culture, as either as an additive, >> an integral ingredient of psychology, or its basis. I believe I've read on >> the list that one should be able to say "psychology" and just *know* that >> it includes culture. I don't think we are there yet. >> >> >> >> Then that would be my argument to use "sociocultural" to understand it >> includes history. CHAT is sort of a defensive term (well, it is an >> acronym). But then... it leaves out "social" and is that OK? We certainly >> should not say sociocultural historical activity theory because that >> acronym is very unfulfilling. What is nice about CHAT though is that to >> chat is an activity of speech, and there is a implied meaning that also >> pertains to Vygotskian theories, and therefore meaningful. >> >> >> >> In a sense, it's not the meaning that we are arguing over, but how the >> limitations of our particular language fails to convey a meaning with such >> precision that it thereby to parses away any other inappropriate meaning. >> I'm just not sure that the project is one that can be achieved >> successfully, even if it succeeds for an interim. >> >> >> >> At the same time I can see why story of the elephant and the blind men >> also have a part to play in our understandings and assumptions. >> >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Andy Blunden >> *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM >> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >> >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> >> Annalisa, I have only been talking and writing about Vygotsky and co. >> since about 2000 and have been openly Marxist since the 1960s (indeed, >> Vygotsky is core to how I understand Marx) and never had any reason not to >> be. But it is true that when Mike first went to Moscow, it was at the >> height of the Cold War, and when he and others first brought Vygotsky's >> ideas to the USA, there was a lot of resistance to their Marxist content. I >> think the naming issue only arose as Vygotsky and the others began to build >> a real following. The issues with the choice of name change over the years, >> as you say. I prefer" CHAT," but sometimes I use "Cultural Psychology" and >> sometimes I use "Activity Theory" depending on the context. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> Andy, et al, >> >> >> >> I sort of came to this a little late in the thread, but I can offer that >> Vera John-Steiner didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian >> theory, but as I learn more about the word (thank you Mike), I can see how >> once a word is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard for the >> association to be broken. >> >> >> >> I think it's that way with words all the time coming and going out of >> favor, or meanings shifting, like the game of telephone, but across >> generations and cultures. >> >> >> >> Might I contribute to the discussion by asking whether the use of >> "sociocultural" was also a means of making the theories more available in >> the West (at least in the US). It seems there was redscare (you are welcome >> read the double entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as you like) >> prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the Marxist "brand" to >> access the actual theories on child development? In other words, to >> depoliticize the science? >> >> >> >> I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but as time passes, I can >> see its problems. >> >> >> >> For me, I had preferred the word because historical was always a given >> for me. In concern of the here and now, the real difficulty I had thought >> was understanding the social- how interactions between the child and the >> caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the -cultural, how the culture >> impacts thought, those things are more of the micro level, but also >> sociocultural, how the two also can interact and influence one another and >> that combined bears its own signature on the mind and its development. As >> far as History (capital H) that is sort of difficult to measure when we are >> talking about child development as there is very little history that a >> child has, unless we are talking about genetics, I suppose. >> >> >> >> Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect and am enriched by the >> discourse in which we now we find ourselves immersed about it so thanks to >> all for this. >> >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Andy Blunden >> >> *Sent:* Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM >> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> -- >> >> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, >> translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >> --------------------------------------------------- >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!ULaDKPRba7sFsE5yqD_RsPAXvTvGmVIwbJ6HABSMlOISAuxRKfo4HF3WuYJvar9xo5FiUg$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200523/8a0b8209/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sat May 23 19:29:25 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 02:29:25 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> <36147263-58ba-6908-ce60-bc367719772e@marxists.org> <71876107-fad8-3a23-2bd9-35d13d923268@marxists.org> <76d5fed9-4397-5cf6-aed4-d537df05af17@marxists.org> , Message-ID: Hello David, I am not confused, I'm just asking for more clarity of definition. Though upon reflection, perhaps really what I'm asking is where you are placing your parentheses. I didn't really think I was of the New Mexico school of Vygotskians, but maybe I am. If that is how you would like to ID me I don't think I mind. Just do not admonish me that I am late for dinner. I never was of the understanding that lower and higher functions were separated. And perhaps this confusion of thinking that they are, arises from trying to understand what is lower and what is higher. Which comes to a revisitation of everyday and scientific concepts. I am not remembering clearly, but I seem to recall Vera saying that scientific concepts as a phrase had its limitations in describing appropriately. I am thinking (but am not certain at the moment) Vera said scientific concepts, while rooted in everyday concepts. where always mediated. Everyday concepts, on the other hand could be mediated or unmediated and are more inclined upon perception (and therefore pre-language). So we get into whether the word meets its utility. Sort of like what does "primitive" actually mean. That's why I asked the questions of Subjects A-D. Just to illustrate a way of thinking about diversity in humans. I certainly hope we never have to practice intellectual social distancing, that seems horrible. Though I do appreciate that a person's background cannot but assist upon how that person might interpret the elephant in the room. I think it may have escaped me where it was said that everything is 100% mediated and 100% unmediated. Philosophy and psychology are linked, are they not? I see Philosophers as the jet pilots and Psychologists as the jet mechanics. Certainly, philosophers can fly too close to the sun, but if they did that fairly consistently, psychologists would be pretty lonesome without them. If only to miss an intelligent a feedback loop about how sound their engines were working. And yes while philosophers need psychologists, perhaps it is not as much as psychologists need philosophers. I say this only because Plato, Aristotle, Buddha or Sankara thought their thoughts without the aid of psychologists, and so there is a tradition of flying solo, not necessarily coupled so closely to the dynamics of the physical world. Not to say that they fostered un-tethered thoughts, but that the "aerodynamics" was of a more lightweight architecture, not so baroque, byzantine, or modern. I still do not possess clarity about the assertion of something being mediated and unmediated at once, 100% of the time. Or have I botched the sentence, the chiaroscuro notwithstanding. Really it seems to pertain to whether or not one accepts that there is an objective reality, that is impossible to perceive unmediated; or that there cannot ever exist an objective reality only for the reason that it cannot be perceived unmediated. I don't think anyone believes that there is only one subjective reality (mine of course). It makes far more sense (to me) that that there is an objective reality that, once mediated, becomes a subjective reality, but this is not to throw out the objective reality, Instead they both exist at the same time. That is why, the object, out there, can be seen more than one way at the same time, in here. Words come into effect in attempting to communicate the object's existence and properties from one observer to another (even if the second party is just hearing a description of what was observed by the first observing party). The words are always carrying implied meanings. I am just connecting here, that the word's form, but moreso the implied meanings, reveal contexts negotiated by the cultural milieu, whether Big-C Cultural or little -c cultural. Perhaps these contexts are the handles of your knife metaphor, which might be simply functional, or shaped into an animal, or present a carved visage that invoke references of Ghengis Khan. (I'm not sure what you mean by wordings) But then knowledge, as I understand, occurs when the perceived object of knowledge is consistent with the knowledge of the object (in the mind). and that can only take place if the means of knowledge is adequately unobstructed. The object is mediated perceptually or with words (or both at the same time), in order to be known. Indeed there is always a feedback check going on, because it's possible that one day we will wake up to see the sky is purple at midday not blue as it once was. Though for now the sky remains blue. Of course all this is epistemological, but everything, whether philosophical or psychological has for its basis the means of knowing (something), otherwise everything becomes untethered from everything else. I cannot even put to words what sort of reality could exist without there being some basis for it. In order to detect change, there must be a constant to illumine that there is a change. Even a fleeting dream is using the material of myself, that upon waking, will disappear, but I am still there, as its basis for existing. I would also suggest that to insist that there is one way to know something, might be whether that knowing is objective or subjective. If there is more than one way to know an object that would be more about method and efficacy, not whether (or not) there is something to know that exists out there or in here (pointing to myself). If one insists X is objective knowledge, that would be a cause for so much doubt, because no one can know what is objective knowledge with any certainty. The scientific method is a perpetual question of asking, "Did I turn the thermostat down? I better check." However if one insists X is subjective knowledge, then one would have to test it and learn of its appropriateness in a particular given context. You are saying that Andy is conflating philosophical contexts with psychological ones, and his exercise of methods is wronghanded, as they were built for a different context. However, might you in turn conflating linguistic contexts with psychological ones? But is there a basis for linguistic, philosophical, and psychological contexts. If so, what is it? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 3:34 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] I didn't mean to confuse you, Annalisa. But Andy and and the various philosohers on this list have used expressions that I in turn find very confusing and I suppose I have also confused in my own turn. It is one of the hazards of putting together people from different backgrounds without proper intellectual social distancing. Here are two statements from philosophy that linguists like me find confusing: a) Everything is one hundred percent mediated and one hundred percent unmediated. b) (I)t is argument about the beginnings of philosophy, not psychology, and certainly about the distinction between basic and higher mental functions. I find the first statement confusing, because it seems to me to rule out "more" or "less" as applied to mediated and unmediated. This rules out the possibility that children develop more mediated functions (e.g. volitional attention, semanticized perception, logical memory, verbal thinking) on the basis of less mediated functions (involuntary attention, optical/aural perception, eidetic memory, and purely practical intelligence). Andy has now amended this to two separate yes/no questions ("Is objectivity mediated for the subject?" "One hundred percent yes." "Is objectivity unmediated for the subject?" "One hundred percent yes"). By separating it into two different clauses, Andy is reproducing the grammar of the original Hegel in dialogic form, but he is also acknowledging the inadequacy of the translation that he announced he would not discuss because it is too clear. I find the second statement even more confusing: I am not sure how one can discuss the distinction between basic and higher mental functions without beginning psychology, but you can apply to Andy for details on what exactly he meant. Vygotsky (and Vera John-Steiner, and the other leading representtive of the New Mexico school which you are associated with) believed in higher and lower functions. This was common among psychologists at the time, but it was not a way of quantitatively comparing subjects. It was usually interpreted in a dualistic way--like a two story house, with immediate perception on the lower floor (animals and infants) and higher perception on the upper (angels and aduls), immediate attention (like when you hear thunder and jump) on the lower floor and voluntary attention (the ability to listen to somebody's meanings and edit out all the pauses and fillers) on the upper. Vygotsky pointed out that the two were just as linked as they were distinct (that was what Ruqaiya Hasan always got out of Vygotsky and she was right). Vygotsky also thought that all the rooms in the supposed upper floor were semantically joined through word meanings (because word meaning participates in the formation of all higher functions) creating a unified system. This is not true of lower functions: involuntary attention and practical intelligence are not developmentally linked the way that voluntary attention and verbal intelligence are, We know that Vygotsky criticized his own early work for seeing the higher and lower functions in the two-story house way and not seeing that the higher functions are systemically linked. A lot of my own interest in systemic-functional linguistics, an approach that has nothing to do with the sentence diagramming you refer to, is about seeing those higher functions as systemically linked through wording (lexicogrammar), and not simply through word meaning (lexis). The latter was Ruqaiya's critique of Vygotsky, and Andy has strongly objected to it as treating Vygotsky as a linguist. Brabantio: What profane wretch art thou? Iago: I am one, sir, that comes to tell you your daughter and the Moor are making the beast with two backs. Brabantio: Thou art a linguist. Iago: You are---a philosopher. (Othello, Act I Scene I, but perhaps my logical/verbal memory misgives me there at the end...) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!SKIoy3c_pSXEuChgB3MjmTbTNOs4jD78QtglW9E7nL6a-XQ0Rj1qFh9FQhQOp4D2EgQP7w$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SKIoy3c_pSXEuChgB3MjmTbTNOs4jD78QtglW9E7nL6a-XQ0Rj1qFh9FQhQOp4DmoFPLpw$ On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 4:56 AM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hi David and Andy, When I read this: "b) Chiaroscuro paintings are equally both dark and light in Caravaggio's time and in our own." I would have interpreted this to mean that paintings are 50% dark and 50% light. Not 100% dark and 100% light. I suppose this depends upon where one places the parentheses. I can't remember exactly how to diagram sentences, and I would be difficult for me to do that here in an email client, but what of this: (Chiaroscura (paintings)) are (equally both) ((dark) and (light)) (in (Carraviagio's (time)) and (in (our (own [time]))). or (Chiaroscuro (paintings)) are (equally (both ((dark) and (light))) (in Caravaggio's (time)) and (in (our own ([time]))). I would never have presumed something could be 100% X and 100% Y unless we were talking about two separate, but joined, entities. In that case I'd interpret this to mean that the definition of Chiaroscuro paintings no matter what historical period have two types, what might be called white paintings and what might be called black paintings. Say, were there an opposite of Film Noir, called Film Blanc. And these were related paintings because of similar painting methods and composition, and even subject matter, but one is predominantly dark the other predominantly white. Of course nothing like this does exist in Art History, but it is conceivable to discuss painting genres in just this way. --- Then, I also wanted to point out that psychological can be biological (as in what the brain and nervous system, etc does to take in perceptual data, and respond accordingly, such as with walking, balancing a cup in one's hand not to spill the contents, or vigilance to protect one's children while walking through a crowded airport). This include the limbic system, yes? And psychological can be introspective (I'm not sure whether it is the proper word, forgive me, but I mean the subjective experience of the person who retrieves memories, lays down neuroses to compensate from past traumas, enjoy fantasies or imaginations, or simply possesses a more unobstructed sense of self (than a less unobstructed sense)). If one can accept this dualism in the human body it is possible for experience to be 100% mediated and 100% unmediated, depending upon which system is being activated and how the two are working in tandem or separately, or whether one is overpowering the other. Isn't it so? Also, I have a curious question to ask. What is the dividing line between higher function and lower function? Are there classifications? Is this scenario possible: In Subject A there are 20 lower functions and 5 higher functions In Subject B there are 20 lower functions and 20 higher functions In Subject C there are 10 lower functions and 20 higher functions. In Subject D there are 5 lower functions and 5 lower functions Taking age out of the equation, in that we suppose they are all the same age, and also for control, they have similar environments, caregiving, nutrition, and education, etc. I would ask this: Does a lower function imply a corresponding higher function? In that lower function 1x will in time with proper environmental inputs develop into the higher function 1X? Or can 2 lower functions only produce 1 higher function? Or can 3 lower function produce in varying proportions 5-8 higher functions. Such as function 1ab + 2cd creates function 1ac, 2ac, 1bd, 2abd, 1bcd, 2ad, 1ad, etc. In Subject A, can we assume that there is potential to develop 15 (or more) additional functions in the subject's future? In Subject B, can we assume that there can be still further development beyond 20 higher functions that grow out from the original 20 lower ones? In Subject C, can we assume that superior plasticity has afforded "more" development from less available resources, such as a person with a disabiilty (like blindness, deafness) has developed additional higher functions most others would never develop, say a keen sense of smell, haptic ability, or visual acuity? In Subject D, can we assume that no further development can occur because there is not enough "material" present in the lower functions for any extended development into higher functions, such as an infant suffering from brain asphyxiation during birth. Just trying to understand how one is slicing the orange, or peeling it, etc. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Friday, May 22, 2020 3:39 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] But this is not the exact quote. It is only a translation. The exact quote is this: ("...) da? es nichts gibt, nichts im Himmel oder in der Natur oder im Geiste oder wo es sei, was nicht ebenso die Unmittelbarkeit enth?lt als die Vermittlung, so da? sich diese beiden Bestimmungen als ungetrennt und untrennbar und jener Gegensatz sich als ein Nichtiges zeigt." (There is nothing given, neither in heaven nor in nature nor in mind nor in wherever it may be, which is not equally the unmediated contain alongside the mediated, so that both of these two determinations (i.e. determining something as unmediated or as mediated--DK) prove to be inseparable and inextricable, and their contrast (or their opposition--DK) proves nul." What's the difference between the exact quote and the translation? As I pointed out to Andy, the translation puts "equally" and "both" in the same clause, while the original German has them in two different clauses. Compare: a) Chiaroscuro paintings are both dark and light, and this was equally true for Caravaggio as for us. b) Chiaroscuro paintings are equally both dark and light in Caravaggio's time and in our own. Statement a) is true enough, although as Mike points out it is the beginning of a concrete genetic analysis and not the end. But statement b) is utterly false: it puts an end to all genetic analysis and abolishes development altogether. It says, uselessly, that all paintings are 100% dark and 100% light and so the only genetic analysis possible is one of changing self-consciousness, either in the painter or the viewer. This is an idealist dialectic, and it is certainly not a historical one. Similarly, it is one thing to say that all psychological functions are both mediated and unmediated, and this is equally true for lower functions as it is for higher functions. For example, when I look at a painting by Caravaggio or a film by Derek Jarman, the rod cells in my retina and my optic nerve are mediating the experience as well as my cerebral cortex and my biographical knowledge of Caravaggio. But it's very different to say that all psychological functions are equally both mediated and unmediated, or 100% mediated and 100% unmediated. In addition to the arithmetical absurdinty, this does not allow me to distinguish between lower and higher psychological functions. (And I do think this is how Andy gets his notion that when two things are different we cannot say that one is more developed than the other. Yet higher psychological functions do indeed presuppose lower functions but not the other way around. Andy calls this difference and not development; I call it equally both difference and development.) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!SKIoy3c_pSXEuChgB3MjmTbTNOs4jD78QtglW9E7nL6a-XQ0Rj1qFh9FQhQOp4D2EgQP7w$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SKIoy3c_pSXEuChgB3MjmTbTNOs4jD78QtglW9E7nL6a-XQ0Rj1qFh9FQhQOp4DmoFPLpw$ On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 2:13 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: And it is worth noting that Hegel wrote this in the 1810s simply on the basis of logical criticism of Kant and Jacobi (a contemporary sharing some views with Descartes). And yet it took more than a century (if I'm not mistaken) to make its way into hard science. Here's how he explains it: ? 66 That said, we continue to stand by the position that immediate knowing is to be taken as a fact. With this, however, the consideration is directed towards the field of experience, to a psychological phenomenon. ? In this respect, it should be noted that it is one of the most common experiences that truths (which one knows very well to be the result of the most intricate and highly mediated considerations) present themselves immediately in the consciousness of someone conversant with such knowledge. Like everybody else who has been trained in a science, the mathematician immediately has at his fingertips solutions to which a very complicated analysis has led. Every educated person has immediately present in his or her knowing a host of universal viewpoints and principles that have resulted only from repeated reflection and long life experience. The facility we have achieved in any sphere of knowing, also in fine art, in technical dexterity, consists precisely in having those sorts of familiarity, those kinds of activity immediately present in one?s consciousness in the case at hand, indeed, even in an activity directed outwards and in one?s limbs. ? In all these cases the immediacy of knowing does not only not exclude its mediation; to the contrary, they are so connected that immediate knowing is even the product and result of knowing that has been mediated. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 22/05/2020 1:59 pm, mike cole wrote: Both HAVE TO BE present at once, Andy or there is no perception. Mike On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 8:55 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Yes, last week in our Hegel Reading Group we read the section in the Shorter Logic, following his critiques of Kant and Descartes, Hegel explains how thought is both immediate and mediated, and even over Zoom I could see the clouds gradually receding from my young students' eyes. All of a sudden the whole fruitless argument between scepticism and dogmatism, relativism and historicism, fell away. The most difficult thing to grasp was how perception was not just immediate and mediated, but both were essentially present in the same moment, how without the cultural training of the senses the brain could not make any sense at all of the nervous stimulation of the organs of sight, etc. Andy PS. the exact quote from Hegel is: "there is nothing, nothing in heaven, or in nature or in mind or anywhere else which does not equally contain both immediacy and mediation" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/hl/hlbegin.htm*0092__;Iw!!Mih3wA!SKIoy3c_pSXEuChgB3MjmTbTNOs4jD78QtglW9E7nL6a-XQ0Rj1qFh9FQhQOp4ARiOix1g$ ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 22/05/2020 9:20 am, mike cole wrote: This is a point I have struggled to make for many years, Andy. I didn't know I was quoting Hegel: Hegel: 'Everything is both immediate and mediated." The challenge is to rise to the concrete with this abstraction or its just la la la. mike On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 6:42 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: Of course, Annalisa, I agree that Science is a moral practice, but that is not what is at issue here. Two issues concern me with what you have said: (1) the question of "who decides?" and (2) the quantification of development as in "more evolved" bringing with it the implication of moral value attached to development. (1) The discovery of the "social construction of reality" was an achievement of the Left, the progressives, with people like the Critical Psychologists, the theorists of postmodernism and post-structural feminists in the 1970s an 80s, who exposed how taken-for-granted facts along with the truths of Science were on closer inspection ideological products of dominant social groups. Of course, how reality is seen is an inseparable part of how reality is. This insight led to a range of powerful theoretical and practical critiques of all aspects of society. Feminists offered an alternative way of interpreting reality as a powerful lever for changing that reality by undermining patriarchal structures and certainties. So far so good. But today, in 2020, it is not progressives who are asking "who decides?" and calling into question the very idea of truth and fact: it is Donald Trump and Rudi Giuliani. Quite honestly, this outcome was always implicit in the postmodern and poststructuralist critique. Or, could I say: "Donald Trump is a more evolved form of Judith Butler" if I thought in those terms, which I don't. Hegel takes up this problem with the maxim: "Everything is both immediate and mediated." Yes, social interests dominant in a certain social domain by definition determine what is true in that domain (though remember, every social domain is finite and has its boundaries). But that is not just by saying something about an independently existing reality which can be subject to any number of alternative representations (as Kant would have it), but rather the dominant social interests determine that reality itself. They do that both immediately and through the ideal representation of that reality which is part of that reality. You can't "decide" by a purely discursive moves - you have to change that reality. You do that with the weapons of both theoretical and practical critique. What this means is that you can study the documents (assuming you weren't personally present) of some past dispute and see with your own eyes how and why some people formulated new word meanings, and began to use these new word meaning(s) in their own communication, and thereby facilitated others from using this word meaning, and the relevant concepts, in their work, and so on. (2) As perhaps I have illustrated in my example above that there is no implication of "higher" in development. In my own education, it was Sylvia Scribner's "Uses of History" (1985) which explained this to me. "Higher" implies comparison and comparison in turn implies interchangeability. For example, if I was considering whether to emigrate to the US or France, I might consider public safety as a metric and decide that France was superior to the US and make my decision accordingly. Or, I might consider job availability for an English-speaking monoglot like me as the metric, and decide that the US was superior to France. But to decide that the US is superior to France or vice versa without the choice and the relevant metric is the moral judgment which neither you nor I find acceptable. They're just different. Understanding word meanings and concepts entails an analysis of both how the word is used in the field in question, and the history as to how it came to be so. Using the concept of "germ cell," I can work my way back and forth through an etymological field, forensically, like a detective, until I can connect the particular use of the word which emerged as a germ cell at some earlier time, in some situation where the implication of choosing that word meaning was abundantly clear to all, which allows me to see why someone felt the need (now forgotten) to introduce the word meaning and what it's absence would mean here and now, where it is already taken for granted. My apologies for the unacceptably long message, which is much against my own mores, but I don't know how to clarify these issues more succinctly. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 20/05/2020 3:51 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: Hi Andy, I suppose the issue about being on a branch of evolution has more to do with who decides what the branch is. Is it time? or is it topical? or is it based upon the interlocutors? If we say one word usage is more "evolved" than another, I suppose I am just pushing back on that because who decides what is more evolved? Forgive me, but can we ever say that if something is more "evolved" it is actually better? What do we actually mean when we say something is evolved? What if one term lasts over a longer arc of time than another usage? It seems if we use the evolution rubric, it would be considered more "fit" than the one that is changing over the same period of time. I do find it helpful that you to bring up the germ cell and how that concept pertains to analysis. That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm glad to know that to assign the parentheses does entail an ideological move, and that that can't be escaped. As long as we know what the ideology is, there is transparency in our analysis. I do think moral evaluations are worth including on all discussions, not necessarily to forbid discussions or scientific pursuits, but to use as landmarks to keep our bearings. Scientific concepts have a way of not being inclusive of contexts (i.e., lived experiences) or being grounded, right? Perhaps this is what made Vygotsky such a humane and compassionate scientific thinker is that he could understand how scientific concepts can be abusive tools for oppression. Anchoring them in lived experience shows their validity. Would this be a fair statement to you, Andy? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:23 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] Annalisa, "where does history start"? Effectively there is no starting point, and the choosing of a starting point is always an ideological move. Foucault does this to great effect. Ilyenkov deals with this in his book "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's Capital" and explains the need for what he calls the "logical-historical method." To short circuit the complexities of reading Ilyenkov, in CHAT we rely on the identification of the unit of analysis or "germ cell" to anchor our historical investigation. "Sociogenesis" is just Latin for "social development," the word I used. But if you are going to ascribe a moral value to "evolution" and then reject the concept on that basis, you'd better also reject "development" and all the "geneses" and evolution of species by natural selection and all modern biology while you are at it. Alternatively, you could choose not to ascribe moral values to scientific concepts, then the whole of science is open to you. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 18/05/2020 3:25 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: Hi Andy (& VO's), I think that that was my point, that we cannot capture everything in the word to describe the theory. And that is because of the limit of our language. Even where genesis actually is, where something starts can be difficult to pinpoint. I mean where does History actually start? These words that you mention phylogenesis, ethnogenesis, ontogenesis, are words that are like brackets of a pair of parentheses. Who decides where to put them? (And why not sociogenesis?) I'm not sure it's correct to say the choice of a word locates the user on a branch of a cultural evolutionary tree, because then that starts to mean that one speaker is more evolved than another based on the use of a word. It might be better to say that the choice of a word locates the user to a particular context. I could live with that. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:27 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] You're never going to succeed in formally capturing the full scope of the theory in a word, Annalisa. "socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory" still leave out biology and Darwin, which is a part of our theory, too. It is sometimes said that human development is the coincidence of four processes: phylogenesis (i.e., evolution of the species), cultural development (ethnogenesis, the development of technology and language), social development (one and the same culture has different classes and political groups side by side) and ontogenesis (even twins can grow up very differently according to the experiences (perezhivaniya) they go through). I tried to describe this in: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/ontogenesis.htm__;!!Mih3wA!SKIoy3c_pSXEuChgB3MjmTbTNOs4jD78QtglW9E7nL6a-XQ0Rj1qFh9FQhQOp4DESjLt3w$ But if you look into the history of a word what you will inevitably find is that at some point (in time and social space) there was some dispute, and this dispute was either (1) resolved by both parties agreeing and marking this agreement by the coining of a new word meaning or the dropping of a word meaning altogether, or (2) there is a split and one or both sides of the split adopt a word meaning which distinguishes them from the other side (structuralism's favourite trope) or variations on the above scenarios. So the choice of a word tends to locate the user on a branch in the cultural evolutionary tree. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 17/05/2020 11:56 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: David K & VO's What pray-tell is an anthropologue? I am divided (pun intended) about saying that sociocultural = social + culture, when they are intertwined holistically. To me, sociocultural points to a space in between, or perhaps better said to a context of interactions between individuals (who form a society) that are easily accepted among them and practiced over time. We can conceptually parse out the social and the cultural, but don't we do that because of the words and not because of the ostensible reality going on interactionally? Can we always understand something by dissecting it into parts? Again, this seems to be the limit of language, not of the conceptual context or content. In a sense to use the term "sociocultural" is to grab the tail of the tiger. The tail of the tiger is still the tiger, but perhaps a more manageable one than to grab its head. Perhaps this is why Vygotskians just call themselves Vygotskians to align themselves with the source of the first theories rather than to later conceptions and other developments (i.e. Leontiev, etc). Just thinking out loud. Another argument is that if we want to be all inclusive, then we have to include tool-use, as it's not the social, the culture, and the history, but also the language and tools used. I realize some practitioners would say that language is no different than a tool, but I feel language is different, even though it may have a similar cognitive response in the mind as would using a tool. Activity suggests tool use, though not always. Consider dance, or storytelling, or going for a walk. How about: socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory??? Yes! I am writing this a little tongue in cheek. I hope you do not mind. Kind regards, Annalsia ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:14 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] It's a very domain-specific umbrella, like those cane-brollies that go with a bowler. "Sociocultural" is strongly preferred used in second language acquisition, thanks to the influence of Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf and Matthew Poehner; I have never seen "cultural historical" used in this literature. But "cultural-historical" is similarly preferred in psychology and anthropology, thanks to the influence of J.V. Wertsch, Mike Cole, Martin Packer and Andy Blunden; that's really why we are having this discussion on what "socio-cultural" might mean on a list largely populated by roving psychologists and nomadic anthropologues. Interestingly, the Francophones prefer "historico-cultural", using the argument that you can understand the process without the product but not the product without the process. I stopped using "sociocultural" because I thought it was redundant, but now I am really not sure of this: it seems to me that the relationship is a similar one--you can study society as process without studying its cultural product (e.g. as demographics, economics, statistics) but you can't really study culture without some understanding of the process of its formation. There was a similar disagreement in systemic functional linguistics between Halliday and Jim Martin over the term "socio-semiotic". Martin said that it was redundant, because there couldn't be any semiotic without society. Halliday rather flippantly replied that ants had a society without a semiotics, and at the time it seemed to me that this was a non sequitur, first of all because ants don't really have a society in our sense (precisely because there is no such thing as an ant history separate from phylogenesis on the one hand and ontogenesis on the other) and secondly because ants most definitely do have a semiotics, albeit one based on chemistry and not perception as ours is. It seems to me, in retrospect, that the relationship between the semiotic and the social is much more like the relationship between the social and the biological, or even the biological and the chemical. The semiotic is a certain level of organization that the social has, but there are other levels, just as biology is a certain kind of chemical organization which does not exclude other, nonbiological ways organizing chemicals, and chemistry is a kind of physical organization which doesn't exclude sub-chemical organizations. Perhaps we can think of the relationship between culture and society in the same way? David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!SKIoy3c_pSXEuChgB3MjmTbTNOs4jD78QtglW9E7nL6a-XQ0Rj1qFh9FQhQOp4D2EgQP7w$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SKIoy3c_pSXEuChgB3MjmTbTNOs4jD78QtglW9E7nL6a-XQ0Rj1qFh9FQhQOp4DmoFPLpw$ On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David H Kirshner > wrote: 4. As an umbrella term for any sociogenetic approach. Isn?t that its current usage? David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? Hi Andy, and VO's, What fascinates me is that the word "sociocultural" has a lot of different facets in terms of how the word was used in different contexts. It seems there are three I've been able to pick out. 1. as a derisive term in early Soviet history. 2. as an empowering term from Latin American voices. 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist "brand" at the height of the Cold War in the US. I'm not sure if I've done justice in the manner that I've represented that, but it is a well-intended attempt. Are there others? What I don't understand fully is whether there must be ONE explanation how the term came to be, or ONE definition of what it actually means. Can't it be polysemantic? polycontextual? If that is what's happening, then it makes sense that there would be an ongoing controversy about which one is the right definition or reason for not using it, depending on the interlocutor. If we are to talk about who used the term first, and that's where the value/authority holds, then all that tells us is that for those who value who used the term first. that's where the authority is. If we talk about the emotional attachment of the word as it is used in context and that's where the value/authority holds, then that tells us for those who value the most personal attachment to the word, that's where the authority is. If we talk about how the word was used functionally, where the value/authority holds in its efficacy, then all that tells is that for those who value whether the word works or not, that's where the authority is. I'm not sure one can put any of one these over the other two (or if there are more than that, if there are more). All we can say I suppose is whether in a particular context is the word "sociocultural" appropriate or not? I do find that this debate has begun to have its own life, this debate over the use of a word. I've begun doubt it will ever cease. One day the discussion will be how one used to debate about the term, first everyone was this way about the word, than they were that way about the word, and many large camps were formed in XXXX year to say why the word should not be used, but then X years later other large camps formed to say it is fine to use the word. I suppose it will only be when the debate ceases will it come to pass that the debate will be forgotten. But will that cessation solidify the use or non-use of the word? I understand the reasons for saying "cultural psychology." But for those swimming in a culture where behaviorism is considered the soul of psychology, adding "cultural" becomes a sad necessity. Even then, that necessity only depends upon how one sees culture, as either as an additive, an integral ingredient of psychology, or its basis. I believe I've read on the list that one should be able to say "psychology" and just *know* that it includes culture. I don't think we are there yet. Then that would be my argument to use "sociocultural" to understand it includes history. CHAT is sort of a defensive term (well, it is an acronym). But then... it leaves out "social" and is that OK? We certainly should not say sociocultural historical activity theory because that acronym is very unfulfilling. What is nice about CHAT though is that to chat is an activity of speech, and there is a implied meaning that also pertains to Vygotskian theories, and therefore meaningful. In a sense, it's not the meaning that we are arguing over, but how the limitations of our particular language fails to convey a meaning with such precision that it thereby to parses away any other inappropriate meaning. I'm just not sure that the project is one that can be achieved successfully, even if it succeeds for an interim. At the same time I can see why story of the elephant and the blind men also have a part to play in our understandings and assumptions. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? [EXTERNAL] Annalisa, I have only been talking and writing about Vygotsky and co. since about 2000 and have been openly Marxist since the 1960s (indeed, Vygotsky is core to how I understand Marx) and never had any reason not to be. But it is true that when Mike first went to Moscow, it was at the height of the Cold War, and when he and others first brought Vygotsky's ideas to the USA, there was a lot of resistance to their Marxist content. I think the naming issue only arose as Vygotsky and the others began to build a real following. The issues with the choice of name change over the years, as you say. I prefer" CHAT," but sometimes I use "Cultural Psychology" and sometimes I use "Activity Theory" depending on the context. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: Andy, et al, I sort of came to this a little late in the thread, but I can offer that Vera John-Steiner didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian theory, but as I learn more about the word (thank you Mike), I can see how once a word is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard for the association to be broken. I think it's that way with words all the time coming and going out of favor, or meanings shifting, like the game of telephone, but across generations and cultures. Might I contribute to the discussion by asking whether the use of "sociocultural" was also a means of making the theories more available in the West (at least in the US). It seems there was redscare (you are welcome read the double entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as you like) prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the Marxist "brand" to access the actual theories on child development? In other words, to depoliticize the science? I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but as time passes, I can see its problems. For me, I had preferred the word because historical was always a given for me. In concern of the here and now, the real difficulty I had thought was understanding the social- how interactions between the child and the caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the -cultural, how the culture impacts thought, those things are more of the micro level, but also sociocultural, how the two also can interact and influence one another and that combined bears its own signature on the mind and its development. As far as History (capital H) that is sort of difficult to measure when we are talking about child development as there is very little history that a child has, unless we are talking about genetics, I suppose. Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect and am enriched by the discourse in which we now we find ourselves immersed about it so thanks to all for this. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!SKIoy3c_pSXEuChgB3MjmTbTNOs4jD78QtglW9E7nL6a-XQ0Rj1qFh9FQhQOp4CPMpwb0w$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200524/aaf2fe48/attachment-0001.html From andyb@marxists.org Sat May 23 20:39:50 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 13:39:50 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> <36147263-58ba-6908-ce60-bc367719772e@marxists.org> <71876107-fad8-3a23-2bd9-35d13d923268@marxists.org> <76d5fed9-4397-5cf6-aed4-d537df05af17@marxists.org> Message-ID: <8cc86346-4dd3-0c61-b97d-c50bb1472e4e@marxists.org> Without equating Hegel and Vygotsky (!) ... * visualise Vygotky's famous triangle: A_-X-_B * note that A has a direct unmediated link to B * note that A has a mediated link to B via X In what sense is it not logical to say that double stimulation represents cognition and perception as equally both mediated and immediate? What logical sense could you give to the idea that the relevant cognition is X% mediated and Y% immediate? By the way, the other occasion in which Hegel uses the expression, "neither, in Heaven nor on Earth ...": "Instead of speaking by the maxim of Excluded Middle (which is the maxim of abstract understanding) we should rather say: Everything is opposite. Neither in heaven nor on Earth, neither in the world of mind nor of nature, is there anywhere such an abstract 'either-or' as the understanding maintains. Whatever exists is concrete, with difference and opposition in itself. The finitude of things will then lie in the want of correspondence between their immediate being, and what they essentially are." Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/05/2020 7:34 am, David Kellogg wrote: > I didn't mean to confuse you, Annalisa. But Andy and and > the various philosohers on this list have used expressions > that I in turn find very confusing and I suppose I have > also confused in my own turn. It is one of the hazards of > putting together people from different backgrounds without > proper?intellectual social distancing. > > Here are two statements from philosophy that linguists > like me find confusing: > > a) Everything is one hundred percent mediated and one > hundred percent unmediated. > > b) (I)t is argument about the beginnings of philosophy, > not psychology, and certainly about the distinction > between basic and higher mental functions. > > I find the first statement confusing, because it seems to > me to rule out? "more" or "less" as applied to mediated > and unmediated. This rules out the possibility that > children develop more mediated functions (e.g. volitional > attention, semanticized perception, logical memory, verbal > thinking) on the basis of less mediated functions > (involuntary attention, optical/aural perception, eidetic > memory, and purely practical intelligence). Andy has now > amended this to two separate yes/no questions ("Is > objectivity mediated for the subject?" "One hundred > percent yes." "Is objectivity unmediated for the subject?" > "One hundred percent yes"). By separating it into two > different clauses, Andy is reproducing the grammar of the > original Hegel in dialogic form, but he is?also > acknowledging the inadequacy of the translation that he > announced he would not discuss because it is too clear. > > I find the second statement even more confusing: I am not > sure how one can discuss the distinction between basic and > higher mental functions without beginning psychology, but > you can apply to Andy for details on what exactly he meant. > > Vygotsky (and Vera John-Steiner, and the other leading > representtive of the New Mexico school which you are > associated with) believed in higher and lower functions. > This was? common among psychologists at the time, but it > was not?a way of?quantitatively comparing subjects. It > was?usually interpreted in a?dualistic way--like a two > story house, with immediate perception on the lower floor > (animals and infants) and higher perception on the upper > (angels and aduls), immediate attention (like when you > hear thunder and jump) on the lower floor and voluntary > attention (the ability to listen to somebody's meanings > and edit out all the pauses and fillers) on the upper. > > Vygotsky pointed out that the two were just as linked as > they were distinct (that was what Ruqaiya Hasan always got > out of Vygotsky and she was right). Vygotsky also thought > that all the rooms in the supposed upper floor were > semantically joined through word meanings (because word > meaning participates in the formation of all higher > functions) creating a unified system. This is not true of > lower functions: involuntary attention and practical > intelligence are not developmentally linked the way that > voluntary attention and verbal intelligence are,? We know > that Vygotsky criticized his own early work for seeing the > higher and lower functions in the two-story house way and > not seeing that the higher functions are systemically > linked. A lot of my own interest in systemic-functional > linguistics, an approach that has nothing to do with the > sentence diagramming you refer to, is about seeing those > higher functions as systemically linked through wording > (lexicogrammar), and not simply through word meaning > (lexis).?The latter was?Ruqaiya's critique of Vygotsky, > and Andy has strongly objected to it as?treating Vygotsky > as a linguist. > > Brabantio: What profane wretch art thou? > Iago: I am one, sir, that comes to tell you your daughter > and the Moor are making the beast with two backs. > Brabantio: Thou art a linguist. > Iago: You are---a philosopher. > > (Othello, Act I Scene I,?but perhaps my > logical/verbal?memory misgives me there at the end...) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a > manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!XO9CPnmUmQMkJj_SSaQgq4XMiUp7VsdomA83SNtk6cPNI89H3qyLyug3u-Y0x-wcZGaqJw$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. Vygotsky's > Pedological Works/ /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XO9CPnmUmQMkJj_SSaQgq4XMiUp7VsdomA83SNtk6cPNI89H3qyLyug3u-Y0x-wfrkYZrw$ > > > > > On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 4:56 AM Annalisa Aguilar > > wrote: > > Hi David and Andy, > > When I read this: > > "b) Chiaroscuro paintings are equally both dark > and light in Caravaggio's time and in our own." > > > I would have interpreted this to mean that paintings > are 50% dark and 50% light. Not 100% dark and 100% > light. I suppose this depends upon where one places > the parentheses. I can't remember exactly how to > diagram sentences, and I would be difficult for me to > do that here in an email client,? but what of this: > > (Chiaroscura (paintings)) are (equally both) ((dark) > and (light)) (in (Carraviagio's (time)) and (in (our > (own [time]))). > > or > > (Chiaroscuro (paintings)) are (equally (both ((dark) > and (light))) (in Caravaggio's (time)) and (in (our > own ([time]))). > > I would never have presumed something could be 100% X > and 100% Y unless we were talking about two separate, > but joined, entities. > > In that case I'd interpret this to mean that the > definition of Chiaroscuro paintings no matter what > historical period have two types, what might be called > white paintings and what might be called black > paintings. Say, were there an opposite of Film Noir, > called Film Blanc. And these were related paintings > because of similar painting methods and composition, > and even subject matter, but one is predominantly dark > the other predominantly white. > > Of course nothing like this does exist in Art History, > but it is conceivable to discuss painting genres in > just this way. > > --- > > Then, I also wanted to point out that psychological > can be biological (as in what the brain and nervous > system, etc does to take in perceptual data, and > respond accordingly, such as with walking, balancing a > cup in one's hand not to spill the contents, or > vigilance to protect one's children while walking > through a crowded airport).? This include the limbic > system, yes? > > And psychological can be introspective (I'm not sure > whether it is the proper word, forgive me, but I mean > the subjective experience of the person who retrieves > memories, lays down neuroses to compensate from past > traumas, enjoy fantasies or imaginations, or simply > possesses a more unobstructed sense of self (than a > less unobstructed sense)). > > If one can accept this dualism in the human body it is > possible for experience to be 100% mediated and 100% > unmediated, depending upon which system is being > activated and how the two are working in tandem or > separately, or whether one is overpowering the other. > > Isn't it so? > > Also, I have a curious question to ask. What is the > dividing line between higher function and lower > function? Are there classifications? > > Is this scenario possible: > > In Subject A there are 20 lower functions and 5 higher > functions > In Subject B there are 20 lower functions and 20 > higher functions > In Subject C there are 10 lower functions and 20 > higher functions. > In Subject D there are 5 lower functions and 5 lower > functions > > Taking age out of the equation, in that we suppose > they are all the same age, and also for control, they > have similar environments, caregiving, nutrition, and > education, etc. I would ask this: > > Does a lower function imply a corresponding higher > function? In that lower function 1x will in time with > proper environmental inputs develop into the higher > function 1X? Or can 2 lower functions only produce 1 > higher function? > > Or can 3 lower function produce in varying proportions > 5-8 higher functions. > > Such as function 1ab + 2cd creates function 1ac, 2ac, > 1bd, 2abd, 1bcd, 2ad, 1ad, etc. > > In Subject A, can we assume that there is potential to > develop 15 (or more) additional functions in the > subject's future? > > In Subject B, can we assume that there can be still > further development beyond 20 higher functions that > grow out from the original 20 lower ones? > > In Subject C, can we assume that superior plasticity > has afforded "more" development from less available > resources, such as a person with a disabiilty (like > blindness, deafness) has developed additional higher > functions most others would never develop, say a keen > sense of smell, haptic ability, or visual acuity? > > In Subject D, can we assume that no further > development can occur because there is not enough > "material" present in the lower functions for any > extended development into higher functions, such as an > infant suffering from brain asphyxiation during birth. > > Just trying to understand how one is slicing the > orange, or peeling it, etc. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf of > David Kellogg > > *Sent:* Friday, May 22, 2020 3:39 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? > > *? [EXTERNAL]* > > But this is not the exact quote. It is only a > translation. The exact quote is this: > > ("...) da? es nichts gibt, nichts im Himmel oder in > der Natur oder im Geiste oder wo es sei, was nicht > ebenso die Unmittelbarkeit enth?lt als die > Vermittlung, so da? sich diese beiden Bestimmungen als > ungetrennt und untrennbar und jener Gegensatz sich als > ein Nichtiges zeigt." (There is nothing given, neither > in heaven nor in nature nor in mind nor in wherever it > may be, which is not equally the unmediated contain > alongside the mediated, so that both of these two > determinations (i.e. determining something as > unmediated or as mediated--DK) prove to be inseparable > and inextricable, and their contrast (or their > opposition--DK) proves nul." > > > What's the difference between the exact quote and the > translation? As I pointed out to Andy, the translation > puts "equally" and "both" in the same clause, while > the original German has them in two different clauses. > Compare: > > a) Chiaroscuro paintings are both dark and light, and > this was equally true for Caravaggio as for us. > > b) Chiaroscuro paintings are equally both dark and > light in Caravaggio's time and in our own. > > Statement a) is true enough, although as Mike points > out it is the beginning of a concrete genetic analysis > and not the end. But statement?b) is utterly false: it > puts an end to all genetic analysis and abolishes > development altogether. It says, uselessly, that all > paintings are 100% dark and 100% light and so the only > genetic analysis possible is one of changing > self-consciousness, either in the painter or the > viewer. This is an idealist dialectic, and it is > certainly not a historical one. > > Similarly, it is one thing to say that all > psychological functions are both mediated and > unmediated, and this is equally true for lower > functions as it is for higher functions. For example, > when I look at a painting by Caravaggio or a film by > Derek Jarman, the rod cells in my retina and my optic > nerve are mediating the experience as well as my > cerebral cortex and my biographical knowledge of > Caravaggio. > > But it's very different to say that all psychological > functions are equally both mediated and unmediated, > or100% mediated and 100% unmediated. In addition to > the arithmetical absurdinty, this does not allow me to > distinguish between lower and higher psychological > functions. > > (And I do think this is how Andy gets his notion that > when two things are different we cannot say that one > is more developed than the other. Yet higher > psychological functions do indeed presuppose lower > functions but not the other way around. Andy calls > this difference and not development; I call it equally > both difference and development.) > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and > a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!XO9CPnmUmQMkJj_SSaQgq4XMiUp7VsdomA83SNtk6cPNI89H3qyLyug3u-Y0x-wcZGaqJw$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. Vygotsky's > Pedological Works/ /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XO9CPnmUmQMkJj_SSaQgq4XMiUp7VsdomA83SNtk6cPNI89H3qyLyug3u-Y0x-wfrkYZrw$ > > > > > On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 2:13 PM Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > And it is worth noting that Hegel wrote this in > the 1810s simply on the basis of logical criticism > of Kant and Jacobi (a contemporary sharing some > views with Descartes). And yet it took more than a > century (if I'm not mistaken) to make its way into > hard science. Here's how he explains it: > > ? 66 > That said, we continue to stand by the > position that immediate knowing is to be > taken as a fact. With this, however, the > consideration is directed towards the > field of experience, to a psychological > phenomenon. ? In this respect, it should > be noted that it is one of the most common > experiences that truths (which one knows > very well to be the result of the most > intricate and highly mediated > considerations) present themselves > immediately in the consciousness of > someone conversant with such knowledge. > Like everybody else who has been trained > in a science, the mathematician > immediately has at his fingertips > solutions to which a very complicated > analysis has led. Every educated person > has immediately present in his or her > knowing a host of universal viewpoints and > principles that have resulted only from > repeated reflection and long life > experience. The facility we have achieved > in any sphere of knowing, also in fine > art, in technical dexterity, consists > precisely in having those sorts of > familiarity, those kinds of activity > immediately present in one?s consciousness > in the case at hand, indeed, even in an > activity directed outwards and in one?s > limbs. ? In all these cases the immediacy > of knowing does not only not exclude its > mediation; to the contrary, they are so > connected that immediate knowing is even > the product and result of knowing that has > been mediated. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 22/05/2020 1:59 pm, mike cole wrote: >> Both HAVE TO BE present at once, Andy or there is >> no perception. >> Mike >> >> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 8:55 PM Andy Blunden >> > >> wrote: >> >> Yes, last week in our Hegel Reading Group we >> read the section in the Shorter Logic, >> following his critiques of Kant and >> Descartes, Hegel explains how thought is both >> immediate /and/ mediated, and even over Zoom >> I could see the clouds gradually receding >> from my young students' eyes. All of a sudden >> the whole fruitless argument between >> scepticism and dogmatism, relativism and >> historicism, fell away. The most difficult >> thing to grasp was how perception was not >> just immediate and mediated, but both were >> essentially present in the same moment, how >> without the cultural training of the senses >> the brain could not make any sense at all of >> the nervous stimulation of the organs of >> sight, etc. >> >> Andy >> >> PS. the exact quote from Hegel is: "there is >> nothing, nothing in heaven, or in nature or >> in mind or anywhere else which does not >> equally contain both immediacy and mediation" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/hl/hlbegin.htm*0092__;Iw!!Mih3wA!XO9CPnmUmQMkJj_SSaQgq4XMiUp7VsdomA83SNtk6cPNI89H3qyLyug3u-Y0x-yIAyvc0w$ >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 22/05/2020 9:20 am, mike cole wrote: >>> This is a point I have struggled to make for >>> many years, Andy. I didn't know I was >>> quoting Hegel: >>> >>> Hegel: >>> 'Everything is both immediate and mediated." >>> >>> The challenge is to rise to the concrete >>> with this abstraction or its just la la la. >>> >>> mike >>> >>> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 6:42 PM Andy Blunden >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Of course, Annalisa, I agree that >>> Science is a moral practice, but that is >>> not what is at issue here. >>> >>> >>> Two issues concern me with what you have >>> said: (1) the question of "who decides?" >>> and (2) the quantification of >>> development as in "more evolved" >>> bringing with it the implication of >>> moral value attached to development. >>> >>> >>> (1) The discovery of the "social >>> construction of reality" was an >>> achievement of the Left, the >>> progressives, with people like the >>> Critical Psychologists, the theorists of >>> postmodernism and post-structural >>> feminists in the 1970s an 80s, who >>> exposed how taken-for-granted facts >>> along with the truths of Science were on >>> closer inspection ideological products >>> of dominant social groups. Of course, >>> how reality is /seen /is an inseparable >>> part of how reality /is/. This insight >>> led to a range of powerful theoretical >>> and practical critiques of all aspects >>> of society. Feminists offered an >>> alternative way of interpreting reality >>> as a powerful lever for changing that >>> reality by undermining patriarchal >>> structures and certainties. So far so >>> good. But today, in 2020, it is not >>> progressives who are asking "who >>> decides?" and calling into question the >>> very idea of truth and fact: it is >>> Donald Trump and Rudi Giuliani. Quite >>> honestly, this outcome was always >>> implicit in the postmodern and >>> poststructuralist critique. Or, could I >>> say: "Donald Trump is a more evolved >>> form of Judith Butler" if I thought in >>> those terms, which I don't. >>> >>> >>> Hegel takes up this problem with the >>> maxim: "Everything is both immediate and >>> mediated." Yes, social interests >>> dominant in a certain social domain by >>> definition determine what is true in >>> that domain (though remember, every >>> social domain is finite and has its >>> boundaries). But that is not just by >>> saying something about an/independently >>> existing/ reality which can be subject >>> to any number of /alternative/ >>> representations (as Kant would have it), >>> but rather the dominant social interests >>> /determine that reality itself/. They do >>> that both /immediately /and /through the >>> ideal representation/ of that reality >>> which is *part of that reality*. You >>> can't "decide" by a purely discursive >>> moves - you have to /change /that >>> reality. You do that with the weapons of >>> both theoretical and practical critique. >>> >>> >>> What this means is that you can study >>> the documents (assuming you weren't >>> personally present) of some past dispute >>> and see with your own eyes how and why >>> some people formulated new word >>> meanings, and began to use these new >>> word meaning(s) in their own >>> communication, and thereby facilitated >>> others from using this word meaning, and >>> the relevant concepts, in their work, >>> and so on. >>> >>> >>> (2) As perhaps I have illustrated in my >>> example above that there is no >>> implication of "higher" in development. >>> In my own education, it was Sylvia >>> Scribner's "Uses of History" (1985) >>> which explained this to me. "Higher" >>> implies comparison and comparison in >>> turn implies /interchangeability/. For >>> example, if I was considering whether to >>> emigrate to the US or France, I might >>> consider public safety as a metric and >>> decide that France was superior to the >>> US and make my decision accordingly. Or, >>> I might consider job availability for an >>> English-speaking monoglot like me as the >>> metric, and decide that the US was >>> superior to France. But to decide that >>> the US is superior to France or vice >>> versa without the choice and the >>> relevant metric is the moral judgment >>> which neither you nor I find acceptable. >>> They're just different. >>> >>> >>> Understanding word meanings and concepts >>> entails an analysis of *both *how the >>> word is used in the field in question, >>> and the history as to how it came to be >>> so. Using the concept of "germ cell," I >>> can work my way back and forth through >>> an etymological field, forensically, >>> like a detective, until I can connect >>> the particular use of the word which >>> emerged as a germ cell at some earlier >>> time, in some situation where the >>> implication of choosing that word >>> meaning was abundantly clear to all, >>> which allows me to see *why* someone >>> felt the need (now forgotten) to >>> introduce the word meaning and what it's >>> absence would mean here and now, where >>> it is already taken for granted. >>> >>> >>> My apologies for the unacceptably long >>> message, which is much against my own >>> mores, but I don't know how to clarify >>> these issues more succinctly. >>> >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> On 20/05/2020 3:51 am, Annalisa Aguilar >>> wrote: >>>> Hi Andy, >>>> >>>> I suppose the issue about being on a >>>> branch of evolution has more to do with >>>> who decides what the branch is. Is it >>>> time? or is it topical? or is it based >>>> upon the interlocutors? >>>> >>>> If we say one word usage is more >>>> "evolved" than another, I suppose I am >>>> just pushing back on that because who >>>> decides what is more evolved? >>>> >>>> Forgive me, but can we ever say that if >>>> something is more "evolved" it is >>>> actually better? What do we actually >>>> mean when we say something is evolved? >>>> >>>> What if one term lasts over a longer >>>> arc of time than another usage? It >>>> seems if we use the evolution rubric, >>>> it would be considered more "fit" than >>>> the one that is changing over the same >>>> period of time. >>>> >>>> I do find it helpful that you to bring >>>> up the germ cell and how that concept >>>> pertains to analysis. That makes a lot >>>> of sense to me. I'm glad to know that >>>> to assign the parentheses does entail >>>> an ideological move, and that that >>>> can't be escaped. As long as we know >>>> what the ideology is, there is >>>> transparency in our analysis. >>>> >>>> I do think moral evaluations are worth >>>> including on all discussions, not >>>> necessarily to forbid discussions or >>>> scientific pursuits, but to use as >>>> landmarks to keep our bearings. >>>> Scientific concepts have a way of not >>>> being inclusive of contexts (i.e., >>>> lived experiences) or being grounded, >>>> right? >>>> >>>> Perhaps this is what made Vygotsky such >>>> a humane and compassionate scientific >>>> thinker is that he could understand how >>>> scientific concepts can be abusive >>>> tools for oppression. Anchoring them in >>>> lived experience shows their validity. >>>> Would this be a fair statement to you, >>>> Andy? >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> on behalf of Andy Blunden >>>> >>>> >>>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:23 PM >>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural >>>> psychology" ? >>>> >>>> *? [EXTERNAL]* >>>> >>>> Annalisa, "where does history start"? >>>> Effectively there is no starting point, >>>> and the choosing of a starting point is >>>> always an ideological move. Foucault >>>> does this to great effect. Ilyenkov >>>> deals with this in his book "The >>>> Abstract and Concrete in Marx's >>>> Capital" and explains the need for what >>>> he calls the "logical-historical >>>> method." To short circuit the >>>> complexities of reading Ilyenkov, in >>>> CHAT we rely on the identification of >>>> the unit of analysis or "germ cell" to >>>> anchor our historical investigation. >>>> >>>> >>>> "Sociogenesis" is just Latin for >>>> "social development," the word I used. >>>> But if you are going to ascribe a moral >>>> value to "evolution" and then reject >>>> the concept on that basis, you'd better >>>> also reject "development" and all the >>>> "geneses" and evolution of species by >>>> natural selection and all modern >>>> biology while you are at it. >>>> Alternatively, you could choose *not* >>>> to ascribe moral values to scientific >>>> concepts, then the whole of science is >>>> open to you. >>>> >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> On 18/05/2020 3:25 am, Annalisa Aguilar >>>> wrote: >>>>> Hi Andy (& VO's), >>>>> >>>>> I think that that was my point, that >>>>> we cannot capture everything in the >>>>> word to describe the theory. And that >>>>> is because of the limit of our language. >>>>> >>>>> Even where genesis actually is, where >>>>> something starts can be difficult to >>>>> pinpoint. I mean where does History >>>>> actually start? >>>>> >>>>> These words that you mention >>>>> phylogenesis, ethnogenesis, >>>>> ontogenesis, are words that are like >>>>> brackets of a pair of parentheses. Who >>>>> decides where to put them? (And why >>>>> not sociogenesis?) >>>>> >>>>> I'm not sure it's correct to say the >>>>> choice of a word locates the user on a >>>>> branch of a cultural evolutionary >>>>> tree, because then that starts to mean >>>>> that one speaker is more evolved than >>>>> another based on the use of a word. >>>>> >>>>> It might be better to say that the >>>>> choice of a word locates the user to a >>>>> particular context. I could live with >>>>> that. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> on behalf of Andy Blunden >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:27 PM >>>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural >>>>> psychology" ? >>>>> >>>>> *? [EXTERNAL]* >>>>> >>>>> You're never going to succeed in >>>>> formally capturing the full scope of >>>>> the theory in a word, Annalisa. >>>>> "socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical >>>>> activity theory" still leave out >>>>> biology and Darwin, which is a part of >>>>> our theory, too. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It is sometimes said that human >>>>> development is the coincidence of >>>>> *four* processes: *phylogenesis >>>>> *(i.e., evolution of the species), >>>>> cultural development (*ethnogenesis*, >>>>> the development of technology *and >>>>> *language), *social development* (one >>>>> and the same culture has different >>>>> classes and political groups side by >>>>> side) and *ontogenesis *(even twins >>>>> can grow up very differently according >>>>> to the experiences (/perezhivaniya/) >>>>> they go through). I tried to describe >>>>> this in: >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/ontogenesis.htm__;!!Mih3wA!XO9CPnmUmQMkJj_SSaQgq4XMiUp7VsdomA83SNtk6cPNI89H3qyLyug3u-Y0x-wlscBjFg$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But if you look into the history of a >>>>> word what you will inevitably find is >>>>> that at some point (in time and social >>>>> space) there was some dispute, and >>>>> this dispute was either (1) resolved >>>>> by both parties agreeing and marking >>>>> this agreement by the coining of a new >>>>> word meaning or the dropping of a word >>>>> meaning altogether, or (2) there is a >>>>> split and one or both sides of the >>>>> split adopt a word meaning which >>>>> distinguishes them from the other side >>>>> (structuralism's favourite trope) or >>>>> variations on the above scenarios. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So the choice of a word tends to >>>>> locate the user on a branch in the >>>>> cultural evolutionary tree. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> >>>>> Home Page >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 17/05/2020 11:56 am, Annalisa >>>>> Aguilar wrote: >>>>>> David K & VO's >>>>>> >>>>>> What pray-tell is an anthropologue? >>>>>> >>>>>> I am divided (pun intended) about >>>>>> saying that sociocultural = social + >>>>>> culture, when they are intertwined >>>>>> holistically. To me, sociocultural >>>>>> points to a space in between, or >>>>>> perhaps better said to a context of >>>>>> interactions between individuals (who >>>>>> form a society) that are easily >>>>>> accepted among them and practiced >>>>>> over time. >>>>>> >>>>>> We can conceptually parse out the >>>>>> social and the cultural, but don't we >>>>>> do that because of the words and not >>>>>> because of the ostensible reality >>>>>> going on interactionally? Can we >>>>>> always understand something by >>>>>> dissecting it into parts? >>>>>> >>>>>> Again, this seems to be the limit of >>>>>> language, not of the conceptual >>>>>> context or content. >>>>>> >>>>>> In a sense to use the term >>>>>> "sociocultural" is to grab the tail >>>>>> of the tiger. The tail of the tiger >>>>>> is still the tiger, but perhaps a >>>>>> more manageable one than to grab its >>>>>> head. >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps this is why Vygotskians just >>>>>> call themselves Vygotskians to align >>>>>> themselves with the source of the >>>>>> first theories rather than to later >>>>>> conceptions and other developments >>>>>> (i.e. Leontiev, etc). Just thinking >>>>>> out loud. >>>>>> >>>>>> Another argument is that if we want >>>>>> to be all inclusive, then we have to >>>>>> include tool-use, as it's not the >>>>>> social, the culture, and the history, >>>>>> but also the language and tools used. >>>>>> I realize some practitioners would >>>>>> say that language is no different >>>>>> than a tool, but I feel language is >>>>>> different, even though it may have a >>>>>> similar cognitive response in the >>>>>> mind as would using a tool. >>>>>> >>>>>> Activity suggests tool use, though >>>>>> not always. Consider dance, or >>>>>> storytelling, or going for a walk. >>>>>> >>>>>> How about: >>>>>> socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical >>>>>> activity theory??? >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes! I am writing this a little >>>>>> tongue in cheek. I hope you do not mind. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Annalsia >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> *From:* >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> on behalf of David Kellogg >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:14 PM >>>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, >>>>>> Activity >>>>>> >>>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: >>>>>> "sociocultural psychology" ? >>>>>> >>>>>> *? [EXTERNAL]* >>>>>> >>>>>> It's a very domain-specific umbrella, >>>>>> like those cane-brollies that go with >>>>>> a bowler. "Sociocultural" is strongly >>>>>> preferred used in second language >>>>>> acquisition, thanks to the influence >>>>>> of Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf and >>>>>> Matthew Poehner; I have never seen >>>>>> "cultural historical" used in this >>>>>> literature. But "cultural-historical" >>>>>> is similarly preferred in psychology >>>>>> and anthropology, thanks to the >>>>>> influence of J.V. Wertsch, Mike >>>>>> Cole,?Martin Packer and Andy >>>>>> Blunden;?that's really why we are >>>>>> having this discussion on what >>>>>> "socio-cultural" might mean on a list >>>>>> largely populated by >>>>>> roving?psychologists and nomadic >>>>>> anthropologues. >>>>>> >>>>>> Interestingly, the Francophones >>>>>> prefer "historico-cultural", using >>>>>> the argument that you can understand >>>>>> the process without the product but >>>>>> not the product without the process. >>>>>> I stopped using "sociocultural" >>>>>> because I thought it was redundant, >>>>>> but now I am really not sure of this: >>>>>> it seems to me that the relationship >>>>>> is a similar one--you can study >>>>>> society as process without studying >>>>>> its cultural product (e.g. as >>>>>> demographics, economics, statistics) >>>>>> but you can't really study culture >>>>>> without some understanding of the >>>>>> process of its formation. >>>>>> >>>>>> There was a similar disagreement in >>>>>> systemic functional linguistics >>>>>> between Halliday and Jim Martin over >>>>>> the term "socio-semiotic". Martin >>>>>> said that it was redundant, because >>>>>> there couldn't be any semiotic >>>>>> without society.?Halliday rather >>>>>> flippantly replied that ants had a >>>>>> society without a semiotics, and at >>>>>> the time it seemed to me that?this >>>>>> was a?non sequitur,?first of all >>>>>> because ants don't really have a >>>>>> society in our?sense (precisely >>>>>> because there is no such thing as an >>>>>> ant history separate from >>>>>> phylogenesis on the one hand and >>>>>> ontogenesis on the other) and >>>>>> secondly because ants most definitely >>>>>> do have a semiotics, albeit one based >>>>>> on chemistry and not perception as >>>>>> ours is. >>>>>> >>>>>> It seems to me, in retrospect, that >>>>>> the relationship between the semiotic >>>>>> and the social is much more like the >>>>>> relationship between the social and >>>>>> the biological, or even the >>>>>> biological and the chemical. The >>>>>> semiotic is a certain level of >>>>>> organization that the social has, but >>>>>> there are other?levels, just as >>>>>> biology is a certain kind of chemical >>>>>> organization which does not exclude >>>>>> other, nonbiological ways organizing >>>>>> chemicals, and?chemistry is a kind of >>>>>> physical organization which doesn't >>>>>> exclude sub-chemical organizations. >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps we can think of the >>>>>> relationship between culture and >>>>>> society in the same way? >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>>> >>>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in >>>>>> memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!XO9CPnmUmQMkJj_SSaQgq4XMiUp7VsdomA83SNtk6cPNI89H3qyLyug3u-Y0x-wcZGaqJw$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: >>>>>> /L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ >>>>>> /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XO9CPnmUmQMkJj_SSaQgq4XMiUp7VsdomA83SNtk6cPNI89H3qyLyug3u-Y0x-wfrkYZrw$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David >>>>>> H Kirshner >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> 4. As an umbrella term for any >>>>>> sociogenetic approach. >>>>>> >>>>>> Isn?t that its current usage? >>>>>> >>>>>> David >>>>>> >>>>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> *On Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar >>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 >>>>>> 3:31 PM >>>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, >>>>>> Activity >>>>> > >>>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: >>>>>> "sociocultural psychology" ? >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Andy, and VO's, >>>>>> >>>>>> What fascinates me is that the >>>>>> word "sociocultural" has a lot of >>>>>> different facets in terms of how >>>>>> the word was used in different >>>>>> contexts. It seems there are >>>>>> three I've been able to pick out. >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. as a derisive term in early >>>>>> Soviet history. >>>>>> 2. as an empowering term from >>>>>> Latin American voices. >>>>>> 3. as a relaxed term of the >>>>>> Marxist "brand" at the height >>>>>> of the Cold War in the US. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not sure if I've done justice >>>>>> in the manner that I've >>>>>> represented that, but it is a >>>>>> well-intended attempt. Are there >>>>>> others? >>>>>> >>>>>> What I don't understand fully is >>>>>> whether there must be ONE >>>>>> explanation how the term came to >>>>>> be, or ONE definition of what it >>>>>> actually means. Can't it be >>>>>> polysemantic? polycontextual? >>>>>> >>>>>> If that is what's happening, then >>>>>> it makes sense that there would >>>>>> be an ongoing controversy about >>>>>> which one is the right definition >>>>>> or reason for not using it, >>>>>> depending on the interlocutor. >>>>>> >>>>>> If we are to talk about who used >>>>>> the term first, and that's where >>>>>> the value/authority holds, then >>>>>> all that tells us is that for >>>>>> those who value who used the term >>>>>> first. that's where the authority >>>>>> is. >>>>>> >>>>>> If we talk about the emotional >>>>>> attachment of the word as it is >>>>>> used in context and that's where >>>>>> the value/authority holds, then >>>>>> that tells us for those who value >>>>>> the most personal attachment to >>>>>> the word, that's where the >>>>>> authority is. >>>>>> >>>>>> If we talk about how the word was >>>>>> used functionally, where the >>>>>> value/authority holds in its >>>>>> efficacy, then all that tells is >>>>>> that for those who value whether >>>>>> the word works or not, that's >>>>>> where the authority is. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not sure one can put any of >>>>>> one these over the other two (or >>>>>> if there are more than that, if >>>>>> there are more). All we can say I >>>>>> suppose is whether in a >>>>>> particular context is the word >>>>>> "sociocultural" appropriate or not? >>>>>> >>>>>> I do find that this debate has >>>>>> begun to have its own life, this >>>>>> debate over the use of a word. >>>>>> I've begun doubt it will ever cease. >>>>>> >>>>>> One day the discussion will be >>>>>> how one used to debate about the >>>>>> term, first everyone was this way >>>>>> about the word, than they were >>>>>> that way about the word, and many >>>>>> large camps were formed in XXXX >>>>>> year to say why the word should >>>>>> not be used, but then X years >>>>>> later other large camps formed to >>>>>> say it is fine to use the word. I >>>>>> suppose it will only be when the >>>>>> debate ceases will it come to >>>>>> pass that the debate will be >>>>>> forgotten. But will that >>>>>> cessation solidify the use or >>>>>> non-use of the word? >>>>>> >>>>>> I understand the reasons for >>>>>> saying "cultural psychology." But >>>>>> for those swimming in a culture >>>>>> where behaviorism is considered >>>>>> the soul of psychology, adding >>>>>> "cultural" becomes a sad >>>>>> necessity. Even then, that >>>>>> necessity only depends upon how >>>>>> one sees culture, as either as an >>>>>> additive, an integral ingredient >>>>>> of psychology, or its basis. I >>>>>> believe I've read on the list >>>>>> that one should be able to say >>>>>> "psychology" and just *know* that >>>>>> it includes culture. I don't >>>>>> think we are there yet. >>>>>> >>>>>> Then that would be my argument to >>>>>> use "sociocultural" to understand >>>>>> it includes history. CHAT is sort >>>>>> of a defensive term (well, it is >>>>>> an acronym). But then... it >>>>>> leaves out "social" and is that >>>>>> OK? We certainly should not say >>>>>> sociocultural historical activity >>>>>> theory because that acronym is >>>>>> very unfulfilling. What is nice >>>>>> about CHAT though is that to chat >>>>>> is an activity of speech, and >>>>>> there is a implied meaning that >>>>>> also pertains to Vygotskian >>>>>> theories, and therefore meaningful. >>>>>> >>>>>> In a sense, it's not the meaning >>>>>> that we are arguing over, but how >>>>>> the limitations of our particular >>>>>> language fails to convey a >>>>>> meaning with such precision that >>>>>> it thereby to parses away any >>>>>> other inappropriate meaning. I'm >>>>>> just not sure that the project is >>>>>> one that can be achieved >>>>>> successfully, even if it succeeds >>>>>> for an interim. >>>>>> >>>>>> At the same time I can see why >>>>>> story of the elephant and the >>>>>> blind men also have a part to >>>>>> play in our understandings and >>>>>> assumptions. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Annalisa >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> on behalf of Andy Blunden >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM >>>>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: >>>>>> "sociocultural psychology" ? >>>>>> >>>>>> *? [EXTERNAL]* >>>>>> >>>>>> Annalisa, I have only been >>>>>> talking and writing about >>>>>> Vygotsky and co. since about 2000 >>>>>> and have been openly Marxist >>>>>> since the 1960s (indeed, Vygotsky >>>>>> is core to how I understand Marx) >>>>>> and never had any reason not to >>>>>> be. But it is true that when Mike >>>>>> first went to Moscow, it was at >>>>>> the height of the Cold War, and >>>>>> when he and others first brought >>>>>> Vygotsky's ideas to the USA, >>>>>> there was a lot of resistance to >>>>>> their Marxist content. I think >>>>>> the naming issue only arose as >>>>>> Vygotsky and the others began to >>>>>> build a real following. The >>>>>> issues with the choice of name >>>>>> change over the years, as you >>>>>> say. I prefer" CHAT," but >>>>>> sometimes I use "Cultural >>>>>> Psychology" and sometimes I use >>>>>> "Activity Theory" depending on >>>>>> the context. >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>> >>>>>> Home Page >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa >>>>>> Aguilar wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy, et al, >>>>>> >>>>>> I sort of came to this a >>>>>> little late in the thread, >>>>>> but I can offer that Vera >>>>>> John-Steiner didn't mind >>>>>> "sociocultural" to describe >>>>>> Vygotskian theory, but as I >>>>>> learn more about the word >>>>>> (thank you Mike), I can see >>>>>> how once a word is utilized >>>>>> with intent of derision, it's >>>>>> hard for the association to >>>>>> be broken. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think it's that way with >>>>>> words all the time coming and >>>>>> going out of favor, or >>>>>> meanings shifting, like the >>>>>> game of telephone, but across >>>>>> generations and cultures. >>>>>> >>>>>> Might I contribute to the >>>>>> discussion by asking whether >>>>>> the use of "sociocultural" >>>>>> was also a means of making >>>>>> the theories more available >>>>>> in the West (at least in the >>>>>> US). It seems there was >>>>>> redscare (you are welcome >>>>>> read the double entendre: >>>>>> "red scare" or "reds care", >>>>>> as you like) prevalent, and >>>>>> wouldn't it be useful to >>>>>> remove the Marxist "brand" to >>>>>> access the actual theories on >>>>>> child development? In other >>>>>> words, to depoliticize the >>>>>> science? >>>>>> >>>>>> I had been a proponent of the >>>>>> use of the word, but as time >>>>>> passes, I can see its problems. >>>>>> >>>>>> For me, I had preferred the >>>>>> word because historical was >>>>>> always a given for me. In >>>>>> concern of the here and now, >>>>>> the real difficulty I had >>>>>> thought was understanding the >>>>>> social- how interactions >>>>>> between the child and the >>>>>> caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable >>>>>> peer and the -cultural, how >>>>>> the culture impacts thought, >>>>>> those things are more of the >>>>>> micro level, but also >>>>>> sociocultural, how the two >>>>>> also can interact and >>>>>> influence one another and >>>>>> that combined bears its own >>>>>> signature on the mind and its >>>>>> development. As far as >>>>>> History (capital H) that is >>>>>> sort of difficult to measure >>>>>> when we are talking about >>>>>> child development as there is >>>>>> very little history that a >>>>>> child has, unless we are >>>>>> talking about genetics, I >>>>>> suppose. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now? I'm fairly agnostic >>>>>> about the term. I respect and >>>>>> am enriched by the discourse >>>>>> in which we now we find >>>>>> ourselves immersed about it >>>>>> so thanks to all for this. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Annalisa >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> on behalf of Andy Blunden >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 14, >>>>>> 2020 7:24 PM >>>>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >> -- >> >> >> "How does newness come into the world?? How is >> it born?? Of what fusions, translations, >> conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> Cultural Praxis Website: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XO9CPnmUmQMkJj_SSaQgq4XMiUp7VsdomA83SNtk6cPNI89H3qyLyug3u-Y0x-w9WJKciQ$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu >> . >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu >> . >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200524/9fd5b143/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun May 24 05:34:07 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 21:34:07 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Are Zoomspace and Meatspace Equally Both Mediated? Message-ID: I have been teaching three classes on-line through Zoom since mid-March, and I have noticed very big differences in response patterns in Zoomspace and the same classes taught face-to-face in "meatspace" one year ago. Like Elizabeth Warren (when she taught at Harvard) I don't ask many "Anyone know?" questions; like Elizabeth Warren I have found that when you use "Anyone know?" questions, the rich just get richer and the poor stay poor. So I tend to ask a question and then tag it with a name. On the one hand, Zoom makes it easier to "go down the list" and make sure everybody gets a question (and you can change the list each time you do this, e.g. by switching from the Korean alphabet to the English one, so it doesn't LOOK like you are following a fixed order). On the other, Zoom produces very long pauses between the time I tag the question with a name and the time the tagged person starts a reply, much longer than face-to-face classes do. Last week I noticed, while transcribing the orals for some analysis, that the wait time was almost proportional to the scores: with some correction for male vs. female and Chinese vs. Korean students, I could predict the final score from the length of the pause. It also seemed to me that in general students who had fared worse with the conceptual material when I taught them in meatspace fared even worse with Zoom, while those who had done well in meatspace did even better on Zoom. Assuming all that is true, why should it be the case? Meatspace is, of course, mediated, but it's mediated face to face, through "nun chi" (that is, "the color/tone/ambiance of eyes"); Zoom makes it impossible to know which student the professor is looking at, approaching, gesturing to. Sight is one kind of mediation, sound is another, and of course silent text is a third, with all of the difficulties of mediation that LSV points out in Chapter 6 of Thinking and Speech. But LSV also points out that these difficulties represent not only difference but development. Students who can deal with silent text mediation of concepts are "higher" in the sense that by dealing with it, they prove that they can also deal with sound mediation, but the reverse need not be true. Similarly, students who can deal with sound mediation of visual-illustrative complexes (generalized representations, such as we find in school children) can deal with sight mediation--but not necessarily vice versa. Zoomspace and meatspace may be very similarly related, and it's in that sense that they are not equally both mediated. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!WJJY0jUwgulNvk4KTLGAtjEvtJ11y53EGrBOweZ1TcFbEufZd1BL-hYMmmhWZi4Vhe6u-Q$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WJJY0jUwgulNvk4KTLGAtjEvtJ11y53EGrBOweZ1TcFbEufZd1BL-hYMmmhWZi4bP2nLDQ$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200524/a7f531f4/attachment.html From glassman.13@osu.edu Sun May 24 07:17:02 2020 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 14:17:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Are Zoomspace and Meatspace Equally Both Mediated? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi David, For what it?s worth I can give you my take on why Zoom does not work in the same way as face-to-face (I have never heard the term meatspace before. I am not sure I like it, although it is very descriptive). There are a couple of things missing from Zoom that we are used to in face-to-face. There are two issues I can think of which have been termed but have not been deeply explored. I am not sure where mediation fits with either. They are teacher presence and social presence. Garrison?s Community of Inquiry model discusses these but does not go deeply in to them. Teacher presence actually goes back to face-to-face research. Teacher presence is the way students read their teachers when they are together in a classroom context. What early research suggested is that language is actually one of the least important aspects of teacher presence. Much more impactful are things like body language, tone of voice, eye contact. Students over the course of their academic careers come to read all these, and those who are best at reading them (I would say usually people who shared similar historical and familial backgrounds ? but this is conjecture) do the best in classes. From how my Korean students have described the education system there, teacher presence is extraordinarily important, perhaps because of the subtleties of the culture, perhaps because the student populations can be very homogeneous. With Zoom you loose almost all of these qualities and students are desperately trying to understand their immediate relationship with the teacher, or just anecdotally just give up and go play games. It can be incredibly frustrating. It also works the other way I think. We sometimes take for granted how important it is to read a room from the qualities of the audience. I have been on a number of Zoom meetings where speakers who are very aware in face-to-face meeting just went on far too long, losing the room. It can be very disconcerting. The other issue is social presence. This is actually a concept that goes back to the dominance of the telephone but we still seem to know incredibly little about it. It is the sense that there are corporal beings out there, acting as an audience and as a point of reflection. We tend to lose momentum and interest if we feel we are throwing out feedback into a void. My experience is that unless you have critical experience with individuals off-line, more than just being in a classroom, it is really difficult to build social presence. The earliest research suggested that when there is a distance most of what we can do is give orders and respond. Zoom does not do well with social presence, but perhaps worse it gives you a false sense of social presence. You think, well I can see them and they can see me so why shouldn?t there be social presence? It leads to dangerous assumptions and frustrations and I think it also a reason why so many instructors and students become frustrated with Zoom classes. A sort of ?this should be working better than it is.? But actually, maybe it shouldn?t. Vygotsky has an interesting passage in chapter six. Where he talks about teaching the student in school and then having them go home and continue exploring the concept. I sort of think I know where he got that from (because it comes out of nowhere it seems) but this also might be because as I have mentioned I have been reading Stanislavski. In the chapters Vygotsky obviously had access to the narrator talks about starting to work on a role and then going home and continuing to work on it. The theatrical context can give us a good start. We can do good things working on the character by ourselves (facial expressions in front of a mirror) but, and this is the part Vygotsky does not include, or does he, you need to consolidate this development with others. You must bring the concept back in to a caring audience where it congeals with the work of others (a zone of proximal development). If Zoom does not give us an audience do we miss this really important step, because the students do not have a sense of social presence, and those that struggled with reading the teacher and reading the room struggle even more as they try and bring their conceptual thinking to fruition. Just some random thoughts on a coronavirus Sunday morning. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2020 8:34 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Are Zoomspace and Meatspace Equally Both Mediated? I have been teaching three classes on-line through Zoom since mid-March, and I have noticed very big differences in response patterns in Zoomspace and the same classes taught face-to-face in "meatspace" one year ago. Like Elizabeth Warren (when she taught at Harvard) I don't ask many "Anyone know?" questions; like Elizabeth Warren I have found that when you use "Anyone know?" questions, the rich just get richer and the poor stay poor. So I tend to ask a question and then tag it with a name. On the one hand, Zoom makes it easier to "go down the list" and make sure everybody gets a question (and you can change the list each time you do this, e.g. by switching from the Korean alphabet to the English one, so it doesn't LOOK like you are following a fixed order). On the other, Zoom produces very long pauses between the time I tag the question with a name and the time the tagged person starts a reply, much longer than face-to-face classes do. Last week I noticed, while transcribing the orals for some analysis, that the wait time was almost proportional to the scores: with some correction for male vs. female and Chinese vs. Korean students, I could predict the final score from the length of the pause. It also seemed to me that in general students who had fared worse with the conceptual material when I taught them in meatspace fared even worse with Zoom, while those who had done well in meatspace did even better on Zoom. Assuming all that is true, why should it be the case? Meatspace is, of course, mediated, but it's mediated face to face, through "nun chi" (that is, "the color/tone/ambiance of eyes"); Zoom makes it impossible to know which student the professor is looking at, approaching, gesturing to. Sight is one kind of mediation, sound is another, and of course silent text is a third, with all of the difficulties of mediation that LSV points out in Chapter 6 of Thinking and Speech. But LSV also points out that these difficulties represent not only difference but development. Students who can deal with silent text mediation of concepts are "higher" in the sense that by dealing with it, they prove that they can also deal with sound mediation, but the reverse need not be true. Similarly, students who can deal with sound mediation of visual-illustrative complexes (generalized representations, such as we find in school children) can deal with sight mediation--but not necessarily vice versa. Zoomspace and meatspace may be very similarly related, and it's in that sense that they are not equally both mediated. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!QNi6vvP4MXEad0IeRJSSlvsD-Gi3hrMu2t35Lni8xlwUL43F0rS524ALyEUJa2beB601yA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QNi6vvP4MXEad0IeRJSSlvsD-Gi3hrMu2t35Lni8xlwUL43F0rS524ALyEUJa2btm7prfA$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200524/e1162a72/attachment.html From feine@duq.edu Sun May 24 08:07:53 2020 From: feine@duq.edu (Dr. Elizabeth Fein) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 15:07:53 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [External] Re: Are Zoomspace and Meatspace Equally Both Mediated? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I've been part of a small group of friends that do Zoom karaoke together on Saturday nights during quarantine. It's a lot of fun, but it's also been very helpful in practicing and calibrating a sense of presence over Zoom. Every song is an opportunity to practice a different sort of character, a different emotional style, and the fact that you can see yourself while you're doing it provides some feedback. We all know each other a bit offline as well, so there's that sense of social presence and history that we can compare to whoever we are when we are singing Don Henley or Portishead or whatever. Michael, your post helped me understand why it's felt so important to me to keep this up - I feel like it's helping me figure out a wider range of conveying myself, and observing others, through this medium. Best, Elizabeth ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Glassman, Michael Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2020 10:17 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [External] [Xmca-l] Re: Are Zoomspace and Meatspace Equally Both Mediated? Hi David, For what it?s worth I can give you my take on why Zoom does not work in the same way as face-to-face (I have never heard the term meatspace before. I am not sure I like it, although it is very descriptive). There are a couple of things missing from Zoom that we are used to in face-to-face. There are two issues I can think of which have been termed but have not been deeply explored. I am not sure where mediation fits with either. They are teacher presence and social presence. Garrison?s Community of Inquiry model discusses these but does not go deeply in to them. Teacher presence actually goes back to face-to-face research. Teacher presence is the way students read their teachers when they are together in a classroom context. What early research suggested is that language is actually one of the least important aspects of teacher presence. Much more impactful are things like body language, tone of voice, eye contact. Students over the course of their academic careers come to read all these, and those who are best at reading them (I would say usually people who shared similar historical and familial backgrounds ? but this is conjecture) do the best in classes. From how my Korean students have described the education system there, teacher presence is extraordinarily important, perhaps because of the subtleties of the culture, perhaps because the student populations can be very homogeneous. With Zoom you loose almost all of these qualities and students are desperately trying to understand their immediate relationship with the teacher, or just anecdotally just give up and go play games. It can be incredibly frustrating. It also works the other way I think. We sometimes take for granted how important it is to read a room from the qualities of the audience. I have been on a number of Zoom meetings where speakers who are very aware in face-to-face meeting just went on far too long, losing the room. It can be very disconcerting. The other issue is social presence. This is actually a concept that goes back to the dominance of the telephone but we still seem to know incredibly little about it. It is the sense that there are corporal beings out there, acting as an audience and as a point of reflection. We tend to lose momentum and interest if we feel we are throwing out feedback into a void. My experience is that unless you have critical experience with individuals off-line, more than just being in a classroom, it is really difficult to build social presence. The earliest research suggested that when there is a distance most of what we can do is give orders and respond. Zoom does not do well with social presence, but perhaps worse it gives you a false sense of social presence. You think, well I can see them and they can see me so why shouldn?t there be social presence? It leads to dangerous assumptions and frustrations and I think it also a reason why so many instructors and students become frustrated with Zoom classes. A sort of ?this should be working better than it is.? But actually, maybe it shouldn?t. Vygotsky has an interesting passage in chapter six. Where he talks about teaching the student in school and then having them go home and continue exploring the concept. I sort of think I know where he got that from (because it comes out of nowhere it seems) but this also might be because as I have mentioned I have been reading Stanislavski. In the chapters Vygotsky obviously had access to the narrator talks about starting to work on a role and then going home and continuing to work on it. The theatrical context can give us a good start. We can do good things working on the character by ourselves (facial expressions in front of a mirror) but, and this is the part Vygotsky does not include, or does he, you need to consolidate this development with others. You must bring the concept back in to a caring audience where it congeals with the work of others (a zone of proximal development). If Zoom does not give us an audience do we miss this really important step, because the students do not have a sense of social presence, and those that struggled with reading the teacher and reading the room struggle even more as they try and bring their conceptual thinking to fruition. Just some random thoughts on a coronavirus Sunday morning. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2020 8:34 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Are Zoomspace and Meatspace Equally Both Mediated? I have been teaching three classes on-line through Zoom since mid-March, and I have noticed very big differences in response patterns in Zoomspace and the same classes taught face-to-face in "meatspace" one year ago. Like Elizabeth Warren (when she taught at Harvard) I don't ask many "Anyone know?" questions; like Elizabeth Warren I have found that when you use "Anyone know?" questions, the rich just get richer and the poor stay poor. So I tend to ask a question and then tag it with a name. On the one hand, Zoom makes it easier to "go down the list" and make sure everybody gets a question (and you can change the list each time you do this, e.g. by switching from the Korean alphabet to the English one, so it doesn't LOOK like you are following a fixed order). On the other, Zoom produces very long pauses between the time I tag the question with a name and the time the tagged person starts a reply, much longer than face-to-face classes do. Last week I noticed, while transcribing the orals for some analysis, that the wait time was almost proportional to the scores: with some correction for male vs. female and Chinese vs. Korean students, I could predict the final score from the length of the pause. It also seemed to me that in general students who had fared worse with the conceptual material when I taught them in meatspace fared even worse with Zoom, while those who had done well in meatspace did even better on Zoom. Assuming all that is true, why should it be the case? Meatspace is, of course, mediated, but it's mediated face to face, through "nun chi" (that is, "the color/tone/ambiance of eyes"); Zoom makes it impossible to know which student the professor is looking at, approaching, gesturing to. Sight is one kind of mediation, sound is another, and of course silent text is a third, with all of the difficulties of mediation that LSV points out in Chapter 6 of Thinking and Speech. But LSV also points out that these difficulties represent not only difference but development. Students who can deal with silent text mediation of concepts are "higher" in the sense that by dealing with it, they prove that they can also deal with sound mediation, but the reverse need not be true. Similarly, students who can deal with sound mediation of visual-illustrative complexes (generalized representations, such as we find in school children) can deal with sight mediation--but not necessarily vice versa. Zoomspace and meatspace may be very similarly related, and it's in that sense that they are not equally both mediated. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!TEekmZBmHMDwfO8Oqu59EsV1jXcqBPdakBeGEsGM8iGp9wfMmqGfF5pxKeF60dc5o_1j0Q$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TEekmZBmHMDwfO8Oqu59EsV1jXcqBPdakBeGEsGM8iGp9wfMmqGfF5pxKeF60ddFmaSvAg$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200524/c1a2fdbf/attachment.html From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Sun May 24 09:19:09 2020 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 17:19:09 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Annalisa While I cannot deny that it is likely that we will continue to see more or less successful attempts at 'third ways' being made globally, I do not accept that the error is *to rely on* 'traditional power structure'. Capital's power structures have been being shaped and elaborated over five hundreds years now and we can see what sort of a world they have created. While I am sure that the 14,000 families in Middlesbrough whose children qualify for free school meals constantly try to debate with the UK power structures, so far that resistance has proved ineffective. The disproportionate number of Black Americans and UK BAME people imprisoned, relative to their presence in the population, to mention just one aspect of racism in our societies, has not yet been overcome by debate. The people of Iraq and Afghanistan have been using the criticism of arms against the power structures of US and (some) European powers for decades without much success. All in all, there is so much evidence before me, that I judge that a refusal to acknowledge the nature of power in our imperialist world, is to deprive one's analytical equipment of essential tools. What meeting of minds is possible at that distance? Kind regards Tom On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 22:17, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Alas, hello again Tom (& VO's), > > While I accept your assessment of our differences in approaches and > understandings, I do not see that it is obvious that there is no meeting > point. > > For example, innovation exists in science and in art, in business it is > entrepreneurship. I believe that there are good things that come from > business entrepreneurship, and there are bad things too. We love that art > and science are innovative, when they are, but there can be failings there > too. > > The captains of industry who believe they are self-made men, and who > believe that anyone who decides for oneself being on the assembly line of > the manufacturing floor is only a dumb pawn in a larger game, would be in > my estimation the worst that kind of human that entrepreneurship generates. > Elon Musk is one example, perhaps. > > As much as I likely would not want Elon Musk over for dinner, I can admire > that he has been able to steward the creation of an electric car in the > midst of a sleepwalking auto industry that cannot envision automobiles > without a gas-eating combustible engine. > > At the same time what he gives he takes away: I'm not sure that I can ever > get on board a space rocket to inhabit Mars. I actually object to that > project because as long as we haven't worked out how to feed everyone on > this earthship, we should not be escaping it by polluting another planet, > even if, as Carl Sagan told us, there are billions and billions of them out > there. > > "They" in the form of (other they)'s do not have power unless we give them > that power. That power is always up for debate every minute, every day, > every year. > > Given that there are now 38 million unemployed in the US (I can't name the > numbers elsewhere and I'm sorry about that), that's like the entire > population of California being on the dole. It is a significant number, and > it may be that many of those people start their own businesses, not because > of education or desire, but of necessity. > > Many of the young and unemployed are educated. That could be a combustible > cocktail, depending upon their self-awareness and outward worldview. > > One strange article in NYT described a scene designer who has been out of > work since the health order shutdown, and hasn't received any unemployment > yet because she filed in New Jersey, while her partner did because he filed > in New York. Then she got an offer to work in a company who is making ... > wait for it.... facemasks, so now she is toiling over a machine, sewing > facemasks. > > I don't think I could live in that situation because of the stark irony, > if that is a just word for that. I mourn the loss of her creativity, but I > hope it is temporary. > > Now out of necessity, she's had to travel that path. So I can agree with > you that because of the government order to shut down business, and because > a company who hired her decided to make facemasks, because what other > ingenious product would or could one manufacture right now? they have > shaped her working life. Have they shaped her social life, though. I mean > completely? She still has her contacts on her iPhone, she likely returns > home to her partner to cook dinner and search for more work. Her desires > and dreams are likely impacted, but has she completely given up? Should she? > > I am not pro-revolution, only because they create rivers of blood in > streets, etc. I'm more of the mind that incremental choices can together > create a tipping point of social change. > > For example, consider the tiny house movement. Or how young people will > share resources, or reevaluate buying things, or what they eat. > > People make the best lemonade only with the best lemons. > > There is going to have to be a reckoning of having so many unemployed > people. It can't be ignored. To just pretend that everyone will be happy > with a lower wage job (lower than when the pandemic hit), is only going to > drive people to desperate measures. The country will want to put people to > work and this could be an opportunity for collective change, for creating > meaningful jobs. > > Because who wants a civil war. > > So there will have to be some sort of appeasement for the social reality > that people must have their basic needs met. The temporary stimulus is a > lifeline, but the real economic difficulties will start when people start > to return to work, and there are less jobs with the result being there is > less money circulating in the economy overall. With interest rates so low, > and pumping more money into the economy is only going to raise the prices > of things, possibly wages, but not the buying power. > > People will cut bait from the lives they once had, and simplify. Moving to > less crowded cities and towns, returning to live with parents. Perhaps > creating cooperatives. One area for discovery with so much time on one's > hands is handcrafting. I think there will be a blooming of new businesses > that incorporate *real* labor. This may also usher in more vocational > training programs. > > One article I read today discussed the eating of meat, and how it is a > destructive social practice including its impact on climate change. Largely > that industry depends upon of automation, and now with slaughterhouses > being virus hotspots, do you want to trust that the meat you buy is not > tainted with COVID? Or that you are forcing a worker into an unsafe work > environment and catch the virus? > > If people were decide to stop eating meat, or reduce even its consumption > because it's too expensive, and if the government stops giving subsidies to > these agro-corporations, then these polluting companies will fail. That > would be great news. > > Then the writer pointed out that if we returned to diets higher in > plant-based food, that would increase demand for real farms, real > entrepreneurship and generate jobs, as it takes more people to grow > vegetables, than it does to raise pigs or chickens. We would also become > healthier as a population. There is already a network of farmer's markets > for local produce, so it may mean a growth in that area. > > I suppose what I'm trying to say is I do not think it is so cut and dried > that we are subject to the worst forever. I think with so much time on our > hands people are free to organize and decide to help one another in mutual > aid. We do not have to rely on traditional power structures, and we do not > have to resort to bloody revolutions. > > Depending upon what you are looking for in life, there is a third way > arising. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > *Sent:* Saturday, May 23, 2020 4:24 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Hello once more Annalisa > > Our difference of approach to and understanding of the modern state and > the production of social life obviously admits of no meeting point as far > as I read your astonishingly wide-ranging and impassioned response. > > Without the simplicity of my reply intending to signal a facile sarcasm, > I must bluntly state that I begin from the acceptance that nefarious or > not, 'They', in the sense of government and corporations, do have the power > to control and shape the organisation of social life. We can, if enough > socio-political pressure can be brought to bear through social movements, > rebellions, revolts, shift certain aspects of that fashioning of our lives. > > But at present, the relationship of wage slavery imposed by Capital ,and > the society shaped by that relationship, are dominant throughout the life > of our planet. > > Sad at such an impasse, since we both wish the best for humanity > > Tom > > > > On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 21:46, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Tom, and VO's of XMCA > > Concerning your questions about our new normal now that COVID19 is with us > and here to stay, I think your guess is as good as anyone's. I am not sure > if we as humans have ever been burdened with such an event as this, and at > the same time are able to watch the unfolding events and respond (or not > respond if you are a stable genius) quickly from the feedback of data, > news, anecdotes, and other forms of perception of how the virus is > impacting us. > > What is worth remembering as well, is that epidemiologists have been > warning us for decades that a pandemic was a clear an present danger to the > way we live and negotiate the modern world. We see in sensurround how right > they were. > > As I consider your question, I have to think that people mow might be > sorted into two classes, well at least two classes: > > > 1. People who seem to think the virus is just another flu and once we > find a vaccine, all will return to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December > Holiday or pre-pandemic time you mark your calendar as before the pandemic > hit, which of course depends upon where on the earth you are located). > 2. People who seem to think the virus has changed us and there will > never be going back to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday...) > > I suspect the Americans of the neo-conservative persuasion who have been > motivated to protest health order social distancing believe that not only > this is a conspiracy to control fredom-loving people, but that we should > return to Christmas 2019 as soon as possible, they are of Cohort 1. > > I think Cohort 2 are going to be people who take in the facts and the data > and are actively attempting to sort out where do we go from here. I feel > confident you are in Cohort 2, as ar most people on this list. > > Now, as Carol M has pointed out, in a lot of ways our discussion about > online learning is a first world concern, for those who have an internet > connection that is ubiquitous not only at home, but at school, work, on the > bus, on planes, in cafes, and other public gathering spaces, like city > halls, or town squares. That's another reason why it's hard to take Klein > seriously, in terms of *tone*. > > I recall reading something from George Lakoff when he indicates that there > is a liberal stance that seems to believe that if one objects loudly enough > with "sky is falling" rhetoric and then feed out various data, that using > this strategy the audience will become motivated to protest in the streets, > write letters to congress, run for office, or whatever civil action must be > done, and with alacrity. It doesn't work. I do not think being against > anything ever "works." I think only being for something works. > > Let's look at Klein's article as an example. If she were to be > rhetorically successful she would outline the problem she identifies (Mr. > Schmidt goes to Washington), but instead of all that is wrong, talk about > what can be right. Not to say she should agree with Mr. Schmidt and his > ways. > > I feel her article could be a lot heavier on what works with education and > how to enhance that further. She does mention how money should b used more > for school nurses, smaller classrooms, etc. This is where she could have > expanded beautifully into a viable solution to spark everyone's > imaginations. But she didn't do that. She is more motivated it seems to > mark Mr. Schmidt and his technological minions to masterminding a New World > Order that will steal our souls and tether us to the Matrix from now until > the end of time. > > I also feel she would have been more conducive to discourse by writing an > open letter to Cuomo and Schmidt, and to invite a response. This is also > leading by example to cultivate democratic processes that are near and dear > to all of us. Instead she "otherfies" them, and this is also not useful. > And I am not saying that as a stance to defend Mr. Schmidt or Gov Cuomo, in > any way. > > So back to your question, I do not think that there is any way we will be > extricated from this reality of COVID 19. We will have to pick our stones > across the river carefully so that none of us slips and is carried down the > rapids. I feel it is more useful to say we are a family of one kind, and > all of us have to stay together to make it across. And that all of us > deserves a life jacket as a measure of survival because not all of us will > get to the other side without getting wet, or falling in. > > The tension between CEOs and their contempt for the slow-food of democracy > is well known. If only they could persuade all of us to eat fast food, then > they could take over the world as the next McDonalds, in terms of > technological vision, whatever a McDonalds would look like on a screen, as > an app, whathaveyou. > > Unfortunately what seems to elude folks who have not worked in tech, or > those who see tech as just another new Ford in the garage, is that > technology is always in flux. There is always development of new hardware > that needs new software written to use it, so there is a double-quicksand > of events upon which technology is founded (and funded) upon. That's what > Moore's Law is about. > > Technology in order to "be itself" must always move fleetingly, like the > shark must to breathe. Technology will never be able to last the halls of > government. For that reason, any rendition of technology in government (and > school systems for that matter) will be like bad combovers that are meant > to convince us that we are now more attractive and appealing (not meaning > to offend those who live by their combovers...) > > Where I feel technology could best serve us is to help create grassroots > democracy tools, to support what we know is possible and could even > threaten the basis for representative democracy and bring it closer to a > straight agora democracy. > > Some might call this anarchy, and I could argue along the lines of David > Graeber that anarchy is a more pure form of democracy practiced in all > "primitive" or "ancient" cultures, it's not a perfect fit, and I intend to > make that reference loosely. My point is to say there should be what David > K calls involution of what government is, to what government was, and to > supplant that, or rather what causes those parts to be pushed to the > margins is to imagine a government where there is mor connection to > agora-like venues where one person speaking in a Zoom-like frame is of > equal stature of any other person speaking in the frame. One can sort of > imagine this with the Zoom-empowered senate hearings which I watched for a > while on the NYT front page. It was really strange to me. I suppose the > danger is that we get to hear Sally Mc? from Arizona use her time to blame > the Chinese for the virus, etc, for more time that we would like. But > that's democracy. > > So one fallout could be that grade-school kids and their resulting > perezhivanie from Zoom-based classrooms, will adopt the tool for political > discussions as adults. Might that be a good thing? > > Maybe. > > At the same time, do you remember a book that came out in the mid90s > called "Silicon Snake Oil"? This is yet another phenomenon of technology, > that people oozing charisma will claw their way to the microphone and pitch > an idea about the next vaporware, who will then make unsubstantiated > promises and claims directed to feed our fantasies and dreams, and who will > then abscond with all the money, only to request not to look at the man > behind the green curtain, or if pulled by the ear into a senate hearing > will say "I thought it was a good idea at the time." etc. > > I think that is the view of Klein about all technology, and there are > merits in that, but there are also other ways to think about it. > > This article about Marc Benioff in Wired recently discusses about the > social entrepreneurship of his wealth: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.wired.com/story/gospel-of-wealth-according-to-marc-benioff/__;!!Mih3wA!Q_h-uzHO8ymmga_jTzAswwh1EulRiKfSjRrnm7QxHRZaiArNJsLsATw2xFzW881_qFOgZg$ > > Who by they way now owns the magazine Time, the way Jeff Bezos bought the > WaPo, and Lauren Jobs bought The Altlantic, and Pierre Omidyar funded The > Intercept. > > I do invite, as much as you can stomach, anyway, for any educators or > other members of our vibrant list to make regular reading of Wired > Magazine, which is a far more interesting read on technology than something > like Fast Company. I encourage this reading, if only to know the enemy, as > it were. Wired articles are far more nuanced and sophisticated than when > the magazine first got off the ground in the early 90s. I find reading it > helps to connect some dots for those who do not consume technology culture > all the time. Just pick and choose what you are curious about. > > We must become familiar with the vernacular of technology if we want a > hand in the game of how it plays in education, our stomping grounds. This > will require effort on our part. That is not to say we must adopt all the > shiny new toys. But we can be like a Consumer Report for education, and > evaluate and measure the good the bad and the ugly of technology and its > use in the edu sphere. > > We cannot sit on our laurels and wait for someone else to decide for us > how technology will be deployed. That stance is what the mythology of > inevitable technology rests and self-perpetuates. > > We must be more tech literate, and we must be the first to coin words and > how they manifest in edu venues. What works what doesn't. I don't see any > other way to fight back and to keep control of the educational narrative, > where of course we want to hardwire zopeds, manifest and lead critical and > nourishing perezhivanie, and model by example sterling mediated learning > experiences for students and teachers. > > What other projects can there be? > > For me, this is "fighting back" because it makes the sort of shark-like > entrepreneur recede for a time (as they will always be looking for a way > into edu's tax coffers), because we are successful getting education right. > > I do not accept that entreprenuership is what took the sanctity from > teaching and learning. But that's an argument to be made. I feel it is only > one side of the argument. > > Once I had an male acquaintance tell me that one reason women are in > inferior roles is because they let this happen to them. As you might > imagine, I had a real hard time with that argument and I had to clench my > jaw to now spew various vitriol upon him. But after I thought about it, in > a narrow sense he is not wrong because not it is true that enough women in > history identified the value to struggle for rights even if they would not > see equality in their own lifetimes. There are many explanations for why > that did not happen, that are not facile to depict. But then I also had to > think of how much women's struggles have succeeded because they did decide > to not let this happen to them anymore. But now women are learning in the > US, anyway, that nothing fought for is a permanent fixture, and so we must > become resigned to the perpetual struggle for equality, as all marginalized > people must. > > So now I direct this to our context of education in the venue of online > learning. This is not an easy question, and it is not intended to > trivialize the work and efforts of many on this list, but it is instead a > question of inner reflection, or a taking of inventory of one's own life: > > How much has each of you done to take measure and fight for meaningful > education in the classroom? > > Could you have done more? Can you do more? > > Then the same for asking yourself how have you integrated technology > appropriately into your learning methods and general perezhivanie. > > I hope this might provide some further food for thought concerning > preservation on the sanctity of learning and instruction in the classroom. > > So all this is to reply to you Tom, that in short, the nefarious They can > only take control if we let them. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ps please excuse all typos, which are all made on my own. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 11:26 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Hi Annalisa > > Thank you for providing the details of your deep and committed background > in distance / online learning. Mine is obviously shallow, which must have > triggered you and 'Robsub' somewhat. > > But my questioning is in the newer context of the Covid19 threats to > global society and the solutions being sought to extricate us from them. > > Governor Cuomo's conversation with Schmidt to examine solutions to the > problems of present coping and future emergence from the pandemic is > understandable. Two persons with power and a need to act, discuss what > technology (in its widest hard- and software aspects) has to offer. > > In a democracy we can assess the solutions they propose and shape them to > what we know to be as near to optimal for our society as possible. Your > assertion of the efficacy of our agency which Klein seems to deny, > with her politico-economic caveats. > > Schmidt has an evangelism for the potential of technology, but expressed > with such restraint - he's no zealot. He also, in the video of the ECNY > conversation with Marie-Josee Kravis, sees the lack of 'simplicity' in the > three-tier democratic system of the US. He is a CEO with an organisation > geared to problem-analysis, solution choices, and operational capability > which can be put into action without delaying debate. He expressed no > hostility to 'democracy' but as he said, it does not work simply. > > Klein reminds us to be wary if not alarmed, not because she is despairing > (I believe), but because that direct entrepreneurial drive has profit > making as its unavoidable aim. Whatever Schmidt's humanistic feelings, if > profit doesn't result from his and his companies actions, they will not > survive. That competitive drive is also present in his aspirations for > international dominance (see his remarks on the rise of China's technology). > > So far, the sort of distance / online learning you have worked on, has > been nested in the context of family and (normal) school life. That > normality had implicit in it human values, customs and structures, whatever > differences of class, race, gender and culture were present. The melding of > state and enterprise in a newly-developing novel (5G?)high-tech 'solution' > to mediating education presents a situation which need to be examined I > believe. And my query, in that 'Kleinian' context was looking for answers > from those, like yourself, with wide experience of previous technological > 'answers' and their implications for the results within the learner. > > I affirm, along with you, the irrepressible resistance and sheer > cantankerousness we humans bring to unjust situations. But such fighting > back will often be unsuccessful in its aims, when the need to reduce labour > time with new technology is driving events - Luddism and machine looms? Our > human drive to change and adapt, our use of our agency to create or alter > our lives must not be suppressed. But what Klein is reminding us of is just > how tilted is the balance of power - the power of the state and behind it, > the drive from the vast corporate world, for profit. Our agency is so often > undone by the arbitrary intervention of those forces. > > Those are the forces which have destroyed what you name the 'sanctity' of > teaching and learning. I would name it the basic need for those goals, but > we share it. With the need to re-invigorate just such a precious resource, > we will continue to fight like hell. Despite their mere humanness, > corporations and states at present have greater knowledge and power than > 'mere' citizens. My intervention in xmca discussion was really to say > "They're looking to take even more control of daily life. > Within academia, you can analyse how they are making such changes happen > and continue to alert the rest of us, if you fear the consequences of > their changes." > > Best wishes > Tom > > On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 22:29, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? > > Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We > looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, > once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always > a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed > by SL's prospects. > > In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, > I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that > students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one > another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological > fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would > ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. > > Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like > looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. > Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. > > What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, > which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open > space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was > perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. > > I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators > already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online > learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers > during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of > associations of place with learning. > > In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the > AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, > drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in > order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye > coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing > abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and > constrain learning to books. > > We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We > must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. > > I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the > situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of > learning. > > I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out > of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for > quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged > learning venues . Not with grade school. > > I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for > grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally > studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, > although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon > it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess > that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because > parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. > > I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, > nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. > > What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is > childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own > families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!Q_h-uzHO8ymmga_jTzAswwh1EulRiKfSjRrnm7QxHRZaiArNJsLsATw2xFzW882CEjkoPw$ > > > It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, > not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may > also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we > must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. > > It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom > to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the > classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. > > Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the > AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he > could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that > education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People > then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We > see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the > case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of > learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. > > If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to > already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support > well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be > integrated with existing models. > > If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way > to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money > will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. > > One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online > learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may > also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or > riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and > surveillance is a constructive combination. > > There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more > appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet > words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must > better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite > behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown > interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from > what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. > > This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a > mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and > introspection, I will never accept that reality. > > To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say > "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers > and pins." > > I just do not believe this narrative. > > We cannot give up. > > Is there a fight ahead? Yes. > > Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most > definitely, yes. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Hello Annalisa > Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost > none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of > human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour > acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. > > - What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment > created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the > widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such > learning takes place?'. > - What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes > for the *perezhivanie *of the learner, which shapes her social being > and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', > 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? > > Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet > listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what > is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. > I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is > within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. > > Kind regards > Tom > > > On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hello Tom, > > Thank you for posting the link. > > I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly > dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is > not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking > pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended > into our lives. > > I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It > reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and > resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has > become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. > > At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power > in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. > > Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill > Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as > the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment > facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include > Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding > flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his > billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). > > I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage > agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace > illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the > drug wars. These efforts are working. > > Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem > I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. > > She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID > (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control > the world. > > Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of > the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. > Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is > the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to > deliberate the way forward. > > As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to > control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, > or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in > ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be > construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency > to decide how to use our tools. > > Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt > will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled > children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional > online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. > > So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply > does not hold water for me. > > I hope this might be a little encouraging. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Hello Tom Richardson > This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat > Project" that has just finished its > planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human > development, and theories of "Development > in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by > the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. > Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to > actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. > The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of > essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. > In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most > dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced > a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most > members of this discussion over the years, > is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations > have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting > a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). > > We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social > science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp > speed and its invisible. > > Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about > for 100 years. > Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing > working models of effective practices that do NOT > assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. > > Thanks for asking. > mike > > > > On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > > Greetings Xmca-ers > I would like to raise a question. > In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major > questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, > democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international > competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan > approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to > these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been > happening recently: > > > "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks > after that article appeared, he described > the > ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the > country had been forced to cobble together during this public health > emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. > > The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids > learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote > and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will > help kids learn better.? " > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!Q_h-uzHO8ymmga_jTzAswwh1EulRiKfSjRrnm7QxHRZaiArNJsLsATw2xFzW882mC3SHSA$ > > > > Just asking > Tom Richardson > Middlesbrough UK > > > > -- > > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, > translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. > For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net > > . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200524/234eee01/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun May 24 14:23:57 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 06:23:57 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> <36147263-58ba-6908-ce60-bc367719772e@marxists.org> <71876107-fad8-3a23-2bd9-35d13d923268@marxists.org> <76d5fed9-4397-5cf6-aed4-d537df05af17@marxists.org> Message-ID: Thanks, Rob. I am not sure where I got "bladeless knives without handles" (Mad Magazine when I was a kid, probably....) I'm sure I didn't make it up. But when I read the attached post, I can recognze all my usual facial tics...far-flung and far-fetched comparisons, sudden changes of subject, picturesque details a propos nothing in particular. That much I did make up! It was shortly afterwards I suggested doing a book on puppets, and you were kind enough to edit the mess into "The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit". It was a book which had almost nothing to do with puppets. because I blew through my puppet budget and still only had enough of them for the teacher, so we would teach the kids to use their fingers and their imaginations instead (headless puppet without handle). I notice that it was wildly unpopular as an actual book, but people download individual e-chapters from Springer quite a bit. When I do teach the book, I find the redundancy of the structure helpful for internalizing the argument (Halliday-Vygotsky-Shakespeare in every chapter). I had always thought that single chapters and e-books were equally both bladeless knives without handles. (But what do I know? Authors never really know what they are doing. That's why God made editors, you know....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!QPRn2_tuZRB9hkHJGZJkH3y7JUbXQTUjfPD3KvI8wm1UNSL76RuqyF6u6YNMh3Brlb9M0w$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QPRn2_tuZRB9hkHJGZJkH3y7JUbXQTUjfPD3KvI8wm1UNSL76RuqyF6u6YNMh3AzkbrCqg$ On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 8:19 AM Robert Lake wrote: > This has always been one of my favorite phrases of your David Kellogg(2011 > :-). > [xmca] Bladeless Knives Without Handles > ------------------------------ > > - *To*: Culture ActivityeXtended Mind > - *Subject*: [xmca] Bladeless Knives Without Handles > - *From*: David Kellogg > - *Date*: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 20:29:50 -0700 (PDT) > - *Delivered-to*: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > - *Dkim-signature*: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com > ; > s=s1024; t=1312514990; bh=ZTwBpevYMpENXk2UOfvblO+lutaUeMcfccMk8Wdkx84=; > h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; > b=IXH/urTk8sUk6cnSkj3y8aF3aoE8c58BLUEQvGDfnYXRhyZNGjUlGpPj4SaY/jXGGUU/PsX3U1uSHupOR/wE4nNGkUx9rYIVPA+utSFSybh8UezbGY2z1l7/zL3Emq3OrNW0haXYozvsVL6Ox6/mzitKGeX1F4bgvbzMqMwVCPg= > - *Domainkey-signature*: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d= > yahoo.com > ; > h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; > b=0S1dEibEyzneLw0TgC4q1XiggO2GpLR62Cal2+dXI8vLP1oevRRJEKtBX7vN26kSfCPgsprFeNbaHKrxaTcrd5dgluUigFsqDoZfd4tzaPowdu6AhJG94PGENr+oP39/0jC4F0tdUFal9TMtDq+heW6w3l8QKBuC9Och3A1tg1Y=; > - *In-reply-to*: < > > CAGaCnpwhsvC+OFjajk8HA4m+ooqqfK0-e=BGSys_0fCCVmCryw@mail.gmail.com > > > - *List-archive*: > - *List-help*: > > - *List-id*: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > - *List-post*: > > - *List-subscribe*: , < > mailto:xmca-request@weber.ucsd.edu?subject=subscribe > > > - *List-unsubscribe*: , < > mailto:xmca-request@weber.ucsd.edu?subject=unsubscribe > > > - *Reply-to*: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > - *Sender*: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu > > ------------------------------ > > A few belated comments, some of them appreciative but mostly quite critical, about Fernando Gonzalez Rey?s ?Re-examination of Defining Moments? and his notion of sense. > > a) Both Rey and Veresov (in his article ?Vygotsky Before Vygotsky?) emphasize NEGATION in their periodization: they stress absolute differences between the early Vygotsky (interested in art, literature, imagination, creativity, emotion, and personality) and middle Vygotsky (interested in completely unrelated notions such as history, culture, mediation, tools, symbols, and internalization). I think there is indeed a very important distinction to be made, but I think it is more like the distinction between explanans and explanandum than either writer would like to admit. For example, isn?t an artwork a kind of instrument? Doesn?t art work involve the use of both tools and symbols? It is more than a little suggestive that both Rey and Veresov appear to distinguish a ?real? Vygotsky concerned with individual development from a false, objectivist and institutionalized Vygotsky concerned with Marxist psychology and (to link this thread to the > last discussion article) the Soviet social project. Rey does take this project much further than Veresov, and tries to split Vygotsky away from cultural-historical psychology altogether (whereas Veresov simply tries to split off the early Vygotsky from Marxism). > > b) Both Rey and Veresov stress that they are the FIRST to make this distinction (and thus ignore each other, as well as writers (Mauricio Ernica, Gunilla Lindqvist) who have made similar points in a less ambitious, less absolutist and (as a result) more acceptable fashion. For example, van der Veer and Kozulin have taken into account the clear examples of reflexological terminology in ?Psychology of Art? (even idiots like me! See ?The Real Ideal? in the LCHC discussion papers pigeonhole); actually the whole work uses as a unit of analysis an ?aesthetic reaction?. Oppositely, there are those pesky works by Vygotsky himself, e.g. ?Imagination and Creativity in the Adolescent? which came out in 1931 at the very nadir of Vygotsky?s supposedly ?objectivist? period. Of course, knowing how hard it is to get published in MCA, I quite understand the temptation to make extravagant claims of priority and extreme claims of periodization. > Still, I can?t help but wonder how it is that our respected, (even feared!) reviewers could so easily have had the wool pulled over their eyes! > > c) Rey appears to me to be trying to establish sense as a psychological category rather than a linguistic one, that is, as a matter of belief and identity rather than speaking role and reference. I agree that simply putting in culture between the subject and object in the form of an objective tool-like ?meaning? will not work; the historico-cultural project founded by LCHC was to examine differences in cognition made by culture, and not simply material artefacts. I also agree that calling both tools and symbols "artefacts" (ideal or material) does not do anything other than to account for them historically and genetically; it doesn't, for example, help to distinguish them functionally and structurally. But I don?t think that trying to de-historicize and de-culturize sense will work either, for a very simple reason: there is no such thing as sense without established (historic-culturally established) meaning, just as there is no > meaning-making without actual sense, without mentally reconstructing the mind of the interlocutor.Psychological sense without (historic-cultural) meaning and meaning without sense are both both meaningless and senseless. > > It seems to me that sense without historico-cultural meaning is a bladeless knife without a handle. That is because sense is not simply part of the user-friendly handle of a word; it is also inherent to the way that it is interpreted by the interpreter. > > Similarly, meaning is not simply part of the environment-friendly ?blade? of the word: it is inherent to the way the speaker dissects the reality he has gathered, hunted, and brought home (Whorf, of course!). > > Last night (well, the night before last now), my wife and I returned to Seoul. Our suitcase arrived in baggage claim with a yellow plastic lock that played a pleasant ringtone, but was accompanied by a plainclothes policeman who notified us that our bag had been identified as containing a dangerous weapon. > > About four days ago, coming down from the mountains in Western Sichuan, we passed through one of the villages of the Tushan people, who, until about a generation ago, were a nomadic forest tribe practicing slash and burn agriculture to supplement a diet of hunting and gathering. > > The area is now a panda reserve. So the government has endeavoured to persuade the Tushan to settle in villages like the one we passed through, called Bai Ma (although I noticed that there were still slash and burn plots dotting the mountainside around the village). > > The villagers, erstwhile hunters and gatherers, don't really know how to make a living, so they flag your car down and try to sell you stuff. I bought about a kilo of their yellow plums, obviously gathered in the forest and very tasty, and my brother-in-law found some watermelon knives he liked, which had sheaths made of the horn of some animal and hilts beautifully sculpted with the profile of an old man. > > The Tushan insisted that the old man was Genghis Khan, a man some of them claim as an ancestor. (Of course, 8% of Asian men are descended from him, but it is also said that he died of dysentery contracted in the Gansu town of Tianshui [literally, ?heavenly water?!]) > > When we left for Seoul, my brother-in-law looked at the old man on the handle and decided one of them would make a good present for my father (a.k.a. Genghis Khan). But the customs official who took it out of our suitcase only had eyes for the blade: scimitar shaped and about twenty centimeters long. (Who knows, maybe Genghis Khan was really trying to cut a watermelon with it, and the blade slipped. > > My poor brother-in-law had forgotten the most important difference between tools and symbols, and also between meaning and sense, between social usage and personal use; one, but only one, can be used in an autocentric way. Or not, as the case may be. > > David Kellogg > (Unemployed) > > > > On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 5:45 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > >> I didn't mean to confuse you, Annalisa. But Andy and and the various >> philosohers on this list have used expressions that I in turn find very >> confusing and I suppose I have also confused in my own turn. It is one of >> the hazards of putting together people from different backgrounds without >> proper intellectual social distancing. >> >> Here are two statements from philosophy that linguists like me find >> confusing: >> >> a) Everything is one hundred percent mediated and one hundred percent >> unmediated. >> >> b) (I)t is argument about the beginnings of philosophy, not psychology, >> and certainly about the distinction between basic and higher mental >> functions. >> >> I find the first statement confusing, because it seems to me to rule out >> "more" or "less" as applied to mediated and unmediated. This rules out the >> possibility that children develop more mediated functions (e.g. volitional >> attention, semanticized perception, logical memory, verbal thinking) on the >> basis of less mediated functions (involuntary attention, optical/aural >> perception, eidetic memory, and purely practical intelligence). Andy has >> now amended this to two separate yes/no questions ("Is objectivity mediated >> for the subject?" "One hundred percent yes." "Is objectivity unmediated for >> the subject?" "One hundred percent yes"). By separating it into two >> different clauses, Andy is reproducing the grammar of the original Hegel in >> dialogic form, but he is also acknowledging the inadequacy of the >> translation that he announced he would not discuss because it is too clear. >> >> I find the second statement even more confusing: I am not sure how one >> can discuss the distinction between basic and higher mental functions >> without beginning psychology, but you can apply to Andy for details on what >> exactly he meant. >> >> Vygotsky (and Vera John-Steiner, and the other leading representtive of >> the New Mexico school which you are associated with) believed in higher and >> lower functions. This was common among psychologists at the time, but it >> was not a way of quantitatively comparing subjects. It was usually >> interpreted in a dualistic way--like a two story house, with immediate >> perception on the lower floor (animals and infants) and higher perception >> on the upper (angels and aduls), immediate attention (like when you hear >> thunder and jump) on the lower floor and voluntary attention (the ability >> to listen to somebody's meanings and edit out all the pauses and fillers) >> on the upper. >> >> Vygotsky pointed out that the two were just as linked as they were >> distinct (that was what Ruqaiya Hasan always got out of Vygotsky and she >> was right). Vygotsky also thought that all the rooms in the supposed upper >> floor were semantically joined through word meanings (because word meaning >> participates in the formation of all higher functions) creating a unified >> system. This is not true of lower functions: involuntary attention and >> practical intelligence are not developmentally linked the way that >> voluntary attention and verbal intelligence are, We know that Vygotsky >> criticized his own early work for seeing the higher and lower functions in >> the two-story house way and not seeing that the higher functions are >> systemically linked. A lot of my own interest in systemic-functional >> linguistics, an approach that has nothing to do with the sentence >> diagramming you refer to, is about seeing those higher functions as >> systemically linked through wording (lexicogrammar), and not simply through >> word meaning (lexis). The latter was Ruqaiya's critique of Vygotsky, and >> Andy has strongly objected to it as treating Vygotsky as a linguist. >> >> Brabantio: What profane wretch art thou? >> Iago: I am one, sir, that comes to tell you your daughter and the Moor >> are making the beast with two backs. >> Brabantio: Thou art a linguist. >> Iago: You are---a philosopher. >> >> (Othello, Act I Scene I, but perhaps my logical/verbal memory misgives me >> there at the end...) >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!QPRn2_tuZRB9hkHJGZJkH3y7JUbXQTUjfPD3KvI8wm1UNSL76RuqyF6u6YNMh3Brlb9M0w$ >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QPRn2_tuZRB9hkHJGZJkH3y7JUbXQTUjfPD3KvI8wm1UNSL76RuqyF6u6YNMh3AzkbrCqg$ >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 4:56 AM Annalisa Aguilar >> wrote: >> >>> Hi David and Andy, >>> >>> When I read this: >>> >>> "b) Chiaroscuro paintings are equally both dark and light in >>> Caravaggio's time and in our own." >>> >>> >>> I would have interpreted this to mean that paintings are 50% dark and >>> 50% light. Not 100% dark and 100% light. I suppose this depends upon where >>> one places the parentheses. I can't remember exactly how to diagram >>> sentences, and I would be difficult for me to do that here in an email >>> client, but what of this: >>> >>> (Chiaroscura (paintings)) are (equally both) ((dark) and (light)) (in >>> (Carraviagio's (time)) and (in (our (own [time]))). >>> >>> or >>> >>> (Chiaroscuro (paintings)) are (equally (both ((dark) and (light))) (in >>> Caravaggio's (time)) and (in (our own ([time]))). >>> >>> I would never have presumed something could be 100% X and 100% Y unless >>> we were talking about two separate, but joined, entities. >>> >>> In that case I'd interpret this to mean that the definition of >>> Chiaroscuro paintings no matter what historical period have two types, what >>> might be called white paintings and what might be called black paintings. >>> Say, were there an opposite of Film Noir, called Film Blanc. And these were >>> related paintings because of similar painting methods and composition, and >>> even subject matter, but one is predominantly dark the other predominantly >>> white. >>> >>> Of course nothing like this does exist in Art History, but it is >>> conceivable to discuss painting genres in just this way. >>> >>> --- >>> >>> Then, I also wanted to point out that psychological can be biological >>> (as in what the brain and nervous system, etc does to take in perceptual >>> data, and respond accordingly, such as with walking, balancing a cup in >>> one's hand not to spill the contents, or vigilance to protect one's >>> children while walking through a crowded airport). This include the limbic >>> system, yes? >>> >>> And psychological can be introspective (I'm not sure whether it is the >>> proper word, forgive me, but I mean the subjective experience of the person >>> who retrieves memories, lays down neuroses to compensate from past traumas, >>> enjoy fantasies or imaginations, or simply possesses a more unobstructed >>> sense of self (than a less unobstructed sense)). >>> >>> If one can accept this dualism in the human body it is possible for >>> experience to be 100% mediated and 100% unmediated, depending upon which >>> system is being activated and how the two are working in tandem or >>> separately, or whether one is overpowering the other. >>> >>> Isn't it so? >>> >>> Also, I have a curious question to ask. What is the dividing line >>> between higher function and lower function? Are there classifications? >>> >>> Is this scenario possible: >>> >>> In Subject A there are 20 lower functions and 5 higher functions >>> In Subject B there are 20 lower functions and 20 higher functions >>> In Subject C there are 10 lower functions and 20 higher functions. >>> In Subject D there are 5 lower functions and 5 lower functions >>> >>> Taking age out of the equation, in that we suppose they are all the same >>> age, and also for control, they have similar environments, caregiving, >>> nutrition, and education, etc. I would ask this: >>> >>> Does a lower function imply a corresponding higher function? In that >>> lower function 1x will in time with proper environmental inputs develop >>> into the higher function 1X? Or can 2 lower functions only produce 1 higher >>> function? >>> >>> Or can 3 lower function produce in varying proportions 5-8 higher >>> functions. >>> >>> Such as function 1ab + 2cd creates function 1ac, 2ac, 1bd, 2abd, 1bcd, >>> 2ad, 1ad, etc. >>> >>> In Subject A, can we assume that there is potential to develop 15 (or >>> more) additional functions in the subject's future? >>> >>> In Subject B, can we assume that there can be still further development >>> beyond 20 higher functions that grow out from the original 20 lower ones? >>> >>> In Subject C, can we assume that superior plasticity has afforded "more" >>> development from less available resources, such as a person with a >>> disabiilty (like blindness, deafness) has developed additional higher >>> functions most others would never develop, say a keen sense of smell, >>> haptic ability, or visual acuity? >>> >>> In Subject D, can we assume that no further development can occur >>> because there is not enough "material" present in the lower functions for >>> any extended development into higher functions, such as an infant suffering >>> from brain asphyxiation during birth. >>> >>> Just trying to understand how one is slicing the orange, or peeling it, >>> etc. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of David Kellogg >>> *Sent:* Friday, May 22, 2020 3:39 PM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> >>> But this is not the exact quote. It is only a translation. The exact >>> quote is this: >>> >>> >>> >>> ("...) da? es nichts gibt, nichts im Himmel oder in der Natur oder im >>> Geiste oder wo es sei, was nicht ebenso die Unmittelbarkeit enth?lt als die >>> Vermittlung, so da? sich diese beiden Bestimmungen als ungetrennt und >>> untrennbar und jener Gegensatz sich als ein Nichtiges zeigt." (There is >>> nothing given, neither in heaven nor in nature nor in mind nor in wherever >>> it may be, which is not equally the unmediated contain alongside the >>> mediated, so that both of these two determinations (i.e. determining >>> something as unmediated or as mediated--DK) prove to be inseparable and >>> inextricable, and their contrast (or their opposition--DK) proves nul." >>> >>> >>> What's the difference between the exact quote and the translation? As I >>> pointed out to Andy, the translation puts "equally" and "both" in the same >>> clause, while the original German has them in two different clauses. >>> Compare: >>> >>> a) Chiaroscuro paintings are both dark and light, and this was equally >>> true for Caravaggio as for us. >>> >>> b) Chiaroscuro paintings are equally both dark and light in Caravaggio's >>> time and in our own. >>> >>> Statement a) is true enough, although as Mike points out it is the >>> beginning of a concrete genetic analysis and not the end. But statement b) >>> is utterly false: it puts an end to all genetic analysis and abolishes >>> development altogether. It says, uselessly, that all paintings are 100% >>> dark and 100% light and so the only genetic analysis possible is one of >>> changing self-consciousness, either in the painter or the viewer. This is >>> an idealist dialectic, and it is certainly not a historical one. >>> >>> Similarly, it is one thing to say that all psychological functions are >>> both mediated and unmediated, and this is equally true for lower functions >>> as it is for higher functions. For example, when I look at a painting by >>> Caravaggio or a film by Derek Jarman, the rod cells in my retina and my >>> optic nerve are mediating the experience as well as my cerebral cortex and >>> my biographical knowledge of Caravaggio. >>> >>> But it's very different to say that all psychological functions are >>> equally both mediated and unmediated, or 100% mediated and 100% >>> unmediated. In addition to the arithmetical absurdinty, this does not allow >>> me to distinguish between lower and higher psychological functions. >>> >>> (And I do think this is how Andy gets his notion that when two things >>> are different we cannot say that one is more developed than the other. Yet >>> higher psychological functions do indeed presuppose lower functions but not >>> the other way around. Andy calls this difference and not development; I >>> call it equally both difference and development.) >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!QPRn2_tuZRB9hkHJGZJkH3y7JUbXQTUjfPD3KvI8wm1UNSL76RuqyF6u6YNMh3Brlb9M0w$ >>> >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* * Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QPRn2_tuZRB9hkHJGZJkH3y7JUbXQTUjfPD3KvI8wm1UNSL76RuqyF6u6YNMh3AzkbrCqg$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 2:13 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> And it is worth noting that Hegel wrote this in the 1810s simply on the >>> basis of logical criticism of Kant and Jacobi (a contemporary sharing some >>> views with Descartes). And yet it took more than a century (if I'm not >>> mistaken) to make its way into hard science. Here's how he explains it: >>> >>> ? 66 >>> That said, we continue to stand by the position that immediate knowing >>> is to be taken as a fact. With this, however, the consideration is directed >>> towards the field of experience, to a psychological phenomenon. ? In this >>> respect, it should be noted that it is one of the most common experiences >>> that truths (which one knows very well to be the result of the most >>> intricate and highly mediated considerations) present themselves >>> immediately in the consciousness of someone conversant with such knowledge. >>> Like everybody else who has been trained in a science, the mathematician >>> immediately has at his fingertips solutions to which a very complicated >>> analysis has led. Every educated person has immediately present in his or >>> her knowing a host of universal viewpoints and principles that have >>> resulted only from repeated reflection and long life experience. The >>> facility we have achieved in any sphere of knowing, also in fine art, in >>> technical dexterity, consists precisely in having those sorts of >>> familiarity, those kinds of activity immediately present in one?s >>> consciousness in the case at hand, indeed, even in an activity directed >>> outwards and in one?s limbs. ? In all these cases the immediacy of knowing >>> does not only not exclude its mediation; to the contrary, they are so >>> connected that immediate knowing is even the product and result of knowing >>> that has been mediated. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 22/05/2020 1:59 pm, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Both HAVE TO BE present at once, Andy or there is no perception. >>> Mike >>> >>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 8:55 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> Yes, last week in our Hegel Reading Group we read the section in the >>> Shorter Logic, following his critiques of Kant and Descartes, Hegel >>> explains how thought is both immediate *and* mediated, and even over >>> Zoom I could see the clouds gradually receding from my young students' >>> eyes. All of a sudden the whole fruitless argument between scepticism and >>> dogmatism, relativism and historicism, fell away. The most difficult thing >>> to grasp was how perception was not just immediate and mediated, but both >>> were essentially present in the same moment, how without the cultural >>> training of the senses the brain could not make any sense at all of the >>> nervous stimulation of the organs of sight, etc. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> PS. the exact quote from Hegel is: "there is nothing, nothing in >>> heaven, or in nature or in mind or anywhere else which does not equally >>> contain both immediacy and mediation" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/hl/hlbegin.htm*0092__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QPRn2_tuZRB9hkHJGZJkH3y7JUbXQTUjfPD3KvI8wm1UNSL76RuqyF6u6YNMh3BGL9Kg2g$ >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 22/05/2020 9:20 am, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> This is a point I have struggled to make for many years, Andy. I didn't >>> know I was quoting Hegel: >>> >>> Hegel: >>> 'Everything is both immediate and mediated." >>> >>> The challenge is to rise to the concrete with this abstraction or its >>> just la la la. >>> >>> mike >>> >>> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 6:42 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> Of course, Annalisa, I agree that Science is a moral practice, but that >>> is not what is at issue here. >>> >>> >>> Two issues concern me with what you have said: (1) the question of "who >>> decides?" and (2) the quantification of development as in "more evolved" >>> bringing with it the implication of moral value attached to development. >>> >>> >>> (1) The discovery of the "social construction of reality" was an >>> achievement of the Left, the progressives, with people like the Critical >>> Psychologists, the theorists of postmodernism and post-structural feminists >>> in the 1970s an 80s, who exposed how taken-for-granted facts along with the >>> truths of Science were on closer inspection ideological products of >>> dominant social groups. Of course, how reality is *seen *is an >>> inseparable part of how reality *is*. This insight led to a range of >>> powerful theoretical and practical critiques of all aspects of society. >>> Feminists offered an alternative way of interpreting reality as a powerful >>> lever for changing that reality by undermining patriarchal structures and >>> certainties. So far so good. But today, in 2020, it is not progressives who >>> are asking "who decides?" and calling into question the very idea of truth >>> and fact: it is Donald Trump and Rudi Giuliani. Quite honestly, this >>> outcome was always implicit in the postmodern and poststructuralist >>> critique. Or, could I say: "Donald Trump is a more evolved form of Judith >>> Butler" if I thought in those terms, which I don't. >>> >>> >>> Hegel takes up this problem with the maxim: "Everything is both >>> immediate and mediated." Yes, social interests dominant in a certain social >>> domain by definition determine what is true in that domain (though >>> remember, every social domain is finite and has its boundaries). But that >>> is not just by saying something about an* independently existing* >>> reality which can be subject to any number of *alternative* >>> representations (as Kant would have it), but rather the dominant social >>> interests *determine that reality itself*. They do that both *immediately >>> *and * through the ideal representation* of that reality which is *part >>> of that reality*. You can't "decide" by a purely discursive moves - you >>> have to *change *that reality. You do that with the weapons of both >>> theoretical and practical critique. >>> >>> >>> What this means is that you can study the documents (assuming you >>> weren't personally present) of some past dispute and see with your own eyes >>> how and why some people formulated new word meanings, and began to use >>> these new word meaning(s) in their own communication, and thereby >>> facilitated others from using this word meaning, and the relevant concepts, >>> in their work, and so on. >>> >>> >>> (2) As perhaps I have illustrated in my example above that there is no >>> implication of "higher" in development. In my own education, it was Sylvia >>> Scribner's "Uses of History" (1985) which explained this to me. "Higher" >>> implies comparison and comparison in turn implies *interchangeability*. >>> For example, if I was considering whether to emigrate to the US or France, >>> I might consider public safety as a metric and decide that France was >>> superior to the US and make my decision accordingly. Or, I might consider >>> job availability for an English-speaking monoglot like me as the metric, >>> and decide that the US was superior to France. But to decide that the US is >>> superior to France or vice versa without the choice and the relevant metric >>> is the moral judgment which neither you nor I find acceptable. They're just >>> different. >>> >>> >>> Understanding word meanings and concepts entails an analysis of *both *how >>> the word is used in the field in question, and the history as to how it >>> came to be so. Using the concept of "germ cell," I can work my way back and >>> forth through an etymological field, forensically, like a detective, until >>> I can connect the particular use of the word which emerged as a germ cell >>> at some earlier time, in some situation where the implication of choosing >>> that word meaning was abundantly clear to all, which allows me to see >>> *why* someone felt the need (now forgotten) to introduce the word >>> meaning and what it's absence would mean here and now, where it is already >>> taken for granted. >>> >>> >>> My apologies for the unacceptably long message, which is much against my >>> own mores, but I don't know how to clarify these issues more succinctly. >>> >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 20/05/2020 3:51 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>> Hi Andy, >>> >>> I suppose the issue about being on a branch of evolution has more to do >>> with who decides what the branch is. Is it time? or is it topical? or is it >>> based upon the interlocutors? >>> >>> If we say one word usage is more "evolved" than another, I suppose I am >>> just pushing back on that because who decides what is more evolved? >>> >>> Forgive me, but can we ever say that if something is more "evolved" it >>> is actually better? What do we actually mean when we say something is >>> evolved? >>> >>> What if one term lasts over a longer arc of time than another usage? It >>> seems if we use the evolution rubric, it would be considered more "fit" >>> than the one that is changing over the same period of time. >>> >>> I do find it helpful that you to bring up the germ cell and how that >>> concept pertains to analysis. That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm glad to >>> know that to assign the parentheses does entail an ideological move, and >>> that that can't be escaped. As long as we know what the ideology is, there >>> is transparency in our analysis. >>> >>> I do think moral evaluations are worth including on all discussions, not >>> necessarily to forbid discussions or scientific pursuits, but to use as >>> landmarks to keep our bearings. Scientific concepts have a way of not being >>> inclusive of contexts (i.e., lived experiences) or being grounded, right? >>> >>> Perhaps this is what made Vygotsky such a humane and compassionate >>> scientific thinker is that he could understand how scientific concepts can >>> be abusive tools for oppression. Anchoring them in lived experience shows >>> their validity. Would this be a fair statement to you, Andy? >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on >>> behalf of Andy Blunden >>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:23 PM >>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> >>> Annalisa, "where does history start"? Effectively there is no starting >>> point, and the choosing of a starting point is always an ideological move. >>> Foucault does this to great effect. Ilyenkov deals with this in his book >>> "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's Capital" and explains the need for >>> what he calls the "logical-historical method." To short circuit the >>> complexities of reading Ilyenkov, in CHAT we rely on the identification of >>> the unit of analysis or "germ cell" to anchor our historical investigation. >>> >>> >>> "Sociogenesis" is just Latin for "social development," the word I used. >>> But if you are going to ascribe a moral value to "evolution" and then >>> reject the concept on that basis, you'd better also reject "development" >>> and all the "geneses" and evolution of species by natural selection and all >>> modern biology while you are at it. Alternatively, you could choose >>> *not* to ascribe moral values to scientific concepts, then the whole of >>> science is open to you. >>> >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 18/05/2020 3:25 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>> Hi Andy (& VO's), >>> >>> I think that that was my point, that we cannot capture everything in the >>> word to describe the theory. And that is because of the limit of our >>> language. >>> >>> Even where genesis actually is, where something starts can be difficult >>> to pinpoint. I mean where does History actually start? >>> >>> These words that you mention phylogenesis, ethnogenesis, ontogenesis, >>> are words that are like brackets of a pair of parentheses. Who decides >>> where to put them? (And why not sociogenesis?) >>> >>> I'm not sure it's correct to say the choice of a word locates the user >>> on a branch of a cultural evolutionary tree, because then that starts to >>> mean that one speaker is more evolved than another based on the use of a >>> word. >>> >>> It might be better to say that the choice of a word locates the user to >>> a particular context. I could live with that. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on >>> behalf of Andy Blunden >>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:27 PM >>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> >>> You're never going to succeed in formally capturing the full scope of >>> the theory in a word, Annalisa. "socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical >>> activity theory" still leave out biology and Darwin, which is a part of our >>> theory, too. >>> >>> >>> It is sometimes said that human development is the coincidence of *four* >>> processes: *phylogenesis *(i.e., evolution of the species), cultural >>> development (*ethnogenesis*, the development of technology *and *language), >>> *social development* (one and the same culture has different classes >>> and political groups side by side) and *ontogenesis *(even twins can >>> grow up very differently according to the experiences (*perezhivaniya*) >>> they go through). I tried to describe this in: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/ontogenesis.htm__;!!Mih3wA!QPRn2_tuZRB9hkHJGZJkH3y7JUbXQTUjfPD3KvI8wm1UNSL76RuqyF6u6YNMh3BJBAHlrg$ >>> >>> >>> >>> But if you look into the history of a word what you will inevitably find >>> is that at some point (in time and social space) there was some dispute, >>> and this dispute was either (1) resolved by both parties agreeing and >>> marking this agreement by the coining of a new word meaning or the dropping >>> of a word meaning altogether, or (2) there is a split and one or both sides >>> of the split adopt a word meaning which distinguishes them from the other >>> side (structuralism's favourite trope) or variations on the above scenarios. >>> >>> >>> So the choice of a word tends to locate the user on a branch in the >>> cultural evolutionary tree. >>> >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 17/05/2020 11:56 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>> David K & VO's >>> >>> What pray-tell is an anthropologue? >>> >>> I am divided (pun intended) about saying that sociocultural = social + >>> culture, when they are intertwined holistically. To me, sociocultural >>> points to a space in between, or perhaps better said to a context of >>> interactions between individuals (who form a society) that are easily >>> accepted among them and practiced over time. >>> >>> We can conceptually parse out the social and the cultural, but don't we >>> do that because of the words and not because of the ostensible reality >>> going on interactionally? Can we always understand something by dissecting >>> it into parts? >>> >>> Again, this seems to be the limit of language, not of the conceptual >>> context or content. >>> >>> In a sense to use the term "sociocultural" is to grab the tail of the >>> tiger. The tail of the tiger is still the tiger, but perhaps a more >>> manageable one than to grab its head. >>> >>> Perhaps this is why Vygotskians just call themselves Vygotskians to >>> align themselves with the source of the first theories rather than to later >>> conceptions and other developments (i.e. Leontiev, etc). Just thinking out >>> loud. >>> >>> Another argument is that if we want to be all inclusive, then we have to >>> include tool-use, as it's not the social, the culture, and the history, but >>> also the language and tools used. I realize some practitioners would say >>> that language is no different than a tool, but I feel language is >>> different, even though it may have a similar cognitive response in the mind >>> as would using a tool. >>> >>> Activity suggests tool use, though not always. Consider dance, or >>> storytelling, or going for a walk. >>> >>> How about: socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory??? >>> >>> Yes! I am writing this a little tongue in cheek. I hope you do not mind. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalsia >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on >>> behalf of David Kellogg >>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:14 PM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> It's a very domain-specific umbrella, like those cane-brollies that go >>> with a bowler. "Sociocultural" is strongly preferred used in second >>> language acquisition, thanks to the influence of Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf >>> and Matthew Poehner; I have never seen "cultural historical" used in this >>> literature. But "cultural-historical" is similarly preferred in psychology >>> and anthropology, thanks to the influence of J.V. Wertsch, Mike >>> Cole, Martin Packer and Andy Blunden; that's really why we are having this >>> discussion on what "socio-cultural" might mean on a list largely populated >>> by roving psychologists and nomadic anthropologues. >>> >>> Interestingly, the Francophones prefer "historico-cultural", using the >>> argument that you can understand the process without the product but not >>> the product without the process. I stopped using "sociocultural" because I >>> thought it was redundant, but now I am really not sure of this: it seems to >>> me that the relationship is a similar one--you can study society as process >>> without studying its cultural product (e.g. as demographics, economics, >>> statistics) but you can't really study culture without some understanding >>> of the process of its formation. >>> >>> There was a similar disagreement in systemic functional linguistics >>> between Halliday and Jim Martin over the term "socio-semiotic". Martin said >>> that it was redundant, because there couldn't be any semiotic without >>> society. Halliday rather flippantly replied that ants had a society without >>> a semiotics, and at the time it seemed to me that this was a non >>> sequitur, first of all because ants don't really have a society in >>> our sense (precisely because there is no such thing as an ant history >>> separate from phylogenesis on the one hand and ontogenesis on the other) >>> and secondly because ants most definitely do have a semiotics, albeit one >>> based on chemistry and not perception as ours is. >>> >>> It seems to me, in retrospect, that the relationship between the >>> semiotic and the social is much more like the relationship between the >>> social and the biological, or even the biological and the chemical. The >>> semiotic is a certain level of organization that the social has, but there >>> are other levels, just as biology is a certain kind of chemical >>> organization which does not exclude other, nonbiological ways organizing >>> chemicals, and chemistry is a kind of physical organization which doesn't >>> exclude sub-chemical organizations. >>> >>> Perhaps we can think of the relationship between culture and society in >>> the same way? >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!QPRn2_tuZRB9hkHJGZJkH3y7JUbXQTUjfPD3KvI8wm1UNSL76RuqyF6u6YNMh3Brlb9M0w$ >>> >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* * Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QPRn2_tuZRB9hkHJGZJkH3y7JUbXQTUjfPD3KvI8wm1UNSL76RuqyF6u6YNMh3AzkbrCqg$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David H Kirshner wrote: >>> >>> 4. As an umbrella term for any sociogenetic approach. >>> >>> Isn?t that its current usage? >>> >>> David >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> *On Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar >>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Andy, and VO's, >>> >>> >>> >>> What fascinates me is that the word "sociocultural" has a lot of >>> different facets in terms of how the word was used in different contexts. >>> It seems there are three I've been able to pick out. >>> >>> 1. as a derisive term in early Soviet history. >>> 2. as an empowering term from Latin American voices. >>> 3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist "brand" at the height of the >>> Cold War in the US. >>> >>> I'm not sure if I've done justice in the manner that I've represented >>> that, but it is a well-intended attempt. Are there others? >>> >>> >>> >>> What I don't understand fully is whether there must be ONE explanation >>> how the term came to be, or ONE definition of what it actually means. Can't >>> it be polysemantic? polycontextual? >>> >>> >>> >>> If that is what's happening, then it makes sense that there would be an >>> ongoing controversy about which one is the right definition or reason for >>> not using it, depending on the interlocutor. >>> >>> >>> >>> If we are to talk about who used the term first, and that's where the >>> value/authority holds, then all that tells us is that for those who value >>> who used the term first. that's where the authority is. >>> >>> >>> >>> If we talk about the emotional attachment of the word as it is used in >>> context and that's where the value/authority holds, then that tells us for >>> those who value the most personal attachment to the word, that's where the >>> authority is. >>> >>> >>> >>> If we talk about how the word was used functionally, where the >>> value/authority holds in its efficacy, then all that tells is that for >>> those who value whether the word works or not, that's where the authority >>> is. >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not sure one can put any of one these over the other two (or if >>> there are more than that, if there are more). All we can say I suppose is >>> whether in a particular context is the word "sociocultural" appropriate or >>> not? >>> >>> >>> >>> I do find that this debate has begun to have its own life, this debate >>> over the use of a word. I've begun doubt it will ever cease. >>> >>> >>> >>> One day the discussion will be how one used to debate about the term, >>> first everyone was this way about the word, than they were that way about >>> the word, and many large camps were formed in XXXX year to say why the word >>> should not be used, but then X years later other large camps formed to say >>> it is fine to use the word. I suppose it will only be when the debate >>> ceases will it come to pass that the debate will be forgotten. But will >>> that cessation solidify the use or non-use of the word? >>> >>> >>> >>> I understand the reasons for saying "cultural psychology." But for those >>> swimming in a culture where behaviorism is considered the soul of >>> psychology, adding "cultural" becomes a sad necessity. Even then, that >>> necessity only depends upon how one sees culture, as either as an additive, >>> an integral ingredient of psychology, or its basis. I believe I've read on >>> the list that one should be able to say "psychology" and just *know* that >>> it includes culture. I don't think we are there yet. >>> >>> >>> >>> Then that would be my argument to use "sociocultural" to understand it >>> includes history. CHAT is sort of a defensive term (well, it is an >>> acronym). But then... it leaves out "social" and is that OK? We certainly >>> should not say sociocultural historical activity theory because that >>> acronym is very unfulfilling. What is nice about CHAT though is that to >>> chat is an activity of speech, and there is a implied meaning that also >>> pertains to Vygotskian theories, and therefore meaningful. >>> >>> >>> >>> In a sense, it's not the meaning that we are arguing over, but how the >>> limitations of our particular language fails to convey a meaning with such >>> precision that it thereby to parses away any other inappropriate meaning. >>> I'm just not sure that the project is one that can be achieved >>> successfully, even if it succeeds for an interim. >>> >>> >>> >>> At the same time I can see why story of the elephant and the blind men >>> also have a part to play in our understandings and assumptions. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of Andy Blunden >>> *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM >>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? >>> >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> >>> Annalisa, I have only been talking and writing about Vygotsky and co. >>> since about 2000 and have been openly Marxist since the 1960s (indeed, >>> Vygotsky is core to how I understand Marx) and never had any reason not to >>> be. But it is true that when Mike first went to Moscow, it was at the >>> height of the Cold War, and when he and others first brought Vygotsky's >>> ideas to the USA, there was a lot of resistance to their Marxist content. I >>> think the naming issue only arose as Vygotsky and the others began to build >>> a real following. The issues with the choice of name change over the years, >>> as you say. I prefer" CHAT," but sometimes I use "Cultural Psychology" and >>> sometimes I use "Activity Theory" depending on the context. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>> Andy, et al, >>> >>> >>> >>> I sort of came to this a little late in the thread, but I can offer that >>> Vera John-Steiner didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian >>> theory, but as I learn more about the word (thank you Mike), I can see how >>> once a word is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard for the >>> association to be broken. >>> >>> >>> >>> I think it's that way with words all the time coming and going out of >>> favor, or meanings shifting, like the game of telephone, but across >>> generations and cultures. >>> >>> >>> >>> Might I contribute to the discussion by asking whether the use of >>> "sociocultural" was also a means of making the theories more available in >>> the West (at least in the US). It seems there was redscare (you are welcome >>> read the double entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as you like) >>> prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the Marxist "brand" to >>> access the actual theories on child development? In other words, to >>> depoliticize the science? >>> >>> >>> >>> I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but as time passes, I can >>> see its problems. >>> >>> >>> >>> For me, I had preferred the word because historical was always a given >>> for me. In concern of the here and now, the real difficulty I had thought >>> was understanding the social- how interactions between the child and the >>> caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the -cultural, how the culture >>> impacts thought, those things are more of the micro level, but also >>> sociocultural, how the two also can interact and influence one another and >>> that combined bears its own signature on the mind and its development. As >>> far as History (capital H) that is sort of difficult to measure when we are >>> talking about child development as there is very little history that a >>> child has, unless we are talking about genetics, I suppose. >>> >>> >>> >>> Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect and am enriched by >>> the discourse in which we now we find ourselves immersed about it so thanks >>> to all for this. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on >>> behalf of Andy Blunden >>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM >>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> -- >>> >>> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what >>> fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QPRn2_tuZRB9hkHJGZJkH3y7JUbXQTUjfPD3KvI8wm1UNSL76RuqyF6u6YNMh3D8RP_Iug$ >>> >>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>> >>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200525/49cc538b/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Sun May 24 17:27:23 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 20:27:23 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ? In-Reply-To: References: <408b2f74-64a0-f714-1e74-2da3168d881c@marxists.org> <3ab4ae8b-57fa-a714-6b91-078a4b75f782@marxists.org> <36147263-58ba-6908-ce60-bc367719772e@marxists.org> <71876107-fad8-3a23-2bd9-35d13d923268@marxists.org> <76d5fed9-4397-5cf6-aed4-d537df05af17@marxists.org> Message-ID: I loved re-reading that and a host of other old posts today, David. Very cool that you and Nikolai ended up working together ( https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/OcxfVQxe6JI__;!!Mih3wA!SkYhaRM8TOy89VOvIwzZ6-UMIXwOt_jl0kRuZVnW5EJrmDyK-V8Lua5rHG7skH1kv7q09w$ ) after some energized, mildly tense exchanges early on. As an onlooker, this archive can be quite neat in that regard. On Sunday, May 24, 2020, David Kellogg wrote: > Thanks, Rob. I am not sure where I got "bladeless knives without handles" > (Mad Magazine when I was a kid, probably....) I'm sure I didn't make it > up. But when I read the attached post, I can recognze all my usual facial > tics...far-flung and far-fetched comparisons, sudden changes of subject, > picturesque details a propos nothing in particular. That much I did make up! > > It was shortly afterwards I suggested doing a book on puppets, and you > were kind enough to edit the mess into "The Great Globe and All Who It > Inherit". It was a book which had almost nothing to do with > puppets. because I blew through my puppet budget and still only had enough > of them for the teacher, so we would teach the kids to use their fingers > and their imaginations instead (headless puppet without handle). > > I notice that it was wildly unpopular as an actual book, but > people download individual e-chapters from Springer quite a bit. When I do > teach the book, I find the redundancy of the structure helpful for > internalizing the argument (Halliday-Vygotsky-Shakespeare in every > chapter). I had always thought that single chapters and e-books > were equally both bladeless knives without handles. > > (But what do I know? Authors never really know what they are doing. That's > why God made editors, you know....) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/__;!!Mih3wA!SkYhaRM8TOy89VOvIwzZ6-UMIXwOt_jl0kRuZVnW5EJrmDyK-V8Lua5rHG7skH0OXI96vg$ > 167607 > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SkYhaRM8TOy89VOvIwzZ6-UMIXwOt_jl0kRuZVnW5EJrmDyK-V8Lua5rHG7skH074b0duw$ > > > > > On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 8:19 AM Robert Lake > wrote: > > This has always been one of my favorite phrases of your David Kellogg(2011 > :-). > [xmca] Bladeless Knives Without Handles > ------------------------------ > > - *To*: Culture ActivityeXtended Mind > - *Subject*: [xmca] Bladeless Knives Without Handles > - *From*: David Kellogg > - *Date*: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 20:29:50 -0700 (PDT) > - *Delivered-to*: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > - *Dkim-signature*: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com > ; > s=s1024; t=1312514990; bh=ZTwBpevYMpENXk2UOfvblO+lutaUeMcfccMk8Wdkx84=; > h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From: > Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=IXH/ > urTk8sUk6cnSkj3y8aF3aoE8c58BLUEQvGDfnYXRhyZNGjUlGpPj4SaY/ > jXGGUU/PsX3U1uSHupOR/wE4nNGkUx9rYIVPA+utSFSybh8UezbGY2z1l7/ > zL3Emq3OrNW0haXYozvsVL6Ox6/mzitKGeX1F4bgvbzMqMwVCPg= > - *Domainkey-signature*: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d= > yahoo.com > ; > h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From: > Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b= > 0S1dEibEyzneLw0TgC4q1XiggO2GpLR62Cal2+dXI8vLP1oevRRJEKtBX7vN26kSfCPg > sprFeNbaHKrxaTcrd5dgluUigFsqDoZfd4tzaPowdu6AhJG94PGENr+oP39/ > 0jC4F0tdUFal9TMtDq+heW6w3l8QKBuC9Och3A1tg1Y=; > - *In-reply-to*: < > > CAGaCnpwhsvC+OFjajk8HA4m+ooqqfK0-e=BGSys_0fCCVmCryw@mail.gmail.com > > > - *List-archive*: > - *List-help*: > > - *List-id*: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > - *List-post*: > > - *List-subscribe*: , < > mailto:xmca-request@weber.ucsd.edu?subject=subscribe > > > - *List-unsubscribe*: , < > mailto:xmca-request@weber.ucsd.edu?subject=unsubscribe > > > - *Reply-to*: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > - *Sender*: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu > > ------------------------------ > > A few belated comments, some of them appreciative but mostly quite critical, about Fernando Gonzalez Rey?s ?Re-examination of Defining Moments? and his notion of sense. > > a) Both Rey and Veresov (in his article ?Vygotsky Before Vygotsky?) emphasize NEGATION in their periodization: they stress absolute differences between the early Vygotsky (interested in art, literature, imagination, creativity, emotion, and personality) and middle Vygotsky (interested in completely unrelated notions such as history, culture, mediation, tools, symbols, and internalization). I think there is indeed a very important distinction to be made, but I think it is more like the distinction between explanans and explanandum than either writer would like to admit. For example, isn?t an artwork a kind of instrument? Doesn?t art work involve the use of both tools and symbols? It is more than a little suggestive that both Rey and Veresov appear to distinguish a ?real? Vygotsky concerned with individual development from a false, objectivist and institutionalized Vygotsky concerned with Marxist psychology and (to link this thread to the > last discussion article) the Soviet social project. Rey does take this project much further than Veresov, and tries to split Vygotsky away from cultural-historical psychology altogether (whereas Veresov simply tries to split off the early Vygotsky from Marxism). > > b) Both Rey and Veresov stress that they are the FIRST to make this distinction (and thus ignore each other, as well as writers (Mauricio Ernica, Gunilla Lindqvist) who have made similar points in a less ambitious, less absolutist and (as a result) more acceptable fashion. For example, van der Veer and Kozulin have taken into account the clear examples of reflexological terminology in ?Psychology of Art? (even idiots like me! See ?The Real Ideal? in the LCHC discussion papers pigeonhole); actually the whole work uses as a unit of analysis an ?aesthetic reaction?. Oppositely, there are those pesky works by Vygotsky himself, e.g. ?Imagination and Creativity in the Adolescent? which came out in 1931 at the very nadir of Vygotsky?s supposedly ?objectivist? period. Of course, knowing how hard it is to get published in MCA, I quite understand the temptation to make extravagant claims of priority and extreme claims of periodization. > Still, I can?t help but wonder how it is that our respected, (even feared!) reviewers could so easily have had the wool pulled over their eyes! > > c) Rey appears to me to be trying to establish sense as a psychological category rather than a linguistic one, that is, as a matter of belief and identity rather than speaking role and reference. I agree that simply putting in culture between the subject and object in the form of an objective tool-like ?meaning? will not work; the historico-cultural project founded by LCHC was to examine differences in cognition made by culture, and not simply material artefacts. I also agree that calling both tools and symbols "artefacts" (ideal or material) does not do anything other than to account for them historically and genetically; it doesn't, for example, help to distinguish them functionally and structurally. But I don?t think that trying to de-historicize and de-culturize sense will work either, for a very simple reason: there is no such thing as sense without established (historic-culturally established) meaning, just as there is no > meaning-making without actual sense, without mentally reconstructing the mind of the interlocutor.Psychological sense without (historic-cultural) meaning and meaning without sense are both both meaningless and senseless. > > It seems to me that sense without historico-cultural meaning is a bladeless knife without a handle. That is because sense is not simply part of the user-friendly handle of a word; it is also inherent to the way that it is interpreted by the interpreter. > > Similarly, meaning is not simply part of the environment-friendly ?blade? of the word: it is inherent to the way the speaker dissects the reality he has gathered, hunted, and brought home (Whorf, of course!). > > Last night (well, the night before last now), my wife and I returned to Seoul. Our suitcase arrived in baggage claim with a yellow plastic lock that played a pleasant ringtone, but was accompanied by a plainclothes policeman who notified us that our bag had been identified as containing a dangerous weapon. > > About four days ago, coming down from the mountains in Western Sichuan, we passed through one of the villages of the Tushan people, who, until about a generation ago, were a nomadic forest tribe practicing slash and burn agriculture to supplement a diet of hunting and gathering. > > The area is now a panda reserve. So the government has endeavoured to persuade the Tushan to settle in villages like the one we passed through, called Bai Ma (although I noticed that there were still slash and burn plots dotting the mountainside around the village). > > The villagers, erstwhile hunters and gatherers, don't really know how to make a living, so they flag your car down and try to sell you stuff. I bought about a kilo of their yellow plums, obviously gathered in the forest and very tasty, and my brother-in-law found some watermelon knives he liked, which had sheaths made of the horn of some animal and hilts beautifully sculpted with the profile of an old man. > > The Tushan insisted that the old man was Genghis Khan, a man some of them claim as an ancestor. (Of course, 8% of Asian men are descended from him, but it is also said that he died of dysentery contracted in the Gansu town of Tianshui [literally, ?heavenly water?!]) > > When we left for Seoul, my brother-in-law looked at the old man on the handle and decided one of them would make a good present for my father (a.k.a. Genghis Khan). But the customs official who took it out of our suitcase only had eyes for the blade: scimitar shaped and about twenty centimeters long. (Who knows, maybe Genghis Khan was really trying to cut a watermelon with it, and the blade slipped. > > My poor brother-in-law had forgotten the most important difference between tools and symbols, and also between meaning and sense, between social usage and personal use; one, but only one, can be used in an autocentric way. Or not, as the case may be. > > David Kellogg > (Unemployed) > > > > On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 5:45 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > > I didn't mean to confuse you, Annalisa. But Andy and and the various > philosohers on this list have used expressions that I in turn find very > confusing and I suppose I have also confused in my own turn. It is one of > the hazards of putting together people from different backgrounds without > proper intellectual social distancing. > > Here are two statements from philosophy that linguists like me find > confusing: > > a) Everything is one hundred percent mediated and one hundred percent > unmediated. > > b) (I)t is argument about the beginnings of philosophy, not psychology, > and certainly about the distinction between basic and higher mental > functions. > > I find the first statement confusing, because it seems to me to rule out > "more" or "less" as applied to mediated and unmediated. This rules out the > possibility that children develop more mediated functions (e.g. volitional > attention, semanticized perception, logical memory, verbal thinking) on the > basis of less mediated functions (involuntary attention, optical/aural > perception, eidetic memory, and purely practical intelligence). Andy has > now amended this to two separate yes/no questions ("Is objectivity mediated > for the subject?" "One hundred percent yes." "Is objectivity unmediated for > the subject?" "One hundred percent yes"). By separating it into two > different clauses, Andy is reproducing the grammar of the original Hegel in > dialogic form, but he is also acknowledging the inadequacy of the > translation that he announced he would not discuss because it is too clear. > > I find the second statement even more confusing: I am not sure how one can > discuss the distinction between basic and higher mental functions without > beginning psychology, but you can apply to Andy for details on what exactly > he meant. > > Vygotsky (and Vera John-Steiner, and the other leading representtive of > the New Mexico school which you are associated with) believed in higher and > lower functions. This was common among psychologists at the time, but it > was not a way of quantitatively comparing subjects. It was usually > interpreted in a dualistic way--like a two story house, with immediate > perception on the lower floor (animals and infants) and higher perception > on the upper (angels and aduls), immediate attention (like when you hear > thunder and jump) on the lower floor and voluntary attention (the ability > to listen to somebody's meanings and edit out all the pauses and fillers) > on the upper. > > Vygotsky pointed out that the two were just as linked as they were > distinct (that was what Ruqaiya Hasan always got out of Vygotsky and she > was right). Vygotsky also thought that all the rooms in the supposed upper > floor were semantically joined through word meanings (because word meaning > participates in the formation of all higher functions) creating a unified > system. This is not true of lower functions: involuntary attention and > practical intelligence are not developmentally linked the way that > voluntary attention and verbal intelligence are, We know that Vygotsky > criticized his own early work for seeing the higher and lower functions in > the two-story house way and not seeing that the higher functions are > systemically linked. A lot of my own interest in systemic-functional > linguistics, an approach that has nothing to do with the sentence > diagramming you refer to, is about seeing those higher functions as > systemically linked through wording (lexicogrammar), and not simply through > word meaning (lexis). The latter was Ruqaiya's critique of Vygotsky, and > Andy has strongly objected to it as treating Vygotsky as a linguist. > > Brabantio: What profane wretch art thou? > Iago: I am one, sir, that comes to tell you your daughter and the Moor are > making the beast with two backs. > Brabantio: Thou art a linguist. > Iago: You are---a philosopher. > > (Othello, Act I Scene I, but perhaps my logical/verbal memory misgives me > there at the end...) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/__;!!Mih3wA!SkYhaRM8TOy89VOvIwzZ6-UMIXwOt_jl0kRuZVnW5EJrmDyK-V8Lua5rHG7skH0OXI96vg$ > 167607 > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SkYhaRM8TOy89VOvIwzZ6-UMIXwOt_jl0kRuZVnW5EJrmDyK-V8Lua5rHG7skH074b0duw$ > > > > > On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 4:56 AM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi David and Andy, > > When I read this: > > "b) Chiaroscuro paintings are equally both dark and light in Caravaggio's > time and in our own." > > > I would have interpreted this to mean that paintings are 50% dark and 50% > light. Not 100% dark and 100% light. I suppose this depends upon where one > places the parentheses. I can't remember exactly how to diagram sentences, > and I would be difficult for me to do that here in an email client, but > what of this: > > (Chiaroscura (paintings)) are (equally both) ((dark) and (light)) (in > (Carraviagio's (time)) and (in (our (own [time]))). > > or > > (Chiaroscuro (paintings)) are (equally (both ((dark) and (light))) (in > Caravaggio's (time)) and (in (our own ([time]))). > > I would never have presumed something could be 100% X and 100% Y unless we > were talking about two separate, but joined, entities. > > In that case I'd interpret this to mean that the definition of Chiaroscuro > paintings no matter what historical period have two types, what might be > called white paintings and what might be called black paintings. Say, were > there an opposite of Film Noir, called Film Blanc. And these were related > paintings because of similar painting methods and composition, and even > subject matter, but one is predomin > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200524/7bd5a412/attachment.html From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Mon May 25 02:25:02 2020 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 10:25:02 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Annalisa Good Morning - just a correction to figures about poverty in our town - I should have been more careful,; fortunately the figures from memory were an underestimate rather than an exaggeration: Almost 30,000 children are living in poverty across Teesside - and half are from working families. And stark new statistics reveal that the picture is worst in central Middlesbrough - as hyper-local, official Government data reveals three quarters of all kids in one neighbourhood are living below the breadline. Regards Tom BoWen On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 22:17, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Alas, hello again Tom (& VO's), > > While I accept your assessment of our differences in approaches and > understandings, I do not see that it is obvious that there is no meeting > point. > > For example, innovation exists in science and in art, in business it is > entrepreneurship. I believe that there are good things that come from > business entrepreneurship, and there are bad things too. We love that art > and science are innovative, when they are, but there can be failings there > too. > > The captains of industry who believe they are self-made men, and who > believe that anyone who decides for oneself being on the assembly line of > the manufacturing floor is only a dumb pawn in a larger game, would be in > my estimation the worst that kind of human that entrepreneurship generates. > Elon Musk is one example, perhaps. > > As much as I likely would not want Elon Musk over for dinner, I can admire > that he has been able to steward the creation of an electric car in the > midst of a sleepwalking auto industry that cannot envision automobiles > without a gas-eating combustible engine. > > At the same time what he gives he takes away: I'm not sure that I can ever > get on board a space rocket to inhabit Mars. I actually object to that > project because as long as we haven't worked out how to feed everyone on > this earthship, we should not be escaping it by polluting another planet, > even if, as Carl Sagan told us, there are billions and billions of them out > there. > > "They" in the form of (other they)'s do not have power unless we give them > that power. That power is always up for debate every minute, every day, > every year. > > Given that there are now 38 million unemployed in the US (I can't name the > numbers elsewhere and I'm sorry about that), that's like the entire > population of California being on the dole. It is a significant number, and > it may be that many of those people start their own businesses, not because > of education or desire, but of necessity. > > Many of the young and unemployed are educated. That could be a combustible > cocktail, depending upon their self-awareness and outward worldview. > > One strange article in NYT described a scene designer who has been out of > work since the health order shutdown, and hasn't received any unemployment > yet because she filed in New Jersey, while her partner did because he filed > in New York. Then she got an offer to work in a company who is making ... > wait for it.... facemasks, so now she is toiling over a machine, sewing > facemasks. > > I don't think I could live in that situation because of the stark irony, > if that is a just word for that. I mourn the loss of her creativity, but I > hope it is temporary. > > Now out of necessity, she's had to travel that path. So I can agree with > you that because of the government order to shut down business, and because > a company who hired her decided to make facemasks, because what other > ingenious product would or could one manufacture right now? they have > shaped her working life. Have they shaped her social life, though. I mean > completely? She still has her contacts on her iPhone, she likely returns > home to her partner to cook dinner and search for more work. Her desires > and dreams are likely impacted, but has she completely given up? Should she? > > I am not pro-revolution, only because they create rivers of blood in > streets, etc. I'm more of the mind that incremental choices can together > create a tipping point of social change. > > For example, consider the tiny house movement. Or how young people will > share resources, or reevaluate buying things, or what they eat. > > People make the best lemonade only with the best lemons. > > There is going to have to be a reckoning of having so many unemployed > people. It can't be ignored. To just pretend that everyone will be happy > with a lower wage job (lower than when the pandemic hit), is only going to > drive people to desperate measures. The country will want to put people to > work and this could be an opportunity for collective change, for creating > meaningful jobs. > > Because who wants a civil war. > > So there will have to be some sort of appeasement for the social reality > that people must have their basic needs met. The temporary stimulus is a > lifeline, but the real economic difficulties will start when people start > to return to work, and there are less jobs with the result being there is > less money circulating in the economy overall. With interest rates so low, > and pumping more money into the economy is only going to raise the prices > of things, possibly wages, but not the buying power. > > People will cut bait from the lives they once had, and simplify. Moving to > less crowded cities and towns, returning to live with parents. Perhaps > creating cooperatives. One area for discovery with so much time on one's > hands is handcrafting. I think there will be a blooming of new businesses > that incorporate *real* labor. This may also usher in more vocational > training programs. > > One article I read today discussed the eating of meat, and how it is a > destructive social practice including its impact on climate change. Largely > that industry depends upon of automation, and now with slaughterhouses > being virus hotspots, do you want to trust that the meat you buy is not > tainted with COVID? Or that you are forcing a worker into an unsafe work > environment and catch the virus? > > If people were decide to stop eating meat, or reduce even its consumption > because it's too expensive, and if the government stops giving subsidies to > these agro-corporations, then these polluting companies will fail. That > would be great news. > > Then the writer pointed out that if we returned to diets higher in > plant-based food, that would increase demand for real farms, real > entrepreneurship and generate jobs, as it takes more people to grow > vegetables, than it does to raise pigs or chickens. We would also become > healthier as a population. There is already a network of farmer's markets > for local produce, so it may mean a growth in that area. > > I suppose what I'm trying to say is I do not think it is so cut and dried > that we are subject to the worst forever. I think with so much time on our > hands people are free to organize and decide to help one another in mutual > aid. We do not have to rely on traditional power structures, and we do not > have to resort to bloody revolutions. > > Depending upon what you are looking for in life, there is a third way > arising. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > *Sent:* Saturday, May 23, 2020 4:24 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Hello once more Annalisa > > Our difference of approach to and understanding of the modern state and > the production of social life obviously admits of no meeting point as far > as I read your astonishingly wide-ranging and impassioned response. > > Without the simplicity of my reply intending to signal a facile sarcasm, > I must bluntly state that I begin from the acceptance that nefarious or > not, 'They', in the sense of government and corporations, do have the power > to control and shape the organisation of social life. We can, if enough > socio-political pressure can be brought to bear through social movements, > rebellions, revolts, shift certain aspects of that fashioning of our lives. > > But at present, the relationship of wage slavery imposed by Capital ,and > the society shaped by that relationship, are dominant throughout the life > of our planet. > > Sad at such an impasse, since we both wish the best for humanity > > Tom > > > > On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 21:46, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Tom, and VO's of XMCA > > Concerning your questions about our new normal now that COVID19 is with us > and here to stay, I think your guess is as good as anyone's. I am not sure > if we as humans have ever been burdened with such an event as this, and at > the same time are able to watch the unfolding events and respond (or not > respond if you are a stable genius) quickly from the feedback of data, > news, anecdotes, and other forms of perception of how the virus is > impacting us. > > What is worth remembering as well, is that epidemiologists have been > warning us for decades that a pandemic was a clear an present danger to the > way we live and negotiate the modern world. We see in sensurround how right > they were. > > As I consider your question, I have to think that people mow might be > sorted into two classes, well at least two classes: > > > 1. People who seem to think the virus is just another flu and once we > find a vaccine, all will return to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December > Holiday or pre-pandemic time you mark your calendar as before the pandemic > hit, which of course depends upon where on the earth you are located). > 2. People who seem to think the virus has changed us and there will > never be going back to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday...) > > I suspect the Americans of the neo-conservative persuasion who have been > motivated to protest health order social distancing believe that not only > this is a conspiracy to control fredom-loving people, but that we should > return to Christmas 2019 as soon as possible, they are of Cohort 1. > > I think Cohort 2 are going to be people who take in the facts and the data > and are actively attempting to sort out where do we go from here. I feel > confident you are in Cohort 2, as ar most people on this list. > > Now, as Carol M has pointed out, in a lot of ways our discussion about > online learning is a first world concern, for those who have an internet > connection that is ubiquitous not only at home, but at school, work, on the > bus, on planes, in cafes, and other public gathering spaces, like city > halls, or town squares. That's another reason why it's hard to take Klein > seriously, in terms of *tone*. > > I recall reading something from George Lakoff when he indicates that there > is a liberal stance that seems to believe that if one objects loudly enough > with "sky is falling" rhetoric and then feed out various data, that using > this strategy the audience will become motivated to protest in the streets, > write letters to congress, run for office, or whatever civil action must be > done, and with alacrity. It doesn't work. I do not think being against > anything ever "works." I think only being for something works. > > Let's look at Klein's article as an example. If she were to be > rhetorically successful she would outline the problem she identifies (Mr. > Schmidt goes to Washington), but instead of all that is wrong, talk about > what can be right. Not to say she should agree with Mr. Schmidt and his > ways. > > I feel her article could be a lot heavier on what works with education and > how to enhance that further. She does mention how money should b used more > for school nurses, smaller classrooms, etc. This is where she could have > expanded beautifully into a viable solution to spark everyone's > imaginations. But she didn't do that. She is more motivated it seems to > mark Mr. Schmidt and his technological minions to masterminding a New World > Order that will steal our souls and tether us to the Matrix from now until > the end of time. > > I also feel she would have been more conducive to discourse by writing an > open letter to Cuomo and Schmidt, and to invite a response. This is also > leading by example to cultivate democratic processes that are near and dear > to all of us. Instead she "otherfies" them, and this is also not useful. > And I am not saying that as a stance to defend Mr. Schmidt or Gov Cuomo, in > any way. > > So back to your question, I do not think that there is any way we will be > extricated from this reality of COVID 19. We will have to pick our stones > across the river carefully so that none of us slips and is carried down the > rapids. I feel it is more useful to say we are a family of one kind, and > all of us have to stay together to make it across. And that all of us > deserves a life jacket as a measure of survival because not all of us will > get to the other side without getting wet, or falling in. > > The tension between CEOs and their contempt for the slow-food of democracy > is well known. If only they could persuade all of us to eat fast food, then > they could take over the world as the next McDonalds, in terms of > technological vision, whatever a McDonalds would look like on a screen, as > an app, whathaveyou. > > Unfortunately what seems to elude folks who have not worked in tech, or > those who see tech as just another new Ford in the garage, is that > technology is always in flux. There is always development of new hardware > that needs new software written to use it, so there is a double-quicksand > of events upon which technology is founded (and funded) upon. That's what > Moore's Law is about. > > Technology in order to "be itself" must always move fleetingly, like the > shark must to breathe. Technology will never be able to last the halls of > government. For that reason, any rendition of technology in government (and > school systems for that matter) will be like bad combovers that are meant > to convince us that we are now more attractive and appealing (not meaning > to offend those who live by their combovers...) > > Where I feel technology could best serve us is to help create grassroots > democracy tools, to support what we know is possible and could even > threaten the basis for representative democracy and bring it closer to a > straight agora democracy. > > Some might call this anarchy, and I could argue along the lines of David > Graeber that anarchy is a more pure form of democracy practiced in all > "primitive" or "ancient" cultures, it's not a perfect fit, and I intend to > make that reference loosely. My point is to say there should be what David > K calls involution of what government is, to what government was, and to > supplant that, or rather what causes those parts to be pushed to the > margins is to imagine a government where there is mor connection to > agora-like venues where one person speaking in a Zoom-like frame is of > equal stature of any other person speaking in the frame. One can sort of > imagine this with the Zoom-empowered senate hearings which I watched for a > while on the NYT front page. It was really strange to me. I suppose the > danger is that we get to hear Sally Mc? from Arizona use her time to blame > the Chinese for the virus, etc, for more time that we would like. But > that's democracy. > > So one fallout could be that grade-school kids and their resulting > perezhivanie from Zoom-based classrooms, will adopt the tool for political > discussions as adults. Might that be a good thing? > > Maybe. > > At the same time, do you remember a book that came out in the mid90s > called "Silicon Snake Oil"? This is yet another phenomenon of technology, > that people oozing charisma will claw their way to the microphone and pitch > an idea about the next vaporware, who will then make unsubstantiated > promises and claims directed to feed our fantasies and dreams, and who will > then abscond with all the money, only to request not to look at the man > behind the green curtain, or if pulled by the ear into a senate hearing > will say "I thought it was a good idea at the time." etc. > > I think that is the view of Klein about all technology, and there are > merits in that, but there are also other ways to think about it. > > This article about Marc Benioff in Wired recently discusses about the > social entrepreneurship of his wealth: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.wired.com/story/gospel-of-wealth-according-to-marc-benioff/__;!!Mih3wA!UzpqqoKO1pITTk2fSACEPEAKdX9lS-DB6KRcN_OsqP68UjnBttHBF_Z-qSWQ8Kd8M7AX-w$ > > Who by they way now owns the magazine Time, the way Jeff Bezos bought the > WaPo, and Lauren Jobs bought The Altlantic, and Pierre Omidyar funded The > Intercept. > > I do invite, as much as you can stomach, anyway, for any educators or > other members of our vibrant list to make regular reading of Wired > Magazine, which is a far more interesting read on technology than something > like Fast Company. I encourage this reading, if only to know the enemy, as > it were. Wired articles are far more nuanced and sophisticated than when > the magazine first got off the ground in the early 90s. I find reading it > helps to connect some dots for those who do not consume technology culture > all the time. Just pick and choose what you are curious about. > > We must become familiar with the vernacular of technology if we want a > hand in the game of how it plays in education, our stomping grounds. This > will require effort on our part. That is not to say we must adopt all the > shiny new toys. But we can be like a Consumer Report for education, and > evaluate and measure the good the bad and the ugly of technology and its > use in the edu sphere. > > We cannot sit on our laurels and wait for someone else to decide for us > how technology will be deployed. That stance is what the mythology of > inevitable technology rests and self-perpetuates. > > We must be more tech literate, and we must be the first to coin words and > how they manifest in edu venues. What works what doesn't. I don't see any > other way to fight back and to keep control of the educational narrative, > where of course we want to hardwire zopeds, manifest and lead critical and > nourishing perezhivanie, and model by example sterling mediated learning > experiences for students and teachers. > > What other projects can there be? > > For me, this is "fighting back" because it makes the sort of shark-like > entrepreneur recede for a time (as they will always be looking for a way > into edu's tax coffers), because we are successful getting education right. > > I do not accept that entreprenuership is what took the sanctity from > teaching and learning. But that's an argument to be made. I feel it is only > one side of the argument. > > Once I had an male acquaintance tell me that one reason women are in > inferior roles is because they let this happen to them. As you might > imagine, I had a real hard time with that argument and I had to clench my > jaw to now spew various vitriol upon him. But after I thought about it, in > a narrow sense he is not wrong because not it is true that enough women in > history identified the value to struggle for rights even if they would not > see equality in their own lifetimes. There are many explanations for why > that did not happen, that are not facile to depict. But then I also had to > think of how much women's struggles have succeeded because they did decide > to not let this happen to them anymore. But now women are learning in the > US, anyway, that nothing fought for is a permanent fixture, and so we must > become resigned to the perpetual struggle for equality, as all marginalized > people must. > > So now I direct this to our context of education in the venue of online > learning. This is not an easy question, and it is not intended to > trivialize the work and efforts of many on this list, but it is instead a > question of inner reflection, or a taking of inventory of one's own life: > > How much has each of you done to take measure and fight for meaningful > education in the classroom? > > Could you have done more? Can you do more? > > Then the same for asking yourself how have you integrated technology > appropriately into your learning methods and general perezhivanie. > > I hope this might provide some further food for thought concerning > preservation on the sanctity of learning and instruction in the classroom. > > So all this is to reply to you Tom, that in short, the nefarious They can > only take control if we let them. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ps please excuse all typos, which are all made on my own. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 11:26 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Hi Annalisa > > Thank you for providing the details of your deep and committed background > in distance / online learning. Mine is obviously shallow, which must have > triggered you and 'Robsub' somewhat. > > But my questioning is in the newer context of the Covid19 threats to > global society and the solutions being sought to extricate us from them. > > Governor Cuomo's conversation with Schmidt to examine solutions to the > problems of present coping and future emergence from the pandemic is > understandable. Two persons with power and a need to act, discuss what > technology (in its widest hard- and software aspects) has to offer. > > In a democracy we can assess the solutions they propose and shape them to > what we know to be as near to optimal for our society as possible. Your > assertion of the efficacy of our agency which Klein seems to deny, > with her politico-economic caveats. > > Schmidt has an evangelism for the potential of technology, but expressed > with such restraint - he's no zealot. He also, in the video of the ECNY > conversation with Marie-Josee Kravis, sees the lack of 'simplicity' in the > three-tier democratic system of the US. He is a CEO with an organisation > geared to problem-analysis, solution choices, and operational capability > which can be put into action without delaying debate. He expressed no > hostility to 'democracy' but as he said, it does not work simply. > > Klein reminds us to be wary if not alarmed, not because she is despairing > (I believe), but because that direct entrepreneurial drive has profit > making as its unavoidable aim. Whatever Schmidt's humanistic feelings, if > profit doesn't result from his and his companies actions, they will not > survive. That competitive drive is also present in his aspirations for > international dominance (see his remarks on the rise of China's technology). > > So far, the sort of distance / online learning you have worked on, has > been nested in the context of family and (normal) school life. That > normality had implicit in it human values, customs and structures, whatever > differences of class, race, gender and culture were present. The melding of > state and enterprise in a newly-developing novel (5G?)high-tech 'solution' > to mediating education presents a situation which need to be examined I > believe. And my query, in that 'Kleinian' context was looking for answers > from those, like yourself, with wide experience of previous technological > 'answers' and their implications for the results within the learner. > > I affirm, along with you, the irrepressible resistance and sheer > cantankerousness we humans bring to unjust situations. But such fighting > back will often be unsuccessful in its aims, when the need to reduce labour > time with new technology is driving events - Luddism and machine looms? Our > human drive to change and adapt, our use of our agency to create or alter > our lives must not be suppressed. But what Klein is reminding us of is just > how tilted is the balance of power - the power of the state and behind it, > the drive from the vast corporate world, for profit. Our agency is so often > undone by the arbitrary intervention of those forces. > > Those are the forces which have destroyed what you name the 'sanctity' of > teaching and learning. I would name it the basic need for those goals, but > we share it. With the need to re-invigorate just such a precious resource, > we will continue to fight like hell. Despite their mere humanness, > corporations and states at present have greater knowledge and power than > 'mere' citizens. My intervention in xmca discussion was really to say > "They're looking to take even more control of daily life. > Within academia, you can analyse how they are making such changes happen > and continue to alert the rest of us, if you fear the consequences of > their changes." > > Best wishes > Tom > > On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 22:29, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? > > Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We > looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, > once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always > a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed > by SL's prospects. > > In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, > I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that > students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one > another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological > fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would > ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. > > Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like > looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. > Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. > > What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, > which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open > space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was > perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. > > I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators > already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online > learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers > during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of > associations of place with learning. > > In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the > AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, > drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in > order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye > coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing > abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and > constrain learning to books. > > We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We > must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. > > I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the > situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of > learning. > > I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out > of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for > quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged > learning venues . Not with grade school. > > I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for > grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally > studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, > although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon > it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess > that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because > parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. > > I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, > nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. > > What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is > childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own > families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!UzpqqoKO1pITTk2fSACEPEAKdX9lS-DB6KRcN_OsqP68UjnBttHBF_Z-qSWQ8KcwnEd7_A$ > > > It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, > not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may > also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we > must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. > > It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom > to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the > classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. > > Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the > AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he > could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that > education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People > then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We > see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the > case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of > learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. > > If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to > already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support > well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be > integrated with existing models. > > If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way > to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money > will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. > > One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online > learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may > also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or > riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and > surveillance is a constructive combination. > > There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more > appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet > words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must > better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite > behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown > interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from > what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. > > This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a > mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and > introspection, I will never accept that reality. > > To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say > "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers > and pins." > > I just do not believe this narrative. > > We cannot give up. > > Is there a fight ahead? Yes. > > Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most > definitely, yes. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Hello Annalisa > Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost > none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of > human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour > acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. > > - What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment > created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the > widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such > learning takes place?'. > - What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes > for the *perezhivanie *of the learner, which shapes her social being > and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', > 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? > > Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet > listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what > is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. > I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is > within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. > > Kind regards > Tom > > > On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hello Tom, > > Thank you for posting the link. > > I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly > dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is > not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking > pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended > into our lives. > > I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It > reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and > resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has > become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. > > At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power > in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. > > Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill > Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as > the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment > facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include > Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding > flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his > billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). > > I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage > agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace > illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the > drug wars. These efforts are working. > > Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem > I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. > > She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID > (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control > the world. > > Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of > the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. > Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is > the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to > deliberate the way forward. > > As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to > control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, > or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in > ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be > construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency > to decide how to use our tools. > > Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt > will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled > children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional > online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. > > So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply > does not hold water for me. > > I hope this might be a little encouraging. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Hello Tom Richardson > This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat > Project" that has just finished its > planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human > development, and theories of "Development > in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by > the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. > Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to > actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. > The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of > essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. > In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most > dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced > a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most > members of this discussion over the years, > is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations > have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting > a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). > > We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social > science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp > speed and its invisible. > > Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about > for 100 years. > Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing > working models of effective practices that do NOT > assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. > > Thanks for asking. > mike > > > > On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > > Greetings Xmca-ers > I would like to raise a question. > In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major > questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, > democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international > competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan > approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to > these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been > happening recently: > > > "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks > after that article appeared, he described > the > ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the > country had been forced to cobble together during this public health > emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. > > The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids > learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote > and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will > help kids learn better.? " > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!UzpqqoKO1pITTk2fSACEPEAKdX9lS-DB6KRcN_OsqP68UjnBttHBF_Z-qSWQ8Ke5r0r16A$ > > > > Just asking > Tom Richardson > Middlesbrough UK > > > > -- > > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, > translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. > For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net > > . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200525/73ea7f36/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Mon May 25 11:47:32 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 18:47:32 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [External] Re: Are Zoomspace and Meatspace Equally Both Mediated? In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Hello, Michael, I never liked the term "meatspace" either. I prefer to use the acronym IRL which means "in real life." Also for another useful acronym (for ZOOM, and also in chatrooms, etc), is AFK, which means "away from keyboard" and that has a lot of nuanced meaning, as to whether someone has just stepped away from the computer momentarily, or is just not answering to prompts even if their image is present. To others, I have to say I am not a technology zealot, though I am pro technology literacy. Everyone whether we like it or not, is just learning ZOOM, as a tool to mediate whatever we aim to do on ZOOM. Learning how to read is necessary to survive in the world. What you read is up to you. No one would say, "It's better not to learn to read, because then you will never know what you are missing." Everyone knows that learning to read is not just about reading literature in a classroom. It's about reading restaurant menus, bus schedules, way-through signs at hospitals, newspapers, or even the scrolling texts along the bottom of TV screens. There are so many places in society where we benefit from knowing how to read, even if it means we dismiss what we read. The same is now becoming more true with using technology tools. I humbly disagree that there is no social presence on ZOOM, it's just different. Just like social presence on the phone is different than in person. Social presence is also different if one is in a dyad or sitting with a mass of people, say at a movie theater or on a bus. Perhaps what is stumping us is that we are trying to use what we know of other social presences, and projecting those codes upon ZOOM, and this is likely not going to work. We have to create etiquettes that pertain to ZOOM. In the same way one has particular etiquettes on the phone, as opposed to when one wants to pass a stranger on a narrow street in the time of a virus pandemic, are also going to be different. To say that the younger generations haven't worked this out, I just don't believe it. It's just different. If anything, we as adults just haven't "decoded" it. If the kids aren't engaged, perhaps it's because they think the teacher isn't activating the social presence that they have been able to activate with their peers, and so they "zoom out" rather than "zoom in." One of the problems I see is that we forget that we do not take ourselves into account. We may have to abandon own rigidness for the sake of learning ourselves! They say as we age, it is hard to be flexible, especially when the very attribute that is required to learn something new is to be flexible. If you are resistant to ZOOM, perhaps inquire how much of it is the tool and how much of it is you? I'm not saying that it's all you, but I'm also not saying it's all the tool. I'm just saying ask the yourself the question and see what it is that is revealed in your inquiry. If it's uncomfortable, then it means you are having to learn something new that you are unfamiliar with. Try creating new etiquettes with those that you are interacting with on ZOOM, and see if that helps the flow of things. All of this is going to fail or succeed, it just means keep experimenting, until you hit a flow. Then it will start to be automatic, and then you won't even think about it anymore that it was once such a struggle. It's always this way, right? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Dr. Elizabeth Fein Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2020 9:07 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [External] Re: Are Zoomspace and Meatspace Equally Both Mediated? [EXTERNAL] I've been part of a small group of friends that do Zoom karaoke together on Saturday nights during quarantine. It's a lot of fun, but it's also been very helpful in practicing and calibrating a sense of presence over Zoom. Every song is an opportunity to practice a different sort of character, a different emotional style, and the fact that you can see yourself while you're doing it provides some feedback. We all know each other a bit offline as well, so there's that sense of social presence and history that we can compare to whoever we are when we are singing Don Henley or Portishead or whatever. Michael, your post helped me understand why it's felt so important to me to keep this up - I feel like it's helping me figure out a wider range of conveying myself, and observing others, through this medium. Best, Elizabeth ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Glassman, Michael Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2020 10:17 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [External] [Xmca-l] Re: Are Zoomspace and Meatspace Equally Both Mediated? Hi David, For what it?s worth I can give you my take on why Zoom does not work in the same way as face-to-face (I have never heard the term meatspace before. I am not sure I like it, although it is very descriptive). There are a couple of things missing from Zoom that we are used to in face-to-face. There are two issues I can think of which have been termed but have not been deeply explored. I am not sure where mediation fits with either. They are teacher presence and social presence. Garrison?s Community of Inquiry model discusses these but does not go deeply in to them. Teacher presence actually goes back to face-to-face research. Teacher presence is the way students read their teachers when they are together in a classroom context. What early research suggested is that language is actually one of the least important aspects of teacher presence. Much more impactful are things like body language, tone of voice, eye contact. Students over the course of their academic careers come to read all these, and those who are best at reading them (I would say usually people who shared similar historical and familial backgrounds ? but this is conjecture) do the best in classes. From how my Korean students have described the education system there, teacher presence is extraordinarily important, perhaps because of the subtleties of the culture, perhaps because the student populations can be very homogeneous. With Zoom you loose almost all of these qualities and students are desperately trying to understand their immediate relationship with the teacher, or just anecdotally just give up and go play games. It can be incredibly frustrating. It also works the other way I think. We sometimes take for granted how important it is to read a room from the qualities of the audience. I have been on a number of Zoom meetings where speakers who are very aware in face-to-face meeting just went on far too long, losing the room. It can be very disconcerting. The other issue is social presence. This is actually a concept that goes back to the dominance of the telephone but we still seem to know incredibly little about it. It is the sense that there are corporal beings out there, acting as an audience and as a point of reflection. We tend to lose momentum and interest if we feel we are throwing out feedback into a void. My experience is that unless you have critical experience with individuals off-line, more than just being in a classroom, it is really difficult to build social presence. The earliest research suggested that when there is a distance most of what we can do is give orders and respond. Zoom does not do well with social presence, but perhaps worse it gives you a false sense of social presence. You think, well I can see them and they can see me so why shouldn?t there be social presence? It leads to dangerous assumptions and frustrations and I think it also a reason why so many instructors and students become frustrated with Zoom classes. A sort of ?this should be working better than it is.? But actually, maybe it shouldn?t. Vygotsky has an interesting passage in chapter six. Where he talks about teaching the student in school and then having them go home and continue exploring the concept. I sort of think I know where he got that from (because it comes out of nowhere it seems) but this also might be because as I have mentioned I have been reading Stanislavski. In the chapters Vygotsky obviously had access to the narrator talks about starting to work on a role and then going home and continuing to work on it. The theatrical context can give us a good start. We can do good things working on the character by ourselves (facial expressions in front of a mirror) but, and this is the part Vygotsky does not include, or does he, you need to consolidate this development with others. You must bring the concept back in to a caring audience where it congeals with the work of others (a zone of proximal development). If Zoom does not give us an audience do we miss this really important step, because the students do not have a sense of social presence, and those that struggled with reading the teacher and reading the room struggle even more as they try and bring their conceptual thinking to fruition. Just some random thoughts on a coronavirus Sunday morning. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2020 8:34 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Are Zoomspace and Meatspace Equally Both Mediated? I have been teaching three classes on-line through Zoom since mid-March, and I have noticed very big differences in response patterns in Zoomspace and the same classes taught face-to-face in "meatspace" one year ago. Like Elizabeth Warren (when she taught at Harvard) I don't ask many "Anyone know?" questions; like Elizabeth Warren I have found that when you use "Anyone know?" questions, the rich just get richer and the poor stay poor. So I tend to ask a question and then tag it with a name. On the one hand, Zoom makes it easier to "go down the list" and make sure everybody gets a question (and you can change the list each time you do this, e.g. by switching from the Korean alphabet to the English one, so it doesn't LOOK like you are following a fixed order). On the other, Zoom produces very long pauses between the time I tag the question with a name and the time the tagged person starts a reply, much longer than face-to-face classes do. Last week I noticed, while transcribing the orals for some analysis, that the wait time was almost proportional to the scores: with some correction for male vs. female and Chinese vs. Korean students, I could predict the final score from the length of the pause. It also seemed to me that in general students who had fared worse with the conceptual material when I taught them in meatspace fared even worse with Zoom, while those who had done well in meatspace did even better on Zoom. Assuming all that is true, why should it be the case? Meatspace is, of course, mediated, but it's mediated face to face, through "nun chi" (that is, "the color/tone/ambiance of eyes"); Zoom makes it impossible to know which student the professor is looking at, approaching, gesturing to. Sight is one kind of mediation, sound is another, and of course silent text is a third, with all of the difficulties of mediation that LSV points out in Chapter 6 of Thinking and Speech. But LSV also points out that these difficulties represent not only difference but development. Students who can deal with silent text mediation of concepts are "higher" in the sense that by dealing with it, they prove that they can also deal with sound mediation, but the reverse need not be true. Similarly, students who can deal with sound mediation of visual-illustrative complexes (generalized representations, such as we find in school children) can deal with sight mediation--but not necessarily vice versa. Zoomspace and meatspace may be very similarly related, and it's in that sense that they are not equally both mediated. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VhWzAYZ2T6GnD9A9rVF8GzrTz-P7zOlU6LFD_XstV2MZZ0iDMF9y9PelVRwF0YVu4lLIuA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VhWzAYZ2T6GnD9A9rVF8GzrTz-P7zOlU6LFD_XstV2MZZ0iDMF9y9PelVRwF0YUYwz689A$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200525/ace66e07/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Mon May 25 11:56:31 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 18:56:31 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Tom and others, I agree that Capitalism is bad, and that it causes wealth and poverty in extremes. Which then creates social injustices that would be much lessened with less economic inequality. I do not think that I ever said (did I?) to ignore the traditional power structures. I said that every day we negotiate the power structures. And when we decide it's not working we can create change. That possibility is always an option, but it demands diligence, discipline, and discovery. All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is: 1. it's futile. Give up. The structures will always be against us. Settle in to your given hand of bad fortune. 2. grab a gun and kill as many people sitting in seats of power (which means the chair of power remains to be replaced by someone else). Forgive me if I reject both those options. As I said, perhaps in another post, the liberal position of citing data and objecting to the existence of that data, isn't going to make power structures change. What would make change is for those 15K-30K families to organize and among themselves decide how and what they can do to make their lot better. It's called organizing. Civil disobedience works because it is civil. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Tom Richardson Sent: Monday, May 25, 2020 3:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hi Annalisa Good Morning - just a correction to figures about poverty in our town - I should have been more careful,; fortunately the figures from memory were an underestimate rather than an exaggeration: Almost 30,000 children are living in poverty across Teesside - and half are from working families. And stark new statistics reveal that the picture is worst in central Middlesbrough - as hyper-local, official Government data reveals three quarters of all kids in one neighbourhood are living below the breadline. Regards Tom [https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://drive.google.com/uc?id=0B0zqMvyA6XEhZkdKSUk5eUxRUnNkbWZFdHlaRlpJci1fQ1lJ&export=download__;!!Mih3wA!UIHM3nCvIDECXNsu7lB2UbLFB8nssPSzGkUAYEbi8exTdvljxY3nu2acBSk0KpRcUpfz2Q$ ] BoWen On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 22:17, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Alas, hello again Tom (& VO's), While I accept your assessment of our differences in approaches and understandings, I do not see that it is obvious that there is no meeting point. For example, innovation exists in science and in art, in business it is entrepreneurship. I believe that there are good things that come from business entrepreneurship, and there are bad things too. We love that art and science are innovative, when they are, but there can be failings there too. The captains of industry who believe they are self-made men, and who believe that anyone who decides for oneself being on the assembly line of the manufacturing floor is only a dumb pawn in a larger game, would be in my estimation the worst that kind of human that entrepreneurship generates. Elon Musk is one example, perhaps. As much as I likely would not want Elon Musk over for dinner, I can admire that he has been able to steward the creation of an electric car in the midst of a sleepwalking auto industry that cannot envision automobiles without a gas-eating combustible engine. At the same time what he gives he takes away: I'm not sure that I can ever get on board a space rocket to inhabit Mars. I actually object to that project because as long as we haven't worked out how to feed everyone on this earthship, we should not be escaping it by polluting another planet, even if, as Carl Sagan told us, there are billions and billions of them out there. "They" in the form of (other they)'s do not have power unless we give them that power. That power is always up for debate every minute, every day, every year. Given that there are now 38 million unemployed in the US (I can't name the numbers elsewhere and I'm sorry about that), that's like the entire population of California being on the dole. It is a significant number, and it may be that many of those people start their own businesses, not because of education or desire, but of necessity. Many of the young and unemployed are educated. That could be a combustible cocktail, depending upon their self-awareness and outward worldview. One strange article in NYT described a scene designer who has been out of work since the health order shutdown, and hasn't received any unemployment yet because she filed in New Jersey, while her partner did because he filed in New York. Then she got an offer to work in a company who is making ... wait for it.... facemasks, so now she is toiling over a machine, sewing facemasks. I don't think I could live in that situation because of the stark irony, if that is a just word for that. I mourn the loss of her creativity, but I hope it is temporary. Now out of necessity, she's had to travel that path. So I can agree with you that because of the government order to shut down business, and because a company who hired her decided to make facemasks, because what other ingenious product would or could one manufacture right now? they have shaped her working life. Have they shaped her social life, though. I mean completely? She still has her contacts on her iPhone, she likely returns home to her partner to cook dinner and search for more work. Her desires and dreams are likely impacted, but has she completely given up? Should she? I am not pro-revolution, only because they create rivers of blood in streets, etc. I'm more of the mind that incremental choices can together create a tipping point of social change. For example, consider the tiny house movement. Or how young people will share resources, or reevaluate buying things, or what they eat. People make the best lemonade only with the best lemons. There is going to have to be a reckoning of having so many unemployed people. It can't be ignored. To just pretend that everyone will be happy with a lower wage job (lower than when the pandemic hit), is only going to drive people to desperate measures. The country will want to put people to work and this could be an opportunity for collective change, for creating meaningful jobs. Because who wants a civil war. So there will have to be some sort of appeasement for the social reality that people must have their basic needs met. The temporary stimulus is a lifeline, but the real economic difficulties will start when people start to return to work, and there are less jobs with the result being there is less money circulating in the economy overall. With interest rates so low, and pumping more money into the economy is only going to raise the prices of things, possibly wages, but not the buying power. People will cut bait from the lives they once had, and simplify. Moving to less crowded cities and towns, returning to live with parents. Perhaps creating cooperatives. One area for discovery with so much time on one's hands is handcrafting. I think there will be a blooming of new businesses that incorporate *real* labor. This may also usher in more vocational training programs. One article I read today discussed the eating of meat, and how it is a destructive social practice including its impact on climate change. Largely that industry depends upon of automation, and now with slaughterhouses being virus hotspots, do you want to trust that the meat you buy is not tainted with COVID? Or that you are forcing a worker into an unsafe work environment and catch the virus? If people were decide to stop eating meat, or reduce even its consumption because it's too expensive, and if the government stops giving subsidies to these agro-corporations, then these polluting companies will fail. That would be great news. Then the writer pointed out that if we returned to diets higher in plant-based food, that would increase demand for real farms, real entrepreneurship and generate jobs, as it takes more people to grow vegetables, than it does to raise pigs or chickens. We would also become healthier as a population. There is already a network of farmer's markets for local produce, so it may mean a growth in that area. I suppose what I'm trying to say is I do not think it is so cut and dried that we are subject to the worst forever. I think with so much time on our hands people are free to organize and decide to help one another in mutual aid. We do not have to rely on traditional power structures, and we do not have to resort to bloody revolutions. Depending upon what you are looking for in life, there is a third way arising. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 4:24 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hello once more Annalisa Our difference of approach to and understanding of the modern state and the production of social life obviously admits of no meeting point as far as I read your astonishingly wide-ranging and impassioned response. Without the simplicity of my reply intending to signal a facile sarcasm, I must bluntly state that I begin from the acceptance that nefarious or not, 'They', in the sense of government and corporations, do have the power to control and shape the organisation of social life. We can, if enough socio-political pressure can be brought to bear through social movements, rebellions, revolts, shift certain aspects of that fashioning of our lives. But at present, the relationship of wage slavery imposed by Capital ,and the society shaped by that relationship, are dominant throughout the life of our planet. Sad at such an impasse, since we both wish the best for humanity Tom On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 21:46, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hi Tom, and VO's of XMCA Concerning your questions about our new normal now that COVID19 is with us and here to stay, I think your guess is as good as anyone's. I am not sure if we as humans have ever been burdened with such an event as this, and at the same time are able to watch the unfolding events and respond (or not respond if you are a stable genius) quickly from the feedback of data, news, anecdotes, and other forms of perception of how the virus is impacting us. What is worth remembering as well, is that epidemiologists have been warning us for decades that a pandemic was a clear an present danger to the way we live and negotiate the modern world. We see in sensurround how right they were. As I consider your question, I have to think that people mow might be sorted into two classes, well at least two classes: 1. People who seem to think the virus is just another flu and once we find a vaccine, all will return to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday or pre-pandemic time you mark your calendar as before the pandemic hit, which of course depends upon where on the earth you are located). 2. People who seem to think the virus has changed us and there will never be going back to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday...) I suspect the Americans of the neo-conservative persuasion who have been motivated to protest health order social distancing believe that not only this is a conspiracy to control fredom-loving people, but that we should return to Christmas 2019 as soon as possible, they are of Cohort 1. I think Cohort 2 are going to be people who take in the facts and the data and are actively attempting to sort out where do we go from here. I feel confident you are in Cohort 2, as ar most people on this list. Now, as Carol M has pointed out, in a lot of ways our discussion about online learning is a first world concern, for those who have an internet connection that is ubiquitous not only at home, but at school, work, on the bus, on planes, in cafes, and other public gathering spaces, like city halls, or town squares. That's another reason why it's hard to take Klein seriously, in terms of *tone*. I recall reading something from George Lakoff when he indicates that there is a liberal stance that seems to believe that if one objects loudly enough with "sky is falling" rhetoric and then feed out various data, that using this strategy the audience will become motivated to protest in the streets, write letters to congress, run for office, or whatever civil action must be done, and with alacrity. It doesn't work. I do not think being against anything ever "works." I think only being for something works. Let's look at Klein's article as an example. If she were to be rhetorically successful she would outline the problem she identifies (Mr. Schmidt goes to Washington), but instead of all that is wrong, talk about what can be right. Not to say she should agree with Mr. Schmidt and his ways. I feel her article could be a lot heavier on what works with education and how to enhance that further. She does mention how money should b used more for school nurses, smaller classrooms, etc. This is where she could have expanded beautifully into a viable solution to spark everyone's imaginations. But she didn't do that. She is more motivated it seems to mark Mr. Schmidt and his technological minions to masterminding a New World Order that will steal our souls and tether us to the Matrix from now until the end of time. I also feel she would have been more conducive to discourse by writing an open letter to Cuomo and Schmidt, and to invite a response. This is also leading by example to cultivate democratic processes that are near and dear to all of us. Instead she "otherfies" them, and this is also not useful. And I am not saying that as a stance to defend Mr. Schmidt or Gov Cuomo, in any way. So back to your question, I do not think that there is any way we will be extricated from this reality of COVID 19. We will have to pick our stones across the river carefully so that none of us slips and is carried down the rapids. I feel it is more useful to say we are a family of one kind, and all of us have to stay together to make it across. And that all of us deserves a life jacket as a measure of survival because not all of us will get to the other side without getting wet, or falling in. The tension between CEOs and their contempt for the slow-food of democracy is well known. If only they could persuade all of us to eat fast food, then they could take over the world as the next McDonalds, in terms of technological vision, whatever a McDonalds would look like on a screen, as an app, whathaveyou. Unfortunately what seems to elude folks who have not worked in tech, or those who see tech as just another new Ford in the garage, is that technology is always in flux. There is always development of new hardware that needs new software written to use it, so there is a double-quicksand of events upon which technology is founded (and funded) upon. That's what Moore's Law is about. Technology in order to "be itself" must always move fleetingly, like the shark must to breathe. Technology will never be able to last the halls of government. For that reason, any rendition of technology in government (and school systems for that matter) will be like bad combovers that are meant to convince us that we are now more attractive and appealing (not meaning to offend those who live by their combovers...) Where I feel technology could best serve us is to help create grassroots democracy tools, to support what we know is possible and could even threaten the basis for representative democracy and bring it closer to a straight agora democracy. Some might call this anarchy, and I could argue along the lines of David Graeber that anarchy is a more pure form of democracy practiced in all "primitive" or "ancient" cultures, it's not a perfect fit, and I intend to make that reference loosely. My point is to say there should be what David K calls involution of what government is, to what government was, and to supplant that, or rather what causes those parts to be pushed to the margins is to imagine a government where there is mor connection to agora-like venues where one person speaking in a Zoom-like frame is of equal stature of any other person speaking in the frame. One can sort of imagine this with the Zoom-empowered senate hearings which I watched for a while on the NYT front page. It was really strange to me. I suppose the danger is that we get to hear Sally Mc? from Arizona use her time to blame the Chinese for the virus, etc, for more time that we would like. But that's democracy. So one fallout could be that grade-school kids and their resulting perezhivanie from Zoom-based classrooms, will adopt the tool for political discussions as adults. Might that be a good thing? Maybe. At the same time, do you remember a book that came out in the mid90s called "Silicon Snake Oil"? This is yet another phenomenon of technology, that people oozing charisma will claw their way to the microphone and pitch an idea about the next vaporware, who will then make unsubstantiated promises and claims directed to feed our fantasies and dreams, and who will then abscond with all the money, only to request not to look at the man behind the green curtain, or if pulled by the ear into a senate hearing will say "I thought it was a good idea at the time." etc. I think that is the view of Klein about all technology, and there are merits in that, but there are also other ways to think about it. This article about Marc Benioff in Wired recently discusses about the social entrepreneurship of his wealth: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.wired.com/story/gospel-of-wealth-according-to-marc-benioff/__;!!Mih3wA!UIHM3nCvIDECXNsu7lB2UbLFB8nssPSzGkUAYEbi8exTdvljxY3nu2acBSk0KpSdhgZ8zw$ Who by they way now owns the magazine Time, the way Jeff Bezos bought the WaPo, and Lauren Jobs bought The Altlantic, and Pierre Omidyar funded The Intercept. I do invite, as much as you can stomach, anyway, for any educators or other members of our vibrant list to make regular reading of Wired Magazine, which is a far more interesting read on technology than something like Fast Company. I encourage this reading, if only to know the enemy, as it were. Wired articles are far more nuanced and sophisticated than when the magazine first got off the ground in the early 90s. I find reading it helps to connect some dots for those who do not consume technology culture all the time. Just pick and choose what you are curious about. We must become familiar with the vernacular of technology if we want a hand in the game of how it plays in education, our stomping grounds. This will require effort on our part. That is not to say we must adopt all the shiny new toys. But we can be like a Consumer Report for education, and evaluate and measure the good the bad and the ugly of technology and its use in the edu sphere. We cannot sit on our laurels and wait for someone else to decide for us how technology will be deployed. That stance is what the mythology of inevitable technology rests and self-perpetuates. We must be more tech literate, and we must be the first to coin words and how they manifest in edu venues. What works what doesn't. I don't see any other way to fight back and to keep control of the educational narrative, where of course we want to hardwire zopeds, manifest and lead critical and nourishing perezhivanie, and model by example sterling mediated learning experiences for students and teachers. What other projects can there be? For me, this is "fighting back" because it makes the sort of shark-like entrepreneur recede for a time (as they will always be looking for a way into edu's tax coffers), because we are successful getting education right. I do not accept that entreprenuership is what took the sanctity from teaching and learning. But that's an argument to be made. I feel it is only one side of the argument. Once I had an male acquaintance tell me that one reason women are in inferior roles is because they let this happen to them. As you might imagine, I had a real hard time with that argument and I had to clench my jaw to now spew various vitriol upon him. But after I thought about it, in a narrow sense he is not wrong because not it is true that enough women in history identified the value to struggle for rights even if they would not see equality in their own lifetimes. There are many explanations for why that did not happen, that are not facile to depict. But then I also had to think of how much women's struggles have succeeded because they did decide to not let this happen to them anymore. But now women are learning in the US, anyway, that nothing fought for is a permanent fixture, and so we must become resigned to the perpetual struggle for equality, as all marginalized people must. So now I direct this to our context of education in the venue of online learning. This is not an easy question, and it is not intended to trivialize the work and efforts of many on this list, but it is instead a question of inner reflection, or a taking of inventory of one's own life: How much has each of you done to take measure and fight for meaningful education in the classroom? Could you have done more? Can you do more? Then the same for asking yourself how have you integrated technology appropriately into your learning methods and general perezhivanie. I hope this might provide some further food for thought concerning preservation on the sanctity of learning and instruction in the classroom. So all this is to reply to you Tom, that in short, the nefarious They can only take control if we let them. Kind regards, Annalisa ps please excuse all typos, which are all made on my own. ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 11:26 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hi Annalisa Thank you for providing the details of your deep and committed background in distance / online learning. Mine is obviously shallow, which must have triggered you and 'Robsub' somewhat. But my questioning is in the newer context of the Covid19 threats to global society and the solutions being sought to extricate us from them. Governor Cuomo's conversation with Schmidt to examine solutions to the problems of present coping and future emergence from the pandemic is understandable. Two persons with power and a need to act, discuss what technology (in its widest hard- and software aspects) has to offer. In a democracy we can assess the solutions they propose and shape them to what we know to be as near to optimal for our society as possible. Your assertion of the efficacy of our agency which Klein seems to deny, with her politico-economic caveats. Schmidt has an evangelism for the potential of technology, but expressed with such restraint - he's no zealot. He also, in the video of the ECNY conversation with Marie-Josee Kravis, sees the lack of 'simplicity' in the three-tier democratic system of the US. He is a CEO with an organisation geared to problem-analysis, solution choices, and operational capability which can be put into action without delaying debate. He expressed no hostility to 'democracy' but as he said, it does not work simply. Klein reminds us to be wary if not alarmed, not because she is despairing (I believe), but because that direct entrepreneurial drive has profit making as its unavoidable aim. Whatever Schmidt's humanistic feelings, if profit doesn't result from his and his companies actions, they will not survive. That competitive drive is also present in his aspirations for international dominance (see his remarks on the rise of China's technology). So far, the sort of distance / online learning you have worked on, has been nested in the context of family and (normal) school life. That normality had implicit in it human values, customs and structures, whatever differences of class, race, gender and culture were present. The melding of state and enterprise in a newly-developing novel (5G?)high-tech 'solution' to mediating education presents a situation which need to be examined I believe. And my query, in that 'Kleinian' context was looking for answers from those, like yourself, with wide experience of previous technological 'answers' and their implications for the results within the learner. I affirm, along with you, the irrepressible resistance and sheer cantankerousness we humans bring to unjust situations. But such fighting back will often be unsuccessful in its aims, when the need to reduce labour time with new technology is driving events - Luddism and machine looms? Our human drive to change and adapt, our use of our agency to create or alter our lives must not be suppressed. But what Klein is reminding us of is just how tilted is the balance of power - the power of the state and behind it, the drive from the vast corporate world, for profit. Our agency is so often undone by the arbitrary intervention of those forces. Those are the forces which have destroyed what you name the 'sanctity' of teaching and learning. I would name it the basic need for those goals, but we share it. With the need to re-invigorate just such a precious resource, we will continue to fight like hell. Despite their mere humanness, corporations and states at present have greater knowledge and power than 'mere' citizens. My intervention in xmca discussion was really to say "They're looking to take even more control of daily life. Within academia, you can analyse how they are making such changes happen and continue to alert the rest of us, if you fear the consequences of their changes." Best wishes Tom On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 22:29, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hi Tom, May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed by SL's prospects. In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of associations of place with learning. In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and constrain learning to books. We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of learning. I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged learning venues . Not with grade school. I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!UIHM3nCvIDECXNsu7lB2UbLFB8nssPSzGkUAYEbi8exTdvljxY3nu2acBSk0KpRCQxRy9g$ It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be integrated with existing models. If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and surveillance is a constructive combination. There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and introspection, I will never accept that reality. To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers and pins." I just do not believe this narrative. We cannot give up. Is there a fight ahead? Yes. Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most definitely, yes. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hello Annalisa Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. * What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such learning takes place?'. * What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes for the perezhivanie of the learner, which shapes her social being and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. Kind regards Tom On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello Tom, Thank you for posting the link. I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended into our lives. I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control the world. Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to deliberate the way forward. As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency to decide how to use our tools. Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply does not hold water for me. I hope this might be a little encouraging. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hello Tom Richardson This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat Project" that has just finished its planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human development, and theories of "Development in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most members of this discussion over the years, is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about for 100 years. Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing working models of effective practices that do NOT assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. Thanks for asking. mike On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson > wrote: Greetings Xmca-ers I would like to raise a question. In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening recently: "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks after that article appeared, he described the ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the country had been forced to cobble together during this public health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!UIHM3nCvIDECXNsu7lB2UbLFB8nssPSzGkUAYEbi8exTdvljxY3nu2acBSk0KpTqRODhRQ$ Just asking Tom Richardson Middlesbrough UK -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200525/fa4f1580/attachment-0001.html From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Mon May 25 13:21:09 2020 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 21:21:09 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Annalisa "All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is:" Since I have suggested neither of the alternatives you state as the only way forward, it would surely invalidate your further argument. But I must admit that the idea of thirty thousand working class families and then some, organising to change the wage-slavery employment system that they are exploited by, would be a great idea. Here's to that day, as the freely associated producers of our social life organise to end the destructive anarchy of our present free-market economies. Regards Tom On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 19:58, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Tom and others, > > > I agree that Capitalism is bad, and that it causes wealth and poverty in > extremes. Which then creates social injustices that would be much lessened > with less economic inequality. > > > I do not think that I ever said (did I?) to ignore the traditional power > structures. I said that every day we negotiate the power structures. And > when we decide it's not working we can create change. That possibility is > always an option, but it demands diligence, discipline, and discovery. > > > All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is: > > 1. it's futile. Give up. The structures will always be against us. Settle > in to your given hand of bad fortune. > > 2. grab a gun and kill as many people sitting in seats of power (which > means the chair of power remains to be replaced by someone else). > > > Forgive me if I reject both those options. > > > As I said, perhaps in another post, the liberal position of citing data > and objecting to the existence of that data, isn't going to make power > structures change. > > > What would make change is for those 15K-30K families to organize and among > themselves decide how and what they can do to make their lot better. > > > It's called organizing. > > > Civil disobedience works because it is civil. > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > *Sent:* Monday, May 25, 2020 3:25 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Hi Annalisa > Good Morning - just a correction to figures about poverty in our town - I > should have been more careful,; fortunately the figures from memory were an > underestimate rather than an exaggeration: > > Almost 30,000 children are living in poverty across Teesside - and half > are from working families. > > And stark new statistics reveal that the picture is worst in central > Middlesbrough > - > as hyper-local, official Government data reveals three quarters of all kids > in one neighbourhood are living below the breadline. > > Regards > > Tom > BoWen > > > On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 22:17, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Alas, hello again Tom (& VO's), > > While I accept your assessment of our differences in approaches and > understandings, I do not see that it is obvious that there is no meeting > point. > > For example, innovation exists in science and in art, in business it is > entrepreneurship. I believe that there are good things that come from > business entrepreneurship, and there are bad things too. We love that art > and science are innovative, when they are, but there can be failings there > too. > > The captains of industry who believe they are self-made men, and who > believe that anyone who decides for oneself being on the assembly line of > the manufacturing floor is only a dumb pawn in a larger game, would be in > my estimation the worst that kind of human that entrepreneurship generates. > Elon Musk is one example, perhaps. > > As much as I likely would not want Elon Musk over for dinner, I can admire > that he has been able to steward the creation of an electric car in the > midst of a sleepwalking auto industry that cannot envision automobiles > without a gas-eating combustible engine. > > At the same time what he gives he takes away: I'm not sure that I can ever > get on board a space rocket to inhabit Mars. I actually object to that > project because as long as we haven't worked out how to feed everyone on > this earthship, we should not be escaping it by polluting another planet, > even if, as Carl Sagan told us, there are billions and billions of them out > there. > > "They" in the form of (other they)'s do not have power unless we give them > that power. That power is always up for debate every minute, every day, > every year. > > Given that there are now 38 million unemployed in the US (I can't name the > numbers elsewhere and I'm sorry about that), that's like the entire > population of California being on the dole. It is a significant number, and > it may be that many of those people start their own businesses, not because > of education or desire, but of necessity. > > Many of the young and unemployed are educated. That could be a combustible > cocktail, depending upon their self-awareness and outward worldview. > > One strange article in NYT described a scene designer who has been out of > work since the health order shutdown, and hasn't received any unemployment > yet because she filed in New Jersey, while her partner did because he filed > in New York. Then she got an offer to work in a company who is making ... > wait for it.... facemasks, so now she is toiling over a machine, sewing > facemasks. > > I don't think I could live in that situation because of the stark irony, > if that is a just word for that. I mourn the loss of her creativity, but I > hope it is temporary. > > Now out of necessity, she's had to travel that path. So I can agree with > you that because of the government order to shut down business, and because > a company who hired her decided to make facemasks, because what other > ingenious product would or could one manufacture right now? they have > shaped her working life. Have they shaped her social life, though. I mean > completely? She still has her contacts on her iPhone, she likely returns > home to her partner to cook dinner and search for more work. Her desires > and dreams are likely impacted, but has she completely given up? Should she? > > I am not pro-revolution, only because they create rivers of blood in > streets, etc. I'm more of the mind that incremental choices can together > create a tipping point of social change. > > For example, consider the tiny house movement. Or how young people will > share resources, or reevaluate buying things, or what they eat. > > People make the best lemonade only with the best lemons. > > There is going to have to be a reckoning of having so many unemployed > people. It can't be ignored. To just pretend that everyone will be happy > with a lower wage job (lower than when the pandemic hit), is only going to > drive people to desperate measures. The country will want to put people to > work and this could be an opportunity for collective change, for creating > meaningful jobs. > > Because who wants a civil war. > > So there will have to be some sort of appeasement for the social reality > that people must have their basic needs met. The temporary stimulus is a > lifeline, but the real economic difficulties will start when people start > to return to work, and there are less jobs with the result being there is > less money circulating in the economy overall. With interest rates so low, > and pumping more money into the economy is only going to raise the prices > of things, possibly wages, but not the buying power. > > People will cut bait from the lives they once had, and simplify. Moving to > less crowded cities and towns, returning to live with parents. Perhaps > creating cooperatives. One area for discovery with so much time on one's > hands is handcrafting. I think there will be a blooming of new businesses > that incorporate *real* labor. This may also usher in more vocational > training programs. > > One article I read today discussed the eating of meat, and how it is a > destructive social practice including its impact on climate change. Largely > that industry depends upon of automation, and now with slaughterhouses > being virus hotspots, do you want to trust that the meat you buy is not > tainted with COVID? Or that you are forcing a worker into an unsafe work > environment and catch the virus? > > If people were decide to stop eating meat, or reduce even its consumption > because it's too expensive, and if the government stops giving subsidies to > these agro-corporations, then these polluting companies will fail. That > would be great news. > > Then the writer pointed out that if we returned to diets higher in > plant-based food, that would increase demand for real farms, real > entrepreneurship and generate jobs, as it takes more people to grow > vegetables, than it does to raise pigs or chickens. We would also become > healthier as a population. There is already a network of farmer's markets > for local produce, so it may mean a growth in that area. > > I suppose what I'm trying to say is I do not think it is so cut and dried > that we are subject to the worst forever. I think with so much time on our > hands people are free to organize and decide to help one another in mutual > aid. We do not have to rely on traditional power structures, and we do not > have to resort to bloody revolutions. > > Depending upon what you are looking for in life, there is a third way > arising. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > *Sent:* Saturday, May 23, 2020 4:24 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Hello once more Annalisa > > Our difference of approach to and understanding of the modern state and > the production of social life obviously admits of no meeting point as far > as I read your astonishingly wide-ranging and impassioned response. > > Without the simplicity of my reply intending to signal a facile sarcasm, > I must bluntly state that I begin from the acceptance that nefarious or > not, 'They', in the sense of government and corporations, do have the power > to control and shape the organisation of social life. We can, if enough > socio-political pressure can be brought to bear through social movements, > rebellions, revolts, shift certain aspects of that fashioning of our lives. > > But at present, the relationship of wage slavery imposed by Capital ,and > the society shaped by that relationship, are dominant throughout the life > of our planet. > > Sad at such an impasse, since we both wish the best for humanity > > Tom > > > > On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 21:46, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Tom, and VO's of XMCA > > Concerning your questions about our new normal now that COVID19 is with us > and here to stay, I think your guess is as good as anyone's. I am not sure > if we as humans have ever been burdened with such an event as this, and at > the same time are able to watch the unfolding events and respond (or not > respond if you are a stable genius) quickly from the feedback of data, > news, anecdotes, and other forms of perception of how the virus is > impacting us. > > What is worth remembering as well, is that epidemiologists have been > warning us for decades that a pandemic was a clear an present danger to the > way we live and negotiate the modern world. We see in sensurround how right > they were. > > As I consider your question, I have to think that people mow might be > sorted into two classes, well at least two classes: > > > 1. People who seem to think the virus is just another flu and once we > find a vaccine, all will return to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December > Holiday or pre-pandemic time you mark your calendar as before the pandemic > hit, which of course depends upon where on the earth you are located). > 2. People who seem to think the virus has changed us and there will > never be going back to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday...) > > I suspect the Americans of the neo-conservative persuasion who have been > motivated to protest health order social distancing believe that not only > this is a conspiracy to control fredom-loving people, but that we should > return to Christmas 2019 as soon as possible, they are of Cohort 1. > > I think Cohort 2 are going to be people who take in the facts and the data > and are actively attempting to sort out where do we go from here. I feel > confident you are in Cohort 2, as ar most people on this list. > > Now, as Carol M has pointed out, in a lot of ways our discussion about > online learning is a first world concern, for those who have an internet > connection that is ubiquitous not only at home, but at school, work, on the > bus, on planes, in cafes, and other public gathering spaces, like city > halls, or town squares. That's another reason why it's hard to take Klein > seriously, in terms of *tone*. > > I recall reading something from George Lakoff when he indicates that there > is a liberal stance that seems to believe that if one objects loudly enough > with "sky is falling" rhetoric and then feed out various data, that using > this strategy the audience will become motivated to protest in the streets, > write letters to congress, run for office, or whatever civil action must be > done, and with alacrity. It doesn't work. I do not think being against > anything ever "works." I think only being for something works. > > Let's look at Klein's article as an example. If she were to be > rhetorically successful she would outline the problem she identifies (Mr. > Schmidt goes to Washington), but instead of all that is wrong, talk about > what can be right. Not to say she should agree with Mr. Schmidt and his > ways. > > I feel her article could be a lot heavier on what works with education and > how to enhance that further. She does mention how money should b used more > for school nurses, smaller classrooms, etc. This is where she could have > expanded beautifully into a viable solution to spark everyone's > imaginations. But she didn't do that. She is more motivated it seems to > mark Mr. Schmidt and his technological minions to masterminding a New World > Order that will steal our souls and tether us to the Matrix from now until > the end of time. > > I also feel she would have been more conducive to discourse by writing an > open letter to Cuomo and Schmidt, and to invite a response. This is also > leading by example to cultivate democratic processes that are near and dear > to all of us. Instead she "otherfies" them, and this is also not useful. > And I am not saying that as a stance to defend Mr. Schmidt or Gov Cuomo, in > any way. > > So back to your question, I do not think that there is any way we will be > extricated from this reality of COVID 19. We will have to pick our stones > across the river carefully so that none of us slips and is carried down the > rapids. I feel it is more useful to say we are a family of one kind, and > all of us have to stay together to make it across. And that all of us > deserves a life jacket as a measure of survival because not all of us will > get to the other side without getting wet, or falling in. > > The tension between CEOs and their contempt for the slow-food of democracy > is well known. If only they could persuade all of us to eat fast food, then > they could take over the world as the next McDonalds, in terms of > technological vision, whatever a McDonalds would look like on a screen, as > an app, whathaveyou. > > Unfortunately what seems to elude folks who have not worked in tech, or > those who see tech as just another new Ford in the garage, is that > technology is always in flux. There is always development of new hardware > that needs new software written to use it, so there is a double-quicksand > of events upon which technology is founded (and funded) upon. That's what > Moore's Law is about. > > Technology in order to "be itself" must always move fleetingly, like the > shark must to breathe. Technology will never be able to last the halls of > government. For that reason, any rendition of technology in government (and > school systems for that matter) will be like bad combovers that are meant > to convince us that we are now more attractive and appealing (not meaning > to offend those who live by their combovers...) > > Where I feel technology could best serve us is to help create grassroots > democracy tools, to support what we know is possible and could even > threaten the basis for representative democracy and bring it closer to a > straight agora democracy. > > Some might call this anarchy, and I could argue along the lines of David > Graeber that anarchy is a more pure form of democracy practiced in all > "primitive" or "ancient" cultures, it's not a perfect fit, and I intend to > make that reference loosely. My point is to say there should be what David > K calls involution of what government is, to what government was, and to > supplant that, or rather what causes those parts to be pushed to the > margins is to imagine a government where there is mor connection to > agora-like venues where one person speaking in a Zoom-like frame is of > equal stature of any other person speaking in the frame. One can sort of > imagine this with the Zoom-empowered senate hearings which I watched for a > while on the NYT front page. It was really strange to me. I suppose the > danger is that we get to hear Sally Mc? from Arizona use her time to blame > the Chinese for the virus, etc, for more time that we would like. But > that's democracy. > > So one fallout could be that grade-school kids and their resulting > perezhivanie from Zoom-based classrooms, will adopt the tool for political > discussions as adults. Might that be a good thing? > > Maybe. > > At the same time, do you remember a book that came out in the mid90s > called "Silicon Snake Oil"? This is yet another phenomenon of technology, > that people oozing charisma will claw their way to the microphone and pitch > an idea about the next vaporware, who will then make unsubstantiated > promises and claims directed to feed our fantasies and dreams, and who will > then abscond with all the money, only to request not to look at the man > behind the green curtain, or if pulled by the ear into a senate hearing > will say "I thought it was a good idea at the time." etc. > > I think that is the view of Klein about all technology, and there are > merits in that, but there are also other ways to think about it. > > This article about Marc Benioff in Wired recently discusses about the > social entrepreneurship of his wealth: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.wired.com/story/gospel-of-wealth-according-to-marc-benioff/__;!!Mih3wA!QL0O2a1BTuLzgI7DO7SunHxhtP3wSNSGMWFaXbjvCGq4VoUq1A5z2S8Rv13sXPwBR2dBzw$ > > Who by they way now owns the magazine Time, the way Jeff Bezos bought the > WaPo, and Lauren Jobs bought The Altlantic, and Pierre Omidyar funded The > Intercept. > > I do invite, as much as you can stomach, anyway, for any educators or > other members of our vibrant list to make regular reading of Wired > Magazine, which is a far more interesting read on technology than something > like Fast Company. I encourage this reading, if only to know the enemy, as > it were. Wired articles are far more nuanced and sophisticated than when > the magazine first got off the ground in the early 90s. I find reading it > helps to connect some dots for those who do not consume technology culture > all the time. Just pick and choose what you are curious about. > > We must become familiar with the vernacular of technology if we want a > hand in the game of how it plays in education, our stomping grounds. This > will require effort on our part. That is not to say we must adopt all the > shiny new toys. But we can be like a Consumer Report for education, and > evaluate and measure the good the bad and the ugly of technology and its > use in the edu sphere. > > We cannot sit on our laurels and wait for someone else to decide for us > how technology will be deployed. That stance is what the mythology of > inevitable technology rests and self-perpetuates. > > We must be more tech literate, and we must be the first to coin words and > how they manifest in edu venues. What works what doesn't. I don't see any > other way to fight back and to keep control of the educational narrative, > where of course we want to hardwire zopeds, manifest and lead critical and > nourishing perezhivanie, and model by example sterling mediated learning > experiences for students and teachers. > > What other projects can there be? > > For me, this is "fighting back" because it makes the sort of shark-like > entrepreneur recede for a time (as they will always be looking for a way > into edu's tax coffers), because we are successful getting education right. > > I do not accept that entreprenuership is what took the sanctity from > teaching and learning. But that's an argument to be made. I feel it is only > one side of the argument. > > Once I had an male acquaintance tell me that one reason women are in > inferior roles is because they let this happen to them. As you might > imagine, I had a real hard time with that argument and I had to clench my > jaw to now spew various vitriol upon him. But after I thought about it, in > a narrow sense he is not wrong because not it is true that enough women in > history identified the value to struggle for rights even if they would not > see equality in their own lifetimes. There are many explanations for why > that did not happen, that are not facile to depict. But then I also had to > think of how much women's struggles have succeeded because they did decide > to not let this happen to them anymore. But now women are learning in the > US, anyway, that nothing fought for is a permanent fixture, and so we must > become resigned to the perpetual struggle for equality, as all marginalized > people must. > > So now I direct this to our context of education in the venue of online > learning. This is not an easy question, and it is not intended to > trivialize the work and efforts of many on this list, but it is instead a > question of inner reflection, or a taking of inventory of one's own life: > > How much has each of you done to take measure and fight for meaningful > education in the classroom? > > Could you have done more? Can you do more? > > Then the same for asking yourself how have you integrated technology > appropriately into your learning methods and general perezhivanie. > > I hope this might provide some further food for thought concerning > preservation on the sanctity of learning and instruction in the classroom. > > So all this is to reply to you Tom, that in short, the nefarious They can > only take control if we let them. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ps please excuse all typos, which are all made on my own. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 11:26 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Hi Annalisa > > Thank you for providing the details of your deep and committed background > in distance / online learning. Mine is obviously shallow, which must have > triggered you and 'Robsub' somewhat. > > But my questioning is in the newer context of the Covid19 threats to > global society and the solutions being sought to extricate us from them. > > Governor Cuomo's conversation with Schmidt to examine solutions to the > problems of present coping and future emergence from the pandemic is > understandable. Two persons with power and a need to act, discuss what > technology (in its widest hard- and software aspects) has to offer. > > In a democracy we can assess the solutions they propose and shape them to > what we know to be as near to optimal for our society as possible. Your > assertion of the efficacy of our agency which Klein seems to deny, > with her politico-economic caveats. > > Schmidt has an evangelism for the potential of technology, but expressed > with such restraint - he's no zealot. He also, in the video of the ECNY > conversation with Marie-Josee Kravis, sees the lack of 'simplicity' in the > three-tier democratic system of the US. He is a CEO with an organisation > geared to problem-analysis, solution choices, and operational capability > which can be put into action without delaying debate. He expressed no > hostility to 'democracy' but as he said, it does not work simply. > > Klein reminds us to be wary if not alarmed, not because she is despairing > (I believe), but because that direct entrepreneurial drive has profit > making as its unavoidable aim. Whatever Schmidt's humanistic feelings, if > profit doesn't result from his and his companies actions, they will not > survive. That competitive drive is also present in his aspirations for > international dominance (see his remarks on the rise of China's technology). > > So far, the sort of distance / online learning you have worked on, has > been nested in the context of family and (normal) school life. That > normality had implicit in it human values, customs and structures, whatever > differences of class, race, gender and culture were present. The melding of > state and enterprise in a newly-developing novel (5G?)high-tech 'solution' > to mediating education presents a situation which need to be examined I > believe. And my query, in that 'Kleinian' context was looking for answers > from those, like yourself, with wide experience of previous technological > 'answers' and their implications for the results within the learner. > > I affirm, along with you, the irrepressible resistance and sheer > cantankerousness we humans bring to unjust situations. But such fighting > back will often be unsuccessful in its aims, when the need to reduce labour > time with new technology is driving events - Luddism and machine looms? Our > human drive to change and adapt, our use of our agency to create or alter > our lives must not be suppressed. But what Klein is reminding us of is just > how tilted is the balance of power - the power of the state and behind it, > the drive from the vast corporate world, for profit. Our agency is so often > undone by the arbitrary intervention of those forces. > > Those are the forces which have destroyed what you name the 'sanctity' of > teaching and learning. I would name it the basic need for those goals, but > we share it. With the need to re-invigorate just such a precious resource, > we will continue to fight like hell. Despite their mere humanness, > corporations and states at present have greater knowledge and power than > 'mere' citizens. My intervention in xmca discussion was really to say > "They're looking to take even more control of daily life. > Within academia, you can analyse how they are making such changes happen > and continue to alert the rest of us, if you fear the consequences of > their changes." > > Best wishes > Tom > > On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 22:29, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? > > Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We > looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, > once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always > a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed > by SL's prospects. > > In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, > I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that > students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one > another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological > fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would > ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. > > Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like > looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. > Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. > > What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, > which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open > space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was > perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. > > I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators > already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online > learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers > during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of > associations of place with learning. > > In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the > AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, > drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in > order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye > coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing > abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and > constrain learning to books. > > We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We > must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. > > I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the > situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of > learning. > > I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out > of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for > quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged > learning venues . Not with grade school. > > I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for > grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally > studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, > although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon > it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess > that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because > parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. > > I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, > nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. > > What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is > childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own > families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!QL0O2a1BTuLzgI7DO7SunHxhtP3wSNSGMWFaXbjvCGq4VoUq1A5z2S8Rv13sXPzopHLdRg$ > > > It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, > not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may > also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we > must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. > > It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom > to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the > classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. > > Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the > AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he > could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that > education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People > then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We > see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the > case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of > learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. > > If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to > already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support > well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be > integrated with existing models. > > If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way > to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money > will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. > > One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online > learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may > also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or > riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and > surveillance is a constructive combination. > > There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more > appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet > words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must > better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite > behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown > interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from > what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. > > This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a > mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and > introspection, I will never accept that reality. > > To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say > "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers > and pins." > > I just do not believe this narrative. > > We cannot give up. > > Is there a fight ahead? Yes. > > Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most > definitely, yes. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Hello Annalisa > Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost > none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of > human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour > acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. > > - What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment > created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the > widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such > learning takes place?'. > - What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes > for the *perezhivanie *of the learner, which shapes her social being > and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', > 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? > > Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet > listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what > is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. > I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is > within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. > > Kind regards > Tom > > > On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hello Tom, > > Thank you for posting the link. > > I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly > dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is > not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking > pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended > into our lives. > > I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It > reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and > resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has > become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. > > At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power > in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. > > Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill > Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as > the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment > facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include > Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding > flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his > billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). > > I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage > agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace > illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the > drug wars. These efforts are working. > > Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem > I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. > > She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID > (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control > the world. > > Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of > the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. > Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is > the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to > deliberate the way forward. > > As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to > control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, > or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in > ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be > construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency > to decide how to use our tools. > > Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt > will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled > children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional > online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. > > So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply > does not hold water for me. > > I hope this might be a little encouraging. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Hello Tom Richardson > This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat > Project" that has just finished its > planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human > development, and theories of "Development > in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by > the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. > Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to > actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. > The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of > essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. > In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most > dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced > a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most > members of this discussion over the years, > is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations > have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting > a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). > > We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social > science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp > speed and its invisible. > > Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about > for 100 years. > Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing > working models of effective practices that do NOT > assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. > > Thanks for asking. > mike > > > > On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > > Greetings Xmca-ers > I would like to raise a question. > In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major > questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, > democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international > competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan > approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to > these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been > happening recently: > > > "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks > after that article appeared, he described > the > ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the > country had been forced to cobble together during this public health > emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. > > The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids > learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote > and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will > help kids learn better.? " > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!QL0O2a1BTuLzgI7DO7SunHxhtP3wSNSGMWFaXbjvCGq4VoUq1A5z2S8Rv13sXPwkRyjaYA$ > > > > Just asking > Tom Richardson > Middlesbrough UK > > > > -- > > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, > translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. > For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net > > . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200525/90578471/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon May 25 14:23:39 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 15:23:39 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Tom, What is it about ?free market economies? is the cause of wage slavery? Is there at least some jiggering of the market that could end ?destructive anarchy?? Do we do away with money? And I am serious here. I take it that capitalism is the problem, not the market, or money. I was in the doctoral program in economics at UC Berkeley during the late 60s. My concentrations were comparative economic systems and economic planning. I dropped out after only getting a masters degree in economics there, and went to Cuba to cut sugar cane with the Venceremos Brigade. I felt strongly Che?s call to make the New Man (though women were there too, and check out the film ?Lucia?) of that era, but I think that central planning (Castro?) of the Cuban economy had a destructive and anarchic side. Castro apologized for his mistakes during the year of 10 million tons of sugar cane production, but the damage was done. Cuba has been a shining light in some ways for me and others, not least the health care workers, the original Doctors Without Borders, that beautifully exemplify the new human. So, really, what do we replace markets and money with? Or is it the ?free? part that?s the rub. Henry > On May 25, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Tom Richardson wrote: > > Hello Annalisa > > "All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is:" > > Since I have suggested neither of the alternatives you state as the only way forward, it would surely invalidate your further argument. > > But I must admit that the idea of thirty thousand working class families and then some, organising to change the wage-slavery employment system that they are exploited by, would be a great idea. > Here's to that day, as the freely associated producers of our social life organise to end the destructive anarchy of our present free-market economies. > > Regards > > Tom > > > > On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 19:58, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > Hi Tom and others, > > > > I agree that Capitalism is bad, and that it causes wealth and poverty in extremes. Which then creates social injustices that would be much lessened with less economic inequality. > > > > I do not think that I ever said (did I?) to ignore the traditional power structures. I said that every day we negotiate the power structures. And when we decide it's not working we can create change. That possibility is always an option, but it demands diligence, discipline, and discovery. > > > > All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is: > > 1. it's futile. Give up. The structures will always be against us. Settle in to your given hand of bad fortune. > > 2. grab a gun and kill as many people sitting in seats of power (which means the chair of power remains to be replaced by someone else). > > > > Forgive me if I reject both those options. > > > > As I said, perhaps in another post, the liberal position of citing data and objecting to the existence of that data, isn't going to make power structures change. > > > > What would make change is for those 15K-30K families to organize and among themselves decide how and what they can do to make their lot better. > > > > It's called organizing. > > > > Civil disobedience works because it is civil. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > > Sent: Monday, May 25, 2020 3:25 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > [EXTERNAL] > > Hi Annalisa > Good Morning - just a correction to figures about poverty in our town - I should have been more careful,; fortunately the figures from memory were an underestimate rather than an exaggeration: > Almost 30,000 children are living in poverty across Teesside - and half are from working families. > > And stark new statistics reveal that the picture is worst in central Middlesbrough - as hyper-local, official Government data reveals three quarters of all kids in one neighbourhood are living below the breadline. > > Regards > > Tom > > > BoWen > > > On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 22:17, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > Alas, hello again Tom (& VO's), > > While I accept your assessment of our differences in approaches and understandings, I do not see that it is obvious that there is no meeting point. > > For example, innovation exists in science and in art, in business it is entrepreneurship. I believe that there are good things that come from business entrepreneurship, and there are bad things too. We love that art and science are innovative, when they are, but there can be failings there too. > > The captains of industry who believe they are self-made men, and who believe that anyone who decides for oneself being on the assembly line of the manufacturing floor is only a dumb pawn in a larger game, would be in my estimation the worst that kind of human that entrepreneurship generates. Elon Musk is one example, perhaps. > > As much as I likely would not want Elon Musk over for dinner, I can admire that he has been able to steward the creation of an electric car in the midst of a sleepwalking auto industry that cannot envision automobiles without a gas-eating combustible engine. > > At the same time what he gives he takes away: I'm not sure that I can ever get on board a space rocket to inhabit Mars. I actually object to that project because as long as we haven't worked out how to feed everyone on this earthship, we should not be escaping it by polluting another planet, even if, as Carl Sagan told us, there are billions and billions of them out there. > > "They" in the form of (other they)'s do not have power unless we give them that power. That power is always up for debate every minute, every day, every year. > > Given that there are now 38 million unemployed in the US (I can't name the numbers elsewhere and I'm sorry about that), that's like the entire population of California being on the dole. It is a significant number, and it may be that many of those people start their own businesses, not because of education or desire, but of necessity. > > Many of the young and unemployed are educated. That could be a combustible cocktail, depending upon their self-awareness and outward worldview. > > One strange article in NYT described a scene designer who has been out of work since the health order shutdown, and hasn't received any unemployment yet because she filed in New Jersey, while her partner did because he filed in New York. Then she got an offer to work in a company who is making ... wait for it.... facemasks, so now she is toiling over a machine, sewing facemasks. > > I don't think I could live in that situation because of the stark irony, if that is a just word for that. I mourn the loss of her creativity, but I hope it is temporary. > > Now out of necessity, she's had to travel that path. So I can agree with you that because of the government order to shut down business, and because a company who hired her decided to make facemasks, because what other ingenious product would or could one manufacture right now? they have shaped her working life. Have they shaped her social life, though. I mean completely? She still has her contacts on her iPhone, she likely returns home to her partner to cook dinner and search for more work. Her desires and dreams are likely impacted, but has she completely given up? Should she? > > I am not pro-revolution, only because they create rivers of blood in streets, etc. I'm more of the mind that incremental choices can together create a tipping point of social change. > > For example, consider the tiny house movement. Or how young people will share resources, or reevaluate buying things, or what they eat. > > People make the best lemonade only with the best lemons. > > There is going to have to be a reckoning of having so many unemployed people. It can't be ignored. To just pretend that everyone will be happy with a lower wage job (lower than when the pandemic hit), is only going to drive people to desperate measures. The country will want to put people to work and this could be an opportunity for collective change, for creating meaningful jobs. > > Because who wants a civil war. > > So there will have to be some sort of appeasement for the social reality that people must have their basic needs met. The temporary stimulus is a lifeline, but the real economic difficulties will start when people start to return to work, and there are less jobs with the result being there is less money circulating in the economy overall. With interest rates so low, and pumping more money into the economy is only going to raise the prices of things, possibly wages, but not the buying power. > > People will cut bait from the lives they once had, and simplify. Moving to less crowded cities and towns, returning to live with parents. Perhaps creating cooperatives. One area for discovery with so much time on one's hands is handcrafting. I think there will be a blooming of new businesses that incorporate *real* labor. This may also usher in more vocational training programs. > > One article I read today discussed the eating of meat, and how it is a destructive social practice including its impact on climate change. Largely that industry depends upon of automation, and now with slaughterhouses being virus hotspots, do you want to trust that the meat you buy is not tainted with COVID? Or that you are forcing a worker into an unsafe work environment and catch the virus? > > If people were decide to stop eating meat, or reduce even its consumption because it's too expensive, and if the government stops giving subsidies to these agro-corporations, then these polluting companies will fail. That would be great news. > > Then the writer pointed out that if we returned to diets higher in plant-based food, that would increase demand for real farms, real entrepreneurship and generate jobs, as it takes more people to grow vegetables, than it does to raise pigs or chickens. We would also become healthier as a population. There is already a network of farmer's markets for local produce, so it may mean a growth in that area. > > I suppose what I'm trying to say is I do not think it is so cut and dried that we are subject to the worst forever. I think with so much time on our hands people are free to organize and decide to help one another in mutual aid. We do not have to rely on traditional power structures, and we do not have to resort to bloody revolutions. > > Depending upon what you are looking for in life, there is a third way arising. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > > Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 4:24 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > [EXTERNAL] > > Hello once more Annalisa > > Our difference of approach to and understanding of the modern state and the production of social life obviously admits of no meeting point as far as I read your astonishingly wide-ranging and impassioned response. > > Without the simplicity of my reply intending to signal a facile sarcasm, I must bluntly state that I begin from the acceptance that nefarious or not, 'They', in the sense of government and corporations, do have the power to control and shape the organisation of social life. We can, if enough socio-political pressure can be brought to bear through social movements, rebellions, revolts, shift certain aspects of that fashioning of our lives. > > But at present, the relationship of wage slavery imposed by Capital ,and the society shaped by that relationship, are dominant throughout the life of our planet. > > Sad at such an impasse, since we both wish the best for humanity > > Tom > > > > On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 21:46, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > Hi Tom, and VO's of XMCA > > Concerning your questions about our new normal now that COVID19 is with us and here to stay, I think your guess is as good as anyone's. I am not sure if we as humans have ever been burdened with such an event as this, and at the same time are able to watch the unfolding events and respond (or not respond if you are a stable genius) quickly from the feedback of data, news, anecdotes, and other forms of perception of how the virus is impacting us. > > What is worth remembering as well, is that epidemiologists have been warning us for decades that a pandemic was a clear an present danger to the way we live and negotiate the modern world. We see in sensurround how right they were. > > As I consider your question, I have to think that people mow might be sorted into two classes, well at least two classes: > > People who seem to think the virus is just another flu and once we find a vaccine, all will return to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday or pre-pandemic time you mark your calendar as before the pandemic hit, which of course depends upon where on the earth you are located). > People who seem to think the virus has changed us and there will never be going back to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday...) > I suspect the Americans of the neo-conservative persuasion who have been motivated to protest health order social distancing believe that not only this is a conspiracy to control fredom-loving people, but that we should return to Christmas 2019 as soon as possible, they are of Cohort 1. > > I think Cohort 2 are going to be people who take in the facts and the data and are actively attempting to sort out where do we go from here. I feel confident you are in Cohort 2, as ar most people on this list. > > Now, as Carol M has pointed out, in a lot of ways our discussion about online learning is a first world concern, for those who have an internet connection that is ubiquitous not only at home, but at school, work, on the bus, on planes, in cafes, and other public gathering spaces, like city halls, or town squares. That's another reason why it's hard to take Klein seriously, in terms of *tone*. > > I recall reading something from George Lakoff when he indicates that there is a liberal stance that seems to believe that if one objects loudly enough with "sky is falling" rhetoric and then feed out various data, that using this strategy the audience will become motivated to protest in the streets, write letters to congress, run for office, or whatever civil action must be done, and with alacrity. It doesn't work. I do not think being against anything ever "works." I think only being for something works. > > Let's look at Klein's article as an example. If she were to be rhetorically successful she would outline the problem she identifies (Mr. Schmidt goes to Washington), but instead of all that is wrong, talk about what can be right. Not to say she should agree with Mr. Schmidt and his ways. > > I feel her article could be a lot heavier on what works with education and how to enhance that further. She does mention how money should b used more for school nurses, smaller classrooms, etc. This is where she could have expanded beautifully into a viable solution to spark everyone's imaginations. But she didn't do that. She is more motivated it seems to mark Mr. Schmidt and his technological minions to masterminding a New World Order that will steal our souls and tether us to the Matrix from now until the end of time. > > I also feel she would have been more conducive to discourse by writing an open letter to Cuomo and Schmidt, and to invite a response. This is also leading by example to cultivate democratic processes that are near and dear to all of us. Instead she "otherfies" them, and this is also not useful. And I am not saying that as a stance to defend Mr. Schmidt or Gov Cuomo, in any way. > > So back to your question, I do not think that there is any way we will be extricated from this reality of COVID 19. We will have to pick our stones across the river carefully so that none of us slips and is carried down the rapids. I feel it is more useful to say we are a family of one kind, and all of us have to stay together to make it across. And that all of us deserves a life jacket as a measure of survival because not all of us will get to the other side without getting wet, or falling in. > > The tension between CEOs and their contempt for the slow-food of democracy is well known. If only they could persuade all of us to eat fast food, then they could take over the world as the next McDonalds, in terms of technological vision, whatever a McDonalds would look like on a screen, as an app, whathaveyou. > > Unfortunately what seems to elude folks who have not worked in tech, or those who see tech as just another new Ford in the garage, is that technology is always in flux. There is always development of new hardware that needs new software written to use it, so there is a double-quicksand of events upon which technology is founded (and funded) upon. That's what Moore's Law is about. > > Technology in order to "be itself" must always move fleetingly, like the shark must to breathe. Technology will never be able to last the halls of government. For that reason, any rendition of technology in government (and school systems for that matter) will be like bad combovers that are meant to convince us that we are now more attractive and appealing (not meaning to offend those who live by their combovers...) > > Where I feel technology could best serve us is to help create grassroots democracy tools, to support what we know is possible and could even threaten the basis for representative democracy and bring it closer to a straight agora democracy. > > Some might call this anarchy, and I could argue along the lines of David Graeber that anarchy is a more pure form of democracy practiced in all "primitive" or "ancient" cultures, it's not a perfect fit, and I intend to make that reference loosely. My point is to say there should be what David K calls involution of what government is, to what government was, and to supplant that, or rather what causes those parts to be pushed to the margins is to imagine a government where there is mor connection to agora-like venues where one person speaking in a Zoom-like frame is of equal stature of any other person speaking in the frame. One can sort of imagine this with the Zoom-empowered senate hearings which I watched for a while on the NYT front page. It was really strange to me. I suppose the danger is that we get to hear Sally Mc? from Arizona use her time to blame the Chinese for the virus, etc, for more time that we would like. But that's democracy. > > So one fallout could be that grade-school kids and their resulting perezhivanie from Zoom-based classrooms, will adopt the tool for political discussions as adults. Might that be a good thing? > > Maybe. > > At the same time, do you remember a book that came out in the mid90s called "Silicon Snake Oil"? This is yet another phenomenon of technology, that people oozing charisma will claw their way to the microphone and pitch an idea about the next vaporware, who will then make unsubstantiated promises and claims directed to feed our fantasies and dreams, and who will then abscond with all the money, only to request not to look at the man behind the green curtain, or if pulled by the ear into a senate hearing will say "I thought it was a good idea at the time." etc. > > I think that is the view of Klein about all technology, and there are merits in that, but there are also other ways to think about it. > > This article about Marc Benioff in Wired recently discusses about the social entrepreneurship of his wealth: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.wired.com/story/gospel-of-wealth-according-to-marc-benioff/__;!!Mih3wA!Q5Au691uTFzKgA21X1Ky_GBIWHXav9kkrlXK8VZgSmVn27FrDyWtgaxxXYGuHDQA0gtQ1Q$ > Who by they way now owns the magazine Time, the way Jeff Bezos bought the WaPo, and Lauren Jobs bought The Altlantic, and Pierre Omidyar funded The Intercept. > > I do invite, as much as you can stomach, anyway, for any educators or other members of our vibrant list to make regular reading of Wired Magazine, which is a far more interesting read on technology than something like Fast Company. I encourage this reading, if only to know the enemy, as it were. Wired articles are far more nuanced and sophisticated than when the magazine first got off the ground in the early 90s. I find reading it helps to connect some dots for those who do not consume technology culture all the time. Just pick and choose what you are curious about. > > We must become familiar with the vernacular of technology if we want a hand in the game of how it plays in education, our stomping grounds. This will require effort on our part. That is not to say we must adopt all the shiny new toys. But we can be like a Consumer Report for education, and evaluate and measure the good the bad and the ugly of technology and its use in the edu sphere. > > We cannot sit on our laurels and wait for someone else to decide for us how technology will be deployed. That stance is what the mythology of inevitable technology rests and self-perpetuates. > > We must be more tech literate, and we must be the first to coin words and how they manifest in edu venues. What works what doesn't. I don't see any other way to fight back and to keep control of the educational narrative, where of course we want to hardwire zopeds, manifest and lead critical and nourishing perezhivanie, and model by example sterling mediated learning experiences for students and teachers. > > What other projects can there be? > > For me, this is "fighting back" because it makes the sort of shark-like entrepreneur recede for a time (as they will always be looking for a way into edu's tax coffers), because we are successful getting education right. > > I do not accept that entreprenuership is what took the sanctity from teaching and learning. But that's an argument to be made. I feel it is only one side of the argument. > > Once I had an male acquaintance tell me that one reason women are in inferior roles is because they let this happen to them. As you might imagine, I had a real hard time with that argument and I had to clench my jaw to now spew various vitriol upon him. But after I thought about it, in a narrow sense he is not wrong because not it is true that enough women in history identified the value to struggle for rights even if they would not see equality in their own lifetimes. There are many explanations for why that did not happen, that are not facile to depict. But then I also had to think of how much women's struggles have succeeded because they did decide to not let this happen to them anymore. But now women are learning in the US, anyway, that nothing fought for is a permanent fixture, and so we must become resigned to the perpetual struggle for equality, as all marginalized people must. > > So now I direct this to our context of education in the venue of online learning. This is not an easy question, and it is not intended to trivialize the work and efforts of many on this list, but it is instead a question of inner reflection, or a taking of inventory of one's own life: > > How much has each of you done to take measure and fight for meaningful education in the classroom? > > Could you have done more? Can you do more? > > Then the same for asking yourself how have you integrated technology appropriately into your learning methods and general perezhivanie. > > I hope this might provide some further food for thought concerning preservation on the sanctity of learning and instruction in the classroom. > > So all this is to reply to you Tom, that in short, the nefarious They can only take control if we let them. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ps please excuse all typos, which are all made on my own. > > > > > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > > Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 11:26 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > [EXTERNAL] > > Hi Annalisa > > Thank you for providing the details of your deep and committed background in distance / online learning. Mine is obviously shallow, which must have triggered you and 'Robsub' somewhat. > > But my questioning is in the newer context of the Covid19 threats to global society and the solutions being sought to extricate us from them. > > Governor Cuomo's conversation with Schmidt to examine solutions to the problems of present coping and future emergence from the pandemic is understandable. Two persons with power and a need to act, discuss what technology (in its widest hard- and software aspects) has to offer. > > In a democracy we can assess the solutions they propose and shape them to what we know to be as near to optimal for our society as possible. Your assertion of the efficacy of our agency which Klein seems to deny, > with her politico-economic caveats. > > Schmidt has an evangelism for the potential of technology, but expressed with such restraint - he's no zealot. He also, in the video of the ECNY conversation with Marie-Josee Kravis, sees the lack of 'simplicity' in the three-tier democratic system of the US. He is a CEO with an organisation geared to problem-analysis, solution choices, and operational capability which can be put into action without delaying debate. He expressed no hostility to 'democracy' but as he said, it does not work simply. > > Klein reminds us to be wary if not alarmed, not because she is despairing (I believe), but because that direct entrepreneurial drive has profit making as its unavoidable aim. Whatever Schmidt's humanistic feelings, if profit doesn't result from his and his companies actions, they will not survive. That competitive drive is also present in his aspirations for international dominance (see his remarks on the rise of China's technology). > > So far, the sort of distance / online learning you have worked on, has been nested in the context of family and (normal) school life. That normality had implicit in it human values, customs and structures, whatever differences of class, race, gender and culture were present. The melding of state and enterprise in a newly-developing novel (5G?)high-tech 'solution' to mediating education presents a situation which need to be examined I believe. And my query, in that 'Kleinian' context was looking for answers from those, like yourself, with wide experience of previous technological 'answers' and their implications for the results within the learner. > > I affirm, along with you, the irrepressible resistance and sheer cantankerousness we humans bring to unjust situations. But such fighting back will often be unsuccessful in its aims, when the need to reduce labour time with new technology is driving events - Luddism and machine looms? Our human drive to change and adapt, our use of our agency to create or alter our lives must not be suppressed. But what Klein is reminding us of is just how tilted is the balance of power - the power of the state and behind it, the drive from the vast corporate world, for profit. Our agency is so often undone by the arbitrary intervention of those forces. > > Those are the forces which have destroyed what you name the 'sanctity' of teaching and learning. I would name it the basic need for those goals, but we share it. With the need to re-invigorate just such a precious resource, we will continue to fight like hell. Despite their mere humanness, corporations and states at present have greater knowledge and power than 'mere' citizens. My intervention in xmca discussion was really to say "They're looking to take even more control of daily life. > Within academia, you can analyse how they are making such changes happen and continue to alert the rest of us, if you fear the consequences of their changes." > > Best wishes > Tom > > On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 22:29, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > Hi Tom, > > May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? > > Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed by SL's prospects. > > In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. > > Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. > > What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. > > I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of associations of place with learning. > > In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and constrain learning to books. > > We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. > > I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of learning. > > I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged learning venues . Not with grade school. > > I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. > > I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. > > What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!Q5Au691uTFzKgA21X1Ky_GBIWHXav9kkrlXK8VZgSmVn27FrDyWtgaxxXYGuHDTGrxLVvg$ > > It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. > > It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. > > Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. > > If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be integrated with existing models. > > If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. > > One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and surveillance is a constructive combination. > > There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. > > This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and introspection, I will never accept that reality. > > To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers and pins." > > I just do not believe this narrative. > > We cannot give up. > > Is there a fight ahead? Yes. > > Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most definitely, yes. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > > Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > [EXTERNAL] > > > Hello Annalisa > Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. > What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such learning takes place?'. > What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes for the perezhivanie of the learner, which shapes her social being and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? > Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. > I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. > > Kind regards > Tom > > > On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > Hello Tom, > > Thank you for posting the link. > > I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended into our lives. > > I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. > > At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. > > Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). > > I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. > > Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. > > She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control the world. > > Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to deliberate the way forward. > > As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency to decide how to use our tools. > > Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. > > So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply does not hold water for me. > > I hope this might be a little encouraging. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > [EXTERNAL] > > Hello Tom Richardson > This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat Project" that has just finished its > planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human development, and theories of "Development > in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. > Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. > The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. > In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced > a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most members of this discussion over the years, > is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). > > We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. > > Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about for 100 years. > Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing working models of effective practices that do NOT > assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. > > Thanks for asking. > mike > > > > On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson > wrote: > Greetings Xmca-ers > I would like to raise a question. > In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening recently: > > > "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks after that article appeared, he described the ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the country had been forced to cobble together during this public health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. > > The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!Q5Au691uTFzKgA21X1Ky_GBIWHXav9kkrlXK8VZgSmVn27FrDyWtgaxxXYGuHDTUXF2qLw$ > > Just asking > Tom Richardson > Middlesbrough UK > > > > -- > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > > > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu . > For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . > For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net . > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200525/1686533c/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon May 25 19:08:23 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 11:08:23 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" Message-ID: Michael, Anthony, Elizabeth--and (of course) Annalisa: I apologize for changing the threadline title AGAIN. I feel like the five-year-old who is always unscrewing the back of the TV set to see the little people inside; I was very dissatisfied withe the abstract theory on the other line, according to which everything is everything and mediation and unmediation are equally both and I wanted a way of finding the people inside it. I thought the term "meatspace", which Annalisa has heard before, captured that feeling pretty well (and there are also some echoes of a corruscating book review I once read in MCA titled something like "Yer askin' me to believe in sentient MEAT????") Let's use Michael's categories of "teacher presence" and "social presence" instead, so long as we keep in mind the point that Michael made at the end, that is, the teacher is always present even when the teacher is not present (as when the child is doing homework alone) and the additional point that teacher presence is one kind of social presence. But because presence and absence are (like mediated and unmediated) equally both ungradeable categories, I would prefer to talk about teacher distancing and social distancing. Michael Osterholm has objected to the term social distancing for the same reasons I raised earlier--it's a physical, mechanical distancing that actually creates a higher form of solidarity (and that is why the elements of society which oppose higher forms of solidarity oppose it). So I put "social distancing" in scare quotes. But the teacher distancing is real enough. Real but not by itself of developmental significance. What worries me is the possibility that we are adding to the kinds of inequalitiees that Annalisa, Henry and Tom are talking about on the other thread. It seems to me that teacher distancing differentially hurts some populations. I disagree that Koreans are more homogeneous than other cultures (in class terms significantly less so) and I also think that if you were to sit through a lecture in the Korean language without understanding Korean you would not agree that language is the least important aspect of teacher presence. But (to bring these two together) I think that students who are able to focus on language, and on particular kinds of language, are disproportionately enabled in conditions of teacher distancing. This is the issue that dare not speak its name, for when Bernstein tried to raise it he was, as Halliday noted, "driven out of the field". One of the reasons I wrote the article linked below is that Ruqaiya Hasan was not. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zce9P2I5M_FZBJKElhGyP20UejX0w$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zce9P2I5M_FZBJKElhGyP026P9-1A$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200526/a2209355/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Mon May 25 22:38:00 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 05:38:00 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello David, I'm not sure what the reference to looking inside the TV refers to, but it must mean something to someone, just not me. I'm not sure about this, but "meatspace" (which I think does deserve scare quotes) is something that one might see on 4chan or reddit. 'Tis a very cynical term. Which is why I prefer IRL. I'm not seeing the reason for your wording in this context, dealing with the apparent (or unapparent) perezhivanie of ZOOM. There is no doubt that disruptions are ensuing from the measures taken to "flatten the curve." There are millions without jobs here (and many other places). Lots of people are having their lives made unequal by this pandemic. Not just the kids who have to go to school on ZOOM. But let me ask. Would it be better to have no school at all or school on ZOOM? It's easy to "zoom in" and look at details and have a good scare, with quotes or otherwise. That kind of fear is not useful. Try to focus on what you are FOR, not what you are against. Then you will win. Keep your eye on the prize. Fight harder, and never never never give up. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Monday, May 25, 2020 8:08 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" [EXTERNAL] Michael, Anthony, Elizabeth--and (of course) Annalisa: I apologize for changing the threadline title AGAIN. I feel like the five-year-old who is always unscrewing the back of the TV set to see the little people inside; I was very dissatisfied withe the abstract theory on the other line, according to which everything is everything and mediation and unmediation are equally both and I wanted a way of finding the people inside it. I thought the term "meatspace", which Annalisa has heard before, captured that feeling pretty well (and there are also some echoes of a corruscating book review I once read in MCA titled something like "Yer askin' me to believe in sentient MEAT????") Let's use Michael's categories of "teacher presence" and "social presence" instead, so long as we keep in mind the point that Michael made at the end, that is, the teacher is always present even when the teacher is not present (as when the child is doing homework alone) and the additional point that teacher presence is one kind of social presence. But because presence and absence are (like mediated and unmediated) equally both ungradeable categories, I would prefer to talk about teacher distancing and social distancing. Michael Osterholm has objected to the term social distancing for the same reasons I raised earlier--it's a physical, mechanical distancing that actually creates a higher form of solidarity (and that is why the elements of society which oppose higher forms of solidarity oppose it). So I put "social distancing" in scare quotes. But the teacher distancing is real enough. Real but not by itself of developmental significance. What worries me is the possibility that we are adding to the kinds of inequalitiees that Annalisa, Henry and Tom are talking about on the other thread. It seems to me that teacher distancing differentially hurts some populations. I disagree that Koreans are more homogeneous than other cultures (in class terms significantly less so) and I also think that if you were to sit through a lecture in the Korean language without understanding Korean you would not agree that language is the least important aspect of teacher presence. But (to bring these two together) I think that students who are able to focus on language, and on particular kinds of language, are disproportionately enabled in conditions of teacher distancing. This is the issue that dare not speak its name, for when Bernstein tried to raise it he was, as Halliday noted, "driven out of the field". One of the reasons I wrote the article linked below is that Ruqaiya Hasan was not. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!XwBIBYQACtke5H49bUqEFmWYNHnhAFIkfp-wbT_knamfc_Vjaw3tKGbBGkJzD24z7oM31w$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XwBIBYQACtke5H49bUqEFmWYNHnhAFIkfp-wbT_knamfc_Vjaw3tKGbBGkJzD24KwiP_Cg$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200526/6cc8dfe6/attachment.html From robsub@ariadne.org.uk Tue May 26 01:52:33 2020 From: robsub@ariadne.org.uk (robsub@ariadne.org.uk) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 09:52:33 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just a couple of very quick observations. (I find regularly that by the time I have formulated my response to something, the conversation has moved on by several degrees, so I'm getting in quickly.) Firstly the link to your article on Ruqaiya didn't resolve, David. But I found it here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-UtouXiIa-kw$ . Thank you for that, though - looks well worth reading. Secondly, I always had the impression that Bernstein was resisted not because of his work on codes specifically, but because he was too prone to allowing his work to be used to justify class differentials, almost to the level of the poor keep themselves poor by deliberately restricting the language their children learn. Thirdly, meatspace. Hmmm. I'm toying with the idea of pinkspace. Less physically vulgar than meatspace and reflects the reality that the physical world, just like the online world, is dominated by those of us who are pink. Just a thought. Needs developing though. Rob On 2020-05-26 03:08, David Kellogg wrote: > Michael, Anthony, Elizabeth--and (of course) Annalisa: > > I apologize for changing the threadline title AGAIN. I feel like the > five-year-old who is always unscrewing the back of the TV set to see > the little people inside; I was very dissatisfied withe the abstract > theory on the other line, according to which everything is everything > and mediation and unmediation are equally both and I wanted a way of > finding the people inside it. I thought the term "meatspace", which > Annalisa has heard before, captured that feeling pretty well (and > there are also some echoes of a corruscating book review I once read > in MCA titled something like "Yer askin' me to believe in sentient > MEAT????") > > Let's use Michael's categories of "teacher presence" and "social > presence" instead, so long as we keep in mind the point that Michael > made at the end, that is, the teacher is always present even when the > teacher is not present (as when the child is doing homework alone) and > the additional point that teacher presence is one kind of social > presence. But because presence and absence are (like mediated and > unmediated) equally both ungradeable categories, I would prefer to > talk about teacher distancing and social distancing. Michael Osterholm > has objected to the term social distancing for the same reasons I > raised earlier--it's a physical, mechanical distancing that actually > creates a higher form of solidarity (and that is why the elements of > society which oppose higher forms of solidarity oppose it). So I put > "social distancing" in scare quotes. But the teacher distancing is > real enough. > > Real but not by itself of developmental significance. What worries me > is the possibility that we are adding to the kinds of inequalitiees > that Annalisa, Henry and Tom are talking about on the other thread. It > seems to me that teacher distancing differentially hurts some > populations. I disagree that Koreans are more homogeneous than other > cultures (in class terms significantly less so) and I also think that > if you were to sit through a lecture in the Korean language without > understanding Korean you would not agree that language is the least > important aspect of teacher presence. But (to bring these two > together) I think that students who are able to focus on language, and > on particular kinds of language, are disproportionately enabled in > conditions of teacher distancing. This is the issue that dare not > speak its name, for when Bernstein tried to raise it he was, as > Halliday noted, "driven out of the field". One of the reasons I wrote > the article linked below is that Ruqaiya Hasan was not. > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-Utot_Yz0eEQ$ [1] > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: _L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological > Works_ _Volume One: Foundations of Pedology_" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-UtotPljj6rQ$ [2] > > > Links: > ------ > [1] > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zce9P2I5M_FZBJKElhGyP20UejX0w$ > [2] > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zce9P2I5M_FZBJKElhGyP026P9-1A$ From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Tue May 26 02:09:01 2020 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 10:09:01 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good Morning (GMT+1) Henry I'm touched by your mail today. My life experience does not include such practical engagement as yours, with any of the major social disruptions / attempts at new organisation, of the C20. It seems dismissively facile to criticise amazing historic re-organisations of social life like the Cuban Revolution, but it is necessary. Otherwise the same mistakes will happen again and again. The political strand which I accept as most accurately analysing historical and current reality characterises the liberation movements (particularities, differences, I'm ignoring for sake of quick explanation) post 1900, as nationalist, and mostly state socialist/capitalist. IE they are top-down, state directed anti-imperialist/colonialist movements. The self-organisation and free association of the producers that is the essence of communist organisation is absent. Often there is some commitment to a Kautskyan / Stalinist "two stage theory", requiring full capitalist development to prepare the ground for the next step of proletarian rule - eg in the South African struggle. We can see where that has led so far. But the analysts I accept, posit that socialism in one country cannot be created nor sustained while the basis of total global social reproduction is the money based economy, taken forward by the capital-labour relationship of commodity production - the so-called 'free market' whose anarchy ensures an absence of any organised relationship to global human needs, since it is driven by the *value-based circulation of commodities* dominating all global production. The freedom is that of the individual / joint-stock company in the pursuit of surplus value. And, yes, Marx, does provide an analysis of "money" which indicates how a future system of production would/could not be based on the use of money and therefore wages. There is so much literature about this to be investigated, (much of it written by US authors, extraordinarily, given the Chicago School and the legacy of McCarthy). I started with Engels 'Socialism, Utopian and Scientific' which explained in a way that my pro-market, individualist history teacher could not, why the Anti-Corn Law League had 'won' and the Chartists had failed. Anyway, I am only recycling, from my own limited understanding, the sort of analysis that the original authors of the literature I value provide in overwhelming but convincing detail. While the way forward towards a future that communists see as essential if the planet is not to be destroyed, or at least human life on it, is not in prospect as far as any realist can foresee, at present, the reality of the Barbarism that Capital brings (together with the technology necessary for the possibility of real change), is clear every moment in our lives. Human resistance and creative answers to apparently insoluble problems, and the reality that the working class has nothing to gain that sustains *real* *fulfilling human* life from capital's continuation, sustain my knowledge that my commitment to moving beyond capitalism, is both essential and realistic. I trust that this attempted answer to your generous question makes sufficient sense . Best wishes Tom On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 22:26, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Hi Tom, > What is it about ?free market economies? is the cause of wage slavery? Is > there at least some jiggering of the market that could end ?destructive > anarchy?? Do we do away with money? And I am serious here. I take it that > capitalism is the problem, not the market, or money. I was in the doctoral > program in economics at UC Berkeley during the late 60s. My concentrations > were comparative economic systems and economic planning. I dropped out > after only getting a masters degree in economics there, and went to Cuba to > cut sugar cane with the Venceremos Brigade. I felt strongly Che?s call to > make the New Man (though women were there too, and check out the film > ?Lucia?) of that era, but I think that central planning (Castro?) of the > Cuban economy had a destructive and anarchic side. Castro apologized for > his mistakes during the year of 10 million tons of sugar cane production, > but the damage was done. Cuba has been a shining light in some ways for me > and others, not least the health care workers, the original Doctors Without > Borders, that beautifully exemplify the new human. > > So, really, what do we replace markets and money with? Or is it the ?free? > part that?s the rub. > > Henry > > > On May 25, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > > Hello Annalisa > > "All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is:" > > Since I have suggested neither of the alternatives you state as the only > way forward, it would surely invalidate your further argument. > > But I must admit that the idea of thirty thousand working class families > and then some, organising to change the wage-slavery employment system > that they are exploited by, would be a great idea. > Here's to that day, as the freely associated producers of our social life > organise to end the destructive anarchy of our present free-market > economies. > > Regards > > Tom > > > > On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 19:58, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >> Hi Tom and others, >> >> >> I agree that Capitalism is bad, and that it causes wealth and poverty in >> extremes. Which then creates social injustices that would be much lessened >> with less economic inequality. >> >> >> I do not think that I ever said (did I?) to ignore the traditional power >> structures. I said that every day we negotiate the power structures. And >> when we decide it's not working we can create change. That possibility is >> always an option, but it demands diligence, discipline, and discovery. >> >> >> All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is: >> >> 1. it's futile. Give up. The structures will always be against us. Settle >> in to your given hand of bad fortune. >> >> 2. grab a gun and kill as many people sitting in seats of power (which >> means the chair of power remains to be replaced by someone else). >> >> >> Forgive me if I reject both those options. >> >> >> As I said, perhaps in another post, the liberal position of citing data >> and objecting to the existence of that data, isn't going to make power >> structures change. >> >> >> What would make change is for those 15K-30K families to organize and >> among themselves decide how and what they can do to make their lot better. >> >> >> It's called organizing. >> >> >> Civil disobedience works because it is civil. >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> >> Annalisa >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Tom Richardson >> *Sent:* Monday, May 25, 2020 3:25 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> Hi Annalisa >> Good Morning - just a correction to figures about poverty in our town - I >> should have been more careful,; fortunately the figures from memory were an >> underestimate rather than an exaggeration: >> >> Almost 30,000 children are living in poverty across Teesside - and half >> are from working families. >> >> And stark new statistics reveal that the picture is worst in central >> Middlesbrough >> - >> as hyper-local, official Government data reveals three quarters of all kids >> in one neighbourhood are living below the breadline. >> >> Regards >> >> Tom >> BoWen >> >> >> On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 22:17, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> Alas, hello again Tom (& VO's), >> >> While I accept your assessment of our differences in approaches and >> understandings, I do not see that it is obvious that there is no meeting >> point. >> >> For example, innovation exists in science and in art, in business it is >> entrepreneurship. I believe that there are good things that come from >> business entrepreneurship, and there are bad things too. We love that art >> and science are innovative, when they are, but there can be failings there >> too. >> >> The captains of industry who believe they are self-made men, and who >> believe that anyone who decides for oneself being on the assembly line of >> the manufacturing floor is only a dumb pawn in a larger game, would be in >> my estimation the worst that kind of human that entrepreneurship generates. >> Elon Musk is one example, perhaps. >> >> As much as I likely would not want Elon Musk over for dinner, I can >> admire that he has been able to steward the creation of an electric car in >> the midst of a sleepwalking auto industry that cannot envision automobiles >> without a gas-eating combustible engine. >> >> At the same time what he gives he takes away: I'm not sure that I can >> ever get on board a space rocket to inhabit Mars. I actually object to that >> project because as long as we haven't worked out how to feed everyone on >> this earthship, we should not be escaping it by polluting another planet, >> even if, as Carl Sagan told us, there are billions and billions of them out >> there. >> >> "They" in the form of (other they)'s do not have power unless we give >> them that power. That power is always up for debate every minute, every >> day, every year. >> >> Given that there are now 38 million unemployed in the US (I can't name >> the numbers elsewhere and I'm sorry about that), that's like the entire >> population of California being on the dole. It is a significant number, and >> it may be that many of those people start their own businesses, not because >> of education or desire, but of necessity. >> >> Many of the young and unemployed are educated. That could be a >> combustible cocktail, depending upon their self-awareness and outward >> worldview. >> >> One strange article in NYT described a scene designer who has been out of >> work since the health order shutdown, and hasn't received any unemployment >> yet because she filed in New Jersey, while her partner did because he filed >> in New York. Then she got an offer to work in a company who is making ... >> wait for it.... facemasks, so now she is toiling over a machine, sewing >> facemasks. >> >> I don't think I could live in that situation because of the stark irony, >> if that is a just word for that. I mourn the loss of her creativity, but I >> hope it is temporary. >> >> Now out of necessity, she's had to travel that path. So I can agree with >> you that because of the government order to shut down business, and because >> a company who hired her decided to make facemasks, because what other >> ingenious product would or could one manufacture right now? they have >> shaped her working life. Have they shaped her social life, though. I mean >> completely? She still has her contacts on her iPhone, she likely returns >> home to her partner to cook dinner and search for more work. Her desires >> and dreams are likely impacted, but has she completely given up? Should she? >> >> I am not pro-revolution, only because they create rivers of blood in >> streets, etc. I'm more of the mind that incremental choices can together >> create a tipping point of social change. >> >> For example, consider the tiny house movement. Or how young people will >> share resources, or reevaluate buying things, or what they eat. >> >> People make the best lemonade only with the best lemons. >> >> There is going to have to be a reckoning of having so many unemployed >> people. It can't be ignored. To just pretend that everyone will be happy >> with a lower wage job (lower than when the pandemic hit), is only going to >> drive people to desperate measures. The country will want to put people to >> work and this could be an opportunity for collective change, for creating >> meaningful jobs. >> >> Because who wants a civil war. >> >> So there will have to be some sort of appeasement for the social reality >> that people must have their basic needs met. The temporary stimulus is a >> lifeline, but the real economic difficulties will start when people start >> to return to work, and there are less jobs with the result being there is >> less money circulating in the economy overall. With interest rates so low, >> and pumping more money into the economy is only going to raise the prices >> of things, possibly wages, but not the buying power. >> >> People will cut bait from the lives they once had, and simplify. Moving >> to less crowded cities and towns, returning to live with parents. Perhaps >> creating cooperatives. One area for discovery with so much time on one's >> hands is handcrafting. I think there will be a blooming of new businesses >> that incorporate *real* labor. This may also usher in more vocational >> training programs. >> >> One article I read today discussed the eating of meat, and how it is a >> destructive social practice including its impact on climate change. Largely >> that industry depends upon of automation, and now with slaughterhouses >> being virus hotspots, do you want to trust that the meat you buy is not >> tainted with COVID? Or that you are forcing a worker into an unsafe work >> environment and catch the virus? >> >> If people were decide to stop eating meat, or reduce even its consumption >> because it's too expensive, and if the government stops giving subsidies to >> these agro-corporations, then these polluting companies will fail. That >> would be great news. >> >> Then the writer pointed out that if we returned to diets higher in >> plant-based food, that would increase demand for real farms, real >> entrepreneurship and generate jobs, as it takes more people to grow >> vegetables, than it does to raise pigs or chickens. We would also become >> healthier as a population. There is already a network of farmer's markets >> for local produce, so it may mean a growth in that area. >> >> I suppose what I'm trying to say is I do not think it is so cut and dried >> that we are subject to the worst forever. I think with so much time on our >> hands people are free to organize and decide to help one another in mutual >> aid. We do not have to rely on traditional power structures, and we do not >> have to resort to bloody revolutions. >> >> Depending upon what you are looking for in life, there is a third way >> arising. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Tom Richardson >> *Sent:* Saturday, May 23, 2020 4:24 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> Hello once more Annalisa >> >> Our difference of approach to and understanding of the modern state and >> the production of social life obviously admits of no meeting point as far >> as I read your astonishingly wide-ranging and impassioned response. >> >> Without the simplicity of my reply intending to signal a facile sarcasm, >> I must bluntly state that I begin from the acceptance that nefarious or >> not, 'They', in the sense of government and corporations, do have the power >> to control and shape the organisation of social life. We can, if enough >> socio-political pressure can be brought to bear through social movements, >> rebellions, revolts, shift certain aspects of that fashioning of our lives. >> >> But at present, the relationship of wage slavery imposed by Capital ,and >> the society shaped by that relationship, are dominant throughout the life >> of our planet. >> >> Sad at such an impasse, since we both wish the best for humanity >> >> Tom >> >> >> >> On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 21:46, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> Hi Tom, and VO's of XMCA >> >> Concerning your questions about our new normal now that COVID19 is with >> us and here to stay, I think your guess is as good as anyone's. I am not >> sure if we as humans have ever been burdened with such an event as this, >> and at the same time are able to watch the unfolding events and respond (or >> not respond if you are a stable genius) quickly from the feedback of data, >> news, anecdotes, and other forms of perception of how the virus is >> impacting us. >> >> What is worth remembering as well, is that epidemiologists have been >> warning us for decades that a pandemic was a clear an present danger to the >> way we live and negotiate the modern world. We see in sensurround how right >> they were. >> >> As I consider your question, I have to think that people mow might be >> sorted into two classes, well at least two classes: >> >> >> 1. People who seem to think the virus is just another flu and once we >> find a vaccine, all will return to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December >> Holiday or pre-pandemic time you mark your calendar as before the pandemic >> hit, which of course depends upon where on the earth you are located). >> 2. People who seem to think the virus has changed us and there will >> never be going back to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday...) >> >> I suspect the Americans of the neo-conservative persuasion who have been >> motivated to protest health order social distancing believe that not only >> this is a conspiracy to control fredom-loving people, but that we should >> return to Christmas 2019 as soon as possible, they are of Cohort 1. >> >> I think Cohort 2 are going to be people who take in the facts and the >> data and are actively attempting to sort out where do we go from here. I >> feel confident you are in Cohort 2, as ar most people on this list. >> >> Now, as Carol M has pointed out, in a lot of ways our discussion about >> online learning is a first world concern, for those who have an internet >> connection that is ubiquitous not only at home, but at school, work, on the >> bus, on planes, in cafes, and other public gathering spaces, like city >> halls, or town squares. That's another reason why it's hard to take Klein >> seriously, in terms of *tone*. >> >> I recall reading something from George Lakoff when he indicates that >> there is a liberal stance that seems to believe that if one objects loudly >> enough with "sky is falling" rhetoric and then feed out various data, that >> using this strategy the audience will become motivated to protest in the >> streets, write letters to congress, run for office, or whatever civil >> action must be done, and with alacrity. It doesn't work. I do not think >> being against anything ever "works." I think only being for something >> works. >> >> Let's look at Klein's article as an example. If she were to be >> rhetorically successful she would outline the problem she identifies (Mr. >> Schmidt goes to Washington), but instead of all that is wrong, talk about >> what can be right. Not to say she should agree with Mr. Schmidt and his >> ways. >> >> I feel her article could be a lot heavier on what works with education >> and how to enhance that further. She does mention how money should b used >> more for school nurses, smaller classrooms, etc. This is where she could >> have expanded beautifully into a viable solution to spark everyone's >> imaginations. But she didn't do that. She is more motivated it seems to >> mark Mr. Schmidt and his technological minions to masterminding a New World >> Order that will steal our souls and tether us to the Matrix from now until >> the end of time. >> >> I also feel she would have been more conducive to discourse by writing an >> open letter to Cuomo and Schmidt, and to invite a response. This is also >> leading by example to cultivate democratic processes that are near and dear >> to all of us. Instead she "otherfies" them, and this is also not useful. >> And I am not saying that as a stance to defend Mr. Schmidt or Gov Cuomo, in >> any way. >> >> So back to your question, I do not think that there is any way we will be >> extricated from this reality of COVID 19. We will have to pick our stones >> across the river carefully so that none of us slips and is carried down the >> rapids. I feel it is more useful to say we are a family of one kind, and >> all of us have to stay together to make it across. And that all of us >> deserves a life jacket as a measure of survival because not all of us will >> get to the other side without getting wet, or falling in. >> >> The tension between CEOs and their contempt for the slow-food of >> democracy is well known. If only they could persuade all of us to eat fast >> food, then they could take over the world as the next McDonalds, in terms >> of technological vision, whatever a McDonalds would look like on a screen, >> as an app, whathaveyou. >> >> Unfortunately what seems to elude folks who have not worked in tech, or >> those who see tech as just another new Ford in the garage, is that >> technology is always in flux. There is always development of new hardware >> that needs new software written to use it, so there is a double-quicksand >> of events upon which technology is founded (and funded) upon. That's what >> Moore's Law is about. >> >> Technology in order to "be itself" must always move fleetingly, like the >> shark must to breathe. Technology will never be able to last the halls of >> government. For that reason, any rendition of technology in government (and >> school systems for that matter) will be like bad combovers that are meant >> to convince us that we are now more attractive and appealing (not meaning >> to offend those who live by their combovers...) >> >> Where I feel technology could best serve us is to help create grassroots >> democracy tools, to support what we know is possible and could even >> threaten the basis for representative democracy and bring it closer to a >> straight agora democracy. >> >> Some might call this anarchy, and I could argue along the lines of David >> Graeber that anarchy is a more pure form of democracy practiced in all >> "primitive" or "ancient" cultures, it's not a perfect fit, and I intend to >> make that reference loosely. My point is to say there should be what David >> K calls involution of what government is, to what government was, and to >> supplant that, or rather what causes those parts to be pushed to the >> margins is to imagine a government where there is mor connection to >> agora-like venues where one person speaking in a Zoom-like frame is of >> equal stature of any other person speaking in the frame. One can sort of >> imagine this with the Zoom-empowered senate hearings which I watched for a >> while on the NYT front page. It was really strange to me. I suppose the >> danger is that we get to hear Sally Mc? from Arizona use her time to blame >> the Chinese for the virus, etc, for more time that we would like. But >> that's democracy. >> >> So one fallout could be that grade-school kids and their resulting >> perezhivanie from Zoom-based classrooms, will adopt the tool for political >> discussions as adults. Might that be a good thing? >> >> Maybe. >> >> At the same time, do you remember a book that came out in the mid90s >> called "Silicon Snake Oil"? This is yet another phenomenon of technology, >> that people oozing charisma will claw their way to the microphone and pitch >> an idea about the next vaporware, who will then make unsubstantiated >> promises and claims directed to feed our fantasies and dreams, and who will >> then abscond with all the money, only to request not to look at the man >> behind the green curtain, or if pulled by the ear into a senate hearing >> will say "I thought it was a good idea at the time." etc. >> >> I think that is the view of Klein about all technology, and there are >> merits in that, but there are also other ways to think about it. >> >> This article about Marc Benioff in Wired recently discusses about the >> social entrepreneurship of his wealth: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.wired.com/story/gospel-of-wealth-according-to-marc-benioff/__;!!Mih3wA!XOU3loNF9ZFbuCQcelLGx46tCSzg0I3oYTkaV5qCD8Ey1KWdj--bPgJiIunBx5x5eKOKew$ >> >> Who by they way now owns the magazine Time, the way Jeff Bezos bought the >> WaPo, and Lauren Jobs bought The Altlantic, and Pierre Omidyar funded The >> Intercept. >> >> I do invite, as much as you can stomach, anyway, for any educators or >> other members of our vibrant list to make regular reading of Wired >> Magazine, which is a far more interesting read on technology than something >> like Fast Company. I encourage this reading, if only to know the enemy, as >> it were. Wired articles are far more nuanced and sophisticated than when >> the magazine first got off the ground in the early 90s. I find reading it >> helps to connect some dots for those who do not consume technology culture >> all the time. Just pick and choose what you are curious about. >> >> We must become familiar with the vernacular of technology if we want a >> hand in the game of how it plays in education, our stomping grounds. This >> will require effort on our part. That is not to say we must adopt all the >> shiny new toys. But we can be like a Consumer Report for education, and >> evaluate and measure the good the bad and the ugly of technology and its >> use in the edu sphere. >> >> We cannot sit on our laurels and wait for someone else to decide for us >> how technology will be deployed. That stance is what the mythology of >> inevitable technology rests and self-perpetuates. >> >> We must be more tech literate, and we must be the first to coin words and >> how they manifest in edu venues. What works what doesn't. I don't see any >> other way to fight back and to keep control of the educational narrative, >> where of course we want to hardwire zopeds, manifest and lead critical and >> nourishing perezhivanie, and model by example sterling mediated learning >> experiences for students and teachers. >> >> What other projects can there be? >> >> For me, this is "fighting back" because it makes the sort of shark-like >> entrepreneur recede for a time (as they will always be looking for a way >> into edu's tax coffers), because we are successful getting education right. >> >> I do not accept that entreprenuership is what took the sanctity from >> teaching and learning. But that's an argument to be made. I feel it is only >> one side of the argument. >> >> Once I had an male acquaintance tell me that one reason women are in >> inferior roles is because they let this happen to them. As you might >> imagine, I had a real hard time with that argument and I had to clench my >> jaw to now spew various vitriol upon him. But after I thought about it, in >> a narrow sense he is not wrong because not it is true that enough women in >> history identified the value to struggle for rights even if they would not >> see equality in their own lifetimes. There are many explanations for why >> that did not happen, that are not facile to depict. But then I also had to >> think of how much women's struggles have succeeded because they did decide >> to not let this happen to them anymore. But now women are learning in the >> US, anyway, that nothing fought for is a permanent fixture, and so we must >> become resigned to the perpetual struggle for equality, as all marginalized >> people must. >> >> So now I direct this to our context of education in the venue of online >> learning. This is not an easy question, and it is not intended to >> trivialize the work and efforts of many on this list, but it is instead a >> question of inner reflection, or a taking of inventory of one's own life: >> >> How much has each of you done to take measure and fight for meaningful >> education in the classroom? >> >> Could you have done more? Can you do more? >> >> Then the same for asking yourself how have you integrated technology >> appropriately into your learning methods and general perezhivanie. >> >> I hope this might provide some further food for thought concerning >> preservation on the sanctity of learning and instruction in the classroom. >> >> So all this is to reply to you Tom, that in short, the nefarious They can >> only take control if we let them. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> ps please excuse all typos, which are all made on my own. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Tom Richardson >> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 11:26 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> Hi Annalisa >> >> Thank you for providing the details of your deep and committed background >> in distance / online learning. Mine is obviously shallow, which must have >> triggered you and 'Robsub' somewhat. >> >> But my questioning is in the newer context of the Covid19 threats to >> global society and the solutions being sought to extricate us from them. >> >> Governor Cuomo's conversation with Schmidt to examine solutions to the >> problems of present coping and future emergence from the pandemic is >> understandable. Two persons with power and a need to act, discuss what >> technology (in its widest hard- and software aspects) has to offer. >> >> In a democracy we can assess the solutions they propose and shape them to >> what we know to be as near to optimal for our society as possible. Your >> assertion of the efficacy of our agency which Klein seems to deny, >> with her politico-economic caveats. >> >> Schmidt has an evangelism for the potential of technology, but expressed >> with such restraint - he's no zealot. He also, in the video of the ECNY >> conversation with Marie-Josee Kravis, sees the lack of 'simplicity' in the >> three-tier democratic system of the US. He is a CEO with an organisation >> geared to problem-analysis, solution choices, and operational capability >> which can be put into action without delaying debate. He expressed no >> hostility to 'democracy' but as he said, it does not work simply. >> >> Klein reminds us to be wary if not alarmed, not because she is despairing >> (I believe), but because that direct entrepreneurial drive has profit >> making as its unavoidable aim. Whatever Schmidt's humanistic feelings, if >> profit doesn't result from his and his companies actions, they will not >> survive. That competitive drive is also present in his aspirations for >> international dominance (see his remarks on the rise of China's technology). >> >> So far, the sort of distance / online learning you have worked on, has >> been nested in the context of family and (normal) school life. That >> normality had implicit in it human values, customs and structures, whatever >> differences of class, race, gender and culture were present. The melding of >> state and enterprise in a newly-developing novel (5G?)high-tech 'solution' >> to mediating education presents a situation which need to be examined I >> believe. And my query, in that 'Kleinian' context was looking for answers >> from those, like yourself, with wide experience of previous technological >> 'answers' and their implications for the results within the learner. >> >> I affirm, along with you, the irrepressible resistance and sheer >> cantankerousness we humans bring to unjust situations. But such fighting >> back will often be unsuccessful in its aims, when the need to reduce labour >> time with new technology is driving events - Luddism and machine looms? Our >> human drive to change and adapt, our use of our agency to create or alter >> our lives must not be suppressed. But what Klein is reminding us of is just >> how tilted is the balance of power - the power of the state and behind it, >> the drive from the vast corporate world, for profit. Our agency is so often >> undone by the arbitrary intervention of those forces. >> >> Those are the forces which have destroyed what you name the 'sanctity' of >> teaching and learning. I would name it the basic need for those goals, but >> we share it. With the need to re-invigorate just such a precious resource, >> we will continue to fight like hell. Despite their mere humanness, >> corporations and states at present have greater knowledge and power than >> 'mere' citizens. My intervention in xmca discussion was really to say >> "They're looking to take even more control of daily life. >> Within academia, you can analyse how they are making such changes happen >> and continue to alert the rest of us, if you fear the consequences of >> their changes." >> >> Best wishes >> Tom >> >> On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 22:29, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> Hi Tom, >> >> May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? >> >> Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We >> looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, >> once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always >> a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed >> by SL's prospects. >> >> In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, >> I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that >> students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one >> another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological >> fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would >> ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. >> >> Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like >> looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. >> Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. >> >> What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, >> which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open >> space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was >> perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. >> >> I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators >> already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online >> learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers >> during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of >> associations of place with learning. >> >> In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the >> AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, >> drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in >> order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye >> coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing >> abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and >> constrain learning to books. >> >> We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We >> must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. >> >> I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which >> the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts >> of learning. >> >> I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but >> out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for >> quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged >> learning venues . Not with grade school. >> >> I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for >> grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally >> studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, >> although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon >> it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess >> that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because >> parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. >> >> I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, >> nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. >> >> What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is >> childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own >> families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!XOU3loNF9ZFbuCQcelLGx46tCSzg0I3oYTkaV5qCD8Ey1KWdj--bPgJiIunBx5zzYqf0mw$ >> >> >> It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, >> not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may >> also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we >> must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. >> >> It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the >> classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances >> that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. >> >> Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by >> the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that >> he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and >> that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. >> People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, >> etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it >> the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of >> learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. >> >> If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to >> already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support >> well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be >> integrated with existing models. >> >> If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another >> way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where >> money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and >> wasteful. >> >> One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online >> learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may >> also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or >> riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and >> surveillance is a constructive combination. >> >> There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more >> appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet >> words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must >> better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite >> behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown >> interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from >> what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. >> >> This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a >> mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and >> introspection, I will never accept that reality. >> >> To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say >> "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers >> and pins." >> >> I just do not believe this narrative. >> >> We cannot give up. >> >> Is there a fight ahead? Yes. >> >> Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most >> definitely, yes. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Tom Richardson >> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> >> Hello Annalisa >> Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost >> none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of >> human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour >> acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. >> >> - What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment >> created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the >> widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such >> learning takes place?'. >> - What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes >> for the *perezhivanie *of the learner, which shapes her social being >> and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', >> 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? >> >> Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet >> listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what >> is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. >> I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is >> within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. >> >> Kind regards >> Tom >> >> >> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> Hello Tom, >> >> Thank you for posting the link. >> >> I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly >> dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is >> not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking >> pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended >> into our lives. >> >> I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It >> reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and >> resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has >> become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. >> >> At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power >> in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. >> >> Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill >> Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as >> the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment >> facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include >> Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding >> flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his >> billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). >> >> I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to >> encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee >> to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that >> coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. >> >> Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem >> I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. >> >> She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of >> COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to >> control the world. >> >> Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of >> the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. >> Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is >> the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to >> deliberate the way forward. >> >> As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to >> control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, >> or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in >> ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be >> construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency >> to decide how to use our tools. >> >> Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt >> will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled >> children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional >> online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. >> >> So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply >> does not hold water for me. >> >> I hope this might be a little encouraging. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of mike cole >> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> Hello Tom Richardson >> This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat >> Project" that has just finished its >> planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human >> development, and theories of "Development >> in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced >> by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. >> Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to >> actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. >> The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of >> essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. >> In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most >> dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced >> a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most >> members of this discussion over the years, >> is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations >> have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting >> a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). >> >> We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social >> science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp >> speed and its invisible. >> >> Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about >> for 100 years. >> Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start >> providing working models of effective practices that do NOT >> assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. >> >> Thanks for asking. >> mike >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson < >> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: >> >> Greetings Xmca-ers >> I would like to raise a question. >> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major >> questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, >> democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international >> competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan >> approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to >> these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been >> happening recently: >> >> >> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks >> after that article appeared, he described >> the >> ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the >> country had been forced to cobble together during this public health >> emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. >> >> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do >> kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better >> remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? >> will help kids learn better.? " >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!XOU3loNF9ZFbuCQcelLGx46tCSzg0I3oYTkaV5qCD8Ey1KWdj--bPgJiIunBx5yyLXH6Vw$ >> >> >> >> Just asking >> Tom Richardson >> Middlesbrough UK >> >> >> >> -- >> >> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, >> translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >> --------------------------------------------------- >> For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. >> For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net >> >> . >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200526/844f94fb/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Tue May 26 06:05:46 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 09:05:46 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The "sentient meat" reference: "They're Made Out of Meat" by Terry Bisson, 1991 -- year after year, a reliable classroom favorite It's short and sweet: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/thinkingMeat.html__;!!Mih3wA!VJzfiEC6bWCRHXufqymUpDpqWFqNXBVaTCIZBKtpn8lFmQghrM0rUHLQmaa3QxvumGAcKg$ Odd creatures, for sure ~ On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 10:14 PM David Kellogg wrote: > Michael, Anthony, Elizabeth--and (of course) Annalisa: > > I apologize for changing the threadline title AGAIN. I feel like the > five-year-old who is always unscrewing the back of the TV set to see the > little people inside; I was very dissatisfied withe the abstract theory on > the other line, according to which everything is everything and mediation > and unmediation are equally both and I wanted a way of finding the people > inside it. I thought the term "meatspace", which Annalisa has heard before, > captured that feeling pretty well (and there are also some echoes of a > corruscating book review I once read in MCA titled something like "Yer > askin' me to believe in sentient MEAT????") > > Let's use Michael's categories of "teacher presence" and "social presence" > instead, so long as we keep in mind the point that Michael made at the end, > that is, the teacher is always present even when the teacher is not present > (as when the child is doing homework alone) and the additional point that > teacher presence is one kind of social presence. But because presence and > absence are (like mediated and unmediated) equally both ungradeable > categories, I would prefer to talk about teacher distancing and social > distancing. Michael Osterholm has objected to the term social distancing > for the same reasons I raised earlier--it's a physical, mechanical > distancing that actually creates a higher form of solidarity (and that is > why the elements of society which oppose higher forms of solidarity oppose > it). So I put "social distancing" in scare quotes. But the teacher > distancing is real enough. > > Real but not by itself of developmental significance. What worries me is > the possibility that we are adding to the kinds of inequalitiees that > Annalisa, Henry and Tom are talking about on the other thread. It seems to > me that teacher distancing differentially hurts some populations. I > disagree that Koreans are more homogeneous than other cultures (in class > terms significantly less so) and I also think that if you were to sit > through a lecture in the Korean language without understanding Korean you > would not agree that language is the least important aspect of teacher > presence. But (to bring these two together) I think that students who are > able to focus on language, and on particular kinds of language, are > disproportionately enabled in conditions of teacher distancing. This is the > issue that dare not speak its name, for when Bernstein tried to raise it he > was, as Halliday noted, "driven out of the field". One of the reasons I > wrote the article linked below is that Ruqaiya Hasan was not. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VJzfiEC6bWCRHXufqymUpDpqWFqNXBVaTCIZBKtpn8lFmQghrM0rUHLQmaa3QxvMJe5eVg$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VJzfiEC6bWCRHXufqymUpDpqWFqNXBVaTCIZBKtpn8lFmQghrM0rUHLQmaa3QxvTtFZeTw$ > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200526/583b015d/attachment.html From glassman.13@osu.edu Tue May 26 06:47:36 2020 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 13:47:36 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello David, Elizabeth, Annalisa, Rob, others, Well social presence and teacher presence are two completely different lines of research and thinking even though they sound alike. Teacher presence comes from localized classroom research while social presence comes from the communication field I believe sometime in the 1960s. Lately I have begun to think of teacher presence as similar to Bourdeiu's cultural capital. Our education system teaches certain groups of children how to read and get in sync with teachers from their more subtle physical signs so that they become more successful later in their school careers and in life. Many of the more successful children also get practice in reading these different signs at home. It is the old adage, don't listen to what I say, watch what I do. Social presence on the other hand is more related to our own understanding of our own communications and the value of those communications. We have a sense of what we are doing from those who are watching us (in the broad sense), and this sense changes as our sense of those who are watching us changes not only how we act but the investment we make in what we do changes accordingly. I see it all the time in teachers, who they are changes completely when they get up in from of a room of students. Just a mind experiment. The next time you read an XMCA post see if you can imagine a few of the members standing over your should observing you are you are reading with the expectation of some response. See how this might change your behavior. As for Zoom. I just think it is not a good tool for education and the reason we use it is illusory (because it recreates a place-based experience so we are more comfortable with it?). Zoom's purpose is not education in the sense of knowledge sharing and knowledge creation. Its proximal purpose I believe was to sell to corporations and such for meetings so they would not have to spend as much on travel. Its distal purpose, meeting platforms in general, was so individuals could engage in multiple activities related to the topic but not focused on the topic. I mean it is kind of cool, you can have a meeting where you wear a tie on top and boxer shorts below. And we are sometimes a talking head culture. But it is by nature very unilateral and expert oriented. Do we have to develop a whole new cultural capital oeuvre for Zoom meetings. We must make sure that those who are ahead stay ahead. Annalisa in answer to your question no education or Zoom, I worry about binary choices such as this. Maybe we should be asking ourselves how we got here in the first place. Why are these our only two choices right now, and many attempts using Meeting platforms are failing as they seem to be, how do we move forward from here. Why aren't we asking more questions, trying to understand how our great digital experiment is failing education. And speaking to Rob's poignant use of the term pink space, why is the lack of universal broadband dominating discussions. I think about the whole one to one movement and I really question why we leaped ahead to this without a reckoning over the need to have every corner of our society equitably wired (spoiler alert: because instead of corporations making oodles of money our society will have to spend oodles of money). So Annalisa I got back to your question, is it better to have no education or Zoom and I ask if you stepped on a nail would it be better to put on a band-aid to stop the bleeding or to figure our how to save your life (I know the answer will be both but where do I prioritize). Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of robsub@ariadne.org.uk Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 4:53 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" Just a couple of very quick observations. (I find regularly that by the time I have formulated my response to something, the conversation has moved on by several degrees, so I'm getting in quickly.) Firstly the link to your article on Ruqaiya didn't resolve, David. But I found it here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-UtouXiIa-kw$ . Thank you for that, though - looks well worth reading. Secondly, I always had the impression that Bernstein was resisted not because of his work on codes specifically, but because he was too prone to allowing his work to be used to justify class differentials, almost to the level of the poor keep themselves poor by deliberately restricting the language their children learn. Thirdly, meatspace. Hmmm. I'm toying with the idea of pinkspace. Less physically vulgar than meatspace and reflects the reality that the physical world, just like the online world, is dominated by those of us who are pink. Just a thought. Needs developing though. Rob On 2020-05-26 03:08, David Kellogg wrote: > Michael, Anthony, Elizabeth--and (of course) Annalisa: > > I apologize for changing the threadline title AGAIN. I feel like the > five-year-old who is always unscrewing the back of the TV set to see > the little people inside; I was very dissatisfied withe the abstract > theory on the other line, according to which everything is everything > and mediation and unmediation are equally both and I wanted a way of > finding the people inside it. I thought the term "meatspace", which > Annalisa has heard before, captured that feeling pretty well (and > there are also some echoes of a corruscating book review I once read > in MCA titled something like "Yer askin' me to believe in sentient > MEAT????") > > Let's use Michael's categories of "teacher presence" and "social > presence" instead, so long as we keep in mind the point that Michael > made at the end, that is, the teacher is always present even when the > teacher is not present (as when the child is doing homework alone) and > the additional point that teacher presence is one kind of social > presence. But because presence and absence are (like mediated and > unmediated) equally both ungradeable categories, I would prefer to > talk about teacher distancing and social distancing. Michael Osterholm > has objected to the term social distancing for the same reasons I > raised earlier--it's a physical, mechanical distancing that actually > creates a higher form of solidarity (and that is why the elements of > society which oppose higher forms of solidarity oppose it). So I put > "social distancing" in scare quotes. But the teacher distancing is > real enough. > > Real but not by itself of developmental significance. What worries me > is the possibility that we are adding to the kinds of inequalitiees > that Annalisa, Henry and Tom are talking about on the other thread. It > seems to me that teacher distancing differentially hurts some > populations. I disagree that Koreans are more homogeneous than other > cultures (in class terms significantly less so) and I also think that > if you were to sit through a lecture in the Korean language without > understanding Korean you would not agree that language is the least > important aspect of teacher presence. But (to bring these two > together) I think that students who are able to focus on language, and > on particular kinds of language, are disproportionately enabled in > conditions of teacher distancing. This is the issue that dare not > speak its name, for when Bernstein tried to raise it he was, as > Halliday noted, "driven out of the field". One of the reasons I wrote > the article linked below is that Ruqaiya Hasan was not. > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie > w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d > 7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-Utot_Yz0eEQ$ [1] > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: _L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological > Works_ _Volume One: Foundations of Pedology_" > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 > 5270__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqO > DPVr-UtotPljj6rQ$ [2] > > > Links: > ------ > [1] > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie > w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zc > e9P2I5M_FZBJKElhGyP20UejX0w$ > [2] > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 > 5270__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zce9P2I5M_FZB > JKElhGyP026P9-1A$ From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue May 26 09:02:05 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 10:02:05 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78D4E5A7-6661-4F59-A41F-A1FD92995FD6@gmail.com> Hi Tom, Thank you for your rich, well-thought-out response to my question. And thank you for recognizing that I wanted it to be generous. Perhaps a quibble is that you associate the first stage of Stalinist rule as capitalist, rather than industrial, as I understand it. I think that?s important. Stalin?s top-down planning had the same hall marks as Mao?s, Castro?s and the current North Korean leader. I appreciate your optimism that any system devised by humans can create human thriving that is not destructive of of humanity itself. We seem to have boxed ourselves into a corner by destroying our niche, the world. COVID-19 and climate change, IMHO, we are all, indvidually and collectively complicit. I hope that we can get beyond romanticism and cynicism in meeting our fate. I think that Vygotsky and Spinoza represent what can come of wrestling with open hearts and clear thinking with our condition. Henry > On May 26, 2020, at 3:09 AM, Tom Richardson wrote: > > Good Morning (GMT+1) Henry > > I'm touched by your mail today. My life experience does not include such practical engagement as yours, with any of the major social disruptions / attempts at new organisation, of the C20. > > It seems dismissively facile to criticise amazing historic re-organisations of social life like the Cuban Revolution, but it is necessary. Otherwise the same mistakes will happen again and again. > > The political strand which I accept as most accurately analysing historical and current reality characterises the liberation movements (particularities, differences, I'm ignoring for sake of quick explanation) post 1900, as nationalist, and mostly state socialist/capitalist. IE they are top-down, state directed anti-imperialist/colonialist movements. The self-organisation and free association of the producers that is the essence of communist organisation is absent. Often there is some commitment to a Kautskyan / Stalinist "two stage theory", requiring full capitalist development to prepare the ground for the next step of proletarian rule - eg in the South African struggle. We can see where that has led so far. > > But the analysts I accept, posit that socialism in one country cannot be created nor sustained while the basis of total global social reproduction is the money based economy, taken forward by the capital-labour relationship of commodity production - the so-called 'free market' whose anarchy ensures an absence of any organised relationship to global human needs, since it is driven by the value-based circulation of commodities dominating all global production. > > The freedom is that of the individual / joint-stock company in the pursuit of surplus value. And, yes, Marx, does provide an analysis of "money" which indicates how a future system of production would/could not be based on the use of money and therefore wages. > > There is so much literature about this to be investigated, (much of it written by US authors, extraordinarily, given the Chicago School and the legacy of McCarthy). I started with Engels 'Socialism, Utopian and Scientific' which explained in a way that my pro-market, individualist history teacher could not, why the Anti-Corn Law League had 'won' and the Chartists had failed. > > Anyway, I am only recycling, from my own limited understanding, the sort of analysis that the original authors of the literature I value provide in overwhelming but convincing detail. > > While the way forward towards a future that communists see as essential if the planet is not to be destroyed, or at least human life on it, is not in prospect as far as any realist can foresee, at present, the reality of the Barbarism that Capital brings (together with the technology necessary for the possibility of real change), is clear every moment in our lives. > > Human resistance and creative answers to apparently insoluble problems, and the reality that the working class has nothing to gain that sustains real fulfilling human life from capital's continuation, sustain my knowledge that my commitment to moving beyond capitalism, is both essential and realistic. > > I trust that this attempted answer to your generous question makes sufficient sense . > > Best wishes > > Tom > > > > On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 22:26, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > Hi Tom, > What is it about ?free market economies? is the cause of wage slavery? Is there at least some jiggering of the market that could end ?destructive anarchy?? Do we do away with money? And I am serious here. I take it that capitalism is the problem, not the market, or money. I was in the doctoral program in economics at UC Berkeley during the late 60s. My concentrations were comparative economic systems and economic planning. I dropped out after only getting a masters degree in economics there, and went to Cuba to cut sugar cane with the Venceremos Brigade. I felt strongly Che?s call to make the New Man (though women were there too, and check out the film ?Lucia?) of that era, but I think that central planning (Castro?) of the Cuban economy had a destructive and anarchic side. Castro apologized for his mistakes during the year of 10 million tons of sugar cane production, but the damage was done. Cuba has been a shining light in some ways for me and others, not least the health care workers, the original Doctors Without Borders, that beautifully exemplify the new human. > > So, really, what do we replace markets and money with? Or is it the ?free? part that?s the rub. > > Henry > > >> On May 25, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Tom Richardson > wrote: >> >> Hello Annalisa >> >> "All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is:" >> >> Since I have suggested neither of the alternatives you state as the only way forward, it would surely invalidate your further argument. >> >> But I must admit that the idea of thirty thousand working class families and then some, organising to change the wage-slavery employment system that they are exploited by, would be a great idea. >> Here's to that day, as the freely associated producers of our social life organise to end the destructive anarchy of our present free-market economies. >> >> Regards >> >> Tom >> >> >> >> On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 19:58, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >> Hi Tom and others, >> >> >> >> I agree that Capitalism is bad, and that it causes wealth and poverty in extremes. Which then creates social injustices that would be much lessened with less economic inequality. >> >> >> >> I do not think that I ever said (did I?) to ignore the traditional power structures. I said that every day we negotiate the power structures. And when we decide it's not working we can create change. That possibility is always an option, but it demands diligence, discipline, and discovery. >> >> >> >> All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is: >> >> 1. it's futile. Give up. The structures will always be against us. Settle in to your given hand of bad fortune. >> >> 2. grab a gun and kill as many people sitting in seats of power (which means the chair of power remains to be replaced by someone else). >> >> >> >> Forgive me if I reject both those options. >> >> >> >> As I said, perhaps in another post, the liberal position of citing data and objecting to the existence of that data, isn't going to make power structures change. >> >> >> >> What would make change is for those 15K-30K families to organize and among themselves decide how and what they can do to make their lot better. >> >> >> >> It's called organizing. >> >> >> >> Civil disobedience works because it is civil. >> >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >> Sent: Monday, May 25, 2020 3:25 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> [EXTERNAL] >> >> Hi Annalisa >> Good Morning - just a correction to figures about poverty in our town - I should have been more careful,; fortunately the figures from memory were an underestimate rather than an exaggeration: >> Almost 30,000 children are living in poverty across Teesside - and half are from working families. >> >> And stark new statistics reveal that the picture is worst in central Middlesbrough - as hyper-local, official Government data reveals three quarters of all kids in one neighbourhood are living below the breadline. >> >> Regards >> >> Tom >> >> >> BoWen >> >> >> On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 22:17, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >> Alas, hello again Tom (& VO's), >> >> While I accept your assessment of our differences in approaches and understandings, I do not see that it is obvious that there is no meeting point. >> >> For example, innovation exists in science and in art, in business it is entrepreneurship. I believe that there are good things that come from business entrepreneurship, and there are bad things too. We love that art and science are innovative, when they are, but there can be failings there too. >> >> The captains of industry who believe they are self-made men, and who believe that anyone who decides for oneself being on the assembly line of the manufacturing floor is only a dumb pawn in a larger game, would be in my estimation the worst that kind of human that entrepreneurship generates. Elon Musk is one example, perhaps. >> >> As much as I likely would not want Elon Musk over for dinner, I can admire that he has been able to steward the creation of an electric car in the midst of a sleepwalking auto industry that cannot envision automobiles without a gas-eating combustible engine. >> >> At the same time what he gives he takes away: I'm not sure that I can ever get on board a space rocket to inhabit Mars. I actually object to that project because as long as we haven't worked out how to feed everyone on this earthship, we should not be escaping it by polluting another planet, even if, as Carl Sagan told us, there are billions and billions of them out there. >> >> "They" in the form of (other they)'s do not have power unless we give them that power. That power is always up for debate every minute, every day, every year. >> >> Given that there are now 38 million unemployed in the US (I can't name the numbers elsewhere and I'm sorry about that), that's like the entire population of California being on the dole. It is a significant number, and it may be that many of those people start their own businesses, not because of education or desire, but of necessity. >> >> Many of the young and unemployed are educated. That could be a combustible cocktail, depending upon their self-awareness and outward worldview. >> >> One strange article in NYT described a scene designer who has been out of work since the health order shutdown, and hasn't received any unemployment yet because she filed in New Jersey, while her partner did because he filed in New York. Then she got an offer to work in a company who is making ... wait for it.... facemasks, so now she is toiling over a machine, sewing facemasks. >> >> I don't think I could live in that situation because of the stark irony, if that is a just word for that. I mourn the loss of her creativity, but I hope it is temporary. >> >> Now out of necessity, she's had to travel that path. So I can agree with you that because of the government order to shut down business, and because a company who hired her decided to make facemasks, because what other ingenious product would or could one manufacture right now? they have shaped her working life. Have they shaped her social life, though. I mean completely? She still has her contacts on her iPhone, she likely returns home to her partner to cook dinner and search for more work. Her desires and dreams are likely impacted, but has she completely given up? Should she? >> >> I am not pro-revolution, only because they create rivers of blood in streets, etc. I'm more of the mind that incremental choices can together create a tipping point of social change. >> >> For example, consider the tiny house movement. Or how young people will share resources, or reevaluate buying things, or what they eat. >> >> People make the best lemonade only with the best lemons. >> >> There is going to have to be a reckoning of having so many unemployed people. It can't be ignored. To just pretend that everyone will be happy with a lower wage job (lower than when the pandemic hit), is only going to drive people to desperate measures. The country will want to put people to work and this could be an opportunity for collective change, for creating meaningful jobs. >> >> Because who wants a civil war. >> >> So there will have to be some sort of appeasement for the social reality that people must have their basic needs met. The temporary stimulus is a lifeline, but the real economic difficulties will start when people start to return to work, and there are less jobs with the result being there is less money circulating in the economy overall. With interest rates so low, and pumping more money into the economy is only going to raise the prices of things, possibly wages, but not the buying power. >> >> People will cut bait from the lives they once had, and simplify. Moving to less crowded cities and towns, returning to live with parents. Perhaps creating cooperatives. One area for discovery with so much time on one's hands is handcrafting. I think there will be a blooming of new businesses that incorporate *real* labor. This may also usher in more vocational training programs. >> >> One article I read today discussed the eating of meat, and how it is a destructive social practice including its impact on climate change. Largely that industry depends upon of automation, and now with slaughterhouses being virus hotspots, do you want to trust that the meat you buy is not tainted with COVID? Or that you are forcing a worker into an unsafe work environment and catch the virus? >> >> If people were decide to stop eating meat, or reduce even its consumption because it's too expensive, and if the government stops giving subsidies to these agro-corporations, then these polluting companies will fail. That would be great news. >> >> Then the writer pointed out that if we returned to diets higher in plant-based food, that would increase demand for real farms, real entrepreneurship and generate jobs, as it takes more people to grow vegetables, than it does to raise pigs or chickens. We would also become healthier as a population. There is already a network of farmer's markets for local produce, so it may mean a growth in that area. >> >> I suppose what I'm trying to say is I do not think it is so cut and dried that we are subject to the worst forever. I think with so much time on our hands people are free to organize and decide to help one another in mutual aid. We do not have to rely on traditional power structures, and we do not have to resort to bloody revolutions. >> >> Depending upon what you are looking for in life, there is a third way arising. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 4:24 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> [EXTERNAL] >> >> Hello once more Annalisa >> >> Our difference of approach to and understanding of the modern state and the production of social life obviously admits of no meeting point as far as I read your astonishingly wide-ranging and impassioned response. >> >> Without the simplicity of my reply intending to signal a facile sarcasm, I must bluntly state that I begin from the acceptance that nefarious or not, 'They', in the sense of government and corporations, do have the power to control and shape the organisation of social life. We can, if enough socio-political pressure can be brought to bear through social movements, rebellions, revolts, shift certain aspects of that fashioning of our lives. >> >> But at present, the relationship of wage slavery imposed by Capital ,and the society shaped by that relationship, are dominant throughout the life of our planet. >> >> Sad at such an impasse, since we both wish the best for humanity >> >> Tom >> >> >> >> On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 21:46, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >> Hi Tom, and VO's of XMCA >> >> Concerning your questions about our new normal now that COVID19 is with us and here to stay, I think your guess is as good as anyone's. I am not sure if we as humans have ever been burdened with such an event as this, and at the same time are able to watch the unfolding events and respond (or not respond if you are a stable genius) quickly from the feedback of data, news, anecdotes, and other forms of perception of how the virus is impacting us. >> >> What is worth remembering as well, is that epidemiologists have been warning us for decades that a pandemic was a clear an present danger to the way we live and negotiate the modern world. We see in sensurround how right they were. >> >> As I consider your question, I have to think that people mow might be sorted into two classes, well at least two classes: >> >> People who seem to think the virus is just another flu and once we find a vaccine, all will return to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday or pre-pandemic time you mark your calendar as before the pandemic hit, which of course depends upon where on the earth you are located). >> People who seem to think the virus has changed us and there will never be going back to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday...) >> I suspect the Americans of the neo-conservative persuasion who have been motivated to protest health order social distancing believe that not only this is a conspiracy to control fredom-loving people, but that we should return to Christmas 2019 as soon as possible, they are of Cohort 1. >> >> I think Cohort 2 are going to be people who take in the facts and the data and are actively attempting to sort out where do we go from here. I feel confident you are in Cohort 2, as ar most people on this list. >> >> Now, as Carol M has pointed out, in a lot of ways our discussion about online learning is a first world concern, for those who have an internet connection that is ubiquitous not only at home, but at school, work, on the bus, on planes, in cafes, and other public gathering spaces, like city halls, or town squares. That's another reason why it's hard to take Klein seriously, in terms of *tone*. >> >> I recall reading something from George Lakoff when he indicates that there is a liberal stance that seems to believe that if one objects loudly enough with "sky is falling" rhetoric and then feed out various data, that using this strategy the audience will become motivated to protest in the streets, write letters to congress, run for office, or whatever civil action must be done, and with alacrity. It doesn't work. I do not think being against anything ever "works." I think only being for something works. >> >> Let's look at Klein's article as an example. If she were to be rhetorically successful she would outline the problem she identifies (Mr. Schmidt goes to Washington), but instead of all that is wrong, talk about what can be right. Not to say she should agree with Mr. Schmidt and his ways. >> >> I feel her article could be a lot heavier on what works with education and how to enhance that further. She does mention how money should b used more for school nurses, smaller classrooms, etc. This is where she could have expanded beautifully into a viable solution to spark everyone's imaginations. But she didn't do that. She is more motivated it seems to mark Mr. Schmidt and his technological minions to masterminding a New World Order that will steal our souls and tether us to the Matrix from now until the end of time. >> >> I also feel she would have been more conducive to discourse by writing an open letter to Cuomo and Schmidt, and to invite a response. This is also leading by example to cultivate democratic processes that are near and dear to all of us. Instead she "otherfies" them, and this is also not useful. And I am not saying that as a stance to defend Mr. Schmidt or Gov Cuomo, in any way. >> >> So back to your question, I do not think that there is any way we will be extricated from this reality of COVID 19. We will have to pick our stones across the river carefully so that none of us slips and is carried down the rapids. I feel it is more useful to say we are a family of one kind, and all of us have to stay together to make it across. And that all of us deserves a life jacket as a measure of survival because not all of us will get to the other side without getting wet, or falling in. >> >> The tension between CEOs and their contempt for the slow-food of democracy is well known. If only they could persuade all of us to eat fast food, then they could take over the world as the next McDonalds, in terms of technological vision, whatever a McDonalds would look like on a screen, as an app, whathaveyou. >> >> Unfortunately what seems to elude folks who have not worked in tech, or those who see tech as just another new Ford in the garage, is that technology is always in flux. There is always development of new hardware that needs new software written to use it, so there is a double-quicksand of events upon which technology is founded (and funded) upon. That's what Moore's Law is about. >> >> Technology in order to "be itself" must always move fleetingly, like the shark must to breathe. Technology will never be able to last the halls of government. For that reason, any rendition of technology in government (and school systems for that matter) will be like bad combovers that are meant to convince us that we are now more attractive and appealing (not meaning to offend those who live by their combovers...) >> >> Where I feel technology could best serve us is to help create grassroots democracy tools, to support what we know is possible and could even threaten the basis for representative democracy and bring it closer to a straight agora democracy. >> >> Some might call this anarchy, and I could argue along the lines of David Graeber that anarchy is a more pure form of democracy practiced in all "primitive" or "ancient" cultures, it's not a perfect fit, and I intend to make that reference loosely. My point is to say there should be what David K calls involution of what government is, to what government was, and to supplant that, or rather what causes those parts to be pushed to the margins is to imagine a government where there is mor connection to agora-like venues where one person speaking in a Zoom-like frame is of equal stature of any other person speaking in the frame. One can sort of imagine this with the Zoom-empowered senate hearings which I watched for a while on the NYT front page. It was really strange to me. I suppose the danger is that we get to hear Sally Mc? from Arizona use her time to blame the Chinese for the virus, etc, for more time that we would like. But that's democracy. >> >> So one fallout could be that grade-school kids and their resulting perezhivanie from Zoom-based classrooms, will adopt the tool for political discussions as adults. Might that be a good thing? >> >> Maybe. >> >> At the same time, do you remember a book that came out in the mid90s called "Silicon Snake Oil"? This is yet another phenomenon of technology, that people oozing charisma will claw their way to the microphone and pitch an idea about the next vaporware, who will then make unsubstantiated promises and claims directed to feed our fantasies and dreams, and who will then abscond with all the money, only to request not to look at the man behind the green curtain, or if pulled by the ear into a senate hearing will say "I thought it was a good idea at the time." etc. >> >> I think that is the view of Klein about all technology, and there are merits in that, but there are also other ways to think about it. >> >> This article about Marc Benioff in Wired recently discusses about the social entrepreneurship of his wealth:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.wired.com/story/gospel-of-wealth-according-to-marc-benioff/__;!!Mih3wA!WH1CuWy17t-h406Xf3Bf2oJpxxwqNybYaYxGdDRUfVk9szgKPktlwCCqUklj4uS6KD2_7g$ >> Who by they way now owns the magazine Time, the way Jeff Bezos bought the WaPo, and Lauren Jobs bought The Altlantic, and Pierre Omidyar funded The Intercept. >> >> I do invite, as much as you can stomach, anyway, for any educators or other members of our vibrant list to make regular reading of Wired Magazine, which is a far more interesting read on technology than something like Fast Company. I encourage this reading, if only to know the enemy, as it were. Wired articles are far more nuanced and sophisticated than when the magazine first got off the ground in the early 90s. I find reading it helps to connect some dots for those who do not consume technology culture all the time. Just pick and choose what you are curious about. >> >> We must become familiar with the vernacular of technology if we want a hand in the game of how it plays in education, our stomping grounds. This will require effort on our part. That is not to say we must adopt all the shiny new toys. But we can be like a Consumer Report for education, and evaluate and measure the good the bad and the ugly of technology and its use in the edu sphere. >> >> We cannot sit on our laurels and wait for someone else to decide for us how technology will be deployed. That stance is what the mythology of inevitable technology rests and self-perpetuates. >> >> We must be more tech literate, and we must be the first to coin words and how they manifest in edu venues. What works what doesn't. I don't see any other way to fight back and to keep control of the educational narrative, where of course we want to hardwire zopeds, manifest and lead critical and nourishing perezhivanie, and model by example sterling mediated learning experiences for students and teachers. >> >> What other projects can there be? >> >> For me, this is "fighting back" because it makes the sort of shark-like entrepreneur recede for a time (as they will always be looking for a way into edu's tax coffers), because we are successful getting education right. >> >> I do not accept that entreprenuership is what took the sanctity from teaching and learning. But that's an argument to be made. I feel it is only one side of the argument. >> >> Once I had an male acquaintance tell me that one reason women are in inferior roles is because they let this happen to them. As you might imagine, I had a real hard time with that argument and I had to clench my jaw to now spew various vitriol upon him. But after I thought about it, in a narrow sense he is not wrong because not it is true that enough women in history identified the value to struggle for rights even if they would not see equality in their own lifetimes. There are many explanations for why that did not happen, that are not facile to depict. But then I also had to think of how much women's struggles have succeeded because they did decide to not let this happen to them anymore. But now women are learning in the US, anyway, that nothing fought for is a permanent fixture, and so we must become resigned to the perpetual struggle for equality, as all marginalized people must. >> >> So now I direct this to our context of education in the venue of online learning. This is not an easy question, and it is not intended to trivialize the work and efforts of many on this list, but it is instead a question of inner reflection, or a taking of inventory of one's own life: >> >> How much has each of you done to take measure and fight for meaningful education in the classroom? >> >> Could you have done more? Can you do more? >> >> Then the same for asking yourself how have you integrated technology appropriately into your learning methods and general perezhivanie. >> >> I hope this might provide some further food for thought concerning preservation on the sanctity of learning and instruction in the classroom. >> >> So all this is to reply to you Tom, that in short, the nefarious They can only take control if we let them. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> ps please excuse all typos, which are all made on my own. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 11:26 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> [EXTERNAL] >> >> Hi Annalisa >> >> Thank you for providing the details of your deep and committed background in distance / online learning. Mine is obviously shallow, which must have triggered you and 'Robsub' somewhat. >> >> But my questioning is in the newer context of the Covid19 threats to global society and the solutions being sought to extricate us from them. >> >> Governor Cuomo's conversation with Schmidt to examine solutions to the problems of present coping and future emergence from the pandemic is understandable. Two persons with power and a need to act, discuss what technology (in its widest hard- and software aspects) has to offer. >> >> In a democracy we can assess the solutions they propose and shape them to what we know to be as near to optimal for our society as possible. Your assertion of the efficacy of our agency which Klein seems to deny, >> with her politico-economic caveats. >> >> Schmidt has an evangelism for the potential of technology, but expressed with such restraint - he's no zealot. He also, in the video of the ECNY conversation with Marie-Josee Kravis, sees the lack of 'simplicity' in the three-tier democratic system of the US. He is a CEO with an organisation geared to problem-analysis, solution choices, and operational capability which can be put into action without delaying debate. He expressed no hostility to 'democracy' but as he said, it does not work simply. >> >> Klein reminds us to be wary if not alarmed, not because she is despairing (I believe), but because that direct entrepreneurial drive has profit making as its unavoidable aim. Whatever Schmidt's humanistic feelings, if profit doesn't result from his and his companies actions, they will not survive. That competitive drive is also present in his aspirations for international dominance (see his remarks on the rise of China's technology). >> >> So far, the sort of distance / online learning you have worked on, has been nested in the context of family and (normal) school life. That normality had implicit in it human values, customs and structures, whatever differences of class, race, gender and culture were present. The melding of state and enterprise in a newly-developing novel (5G?)high-tech 'solution' to mediating education presents a situation which need to be examined I believe. And my query, in that 'Kleinian' context was looking for answers from those, like yourself, with wide experience of previous technological 'answers' and their implications for the results within the learner. >> >> I affirm, along with you, the irrepressible resistance and sheer cantankerousness we humans bring to unjust situations. But such fighting back will often be unsuccessful in its aims, when the need to reduce labour time with new technology is driving events - Luddism and machine looms? Our human drive to change and adapt, our use of our agency to create or alter our lives must not be suppressed. But what Klein is reminding us of is just how tilted is the balance of power - the power of the state and behind it, the drive from the vast corporate world, for profit. Our agency is so often undone by the arbitrary intervention of those forces. >> >> Those are the forces which have destroyed what you name the 'sanctity' of teaching and learning. I would name it the basic need for those goals, but we share it. With the need to re-invigorate just such a precious resource, we will continue to fight like hell. Despite their mere humanness, corporations and states at present have greater knowledge and power than 'mere' citizens. My intervention in xmca discussion was really to say "They're looking to take even more control of daily life. >> Within academia, you can analyse how they are making such changes happen and continue to alert the rest of us, if you fear the consequences of their changes." >> >> Best wishes >> Tom >> >> On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 22:29, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >> Hi Tom, >> >> May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? >> >> Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed by SL's prospects. >> >> In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. >> >> Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. >> >> What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. >> >> I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of associations of place with learning. >> >> In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and constrain learning to books. >> >> We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. >> >> I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of learning. >> >> I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged learning venues . Not with grade school. >> >> I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. >> >> I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. >> >> What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!WH1CuWy17t-h406Xf3Bf2oJpxxwqNybYaYxGdDRUfVk9szgKPktlwCCqUklj4uTnG5exQQ$ >> >> It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. >> >> It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. >> >> Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. >> >> If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be integrated with existing models. >> >> If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. >> >> One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and surveillance is a constructive combination. >> >> There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. >> >> This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and introspection, I will never accept that reality. >> >> To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers and pins." >> >> I just do not believe this narrative. >> >> We cannot give up. >> >> Is there a fight ahead? Yes. >> >> Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most definitely, yes. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> [EXTERNAL] >> >> >> Hello Annalisa >> Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. >> What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such learning takes place?'. >> What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes for the perezhivanie of the learner, which shapes her social being and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? >> Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. >> I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. >> >> Kind regards >> Tom >> >> >> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >> Hello Tom, >> >> Thank you for posting the link. >> >> I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended into our lives. >> >> I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. >> >> At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. >> >> Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). >> >> I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. >> >> Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. >> >> She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control the world. >> >> Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to deliberate the way forward. >> >> As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency to decide how to use our tools. >> >> Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. >> >> So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply does not hold water for me. >> >> I hope this might be a little encouraging. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > >> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> [EXTERNAL] >> >> Hello Tom Richardson >> This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat Project" that has just finished its >> planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human development, and theories of "Development >> in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. >> Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. >> The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. >> In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced >> a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most members of this discussion over the years, >> is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). >> >> We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. >> >> Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about for 100 years. >> Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing working models of effective practices that do NOT >> assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. >> >> Thanks for asking. >> mike >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson > wrote: >> Greetings Xmca-ers >> I would like to raise a question. >> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening recently: >> >> >> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks after that article appeared, he described the ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the country had been forced to cobble together during this public health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. >> >> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!WH1CuWy17t-h406Xf3Bf2oJpxxwqNybYaYxGdDRUfVk9szgKPktlwCCqUklj4uTNx-fQwA$ >> >> Just asking >> Tom Richardson >> Middlesbrough UK >> >> >> >> -- >> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu . >> For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . >> For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net . >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200526/93a36b9e/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue May 26 11:35:42 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 11:35:42 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [commfac-g] [commdept-g] Zoom and Gloom: Universities in the Age of COVID-19 - Los Angeles Review of Books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Seems relevant to recent discussions here. mike ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Zilberg, Elana Date: Tue, May 26, 2020 at 11:14 AM Subject: [commfac-g] [commdept-g] Zoom and Gloom: Universities in the Age of COVID-19 - Los Angeles Review of Books To: comm dept An interesting review of two recently published books on higher education from the nearsight of our most recent of current crises?. Zoom and Gloom: Universities in the Age of COVID-19 - Los Angeles Review of Books https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/zoom-and-gloom-universities-in-the-age-of-covid-19/__;!!Mih3wA!W9c9jFugUpBA97PxLATa2uosQCq4___IAITqmrNZ5cSM1FpVtCo5GobZd0qtbzVn$ Los Angeles Review of Books: Zoom and Gloom: Universities in the Age of COVID-19 -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!S_ZOeuKQ08v-EeoTEY0F2QrIMVIhFPJn2l0aSHF32qy42UvBFztCvtlYRlqftNdsgMn3QA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200526/9d9177e2/attachment.html From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Tue May 26 12:31:03 2020 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 20:31:03 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: <78D4E5A7-6661-4F59-A41F-A1FD92995FD6@gmail.com> References: <78D4E5A7-6661-4F59-A41F-A1FD92995FD6@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Henry Thank you for your thoughtful, fact full reply. It would save me continuing to plough through Damasio's well-written but fairly lengthy book 'Looking for Spinoza', if you were to send me a brief personal summary of what he means intellectually for you - (or am I being lazy?) - since it is always illuminating to understand what our thinkers mean to/for our peers. I have not broached Baruch S's work for myself. Best wishes Tom On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 17:09, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Hi Tom, > Thank you for your rich, well-thought-out response to my question. And > thank you for recognizing that I wanted it to be generous. Perhaps a > quibble is that you associate the first stage of Stalinist rule as > capitalist, rather than industrial, as I understand it. I think that?s > important. Stalin?s top-down planning had the same hall marks as Mao?s, > Castro?s and the current North Korean leader. I appreciate your optimism > that any system devised by humans can create human thriving that is not > destructive of of humanity itself. We seem to have boxed ourselves into a > corner by destroying our niche, the world. COVID-19 and climate change, > IMHO, we are all, indvidually and collectively complicit. I hope that we > can get beyond romanticism and cynicism in meeting our fate. I think that > Vygotsky and Spinoza represent what can come of wrestling with open hearts > and clear thinking with our condition. > Henry > > > On May 26, 2020, at 3:09 AM, Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > > Good Morning (GMT+1) Henry > > I'm touched by your mail today. My life experience does not include such > practical engagement as yours, with any of the major social disruptions / > attempts at new organisation, of the C20. > > It seems dismissively facile to criticise amazing historic > re-organisations of social life like the Cuban Revolution, but it is > necessary. Otherwise the same mistakes will happen again and again. > > The political strand which I accept as most accurately analysing > historical and current reality characterises the liberation movements > (particularities, differences, I'm ignoring for sake of quick explanation) > post 1900, as nationalist, and mostly state socialist/capitalist. IE they > are top-down, state directed anti-imperialist/colonialist movements. The > self-organisation and free association of the producers that is the essence > of communist organisation is absent. Often there is some commitment to a > Kautskyan / Stalinist "two stage theory", requiring full > capitalist development to prepare the ground for the next step of > proletarian rule - eg in the South African struggle. We can see where that > has led so far. > > But the analysts I accept, posit that socialism in one country cannot be > created nor sustained while the basis of total global social reproduction > is the money based economy, taken forward by the capital-labour > relationship of commodity production - the so-called 'free market' whose > anarchy ensures an absence of any organised relationship to global human > needs, since it is driven by the *value-based circulation of commodities* dominating > all global production. > > The freedom is that of the individual / joint-stock company in the pursuit > of surplus value. And, yes, Marx, does provide an analysis of "money" which > indicates how a future system of production would/could not be based on the > use of money and therefore wages. > > There is so much literature about this to be investigated, (much of it > written by US authors, extraordinarily, given the Chicago School and the > legacy of McCarthy). I started with Engels 'Socialism, Utopian and > Scientific' which explained in a way that my pro-market, individualist > history teacher could not, why the Anti-Corn Law League had 'won' and the > Chartists had failed. > > Anyway, I am only recycling, from my own limited understanding, the sort > of analysis that the original authors of the literature I value provide in > overwhelming but convincing detail. > > While the way forward towards a future that communists see as essential if > the planet is not to be destroyed, or at least human life on it, is not in > prospect as far as any realist can foresee, at present, the reality of the > Barbarism that Capital brings (together with the technology necessary for > the possibility of real change), is clear every moment in our lives. > > Human resistance and creative answers to apparently insoluble problems, > and the reality that the working class has nothing to gain that sustains > *real* *fulfilling human* life from capital's continuation, sustain my > knowledge that my commitment to moving beyond capitalism, is both essential > and realistic. > > I trust that this attempted answer to your generous question makes > sufficient sense . > > Best wishes > > Tom > > > > On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 22:26, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Hi Tom, >> What is it about ?free market economies? is the cause of wage slavery? Is >> there at least some jiggering of the market that could end ?destructive >> anarchy?? Do we do away with money? And I am serious here. I take it that >> capitalism is the problem, not the market, or money. I was in the doctoral >> program in economics at UC Berkeley during the late 60s. My concentrations >> were comparative economic systems and economic planning. I dropped out >> after only getting a masters degree in economics there, and went to Cuba to >> cut sugar cane with the Venceremos Brigade. I felt strongly Che?s call to >> make the New Man (though women were there too, and check out the film >> ?Lucia?) of that era, but I think that central planning (Castro?) of the >> Cuban economy had a destructive and anarchic side. Castro apologized for >> his mistakes during the year of 10 million tons of sugar cane production, >> but the damage was done. Cuba has been a shining light in some ways for me >> and others, not least the health care workers, the original Doctors Without >> Borders, that beautifully exemplify the new human. >> >> So, really, what do we replace markets and money with? Or is it the >> ?free? part that?s the rub. >> >> Henry >> >> >> On May 25, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Tom Richardson < >> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: >> >> Hello Annalisa >> >> "All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is:" >> >> Since I have suggested neither of the alternatives you state as the only >> way forward, it would surely invalidate your further argument. >> >> But I must admit that the idea of thirty thousand working class families >> and then some, organising to change the wage-slavery employment system >> that they are exploited by, would be a great idea. >> Here's to that day, as the freely associated producers of our social life >> organise to end the destructive anarchy of our present free-market >> economies. >> >> Regards >> >> Tom >> >> >> >> On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 19:58, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >>> Hi Tom and others, >>> >>> >>> I agree that Capitalism is bad, and that it causes wealth and poverty in >>> extremes. Which then creates social injustices that would be much lessened >>> with less economic inequality. >>> >>> >>> I do not think that I ever said (did I?) to ignore the traditional power >>> structures. I said that every day we negotiate the power structures. And >>> when we decide it's not working we can create change. That possibility is >>> always an option, but it demands diligence, discipline, and discovery. >>> >>> >>> All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is: >>> >>> 1. it's futile. Give up. The structures will always be against us. >>> Settle in to your given hand of bad fortune. >>> >>> 2. grab a gun and kill as many people sitting in seats of power (which >>> means the chair of power remains to be replaced by someone else). >>> >>> >>> Forgive me if I reject both those options. >>> >>> >>> As I said, perhaps in another post, the liberal position of citing data >>> and objecting to the existence of that data, isn't going to make power >>> structures change. >>> >>> >>> What would make change is for those 15K-30K families to organize and >>> among themselves decide how and what they can do to make their lot better. >>> >>> >>> It's called organizing. >>> >>> >>> Civil disobedience works because it is civil. >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of Tom Richardson >>> *Sent:* Monday, May 25, 2020 3:25 AM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> Hi Annalisa >>> Good Morning - just a correction to figures about poverty in our town - >>> I should have been more careful,; fortunately the figures from memory were >>> an underestimate rather than an exaggeration: >>> >>> Almost 30,000 children are living in poverty across Teesside - and half >>> are from working families. >>> >>> And stark new statistics reveal that the picture is worst in central >>> Middlesbrough >>> - >>> as hyper-local, official Government data reveals three quarters of all kids >>> in one neighbourhood are living below the breadline. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Tom >>> BoWen >>> >>> >>> On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 22:17, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>> Alas, hello again Tom (& VO's), >>> >>> While I accept your assessment of our differences in approaches and >>> understandings, I do not see that it is obvious that there is no meeting >>> point. >>> >>> For example, innovation exists in science and in art, in business it is >>> entrepreneurship. I believe that there are good things that come from >>> business entrepreneurship, and there are bad things too. We love that art >>> and science are innovative, when they are, but there can be failings there >>> too. >>> >>> The captains of industry who believe they are self-made men, and who >>> believe that anyone who decides for oneself being on the assembly line of >>> the manufacturing floor is only a dumb pawn in a larger game, would be in >>> my estimation the worst that kind of human that entrepreneurship generates. >>> Elon Musk is one example, perhaps. >>> >>> As much as I likely would not want Elon Musk over for dinner, I can >>> admire that he has been able to steward the creation of an electric car in >>> the midst of a sleepwalking auto industry that cannot envision automobiles >>> without a gas-eating combustible engine. >>> >>> At the same time what he gives he takes away: I'm not sure that I can >>> ever get on board a space rocket to inhabit Mars. I actually object to that >>> project because as long as we haven't worked out how to feed everyone on >>> this earthship, we should not be escaping it by polluting another planet, >>> even if, as Carl Sagan told us, there are billions and billions of them out >>> there. >>> >>> "They" in the form of (other they)'s do not have power unless we give >>> them that power. That power is always up for debate every minute, every >>> day, every year. >>> >>> Given that there are now 38 million unemployed in the US (I can't name >>> the numbers elsewhere and I'm sorry about that), that's like the entire >>> population of California being on the dole. It is a significant number, and >>> it may be that many of those people start their own businesses, not because >>> of education or desire, but of necessity. >>> >>> Many of the young and unemployed are educated. That could be a >>> combustible cocktail, depending upon their self-awareness and outward >>> worldview. >>> >>> One strange article in NYT described a scene designer who has been out >>> of work since the health order shutdown, and hasn't received any >>> unemployment yet because she filed in New Jersey, while her partner did >>> because he filed in New York. Then she got an offer to work in a company >>> who is making ... wait for it.... facemasks, so now she is toiling over a >>> machine, sewing facemasks. >>> >>> I don't think I could live in that situation because of the stark irony, >>> if that is a just word for that. I mourn the loss of her creativity, but I >>> hope it is temporary. >>> >>> Now out of necessity, she's had to travel that path. So I can agree with >>> you that because of the government order to shut down business, and because >>> a company who hired her decided to make facemasks, because what other >>> ingenious product would or could one manufacture right now? they have >>> shaped her working life. Have they shaped her social life, though. I mean >>> completely? She still has her contacts on her iPhone, she likely returns >>> home to her partner to cook dinner and search for more work. Her desires >>> and dreams are likely impacted, but has she completely given up? Should she? >>> >>> I am not pro-revolution, only because they create rivers of blood in >>> streets, etc. I'm more of the mind that incremental choices can together >>> create a tipping point of social change. >>> >>> For example, consider the tiny house movement. Or how young people will >>> share resources, or reevaluate buying things, or what they eat. >>> >>> People make the best lemonade only with the best lemons. >>> >>> There is going to have to be a reckoning of having so many unemployed >>> people. It can't be ignored. To just pretend that everyone will be happy >>> with a lower wage job (lower than when the pandemic hit), is only going to >>> drive people to desperate measures. The country will want to put people to >>> work and this could be an opportunity for collective change, for creating >>> meaningful jobs. >>> >>> Because who wants a civil war. >>> >>> So there will have to be some sort of appeasement for the social reality >>> that people must have their basic needs met. The temporary stimulus is a >>> lifeline, but the real economic difficulties will start when people start >>> to return to work, and there are less jobs with the result being there is >>> less money circulating in the economy overall. With interest rates so low, >>> and pumping more money into the economy is only going to raise the prices >>> of things, possibly wages, but not the buying power. >>> >>> People will cut bait from the lives they once had, and simplify. Moving >>> to less crowded cities and towns, returning to live with parents. Perhaps >>> creating cooperatives. One area for discovery with so much time on one's >>> hands is handcrafting. I think there will be a blooming of new businesses >>> that incorporate *real* labor. This may also usher in more vocational >>> training programs. >>> >>> One article I read today discussed the eating of meat, and how it is a >>> destructive social practice including its impact on climate change. Largely >>> that industry depends upon of automation, and now with slaughterhouses >>> being virus hotspots, do you want to trust that the meat you buy is not >>> tainted with COVID? Or that you are forcing a worker into an unsafe work >>> environment and catch the virus? >>> >>> If people were decide to stop eating meat, or reduce even its >>> consumption because it's too expensive, and if the government stops giving >>> subsidies to these agro-corporations, then these polluting companies will >>> fail. That would be great news. >>> >>> Then the writer pointed out that if we returned to diets higher in >>> plant-based food, that would increase demand for real farms, real >>> entrepreneurship and generate jobs, as it takes more people to grow >>> vegetables, than it does to raise pigs or chickens. We would also become >>> healthier as a population. There is already a network of farmer's markets >>> for local produce, so it may mean a growth in that area. >>> >>> I suppose what I'm trying to say is I do not think it is so cut and >>> dried that we are subject to the worst forever. I think with so much time >>> on our hands people are free to organize and decide to help one another in >>> mutual aid. We do not have to rely on traditional power structures, and we >>> do not have to resort to bloody revolutions. >>> >>> Depending upon what you are looking for in life, there is a third way >>> arising. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of Tom Richardson >>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 23, 2020 4:24 AM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> Hello once more Annalisa >>> >>> Our difference of approach to and understanding of the modern state and >>> the production of social life obviously admits of no meeting point as far >>> as I read your astonishingly wide-ranging and impassioned response. >>> >>> Without the simplicity of my reply intending to signal a facile >>> sarcasm, I must bluntly state that I begin from the acceptance that >>> nefarious or not, 'They', in the sense of government and corporations, do >>> have the power to control and shape the organisation of social life. We >>> can, if enough socio-political pressure can be brought to bear through >>> social movements, rebellions, revolts, shift certain aspects of that >>> fashioning of our lives. >>> >>> But at present, the relationship of wage slavery imposed by Capital ,and >>> the society shaped by that relationship, are dominant throughout the life >>> of our planet. >>> >>> Sad at such an impasse, since we both wish the best for humanity >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 21:46, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>> Hi Tom, and VO's of XMCA >>> >>> Concerning your questions about our new normal now that COVID19 is with >>> us and here to stay, I think your guess is as good as anyone's. I am not >>> sure if we as humans have ever been burdened with such an event as this, >>> and at the same time are able to watch the unfolding events and respond (or >>> not respond if you are a stable genius) quickly from the feedback of data, >>> news, anecdotes, and other forms of perception of how the virus is >>> impacting us. >>> >>> What is worth remembering as well, is that epidemiologists have been >>> warning us for decades that a pandemic was a clear an present danger to the >>> way we live and negotiate the modern world. We see in sensurround how right >>> they were. >>> >>> As I consider your question, I have to think that people mow might be >>> sorted into two classes, well at least two classes: >>> >>> >>> 1. People who seem to think the virus is just another flu and once >>> we find a vaccine, all will return to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December >>> Holiday or pre-pandemic time you mark your calendar as before the pandemic >>> hit, which of course depends upon where on the earth you are located). >>> 2. People who seem to think the virus has changed us and there will >>> never be going back to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday...) >>> >>> I suspect the Americans of the neo-conservative persuasion who have been >>> motivated to protest health order social distancing believe that not only >>> this is a conspiracy to control fredom-loving people, but that we should >>> return to Christmas 2019 as soon as possible, they are of Cohort 1. >>> >>> I think Cohort 2 are going to be people who take in the facts and the >>> data and are actively attempting to sort out where do we go from here. I >>> feel confident you are in Cohort 2, as ar most people on this list. >>> >>> Now, as Carol M has pointed out, in a lot of ways our discussion about >>> online learning is a first world concern, for those who have an internet >>> connection that is ubiquitous not only at home, but at school, work, on the >>> bus, on planes, in cafes, and other public gathering spaces, like city >>> halls, or town squares. That's another reason why it's hard to take Klein >>> seriously, in terms of *tone*. >>> >>> I recall reading something from George Lakoff when he indicates that >>> there is a liberal stance that seems to believe that if one objects loudly >>> enough with "sky is falling" rhetoric and then feed out various data, that >>> using this strategy the audience will become motivated to protest in the >>> streets, write letters to congress, run for office, or whatever civil >>> action must be done, and with alacrity. It doesn't work. I do not think >>> being against anything ever "works." I think only being for something >>> works. >>> >>> Let's look at Klein's article as an example. If she were to be >>> rhetorically successful she would outline the problem she identifies (Mr. >>> Schmidt goes to Washington), but instead of all that is wrong, talk about >>> what can be right. Not to say she should agree with Mr. Schmidt and his >>> ways. >>> >>> I feel her article could be a lot heavier on what works with education >>> and how to enhance that further. She does mention how money should b used >>> more for school nurses, smaller classrooms, etc. This is where she could >>> have expanded beautifully into a viable solution to spark everyone's >>> imaginations. But she didn't do that. She is more motivated it seems to >>> mark Mr. Schmidt and his technological minions to masterminding a New World >>> Order that will steal our souls and tether us to the Matrix from now until >>> the end of time. >>> >>> I also feel she would have been more conducive to discourse by writing >>> an open letter to Cuomo and Schmidt, and to invite a response. This is also >>> leading by example to cultivate democratic processes that are near and dear >>> to all of us. Instead she "otherfies" them, and this is also not useful. >>> And I am not saying that as a stance to defend Mr. Schmidt or Gov Cuomo, in >>> any way. >>> >>> So back to your question, I do not think that there is any way we will >>> be extricated from this reality of COVID 19. We will have to pick our >>> stones across the river carefully so that none of us slips and is carried >>> down the rapids. I feel it is more useful to say we are a family of one >>> kind, and all of us have to stay together to make it across. And that all >>> of us deserves a life jacket as a measure of survival because not all of us >>> will get to the other side without getting wet, or falling in. >>> >>> The tension between CEOs and their contempt for the slow-food of >>> democracy is well known. If only they could persuade all of us to eat fast >>> food, then they could take over the world as the next McDonalds, in terms >>> of technological vision, whatever a McDonalds would look like on a screen, >>> as an app, whathaveyou. >>> >>> Unfortunately what seems to elude folks who have not worked in tech, or >>> those who see tech as just another new Ford in the garage, is that >>> technology is always in flux. There is always development of new hardware >>> that needs new software written to use it, so there is a double-quicksand >>> of events upon which technology is founded (and funded) upon. That's what >>> Moore's Law is about. >>> >>> Technology in order to "be itself" must always move fleetingly, like the >>> shark must to breathe. Technology will never be able to last the halls of >>> government. For that reason, any rendition of technology in government (and >>> school systems for that matter) will be like bad combovers that are meant >>> to convince us that we are now more attractive and appealing (not meaning >>> to offend those who live by their combovers...) >>> >>> Where I feel technology could best serve us is to help create grassroots >>> democracy tools, to support what we know is possible and could even >>> threaten the basis for representative democracy and bring it closer to a >>> straight agora democracy. >>> >>> Some might call this anarchy, and I could argue along the lines of David >>> Graeber that anarchy is a more pure form of democracy practiced in all >>> "primitive" or "ancient" cultures, it's not a perfect fit, and I intend to >>> make that reference loosely. My point is to say there should be what David >>> K calls involution of what government is, to what government was, and to >>> supplant that, or rather what causes those parts to be pushed to the >>> margins is to imagine a government where there is mor connection to >>> agora-like venues where one person speaking in a Zoom-like frame is of >>> equal stature of any other person speaking in the frame. One can sort of >>> imagine this with the Zoom-empowered senate hearings which I watched for a >>> while on the NYT front page. It was really strange to me. I suppose the >>> danger is that we get to hear Sally Mc? from Arizona use her time to blame >>> the Chinese for the virus, etc, for more time that we would like. But >>> that's democracy. >>> >>> So one fallout could be that grade-school kids and their resulting >>> perezhivanie from Zoom-based classrooms, will adopt the tool for political >>> discussions as adults. Might that be a good thing? >>> >>> Maybe. >>> >>> At the same time, do you remember a book that came out in the mid90s >>> called "Silicon Snake Oil"? This is yet another phenomenon of technology, >>> that people oozing charisma will claw their way to the microphone and pitch >>> an idea about the next vaporware, who will then make unsubstantiated >>> promises and claims directed to feed our fantasies and dreams, and who will >>> then abscond with all the money, only to request not to look at the man >>> behind the green curtain, or if pulled by the ear into a senate hearing >>> will say "I thought it was a good idea at the time." etc. >>> >>> I think that is the view of Klein about all technology, and there are >>> merits in that, but there are also other ways to think about it. >>> >>> This article about Marc Benioff in Wired recently discusses about the >>> social entrepreneurship of his wealth: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.wired.com/story/gospel-of-wealth-according-to-marc-benioff/__;!!Mih3wA!W28GBEL0aIq1NgmDiOlx-TmRsWu4eL5nX1ltx94nkWToxMToNF4HPASRw-GvuZbxXOlSMQ$ >>> >>> Who by they way now owns the magazine Time, the way Jeff Bezos bought >>> the WaPo, and Lauren Jobs bought The Altlantic, and Pierre Omidyar funded >>> The Intercept. >>> >>> I do invite, as much as you can stomach, anyway, for any educators or >>> other members of our vibrant list to make regular reading of Wired >>> Magazine, which is a far more interesting read on technology than something >>> like Fast Company. I encourage this reading, if only to know the enemy, as >>> it were. Wired articles are far more nuanced and sophisticated than when >>> the magazine first got off the ground in the early 90s. I find reading it >>> helps to connect some dots for those who do not consume technology culture >>> all the time. Just pick and choose what you are curious about. >>> >>> We must become familiar with the vernacular of technology if we want a >>> hand in the game of how it plays in education, our stomping grounds. This >>> will require effort on our part. That is not to say we must adopt all the >>> shiny new toys. But we can be like a Consumer Report for education, and >>> evaluate and measure the good the bad and the ugly of technology and its >>> use in the edu sphere. >>> >>> We cannot sit on our laurels and wait for someone else to decide for us >>> how technology will be deployed. That stance is what the mythology of >>> inevitable technology rests and self-perpetuates. >>> >>> We must be more tech literate, and we must be the first to coin words >>> and how they manifest in edu venues. What works what doesn't. I don't see >>> any other way to fight back and to keep control of the educational >>> narrative, where of course we want to hardwire zopeds, manifest and lead >>> critical and nourishing perezhivanie, and model by example sterling >>> mediated learning experiences for students and teachers. >>> >>> What other projects can there be? >>> >>> For me, this is "fighting back" because it makes the sort of shark-like >>> entrepreneur recede for a time (as they will always be looking for a way >>> into edu's tax coffers), because we are successful getting education right. >>> >>> I do not accept that entreprenuership is what took the sanctity from >>> teaching and learning. But that's an argument to be made. I feel it is only >>> one side of the argument. >>> >>> Once I had an male acquaintance tell me that one reason women are in >>> inferior roles is because they let this happen to them. As you might >>> imagine, I had a real hard time with that argument and I had to clench my >>> jaw to now spew various vitriol upon him. But after I thought about it, in >>> a narrow sense he is not wrong because not it is true that enough women in >>> history identified the value to struggle for rights even if they would not >>> see equality in their own lifetimes. There are many explanations for why >>> that did not happen, that are not facile to depict. But then I also had to >>> think of how much women's struggles have succeeded because they did decide >>> to not let this happen to them anymore. But now women are learning in the >>> US, anyway, that nothing fought for is a permanent fixture, and so we must >>> become resigned to the perpetual struggle for equality, as all marginalized >>> people must. >>> >>> So now I direct this to our context of education in the venue of online >>> learning. This is not an easy question, and it is not intended to >>> trivialize the work and efforts of many on this list, but it is instead a >>> question of inner reflection, or a taking of inventory of one's own life: >>> >>> How much has each of you done to take measure and fight for meaningful >>> education in the classroom? >>> >>> Could you have done more? Can you do more? >>> >>> Then the same for asking yourself how have you integrated technology >>> appropriately into your learning methods and general perezhivanie. >>> >>> I hope this might provide some further food for thought concerning >>> preservation on the sanctity of learning and instruction in the classroom. >>> >>> So all this is to reply to you Tom, that in short, the nefarious They >>> can only take control if we let them. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> ps please excuse all typos, which are all made on my own. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of Tom Richardson >>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 11:26 AM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> Hi Annalisa >>> >>> Thank you for providing the details of your deep and committed >>> background in distance / online learning. Mine is obviously shallow, which >>> must have triggered you and 'Robsub' somewhat. >>> >>> But my questioning is in the newer context of the Covid19 threats to >>> global society and the solutions being sought to extricate us from them. >>> >>> Governor Cuomo's conversation with Schmidt to examine solutions to the >>> problems of present coping and future emergence from the pandemic is >>> understandable. Two persons with power and a need to act, discuss what >>> technology (in its widest hard- and software aspects) has to offer. >>> >>> In a democracy we can assess the solutions they propose and shape them >>> to what we know to be as near to optimal for our society as possible. Your >>> assertion of the efficacy of our agency which Klein seems to deny, >>> with her politico-economic caveats. >>> >>> Schmidt has an evangelism for the potential of technology, but expressed >>> with such restraint - he's no zealot. He also, in the video of the ECNY >>> conversation with Marie-Josee Kravis, sees the lack of 'simplicity' in the >>> three-tier democratic system of the US. He is a CEO with an organisation >>> geared to problem-analysis, solution choices, and operational capability >>> which can be put into action without delaying debate. He expressed no >>> hostility to 'democracy' but as he said, it does not work simply. >>> >>> Klein reminds us to be wary if not alarmed, not because she is >>> despairing (I believe), but because that direct entrepreneurial drive has >>> profit making as its unavoidable aim. Whatever Schmidt's humanistic >>> feelings, if profit doesn't result from his and his companies actions, they >>> will not survive. That competitive drive is also present in his aspirations >>> for international dominance (see his remarks on the rise of China's >>> technology). >>> >>> So far, the sort of distance / online learning you have worked on, has >>> been nested in the context of family and (normal) school life. That >>> normality had implicit in it human values, customs and structures, whatever >>> differences of class, race, gender and culture were present. The melding of >>> state and enterprise in a newly-developing novel (5G?)high-tech 'solution' >>> to mediating education presents a situation which need to be examined I >>> believe. And my query, in that 'Kleinian' context was looking for answers >>> from those, like yourself, with wide experience of previous technological >>> 'answers' and their implications for the results within the learner. >>> >>> I affirm, along with you, the irrepressible resistance and sheer >>> cantankerousness we humans bring to unjust situations. But such fighting >>> back will often be unsuccessful in its aims, when the need to reduce labour >>> time with new technology is driving events - Luddism and machine looms? Our >>> human drive to change and adapt, our use of our agency to create or alter >>> our lives must not be suppressed. But what Klein is reminding us of is just >>> how tilted is the balance of power - the power of the state and behind it, >>> the drive from the vast corporate world, for profit. Our agency is so often >>> undone by the arbitrary intervention of those forces. >>> >>> Those are the forces which have destroyed what you name the 'sanctity' >>> of teaching and learning. I would name it the basic need for those goals, >>> but we share it. With the need to re-invigorate just such a precious >>> resource, we will continue to fight like hell. Despite their mere >>> humanness, corporations and states at present have greater knowledge and >>> power than 'mere' citizens. My intervention in xmca discussion was really >>> to say "They're looking to take even more control of daily life. >>> Within academia, you can analyse how they are making such changes happen >>> and continue to alert the rest of us, if you fear the consequences of >>> their changes." >>> >>> Best wishes >>> Tom >>> >>> On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 22:29, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>> Hi Tom, >>> >>> May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? >>> >>> Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We >>> looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, >>> once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always >>> a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed >>> by SL's prospects. >>> >>> In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, >>> I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that >>> students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one >>> another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological >>> fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would >>> ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. >>> >>> Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like >>> looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. >>> Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. >>> >>> What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of >>> place, which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot >>> of open space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but >>> it was perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. >>> >>> I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators >>> already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online >>> learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers >>> during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of >>> associations of place with learning. >>> >>> In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as >>> the AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, >>> drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in >>> order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye >>> coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing >>> abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and >>> constrain learning to books. >>> >>> We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We >>> must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. >>> >>> I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which >>> the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts >>> of learning. >>> >>> I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but >>> out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for >>> quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged >>> learning venues . Not with grade school. >>> >>> I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for >>> grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally >>> studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, >>> although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon >>> it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess >>> that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because >>> parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. >>> >>> I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, >>> nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. >>> >>> What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is >>> childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own >>> families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!W28GBEL0aIq1NgmDiOlx-TmRsWu4eL5nX1ltx94nkWToxMToNF4HPASRw-GvuZYbDdg7ZQ$ >>> >>> >>> It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a >>> right, not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the >>> pandemic may also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom >>> education and why we must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. >>> >>> It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the >>> classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances >>> that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. >>> >>> Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by >>> the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that >>> he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and >>> that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. >>> People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, >>> etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it >>> the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of >>> learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. >>> >>> If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to >>> already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support >>> well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be >>> integrated with existing models. >>> >>> If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another >>> way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where >>> money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and >>> wasteful. >>> >>> One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online >>> learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may >>> also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or >>> riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and >>> surveillance is a constructive combination. >>> >>> There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more >>> appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet >>> words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must >>> better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite >>> behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown >>> interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from >>> what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. >>> >>> This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon >>> a mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and >>> introspection, I will never accept that reality. >>> >>> To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say >>> "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers >>> and pins." >>> >>> I just do not believe this narrative. >>> >>> We cannot give up. >>> >>> Is there a fight ahead? Yes. >>> >>> Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most >>> definitely, yes. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of Tom Richardson >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> >>> Hello Annalisa >>> Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost >>> none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of >>> human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour >>> acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. >>> >>> - What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment >>> created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the >>> widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such >>> learning takes place?'. >>> - What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes >>> for the *perezhivanie *of the learner, which shapes her social >>> being and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', >>> 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? >>> >>> Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't >>> yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp >>> what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. >>> I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is >>> within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. >>> >>> Kind regards >>> Tom >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>> Hello Tom, >>> >>> Thank you for posting the link. >>> >>> I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly >>> dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is >>> not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking >>> pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended >>> into our lives. >>> >>> I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It >>> reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and >>> resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has >>> become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. >>> >>> At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for >>> power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. >>> >>> Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill >>> Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as >>> the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment >>> facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include >>> Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding >>> flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his >>> billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). >>> >>> I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to >>> encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee >>> to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that >>> coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. >>> >>> Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general >>> problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling >>> perspective. >>> >>> She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of >>> COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to >>> control the world. >>> >>> Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness >>> of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. >>> Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is >>> the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to >>> deliberate the way forward. >>> >>> As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to >>> control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, >>> or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in >>> ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be >>> construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency >>> to decide how to use our tools. >>> >>> Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. >>> Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for >>> disabled children with his goals for flattening the classroom into >>> two-dimensional online learning screens. He will never be able to walk >>> around that law. >>> >>> So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply >>> does not hold water for me. >>> >>> I hope this might be a little encouraging. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of mike cole >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> Hello Tom Richardson >>> This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat >>> Project" that has just finished its >>> planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human >>> development, and theories of "Development >>> in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced >>> by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. >>> Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as >>> to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. >>> The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of >>> essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. >>> In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the >>> most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced >>> a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of >>> most members of this discussion over the years, >>> is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations >>> have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting >>> a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). >>> >>> We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social >>> science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp >>> speed and its invisible. >>> >>> Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about >>> for 100 years. >>> Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start >>> providing working models of effective practices that do NOT >>> assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. >>> >>> Thanks for asking. >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson < >>> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Greetings Xmca-ers >>> I would like to raise a question. >>> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major >>> questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, >>> democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international >>> competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan >>> approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to >>> these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been >>> happening recently: >>> >>> >>> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks >>> after that article appeared, he described >>> the >>> ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the >>> country had been forced to cobble together during this public health >>> emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. >>> >>> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do >>> kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better >>> remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? >>> will help kids learn better.? " >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!W28GBEL0aIq1NgmDiOlx-TmRsWu4eL5nX1ltx94nkWToxMToNF4HPASRw-GvuZZ29Ujyvg$ >>> >>> >>> >>> Just asking >>> Tom Richardson >>> Middlesbrough UK >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what >>> fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. >>> For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>> For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net >>> >>> . >>> >>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200526/a34dac78/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue May 26 14:26:28 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 15:26:28 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: <78D4E5A7-6661-4F59-A41F-A1FD92995FD6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <29749880-98FE-47D7-84E1-841BB6B9B6C5@gmail.com> Hi Tom, No problem enabling your laziness with my shallow reading of Spinzoa. I confess that I have read nothing directly from Spinoza, but have read about his philosphy and about his life. It?s been a while since I read Looking for Spinoza: Joy Sorrow and the Feeling Brain. I am looking at the book now and am amazed with how much highlighting there is and how little of it I remember in detail. What got me into it was the distinction between emotions and feelings. Damasio is a neuroscientist, and the book are full of the neural correlates of affective states, being the ?easy? problem of consciousness. The ?hard? problem of explaining the reason any arrangements at all of matter can possibly result in consciousness is not explained. What got me into it was the distinction between emotions and feelings. Damasio associates emotions (fear, anger, surprise, disgust, sadness and happiness) with primal parts of the brain connected to homeostasis of the organism. Emotions are evoked prior to the more narrative experience of feelings. To tell the truth, I am still not entirely clear on the distinction, largely because he explains the difference through case studies of people who have suffered damage to different parts of the brain, losing me. Maybe I got it at the time, but looking through the book now, it?s not so clear. One interesting thing is that we can have social emotions, which means homeostasis is not just internal to the human organism. Anyway, the book is worth digging through. Hope that helps a little. Whew! Henry > On May 26, 2020, at 1:31 PM, Tom Richardson wrote: > > > Hi Henry > Thank you for your thoughtful, fact full reply. > > It would save me continuing to plough through Damasio's well-written but fairly lengthy book 'Looking for Spinoza', if you were to send me a brief personal summary of what he means intellectually for you - (or am I being lazy?) - since it is always illuminating to understand what our thinkers mean to/for our peers. I have not broached Baruch S's work for myself. > > Best wishes > Tom > > On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 17:09, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > Hi Tom, > Thank you for your rich, well-thought-out response to my question. And thank you for recognizing that I wanted it to be generous. Perhaps a quibble is that you associate the first stage of Stalinist rule as capitalist, rather than industrial, as I understand it. I think that?s important. Stalin?s top-down planning had the same hall marks as Mao?s, Castro?s and the current North Korean leader. I appreciate your optimism that any system devised by humans can create human thriving that is not destructive of of humanity itself. We seem to have boxed ourselves into a corner by destroying our niche, the world. COVID-19 and climate change, IMHO, we are all, indvidually and collectively complicit. I hope that we can get beyond romanticism and cynicism in meeting our fate. I think that Vygotsky and Spinoza represent what can come of wrestling with open hearts and clear thinking with our condition. > Henry > > >> On May 26, 2020, at 3:09 AM, Tom Richardson > wrote: >> >> Good Morning (GMT+1) Henry >> >> I'm touched by your mail today. My life experience does not include such practical engagement as yours, with any of the major social disruptions / attempts at new organisation, of the C20. >> >> It seems dismissively facile to criticise amazing historic re-organisations of social life like the Cuban Revolution, but it is necessary. Otherwise the same mistakes will happen again and again. >> >> The political strand which I accept as most accurately analysing historical and current reality characterises the liberation movements (particularities, differences, I'm ignoring for sake of quick explanation) post 1900, as nationalist, and mostly state socialist/capitalist. IE they are top-down, state directed anti-imperialist/colonialist movements. The self-organisation and free association of the producers that is the essence of communist organisation is absent. Often there is some commitment to a Kautskyan / Stalinist "two stage theory", requiring full capitalist development to prepare the ground for the next step of proletarian rule - eg in the South African struggle. We can see where that has led so far. >> >> But the analysts I accept, posit that socialism in one country cannot be created nor sustained while the basis of total global social reproduction is the money based economy, taken forward by the capital-labour relationship of commodity production - the so-called 'free market' whose anarchy ensures an absence of any organised relationship to global human needs, since it is driven by the value-based circulation of commodities dominating all global production. >> >> The freedom is that of the individual / joint-stock company in the pursuit of surplus value. And, yes, Marx, does provide an analysis of "money" which indicates how a future system of production would/could not be based on the use of money and therefore wages. >> >> There is so much literature about this to be investigated, (much of it written by US authors, extraordinarily, given the Chicago School and the legacy of McCarthy). I started with Engels 'Socialism, Utopian and Scientific' which explained in a way that my pro-market, individualist history teacher could not, why the Anti-Corn Law League had 'won' and the Chartists had failed. >> >> Anyway, I am only recycling, from my own limited understanding, the sort of analysis that the original authors of the literature I value provide in overwhelming but convincing detail. >> >> While the way forward towards a future that communists see as essential if the planet is not to be destroyed, or at least human life on it, is not in prospect as far as any realist can foresee, at present, the reality of the Barbarism that Capital brings (together with the technology necessary for the possibility of real change), is clear every moment in our lives. >> >> Human resistance and creative answers to apparently insoluble problems, and the reality that the working class has nothing to gain that sustains real fulfilling human life from capital's continuation, sustain my knowledge that my commitment to moving beyond capitalism, is both essential and realistic. >> >> I trust that this attempted answer to your generous question makes sufficient sense . >> >> Best wishes >> >> Tom >> >> >> >> On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 22:26, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: >> Hi Tom, >> What is it about ?free market economies? is the cause of wage slavery? Is there at least some jiggering of the market that could end ?destructive anarchy?? Do we do away with money? And I am serious here. I take it that capitalism is the problem, not the market, or money. I was in the doctoral program in economics at UC Berkeley during the late 60s. My concentrations were comparative economic systems and economic planning. I dropped out after only getting a masters degree in economics there, and went to Cuba to cut sugar cane with the Venceremos Brigade. I felt strongly Che?s call to make the New Man (though women were there too, and check out the film ?Lucia?) of that era, but I think that central planning (Castro?) of the Cuban economy had a destructive and anarchic side. Castro apologized for his mistakes during the year of 10 million tons of sugar cane production, but the damage was done. Cuba has been a shining light in some ways for me and others, not least the health care workers, the original Doctors Without Borders, that beautifully exemplify the new human. >> >> So, really, what do we replace markets and money with? Or is it the ?free? part that?s the rub. >> >> Henry >> >> >>> On May 25, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Tom Richardson > wrote: >>> >>> Hello Annalisa >>> >>> "All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is:" >>> >>> Since I have suggested neither of the alternatives you state as the only way forward, it would surely invalidate your further argument. >>> >>> But I must admit that the idea of thirty thousand working class families and then some, organising to change the wage-slavery employment system that they are exploited by, would be a great idea. >>> Here's to that day, as the freely associated producers of our social life organise to end the destructive anarchy of our present free-market economies. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 19:58, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>> Hi Tom and others, >>> >>> >>> >>> I agree that Capitalism is bad, and that it causes wealth and poverty in extremes. Which then creates social injustices that would be much lessened with less economic inequality. >>> >>> >>> >>> I do not think that I ever said (did I?) to ignore the traditional power structures. I said that every day we negotiate the power structures. And when we decide it's not working we can create change. That possibility is always an option, but it demands diligence, discipline, and discovery. >>> >>> >>> >>> All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is: >>> >>> 1. it's futile. Give up. The structures will always be against us. Settle in to your given hand of bad fortune. >>> >>> 2. grab a gun and kill as many people sitting in seats of power (which means the chair of power remains to be replaced by someone else). >>> >>> >>> >>> Forgive me if I reject both those options. >>> >>> >>> >>> As I said, perhaps in another post, the liberal position of citing data and objecting to the existence of that data, isn't going to make power structures change. >>> >>> >>> >>> What would make change is for those 15K-30K families to organize and among themselves decide how and what they can do to make their lot better. >>> >>> >>> >>> It's called organizing. >>> >>> >>> >>> Civil disobedience works because it is civil. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >>> Sent: Monday, May 25, 2020 3:25 AM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>> >>> [EXTERNAL] >>> >>> Hi Annalisa >>> Good Morning - just a correction to figures about poverty in our town - I should have been more careful,; fortunately the figures from memory were an underestimate rather than an exaggeration: >>> Almost 30,000 children are living in poverty across Teesside - and half are from working families. >>> >>> And stark new statistics reveal that the picture is worst in central Middlesbrough - as hyper-local, official Government data reveals three quarters of all kids in one neighbourhood are living below the breadline. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> >>> BoWen >>> >>> >>> On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 22:17, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>> Alas, hello again Tom (& VO's), >>> >>> While I accept your assessment of our differences in approaches and understandings, I do not see that it is obvious that there is no meeting point. >>> >>> For example, innovation exists in science and in art, in business it is entrepreneurship. I believe that there are good things that come from business entrepreneurship, and there are bad things too. We love that art and science are innovative, when they are, but there can be failings there too. >>> >>> The captains of industry who believe they are self-made men, and who believe that anyone who decides for oneself being on the assembly line of the manufacturing floor is only a dumb pawn in a larger game, would be in my estimation the worst that kind of human that entrepreneurship generates. Elon Musk is one example, perhaps. >>> >>> As much as I likely would not want Elon Musk over for dinner, I can admire that he has been able to steward the creation of an electric car in the midst of a sleepwalking auto industry that cannot envision automobiles without a gas-eating combustible engine. >>> >>> At the same time what he gives he takes away: I'm not sure that I can ever get on board a space rocket to inhabit Mars. I actually object to that project because as long as we haven't worked out how to feed everyone on this earthship, we should not be escaping it by polluting another planet, even if, as Carl Sagan told us, there are billions and billions of them out there. >>> >>> "They" in the form of (other they)'s do not have power unless we give them that power. That power is always up for debate every minute, every day, every year. >>> >>> Given that there are now 38 million unemployed in the US (I can't name the numbers elsewhere and I'm sorry about that), that's like the entire population of California being on the dole. It is a significant number, and it may be that many of those people start their own businesses, not because of education or desire, but of necessity. >>> >>> Many of the young and unemployed are educated. That could be a combustible cocktail, depending upon their self-awareness and outward worldview. >>> >>> One strange article in NYT described a scene designer who has been out of work since the health order shutdown, and hasn't received any unemployment yet because she filed in New Jersey, while her partner did because he filed in New York. Then she got an offer to work in a company who is making ... wait for it.... facemasks, so now she is toiling over a machine, sewing facemasks. >>> >>> I don't think I could live in that situation because of the stark irony, if that is a just word for that. I mourn the loss of her creativity, but I hope it is temporary. >>> >>> Now out of necessity, she's had to travel that path. So I can agree with you that because of the government order to shut down business, and because a company who hired her decided to make facemasks, because what other ingenious product would or could one manufacture right now? they have shaped her working life. Have they shaped her social life, though. I mean completely? She still has her contacts on her iPhone, she likely returns home to her partner to cook dinner and search for more work. Her desires and dreams are likely impacted, but has she completely given up? Should she? >>> >>> I am not pro-revolution, only because they create rivers of blood in streets, etc. I'm more of the mind that incremental choices can together create a tipping point of social change. >>> >>> For example, consider the tiny house movement. Or how young people will share resources, or reevaluate buying things, or what they eat. >>> >>> People make the best lemonade only with the best lemons. >>> >>> There is going to have to be a reckoning of having so many unemployed people. It can't be ignored. To just pretend that everyone will be happy with a lower wage job (lower than when the pandemic hit), is only going to drive people to desperate measures. The country will want to put people to work and this could be an opportunity for collective change, for creating meaningful jobs. >>> >>> Because who wants a civil war. >>> >>> So there will have to be some sort of appeasement for the social reality that people must have their basic needs met. The temporary stimulus is a lifeline, but the real economic difficulties will start when people start to return to work, and there are less jobs with the result being there is less money circulating in the economy overall. With interest rates so low, and pumping more money into the economy is only going to raise the prices of things, possibly wages, but not the buying power. >>> >>> People will cut bait from the lives they once had, and simplify. Moving to less crowded cities and towns, returning to live with parents. Perhaps creating cooperatives. One area for discovery with so much time on one's hands is handcrafting. I think there will be a blooming of new businesses that incorporate *real* labor. This may also usher in more vocational training programs. >>> >>> One article I read today discussed the eating of meat, and how it is a destructive social practice including its impact on climate change. Largely that industry depends upon of automation, and now with slaughterhouses being virus hotspots, do you want to trust that the meat you buy is not tainted with COVID? Or that you are forcing a worker into an unsafe work environment and catch the virus? >>> >>> If people were decide to stop eating meat, or reduce even its consumption because it's too expensive, and if the government stops giving subsidies to these agro-corporations, then these polluting companies will fail. That would be great news. >>> >>> Then the writer pointed out that if we returned to diets higher in plant-based food, that would increase demand for real farms, real entrepreneurship and generate jobs, as it takes more people to grow vegetables, than it does to raise pigs or chickens. We would also become healthier as a population. There is already a network of farmer's markets for local produce, so it may mean a growth in that area. >>> >>> I suppose what I'm trying to say is I do not think it is so cut and dried that we are subject to the worst forever. I think with so much time on our hands people are free to organize and decide to help one another in mutual aid. We do not have to rely on traditional power structures, and we do not have to resort to bloody revolutions. >>> >>> Depending upon what you are looking for in life, there is a third way arising. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >>> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 4:24 AM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>> >>> [EXTERNAL] >>> >>> Hello once more Annalisa >>> >>> Our difference of approach to and understanding of the modern state and the production of social life obviously admits of no meeting point as far as I read your astonishingly wide-ranging and impassioned response. >>> >>> Without the simplicity of my reply intending to signal a facile sarcasm, I must bluntly state that I begin from the acceptance that nefarious or not, 'They', in the sense of government and corporations, do have the power to control and shape the organisation of social life. We can, if enough socio-political pressure can be brought to bear through social movements, rebellions, revolts, shift certain aspects of that fashioning of our lives. >>> >>> But at present, the relationship of wage slavery imposed by Capital ,and the society shaped by that relationship, are dominant throughout the life of our planet. >>> >>> Sad at such an impasse, since we both wish the best for humanity >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 21:46, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>> Hi Tom, and VO's of XMCA >>> >>> Concerning your questions about our new normal now that COVID19 is with us and here to stay, I think your guess is as good as anyone's. I am not sure if we as humans have ever been burdened with such an event as this, and at the same time are able to watch the unfolding events and respond (or not respond if you are a stable genius) quickly from the feedback of data, news, anecdotes, and other forms of perception of how the virus is impacting us. >>> >>> What is worth remembering as well, is that epidemiologists have been warning us for decades that a pandemic was a clear an present danger to the way we live and negotiate the modern world. We see in sensurround how right they were. >>> >>> As I consider your question, I have to think that people mow might be sorted into two classes, well at least two classes: >>> >>> People who seem to think the virus is just another flu and once we find a vaccine, all will return to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday or pre-pandemic time you mark your calendar as before the pandemic hit, which of course depends upon where on the earth you are located). >>> People who seem to think the virus has changed us and there will never be going back to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday...) >>> I suspect the Americans of the neo-conservative persuasion who have been motivated to protest health order social distancing believe that not only this is a conspiracy to control fredom-loving people, but that we should return to Christmas 2019 as soon as possible, they are of Cohort 1. >>> >>> I think Cohort 2 are going to be people who take in the facts and the data and are actively attempting to sort out where do we go from here. I feel confident you are in Cohort 2, as ar most people on this list. >>> >>> Now, as Carol M has pointed out, in a lot of ways our discussion about online learning is a first world concern, for those who have an internet connection that is ubiquitous not only at home, but at school, work, on the bus, on planes, in cafes, and other public gathering spaces, like city halls, or town squares. That's another reason why it's hard to take Klein seriously, in terms of *tone*. >>> >>> I recall reading something from George Lakoff when he indicates that there is a liberal stance that seems to believe that if one objects loudly enough with "sky is falling" rhetoric and then feed out various data, that using this strategy the audience will become motivated to protest in the streets, write letters to congress, run for office, or whatever civil action must be done, and with alacrity. It doesn't work. I do not think being against anything ever "works." I think only being for something works. >>> >>> Let's look at Klein's article as an example. If she were to be rhetorically successful she would outline the problem she identifies (Mr. Schmidt goes to Washington), but instead of all that is wrong, talk about what can be right. Not to say she should agree with Mr. Schmidt and his ways. >>> >>> I feel her article could be a lot heavier on what works with education and how to enhance that further. She does mention how money should b used more for school nurses, smaller classrooms, etc. This is where she could have expanded beautifully into a viable solution to spark everyone's imaginations. But she didn't do that. She is more motivated it seems to mark Mr. Schmidt and his technological minions to masterminding a New World Order that will steal our souls and tether us to the Matrix from now until the end of time. >>> >>> I also feel she would have been more conducive to discourse by writing an open letter to Cuomo and Schmidt, and to invite a response. This is also leading by example to cultivate democratic processes that are near and dear to all of us. Instead she "otherfies" them, and this is also not useful. And I am not saying that as a stance to defend Mr. Schmidt or Gov Cuomo, in any way. >>> >>> So back to your question, I do not think that there is any way we will be extricated from this reality of COVID 19. We will have to pick our stones across the river carefully so that none of us slips and is carried down the rapids. I feel it is more useful to say we are a family of one kind, and all of us have to stay together to make it across. And that all of us deserves a life jacket as a measure of survival because not all of us will get to the other side without getting wet, or falling in. >>> >>> The tension between CEOs and their contempt for the slow-food of democracy is well known. If only they could persuade all of us to eat fast food, then they could take over the world as the next McDonalds, in terms of technological vision, whatever a McDonalds would look like on a screen, as an app, whathaveyou. >>> >>> Unfortunately what seems to elude folks who have not worked in tech, or those who see tech as just another new Ford in the garage, is that technology is always in flux. There is always development of new hardware that needs new software written to use it, so there is a double-quicksand of events upon which technology is founded (and funded) upon. That's what Moore's Law is about. >>> >>> Technology in order to "be itself" must always move fleetingly, like the shark must to breathe. Technology will never be able to last the halls of government. For that reason, any rendition of technology in government (and school systems for that matter) will be like bad combovers that are meant to convince us that we are now more attractive and appealing (not meaning to offend those who live by their combovers...) >>> >>> Where I feel technology could best serve us is to help create grassroots democracy tools, to support what we know is possible and could even threaten the basis for representative democracy and bring it closer to a straight agora democracy. >>> >>> Some might call this anarchy, and I could argue along the lines of David Graeber that anarchy is a more pure form of democracy practiced in all "primitive" or "ancient" cultures, it's not a perfect fit, and I intend to make that reference loosely. My point is to say there should be what David K calls involution of what government is, to what government was, and to supplant that, or rather what causes those parts to be pushed to the margins is to imagine a government where there is mor connection to agora-like venues where one person speaking in a Zoom-like frame is of equal stature of any other person speaking in the frame. One can sort of imagine this with the Zoom-empowered senate hearings which I watched for a while on the NYT front page. It was really strange to me. I suppose the danger is that we get to hear Sally Mc? from Arizona use her time to blame the Chinese for the virus, etc, for more time that we would like. But that's democracy. >>> >>> So one fallout could be that grade-school kids and their resulting perezhivanie from Zoom-based classrooms, will adopt the tool for political discussions as adults. Might that be a good thing? >>> >>> Maybe. >>> >>> At the same time, do you remember a book that came out in the mid90s called "Silicon Snake Oil"? This is yet another phenomenon of technology, that people oozing charisma will claw their way to the microphone and pitch an idea about the next vaporware, who will then make unsubstantiated promises and claims directed to feed our fantasies and dreams, and who will then abscond with all the money, only to request not to look at the man behind the green curtain, or if pulled by the ear into a senate hearing will say "I thought it was a good idea at the time." etc. >>> >>> I think that is the view of Klein about all technology, and there are merits in that, but there are also other ways to think about it. >>> >>> This article about Marc Benioff in Wired recently discusses about the social entrepreneurship of his wealth:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.wired.com/story/gospel-of-wealth-according-to-marc-benioff/__;!!Mih3wA!RTL6R4v5clcUPqzqia4YDnlySCGo6vKuE7uIMZ_ulAc16g1whGf1KOPGYtu6Rrv_XXqulA$ >>> Who by they way now owns the magazine Time, the way Jeff Bezos bought the WaPo, and Lauren Jobs bought The Altlantic, and Pierre Omidyar funded The Intercept. >>> >>> I do invite, as much as you can stomach, anyway, for any educators or other members of our vibrant list to make regular reading of Wired Magazine, which is a far more interesting read on technology than something like Fast Company. I encourage this reading, if only to know the enemy, as it were. Wired articles are far more nuanced and sophisticated than when the magazine first got off the ground in the early 90s. I find reading it helps to connect some dots for those who do not consume technology culture all the time. Just pick and choose what you are curious about. >>> >>> We must become familiar with the vernacular of technology if we want a hand in the game of how it plays in education, our stomping grounds. This will require effort on our part. That is not to say we must adopt all the shiny new toys. But we can be like a Consumer Report for education, and evaluate and measure the good the bad and the ugly of technology and its use in the edu sphere. >>> >>> We cannot sit on our laurels and wait for someone else to decide for us how technology will be deployed. That stance is what the mythology of inevitable technology rests and self-perpetuates. >>> >>> We must be more tech literate, and we must be the first to coin words and how they manifest in edu venues. What works what doesn't. I don't see any other way to fight back and to keep control of the educational narrative, where of course we want to hardwire zopeds, manifest and lead critical and nourishing perezhivanie, and model by example sterling mediated learning experiences for students and teachers. >>> >>> What other projects can there be? >>> >>> For me, this is "fighting back" because it makes the sort of shark-like entrepreneur recede for a time (as they will always be looking for a way into edu's tax coffers), because we are successful getting education right. >>> >>> I do not accept that entreprenuership is what took the sanctity from teaching and learning. But that's an argument to be made. I feel it is only one side of the argument. >>> >>> Once I had an male acquaintance tell me that one reason women are in inferior roles is because they let this happen to them. As you might imagine, I had a real hard time with that argument and I had to clench my jaw to now spew various vitriol upon him. But after I thought about it, in a narrow sense he is not wrong because not it is true that enough women in history identified the value to struggle for rights even if they would not see equality in their own lifetimes. There are many explanations for why that did not happen, that are not facile to depict. But then I also had to think of how much women's struggles have succeeded because they did decide to not let this happen to them anymore. But now women are learning in the US, anyway, that nothing fought for is a permanent fixture, and so we must become resigned to the perpetual struggle for equality, as all marginalized people must. >>> >>> So now I direct this to our context of education in the venue of online learning. This is not an easy question, and it is not intended to trivialize the work and efforts of many on this list, but it is instead a question of inner reflection, or a taking of inventory of one's own life: >>> >>> How much has each of you done to take measure and fight for meaningful education in the classroom? >>> >>> Could you have done more? Can you do more? >>> >>> Then the same for asking yourself how have you integrated technology appropriately into your learning methods and general perezhivanie. >>> >>> I hope this might provide some further food for thought concerning preservation on the sanctity of learning and instruction in the classroom. >>> >>> So all this is to reply to you Tom, that in short, the nefarious They can only take control if we let them. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> ps please excuse all typos, which are all made on my own. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >>> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 11:26 AM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>> >>> [EXTERNAL] >>> >>> Hi Annalisa >>> >>> Thank you for providing the details of your deep and committed background in distance / online learning. Mine is obviously shallow, which must have triggered you and 'Robsub' somewhat. >>> >>> But my questioning is in the newer context of the Covid19 threats to global society and the solutions being sought to extricate us from them. >>> >>> Governor Cuomo's conversation with Schmidt to examine solutions to the problems of present coping and future emergence from the pandemic is understandable. Two persons with power and a need to act, discuss what technology (in its widest hard- and software aspects) has to offer. >>> >>> In a democracy we can assess the solutions they propose and shape them to what we know to be as near to optimal for our society as possible. Your assertion of the efficacy of our agency which Klein seems to deny, >>> with her politico-economic caveats. >>> >>> Schmidt has an evangelism for the potential of technology, but expressed with such restraint - he's no zealot. He also, in the video of the ECNY conversation with Marie-Josee Kravis, sees the lack of 'simplicity' in the three-tier democratic system of the US. He is a CEO with an organisation geared to problem-analysis, solution choices, and operational capability which can be put into action without delaying debate. He expressed no hostility to 'democracy' but as he said, it does not work simply. >>> >>> Klein reminds us to be wary if not alarmed, not because she is despairing (I believe), but because that direct entrepreneurial drive has profit making as its unavoidable aim. Whatever Schmidt's humanistic feelings, if profit doesn't result from his and his companies actions, they will not survive. That competitive drive is also present in his aspirations for international dominance (see his remarks on the rise of China's technology). >>> >>> So far, the sort of distance / online learning you have worked on, has been nested in the context of family and (normal) school life. That normality had implicit in it human values, customs and structures, whatever differences of class, race, gender and culture were present. The melding of state and enterprise in a newly-developing novel (5G?)high-tech 'solution' to mediating education presents a situation which need to be examined I believe. And my query, in that 'Kleinian' context was looking for answers from those, like yourself, with wide experience of previous technological 'answers' and their implications for the results within the learner. >>> >>> I affirm, along with you, the irrepressible resistance and sheer cantankerousness we humans bring to unjust situations. But such fighting back will often be unsuccessful in its aims, when the need to reduce labour time with new technology is driving events - Luddism and machine looms? Our human drive to change and adapt, our use of our agency to create or alter our lives must not be suppressed. But what Klein is reminding us of is just how tilted is the balance of power - the power of the state and behind it, the drive from the vast corporate world, for profit. Our agency is so often undone by the arbitrary intervention of those forces. >>> >>> Those are the forces which have destroyed what you name the 'sanctity' of teaching and learning. I would name it the basic need for those goals, but we share it. With the need to re-invigorate just such a precious resource, we will continue to fight like hell. Despite their mere humanness, corporations and states at present have greater knowledge and power than 'mere' citizens. My intervention in xmca discussion was really to say "They're looking to take even more control of daily life. >>> Within academia, you can analyse how they are making such changes happen and continue to alert the rest of us, if you fear the consequences of their changes." >>> >>> Best wishes >>> Tom >>> >>> On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 22:29, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>> Hi Tom, >>> >>> May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? >>> >>> Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed by SL's prospects. >>> >>> In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. >>> >>> Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. >>> >>> What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. >>> >>> I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of associations of place with learning. >>> >>> In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and constrain learning to books. >>> >>> We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. >>> >>> I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of learning. >>> >>> I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged learning venues . Not with grade school. >>> >>> I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. >>> >>> I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. >>> >>> What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!RTL6R4v5clcUPqzqia4YDnlySCGo6vKuE7uIMZ_ulAc16g1whGf1KOPGYtu6RrvHNOk7mg$ >>> >>> It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. >>> >>> It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. >>> >>> Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. >>> >>> If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be integrated with existing models. >>> >>> If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. >>> >>> One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and surveillance is a constructive combination. >>> >>> There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. >>> >>> This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and introspection, I will never accept that reality. >>> >>> To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers and pins." >>> >>> I just do not believe this narrative. >>> >>> We cannot give up. >>> >>> Is there a fight ahead? Yes. >>> >>> Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most definitely, yes. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>> >>> [EXTERNAL] >>> >>> >>> Hello Annalisa >>> Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. >>> What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such learning takes place?'. >>> What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes for the perezhivanie of the learner, which shapes her social being and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? >>> Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. >>> I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. >>> >>> Kind regards >>> Tom >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>> Hello Tom, >>> >>> Thank you for posting the link. >>> >>> I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended into our lives. >>> >>> I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. >>> >>> At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. >>> >>> Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). >>> >>> I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. >>> >>> Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. >>> >>> She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control the world. >>> >>> Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to deliberate the way forward. >>> >>> As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency to decide how to use our tools. >>> >>> Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. >>> >>> So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply does not hold water for me. >>> >>> I hope this might be a little encouraging. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>> >>> [EXTERNAL] >>> >>> Hello Tom Richardson >>> This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat Project" that has just finished its >>> planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human development, and theories of "Development >>> in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. >>> Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. >>> The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. >>> In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced >>> a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most members of this discussion over the years, >>> is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). >>> >>> We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. >>> >>> Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about for 100 years. >>> Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing working models of effective practices that do NOT >>> assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. >>> >>> Thanks for asking. >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson > wrote: >>> Greetings Xmca-ers >>> I would like to raise a question. >>> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening recently: >>> >>> >>> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks after that article appeared, he described the ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the country had been forced to cobble together during this public health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. >>> >>> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!RTL6R4v5clcUPqzqia4YDnlySCGo6vKuE7uIMZ_ulAc16g1whGf1KOPGYtu6Rrs9u-Jsyw$ >>> >>> Just asking >>> Tom Richardson >>> Middlesbrough UK >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu . >>> For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . >>> For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net . >>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200526/693913c0/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue May 26 14:37:57 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 06:37:57 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rob-- Thanks--my link works okay, but it's probably because I'm already logged in. So I replaced the link with yours. For a fine example of witless misunderstanding justified with willfull misrepresentation that was used to drive Bernstein's work out of the academy, see the work of Peter Jones, referenced in my article. Peter E. Jones (2013) Bernstein's ?codes? and the linguistics of ?deficit?, Language and Education, 27:2, 161-179, DOI: 10.1080/09500782.2012.760587 Notice the scare quotes around "code" (which Bernstein did use) and likewise the term "deficit" (which Bernstein explicitly repudiated). Clever, huh? But Jones doesn't make this stuff up. He mostly just borrows from the long liberal anti-Marxist American tradition of this kind of attack, going back to William Labov. For example, the "linguist" Jones cites against Halliday is actually a historian of psychology (Jonathan Edwards) who argues that some cultures can have completely degenerate moral codes but very advanced languages, such as cannibal savages! A few years ago we were discussing an article here on xmca by Marilyn Fleer and I asked her if she was a Bernsteinian. I have always considered myself one, and I was genuinely curious to find others of a similar persuasion; Bernstein's name was not so blackened in Australia as it was in America, and Ruqaiya Hasan, who taught in Sydney, was always proud to acknowledge Bernstein as her colleague and mentor. Marilyn was a little indignant. Michael-- Here in Korea the main way of giving on-line classes is just uploading audio file which the student then listen to when they have time and giving lots of homework. Curiously, some of the kids prefer this. ALL of my students dislike using the camera. I am not sure what to make of this... Every crisis is a turning point. Education has gleefully saddled three cash cows: foreign students, college sports, and diploma mills, and all three of these are now hamburger. On the one hand, Zoom classes and audio classes allow us to provide universal college education for almost nothing--if we can solve the mediational problems. On the other, pinkspace classes can easily be social-distanced--if we can just make undergraduate classes the size of graduate seminars (with more classes outside in good weather). But both solutions--universal online tertiary education and extending the graduate seminar experience to undergraduates--will inevitably hinge on the outcome of the struggle to make education an intellectual public institution instead of a semi-intellectual luxury brand, and this in turn will hinge on the struggle for preventive medicine based on foresight instead of astonishment. Oi, Tom! (Way over on the other thread, so I have to shout!) Vygotsky writes a LOT about Spinoza; his sister was doing her PhD on the guy when he was still in high school and he went to stay with her at Moscow University and caught the bug. He was working on a vast tome on how Spinoza's work could be retooled to give us a Marxist (materialist, monist, but dialectical) theory of higher emotions when he died. We are translating it all into Korean, and I am trying to write a preface. Spinoza believed in sentient meat: "Deus, Sive Natura" ("God, that is to say, Nature...") Above all, though, Spinoza believed that emotions are anything that increases or decreases our ability to do things. The interesting thing, which I am still trying to wrap my head around, is that one of those things that does this is the idea of the emotion itself--the perezhivanie. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Xxc_XhqDwcRNNskS29_qkEvlYqR1a1UszU0k6dB-USF8PCH3fnJ5OcvuWgTKCF-MUhfj1A$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Xxc_XhqDwcRNNskS29_qkEvlYqR1a1UszU0k6dB-USF8PCH3fnJ5OcvuWgTKCF94i4Ox7A$ On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 10:51 PM Glassman, Michael wrote: > Hello David, Elizabeth, Annalisa, Rob, others, > > Well social presence and teacher presence are two completely different > lines of research and thinking even though they sound alike. Teacher > presence comes from localized classroom research while social presence > comes from the communication field I believe sometime in the 1960s. Lately > I have begun to think of teacher presence as similar to Bourdeiu's cultural > capital. Our education system teaches certain groups of children how to > read and get in sync with teachers from their more subtle physical signs so > that they become more successful later in their school careers and in life. > Many of the more successful children also get practice in reading these > different signs at home. It is the old adage, don't listen to what I say, > watch what I do. Social presence on the other hand is more related to our > own understanding of our own communications and the value of those > communications. We have a sense of what we are doing from those who are > watching us (in the broad sense), and this sense changes as our sense of > those who are watching us changes not only how we act but the investment we > make in what we do changes accordingly. I see it all the time in teachers, > who they are changes completely when they get up in from of a room of > students. Just a mind experiment. The next time you read an XMCA post see > if you can imagine a few of the members standing over your should observing > you are you are reading with the expectation of some response. See how this > might change your behavior. > > As for Zoom. I just think it is not a good tool for education and the > reason we use it is illusory (because it recreates a place-based experience > so we are more comfortable with it?). Zoom's purpose is not education in > the sense of knowledge sharing and knowledge creation. Its proximal purpose > I believe was to sell to corporations and such for meetings so they would > not have to spend as much on travel. Its distal purpose, meeting platforms > in general, was so individuals could engage in multiple activities related > to the topic but not focused on the topic. I mean it is kind of cool, you > can have a meeting where you wear a tie on top and boxer shorts below. And > we are sometimes a talking head culture. But it is by nature very > unilateral and expert oriented. Do we have to develop a whole new cultural > capital oeuvre for Zoom meetings. We must make sure that those who are > ahead stay ahead. Annalisa in answer to your question no education or Zoom, > I worry about binary choices such as this. Maybe we should be asking > ourselves how we got here in the first place. Why are these our only two > choices right now, and many attempts using Meeting platforms are failing as > they seem to be, how do we move forward from here. Why aren't we asking > more questions, trying to understand how our great digital experiment is > failing education. And speaking to Rob's poignant use of the term pink > space, why is the lack of universal broadband dominating discussions. I > think about the whole one to one movement and I really question why we > leaped ahead to this without a reckoning over the need to have every corner > of our society equitably wired (spoiler alert: because instead of > corporations making oodles of money our society will have to spend oodles > of money). So Annalisa I got back to your question, is it better to have no > education or Zoom and I ask if you stepped on a nail would it be better to > put on a band-aid to stop the bleeding or to figure our how to save your > life (I know the answer will be both but where do I prioritize). > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of robsub@ariadne.org.uk > Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 4:53 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" > > Just a couple of very quick observations. (I find regularly that by the > time I have formulated my response to something, the conversation has moved > on by several degrees, so I'm getting in quickly.) > > Firstly the link to your article on Ruqaiya didn't resolve, David. But I > found it here: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-UtouXiIa-kw$ > . Thank you for that, though - looks well worth reading. > > Secondly, I always had the impression that Bernstein was resisted not > because of his work on codes specifically, but because he was too prone to > allowing his work to be used to justify class differentials, almost to the > level of the poor keep themselves poor by deliberately restricting the > language their children learn. > > Thirdly, meatspace. Hmmm. I'm toying with the idea of pinkspace. Less > physically vulgar than meatspace and reflects the reality that the physical > world, just like the online world, is dominated by those of us who are > pink. Just a thought. Needs developing though. > > Rob > > > On 2020-05-26 03:08, David Kellogg wrote: > > Michael, Anthony, Elizabeth--and (of course) Annalisa: > > > > I apologize for changing the threadline title AGAIN. I feel like the > > five-year-old who is always unscrewing the back of the TV set to see > > the little people inside; I was very dissatisfied withe the abstract > > theory on the other line, according to which everything is everything > > and mediation and unmediation are equally both and I wanted a way of > > finding the people inside it. I thought the term "meatspace", which > > Annalisa has heard before, captured that feeling pretty well (and > > there are also some echoes of a corruscating book review I once read > > in MCA titled something like "Yer askin' me to believe in sentient > > MEAT????") > > > > Let's use Michael's categories of "teacher presence" and "social > > presence" instead, so long as we keep in mind the point that Michael > > made at the end, that is, the teacher is always present even when the > > teacher is not present (as when the child is doing homework alone) and > > the additional point that teacher presence is one kind of social > > presence. But because presence and absence are (like mediated and > > unmediated) equally both ungradeable categories, I would prefer to > > talk about teacher distancing and social distancing. Michael Osterholm > > has objected to the term social distancing for the same reasons I > > raised earlier--it's a physical, mechanical distancing that actually > > creates a higher form of solidarity (and that is why the elements of > > society which oppose higher forms of solidarity oppose it). So I put > > "social distancing" in scare quotes. But the teacher distancing is > > real enough. > > > > Real but not by itself of developmental significance. What worries me > > is the possibility that we are adding to the kinds of inequalitiees > > that Annalisa, Henry and Tom are talking about on the other thread. It > > seems to me that teacher distancing differentially hurts some > > populations. I disagree that Koreans are more homogeneous than other > > cultures (in class terms significantly less so) and I also think that > > if you were to sit through a lecture in the Korean language without > > understanding Korean you would not agree that language is the least > > important aspect of teacher presence. But (to bring these two > > together) I think that students who are able to focus on language, and > > on particular kinds of language, are disproportionately enabled in > > conditions of teacher distancing. This is the issue that dare not > > speak its name, for when Bernstein tried to raise it he was, as > > Halliday noted, "driven out of the field". One of the reasons I wrote > > the article linked below is that Ruqaiya Hasan was not. > > > > David Kellogg > > > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie > > w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d > > 7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-Utot_Yz0eEQ$ [1] > > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: _L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological > > Works_ _Volume One: Foundations of Pedology_" > > > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 > > 5270__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqO > > DPVr-UtotPljj6rQ$ [2] > > > > > > Links: > > ------ > > [1] > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie > > w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zc > > e9P2I5M_FZBJKElhGyP20UejX0w$ > > [2] > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 > > 5270__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zce9P2I5M_FZB > > JKElhGyP026P9-1A$ > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200527/ae6931be/attachment-0001.html From helenaworthen@gmail.com Tue May 26 15:13:34 2020 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 15:13:34 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [commfac-g] [commdept-g] Zoom and Gloom: Universities in the Age of COVID-19 - Los Angeles Review of Books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CF9D923-4256-4622-9B2B-FB248FAB0EF4@gmail.com> Thanks for posting this review. These sound like good books. The Utopian method would help us (people with a stake in higher ed) hop over the horizon of the present moment into concrete proposals for managing what?s coming, and it would also be sure to build on previous transformations of higher eduation and the history of organizing efforts that also go back to the 1960s but have had increasing impact in the last 20 years. Helena Worthen helenaworthen.wordpress.com > On May 26, 2020, at 11:35 AM, mike cole wrote: > > Seems relevant to recent discussions here. > mike > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Zilberg, Elana > > Date: Tue, May 26, 2020 at 11:14 AM > Subject: [commfac-g] [commdept-g] Zoom and Gloom: Universities in the Age of COVID-19 - Los Angeles Review of Books > To: comm dept > > > > An interesting review of two recently published books on higher education from the nearsight of our most recent of current crises?. > > > > > > > -- > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!R38Oy0YmZez7yuj9naZNG8ulnPfDhk8XeDeR4Iq084zapf-XRe4GMWDwMbk7FEAUj0HL4w$ > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu . > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200526/c3dd763f/attachment.html From helenaworthen@gmail.com Tue May 26 15:16:51 2020 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 15:16:51 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [commfac-g] [commdept-g] Zoom and Gloom: Universities in the Age of COVID-19 - Los Angeles Review of Books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04461EC1-F3EE-4936-A1CA-A46B978AA325@gmail.com> Thanks for posting this review. These sound like good books. The Utopian method would help us (people with a stake in higher ed) hop over the horizon of the present moment into concrete proposals for managing what?s coming, and it would also be sure to build on previous transformations of higher eduation and the history of organizing efforts that also go back to the 1960s but have had increasing impact in the last 20 years. Helena Worthen helenaworthen.wordpress.com > On May 26, 2020, at 11:35 AM, mike cole > wrote: > > Seems relevant to recent discussions here. > mike > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Zilberg, Elana > > Date: Tue, May 26, 2020 at 11:14 AM > Subject: [commfac-g] [commdept-g] Zoom and Gloom: Universities in the Age of COVID-19 - Los Angeles Review of Books > To: comm dept > > > > An interesting review of two recently published books on higher education from the nearsight of our most recent of current crises?. > > > > > > > -- > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!RcIrKmYDzl1qG63emuw0Oqax_dE2CYvJ5LKcbEd_Gr6nEqiLt0RmO6zVEEeQT_p_B6RpBA$ > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu . > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200526/3fc89e27/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue May 26 16:39:55 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 16:39:55 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David- As a participant in these discussions over many years, I have never found it helpful to refer to my colleagues as witless, nor to label a whole generation of scholars such as Bill Labov with a labels such as Anti-Marxists liberals. With that kind of starting point, broadcast into the distributed discussants, I don't much want to continue. The issue of differences and deficits is alive, but taking it up this way is a turn off. My colleagues and I have our own bone to pick with Labov's analysis ( lchcautobio.ucsd.edu, chapter 2). If people want to discuss the issue, one might start with a little archeology in the MCA archives for the messages sent in the last few decades. Search the site for Bernstein . A lot of good Harry Daniels work there, as well as David's own prior writing. Perhaps this time around a re-admiration of the issues can connect with the ever-upcoming MCA symposium that David organized on Halliday Hasan Vygotsky Bernstein . Serious, inclusive discussion yes, but not drive by hits. Please. mike On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 2:43 PM David Kellogg wrote: > Rob-- > > Thanks--my link works okay, but it's probably because I'm already logged > in. So I replaced the link with yours. > > For a fine example of witless misunderstanding justified with willfull > misrepresentation that was used to drive Bernstein's work out of the > academy, see the work of Peter Jones, referenced in my article. > > Peter E. Jones (2013) Bernstein's ?codes? and the linguistics of > ?deficit?, Language and Education, 27:2, 161-179, DOI: > 10.1080/09500782.2012.760587 > > Notice the scare quotes around "code" (which Bernstein did > use) and likewise the term "deficit" (which Bernstein explicitly > repudiated). Clever, huh? > > But Jones doesn't make this stuff up. He mostly just borrows from the long > liberal anti-Marxist American tradition of this kind of attack, going back > to William Labov. For example, the "linguist" Jones cites against Halliday > is actually a historian of psychology (Jonathan Edwards) who argues that > some cultures can have completely degenerate moral codes but very advanced > languages, such as cannibal savages! > > A few years ago we were discussing an article here on xmca by Marilyn > Fleer and I asked her if she was a Bernsteinian. I have always considered > myself one, and I was genuinely curious to find others of a similar > persuasion; Bernstein's name was not so blackened in Australia as it was in > America, and Ruqaiya Hasan, who taught in Sydney, was always proud to > acknowledge Bernstein as her colleague and mentor. Marilyn was a little > indignant. > > Michael-- > > Here in Korea the main way of giving on-line classes is just uploading > audio file which the student then listen to when they have time and giving > lots of homework. Curiously, some of the kids prefer this. ALL of my > students dislike using the camera. I am not sure what to make of this... > > Every crisis is a turning point. Education has gleefully saddled three > cash cows: foreign students, college sports, and diploma mills, and all > three of these are now hamburger. On the one hand, Zoom classes and audio > classes allow us to provide universal college education for almost > nothing--if we can solve the mediational problems. On the other, pinkspace > classes can easily be social-distanced--if we can just make undergraduate > classes the size of graduate seminars (with more classes outside in good > weather). But both solutions--universal online tertiary education and > extending the graduate seminar experience to undergraduates--will > inevitably hinge on the outcome of the struggle to make education an > intellectual public institution instead of a semi-intellectual luxury > brand, and this in turn will hinge on the struggle for preventive medicine > based on foresight instead of astonishment. > > Oi, Tom! (Way over on the other thread, so I have to shout!) > > Vygotsky writes a LOT about Spinoza; his sister was doing her PhD on the > guy when he was still in high school and he went to stay with her at Moscow > University and caught the bug. He was working on a vast tome on how > Spinoza's work could be retooled to give us a Marxist (materialist, monist, > but dialectical) theory of higher emotions when he died. We are translating > it all into Korean, and I am trying to write a preface. Spinoza believed in > sentient meat: "Deus, Sive Natura" ("God, that is to say, Nature...") Above > all, though, Spinoza believed that emotions are anything that increases or > decreases our ability to do things. The interesting thing, which I am still > trying to wrap my head around, is that one of those things that does this > is the idea of the emotion itself--the perezhivanie. > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!X1zjCva6r_wJtblbWyHJOS_15YhqYur4K3g8dMt0_sNP7KBTphH_bMveKYl_veC2HqcT2g$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!X1zjCva6r_wJtblbWyHJOS_15YhqYur4K3g8dMt0_sNP7KBTphH_bMveKYl_veCwFzHjcw$ > > > > > On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 10:51 PM Glassman, Michael > wrote: > >> Hello David, Elizabeth, Annalisa, Rob, others, >> >> Well social presence and teacher presence are two completely different >> lines of research and thinking even though they sound alike. Teacher >> presence comes from localized classroom research while social presence >> comes from the communication field I believe sometime in the 1960s. Lately >> I have begun to think of teacher presence as similar to Bourdeiu's cultural >> capital. Our education system teaches certain groups of children how to >> read and get in sync with teachers from their more subtle physical signs so >> that they become more successful later in their school careers and in life. >> Many of the more successful children also get practice in reading these >> different signs at home. It is the old adage, don't listen to what I say, >> watch what I do. Social presence on the other hand is more related to our >> own understanding of our own communications and the value of those >> communications. We have a sense of what we are doing from those who are >> watching us (in the broad sense), and this sense changes as our sense of >> those who are watching us changes not only how we act but the investment we >> make in what we do changes accordingly. I see it all the time in teachers, >> who they are changes completely when they get up in from of a room of >> students. Just a mind experiment. The next time you read an XMCA post see >> if you can imagine a few of the members standing over your should observing >> you are you are reading with the expectation of some response. See how this >> might change your behavior. >> >> As for Zoom. I just think it is not a good tool for education and the >> reason we use it is illusory (because it recreates a place-based experience >> so we are more comfortable with it?). Zoom's purpose is not education in >> the sense of knowledge sharing and knowledge creation. Its proximal purpose >> I believe was to sell to corporations and such for meetings so they would >> not have to spend as much on travel. Its distal purpose, meeting platforms >> in general, was so individuals could engage in multiple activities related >> to the topic but not focused on the topic. I mean it is kind of cool, you >> can have a meeting where you wear a tie on top and boxer shorts below. And >> we are sometimes a talking head culture. But it is by nature very >> unilateral and expert oriented. Do we have to develop a whole new cultural >> capital oeuvre for Zoom meetings. We must make sure that those who are >> ahead stay ahead. Annalisa in answer to your question no education or Zoom, >> I worry about binary choices such as this. Maybe we should be asking >> ourselves how we got here in the first place. Why are these our only two >> choices right now, and many attempts using Meeting platforms are failing as >> they seem to be, how do we move forward from here. Why aren't we asking >> more questions, trying to understand how our great digital experiment is >> failing education. And speaking to Rob's poignant use of the term pink >> space, why is the lack of universal broadband dominating discussions. I >> think about the whole one to one movement and I really question why we >> leaped ahead to this without a reckoning over the need to have every corner >> of our society equitably wired (spoiler alert: because instead of >> corporations making oodles of money our society will have to spend oodles >> of money). So Annalisa I got back to your question, is it better to have no >> education or Zoom and I ask if you stepped on a nail would it be better to >> put on a band-aid to stop the bleeding or to figure our how to save your >> life (I know the answer will be both but where do I prioritize). >> >> Michael >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> On Behalf Of robsub@ariadne.org.uk >> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 4:53 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" >> >> Just a couple of very quick observations. (I find regularly that by the >> time I have formulated my response to something, the conversation has moved >> on by several degrees, so I'm getting in quickly.) >> >> Firstly the link to your article on Ruqaiya didn't resolve, David. But I >> found it here: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-UtouXiIa-kw$ >> . Thank you for that, though - looks well worth reading. >> >> Secondly, I always had the impression that Bernstein was resisted not >> because of his work on codes specifically, but because he was too prone to >> allowing his work to be used to justify class differentials, almost to the >> level of the poor keep themselves poor by deliberately restricting the >> language their children learn. >> >> Thirdly, meatspace. Hmmm. I'm toying with the idea of pinkspace. Less >> physically vulgar than meatspace and reflects the reality that the physical >> world, just like the online world, is dominated by those of us who are >> pink. Just a thought. Needs developing though. >> >> Rob >> >> >> On 2020-05-26 03:08, David Kellogg wrote: >> > Michael, Anthony, Elizabeth--and (of course) Annalisa: >> > >> > I apologize for changing the threadline title AGAIN. I feel like the >> > five-year-old who is always unscrewing the back of the TV set to see >> > the little people inside; I was very dissatisfied withe the abstract >> > theory on the other line, according to which everything is everything >> > and mediation and unmediation are equally both and I wanted a way of >> > finding the people inside it. I thought the term "meatspace", which >> > Annalisa has heard before, captured that feeling pretty well (and >> > there are also some echoes of a corruscating book review I once read >> > in MCA titled something like "Yer askin' me to believe in sentient >> > MEAT????") >> > >> > Let's use Michael's categories of "teacher presence" and "social >> > presence" instead, so long as we keep in mind the point that Michael >> > made at the end, that is, the teacher is always present even when the >> > teacher is not present (as when the child is doing homework alone) and >> > the additional point that teacher presence is one kind of social >> > presence. But because presence and absence are (like mediated and >> > unmediated) equally both ungradeable categories, I would prefer to >> > talk about teacher distancing and social distancing. Michael Osterholm >> > has objected to the term social distancing for the same reasons I >> > raised earlier--it's a physical, mechanical distancing that actually >> > creates a higher form of solidarity (and that is why the elements of >> > society which oppose higher forms of solidarity oppose it). So I put >> > "social distancing" in scare quotes. But the teacher distancing is >> > real enough. >> > >> > Real but not by itself of developmental significance. What worries me >> > is the possibility that we are adding to the kinds of inequalitiees >> > that Annalisa, Henry and Tom are talking about on the other thread. It >> > seems to me that teacher distancing differentially hurts some >> > populations. I disagree that Koreans are more homogeneous than other >> > cultures (in class terms significantly less so) and I also think that >> > if you were to sit through a lecture in the Korean language without >> > understanding Korean you would not agree that language is the least >> > important aspect of teacher presence. But (to bring these two >> > together) I think that students who are able to focus on language, and >> > on particular kinds of language, are disproportionately enabled in >> > conditions of teacher distancing. This is the issue that dare not >> > speak its name, for when Bernstein tried to raise it he was, as >> > Halliday noted, "driven out of the field". One of the reasons I wrote >> > the article linked below is that Ruqaiya Hasan was not. >> > >> > David Kellogg >> > >> > Sangmyung University >> > >> > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> > Outlines, Spring 2020 >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie >> > w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d >> > 7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-Utot_Yz0eEQ$ [1] >> > >> > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: _L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >> > Works_ _Volume One: Foundations of Pedology_" >> > >> > >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 >> > 5270__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqO >> > DPVr-UtotPljj6rQ$ [2] >> > >> > >> > Links: >> > ------ >> > [1] >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie >> > w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zc >> > e9P2I5M_FZBJKElhGyP20UejX0w$ >> > [2] >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 >> > 5270__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zce9P2I5M_FZB >> > JKElhGyP026P9-1A$ >> >> >> -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!X1zjCva6r_wJtblbWyHJOS_15YhqYur4K3g8dMt0_sNP7KBTphH_bMveKYl_veC5fjP8uw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200526/e0a240e5/attachment.html From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Wed May 27 02:24:53 2020 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 10:24:53 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: <29749880-98FE-47D7-84E1-841BB6B9B6C5@gmail.com> References: <78D4E5A7-6661-4F59-A41F-A1FD92995FD6@gmail.com> <29749880-98FE-47D7-84E1-841BB6B9B6C5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Good Morning Henry Your confusions and eventual clarity explain and help a great deal, mirroring my own as I read Damasio's account. I shall dig further with gratitude to you. Best Tom BoWen On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 22:29, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Hi Tom, > No problem enabling your laziness with my shallow reading of Spinzoa. I > confess that I have read nothing directly from Spinoza, but have read about > his philosphy and about his life. It?s been a while since I read Looking > for Spinoza: Joy Sorrow and the Feeling Brain. I am looking at the book now > and am amazed with how much highlighting there is and how little of it I > remember in detail. What got me into it was the distinction between > emotions and feelings. Damasio is a neuroscientist, and the book are full > of the neural correlates of affective states, being the ?easy? problem of > consciousness. The ?hard? problem of explaining the reason any arrangements > at all of matter can possibly result in consciousness is not explained. > What got me into it was the distinction between emotions and feelings. > Damasio associates emotions (fear, anger, surprise, disgust, sadness and > happiness) with primal parts of the brain connected to homeostasis of the > organism. Emotions are evoked prior to the more narrative experience of > feelings. To tell the truth, I am still not entirely clear on the > distinction, largely because he explains the difference through case > studies of people who have suffered damage to different parts of the brain, > losing me. Maybe I got it at the time, but looking through the book now, > it?s not so clear. One interesting thing is that we can have social > emotions, which means homeostasis is not just internal to the human > organism. > > Anyway, the book is worth digging through. Hope that helps a little. Whew! > > Henry > > > On May 26, 2020, at 1:31 PM, Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > > > Hi Henry > Thank you for your thoughtful, fact full reply. > > It would save me continuing to plough through Damasio's well-written but > fairly lengthy book 'Looking for Spinoza', if you were to send me a brief > personal summary of what he means intellectually for you - (or am I being > lazy?) - since it is always illuminating to understand what our thinkers > mean to/for our peers. I have not broached Baruch S's work for myself. > > Best wishes > Tom > > On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 17:09, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Hi Tom, >> Thank you for your rich, well-thought-out response to my question. And >> thank you for recognizing that I wanted it to be generous. Perhaps a >> quibble is that you associate the first stage of Stalinist rule as >> capitalist, rather than industrial, as I understand it. I think that?s >> important. Stalin?s top-down planning had the same hall marks as Mao?s, >> Castro?s and the current North Korean leader. I appreciate your optimism >> that any system devised by humans can create human thriving that is not >> destructive of of humanity itself. We seem to have boxed ourselves into a >> corner by destroying our niche, the world. COVID-19 and climate change, >> IMHO, we are all, indvidually and collectively complicit. I hope that we >> can get beyond romanticism and cynicism in meeting our fate. I think that >> Vygotsky and Spinoza represent what can come of wrestling with open hearts >> and clear thinking with our condition. >> Henry >> >> >> On May 26, 2020, at 3:09 AM, Tom Richardson < >> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: >> >> Good Morning (GMT+1) Henry >> >> I'm touched by your mail today. My life experience does not include such >> practical engagement as yours, with any of the major social disruptions / >> attempts at new organisation, of the C20. >> >> It seems dismissively facile to criticise amazing historic >> re-organisations of social life like the Cuban Revolution, but it is >> necessary. Otherwise the same mistakes will happen again and again. >> >> The political strand which I accept as most accurately analysing >> historical and current reality characterises the liberation movements >> (particularities, differences, I'm ignoring for sake of quick explanation) >> post 1900, as nationalist, and mostly state socialist/capitalist. IE they >> are top-down, state directed anti-imperialist/colonialist movements. The >> self-organisation and free association of the producers that is the essence >> of communist organisation is absent. Often there is some commitment to a >> Kautskyan / Stalinist "two stage theory", requiring full >> capitalist development to prepare the ground for the next step of >> proletarian rule - eg in the South African struggle. We can see where that >> has led so far. >> >> But the analysts I accept, posit that socialism in one country cannot be >> created nor sustained while the basis of total global social reproduction >> is the money based economy, taken forward by the capital-labour >> relationship of commodity production - the so-called 'free market' whose >> anarchy ensures an absence of any organised relationship to global human >> needs, since it is driven by the *value-based circulation of commodities* dominating >> all global production. >> >> The freedom is that of the individual / joint-stock company in the >> pursuit of surplus value. And, yes, Marx, does provide an analysis of >> "money" which indicates how a future system of production would/could not >> be based on the use of money and therefore wages. >> >> There is so much literature about this to be investigated, (much of it >> written by US authors, extraordinarily, given the Chicago School and the >> legacy of McCarthy). I started with Engels 'Socialism, Utopian and >> Scientific' which explained in a way that my pro-market, individualist >> history teacher could not, why the Anti-Corn Law League had 'won' and the >> Chartists had failed. >> >> Anyway, I am only recycling, from my own limited understanding, the sort >> of analysis that the original authors of the literature I value provide in >> overwhelming but convincing detail. >> >> While the way forward towards a future that communists see as essential >> if the planet is not to be destroyed, or at least human life on it, is not >> in prospect as far as any realist can foresee, at present, the reality of >> the Barbarism that Capital brings (together with the technology necessary >> for the possibility of real change), is clear every moment in our lives. >> >> Human resistance and creative answers to apparently insoluble problems, >> and the reality that the working class has nothing to gain that sustains >> *real* *fulfilling human* life from capital's continuation, sustain my >> knowledge that my commitment to moving beyond capitalism, is both essential >> and realistic. >> >> I trust that this attempted answer to your generous question makes >> sufficient sense . >> >> Best wishes >> >> Tom >> >> >> >> On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 22:26, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >> >>> Hi Tom, >>> What is it about ?free market economies? is the cause of wage slavery? >>> Is there at least some jiggering of the market that could end ?destructive >>> anarchy?? Do we do away with money? And I am serious here. I take it that >>> capitalism is the problem, not the market, or money. I was in the doctoral >>> program in economics at UC Berkeley during the late 60s. My concentrations >>> were comparative economic systems and economic planning. I dropped out >>> after only getting a masters degree in economics there, and went to Cuba to >>> cut sugar cane with the Venceremos Brigade. I felt strongly Che?s call to >>> make the New Man (though women were there too, and check out the film >>> ?Lucia?) of that era, but I think that central planning (Castro?) of the >>> Cuban economy had a destructive and anarchic side. Castro apologized for >>> his mistakes during the year of 10 million tons of sugar cane production, >>> but the damage was done. Cuba has been a shining light in some ways for me >>> and others, not least the health care workers, the original Doctors Without >>> Borders, that beautifully exemplify the new human. >>> >>> So, really, what do we replace markets and money with? Or is it the >>> ?free? part that?s the rub. >>> >>> Henry >>> >>> >>> On May 25, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Tom Richardson < >>> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Hello Annalisa >>> >>> "All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is:" >>> >>> Since I have suggested neither of the alternatives you state as the only >>> way forward, it would surely invalidate your further argument. >>> >>> But I must admit that the idea of thirty thousand working class families >>> and then some, organising to change the wage-slavery employment system >>> that they are exploited by, would be a great idea. >>> Here's to that day, as the freely associated producers of our social >>> life organise to end the destructive anarchy of our present free-market >>> economies. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 19:58, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Tom and others, >>>> >>>> >>>> I agree that Capitalism is bad, and that it causes wealth and poverty >>>> in extremes. Which then creates social injustices that would be much >>>> lessened with less economic inequality. >>>> >>>> >>>> I do not think that I ever said (did I?) to ignore the traditional >>>> power structures. I said that every day we negotiate the power structures. >>>> And when we decide it's not working we can create change. That possibility >>>> is always an option, but it demands diligence, discipline, and discovery. >>>> >>>> >>>> All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is: >>>> >>>> 1. it's futile. Give up. The structures will always be against us. >>>> Settle in to your given hand of bad fortune. >>>> >>>> 2. grab a gun and kill as many people sitting in seats of power (which >>>> means the chair of power remains to be replaced by someone else). >>>> >>>> >>>> Forgive me if I reject both those options. >>>> >>>> >>>> As I said, perhaps in another post, the liberal position of citing data >>>> and objecting to the existence of that data, isn't going to make power >>>> structures change. >>>> >>>> >>>> What would make change is for those 15K-30K families to organize and >>>> among themselves decide how and what they can do to make their lot better. >>>> >>>> >>>> It's called organizing. >>>> >>>> >>>> Civil disobedience works because it is civil. >>>> >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Tom Richardson < >>>> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> >>>> *Sent:* Monday, May 25, 2020 3:25 AM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>> >>>> >>>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>>> Hi Annalisa >>>> Good Morning - just a correction to figures about poverty in our town - >>>> I should have been more careful,; fortunately the figures from memory were >>>> an underestimate rather than an exaggeration: >>>> >>>> Almost 30,000 children are living in poverty across Teesside - and half >>>> are from working families. >>>> >>>> And stark new statistics reveal that the picture is worst in central >>>> Middlesbrough >>>> - >>>> as hyper-local, official Government data reveals three quarters of all kids >>>> in one neighbourhood are living below the breadline. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> BoWen >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 22:17, Annalisa Aguilar >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Alas, hello again Tom (& VO's), >>>> >>>> While I accept your assessment of our differences in approaches and >>>> understandings, I do not see that it is obvious that there is no meeting >>>> point. >>>> >>>> For example, innovation exists in science and in art, in business it is >>>> entrepreneurship. I believe that there are good things that come from >>>> business entrepreneurship, and there are bad things too. We love that art >>>> and science are innovative, when they are, but there can be failings there >>>> too. >>>> >>>> The captains of industry who believe they are self-made men, and who >>>> believe that anyone who decides for oneself being on the assembly line of >>>> the manufacturing floor is only a dumb pawn in a larger game, would be in >>>> my estimation the worst that kind of human that entrepreneurship generates. >>>> Elon Musk is one example, perhaps. >>>> >>>> As much as I likely would not want Elon Musk over for dinner, I can >>>> admire that he has been able to steward the creation of an electric car in >>>> the midst of a sleepwalking auto industry that cannot envision automobiles >>>> without a gas-eating combustible engine. >>>> >>>> At the same time what he gives he takes away: I'm not sure that I can >>>> ever get on board a space rocket to inhabit Mars. I actually object to that >>>> project because as long as we haven't worked out how to feed everyone on >>>> this earthship, we should not be escaping it by polluting another planet, >>>> even if, as Carl Sagan told us, there are billions and billions of them out >>>> there. >>>> >>>> "They" in the form of (other they)'s do not have power unless we give >>>> them that power. That power is always up for debate every minute, every >>>> day, every year. >>>> >>>> Given that there are now 38 million unemployed in the US (I can't name >>>> the numbers elsewhere and I'm sorry about that), that's like the entire >>>> population of California being on the dole. It is a significant number, and >>>> it may be that many of those people start their own businesses, not because >>>> of education or desire, but of necessity. >>>> >>>> Many of the young and unemployed are educated. That could be a >>>> combustible cocktail, depending upon their self-awareness and outward >>>> worldview. >>>> >>>> One strange article in NYT described a scene designer who has been out >>>> of work since the health order shutdown, and hasn't received any >>>> unemployment yet because she filed in New Jersey, while her partner did >>>> because he filed in New York. Then she got an offer to work in a company >>>> who is making ... wait for it.... facemasks, so now she is toiling over a >>>> machine, sewing facemasks. >>>> >>>> I don't think I could live in that situation because of the stark >>>> irony, if that is a just word for that. I mourn the loss of her creativity, >>>> but I hope it is temporary. >>>> >>>> Now out of necessity, she's had to travel that path. So I can agree >>>> with you that because of the government order to shut down business, and >>>> because a company who hired her decided to make facemasks, because what >>>> other ingenious product would or could one manufacture right now? they have >>>> shaped her working life. Have they shaped her social life, though. I mean >>>> completely? She still has her contacts on her iPhone, she likely returns >>>> home to her partner to cook dinner and search for more work. Her desires >>>> and dreams are likely impacted, but has she completely given up? Should she? >>>> >>>> I am not pro-revolution, only because they create rivers of blood in >>>> streets, etc. I'm more of the mind that incremental choices can together >>>> create a tipping point of social change. >>>> >>>> For example, consider the tiny house movement. Or how young people will >>>> share resources, or reevaluate buying things, or what they eat. >>>> >>>> People make the best lemonade only with the best lemons. >>>> >>>> There is going to have to be a reckoning of having so many unemployed >>>> people. It can't be ignored. To just pretend that everyone will be happy >>>> with a lower wage job (lower than when the pandemic hit), is only going to >>>> drive people to desperate measures. The country will want to put people to >>>> work and this could be an opportunity for collective change, for creating >>>> meaningful jobs. >>>> >>>> Because who wants a civil war. >>>> >>>> So there will have to be some sort of appeasement for the social >>>> reality that people must have their basic needs met. The temporary stimulus >>>> is a lifeline, but the real economic difficulties will start when people >>>> start to return to work, and there are less jobs with the result being >>>> there is less money circulating in the economy overall. With interest rates >>>> so low, and pumping more money into the economy is only going to raise the >>>> prices of things, possibly wages, but not the buying power. >>>> >>>> People will cut bait from the lives they once had, and simplify. Moving >>>> to less crowded cities and towns, returning to live with parents. Perhaps >>>> creating cooperatives. One area for discovery with so much time on one's >>>> hands is handcrafting. I think there will be a blooming of new businesses >>>> that incorporate *real* labor. This may also usher in more vocational >>>> training programs. >>>> >>>> One article I read today discussed the eating of meat, and how it is a >>>> destructive social practice including its impact on climate change. Largely >>>> that industry depends upon of automation, and now with slaughterhouses >>>> being virus hotspots, do you want to trust that the meat you buy is not >>>> tainted with COVID? Or that you are forcing a worker into an unsafe work >>>> environment and catch the virus? >>>> >>>> If people were decide to stop eating meat, or reduce even its >>>> consumption because it's too expensive, and if the government stops giving >>>> subsidies to these agro-corporations, then these polluting companies will >>>> fail. That would be great news. >>>> >>>> Then the writer pointed out that if we returned to diets higher in >>>> plant-based food, that would increase demand for real farms, real >>>> entrepreneurship and generate jobs, as it takes more people to grow >>>> vegetables, than it does to raise pigs or chickens. We would also become >>>> healthier as a population. There is already a network of farmer's markets >>>> for local produce, so it may mean a growth in that area. >>>> >>>> I suppose what I'm trying to say is I do not think it is so cut and >>>> dried that we are subject to the worst forever. I think with so much time >>>> on our hands people are free to organize and decide to help one another in >>>> mutual aid. We do not have to rely on traditional power structures, and we >>>> do not have to resort to bloody revolutions. >>>> >>>> Depending upon what you are looking for in life, there is a third way >>>> arising. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Tom Richardson < >>>> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 23, 2020 4:24 AM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>> >>>> >>>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>>> Hello once more Annalisa >>>> >>>> Our difference of approach to and understanding of the modern state and >>>> the production of social life obviously admits of no meeting point as far >>>> as I read your astonishingly wide-ranging and impassioned response. >>>> >>>> Without the simplicity of my reply intending to signal a facile >>>> sarcasm, I must bluntly state that I begin from the acceptance that >>>> nefarious or not, 'They', in the sense of government and corporations, do >>>> have the power to control and shape the organisation of social life. We >>>> can, if enough socio-political pressure can be brought to bear through >>>> social movements, rebellions, revolts, shift certain aspects of that >>>> fashioning of our lives. >>>> >>>> But at present, the relationship of wage slavery imposed by Capital >>>> ,and the society shaped by that relationship, are dominant throughout the >>>> life of our planet. >>>> >>>> Sad at such an impasse, since we both wish the best for humanity >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 21:46, Annalisa Aguilar >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Tom, and VO's of XMCA >>>> >>>> Concerning your questions about our new normal now that COVID19 is with >>>> us and here to stay, I think your guess is as good as anyone's. I am not >>>> sure if we as humans have ever been burdened with such an event as this, >>>> and at the same time are able to watch the unfolding events and respond (or >>>> not respond if you are a stable genius) quickly from the feedback of data, >>>> news, anecdotes, and other forms of perception of how the virus is >>>> impacting us. >>>> >>>> What is worth remembering as well, is that epidemiologists have been >>>> warning us for decades that a pandemic was a clear an present danger to the >>>> way we live and negotiate the modern world. We see in sensurround how right >>>> they were. >>>> >>>> As I consider your question, I have to think that people mow might be >>>> sorted into two classes, well at least two classes: >>>> >>>> >>>> 1. People who seem to think the virus is just another flu and once >>>> we find a vaccine, all will return to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December >>>> Holiday or pre-pandemic time you mark your calendar as before the pandemic >>>> hit, which of course depends upon where on the earth you are located). >>>> 2. People who seem to think the virus has changed us and there will >>>> never be going back to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday...) >>>> >>>> I suspect the Americans of the neo-conservative persuasion who have >>>> been motivated to protest health order social distancing believe that not >>>> only this is a conspiracy to control fredom-loving people, but that we >>>> should return to Christmas 2019 as soon as possible, they are of Cohort 1. >>>> >>>> I think Cohort 2 are going to be people who take in the facts and the >>>> data and are actively attempting to sort out where do we go from here. I >>>> feel confident you are in Cohort 2, as ar most people on this list. >>>> >>>> Now, as Carol M has pointed out, in a lot of ways our discussion about >>>> online learning is a first world concern, for those who have an internet >>>> connection that is ubiquitous not only at home, but at school, work, on the >>>> bus, on planes, in cafes, and other public gathering spaces, like city >>>> halls, or town squares. That's another reason why it's hard to take Klein >>>> seriously, in terms of *tone*. >>>> >>>> I recall reading something from George Lakoff when he indicates that >>>> there is a liberal stance that seems to believe that if one objects loudly >>>> enough with "sky is falling" rhetoric and then feed out various data, that >>>> using this strategy the audience will become motivated to protest in the >>>> streets, write letters to congress, run for office, or whatever civil >>>> action must be done, and with alacrity. It doesn't work. I do not think >>>> being against anything ever "works." I think only being for something >>>> works. >>>> >>>> Let's look at Klein's article as an example. If she were to be >>>> rhetorically successful she would outline the problem she identifies (Mr. >>>> Schmidt goes to Washington), but instead of all that is wrong, talk about >>>> what can be right. Not to say she should agree with Mr. Schmidt and his >>>> ways. >>>> >>>> I feel her article could be a lot heavier on what works with education >>>> and how to enhance that further. She does mention how money should b used >>>> more for school nurses, smaller classrooms, etc. This is where she could >>>> have expanded beautifully into a viable solution to spark everyone's >>>> imaginations. But she didn't do that. She is more motivated it seems to >>>> mark Mr. Schmidt and his technological minions to masterminding a New World >>>> Order that will steal our souls and tether us to the Matrix from now until >>>> the end of time. >>>> >>>> I also feel she would have been more conducive to discourse by writing >>>> an open letter to Cuomo and Schmidt, and to invite a response. This is also >>>> leading by example to cultivate democratic processes that are near and dear >>>> to all of us. Instead she "otherfies" them, and this is also not useful. >>>> And I am not saying that as a stance to defend Mr. Schmidt or Gov Cuomo, in >>>> any way. >>>> >>>> So back to your question, I do not think that there is any way we will >>>> be extricated from this reality of COVID 19. We will have to pick our >>>> stones across the river carefully so that none of us slips and is carried >>>> down the rapids. I feel it is more useful to say we are a family of one >>>> kind, and all of us have to stay together to make it across. And that all >>>> of us deserves a life jacket as a measure of survival because not all of us >>>> will get to the other side without getting wet, or falling in. >>>> >>>> The tension between CEOs and their contempt for the slow-food of >>>> democracy is well known. If only they could persuade all of us to eat fast >>>> food, then they could take over the world as the next McDonalds, in terms >>>> of technological vision, whatever a McDonalds would look like on a screen, >>>> as an app, whathaveyou. >>>> >>>> Unfortunately what seems to elude folks who have not worked in tech, or >>>> those who see tech as just another new Ford in the garage, is that >>>> technology is always in flux. There is always development of new hardware >>>> that needs new software written to use it, so there is a double-quicksand >>>> of events upon which technology is founded (and funded) upon. That's what >>>> Moore's Law is about. >>>> >>>> Technology in order to "be itself" must always move fleetingly, like >>>> the shark must to breathe. Technology will never be able to last the halls >>>> of government. For that reason, any rendition of technology in government >>>> (and school systems for that matter) will be like bad combovers that are >>>> meant to convince us that we are now more attractive and appealing (not >>>> meaning to offend those who live by their combovers...) >>>> >>>> Where I feel technology could best serve us is to help create >>>> grassroots democracy tools, to support what we know is possible and could >>>> even threaten the basis for representative democracy and bring it closer to >>>> a straight agora democracy. >>>> >>>> Some might call this anarchy, and I could argue along the lines of >>>> David Graeber that anarchy is a more pure form of democracy practiced in >>>> all "primitive" or "ancient" cultures, it's not a perfect fit, and I intend >>>> to make that reference loosely. My point is to say there should be what >>>> David K calls involution of what government is, to what government was, and >>>> to supplant that, or rather what causes those parts to be pushed to the >>>> margins is to imagine a government where there is mor connection to >>>> agora-like venues where one person speaking in a Zoom-like frame is of >>>> equal stature of any other person speaking in the frame. One can sort of >>>> imagine this with the Zoom-empowered senate hearings which I watched for a >>>> while on the NYT front page. It was really strange to me. I suppose the >>>> danger is that we get to hear Sally Mc? from Arizona use her time to blame >>>> the Chinese for the virus, etc, for more time that we would like. But >>>> that's democracy. >>>> >>>> So one fallout could be that grade-school kids and their resulting >>>> perezhivanie from Zoom-based classrooms, will adopt the tool for political >>>> discussions as adults. Might that be a good thing? >>>> >>>> Maybe. >>>> >>>> At the same time, do you remember a book that came out in the mid90s >>>> called "Silicon Snake Oil"? This is yet another phenomenon of technology, >>>> that people oozing charisma will claw their way to the microphone and pitch >>>> an idea about the next vaporware, who will then make unsubstantiated >>>> promises and claims directed to feed our fantasies and dreams, and who will >>>> then abscond with all the money, only to request not to look at the man >>>> behind the green curtain, or if pulled by the ear into a senate hearing >>>> will say "I thought it was a good idea at the time." etc. >>>> >>>> I think that is the view of Klein about all technology, and there are >>>> merits in that, but there are also other ways to think about it. >>>> >>>> This article about Marc Benioff in Wired recently discusses about the >>>> social entrepreneurship of his wealth: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.wired.com/story/gospel-of-wealth-according-to-marc-benioff/__;!!Mih3wA!Tjf28eHnOL5f1WbeRh-7EHG8XCVoRTsqz5df6xnEngXORjztYkl0rW452WS2qbXNQHVv7Q$ >>>> >>>> Who by they way now owns the magazine Time, the way Jeff Bezos bought >>>> the WaPo, and Lauren Jobs bought The Altlantic, and Pierre Omidyar funded >>>> The Intercept. >>>> >>>> I do invite, as much as you can stomach, anyway, for any educators or >>>> other members of our vibrant list to make regular reading of Wired >>>> Magazine, which is a far more interesting read on technology than something >>>> like Fast Company. I encourage this reading, if only to know the enemy, as >>>> it were. Wired articles are far more nuanced and sophisticated than when >>>> the magazine first got off the ground in the early 90s. I find reading it >>>> helps to connect some dots for those who do not consume technology culture >>>> all the time. Just pick and choose what you are curious about. >>>> >>>> We must become familiar with the vernacular of technology if we want a >>>> hand in the game of how it plays in education, our stomping grounds. This >>>> will require effort on our part. That is not to say we must adopt all the >>>> shiny new toys. But we can be like a Consumer Report for education, and >>>> evaluate and measure the good the bad and the ugly of technology and its >>>> use in the edu sphere. >>>> >>>> We cannot sit on our laurels and wait for someone else to decide for us >>>> how technology will be deployed. That stance is what the mythology of >>>> inevitable technology rests and self-perpetuates. >>>> >>>> We must be more tech literate, and we must be the first to coin words >>>> and how they manifest in edu venues. What works what doesn't. I don't see >>>> any other way to fight back and to keep control of the educational >>>> narrative, where of course we want to hardwire zopeds, manifest and lead >>>> critical and nourishing perezhivanie, and model by example sterling >>>> mediated learning experiences for students and teachers. >>>> >>>> What other projects can there be? >>>> >>>> For me, this is "fighting back" because it makes the sort of shark-like >>>> entrepreneur recede for a time (as they will always be looking for a way >>>> into edu's tax coffers), because we are successful getting education right. >>>> >>>> I do not accept that entreprenuership is what took the sanctity from >>>> teaching and learning. But that's an argument to be made. I feel it is only >>>> one side of the argument. >>>> >>>> Once I had an male acquaintance tell me that one reason women are in >>>> inferior roles is because they let this happen to them. As you might >>>> imagine, I had a real hard time with that argument and I had to clench my >>>> jaw to now spew various vitriol upon him. But after I thought about it, in >>>> a narrow sense he is not wrong because not it is true that enough women in >>>> history identified the value to struggle for rights even if they would not >>>> see equality in their own lifetimes. There are many explanations for why >>>> that did not happen, that are not facile to depict. But then I also had to >>>> think of how much women's struggles have succeeded because they did decide >>>> to not let this happen to them anymore. But now women are learning in the >>>> US, anyway, that nothing fought for is a permanent fixture, and so we must >>>> become resigned to the perpetual struggle for equality, as all marginalized >>>> people must. >>>> >>>> So now I direct this to our context of education in the venue of online >>>> learning. This is not an easy question, and it is not intended to >>>> trivialize the work and efforts of many on this list, but it is instead a >>>> question of inner reflection, or a taking of inventory of one's own life: >>>> >>>> How much has each of you done to take measure and fight for meaningful >>>> education in the classroom? >>>> >>>> Could you have done more? Can you do more? >>>> >>>> Then the same for asking yourself how have you integrated technology >>>> appropriately into your learning methods and general perezhivanie. >>>> >>>> I hope this might provide some further food for thought concerning >>>> preservation on the sanctity of learning and instruction in the classroom. >>>> >>>> So all this is to reply to you Tom, that in short, the nefarious They >>>> can only take control if we let them. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> ps please excuse all typos, which are all made on my own. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Tom Richardson < >>>> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 11:26 AM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>> >>>> >>>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>>> Hi Annalisa >>>> >>>> Thank you for providing the details of your deep and committed >>>> background in distance / online learning. Mine is obviously shallow, which >>>> must have triggered you and 'Robsub' somewhat. >>>> >>>> But my questioning is in the newer context of the Covid19 threats to >>>> global society and the solutions being sought to extricate us from them. >>>> >>>> Governor Cuomo's conversation with Schmidt to examine solutions to the >>>> problems of present coping and future emergence from the pandemic is >>>> understandable. Two persons with power and a need to act, discuss what >>>> technology (in its widest hard- and software aspects) has to offer. >>>> >>>> In a democracy we can assess the solutions they propose and shape them >>>> to what we know to be as near to optimal for our society as possible. Your >>>> assertion of the efficacy of our agency which Klein seems to deny, >>>> with her politico-economic caveats. >>>> >>>> Schmidt has an evangelism for the potential of technology, but >>>> expressed with such restraint - he's no zealot. He also, in the video of >>>> the ECNY conversation with Marie-Josee Kravis, sees the lack of >>>> 'simplicity' in the three-tier democratic system of the US. He is a CEO >>>> with an organisation geared to problem-analysis, solution choices, and >>>> operational capability which can be put into action without delaying >>>> debate. He expressed no hostility to 'democracy' but as he said, it does >>>> not work simply. >>>> >>>> Klein reminds us to be wary if not alarmed, not because she is >>>> despairing (I believe), but because that direct entrepreneurial drive has >>>> profit making as its unavoidable aim. Whatever Schmidt's humanistic >>>> feelings, if profit doesn't result from his and his companies actions, they >>>> will not survive. That competitive drive is also present in his aspirations >>>> for international dominance (see his remarks on the rise of China's >>>> technology). >>>> >>>> So far, the sort of distance / online learning you have worked on, has >>>> been nested in the context of family and (normal) school life. That >>>> normality had implicit in it human values, customs and structures, whatever >>>> differences of class, race, gender and culture were present. The melding of >>>> state and enterprise in a newly-developing novel (5G?)high-tech 'solution' >>>> to mediating education presents a situation which need to be examined I >>>> believe. And my query, in that 'Kleinian' context was looking for answers >>>> from those, like yourself, with wide experience of previous technological >>>> 'answers' and their implications for the results within the learner. >>>> >>>> I affirm, along with you, the irrepressible resistance and sheer >>>> cantankerousness we humans bring to unjust situations. But such fighting >>>> back will often be unsuccessful in its aims, when the need to reduce labour >>>> time with new technology is driving events - Luddism and machine looms? Our >>>> human drive to change and adapt, our use of our agency to create or alter >>>> our lives must not be suppressed. But what Klein is reminding us of is just >>>> how tilted is the balance of power - the power of the state and behind it, >>>> the drive from the vast corporate world, for profit. Our agency is so often >>>> undone by the arbitrary intervention of those forces. >>>> >>>> Those are the forces which have destroyed what you name the 'sanctity' >>>> of teaching and learning. I would name it the basic need for those goals, >>>> but we share it. With the need to re-invigorate just such a precious >>>> resource, we will continue to fight like hell. Despite their mere >>>> humanness, corporations and states at present have greater knowledge and >>>> power than 'mere' citizens. My intervention in xmca discussion was really >>>> to say "They're looking to take even more control of daily life. >>>> Within academia, you can analyse how they are making such changes >>>> happen and continue to alert the rest of us, if you fear the consequences >>>> of their changes." >>>> >>>> Best wishes >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 22:29, Annalisa Aguilar >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Tom, >>>> >>>> May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? >>>> >>>> Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We >>>> looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, >>>> once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always >>>> a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed >>>> by SL's prospects. >>>> >>>> In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, >>>> I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that >>>> students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one >>>> another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological >>>> fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would >>>> ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. >>>> >>>> Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like >>>> looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. >>>> Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. >>>> >>>> What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of >>>> place, which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot >>>> of open space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but >>>> it was perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. >>>> >>>> I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators >>>> already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online >>>> learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers >>>> during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of >>>> associations of place with learning. >>>> >>>> In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as >>>> the AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, >>>> drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in >>>> order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye >>>> coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing >>>> abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and >>>> constrain learning to books. >>>> >>>> We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We >>>> must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. >>>> >>>> I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which >>>> the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts >>>> of learning. >>>> >>>> I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but >>>> out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for >>>> quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged >>>> learning venues . Not with grade school. >>>> >>>> I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for >>>> grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally >>>> studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, >>>> although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon >>>> it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess >>>> that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because >>>> parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. >>>> >>>> I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, >>>> nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. >>>> >>>> What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is >>>> childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own >>>> families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!Tjf28eHnOL5f1WbeRh-7EHG8XCVoRTsqz5df6xnEngXORjztYkl0rW452WS2qbXZW8YZIw$ >>>> >>>> >>>> It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a >>>> right, not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the >>>> pandemic may also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom >>>> education and why we must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. >>>> >>>> It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the >>>> classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances >>>> that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. >>>> >>>> Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by >>>> the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that >>>> he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and >>>> that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. >>>> People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, >>>> etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it >>>> the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of >>>> learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. >>>> >>>> If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to >>>> already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support >>>> well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be >>>> integrated with existing models. >>>> >>>> If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another >>>> way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where >>>> money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and >>>> wasteful. >>>> >>>> One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online >>>> learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may >>>> also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or >>>> riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and >>>> surveillance is a constructive combination. >>>> >>>> There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more >>>> appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet >>>> words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must >>>> better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite >>>> behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown >>>> interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from >>>> what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. >>>> >>>> This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon >>>> a mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and >>>> introspection, I will never accept that reality. >>>> >>>> To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say >>>> "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers >>>> and pins." >>>> >>>> I just do not believe this narrative. >>>> >>>> We cannot give up. >>>> >>>> Is there a fight ahead? Yes. >>>> >>>> Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most >>>> definitely, yes. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Tom Richardson < >>>> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>> >>>> >>>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>>> >>>> Hello Annalisa >>>> Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost >>>> none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of >>>> human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour >>>> acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. >>>> >>>> - What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment >>>> created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the >>>> widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such >>>> learning takes place?'. >>>> - What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these >>>> changes for the *perezhivanie *of the learner, which shapes her >>>> social being and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', >>>> 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? >>>> >>>> Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't >>>> yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp >>>> what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. >>>> I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is >>>> within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. >>>> >>>> Kind regards >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello Tom, >>>> >>>> Thank you for posting the link. >>>> >>>> I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly >>>> dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is >>>> not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking >>>> pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended >>>> into our lives. >>>> >>>> I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It >>>> reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and >>>> resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has >>>> become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. >>>> >>>> At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for >>>> power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. >>>> >>>> Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill >>>> Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as >>>> the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment >>>> facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include >>>> Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding >>>> flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his >>>> billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). >>>> >>>> I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to >>>> encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee >>>> to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that >>>> coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. >>>> >>>> Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general >>>> problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling >>>> perspective. >>>> >>>> She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of >>>> COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to >>>> control the world. >>>> >>>> Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness >>>> of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. >>>> Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is >>>> the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to >>>> deliberate the way forward. >>>> >>>> As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to >>>> control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, >>>> or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in >>>> ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be >>>> construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency >>>> to decide how to use our tools. >>>> >>>> Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. >>>> Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for >>>> disabled children with his goals for flattening the classroom into >>>> two-dimensional online learning screens. He will never be able to walk >>>> around that law. >>>> >>>> So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply >>>> does not hold water for me. >>>> >>>> I hope this might be a little encouraging. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of mike cole >>> > >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>> >>>> >>>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>>> Hello Tom Richardson >>>> This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating >>>> Chat Project" that has just finished its >>>> planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human >>>> development, and theories of "Development >>>> in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced >>>> by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. >>>> Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as >>>> to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. >>>> The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of >>>> essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. >>>> In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the >>>> most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced >>>> a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of >>>> most members of this discussion over the years, >>>> is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations >>>> have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting >>>> a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). >>>> >>>> We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social >>>> science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp >>>> speed and its invisible. >>>> >>>> Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about >>>> for 100 years. >>>> Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start >>>> providing working models of effective practices that do NOT >>>> assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. >>>> >>>> Thanks for asking. >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson < >>>> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greetings Xmca-ers >>>> I would like to raise a question. >>>> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major >>>> questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, >>>> democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international >>>> competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan >>>> approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to >>>> these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been >>>> happening recently: >>>> >>>> >>>> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks >>>> after that article appeared, he described >>>> the >>>> ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the >>>> country had been forced to cobble together during this public health >>>> emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. >>>> >>>> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do >>>> kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better >>>> remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? >>>> will help kids learn better.? " >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!Tjf28eHnOL5f1WbeRh-7EHG8XCVoRTsqz5df6xnEngXORjztYkl0rW452WS2qbVj_Ug5Ww$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Just asking >>>> Tom Richardson >>>> Middlesbrough UK >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what >>>> fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>> For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. >>>> For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>>> For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net >>>> >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200527/386f4476/attachment.html From leah@labvanced.com Wed May 27 08:13:38 2020 From: leah@labvanced.com (Lee Leah) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 17:13:38 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] What makes Labvanced unique in terms of features Message-ID: <709951590592200@mail.yandex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200527/c9c312de/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed May 27 09:25:14 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 10:25:14 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: <78D4E5A7-6661-4F59-A41F-A1FD92995FD6@gmail.com> <29749880-98FE-47D7-84E1-841BB6B9B6C5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <32E7CCCD-69BC-4AB8-AC9A-E1A8F581835C@gmail.com> Glad it was helpful, Tom:) > On May 27, 2020, at 3:24 AM, Tom Richardson wrote: > > Good Morning Henry > Your confusions and eventual clarity explain and help a great deal, mirroring my own as I read Damasio's account. I shall dig further with gratitude to you. > Best > Tom > > BoWen > > > On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 22:29, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > Hi Tom, > No problem enabling your laziness with my shallow reading of Spinzoa. I confess that I have read nothing directly from Spinoza, but have read about his philosphy and about his life. It?s been a while since I read Looking for Spinoza: Joy Sorrow and the Feeling Brain. I am looking at the book now and am amazed with how much highlighting there is and how little of it I remember in detail. What got me into it was the distinction between emotions and feelings. Damasio is a neuroscientist, and the book are full of the neural correlates of affective states, being the ?easy? problem of consciousness. The ?hard? problem of explaining the reason any arrangements at all of matter can possibly result in consciousness is not explained. What got me into it was the distinction between emotions and feelings. Damasio associates emotions (fear, anger, surprise, disgust, sadness and happiness) with primal parts of the brain connected to homeostasis of the organism. Emotions are evoked prior to the more narrative experience of feelings. To tell the truth, I am still not entirely clear on the distinction, largely because he explains the difference through case studies of people who have suffered damage to different parts of the brain, losing me. Maybe I got it at the time, but looking through the book now, it?s not so clear. One interesting thing is that we can have social emotions, which means homeostasis is not just internal to the human organism. > > Anyway, the book is worth digging through. Hope that helps a little. Whew! > > Henry > > >> On May 26, 2020, at 1:31 PM, Tom Richardson > wrote: >> >> >> Hi Henry >> Thank you for your thoughtful, fact full reply. >> >> It would save me continuing to plough through Damasio's well-written but fairly lengthy book 'Looking for Spinoza', if you were to send me a brief personal summary of what he means intellectually for you - (or am I being lazy?) - since it is always illuminating to understand what our thinkers mean to/for our peers. I have not broached Baruch S's work for myself. >> >> Best wishes >> Tom >> >> On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 17:09, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: >> Hi Tom, >> Thank you for your rich, well-thought-out response to my question. And thank you for recognizing that I wanted it to be generous. Perhaps a quibble is that you associate the first stage of Stalinist rule as capitalist, rather than industrial, as I understand it. I think that?s important. Stalin?s top-down planning had the same hall marks as Mao?s, Castro?s and the current North Korean leader. I appreciate your optimism that any system devised by humans can create human thriving that is not destructive of of humanity itself. We seem to have boxed ourselves into a corner by destroying our niche, the world. COVID-19 and climate change, IMHO, we are all, indvidually and collectively complicit. I hope that we can get beyond romanticism and cynicism in meeting our fate. I think that Vygotsky and Spinoza represent what can come of wrestling with open hearts and clear thinking with our condition. >> Henry >> >> >>> On May 26, 2020, at 3:09 AM, Tom Richardson > wrote: >>> >>> Good Morning (GMT+1) Henry >>> >>> I'm touched by your mail today. My life experience does not include such practical engagement as yours, with any of the major social disruptions / attempts at new organisation, of the C20. >>> >>> It seems dismissively facile to criticise amazing historic re-organisations of social life like the Cuban Revolution, but it is necessary. Otherwise the same mistakes will happen again and again. >>> >>> The political strand which I accept as most accurately analysing historical and current reality characterises the liberation movements (particularities, differences, I'm ignoring for sake of quick explanation) post 1900, as nationalist, and mostly state socialist/capitalist. IE they are top-down, state directed anti-imperialist/colonialist movements. The self-organisation and free association of the producers that is the essence of communist organisation is absent. Often there is some commitment to a Kautskyan / Stalinist "two stage theory", requiring full capitalist development to prepare the ground for the next step of proletarian rule - eg in the South African struggle. We can see where that has led so far. >>> >>> But the analysts I accept, posit that socialism in one country cannot be created nor sustained while the basis of total global social reproduction is the money based economy, taken forward by the capital-labour relationship of commodity production - the so-called 'free market' whose anarchy ensures an absence of any organised relationship to global human needs, since it is driven by the value-based circulation of commodities dominating all global production. >>> >>> The freedom is that of the individual / joint-stock company in the pursuit of surplus value. And, yes, Marx, does provide an analysis of "money" which indicates how a future system of production would/could not be based on the use of money and therefore wages. >>> >>> There is so much literature about this to be investigated, (much of it written by US authors, extraordinarily, given the Chicago School and the legacy of McCarthy). I started with Engels 'Socialism, Utopian and Scientific' which explained in a way that my pro-market, individualist history teacher could not, why the Anti-Corn Law League had 'won' and the Chartists had failed. >>> >>> Anyway, I am only recycling, from my own limited understanding, the sort of analysis that the original authors of the literature I value provide in overwhelming but convincing detail. >>> >>> While the way forward towards a future that communists see as essential if the planet is not to be destroyed, or at least human life on it, is not in prospect as far as any realist can foresee, at present, the reality of the Barbarism that Capital brings (together with the technology necessary for the possibility of real change), is clear every moment in our lives. >>> >>> Human resistance and creative answers to apparently insoluble problems, and the reality that the working class has nothing to gain that sustains real fulfilling human life from capital's continuation, sustain my knowledge that my commitment to moving beyond capitalism, is both essential and realistic. >>> >>> I trust that this attempted answer to your generous question makes sufficient sense . >>> >>> Best wishes >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 22:26, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: >>> Hi Tom, >>> What is it about ?free market economies? is the cause of wage slavery? Is there at least some jiggering of the market that could end ?destructive anarchy?? Do we do away with money? And I am serious here. I take it that capitalism is the problem, not the market, or money. I was in the doctoral program in economics at UC Berkeley during the late 60s. My concentrations were comparative economic systems and economic planning. I dropped out after only getting a masters degree in economics there, and went to Cuba to cut sugar cane with the Venceremos Brigade. I felt strongly Che?s call to make the New Man (though women were there too, and check out the film ?Lucia?) of that era, but I think that central planning (Castro?) of the Cuban economy had a destructive and anarchic side. Castro apologized for his mistakes during the year of 10 million tons of sugar cane production, but the damage was done. Cuba has been a shining light in some ways for me and others, not least the health care workers, the original Doctors Without Borders, that beautifully exemplify the new human. >>> >>> So, really, what do we replace markets and money with? Or is it the ?free? part that?s the rub. >>> >>> Henry >>> >>> >>>> On May 25, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Tom Richardson > wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello Annalisa >>>> >>>> "All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is:" >>>> >>>> Since I have suggested neither of the alternatives you state as the only way forward, it would surely invalidate your further argument. >>>> >>>> But I must admit that the idea of thirty thousand working class families and then some, organising to change the wage-slavery employment system that they are exploited by, would be a great idea. >>>> Here's to that day, as the freely associated producers of our social life organise to end the destructive anarchy of our present free-market economies. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 19:58, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>>> Hi Tom and others, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I agree that Capitalism is bad, and that it causes wealth and poverty in extremes. Which then creates social injustices that would be much lessened with less economic inequality. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I do not think that I ever said (did I?) to ignore the traditional power structures. I said that every day we negotiate the power structures. And when we decide it's not working we can create change. That possibility is always an option, but it demands diligence, discipline, and discovery. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is: >>>> >>>> 1. it's futile. Give up. The structures will always be against us. Settle in to your given hand of bad fortune. >>>> >>>> 2. grab a gun and kill as many people sitting in seats of power (which means the chair of power remains to be replaced by someone else). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Forgive me if I reject both those options. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As I said, perhaps in another post, the liberal position of citing data and objecting to the existence of that data, isn't going to make power structures change. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What would make change is for those 15K-30K families to organize and among themselves decide how and what they can do to make their lot better. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It's called organizing. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Civil disobedience works because it is civil. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >>>> Sent: Monday, May 25, 2020 3:25 AM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>> >>>> [EXTERNAL] >>>> >>>> Hi Annalisa >>>> Good Morning - just a correction to figures about poverty in our town - I should have been more careful,; fortunately the figures from memory were an underestimate rather than an exaggeration: >>>> Almost 30,000 children are living in poverty across Teesside - and half are from working families. >>>> >>>> And stark new statistics reveal that the picture is worst in central Middlesbrough - as hyper-local, official Government data reveals three quarters of all kids in one neighbourhood are living below the breadline. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> >>>> BoWen >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 22:17, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>>> Alas, hello again Tom (& VO's), >>>> >>>> While I accept your assessment of our differences in approaches and understandings, I do not see that it is obvious that there is no meeting point. >>>> >>>> For example, innovation exists in science and in art, in business it is entrepreneurship. I believe that there are good things that come from business entrepreneurship, and there are bad things too. We love that art and science are innovative, when they are, but there can be failings there too. >>>> >>>> The captains of industry who believe they are self-made men, and who believe that anyone who decides for oneself being on the assembly line of the manufacturing floor is only a dumb pawn in a larger game, would be in my estimation the worst that kind of human that entrepreneurship generates. Elon Musk is one example, perhaps. >>>> >>>> As much as I likely would not want Elon Musk over for dinner, I can admire that he has been able to steward the creation of an electric car in the midst of a sleepwalking auto industry that cannot envision automobiles without a gas-eating combustible engine. >>>> >>>> At the same time what he gives he takes away: I'm not sure that I can ever get on board a space rocket to inhabit Mars. I actually object to that project because as long as we haven't worked out how to feed everyone on this earthship, we should not be escaping it by polluting another planet, even if, as Carl Sagan told us, there are billions and billions of them out there. >>>> >>>> "They" in the form of (other they)'s do not have power unless we give them that power. That power is always up for debate every minute, every day, every year. >>>> >>>> Given that there are now 38 million unemployed in the US (I can't name the numbers elsewhere and I'm sorry about that), that's like the entire population of California being on the dole. It is a significant number, and it may be that many of those people start their own businesses, not because of education or desire, but of necessity. >>>> >>>> Many of the young and unemployed are educated. That could be a combustible cocktail, depending upon their self-awareness and outward worldview. >>>> >>>> One strange article in NYT described a scene designer who has been out of work since the health order shutdown, and hasn't received any unemployment yet because she filed in New Jersey, while her partner did because he filed in New York. Then she got an offer to work in a company who is making ... wait for it.... facemasks, so now she is toiling over a machine, sewing facemasks. >>>> >>>> I don't think I could live in that situation because of the stark irony, if that is a just word for that. I mourn the loss of her creativity, but I hope it is temporary. >>>> >>>> Now out of necessity, she's had to travel that path. So I can agree with you that because of the government order to shut down business, and because a company who hired her decided to make facemasks, because what other ingenious product would or could one manufacture right now? they have shaped her working life. Have they shaped her social life, though. I mean completely? She still has her contacts on her iPhone, she likely returns home to her partner to cook dinner and search for more work. Her desires and dreams are likely impacted, but has she completely given up? Should she? >>>> >>>> I am not pro-revolution, only because they create rivers of blood in streets, etc. I'm more of the mind that incremental choices can together create a tipping point of social change. >>>> >>>> For example, consider the tiny house movement. Or how young people will share resources, or reevaluate buying things, or what they eat. >>>> >>>> People make the best lemonade only with the best lemons. >>>> >>>> There is going to have to be a reckoning of having so many unemployed people. It can't be ignored. To just pretend that everyone will be happy with a lower wage job (lower than when the pandemic hit), is only going to drive people to desperate measures. The country will want to put people to work and this could be an opportunity for collective change, for creating meaningful jobs. >>>> >>>> Because who wants a civil war. >>>> >>>> So there will have to be some sort of appeasement for the social reality that people must have their basic needs met. The temporary stimulus is a lifeline, but the real economic difficulties will start when people start to return to work, and there are less jobs with the result being there is less money circulating in the economy overall. With interest rates so low, and pumping more money into the economy is only going to raise the prices of things, possibly wages, but not the buying power. >>>> >>>> People will cut bait from the lives they once had, and simplify. Moving to less crowded cities and towns, returning to live with parents. Perhaps creating cooperatives. One area for discovery with so much time on one's hands is handcrafting. I think there will be a blooming of new businesses that incorporate *real* labor. This may also usher in more vocational training programs. >>>> >>>> One article I read today discussed the eating of meat, and how it is a destructive social practice including its impact on climate change. Largely that industry depends upon of automation, and now with slaughterhouses being virus hotspots, do you want to trust that the meat you buy is not tainted with COVID? Or that you are forcing a worker into an unsafe work environment and catch the virus? >>>> >>>> If people were decide to stop eating meat, or reduce even its consumption because it's too expensive, and if the government stops giving subsidies to these agro-corporations, then these polluting companies will fail. That would be great news. >>>> >>>> Then the writer pointed out that if we returned to diets higher in plant-based food, that would increase demand for real farms, real entrepreneurship and generate jobs, as it takes more people to grow vegetables, than it does to raise pigs or chickens. We would also become healthier as a population. There is already a network of farmer's markets for local produce, so it may mean a growth in that area. >>>> >>>> I suppose what I'm trying to say is I do not think it is so cut and dried that we are subject to the worst forever. I think with so much time on our hands people are free to organize and decide to help one another in mutual aid. We do not have to rely on traditional power structures, and we do not have to resort to bloody revolutions. >>>> >>>> Depending upon what you are looking for in life, there is a third way arising. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >>>> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 4:24 AM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>> >>>> [EXTERNAL] >>>> >>>> Hello once more Annalisa >>>> >>>> Our difference of approach to and understanding of the modern state and the production of social life obviously admits of no meeting point as far as I read your astonishingly wide-ranging and impassioned response. >>>> >>>> Without the simplicity of my reply intending to signal a facile sarcasm, I must bluntly state that I begin from the acceptance that nefarious or not, 'They', in the sense of government and corporations, do have the power to control and shape the organisation of social life. We can, if enough socio-political pressure can be brought to bear through social movements, rebellions, revolts, shift certain aspects of that fashioning of our lives. >>>> >>>> But at present, the relationship of wage slavery imposed by Capital ,and the society shaped by that relationship, are dominant throughout the life of our planet. >>>> >>>> Sad at such an impasse, since we both wish the best for humanity >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 21:46, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>>> Hi Tom, and VO's of XMCA >>>> >>>> Concerning your questions about our new normal now that COVID19 is with us and here to stay, I think your guess is as good as anyone's. I am not sure if we as humans have ever been burdened with such an event as this, and at the same time are able to watch the unfolding events and respond (or not respond if you are a stable genius) quickly from the feedback of data, news, anecdotes, and other forms of perception of how the virus is impacting us. >>>> >>>> What is worth remembering as well, is that epidemiologists have been warning us for decades that a pandemic was a clear an present danger to the way we live and negotiate the modern world. We see in sensurround how right they were. >>>> >>>> As I consider your question, I have to think that people mow might be sorted into two classes, well at least two classes: >>>> >>>> People who seem to think the virus is just another flu and once we find a vaccine, all will return to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday or pre-pandemic time you mark your calendar as before the pandemic hit, which of course depends upon where on the earth you are located). >>>> People who seem to think the virus has changed us and there will never be going back to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday...) >>>> I suspect the Americans of the neo-conservative persuasion who have been motivated to protest health order social distancing believe that not only this is a conspiracy to control fredom-loving people, but that we should return to Christmas 2019 as soon as possible, they are of Cohort 1. >>>> >>>> I think Cohort 2 are going to be people who take in the facts and the data and are actively attempting to sort out where do we go from here. I feel confident you are in Cohort 2, as ar most people on this list. >>>> >>>> Now, as Carol M has pointed out, in a lot of ways our discussion about online learning is a first world concern, for those who have an internet connection that is ubiquitous not only at home, but at school, work, on the bus, on planes, in cafes, and other public gathering spaces, like city halls, or town squares. That's another reason why it's hard to take Klein seriously, in terms of *tone*. >>>> >>>> I recall reading something from George Lakoff when he indicates that there is a liberal stance that seems to believe that if one objects loudly enough with "sky is falling" rhetoric and then feed out various data, that using this strategy the audience will become motivated to protest in the streets, write letters to congress, run for office, or whatever civil action must be done, and with alacrity. It doesn't work. I do not think being against anything ever "works." I think only being for something works. >>>> >>>> Let's look at Klein's article as an example. If she were to be rhetorically successful she would outline the problem she identifies (Mr. Schmidt goes to Washington), but instead of all that is wrong, talk about what can be right. Not to say she should agree with Mr. Schmidt and his ways. >>>> >>>> I feel her article could be a lot heavier on what works with education and how to enhance that further. She does mention how money should b used more for school nurses, smaller classrooms, etc. This is where she could have expanded beautifully into a viable solution to spark everyone's imaginations. But she didn't do that. She is more motivated it seems to mark Mr. Schmidt and his technological minions to masterminding a New World Order that will steal our souls and tether us to the Matrix from now until the end of time. >>>> >>>> I also feel she would have been more conducive to discourse by writing an open letter to Cuomo and Schmidt, and to invite a response. This is also leading by example to cultivate democratic processes that are near and dear to all of us. Instead she "otherfies" them, and this is also not useful. And I am not saying that as a stance to defend Mr. Schmidt or Gov Cuomo, in any way. >>>> >>>> So back to your question, I do not think that there is any way we will be extricated from this reality of COVID 19. We will have to pick our stones across the river carefully so that none of us slips and is carried down the rapids. I feel it is more useful to say we are a family of one kind, and all of us have to stay together to make it across. And that all of us deserves a life jacket as a measure of survival because not all of us will get to the other side without getting wet, or falling in. >>>> >>>> The tension between CEOs and their contempt for the slow-food of democracy is well known. If only they could persuade all of us to eat fast food, then they could take over the world as the next McDonalds, in terms of technological vision, whatever a McDonalds would look like on a screen, as an app, whathaveyou. >>>> >>>> Unfortunately what seems to elude folks who have not worked in tech, or those who see tech as just another new Ford in the garage, is that technology is always in flux. There is always development of new hardware that needs new software written to use it, so there is a double-quicksand of events upon which technology is founded (and funded) upon. That's what Moore's Law is about. >>>> >>>> Technology in order to "be itself" must always move fleetingly, like the shark must to breathe. Technology will never be able to last the halls of government. For that reason, any rendition of technology in government (and school systems for that matter) will be like bad combovers that are meant to convince us that we are now more attractive and appealing (not meaning to offend those who live by their combovers...) >>>> >>>> Where I feel technology could best serve us is to help create grassroots democracy tools, to support what we know is possible and could even threaten the basis for representative democracy and bring it closer to a straight agora democracy. >>>> >>>> Some might call this anarchy, and I could argue along the lines of David Graeber that anarchy is a more pure form of democracy practiced in all "primitive" or "ancient" cultures, it's not a perfect fit, and I intend to make that reference loosely. My point is to say there should be what David K calls involution of what government is, to what government was, and to supplant that, or rather what causes those parts to be pushed to the margins is to imagine a government where there is mor connection to agora-like venues where one person speaking in a Zoom-like frame is of equal stature of any other person speaking in the frame. One can sort of imagine this with the Zoom-empowered senate hearings which I watched for a while on the NYT front page. It was really strange to me. I suppose the danger is that we get to hear Sally Mc? from Arizona use her time to blame the Chinese for the virus, etc, for more time that we would like. But that's democracy. >>>> >>>> So one fallout could be that grade-school kids and their resulting perezhivanie from Zoom-based classrooms, will adopt the tool for political discussions as adults. Might that be a good thing? >>>> >>>> Maybe. >>>> >>>> At the same time, do you remember a book that came out in the mid90s called "Silicon Snake Oil"? This is yet another phenomenon of technology, that people oozing charisma will claw their way to the microphone and pitch an idea about the next vaporware, who will then make unsubstantiated promises and claims directed to feed our fantasies and dreams, and who will then abscond with all the money, only to request not to look at the man behind the green curtain, or if pulled by the ear into a senate hearing will say "I thought it was a good idea at the time." etc. >>>> >>>> I think that is the view of Klein about all technology, and there are merits in that, but there are also other ways to think about it. >>>> >>>> This article about Marc Benioff in Wired recently discusses about the social entrepreneurship of his wealth:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.wired.com/story/gospel-of-wealth-according-to-marc-benioff/__;!!Mih3wA!TBGitr6wRLwoej43FajHUt5RN63wspuNolCfAsj9XknIs5FTTr8Y2Vl0TkOit8x9uKxhHQ$ >>>> Who by they way now owns the magazine Time, the way Jeff Bezos bought the WaPo, and Lauren Jobs bought The Altlantic, and Pierre Omidyar funded The Intercept. >>>> >>>> I do invite, as much as you can stomach, anyway, for any educators or other members of our vibrant list to make regular reading of Wired Magazine, which is a far more interesting read on technology than something like Fast Company. I encourage this reading, if only to know the enemy, as it were. Wired articles are far more nuanced and sophisticated than when the magazine first got off the ground in the early 90s. I find reading it helps to connect some dots for those who do not consume technology culture all the time. Just pick and choose what you are curious about. >>>> >>>> We must become familiar with the vernacular of technology if we want a hand in the game of how it plays in education, our stomping grounds. This will require effort on our part. That is not to say we must adopt all the shiny new toys. But we can be like a Consumer Report for education, and evaluate and measure the good the bad and the ugly of technology and its use in the edu sphere. >>>> >>>> We cannot sit on our laurels and wait for someone else to decide for us how technology will be deployed. That stance is what the mythology of inevitable technology rests and self-perpetuates. >>>> >>>> We must be more tech literate, and we must be the first to coin words and how they manifest in edu venues. What works what doesn't. I don't see any other way to fight back and to keep control of the educational narrative, where of course we want to hardwire zopeds, manifest and lead critical and nourishing perezhivanie, and model by example sterling mediated learning experiences for students and teachers. >>>> >>>> What other projects can there be? >>>> >>>> For me, this is "fighting back" because it makes the sort of shark-like entrepreneur recede for a time (as they will always be looking for a way into edu's tax coffers), because we are successful getting education right. >>>> >>>> I do not accept that entreprenuership is what took the sanctity from teaching and learning. But that's an argument to be made. I feel it is only one side of the argument. >>>> >>>> Once I had an male acquaintance tell me that one reason women are in inferior roles is because they let this happen to them. As you might imagine, I had a real hard time with that argument and I had to clench my jaw to now spew various vitriol upon him. But after I thought about it, in a narrow sense he is not wrong because not it is true that enough women in history identified the value to struggle for rights even if they would not see equality in their own lifetimes. There are many explanations for why that did not happen, that are not facile to depict. But then I also had to think of how much women's struggles have succeeded because they did decide to not let this happen to them anymore. But now women are learning in the US, anyway, that nothing fought for is a permanent fixture, and so we must become resigned to the perpetual struggle for equality, as all marginalized people must. >>>> >>>> So now I direct this to our context of education in the venue of online learning. This is not an easy question, and it is not intended to trivialize the work and efforts of many on this list, but it is instead a question of inner reflection, or a taking of inventory of one's own life: >>>> >>>> How much has each of you done to take measure and fight for meaningful education in the classroom? >>>> >>>> Could you have done more? Can you do more? >>>> >>>> Then the same for asking yourself how have you integrated technology appropriately into your learning methods and general perezhivanie. >>>> >>>> I hope this might provide some further food for thought concerning preservation on the sanctity of learning and instruction in the classroom. >>>> >>>> So all this is to reply to you Tom, that in short, the nefarious They can only take control if we let them. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> ps please excuse all typos, which are all made on my own. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 11:26 AM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>> >>>> [EXTERNAL] >>>> >>>> Hi Annalisa >>>> >>>> Thank you for providing the details of your deep and committed background in distance / online learning. Mine is obviously shallow, which must have triggered you and 'Robsub' somewhat. >>>> >>>> But my questioning is in the newer context of the Covid19 threats to global society and the solutions being sought to extricate us from them. >>>> >>>> Governor Cuomo's conversation with Schmidt to examine solutions to the problems of present coping and future emergence from the pandemic is understandable. Two persons with power and a need to act, discuss what technology (in its widest hard- and software aspects) has to offer. >>>> >>>> In a democracy we can assess the solutions they propose and shape them to what we know to be as near to optimal for our society as possible. Your assertion of the efficacy of our agency which Klein seems to deny, >>>> with her politico-economic caveats. >>>> >>>> Schmidt has an evangelism for the potential of technology, but expressed with such restraint - he's no zealot. He also, in the video of the ECNY conversation with Marie-Josee Kravis, sees the lack of 'simplicity' in the three-tier democratic system of the US. He is a CEO with an organisation geared to problem-analysis, solution choices, and operational capability which can be put into action without delaying debate. He expressed no hostility to 'democracy' but as he said, it does not work simply. >>>> >>>> Klein reminds us to be wary if not alarmed, not because she is despairing (I believe), but because that direct entrepreneurial drive has profit making as its unavoidable aim. Whatever Schmidt's humanistic feelings, if profit doesn't result from his and his companies actions, they will not survive. That competitive drive is also present in his aspirations for international dominance (see his remarks on the rise of China's technology). >>>> >>>> So far, the sort of distance / online learning you have worked on, has been nested in the context of family and (normal) school life. That normality had implicit in it human values, customs and structures, whatever differences of class, race, gender and culture were present. The melding of state and enterprise in a newly-developing novel (5G?)high-tech 'solution' to mediating education presents a situation which need to be examined I believe. And my query, in that 'Kleinian' context was looking for answers from those, like yourself, with wide experience of previous technological 'answers' and their implications for the results within the learner. >>>> >>>> I affirm, along with you, the irrepressible resistance and sheer cantankerousness we humans bring to unjust situations. But such fighting back will often be unsuccessful in its aims, when the need to reduce labour time with new technology is driving events - Luddism and machine looms? Our human drive to change and adapt, our use of our agency to create or alter our lives must not be suppressed. But what Klein is reminding us of is just how tilted is the balance of power - the power of the state and behind it, the drive from the vast corporate world, for profit. Our agency is so often undone by the arbitrary intervention of those forces. >>>> >>>> Those are the forces which have destroyed what you name the 'sanctity' of teaching and learning. I would name it the basic need for those goals, but we share it. With the need to re-invigorate just such a precious resource, we will continue to fight like hell. Despite their mere humanness, corporations and states at present have greater knowledge and power than 'mere' citizens. My intervention in xmca discussion was really to say "They're looking to take even more control of daily life. >>>> Within academia, you can analyse how they are making such changes happen and continue to alert the rest of us, if you fear the consequences of their changes." >>>> >>>> Best wishes >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 22:29, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>>> Hi Tom, >>>> >>>> May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? >>>> >>>> Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed by SL's prospects. >>>> >>>> In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. >>>> >>>> Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. >>>> >>>> What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. >>>> >>>> I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of associations of place with learning. >>>> >>>> In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and constrain learning to books. >>>> >>>> We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. >>>> >>>> I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of learning. >>>> >>>> I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged learning venues . Not with grade school. >>>> >>>> I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. >>>> >>>> I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. >>>> >>>> What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!TBGitr6wRLwoej43FajHUt5RN63wspuNolCfAsj9XknIs5FTTr8Y2Vl0TkOit8yNMhGtMg$ >>>> >>>> It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. >>>> >>>> It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. >>>> >>>> Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. >>>> >>>> If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be integrated with existing models. >>>> >>>> If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. >>>> >>>> One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and surveillance is a constructive combination. >>>> >>>> There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. >>>> >>>> This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and introspection, I will never accept that reality. >>>> >>>> To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers and pins." >>>> >>>> I just do not believe this narrative. >>>> >>>> We cannot give up. >>>> >>>> Is there a fight ahead? Yes. >>>> >>>> Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most definitely, yes. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>> >>>> [EXTERNAL] >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello Annalisa >>>> Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. >>>> What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such learning takes place?'. >>>> What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes for the perezhivanie of the learner, which shapes her social being and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? >>>> Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. >>>> I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. >>>> >>>> Kind regards >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>>> Hello Tom, >>>> >>>> Thank you for posting the link. >>>> >>>> I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended into our lives. >>>> >>>> I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. >>>> >>>> At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. >>>> >>>> Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). >>>> >>>> I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. >>>> >>>> Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. >>>> >>>> She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control the world. >>>> >>>> Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to deliberate the way forward. >>>> >>>> As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency to decide how to use our tools. >>>> >>>> Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. >>>> >>>> So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply does not hold water for me. >>>> >>>> I hope this might be a little encouraging. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>> >>>> [EXTERNAL] >>>> >>>> Hello Tom Richardson >>>> This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat Project" that has just finished its >>>> planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human development, and theories of "Development >>>> in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. >>>> Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. >>>> The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. >>>> In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced >>>> a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most members of this discussion over the years, >>>> is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). >>>> >>>> We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. >>>> >>>> Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about for 100 years. >>>> Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing working models of effective practices that do NOT >>>> assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. >>>> >>>> Thanks for asking. >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson > wrote: >>>> Greetings Xmca-ers >>>> I would like to raise a question. >>>> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening recently: >>>> >>>> >>>> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks after that article appeared, he described the ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the country had been forced to cobble together during this public health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. >>>> >>>> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!TBGitr6wRLwoej43FajHUt5RN63wspuNolCfAsj9XknIs5FTTr8Y2Vl0TkOit8zLquMTKw$ >>>> >>>> Just asking >>>> Tom Richardson >>>> Middlesbrough UK >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>> For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu . >>>> For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . >>>> For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net . >>>> >>>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200527/7e9d3e76/attachment.html From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Wed May 27 09:32:40 2020 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 17:32:40 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi David Fortunately I was listening to this thread, so "I hear you!". I shall dig to see what I find about Spinoza in LSV. Big thank you. Tom BoWen On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 22:43, David Kellogg wrote: > Rob-- > > Thanks--my link works okay, but it's probably because I'm already logged > in. So I replaced the link with yours. > > For a fine example of witless misunderstanding justified with willfull > misrepresentation that was used to drive Bernstein's work out of the > academy, see the work of Peter Jones, referenced in my article. > > Peter E. Jones (2013) Bernstein's ?codes? and the linguistics of > ?deficit?, Language and Education, 27:2, 161-179, DOI: > 10.1080/09500782.2012.760587 > > Notice the scare quotes around "code" (which Bernstein did > use) and likewise the term "deficit" (which Bernstein explicitly > repudiated). Clever, huh? > > But Jones doesn't make this stuff up. He mostly just borrows from the long > liberal anti-Marxist American tradition of this kind of attack, going back > to William Labov. For example, the "linguist" Jones cites against Halliday > is actually a historian of psychology (Jonathan Edwards) who argues that > some cultures can have completely degenerate moral codes but very advanced > languages, such as cannibal savages! > > A few years ago we were discussing an article here on xmca by Marilyn > Fleer and I asked her if she was a Bernsteinian. I have always considered > myself one, and I was genuinely curious to find others of a similar > persuasion; Bernstein's name was not so blackened in Australia as it was in > America, and Ruqaiya Hasan, who taught in Sydney, was always proud to > acknowledge Bernstein as her colleague and mentor. Marilyn was a little > indignant. > > Michael-- > > Here in Korea the main way of giving on-line classes is just uploading > audio file which the student then listen to when they have time and giving > lots of homework. Curiously, some of the kids prefer this. ALL of my > students dislike using the camera. I am not sure what to make of this... > > Every crisis is a turning point. Education has gleefully saddled three > cash cows: foreign students, college sports, and diploma mills, and all > three of these are now hamburger. On the one hand, Zoom classes and audio > classes allow us to provide universal college education for almost > nothing--if we can solve the mediational problems. On the other, pinkspace > classes can easily be social-distanced--if we can just make undergraduate > classes the size of graduate seminars (with more classes outside in good > weather). But both solutions--universal online tertiary education and > extending the graduate seminar experience to undergraduates--will > inevitably hinge on the outcome of the struggle to make education an > intellectual public institution instead of a semi-intellectual luxury > brand, and this in turn will hinge on the struggle for preventive medicine > based on foresight instead of astonishment. > > Oi, Tom! (Way over on the other thread, so I have to shout!) > > Vygotsky writes a LOT about Spinoza; his sister was doing her PhD on the > guy when he was still in high school and he went to stay with her at Moscow > University and caught the bug. He was working on a vast tome on how > Spinoza's work could be retooled to give us a Marxist (materialist, monist, > but dialectical) theory of higher emotions when he died. We are translating > it all into Korean, and I am trying to write a preface. Spinoza believed in > sentient meat: "Deus, Sive Natura" ("God, that is to say, Nature...") Above > all, though, Spinoza believed that emotions are anything that increases or > decreases our ability to do things. The interesting thing, which I am still > trying to wrap my head around, is that one of those things that does this > is the idea of the emotion itself--the perezhivanie. > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WS4vlJx2rDZU0P5dovtpuWtE0NToMFrvo87-xIZ0Vu5a-g4KbPNwn3CA_KrgCdKYnDKqJA$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WS4vlJx2rDZU0P5dovtpuWtE0NToMFrvo87-xIZ0Vu5a-g4KbPNwn3CA_KrgCdLGQJirxQ$ > > > > > On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 10:51 PM Glassman, Michael > wrote: > >> Hello David, Elizabeth, Annalisa, Rob, others, >> >> Well social presence and teacher presence are two completely different >> lines of research and thinking even though they sound alike. Teacher >> presence comes from localized classroom research while social presence >> comes from the communication field I believe sometime in the 1960s. Lately >> I have begun to think of teacher presence as similar to Bourdeiu's cultural >> capital. Our education system teaches certain groups of children how to >> read and get in sync with teachers from their more subtle physical signs so >> that they become more successful later in their school careers and in life. >> Many of the more successful children also get practice in reading these >> different signs at home. It is the old adage, don't listen to what I say, >> watch what I do. Social presence on the other hand is more related to our >> own understanding of our own communications and the value of those >> communications. We have a sense of what we are doing from those who are >> watching us (in the broad sense), and this sense changes as our sense of >> those who are watching us changes not only how we act but the investment we >> make in what we do changes accordingly. I see it all the time in teachers, >> who they are changes completely when they get up in from of a room of >> students. Just a mind experiment. The next time you read an XMCA post see >> if you can imagine a few of the members standing over your should observing >> you are you are reading with the expectation of some response. See how this >> might change your behavior. >> >> As for Zoom. I just think it is not a good tool for education and the >> reason we use it is illusory (because it recreates a place-based experience >> so we are more comfortable with it?). Zoom's purpose is not education in >> the sense of knowledge sharing and knowledge creation. Its proximal purpose >> I believe was to sell to corporations and such for meetings so they would >> not have to spend as much on travel. Its distal purpose, meeting platforms >> in general, was so individuals could engage in multiple activities related >> to the topic but not focused on the topic. I mean it is kind of cool, you >> can have a meeting where you wear a tie on top and boxer shorts below. And >> we are sometimes a talking head culture. But it is by nature very >> unilateral and expert oriented. Do we have to develop a whole new cultural >> capital oeuvre for Zoom meetings. We must make sure that those who are >> ahead stay ahead. Annalisa in answer to your question no education or Zoom, >> I worry about binary choices such as this. Maybe we should be asking >> ourselves how we got here in the first place. Why are these our only two >> choices right now, and many attempts using Meeting platforms are failing as >> they seem to be, how do we move forward from here. Why aren't we asking >> more questions, trying to understand how our great digital experiment is >> failing education. And speaking to Rob's poignant use of the term pink >> space, why is the lack of universal broadband dominating discussions. I >> think about the whole one to one movement and I really question why we >> leaped ahead to this without a reckoning over the need to have every corner >> of our society equitably wired (spoiler alert: because instead of >> corporations making oodles of money our society will have to spend oodles >> of money). So Annalisa I got back to your question, is it better to have no >> education or Zoom and I ask if you stepped on a nail would it be better to >> put on a band-aid to stop the bleeding or to figure our how to save your >> life (I know the answer will be both but where do I prioritize). >> >> Michael >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> On Behalf Of robsub@ariadne.org.uk >> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 4:53 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" >> >> Just a couple of very quick observations. (I find regularly that by the >> time I have formulated my response to something, the conversation has moved >> on by several degrees, so I'm getting in quickly.) >> >> Firstly the link to your article on Ruqaiya didn't resolve, David. But I >> found it here: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-UtouXiIa-kw$ >> . Thank you for that, though - looks well worth reading. >> >> Secondly, I always had the impression that Bernstein was resisted not >> because of his work on codes specifically, but because he was too prone to >> allowing his work to be used to justify class differentials, almost to the >> level of the poor keep themselves poor by deliberately restricting the >> language their children learn. >> >> Thirdly, meatspace. Hmmm. I'm toying with the idea of pinkspace. Less >> physically vulgar than meatspace and reflects the reality that the physical >> world, just like the online world, is dominated by those of us who are >> pink. Just a thought. Needs developing though. >> >> Rob >> >> >> On 2020-05-26 03:08, David Kellogg wrote: >> > Michael, Anthony, Elizabeth--and (of course) Annalisa: >> > >> > I apologize for changing the threadline title AGAIN. I feel like the >> > five-year-old who is always unscrewing the back of the TV set to see >> > the little people inside; I was very dissatisfied withe the abstract >> > theory on the other line, according to which everything is everything >> > and mediation and unmediation are equally both and I wanted a way of >> > finding the people inside it. I thought the term "meatspace", which >> > Annalisa has heard before, captured that feeling pretty well (and >> > there are also some echoes of a corruscating book review I once read >> > in MCA titled something like "Yer askin' me to believe in sentient >> > MEAT????") >> > >> > Let's use Michael's categories of "teacher presence" and "social >> > presence" instead, so long as we keep in mind the point that Michael >> > made at the end, that is, the teacher is always present even when the >> > teacher is not present (as when the child is doing homework alone) and >> > the additional point that teacher presence is one kind of social >> > presence. But because presence and absence are (like mediated and >> > unmediated) equally both ungradeable categories, I would prefer to >> > talk about teacher distancing and social distancing. Michael Osterholm >> > has objected to the term social distancing for the same reasons I >> > raised earlier--it's a physical, mechanical distancing that actually >> > creates a higher form of solidarity (and that is why the elements of >> > society which oppose higher forms of solidarity oppose it). So I put >> > "social distancing" in scare quotes. But the teacher distancing is >> > real enough. >> > >> > Real but not by itself of developmental significance. What worries me >> > is the possibility that we are adding to the kinds of inequalitiees >> > that Annalisa, Henry and Tom are talking about on the other thread. It >> > seems to me that teacher distancing differentially hurts some >> > populations. I disagree that Koreans are more homogeneous than other >> > cultures (in class terms significantly less so) and I also think that >> > if you were to sit through a lecture in the Korean language without >> > understanding Korean you would not agree that language is the least >> > important aspect of teacher presence. But (to bring these two >> > together) I think that students who are able to focus on language, and >> > on particular kinds of language, are disproportionately enabled in >> > conditions of teacher distancing. This is the issue that dare not >> > speak its name, for when Bernstein tried to raise it he was, as >> > Halliday noted, "driven out of the field". One of the reasons I wrote >> > the article linked below is that Ruqaiya Hasan was not. >> > >> > David Kellogg >> > >> > Sangmyung University >> > >> > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> > Outlines, Spring 2020 >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie >> > w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d >> > 7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-Utot_Yz0eEQ$ [1] >> > >> > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: _L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >> > Works_ _Volume One: Foundations of Pedology_" >> > >> > >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 >> > 5270__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqO >> > DPVr-UtotPljj6rQ$ [2] >> > >> > >> > Links: >> > ------ >> > [1] >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie >> > w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zc >> > e9P2I5M_FZBJKElhGyP20UejX0w$ >> > [2] >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 >> > 5270__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zce9P2I5M_FZB >> > JKElhGyP026P9-1A$ >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200527/836d7bef/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Wed May 27 09:48:12 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 16:48:12 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: <32E7CCCD-69BC-4AB8-AC9A-E1A8F581835C@gmail.com> References: <78D4E5A7-6661-4F59-A41F-A1FD92995FD6@gmail.com> <29749880-98FE-47D7-84E1-841BB6B9B6C5@gmail.com> , <32E7CCCD-69BC-4AB8-AC9A-E1A8F581835C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Tom, Henry, and VO's, I'm glad that Henry was able to be of some comfort to your concerns Tom. I might also encourage you to read "Betraying Spinoza: The Renegade Jew Who Gave Us Modernity" (2009) by Rebecca Goldstein, as well as "Descartes' Error: Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain" (1995) by Antonio Damasio. Betraying Spinoza is one of my favorite books ever. The reason that I find Damasio so important in brain research is that he has been able to ascertain that we require our feelings first in order to reason. It's not that other way around, as much as steel and concrete rationalists want to believe. Damasio was able to ascertain this based upon a patient of his who suffered a brain injury to the part of the brain that we understand necessary for feelings. To direct a comment to Henry, I think the difference between emotion and feeling as you indicate does have distinctions, and thinking out loud, it is that emotions have something to do with the limbic system, while feelings arise from executive functions (hence as you say the narratives we have about ourselves). Another great historical account about Spinoza is "The Courtier and the Heretic" (2007) by Matthew Stewart, which focuses upon the lives of Leibniz and Spinoza and an account of their only meeting. It's a great page turner. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 10:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Glad it was helpful, Tom:) On May 27, 2020, at 3:24 AM, Tom Richardson > wrote: Good Morning Henry Your confusions and eventual clarity explain and help a great deal, mirroring my own as I read Damasio's account. I shall dig further with gratitude to you. Best Tom [https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://drive.google.com/uc?id=0B0zqMvyA6XEhZkdKSUk5eUxRUnNkbWZFdHlaRlpJci1fQ1lJ&export=download__;!!Mih3wA!W6jl03rhkaivCFRhjzKI3sJQIHeWznUxy0me28cgzNSRzqz-lnGv_-rukkL8n_GXi6KsMw$ ] BoWen On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 22:29, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: Hi Tom, No problem enabling your laziness with my shallow reading of Spinzoa. I confess that I have read nothing directly from Spinoza, but have read about his philosphy and about his life. It?s been a while since I read Looking for Spinoza: Joy Sorrow and the Feeling Brain. I am looking at the book now and am amazed with how much highlighting there is and how little of it I remember in detail. What got me into it was the distinction between emotions and feelings. Damasio is a neuroscientist, and the book are full of the neural correlates of affective states, being the ?easy? problem of consciousness. The ?hard? problem of explaining the reason any arrangements at all of matter can possibly result in consciousness is not explained. What got me into it was the distinction between emotions and feelings. Damasio associates emotions (fear, anger, surprise, disgust, sadness and happiness) with primal parts of the brain connected to homeostasis of the organism. Emotions are evoked prior to the more narrative experience of feelings. To tell the truth, I am still not entirely clear on the distinction, largely because he explains the difference through case studies of people who have suffered damage to different parts of the brain, losing me. Maybe I got it at the time, but looking through the book now, it?s not so clear. One interesting thing is that we can have social emotions, which means homeostasis is not just internal to the human organism. Anyway, the book is worth digging through. Hope that helps a little. Whew! Henry On May 26, 2020, at 1:31 PM, Tom Richardson > wrote: Hi Henry Thank you for your thoughtful, fact full reply. It would save me continuing to plough through Damasio's well-written but fairly lengthy book 'Looking for Spinoza', if you were to send me a brief personal summary of what he means intellectually for you - (or am I being lazy?) - since it is always illuminating to understand what our thinkers mean to/for our peers. I have not broached Baruch S's work for myself. Best wishes Tom On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 17:09, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: Hi Tom, Thank you for your rich, well-thought-out response to my question. And thank you for recognizing that I wanted it to be generous. Perhaps a quibble is that you associate the first stage of Stalinist rule as capitalist, rather than industrial, as I understand it. I think that?s important. Stalin?s top-down planning had the same hall marks as Mao?s, Castro?s and the current North Korean leader. I appreciate your optimism that any system devised by humans can create human thriving that is not destructive of of humanity itself. We seem to have boxed ourselves into a corner by destroying our niche, the world. COVID-19 and climate change, IMHO, we are all, indvidually and collectively complicit. I hope that we can get beyond romanticism and cynicism in meeting our fate. I think that Vygotsky and Spinoza represent what can come of wrestling with open hearts and clear thinking with our condition. Henry On May 26, 2020, at 3:09 AM, Tom Richardson > wrote: Good Morning (GMT+1) Henry I'm touched by your mail today. My life experience does not include such practical engagement as yours, with any of the major social disruptions / attempts at new organisation, of the C20. It seems dismissively facile to criticise amazing historic re-organisations of social life like the Cuban Revolution, but it is necessary. Otherwise the same mistakes will happen again and again. The political strand which I accept as most accurately analysing historical and current reality characterises the liberation movements (particularities, differences, I'm ignoring for sake of quick explanation) post 1900, as nationalist, and mostly state socialist/capitalist. IE they are top-down, state directed anti-imperialist/colonialist movements. The self-organisation and free association of the producers that is the essence of communist organisation is absent. Often there is some commitment to a Kautskyan / Stalinist "two stage theory", requiring full capitalist development to prepare the ground for the next step of proletarian rule - eg in the South African struggle. We can see where that has led so far. But the analysts I accept, posit that socialism in one country cannot be created nor sustained while the basis of total global social reproduction is the money based economy, taken forward by the capital-labour relationship of commodity production - the so-called 'free market' whose anarchy ensures an absence of any organised relationship to global human needs, since it is driven by the value-based circulation of commodities dominating all global production. The freedom is that of the individual / joint-stock company in the pursuit of surplus value. And, yes, Marx, does provide an analysis of "money" which indicates how a future system of production would/could not be based on the use of money and therefore wages. There is so much literature about this to be investigated, (much of it written by US authors, extraordinarily, given the Chicago School and the legacy of McCarthy). I started with Engels 'Socialism, Utopian and Scientific' which explained in a way that my pro-market, individualist history teacher could not, why the Anti-Corn Law League had 'won' and the Chartists had failed. Anyway, I am only recycling, from my own limited understanding, the sort of analysis that the original authors of the literature I value provide in overwhelming but convincing detail. While the way forward towards a future that communists see as essential if the planet is not to be destroyed, or at least human life on it, is not in prospect as far as any realist can foresee, at present, the reality of the Barbarism that Capital brings (together with the technology necessary for the possibility of real change), is clear every moment in our lives. Human resistance and creative answers to apparently insoluble problems, and the reality that the working class has nothing to gain that sustains real fulfilling human life from capital's continuation, sustain my knowledge that my commitment to moving beyond capitalism, is both essential and realistic. I trust that this attempted answer to your generous question makes sufficient sense . Best wishes Tom On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 22:26, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: Hi Tom, What is it about ?free market economies? is the cause of wage slavery? Is there at least some jiggering of the market that could end ?destructive anarchy?? Do we do away with money? And I am serious here. I take it that capitalism is the problem, not the market, or money. I was in the doctoral program in economics at UC Berkeley during the late 60s. My concentrations were comparative economic systems and economic planning. I dropped out after only getting a masters degree in economics there, and went to Cuba to cut sugar cane with the Venceremos Brigade. I felt strongly Che?s call to make the New Man (though women were there too, and check out the film ?Lucia?) of that era, but I think that central planning (Castro?) of the Cuban economy had a destructive and anarchic side. Castro apologized for his mistakes during the year of 10 million tons of sugar cane production, but the damage was done. Cuba has been a shining light in some ways for me and others, not least the health care workers, the original Doctors Without Borders, that beautifully exemplify the new human. So, really, what do we replace markets and money with? Or is it the ?free? part that?s the rub. Henry On May 25, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Tom Richardson > wrote: Hello Annalisa "All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is:" Since I have suggested neither of the alternatives you state as the only way forward, it would surely invalidate your further argument. But I must admit that the idea of thirty thousand working class families and then some, organising to change the wage-slavery employment system that they are exploited by, would be a great idea. Here's to that day, as the freely associated producers of our social life organise to end the destructive anarchy of our present free-market economies. Regards Tom On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 19:58, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hi Tom and others, I agree that Capitalism is bad, and that it causes wealth and poverty in extremes. Which then creates social injustices that would be much lessened with less economic inequality. I do not think that I ever said (did I?) to ignore the traditional power structures. I said that every day we negotiate the power structures. And when we decide it's not working we can create change. That possibility is always an option, but it demands diligence, discipline, and discovery. All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is: 1. it's futile. Give up. The structures will always be against us. Settle in to your given hand of bad fortune. 2. grab a gun and kill as many people sitting in seats of power (which means the chair of power remains to be replaced by someone else). Forgive me if I reject both those options. As I said, perhaps in another post, the liberal position of citing data and objecting to the existence of that data, isn't going to make power structures change. What would make change is for those 15K-30K families to organize and among themselves decide how and what they can do to make their lot better. It's called organizing. Civil disobedience works because it is civil. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > Sent: Monday, May 25, 2020 3:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hi Annalisa Good Morning - just a correction to figures about poverty in our town - I should have been more careful,; fortunately the figures from memory were an underestimate rather than an exaggeration: Almost 30,000 children are living in poverty across Teesside - and half are from working families. And stark new statistics reveal that the picture is worst in central Middlesbrough - as hyper-local, official Government data reveals three quarters of all kids in one neighbourhood are living below the breadline. Regards Tom [https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://drive.google.com/uc?id=0B0zqMvyA6XEhZkdKSUk5eUxRUnNkbWZFdHlaRlpJci1fQ1lJ&export=download__;!!Mih3wA!W6jl03rhkaivCFRhjzKI3sJQIHeWznUxy0me28cgzNSRzqz-lnGv_-rukkL8n_GXi6KsMw$ ] BoWen On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 22:17, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Alas, hello again Tom (& VO's), While I accept your assessment of our differences in approaches and understandings, I do not see that it is obvious that there is no meeting point. For example, innovation exists in science and in art, in business it is entrepreneurship. I believe that there are good things that come from business entrepreneurship, and there are bad things too. We love that art and science are innovative, when they are, but there can be failings there too. The captains of industry who believe they are self-made men, and who believe that anyone who decides for oneself being on the assembly line of the manufacturing floor is only a dumb pawn in a larger game, would be in my estimation the worst that kind of human that entrepreneurship generates. Elon Musk is one example, perhaps. As much as I likely would not want Elon Musk over for dinner, I can admire that he has been able to steward the creation of an electric car in the midst of a sleepwalking auto industry that cannot envision automobiles without a gas-eating combustible engine. At the same time what he gives he takes away: I'm not sure that I can ever get on board a space rocket to inhabit Mars. I actually object to that project because as long as we haven't worked out how to feed everyone on this earthship, we should not be escaping it by polluting another planet, even if, as Carl Sagan told us, there are billions and billions of them out there. "They" in the form of (other they)'s do not have power unless we give them that power. That power is always up for debate every minute, every day, every year. Given that there are now 38 million unemployed in the US (I can't name the numbers elsewhere and I'm sorry about that), that's like the entire population of California being on the dole. It is a significant number, and it may be that many of those people start their own businesses, not because of education or desire, but of necessity. Many of the young and unemployed are educated. That could be a combustible cocktail, depending upon their self-awareness and outward worldview. One strange article in NYT described a scene designer who has been out of work since the health order shutdown, and hasn't received any unemployment yet because she filed in New Jersey, while her partner did because he filed in New York. Then she got an offer to work in a company who is making ... wait for it.... facemasks, so now she is toiling over a machine, sewing facemasks. I don't think I could live in that situation because of the stark irony, if that is a just word for that. I mourn the loss of her creativity, but I hope it is temporary. Now out of necessity, she's had to travel that path. So I can agree with you that because of the government order to shut down business, and because a company who hired her decided to make facemasks, because what other ingenious product would or could one manufacture right now? they have shaped her working life. Have they shaped her social life, though. I mean completely? She still has her contacts on her iPhone, she likely returns home to her partner to cook dinner and search for more work. Her desires and dreams are likely impacted, but has she completely given up? Should she? I am not pro-revolution, only because they create rivers of blood in streets, etc. I'm more of the mind that incremental choices can together create a tipping point of social change. For example, consider the tiny house movement. Or how young people will share resources, or reevaluate buying things, or what they eat. People make the best lemonade only with the best lemons. There is going to have to be a reckoning of having so many unemployed people. It can't be ignored. To just pretend that everyone will be happy with a lower wage job (lower than when the pandemic hit), is only going to drive people to desperate measures. The country will want to put people to work and this could be an opportunity for collective change, for creating meaningful jobs. Because who wants a civil war. So there will have to be some sort of appeasement for the social reality that people must have their basic needs met. The temporary stimulus is a lifeline, but the real economic difficulties will start when people start to return to work, and there are less jobs with the result being there is less money circulating in the economy overall. With interest rates so low, and pumping more money into the economy is only going to raise the prices of things, possibly wages, but not the buying power. People will cut bait from the lives they once had, and simplify. Moving to less crowded cities and towns, returning to live with parents. Perhaps creating cooperatives. One area for discovery with so much time on one's hands is handcrafting. I think there will be a blooming of new businesses that incorporate *real* labor. This may also usher in more vocational training programs. One article I read today discussed the eating of meat, and how it is a destructive social practice including its impact on climate change. Largely that industry depends upon of automation, and now with slaughterhouses being virus hotspots, do you want to trust that the meat you buy is not tainted with COVID? Or that you are forcing a worker into an unsafe work environment and catch the virus? If people were decide to stop eating meat, or reduce even its consumption because it's too expensive, and if the government stops giving subsidies to these agro-corporations, then these polluting companies will fail. That would be great news. Then the writer pointed out that if we returned to diets higher in plant-based food, that would increase demand for real farms, real entrepreneurship and generate jobs, as it takes more people to grow vegetables, than it does to raise pigs or chickens. We would also become healthier as a population. There is already a network of farmer's markets for local produce, so it may mean a growth in that area. I suppose what I'm trying to say is I do not think it is so cut and dried that we are subject to the worst forever. I think with so much time on our hands people are free to organize and decide to help one another in mutual aid. We do not have to rely on traditional power structures, and we do not have to resort to bloody revolutions. Depending upon what you are looking for in life, there is a third way arising. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 4:24 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hello once more Annalisa Our difference of approach to and understanding of the modern state and the production of social life obviously admits of no meeting point as far as I read your astonishingly wide-ranging and impassioned response. Without the simplicity of my reply intending to signal a facile sarcasm, I must bluntly state that I begin from the acceptance that nefarious or not, 'They', in the sense of government and corporations, do have the power to control and shape the organisation of social life. We can, if enough socio-political pressure can be brought to bear through social movements, rebellions, revolts, shift certain aspects of that fashioning of our lives. But at present, the relationship of wage slavery imposed by Capital ,and the society shaped by that relationship, are dominant throughout the life of our planet. Sad at such an impasse, since we both wish the best for humanity Tom On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 21:46, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hi Tom, and VO's of XMCA Concerning your questions about our new normal now that COVID19 is with us and here to stay, I think your guess is as good as anyone's. I am not sure if we as humans have ever been burdened with such an event as this, and at the same time are able to watch the unfolding events and respond (or not respond if you are a stable genius) quickly from the feedback of data, news, anecdotes, and other forms of perception of how the virus is impacting us. What is worth remembering as well, is that epidemiologists have been warning us for decades that a pandemic was a clear an present danger to the way we live and negotiate the modern world. We see in sensurround how right they were. As I consider your question, I have to think that people mow might be sorted into two classes, well at least two classes: 1. People who seem to think the virus is just another flu and once we find a vaccine, all will return to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday or pre-pandemic time you mark your calendar as before the pandemic hit, which of course depends upon where on the earth you are located). 2. People who seem to think the virus has changed us and there will never be going back to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday...) I suspect the Americans of the neo-conservative persuasion who have been motivated to protest health order social distancing believe that not only this is a conspiracy to control fredom-loving people, but that we should return to Christmas 2019 as soon as possible, they are of Cohort 1. I think Cohort 2 are going to be people who take in the facts and the data and are actively attempting to sort out where do we go from here. I feel confident you are in Cohort 2, as ar most people on this list. Now, as Carol M has pointed out, in a lot of ways our discussion about online learning is a first world concern, for those who have an internet connection that is ubiquitous not only at home, but at school, work, on the bus, on planes, in cafes, and other public gathering spaces, like city halls, or town squares. That's another reason why it's hard to take Klein seriously, in terms of *tone*. I recall reading something from George Lakoff when he indicates that there is a liberal stance that seems to believe that if one objects loudly enough with "sky is falling" rhetoric and then feed out various data, that using this strategy the audience will become motivated to protest in the streets, write letters to congress, run for office, or whatever civil action must be done, and with alacrity. It doesn't work. I do not think being against anything ever "works." I think only being for something works. Let's look at Klein's article as an example. If she were to be rhetorically successful she would outline the problem she identifies (Mr. Schmidt goes to Washington), but instead of all that is wrong, talk about what can be right. Not to say she should agree with Mr. Schmidt and his ways. I feel her article could be a lot heavier on what works with education and how to enhance that further. She does mention how money should b used more for school nurses, smaller classrooms, etc. This is where she could have expanded beautifully into a viable solution to spark everyone's imaginations. But she didn't do that. She is more motivated it seems to mark Mr. Schmidt and his technological minions to masterminding a New World Order that will steal our souls and tether us to the Matrix from now until the end of time. I also feel she would have been more conducive to discourse by writing an open letter to Cuomo and Schmidt, and to invite a response. This is also leading by example to cultivate democratic processes that are near and dear to all of us. Instead she "otherfies" them, and this is also not useful. And I am not saying that as a stance to defend Mr. Schmidt or Gov Cuomo, in any way. So back to your question, I do not think that there is any way we will be extricated from this reality of COVID 19. We will have to pick our stones across the river carefully so that none of us slips and is carried down the rapids. I feel it is more useful to say we are a family of one kind, and all of us have to stay together to make it across. And that all of us deserves a life jacket as a measure of survival because not all of us will get to the other side without getting wet, or falling in. The tension between CEOs and their contempt for the slow-food of democracy is well known. If only they could persuade all of us to eat fast food, then they could take over the world as the next McDonalds, in terms of technological vision, whatever a McDonalds would look like on a screen, as an app, whathaveyou. Unfortunately what seems to elude folks who have not worked in tech, or those who see tech as just another new Ford in the garage, is that technology is always in flux. There is always development of new hardware that needs new software written to use it, so there is a double-quicksand of events upon which technology is founded (and funded) upon. That's what Moore's Law is about. Technology in order to "be itself" must always move fleetingly, like the shark must to breathe. Technology will never be able to last the halls of government. For that reason, any rendition of technology in government (and school systems for that matter) will be like bad combovers that are meant to convince us that we are now more attractive and appealing (not meaning to offend those who live by their combovers...) Where I feel technology could best serve us is to help create grassroots democracy tools, to support what we know is possible and could even threaten the basis for representative democracy and bring it closer to a straight agora democracy. Some might call this anarchy, and I could argue along the lines of David Graeber that anarchy is a more pure form of democracy practiced in all "primitive" or "ancient" cultures, it's not a perfect fit, and I intend to make that reference loosely. My point is to say there should be what David K calls involution of what government is, to what government was, and to supplant that, or rather what causes those parts to be pushed to the margins is to imagine a government where there is mor connection to agora-like venues where one person speaking in a Zoom-like frame is of equal stature of any other person speaking in the frame. One can sort of imagine this with the Zoom-empowered senate hearings which I watched for a while on the NYT front page. It was really strange to me. I suppose the danger is that we get to hear Sally Mc? from Arizona use her time to blame the Chinese for the virus, etc, for more time that we would like. But that's democracy. So one fallout could be that grade-school kids and their resulting perezhivanie from Zoom-based classrooms, will adopt the tool for political discussions as adults. Might that be a good thing? Maybe. At the same time, do you remember a book that came out in the mid90s called "Silicon Snake Oil"? This is yet another phenomenon of technology, that people oozing charisma will claw their way to the microphone and pitch an idea about the next vaporware, who will then make unsubstantiated promises and claims directed to feed our fantasies and dreams, and who will then abscond with all the money, only to request not to look at the man behind the green curtain, or if pulled by the ear into a senate hearing will say "I thought it was a good idea at the time." etc. I think that is the view of Klein about all technology, and there are merits in that, but there are also other ways to think about it. This article about Marc Benioff in Wired recently discusses about the social entrepreneurship of his wealth: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.wired.com/story/gospel-of-wealth-according-to-marc-benioff/__;!!Mih3wA!W6jl03rhkaivCFRhjzKI3sJQIHeWznUxy0me28cgzNSRzqz-lnGv_-rukkL8n_FeFH4BSw$ Who by they way now owns the magazine Time, the way Jeff Bezos bought the WaPo, and Lauren Jobs bought The Altlantic, and Pierre Omidyar funded The Intercept. I do invite, as much as you can stomach, anyway, for any educators or other members of our vibrant list to make regular reading of Wired Magazine, which is a far more interesting read on technology than something like Fast Company. I encourage this reading, if only to know the enemy, as it were. Wired articles are far more nuanced and sophisticated than when the magazine first got off the ground in the early 90s. I find reading it helps to connect some dots for those who do not consume technology culture all the time. Just pick and choose what you are curious about. We must become familiar with the vernacular of technology if we want a hand in the game of how it plays in education, our stomping grounds. This will require effort on our part. That is not to say we must adopt all the shiny new toys. But we can be like a Consumer Report for education, and evaluate and measure the good the bad and the ugly of technology and its use in the edu sphere. We cannot sit on our laurels and wait for someone else to decide for us how technology will be deployed. That stance is what the mythology of inevitable technology rests and self-perpetuates. We must be more tech literate, and we must be the first to coin words and how they manifest in edu venues. What works what doesn't. I don't see any other way to fight back and to keep control of the educational narrative, where of course we want to hardwire zopeds, manifest and lead critical and nourishing perezhivanie, and model by example sterling mediated learning experiences for students and teachers. What other projects can there be? For me, this is "fighting back" because it makes the sort of shark-like entrepreneur recede for a time (as they will always be looking for a way into edu's tax coffers), because we are successful getting education right. I do not accept that entreprenuership is what took the sanctity from teaching and learning. But that's an argument to be made. I feel it is only one side of the argument. Once I had an male acquaintance tell me that one reason women are in inferior roles is because they let this happen to them. As you might imagine, I had a real hard time with that argument and I had to clench my jaw to now spew various vitriol upon him. But after I thought about it, in a narrow sense he is not wrong because not it is true that enough women in history identified the value to struggle for rights even if they would not see equality in their own lifetimes. There are many explanations for why that did not happen, that are not facile to depict. But then I also had to think of how much women's struggles have succeeded because they did decide to not let this happen to them anymore. But now women are learning in the US, anyway, that nothing fought for is a permanent fixture, and so we must become resigned to the perpetual struggle for equality, as all marginalized people must. So now I direct this to our context of education in the venue of online learning. This is not an easy question, and it is not intended to trivialize the work and efforts of many on this list, but it is instead a question of inner reflection, or a taking of inventory of one's own life: How much has each of you done to take measure and fight for meaningful education in the classroom? Could you have done more? Can you do more? Then the same for asking yourself how have you integrated technology appropriately into your learning methods and general perezhivanie. I hope this might provide some further food for thought concerning preservation on the sanctity of learning and instruction in the classroom. So all this is to reply to you Tom, that in short, the nefarious They can only take control if we let them. Kind regards, Annalisa ps please excuse all typos, which are all made on my own. ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 11:26 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hi Annalisa Thank you for providing the details of your deep and committed background in distance / online learning. Mine is obviously shallow, which must have triggered you and 'Robsub' somewhat. But my questioning is in the newer context of the Covid19 threats to global society and the solutions being sought to extricate us from them. Governor Cuomo's conversation with Schmidt to examine solutions to the problems of present coping and future emergence from the pandemic is understandable. Two persons with power and a need to act, discuss what technology (in its widest hard- and software aspects) has to offer. In a democracy we can assess the solutions they propose and shape them to what we know to be as near to optimal for our society as possible. Your assertion of the efficacy of our agency which Klein seems to deny, with her politico-economic caveats. Schmidt has an evangelism for the potential of technology, but expressed with such restraint - he's no zealot. He also, in the video of the ECNY conversation with Marie-Josee Kravis, sees the lack of 'simplicity' in the three-tier democratic system of the US. He is a CEO with an organisation geared to problem-analysis, solution choices, and operational capability which can be put into action without delaying debate. He expressed no hostility to 'democracy' but as he said, it does not work simply. Klein reminds us to be wary if not alarmed, not because she is despairing (I believe), but because that direct entrepreneurial drive has profit making as its unavoidable aim. Whatever Schmidt's humanistic feelings, if profit doesn't result from his and his companies actions, they will not survive. That competitive drive is also present in his aspirations for international dominance (see his remarks on the rise of China's technology). So far, the sort of distance / online learning you have worked on, has been nested in the context of family and (normal) school life. That normality had implicit in it human values, customs and structures, whatever differences of class, race, gender and culture were present. The melding of state and enterprise in a newly-developing novel (5G?)high-tech 'solution' to mediating education presents a situation which need to be examined I believe. And my query, in that 'Kleinian' context was looking for answers from those, like yourself, with wide experience of previous technological 'answers' and their implications for the results within the learner. I affirm, along with you, the irrepressible resistance and sheer cantankerousness we humans bring to unjust situations. But such fighting back will often be unsuccessful in its aims, when the need to reduce labour time with new technology is driving events - Luddism and machine looms? Our human drive to change and adapt, our use of our agency to create or alter our lives must not be suppressed. But what Klein is reminding us of is just how tilted is the balance of power - the power of the state and behind it, the drive from the vast corporate world, for profit. Our agency is so often undone by the arbitrary intervention of those forces. Those are the forces which have destroyed what you name the 'sanctity' of teaching and learning. I would name it the basic need for those goals, but we share it. With the need to re-invigorate just such a precious resource, we will continue to fight like hell. Despite their mere humanness, corporations and states at present have greater knowledge and power than 'mere' citizens. My intervention in xmca discussion was really to say "They're looking to take even more control of daily life. Within academia, you can analyse how they are making such changes happen and continue to alert the rest of us, if you fear the consequences of their changes." Best wishes Tom On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 22:29, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hi Tom, May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed by SL's prospects. In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of associations of place with learning. In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and constrain learning to books. We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of learning. I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged learning venues . Not with grade school. I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!W6jl03rhkaivCFRhjzKI3sJQIHeWznUxy0me28cgzNSRzqz-lnGv_-rukkL8n_FfpGokew$ It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be integrated with existing models. If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and surveillance is a constructive combination. There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and introspection, I will never accept that reality. To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers and pins." I just do not believe this narrative. We cannot give up. Is there a fight ahead? Yes. Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most definitely, yes. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hello Annalisa Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. * What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such learning takes place?'. * What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes for the perezhivanie of the learner, which shapes her social being and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. Kind regards Tom On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello Tom, Thank you for posting the link. I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended into our lives. I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control the world. Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to deliberate the way forward. As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency to decide how to use our tools. Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply does not hold water for me. I hope this might be a little encouraging. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hello Tom Richardson This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat Project" that has just finished its planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human development, and theories of "Development in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most members of this discussion over the years, is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about for 100 years. Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing working models of effective practices that do NOT assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. Thanks for asking. mike On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson > wrote: Greetings Xmca-ers I would like to raise a question. In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening recently: "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks after that article appeared, he described the ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the country had been forced to cobble together during this public health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!W6jl03rhkaivCFRhjzKI3sJQIHeWznUxy0me28cgzNSRzqz-lnGv_-rukkL8n_GAMBGoJQ$ Just asking Tom Richardson Middlesbrough UK -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200527/12bfb179/attachment.html From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Wed May 27 10:44:55 2020 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 18:44:55 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: <78D4E5A7-6661-4F59-A41F-A1FD92995FD6@gmail.com> <29749880-98FE-47D7-84E1-841BB6B9B6C5@gmail.com> <32E7CCCD-69BC-4AB8-AC9A-E1A8F581835C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Annalisa Wow - more reading, and they all sound fascinating and indispensable. Just at the moment I've discovered the Vygotsky Archive - and found 'Understanding Vygotsky' -der Veer, Valsiner , on my shelves - auto-didacticism is becoming a little exhausting, but well worth it and fun, especially sharing with colleagues on XMCA- treasure....... Tom On Wed, 27 May 2020 at 17:50, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Tom, Henry, and VO's, > > I'm glad that Henry was able to be of some comfort to your concerns Tom. > > I might also encourage you to read "Betraying Spinoza: The Renegade Jew > Who Gave Us Modernity" (2009) by Rebecca Goldstein, as well as > "Descartes' Error: Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain" (1995) by Antonio > Damasio. > > Betraying Spinoza is one of my favorite books ever. > > The reason that I find Damasio so important in brain research is that he > has been able to ascertain that we require our feelings first in order to > reason. It's not that other way around, as much as steel and concrete > rationalists want to believe. Damasio was able to ascertain this based upon > a patient of his who suffered a brain injury to the part of the brain that > we understand necessary for feelings. > > To direct a comment to Henry, I think the difference between emotion and > feeling as you indicate does have distinctions, and thinking out loud, it > is that emotions have something to do with the limbic system, while > feelings arise from executive functions (hence as you say the narratives we > have about ourselves). > > Another great historical account about Spinoza is "The Courtier and the > Heretic" (2007) by Matthew Stewart, which focuses upon the lives of Leibniz > and Spinoza and an account of their only meeting. It's a great page > turner. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of HENRY SHONERD > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 27, 2020 10:25 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Glad it was helpful, Tom:) > > On May 27, 2020, at 3:24 AM, Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > > Good Morning Henry > Your confusions and eventual clarity explain and help a great deal, > mirroring my own as I read Damasio's account. I shall dig further with > gratitude to you. > Best > Tom > BoWen > > > On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 22:29, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > Hi Tom, > No problem enabling your laziness with my shallow reading of Spinzoa. I > confess that I have read nothing directly from Spinoza, but have read about > his philosphy and about his life. It?s been a while since I read Looking > for Spinoza: Joy Sorrow and the Feeling Brain. I am looking at the book now > and am amazed with how much highlighting there is and how little of it I > remember in detail. What got me into it was the distinction between > emotions and feelings. Damasio is a neuroscientist, and the book are full > of the neural correlates of affective states, being the ?easy? problem of > consciousness. The ?hard? problem of explaining the reason any arrangements > at all of matter can possibly result in consciousness is not explained. > What got me into it was the distinction between emotions and feelings. > Damasio associates emotions (fear, anger, surprise, disgust, sadness and > happiness) with primal parts of the brain connected to homeostasis of the > organism. Emotions are evoked prior to the more narrative experience of > feelings. To tell the truth, I am still not entirely clear on the > distinction, largely because he explains the difference through case > studies of people who have suffered damage to different parts of the brain, > losing me. Maybe I got it at the time, but looking through the book now, > it?s not so clear. One interesting thing is that we can have social > emotions, which means homeostasis is not just internal to the human > organism. > > Anyway, the book is worth digging through. Hope that helps a little. Whew! > > Henry > > > On May 26, 2020, at 1:31 PM, Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > > > Hi Henry > Thank you for your thoughtful, fact full reply. > > It would save me continuing to plough through Damasio's well-written but > fairly lengthy book 'Looking for Spinoza', if you were to send me a brief > personal summary of what he means intellectually for you - (or am I being > lazy?) - since it is always illuminating to understand what our thinkers > mean to/for our peers. I have not broached Baruch S's work for myself. > > Best wishes > Tom > > On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 17:09, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > Hi Tom, > Thank you for your rich, well-thought-out response to my question. And > thank you for recognizing that I wanted it to be generous. Perhaps a > quibble is that you associate the first stage of Stalinist rule as > capitalist, rather than industrial, as I understand it. I think that?s > important. Stalin?s top-down planning had the same hall marks as Mao?s, > Castro?s and the current North Korean leader. I appreciate your optimism > that any system devised by humans can create human thriving that is not > destructive of of humanity itself. We seem to have boxed ourselves into a > corner by destroying our niche, the world. COVID-19 and climate change, > IMHO, we are all, indvidually and collectively complicit. I hope that we > can get beyond romanticism and cynicism in meeting our fate. I think that > Vygotsky and Spinoza represent what can come of wrestling with open hearts > and clear thinking with our condition. > Henry > > > On May 26, 2020, at 3:09 AM, Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > > Good Morning (GMT+1) Henry > > I'm touched by your mail today. My life experience does not include such > practical engagement as yours, with any of the major social disruptions / > attempts at new organisation, of the C20. > > It seems dismissively facile to criticise amazing historic > re-organisations of social life like the Cuban Revolution, but it is > necessary. Otherwise the same mistakes will happen again and again. > > The political strand which I accept as most accurately analysing > historical and current reality characterises the liberation movements > (particularities, differences, I'm ignoring for sake of quick explanation) > post 1900, as nationalist, and mostly state socialist/capitalist. IE they > are top-down, state directed anti-imperialist/colonialist movements. The > self-organisation and free association of the producers that is the essence > of communist organisation is absent. Often there is some commitment to a > Kautskyan / Stalinist "two stage theory", requiring full > capitalist development to prepare the ground for the next step of > proletarian rule - eg in the South African struggle. We can see where that > has led so far. > > But the analysts I accept, posit that socialism in one country cannot be > created nor sustained while the basis of total global social reproduction > is the money based economy, taken forward by the capital-labour > relationship of commodity production - the so-called 'free market' whose > anarchy ensures an absence of any organised relationship to global human > needs, since it is driven by the *value-based circulation of commodities* dominating > all global production. > > The freedom is that of the individual / joint-stock company in the pursuit > of surplus value. And, yes, Marx, does provide an analysis of "money" which > indicates how a future system of production would/could not be based on the > use of money and therefore wages. > > There is so much literature about this to be investigated, (much of it > written by US authors, extraordinarily, given the Chicago School and the > legacy of McCarthy). I started with Engels 'Socialism, Utopian and > Scientific' which explained in a way that my pro-market, individualist > history teacher could not, why the Anti-Corn Law League had 'won' and the > Chartists had failed. > > Anyway, I am only recycling, from my own limited understanding, the sort > of analysis that the original authors of the literature I value provide in > overwhelming but convincing detail. > > While the way forward towards a future that communists see as essential if > the planet is not to be destroyed, or at least human life on it, is not in > prospect as far as any realist can foresee, at present, the reality of the > Barbarism that Capital brings (together with the technology necessary for > the possibility of real change), is clear every moment in our lives. > > Human resistance and creative answers to apparently insoluble problems, > and the reality that the working class has nothing to gain that sustains > *real* *fulfilling human* life from capital's continuation, sustain my > knowledge that my commitment to moving beyond capitalism, is both essential > and realistic. > > I trust that this attempted answer to your generous question makes > sufficient sense . > > Best wishes > > Tom > > > > On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 22:26, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > Hi Tom, > What is it about ?free market economies? is the cause of wage slavery? Is > there at least some jiggering of the market that could end ?destructive > anarchy?? Do we do away with money? And I am serious here. I take it that > capitalism is the problem, not the market, or money. I was in the doctoral > program in economics at UC Berkeley during the late 60s. My concentrations > were comparative economic systems and economic planning. I dropped out > after only getting a masters degree in economics there, and went to Cuba to > cut sugar cane with the Venceremos Brigade. I felt strongly Che?s call to > make the New Man (though women were there too, and check out the film > ?Lucia?) of that era, but I think that central planning (Castro?) of the > Cuban economy had a destructive and anarchic side. Castro apologized for > his mistakes during the year of 10 million tons of sugar cane production, > but the damage was done. Cuba has been a shining light in some ways for me > and others, not least the health care workers, the original Doctors Without > Borders, that beautifully exemplify the new human. > > So, really, what do we replace markets and money with? Or is it the ?free? > part that?s the rub. > > Henry > > > On May 25, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > > Hello Annalisa > > "All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is:" > > Since I have suggested neither of the alternatives you state as the only > way forward, it would surely invalidate your further argument. > > But I must admit that the idea of thirty thousand working class families > and then some, organising to change the wage-slavery employment system > that they are exploited by, would be a great idea. > Here's to that day, as the freely associated producers of our social life > organise to end the destructive anarchy of our present free-market > economies. > > Regards > > Tom > > > > On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 19:58, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Tom and others, > > > I agree that Capitalism is bad, and that it causes wealth and poverty in > extremes. Which then creates social injustices that would be much lessened > with less economic inequality. > > > I do not think that I ever said (did I?) to ignore the traditional power > structures. I said that every day we negotiate the power structures. And > when we decide it's not working we can create change. That possibility is > always an option, but it demands diligence, discipline, and discovery. > > > All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is: > > 1. it's futile. Give up. The structures will always be against us. Settle > in to your given hand of bad fortune. > > 2. grab a gun and kill as many people sitting in seats of power (which > means the chair of power remains to be replaced by someone else). > > > Forgive me if I reject both those options. > > > As I said, perhaps in another post, the liberal position of citing data > and objecting to the existence of that data, isn't going to make power > structures change. > > > What would make change is for those 15K-30K families to organize and among > themselves decide how and what they can do to make their lot better. > > > It's called organizing. > > > Civil disobedience works because it is civil. > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > *Sent:* Monday, May 25, 2020 3:25 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Hi Annalisa > Good Morning - just a correction to figures about poverty in our town - I > should have been more careful,; fortunately the figures from memory were an > underestimate rather than an exaggeration: > > Almost 30,000 children are living in poverty across Teesside - and half > are from working families. > > And stark new statistics reveal that the picture is worst in central > Middlesbrough > - > as hyper-local, official Government data reveals three quarters of all kids > in one neighbourhood are living below the breadline. > > Regards > > Tom > BoWen > > > On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 22:17, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Alas, hello again Tom (& VO's), > > While I accept your assessment of our differences in approaches and > understandings, I do not see that it is obvious that there is no meeting > point. > > For example, innovation exists in science and in art, in business it is > entrepreneurship. I believe that there are good things that come from > business entrepreneurship, and there are bad things too. We love that art > and science are innovative, when they are, but there can be failings there > too. > > The captains of industry who believe they are self-made men, and who > believe that anyone who decides for oneself being on the assembly line of > the manufacturing floor is only a dumb pawn in a larger game, would be in > my estimation the worst that kind of human that entrepreneurship generates. > Elon Musk is one example, perhaps. > > As much as I likely would not want Elon Musk over for dinner, I can admire > that he has been able to steward the creation of an electric car in the > midst of a sleepwalking auto industry that cannot envision automobiles > without a gas-eating combustible engine. > > At the same time what he gives he takes away: I'm not sure that I can ever > get on board a space rocket to inhabit Mars. I actually object to that > project because as long as we haven't worked out how to feed everyone on > this earthship, we should not be escaping it by polluting another planet, > even if, as Carl Sagan told us, there are billions and billions of them out > there. > > "They" in the form of (other they)'s do not have power unless we give them > that power. That power is always up for debate every minute, every day, > every year. > > Given that there are now 38 million unemployed in the US (I can't name the > numbers elsewhere and I'm sorry about that), that's like the entire > population of California being on the dole. It is a significant number, and > it may be that many of those people start their own businesses, not because > of education or desire, but of necessity. > > Many of the young and unemployed are educated. That could be a combustible > cocktail, depending upon their self-awareness and outward worldview. > > One strange article in NYT described a scene designer who has been out of > work since the health order shutdown, and hasn't received any unemployment > yet because she filed in New Jersey, while her partner did because he filed > in New York. Then she got an offer to work in a company who is making ... > wait for it.... facemasks, so now she is toiling over a machine, sewing > facemasks. > > I don't think I could live in that situation because of the stark irony, > if that is a just word for that. I mourn the loss of her creativity, but I > hope it is temporary. > > Now out of necessity, she's had to travel that path. So I can agree with > you that because of the government order to shut down business, and because > a company who hired her decided to make facemasks, because what other > ingenious product would or could one manufacture right now? they have > shaped her working life. Have they shaped her social life, though. I mean > completely? She still has her contacts on her iPhone, she likely returns > home to her partner to cook dinner and search for more work. Her desires > and dreams are likely impacted, but has she completely given up? Should she? > > I am not pro-revolution, only because they create rivers of blood in > streets, etc. I'm more of the mind that incremental choices can together > create a tipping point of social change. > > For example, consider the tiny house movement. Or how young people will > share resources, or reevaluate buying things, or what they eat. > > People make the best lemonade only with the best lemons. > > There is going to have to be a reckoning of having so many unemployed > people. It can't be ignored. To just pretend that everyone will be happy > with a lower wage job (lower than when the pandemic hit), is only going to > drive people to desperate measures. The country will want to put people to > work and this could be an opportunity for collective change, for creating > meaningful jobs. > > Because who wants a civil war. > > So there will have to be some sort of appeasement for the social reality > that people must have their basic needs met. The temporary stimulus is a > lifeline, but the real economic difficulties will start when people start > to return to work, and there are less jobs with the result being there is > less money circulating in the economy overall. With interest rates so low, > and pumping more money into the economy is only going to raise the prices > of things, possibly wages, but not the buying power. > > People will cut bait from the lives they once had, and simplify. Moving to > less crowded cities and towns, returning to live with parents. Perhaps > creating cooperatives. One area for discovery with so much time on one's > hands is handcrafting. I think there will be a blooming of new businesses > that incorporate *real* labor. This may also usher in more vocational > training programs. > > One article I read today discussed the eating of meat, and how it is a > destructive social practice including its impact on climate change. Largely > that industry depends upon of automation, and now with slaughterhouses > being virus hotspots, do you want to trust that the meat you buy is not > tainted with COVID? Or that you are forcing a worker into an unsafe work > environment and catch the virus? > > If people were decide to stop eating meat, or reduce even its consumption > because it's too expensive, and if the government stops giving subsidies to > these agro-corporations, then these polluting companies will fail. That > would be great news. > > Then the writer pointed out that if we returned to diets higher in > plant-based food, that would increase demand for real farms, real > entrepreneurship and generate jobs, as it takes more people to grow > vegetables, than it does to raise pigs or chickens. We would also become > healthier as a population. There is already a network of farmer's markets > for local produce, so it may mean a growth in that area. > > I suppose what I'm trying to say is I do not think it is so cut and dried > that we are subject to the worst forever. I think with so much time on our > hands people are free to organize and decide to help one another in mutual > aid. We do not have to rely on traditional power structures, and we do not > have to resort to bloody revolutions. > > Depending upon what you are looking for in life, there is a third way > arising. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > *Sent:* Saturday, May 23, 2020 4:24 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Hello once more Annalisa > > Our difference of approach to and understanding of the modern state and > the production of social life obviously admits of no meeting point as far > as I read your astonishingly wide-ranging and impassioned response. > > Without the simplicity of my reply intending to signal a facile sarcasm, > I must bluntly state that I begin from the acceptance that nefarious or > not, 'They', in the sense of government and corporations, do have the power > to control and shape the organisation of social life. We can, if enough > socio-political pressure can be brought to bear through social movements, > rebellions, revolts, shift certain aspects of that fashioning of our lives. > > But at present, the relationship of wage slavery imposed by Capital ,and > the society shaped by that relationship, are dominant throughout the life > of our planet. > > Sad at such an impasse, since we both wish the best for humanity > > Tom > > > > On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 21:46, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Tom, and VO's of XMCA > > Concerning your questions about our new normal now that COVID19 is with us > and here to stay, I think your guess is as good as anyone's. I am not sure > if we as humans have ever been burdened with such an event as this, and at > the same time are able to watch the unfolding events and respond (or not > respond if you are a stable genius) quickly from the feedback of data, > news, anecdotes, and other forms of perception of how the virus is > impacting us. > > What is worth remembering as well, is that epidemiologists have been > warning us for decades that a pandemic was a clear an present danger to the > way we live and negotiate the modern world. We see in sensurround how right > they were. > > As I consider your question, I have to think that people mow might be > sorted into two classes, well at least two classes: > > > 1. People who seem to think the virus is just another flu and once we > find a vaccine, all will return to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December > Holiday or pre-pandemic time you mark your calendar as before the pandemic > hit, which of course depends upon where on the earth you are located). > 2. People who seem to think the virus has changed us and there will > never be going back to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday...) > > I suspect the Americans of the neo-conservative persuasion who have been > motivated to protest health order social distancing believe that not only > this is a conspiracy to control fredom-loving people, but that we should > return to Christmas 2019 as soon as possible, they are of Cohort 1. > > I think Cohort 2 are going to be people who take in the facts and the data > and are actively attempting to sort out where do we go from here. I feel > confident you are in Cohort 2, as ar most people on this list. > > Now, as Carol M has pointed out, in a lot of ways our discussion about > online learning is a first world concern, for those who have an internet > connection that is ubiquitous not only at home, but at school, work, on the > bus, on planes, in cafes, and other public gathering spaces, like city > halls, or town squares. That's another reason why it's hard to take Klein > seriously, in terms of *tone*. > > I recall reading something from George Lakoff when he indicates that there > is a liberal stance that seems to believe that if one objects loudly enough > with "sky is falling" rhetoric and then feed out various data, that using > this strategy the audience will become motivated to protest in the streets, > write letters to congress, run for office, or whatever civil action must be > done, and with alacrity. It doesn't work. I do not think being against > anything ever "works." I think only being for something works. > > Let's look at Klein's article as an example. If she were to be > rhetorically successful she would outline the problem she identifies (Mr. > Schmidt goes to Washington), but instead of all that is wrong, talk about > what can be right. Not to say she should agree with Mr. Schmidt and his > ways. > > I feel her article could be a lot heavier on what works with education and > how to enhance that further. She does mention how money should b used more > for school nurses, smaller classrooms, etc. This is where she could have > expanded beautifully into a viable solution to spark everyone's > imaginations. But she didn't do that. She is more motivated it seems to > mark Mr. Schmidt and his technological minions to masterminding a New World > Order that will steal our souls and tether us to the Matrix from now until > the end of time. > > I also feel she would have been more conducive to discourse by writing an > open letter to Cuomo and Schmidt, and to invite a response. This is also > leading by example to cultivate democratic processes that are near and dear > to all of us. Instead she "otherfies" them, and this is also not useful. > And I am not saying that as a stance to defend Mr. Schmidt or Gov Cuomo, in > any way. > > So back to your question, I do not think that there is any way we will be > extricated from this reality of COVID 19. We will have to pick our stones > across the river carefully so that none of us slips and is carried down the > rapids. I feel it is more useful to say we are a family of one kind, and > all of us have to stay together to make it across. And that all of us > deserves a life jacket as a measure of survival because not all of us will > get to the other side without getting wet, or falling in. > > The tension between CEOs and their contempt for the slow-food of democracy > is well known. If only they could persuade all of us to eat fast food, then > they could take over the world as the next McDonalds, in terms of > technological vision, whatever a McDonalds would look like on a screen, as > an app, whathaveyou. > > Unfortunately what seems to elude folks who have not worked in tech, or > those who see tech as just another new Ford in the garage, is that > technology is always in flux. There is always development of new hardware > that needs new software written to use it, so there is a double-quicksand > of events upon which technology is founded (and funded) upon. That's what > Moore's Law is about. > > Technology in order to "be itself" must always move fleetingly, like the > shark must to breathe. Technology will never be able to last the halls of > government. For that reason, any rendition of technology in government (and > school systems for that matter) will be like bad combovers that are meant > to convince us that we are now more attractive and appealing (not meaning > to offend those who live by their combovers...) > > Where I feel technology could best serve us is to help create grassroots > democracy tools, to support what we know is possible and could even > threaten the basis for representative democracy and bring it closer to a > straight agora democracy. > > Some might call this anarchy, and I could argue along the lines of David > Graeber that anarchy is a more pure form of democracy practiced in all > "primitive" or "ancient" cultures, it's not a perfect fit, and I intend to > make that reference loosely. My point is to say there should be what David > K calls involution of what government is, to what government was, and to > supplant that, or rather what causes those parts to be pushed to the > margins is to imagine a government where there is mor connection to > agora-like venues where one person speaking in a Zoom-like frame is of > equal stature of any other person speaking in the frame. One can sort of > imagine this with the Zoom-empowered senate hearings which I watched for a > while on the NYT front page. It was really strange to me. I suppose the > danger is that we get to hear Sally Mc? from Arizona use her time to blame > the Chinese for the virus, etc, for more time that we would like. But > that's democracy. > > So one fallout could be that grade-school kids and their resulting > perezhivanie from Zoom-based classrooms, will adopt the tool for political > discussions as adults. Might that be a good thing? > > Maybe. > > At the same time, do you remember a book that came out in the mid90s > called "Silicon Snake Oil"? This is yet another phenomenon of technology, > that people oozing charisma will claw their way to the microphone and pitch > an idea about the next vaporware, who will then make unsubstantiated > promises and claims directed to feed our fantasies and dreams, and who will > then abscond with all the money, only to request not to look at the man > behind the green curtain, or if pulled by the ear into a senate hearing > will say "I thought it was a good idea at the time." etc. > > I think that is the view of Klein about all technology, and there are > merits in that, but there are also other ways to think about it. > > This article about Marc Benioff in Wired recently discusses about the > social entrepreneurship of his wealth: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.wired.com/story/gospel-of-wealth-according-to-marc-benioff/__;!!Mih3wA!SqdH8UX4B61Ki0PXvLufNks5npdfRoYVcGfLPoUWqADutVUZwtjrMn07CbVJOfmjYPxJpQ$ > > Who by they way now owns the magazine Time, the way Jeff Bezos bought the > WaPo, and Lauren Jobs bought The Altlantic, and Pierre Omidyar funded The > Intercept. > > I do invite, as much as you can stomach, anyway, for any educators or > other members of our vibrant list to make regular reading of Wired > Magazine, which is a far more interesting read on technology than something > like Fast Company. I encourage this reading, if only to know the enemy, as > it were. Wired articles are far more nuanced and sophisticated than when > the magazine first got off the ground in the early 90s. I find reading it > helps to connect some dots for those who do not consume technology culture > all the time. Just pick and choose what you are curious about. > > We must become familiar with the vernacular of technology if we want a > hand in the game of how it plays in education, our stomping grounds. This > will require effort on our part. That is not to say we must adopt all the > shiny new toys. But we can be like a Consumer Report for education, and > evaluate and measure the good the bad and the ugly of technology and its > use in the edu sphere. > > We cannot sit on our laurels and wait for someone else to decide for us > how technology will be deployed. That stance is what the mythology of > inevitable technology rests and self-perpetuates. > > We must be more tech literate, and we must be the first to coin words and > how they manifest in edu venues. What works what doesn't. I don't see any > other way to fight back and to keep control of the educational narrative, > where of course we want to hardwire zopeds, manifest and lead critical and > nourishing perezhivanie, and model by example sterling mediated learning > experiences for students and teachers. > > What other projects can there be? > > For me, this is "fighting back" because it makes the sort of shark-like > entrepreneur recede for a time (as they will always be looking for a way > into edu's tax coffers), because we are successful getting education right. > > I do not accept that entreprenuership is what took the sanctity from > teaching and learning. But that's an argument to be made. I feel it is only > one side of the argument. > > Once I had an male acquaintance tell me that one reason women are in > inferior roles is because they let this happen to them. As you might > imagine, I had a real hard time with that argument and I had to clench my > jaw to now spew various vitriol upon him. But after I thought about it, in > a narrow sense he is not wrong because not it is true that enough women in > history identified the value to struggle for rights even if they would not > see equality in their own lifetimes. There are many explanations for why > that did not happen, that are not facile to depict. But then I also had to > think of how much women's struggles have succeeded because they did decide > to not let this happen to them anymore. But now women are learning in the > US, anyway, that nothing fought for is a permanent fixture, and so we must > become resigned to the perpetual struggle for equality, as all marginalized > people must. > > So now I direct this to our context of education in the venue of online > learning. This is not an easy question, and it is not intended to > trivialize the work and efforts of many on this list, but it is instead a > question of inner reflection, or a taking of inventory of one's own life: > > How much has each of you done to take measure and fight for meaningful > education in the classroom? > > Could you have done more? Can you do more? > > Then the same for asking yourself how have you integrated technology > appropriately into your learning methods and general perezhivanie. > > I hope this might provide some further food for thought concerning > preservation on the sanctity of learning and instruction in the classroom. > > So all this is to reply to you Tom, that in short, the nefarious They can > only take control if we let them. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ps please excuse all typos, which are all made on my own. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 11:26 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Hi Annalisa > > Thank you for providing the details of your deep and committed background > in distance / online learning. Mine is obviously shallow, which must have > triggered you and 'Robsub' somewhat. > > But my questioning is in the newer context of the Covid19 threats to > global society and the solutions being sought to extricate us from them. > > Governor Cuomo's conversation with Schmidt to examine solutions to the > problems of present coping and future emergence from the pandemic is > understandable. Two persons with power and a need to act, discuss what > technology (in its widest hard- and software aspects) has to offer. > > In a democracy we can assess the solutions they propose and shape them to > what we know to be as near to optimal for our society as possible. Your > assertion of the efficacy of our agency which Klein seems to deny, > with her politico-economic caveats. > > Schmidt has an evangelism for the potential of technology, but expressed > with such restraint - he's no zealot. He also, in the video of the ECNY > conversation with Marie-Josee Kravis, sees the lack of 'simplicity' in the > three-tier democratic system of the US. He is a CEO with an organisation > geared to problem-analysis, solution choices, and operational capability > which can be put into action without delaying debate. He expressed no > hostility to 'democracy' but as he said, it does not work simply. > > Klein reminds us to be wary if not alarmed, not because she is despairing > (I believe), but because that direct entrepreneurial drive has profit > making as its unavoidable aim. Whatever Schmidt's humanistic feelings, if > profit doesn't result from his and his companies actions, they will not > survive. That competitive drive is also present in his aspirations for > international dominance (see his remarks on the rise of China's technology). > > So far, the sort of distance / online learning you have worked on, has > been nested in the context of family and (normal) school life. That > normality had implicit in it human values, customs and structures, whatever > differences of class, race, gender and culture were present. The melding of > state and enterprise in a newly-developing novel (5G?)high-tech 'solution' > to mediating education presents a situation which need to be examined I > believe. And my query, in that 'Kleinian' context was looking for answers > from those, like yourself, with wide experience of previous technological > 'answers' and their implications for the results within the learner. > > I affirm, along with you, the irrepressible resistance and sheer > cantankerousness we humans bring to unjust situations. But such fighting > back will often be unsuccessful in its aims, when the need to reduce labour > time with new technology is driving events - Luddism and machine looms? Our > human drive to change and adapt, our use of our agency to create or alter > our lives must not be suppressed. But what Klein is reminding us of is just > how tilted is the balance of power - the power of the state and behind it, > the drive from the vast corporate world, for profit. Our agency is so often > undone by the arbitrary intervention of those forces. > > Those are the forces which have destroyed what you name the 'sanctity' of > teaching and learning. I would name it the basic need for those goals, but > we share it. With the need to re-invigorate just such a precious resource, > we will continue to fight like hell. Despite their mere humanness, > corporations and states at present have greater knowledge and power than > 'mere' citizens. My intervention in xmca discussion was really to say > "They're looking to take even more control of daily life. > Within academia, you can analyse how they are making such changes happen > and continue to alert the rest of us, if you fear the consequences of > their changes." > > Best wishes > Tom > > On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 22:29, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? > > Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We > looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, > once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always > a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed > by SL's prospects. > > In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, > I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that > students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one > another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological > fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would > ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. > > Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like > looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. > Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. > > What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, > which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open > space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was > perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. > > I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators > already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online > learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers > during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of > associations of place with learning. > > In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the > AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, > drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in > order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye > coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing > abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and > constrain learning to books. > > We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We > must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. > > I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the > situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of > learning. > > I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out > of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for > quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged > learning venues . Not with grade school. > > I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for > grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally > studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, > although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon > it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess > that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because > parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. > > I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, > nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. > > What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is > childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own > families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!SqdH8UX4B61Ki0PXvLufNks5npdfRoYVcGfLPoUWqADutVUZwtjrMn07CbVJOflhpYQyLQ$ > > > It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, > not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may > also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we > must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. > > It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom > to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the > classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. > > Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the > AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he > could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that > education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People > then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We > see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the > case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of > learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. > > If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to > already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support > well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be > integrated with existing models. > > If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way > to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money > will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. > > One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online > learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may > also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or > riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and > surveillance is a constructive combination. > > There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more > appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet > words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must > better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite > behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown > interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from > what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. > > This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a > mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and > introspection, I will never accept that reality. > > To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say > "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers > and pins." > > I just do not believe this narrative. > > We cannot give up. > > Is there a fight ahead? Yes. > > Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most > definitely, yes. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Hello Annalisa > Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost > none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of > human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour > acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. > > - What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment > created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the > widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such > learning takes place?'. > - What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes > for the *perezhivanie *of the learner, which shapes her social being > and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', > 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? > > Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet > listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what > is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. > I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is > within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. > > Kind regards > Tom > > > On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hello Tom, > > Thank you for posting the link. > > I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly > dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is > not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking > pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended > into our lives. > > I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It > reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and > resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has > become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. > > At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power > in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. > > Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill > Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as > the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment > facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include > Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding > flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his > billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). > > I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage > agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace > illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the > drug wars. These efforts are working. > > Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem > I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. > > She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID > (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control > the world. > > Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of > the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. > Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is > the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to > deliberate the way forward. > > As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to > control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, > or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in > ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be > construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency > to decide how to use our tools. > > Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt > will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled > children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional > online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. > > So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply > does not hold water for me. > > I hope this might be a little encouraging. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Hello Tom Richardson > This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat > Project" that has just finished its > planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human > development, and theories of "Development > in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by > the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. > Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to > actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. > The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of > essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. > In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most > dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced > a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most > members of this discussion over the years, > is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations > have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting > a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). > > We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social > science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp > speed and its invisible. > > Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about > for 100 years. > Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing > working models of effective practices that do NOT > assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. > > Thanks for asking. > mike > > > > On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > > Greetings Xmca-ers > I would like to raise a question. > In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major > questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, > democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international > competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan > approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to > these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been > happening recently: > > > "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks > after that article appeared, he described > the > ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the > country had been forced to cobble together during this public health > emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. > > The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids > learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote > and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will > help kids learn better.? " > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!SqdH8UX4B61Ki0PXvLufNks5npdfRoYVcGfLPoUWqADutVUZwtjrMn07CbVJOfkY14Qiaw$ > > > > Just asking > Tom Richardson > Middlesbrough UK > > > > -- > > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, > translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. > For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net > > . > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200527/a70cad76/attachment.html From rein.raud@tlu.ee Wed May 27 11:08:28 2020 From: rein.raud@tlu.ee (Rein Raud) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 21:08:28 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: < CY4PR0701MB37770A7BD4B3613E52533B4BC1B60@CY4PR0701MB3777.namprd07.prod.outl ook.com> <78D4E5A7-6661-4F59-A41F-A1 FD92995FD6@gmail.com> <29749880-98FE-47D7-84E1-841BB6B9B6C5@gmail.com> <32E7CCCD-69BC-4AB8 -AC9A-E1A8F581835C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, I have to say I?ve found Damasio rather frustrating. Like so many others he seems to assume that it is a proven fact that brain processes cause mental phenomena while remaining unaffected by them, and, moreover, that certain neural correlates exist of particular elements of what goes on in our consciousness. This is indeed a widespread belief, but as far as I know it has not actually been sustained by neuroscience. Of course, the brain is related to conscious activity, and different areas of the brain are involved in different types of activities. But there is neither an overall coordinating centre in the brain, to which ?maps? or ?representations? would be presented for decision-making, nor are separate subsystems of the brain able to produce mental phenomena without input from other systems (which are not even limited to the brain). Also, it seems to me Damasio assumes that all people, regardless of culture, have the same emotional machinery at work in their brains. This, as I understand, has been proved false, as exposure to different ways of culturally conceptualizing emotions, ?emotional vocabularies?, so to speak, have a significant role in how people process their emotional responses to the environment. Tim Lewens has a chapter on this in ?Cultural Evolution?. (I am not on the side of the ?steel and concrete? realists here, from where I stand, it is Damasio who is closer to their camp.) All the best to everyone, Rein > On 27 May 2020, at 19:48, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Tom, Henry, and VO's, > > I'm glad that Henry was able to be of some comfort to your concerns Tom. > > I might also encourage you to read "Betraying Spinoza: The Renegade Jew Who Gave Us Modernity" (2009) by Rebecca Goldstein, as well as "Descartes' Error: Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain" (1995) by Antonio Damasio. > > Betraying Spinoza is one of my favorite books ever. > > The reason that I find Damasio so important in brain research is that he has been able to ascertain that we require our feelings first in order to reason. It's not that other way around, as much as steel and concrete rationalists want to believe. Damasio was able to ascertain this based upon a patient of his who suffered a brain injury to the part of the brain that we understand necessary for feelings. > > To direct a comment to Henry, I think the difference between emotion and feeling as you indicate does have distinctions, and thinking out loud, it is that emotions have something to do with the limbic system, while feelings arise from executive functions (hence as you say the narratives we have about ourselves). > > Another great historical account about Spinoza is "The Courtier and the Heretic" (2007) by Matthew Stewart, which focuses upon the lives of Leibniz and Spinoza and an account of their only meeting. It's a great page turner. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of HENRY SHONERD > > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 10:25 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > [EXTERNAL] > Glad it was helpful, Tom:) > >> On May 27, 2020, at 3:24 AM, Tom Richardson > wrote: >> >> Good Morning Henry >> Your confusions and eventual clarity explain and help a great deal, mirroring my own as I read Damasio's account. I shall dig further with gratitude to you. >> Best >> Tom >> >> BoWen >> >> >> On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 22:29, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: >> Hi Tom, >> No problem enabling your laziness with my shallow reading of Spinzoa. I confess that I have read nothing directly from Spinoza, but have read about his philosphy and about his life. It?s been a while since I read Looking for Spinoza: Joy Sorrow and the Feeling Brain. I am looking at the book now and am amazed with how much highlighting there is and how little of it I remember in detail. What got me into it was the distinction between emotions and feelings. Damasio is a neuroscientist, and the book are full of the neural correlates of affective states, being the ?easy? problem of consciousness. The ?hard? problem of explaining the reason any arrangements at all of matter can possibly result in consciousness is not explained. What got me into it was the distinction between emotions and feelings. Damasio associates emotions (fear, anger, surprise, disgust, sadness and happiness) with primal parts of the brain connected to homeostasis of the organism. Emotions are evoked prior to the more narrative experience of feelings. To tell the truth, I am still not entirely clear on the distinction, largely because he explains the difference through case studies of people who have suffered damage to different parts of the brain, losing me. Maybe I got it at the time, but looking through the book now, it?s not so clear. One interesting thing is that we can have social emotions, which means homeostasis is not just internal to the human organism. >> >> Anyway, the book is worth digging through. Hope that helps a little. Whew! >> >> Henry >> >> >>> On May 26, 2020, at 1:31 PM, Tom Richardson > wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi Henry >>> Thank you for your thoughtful, fact full reply. >>> >>> It would save me continuing to plough through Damasio's well-written but fairly lengthy book 'Looking for Spinoza', if you were to send me a brief personal summary of what he means intellectually for you - (or am I being lazy?) - since it is always illuminating to understand what our thinkers mean to/for our peers. I have not broached Baruch S's work for myself. >>> >>> Best wishes >>> Tom >>> >>> On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 17:09, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: >>> Hi Tom, >>> Thank you for your rich, well-thought-out response to my question. And thank you for recognizing that I wanted it to be generous. Perhaps a quibble is that you associate the first stage of Stalinist rule as capitalist, rather than industrial, as I understand it. I think that?s important. Stalin?s top-down planning had the same hall marks as Mao?s, Castro?s and the current North Korean leader. I appreciate your optimism that any system devised by humans can create human thriving that is not destructive of of humanity itself. We seem to have boxed ourselves into a corner by destroying our niche, the world. COVID-19 and climate change, IMHO, we are all, indvidually and collectively complicit. I hope that we can get beyond romanticism and cynicism in meeting our fate. I think that Vygotsky and Spinoza represent what can come of wrestling with open hearts and clear thinking with our condition. >>> Henry >>> >>> >>>> On May 26, 2020, at 3:09 AM, Tom Richardson > wrote: >>>> >>>> Good Morning (GMT+1) Henry >>>> >>>> I'm touched by your mail today. My life experience does not include such practical engagement as yours, with any of the major social disruptions / attempts at new organisation, of the C20. >>>> >>>> It seems dismissively facile to criticise amazing historic re-organisations of social life like the Cuban Revolution, but it is necessary. Otherwise the same mistakes will happen again and again. >>>> >>>> The political strand which I accept as most accurately analysing historical and current reality characterises the liberation movements (particularities, differences, I'm ignoring for sake of quick explanation) post 1900, as nationalist, and mostly state socialist/capitalist. IE they are top-down, state directed anti-imperialist/colonialist movements. The self-organisation and free association of the producers that is the essence of communist organisation is absent. Often there is some commitment to a Kautskyan / Stalinist "two stage theory", requiring full capitalist development to prepare the ground for the next step of proletarian rule - eg in the South African struggle. We can see where that has led so far. >>>> >>>> But the analysts I accept, posit that socialism in one country cannot be created nor sustained while the basis of total global social reproduction is the money based economy, taken forward by the capital-labour relationship of commodity production - the so-called 'free market' whose anarchy ensures an absence of any organised relationship to global human needs, since it is driven by the value-based circulation of commodities dominating all global production. >>>> >>>> The freedom is that of the individual / joint-stock company in the pursuit of surplus value. And, yes, Marx, does provide an analysis of "money" which indicates how a future system of production would/could not be based on the use of money and therefore wages. >>>> >>>> There is so much literature about this to be investigated, (much of it written by US authors, extraordinarily, given the Chicago School and the legacy of McCarthy). I started with Engels 'Socialism, Utopian and Scientific' which explained in a way that my pro-market, individualist history teacher could not, why the Anti-Corn Law League had 'won' and the Chartists had failed. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I am only recycling, from my own limited understanding, the sort of analysis that the original authors of the literature I value provide in overwhelming but convincing detail. >>>> >>>> While the way forward towards a future that communists see as essential if the planet is not to be destroyed, or at least human life on it, is not in prospect as far as any realist can foresee, at present, the reality of the Barbarism that Capital brings (together with the technology necessary for the possibility of real change), is clear every moment in our lives. >>>> >>>> Human resistance and creative answers to apparently insoluble problems, and the reality that the working class has nothing to gain that sustains real fulfilling human life from capital's continuation, sustain my knowledge that my commitment to moving beyond capitalism, is both essential and realistic. >>>> >>>> I trust that this attempted answer to your generous question makes sufficient sense . >>>> >>>> Best wishes >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 22:26, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: >>>> Hi Tom, >>>> What is it about ?free market economies? is the cause of wage slavery? Is there at least some jiggering of the market that could end ?destructive anarchy?? Do we do away with money? And I am serious here. I take it that capitalism is the problem, not the market, or money. I was in the doctoral program in economics at UC Berkeley during the late 60s. My concentrations were comparative economic systems and economic planning. I dropped out after only getting a masters degree in economics there, and went to Cuba to cut sugar cane with the Venceremos Brigade. I felt strongly Che?s call to make the New Man (though women were there too, and check out the film ?Lucia?) of that era, but I think that central planning (Castro?) of the Cuban economy had a destructive and anarchic side. Castro apologized for his mistakes during the year of 10 million tons of sugar cane production, but the damage was done. Cuba has been a shining light in some ways for me and others, not least the health care workers, the original Doctors Without Borders, that beautifully exemplify the new human. >>>> >>>> So, really, what do we replace markets and money with? Or is it the ?free? part that?s the rub. >>>> >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >>>>> On May 25, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Tom Richardson > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hello Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> "All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is:" >>>>> >>>>> Since I have suggested neither of the alternatives you state as the only way forward, it would surely invalidate your further argument. >>>>> >>>>> But I must admit that the idea of thirty thousand working class families and then some, organising to change the wage-slavery employment system that they are exploited by, would be a great idea. >>>>> Here's to that day, as the freely associated producers of our social life organise to end the destructive anarchy of our present free-market economies. >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> >>>>> Tom >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 19:58, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>>>> Hi Tom and others, >>>>> >>>>> I agree that Capitalism is bad, and that it causes wealth and poverty in extremes. Which then creates social injustices that would be much lessened with less economic inequality. >>>>> >>>>> I do not think that I ever said (did I?) to ignore the traditional power structures. I said that every day we negotiate the power structures. And when we decide it's not working we can create change. That possibility is always an option, but it demands diligence, discipline, and discovery. >>>>> >>>>> All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is: >>>>> 1. it's futile. Give up. The structures will always be against us. Settle in to your given hand of bad fortune. >>>>> 2. grab a gun and kill as many people sitting in seats of power (which means the chair of power remains to be replaced by someone else). >>>>> >>>>> Forgive me if I reject both those options. >>>>> >>>>> As I said, perhaps in another post, the liberal position of citing data and objecting to the existence of that data, isn't going to make power structures change. >>>>> >>>>> What would make change is for those 15K-30K families to organize and among themselves decide how and what they can do to make their lot better. >>>>> >>>>> It's called organizing. >>>>> >>>>> Civil disobedience works because it is civil. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >>>>> Sent: Monday, May 25, 2020 3:25 AM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>>> >>>>> [EXTERNAL] >>>>> Hi Annalisa >>>>> Good Morning - just a correction to figures about poverty in our town - I should have been more careful,; fortunately the figures from memory were an underestimate rather than an exaggeration: >>>>> Almost 30,000 children are living in poverty across Teesside - and half are from working families. >>>>> >>>>> And stark new statistics reveal that the picture is worst in central Middlesbrough - as hyper-local, official Government data reveals three quarters of all kids in one neighbourhood are living below the breadline. >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> >>>>> Tom >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> BoWen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 22:17, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>>>> Alas, hello again Tom (& VO's), >>>>> >>>>> While I accept your assessment of our differences in approaches and understandings, I do not see that it is obvious that there is no meeting point. >>>>> >>>>> For example, innovation exists in science and in art, in business it is entrepreneurship. I believe that there are good things that come from business entrepreneurship, and there are bad things too. We love that art and science are innovative, when they are, but there can be failings there too. >>>>> >>>>> The captains of industry who believe they are self-made men, and who believe that anyone who decides for oneself being on the assembly line of the manufacturing floor is only a dumb pawn in a larger game, would be in my estimation the worst that kind of human that entrepreneurship generates. Elon Musk is one example, perhaps. >>>>> >>>>> As much as I likely would not want Elon Musk over for dinner, I can admire that he has been able to steward the creation of an electric car in the midst of a sleepwalking auto industry that cannot envision automobiles without a gas-eating combustible engine. >>>>> >>>>> At the same time what he gives he takes away: I'm not sure that I can ever get on board a space rocket to inhabit Mars. I actually object to that project because as long as we haven't worked out how to feed everyone on this earthship, we should not be escaping it by polluting another planet, even if, as Carl Sagan told us, there are billions and billions of them out there. >>>>> >>>>> "They" in the form of (other they)'s do not have power unless we give them that power. That power is always up for debate every minute, every day, every year. >>>>> >>>>> Given that there are now 38 million unemployed in the US (I can't name the numbers elsewhere and I'm sorry about that), that's like the entire population of California being on the dole. It is a significant number, and it may be that many of those people start their own businesses, not because of education or desire, but of necessity. >>>>> >>>>> Many of the young and unemployed are educated. That could be a combustible cocktail, depending upon their self-awareness and outward worldview. >>>>> >>>>> One strange article in NYT described a scene designer who has been out of work since the health order shutdown, and hasn't received any unemployment yet because she filed in New Jersey, while her partner did because he filed in New York. Then she got an offer to work in a company who is making ... wait for it.... facemasks, so now she is toiling over a machine, sewing facemasks. >>>>> >>>>> I don't think I could live in that situation because of the stark irony, if that is a just word for that. I mourn the loss of her creativity, but I hope it is temporary. >>>>> >>>>> Now out of necessity, she's had to travel that path. So I can agree with you that because of the government order to shut down business, and because a company who hired her decided to make facemasks, because what other ingenious product would or could one manufacture right now? they have shaped her working life. Have they shaped her social life, though. I mean completely? She still has her contacts on her iPhone, she likely returns home to her partner to cook dinner and search for more work. Her desires and dreams are likely impacted, but has she completely given up? Should she? >>>>> >>>>> I am not pro-revolution, only because they create rivers of blood in streets, etc. I'm more of the mind that incremental choices can together create a tipping point of social change. >>>>> >>>>> For example, consider the tiny house movement. Or how young people will share resources, or reevaluate buying things, or what they eat. >>>>> >>>>> People make the best lemonade only with the best lemons. >>>>> >>>>> There is going to have to be a reckoning of having so many unemployed people. It can't be ignored. To just pretend that everyone will be happy with a lower wage job (lower than when the pandemic hit), is only going to drive people to desperate measures. The country will want to put people to work and this could be an opportunity for collective change, for creating meaningful jobs. >>>>> >>>>> Because who wants a civil war. >>>>> >>>>> So there will have to be some sort of appeasement for the social reality that people must have their basic needs met. The temporary stimulus is a lifeline, but the real economic difficulties will start when people start to return to work, and there are less jobs with the result being there is less money circulating in the economy overall. With interest rates so low, and pumping more money into the economy is only going to raise the prices of things, possibly wages, but not the buying power. >>>>> >>>>> People will cut bait from the lives they once had, and simplify. Moving to less crowded cities and towns, returning to live with parents. Perhaps creating cooperatives. One area for discovery with so much time on one's hands is handcrafting. I think there will be a blooming of new businesses that incorporate *real* labor. This may also usher in more vocational training programs. >>>>> >>>>> One article I read today discussed the eating of meat, and how it is a destructive social practice including its impact on climate change. Largely that industry depends upon of automation, and now with slaughterhouses being virus hotspots, do you want to trust that the meat you buy is not tainted with COVID? Or that you are forcing a worker into an unsafe work environment and catch the virus? >>>>> >>>>> If people were decide to stop eating meat, or reduce even its consumption because it's too expensive, and if the government stops giving subsidies to these agro-corporations, then these polluting companies will fail. That would be great news. >>>>> >>>>> Then the writer pointed out that if we returned to diets higher in plant-based food, that would increase demand for real farms, real entrepreneurship and generate jobs, as it takes more people to grow vegetables, than it does to raise pigs or chickens. We would also become healthier as a population. There is already a network of farmer's markets for local produce, so it may mean a growth in that area. >>>>> >>>>> I suppose what I'm trying to say is I do not think it is so cut and dried that we are subject to the worst forever. I think with so much time on our hands people are free to organize and decide to help one another in mutual aid. We do not have to rely on traditional power structures, and we do not have to resort to bloody revolutions. >>>>> >>>>> Depending upon what you are looking for in life, there is a third way arising. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 4:24 AM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>>> >>>>> [EXTERNAL] >>>>> Hello once more Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> Our difference of approach to and understanding of the modern state and the production of social life obviously admits of no meeting point as far as I read your astonishingly wide-ranging and impassioned response. >>>>> >>>>> Without the simplicity of my reply intending to signal a facile sarcasm, I must bluntly state that I begin from the acceptance that nefarious or not, 'They', in the sense of government and corporations, do have the power to control and shape the organisation of social life. We can, if enough socio-political pressure can be brought to bear through social movements, rebellions, revolts, shift certain aspects of that fashioning of our lives. >>>>> >>>>> But at present, the relationship of wage slavery imposed by Capital ,and the society shaped by that relationship, are dominant throughout the life of our planet. >>>>> >>>>> Sad at such an impasse, since we both wish the best for humanity >>>>> >>>>> Tom >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 21:46, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>>>> Hi Tom, and VO's of XMCA >>>>> >>>>> Concerning your questions about our new normal now that COVID19 is with us and here to stay, I think your guess is as good as anyone's. I am not sure if we as humans have ever been burdened with such an event as this, and at the same time are able to watch the unfolding events and respond (or not respond if you are a stable genius) quickly from the feedback of data, news, anecdotes, and other forms of perception of how the virus is impacting us. >>>>> >>>>> What is worth remembering as well, is that epidemiologists have been warning us for decades that a pandemic was a clear an present danger to the way we live and negotiate the modern world. We see in sensurround how right they were. >>>>> >>>>> As I consider your question, I have to think that people mow might be sorted into two classes, well at least two classes: >>>>> >>>>> People who seem to think the virus is just another flu and once we find a vaccine, all will return to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday or pre-pandemic time you mark your calendar as before the pandemic hit, which of course depends upon where on the earth you are located). >>>>> People who seem to think the virus has changed us and there will never be going back to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday...) >>>>> I suspect the Americans of the neo-conservative persuasion who have been motivated to protest health order social distancing believe that not only this is a conspiracy to control fredom-loving people, but that we should return to Christmas 2019 as soon as possible, they are of Cohort 1. >>>>> >>>>> I think Cohort 2 are going to be people who take in the facts and the data and are actively attempting to sort out where do we go from here. I feel confident you are in Cohort 2, as ar most people on this list. >>>>> >>>>> Now, as Carol M has pointed out, in a lot of ways our discussion about online learning is a first world concern, for those who have an internet connection that is ubiquitous not only at home, but at school, work, on the bus, on planes, in cafes, and other public gathering spaces, like city halls, or town squares. That's another reason why it's hard to take Klein seriously, in terms of *tone*. >>>>> >>>>> I recall reading something from George Lakoff when he indicates that there is a liberal stance that seems to believe that if one objects loudly enough with "sky is falling" rhetoric and then feed out various data, that using this strategy the audience will become motivated to protest in the streets, write letters to congress, run for office, or whatever civil action must be done, and with alacrity. It doesn't work. I do not think being against anything ever "works." I think only being for something works. >>>>> >>>>> Let's look at Klein's article as an example. If she were to be rhetorically successful she would outline the problem she identifies (Mr. Schmidt goes to Washington), but instead of all that is wrong, talk about what can be right. Not to say she should agree with Mr. Schmidt and his ways. >>>>> >>>>> I feel her article could be a lot heavier on what works with education and how to enhance that further. She does mention how money should b used more for school nurses, smaller classrooms, etc. This is where she could have expanded beautifully into a viable solution to spark everyone's imaginations. But she didn't do that. She is more motivated it seems to mark Mr. Schmidt and his technological minions to masterminding a New World Order that will steal our souls and tether us to the Matrix from now until the end of time. >>>>> >>>>> I also feel she would have been more conducive to discourse by writing an open letter to Cuomo and Schmidt, and to invite a response. This is also leading by example to cultivate democratic processes that are near and dear to all of us. Instead she "otherfies" them, and this is also not useful. And I am not saying that as a stance to defend Mr. Schmidt or Gov Cuomo, in any way. >>>>> >>>>> So back to your question, I do not think that there is any way we will be extricated from this reality of COVID 19. We will have to pick our stones across the river carefully so that none of us slips and is carried down the rapids. I feel it is more useful to say we are a family of one kind, and all of us have to stay together to make it across. And that all of us deserves a life jacket as a measure of survival because not all of us will get to the other side without getting wet, or falling in. >>>>> >>>>> The tension between CEOs and their contempt for the slow-food of democracy is well known. If only they could persuade all of us to eat fast food, then they could take over the world as the next McDonalds, in terms of technological vision, whatever a McDonalds would look like on a screen, as an app, whathaveyou. >>>>> >>>>> Unfortunately what seems to elude folks who have not worked in tech, or those who see tech as just another new Ford in the garage, is that technology is always in flux. There is always development of new hardware that needs new software written to use it, so there is a double-quicksand of events upon which technology is founded (and funded) upon. That's what Moore's Law is about. >>>>> >>>>> Technology in order to "be itself" must always move fleetingly, like the shark must to breathe. Technology will never be able to last the halls of government. For that reason, any rendition of technology in government (and school systems for that matter) will be like bad combovers that are meant to convince us that we are now more attractive and appealing (not meaning to offend those who live by their combovers...) >>>>> >>>>> Where I feel technology could best serve us is to help create grassroots democracy tools, to support what we know is possible and could even threaten the basis for representative democracy and bring it closer to a straight agora democracy. >>>>> >>>>> Some might call this anarchy, and I could argue along the lines of David Graeber that anarchy is a more pure form of democracy practiced in all "primitive" or "ancient" cultures, it's not a perfect fit, and I intend to make that reference loosely. My point is to say there should be what David K calls involution of what government is, to what government was, and to supplant that, or rather what causes those parts to be pushed to the margins is to imagine a government where there is mor connection to agora-like venues where one person speaking in a Zoom-like frame is of equal stature of any other person speaking in the frame. One can sort of imagine this with the Zoom-empowered senate hearings which I watched for a while on the NYT front page. It was really strange to me. I suppose the danger is that we get to hear Sally Mc? from Arizona use her time to blame the Chinese for the virus, etc, for more time that we would like. But that's democracy. >>>>> >>>>> So one fallout could be that grade-school kids and their resulting perezhivanie from Zoom-based classrooms, will adopt the tool for political discussions as adults. Might that be a good thing? >>>>> >>>>> Maybe. >>>>> >>>>> At the same time, do you remember a book that came out in the mid90s called "Silicon Snake Oil"? This is yet another phenomenon of technology, that people oozing charisma will claw their way to the microphone and pitch an idea about the next vaporware, who will then make unsubstantiated promises and claims directed to feed our fantasies and dreams, and who will then abscond with all the money, only to request not to look at the man behind the green curtain, or if pulled by the ear into a senate hearing will say "I thought it was a good idea at the time." etc. >>>>> >>>>> I think that is the view of Klein about all technology, and there are merits in that, but there are also other ways to think about it. >>>>> >>>>> This article about Marc Benioff in Wired recently discusses about the social entrepreneurship of his wealth:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.wired.com/story/gospel-of-wealth-according-to-marc-benioff/__;!!Mih3wA!QAZ11mSGaAn3vmS-bYVX_NwQ9qfBXfSOcPp8DM8jGtre2Imlg6ijB5DmTNybEa9lkpTqqA$ >>>>> Who by they way now owns the magazine Time, the way Jeff Bezos bought the WaPo, and Lauren Jobs bought The Altlantic, and Pierre Omidyar funded The Intercept. >>>>> >>>>> I do invite, as much as you can stomach, anyway, for any educators or other members of our vibrant list to make regular reading of Wired Magazine, which is a far more interesting read on technology than something like Fast Company. I encourage this reading, if only to know the enemy, as it were. Wired articles are far more nuanced and sophisticated than when the magazine first got off the ground in the early 90s. I find reading it helps to connect some dots for those who do not consume technology culture all the time. Just pick and choose what you are curious about. >>>>> >>>>> We must become familiar with the vernacular of technology if we want a hand in the game of how it plays in education, our stomping grounds. This will require effort on our part. That is not to say we must adopt all the shiny new toys. But we can be like a Consumer Report for education, and evaluate and measure the good the bad and the ugly of technology and its use in the edu sphere. >>>>> >>>>> We cannot sit on our laurels and wait for someone else to decide for us how technology will be deployed. That stance is what the mythology of inevitable technology rests and self-perpetuates. >>>>> >>>>> We must be more tech literate, and we must be the first to coin words and how they manifest in edu venues. What works what doesn't. I don't see any other way to fight back and to keep control of the educational narrative, where of course we want to hardwire zopeds, manifest and lead critical and nourishing perezhivanie, and model by example sterling mediated learning experiences for students and teachers. >>>>> >>>>> What other projects can there be? >>>>> >>>>> For me, this is "fighting back" because it makes the sort of shark-like entrepreneur recede for a time (as they will always be looking for a way into edu's tax coffers), because we are successful getting education right. >>>>> >>>>> I do not accept that entreprenuership is what took the sanctity from teaching and learning. But that's an argument to be made. I feel it is only one side of the argument. >>>>> >>>>> Once I had an male acquaintance tell me that one reason women are in inferior roles is because they let this happen to them. As you might imagine, I had a real hard time with that argument and I had to clench my jaw to now spew various vitriol upon him. But after I thought about it, in a narrow sense he is not wrong because not it is true that enough women in history identified the value to struggle for rights even if they would not see equality in their own lifetimes. There are many explanations for why that did not happen, that are not facile to depict. But then I also had to think of how much women's struggles have succeeded because they did decide to not let this happen to them anymore. But now women are learning in the US, anyway, that nothing fought for is a permanent fixture, and so we must become resigned to the perpetual struggle for equality, as all marginalized people must. >>>>> >>>>> So now I direct this to our context of education in the venue of online learning. This is not an easy question, and it is not intended to trivialize the work and efforts of many on this list, but it is instead a question of inner reflection, or a taking of inventory of one's own life: >>>>> >>>>> How much has each of you done to take measure and fight for meaningful education in the classroom? >>>>> >>>>> Could you have done more? Can you do more? >>>>> >>>>> Then the same for asking yourself how have you integrated technology appropriately into your learning methods and general perezhivanie. >>>>> >>>>> I hope this might provide some further food for thought concerning preservation on the sanctity of learning and instruction in the classroom. >>>>> >>>>> So all this is to reply to you Tom, that in short, the nefarious They can only take control if we let them. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> ps please excuse all typos, which are all made on my own. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 11:26 AM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>>> >>>>> [EXTERNAL] >>>>> Hi Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for providing the details of your deep and committed background in distance / online learning. Mine is obviously shallow, which must have triggered you and 'Robsub' somewhat. >>>>> >>>>> But my questioning is in the newer context of the Covid19 threats to global society and the solutions being sought to extricate us from them. >>>>> >>>>> Governor Cuomo's conversation with Schmidt to examine solutions to the problems of present coping and future emergence from the pandemic is understandable. Two persons with power and a need to act, discuss what technology (in its widest hard- and software aspects) has to offer. >>>>> >>>>> In a democracy we can assess the solutions they propose and shape them to what we know to be as near to optimal for our society as possible. Your assertion of the efficacy of our agency which Klein seems to deny, >>>>> with her politico-economic caveats. >>>>> >>>>> Schmidt has an evangelism for the potential of technology, but expressed with such restraint - he's no zealot. He also, in the video of the ECNY conversation with Marie-Josee Kravis, sees the lack of 'simplicity' in the three-tier democratic system of the US. He is a CEO with an organisation geared to problem-analysis, solution choices, and operational capability which can be put into action without delaying debate. He expressed no hostility to 'democracy' but as he said, it does not work simply. >>>>> >>>>> Klein reminds us to be wary if not alarmed, not because she is despairing (I believe), but because that direct entrepreneurial drive has profit making as its unavoidable aim. Whatever Schmidt's humanistic feelings, if profit doesn't result from his and his companies actions, they will not survive. That competitive drive is also present in his aspirations for international dominance (see his remarks on the rise of China's technology). >>>>> >>>>> So far, the sort of distance / online learning you have worked on, has been nested in the context of family and (normal) school life. That normality had implicit in it human values, customs and structures, whatever differences of class, race, gender and culture were present. The melding of state and enterprise in a newly-developing novel (5G?)high-tech 'solution' to mediating education presents a situation which need to be examined I believe. And my query, in that 'Kleinian' context was looking for answers from those, like yourself, with wide experience of previous technological 'answers' and their implications for the results within the learner. >>>>> >>>>> I affirm, along with you, the irrepressible resistance and sheer cantankerousness we humans bring to unjust situations. But such fighting back will often be unsuccessful in its aims, when the need to reduce labour time with new technology is driving events - Luddism and machine looms? Our human drive to change and adapt, our use of our agency to create or alter our lives must not be suppressed. But what Klein is reminding us of is just how tilted is the balance of power - the power of the state and behind it, the drive from the vast corporate world, for profit. Our agency is so often undone by the arbitrary intervention of those forces. >>>>> >>>>> Those are the forces which have destroyed what you name the 'sanctity' of teaching and learning. I would name it the basic need for those goals, but we share it. With the need to re-invigorate just such a precious resource, we will continue to fight like hell. Despite their mere humanness, corporations and states at present have greater knowledge and power than 'mere' citizens. My intervention in xmca discussion was really to say "They're looking to take even more control of daily life. >>>>> Within academia, you can analyse how they are making such changes happen and continue to alert the rest of us, if you fear the consequences of their changes." >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes >>>>> Tom >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 22:29, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>>>> Hi Tom, >>>>> >>>>> May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? >>>>> >>>>> Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed by SL's prospects. >>>>> >>>>> In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. >>>>> >>>>> Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. >>>>> >>>>> What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. >>>>> >>>>> I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of associations of place with learning. >>>>> >>>>> In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and constrain learning to books. >>>>> >>>>> We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. >>>>> >>>>> I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of learning. >>>>> >>>>> I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged learning venues . Not with grade school. >>>>> >>>>> I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. >>>>> >>>>> I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. >>>>> >>>>> What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!QAZ11mSGaAn3vmS-bYVX_NwQ9qfBXfSOcPp8DM8jGtre2Imlg6ijB5DmTNybEa8SVIIEqw$ >>>>> >>>>> It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. >>>>> >>>>> It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. >>>>> >>>>> Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. >>>>> >>>>> If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be integrated with existing models. >>>>> >>>>> If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. >>>>> >>>>> One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and surveillance is a constructive combination. >>>>> >>>>> There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. >>>>> >>>>> This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and introspection, I will never accept that reality. >>>>> >>>>> To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers and pins." >>>>> >>>>> I just do not believe this narrative. >>>>> >>>>> We cannot give up. >>>>> >>>>> Is there a fight ahead? Yes. >>>>> >>>>> Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most definitely, yes. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>>> >>>>> [EXTERNAL] >>>>> >>>>> Hello Annalisa >>>>> Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. >>>>> What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such learning takes place?'. >>>>> What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes for the perezhivanie of the learner, which shapes her social being and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? >>>>> Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. >>>>> I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards >>>>> Tom >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>>>> Hello Tom, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for posting the link. >>>>> >>>>> I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended into our lives. >>>>> >>>>> I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. >>>>> >>>>> At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. >>>>> >>>>> Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). >>>>> >>>>> I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. >>>>> >>>>> Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. >>>>> >>>>> She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control the world. >>>>> >>>>> Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to deliberate the way forward. >>>>> >>>>> As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency to decide how to use our tools. >>>>> >>>>> Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. >>>>> >>>>> So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply does not hold water for me. >>>>> >>>>> I hope this might be a little encouraging. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>>> >>>>> [EXTERNAL] >>>>> Hello Tom Richardson >>>>> This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat Project" that has just finished its >>>>> planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human development, and theories of "Development >>>>> in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. >>>>> Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. >>>>> The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. >>>>> In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced >>>>> a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most members of this discussion over the years, >>>>> is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). >>>>> >>>>> We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. >>>>> >>>>> Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about for 100 years. >>>>> Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing working models of effective practices that do NOT >>>>> assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for asking. >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson > wrote: >>>>> Greetings Xmca-ers >>>>> I would like to raise a question. >>>>> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening recently: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks after that article appeared, he described the ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the country had been forced to cobble together during this public health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. >>>>> >>>>> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " >>>>> >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!QAZ11mSGaAn3vmS-bYVX_NwQ9qfBXfSOcPp8DM8jGtre2Imlg6ijB5DmTNybEa-nqMCnhA$ >>>>> >>>>> Just asking >>>>> Tom Richardson >>>>> Middlesbrough UK >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >>>>> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>> For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu . >>>>> For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . >>>>> For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200527/dae84ce8/attachment-0001.html From annalisa@unm.edu Wed May 27 11:40:40 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 18:40:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hello Michael, and others holding on tight to this thread (and everyone else too), Thank you for the distinction between teacher presence and social presence. It is helpful. As far as ZOOM, I believe that the ONLY reason we are using ZOOM for school is because it is there and people know about it. It's totally ad hoc. I agree with you that it was designed for adults meeting online for corporate reasons, or otherwise. I had begun using it some years ago for an online Sanskrit study group that I am a member. I liked that ZOOM has the ability to offer shared screens, and that it is (was?) secure. ZOOM has been considered better than Skype, because 1) Skype was bought by Microsoft at some point, and MS doesn't have the the best proactive stance on security and privacy (at least it didn't used to be) and 2) ZOOM was (until ZOOM bombing happened during its use in the pandemic as an ad hoc classroom platform) considered more secure and as a company seemed to take privacy seriously. People like Ed Snowden and Julian Assange would remotely attend and present at various computer security and digital freedom conferences using ZOOM, which isn't exactly corporate. Don't know if they still do (well Assange most definitely not). I feel ZOOM as an org have been very responsive to user concerns after the ZOOM bombings. I'm not trying to upsell anyone on ZOOM, but it would not surprise me if the company began to ingest the concerns of classroom learning and are right now designing for that target scenario, given that we do not know how long this pandemic will last, nor how long it will impact classroom learning. What I meant about ZOOM (no edu vs edu with ZOOM) was specific to the pandemic. Should we have no education no matter how non-ideal the platform is and let kids languish with their parents in the at-home health order lockdown, or should we try to provide some sort of connection so that kids can *try* to keep learning, despite everything else? I am with you that ZOOM was not designed to be used as it is being used. What I'm reminding everyone is that the tool is plastic, but only if as a group we push back and inform the company to redesign its tool more appropriately. As it is with all tools. They develop. That's not ever to be interpreted that ZOOM should supplant IRL classroom learning. I would never agree with that. But, for example, it might be a way, after the pandemic has passed, kids who are sick at home to keep up in their schoolwork, and to have homework study sessions with peers remotely. There is a lot of potential if placed in a proper context. It's just another tool (of many) in the learning toolbox. Granted, there are always reservations I have for a tool/platform used for education and, in its current use, ZOOM almost approaches a public utility, given the times we are living in, and how much we are relying upon it to stay connected. Does the company have an obligation to design for the public need? I think it does. With that in mind, I don't think I can respond to the comment about having a nail in my foot. I don't think that it has anything to do with the context that I offered the question "To ZOOM or not to ZOOM?" In a sense, this is the Betamax vs VHS conundrum. It's not always the better technology that wins, but the one that is more ubiquitous. However, ZOOM is in this instance a pretty good tool, in terms of stability with video and audio streaming live. That is a non-trivial problem to solve. A platform like ZOOM was a fantasy in the early days of the Internet (meaning mid1990s, actually). So before kicking the tires too much, remember where we once were 20 years ago. I agree 100% it's not the ideal platform for classroom learning but there is huge potential to improve it. The only reason people are using it is because it has become ubiquitous and it's not hard to get it up and running (if you have internet and a computer of course). That is likely how it is with all tools that become de facto tools for learning. But as I've said before there is always the off button. Please, I do say this tempest in a teapot about ZOOM being fully aware this is a first-world privileged complaint. Those families who can't afford a computer and internet during the pandemic are fully shut out and that is just wrong. (Also, my very somber nod to Carol M in South Africa about even worse environments where learning is "expected" to happen.) I also am on board with your comments, Michael, about ubiquitous internet connection, because the internet more than any time can be seen as a necessary and vital utility for the public good, like electricity, water, and TV/radio airwaves. I believe the internet, but moreso many internet companies obscenely profiting from riding on the tails of the internet, should be more equitably regulated. Yet, when we begin discourse about "the internet for everyone," we also are pulling in by the ears security and privacy issues. I recommend everyone take a jaunt over to the EFF's website (eff.org) and familiarize yourself with them. They are one organization who is concerned about these issues in the new digital reality we find ourselves. They are sort of an ACLU for the Internet and other digital citizen issues. I think we agree, Michael, that education is not binary when we look at all the environments across the world as they were before the pandemic and to how they've been impacted after. I hope it's clear now that I was being very specific about ZOOM during the pandemic. Without meaning to put words in your mouth, I think we also agree learning and teaching is missing the sanctity it deserves all over the globe, and has for a very long time. Regardless, we have to make do with what tools we have and whatever is accessible to us. I feel also that it's time for teachers to try to play with the digital tools that are out there, and start advocating for designs more appropriate for learning and teaching. Try to participate and influence the narrative in whatever way feels right to you, but don't sit on the sidelines and object to the reality we find ourselves. Well, you can do that, but I think you will be, and more so in time, a faint voice yelling into the wind. Here's a possibility: we might organize and called ourselves Educators for Digital Equality (All over the world) "EDEA" is a nice loose acronym. Would you join? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Glassman, Michael Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 7:47 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" [EXTERNAL] Hello David, Elizabeth, Annalisa, Rob, others, Well social presence and teacher presence are two completely different lines of research and thinking even though they sound alike. Teacher presence comes from localized classroom research while social presence comes from the communication field I believe sometime in the 1960s. Lately I have begun to think of teacher presence as similar to Bourdeiu's cultural capital. Our education system teaches certain groups of children how to read and get in sync with teachers from their more subtle physical signs so that they become more successful later in their school careers and in life. Many of the more successful children also get practice in reading these different signs at home. It is the old adage, don't listen to what I say, watch what I do. Social presence on the other hand is more related to our own understanding of our own communications and the value of those communications. We have a sense of what we are doing from those who are watching us (in the broad sense), and this sense changes as our sense of those who are watching us changes not only how we act but the investment we make in what we do changes accordingly. I see it all the time in teachers, who they are changes completely when they get up in from of a room of students. Just a mind experiment. The next time you read an XMCA post see if you can imagine a few of the members standing over your should observing you are you are reading with the expectation of some response. See how this might change your behavior. As for Zoom. I just think it is not a good tool for education and the reason we use it is illusory (because it recreates a place-based experience so we are more comfortable with it?). Zoom's purpose is not education in the sense of knowledge sharing and knowledge creation. Its proximal purpose I believe was to sell to corporations and such for meetings so they would not have to spend as much on travel. Its distal purpose, meeting platforms in general, was so individuals could engage in multiple activities related to the topic but not focused on the topic. I mean it is kind of cool, you can have a meeting where you wear a tie on top and boxer shorts below. And we are sometimes a talking head culture. But it is by nature very unilateral and expert oriented. Do we have to develop a whole new cultural capital oeuvre for Zoom meetings. We must make sure that those who are ahead stay ahead. Annalisa in answer to your question no education or Zoom, I worry about binary choices such as this. Maybe we should be asking ourselves how we got here in the first place. Why are these our only two choices right now, and many attempts using Meeting platforms are failing as they seem to be, how do we move forward from here. Why aren't we asking more questions, trying to understand how our great digital experiment is failing education. And speaking to Rob's poignant use of the term pink space, why is the lack of universal broadband dominating discussions. I think about the whole one to one movement and I really question why we leaped ahead to this without a reckoning over the need to have every corner of our society equitably wired (spoiler alert: because instead of corporations making oodles of money our society will have to spend oodles of money). So Annalisa I got back to your question, is it better to have no education or Zoom and I ask if you stepped on a nail would it be better to put on a band-aid to stop the bleeding or to figure our how to save your life (I know the answer will be both but where do I prioritize). Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of robsub@ariadne.org.uk Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 4:53 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" Just a couple of very quick observations. (I find regularly that by the time I have formulated my response to something, the conversation has moved on by several degrees, so I'm getting in quickly.) Firstly the link to your article on Ruqaiya didn't resolve, David. But I found it here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-UtouXiIa-kw$ . Thank you for that, though - looks well worth reading. Secondly, I always had the impression that Bernstein was resisted not because of his work on codes specifically, but because he was too prone to allowing his work to be used to justify class differentials, almost to the level of the poor keep themselves poor by deliberately restricting the language their children learn. Thirdly, meatspace. Hmmm. I'm toying with the idea of pinkspace. Less physically vulgar than meatspace and reflects the reality that the physical world, just like the online world, is dominated by those of us who are pink. Just a thought. Needs developing though. Rob On 2020-05-26 03:08, David Kellogg wrote: > Michael, Anthony, Elizabeth--and (of course) Annalisa: > > I apologize for changing the threadline title AGAIN. I feel like the > five-year-old who is always unscrewing the back of the TV set to see > the little people inside; I was very dissatisfied withe the abstract > theory on the other line, according to which everything is everything > and mediation and unmediation are equally both and I wanted a way of > finding the people inside it. I thought the term "meatspace", which > Annalisa has heard before, captured that feeling pretty well (and > there are also some echoes of a corruscating book review I once read > in MCA titled something like "Yer askin' me to believe in sentient > MEAT????") > > Let's use Michael's categories of "teacher presence" and "social > presence" instead, so long as we keep in mind the point that Michael > made at the end, that is, the teacher is always present even when the > teacher is not present (as when the child is doing homework alone) and > the additional point that teacher presence is one kind of social > presence. But because presence and absence are (like mediated and > unmediated) equally both ungradeable categories, I would prefer to > talk about teacher distancing and social distancing. Michael Osterholm > has objected to the term social distancing for the same reasons I > raised earlier--it's a physical, mechanical distancing that actually > creates a higher form of solidarity (and that is why the elements of > society which oppose higher forms of solidarity oppose it). So I put > "social distancing" in scare quotes. But the teacher distancing is > real enough. > > Real but not by itself of developmental significance. What worries me > is the possibility that we are adding to the kinds of inequalitiees > that Annalisa, Henry and Tom are talking about on the other thread. It > seems to me that teacher distancing differentially hurts some > populations. I disagree that Koreans are more homogeneous than other > cultures (in class terms significantly less so) and I also think that > if you were to sit through a lecture in the Korean language without > understanding Korean you would not agree that language is the least > important aspect of teacher presence. But (to bring these two > together) I think that students who are able to focus on language, and > on particular kinds of language, are disproportionately enabled in > conditions of teacher distancing. This is the issue that dare not > speak its name, for when Bernstein tried to raise it he was, as > Halliday noted, "driven out of the field". One of the reasons I wrote > the article linked below is that Ruqaiya Hasan was not. > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie > w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d > 7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-Utot_Yz0eEQ$ [1] > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: _L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological > Works_ _Volume One: Foundations of Pedology_" > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 > 5270__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqO > DPVr-UtotPljj6rQ$ [2] > > > Links: > ------ > [1] > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie > w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zc > e9P2I5M_FZBJKElhGyP20UejX0w$ > [2] > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 > 5270__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zce9P2I5M_FZB > JKElhGyP026P9-1A$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200527/8bf3f79d/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed May 27 12:56:15 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 13:56:15 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: <78D4E5A7-6661-4F59-A41F-A1FD92995FD6@gmail.com> <29749880-98FE-47D7-84E1-841BB6B9B6C5@gmail.com> <32E7CCCD-69BC-4AB8-AC9A-E1A8F581835C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, Annalisa, it?s coming back to me, the part about feelings being necessary for reasoning. Hence, Descartes? Error. H > On May 27, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Tom, Henry, and VO's, > > I'm glad that Henry was able to be of some comfort to your concerns Tom. > > I might also encourage you to read "Betraying Spinoza: The Renegade Jew Who Gave Us Modernity" (2009) by Rebecca Goldstein, as well as "Descartes' Error: Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain" (1995) by Antonio Damasio. > > Betraying Spinoza is one of my favorite books ever. > > The reason that I find Damasio so important in brain research is that he has been able to ascertain that we require our feelings first in order to reason. It's not that other way around, as much as steel and concrete rationalists want to believe. Damasio was able to ascertain this based upon a patient of his who suffered a brain injury to the part of the brain that we understand necessary for feelings. > > To direct a comment to Henry, I think the difference between emotion and feeling as you indicate does have distinctions, and thinking out loud, it is that emotions have something to do with the limbic system, while feelings arise from executive functions (hence as you say the narratives we have about ourselves). > > Another great historical account about Spinoza is "The Courtier and the Heretic" (2007) by Matthew Stewart, which focuses upon the lives of Leibniz and Spinoza and an account of their only meeting. It's a great page turner. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of HENRY SHONERD > > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 10:25 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? > > [EXTERNAL] > Glad it was helpful, Tom:) > >> On May 27, 2020, at 3:24 AM, Tom Richardson > wrote: >> >> Good Morning Henry >> Your confusions and eventual clarity explain and help a great deal, mirroring my own as I read Damasio's account. I shall dig further with gratitude to you. >> Best >> Tom >> >> BoWen >> >> >> On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 22:29, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: >> Hi Tom, >> No problem enabling your laziness with my shallow reading of Spinzoa. I confess that I have read nothing directly from Spinoza, but have read about his philosphy and about his life. It?s been a while since I read Looking for Spinoza: Joy Sorrow and the Feeling Brain. I am looking at the book now and am amazed with how much highlighting there is and how little of it I remember in detail. What got me into it was the distinction between emotions and feelings. Damasio is a neuroscientist, and the book are full of the neural correlates of affective states, being the ?easy? problem of consciousness. The ?hard? problem of explaining the reason any arrangements at all of matter can possibly result in consciousness is not explained. What got me into it was the distinction between emotions and feelings. Damasio associates emotions (fear, anger, surprise, disgust, sadness and happiness) with primal parts of the brain connected to homeostasis of the organism. Emotions are evoked prior to the more narrative experience of feelings. To tell the truth, I am still not entirely clear on the distinction, largely because he explains the difference through case studies of people who have suffered damage to different parts of the brain, losing me. Maybe I got it at the time, but looking through the book now, it?s not so clear. One interesting thing is that we can have social emotions, which means homeostasis is not just internal to the human organism. >> >> Anyway, the book is worth digging through. Hope that helps a little. Whew! >> >> Henry >> >> >>> On May 26, 2020, at 1:31 PM, Tom Richardson > wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi Henry >>> Thank you for your thoughtful, fact full reply. >>> >>> It would save me continuing to plough through Damasio's well-written but fairly lengthy book 'Looking for Spinoza', if you were to send me a brief personal summary of what he means intellectually for you - (or am I being lazy?) - since it is always illuminating to understand what our thinkers mean to/for our peers. I have not broached Baruch S's work for myself. >>> >>> Best wishes >>> Tom >>> >>> On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 17:09, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: >>> Hi Tom, >>> Thank you for your rich, well-thought-out response to my question. And thank you for recognizing that I wanted it to be generous. Perhaps a quibble is that you associate the first stage of Stalinist rule as capitalist, rather than industrial, as I understand it. I think that?s important. Stalin?s top-down planning had the same hall marks as Mao?s, Castro?s and the current North Korean leader. I appreciate your optimism that any system devised by humans can create human thriving that is not destructive of of humanity itself. We seem to have boxed ourselves into a corner by destroying our niche, the world. COVID-19 and climate change, IMHO, we are all, indvidually and collectively complicit. I hope that we can get beyond romanticism and cynicism in meeting our fate. I think that Vygotsky and Spinoza represent what can come of wrestling with open hearts and clear thinking with our condition. >>> Henry >>> >>> >>>> On May 26, 2020, at 3:09 AM, Tom Richardson > wrote: >>>> >>>> Good Morning (GMT+1) Henry >>>> >>>> I'm touched by your mail today. My life experience does not include such practical engagement as yours, with any of the major social disruptions / attempts at new organisation, of the C20. >>>> >>>> It seems dismissively facile to criticise amazing historic re-organisations of social life like the Cuban Revolution, but it is necessary. Otherwise the same mistakes will happen again and again. >>>> >>>> The political strand which I accept as most accurately analysing historical and current reality characterises the liberation movements (particularities, differences, I'm ignoring for sake of quick explanation) post 1900, as nationalist, and mostly state socialist/capitalist. IE they are top-down, state directed anti-imperialist/colonialist movements. The self-organisation and free association of the producers that is the essence of communist organisation is absent. Often there is some commitment to a Kautskyan / Stalinist "two stage theory", requiring full capitalist development to prepare the ground for the next step of proletarian rule - eg in the South African struggle. We can see where that has led so far. >>>> >>>> But the analysts I accept, posit that socialism in one country cannot be created nor sustained while the basis of total global social reproduction is the money based economy, taken forward by the capital-labour relationship of commodity production - the so-called 'free market' whose anarchy ensures an absence of any organised relationship to global human needs, since it is driven by the value-based circulation of commodities dominating all global production. >>>> >>>> The freedom is that of the individual / joint-stock company in the pursuit of surplus value. And, yes, Marx, does provide an analysis of "money" which indicates how a future system of production would/could not be based on the use of money and therefore wages. >>>> >>>> There is so much literature about this to be investigated, (much of it written by US authors, extraordinarily, given the Chicago School and the legacy of McCarthy). I started with Engels 'Socialism, Utopian and Scientific' which explained in a way that my pro-market, individualist history teacher could not, why the Anti-Corn Law League had 'won' and the Chartists had failed. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I am only recycling, from my own limited understanding, the sort of analysis that the original authors of the literature I value provide in overwhelming but convincing detail. >>>> >>>> While the way forward towards a future that communists see as essential if the planet is not to be destroyed, or at least human life on it, is not in prospect as far as any realist can foresee, at present, the reality of the Barbarism that Capital brings (together with the technology necessary for the possibility of real change), is clear every moment in our lives. >>>> >>>> Human resistance and creative answers to apparently insoluble problems, and the reality that the working class has nothing to gain that sustains real fulfilling human life from capital's continuation, sustain my knowledge that my commitment to moving beyond capitalism, is both essential and realistic. >>>> >>>> I trust that this attempted answer to your generous question makes sufficient sense . >>>> >>>> Best wishes >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 22:26, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: >>>> Hi Tom, >>>> What is it about ?free market economies? is the cause of wage slavery? Is there at least some jiggering of the market that could end ?destructive anarchy?? Do we do away with money? And I am serious here. I take it that capitalism is the problem, not the market, or money. I was in the doctoral program in economics at UC Berkeley during the late 60s. My concentrations were comparative economic systems and economic planning. I dropped out after only getting a masters degree in economics there, and went to Cuba to cut sugar cane with the Venceremos Brigade. I felt strongly Che?s call to make the New Man (though women were there too, and check out the film ?Lucia?) of that era, but I think that central planning (Castro?) of the Cuban economy had a destructive and anarchic side. Castro apologized for his mistakes during the year of 10 million tons of sugar cane production, but the damage was done. Cuba has been a shining light in some ways for me and others, not least the health care workers, the original Doctors Without Borders, that beautifully exemplify the new human. >>>> >>>> So, really, what do we replace markets and money with? Or is it the ?free? part that?s the rub. >>>> >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >>>>> On May 25, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Tom Richardson > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hello Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> "All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is:" >>>>> >>>>> Since I have suggested neither of the alternatives you state as the only way forward, it would surely invalidate your further argument. >>>>> >>>>> But I must admit that the idea of thirty thousand working class families and then some, organising to change the wage-slavery employment system that they are exploited by, would be a great idea. >>>>> Here's to that day, as the freely associated producers of our social life organise to end the destructive anarchy of our present free-market economies. >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> >>>>> Tom >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 19:58, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>>>> Hi Tom and others, >>>>> >>>>> I agree that Capitalism is bad, and that it causes wealth and poverty in extremes. Which then creates social injustices that would be much lessened with less economic inequality. >>>>> >>>>> I do not think that I ever said (did I?) to ignore the traditional power structures. I said that every day we negotiate the power structures. And when we decide it's not working we can create change. That possibility is always an option, but it demands diligence, discipline, and discovery. >>>>> >>>>> All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is: >>>>> 1. it's futile. Give up. The structures will always be against us. Settle in to your given hand of bad fortune. >>>>> 2. grab a gun and kill as many people sitting in seats of power (which means the chair of power remains to be replaced by someone else). >>>>> >>>>> Forgive me if I reject both those options. >>>>> >>>>> As I said, perhaps in another post, the liberal position of citing data and objecting to the existence of that data, isn't going to make power structures change. >>>>> >>>>> What would make change is for those 15K-30K families to organize and among themselves decide how and what they can do to make their lot better. >>>>> >>>>> It's called organizing. >>>>> >>>>> Civil disobedience works because it is civil. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >>>>> Sent: Monday, May 25, 2020 3:25 AM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>>> >>>>> [EXTERNAL] >>>>> Hi Annalisa >>>>> Good Morning - just a correction to figures about poverty in our town - I should have been more careful,; fortunately the figures from memory were an underestimate rather than an exaggeration: >>>>> Almost 30,000 children are living in poverty across Teesside - and half are from working families. >>>>> >>>>> And stark new statistics reveal that the picture is worst in central Middlesbrough - as hyper-local, official Government data reveals three quarters of all kids in one neighbourhood are living below the breadline. >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> >>>>> Tom >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> BoWen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 22:17, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>>>> Alas, hello again Tom (& VO's), >>>>> >>>>> While I accept your assessment of our differences in approaches and understandings, I do not see that it is obvious that there is no meeting point. >>>>> >>>>> For example, innovation exists in science and in art, in business it is entrepreneurship. I believe that there are good things that come from business entrepreneurship, and there are bad things too. We love that art and science are innovative, when they are, but there can be failings there too. >>>>> >>>>> The captains of industry who believe they are self-made men, and who believe that anyone who decides for oneself being on the assembly line of the manufacturing floor is only a dumb pawn in a larger game, would be in my estimation the worst that kind of human that entrepreneurship generates. Elon Musk is one example, perhaps. >>>>> >>>>> As much as I likely would not want Elon Musk over for dinner, I can admire that he has been able to steward the creation of an electric car in the midst of a sleepwalking auto industry that cannot envision automobiles without a gas-eating combustible engine. >>>>> >>>>> At the same time what he gives he takes away: I'm not sure that I can ever get on board a space rocket to inhabit Mars. I actually object to that project because as long as we haven't worked out how to feed everyone on this earthship, we should not be escaping it by polluting another planet, even if, as Carl Sagan told us, there are billions and billions of them out there. >>>>> >>>>> "They" in the form of (other they)'s do not have power unless we give them that power. That power is always up for debate every minute, every day, every year. >>>>> >>>>> Given that there are now 38 million unemployed in the US (I can't name the numbers elsewhere and I'm sorry about that), that's like the entire population of California being on the dole. It is a significant number, and it may be that many of those people start their own businesses, not because of education or desire, but of necessity. >>>>> >>>>> Many of the young and unemployed are educated. That could be a combustible cocktail, depending upon their self-awareness and outward worldview. >>>>> >>>>> One strange article in NYT described a scene designer who has been out of work since the health order shutdown, and hasn't received any unemployment yet because she filed in New Jersey, while her partner did because he filed in New York. Then she got an offer to work in a company who is making ... wait for it.... facemasks, so now she is toiling over a machine, sewing facemasks. >>>>> >>>>> I don't think I could live in that situation because of the stark irony, if that is a just word for that. I mourn the loss of her creativity, but I hope it is temporary. >>>>> >>>>> Now out of necessity, she's had to travel that path. So I can agree with you that because of the government order to shut down business, and because a company who hired her decided to make facemasks, because what other ingenious product would or could one manufacture right now? they have shaped her working life. Have they shaped her social life, though. I mean completely? She still has her contacts on her iPhone, she likely returns home to her partner to cook dinner and search for more work. Her desires and dreams are likely impacted, but has she completely given up? Should she? >>>>> >>>>> I am not pro-revolution, only because they create rivers of blood in streets, etc. I'm more of the mind that incremental choices can together create a tipping point of social change. >>>>> >>>>> For example, consider the tiny house movement. Or how young people will share resources, or reevaluate buying things, or what they eat. >>>>> >>>>> People make the best lemonade only with the best lemons. >>>>> >>>>> There is going to have to be a reckoning of having so many unemployed people. It can't be ignored. To just pretend that everyone will be happy with a lower wage job (lower than when the pandemic hit), is only going to drive people to desperate measures. The country will want to put people to work and this could be an opportunity for collective change, for creating meaningful jobs. >>>>> >>>>> Because who wants a civil war. >>>>> >>>>> So there will have to be some sort of appeasement for the social reality that people must have their basic needs met. The temporary stimulus is a lifeline, but the real economic difficulties will start when people start to return to work, and there are less jobs with the result being there is less money circulating in the economy overall. With interest rates so low, and pumping more money into the economy is only going to raise the prices of things, possibly wages, but not the buying power. >>>>> >>>>> People will cut bait from the lives they once had, and simplify. Moving to less crowded cities and towns, returning to live with parents. Perhaps creating cooperatives. One area for discovery with so much time on one's hands is handcrafting. I think there will be a blooming of new businesses that incorporate *real* labor. This may also usher in more vocational training programs. >>>>> >>>>> One article I read today discussed the eating of meat, and how it is a destructive social practice including its impact on climate change. Largely that industry depends upon of automation, and now with slaughterhouses being virus hotspots, do you want to trust that the meat you buy is not tainted with COVID? Or that you are forcing a worker into an unsafe work environment and catch the virus? >>>>> >>>>> If people were decide to stop eating meat, or reduce even its consumption because it's too expensive, and if the government stops giving subsidies to these agro-corporations, then these polluting companies will fail. That would be great news. >>>>> >>>>> Then the writer pointed out that if we returned to diets higher in plant-based food, that would increase demand for real farms, real entrepreneurship and generate jobs, as it takes more people to grow vegetables, than it does to raise pigs or chickens. We would also become healthier as a population. There is already a network of farmer's markets for local produce, so it may mean a growth in that area. >>>>> >>>>> I suppose what I'm trying to say is I do not think it is so cut and dried that we are subject to the worst forever. I think with so much time on our hands people are free to organize and decide to help one another in mutual aid. We do not have to rely on traditional power structures, and we do not have to resort to bloody revolutions. >>>>> >>>>> Depending upon what you are looking for in life, there is a third way arising. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 4:24 AM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>>> >>>>> [EXTERNAL] >>>>> Hello once more Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> Our difference of approach to and understanding of the modern state and the production of social life obviously admits of no meeting point as far as I read your astonishingly wide-ranging and impassioned response. >>>>> >>>>> Without the simplicity of my reply intending to signal a facile sarcasm, I must bluntly state that I begin from the acceptance that nefarious or not, 'They', in the sense of government and corporations, do have the power to control and shape the organisation of social life. We can, if enough socio-political pressure can be brought to bear through social movements, rebellions, revolts, shift certain aspects of that fashioning of our lives. >>>>> >>>>> But at present, the relationship of wage slavery imposed by Capital ,and the society shaped by that relationship, are dominant throughout the life of our planet. >>>>> >>>>> Sad at such an impasse, since we both wish the best for humanity >>>>> >>>>> Tom >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 21:46, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>>>> Hi Tom, and VO's of XMCA >>>>> >>>>> Concerning your questions about our new normal now that COVID19 is with us and here to stay, I think your guess is as good as anyone's. I am not sure if we as humans have ever been burdened with such an event as this, and at the same time are able to watch the unfolding events and respond (or not respond if you are a stable genius) quickly from the feedback of data, news, anecdotes, and other forms of perception of how the virus is impacting us. >>>>> >>>>> What is worth remembering as well, is that epidemiologists have been warning us for decades that a pandemic was a clear an present danger to the way we live and negotiate the modern world. We see in sensurround how right they were. >>>>> >>>>> As I consider your question, I have to think that people mow might be sorted into two classes, well at least two classes: >>>>> >>>>> People who seem to think the virus is just another flu and once we find a vaccine, all will return to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday or pre-pandemic time you mark your calendar as before the pandemic hit, which of course depends upon where on the earth you are located). >>>>> People who seem to think the virus has changed us and there will never be going back to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday...) >>>>> I suspect the Americans of the neo-conservative persuasion who have been motivated to protest health order social distancing believe that not only this is a conspiracy to control fredom-loving people, but that we should return to Christmas 2019 as soon as possible, they are of Cohort 1. >>>>> >>>>> I think Cohort 2 are going to be people who take in the facts and the data and are actively attempting to sort out where do we go from here. I feel confident you are in Cohort 2, as ar most people on this list. >>>>> >>>>> Now, as Carol M has pointed out, in a lot of ways our discussion about online learning is a first world concern, for those who have an internet connection that is ubiquitous not only at home, but at school, work, on the bus, on planes, in cafes, and other public gathering spaces, like city halls, or town squares. That's another reason why it's hard to take Klein seriously, in terms of *tone*. >>>>> >>>>> I recall reading something from George Lakoff when he indicates that there is a liberal stance that seems to believe that if one objects loudly enough with "sky is falling" rhetoric and then feed out various data, that using this strategy the audience will become motivated to protest in the streets, write letters to congress, run for office, or whatever civil action must be done, and with alacrity. It doesn't work. I do not think being against anything ever "works." I think only being for something works. >>>>> >>>>> Let's look at Klein's article as an example. If she were to be rhetorically successful she would outline the problem she identifies (Mr. Schmidt goes to Washington), but instead of all that is wrong, talk about what can be right. Not to say she should agree with Mr. Schmidt and his ways. >>>>> >>>>> I feel her article could be a lot heavier on what works with education and how to enhance that further. She does mention how money should b used more for school nurses, smaller classrooms, etc. This is where she could have expanded beautifully into a viable solution to spark everyone's imaginations. But she didn't do that. She is more motivated it seems to mark Mr. Schmidt and his technological minions to masterminding a New World Order that will steal our souls and tether us to the Matrix from now until the end of time. >>>>> >>>>> I also feel she would have been more conducive to discourse by writing an open letter to Cuomo and Schmidt, and to invite a response. This is also leading by example to cultivate democratic processes that are near and dear to all of us. Instead she "otherfies" them, and this is also not useful. And I am not saying that as a stance to defend Mr. Schmidt or Gov Cuomo, in any way. >>>>> >>>>> So back to your question, I do not think that there is any way we will be extricated from this reality of COVID 19. We will have to pick our stones across the river carefully so that none of us slips and is carried down the rapids. I feel it is more useful to say we are a family of one kind, and all of us have to stay together to make it across. And that all of us deserves a life jacket as a measure of survival because not all of us will get to the other side without getting wet, or falling in. >>>>> >>>>> The tension between CEOs and their contempt for the slow-food of democracy is well known. If only they could persuade all of us to eat fast food, then they could take over the world as the next McDonalds, in terms of technological vision, whatever a McDonalds would look like on a screen, as an app, whathaveyou. >>>>> >>>>> Unfortunately what seems to elude folks who have not worked in tech, or those who see tech as just another new Ford in the garage, is that technology is always in flux. There is always development of new hardware that needs new software written to use it, so there is a double-quicksand of events upon which technology is founded (and funded) upon. That's what Moore's Law is about. >>>>> >>>>> Technology in order to "be itself" must always move fleetingly, like the shark must to breathe. Technology will never be able to last the halls of government. For that reason, any rendition of technology in government (and school systems for that matter) will be like bad combovers that are meant to convince us that we are now more attractive and appealing (not meaning to offend those who live by their combovers...) >>>>> >>>>> Where I feel technology could best serve us is to help create grassroots democracy tools, to support what we know is possible and could even threaten the basis for representative democracy and bring it closer to a straight agora democracy. >>>>> >>>>> Some might call this anarchy, and I could argue along the lines of David Graeber that anarchy is a more pure form of democracy practiced in all "primitive" or "ancient" cultures, it's not a perfect fit, and I intend to make that reference loosely. My point is to say there should be what David K calls involution of what government is, to what government was, and to supplant that, or rather what causes those parts to be pushed to the margins is to imagine a government where there is mor connection to agora-like venues where one person speaking in a Zoom-like frame is of equal stature of any other person speaking in the frame. One can sort of imagine this with the Zoom-empowered senate hearings which I watched for a while on the NYT front page. It was really strange to me. I suppose the danger is that we get to hear Sally Mc? from Arizona use her time to blame the Chinese for the virus, etc, for more time that we would like. But that's democracy. >>>>> >>>>> So one fallout could be that grade-school kids and their resulting perezhivanie from Zoom-based classrooms, will adopt the tool for political discussions as adults. Might that be a good thing? >>>>> >>>>> Maybe. >>>>> >>>>> At the same time, do you remember a book that came out in the mid90s called "Silicon Snake Oil"? This is yet another phenomenon of technology, that people oozing charisma will claw their way to the microphone and pitch an idea about the next vaporware, who will then make unsubstantiated promises and claims directed to feed our fantasies and dreams, and who will then abscond with all the money, only to request not to look at the man behind the green curtain, or if pulled by the ear into a senate hearing will say "I thought it was a good idea at the time." etc. >>>>> >>>>> I think that is the view of Klein about all technology, and there are merits in that, but there are also other ways to think about it. >>>>> >>>>> This article about Marc Benioff in Wired recently discusses about the social entrepreneurship of his wealth:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.wired.com/story/gospel-of-wealth-according-to-marc-benioff/__;!!Mih3wA!RteIaOYCpYGHNy2fzjpsCMNQxRkB-6a8WzSM3Vge3IX58gWTmGdKOO4jopO70OP0xX3MJA$ >>>>> Who by they way now owns the magazine Time, the way Jeff Bezos bought the WaPo, and Lauren Jobs bought The Altlantic, and Pierre Omidyar funded The Intercept. >>>>> >>>>> I do invite, as much as you can stomach, anyway, for any educators or other members of our vibrant list to make regular reading of Wired Magazine, which is a far more interesting read on technology than something like Fast Company. I encourage this reading, if only to know the enemy, as it were. Wired articles are far more nuanced and sophisticated than when the magazine first got off the ground in the early 90s. I find reading it helps to connect some dots for those who do not consume technology culture all the time. Just pick and choose what you are curious about. >>>>> >>>>> We must become familiar with the vernacular of technology if we want a hand in the game of how it plays in education, our stomping grounds. This will require effort on our part. That is not to say we must adopt all the shiny new toys. But we can be like a Consumer Report for education, and evaluate and measure the good the bad and the ugly of technology and its use in the edu sphere. >>>>> >>>>> We cannot sit on our laurels and wait for someone else to decide for us how technology will be deployed. That stance is what the mythology of inevitable technology rests and self-perpetuates. >>>>> >>>>> We must be more tech literate, and we must be the first to coin words and how they manifest in edu venues. What works what doesn't. I don't see any other way to fight back and to keep control of the educational narrative, where of course we want to hardwire zopeds, manifest and lead critical and nourishing perezhivanie, and model by example sterling mediated learning experiences for students and teachers. >>>>> >>>>> What other projects can there be? >>>>> >>>>> For me, this is "fighting back" because it makes the sort of shark-like entrepreneur recede for a time (as they will always be looking for a way into edu's tax coffers), because we are successful getting education right. >>>>> >>>>> I do not accept that entreprenuership is what took the sanctity from teaching and learning. But that's an argument to be made. I feel it is only one side of the argument. >>>>> >>>>> Once I had an male acquaintance tell me that one reason women are in inferior roles is because they let this happen to them. As you might imagine, I had a real hard time with that argument and I had to clench my jaw to now spew various vitriol upon him. But after I thought about it, in a narrow sense he is not wrong because not it is true that enough women in history identified the value to struggle for rights even if they would not see equality in their own lifetimes. There are many explanations for why that did not happen, that are not facile to depict. But then I also had to think of how much women's struggles have succeeded because they did decide to not let this happen to them anymore. But now women are learning in the US, anyway, that nothing fought for is a permanent fixture, and so we must become resigned to the perpetual struggle for equality, as all marginalized people must. >>>>> >>>>> So now I direct this to our context of education in the venue of online learning. This is not an easy question, and it is not intended to trivialize the work and efforts of many on this list, but it is instead a question of inner reflection, or a taking of inventory of one's own life: >>>>> >>>>> How much has each of you done to take measure and fight for meaningful education in the classroom? >>>>> >>>>> Could you have done more? Can you do more? >>>>> >>>>> Then the same for asking yourself how have you integrated technology appropriately into your learning methods and general perezhivanie. >>>>> >>>>> I hope this might provide some further food for thought concerning preservation on the sanctity of learning and instruction in the classroom. >>>>> >>>>> So all this is to reply to you Tom, that in short, the nefarious They can only take control if we let them. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> ps please excuse all typos, which are all made on my own. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 11:26 AM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>>> >>>>> [EXTERNAL] >>>>> Hi Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for providing the details of your deep and committed background in distance / online learning. Mine is obviously shallow, which must have triggered you and 'Robsub' somewhat. >>>>> >>>>> But my questioning is in the newer context of the Covid19 threats to global society and the solutions being sought to extricate us from them. >>>>> >>>>> Governor Cuomo's conversation with Schmidt to examine solutions to the problems of present coping and future emergence from the pandemic is understandable. Two persons with power and a need to act, discuss what technology (in its widest hard- and software aspects) has to offer. >>>>> >>>>> In a democracy we can assess the solutions they propose and shape them to what we know to be as near to optimal for our society as possible. Your assertion of the efficacy of our agency which Klein seems to deny, >>>>> with her politico-economic caveats. >>>>> >>>>> Schmidt has an evangelism for the potential of technology, but expressed with such restraint - he's no zealot. He also, in the video of the ECNY conversation with Marie-Josee Kravis, sees the lack of 'simplicity' in the three-tier democratic system of the US. He is a CEO with an organisation geared to problem-analysis, solution choices, and operational capability which can be put into action without delaying debate. He expressed no hostility to 'democracy' but as he said, it does not work simply. >>>>> >>>>> Klein reminds us to be wary if not alarmed, not because she is despairing (I believe), but because that direct entrepreneurial drive has profit making as its unavoidable aim. Whatever Schmidt's humanistic feelings, if profit doesn't result from his and his companies actions, they will not survive. That competitive drive is also present in his aspirations for international dominance (see his remarks on the rise of China's technology). >>>>> >>>>> So far, the sort of distance / online learning you have worked on, has been nested in the context of family and (normal) school life. That normality had implicit in it human values, customs and structures, whatever differences of class, race, gender and culture were present. The melding of state and enterprise in a newly-developing novel (5G?)high-tech 'solution' to mediating education presents a situation which need to be examined I believe. And my query, in that 'Kleinian' context was looking for answers from those, like yourself, with wide experience of previous technological 'answers' and their implications for the results within the learner. >>>>> >>>>> I affirm, along with you, the irrepressible resistance and sheer cantankerousness we humans bring to unjust situations. But such fighting back will often be unsuccessful in its aims, when the need to reduce labour time with new technology is driving events - Luddism and machine looms? Our human drive to change and adapt, our use of our agency to create or alter our lives must not be suppressed. But what Klein is reminding us of is just how tilted is the balance of power - the power of the state and behind it, the drive from the vast corporate world, for profit. Our agency is so often undone by the arbitrary intervention of those forces. >>>>> >>>>> Those are the forces which have destroyed what you name the 'sanctity' of teaching and learning. I would name it the basic need for those goals, but we share it. With the need to re-invigorate just such a precious resource, we will continue to fight like hell. Despite their mere humanness, corporations and states at present have greater knowledge and power than 'mere' citizens. My intervention in xmca discussion was really to say "They're looking to take even more control of daily life. >>>>> Within academia, you can analyse how they are making such changes happen and continue to alert the rest of us, if you fear the consequences of their changes." >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes >>>>> Tom >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 22:29, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>>>> Hi Tom, >>>>> >>>>> May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? >>>>> >>>>> Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed by SL's prospects. >>>>> >>>>> In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. >>>>> >>>>> Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. >>>>> >>>>> What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. >>>>> >>>>> I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of associations of place with learning. >>>>> >>>>> In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and constrain learning to books. >>>>> >>>>> We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. >>>>> >>>>> I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of learning. >>>>> >>>>> I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged learning venues . Not with grade school. >>>>> >>>>> I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. >>>>> >>>>> I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. >>>>> >>>>> What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!RteIaOYCpYGHNy2fzjpsCMNQxRkB-6a8WzSM3Vge3IX58gWTmGdKOO4jopO70OO3qt79hA$ >>>>> >>>>> It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. >>>>> >>>>> It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. >>>>> >>>>> Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. >>>>> >>>>> If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be integrated with existing models. >>>>> >>>>> If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. >>>>> >>>>> One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and surveillance is a constructive combination. >>>>> >>>>> There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. >>>>> >>>>> This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and introspection, I will never accept that reality. >>>>> >>>>> To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers and pins." >>>>> >>>>> I just do not believe this narrative. >>>>> >>>>> We cannot give up. >>>>> >>>>> Is there a fight ahead? Yes. >>>>> >>>>> Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most definitely, yes. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>>> >>>>> [EXTERNAL] >>>>> >>>>> Hello Annalisa >>>>> Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. >>>>> What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such learning takes place?'. >>>>> What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes for the perezhivanie of the learner, which shapes her social being and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? >>>>> Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. >>>>> I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards >>>>> Tom >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>>>> Hello Tom, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for posting the link. >>>>> >>>>> I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended into our lives. >>>>> >>>>> I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. >>>>> >>>>> At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. >>>>> >>>>> Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). >>>>> >>>>> I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. >>>>> >>>>> Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. >>>>> >>>>> She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control the world. >>>>> >>>>> Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to deliberate the way forward. >>>>> >>>>> As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency to decide how to use our tools. >>>>> >>>>> Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. >>>>> >>>>> So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply does not hold water for me. >>>>> >>>>> I hope this might be a little encouraging. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>>> >>>>> [EXTERNAL] >>>>> Hello Tom Richardson >>>>> This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat Project" that has just finished its >>>>> planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human development, and theories of "Development >>>>> in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. >>>>> Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. >>>>> The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. >>>>> In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced >>>>> a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most members of this discussion over the years, >>>>> is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). >>>>> >>>>> We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. >>>>> >>>>> Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about for 100 years. >>>>> Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing working models of effective practices that do NOT >>>>> assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for asking. >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson > wrote: >>>>> Greetings Xmca-ers >>>>> I would like to raise a question. >>>>> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening recently: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks after that article appeared, he described the ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the country had been forced to cobble together during this public health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. >>>>> >>>>> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " >>>>> >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!RteIaOYCpYGHNy2fzjpsCMNQxRkB-6a8WzSM3Vge3IX58gWTmGdKOO4jopO70ONQ2dUvEA$ >>>>> >>>>> Just asking >>>>> Tom Richardson >>>>> Middlesbrough UK >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >>>>> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>> For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu . >>>>> For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . >>>>> For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200527/471c5255/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed May 27 13:21:30 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 14:21:30 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: < CY4PR0701MB37770A7BD4B3613E52533B4BC1B60@CY4PR0701MB3777.namprd07.prod.outl ook.com> <78D4E5A7-6661-4F59-A41F-A1 FD92995FD6@gmail.com> <29749880-98FE-47D7-84E1-841BB6B9B6C5@gmail.com> <32E7CCCD-69BC-4AB8 -AC9A-E1A8F581835C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Rein, You say, > "... that certain neural correlates exist of particular elements of what goes on in our consciousness. This is indeed a widespread belief, but as far as I know it has not actually been sustained by neuroscience.? And, > "But there is neither an overall coordinating centre in the brain, to which ?maps? or ?representations? would be presented for decision-making, nor are separate subsystems of the brain able to produce mental phenomena without input from other systems (which are not even limited to the brain). ? This, I think, is relevant to Chomsky?s notion of a language organ, making him a ?localizationalist?. I hope I didn?t totally coin the term, but I remember a fellow doctoral student at Univ of New Mexico, doing a dissertation disconfirming Chomsky. And, if there are social emotions, consciousness doesn?t stop at the skin, right? Henry > On May 27, 2020, at 12:08 PM, Rein Raud wrote: > > Hi, > > I have to say I?ve found Damasio rather frustrating. Like so many others he seems to assume that it is a proven fact that brain processes cause mental phenomena while remaining unaffected by them, and, moreover, that certain neural correlates exist of particular elements of what goes on in our consciousness. This is indeed a widespread belief, but as far as I know it has not actually been sustained by neuroscience. Of course, the brain is related to conscious activity, and different areas of the brain are involved in different types of activities. But there is neither an overall coordinating centre in the brain, to which ?maps? or ?representations? would be presented for decision-making, nor are separate subsystems of the brain able to produce mental phenomena without input from other systems (which are not even limited to the brain). > Also, it seems to me Damasio assumes that all people, regardless of culture, have the same emotional machinery at work in their brains. This, as I understand, has been proved false, as exposure to different ways of culturally conceptualizing emotions, ?emotional vocabularies?, so to speak, have a significant role in how people process their emotional responses to the environment. Tim Lewens has a chapter on this in ?Cultural Evolution?. (I am not on the side of the ?steel and concrete? realists here, from where I stand, it is Damasio who is closer to their camp.) > > All the best to everyone, > > Rein > >> On 27 May 2020, at 19:48, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >> >> Hi Tom, Henry, and VO's, >> >> I'm glad that Henry was able to be of some comfort to your concerns Tom. >> >> I might also encourage you to read "Betraying Spinoza: The Renegade Jew Who Gave Us Modernity" (2009) by Rebecca Goldstein, as well as "Descartes' Error: Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain" (1995) by Antonio Damasio. >> >> Betraying Spinoza is one of my favorite books ever. >> >> The reason that I find Damasio so important in brain research is that he has been able to ascertain that we require our feelings first in order to reason. It's not that other way around, as much as steel and concrete rationalists want to believe. Damasio was able to ascertain this based upon a patient of his who suffered a brain injury to the part of the brain that we understand necessary for feelings. >> >> To direct a comment to Henry, I think the difference between emotion and feeling as you indicate does have distinctions, and thinking out loud, it is that emotions have something to do with the limbic system, while feelings arise from executive functions (hence as you say the narratives we have about ourselves). >> >> Another great historical account about Spinoza is "The Courtier and the Heretic" (2007) by Matthew Stewart, which focuses upon the lives of Leibniz and Spinoza and an account of their only meeting. It's a great page turner. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of HENRY SHONERD > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 10:25 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >> >> [EXTERNAL] >> Glad it was helpful, Tom:) >> >>> On May 27, 2020, at 3:24 AM, Tom Richardson > wrote: >>> >>> Good Morning Henry >>> Your confusions and eventual clarity explain and help a great deal, mirroring my own as I read Damasio's account. I shall dig further with gratitude to you. >>> Best >>> Tom >>> >>> BoWen >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 22:29, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: >>> Hi Tom, >>> No problem enabling your laziness with my shallow reading of Spinzoa. I confess that I have read nothing directly from Spinoza, but have read about his philosphy and about his life. It?s been a while since I read Looking for Spinoza: Joy Sorrow and the Feeling Brain. I am looking at the book now and am amazed with how much highlighting there is and how little of it I remember in detail. What got me into it was the distinction between emotions and feelings. Damasio is a neuroscientist, and the book are full of the neural correlates of affective states, being the ?easy? problem of consciousness. The ?hard? problem of explaining the reason any arrangements at all of matter can possibly result in consciousness is not explained. What got me into it was the distinction between emotions and feelings. Damasio associates emotions (fear, anger, surprise, disgust, sadness and happiness) with primal parts of the brain connected to homeostasis of the organism. Emotions are evoked prior to the more narrative experience of feelings. To tell the truth, I am still not entirely clear on the distinction, largely because he explains the difference through case studies of people who have suffered damage to different parts of the brain, losing me. Maybe I got it at the time, but looking through the book now, it?s not so clear. One interesting thing is that we can have social emotions, which means homeostasis is not just internal to the human organism. >>> >>> Anyway, the book is worth digging through. Hope that helps a little. Whew! >>> >>> Henry >>> >>> >>>> On May 26, 2020, at 1:31 PM, Tom Richardson > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Henry >>>> Thank you for your thoughtful, fact full reply. >>>> >>>> It would save me continuing to plough through Damasio's well-written but fairly lengthy book 'Looking for Spinoza', if you were to send me a brief personal summary of what he means intellectually for you - (or am I being lazy?) - since it is always illuminating to understand what our thinkers mean to/for our peers. I have not broached Baruch S's work for myself. >>>> >>>> Best wishes >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 17:09, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: >>>> Hi Tom, >>>> Thank you for your rich, well-thought-out response to my question. And thank you for recognizing that I wanted it to be generous. Perhaps a quibble is that you associate the first stage of Stalinist rule as capitalist, rather than industrial, as I understand it. I think that?s important. Stalin?s top-down planning had the same hall marks as Mao?s, Castro?s and the current North Korean leader. I appreciate your optimism that any system devised by humans can create human thriving that is not destructive of of humanity itself. We seem to have boxed ourselves into a corner by destroying our niche, the world. COVID-19 and climate change, IMHO, we are all, indvidually and collectively complicit. I hope that we can get beyond romanticism and cynicism in meeting our fate. I think that Vygotsky and Spinoza represent what can come of wrestling with open hearts and clear thinking with our condition. >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >>>>> On May 26, 2020, at 3:09 AM, Tom Richardson > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Good Morning (GMT+1) Henry >>>>> >>>>> I'm touched by your mail today. My life experience does not include such practical engagement as yours, with any of the major social disruptions / attempts at new organisation, of the C20. >>>>> >>>>> It seems dismissively facile to criticise amazing historic re-organisations of social life like the Cuban Revolution, but it is necessary. Otherwise the same mistakes will happen again and again. >>>>> >>>>> The political strand which I accept as most accurately analysing historical and current reality characterises the liberation movements (particularities, differences, I'm ignoring for sake of quick explanation) post 1900, as nationalist, and mostly state socialist/capitalist. IE they are top-down, state directed anti-imperialist/colonialist movements. The self-organisation and free association of the producers that is the essence of communist organisation is absent. Often there is some commitment to a Kautskyan / Stalinist "two stage theory", requiring full capitalist development to prepare the ground for the next step of proletarian rule - eg in the South African struggle. We can see where that has led so far. >>>>> >>>>> But the analysts I accept, posit that socialism in one country cannot be created nor sustained while the basis of total global social reproduction is the money based economy, taken forward by the capital-labour relationship of commodity production - the so-called 'free market' whose anarchy ensures an absence of any organised relationship to global human needs, since it is driven by the value-based circulation of commodities dominating all global production. >>>>> >>>>> The freedom is that of the individual / joint-stock company in the pursuit of surplus value. And, yes, Marx, does provide an analysis of "money" which indicates how a future system of production would/could not be based on the use of money and therefore wages. >>>>> >>>>> There is so much literature about this to be investigated, (much of it written by US authors, extraordinarily, given the Chicago School and the legacy of McCarthy). I started with Engels 'Socialism, Utopian and Scientific' which explained in a way that my pro-market, individualist history teacher could not, why the Anti-Corn Law League had 'won' and the Chartists had failed. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, I am only recycling, from my own limited understanding, the sort of analysis that the original authors of the literature I value provide in overwhelming but convincing detail. >>>>> >>>>> While the way forward towards a future that communists see as essential if the planet is not to be destroyed, or at least human life on it, is not in prospect as far as any realist can foresee, at present, the reality of the Barbarism that Capital brings (together with the technology necessary for the possibility of real change), is clear every moment in our lives. >>>>> >>>>> Human resistance and creative answers to apparently insoluble problems, and the reality that the working class has nothing to gain that sustains real fulfilling human life from capital's continuation, sustain my knowledge that my commitment to moving beyond capitalism, is both essential and realistic. >>>>> >>>>> I trust that this attempted answer to your generous question makes sufficient sense . >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes >>>>> >>>>> Tom >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 22:26, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: >>>>> Hi Tom, >>>>> What is it about ?free market economies? is the cause of wage slavery? Is there at least some jiggering of the market that could end ?destructive anarchy?? Do we do away with money? And I am serious here. I take it that capitalism is the problem, not the market, or money. I was in the doctoral program in economics at UC Berkeley during the late 60s. My concentrations were comparative economic systems and economic planning. I dropped out after only getting a masters degree in economics there, and went to Cuba to cut sugar cane with the Venceremos Brigade. I felt strongly Che?s call to make the New Man (though women were there too, and check out the film ?Lucia?) of that era, but I think that central planning (Castro?) of the Cuban economy had a destructive and anarchic side. Castro apologized for his mistakes during the year of 10 million tons of sugar cane production, but the damage was done. Cuba has been a shining light in some ways for me and others, not least the health care workers, the original Doctors Without Borders, that beautifully exemplify the new human. >>>>> >>>>> So, really, what do we replace markets and money with? Or is it the ?free? part that?s the rub. >>>>> >>>>> Henry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On May 25, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Tom Richardson > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello Annalisa >>>>>> >>>>>> "All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is:" >>>>>> >>>>>> Since I have suggested neither of the alternatives you state as the only way forward, it would surely invalidate your further argument. >>>>>> >>>>>> But I must admit that the idea of thirty thousand working class families and then some, organising to change the wage-slavery employment system that they are exploited by, would be a great idea. >>>>>> Here's to that day, as the freely associated producers of our social life organise to end the destructive anarchy of our present free-market economies. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> >>>>>> Tom >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 19:58, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>>>>> Hi Tom and others, >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree that Capitalism is bad, and that it causes wealth and poverty in extremes. Which then creates social injustices that would be much lessened with less economic inequality. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do not think that I ever said (did I?) to ignore the traditional power structures. I said that every day we negotiate the power structures. And when we decide it's not working we can create change. That possibility is always an option, but it demands diligence, discipline, and discovery. >>>>>> >>>>>> All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is: >>>>>> 1. it's futile. Give up. The structures will always be against us. Settle in to your given hand of bad fortune. >>>>>> 2. grab a gun and kill as many people sitting in seats of power (which means the chair of power remains to be replaced by someone else). >>>>>> >>>>>> Forgive me if I reject both those options. >>>>>> >>>>>> As I said, perhaps in another post, the liberal position of citing data and objecting to the existence of that data, isn't going to make power structures change. >>>>>> >>>>>> What would make change is for those 15K-30K families to organize and among themselves decide how and what they can do to make their lot better. >>>>>> >>>>>> It's called organizing. >>>>>> >>>>>> Civil disobedience works because it is civil. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Annalisa >>>>>> >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 25, 2020 3:25 AM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>>>> >>>>>> [EXTERNAL] >>>>>> Hi Annalisa >>>>>> Good Morning - just a correction to figures about poverty in our town - I should have been more careful,; fortunately the figures from memory were an underestimate rather than an exaggeration: >>>>>> Almost 30,000 children are living in poverty across Teesside - and half are from working families. >>>>>> >>>>>> And stark new statistics reveal that the picture is worst in central Middlesbrough - as hyper-local, official Government data reveals three quarters of all kids in one neighbourhood are living below the breadline. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> >>>>>> Tom >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> BoWen >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 22:17, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>>>>> Alas, hello again Tom (& VO's), >>>>>> >>>>>> While I accept your assessment of our differences in approaches and understandings, I do not see that it is obvious that there is no meeting point. >>>>>> >>>>>> For example, innovation exists in science and in art, in business it is entrepreneurship. I believe that there are good things that come from business entrepreneurship, and there are bad things too. We love that art and science are innovative, when they are, but there can be failings there too. >>>>>> >>>>>> The captains of industry who believe they are self-made men, and who believe that anyone who decides for oneself being on the assembly line of the manufacturing floor is only a dumb pawn in a larger game, would be in my estimation the worst that kind of human that entrepreneurship generates. Elon Musk is one example, perhaps. >>>>>> >>>>>> As much as I likely would not want Elon Musk over for dinner, I can admire that he has been able to steward the creation of an electric car in the midst of a sleepwalking auto industry that cannot envision automobiles without a gas-eating combustible engine. >>>>>> >>>>>> At the same time what he gives he takes away: I'm not sure that I can ever get on board a space rocket to inhabit Mars. I actually object to that project because as long as we haven't worked out how to feed everyone on this earthship, we should not be escaping it by polluting another planet, even if, as Carl Sagan told us, there are billions and billions of them out there. >>>>>> >>>>>> "They" in the form of (other they)'s do not have power unless we give them that power. That power is always up for debate every minute, every day, every year. >>>>>> >>>>>> Given that there are now 38 million unemployed in the US (I can't name the numbers elsewhere and I'm sorry about that), that's like the entire population of California being on the dole. It is a significant number, and it may be that many of those people start their own businesses, not because of education or desire, but of necessity. >>>>>> >>>>>> Many of the young and unemployed are educated. That could be a combustible cocktail, depending upon their self-awareness and outward worldview. >>>>>> >>>>>> One strange article in NYT described a scene designer who has been out of work since the health order shutdown, and hasn't received any unemployment yet because she filed in New Jersey, while her partner did because he filed in New York. Then she got an offer to work in a company who is making ... wait for it.... facemasks, so now she is toiling over a machine, sewing facemasks. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't think I could live in that situation because of the stark irony, if that is a just word for that. I mourn the loss of her creativity, but I hope it is temporary. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now out of necessity, she's had to travel that path. So I can agree with you that because of the government order to shut down business, and because a company who hired her decided to make facemasks, because what other ingenious product would or could one manufacture right now? they have shaped her working life. Have they shaped her social life, though. I mean completely? She still has her contacts on her iPhone, she likely returns home to her partner to cook dinner and search for more work. Her desires and dreams are likely impacted, but has she completely given up? Should she? >>>>>> >>>>>> I am not pro-revolution, only because they create rivers of blood in streets, etc. I'm more of the mind that incremental choices can together create a tipping point of social change. >>>>>> >>>>>> For example, consider the tiny house movement. Or how young people will share resources, or reevaluate buying things, or what they eat. >>>>>> >>>>>> People make the best lemonade only with the best lemons. >>>>>> >>>>>> There is going to have to be a reckoning of having so many unemployed people. It can't be ignored. To just pretend that everyone will be happy with a lower wage job (lower than when the pandemic hit), is only going to drive people to desperate measures. The country will want to put people to work and this could be an opportunity for collective change, for creating meaningful jobs. >>>>>> >>>>>> Because who wants a civil war. >>>>>> >>>>>> So there will have to be some sort of appeasement for the social reality that people must have their basic needs met. The temporary stimulus is a lifeline, but the real economic difficulties will start when people start to return to work, and there are less jobs with the result being there is less money circulating in the economy overall. With interest rates so low, and pumping more money into the economy is only going to raise the prices of things, possibly wages, but not the buying power. >>>>>> >>>>>> People will cut bait from the lives they once had, and simplify. Moving to less crowded cities and towns, returning to live with parents. Perhaps creating cooperatives. One area for discovery with so much time on one's hands is handcrafting. I think there will be a blooming of new businesses that incorporate *real* labor. This may also usher in more vocational training programs. >>>>>> >>>>>> One article I read today discussed the eating of meat, and how it is a destructive social practice including its impact on climate change. Largely that industry depends upon of automation, and now with slaughterhouses being virus hotspots, do you want to trust that the meat you buy is not tainted with COVID? Or that you are forcing a worker into an unsafe work environment and catch the virus? >>>>>> >>>>>> If people were decide to stop eating meat, or reduce even its consumption because it's too expensive, and if the government stops giving subsidies to these agro-corporations, then these polluting companies will fail. That would be great news. >>>>>> >>>>>> Then the writer pointed out that if we returned to diets higher in plant-based food, that would increase demand for real farms, real entrepreneurship and generate jobs, as it takes more people to grow vegetables, than it does to raise pigs or chickens. We would also become healthier as a population. There is already a network of farmer's markets for local produce, so it may mean a growth in that area. >>>>>> >>>>>> I suppose what I'm trying to say is I do not think it is so cut and dried that we are subject to the worst forever. I think with so much time on our hands people are free to organize and decide to help one another in mutual aid. We do not have to rely on traditional power structures, and we do not have to resort to bloody revolutions. >>>>>> >>>>>> Depending upon what you are looking for in life, there is a third way arising. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Annalisa >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 4:24 AM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>>>> >>>>>> [EXTERNAL] >>>>>> Hello once more Annalisa >>>>>> >>>>>> Our difference of approach to and understanding of the modern state and the production of social life obviously admits of no meeting point as far as I read your astonishingly wide-ranging and impassioned response. >>>>>> >>>>>> Without the simplicity of my reply intending to signal a facile sarcasm, I must bluntly state that I begin from the acceptance that nefarious or not, 'They', in the sense of government and corporations, do have the power to control and shape the organisation of social life. We can, if enough socio-political pressure can be brought to bear through social movements, rebellions, revolts, shift certain aspects of that fashioning of our lives. >>>>>> >>>>>> But at present, the relationship of wage slavery imposed by Capital ,and the society shaped by that relationship, are dominant throughout the life of our planet. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sad at such an impasse, since we both wish the best for humanity >>>>>> >>>>>> Tom >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 21:46, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>>>>> Hi Tom, and VO's of XMCA >>>>>> >>>>>> Concerning your questions about our new normal now that COVID19 is with us and here to stay, I think your guess is as good as anyone's. I am not sure if we as humans have ever been burdened with such an event as this, and at the same time are able to watch the unfolding events and respond (or not respond if you are a stable genius) quickly from the feedback of data, news, anecdotes, and other forms of perception of how the virus is impacting us. >>>>>> >>>>>> What is worth remembering as well, is that epidemiologists have been warning us for decades that a pandemic was a clear an present danger to the way we live and negotiate the modern world. We see in sensurround how right they were. >>>>>> >>>>>> As I consider your question, I have to think that people mow might be sorted into two classes, well at least two classes: >>>>>> >>>>>> People who seem to think the virus is just another flu and once we find a vaccine, all will return to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday or pre-pandemic time you mark your calendar as before the pandemic hit, which of course depends upon where on the earth you are located). >>>>>> People who seem to think the virus has changed us and there will never be going back to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday...) >>>>>> I suspect the Americans of the neo-conservative persuasion who have been motivated to protest health order social distancing believe that not only this is a conspiracy to control fredom-loving people, but that we should return to Christmas 2019 as soon as possible, they are of Cohort 1. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think Cohort 2 are going to be people who take in the facts and the data and are actively attempting to sort out where do we go from here. I feel confident you are in Cohort 2, as ar most people on this list. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now, as Carol M has pointed out, in a lot of ways our discussion about online learning is a first world concern, for those who have an internet connection that is ubiquitous not only at home, but at school, work, on the bus, on planes, in cafes, and other public gathering spaces, like city halls, or town squares. That's another reason why it's hard to take Klein seriously, in terms of *tone*. >>>>>> >>>>>> I recall reading something from George Lakoff when he indicates that there is a liberal stance that seems to believe that if one objects loudly enough with "sky is falling" rhetoric and then feed out various data, that using this strategy the audience will become motivated to protest in the streets, write letters to congress, run for office, or whatever civil action must be done, and with alacrity. It doesn't work. I do not think being against anything ever "works." I think only being for something works. >>>>>> >>>>>> Let's look at Klein's article as an example. If she were to be rhetorically successful she would outline the problem she identifies (Mr. Schmidt goes to Washington), but instead of all that is wrong, talk about what can be right. Not to say she should agree with Mr. Schmidt and his ways. >>>>>> >>>>>> I feel her article could be a lot heavier on what works with education and how to enhance that further. She does mention how money should b used more for school nurses, smaller classrooms, etc. This is where she could have expanded beautifully into a viable solution to spark everyone's imaginations. But she didn't do that. She is more motivated it seems to mark Mr. Schmidt and his technological minions to masterminding a New World Order that will steal our souls and tether us to the Matrix from now until the end of time. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also feel she would have been more conducive to discourse by writing an open letter to Cuomo and Schmidt, and to invite a response. This is also leading by example to cultivate democratic processes that are near and dear to all of us. Instead she "otherfies" them, and this is also not useful. And I am not saying that as a stance to defend Mr. Schmidt or Gov Cuomo, in any way. >>>>>> >>>>>> So back to your question, I do not think that there is any way we will be extricated from this reality of COVID 19. We will have to pick our stones across the river carefully so that none of us slips and is carried down the rapids. I feel it is more useful to say we are a family of one kind, and all of us have to stay together to make it across. And that all of us deserves a life jacket as a measure of survival because not all of us will get to the other side without getting wet, or falling in. >>>>>> >>>>>> The tension between CEOs and their contempt for the slow-food of democracy is well known. If only they could persuade all of us to eat fast food, then they could take over the world as the next McDonalds, in terms of technological vision, whatever a McDonalds would look like on a screen, as an app, whathaveyou. >>>>>> >>>>>> Unfortunately what seems to elude folks who have not worked in tech, or those who see tech as just another new Ford in the garage, is that technology is always in flux. There is always development of new hardware that needs new software written to use it, so there is a double-quicksand of events upon which technology is founded (and funded) upon. That's what Moore's Law is about. >>>>>> >>>>>> Technology in order to "be itself" must always move fleetingly, like the shark must to breathe. Technology will never be able to last the halls of government. For that reason, any rendition of technology in government (and school systems for that matter) will be like bad combovers that are meant to convince us that we are now more attractive and appealing (not meaning to offend those who live by their combovers...) >>>>>> >>>>>> Where I feel technology could best serve us is to help create grassroots democracy tools, to support what we know is possible and could even threaten the basis for representative democracy and bring it closer to a straight agora democracy. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some might call this anarchy, and I could argue along the lines of David Graeber that anarchy is a more pure form of democracy practiced in all "primitive" or "ancient" cultures, it's not a perfect fit, and I intend to make that reference loosely. My point is to say there should be what David K calls involution of what government is, to what government was, and to supplant that, or rather what causes those parts to be pushed to the margins is to imagine a government where there is mor connection to agora-like venues where one person speaking in a Zoom-like frame is of equal stature of any other person speaking in the frame. One can sort of imagine this with the Zoom-empowered senate hearings which I watched for a while on the NYT front page. It was really strange to me. I suppose the danger is that we get to hear Sally Mc? from Arizona use her time to blame the Chinese for the virus, etc, for more time that we would like. But that's democracy. >>>>>> >>>>>> So one fallout could be that grade-school kids and their resulting perezhivanie from Zoom-based classrooms, will adopt the tool for political discussions as adults. Might that be a good thing? >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe. >>>>>> >>>>>> At the same time, do you remember a book that came out in the mid90s called "Silicon Snake Oil"? This is yet another phenomenon of technology, that people oozing charisma will claw their way to the microphone and pitch an idea about the next vaporware, who will then make unsubstantiated promises and claims directed to feed our fantasies and dreams, and who will then abscond with all the money, only to request not to look at the man behind the green curtain, or if pulled by the ear into a senate hearing will say "I thought it was a good idea at the time." etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think that is the view of Klein about all technology, and there are merits in that, but there are also other ways to think about it. >>>>>> >>>>>> This article about Marc Benioff in Wired recently discusses about the social entrepreneurship of his wealth:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.wired.com/story/gospel-of-wealth-according-to-marc-benioff/__;!!Mih3wA!W2jL0japsNEtbrYhH-Bsg4aGrvEOtLa5Lcne_IFo0A5MSOMh_-YQei1hdDEI575NsS4oTw$ >>>>>> Who by they way now owns the magazine Time, the way Jeff Bezos bought the WaPo, and Lauren Jobs bought The Altlantic, and Pierre Omidyar funded The Intercept. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do invite, as much as you can stomach, anyway, for any educators or other members of our vibrant list to make regular reading of Wired Magazine, which is a far more interesting read on technology than something like Fast Company. I encourage this reading, if only to know the enemy, as it were. Wired articles are far more nuanced and sophisticated than when the magazine first got off the ground in the early 90s. I find reading it helps to connect some dots for those who do not consume technology culture all the time. Just pick and choose what you are curious about. >>>>>> >>>>>> We must become familiar with the vernacular of technology if we want a hand in the game of how it plays in education, our stomping grounds. This will require effort on our part. That is not to say we must adopt all the shiny new toys. But we can be like a Consumer Report for education, and evaluate and measure the good the bad and the ugly of technology and its use in the edu sphere. >>>>>> >>>>>> We cannot sit on our laurels and wait for someone else to decide for us how technology will be deployed. That stance is what the mythology of inevitable technology rests and self-perpetuates. >>>>>> >>>>>> We must be more tech literate, and we must be the first to coin words and how they manifest in edu venues. What works what doesn't. I don't see any other way to fight back and to keep control of the educational narrative, where of course we want to hardwire zopeds, manifest and lead critical and nourishing perezhivanie, and model by example sterling mediated learning experiences for students and teachers. >>>>>> >>>>>> What other projects can there be? >>>>>> >>>>>> For me, this is "fighting back" because it makes the sort of shark-like entrepreneur recede for a time (as they will always be looking for a way into edu's tax coffers), because we are successful getting education right. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do not accept that entreprenuership is what took the sanctity from teaching and learning. But that's an argument to be made. I feel it is only one side of the argument. >>>>>> >>>>>> Once I had an male acquaintance tell me that one reason women are in inferior roles is because they let this happen to them. As you might imagine, I had a real hard time with that argument and I had to clench my jaw to now spew various vitriol upon him. But after I thought about it, in a narrow sense he is not wrong because not it is true that enough women in history identified the value to struggle for rights even if they would not see equality in their own lifetimes. There are many explanations for why that did not happen, that are not facile to depict. But then I also had to think of how much women's struggles have succeeded because they did decide to not let this happen to them anymore. But now women are learning in the US, anyway, that nothing fought for is a permanent fixture, and so we must become resigned to the perpetual struggle for equality, as all marginalized people must. >>>>>> >>>>>> So now I direct this to our context of education in the venue of online learning. This is not an easy question, and it is not intended to trivialize the work and efforts of many on this list, but it is instead a question of inner reflection, or a taking of inventory of one's own life: >>>>>> >>>>>> How much has each of you done to take measure and fight for meaningful education in the classroom? >>>>>> >>>>>> Could you have done more? Can you do more? >>>>>> >>>>>> Then the same for asking yourself how have you integrated technology appropriately into your learning methods and general perezhivanie. >>>>>> >>>>>> I hope this might provide some further food for thought concerning preservation on the sanctity of learning and instruction in the classroom. >>>>>> >>>>>> So all this is to reply to you Tom, that in short, the nefarious They can only take control if we let them. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Annalisa >>>>>> >>>>>> ps please excuse all typos, which are all made on my own. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 11:26 AM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>>>> >>>>>> [EXTERNAL] >>>>>> Hi Annalisa >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you for providing the details of your deep and committed background in distance / online learning. Mine is obviously shallow, which must have triggered you and 'Robsub' somewhat. >>>>>> >>>>>> But my questioning is in the newer context of the Covid19 threats to global society and the solutions being sought to extricate us from them. >>>>>> >>>>>> Governor Cuomo's conversation with Schmidt to examine solutions to the problems of present coping and future emergence from the pandemic is understandable. Two persons with power and a need to act, discuss what technology (in its widest hard- and software aspects) has to offer. >>>>>> >>>>>> In a democracy we can assess the solutions they propose and shape them to what we know to be as near to optimal for our society as possible. Your assertion of the efficacy of our agency which Klein seems to deny, >>>>>> with her politico-economic caveats. >>>>>> >>>>>> Schmidt has an evangelism for the potential of technology, but expressed with such restraint - he's no zealot. He also, in the video of the ECNY conversation with Marie-Josee Kravis, sees the lack of 'simplicity' in the three-tier democratic system of the US. He is a CEO with an organisation geared to problem-analysis, solution choices, and operational capability which can be put into action without delaying debate. He expressed no hostility to 'democracy' but as he said, it does not work simply. >>>>>> >>>>>> Klein reminds us to be wary if not alarmed, not because she is despairing (I believe), but because that direct entrepreneurial drive has profit making as its unavoidable aim. Whatever Schmidt's humanistic feelings, if profit doesn't result from his and his companies actions, they will not survive. That competitive drive is also present in his aspirations for international dominance (see his remarks on the rise of China's technology). >>>>>> >>>>>> So far, the sort of distance / online learning you have worked on, has been nested in the context of family and (normal) school life. That normality had implicit in it human values, customs and structures, whatever differences of class, race, gender and culture were present. The melding of state and enterprise in a newly-developing novel (5G?)high-tech 'solution' to mediating education presents a situation which need to be examined I believe. And my query, in that 'Kleinian' context was looking for answers from those, like yourself, with wide experience of previous technological 'answers' and their implications for the results within the learner. >>>>>> >>>>>> I affirm, along with you, the irrepressible resistance and sheer cantankerousness we humans bring to unjust situations. But such fighting back will often be unsuccessful in its aims, when the need to reduce labour time with new technology is driving events - Luddism and machine looms? Our human drive to change and adapt, our use of our agency to create or alter our lives must not be suppressed. But what Klein is reminding us of is just how tilted is the balance of power - the power of the state and behind it, the drive from the vast corporate world, for profit. Our agency is so often undone by the arbitrary intervention of those forces. >>>>>> >>>>>> Those are the forces which have destroyed what you name the 'sanctity' of teaching and learning. I would name it the basic need for those goals, but we share it. With the need to re-invigorate just such a precious resource, we will continue to fight like hell. Despite their mere humanness, corporations and states at present have greater knowledge and power than 'mere' citizens. My intervention in xmca discussion was really to say "They're looking to take even more control of daily life. >>>>>> Within academia, you can analyse how they are making such changes happen and continue to alert the rest of us, if you fear the consequences of their changes." >>>>>> >>>>>> Best wishes >>>>>> Tom >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 22:29, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>>>>> Hi Tom, >>>>>> >>>>>> May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? >>>>>> >>>>>> Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed by SL's prospects. >>>>>> >>>>>> In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. >>>>>> >>>>>> Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. >>>>>> >>>>>> What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of associations of place with learning. >>>>>> >>>>>> In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and constrain learning to books. >>>>>> >>>>>> We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. >>>>>> >>>>>> I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of learning. >>>>>> >>>>>> I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged learning venues . Not with grade school. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. >>>>>> >>>>>> What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!W2jL0japsNEtbrYhH-Bsg4aGrvEOtLa5Lcne_IFo0A5MSOMh_-YQei1hdDEI576CAUnQDQ$ >>>>>> >>>>>> It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. >>>>>> >>>>>> It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. >>>>>> >>>>>> Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. >>>>>> >>>>>> If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be integrated with existing models. >>>>>> >>>>>> If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. >>>>>> >>>>>> One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and surveillance is a constructive combination. >>>>>> >>>>>> There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and introspection, I will never accept that reality. >>>>>> >>>>>> To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers and pins." >>>>>> >>>>>> I just do not believe this narrative. >>>>>> >>>>>> We cannot give up. >>>>>> >>>>>> Is there a fight ahead? Yes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most definitely, yes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Annalisa >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>>>> >>>>>> [EXTERNAL] >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello Annalisa >>>>>> Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. >>>>>> What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such learning takes place?'. >>>>>> What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes for the perezhivanie of the learner, which shapes her social being and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? >>>>>> Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. >>>>>> I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kind regards >>>>>> Tom >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>>>>> Hello Tom, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you for posting the link. >>>>>> >>>>>> I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended into our lives. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. >>>>>> >>>>>> At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). >>>>>> >>>>>> I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. >>>>>> >>>>>> Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. >>>>>> >>>>>> She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control the world. >>>>>> >>>>>> Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to deliberate the way forward. >>>>>> >>>>>> As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency to decide how to use our tools. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. >>>>>> >>>>>> So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply does not hold water for me. >>>>>> >>>>>> I hope this might be a little encouraging. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Annalisa >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? >>>>>> >>>>>> [EXTERNAL] >>>>>> Hello Tom Richardson >>>>>> This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat Project" that has just finished its >>>>>> planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human development, and theories of "Development >>>>>> in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. >>>>>> Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. >>>>>> The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. >>>>>> In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced >>>>>> a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most members of this discussion over the years, >>>>>> is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). >>>>>> >>>>>> We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. >>>>>> >>>>>> Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about for 100 years. >>>>>> Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing working models of effective practices that do NOT >>>>>> assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for asking. >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson > wrote: >>>>>> Greetings Xmca-ers >>>>>> I would like to raise a question. >>>>>> In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening recently: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks after that article appeared, he described the ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the country had been forced to cobble together during this public health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. >>>>>> >>>>>> The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " >>>>>> >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!W2jL0japsNEtbrYhH-Bsg4aGrvEOtLa5Lcne_IFo0A5MSOMh_-YQei1hdDEI575PTpH0_A$ >>>>>> >>>>>> Just asking >>>>>> Tom Richardson >>>>>> Middlesbrough UK >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >>>>>> >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu . >>>>>> For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . >>>>>> For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200527/9f2c934f/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed May 27 14:11:55 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 06:11:55 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Spinoza says that passions (in the sense of something you undergo, c.f. "the passion of the Christ") are feelings that increase or decrease the capacity of the body for action or the idea of the feeling (!). And, alas, I just gave you a pretty good example As Mike points out, there are ways of dealing with the unfair attacks on Bernstein's legacy that increase the capacity for action many times. These tend to be based on the idea of the feeling, and you can find a lot of them in the LCHC autobiography and elsewhere. I think you cannot find them in the attached article, because I am still undergoing some passion over this: for me it is hopelessly inter-twined-and-woven with attacks on Ruqaiya Hasan's legacy and the legacy of Halliday with which I am intellectually and even emotionally inter-twined and -woven. Sometimes (e.g. my last post) it much diminises the capacity of my body, of which my feelings are not always the best functioning part, for action. For which I apologize to the whole list. Here in Korea, schools are reopening and classes are going off line again. This has been a gradual process, both because different grades have different levels of urgency (high schoolers who are entering college are considered urgent) and because different ages have different levels of risk (again, older kids given to clubbing and courier jobs--the sources of two recent spikes--are at greater risk). But yesterday we started second grade classes, which means that our Vygotsky Community, which is overwhelmingly composed of elementary school teachers, is now back in the classroom. You can see from this order that one thing that was not discussed was the different levels of teacher presence that kids emotionally need. This is something teachers themselves are quite sensitive too--it is why second-grade teachers are usually motherly women with school age children of their own, and sixth-grade teachers tend to look like that physical education trainer you were so terrified of in sixth grade. But varying levels of need for teacher presence has not really been a factor in public health planning at all, nor am I sure it should be. At some point (adolescence?), children really do need to differentiate their emotional attachment to a subject matter from their emotional attachment to a teacher, not just because study has to become self-sustaining to go anywhere but because teachers are passionate bodies and this can greatly increase but also greatly decrease their capacity for action. In China in the eighties, for example, young professors did date their students at university level but nobody dated anybody before that. I think that here--helping us distinguish passion for the subject matter from passion for the instructor--Zoom can also play an important role, the same kind of positive role that those goofy parasol-hats they put on Chinese preschoolers to enforce social distancing have played. (By the way, our Vygotsky Community has more than doubled in size since the crisis began and we went on-line. Believe me--it's the subject matter!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WBIKx_PGWy9c_5V3mDvDNJVVxbZ8MEjkHhRS-OIGQmR1hzERRuRQ9FPV6IgP2zuUMhn5OA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WBIKx_PGWy9c_5V3mDvDNJVVxbZ8MEjkHhRS-OIGQmR1hzERRuRQ9FPV6IgP2zuw1k_7AA$ On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 1:36 AM Tom Richardson < tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > Hi David > Fortunately I was listening to this thread, so "I hear you!". I shall dig > to see what I find about Spinoza in LSV. > Big thank you. > Tom > BoWen > > > On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 22:43, David Kellogg wrote: > >> Rob-- >> >> Thanks--my link works okay, but it's probably because I'm already logged >> in. So I replaced the link with yours. >> >> For a fine example of witless misunderstanding justified with willfull >> misrepresentation that was used to drive Bernstein's work out of the >> academy, see the work of Peter Jones, referenced in my article. >> >> Peter E. Jones (2013) Bernstein's ?codes? and the linguistics of >> ?deficit?, Language and Education, 27:2, 161-179, DOI: >> 10.1080/09500782.2012.760587 >> >> Notice the scare quotes around "code" (which Bernstein did >> use) and likewise the term "deficit" (which Bernstein explicitly >> repudiated). Clever, huh? >> >> But Jones doesn't make this stuff up. He mostly just borrows from the >> long liberal anti-Marxist American tradition of this kind of attack, going >> back to William Labov. For example, the "linguist" Jones cites against >> Halliday is actually a historian of psychology (Jonathan Edwards) who >> argues that some cultures can have completely degenerate moral codes but >> very advanced languages, such as cannibal savages! >> >> A few years ago we were discussing an article here on xmca by Marilyn >> Fleer and I asked her if she was a Bernsteinian. I have always considered >> myself one, and I was genuinely curious to find others of a similar >> persuasion; Bernstein's name was not so blackened in Australia as it was in >> America, and Ruqaiya Hasan, who taught in Sydney, was always proud to >> acknowledge Bernstein as her colleague and mentor. Marilyn was a little >> indignant. >> >> Michael-- >> >> Here in Korea the main way of giving on-line classes is just uploading >> audio file which the student then listen to when they have time and giving >> lots of homework. Curiously, some of the kids prefer this. ALL of my >> students dislike using the camera. I am not sure what to make of this... >> >> Every crisis is a turning point. Education has gleefully saddled three >> cash cows: foreign students, college sports, and diploma mills, and all >> three of these are now hamburger. On the one hand, Zoom classes and audio >> classes allow us to provide universal college education for almost >> nothing--if we can solve the mediational problems. On the other, pinkspace >> classes can easily be social-distanced--if we can just make undergraduate >> classes the size of graduate seminars (with more classes outside in good >> weather). But both solutions--universal online tertiary education and >> extending the graduate seminar experience to undergraduates--will >> inevitably hinge on the outcome of the struggle to make education an >> intellectual public institution instead of a semi-intellectual luxury >> brand, and this in turn will hinge on the struggle for preventive medicine >> based on foresight instead of astonishment. >> >> Oi, Tom! (Way over on the other thread, so I have to shout!) >> >> Vygotsky writes a LOT about Spinoza; his sister was doing her PhD on the >> guy when he was still in high school and he went to stay with her at Moscow >> University and caught the bug. He was working on a vast tome on how >> Spinoza's work could be retooled to give us a Marxist (materialist, monist, >> but dialectical) theory of higher emotions when he died. We are translating >> it all into Korean, and I am trying to write a preface. Spinoza believed in >> sentient meat: "Deus, Sive Natura" ("God, that is to say, Nature...") Above >> all, though, Spinoza believed that emotions are anything that increases or >> decreases our ability to do things. The interesting thing, which I am still >> trying to wrap my head around, is that one of those things that does this >> is the idea of the emotion itself--the perezhivanie. >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WBIKx_PGWy9c_5V3mDvDNJVVxbZ8MEjkHhRS-OIGQmR1hzERRuRQ9FPV6IgP2zuUMhn5OA$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WBIKx_PGWy9c_5V3mDvDNJVVxbZ8MEjkHhRS-OIGQmR1hzERRuRQ9FPV6IgP2zuw1k_7AA$ >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 10:51 PM Glassman, Michael >> wrote: >> >>> Hello David, Elizabeth, Annalisa, Rob, others, >>> >>> Well social presence and teacher presence are two completely different >>> lines of research and thinking even though they sound alike. Teacher >>> presence comes from localized classroom research while social presence >>> comes from the communication field I believe sometime in the 1960s. Lately >>> I have begun to think of teacher presence as similar to Bourdeiu's cultural >>> capital. Our education system teaches certain groups of children how to >>> read and get in sync with teachers from their more subtle physical signs so >>> that they become more successful later in their school careers and in life. >>> Many of the more successful children also get practice in reading these >>> different signs at home. It is the old adage, don't listen to what I say, >>> watch what I do. Social presence on the other hand is more related to our >>> own understanding of our own communications and the value of those >>> communications. We have a sense of what we are doing from those who are >>> watching us (in the broad sense), and this sense changes as our sense of >>> those who are watching us changes not only how we act but the investment we >>> make in what we do changes accordingly. I see it all the time in teachers, >>> who they are changes completely when they get up in from of a room of >>> students. Just a mind experiment. The next time you read an XMCA post see >>> if you can imagine a few of the members standing over your should observing >>> you are you are reading with the expectation of some response. See how this >>> might change your behavior. >>> >>> As for Zoom. I just think it is not a good tool for education and the >>> reason we use it is illusory (because it recreates a place-based experience >>> so we are more comfortable with it?). Zoom's purpose is not education in >>> the sense of knowledge sharing and knowledge creation. Its proximal purpose >>> I believe was to sell to corporations and such for meetings so they would >>> not have to spend as much on travel. Its distal purpose, meeting platforms >>> in general, was so individuals could engage in multiple activities related >>> to the topic but not focused on the topic. I mean it is kind of cool, you >>> can have a meeting where you wear a tie on top and boxer shorts below. And >>> we are sometimes a talking head culture. But it is by nature very >>> unilateral and expert oriented. Do we have to develop a whole new cultural >>> capital oeuvre for Zoom meetings. We must make sure that those who are >>> ahead stay ahead. Annalisa in answer to your question no education or Zoom, >>> I worry about binary choices such as this. Maybe we should be asking >>> ourselves how we got here in the first place. Why are these our only two >>> choices right now, and many attempts using Meeting platforms are failing as >>> they seem to be, how do we move forward from here. Why aren't we asking >>> more questions, trying to understand how our great digital experiment is >>> failing education. And speaking to Rob's poignant use of the term pink >>> space, why is the lack of universal broadband dominating discussions. I >>> think about the whole one to one movement and I really question why we >>> leaped ahead to this without a reckoning over the need to have every corner >>> of our society equitably wired (spoiler alert: because instead of >>> corporations making oodles of money our society will have to spend oodles >>> of money). So Annalisa I got back to your question, is it better to have no >>> education or Zoom and I ask if you stepped on a nail would it be better to >>> put on a band-aid to stop the bleeding or to figure our how to save your >>> life (I know the answer will be both but where do I prioritize). >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> On Behalf Of robsub@ariadne.org.uk >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 4:53 AM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" >>> >>> Just a couple of very quick observations. (I find regularly that by the >>> time I have formulated my response to something, the conversation has moved >>> on by several degrees, so I'm getting in quickly.) >>> >>> Firstly the link to your article on Ruqaiya didn't resolve, David. But I >>> found it here: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-UtouXiIa-kw$ >>> . Thank you for that, though - looks well worth reading. >>> >>> Secondly, I always had the impression that Bernstein was resisted not >>> because of his work on codes specifically, but because he was too prone to >>> allowing his work to be used to justify class differentials, almost to the >>> level of the poor keep themselves poor by deliberately restricting the >>> language their children learn. >>> >>> Thirdly, meatspace. Hmmm. I'm toying with the idea of pinkspace. Less >>> physically vulgar than meatspace and reflects the reality that the physical >>> world, just like the online world, is dominated by those of us who are >>> pink. Just a thought. Needs developing though. >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> >>> On 2020-05-26 03:08, David Kellogg wrote: >>> > Michael, Anthony, Elizabeth--and (of course) Annalisa: >>> > >>> > I apologize for changing the threadline title AGAIN. I feel like the >>> > five-year-old who is always unscrewing the back of the TV set to see >>> > the little people inside; I was very dissatisfied withe the abstract >>> > theory on the other line, according to which everything is everything >>> > and mediation and unmediation are equally both and I wanted a way of >>> > finding the people inside it. I thought the term "meatspace", which >>> > Annalisa has heard before, captured that feeling pretty well (and >>> > there are also some echoes of a corruscating book review I once read >>> > in MCA titled something like "Yer askin' me to believe in sentient >>> > MEAT????") >>> > >>> > Let's use Michael's categories of "teacher presence" and "social >>> > presence" instead, so long as we keep in mind the point that Michael >>> > made at the end, that is, the teacher is always present even when the >>> > teacher is not present (as when the child is doing homework alone) and >>> > the additional point that teacher presence is one kind of social >>> > presence. But because presence and absence are (like mediated and >>> > unmediated) equally both ungradeable categories, I would prefer to >>> > talk about teacher distancing and social distancing. Michael Osterholm >>> > has objected to the term social distancing for the same reasons I >>> > raised earlier--it's a physical, mechanical distancing that actually >>> > creates a higher form of solidarity (and that is why the elements of >>> > society which oppose higher forms of solidarity oppose it). So I put >>> > "social distancing" in scare quotes. But the teacher distancing is >>> > real enough. >>> > >>> > Real but not by itself of developmental significance. What worries me >>> > is the possibility that we are adding to the kinds of inequalitiees >>> > that Annalisa, Henry and Tom are talking about on the other thread. It >>> > seems to me that teacher distancing differentially hurts some >>> > populations. I disagree that Koreans are more homogeneous than other >>> > cultures (in class terms significantly less so) and I also think that >>> > if you were to sit through a lecture in the Korean language without >>> > understanding Korean you would not agree that language is the least >>> > important aspect of teacher presence. But (to bring these two >>> > together) I think that students who are able to focus on language, and >>> > on particular kinds of language, are disproportionately enabled in >>> > conditions of teacher distancing. This is the issue that dare not >>> > speak its name, for when Bernstein tried to raise it he was, as >>> > Halliday noted, "driven out of the field". One of the reasons I wrote >>> > the article linked below is that Ruqaiya Hasan was not. >>> > >>> > David Kellogg >>> > >>> > Sangmyung University >>> > >>> > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> > Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie >>> > w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d >>> > 7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-Utot_Yz0eEQ$ [1] >>> > >>> > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: _L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> > Works_ _Volume One: Foundations of Pedology_" >>> > >>> > >>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 >>> > 5270__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqO >>> > DPVr-UtotPljj6rQ$ [2] >>> > >>> > >>> > Links: >>> > ------ >>> > [1] >>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie >>> > w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zc >>> > e9P2I5M_FZBJKElhGyP20UejX0w$ >>> > [2] >>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 >>> > 5270__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zce9P2I5M_FZB >>> > JKElhGyP026P9-1A$ >>> >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200528/28b2cc81/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Wed May 27 18:11:33 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 01:11:33 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: <78D4E5A7-6661-4F59-A41F-A1FD92995FD6@gmail.com> <29749880-98FE-47D7-84E1-841BB6B9B6C5@gmail.com> <32E7CCCD-69BC-4AB8-AC9A-E1A8F581835C@gmail.com> , Message-ID: Hi Tom, Very glad to be of kind assistance to your reading list. In reference to something said earlier on this list about lazy reading, there will be always more to read, and especially so if Mike Cole begins sending on his articles (which I'm still digesting)!! There is an expectation to read and do your homework on this list, I'd say. But happily there is no one grading you on your homework. It just helps you get more out of the activity of people who participate on this list. Additionally, welcome to the Vygotsky "club". You will likely have your mind blown, palpated, bent, fire-torch-annealed and many other sundry transformations. Just hang on for the ride, and keep reading, reflecting, CHATing and writing. Triangles away! Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Tom Richardson Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 11:44 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Thanks Annalisa Wow - more reading, and they all sound fascinating and indispensable. Just at the moment I've discovered the Vygotsky Archive - and found 'Understanding Vygotsky' -der Veer, Valsiner , on my shelves - auto-didacticism is becoming a little exhausting, but well worth it and fun, especially sharing with colleagues on XMCA- treasure....... Tom On Wed, 27 May 2020 at 17:50, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hi Tom, Henry, and VO's, I'm glad that Henry was able to be of some comfort to your concerns Tom. I might also encourage you to read "Betraying Spinoza: The Renegade Jew Who Gave Us Modernity" (2009) by Rebecca Goldstein, as well as "Descartes' Error: Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain" (1995) by Antonio Damasio. Betraying Spinoza is one of my favorite books ever. The reason that I find Damasio so important in brain research is that he has been able to ascertain that we require our feelings first in order to reason. It's not that other way around, as much as steel and concrete rationalists want to believe. Damasio was able to ascertain this based upon a patient of his who suffered a brain injury to the part of the brain that we understand necessary for feelings. To direct a comment to Henry, I think the difference between emotion and feeling as you indicate does have distinctions, and thinking out loud, it is that emotions have something to do with the limbic system, while feelings arise from executive functions (hence as you say the narratives we have about ourselves). Another great historical account about Spinoza is "The Courtier and the Heretic" (2007) by Matthew Stewart, which focuses upon the lives of Leibniz and Spinoza and an account of their only meeting. It's a great page turner. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of HENRY SHONERD > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 10:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Glad it was helpful, Tom:) On May 27, 2020, at 3:24 AM, Tom Richardson > wrote: Good Morning Henry Your confusions and eventual clarity explain and help a great deal, mirroring my own as I read Damasio's account. I shall dig further with gratitude to you. Best Tom [https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://drive.google.com/uc?id=0B0zqMvyA6XEhZkdKSUk5eUxRUnNkbWZFdHlaRlpJci1fQ1lJ&export=download__;!!Mih3wA!W9Pa_mGEDpoY5Vk-N6zPxD1nHx-wR1gWU-rH4XCDMGLmMWDHVa14H0RON5jAjFvKxRlX5A$ ] BoWen On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 22:29, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: Hi Tom, No problem enabling your laziness with my shallow reading of Spinzoa. I confess that I have read nothing directly from Spinoza, but have read about his philosphy and about his life. It?s been a while since I read Looking for Spinoza: Joy Sorrow and the Feeling Brain. I am looking at the book now and am amazed with how much highlighting there is and how little of it I remember in detail. What got me into it was the distinction between emotions and feelings. Damasio is a neuroscientist, and the book are full of the neural correlates of affective states, being the ?easy? problem of consciousness. The ?hard? problem of explaining the reason any arrangements at all of matter can possibly result in consciousness is not explained. What got me into it was the distinction between emotions and feelings. Damasio associates emotions (fear, anger, surprise, disgust, sadness and happiness) with primal parts of the brain connected to homeostasis of the organism. Emotions are evoked prior to the more narrative experience of feelings. To tell the truth, I am still not entirely clear on the distinction, largely because he explains the difference through case studies of people who have suffered damage to different parts of the brain, losing me. Maybe I got it at the time, but looking through the book now, it?s not so clear. One interesting thing is that we can have social emotions, which means homeostasis is not just internal to the human organism. Anyway, the book is worth digging through. Hope that helps a little. Whew! Henry On May 26, 2020, at 1:31 PM, Tom Richardson > wrote: Hi Henry Thank you for your thoughtful, fact full reply. It would save me continuing to plough through Damasio's well-written but fairly lengthy book 'Looking for Spinoza', if you were to send me a brief personal summary of what he means intellectually for you - (or am I being lazy?) - since it is always illuminating to understand what our thinkers mean to/for our peers. I have not broached Baruch S's work for myself. Best wishes Tom On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 17:09, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: Hi Tom, Thank you for your rich, well-thought-out response to my question. And thank you for recognizing that I wanted it to be generous. Perhaps a quibble is that you associate the first stage of Stalinist rule as capitalist, rather than industrial, as I understand it. I think that?s important. Stalin?s top-down planning had the same hall marks as Mao?s, Castro?s and the current North Korean leader. I appreciate your optimism that any system devised by humans can create human thriving that is not destructive of of humanity itself. We seem to have boxed ourselves into a corner by destroying our niche, the world. COVID-19 and climate change, IMHO, we are all, indvidually and collectively complicit. I hope that we can get beyond romanticism and cynicism in meeting our fate. I think that Vygotsky and Spinoza represent what can come of wrestling with open hearts and clear thinking with our condition. Henry On May 26, 2020, at 3:09 AM, Tom Richardson > wrote: Good Morning (GMT+1) Henry I'm touched by your mail today. My life experience does not include such practical engagement as yours, with any of the major social disruptions / attempts at new organisation, of the C20. It seems dismissively facile to criticise amazing historic re-organisations of social life like the Cuban Revolution, but it is necessary. Otherwise the same mistakes will happen again and again. The political strand which I accept as most accurately analysing historical and current reality characterises the liberation movements (particularities, differences, I'm ignoring for sake of quick explanation) post 1900, as nationalist, and mostly state socialist/capitalist. IE they are top-down, state directed anti-imperialist/colonialist movements. The self-organisation and free association of the producers that is the essence of communist organisation is absent. Often there is some commitment to a Kautskyan / Stalinist "two stage theory", requiring full capitalist development to prepare the ground for the next step of proletarian rule - eg in the South African struggle. We can see where that has led so far. But the analysts I accept, posit that socialism in one country cannot be created nor sustained while the basis of total global social reproduction is the money based economy, taken forward by the capital-labour relationship of commodity production - the so-called 'free market' whose anarchy ensures an absence of any organised relationship to global human needs, since it is driven by the value-based circulation of commodities dominating all global production. The freedom is that of the individual / joint-stock company in the pursuit of surplus value. And, yes, Marx, does provide an analysis of "money" which indicates how a future system of production would/could not be based on the use of money and therefore wages. There is so much literature about this to be investigated, (much of it written by US authors, extraordinarily, given the Chicago School and the legacy of McCarthy). I started with Engels 'Socialism, Utopian and Scientific' which explained in a way that my pro-market, individualist history teacher could not, why the Anti-Corn Law League had 'won' and the Chartists had failed. Anyway, I am only recycling, from my own limited understanding, the sort of analysis that the original authors of the literature I value provide in overwhelming but convincing detail. While the way forward towards a future that communists see as essential if the planet is not to be destroyed, or at least human life on it, is not in prospect as far as any realist can foresee, at present, the reality of the Barbarism that Capital brings (together with the technology necessary for the possibility of real change), is clear every moment in our lives. Human resistance and creative answers to apparently insoluble problems, and the reality that the working class has nothing to gain that sustains real fulfilling human life from capital's continuation, sustain my knowledge that my commitment to moving beyond capitalism, is both essential and realistic. I trust that this attempted answer to your generous question makes sufficient sense . Best wishes Tom On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 22:26, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: Hi Tom, What is it about ?free market economies? is the cause of wage slavery? Is there at least some jiggering of the market that could end ?destructive anarchy?? Do we do away with money? And I am serious here. I take it that capitalism is the problem, not the market, or money. I was in the doctoral program in economics at UC Berkeley during the late 60s. My concentrations were comparative economic systems and economic planning. I dropped out after only getting a masters degree in economics there, and went to Cuba to cut sugar cane with the Venceremos Brigade. I felt strongly Che?s call to make the New Man (though women were there too, and check out the film ?Lucia?) of that era, but I think that central planning (Castro?) of the Cuban economy had a destructive and anarchic side. Castro apologized for his mistakes during the year of 10 million tons of sugar cane production, but the damage was done. Cuba has been a shining light in some ways for me and others, not least the health care workers, the original Doctors Without Borders, that beautifully exemplify the new human. So, really, what do we replace markets and money with? Or is it the ?free? part that?s the rub. Henry On May 25, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Tom Richardson > wrote: Hello Annalisa "All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is:" Since I have suggested neither of the alternatives you state as the only way forward, it would surely invalidate your further argument. But I must admit that the idea of thirty thousand working class families and then some, organising to change the wage-slavery employment system that they are exploited by, would be a great idea. Here's to that day, as the freely associated producers of our social life organise to end the destructive anarchy of our present free-market economies. Regards Tom On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 19:58, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hi Tom and others, I agree that Capitalism is bad, and that it causes wealth and poverty in extremes. Which then creates social injustices that would be much lessened with less economic inequality. I do not think that I ever said (did I?) to ignore the traditional power structures. I said that every day we negotiate the power structures. And when we decide it's not working we can create change. That possibility is always an option, but it demands diligence, discipline, and discovery. All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is: 1. it's futile. Give up. The structures will always be against us. Settle in to your given hand of bad fortune. 2. grab a gun and kill as many people sitting in seats of power (which means the chair of power remains to be replaced by someone else). Forgive me if I reject both those options. As I said, perhaps in another post, the liberal position of citing data and objecting to the existence of that data, isn't going to make power structures change. What would make change is for those 15K-30K families to organize and among themselves decide how and what they can do to make their lot better. It's called organizing. Civil disobedience works because it is civil. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > Sent: Monday, May 25, 2020 3:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hi Annalisa Good Morning - just a correction to figures about poverty in our town - I should have been more careful,; fortunately the figures from memory were an underestimate rather than an exaggeration: Almost 30,000 children are living in poverty across Teesside - and half are from working families. And stark new statistics reveal that the picture is worst in central Middlesbrough - as hyper-local, official Government data reveals three quarters of all kids in one neighbourhood are living below the breadline. Regards Tom [https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://drive.google.com/uc?id=0B0zqMvyA6XEhZkdKSUk5eUxRUnNkbWZFdHlaRlpJci1fQ1lJ&export=download__;!!Mih3wA!W9Pa_mGEDpoY5Vk-N6zPxD1nHx-wR1gWU-rH4XCDMGLmMWDHVa14H0RON5jAjFvKxRlX5A$ ] BoWen On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 22:17, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Alas, hello again Tom (& VO's), While I accept your assessment of our differences in approaches and understandings, I do not see that it is obvious that there is no meeting point. For example, innovation exists in science and in art, in business it is entrepreneurship. I believe that there are good things that come from business entrepreneurship, and there are bad things too. We love that art and science are innovative, when they are, but there can be failings there too. The captains of industry who believe they are self-made men, and who believe that anyone who decides for oneself being on the assembly line of the manufacturing floor is only a dumb pawn in a larger game, would be in my estimation the worst that kind of human that entrepreneurship generates. Elon Musk is one example, perhaps. As much as I likely would not want Elon Musk over for dinner, I can admire that he has been able to steward the creation of an electric car in the midst of a sleepwalking auto industry that cannot envision automobiles without a gas-eating combustible engine. At the same time what he gives he takes away: I'm not sure that I can ever get on board a space rocket to inhabit Mars. I actually object to that project because as long as we haven't worked out how to feed everyone on this earthship, we should not be escaping it by polluting another planet, even if, as Carl Sagan told us, there are billions and billions of them out there. "They" in the form of (other they)'s do not have power unless we give them that power. That power is always up for debate every minute, every day, every year. Given that there are now 38 million unemployed in the US (I can't name the numbers elsewhere and I'm sorry about that), that's like the entire population of California being on the dole. It is a significant number, and it may be that many of those people start their own businesses, not because of education or desire, but of necessity. Many of the young and unemployed are educated. That could be a combustible cocktail, depending upon their self-awareness and outward worldview. One strange article in NYT described a scene designer who has been out of work since the health order shutdown, and hasn't received any unemployment yet because she filed in New Jersey, while her partner did because he filed in New York. Then she got an offer to work in a company who is making ... wait for it.... facemasks, so now she is toiling over a machine, sewing facemasks. I don't think I could live in that situation because of the stark irony, if that is a just word for that. I mourn the loss of her creativity, but I hope it is temporary. Now out of necessity, she's had to travel that path. So I can agree with you that because of the government order to shut down business, and because a company who hired her decided to make facemasks, because what other ingenious product would or could one manufacture right now? they have shaped her working life. Have they shaped her social life, though. I mean completely? She still has her contacts on her iPhone, she likely returns home to her partner to cook dinner and search for more work. Her desires and dreams are likely impacted, but has she completely given up? Should she? I am not pro-revolution, only because they create rivers of blood in streets, etc. I'm more of the mind that incremental choices can together create a tipping point of social change. For example, consider the tiny house movement. Or how young people will share resources, or reevaluate buying things, or what they eat. People make the best lemonade only with the best lemons. There is going to have to be a reckoning of having so many unemployed people. It can't be ignored. To just pretend that everyone will be happy with a lower wage job (lower than when the pandemic hit), is only going to drive people to desperate measures. The country will want to put people to work and this could be an opportunity for collective change, for creating meaningful jobs. Because who wants a civil war. So there will have to be some sort of appeasement for the social reality that people must have their basic needs met. The temporary stimulus is a lifeline, but the real economic difficulties will start when people start to return to work, and there are less jobs with the result being there is less money circulating in the economy overall. With interest rates so low, and pumping more money into the economy is only going to raise the prices of things, possibly wages, but not the buying power. People will cut bait from the lives they once had, and simplify. Moving to less crowded cities and towns, returning to live with parents. Perhaps creating cooperatives. One area for discovery with so much time on one's hands is handcrafting. I think there will be a blooming of new businesses that incorporate *real* labor. This may also usher in more vocational training programs. One article I read today discussed the eating of meat, and how it is a destructive social practice including its impact on climate change. Largely that industry depends upon of automation, and now with slaughterhouses being virus hotspots, do you want to trust that the meat you buy is not tainted with COVID? Or that you are forcing a worker into an unsafe work environment and catch the virus? If people were decide to stop eating meat, or reduce even its consumption because it's too expensive, and if the government stops giving subsidies to these agro-corporations, then these polluting companies will fail. That would be great news. Then the writer pointed out that if we returned to diets higher in plant-based food, that would increase demand for real farms, real entrepreneurship and generate jobs, as it takes more people to grow vegetables, than it does to raise pigs or chickens. We would also become healthier as a population. There is already a network of farmer's markets for local produce, so it may mean a growth in that area. I suppose what I'm trying to say is I do not think it is so cut and dried that we are subject to the worst forever. I think with so much time on our hands people are free to organize and decide to help one another in mutual aid. We do not have to rely on traditional power structures, and we do not have to resort to bloody revolutions. Depending upon what you are looking for in life, there is a third way arising. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 4:24 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hello once more Annalisa Our difference of approach to and understanding of the modern state and the production of social life obviously admits of no meeting point as far as I read your astonishingly wide-ranging and impassioned response. Without the simplicity of my reply intending to signal a facile sarcasm, I must bluntly state that I begin from the acceptance that nefarious or not, 'They', in the sense of government and corporations, do have the power to control and shape the organisation of social life. We can, if enough socio-political pressure can be brought to bear through social movements, rebellions, revolts, shift certain aspects of that fashioning of our lives. But at present, the relationship of wage slavery imposed by Capital ,and the society shaped by that relationship, are dominant throughout the life of our planet. Sad at such an impasse, since we both wish the best for humanity Tom On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 21:46, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hi Tom, and VO's of XMCA Concerning your questions about our new normal now that COVID19 is with us and here to stay, I think your guess is as good as anyone's. I am not sure if we as humans have ever been burdened with such an event as this, and at the same time are able to watch the unfolding events and respond (or not respond if you are a stable genius) quickly from the feedback of data, news, anecdotes, and other forms of perception of how the virus is impacting us. What is worth remembering as well, is that epidemiologists have been warning us for decades that a pandemic was a clear an present danger to the way we live and negotiate the modern world. We see in sensurround how right they were. As I consider your question, I have to think that people mow might be sorted into two classes, well at least two classes: 1. People who seem to think the virus is just another flu and once we find a vaccine, all will return to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday or pre-pandemic time you mark your calendar as before the pandemic hit, which of course depends upon where on the earth you are located). 2. People who seem to think the virus has changed us and there will never be going back to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday...) I suspect the Americans of the neo-conservative persuasion who have been motivated to protest health order social distancing believe that not only this is a conspiracy to control fredom-loving people, but that we should return to Christmas 2019 as soon as possible, they are of Cohort 1. I think Cohort 2 are going to be people who take in the facts and the data and are actively attempting to sort out where do we go from here. I feel confident you are in Cohort 2, as ar most people on this list. Now, as Carol M has pointed out, in a lot of ways our discussion about online learning is a first world concern, for those who have an internet connection that is ubiquitous not only at home, but at school, work, on the bus, on planes, in cafes, and other public gathering spaces, like city halls, or town squares. That's another reason why it's hard to take Klein seriously, in terms of *tone*. I recall reading something from George Lakoff when he indicates that there is a liberal stance that seems to believe that if one objects loudly enough with "sky is falling" rhetoric and then feed out various data, that using this strategy the audience will become motivated to protest in the streets, write letters to congress, run for office, or whatever civil action must be done, and with alacrity. It doesn't work. I do not think being against anything ever "works." I think only being for something works. Let's look at Klein's article as an example. If she were to be rhetorically successful she would outline the problem she identifies (Mr. Schmidt goes to Washington), but instead of all that is wrong, talk about what can be right. Not to say she should agree with Mr. Schmidt and his ways. I feel her article could be a lot heavier on what works with education and how to enhance that further. She does mention how money should b used more for school nurses, smaller classrooms, etc. This is where she could have expanded beautifully into a viable solution to spark everyone's imaginations. But she didn't do that. She is more motivated it seems to mark Mr. Schmidt and his technological minions to masterminding a New World Order that will steal our souls and tether us to the Matrix from now until the end of time. I also feel she would have been more conducive to discourse by writing an open letter to Cuomo and Schmidt, and to invite a response. This is also leading by example to cultivate democratic processes that are near and dear to all of us. Instead she "otherfies" them, and this is also not useful. And I am not saying that as a stance to defend Mr. Schmidt or Gov Cuomo, in any way. So back to your question, I do not think that there is any way we will be extricated from this reality of COVID 19. We will have to pick our stones across the river carefully so that none of us slips and is carried down the rapids. I feel it is more useful to say we are a family of one kind, and all of us have to stay together to make it across. And that all of us deserves a life jacket as a measure of survival because not all of us will get to the other side without getting wet, or falling in. The tension between CEOs and their contempt for the slow-food of democracy is well known. If only they could persuade all of us to eat fast food, then they could take over the world as the next McDonalds, in terms of technological vision, whatever a McDonalds would look like on a screen, as an app, whathaveyou. Unfortunately what seems to elude folks who have not worked in tech, or those who see tech as just another new Ford in the garage, is that technology is always in flux. There is always development of new hardware that needs new software written to use it, so there is a double-quicksand of events upon which technology is founded (and funded) upon. That's what Moore's Law is about. Technology in order to "be itself" must always move fleetingly, like the shark must to breathe. Technology will never be able to last the halls of government. For that reason, any rendition of technology in government (and school systems for that matter) will be like bad combovers that are meant to convince us that we are now more attractive and appealing (not meaning to offend those who live by their combovers...) Where I feel technology could best serve us is to help create grassroots democracy tools, to support what we know is possible and could even threaten the basis for representative democracy and bring it closer to a straight agora democracy. Some might call this anarchy, and I could argue along the lines of David Graeber that anarchy is a more pure form of democracy practiced in all "primitive" or "ancient" cultures, it's not a perfect fit, and I intend to make that reference loosely. My point is to say there should be what David K calls involution of what government is, to what government was, and to supplant that, or rather what causes those parts to be pushed to the margins is to imagine a government where there is mor connection to agora-like venues where one person speaking in a Zoom-like frame is of equal stature of any other person speaking in the frame. One can sort of imagine this with the Zoom-empowered senate hearings which I watched for a while on the NYT front page. It was really strange to me. I suppose the danger is that we get to hear Sally Mc? from Arizona use her time to blame the Chinese for the virus, etc, for more time that we would like. But that's democracy. So one fallout could be that grade-school kids and their resulting perezhivanie from Zoom-based classrooms, will adopt the tool for political discussions as adults. Might that be a good thing? Maybe. At the same time, do you remember a book that came out in the mid90s called "Silicon Snake Oil"? This is yet another phenomenon of technology, that people oozing charisma will claw their way to the microphone and pitch an idea about the next vaporware, who will then make unsubstantiated promises and claims directed to feed our fantasies and dreams, and who will then abscond with all the money, only to request not to look at the man behind the green curtain, or if pulled by the ear into a senate hearing will say "I thought it was a good idea at the time." etc. I think that is the view of Klein about all technology, and there are merits in that, but there are also other ways to think about it. This article about Marc Benioff in Wired recently discusses about the social entrepreneurship of his wealth: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.wired.com/story/gospel-of-wealth-according-to-marc-benioff/__;!!Mih3wA!W9Pa_mGEDpoY5Vk-N6zPxD1nHx-wR1gWU-rH4XCDMGLmMWDHVa14H0RON5jAjFtlSZrCog$ Who by they way now owns the magazine Time, the way Jeff Bezos bought the WaPo, and Lauren Jobs bought The Altlantic, and Pierre Omidyar funded The Intercept. I do invite, as much as you can stomach, anyway, for any educators or other members of our vibrant list to make regular reading of Wired Magazine, which is a far more interesting read on technology than something like Fast Company. I encourage this reading, if only to know the enemy, as it were. Wired articles are far more nuanced and sophisticated than when the magazine first got off the ground in the early 90s. I find reading it helps to connect some dots for those who do not consume technology culture all the time. Just pick and choose what you are curious about. We must become familiar with the vernacular of technology if we want a hand in the game of how it plays in education, our stomping grounds. This will require effort on our part. That is not to say we must adopt all the shiny new toys. But we can be like a Consumer Report for education, and evaluate and measure the good the bad and the ugly of technology and its use in the edu sphere. We cannot sit on our laurels and wait for someone else to decide for us how technology will be deployed. That stance is what the mythology of inevitable technology rests and self-perpetuates. We must be more tech literate, and we must be the first to coin words and how they manifest in edu venues. What works what doesn't. I don't see any other way to fight back and to keep control of the educational narrative, where of course we want to hardwire zopeds, manifest and lead critical and nourishing perezhivanie, and model by example sterling mediated learning experiences for students and teachers. What other projects can there be? For me, this is "fighting back" because it makes the sort of shark-like entrepreneur recede for a time (as they will always be looking for a way into edu's tax coffers), because we are successful getting education right. I do not accept that entreprenuership is what took the sanctity from teaching and learning. But that's an argument to be made. I feel it is only one side of the argument. Once I had an male acquaintance tell me that one reason women are in inferior roles is because they let this happen to them. As you might imagine, I had a real hard time with that argument and I had to clench my jaw to now spew various vitriol upon him. But after I thought about it, in a narrow sense he is not wrong because not it is true that enough women in history identified the value to struggle for rights even if they would not see equality in their own lifetimes. There are many explanations for why that did not happen, that are not facile to depict. But then I also had to think of how much women's struggles have succeeded because they did decide to not let this happen to them anymore. But now women are learning in the US, anyway, that nothing fought for is a permanent fixture, and so we must become resigned to the perpetual struggle for equality, as all marginalized people must. So now I direct this to our context of education in the venue of online learning. This is not an easy question, and it is not intended to trivialize the work and efforts of many on this list, but it is instead a question of inner reflection, or a taking of inventory of one's own life: How much has each of you done to take measure and fight for meaningful education in the classroom? Could you have done more? Can you do more? Then the same for asking yourself how have you integrated technology appropriately into your learning methods and general perezhivanie. I hope this might provide some further food for thought concerning preservation on the sanctity of learning and instruction in the classroom. So all this is to reply to you Tom, that in short, the nefarious They can only take control if we let them. Kind regards, Annalisa ps please excuse all typos, which are all made on my own. ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 11:26 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hi Annalisa Thank you for providing the details of your deep and committed background in distance / online learning. Mine is obviously shallow, which must have triggered you and 'Robsub' somewhat. But my questioning is in the newer context of the Covid19 threats to global society and the solutions being sought to extricate us from them. Governor Cuomo's conversation with Schmidt to examine solutions to the problems of present coping and future emergence from the pandemic is understandable. Two persons with power and a need to act, discuss what technology (in its widest hard- and software aspects) has to offer. In a democracy we can assess the solutions they propose and shape them to what we know to be as near to optimal for our society as possible. Your assertion of the efficacy of our agency which Klein seems to deny, with her politico-economic caveats. Schmidt has an evangelism for the potential of technology, but expressed with such restraint - he's no zealot. He also, in the video of the ECNY conversation with Marie-Josee Kravis, sees the lack of 'simplicity' in the three-tier democratic system of the US. He is a CEO with an organisation geared to problem-analysis, solution choices, and operational capability which can be put into action without delaying debate. He expressed no hostility to 'democracy' but as he said, it does not work simply. Klein reminds us to be wary if not alarmed, not because she is despairing (I believe), but because that direct entrepreneurial drive has profit making as its unavoidable aim. Whatever Schmidt's humanistic feelings, if profit doesn't result from his and his companies actions, they will not survive. That competitive drive is also present in his aspirations for international dominance (see his remarks on the rise of China's technology). So far, the sort of distance / online learning you have worked on, has been nested in the context of family and (normal) school life. That normality had implicit in it human values, customs and structures, whatever differences of class, race, gender and culture were present. The melding of state and enterprise in a newly-developing novel (5G?)high-tech 'solution' to mediating education presents a situation which need to be examined I believe. And my query, in that 'Kleinian' context was looking for answers from those, like yourself, with wide experience of previous technological 'answers' and their implications for the results within the learner. I affirm, along with you, the irrepressible resistance and sheer cantankerousness we humans bring to unjust situations. But such fighting back will often be unsuccessful in its aims, when the need to reduce labour time with new technology is driving events - Luddism and machine looms? Our human drive to change and adapt, our use of our agency to create or alter our lives must not be suppressed. But what Klein is reminding us of is just how tilted is the balance of power - the power of the state and behind it, the drive from the vast corporate world, for profit. Our agency is so often undone by the arbitrary intervention of those forces. Those are the forces which have destroyed what you name the 'sanctity' of teaching and learning. I would name it the basic need for those goals, but we share it. With the need to re-invigorate just such a precious resource, we will continue to fight like hell. Despite their mere humanness, corporations and states at present have greater knowledge and power than 'mere' citizens. My intervention in xmca discussion was really to say "They're looking to take even more control of daily life. Within academia, you can analyse how they are making such changes happen and continue to alert the rest of us, if you fear the consequences of their changes." Best wishes Tom On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 22:29, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hi Tom, May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed by SL's prospects. In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of associations of place with learning. In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and constrain learning to books. We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of learning. I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged learning venues . Not with grade school. I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!W9Pa_mGEDpoY5Vk-N6zPxD1nHx-wR1gWU-rH4XCDMGLmMWDHVa14H0RON5jAjFv8WyPqOQ$ It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be integrated with existing models. If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and surveillance is a constructive combination. There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and introspection, I will never accept that reality. To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers and pins." I just do not believe this narrative. We cannot give up. Is there a fight ahead? Yes. Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most definitely, yes. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hello Annalisa Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. * What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such learning takes place?'. * What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes for the perezhivanie of the learner, which shapes her social being and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. Kind regards Tom On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello Tom, Thank you for posting the link. I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended into our lives. I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control the world. Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to deliberate the way forward. As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency to decide how to use our tools. Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply does not hold water for me. I hope this might be a little encouraging. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hello Tom Richardson This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat Project" that has just finished its planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human development, and theories of "Development in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most members of this discussion over the years, is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about for 100 years. Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing working models of effective practices that do NOT assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. Thanks for asking. mike On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson > wrote: Greetings Xmca-ers I would like to raise a question. In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening recently: "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks after that article appeared, he described the ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the country had been forced to cobble together during this public health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!W9Pa_mGEDpoY5Vk-N6zPxD1nHx-wR1gWU-rH4XCDMGLmMWDHVa14H0RON5jAjFt6PKx0rw$ Just asking Tom Richardson Middlesbrough UK -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200528/794d3b33/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Wed May 27 19:10:33 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 02:10:33 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? In-Reply-To: References: < CY4PR0701MB37770A7BD4B3613E52533B4BC1B60@CY4PR0701MB3777.namprd07.prod.outl ook.com> <78D4E5A7-6661-4F59-A41F-A1 FD92995FD6@gmail.com> <29749880-98FE-47D7-84E1-841BB6B9B6C5@gmail.com> <32E7CCCD-69BC-4AB8 -AC9A-E1A8F581835C@gmail.com> , Message-ID: Hi Rein and everyone 2, Given what I know about neurodiversity and plasticity, I would agree whole-brainly with you. My take on the brain is that we all start with a particular mass at the start, and that there are general areas that tend to do certain kinds of functions that seem to cross all populations approximately. Although I've not kept on with the science lately, Damasio has done one good thing of many, and that is to demolish the "right-brain|left-brain" paradigm, which I've always had difficulty with, and actually lost a friend who was so invested in this mythology of the brain. Go figure. Some people are truly locked in and invested in their brain models. I have the take that we each grow our own brains and likely have some influence, based upon the experiences we choose to expose ourselves to and those experiences that choose to expose themselves to us. 50% fate/50% free will, as it were. This would provide room for your argument about culture. But the value of Damsio's work is that it projects to shining a light on the fallacy of Descartes dualism, which is still informing much about how we think about ourselves and thinking. That there is no taking into account the perceptions we have and how they make us feel, that we may not have objective awareness of because their genesis is in our autonomic nervous system, something Descartes had no clue about, and which has two parts, the sympathetic and the parasympathetic systems. I hope I wrote that right. Here is also the wikipage for Damasio. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Damasio__;!!Mih3wA!SnEsy86iYptlblabkwDJfUQrICcO-Smu9OT-rC-JE6ySTZMtNXBUEefxfo3uhau-pEirYg$ I'd say that if there is anything to put Damasio upon our shoulders and carry him in the streets in a confetti parade, it is that he assisted in breaking the model of mind/body split, if that makes any sense. Or did he glue mind and body back together again? Sorry to mix my metaphor. He might not have the specifics down, but acknowledging somatic thinking is critical in showing that there are other forms of cognizing, using our entire bodies for thinking. There is as well thinking with others, with tools, etc too which is why I like Edwin Hutchin's model of distributed cognition (see Cognition in the Wild 1995, another great book, and I'd say is his masterpiece). The model I sense that the steel and concrete realists live by is that thought happens first and then it generates feeling, and thatn one is supposed to "be objective" by dismissing the emotions that arise from the thinking, like a shopping list with items being checked off. I consider that the model of feeling first and then understanding why we feel the way we do and then basing that "data" in our decision making, makes a lot more sense and that this is more accurate in depicting objective thinking, but this model isn't necessarily "rational" because there is intuition in play in the process as well. This weighing and doubting is part of being objective. Descartes' reasoning is all about dividing things to the smallest parts in order to understand them, like a mathematical proof. This does nothing for looking at whole pictures, or units for analysis for that matter. I'm not sure that Damasio is so specific about brain function, but I understand why it's problematic for you. To use an analogy, it's like saying New Yorkers speak fast and Texans speak slowly. That's not to say that there are no slow-speaking New Yorkers, or fast-talking Texans. It's a general rule of thumb, not definitive. To throw a wrench in all this, I do not believe that consciousness is in the brain, as an effect, like the hum of the machine), My model for consciousness is that it pervades the universe, and all sentient beings reflect it more 1:1 than, say, an inert rock. This absolute conscious-awareness is not human, but we reflect it in our human way, and grass in it grass way, cats in their cat-way, etc, because of biological limitations and realities. This also affords the possibility of other lifeforms in the universe, and doesn't limit our unique human-consciousness ( or rather uniquely human "reflective" qualities) to our evolutionary histories. Other forms of consciousness can arise and there can be pluralities of existences. But that might be too far out for this list, but I can justify this model. I find it exceptionally relevant that we call mirror neurons "mirror neurons." The model that I accept contends where consciousness "comes from". That's not to say that any model like Damasio's would fail in my worldview, the biological models can remain the same. Even Vygotsky's models may remain intact. My model explains why we can't locate it and why we haven't been able to create spontaneous creatures with consciousness with any success. What I mean when I say that, is that we must always borrow from already established genetic materials. I can't make oatmeal sentient by sprinkling special sentient sugar on it. (try to say THAT 10 times fast!) Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Rein Raud Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 12:08 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hi, I have to say I?ve found Damasio rather frustrating. Like so many others he seems to assume that it is a proven fact that brain processes cause mental phenomena while remaining unaffected by them, and, moreover, that certain neural correlates exist of particular elements of what goes on in our consciousness. This is indeed a widespread belief, but as far as I know it has not actually been sustained by neuroscience. Of course, the brain is related to conscious activity, and different areas of the brain are involved in different types of activities. But there is neither an overall coordinating centre in the brain, to which ?maps? or ?representations? would be presented for decision-making, nor are separate subsystems of the brain able to produce mental phenomena without input from other systems (which are not even limited to the brain). Also, it seems to me Damasio assumes that all people, regardless of culture, have the same emotional machinery at work in their brains. This, as I understand, has been proved false, as exposure to different ways of culturally conceptualizing emotions, ?emotional vocabularies?, so to speak, have a significant role in how people process their emotional responses to the environment. Tim Lewens has a chapter on this in ?Cultural Evolution?. (I am not on the side of the ?steel and concrete? realists here, from where I stand, it is Damasio who is closer to their camp.) All the best to everyone, Rein On 27 May 2020, at 19:48, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hi Tom, Henry, and VO's, I'm glad that Henry was able to be of some comfort to your concerns Tom. I might also encourage you to read "Betraying Spinoza: The Renegade Jew Who Gave Us Modernity" (2009) by Rebecca Goldstein, as well as "Descartes' Error: Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain" (1995) by Antonio Damasio. Betraying Spinoza is one of my favorite books ever. The reason that I find Damasio so important in brain research is that he has been able to ascertain that we require our feelings first in order to reason. It's not that other way around, as much as steel and concrete rationalists want to believe. Damasio was able to ascertain this based upon a patient of his who suffered a brain injury to the part of the brain that we understand necessary for feelings. To direct a comment to Henry, I think the difference between emotion and feeling as you indicate does have distinctions, and thinking out loud, it is that emotions have something to do with the limbic system, while feelings arise from executive functions (hence as you say the narratives we have about ourselves). Another great historical account about Spinoza is "The Courtier and the Heretic" (2007) by Matthew Stewart, which focuses upon the lives of Leibniz and Spinoza and an account of their only meeting. It's a great page turner. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of HENRY SHONERD > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 10:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Glad it was helpful, Tom:) On May 27, 2020, at 3:24 AM, Tom Richardson > wrote: Good Morning Henry Your confusions and eventual clarity explain and help a great deal, mirroring my own as I read Damasio's account. I shall dig further with gratitude to you. Best Tom [https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://drive.google.com/uc?id=0B0zqMvyA6XEhZkdKSUk5eUxRUnNkbWZFdHlaRlpJci1fQ1lJ&export=download__;!!Mih3wA!SnEsy86iYptlblabkwDJfUQrICcO-Smu9OT-rC-JE6ySTZMtNXBUEefxfo3uhasmftCa-Q$ ] BoWen On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 22:29, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: Hi Tom, No problem enabling your laziness with my shallow reading of Spinzoa. I confess that I have read nothing directly from Spinoza, but have read about his philosphy and about his life. It?s been a while since I read Looking for Spinoza: Joy Sorrow and the Feeling Brain. I am looking at the book now and am amazed with how much highlighting there is and how little of it I remember in detail. What got me into it was the distinction between emotions and feelings. Damasio is a neuroscientist, and the book are full of the neural correlates of affective states, being the ?easy? problem of consciousness. The ?hard? problem of explaining the reason any arrangements at all of matter can possibly result in consciousness is not explained. What got me into it was the distinction between emotions and feelings. Damasio associates emotions (fear, anger, surprise, disgust, sadness and happiness) with primal parts of the brain connected to homeostasis of the organism. Emotions are evoked prior to the more narrative experience of feelings. To tell the truth, I am still not entirely clear on the distinction, largely because he explains the difference through case studies of people who have suffered damage to different parts of the brain, losing me. Maybe I got it at the time, but looking through the book now, it?s not so clear. One interesting thing is that we can have social emotions, which means homeostasis is not just internal to the human organism. Anyway, the book is worth digging through. Hope that helps a little. Whew! Henry On May 26, 2020, at 1:31 PM, Tom Richardson > wrote: Hi Henry Thank you for your thoughtful, fact full reply. It would save me continuing to plough through Damasio's well-written but fairly lengthy book 'Looking for Spinoza', if you were to send me a brief personal summary of what he means intellectually for you - (or am I being lazy?) - since it is always illuminating to understand what our thinkers mean to/for our peers. I have not broached Baruch S's work for myself. Best wishes Tom On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 17:09, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: Hi Tom, Thank you for your rich, well-thought-out response to my question. And thank you for recognizing that I wanted it to be generous. Perhaps a quibble is that you associate the first stage of Stalinist rule as capitalist, rather than industrial, as I understand it. I think that?s important. Stalin?s top-down planning had the same hall marks as Mao?s, Castro?s and the current North Korean leader. I appreciate your optimism that any system devised by humans can create human thriving that is not destructive of of humanity itself. We seem to have boxed ourselves into a corner by destroying our niche, the world. COVID-19 and climate change, IMHO, we are all, indvidually and collectively complicit. I hope that we can get beyond romanticism and cynicism in meeting our fate. I think that Vygotsky and Spinoza represent what can come of wrestling with open hearts and clear thinking with our condition. Henry On May 26, 2020, at 3:09 AM, Tom Richardson > wrote: Good Morning (GMT+1) Henry I'm touched by your mail today. My life experience does not include such practical engagement as yours, with any of the major social disruptions / attempts at new organisation, of the C20. It seems dismissively facile to criticise amazing historic re-organisations of social life like the Cuban Revolution, but it is necessary. Otherwise the same mistakes will happen again and again. The political strand which I accept as most accurately analysing historical and current reality characterises the liberation movements (particularities, differences, I'm ignoring for sake of quick explanation) post 1900, as nationalist, and mostly state socialist/capitalist. IE they are top-down, state directed anti-imperialist/colonialist movements. The self-organisation and free association of the producers that is the essence of communist organisation is absent. Often there is some commitment to a Kautskyan / Stalinist "two stage theory", requiring full capitalist development to prepare the ground for the next step of proletarian rule - eg in the South African struggle. We can see where that has led so far. But the analysts I accept, posit that socialism in one country cannot be created nor sustained while the basis of total global social reproduction is the money based economy, taken forward by the capital-labour relationship of commodity production - the so-called 'free market' whose anarchy ensures an absence of any organised relationship to global human needs, since it is driven by the value-based circulation of commodities dominating all global production. The freedom is that of the individual / joint-stock company in the pursuit of surplus value. And, yes, Marx, does provide an analysis of "money" which indicates how a future system of production would/could not be based on the use of money and therefore wages. There is so much literature about this to be investigated, (much of it written by US authors, extraordinarily, given the Chicago School and the legacy of McCarthy). I started with Engels 'Socialism, Utopian and Scientific' which explained in a way that my pro-market, individualist history teacher could not, why the Anti-Corn Law League had 'won' and the Chartists had failed. Anyway, I am only recycling, from my own limited understanding, the sort of analysis that the original authors of the literature I value provide in overwhelming but convincing detail. While the way forward towards a future that communists see as essential if the planet is not to be destroyed, or at least human life on it, is not in prospect as far as any realist can foresee, at present, the reality of the Barbarism that Capital brings (together with the technology necessary for the possibility of real change), is clear every moment in our lives. Human resistance and creative answers to apparently insoluble problems, and the reality that the working class has nothing to gain that sustains real fulfilling human life from capital's continuation, sustain my knowledge that my commitment to moving beyond capitalism, is both essential and realistic. I trust that this attempted answer to your generous question makes sufficient sense . Best wishes Tom On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 22:26, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: Hi Tom, What is it about ?free market economies? is the cause of wage slavery? Is there at least some jiggering of the market that could end ?destructive anarchy?? Do we do away with money? And I am serious here. I take it that capitalism is the problem, not the market, or money. I was in the doctoral program in economics at UC Berkeley during the late 60s. My concentrations were comparative economic systems and economic planning. I dropped out after only getting a masters degree in economics there, and went to Cuba to cut sugar cane with the Venceremos Brigade. I felt strongly Che?s call to make the New Man (though women were there too, and check out the film ?Lucia?) of that era, but I think that central planning (Castro?) of the Cuban economy had a destructive and anarchic side. Castro apologized for his mistakes during the year of 10 million tons of sugar cane production, but the damage was done. Cuba has been a shining light in some ways for me and others, not least the health care workers, the original Doctors Without Borders, that beautifully exemplify the new human. So, really, what do we replace markets and money with? Or is it the ?free? part that?s the rub. Henry On May 25, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Tom Richardson > wrote: Hello Annalisa "All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is:" Since I have suggested neither of the alternatives you state as the only way forward, it would surely invalidate your further argument. But I must admit that the idea of thirty thousand working class families and then some, organising to change the wage-slavery employment system that they are exploited by, would be a great idea. Here's to that day, as the freely associated producers of our social life organise to end the destructive anarchy of our present free-market economies. Regards Tom On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 19:58, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hi Tom and others, I agree that Capitalism is bad, and that it causes wealth and poverty in extremes. Which then creates social injustices that would be much lessened with less economic inequality. I do not think that I ever said (did I?) to ignore the traditional power structures. I said that every day we negotiate the power structures. And when we decide it's not working we can create change. That possibility is always an option, but it demands diligence, discipline, and discovery. All that I figure is possible from the worldview you frame is: 1. it's futile. Give up. The structures will always be against us. Settle in to your given hand of bad fortune. 2. grab a gun and kill as many people sitting in seats of power (which means the chair of power remains to be replaced by someone else). Forgive me if I reject both those options. As I said, perhaps in another post, the liberal position of citing data and objecting to the existence of that data, isn't going to make power structures change. What would make change is for those 15K-30K families to organize and among themselves decide how and what they can do to make their lot better. It's called organizing. Civil disobedience works because it is civil. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > Sent: Monday, May 25, 2020 3:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hi Annalisa Good Morning - just a correction to figures about poverty in our town - I should have been more careful,; fortunately the figures from memory were an underestimate rather than an exaggeration: Almost 30,000 children are living in poverty across Teesside - and half are from working families. And stark new statistics reveal that the picture is worst in central Middlesbrough - as hyper-local, official Government data reveals three quarters of all kids in one neighbourhood are living below the breadline. Regards Tom [https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://drive.google.com/uc?id=0B0zqMvyA6XEhZkdKSUk5eUxRUnNkbWZFdHlaRlpJci1fQ1lJ&export=download__;!!Mih3wA!SnEsy86iYptlblabkwDJfUQrICcO-Smu9OT-rC-JE6ySTZMtNXBUEefxfo3uhasmftCa-Q$ ] BoWen On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 22:17, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Alas, hello again Tom (& VO's), While I accept your assessment of our differences in approaches and understandings, I do not see that it is obvious that there is no meeting point. For example, innovation exists in science and in art, in business it is entrepreneurship. I believe that there are good things that come from business entrepreneurship, and there are bad things too. We love that art and science are innovative, when they are, but there can be failings there too. The captains of industry who believe they are self-made men, and who believe that anyone who decides for oneself being on the assembly line of the manufacturing floor is only a dumb pawn in a larger game, would be in my estimation the worst that kind of human that entrepreneurship generates. Elon Musk is one example, perhaps. As much as I likely would not want Elon Musk over for dinner, I can admire that he has been able to steward the creation of an electric car in the midst of a sleepwalking auto industry that cannot envision automobiles without a gas-eating combustible engine. At the same time what he gives he takes away: I'm not sure that I can ever get on board a space rocket to inhabit Mars. I actually object to that project because as long as we haven't worked out how to feed everyone on this earthship, we should not be escaping it by polluting another planet, even if, as Carl Sagan told us, there are billions and billions of them out there. "They" in the form of (other they)'s do not have power unless we give them that power. That power is always up for debate every minute, every day, every year. Given that there are now 38 million unemployed in the US (I can't name the numbers elsewhere and I'm sorry about that), that's like the entire population of California being on the dole. It is a significant number, and it may be that many of those people start their own businesses, not because of education or desire, but of necessity. Many of the young and unemployed are educated. That could be a combustible cocktail, depending upon their self-awareness and outward worldview. One strange article in NYT described a scene designer who has been out of work since the health order shutdown, and hasn't received any unemployment yet because she filed in New Jersey, while her partner did because he filed in New York. Then she got an offer to work in a company who is making ... wait for it.... facemasks, so now she is toiling over a machine, sewing facemasks. I don't think I could live in that situation because of the stark irony, if that is a just word for that. I mourn the loss of her creativity, but I hope it is temporary. Now out of necessity, she's had to travel that path. So I can agree with you that because of the government order to shut down business, and because a company who hired her decided to make facemasks, because what other ingenious product would or could one manufacture right now? they have shaped her working life. Have they shaped her social life, though. I mean completely? She still has her contacts on her iPhone, she likely returns home to her partner to cook dinner and search for more work. Her desires and dreams are likely impacted, but has she completely given up? Should she? I am not pro-revolution, only because they create rivers of blood in streets, etc. I'm more of the mind that incremental choices can together create a tipping point of social change. For example, consider the tiny house movement. Or how young people will share resources, or reevaluate buying things, or what they eat. People make the best lemonade only with the best lemons. There is going to have to be a reckoning of having so many unemployed people. It can't be ignored. To just pretend that everyone will be happy with a lower wage job (lower than when the pandemic hit), is only going to drive people to desperate measures. The country will want to put people to work and this could be an opportunity for collective change, for creating meaningful jobs. Because who wants a civil war. So there will have to be some sort of appeasement for the social reality that people must have their basic needs met. The temporary stimulus is a lifeline, but the real economic difficulties will start when people start to return to work, and there are less jobs with the result being there is less money circulating in the economy overall. With interest rates so low, and pumping more money into the economy is only going to raise the prices of things, possibly wages, but not the buying power. People will cut bait from the lives they once had, and simplify. Moving to less crowded cities and towns, returning to live with parents. Perhaps creating cooperatives. One area for discovery with so much time on one's hands is handcrafting. I think there will be a blooming of new businesses that incorporate *real* labor. This may also usher in more vocational training programs. One article I read today discussed the eating of meat, and how it is a destructive social practice including its impact on climate change. Largely that industry depends upon of automation, and now with slaughterhouses being virus hotspots, do you want to trust that the meat you buy is not tainted with COVID? Or that you are forcing a worker into an unsafe work environment and catch the virus? If people were decide to stop eating meat, or reduce even its consumption because it's too expensive, and if the government stops giving subsidies to these agro-corporations, then these polluting companies will fail. That would be great news. Then the writer pointed out that if we returned to diets higher in plant-based food, that would increase demand for real farms, real entrepreneurship and generate jobs, as it takes more people to grow vegetables, than it does to raise pigs or chickens. We would also become healthier as a population. There is already a network of farmer's markets for local produce, so it may mean a growth in that area. I suppose what I'm trying to say is I do not think it is so cut and dried that we are subject to the worst forever. I think with so much time on our hands people are free to organize and decide to help one another in mutual aid. We do not have to rely on traditional power structures, and we do not have to resort to bloody revolutions. Depending upon what you are looking for in life, there is a third way arising. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 4:24 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hello once more Annalisa Our difference of approach to and understanding of the modern state and the production of social life obviously admits of no meeting point as far as I read your astonishingly wide-ranging and impassioned response. Without the simplicity of my reply intending to signal a facile sarcasm, I must bluntly state that I begin from the acceptance that nefarious or not, 'They', in the sense of government and corporations, do have the power to control and shape the organisation of social life. We can, if enough socio-political pressure can be brought to bear through social movements, rebellions, revolts, shift certain aspects of that fashioning of our lives. But at present, the relationship of wage slavery imposed by Capital ,and the society shaped by that relationship, are dominant throughout the life of our planet. Sad at such an impasse, since we both wish the best for humanity Tom On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 21:46, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hi Tom, and VO's of XMCA Concerning your questions about our new normal now that COVID19 is with us and here to stay, I think your guess is as good as anyone's. I am not sure if we as humans have ever been burdened with such an event as this, and at the same time are able to watch the unfolding events and respond (or not respond if you are a stable genius) quickly from the feedback of data, news, anecdotes, and other forms of perception of how the virus is impacting us. What is worth remembering as well, is that epidemiologists have been warning us for decades that a pandemic was a clear an present danger to the way we live and negotiate the modern world. We see in sensurround how right they were. As I consider your question, I have to think that people mow might be sorted into two classes, well at least two classes: 1. People who seem to think the virus is just another flu and once we find a vaccine, all will return to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday or pre-pandemic time you mark your calendar as before the pandemic hit, which of course depends upon where on the earth you are located). 2. People who seem to think the virus has changed us and there will never be going back to Christmas 2019 (or whatever December Holiday...) I suspect the Americans of the neo-conservative persuasion who have been motivated to protest health order social distancing believe that not only this is a conspiracy to control fredom-loving people, but that we should return to Christmas 2019 as soon as possible, they are of Cohort 1. I think Cohort 2 are going to be people who take in the facts and the data and are actively attempting to sort out where do we go from here. I feel confident you are in Cohort 2, as ar most people on this list. Now, as Carol M has pointed out, in a lot of ways our discussion about online learning is a first world concern, for those who have an internet connection that is ubiquitous not only at home, but at school, work, on the bus, on planes, in cafes, and other public gathering spaces, like city halls, or town squares. That's another reason why it's hard to take Klein seriously, in terms of *tone*. I recall reading something from George Lakoff when he indicates that there is a liberal stance that seems to believe that if one objects loudly enough with "sky is falling" rhetoric and then feed out various data, that using this strategy the audience will become motivated to protest in the streets, write letters to congress, run for office, or whatever civil action must be done, and with alacrity. It doesn't work. I do not think being against anything ever "works." I think only being for something works. Let's look at Klein's article as an example. If she were to be rhetorically successful she would outline the problem she identifies (Mr. Schmidt goes to Washington), but instead of all that is wrong, talk about what can be right. Not to say she should agree with Mr. Schmidt and his ways. I feel her article could be a lot heavier on what works with education and how to enhance that further. She does mention how money should b used more for school nurses, smaller classrooms, etc. This is where she could have expanded beautifully into a viable solution to spark everyone's imaginations. But she didn't do that. She is more motivated it seems to mark Mr. Schmidt and his technological minions to masterminding a New World Order that will steal our souls and tether us to the Matrix from now until the end of time. I also feel she would have been more conducive to discourse by writing an open letter to Cuomo and Schmidt, and to invite a response. This is also leading by example to cultivate democratic processes that are near and dear to all of us. Instead she "otherfies" them, and this is also not useful. And I am not saying that as a stance to defend Mr. Schmidt or Gov Cuomo, in any way. So back to your question, I do not think that there is any way we will be extricated from this reality of COVID 19. We will have to pick our stones across the river carefully so that none of us slips and is carried down the rapids. I feel it is more useful to say we are a family of one kind, and all of us have to stay together to make it across. And that all of us deserves a life jacket as a measure of survival because not all of us will get to the other side without getting wet, or falling in. The tension between CEOs and their contempt for the slow-food of democracy is well known. If only they could persuade all of us to eat fast food, then they could take over the world as the next McDonalds, in terms of technological vision, whatever a McDonalds would look like on a screen, as an app, whathaveyou. Unfortunately what seems to elude folks who have not worked in tech, or those who see tech as just another new Ford in the garage, is that technology is always in flux. There is always development of new hardware that needs new software written to use it, so there is a double-quicksand of events upon which technology is founded (and funded) upon. That's what Moore's Law is about. Technology in order to "be itself" must always move fleetingly, like the shark must to breathe. Technology will never be able to last the halls of government. For that reason, any rendition of technology in government (and school systems for that matter) will be like bad combovers that are meant to convince us that we are now more attractive and appealing (not meaning to offend those who live by their combovers...) Where I feel technology could best serve us is to help create grassroots democracy tools, to support what we know is possible and could even threaten the basis for representative democracy and bring it closer to a straight agora democracy. Some might call this anarchy, and I could argue along the lines of David Graeber that anarchy is a more pure form of democracy practiced in all "primitive" or "ancient" cultures, it's not a perfect fit, and I intend to make that reference loosely. My point is to say there should be what David K calls involution of what government is, to what government was, and to supplant that, or rather what causes those parts to be pushed to the margins is to imagine a government where there is mor connection to agora-like venues where one person speaking in a Zoom-like frame is of equal stature of any other person speaking in the frame. One can sort of imagine this with the Zoom-empowered senate hearings which I watched for a while on the NYT front page. It was really strange to me. I suppose the danger is that we get to hear Sally Mc? from Arizona use her time to blame the Chinese for the virus, etc, for more time that we would like. But that's democracy. So one fallout could be that grade-school kids and their resulting perezhivanie from Zoom-based classrooms, will adopt the tool for political discussions as adults. Might that be a good thing? Maybe. At the same time, do you remember a book that came out in the mid90s called "Silicon Snake Oil"? This is yet another phenomenon of technology, that people oozing charisma will claw their way to the microphone and pitch an idea about the next vaporware, who will then make unsubstantiated promises and claims directed to feed our fantasies and dreams, and who will then abscond with all the money, only to request not to look at the man behind the green curtain, or if pulled by the ear into a senate hearing will say "I thought it was a good idea at the time." etc. I think that is the view of Klein about all technology, and there are merits in that, but there are also other ways to think about it. This article about Marc Benioff in Wired recently discusses about the social entrepreneurship of his wealth:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.wired.com/story/gospel-of-wealth-according-to-marc-benioff/__;!!Mih3wA!SnEsy86iYptlblabkwDJfUQrICcO-Smu9OT-rC-JE6ySTZMtNXBUEefxfo3uhatiwlR11g$ Who by they way now owns the magazine Time, the way Jeff Bezos bought the WaPo, and Lauren Jobs bought The Altlantic, and Pierre Omidyar funded The Intercept. I do invite, as much as you can stomach, anyway, for any educators or other members of our vibrant list to make regular reading of Wired Magazine, which is a far more interesting read on technology than something like Fast Company. I encourage this reading, if only to know the enemy, as it were. Wired articles are far more nuanced and sophisticated than when the magazine first got off the ground in the early 90s. I find reading it helps to connect some dots for those who do not consume technology culture all the time. Just pick and choose what you are curious about. We must become familiar with the vernacular of technology if we want a hand in the game of how it plays in education, our stomping grounds. This will require effort on our part. That is not to say we must adopt all the shiny new toys. But we can be like a Consumer Report for education, and evaluate and measure the good the bad and the ugly of technology and its use in the edu sphere. We cannot sit on our laurels and wait for someone else to decide for us how technology will be deployed. That stance is what the mythology of inevitable technology rests and self-perpetuates. We must be more tech literate, and we must be the first to coin words and how they manifest in edu venues. What works what doesn't. I don't see any other way to fight back and to keep control of the educational narrative, where of course we want to hardwire zopeds, manifest and lead critical and nourishing perezhivanie, and model by example sterling mediated learning experiences for students and teachers. What other projects can there be? For me, this is "fighting back" because it makes the sort of shark-like entrepreneur recede for a time (as they will always be looking for a way into edu's tax coffers), because we are successful getting education right. I do not accept that entreprenuership is what took the sanctity from teaching and learning. But that's an argument to be made. I feel it is only one side of the argument. Once I had an male acquaintance tell me that one reason women are in inferior roles is because they let this happen to them. As you might imagine, I had a real hard time with that argument and I had to clench my jaw to now spew various vitriol upon him. But after I thought about it, in a narrow sense he is not wrong because not it is true that enough women in history identified the value to struggle for rights even if they would not see equality in their own lifetimes. There are many explanations for why that did not happen, that are not facile to depict. But then I also had to think of how much women's struggles have succeeded because they did decide to not let this happen to them anymore. But now women are learning in the US, anyway, that nothing fought for is a permanent fixture, and so we must become resigned to the perpetual struggle for equality, as all marginalized people must. So now I direct this to our context of education in the venue of online learning. This is not an easy question, and it is not intended to trivialize the work and efforts of many on this list, but it is instead a question of inner reflection, or a taking of inventory of one's own life: How much has each of you done to take measure and fight for meaningful education in the classroom? Could you have done more? Can you do more? Then the same for asking yourself how have you integrated technology appropriately into your learning methods and general perezhivanie. I hope this might provide some further food for thought concerning preservation on the sanctity of learning and instruction in the classroom. So all this is to reply to you Tom, that in short, the nefarious They can only take control if we let them. Kind regards, Annalisa ps please excuse all typos, which are all made on my own. ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 11:26 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hi Annalisa Thank you for providing the details of your deep and committed background in distance / online learning. Mine is obviously shallow, which must have triggered you and 'Robsub' somewhat. But my questioning is in the newer context of the Covid19 threats to global society and the solutions being sought to extricate us from them. Governor Cuomo's conversation with Schmidt to examine solutions to the problems of present coping and future emergence from the pandemic is understandable. Two persons with power and a need to act, discuss what technology (in its widest hard- and software aspects) has to offer. In a democracy we can assess the solutions they propose and shape them to what we know to be as near to optimal for our society as possible. Your assertion of the efficacy of our agency which Klein seems to deny, with her politico-economic caveats. Schmidt has an evangelism for the potential of technology, but expressed with such restraint - he's no zealot. He also, in the video of the ECNY conversation with Marie-Josee Kravis, sees the lack of 'simplicity' in the three-tier democratic system of the US. He is a CEO with an organisation geared to problem-analysis, solution choices, and operational capability which can be put into action without delaying debate. He expressed no hostility to 'democracy' but as he said, it does not work simply. Klein reminds us to be wary if not alarmed, not because she is despairing (I believe), but because that direct entrepreneurial drive has profit making as its unavoidable aim. Whatever Schmidt's humanistic feelings, if profit doesn't result from his and his companies actions, they will not survive. That competitive drive is also present in his aspirations for international dominance (see his remarks on the rise of China's technology). So far, the sort of distance / online learning you have worked on, has been nested in the context of family and (normal) school life. That normality had implicit in it human values, customs and structures, whatever differences of class, race, gender and culture were present. The melding of state and enterprise in a newly-developing novel (5G?)high-tech 'solution' to mediating education presents a situation which need to be examined I believe. And my query, in that 'Kleinian' context was looking for answers from those, like yourself, with wide experience of previous technological 'answers' and their implications for the results within the learner. I affirm, along with you, the irrepressible resistance and sheer cantankerousness we humans bring to unjust situations. But such fighting back will often be unsuccessful in its aims, when the need to reduce labour time with new technology is driving events - Luddism and machine looms? Our human drive to change and adapt, our use of our agency to create or alter our lives must not be suppressed. But what Klein is reminding us of is just how tilted is the balance of power - the power of the state and behind it, the drive from the vast corporate world, for profit. Our agency is so often undone by the arbitrary intervention of those forces. Those are the forces which have destroyed what you name the 'sanctity' of teaching and learning. I would name it the basic need for those goals, but we share it. With the need to re-invigorate just such a precious resource, we will continue to fight like hell. Despite their mere humanness, corporations and states at present have greater knowledge and power than 'mere' citizens. My intervention in xmca discussion was really to say "They're looking to take even more control of daily life. Within academia, you can analyse how they are making such changes happen and continue to alert the rest of us, if you fear the consequences of their changes." Best wishes Tom On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 22:29, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hi Tom, May I, in turn, thank you for your civil disagreement? ? Online learning is one area of study in my educational background. We looked at Second Life (SL) and tried to create a learning space there, once. I think that there is always room for innovation, but there is always a transaction of what one forfeits for what one gains. I was underwhelmed by SL's prospects. In the heyday of SL, which as a platform is barely in a coma right now, I'd once heard that a medical school created a giant kidney sculpture, that students' avatars could walk around to investigate and discuss with one another how various kidney processes worked. It was a virtual biological fountain in the town square. I'm not sure that this learning context would ever beat out a human anatomy class, but I found the solution interesting. Blackboard was another platform we used, which I detested. It was like looking at the teacher's chalkboard through a slice of swiss cheese. Perhaps it is more "evolved" now. What was interesting about SL is that one could project a sense of place, which we know is helpful for memory and retention. There was a lot of open space for play involved in SL, enough to make it interesting, but it was perhaps far too much work to create viable learning environments. I think what we have to accept (which I feel all experienced educators already know and feel) is that flattening all education to an online learning space of a 2D screen, as may be experienced with grade-schoolers during the pandemic today, is destructive to learning, *because* of associations of place with learning. In a way, online learning venues that we may enjoy as adults, such as the AUP conference on Psychology in Global Crises, is a bit like driving, drinking, and smoking. What I mean is that one must pass a certain age in order to decide if it is good for me or not, or that I have the hand-eye coordination to negotiate (as with driving). Consider recent ZOOMbombing abuses, which would make any parent want to unplug the computer and constrain learning to books. We live in a time where the classroom holds no sanctity whatsoever. We must put the sanctity back into teaching and learning. I still maintain that we are not powerless to debate the ways in which the situations and environments we determine are viable to create contexts of learning. I find the lack of detail in the Klein article is not by accident, but out of convenience. There has been plenty of online learning happening for quite sometime now. But this has largely been in adult or in college-aged learning venues . Not with grade school. I do think that there has been some online tutoring venues for grade-school kids, but I'm not certain how much that has been formally studied. I also wonder what answers homeschooling might contribute as well, although that venue for learning has a decidedly conservative sheen upon it, for all the homesteading mythologies those folk abide in. I would guess that this is form of learning is one that they would welcome, because parents would get to pick and choose what their children learn. I don't think this could ever be construed as a liberal arts education, nor would it deliver new generations of critical thinkers. What I feel may be a part of the pushback against these propositions is childcare, and how parents will require this to provide for their own families. I found this NY opinion piece insightful:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-parenting-burnout.html__;!!Mih3wA!SnEsy86iYptlblabkwDJfUQrICcO-Smu9OT-rC-JE6ySTZMtNXBUEefxfo3uhav3EBpOQw$ It may be we witness in a shakeout for free childcare that it is a right, not a privilege. That would be a huge boon for many. But the pandemic may also show us a new aspect of the validity of classroom education and why we must fight to preserve it. We use it or we lose it. It may usher in more critical discourse about the meaning of the classroom to the child's learning. if only for the attentional affordances that the classroom provides to a cluster of young minds and their teacher. Last, in reply to your, "I cannot grasp what is intended/visualized by the AI/digital experts," may I remind you that Thomas Edison believed that he could turn the classroom upside-down with the invention of film, and that education would be significantly transformed by watching movies. People then worried if that meant there would be no need to learn to read, etc. We see that what Edison visualized was simply not realistic. But is it the case that watching films in a classroom doesn't provide some facet of learning? Yes. But has it supplanted traditional forms of learning? No. If teachers discover there are legitimate technological additions to already successful evidence-based learning environments, that support well-known learning theory, technology can be welcomed if it can be integrated with existing models. If teachers do not find such technology useful, then it's just another way to enrich the pockets of Mr. Schmidt and other technophiles, where money will be spent but the products unused. That would be tragic and wasteful. One of the aspects I do not like about the idea of grade-school online learning environments is how it inures children to surveillance, which may also turn off a great many kids who would prefer wandering backyards, or riding bikes in the park, to play with friends. I don't think learning and surveillance is a constructive combination. There is a lot to consider, and perhaps this is where the alarm is more appropriately felt, because these are new challenges, and there are not yet words to describe what we find wrong with these problems, and so we must better ourselves by searching for the arguments and stances we can unite behind. Perhaps we feel alarmed because we must grapple with an unknown interloper. We are fatigued because our senses are already shredded from what is already difficult about living in a pandemic. This is why I do not feel Klein's tone is helpful to us. It stands upon a mythology that technology is inevitable. After much study and introspection, I will never accept that reality. To listen to Klein is to believe that a town crier were to some and say "They are coming take all our tools and all they will leave us are hammers and pins." I just do not believe this narrative. We cannot give up. Is there a fight ahead? Yes. Should we rally together to protect what needs protecting? Most definitely, yes. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Tom Richardson > Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:31 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hello Annalisa Thank you for your reactions to the Klein article. I agree with almost none of your opinions about the content nor the form. About the capacity of human nature for both heroic altruism and lethal self-interested behaviour acted out by the same person, I have no doubts. * What I really wanted an answer to was: 'What will the environment created for this new online learning actually consist of, in the widest sense of the situation for the learner and the context in which such learning takes place?'. * What can be confidently forecast about the nature of these changes for the perezhivanie of the learner, which shapes her social being and that which she perceives as being 'normal/abnormal', 'acceptable/unacceptable' and 'changeable/unchangeable' in her society? Since little practical detail is given in Klein's piece and I haven't yet listened to the complete video from the ECNY meeting, I cannot grasp what is intended/visualised by the AI/digital experts. I would welcome some approach to answers to those questions if that is within your area of expertise; if not, I am content to let it rest. Kind regards Tom On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 22:07, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello Tom, Thank you for posting the link. I did finally get around to reading the Klein article, and it is fairly dismal the manner that she outlines the intentions of Mr. Schmidt. That is not to say that she is far from the mark, but we are not just unthinking pods in the matrix, powerless to articulate the way technology is distended into our lives. I think what bothers me most about the Klein article is the tone. It reinforces through negation a fallacy that technology is inevitable (and resistance is futile). I say this because she presumes this narrative has become the hegemony upon which she reacts. It is far too doomsday. At the same time, a lot of her concerns are valid. The trawling for power in Washington by Silicon Valley is not unknown to us. Yet, I also had a real hard time with her juxatposing Schmidt with Bill Gates. Gates is working to do actual good in the world by projects such as the humble toilet in geographic locations without waste treatment facilities, or low water infrastructure (and we might as well include Warren Buffet in that equation, because the lionshare of the funding flowing into the Gates Foundation is from him. Buffet did not make his billions through technology, unless you want to include the telephone). I happen to know that the Gates Foundation is funding efforts to encourage agricultural developments in places like Columbia to grow coffee to replace illicit crops, in order to scale down the violence that coincides with the drug wars. These efforts are working. Why does she leave this out of the discussion? That's the general problem I find with Naomi Klein, is the chicken-little-sky-is-falling perspective. She seems to be similar to those trumpsters who blame the genesis of COVID (if not upon China) upon Gates, as some strange mastermind move to control the world. Tom, I think it is right and human that you responded to the bleakness of the tone, but that doesn't mean this worldview is correct or accurate. Technology will always be a tool for use. It is not monolithic. There is the off button. We do still have a democracy and processes in place to deliberate the way forward. As long as humans desire freedom there will always be resistance to control systems, generating a constant search for the chinks in the armor, or other loopholes to squeeze through. People will always use technology in ways that were not anticipated, but just as that can be assertion can be construed as dismal, it can also mean good news, that we always have agency to decide how to use our tools. Also, one stick in the spokes that was glaring for me is that Mr. Schmidt will never be able to address the laws for mandatory education for disabled children with his goals for flattening the classroom into two-dimensional online learning screens. He will never be able to walk around that law. So there are many ways this "technology is inevitable" narrative simply does not hold water for me. I hope this might be a little encouraging. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 10:46 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: remote_online learning? [EXTERNAL] Hello Tom Richardson This topic has been the front and center in the "Re-generating Chat Project" that has just finished its planned two year efforts that focused on the challenges to human development, and theories of "Development in the Anthropcene. Two months ago, the word Anthropocene was replaced by the code word, covid-19, a pandemic. Both crises pose huge challenges to theories of development as well as to actual development of huge numbers of people around the world. The MCA-linked website, CulturalPraxis currently has a number of essays on the challenges of this historical moment, and the opportunities. In the United States, the crisis has deschooled society in the most dramatic way one can imagine -- A way that literally forced a massive re-mediation of human life. Education, the wheel house of most members of this discussion over the years, is now a family affair big time. Simulaneously, home-worksite relations have been disassembled, both modes and relations of production are getting a shock that is crumbling institutions (home, school, work,). We can really get the feel of Roy D'andrade's comment that doing social science is like studying rocks in a rockslide. This rockslide moves a warp speed and its invisible. Remediation of existing classroom structures is what we have been about for 100 years. Seems like there has never been a more appropriate time to start providing working models of effective practices that do NOT assume that things will return to Christmas, 2019. Thanks for asking. mike On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Tom Richardson > wrote: Greetings Xmca-ers I would like to raise a question. In the article by Naomi Klein linked below, apart from all the major questions about our futures - personal freedom, health protection, democratic control and the power of Big Digital Tech_AI, international competition etc. that she raises, I wondered what from a Vygotskyan approach to child/human development/education can / should be a reply to these sentences on the 'home schooling' that has (or hasn't) been happening recently: "Indeed, Schmidt has been relentless in pursuing this vision. Two weeks after that article appeared, he described the ad-hoc home schooling programming that teachers and families across the country had been forced to cobble together during this public health emergency as ?a massive experiment in remote learning?. The goal of this experiment, he said, was ?trying to find out: how do kids learn remotely? And with that data we should be able to build better remote and distance learning tools which, when combined with the teacher ? will help kids learn better.? " https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!SnEsy86iYptlblabkwDJfUQrICcO-Smu9OT-rC-JE6ySTZMtNXBUEefxfo3uhasSGbZ7nQ$ Just asking Tom Richardson Middlesbrough UK -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of lchc.ucsd.edu. For narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. For new MCA-related website see: culturalpraxis.net. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200528/05a72fd0/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Thu May 28 09:50:39 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 12:50:39 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] ...kind of like guarding Lenin's tomb Message-ID: Dear educators of XMCA - I think I have a good question this time! To avoid redundancy, I searched the archives for answers and found an interesting thread from ten years ago. But I still want to ask this here: What kinds of "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of and/or used in order to support development? In this great little 2-minute clip, Mike Cole discusses Manuilenko's tomb-guarding experiment: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/znnvpz__;!!Mih3wA!QnyDKMmlGuxChw2AzXV_HvcVQlE8oeBivNWuK6vHi8K43tjlH2D14vGQwFlSGpHZ8pMhQA$ One can't help but try to think up other types of games (e.g., the Quiet Game on long car rides) that can function as cultural tools when the biological alone aren't cutting it. On a side note, the short video brought a number of questions to mind for me, such as: - where are 'the buds'? - what are the qualitative reorganizations here? - why are the buds (e.g, of volition) not yet present for the 3 year-olds, present for the 5 year-olds, and already flowered for the 8 year-olds? (ages are approximate, I know) - how temporary is the 5 year-olds' improved volition? Does it wear off? It is now 'activated' for good? - for the 8 year-olds, is volition fully developed for tasks such as standing still but still in the 'bud' stage for more demanding acts of will? But those side questions are not the target of this post. Instead, my question of the day is (I think a fun one): What kinds of "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of and/or used in order to support development? (Any age or stage or setting will do) Thank you, Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200528/af9e7123/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu May 28 10:48:21 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 10:48:21 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ...kind of like guarding Lenin's tomb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great question (s), Anthony! Of the shiny top of my head I can identify another. This is from Vivian Paley. It explicitly answers the question of "is this a once and for all change, or a bud that sprouted in just this one rare circumstance." Attached. mike On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:53 AM Anthony Barra wrote: > Dear educators of XMCA - > > I think I have a good question this time! To avoid redundancy, I searched > the archives for answers and found an interesting thread from ten years > ago. But I still want to ask this here: > > What kinds of "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of > and/or used in order to support development? > > In this great little 2-minute clip, Mike Cole discusses Manuilenko's > tomb-guarding experiment: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/znnvpz__;!!Mih3wA!X683eUcFW8gDsCvkDkihaUI2WefdNe3_4YRDVEalVu7OCe25J7bb83KhNPRCIbg4qohI6g$ > > > One can't help but try to think up other types of games (e.g., the Quiet > Game on long car rides) that can function as cultural tools when the > biological alone aren't cutting it. > > On a side note, the short video brought a number of questions to mind for > me, such as: > - where are 'the buds'? > - what are the qualitative reorganizations here? > - why are the buds (e.g, of volition) not yet present for the 3 year-olds, > present for the 5 year-olds, and already flowered for the 8 year-olds? > (ages are approximate, I know) > - how temporary is the 5 year-olds' improved volition? Does it wear off? > It is now 'activated' for good? > - for the 8 year-olds, is volition fully developed for tasks such as > standing still but still in the 'bud' stage for more demanding acts of will? > > But those side questions are not the target of this post. Instead, my > question of the day is (I think a fun one): What kinds of "guarding > Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of and/or used in order to > support development? (Any age or stage or setting will do) > > Thank you, > > Anthony > > -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!X683eUcFW8gDsCvkDkihaUI2WefdNe3_4YRDVEalVu7OCe25J7bb83KhNPRCIbgr_8aUPQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200528/274a7167/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Franklin.blocks.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 220602 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200528/274a7167/attachment-0001.pdf From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu May 28 14:21:08 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 22:21:08 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi David, I think you skipped over the attachment to grades as a proxy for interest in the subject. And I am curious whether you do anything about that. Huw On Wed, 27 May 2020 at 22:20, David Kellogg wrote: > Spinoza says that passions (in the sense of something you undergo, c.f. > "the passion of the Christ") are feelings that increase or decrease the > capacity of the body for action or the idea of the feeling (!). And, alas, > I just gave you a pretty good example > As Mike points out, there are ways of dealing with the unfair attacks on > Bernstein's legacy that increase the capacity for action many times. These > tend to be based on the idea of the feeling, and you can find a lot of them > in the LCHC autobiography and elsewhere. I think you cannot find them in > the attached article, because I am still undergoing some passion over this: > for me it is hopelessly inter-twined-and-woven with attacks on Ruqaiya > Hasan's legacy and the legacy of Halliday with which I am intellectually > and even emotionally inter-twined and -woven. Sometimes (e.g. my last post) > it much diminises the capacity of my body, of which my feelings are not > always the best functioning part, for action. For which I apologize to the > whole list. > > Here in Korea, schools are reopening and classes are going off line again. > This has been a gradual process, both because different grades have > different levels of urgency (high schoolers who are entering college are > considered urgent) and because different ages have different levels of risk > (again, older kids given to clubbing and courier jobs--the sources of two > recent spikes--are at greater risk). But yesterday we started second grade > classes, which means that our Vygotsky Community, which is overwhelmingly > composed of elementary school teachers, is now back in the classroom. > > You can see from this order that one thing that was not discussed was the > different levels of teacher presence that kids emotionally need. This is > something teachers themselves are quite sensitive too--it is why > second-grade teachers are usually motherly women with school age children > of their own, and sixth-grade teachers tend to look like that physical > education trainer you were so terrified of in sixth grade. But varying > levels of need for teacher presence has not really been a factor in public > health planning at all, nor am I sure it should be. At some point > (adolescence?), children really do need to differentiate their emotional > attachment to a subject matter from their emotional attachment to a > teacher, not just because study has to become self-sustaining to go > anywhere but because teachers are passionate bodies and this can greatly > increase but also greatly decrease their capacity for action. In China in > the eighties, for example, young professors did date their students at > university level but nobody dated anybody before that. I think that > here--helping us distinguish passion for the subject matter from passion > for the instructor--Zoom can also play an important role, the same kind of > positive role that those goofy parasol-hats they put on Chinese > preschoolers to enforce social distancing have played. > > (By the way, our Vygotsky Community has more than doubled in size since > the crisis began and we went on-line. Believe me--it's the subject matter!) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SfcBRdvbRsdnyRz3_MVYlBet22JuSBqL086sp47Z8xrIrT4jLtXUT-1blJosfk9ZxkHxlg$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SfcBRdvbRsdnyRz3_MVYlBet22JuSBqL086sp47Z8xrIrT4jLtXUT-1blJosfk_oJwUdKQ$ > > > > > On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 1:36 AM Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > >> Hi David >> Fortunately I was listening to this thread, so "I hear you!". I shall dig >> to see what I find about Spinoza in LSV. >> Big thank you. >> Tom >> BoWen >> >> >> On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 22:43, David Kellogg wrote: >> >>> Rob-- >>> >>> Thanks--my link works okay, but it's probably because I'm already logged >>> in. So I replaced the link with yours. >>> >>> For a fine example of witless misunderstanding justified with willfull >>> misrepresentation that was used to drive Bernstein's work out of the >>> academy, see the work of Peter Jones, referenced in my article. >>> >>> Peter E. Jones (2013) Bernstein's ?codes? and the linguistics of >>> ?deficit?, Language and Education, 27:2, 161-179, DOI: >>> 10.1080/09500782.2012.760587 >>> >>> Notice the scare quotes around "code" (which Bernstein did >>> use) and likewise the term "deficit" (which Bernstein explicitly >>> repudiated). Clever, huh? >>> >>> But Jones doesn't make this stuff up. He mostly just borrows from the >>> long liberal anti-Marxist American tradition of this kind of attack, going >>> back to William Labov. For example, the "linguist" Jones cites against >>> Halliday is actually a historian of psychology (Jonathan Edwards) who >>> argues that some cultures can have completely degenerate moral codes but >>> very advanced languages, such as cannibal savages! >>> >>> A few years ago we were discussing an article here on xmca by Marilyn >>> Fleer and I asked her if she was a Bernsteinian. I have always considered >>> myself one, and I was genuinely curious to find others of a similar >>> persuasion; Bernstein's name was not so blackened in Australia as it was in >>> America, and Ruqaiya Hasan, who taught in Sydney, was always proud to >>> acknowledge Bernstein as her colleague and mentor. Marilyn was a little >>> indignant. >>> >>> Michael-- >>> >>> Here in Korea the main way of giving on-line classes is just uploading >>> audio file which the student then listen to when they have time and giving >>> lots of homework. Curiously, some of the kids prefer this. ALL of my >>> students dislike using the camera. I am not sure what to make of this... >>> >>> Every crisis is a turning point. Education has gleefully saddled three >>> cash cows: foreign students, college sports, and diploma mills, and all >>> three of these are now hamburger. On the one hand, Zoom classes and audio >>> classes allow us to provide universal college education for almost >>> nothing--if we can solve the mediational problems. On the other, pinkspace >>> classes can easily be social-distanced--if we can just make undergraduate >>> classes the size of graduate seminars (with more classes outside in good >>> weather). But both solutions--universal online tertiary education and >>> extending the graduate seminar experience to undergraduates--will >>> inevitably hinge on the outcome of the struggle to make education an >>> intellectual public institution instead of a semi-intellectual luxury >>> brand, and this in turn will hinge on the struggle for preventive medicine >>> based on foresight instead of astonishment. >>> >>> Oi, Tom! (Way over on the other thread, so I have to shout!) >>> >>> Vygotsky writes a LOT about Spinoza; his sister was doing her PhD on the >>> guy when he was still in high school and he went to stay with her at Moscow >>> University and caught the bug. He was working on a vast tome on how >>> Spinoza's work could be retooled to give us a Marxist (materialist, monist, >>> but dialectical) theory of higher emotions when he died. We are translating >>> it all into Korean, and I am trying to write a preface. Spinoza believed in >>> sentient meat: "Deus, Sive Natura" ("God, that is to say, Nature...") Above >>> all, though, Spinoza believed that emotions are anything that increases or >>> decreases our ability to do things. The interesting thing, which I am still >>> trying to wrap my head around, is that one of those things that does this >>> is the idea of the emotion itself--the perezhivanie. >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SfcBRdvbRsdnyRz3_MVYlBet22JuSBqL086sp47Z8xrIrT4jLtXUT-1blJosfk9ZxkHxlg$ >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SfcBRdvbRsdnyRz3_MVYlBet22JuSBqL086sp47Z8xrIrT4jLtXUT-1blJosfk_oJwUdKQ$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 10:51 PM Glassman, Michael >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello David, Elizabeth, Annalisa, Rob, others, >>>> >>>> Well social presence and teacher presence are two completely different >>>> lines of research and thinking even though they sound alike. Teacher >>>> presence comes from localized classroom research while social presence >>>> comes from the communication field I believe sometime in the 1960s. Lately >>>> I have begun to think of teacher presence as similar to Bourdeiu's cultural >>>> capital. Our education system teaches certain groups of children how to >>>> read and get in sync with teachers from their more subtle physical signs so >>>> that they become more successful later in their school careers and in life. >>>> Many of the more successful children also get practice in reading these >>>> different signs at home. It is the old adage, don't listen to what I say, >>>> watch what I do. Social presence on the other hand is more related to our >>>> own understanding of our own communications and the value of those >>>> communications. We have a sense of what we are doing from those who are >>>> watching us (in the broad sense), and this sense changes as our sense of >>>> those who are watching us changes not only how we act but the investment we >>>> make in what we do changes accordingly. I see it all the time in teachers, >>>> who they are changes completely when they get up in from of a room of >>>> students. Just a mind experiment. The next time you read an XMCA post see >>>> if you can imagine a few of the members standing over your should observing >>>> you are you are reading with the expectation of some response. See how this >>>> might change your behavior. >>>> >>>> As for Zoom. I just think it is not a good tool for education and the >>>> reason we use it is illusory (because it recreates a place-based experience >>>> so we are more comfortable with it?). Zoom's purpose is not education in >>>> the sense of knowledge sharing and knowledge creation. Its proximal purpose >>>> I believe was to sell to corporations and such for meetings so they would >>>> not have to spend as much on travel. Its distal purpose, meeting platforms >>>> in general, was so individuals could engage in multiple activities related >>>> to the topic but not focused on the topic. I mean it is kind of cool, you >>>> can have a meeting where you wear a tie on top and boxer shorts below. And >>>> we are sometimes a talking head culture. But it is by nature very >>>> unilateral and expert oriented. Do we have to develop a whole new cultural >>>> capital oeuvre for Zoom meetings. We must make sure that those who are >>>> ahead stay ahead. Annalisa in answer to your question no education or Zoom, >>>> I worry about binary choices such as this. Maybe we should be asking >>>> ourselves how we got here in the first place. Why are these our only two >>>> choices right now, and many attempts using Meeting platforms are failing as >>>> they seem to be, how do we move forward from here. Why aren't we asking >>>> more questions, trying to understand how our great digital experiment is >>>> failing education. And speaking to Rob's poignant use of the term pink >>>> space, why is the lack of universal broadband dominating discussions. I >>>> think about the whole one to one movement and I really question why we >>>> leaped ahead to this without a reckoning over the need to have every corner >>>> of our society equitably wired (spoiler alert: because instead of >>>> corporations making oodles of money our society will have to spend oodles >>>> of money). So Annalisa I got back to your question, is it better to have no >>>> education or Zoom and I ask if you stepped on a nail would it be better to >>>> put on a band-aid to stop the bleeding or to figure our how to save your >>>> life (I know the answer will be both but where do I prioritize). >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> On Behalf Of robsub@ariadne.org.uk >>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 4:53 AM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" >>>> >>>> Just a couple of very quick observations. (I find regularly that by the >>>> time I have formulated my response to something, the conversation has moved >>>> on by several degrees, so I'm getting in quickly.) >>>> >>>> Firstly the link to your article on Ruqaiya didn't resolve, David. But >>>> I found it here: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-UtouXiIa-kw$ >>>> . Thank you for that, though - looks well worth reading. >>>> >>>> Secondly, I always had the impression that Bernstein was resisted not >>>> because of his work on codes specifically, but because he was too prone to >>>> allowing his work to be used to justify class differentials, almost to the >>>> level of the poor keep themselves poor by deliberately restricting the >>>> language their children learn. >>>> >>>> Thirdly, meatspace. Hmmm. I'm toying with the idea of pinkspace. Less >>>> physically vulgar than meatspace and reflects the reality that the physical >>>> world, just like the online world, is dominated by those of us who are >>>> pink. Just a thought. Needs developing though. >>>> >>>> Rob >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2020-05-26 03:08, David Kellogg wrote: >>>> > Michael, Anthony, Elizabeth--and (of course) Annalisa: >>>> > >>>> > I apologize for changing the threadline title AGAIN. I feel like the >>>> > five-year-old who is always unscrewing the back of the TV set to see >>>> > the little people inside; I was very dissatisfied withe the abstract >>>> > theory on the other line, according to which everything is everything >>>> > and mediation and unmediation are equally both and I wanted a way of >>>> > finding the people inside it. I thought the term "meatspace", which >>>> > Annalisa has heard before, captured that feeling pretty well (and >>>> > there are also some echoes of a corruscating book review I once read >>>> > in MCA titled something like "Yer askin' me to believe in sentient >>>> > MEAT????") >>>> > >>>> > Let's use Michael's categories of "teacher presence" and "social >>>> > presence" instead, so long as we keep in mind the point that Michael >>>> > made at the end, that is, the teacher is always present even when the >>>> > teacher is not present (as when the child is doing homework alone) >>>> and >>>> > the additional point that teacher presence is one kind of social >>>> > presence. But because presence and absence are (like mediated and >>>> > unmediated) equally both ungradeable categories, I would prefer to >>>> > talk about teacher distancing and social distancing. Michael >>>> Osterholm >>>> > has objected to the term social distancing for the same reasons I >>>> > raised earlier--it's a physical, mechanical distancing that actually >>>> > creates a higher form of solidarity (and that is why the elements of >>>> > society which oppose higher forms of solidarity oppose it). So I put >>>> > "social distancing" in scare quotes. But the teacher distancing is >>>> > real enough. >>>> > >>>> > Real but not by itself of developmental significance. What worries me >>>> > is the possibility that we are adding to the kinds of inequalitiees >>>> > that Annalisa, Henry and Tom are talking about on the other thread. >>>> It >>>> > seems to me that teacher distancing differentially hurts some >>>> > populations. I disagree that Koreans are more homogeneous than other >>>> > cultures (in class terms significantly less so) and I also think >>>> that >>>> > if you were to sit through a lecture in the Korean language without >>>> > understanding Korean you would not agree that language is the least >>>> > important aspect of teacher presence. But (to bring these two >>>> > together) I think that students who are able to focus on language, >>>> and >>>> > on particular kinds of language, are disproportionately enabled in >>>> > conditions of teacher distancing. This is the issue that dare not >>>> > speak its name, for when Bernstein tried to raise it he was, as >>>> > Halliday noted, "driven out of the field". One of the reasons I >>>> wrote >>>> > the article linked below is that Ruqaiya Hasan was not. >>>> > >>>> > David Kellogg >>>> > >>>> > Sangmyung University >>>> > >>>> > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>> > Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> > >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie >>>> > w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d >>>> > 7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-Utot_Yz0eEQ$ [1] >>>> > >>>> > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: _L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>> > Works_ _Volume One: Foundations of Pedology_" >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 >>>> > 5270__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqO >>>> > DPVr-UtotPljj6rQ$ [2] >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Links: >>>> > ------ >>>> > [1] >>>> > >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie >>>> > w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zc >>>> > e9P2I5M_FZBJKElhGyP20UejX0w$ >>>> > [2] >>>> > >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 >>>> > 5270__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zce9P2I5M_FZB >>>> > JKElhGyP026P9-1A$ >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200528/032a2cb5/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu May 28 14:44:58 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 22:44:58 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ...kind of like guarding Lenin's tomb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's an impressive account by Smirnova of a preschool class coming to voluntarily take control of their quietude via a game of "who woke teddy?" in JREEP 52/4. A challenge I have wth a near 6 year old is his emphasis upon wanting to win games and consequent shyness with activities that cast him as a weaker performer. Best, Huw On Thu, 28 May 2020 at 18:52, mike cole wrote: > Great question (s), Anthony! > > Of the shiny top of my head I can identify another. This is from Vivian > Paley. > It explicitly answers the question of "is this a once and for all change, > or a bud that sprouted in just this one rare > circumstance." > Attached. > mike > > On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:53 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Dear educators of XMCA - >> >> I think I have a good question this time! To avoid redundancy, I >> searched the archives for answers and found an interesting thread from ten >> years ago. But I still want to ask this here: >> >> What kinds of "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of >> and/or used in order to support development? >> >> In this great little 2-minute clip, Mike Cole discusses Manuilenko's >> tomb-guarding experiment: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/znnvpz__;!!Mih3wA!TJuvrt3iFAxqtR-oYZqiNYRNcPQWOzIxPa6tmHW2tgkyFJ1Qf8EVQnxO-so_PFg5qwV1Bg$ >> >> >> One can't help but try to think up other types of games (e.g., the Quiet >> Game on long car rides) that can function as cultural tools when the >> biological alone aren't cutting it. >> >> On a side note, the short video brought a number of questions to mind for >> me, such as: >> - where are 'the buds'? >> - what are the qualitative reorganizations here? >> - why are the buds (e.g, of volition) not yet present for the 3 >> year-olds, present for the 5 year-olds, and already flowered for the 8 >> year-olds? (ages are approximate, I know) >> - how temporary is the 5 year-olds' improved volition? Does it wear off? >> It is now 'activated' for good? >> - for the 8 year-olds, is volition fully developed for tasks such as >> standing still but still in the 'bud' stage for more demanding acts of will? >> >> But those side questions are not the target of this post. Instead, my >> question of the day is (I think a fun one): What kinds of "guarding >> Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of and/or used in order to >> support development? (Any age or stage or setting will do) >> >> Thank you, >> >> Anthony >> >> > > -- > > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, > translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TJuvrt3iFAxqtR-oYZqiNYRNcPQWOzIxPa6tmHW2tgkyFJ1Qf8EVQnxO-so_PFjbX8AgSA$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200528/e871018b/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu May 28 17:42:12 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 09:42:12 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Huw-- Weirdly, the two things are connected. One reason that (unmarried) professors were allowed to date their students back in China was that grades were rigorously objective and not, in the end, of much consequence: everybody was getting an assigned job no matter what. There was no grading at all in elementary school when I first arrived in Korea in 1997. Now there are standardized tests but these are not really graded, and it is always emphasized that they are for the purpose of evaluating the schools and the teachers and not the children. In middle school and high school, grades become extremely important, but not as any proxy for interest in subject matter: the government has been trying to weaken the grip of the college entrance exam on admissions and one way to do this is to allow about two thirds of students into university without taking exams, just on the strenght of grades and "performance evaluation" (the source of GREAT corruption in Korean society at present. Me? I am a great believer in grade inflation: during the term I threaten the students quite shamelessly and at the end of the term I always give students the maximum possible grade, stressing that it is not actually connected to achievement or merit or anything except my sincere desire to see the end of the grading system as a whole. The students are a little taken aback, but they play along. Isn't that what grading is really about? To make it a proxy for interest in the subject matter is a little like making spelling a procksie for meening. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QKeMr_DxaOhkUyAIQGTY5n09MXur00WJ_UnwYQFU6Ba2jRpc2rjXgX14URtxI8MlPrfn3g$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QKeMr_DxaOhkUyAIQGTY5n09MXur00WJ_UnwYQFU6Ba2jRpc2rjXgX14URtxI8N8ML3yFg$ On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 6:24 AM Huw Lloyd wrote: > Hi David, > > I think you skipped over the attachment to grades as a proxy for interest > in the subject. And I am curious whether you do anything about that. > > Huw > > On Wed, 27 May 2020 at 22:20, David Kellogg wrote: > >> Spinoza says that passions (in the sense of something you undergo, c.f. >> "the passion of the Christ") are feelings that increase or decrease the >> capacity of the body for action or the idea of the feeling (!). And, alas, >> I just gave you a pretty good example >> As Mike points out, there are ways of dealing with the unfair attacks on >> Bernstein's legacy that increase the capacity for action many times. These >> tend to be based on the idea of the feeling, and you can find a lot of them >> in the LCHC autobiography and elsewhere. I think you cannot find them in >> the attached article, because I am still undergoing some passion over this: >> for me it is hopelessly inter-twined-and-woven with attacks on Ruqaiya >> Hasan's legacy and the legacy of Halliday with which I am intellectually >> and even emotionally inter-twined and -woven. Sometimes (e.g. my last post) >> it much diminises the capacity of my body, of which my feelings are not >> always the best functioning part, for action. For which I apologize to the >> whole list. >> >> Here in Korea, schools are reopening and classes are going off line >> again. This has been a gradual process, both because different grades have >> different levels of urgency (high schoolers who are entering college are >> considered urgent) and because different ages have different levels of risk >> (again, older kids given to clubbing and courier jobs--the sources of two >> recent spikes--are at greater risk). But yesterday we started second grade >> classes, which means that our Vygotsky Community, which is overwhelmingly >> composed of elementary school teachers, is now back in the classroom. >> >> You can see from this order that one thing that was not discussed was the >> different levels of teacher presence that kids emotionally need. This is >> something teachers themselves are quite sensitive too--it is why >> second-grade teachers are usually motherly women with school age children >> of their own, and sixth-grade teachers tend to look like that physical >> education trainer you were so terrified of in sixth grade. But varying >> levels of need for teacher presence has not really been a factor in public >> health planning at all, nor am I sure it should be. At some point >> (adolescence?), children really do need to differentiate their emotional >> attachment to a subject matter from their emotional attachment to a >> teacher, not just because study has to become self-sustaining to go >> anywhere but because teachers are passionate bodies and this can greatly >> increase but also greatly decrease their capacity for action. In China in >> the eighties, for example, young professors did date their students at >> university level but nobody dated anybody before that. I think that >> here--helping us distinguish passion for the subject matter from passion >> for the instructor--Zoom can also play an important role, the same kind of >> positive role that those goofy parasol-hats they put on Chinese >> preschoolers to enforce social distancing have played. >> >> (By the way, our Vygotsky Community has more than doubled in size since >> the crisis began and we went on-line. Believe me--it's the subject matter!) >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QKeMr_DxaOhkUyAIQGTY5n09MXur00WJ_UnwYQFU6Ba2jRpc2rjXgX14URtxI8MlPrfn3g$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QKeMr_DxaOhkUyAIQGTY5n09MXur00WJ_UnwYQFU6Ba2jRpc2rjXgX14URtxI8N8ML3yFg$ >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 1:36 AM Tom Richardson < >> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi David >>> Fortunately I was listening to this thread, so "I hear you!". I shall >>> dig to see what I find about Spinoza in LSV. >>> Big thank you. >>> Tom >>> BoWen >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 22:43, David Kellogg >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Rob-- >>>> >>>> Thanks--my link works okay, but it's probably because I'm already >>>> logged in. So I replaced the link with yours. >>>> >>>> For a fine example of witless misunderstanding justified with willfull >>>> misrepresentation that was used to drive Bernstein's work out of the >>>> academy, see the work of Peter Jones, referenced in my article. >>>> >>>> Peter E. Jones (2013) Bernstein's ?codes? and the linguistics of >>>> ?deficit?, Language and Education, 27:2, 161-179, DOI: >>>> 10.1080/09500782.2012.760587 >>>> >>>> Notice the scare quotes around "code" (which Bernstein did >>>> use) and likewise the term "deficit" (which Bernstein explicitly >>>> repudiated). Clever, huh? >>>> >>>> But Jones doesn't make this stuff up. He mostly just borrows from the >>>> long liberal anti-Marxist American tradition of this kind of attack, going >>>> back to William Labov. For example, the "linguist" Jones cites against >>>> Halliday is actually a historian of psychology (Jonathan Edwards) who >>>> argues that some cultures can have completely degenerate moral codes but >>>> very advanced languages, such as cannibal savages! >>>> >>>> A few years ago we were discussing an article here on xmca by Marilyn >>>> Fleer and I asked her if she was a Bernsteinian. I have always considered >>>> myself one, and I was genuinely curious to find others of a similar >>>> persuasion; Bernstein's name was not so blackened in Australia as it was in >>>> America, and Ruqaiya Hasan, who taught in Sydney, was always proud to >>>> acknowledge Bernstein as her colleague and mentor. Marilyn was a little >>>> indignant. >>>> >>>> Michael-- >>>> >>>> Here in Korea the main way of giving on-line classes is just uploading >>>> audio file which the student then listen to when they have time and giving >>>> lots of homework. Curiously, some of the kids prefer this. ALL of my >>>> students dislike using the camera. I am not sure what to make of this... >>>> >>>> Every crisis is a turning point. Education has gleefully saddled three >>>> cash cows: foreign students, college sports, and diploma mills, and all >>>> three of these are now hamburger. On the one hand, Zoom classes and audio >>>> classes allow us to provide universal college education for almost >>>> nothing--if we can solve the mediational problems. On the other, pinkspace >>>> classes can easily be social-distanced--if we can just make undergraduate >>>> classes the size of graduate seminars (with more classes outside in good >>>> weather). But both solutions--universal online tertiary education and >>>> extending the graduate seminar experience to undergraduates--will >>>> inevitably hinge on the outcome of the struggle to make education an >>>> intellectual public institution instead of a semi-intellectual luxury >>>> brand, and this in turn will hinge on the struggle for preventive medicine >>>> based on foresight instead of astonishment. >>>> >>>> Oi, Tom! (Way over on the other thread, so I have to shout!) >>>> >>>> Vygotsky writes a LOT about Spinoza; his sister was doing her PhD on >>>> the guy when he was still in high school and he went to stay with her at >>>> Moscow University and caught the bug. He was working on a vast tome on how >>>> Spinoza's work could be retooled to give us a Marxist (materialist, monist, >>>> but dialectical) theory of higher emotions when he died. We are translating >>>> it all into Korean, and I am trying to write a preface. Spinoza believed in >>>> sentient meat: "Deus, Sive Natura" ("God, that is to say, Nature...") Above >>>> all, though, Spinoza believed that emotions are anything that increases or >>>> decreases our ability to do things. The interesting thing, which I am still >>>> trying to wrap my head around, is that one of those things that does this >>>> is the idea of the emotion itself--the perezhivanie. >>>> >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QKeMr_DxaOhkUyAIQGTY5n09MXur00WJ_UnwYQFU6Ba2jRpc2rjXgX14URtxI8MlPrfn3g$ >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QKeMr_DxaOhkUyAIQGTY5n09MXur00WJ_UnwYQFU6Ba2jRpc2rjXgX14URtxI8N8ML3yFg$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 10:51 PM Glassman, Michael >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello David, Elizabeth, Annalisa, Rob, others, >>>>> >>>>> Well social presence and teacher presence are two completely different >>>>> lines of research and thinking even though they sound alike. Teacher >>>>> presence comes from localized classroom research while social presence >>>>> comes from the communication field I believe sometime in the 1960s. Lately >>>>> I have begun to think of teacher presence as similar to Bourdeiu's cultural >>>>> capital. Our education system teaches certain groups of children how to >>>>> read and get in sync with teachers from their more subtle physical signs so >>>>> that they become more successful later in their school careers and in life. >>>>> Many of the more successful children also get practice in reading these >>>>> different signs at home. It is the old adage, don't listen to what I say, >>>>> watch what I do. Social presence on the other hand is more related to our >>>>> own understanding of our own communications and the value of those >>>>> communications. We have a sense of what we are doing from those who are >>>>> watching us (in the broad sense), and this sense changes as our sense of >>>>> those who are watching us changes not only how we act but the investment we >>>>> make in what we do changes accordingly. I see it all the time in teachers, >>>>> who they are changes completely when they get up in from of a room of >>>>> students. Just a mind experiment. The next time you read an XMCA post see >>>>> if you can imagine a few of the members standing over your should observing >>>>> you are you are reading with the expectation of some response. See how this >>>>> might change your behavior. >>>>> >>>>> As for Zoom. I just think it is not a good tool for education and the >>>>> reason we use it is illusory (because it recreates a place-based experience >>>>> so we are more comfortable with it?). Zoom's purpose is not education in >>>>> the sense of knowledge sharing and knowledge creation. Its proximal purpose >>>>> I believe was to sell to corporations and such for meetings so they would >>>>> not have to spend as much on travel. Its distal purpose, meeting platforms >>>>> in general, was so individuals could engage in multiple activities related >>>>> to the topic but not focused on the topic. I mean it is kind of cool, you >>>>> can have a meeting where you wear a tie on top and boxer shorts below. And >>>>> we are sometimes a talking head culture. But it is by nature very >>>>> unilateral and expert oriented. Do we have to develop a whole new cultural >>>>> capital oeuvre for Zoom meetings. We must make sure that those who are >>>>> ahead stay ahead. Annalisa in answer to your question no education or Zoom, >>>>> I worry about binary choices such as this. Maybe we should be asking >>>>> ourselves how we got here in the first place. Why are these our only two >>>>> choices right now, and many attempts using Meeting platforms are failing as >>>>> they seem to be, how do we move forward from here. Why aren't we asking >>>>> more questions, trying to understand how our great digital experiment is >>>>> failing education. And speaking to Rob's poignant use of the term pink >>>>> space, why is the lack of universal broadband dominating discussions. I >>>>> think about the whole one to one movement and I really question why we >>>>> leaped ahead to this without a reckoning over the need to have every corner >>>>> of our society equitably wired (spoiler alert: because instead of >>>>> corporations making oodles of money our society will have to spend oodles >>>>> of money). So Annalisa I got back to your question, is it better to have no >>>>> education or Zoom and I ask if you stepped on a nail would it be better to >>>>> put on a band-aid to stop the bleeding or to figure our how to save your >>>>> life (I know the answer will be both but where do I prioritize). >>>>> >>>>> Michael >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> On Behalf Of robsub@ariadne.org.uk >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 4:53 AM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" >>>>> >>>>> Just a couple of very quick observations. (I find regularly that by >>>>> the time I have formulated my response to something, the conversation has >>>>> moved on by several degrees, so I'm getting in quickly.) >>>>> >>>>> Firstly the link to your article on Ruqaiya didn't resolve, David. But >>>>> I found it here: >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-UtouXiIa-kw$ >>>>> . Thank you for that, though - looks well worth reading. >>>>> >>>>> Secondly, I always had the impression that Bernstein was resisted not >>>>> because of his work on codes specifically, but because he was too prone to >>>>> allowing his work to be used to justify class differentials, almost to the >>>>> level of the poor keep themselves poor by deliberately restricting the >>>>> language their children learn. >>>>> >>>>> Thirdly, meatspace. Hmmm. I'm toying with the idea of pinkspace. Less >>>>> physically vulgar than meatspace and reflects the reality that the physical >>>>> world, just like the online world, is dominated by those of us who are >>>>> pink. Just a thought. Needs developing though. >>>>> >>>>> Rob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2020-05-26 03:08, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>> > Michael, Anthony, Elizabeth--and (of course) Annalisa: >>>>> > >>>>> > I apologize for changing the threadline title AGAIN. I feel like the >>>>> > five-year-old who is always unscrewing the back of the TV set to see >>>>> > the little people inside; I was very dissatisfied withe the abstract >>>>> > theory on the other line, according to which everything is >>>>> everything >>>>> > and mediation and unmediation are equally both and I wanted a way of >>>>> > finding the people inside it. I thought the term "meatspace", which >>>>> > Annalisa has heard before, captured that feeling pretty well (and >>>>> > there are also some echoes of a corruscating book review I once read >>>>> > in MCA titled something like "Yer askin' me to believe in sentient >>>>> > MEAT????") >>>>> > >>>>> > Let's use Michael's categories of "teacher presence" and "social >>>>> > presence" instead, so long as we keep in mind the point that Michael >>>>> > made at the end, that is, the teacher is always present even when >>>>> the >>>>> > teacher is not present (as when the child is doing homework alone) >>>>> and >>>>> > the additional point that teacher presence is one kind of social >>>>> > presence. But because presence and absence are (like mediated and >>>>> > unmediated) equally both ungradeable categories, I would prefer to >>>>> > talk about teacher distancing and social distancing. Michael >>>>> Osterholm >>>>> > has objected to the term social distancing for the same reasons I >>>>> > raised earlier--it's a physical, mechanical distancing that actually >>>>> > creates a higher form of solidarity (and that is why the elements of >>>>> > society which oppose higher forms of solidarity oppose it). So I put >>>>> > "social distancing" in scare quotes. But the teacher distancing is >>>>> > real enough. >>>>> > >>>>> > Real but not by itself of developmental significance. What worries >>>>> me >>>>> > is the possibility that we are adding to the kinds of inequalitiees >>>>> > that Annalisa, Henry and Tom are talking about on the other thread. >>>>> It >>>>> > seems to me that teacher distancing differentially hurts some >>>>> > populations. I disagree that Koreans are more homogeneous than other >>>>> > cultures (in class terms significantly less so) and I also think >>>>> that >>>>> > if you were to sit through a lecture in the Korean language without >>>>> > understanding Korean you would not agree that language is the least >>>>> > important aspect of teacher presence. But (to bring these two >>>>> > together) I think that students who are able to focus on language, >>>>> and >>>>> > on particular kinds of language, are disproportionately enabled in >>>>> > conditions of teacher distancing. This is the issue that dare not >>>>> > speak its name, for when Bernstein tried to raise it he was, as >>>>> > Halliday noted, "driven out of the field". One of the reasons I >>>>> wrote >>>>> > the article linked below is that Ruqaiya Hasan was not. >>>>> > >>>>> > David Kellogg >>>>> > >>>>> > Sangmyung University >>>>> > >>>>> > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>>> > Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>> > >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie >>>>> > >>>>> w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d >>>>> > 7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-Utot_Yz0eEQ$ [1] >>>>> > >>>>> > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: _L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>>> > Works_ _Volume One: Foundations of Pedology_" >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 >>>>> > >>>>> 5270__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqO >>>>> > DPVr-UtotPljj6rQ$ [2] >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > Links: >>>>> > ------ >>>>> > [1] >>>>> > >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie >>>>> > >>>>> w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zc >>>>> > e9P2I5M_FZBJKElhGyP20UejX0w$ >>>>> > [2] >>>>> > >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 >>>>> > >>>>> 5270__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zce9P2I5M_FZB >>>>> > JKElhGyP026P9-1A$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200529/27f9da3a/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri May 29 00:07:22 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 08:07:22 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, David. So it seems you leave it up to the students as to whether they take a deeper approach to the subject rather than approach the whole course developmentally, bluntly: whether you do what you preach. On Fri, 29 May 2020 at 01:47, David Kellogg wrote: > Huw-- > > Weirdly, the two things are connected. One reason that (unmarried) > professors were allowed to date their students back in China was that > grades were rigorously objective and not, in the end, of much consequence: > everybody was getting an assigned job no matter what. > > There was no grading at all in elementary school when I first arrived in > Korea in 1997. Now there are standardized tests but these are not really > graded, and it is always emphasized that they are for the purpose of > evaluating the schools and the teachers and not the children. In middle > school and high school, grades become extremely important, but not as any > proxy for interest in subject matter: the government has been trying to > weaken the grip of the college entrance exam on admissions and one way to > do this is to allow about two thirds of students into university without > taking exams, just on the strenght of grades and "performance evaluation" > (the source of GREAT corruption in Korean society at present. > > Me? I am a great believer in grade inflation: during the term I threaten > the students quite shamelessly and at the end of the term I always give > students the maximum possible grade, stressing that it is not actually > connected to achievement or merit or anything except my sincere desire to > see the end of the grading system as a whole. The students are a little > taken aback, but they play along. Isn't that what grading is really about? > To make it a proxy for interest in the subject matter is a little like > making spelling a procksie for meening. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QVwBIiClRdp9TWPmK9WGM9KfxQINeXHq68oJyEOQlH-i6SDmOvEQHPYBYxDbRZdWAdl4TA$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QVwBIiClRdp9TWPmK9WGM9KfxQINeXHq68oJyEOQlH-i6SDmOvEQHPYBYxDbRZd_eBvbXQ$ > > > > > On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 6:24 AM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >> Hi David, >> >> I think you skipped over the attachment to grades as a proxy for interest >> in the subject. And I am curious whether you do anything about that. >> >> Huw >> >> On Wed, 27 May 2020 at 22:20, David Kellogg wrote: >> >>> Spinoza says that passions (in the sense of something you undergo, c.f. >>> "the passion of the Christ") are feelings that increase or decrease the >>> capacity of the body for action or the idea of the feeling (!). And, alas, >>> I just gave you a pretty good example >>> As Mike points out, there are ways of dealing with the unfair attacks on >>> Bernstein's legacy that increase the capacity for action many times. These >>> tend to be based on the idea of the feeling, and you can find a lot of them >>> in the LCHC autobiography and elsewhere. I think you cannot find them in >>> the attached article, because I am still undergoing some passion over this: >>> for me it is hopelessly inter-twined-and-woven with attacks on Ruqaiya >>> Hasan's legacy and the legacy of Halliday with which I am intellectually >>> and even emotionally inter-twined and -woven. Sometimes (e.g. my last post) >>> it much diminises the capacity of my body, of which my feelings are not >>> always the best functioning part, for action. For which I apologize to the >>> whole list. >>> >>> Here in Korea, schools are reopening and classes are going off line >>> again. This has been a gradual process, both because different grades have >>> different levels of urgency (high schoolers who are entering college are >>> considered urgent) and because different ages have different levels of risk >>> (again, older kids given to clubbing and courier jobs--the sources of two >>> recent spikes--are at greater risk). But yesterday we started second grade >>> classes, which means that our Vygotsky Community, which is overwhelmingly >>> composed of elementary school teachers, is now back in the classroom. >>> >>> You can see from this order that one thing that was not discussed was >>> the different levels of teacher presence that kids emotionally need. This >>> is something teachers themselves are quite sensitive too--it is why >>> second-grade teachers are usually motherly women with school age children >>> of their own, and sixth-grade teachers tend to look like that physical >>> education trainer you were so terrified of in sixth grade. But varying >>> levels of need for teacher presence has not really been a factor in public >>> health planning at all, nor am I sure it should be. At some point >>> (adolescence?), children really do need to differentiate their emotional >>> attachment to a subject matter from their emotional attachment to a >>> teacher, not just because study has to become self-sustaining to go >>> anywhere but because teachers are passionate bodies and this can greatly >>> increase but also greatly decrease their capacity for action. In China in >>> the eighties, for example, young professors did date their students at >>> university level but nobody dated anybody before that. I think that >>> here--helping us distinguish passion for the subject matter from passion >>> for the instructor--Zoom can also play an important role, the same kind of >>> positive role that those goofy parasol-hats they put on Chinese >>> preschoolers to enforce social distancing have played. >>> >>> (By the way, our Vygotsky Community has more than doubled in size since >>> the crisis began and we went on-line. Believe me--it's the subject matter!) >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QVwBIiClRdp9TWPmK9WGM9KfxQINeXHq68oJyEOQlH-i6SDmOvEQHPYBYxDbRZdWAdl4TA$ >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QVwBIiClRdp9TWPmK9WGM9KfxQINeXHq68oJyEOQlH-i6SDmOvEQHPYBYxDbRZd_eBvbXQ$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 1:36 AM Tom Richardson < >>> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi David >>>> Fortunately I was listening to this thread, so "I hear you!". I shall >>>> dig to see what I find about Spinoza in LSV. >>>> Big thank you. >>>> Tom >>>> BoWen >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 22:43, David Kellogg >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Rob-- >>>>> >>>>> Thanks--my link works okay, but it's probably because I'm already >>>>> logged in. So I replaced the link with yours. >>>>> >>>>> For a fine example of witless misunderstanding justified with willfull >>>>> misrepresentation that was used to drive Bernstein's work out of the >>>>> academy, see the work of Peter Jones, referenced in my article. >>>>> >>>>> Peter E. Jones (2013) Bernstein's ?codes? and the linguistics of >>>>> ?deficit?, Language and Education, 27:2, 161-179, DOI: >>>>> 10.1080/09500782.2012.760587 >>>>> >>>>> Notice the scare quotes around "code" (which Bernstein did >>>>> use) and likewise the term "deficit" (which Bernstein explicitly >>>>> repudiated). Clever, huh? >>>>> >>>>> But Jones doesn't make this stuff up. He mostly just borrows from the >>>>> long liberal anti-Marxist American tradition of this kind of attack, going >>>>> back to William Labov. For example, the "linguist" Jones cites against >>>>> Halliday is actually a historian of psychology (Jonathan Edwards) who >>>>> argues that some cultures can have completely degenerate moral codes but >>>>> very advanced languages, such as cannibal savages! >>>>> >>>>> A few years ago we were discussing an article here on xmca by Marilyn >>>>> Fleer and I asked her if she was a Bernsteinian. I have always considered >>>>> myself one, and I was genuinely curious to find others of a similar >>>>> persuasion; Bernstein's name was not so blackened in Australia as it was in >>>>> America, and Ruqaiya Hasan, who taught in Sydney, was always proud to >>>>> acknowledge Bernstein as her colleague and mentor. Marilyn was a little >>>>> indignant. >>>>> >>>>> Michael-- >>>>> >>>>> Here in Korea the main way of giving on-line classes is just uploading >>>>> audio file which the student then listen to when they have time and giving >>>>> lots of homework. Curiously, some of the kids prefer this. ALL of my >>>>> students dislike using the camera. I am not sure what to make of this... >>>>> >>>>> Every crisis is a turning point. Education has gleefully saddled three >>>>> cash cows: foreign students, college sports, and diploma mills, and all >>>>> three of these are now hamburger. On the one hand, Zoom classes and audio >>>>> classes allow us to provide universal college education for almost >>>>> nothing--if we can solve the mediational problems. On the other, pinkspace >>>>> classes can easily be social-distanced--if we can just make undergraduate >>>>> classes the size of graduate seminars (with more classes outside in good >>>>> weather). But both solutions--universal online tertiary education and >>>>> extending the graduate seminar experience to undergraduates--will >>>>> inevitably hinge on the outcome of the struggle to make education an >>>>> intellectual public institution instead of a semi-intellectual luxury >>>>> brand, and this in turn will hinge on the struggle for preventive medicine >>>>> based on foresight instead of astonishment. >>>>> >>>>> Oi, Tom! (Way over on the other thread, so I have to shout!) >>>>> >>>>> Vygotsky writes a LOT about Spinoza; his sister was doing her PhD on >>>>> the guy when he was still in high school and he went to stay with her at >>>>> Moscow University and caught the bug. He was working on a vast tome on how >>>>> Spinoza's work could be retooled to give us a Marxist (materialist, monist, >>>>> but dialectical) theory of higher emotions when he died. We are translating >>>>> it all into Korean, and I am trying to write a preface. Spinoza believed in >>>>> sentient meat: "Deus, Sive Natura" ("God, that is to say, Nature...") Above >>>>> all, though, Spinoza believed that emotions are anything that increases or >>>>> decreases our ability to do things. The interesting thing, which I am still >>>>> trying to wrap my head around, is that one of those things that does this >>>>> is the idea of the emotion itself--the perezhivanie. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>> >>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QVwBIiClRdp9TWPmK9WGM9KfxQINeXHq68oJyEOQlH-i6SDmOvEQHPYBYxDbRZdWAdl4TA$ >>>>> >>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QVwBIiClRdp9TWPmK9WGM9KfxQINeXHq68oJyEOQlH-i6SDmOvEQHPYBYxDbRZd_eBvbXQ$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 10:51 PM Glassman, Michael < >>>>> glassman.13@osu.edu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hello David, Elizabeth, Annalisa, Rob, others, >>>>>> >>>>>> Well social presence and teacher presence are two completely >>>>>> different lines of research and thinking even though they sound alike. >>>>>> Teacher presence comes from localized classroom research while social >>>>>> presence comes from the communication field I believe sometime in the >>>>>> 1960s. Lately I have begun to think of teacher presence as similar to >>>>>> Bourdeiu's cultural capital. Our education system teaches certain groups of >>>>>> children how to read and get in sync with teachers from their more subtle >>>>>> physical signs so that they become more successful later in their school >>>>>> careers and in life. Many of the more successful children also get practice >>>>>> in reading these different signs at home. It is the old adage, don't listen >>>>>> to what I say, watch what I do. Social presence on the other hand is more >>>>>> related to our own understanding of our own communications and the value of >>>>>> those communications. We have a sense of what we are doing from those who >>>>>> are watching us (in the broad sense), and this sense changes as our sense >>>>>> of those who are watching us changes not only how we act but the investment >>>>>> we make in what we do changes accordingly. I see it all the time in >>>>>> teachers, who they are changes completely when they get up in from of a >>>>>> room of students. Just a mind experiment. The next time you read an XMCA >>>>>> post see if you can imagine a few of the members standing over your should >>>>>> observing you are you are reading with the expectation of some response. >>>>>> See how this might change your behavior. >>>>>> >>>>>> As for Zoom. I just think it is not a good tool for education and the >>>>>> reason we use it is illusory (because it recreates a place-based experience >>>>>> so we are more comfortable with it?). Zoom's purpose is not education in >>>>>> the sense of knowledge sharing and knowledge creation. Its proximal purpose >>>>>> I believe was to sell to corporations and such for meetings so they would >>>>>> not have to spend as much on travel. Its distal purpose, meeting platforms >>>>>> in general, was so individuals could engage in multiple activities related >>>>>> to the topic but not focused on the topic. I mean it is kind of cool, you >>>>>> can have a meeting where you wear a tie on top and boxer shorts below. And >>>>>> we are sometimes a talking head culture. But it is by nature very >>>>>> unilateral and expert oriented. Do we have to develop a whole new cultural >>>>>> capital oeuvre for Zoom meetings. We must make sure that those who are >>>>>> ahead stay ahead. Annalisa in answer to your question no education or Zoom, >>>>>> I worry about binary choices such as this. Maybe we should be asking >>>>>> ourselves how we got here in the first place. Why are these our only two >>>>>> choices right now, and many attempts using Meeting platforms are failing as >>>>>> they seem to be, how do we move forward from here. Why aren't we asking >>>>>> more questions, trying to understand how our great digital experiment is >>>>>> failing education. And speaking to Rob's poignant use of the term pink >>>>>> space, why is the lack of universal broadband dominating discussions. I >>>>>> think about the whole one to one movement and I really question why we >>>>>> leaped ahead to this without a reckoning over the need to have every corner >>>>>> of our society equitably wired (spoiler alert: because instead of >>>>>> corporations making oodles of money our society will have to spend oodles >>>>>> of money). So Annalisa I got back to your question, is it better to have no >>>>>> education or Zoom and I ask if you stepped on a nail would it be better to >>>>>> put on a band-aid to stop the bleeding or to figure our how to save your >>>>>> life (I know the answer will be both but where do I prioritize). >>>>>> >>>>>> Michael >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> On Behalf Of robsub@ariadne.org.uk >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 4:53 AM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" >>>>>> >>>>>> Just a couple of very quick observations. (I find regularly that by >>>>>> the time I have formulated my response to something, the conversation has >>>>>> moved on by several degrees, so I'm getting in quickly.) >>>>>> >>>>>> Firstly the link to your article on Ruqaiya didn't resolve, David. >>>>>> But I found it here: >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-UtouXiIa-kw$ >>>>>> . Thank you for that, though - looks well worth reading. >>>>>> >>>>>> Secondly, I always had the impression that Bernstein was resisted not >>>>>> because of his work on codes specifically, but because he was too prone to >>>>>> allowing his work to be used to justify class differentials, almost to the >>>>>> level of the poor keep themselves poor by deliberately restricting the >>>>>> language their children learn. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thirdly, meatspace. Hmmm. I'm toying with the idea of pinkspace. Less >>>>>> physically vulgar than meatspace and reflects the reality that the physical >>>>>> world, just like the online world, is dominated by those of us who are >>>>>> pink. Just a thought. Needs developing though. >>>>>> >>>>>> Rob >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2020-05-26 03:08, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>>> > Michael, Anthony, Elizabeth--and (of course) Annalisa: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I apologize for changing the threadline title AGAIN. I feel like >>>>>> the >>>>>> > five-year-old who is always unscrewing the back of the TV set to >>>>>> see >>>>>> > the little people inside; I was very dissatisfied withe the >>>>>> abstract >>>>>> > theory on the other line, according to which everything is >>>>>> everything >>>>>> > and mediation and unmediation are equally both and I wanted a way >>>>>> of >>>>>> > finding the people inside it. I thought the term "meatspace", which >>>>>> > Annalisa has heard before, captured that feeling pretty well (and >>>>>> > there are also some echoes of a corruscating book review I once >>>>>> read >>>>>> > in MCA titled something like "Yer askin' me to believe in sentient >>>>>> > MEAT????") >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Let's use Michael's categories of "teacher presence" and "social >>>>>> > presence" instead, so long as we keep in mind the point that >>>>>> Michael >>>>>> > made at the end, that is, the teacher is always present even when >>>>>> the >>>>>> > teacher is not present (as when the child is doing homework alone) >>>>>> and >>>>>> > the additional point that teacher presence is one kind of social >>>>>> > presence. But because presence and absence are (like mediated and >>>>>> > unmediated) equally both ungradeable categories, I would prefer to >>>>>> > talk about teacher distancing and social distancing. Michael >>>>>> Osterholm >>>>>> > has objected to the term social distancing for the same reasons I >>>>>> > raised earlier--it's a physical, mechanical distancing that >>>>>> actually >>>>>> > creates a higher form of solidarity (and that is why the elements >>>>>> of >>>>>> > society which oppose higher forms of solidarity oppose it). So I >>>>>> put >>>>>> > "social distancing" in scare quotes. But the teacher distancing is >>>>>> > real enough. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Real but not by itself of developmental significance. What worries >>>>>> me >>>>>> > is the possibility that we are adding to the kinds of inequalitiees >>>>>> > that Annalisa, Henry and Tom are talking about on the other thread. >>>>>> It >>>>>> > seems to me that teacher distancing differentially hurts some >>>>>> > populations. I disagree that Koreans are more homogeneous than >>>>>> other >>>>>> > cultures (in class terms significantly less so) and I also think >>>>>> that >>>>>> > if you were to sit through a lecture in the Korean language without >>>>>> > understanding Korean you would not agree that language is the least >>>>>> > important aspect of teacher presence. But (to bring these two >>>>>> > together) I think that students who are able to focus on language, >>>>>> and >>>>>> > on particular kinds of language, are disproportionately enabled in >>>>>> > conditions of teacher distancing. This is the issue that dare not >>>>>> > speak its name, for when Bernstein tried to raise it he was, as >>>>>> > Halliday noted, "driven out of the field". One of the reasons I >>>>>> wrote >>>>>> > the article linked below is that Ruqaiya Hasan was not. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > David Kellogg >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Sangmyung University >>>>>> > >>>>>> > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>>>> > Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>>> > >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie >>>>>> > >>>>>> w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d >>>>>> > 7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-Utot_Yz0eEQ$ [1] >>>>>> > >>>>>> > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: _L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>>>> > Works_ _Volume One: Foundations of Pedology_" >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 >>>>>> > >>>>>> 5270__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqO >>>>>> > DPVr-UtotPljj6rQ$ [2] >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Links: >>>>>> > ------ >>>>>> > [1] >>>>>> > >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie >>>>>> > >>>>>> w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zc >>>>>> > e9P2I5M_FZBJKElhGyP20UejX0w$ >>>>>> > [2] >>>>>> > >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 >>>>>> > >>>>>> 5270__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zce9P2I5M_FZB >>>>>> > JKElhGyP026P9-1A$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200529/6f985b2d/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Fri May 29 04:50:07 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 07:50:07 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ...kind of like guarding Lenin's tomb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Mike. I like this Franklin kid, and I never would've met him without you sharing that chapter. And here, in the closing paragraph, is one great answer to my question about "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities that likely support development: "Suddenly I recognize the difference between telling a child he must share and saying, 'Pretend you are a boy who knows how to share.' The first method announces that a child has done something wrong. 'Pretend' disarms and enchants: it suggests heroic possibilities for making changes, just as in the fairy tales." I hope we'll hear more ideas (be they role-playing or anything else) from many others on this listserv. Thanks everyone ~ Anthony P.S. I've done a lot of role-playing with middle and high school students, mainly via in-role writing, which they tend to enjoy and succeed at -- but I really can't evaluate it from a development perspective, or more specifically from a development-of-higher-psychological-functions perspective. Anyhow, a snapshot is here, and it's something that can likely be amended for any age: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/upoxpz__;!!Mih3wA!TUH9TLwmfw8pwJ5lHRr3-kPrfEl6T5CLUAQdZ11uTtm67tXMvbgGUy1AZFkuhNIO6Lr5Dw$ On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 1:52 PM mike cole wrote: > Great question (s), Anthony! > > Of the shiny top of my head I can identify another. This is from Vivian > Paley. > It explicitly answers the question of "is this a once and for all change, > or a bud that sprouted in just this one rare > circumstance." > Attached. > mike > > On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:53 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Dear educators of XMCA - >> >> I think I have a good question this time! To avoid redundancy, I >> searched the archives for answers and found an interesting thread from ten >> years ago. But I still want to ask this here: >> >> What kinds of "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of >> and/or used in order to support development? >> >> In this great little 2-minute clip, Mike Cole discusses Manuilenko's >> tomb-guarding experiment: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/znnvpz__;!!Mih3wA!TUH9TLwmfw8pwJ5lHRr3-kPrfEl6T5CLUAQdZ11uTtm67tXMvbgGUy1AZFkuhNIg10gd7A$ >> >> >> One can't help but try to think up other types of games (e.g., the Quiet >> Game on long car rides) that can function as cultural tools when the >> biological alone aren't cutting it. >> >> On a side note, the short video brought a number of questions to mind for >> me, such as: >> - where are 'the buds'? >> - what are the qualitative reorganizations here? >> - why are the buds (e.g, of volition) not yet present for the 3 >> year-olds, present for the 5 year-olds, and already flowered for the 8 >> year-olds? (ages are approximate, I know) >> - how temporary is the 5 year-olds' improved volition? Does it wear off? >> It is now 'activated' for good? >> - for the 8 year-olds, is volition fully developed for tasks such as >> standing still but still in the 'bud' stage for more demanding acts of will? >> >> But those side questions are not the target of this post. Instead, my >> question of the day is (I think a fun one): What kinds of "guarding >> Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of and/or used in order to >> support development? (Any age or stage or setting will do) >> >> Thank you, >> >> Anthony >> >> > > -- > > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, > translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TUH9TLwmfw8pwJ5lHRr3-kPrfEl6T5CLUAQdZ11uTtm67tXMvbgGUy1AZFkuhNJOTkEm2Q$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200529/58368210/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Fri May 29 06:25:18 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 09:25:18 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ...kind of like guarding Lenin's tomb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Huw. I have a six year old too. Why might a disinclination to be cast as a weaker performer be problematic? I am interested but also think I might be missing or misunderstanding something. Thanks again, Anthony On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 5:48 PM Huw Lloyd wrote: > There's an impressive account by Smirnova of a preschool class coming to > voluntarily take control of their quietude via a game of "who woke teddy?" > in JREEP 52/4. > > A challenge I have wth a near 6 year old is his emphasis upon wanting to > win games and consequent shyness with activities that cast him as a weaker > performer. > > Best, > Huw > > On Thu, 28 May 2020 at 18:52, mike cole wrote: > >> Great question (s), Anthony! >> >> Of the shiny top of my head I can identify another. This is from Vivian >> Paley. >> It explicitly answers the question of "is this a once and for all change, >> or a bud that sprouted in just this one rare >> circumstance." >> Attached. >> mike >> >> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:53 AM Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >>> Dear educators of XMCA - >>> >>> I think I have a good question this time! To avoid redundancy, I >>> searched the archives for answers and found an interesting thread from ten >>> years ago. But I still want to ask this here: >>> >>> What kinds of "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought >>> of and/or used in order to support development? >>> >>> In this great little 2-minute clip, Mike Cole discusses Manuilenko's >>> tomb-guarding experiment: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/znnvpz__;!!Mih3wA!RQhi2-0OWj1fIsxBpWiqqe-wte1NRJYYuSMSDqjBriVD9-2ihsRmzv154rq7b80dsyitXQ$ >>> >>> >>> One can't help but try to think up other types of games (e.g., the Quiet >>> Game on long car rides) that can function as cultural tools when the >>> biological alone aren't cutting it. >>> >>> On a side note, the short video brought a number of questions to mind >>> for me, such as: >>> - where are 'the buds'? >>> - what are the qualitative reorganizations here? >>> - why are the buds (e.g, of volition) not yet present for the 3 >>> year-olds, present for the 5 year-olds, and already flowered for the 8 >>> year-olds? (ages are approximate, I know) >>> - how temporary is the 5 year-olds' improved volition? Does it wear off? >>> It is now 'activated' for good? >>> - for the 8 year-olds, is volition fully developed for tasks such as >>> standing still but still in the 'bud' stage for more demanding acts of will? >>> >>> But those side questions are not the target of this post. Instead, my >>> question of the day is (I think a fun one): What kinds of "guarding >>> Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of and/or used in order to >>> support development? (Any age or stage or setting will do) >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, >> translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >> --------------------------------------------------- >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!RQhi2-0OWj1fIsxBpWiqqe-wte1NRJYYuSMSDqjBriVD9-2ihsRmzv154rq7b82brrlU0A$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200529/213b9072/attachment.html From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Fri May 29 06:39:52 2020 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 07:39:52 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ...kind of like guarding Lenin's tomb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anthony, Lois Holzman has done great work taking the power of "pretend" to older kids (high schoolers) with the East Side Institute and her development of social therapeutics. I find this to be particularly interesting since most Vygotskians tend to focus on younger age kids (as can be seen in all the examples mentioned thus far). Here is her personal page: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://loisholzman.org/__;!!Mih3wA!WA4uwGasMYG08uVm2oTKLYQBHRN28gSGkOSCR_7775VrqZ2aEcGTNk76YVIq9uNYxrIrlg$ (Esp. note her book Vygotsky at Work and Play.) And here is the page of of the East Side Institute: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://eastsideinstitute.org/__;!!Mih3wA!WA4uwGasMYG08uVm2oTKLYQBHRN28gSGkOSCR_7775VrqZ2aEcGTNk76YVIq9uNo29Oaug$ Would be great if you could get an interview with her - if you can catch her! -greg On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 5:53 AM Anthony Barra wrote: > Thanks, Mike. I like this Franklin kid, and I never would've met him > without you sharing that chapter. > > And here, in the closing paragraph, is one great answer to my question > about "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities that likely support > development: > "Suddenly I recognize the difference between telling a child he must share > and saying, 'Pretend you are a boy who knows how to share.' The first > method announces that a child has done something wrong. 'Pretend' disarms > and enchants: it suggests heroic possibilities for making changes, just as > in the fairy tales." > > I hope we'll hear more ideas (be they role-playing or anything else) from > many others on this listserv. > > Thanks everyone ~ > Anthony > > P.S. I've done a lot of role-playing with middle and high school students, > mainly via in-role writing, which they tend to enjoy and succeed at -- but > I really can't evaluate it from a development perspective, or more > specifically from a development-of-higher-psychological-functions > perspective. Anyhow, a snapshot is here, and it's something that can > likely be amended for any age: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/upoxpz__;!!Mih3wA!WA4uwGasMYG08uVm2oTKLYQBHRN28gSGkOSCR_7775VrqZ2aEcGTNk76YVIq9uP3BRsSlg$ > > > > > > > On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 1:52 PM mike cole wrote: > >> Great question (s), Anthony! >> >> Of the shiny top of my head I can identify another. This is from Vivian >> Paley. >> It explicitly answers the question of "is this a once and for all change, >> or a bud that sprouted in just this one rare >> circumstance." >> Attached. >> mike >> >> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:53 AM Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >>> Dear educators of XMCA - >>> >>> I think I have a good question this time! To avoid redundancy, I >>> searched the archives for answers and found an interesting thread from ten >>> years ago. But I still want to ask this here: >>> >>> What kinds of "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought >>> of and/or used in order to support development? >>> >>> In this great little 2-minute clip, Mike Cole discusses Manuilenko's >>> tomb-guarding experiment: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/znnvpz__;!!Mih3wA!WA4uwGasMYG08uVm2oTKLYQBHRN28gSGkOSCR_7775VrqZ2aEcGTNk76YVIq9uP7y5kK7A$ >>> >>> >>> One can't help but try to think up other types of games (e.g., the Quiet >>> Game on long car rides) that can function as cultural tools when the >>> biological alone aren't cutting it. >>> >>> On a side note, the short video brought a number of questions to mind >>> for me, such as: >>> - where are 'the buds'? >>> - what are the qualitative reorganizations here? >>> - why are the buds (e.g, of volition) not yet present for the 3 >>> year-olds, present for the 5 year-olds, and already flowered for the 8 >>> year-olds? (ages are approximate, I know) >>> - how temporary is the 5 year-olds' improved volition? Does it wear off? >>> It is now 'activated' for good? >>> - for the 8 year-olds, is volition fully developed for tasks such as >>> standing still but still in the 'bud' stage for more demanding acts of will? >>> >>> But those side questions are not the target of this post. Instead, my >>> question of the day is (I think a fun one): What kinds of "guarding >>> Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of and/or used in order to >>> support development? (Any age or stage or setting will do) >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, >> translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >> --------------------------------------------------- >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!WA4uwGasMYG08uVm2oTKLYQBHRN28gSGkOSCR_7775VrqZ2aEcGTNk76YVIq9uPhtis52w$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> >> >> -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!WA4uwGasMYG08uVm2oTKLYQBHRN28gSGkOSCR_7775VrqZ2aEcGTNk76YVIq9uMN90zk6w$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!WA4uwGasMYG08uVm2oTKLYQBHRN28gSGkOSCR_7775VrqZ2aEcGTNk76YVIq9uPrQ84lOg$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200529/7022c026/attachment.html From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Fri May 29 07:01:25 2020 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 08:01:25 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ...kind of like guarding Lenin's tomb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry, I neglected the link to what I think is one of the most impressive projects that Lois has been involved in, the Allstars Project: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://allstars.org/__;!!Mih3wA!QkjU-77lpmDqgQ5M0uKTjdBSHgpGnUia75S5I6QL1XNm2fMacxyYygNM8x2aFkJ7WAFzuQ$ -greg On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 7:39 AM Greg Thompson wrote: > Anthony, > > Lois Holzman has done great work taking the power of "pretend" to older > kids (high schoolers) with the East Side Institute and her development of > social therapeutics. I find this to be particularly interesting since most > Vygotskians tend to focus on younger age kids (as can be seen in all the > examples mentioned thus far). > > Here is her personal page: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://loisholzman.org/__;!!Mih3wA!QkjU-77lpmDqgQ5M0uKTjdBSHgpGnUia75S5I6QL1XNm2fMacxyYygNM8x2aFkIeM1JbCw$ > (Esp. note her book Vygotsky at Work and Play.) > > And here is the page of of the East Side Institute: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://eastsideinstitute.org/__;!!Mih3wA!QkjU-77lpmDqgQ5M0uKTjdBSHgpGnUia75S5I6QL1XNm2fMacxyYygNM8x2aFkJq269Skw$ > > Would be great if you could get an interview with her - if you can > catch her! > > -greg > > On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 5:53 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Thanks, Mike. I like this Franklin kid, and I never would've met him >> without you sharing that chapter. >> >> And here, in the closing paragraph, is one great answer to my question >> about "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities that likely support >> development: >> "Suddenly I recognize the difference between telling a child he must >> share and saying, 'Pretend you are a boy who knows how to share.' The >> first method announces that a child has done something wrong. 'Pretend' >> disarms and enchants: it suggests heroic possibilities for making changes, >> just as in the fairy tales." >> >> I hope we'll hear more ideas (be they role-playing or anything else) from >> many others on this listserv. >> >> Thanks everyone ~ >> Anthony >> >> P.S. I've done a lot of role-playing with middle and high school >> students, mainly via in-role writing, which they tend to enjoy and succeed >> at -- but I really can't evaluate it from a development perspective, or >> more specifically from a development-of-higher-psychological-functions >> perspective. Anyhow, a snapshot is here, and it's something that can >> likely be amended for any age: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/upoxpz__;!!Mih3wA!QkjU-77lpmDqgQ5M0uKTjdBSHgpGnUia75S5I6QL1XNm2fMacxyYygNM8x2aFkIH-ggRZg$ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 1:52 PM mike cole wrote: >> >>> Great question (s), Anthony! >>> >>> Of the shiny top of my head I can identify another. This is from Vivian >>> Paley. >>> It explicitly answers the question of "is this a once and for all >>> change, or a bud that sprouted in just this one rare >>> circumstance." >>> Attached. >>> mike >>> >>> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:53 AM Anthony Barra >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear educators of XMCA - >>>> >>>> I think I have a good question this time! To avoid redundancy, I >>>> searched the archives for answers and found an interesting thread from ten >>>> years ago. But I still want to ask this here: >>>> >>>> What kinds of "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought >>>> of and/or used in order to support development? >>>> >>>> In this great little 2-minute clip, Mike Cole discusses Manuilenko's >>>> tomb-guarding experiment: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/znnvpz__;!!Mih3wA!QkjU-77lpmDqgQ5M0uKTjdBSHgpGnUia75S5I6QL1XNm2fMacxyYygNM8x2aFkK22TsNrQ$ >>>> >>>> >>>> One can't help but try to think up other types of games (e.g., the >>>> Quiet Game on long car rides) that can function as cultural tools when the >>>> biological alone aren't cutting it. >>>> >>>> On a side note, the short video brought a number of questions to mind >>>> for me, such as: >>>> - where are 'the buds'? >>>> - what are the qualitative reorganizations here? >>>> - why are the buds (e.g, of volition) not yet present for the 3 >>>> year-olds, present for the 5 year-olds, and already flowered for the 8 >>>> year-olds? (ages are approximate, I know) >>>> - how temporary is the 5 year-olds' improved volition? Does it wear >>>> off? It is now 'activated' for good? >>>> - for the 8 year-olds, is volition fully developed for tasks such as >>>> standing still but still in the 'bud' stage for more demanding acts of will? >>>> >>>> But those side questions are not the target of this post. Instead, my >>>> question of the day is (I think a fun one): What kinds of "guarding >>>> Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of and/or used in order to >>>> support development? (Any age or stage or setting will do) >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> Anthony >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what >>> fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QkjU-77lpmDqgQ5M0uKTjdBSHgpGnUia75S5I6QL1XNm2fMacxyYygNM8x2aFkLUenHqCQ$ >>> >>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>> >>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>> >>> >>> >>> > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!QkjU-77lpmDqgQ5M0uKTjdBSHgpGnUia75S5I6QL1XNm2fMacxyYygNM8x2aFkJKQTm90A$ > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!QkjU-77lpmDqgQ5M0uKTjdBSHgpGnUia75S5I6QL1XNm2fMacxyYygNM8x2aFkIwDoB0xw$ > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!QkjU-77lpmDqgQ5M0uKTjdBSHgpGnUia75S5I6QL1XNm2fMacxyYygNM8x2aFkJKQTm90A$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!QkjU-77lpmDqgQ5M0uKTjdBSHgpGnUia75S5I6QL1XNm2fMacxyYygNM8x2aFkIwDoB0xw$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200529/6ada4eac/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Fri May 29 07:59:30 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 10:59:30 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] ...kind of like guarding Lenin's tomb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you, Greg. As I scan through these impressive sites, I am drawn more to the All Stars project, which reads as having no overt political slant. Just a personal preference, though I am looking forward to reading more and appreciate the heads-up. Also, this book blurb for *The Overweight Brain* is intriguing: "When educators shift our focus from knowing to growing, we help young people be all they can be." David J. Chard, PhD I'd prefer "knowing AND growing" but am interested in reading more. Thanks again, Anthony P.S. What might be an interview question you would ask? On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 10:04 AM Greg Thompson wrote: > Sorry, I neglected the link to what I think is one of the most impressive > projects that Lois has been involved in, the Allstars Project: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://allstars.org/__;!!Mih3wA!Qi3dH7y5Eq5JOu4dfCekZEnlbCVEwWHITzpR3SjbbXwW2EY-eKDBdW3rlxRRiwtbxeseWw$ > > > -greg > > On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 7:39 AM Greg Thompson > wrote: > >> Anthony, >> >> Lois Holzman has done great work taking the power of "pretend" to older >> kids (high schoolers) with the East Side Institute and her development of >> social therapeutics. I find this to be particularly interesting since most >> Vygotskians tend to focus on younger age kids (as can be seen in all the >> examples mentioned thus far). >> >> Here is her personal page: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://loisholzman.org/__;!!Mih3wA!Qi3dH7y5Eq5JOu4dfCekZEnlbCVEwWHITzpR3SjbbXwW2EY-eKDBdW3rlxRRiwtKcxGUng$ >> >> (Esp. note her book Vygotsky at Work and Play.) >> >> And here is the page of of the East Side Institute: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://eastsideinstitute.org/__;!!Mih3wA!Qi3dH7y5Eq5JOu4dfCekZEnlbCVEwWHITzpR3SjbbXwW2EY-eKDBdW3rlxRRiwuGjuvIOA$ >> >> >> Would be great if you could get an interview with her - if you can >> catch her! >> >> -greg >> >> On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 5:53 AM Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks, Mike. I like this Franklin kid, and I never would've met him >>> without you sharing that chapter. >>> >>> And here, in the closing paragraph, is one great answer to my question >>> about "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities that likely support >>> development: >>> "Suddenly I recognize the difference between telling a child he must >>> share and saying, 'Pretend you are a boy who knows how to share.' The >>> first method announces that a child has done something wrong. 'Pretend' >>> disarms and enchants: it suggests heroic possibilities for making changes, >>> just as in the fairy tales." >>> >>> I hope we'll hear more ideas (be they role-playing or anything else) >>> from many others on this listserv. >>> >>> Thanks everyone ~ >>> Anthony >>> >>> P.S. I've done a lot of role-playing with middle and high school >>> students, mainly via in-role writing, which they tend to enjoy and succeed >>> at -- but I really can't evaluate it from a development perspective, or >>> more specifically from a development-of-higher-psychological-functions >>> perspective. Anyhow, a snapshot is here, and it's something that can >>> likely be amended for any age: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/upoxpz__;!!Mih3wA!Qi3dH7y5Eq5JOu4dfCekZEnlbCVEwWHITzpR3SjbbXwW2EY-eKDBdW3rlxRRiws9AEKC_w$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 1:52 PM mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> Great question (s), Anthony! >>>> >>>> Of the shiny top of my head I can identify another. This is from Vivian >>>> Paley. >>>> It explicitly answers the question of "is this a once and for all >>>> change, or a bud that sprouted in just this one rare >>>> circumstance." >>>> Attached. >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:53 AM Anthony Barra >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear educators of XMCA - >>>>> >>>>> I think I have a good question this time! To avoid redundancy, I >>>>> searched the archives for answers and found an interesting thread from ten >>>>> years ago. But I still want to ask this here: >>>>> >>>>> What kinds of "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought >>>>> of and/or used in order to support development? >>>>> >>>>> In this great little 2-minute clip, Mike Cole discusses Manuilenko's >>>>> tomb-guarding experiment: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/znnvpz__;!!Mih3wA!Qi3dH7y5Eq5JOu4dfCekZEnlbCVEwWHITzpR3SjbbXwW2EY-eKDBdW3rlxRRiwtTZXHsww$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> One can't help but try to think up other types of games (e.g., the >>>>> Quiet Game on long car rides) that can function as cultural tools when the >>>>> biological alone aren't cutting it. >>>>> >>>>> On a side note, the short video brought a number of questions to mind >>>>> for me, such as: >>>>> - where are 'the buds'? >>>>> - what are the qualitative reorganizations here? >>>>> - why are the buds (e.g, of volition) not yet present for the 3 >>>>> year-olds, present for the 5 year-olds, and already flowered for the 8 >>>>> year-olds? (ages are approximate, I know) >>>>> - how temporary is the 5 year-olds' improved volition? Does it wear >>>>> off? It is now 'activated' for good? >>>>> - for the 8 year-olds, is volition fully developed for tasks such as >>>>> standing still but still in the 'bud' stage for more demanding acts of will? >>>>> >>>>> But those side questions are not the target of this post. Instead, my >>>>> question of the day is (I think a fun one): What kinds of "guarding >>>>> Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of and/or used in order to >>>>> support development? (Any age or stage or setting will do) >>>>> >>>>> Thank you, >>>>> >>>>> Anthony >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what >>>> fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Qi3dH7y5Eq5JOu4dfCekZEnlbCVEwWHITzpR3SjbbXwW2EY-eKDBdW3rlxRRiwtQTX-y0w$ >>>> >>>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>>> >>>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!Qi3dH7y5Eq5JOu4dfCekZEnlbCVEwWHITzpR3SjbbXwW2EY-eKDBdW3rlxRRiwuIZa162g$ >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!Qi3dH7y5Eq5JOu4dfCekZEnlbCVEwWHITzpR3SjbbXwW2EY-eKDBdW3rlxRRiwvHVp3nRg$ >> >> > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!Qi3dH7y5Eq5JOu4dfCekZEnlbCVEwWHITzpR3SjbbXwW2EY-eKDBdW3rlxRRiwuIZa162g$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!Qi3dH7y5Eq5JOu4dfCekZEnlbCVEwWHITzpR3SjbbXwW2EY-eKDBdW3rlxRRiwvHVp3nRg$ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200529/44628196/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri May 29 08:07:47 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 16:07:47 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ...kind of like guarding Lenin's tomb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Anthony, If a child predicates their enjoyment on winning, then they will tend to avoid anything that they believe casts them in a bad light. They end up being over-confident about some activities and under-confident about others. Whereas what is sought is true confidence which comes from understanding the nature of understanding, and is best supported by enjoyment in doing. The enjoyment-in-winning is an external, frequently superficial, measure, the enjoyment-in-doing is one's own internal measure which carries its own sense and meaning. Best, Huw On Fri, 29 May 2020 at 14:27, Anthony Barra wrote: > Thanks, Huw. > > I have a six year old too. Why might a disinclination to be cast as a > weaker performer be problematic? I am interested but also think I might be > missing or misunderstanding something. > > Thanks again, > > Anthony > > > > On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 5:48 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >> There's an impressive account by Smirnova of a preschool class coming to >> voluntarily take control of their quietude via a game of "who woke teddy?" >> in JREEP 52/4. >> >> A challenge I have wth a near 6 year old is his emphasis upon wanting to >> win games and consequent shyness with activities that cast him as a weaker >> performer. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> On Thu, 28 May 2020 at 18:52, mike cole wrote: >> >>> Great question (s), Anthony! >>> >>> Of the shiny top of my head I can identify another. This is from Vivian >>> Paley. >>> It explicitly answers the question of "is this a once and for all >>> change, or a bud that sprouted in just this one rare >>> circumstance." >>> Attached. >>> mike >>> >>> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:53 AM Anthony Barra >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear educators of XMCA - >>>> >>>> I think I have a good question this time! To avoid redundancy, I >>>> searched the archives for answers and found an interesting thread from ten >>>> years ago. But I still want to ask this here: >>>> >>>> What kinds of "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought >>>> of and/or used in order to support development? >>>> >>>> In this great little 2-minute clip, Mike Cole discusses Manuilenko's >>>> tomb-guarding experiment: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/znnvpz__;!!Mih3wA!RjHVucoBwvA0K3IHaHaMQcqhHGPB6NWuHUsQQ6xIHaetvho-hFNYFKTwM675LFJvG2M7zw$ >>>> >>>> >>>> One can't help but try to think up other types of games (e.g., the >>>> Quiet Game on long car rides) that can function as cultural tools when the >>>> biological alone aren't cutting it. >>>> >>>> On a side note, the short video brought a number of questions to mind >>>> for me, such as: >>>> - where are 'the buds'? >>>> - what are the qualitative reorganizations here? >>>> - why are the buds (e.g, of volition) not yet present for the 3 >>>> year-olds, present for the 5 year-olds, and already flowered for the 8 >>>> year-olds? (ages are approximate, I know) >>>> - how temporary is the 5 year-olds' improved volition? Does it wear >>>> off? It is now 'activated' for good? >>>> - for the 8 year-olds, is volition fully developed for tasks such as >>>> standing still but still in the 'bud' stage for more demanding acts of will? >>>> >>>> But those side questions are not the target of this post. Instead, my >>>> question of the day is (I think a fun one): What kinds of "guarding >>>> Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of and/or used in order to >>>> support development? (Any age or stage or setting will do) >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> Anthony >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what >>> fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!RjHVucoBwvA0K3IHaHaMQcqhHGPB6NWuHUsQQ6xIHaetvho-hFNYFKTwM675LFKvh2DyHA$ >>> >>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>> >>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200529/a8f4eb22/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Fri May 29 08:28:34 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 11:28:34 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ...kind of like guarding Lenin's tomb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes. And winning is generally more fun than losing -- all other things being equal. What do you think of this quotation? I think it's interesting: "Imagine that the goal of life isn't to win the game. The goal of human life, in some sense, is to with the *set* of all possible games; in order to win the set of all possible games, you don't need to win any particular game. You have to play in a manner that ensures that you'll be invited to play more and more games." The full context is here; it's a very quick read (a youth sports anecdote), like 90 seconds or so: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bit.ly/2XdQEFF__;!!Mih3wA!XzDIU8Xkoo3EdYtzN9jRUtNPmuN6pIXRX7nTJQPXKsuc_xKReATPNseCToxtzmO52yUEng$ Thanks again, Huw. Anthony On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 11:10 AM Huw Lloyd wrote: > Hi Anthony, > > If a child predicates their enjoyment on winning, then they will tend to > avoid anything that they believe casts them in a bad light. They end up > being over-confident about some activities and under-confident about > others. Whereas what is sought is true confidence which comes from > understanding the nature of understanding, and is best supported by > enjoyment in doing. The enjoyment-in-winning is an external, > frequently superficial, measure, the enjoyment-in-doing is one's own > internal measure which carries its own sense and meaning. > > Best, > Huw > > > > On Fri, 29 May 2020 at 14:27, Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Thanks, Huw. >> >> I have a six year old too. Why might a disinclination to be cast as a >> weaker performer be problematic? I am interested but also think I might be >> missing or misunderstanding something. >> >> Thanks again, >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 5:48 PM Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >> >>> There's an impressive account by Smirnova of a preschool class coming to >>> voluntarily take control of their quietude via a game of "who woke teddy?" >>> in JREEP 52/4. >>> >>> A challenge I have wth a near 6 year old is his emphasis upon wanting to >>> win games and consequent shyness with activities that cast him as a weaker >>> performer. >>> >>> Best, >>> Huw >>> >>> On Thu, 28 May 2020 at 18:52, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> Great question (s), Anthony! >>>> >>>> Of the shiny top of my head I can identify another. This is from Vivian >>>> Paley. >>>> It explicitly answers the question of "is this a once and for all >>>> change, or a bud that sprouted in just this one rare >>>> circumstance." >>>> Attached. >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:53 AM Anthony Barra >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear educators of XMCA - >>>>> >>>>> I think I have a good question this time! To avoid redundancy, I >>>>> searched the archives for answers and found an interesting thread from ten >>>>> years ago. But I still want to ask this here: >>>>> >>>>> What kinds of "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought >>>>> of and/or used in order to support development? >>>>> >>>>> In this great little 2-minute clip, Mike Cole discusses Manuilenko's >>>>> tomb-guarding experiment: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/znnvpz__;!!Mih3wA!XzDIU8Xkoo3EdYtzN9jRUtNPmuN6pIXRX7nTJQPXKsuc_xKReATPNseCToxtzmOWT-KG_g$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> One can't help but try to think up other types of games (e.g., the >>>>> Quiet Game on long car rides) that can function as cultural tools when the >>>>> biological alone aren't cutting it. >>>>> >>>>> On a side note, the short video brought a number of questions to mind >>>>> for me, such as: >>>>> - where are 'the buds'? >>>>> - what are the qualitative reorganizations here? >>>>> - why are the buds (e.g, of volition) not yet present for the 3 >>>>> year-olds, present for the 5 year-olds, and already flowered for the 8 >>>>> year-olds? (ages are approximate, I know) >>>>> - how temporary is the 5 year-olds' improved volition? Does it wear >>>>> off? It is now 'activated' for good? >>>>> - for the 8 year-olds, is volition fully developed for tasks such as >>>>> standing still but still in the 'bud' stage for more demanding acts of will? >>>>> >>>>> But those side questions are not the target of this post. Instead, my >>>>> question of the day is (I think a fun one): What kinds of "guarding >>>>> Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of and/or used in order to >>>>> support development? (Any age or stage or setting will do) >>>>> >>>>> Thank you, >>>>> >>>>> Anthony >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what >>>> fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XzDIU8Xkoo3EdYtzN9jRUtNPmuN6pIXRX7nTJQPXKsuc_xKReATPNseCToxtzmNwgeEF9A$ >>>> >>>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>>> >>>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200529/7d361d04/attachment.html From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Fri May 29 08:39:00 2020 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 09:39:00 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ...kind of like guarding Lenin's tomb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anthony, Of course it would be best if you read her work before interviewing her. Lots of questions come to mind: -how does this connect with Vygotskyian theory? -can you describe some of the successes of the All Stars project? -what is social therapeutics? -what is "play" in adolescence? in adulthood? Also, I don't think that Lois is opposed to knowing and knowledge, she is just suggesting a "shift in focus". Again, probably best if you had a read of the book before speculating too much about what she *might* mean. -greg p.s. why does everything have to be about winning? (I would venture to say that Life is NOT a competition). Can't we imagine playing games that aren't about winning? I think that is a big part of Lois' project to get us out of the stupidity of thinking that joy is somehow connected to winning/losing. Perhaps that was your point Anthony, but it wasn't especially clear. And/or is this too "political" of a point since it is the beginnings of a critique of capitalism? On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 9:03 AM Anthony Barra wrote: > Thank you, Greg. > > As I scan through these impressive sites, I am drawn more to the All Stars > project, which reads as having no overt political slant. > Just a personal preference, though I am looking forward to reading more > and appreciate the heads-up. > > Also, this book blurb for *The Overweight Brain* is intriguing: "When > educators shift our focus from knowing to growing, we help young people be > all they can be." David J. Chard, PhD > I'd prefer "knowing AND growing" but am interested in reading more. > > Thanks again, > > Anthony > > P.S. What might be an interview question you would ask? > > > On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 10:04 AM Greg Thompson > wrote: > >> Sorry, I neglected the link to what I think is one of the most impressive >> projects that Lois has been involved in, the Allstars Project: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://allstars.org/__;!!Mih3wA!SmC7mVkbNzBF6a9N8zlzr8PqBf50lSPgkDPazwZNuAEG9t64Vqncu1v4mR9Pa6tgU5X4gw$ >> >> >> -greg >> >> On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 7:39 AM Greg Thompson >> wrote: >> >>> Anthony, >>> >>> Lois Holzman has done great work taking the power of "pretend" to older >>> kids (high schoolers) with the East Side Institute and her development of >>> social therapeutics. I find this to be particularly interesting since most >>> Vygotskians tend to focus on younger age kids (as can be seen in all the >>> examples mentioned thus far). >>> >>> Here is her personal page: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://loisholzman.org/__;!!Mih3wA!SmC7mVkbNzBF6a9N8zlzr8PqBf50lSPgkDPazwZNuAEG9t64Vqncu1v4mR9Pa6v2J_Rm9Q$ >>> >>> (Esp. note her book Vygotsky at Work and Play.) >>> >>> And here is the page of of the East Side Institute: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://eastsideinstitute.org/__;!!Mih3wA!SmC7mVkbNzBF6a9N8zlzr8PqBf50lSPgkDPazwZNuAEG9t64Vqncu1v4mR9Pa6vskHXqHw$ >>> >>> >>> Would be great if you could get an interview with her - if you can >>> catch her! >>> >>> -greg >>> >>> On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 5:53 AM Anthony Barra >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks, Mike. I like this Franklin kid, and I never would've met him >>>> without you sharing that chapter. >>>> >>>> And here, in the closing paragraph, is one great answer to my question >>>> about "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities that likely support >>>> development: >>>> "Suddenly I recognize the difference between telling a child he must >>>> share and saying, 'Pretend you are a boy who knows how to share.' The >>>> first method announces that a child has done something wrong. 'Pretend' >>>> disarms and enchants: it suggests heroic possibilities for making changes, >>>> just as in the fairy tales." >>>> >>>> I hope we'll hear more ideas (be they role-playing or anything else) >>>> from many others on this listserv. >>>> >>>> Thanks everyone ~ >>>> Anthony >>>> >>>> P.S. I've done a lot of role-playing with middle and high school >>>> students, mainly via in-role writing, which they tend to enjoy and succeed >>>> at -- but I really can't evaluate it from a development perspective, or >>>> more specifically from a development-of-higher-psychological-functions >>>> perspective. Anyhow, a snapshot is here, and it's something that can >>>> likely be amended for any age: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/upoxpz__;!!Mih3wA!SmC7mVkbNzBF6a9N8zlzr8PqBf50lSPgkDPazwZNuAEG9t64Vqncu1v4mR9Pa6t0q6xSwg$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 1:52 PM mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>>> Great question (s), Anthony! >>>>> >>>>> Of the shiny top of my head I can identify another. This is from >>>>> Vivian Paley. >>>>> It explicitly answers the question of "is this a once and for all >>>>> change, or a bud that sprouted in just this one rare >>>>> circumstance." >>>>> Attached. >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:53 AM Anthony Barra >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear educators of XMCA - >>>>>> >>>>>> I think I have a good question this time! To avoid redundancy, I >>>>>> searched the archives for answers and found an interesting thread from ten >>>>>> years ago. But I still want to ask this here: >>>>>> >>>>>> What kinds of "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities have you >>>>>> thought of and/or used in order to support development? >>>>>> >>>>>> In this great little 2-minute clip, Mike Cole discusses Manuilenko's >>>>>> tomb-guarding experiment: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/znnvpz__;!!Mih3wA!SmC7mVkbNzBF6a9N8zlzr8PqBf50lSPgkDPazwZNuAEG9t64Vqncu1v4mR9Pa6uJjTII4w$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> One can't help but try to think up other types of games (e.g., the >>>>>> Quiet Game on long car rides) that can function as cultural tools when the >>>>>> biological alone aren't cutting it. >>>>>> >>>>>> On a side note, the short video brought a number of questions to mind >>>>>> for me, such as: >>>>>> - where are 'the buds'? >>>>>> - what are the qualitative reorganizations here? >>>>>> - why are the buds (e.g, of volition) not yet present for the 3 >>>>>> year-olds, present for the 5 year-olds, and already flowered for the 8 >>>>>> year-olds? (ages are approximate, I know) >>>>>> - how temporary is the 5 year-olds' improved volition? Does it wear >>>>>> off? It is now 'activated' for good? >>>>>> - for the 8 year-olds, is volition fully developed for tasks such as >>>>>> standing still but still in the 'bud' stage for more demanding acts of will? >>>>>> >>>>>> But those side questions are not the target of this post. Instead, my >>>>>> question of the day is (I think a fun one): What kinds of "guarding >>>>>> Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of and/or used in order to >>>>>> support development? (Any age or stage or setting will do) >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you, >>>>>> >>>>>> Anthony >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what >>>>> fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!SmC7mVkbNzBF6a9N8zlzr8PqBf50lSPgkDPazwZNuAEG9t64Vqncu1v4mR9Pa6uLEGremA$ >>>>> >>>>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>>>> >>>>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>>>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!SmC7mVkbNzBF6a9N8zlzr8PqBf50lSPgkDPazwZNuAEG9t64Vqncu1v4mR9Pa6t-WzUMOw$ >>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!SmC7mVkbNzBF6a9N8zlzr8PqBf50lSPgkDPazwZNuAEG9t64Vqncu1v4mR9Pa6vSg5fWQw$ >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!SmC7mVkbNzBF6a9N8zlzr8PqBf50lSPgkDPazwZNuAEG9t64Vqncu1v4mR9Pa6t-WzUMOw$ >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!SmC7mVkbNzBF6a9N8zlzr8PqBf50lSPgkDPazwZNuAEG9t64Vqncu1v4mR9Pa6vSg5fWQw$ >> >> > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!SmC7mVkbNzBF6a9N8zlzr8PqBf50lSPgkDPazwZNuAEG9t64Vqncu1v4mR9Pa6t-WzUMOw$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!SmC7mVkbNzBF6a9N8zlzr8PqBf50lSPgkDPazwZNuAEG9t64Vqncu1v4mR9Pa6vSg5fWQw$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200529/89cef4a4/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri May 29 08:44:09 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 16:44:09 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ...kind of like guarding Lenin's tomb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, to win as in to gain, which is about mastery. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=win__;!!Mih3wA!TvIqQYgJ5qPvUOa7EbV5KXcJmE-jbwNNru2fEGAQrxLjls5vdL9jGSJLBzhzZAImpjMWHA$ And, incidentally, https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=confidence__;!!Mih3wA!TvIqQYgJ5qPvUOa7EbV5KXcJmE-jbwNNru2fEGAQrxLjls5vdL9jGSJLBzhzZAItvdbE3w$ But as a life goal, that is something else beyond psychology. :) Best, Huw On Fri, 29 May 2020 at 16:31, Anthony Barra wrote: > Yes. And winning is generally more fun than losing -- all other things > being equal. > > What do you think of this quotation? I think it's interesting: "Imagine > that the goal of life isn't to win the game. The goal of human life, in > some sense, is to with the *set* of all possible games; in order to win the > set of all possible games, you don't need to win any particular game. You > have to play in a manner that ensures that you'll be invited to play more > and more games." > > The full context is here; it's a very quick read (a youth sports > anecdote), like 90 seconds or so: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bit.ly/2XdQEFF__;!!Mih3wA!TvIqQYgJ5qPvUOa7EbV5KXcJmE-jbwNNru2fEGAQrxLjls5vdL9jGSJLBzhzZAKa5vXB_g$ > > > Thanks again, Huw. > > Anthony > > > On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 11:10 AM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >> Hi Anthony, >> >> If a child predicates their enjoyment on winning, then they will tend to >> avoid anything that they believe casts them in a bad light. They end up >> being over-confident about some activities and under-confident about >> others. Whereas what is sought is true confidence which comes from >> understanding the nature of understanding, and is best supported by >> enjoyment in doing. The enjoyment-in-winning is an external, >> frequently superficial, measure, the enjoyment-in-doing is one's own >> internal measure which carries its own sense and meaning. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> >> >> On Fri, 29 May 2020 at 14:27, Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks, Huw. >>> >>> I have a six year old too. Why might a disinclination to be cast as a >>> weaker performer be problematic? I am interested but also think I might be >>> missing or misunderstanding something. >>> >>> Thanks again, >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 5:48 PM Huw Lloyd >>> wrote: >>> >>>> There's an impressive account by Smirnova of a preschool class coming >>>> to voluntarily take control of their quietude via a game of "who woke >>>> teddy?" in JREEP 52/4. >>>> >>>> A challenge I have wth a near 6 year old is his emphasis upon wanting >>>> to win games and consequent shyness with activities that cast him as a >>>> weaker performer. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Huw >>>> >>>> On Thu, 28 May 2020 at 18:52, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>>> Great question (s), Anthony! >>>>> >>>>> Of the shiny top of my head I can identify another. This is from >>>>> Vivian Paley. >>>>> It explicitly answers the question of "is this a once and for all >>>>> change, or a bud that sprouted in just this one rare >>>>> circumstance." >>>>> Attached. >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:53 AM Anthony Barra >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear educators of XMCA - >>>>>> >>>>>> I think I have a good question this time! To avoid redundancy, I >>>>>> searched the archives for answers and found an interesting thread from ten >>>>>> years ago. But I still want to ask this here: >>>>>> >>>>>> What kinds of "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities have you >>>>>> thought of and/or used in order to support development? >>>>>> >>>>>> In this great little 2-minute clip, Mike Cole discusses Manuilenko's >>>>>> tomb-guarding experiment: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/znnvpz__;!!Mih3wA!TvIqQYgJ5qPvUOa7EbV5KXcJmE-jbwNNru2fEGAQrxLjls5vdL9jGSJLBzhzZAI-T9cxwQ$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> One can't help but try to think up other types of games (e.g., the >>>>>> Quiet Game on long car rides) that can function as cultural tools when the >>>>>> biological alone aren't cutting it. >>>>>> >>>>>> On a side note, the short video brought a number of questions to mind >>>>>> for me, such as: >>>>>> - where are 'the buds'? >>>>>> - what are the qualitative reorganizations here? >>>>>> - why are the buds (e.g, of volition) not yet present for the 3 >>>>>> year-olds, present for the 5 year-olds, and already flowered for the 8 >>>>>> year-olds? (ages are approximate, I know) >>>>>> - how temporary is the 5 year-olds' improved volition? Does it wear >>>>>> off? It is now 'activated' for good? >>>>>> - for the 8 year-olds, is volition fully developed for tasks such as >>>>>> standing still but still in the 'bud' stage for more demanding acts of will? >>>>>> >>>>>> But those side questions are not the target of this post. Instead, my >>>>>> question of the day is (I think a fun one): What kinds of "guarding >>>>>> Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of and/or used in order to >>>>>> support development? (Any age or stage or setting will do) >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you, >>>>>> >>>>>> Anthony >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what >>>>> fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TvIqQYgJ5qPvUOa7EbV5KXcJmE-jbwNNru2fEGAQrxLjls5vdL9jGSJLBzhzZAK0tABQNg$ >>>>> >>>>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>>>> >>>>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>>>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200529/dcb7a3c4/attachment.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Fri May 29 09:04:26 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 16:04:26 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] MCA news and call Message-ID: <302B645B-D90E-4A9A-827B-DAEAF90EB575@uio.no> Dear Colleagues, First and foremost, we hope this note finds you safe and well. It?s been a stressful time for all. We are writing to share some news from Mind, Culture and Activity. The first is that we have recently relaunched an online platform, Cultural Praxis, which we hope will provide extended opportunities for scholars and practitioners to share and develop ideas in formats other than peer-review articles. We believe such alternative and varied forms of scholarly engagement are particularly relevant in these new times, where innovative and urgent actions are needed. We hope that you and your networks will find this site relevant and, hopefully, will consider submitting your own work, news, or events to be published on it. We are particularly anxious to provide a voice for the younger scholars just coming into the field. Secondly, we have just published a special editorial, where we make an urgent call to scholars and practitioners invested in issues of human learning and development to address the pressing global issues of sustainability, authoritarianism and social injustice that developments such as climate change and the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic are making so painfully visible/palpable. You can read our call here, which we hope you will respond to in any ways you find possible and interesting. In that editorial, we also provide more detail on the newly launched website Cultural Praxis and the recent publications there and in the journal. Any questions, feedback, or suggestions on how to better address these or any other issues are welcome. Yours, The MCA editorial team. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200529/7a5c6407/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Fri May 29 09:38:44 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 12:38:44 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ...kind of like guarding Lenin's tomb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Greg. I am far from the clearest writer, true. I think the "life as a series of iterated 'games'" stuff is rooted in an evolutionary game theory approach, but I'm really not qualified to comment on that much at all. But I do think the "try to play in a way that gets you invited back to the game" stuff is nice; it also seems to be one of this listserv's many positive traits (and likely one that has contributed to its vibrancy and longevity -- people play nice here, sometimes aggressively, sometimes to win, but from what I see almost always nicely -- and productively). I don't think life is merely a series of games (literally or figuratively) -- but the "game" filter does have its pros and cons, as does the "play" filter, the "winners/losers" filter, and the "power" filter. Each with its costs and affordances. Thanks again, Anthony On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 11:42 AM Greg Thompson wrote: > Anthony, > Of course it would be best if you read her work before interviewing her. > > Lots of questions come to mind: > -how does this connect with Vygotskyian theory? > -can you describe some of the successes of the All Stars project? > -what is social therapeutics? > -what is "play" in adolescence? in adulthood? > > Also, I don't think that Lois is opposed to knowing and knowledge, she is > just suggesting a "shift in focus". Again, probably best if you had a read > of the book before speculating too much about what she *might* mean. > > -greg > > p.s. why does everything have to be about winning? (I would venture to say > that Life is NOT a competition). Can't we imagine playing games that aren't > about winning? I think that is a big part of Lois' project to get us out of > the stupidity of thinking that joy is somehow connected to winning/losing. > Perhaps that was your point Anthony, but it wasn't especially clear. > And/or is this too "political" of a point since it is the beginnings of a > critique of capitalism? > > > On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 9:03 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Thank you, Greg. >> >> As I scan through these impressive sites, I am drawn more to the All >> Stars project, which reads as having no overt political slant. >> Just a personal preference, though I am looking forward to reading more >> and appreciate the heads-up. >> >> Also, this book blurb for *The Overweight Brain* is intriguing: "When >> educators shift our focus from knowing to growing, we help young people be >> all they can be." David J. Chard, PhD >> I'd prefer "knowing AND growing" but am interested in reading more. >> >> Thanks again, >> >> Anthony >> >> P.S. What might be an interview question you would ask? >> >> >> On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 10:04 AM Greg Thompson >> wrote: >> >>> Sorry, I neglected the link to what I think is one of the most >>> impressive projects that Lois has been involved in, the Allstars Project: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://allstars.org/__;!!Mih3wA!WIDggX7mtaFmGO-waiLMiPwYEUeBNM_dUkervfPfYa3F8pEuclg2Bb7K_KadbiTLozg2GA$ >>> >>> >>> -greg >>> >>> On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 7:39 AM Greg Thompson >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Anthony, >>>> >>>> Lois Holzman has done great work taking the power of "pretend" to older >>>> kids (high schoolers) with the East Side Institute and her development of >>>> social therapeutics. I find this to be particularly interesting since most >>>> Vygotskians tend to focus on younger age kids (as can be seen in all the >>>> examples mentioned thus far). >>>> >>>> Here is her personal page: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://loisholzman.org/__;!!Mih3wA!WIDggX7mtaFmGO-waiLMiPwYEUeBNM_dUkervfPfYa3F8pEuclg2Bb7K_KadbiRqkPJv-Q$ >>>> >>>> (Esp. note her book Vygotsky at Work and Play.) >>>> >>>> And here is the page of of the East Side Institute: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://eastsideinstitute.org/__;!!Mih3wA!WIDggX7mtaFmGO-waiLMiPwYEUeBNM_dUkervfPfYa3F8pEuclg2Bb7K_KadbiSwgXOkpw$ >>>> >>>> >>>> Would be great if you could get an interview with her - if you can >>>> catch her! >>>> >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 5:53 AM Anthony Barra >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thanks, Mike. I like this Franklin kid, and I never would've met him >>>>> without you sharing that chapter. >>>>> >>>>> And here, in the closing paragraph, is one great answer to my question >>>>> about "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities that likely support >>>>> development: >>>>> "Suddenly I recognize the difference between telling a child he must >>>>> share and saying, 'Pretend you are a boy who knows how to share.' The >>>>> first method announces that a child has done something wrong. 'Pretend' >>>>> disarms and enchants: it suggests heroic possibilities for making changes, >>>>> just as in the fairy tales." >>>>> >>>>> I hope we'll hear more ideas (be they role-playing or anything else) >>>>> from many others on this listserv. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks everyone ~ >>>>> Anthony >>>>> >>>>> P.S. I've done a lot of role-playing with middle and high school >>>>> students, mainly via in-role writing, which they tend to enjoy and succeed >>>>> at -- but I really can't evaluate it from a development perspective, or >>>>> more specifically from a development-of-higher-psychological-functions >>>>> perspective. Anyhow, a snapshot is here, and it's something that can >>>>> likely be amended for any age: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/upoxpz__;!!Mih3wA!WIDggX7mtaFmGO-waiLMiPwYEUeBNM_dUkervfPfYa3F8pEuclg2Bb7K_KadbiQFPExqNA$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 1:52 PM mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Great question (s), Anthony! >>>>>> >>>>>> Of the shiny top of my head I can identify another. This is from >>>>>> Vivian Paley. >>>>>> It explicitly answers the question of "is this a once and for all >>>>>> change, or a bud that sprouted in just this one rare >>>>>> circumstance." >>>>>> Attached. >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:53 AM Anthony Barra < >>>>>> anthonymbarra@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear educators of XMCA - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think I have a good question this time! To avoid redundancy, I >>>>>>> searched the archives for answers and found an interesting thread from ten >>>>>>> years ago. But I still want to ask this here: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What kinds of "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities have you >>>>>>> thought of and/or used in order to support development? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In this great little 2-minute clip, Mike Cole discusses Manuilenko's >>>>>>> tomb-guarding experiment: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/znnvpz__;!!Mih3wA!WIDggX7mtaFmGO-waiLMiPwYEUeBNM_dUkervfPfYa3F8pEuclg2Bb7K_KadbiQW_VUgTg$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One can't help but try to think up other types of games (e.g., the >>>>>>> Quiet Game on long car rides) that can function as cultural tools when the >>>>>>> biological alone aren't cutting it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On a side note, the short video brought a number of questions to >>>>>>> mind for me, such as: >>>>>>> - where are 'the buds'? >>>>>>> - what are the qualitative reorganizations here? >>>>>>> - why are the buds (e.g, of volition) not yet present for the 3 >>>>>>> year-olds, present for the 5 year-olds, and already flowered for the 8 >>>>>>> year-olds? (ages are approximate, I know) >>>>>>> - how temporary is the 5 year-olds' improved volition? Does it wear >>>>>>> off? It is now 'activated' for good? >>>>>>> - for the 8 year-olds, is volition fully developed for tasks such as >>>>>>> standing still but still in the 'bud' stage for more demanding acts of will? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But those side questions are not the target of this post. Instead, >>>>>>> my question of the day is (I think a fun one): What kinds of "guarding >>>>>>> Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of and/or used in order to >>>>>>> support development? (Any age or stage or setting will do) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anthony >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what >>>>>> fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!WIDggX7mtaFmGO-waiLMiPwYEUeBNM_dUkervfPfYa3F8pEuclg2Bb7K_KadbiQb8mUaCg$ >>>>>> >>>>>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>>>>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!WIDggX7mtaFmGO-waiLMiPwYEUeBNM_dUkervfPfYa3F8pEuclg2Bb7K_KadbiR2LgMkxA$ >>>> >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!WIDggX7mtaFmGO-waiLMiPwYEUeBNM_dUkervfPfYa3F8pEuclg2Bb7K_KadbiQq8Rn2Bg$ >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!WIDggX7mtaFmGO-waiLMiPwYEUeBNM_dUkervfPfYa3F8pEuclg2Bb7K_KadbiR2LgMkxA$ >>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!WIDggX7mtaFmGO-waiLMiPwYEUeBNM_dUkervfPfYa3F8pEuclg2Bb7K_KadbiQq8Rn2Bg$ >>> >>> >> > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!WIDggX7mtaFmGO-waiLMiPwYEUeBNM_dUkervfPfYa3F8pEuclg2Bb7K_KadbiR2LgMkxA$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!WIDggX7mtaFmGO-waiLMiPwYEUeBNM_dUkervfPfYa3F8pEuclg2Bb7K_KadbiQq8Rn2Bg$ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200529/7e30d3fb/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Fri May 29 09:55:43 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 16:55:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ...kind of like guarding Lenin's tomb In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hello all needle threaders, The mention of competition and its connection to capitalism is poignant, Greg. I have memories as a child loathing win-lose games, even if I won, I hated it. Because it meant making my peers feel bad that they lost. I trust that there are likely a lot of kids who have feelings like this but there is no channel by which to reveal this because kids don't communicate well when they are young, because they may not even know themselves how they feel about something, much less to communicate it. This is why adult interactions is so valuable, for being able to discuss complexities like that (at least complex in the mind of the child). Our culture rewards zero-sum games more than it should, but is there in existence a radar-like tool to detect other complicated feelings that come up about comparison with peers or other models that children are measured by as they develop? One of the reasons I loved Sesame Street (and still do) is that there was a modeling for talking about difficult feelings through the muppets and their relationships with the real people (the adult actors) and with each other: Think Ernie and Bert. The message that is so valuable is "You are OK as you are, no matter how different, no matter what you can or cannot do, you are still OK." Which I would guess, if successful, would be internalized into: "I am OK as I am, no matter how different, no matter what I can or cannot do, I am still OK." When that message is possessed and deeply rooted, the individual child need not "have" confidence, if only because there is a distinction between "being" and "having." "Having" can be taken away. "Being" is, well .... being! Might someone could clue me in on the game Guarding Lenin's Tomb? I have never heard of this game. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Huw Lloyd Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 9:44 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ...kind of like guarding Lenin's tomb [EXTERNAL] Yes, to win as in to gain, which is about mastery. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=win__;!!Mih3wA!X_Dula8oYqnKnKvgw_isKnagxnVh4way_po-s1_cPMwufYX6_Pfcwq5g48C4f3qomY1New$ And, incidentally, https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=confidence__;!!Mih3wA!X_Dula8oYqnKnKvgw_isKnagxnVh4way_po-s1_cPMwufYX6_Pfcwq5g48C4f3qJM1azxQ$ But as a life goal, that is something else beyond psychology. :) Best, Huw On Fri, 29 May 2020 at 16:31, Anthony Barra > wrote: Yes. And winning is generally more fun than losing -- all other things being equal. What do you think of this quotation? I think it's interesting: "Imagine that the goal of life isn't to win the game. The goal of human life, in some sense, is to with the *set* of all possible games; in order to win the set of all possible games, you don't need to win any particular game. You have to play in a manner that ensures that you'll be invited to play more and more games." The full context is here; it's a very quick read (a youth sports anecdote), like 90 seconds or so: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bit.ly/2XdQEFF__;!!Mih3wA!X_Dula8oYqnKnKvgw_isKnagxnVh4way_po-s1_cPMwufYX6_Pfcwq5g48C4f3oPbvWRqQ$ Thanks again, Huw. Anthony On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 11:10 AM Huw Lloyd > wrote: Hi Anthony, If a child predicates their enjoyment on winning, then they will tend to avoid anything that they believe casts them in a bad light. They end up being over-confident about some activities and under-confident about others. Whereas what is sought is true confidence which comes from understanding the nature of understanding, and is best supported by enjoyment in doing. The enjoyment-in-winning is an external, frequently superficial, measure, the enjoyment-in-doing is one's own internal measure which carries its own sense and meaning. Best, Huw On Fri, 29 May 2020 at 14:27, Anthony Barra > wrote: Thanks, Huw. I have a six year old too. Why might a disinclination to be cast as a weaker performer be problematic? I am interested but also think I might be missing or misunderstanding something. Thanks again, Anthony On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 5:48 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: There's an impressive account by Smirnova of a preschool class coming to voluntarily take control of their quietude via a game of "who woke teddy?" in JREEP 52/4. A challenge I have wth a near 6 year old is his emphasis upon wanting to win games and consequent shyness with activities that cast him as a weaker performer. Best, Huw On Thu, 28 May 2020 at 18:52, mike cole > wrote: Great question (s), Anthony! Of the shiny top of my head I can identify another. This is from Vivian Paley. It explicitly answers the question of "is this a once and for all change, or a bud that sprouted in just this one rare circumstance." Attached. mike On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:53 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: Dear educators of XMCA - I think I have a good question this time! To avoid redundancy, I searched the archives for answers and found an interesting thread from ten years ago. But I still want to ask this here: What kinds of "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of and/or used in order to support development? In this great little 2-minute clip, Mike Cole discusses Manuilenko's tomb-guarding experiment: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/znnvpz__;!!Mih3wA!X_Dula8oYqnKnKvgw_isKnagxnVh4way_po-s1_cPMwufYX6_Pfcwq5g48C4f3oHpJ4d4Q$ One can't help but try to think up other types of games (e.g., the Quiet Game on long car rides) that can function as cultural tools when the biological alone aren't cutting it. On a side note, the short video brought a number of questions to mind for me, such as: - where are 'the buds'? - what are the qualitative reorganizations here? - why are the buds (e.g, of volition) not yet present for the 3 year-olds, present for the 5 year-olds, and already flowered for the 8 year-olds? (ages are approximate, I know) - how temporary is the 5 year-olds' improved volition? Does it wear off? It is now 'activated' for good? - for the 8 year-olds, is volition fully developed for tasks such as standing still but still in the 'bud' stage for more demanding acts of will? But those side questions are not the target of this post. Instead, my question of the day is (I think a fun one): What kinds of "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of and/or used in order to support development? (Any age or stage or setting will do) Thank you, Anthony -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!X_Dula8oYqnKnKvgw_isKnagxnVh4way_po-s1_cPMwufYX6_Pfcwq5g48C4f3pVRyssWw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200529/5d6a2166/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Fri May 29 10:02:08 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 17:02:08 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ...kind of like guarding Lenin's tomb In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Anthony, I love that word, AFFORDANCES! ? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Anthony Barra Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 10:38 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ...kind of like guarding Lenin's tomb [EXTERNAL] Thanks, Greg. I am far from the clearest writer, true. I think the "life as a series of iterated 'games'" stuff is rooted in an evolutionary game theory approach, but I'm really not qualified to comment on that much at all. But I do think the "try to play in a way that gets you invited back to the game" stuff is nice; it also seems to be one of this listserv's many positive traits (and likely one that has contributed to its vibrancy and longevity -- people play nice here, sometimes aggressively, sometimes to win, but from what I see almost always nicely -- and productively). I don't think life is merely a series of games (literally or figuratively) -- but the "game" filter does have its pros and cons, as does the "play" filter, the "winners/losers" filter, and the "power" filter. Each with its costs and affordances. Thanks again, Anthony On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 11:42 AM Greg Thompson > wrote: Anthony, Of course it would be best if you read her work before interviewing her. Lots of questions come to mind: -how does this connect with Vygotskyian theory? -can you describe some of the successes of the All Stars project? -what is social therapeutics? -what is "play" in adolescence? in adulthood? Also, I don't think that Lois is opposed to knowing and knowledge, she is just suggesting a "shift in focus". Again, probably best if you had a read of the book before speculating too much about what she *might* mean. -greg p.s. why does everything have to be about winning? (I would venture to say that Life is NOT a competition). Can't we imagine playing games that aren't about winning? I think that is a big part of Lois' project to get us out of the stupidity of thinking that joy is somehow connected to winning/losing. Perhaps that was your point Anthony, but it wasn't especially clear. And/or is this too "political" of a point since it is the beginnings of a critique of capitalism? On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 9:03 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: Thank you, Greg. As I scan through these impressive sites, I am drawn more to the All Stars project, which reads as having no overt political slant. Just a personal preference, though I am looking forward to reading more and appreciate the heads-up. Also, this book blurb for The Overweight Brain is intriguing: "When educators shift our focus from knowing to growing, we help young people be all they can be." David J. Chard, PhD I'd prefer "knowing AND growing" but am interested in reading more. Thanks again, Anthony P.S. What might be an interview question you would ask? On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 10:04 AM Greg Thompson > wrote: Sorry, I neglected the link to what I think is one of the most impressive projects that Lois has been involved in, the Allstars Project: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://allstars.org/__;!!Mih3wA!Ue3X3jGs-dfosvnY--hg-m_W7xWP0F8AsnLDD29z6Ug-poiYiQLidre_xzL36Mvp3mvJwg$ -greg On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 7:39 AM Greg Thompson > wrote: Anthony, Lois Holzman has done great work taking the power of "pretend" to older kids (high schoolers) with the East Side Institute and her development of social therapeutics. I find this to be particularly interesting since most Vygotskians tend to focus on younger age kids (as can be seen in all the examples mentioned thus far). Here is her personal page: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://loisholzman.org/__;!!Mih3wA!Ue3X3jGs-dfosvnY--hg-m_W7xWP0F8AsnLDD29z6Ug-poiYiQLidre_xzL36Mudj0rE9Q$ (Esp. note her book Vygotsky at Work and Play.) And here is the page of of the East Side Institute: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://eastsideinstitute.org/__;!!Mih3wA!Ue3X3jGs-dfosvnY--hg-m_W7xWP0F8AsnLDD29z6Ug-poiYiQLidre_xzL36MtNowMA_w$ Would be great if you could get an interview with her - if you can catch her! -greg On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 5:53 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: Thanks, Mike. I like this Franklin kid, and I never would've met him without you sharing that chapter. And here, in the closing paragraph, is one great answer to my question about "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities that likely support development: "Suddenly I recognize the difference between telling a child he must share and saying, 'Pretend you are a boy who knows how to share.' The first method announces that a child has done something wrong. 'Pretend' disarms and enchants: it suggests heroic possibilities for making changes, just as in the fairy tales." I hope we'll hear more ideas (be they role-playing or anything else) from many others on this listserv. Thanks everyone ~ Anthony P.S. I've done a lot of role-playing with middle and high school students, mainly via in-role writing, which they tend to enjoy and succeed at -- but I really can't evaluate it from a development perspective, or more specifically from a development-of-higher-psychological-functions perspective. Anyhow, a snapshot is here, and it's something that can likely be amended for any age: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/upoxpz__;!!Mih3wA!Ue3X3jGs-dfosvnY--hg-m_W7xWP0F8AsnLDD29z6Ug-poiYiQLidre_xzL36MuXjBQ_dQ$ On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 1:52 PM mike cole > wrote: Great question (s), Anthony! Of the shiny top of my head I can identify another. This is from Vivian Paley. It explicitly answers the question of "is this a once and for all change, or a bud that sprouted in just this one rare circumstance." Attached. mike On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:53 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: Dear educators of XMCA - I think I have a good question this time! To avoid redundancy, I searched the archives for answers and found an interesting thread from ten years ago. But I still want to ask this here: What kinds of "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of and/or used in order to support development? In this great little 2-minute clip, Mike Cole discusses Manuilenko's tomb-guarding experiment: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/znnvpz__;!!Mih3wA!Ue3X3jGs-dfosvnY--hg-m_W7xWP0F8AsnLDD29z6Ug-poiYiQLidre_xzL36MtHOb0zgQ$ One can't help but try to think up other types of games (e.g., the Quiet Game on long car rides) that can function as cultural tools when the biological alone aren't cutting it. On a side note, the short video brought a number of questions to mind for me, such as: - where are 'the buds'? - what are the qualitative reorganizations here? - why are the buds (e.g, of volition) not yet present for the 3 year-olds, present for the 5 year-olds, and already flowered for the 8 year-olds? (ages are approximate, I know) - how temporary is the 5 year-olds' improved volition? Does it wear off? It is now 'activated' for good? - for the 8 year-olds, is volition fully developed for tasks such as standing still but still in the 'bud' stage for more demanding acts of will? But those side questions are not the target of this post. Instead, my question of the day is (I think a fun one): What kinds of "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of and/or used in order to support development? (Any age or stage or setting will do) Thank you, Anthony -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Ue3X3jGs-dfosvnY--hg-m_W7xWP0F8AsnLDD29z6Ug-poiYiQLidre_xzL36MsiwqcQkg$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!Ue3X3jGs-dfosvnY--hg-m_W7xWP0F8AsnLDD29z6Ug-poiYiQLidre_xzL36Mvc0kyuBw$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!Ue3X3jGs-dfosvnY--hg-m_W7xWP0F8AsnLDD29z6Ug-poiYiQLidre_xzL36MvGsOrpkQ$ -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!Ue3X3jGs-dfosvnY--hg-m_W7xWP0F8AsnLDD29z6Ug-poiYiQLidre_xzL36Mvc0kyuBw$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!Ue3X3jGs-dfosvnY--hg-m_W7xWP0F8AsnLDD29z6Ug-poiYiQLidre_xzL36MvGsOrpkQ$ -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!Ue3X3jGs-dfosvnY--hg-m_W7xWP0F8AsnLDD29z6Ug-poiYiQLidre_xzL36Mvc0kyuBw$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!Ue3X3jGs-dfosvnY--hg-m_W7xWP0F8AsnLDD29z6Ug-poiYiQLidre_xzL36MvGsOrpkQ$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200529/03b9ecad/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri May 29 10:17:00 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 11:17:00 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ...kind of like guarding Lenin's tomb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very interesting, Greg. Thank you! Henry > On May 29, 2020, at 8:01 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > Sorry, I neglected the link to what I think is one of the most impressive projects that Lois has been involved in, the Allstars Project: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://allstars.org/__;!!Mih3wA!X-YY3-pqtUtqrK4JJL7OWRikOx_0OwgMjY_nCwVC0GWSCfkMfaKBTqa-Nc9Mt7yTb2DgRw$ > > -greg > > On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 7:39 AM Greg Thompson > wrote: > Anthony, > > Lois Holzman has done great work taking the power of "pretend" to older kids (high schoolers) with the East Side Institute and her development of social therapeutics. I find this to be particularly interesting since most Vygotskians tend to focus on younger age kids (as can be seen in all the examples mentioned thus far). > > Here is her personal page: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://loisholzman.org/__;!!Mih3wA!X-YY3-pqtUtqrK4JJL7OWRikOx_0OwgMjY_nCwVC0GWSCfkMfaKBTqa-Nc9Mt7yp_IR4gQ$ > (Esp. note her book Vygotsky at Work and Play.) > > And here is the page of of the East Side Institute: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://eastsideinstitute.org/__;!!Mih3wA!X-YY3-pqtUtqrK4JJL7OWRikOx_0OwgMjY_nCwVC0GWSCfkMfaKBTqa-Nc9Mt7yglFkQ0w$ > > Would be great if you could get an interview with her - if you can catch her! > > -greg > > On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 5:53 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > Thanks, Mike. I like this Franklin kid, and I never would've met him without you sharing that chapter. > > And here, in the closing paragraph, is one great answer to my question about "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities that likely support development: > "Suddenly I recognize the difference between telling a child he must share and saying, 'Pretend you are a boy who knows how to share.' The first method announces that a child has done something wrong. 'Pretend' disarms and enchants: it suggests heroic possibilities for making changes, just as in the fairy tales." > > I hope we'll hear more ideas (be they role-playing or anything else) from many others on this listserv. > > Thanks everyone ~ > Anthony > > P.S. I've done a lot of role-playing with middle and high school students, mainly via in-role writing, which they tend to enjoy and succeed at -- but I really can't evaluate it from a development perspective, or more specifically from a development-of-higher-psychological-functions perspective. Anyhow, a snapshot is here, and it's something that can likely be amended for any age: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/upoxpz__;!!Mih3wA!X-YY3-pqtUtqrK4JJL7OWRikOx_0OwgMjY_nCwVC0GWSCfkMfaKBTqa-Nc9Mt7yRm0KY8A$ > > > > > > On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 1:52 PM mike cole > wrote: > Great question (s), Anthony! > > Of the shiny top of my head I can identify another. This is from Vivian Paley. > It explicitly answers the question of "is this a once and for all change, or a bud that sprouted in just this one rare > circumstance." > Attached. > mike > > On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:53 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > Dear educators of XMCA - > > I think I have a good question this time! To avoid redundancy, I searched the archives for answers and found an interesting thread from ten years ago. But I still want to ask this here: > > What kinds of "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of and/or used in order to support development? > > In this great little 2-minute clip, Mike Cole discusses Manuilenko's tomb-guarding experiment: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/znnvpz__;!!Mih3wA!X-YY3-pqtUtqrK4JJL7OWRikOx_0OwgMjY_nCwVC0GWSCfkMfaKBTqa-Nc9Mt7yhUGfPFQ$ > > One can't help but try to think up other types of games (e.g., the Quiet Game on long car rides) that can function as cultural tools when the biological alone aren't cutting it. > > On a side note, the short video brought a number of questions to mind for me, such as: > - where are 'the buds'? > - what are the qualitative reorganizations here? > - why are the buds (e.g, of volition) not yet present for the 3 year-olds, present for the 5 year-olds, and already flowered for the 8 year-olds? (ages are approximate, I know) > - how temporary is the 5 year-olds' improved volition? Does it wear off? It is now 'activated' for good? > - for the 8 year-olds, is volition fully developed for tasks such as standing still but still in the 'bud' stage for more demanding acts of will? > > But those side questions are not the target of this post. Instead, my question of the day is (I think a fun one): What kinds of "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of and/or used in order to support development? (Any age or stage or setting will do) > > Thank you, > > Anthony > > > > -- > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!X-YY3-pqtUtqrK4JJL7OWRikOx_0OwgMjY_nCwVC0GWSCfkMfaKBTqa-Nc9Mt7xAexUn3w$ > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu . > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!X-YY3-pqtUtqrK4JJL7OWRikOx_0OwgMjY_nCwVC0GWSCfkMfaKBTqa-Nc9Mt7zs7fS2iQ$ > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!X-YY3-pqtUtqrK4JJL7OWRikOx_0OwgMjY_nCwVC0GWSCfkMfaKBTqa-Nc9Mt7zp1xNUAg$ > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!X-YY3-pqtUtqrK4JJL7OWRikOx_0OwgMjY_nCwVC0GWSCfkMfaKBTqa-Nc9Mt7zs7fS2iQ$ > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!X-YY3-pqtUtqrK4JJL7OWRikOx_0OwgMjY_nCwVC0GWSCfkMfaKBTqa-Nc9Mt7zp1xNUAg$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200529/5e17d987/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri May 29 10:31:41 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 11:31:41 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ...kind of like guarding Lenin's tomb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10429581-8189-46EE-9487-7DCC163C65D1@gmail.com> There?s a research, I believe at Stanford, who has followed classroom learning under two ?treatments?. In simple strokes: One group is told, ?Very good, you?re smart.? The other, ?Very good, so good you worked so hard on that.? The second group has greater ?gains?. Some other research, that I think is resonant is the work on ?deliberate practice? and elite performance. In a nutshell, the value of homework is determined by amount and quality. So far, the chat has focussed on what goes on in the classroom. What happens outside the classroom is just as important. Henry > On May 29, 2020, at 9:07 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > Hi Anthony, > > If a child predicates their enjoyment on winning, then they will tend to avoid anything that they believe casts them in a bad light. They end up being over-confident about some activities and under-confident about others. Whereas what is sought is true confidence which comes from understanding the nature of understanding, and is best supported by enjoyment in doing. The enjoyment-in-winning is an external, frequently superficial, measure, the enjoyment-in-doing is one's own internal measure which carries its own sense and meaning. > > Best, > Huw > > > > On Fri, 29 May 2020 at 14:27, Anthony Barra > wrote: > Thanks, Huw. > > I have a six year old too. Why might a disinclination to be cast as a weaker performer be problematic? I am interested but also think I might be missing or misunderstanding something. > > Thanks again, > > Anthony > > > > On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 5:48 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > There's an impressive account by Smirnova of a preschool class coming to voluntarily take control of their quietude via a game of "who woke teddy?" in JREEP 52/4. > > A challenge I have wth a near 6 year old is his emphasis upon wanting to win games and consequent shyness with activities that cast him as a weaker performer. > > Best, > Huw > > On Thu, 28 May 2020 at 18:52, mike cole > wrote: > Great question (s), Anthony! > > Of the shiny top of my head I can identify another. This is from Vivian Paley. > It explicitly answers the question of "is this a once and for all change, or a bud that sprouted in just this one rare > circumstance." > Attached. > mike > > On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:53 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > Dear educators of XMCA - > > I think I have a good question this time! To avoid redundancy, I searched the archives for answers and found an interesting thread from ten years ago. But I still want to ask this here: > > What kinds of "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of and/or used in order to support development? > > In this great little 2-minute clip, Mike Cole discusses Manuilenko's tomb-guarding experiment: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/znnvpz__;!!Mih3wA!V05w-sVORvPym45XHB7uYa5xGyX57GqrCIt3BkRjljM7vHJOR57PLYPTzByVQfioglTVDQ$ > > One can't help but try to think up other types of games (e.g., the Quiet Game on long car rides) that can function as cultural tools when the biological alone aren't cutting it. > > On a side note, the short video brought a number of questions to mind for me, such as: > - where are 'the buds'? > - what are the qualitative reorganizations here? > - why are the buds (e.g, of volition) not yet present for the 3 year-olds, present for the 5 year-olds, and already flowered for the 8 year-olds? (ages are approximate, I know) > - how temporary is the 5 year-olds' improved volition? Does it wear off? It is now 'activated' for good? > - for the 8 year-olds, is volition fully developed for tasks such as standing still but still in the 'bud' stage for more demanding acts of will? > > But those side questions are not the target of this post. Instead, my question of the day is (I think a fun one): What kinds of "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of and/or used in order to support development? (Any age or stage or setting will do) > > Thank you, > > Anthony > > > > -- > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!V05w-sVORvPym45XHB7uYa5xGyX57GqrCIt3BkRjljM7vHJOR57PLYPTzByVQfgCvit6qw$ > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu . > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200529/ccea5ecb/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Fri May 29 11:33:11 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 14:33:11 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ...kind of like guarding Lenin's tomb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Annalisa, Here is the short clip that sparked this thread: Mike Cole discussing Manuilenko's tomb-guarding experiment: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/znnvpz__;!!Mih3wA!Qwe3pRHKFQn2ZX2IjP-4NrnaYWzpp26D76r1a1ac_L-fVrp2GiCQYebNJP4LutA68YDL0g$ I like it very much. Enjoy ~ On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 12:57 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello all needle threaders, > > The mention of competition and its connection to capitalism is poignant, > Greg. > > I have memories as a child loathing win-lose games, even if I won, I hated > it. Because it meant making my peers feel bad that they lost. > > I trust that there are likely a lot of kids who have feelings like this > but there is no channel by which to reveal this because kids don't > communicate well when they are young, because they may not even know > themselves how they feel about something, much less to communicate it. This > is why adult interactions is so valuable, for being able to discuss > complexities like that (at least complex in the mind of the child). > > Our culture rewards zero-sum games more than it should, but is there in > existence a radar-like tool to detect other complicated feelings that come > up about comparison with peers or other models that children are measured > by as they develop? > > One of the reasons I loved Sesame Street (and still do) is that there was > a modeling for talking about difficult feelings through the muppets and > their relationships with the real people (the adult actors) and with each > other: Think Ernie and Bert. > > The message that is so valuable is "You are OK as you are, no matter how > different, no matter what you can or cannot do, you are still OK." > > Which I would guess, if successful, would be internalized into: > > "I am OK as I am, no matter how different, no matter what I can or cannot > do, I am still OK." > > When that message is possessed and deeply rooted, the individual child > need not "have" confidence, if only because there is a distinction between > "being" and "having." > > "Having" can be taken away. "Being" is, well .... being! > > Might someone could clue me in on the game Guarding Lenin's Tomb? I have > never heard of this game. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Huw Lloyd > *Sent:* Friday, May 29, 2020 9:44 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: ...kind of like guarding Lenin's tomb > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Yes, to win as in to gain, which is about mastery. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=win__;!!Mih3wA!Qwe3pRHKFQn2ZX2IjP-4NrnaYWzpp26D76r1a1ac_L-fVrp2GiCQYebNJP4LutC_J5qNhg$ > > > And, incidentally, > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=confidence__;!!Mih3wA!Qwe3pRHKFQn2ZX2IjP-4NrnaYWzpp26D76r1a1ac_L-fVrp2GiCQYebNJP4LutCDSZ5UNw$ > > > But as a life goal, that is something else beyond psychology. :) > > Best, > Huw > > > On Fri, 29 May 2020 at 16:31, Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Yes. And winning is generally more fun than losing -- all other things > being equal. > > What do you think of this quotation? I think it's interesting: "Imagine > that the goal of life isn't to win the game. The goal of human life, in > some sense, is to with the *set* of all possible games; in order to win the > set of all possible games, you don't need to win any particular game. You > have to play in a manner that ensures that you'll be invited to play more > and more games." > > The full context is here; it's a very quick read (a youth sports > anecdote), like 90 seconds or so: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bit.ly/2XdQEFF__;!!Mih3wA!Qwe3pRHKFQn2ZX2IjP-4NrnaYWzpp26D76r1a1ac_L-fVrp2GiCQYebNJP4LutD0qcuLrw$ > > > Thanks again, Huw. > > Anthony > > > On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 11:10 AM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > Hi Anthony, > > If a child predicates their enjoyment on winning, then they will tend to > avoid anything that they believe casts them in a bad light. They end up > being over-confident about some activities and under-confident about > others. Whereas what is sought is true confidence which comes from > understanding the nature of understanding, and is best supported by > enjoyment in doing. The enjoyment-in-winning is an external, > frequently superficial, measure, the enjoyment-in-doing is one's own > internal measure which carries its own sense and meaning. > > Best, > Huw > > > > On Fri, 29 May 2020 at 14:27, Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Thanks, Huw. > > I have a six year old too. Why might a disinclination to be cast as a > weaker performer be problematic? I am interested but also think I might be > missing or misunderstanding something. > > Thanks again, > > Anthony > > > > On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 5:48 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > There's an impressive account by Smirnova of a preschool class coming to > voluntarily take control of their quietude via a game of "who woke teddy?" > in JREEP 52/4. > > A challenge I have wth a near 6 year old is his emphasis upon wanting to > win games and consequent shyness with activities that cast him as a weaker > performer. > > Best, > Huw > > On Thu, 28 May 2020 at 18:52, mike cole wrote: > > Great question (s), Anthony! > > Of the shiny top of my head I can identify another. This is from Vivian > Paley. > It explicitly answers the question of "is this a once and for all change, > or a bud that sprouted in just this one rare > circumstance." > Attached. > mike > > On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:53 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Dear educators of XMCA - > > I think I have a good question this time! To avoid redundancy, I searched > the archives for answers and found an interesting thread from ten years > ago. But I still want to ask this here: > > What kinds of "guarding Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of > and/or used in order to support development? > > In this great little 2-minute clip, Mike Cole discusses Manuilenko's > tomb-guarding experiment: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/znnvpz__;!!Mih3wA!Qwe3pRHKFQn2ZX2IjP-4NrnaYWzpp26D76r1a1ac_L-fVrp2GiCQYebNJP4LutA68YDL0g$ > > > One can't help but try to think up other types of games (e.g., the Quiet > Game on long car rides) that can function as cultural tools when the > biological alone aren't cutting it. > > On a side note, the short video brought a number of questions to mind for > me, such as: > - where are 'the buds'? > - what are the qualitative reorganizations here? > - why are the buds (e.g, of volition) not yet present for the 3 year-olds, > present for the 5 year-olds, and already flowered for the 8 year-olds? > (ages are approximate, I know) > - how temporary is the 5 year-olds' improved volition? Does it wear off? > It is now 'activated' for good? > - for the 8 year-olds, is volition fully developed for tasks such as > standing still but still in the 'bud' stage for more demanding acts of will? > > But those side questions are not the target of this post. Instead, my > question of the day is (I think a fun one): What kinds of "guarding > Lenin's tomb" type activities have you thought of and/or used in order to > support development? (Any age or stage or setting will do) > > Thank you, > > Anthony > > > > -- > > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, > translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Qwe3pRHKFQn2ZX2IjP-4NrnaYWzpp26D76r1a1ac_L-fVrp2GiCQYebNJP4LutDEgkzjFg$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200529/ce9c063a/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat May 30 20:41:54 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 12:41:54 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Huw-- Sorry, I'm afraid I can't quite follow the grammar. You are saying that I leave it up to the students as to whether I do what I preach? Well, I try not to preach at all. But I have said--in print and in this space--that development in the pedological sense cannot apply to adults, and the people I teach are adults. I think that even if they were not adults, I would have to be careful. There isn't really any important sense in which I am the "ideal form" to Korean kids: their speech in Korean is generally more developed than my own. Ditto their culture. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QexqUu1vvwoAjg3OR4RcFr8HmzuO9tgnipdVbIDBMJY4jVD3bOwC6mve3kquNTDS39YV6Q$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QexqUu1vvwoAjg3OR4RcFr8HmzuO9tgnipdVbIDBMJY4jVD3bOwC6mve3kquNTDv-5cQtw$ On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 4:10 PM Huw Lloyd wrote: > Thanks, David. > > So it seems you leave it up to the students as to whether they take a > deeper approach to the subject rather than approach the whole course > developmentally, bluntly: whether you do what you preach. > > On Fri, 29 May 2020 at 01:47, David Kellogg wrote: > >> Huw-- >> >> Weirdly, the two things are connected. One reason that (unmarried) >> professors were allowed to date their students back in China was that >> grades were rigorously objective and not, in the end, of much consequence: >> everybody was getting an assigned job no matter what. >> >> There was no grading at all in elementary school when I first arrived in >> Korea in 1997. Now there are standardized tests but these are not really >> graded, and it is always emphasized that they are for the purpose of >> evaluating the schools and the teachers and not the children. In middle >> school and high school, grades become extremely important, but not as any >> proxy for interest in subject matter: the government has been trying to >> weaken the grip of the college entrance exam on admissions and one way to >> do this is to allow about two thirds of students into university without >> taking exams, just on the strenght of grades and "performance evaluation" >> (the source of GREAT corruption in Korean society at present. >> >> Me? I am a great believer in grade inflation: during the term I threaten >> the students quite shamelessly and at the end of the term I always give >> students the maximum possible grade, stressing that it is not actually >> connected to achievement or merit or anything except my sincere desire to >> see the end of the grading system as a whole. The students are a little >> taken aback, but they play along. Isn't that what grading is really about? >> To make it a proxy for interest in the subject matter is a little like >> making spelling a procksie for meening. >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QexqUu1vvwoAjg3OR4RcFr8HmzuO9tgnipdVbIDBMJY4jVD3bOwC6mve3kquNTDS39YV6Q$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QexqUu1vvwoAjg3OR4RcFr8HmzuO9tgnipdVbIDBMJY4jVD3bOwC6mve3kquNTDv-5cQtw$ >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 6:24 AM Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >> >>> Hi David, >>> >>> I think you skipped over the attachment to grades as a proxy for >>> interest in the subject. And I am curious whether you do anything about >>> that. >>> >>> Huw >>> >>> On Wed, 27 May 2020 at 22:20, David Kellogg >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Spinoza says that passions (in the sense of something you undergo, c.f. >>>> "the passion of the Christ") are feelings that increase or decrease the >>>> capacity of the body for action or the idea of the feeling (!). And, alas, >>>> I just gave you a pretty good example >>>> As Mike points out, there are ways of dealing with the unfair attacks >>>> on Bernstein's legacy that increase the capacity for action many times. >>>> These tend to be based on the idea of the feeling, and you can find a lot >>>> of them in the LCHC autobiography and elsewhere. I think you cannot find >>>> them in the attached article, because I am still undergoing some passion >>>> over this: for me it is hopelessly inter-twined-and-woven with attacks on >>>> Ruqaiya Hasan's legacy and the legacy of Halliday with which I am >>>> intellectually and even emotionally inter-twined and -woven. Sometimes >>>> (e.g. my last post) it much diminises the capacity of my body, of which my >>>> feelings are not always the best functioning part, for action. For which I >>>> apologize to the whole list. >>>> >>>> Here in Korea, schools are reopening and classes are going off line >>>> again. This has been a gradual process, both because different grades have >>>> different levels of urgency (high schoolers who are entering college are >>>> considered urgent) and because different ages have different levels of risk >>>> (again, older kids given to clubbing and courier jobs--the sources of two >>>> recent spikes--are at greater risk). But yesterday we started second grade >>>> classes, which means that our Vygotsky Community, which is overwhelmingly >>>> composed of elementary school teachers, is now back in the classroom. >>>> >>>> You can see from this order that one thing that was not discussed was >>>> the different levels of teacher presence that kids emotionally need. This >>>> is something teachers themselves are quite sensitive too--it is why >>>> second-grade teachers are usually motherly women with school age children >>>> of their own, and sixth-grade teachers tend to look like that physical >>>> education trainer you were so terrified of in sixth grade. But varying >>>> levels of need for teacher presence has not really been a factor in public >>>> health planning at all, nor am I sure it should be. At some point >>>> (adolescence?), children really do need to differentiate their emotional >>>> attachment to a subject matter from their emotional attachment to a >>>> teacher, not just because study has to become self-sustaining to go >>>> anywhere but because teachers are passionate bodies and this can greatly >>>> increase but also greatly decrease their capacity for action. In China in >>>> the eighties, for example, young professors did date their students at >>>> university level but nobody dated anybody before that. I think that >>>> here--helping us distinguish passion for the subject matter from passion >>>> for the instructor--Zoom can also play an important role, the same kind of >>>> positive role that those goofy parasol-hats they put on Chinese >>>> preschoolers to enforce social distancing have played. >>>> >>>> (By the way, our Vygotsky Community has more than doubled in size since >>>> the crisis began and we went on-line. Believe me--it's the subject matter!) >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QexqUu1vvwoAjg3OR4RcFr8HmzuO9tgnipdVbIDBMJY4jVD3bOwC6mve3kquNTDS39YV6Q$ >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QexqUu1vvwoAjg3OR4RcFr8HmzuO9tgnipdVbIDBMJY4jVD3bOwC6mve3kquNTDv-5cQtw$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 1:36 AM Tom Richardson < >>>> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi David >>>>> Fortunately I was listening to this thread, so "I hear you!". I shall >>>>> dig to see what I find about Spinoza in LSV. >>>>> Big thank you. >>>>> Tom >>>>> BoWen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 22:43, David Kellogg >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Rob-- >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks--my link works okay, but it's probably because I'm already >>>>>> logged in. So I replaced the link with yours. >>>>>> >>>>>> For a fine example of witless misunderstanding justified with >>>>>> willfull misrepresentation that was used to drive Bernstein's work out of >>>>>> the academy, see the work of Peter Jones, referenced in my article. >>>>>> >>>>>> Peter E. Jones (2013) Bernstein's ?codes? and the linguistics of >>>>>> ?deficit?, Language and Education, 27:2, 161-179, DOI: >>>>>> 10.1080/09500782.2012.760587 >>>>>> >>>>>> Notice the scare quotes around "code" (which Bernstein did >>>>>> use) and likewise the term "deficit" (which Bernstein explicitly >>>>>> repudiated). Clever, huh? >>>>>> >>>>>> But Jones doesn't make this stuff up. He mostly just borrows from the >>>>>> long liberal anti-Marxist American tradition of this kind of attack, going >>>>>> back to William Labov. For example, the "linguist" Jones cites against >>>>>> Halliday is actually a historian of psychology (Jonathan Edwards) who >>>>>> argues that some cultures can have completely degenerate moral codes but >>>>>> very advanced languages, such as cannibal savages! >>>>>> >>>>>> A few years ago we were discussing an article here on xmca by Marilyn >>>>>> Fleer and I asked her if she was a Bernsteinian. I have always considered >>>>>> myself one, and I was genuinely curious to find others of a similar >>>>>> persuasion; Bernstein's name was not so blackened in Australia as it was in >>>>>> America, and Ruqaiya Hasan, who taught in Sydney, was always proud to >>>>>> acknowledge Bernstein as her colleague and mentor. Marilyn was a little >>>>>> indignant. >>>>>> >>>>>> Michael-- >>>>>> >>>>>> Here in Korea the main way of giving on-line classes is just >>>>>> uploading audio file which the student then listen to when they have time >>>>>> and giving lots of homework. Curiously, some of the kids prefer this. ALL >>>>>> of my students dislike using the camera. I am not sure what to make of >>>>>> this... >>>>>> >>>>>> Every crisis is a turning point. Education has gleefully saddled >>>>>> three cash cows: foreign students, college sports, and diploma mills, >>>>>> and all three of these are now hamburger. On the one hand, Zoom classes and >>>>>> audio classes allow us to provide universal college education for almost >>>>>> nothing--if we can solve the mediational problems. On the other, pinkspace >>>>>> classes can easily be social-distanced--if we can just make undergraduate >>>>>> classes the size of graduate seminars (with more classes outside in good >>>>>> weather). But both solutions--universal online tertiary education and >>>>>> extending the graduate seminar experience to undergraduates--will >>>>>> inevitably hinge on the outcome of the struggle to make education an >>>>>> intellectual public institution instead of a semi-intellectual luxury >>>>>> brand, and this in turn will hinge on the struggle for preventive medicine >>>>>> based on foresight instead of astonishment. >>>>>> >>>>>> Oi, Tom! (Way over on the other thread, so I have to shout!) >>>>>> >>>>>> Vygotsky writes a LOT about Spinoza; his sister was doing her PhD on >>>>>> the guy when he was still in high school and he went to stay with her at >>>>>> Moscow University and caught the bug. He was working on a vast tome on how >>>>>> Spinoza's work could be retooled to give us a Marxist (materialist, monist, >>>>>> but dialectical) theory of higher emotions when he died. We are translating >>>>>> it all into Korean, and I am trying to write a preface. Spinoza believed in >>>>>> sentient meat: "Deus, Sive Natura" ("God, that is to say, Nature...") Above >>>>>> all, though, Spinoza believed that emotions are anything that increases or >>>>>> decreases our ability to do things. The interesting thing, which I am still >>>>>> trying to wrap my head around, is that one of those things that does this >>>>>> is the idea of the emotion itself--the perezhivanie. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>>> >>>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QexqUu1vvwoAjg3OR4RcFr8HmzuO9tgnipdVbIDBMJY4jVD3bOwC6mve3kquNTDS39YV6Q$ >>>>>> >>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QexqUu1vvwoAjg3OR4RcFr8HmzuO9tgnipdVbIDBMJY4jVD3bOwC6mve3kquNTDv-5cQtw$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 10:51 PM Glassman, Michael < >>>>>> glassman.13@osu.edu> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello David, Elizabeth, Annalisa, Rob, others, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well social presence and teacher presence are two completely >>>>>>> different lines of research and thinking even though they sound alike. >>>>>>> Teacher presence comes from localized classroom research while social >>>>>>> presence comes from the communication field I believe sometime in the >>>>>>> 1960s. Lately I have begun to think of teacher presence as similar to >>>>>>> Bourdeiu's cultural capital. Our education system teaches certain groups of >>>>>>> children how to read and get in sync with teachers from their more subtle >>>>>>> physical signs so that they become more successful later in their school >>>>>>> careers and in life. Many of the more successful children also get practice >>>>>>> in reading these different signs at home. It is the old adage, don't listen >>>>>>> to what I say, watch what I do. Social presence on the other hand is more >>>>>>> related to our own understanding of our own communications and the value of >>>>>>> those communications. We have a sense of what we are doing from those who >>>>>>> are watching us (in the broad sense), and this sense changes as our sense >>>>>>> of those who are watching us changes not only how we act but the investment >>>>>>> we make in what we do changes accordingly. I see it all the time in >>>>>>> teachers, who they are changes completely when they get up in from of a >>>>>>> room of students. Just a mind experiment. The next time you read an XMCA >>>>>>> post see if you can imagine a few of the members standing over your should >>>>>>> observing you are you are reading with the expectation of some response. >>>>>>> See how this might change your behavior. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As for Zoom. I just think it is not a good tool for education and >>>>>>> the reason we use it is illusory (because it recreates a place-based >>>>>>> experience so we are more comfortable with it?). Zoom's purpose is not >>>>>>> education in the sense of knowledge sharing and knowledge creation. Its >>>>>>> proximal purpose I believe was to sell to corporations and such for >>>>>>> meetings so they would not have to spend as much on travel. Its distal >>>>>>> purpose, meeting platforms in general, was so individuals could engage in >>>>>>> multiple activities related to the topic but not focused on the topic. I >>>>>>> mean it is kind of cool, you can have a meeting where you wear a tie on top >>>>>>> and boxer shorts below. And we are sometimes a talking head culture. But it >>>>>>> is by nature very unilateral and expert oriented. Do we have to develop a >>>>>>> whole new cultural capital oeuvre for Zoom meetings. We must make sure that >>>>>>> those who are ahead stay ahead. Annalisa in answer to your question no >>>>>>> education or Zoom, I worry about binary choices such as this. Maybe we >>>>>>> should be asking ourselves how we got here in the first place. Why are >>>>>>> these our only two choices right now, and many attempts using Meeting >>>>>>> platforms are failing as they seem to be, how do we move forward from here. >>>>>>> Why aren't we asking more questions, trying to understand how our great >>>>>>> digital experiment is failing education. And speaking to Rob's poignant use >>>>>>> of the term pink space, why is the lack of universal broadband dominating >>>>>>> discussions. I think about the whole one to one movement and I really >>>>>>> question why we leaped ahead to this without a reckoning over the need to >>>>>>> have every corner of our society equitably wired (spoiler alert: because >>>>>>> instead of corporations making oodles of money our society will have to >>>>>>> spend oodles of money). So Annalisa I got back to your question, is it >>>>>>> better to have no education or Zoom and I ask if you stepped on a nail >>>>>>> would it be better to put on a band-aid to stop the bleeding or to figure >>>>>>> our how to save your life (I know the answer will be both but where do I >>>>>>> prioritize). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Michael >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> On Behalf Of robsub@ariadne.org.uk >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 4:53 AM >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just a couple of very quick observations. (I find regularly that by >>>>>>> the time I have formulated my response to something, the conversation has >>>>>>> moved on by several degrees, so I'm getting in quickly.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Firstly the link to your article on Ruqaiya didn't resolve, David. >>>>>>> But I found it here: >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-UtouXiIa-kw$ >>>>>>> . Thank you for that, though - looks well worth reading. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Secondly, I always had the impression that Bernstein was resisted >>>>>>> not because of his work on codes specifically, but because he was too prone >>>>>>> to allowing his work to be used to justify class differentials, almost to >>>>>>> the level of the poor keep themselves poor by deliberately restricting the >>>>>>> language their children learn. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thirdly, meatspace. Hmmm. I'm toying with the idea of pinkspace. >>>>>>> Less physically vulgar than meatspace and reflects the reality that the >>>>>>> physical world, just like the online world, is dominated by those of us who >>>>>>> are pink. Just a thought. Needs developing though. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Rob >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2020-05-26 03:08, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>>>> > Michael, Anthony, Elizabeth--and (of course) Annalisa: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > I apologize for changing the threadline title AGAIN. I feel like >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> > five-year-old who is always unscrewing the back of the TV set to >>>>>>> see >>>>>>> > the little people inside; I was very dissatisfied withe the >>>>>>> abstract >>>>>>> > theory on the other line, according to which everything is >>>>>>> everything >>>>>>> > and mediation and unmediation are equally both and I wanted a way >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> > finding the people inside it. I thought the term "meatspace", >>>>>>> which >>>>>>> > Annalisa has heard before, captured that feeling pretty well (and >>>>>>> > there are also some echoes of a corruscating book review I once >>>>>>> read >>>>>>> > in MCA titled something like "Yer askin' me to believe in sentient >>>>>>> > MEAT????") >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Let's use Michael's categories of "teacher presence" and "social >>>>>>> > presence" instead, so long as we keep in mind the point that >>>>>>> Michael >>>>>>> > made at the end, that is, the teacher is always present even when >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> > teacher is not present (as when the child is doing homework alone) >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> > the additional point that teacher presence is one kind of social >>>>>>> > presence. But because presence and absence are (like mediated and >>>>>>> > unmediated) equally both ungradeable categories, I would prefer to >>>>>>> > talk about teacher distancing and social distancing. Michael >>>>>>> Osterholm >>>>>>> > has objected to the term social distancing for the same reasons I >>>>>>> > raised earlier--it's a physical, mechanical distancing that >>>>>>> actually >>>>>>> > creates a higher form of solidarity (and that is why the elements >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> > society which oppose higher forms of solidarity oppose it). So I >>>>>>> put >>>>>>> > "social distancing" in scare quotes. But the teacher distancing is >>>>>>> > real enough. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Real but not by itself of developmental significance. What worries >>>>>>> me >>>>>>> > is the possibility that we are adding to the kinds of >>>>>>> inequalitiees >>>>>>> > that Annalisa, Henry and Tom are talking about on the other >>>>>>> thread. It >>>>>>> > seems to me that teacher distancing differentially hurts some >>>>>>> > populations. I disagree that Koreans are more homogeneous than >>>>>>> other >>>>>>> > cultures (in class terms significantly less so) and I also think >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> > if you were to sit through a lecture in the Korean language >>>>>>> without >>>>>>> > understanding Korean you would not agree that language is the >>>>>>> least >>>>>>> > important aspect of teacher presence. But (to bring these two >>>>>>> > together) I think that students who are able to focus on language, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> > on particular kinds of language, are disproportionately enabled in >>>>>>> > conditions of teacher distancing. This is the issue that dare not >>>>>>> > speak its name, for when Bernstein tried to raise it he was, as >>>>>>> > Halliday noted, "driven out of the field". One of the reasons I >>>>>>> wrote >>>>>>> > the article linked below is that Ruqaiya Hasan was not. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > David Kellogg >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Sangmyung University >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>>>>> > Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d >>>>>>> > 7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-Utot_Yz0eEQ$ [1] >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: _L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>>>>> > Works_ _Volume One: Foundations of Pedology_" >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 5270__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqO >>>>>>> > DPVr-UtotPljj6rQ$ [2] >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Links: >>>>>>> > ------ >>>>>>> > [1] >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zc >>>>>>> > e9P2I5M_FZBJKElhGyP20UejX0w$ >>>>>>> > [2] >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 5270__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zce9P2I5M_FZB >>>>>>> > JKElhGyP026P9-1A$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200531/35c528de/attachment.html From preiss.xmca@gmail.com Sat May 30 23:55:47 2020 From: preiss.xmca@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 02:55:47 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?=2215_La_era_est=C3=A1_pariendo_un_coraz=C3=B3n_-_O?= =?utf-8?q?mara_portuondo_y_Mart=C3=ADn_Rojas=22?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From Silvio himself https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsLKyYa2nfg__;!!Mih3wA!Sx6T1aJkuJkIFsrWYcKEMxD0ilGSe8A9e2o3PrKCWgaS3YoFJP3fP2hnL4nHw4dM-K7SFA$ I was a fan of him in the 80s. Then shifted to others, David On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 3:23 PM Ulvi ??il wrote: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/qTJzYtd1l7M__;!!Mih3wA!Sx6T1aJkuJkIFsrWYcKEMxD0ilGSe8A9e2o3PrKCWgaS3YoFJP3fP2hnL4nHw4c48lpsXg$ > > > > I think best interpretation of this song. > > Ulvi > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200531/e41f9351/attachment.html From preiss.xmca@gmail.com Sun May 31 00:31:04 2020 From: preiss.xmca@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 03:31:04 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] USA & Chile social revolts Message-ID: Dear colleagues and friends of XMCA living int he USA, The images from the unrest in the USA are strikingly similar to those we experienced during our own "estallido social" since last October. Our social revolt was literally quarantined with the arrival of COVID19, and yours started during it. These are very complex days everywhere without any doubt. The main issue we experienced here (previous to COVID19) was how to understand institutional and social violence and how to protect our democracy. Although the unrest in the USA was triggered by a new event of police brutality, the same underlying issues seem to foster the social protest. There are many themes that I see there that are strikingly similar to our situation, including the widespread crisis of legitimacy of the police forces, which relate to issues of race, social and gender inequality. Democracy is not working for a large majority of the population, and is neglecting many vulnerable communities while the rich get unethically richer. That a private company sent a rocket to the international space station the same day that 25 cities in the USA were under curfew summarizes all. In Chile, however, the social unrest was channeled in a wider social movement for social reform and ended up in an agreement to change our constitution, which was about to be voted but COVID19 happened. I have started to work on a project on human rights and the police (not a topic that was in my mainstream area of research but to whom I arrived as a part of a social concern) and will certainly be very attentive to your thoughts on the matter as events unfold. The images of police brutality that are in social media are very similar to those we experienced here as well as those of opportunistic civil violence by infiltrators, looting and so on. I really hope the social protest there achieves some substantive change and it is not just marginalized or reduced to mere chaos. But first of all, besides entering an academic discussion, I just wanted to share with you all my full solidarity. These are very painful moments. We went through them. I understand how painful they are. I share your pain and grief. David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200531/f2a6670f/attachment.html From billkerr@gmail.com Sun May 31 02:41:37 2020 From: billkerr@gmail.com (Bill Kerr) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 19:11:37 +0930 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: USA & Chile social revolts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hi David, I live in Australia, remote Alice Springs, but was looking for analysis of USA "I can't breathe" / "no peace, no justice" / "Black lives matter"/ "darkness falls in the USA" when your mail arrived. Last year in Yuendumu (290 km from Alice) an aboriginal man 19-year-old Kumunjayi Walker was killed by police. The officer has been charged for murder. More information here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.alicespringsnews.com.au/2019/11/15/67641/__;!!Mih3wA!RlGhWpL4RcCfym6WMrGAIq723lwzTs5Onv8VNYfZIIYJiKAW82ie8fSsgf4Ti9gbQaESgg$ I also thought of the parallel to the situation in Hong Kong, where the public supported the use of violence by democracy supporters as shown in Council elections on 24th November 2019 Also the parallel with the US moon launch July 20, 1969 (cf SpaceX) and the Vietnam war protests at that time. Here is an interesting twitter post / video on the current situation in the US: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/QasimRashid/status/1266602023526506498__;!!Mih3wA!RlGhWpL4RcCfym6WMrGAIq723lwzTs5Onv8VNYfZIIYJiKAW82ie8fSsgf4Ti9inW5M_cQ$ "Killer" Mike passionately pleads for protestors "not to burn your own house down" Read the comments on this thread, some for, some against. A little way down someone has posted an old video from Malcom X, who argues, "you don't get freedom peacefully, anyone who is depriving you of freedom isn't deserving of a peaceful approach"ill Bill On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 5:04 PM David Preiss wrote: > Dear colleagues and friends of XMCA living int he USA, > > The images from the unrest in the USA are strikingly similar to those we > experienced during our own "estallido social" since last October. Our > social revolt was literally quarantined with the arrival of COVID19, and > yours started during it. These are very complex days everywhere without any > doubt. > > The main issue we experienced here (previous to COVID19) was how to > understand institutional and social violence and how to protect our > democracy. Although the unrest in the USA was triggered by a new event of > police brutality, the same underlying issues seem to foster the social > protest. > > There are many themes that I see there that are strikingly similar to our > situation, including the widespread crisis of legitimacy of the police > forces, which relate to issues of race, social and gender > inequality. Democracy is not working for a large majority of the > population, and is neglecting many vulnerable communities while the rich > get unethically richer. That a private company sent a rocket to the > international space station the same day that 25 cities in the USA were > under curfew summarizes all. In Chile, however, the social unrest > was channeled in a wider social movement for social reform and ended up in > an agreement to change our constitution, which was about to be voted but > COVID19 happened. > > I have started to work on a project on human rights and the police (not a > topic that was in my mainstream area of research but to whom I arrived as a > part of a social concern) and will certainly be very attentive to your > thoughts on the matter as events unfold. The images of police brutality > that are in social media are very similar to those we experienced here as > well as those of opportunistic civil violence by infiltrators, looting and > so on. I really hope the social protest there achieves some substantive > change and it is not just marginalized or reduced to mere chaos. > > But first of all, besides entering an academic discussion, I just wanted > to share with you all my full solidarity. These are very painful moments. > We went through them. I understand how painful they are. I share your pain > and grief. > > David > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200531/d876dcbe/attachment.html From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Sun May 31 07:12:58 2020 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 15:12:58 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?=2215_La_era_est=C3=A1_pariendo_un_coraz=C3=B3n_-_O?= =?utf-8?q?mara_portuondo_y_Mart=C3=ADn_Rojas=22?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ulvi - just listening to this song again - and feel shaken and joyfully tearful by its power although I have only the translation of the few essential words that Henry provides - such passion is moving on the streets of US/HK/RoIndia wider/wider ,at this moment - can *REAL *change result, i.e. rejection of Capital and its organisation of social production.........? The new Heart must also have a Hand and that Hand must have a Mind that understands Capital's power and workings and can thus bring real change IMO Thank you again Tom On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 20:23, Ulvi ??il wrote: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/qTJzYtd1l7M__;!!Mih3wA!X9yPsY4HxDKTAL3ZV_3RjXR3RgfpZiNvQo4pWxCvFpW-vJZnyK_GTP-Nm4lb__SeE98pXQ$ > > > > I think best interpretation of this song. > > Ulvi > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200531/4174f321/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Sun May 31 09:22:10 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 10:22:10 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?=2215_La_era_est=C3=A1_pariendo_un_coraz=C3=B3n_-_O?= =?utf-8?q?mara_portuondo_y_Mart=C3=ADn_Rojas=22?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5B82BBC7-9DFD-4008-B404-37A8ACB4C11B@gmail.com> Hi David, Why did you shift? And to what? Henry > On May 31, 2020, at 12:55 AM, David Preiss wrote: > > From Silvio himself > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsLKyYa2nfg__;!!Mih3wA!WpOqFDn__ysfXzO5nLvz5ENXKfWjUmDBr_YKZ0jcKvTrqLM_j6-mISAeOEA50M9PE1yp4g$ > I was a fan of him in the 80s. Then shifted to others, > David > > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 3:23 PM Ulvi ??il > wrote: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/qTJzYtd1l7M__;!!Mih3wA!WpOqFDn__ysfXzO5nLvz5ENXKfWjUmDBr_YKZ0jcKvTrqLM_j6-mISAeOEA50M-1f0KE7A$ > > I think best interpretation of this song. > > Ulvi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200531/eda03f0d/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Sun May 31 09:36:30 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 10:36:30 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: USA & Chile social revolts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi David, What you say about ?oportunistic nfiltrators? in demonstrations against police brutality, " The images of police brutality that are in social media are very similar to those we experienced here as well as those of opportunistic civil violence by infiltrators, looting and so on. I really hope the social protest there achieves some substantive change and it is not just marginalized or reduced to mere chaos.? I clearly reflected in reports in the U.S. right now. My sister in law found in social media that right-siders/outsiders were involved in rioting, setting fires. I saw it myself in a video. People were seen changing license plates from out-of-state to Minnesota. I was heartbroken to see that small, minority-owned businesses burned while big-box stores were guarded by police. Trump claimed that Anti-Fa were involved. They deny it, which I am glad to hear. Of course, Black people torched minority businesses, largely Asian-American, businesses in Los Angeles during riots some time back. And may have looted Black-owned businesses?that?s opportunistic violence. Henry Here in the U.S. we are getting information of > On May 31, 2020, at 1:31 AM, David Preiss wrote: > > Dear colleagues and friends of XMCA living int he USA, > > The images from the unrest in the USA are strikingly similar to those we experienced during our own "estallido social" since last October. Our social revolt was literally quarantined with the arrival of COVID19, and yours started during it. These are very complex days everywhere without any doubt. > > The main issue we experienced here (previous to COVID19) was how to understand institutional and social violence and how to protect our democracy. Although the unrest in the USA was triggered by a new event of police brutality, the same underlying issues seem to foster the social protest. > > There are many themes that I see there that are strikingly similar to our situation, including the widespread crisis of legitimacy of the police forces, which relate to issues of race, social and gender inequality. Democracy is not working for a large majority of the population, and is neglecting many vulnerable communities while the rich get unethically richer. That a private company sent a rocket to the international space station the same day that 25 cities in the USA were under curfew summarizes all. In Chile, however, the social unrest was channeled in a wider social movement for social reform and ended up in an agreement to change our constitution, which was about to be voted but COVID19 happened. > > I have started to work on a project on human rights and the police (not a topic that was in my mainstream area of research but to whom I arrived as a part of a social concern) and will certainly be very attentive to your thoughts on the matter as events unfold. The images of police brutality that are in social media are very similar to those we experienced here as well as those of opportunistic civil violence by infiltrators, looting and so on. I really hope the social protest there achieves some substantive change and it is not just marginalized or reduced to mere chaos. > > But first of all, besides entering an academic discussion, I just wanted to share with you all my full solidarity. These are very painful moments. We went through them. I understand how painful they are. I share your pain and grief. > > David > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200531/6f0480fb/attachment.html From carolmacdon@gmail.com Sun May 31 09:54:42 2020 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 18:54:42 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: USA & Chile social revolts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Trevor Noah (The Daily Show) tells a chillingly unfunny story about being black and being pulled over on the highway. He landed up draped through the window, over the side of the door with his hands dangling and head down, terrified. The policeman was slightly mystified. Obviously he wasn't shot, but the joke was sickening, partly because he's our guy, and we would be very angry if anyone hurt him. But BTW he's safe. ---------------------------- Carol A Macdonald Ph.D (Edin) 082 562 1050 Editlab.Net The Matthew Project: Reading to Learn On Sun, 31 May 2020 at 18:39, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Hi David, > What you say about ?oportunistic nfiltrators? in demonstrations against > police brutality, > > " The images of police brutality that are in social media are very similar > to those we experienced here as well as those of opportunistic > civil violence by infiltrators, looting and so on. I really hope the social > protest there achieves some substantive change and it is not just > marginalized or reduced to mere chaos.? > > I clearly reflected in reports in the U.S. right now. My sister in law > found in social media that right-siders/outsiders were involved in rioting, > setting fires. I saw it myself in a video. People were seen changing > license plates from out-of-state to Minnesota. > > I was heartbroken to see that small, minority-owned businesses burned > while big-box stores were guarded by police. Trump claimed that Anti-Fa > were involved. They deny it, which I am glad to hear. Of course, Black > people torched minority businesses, largely Asian-American, businesses in > Los Angeles during riots some time back. And may have looted Black-owned > businesses?that?s opportunistic violence. > > > Henry > > > Here in the U.S. we are getting information of > > On May 31, 2020, at 1:31 AM, David Preiss wrote: > > Dear colleagues and friends of XMCA living int he USA, > > The images from the unrest in the USA are strikingly similar to those we > experienced during our own "estallido social" since last October. Our > social revolt was literally quarantined with the arrival of COVID19, and > yours started during it. These are very complex days everywhere without any > doubt. > > The main issue we experienced here (previous to COVID19) was how to > understand institutional and social violence and how to protect our > democracy. Although the unrest in the USA was triggered by a new event of > police brutality, the same underlying issues seem to foster the social > protest. > > There are many themes that I see there that are strikingly similar to our > situation, including the widespread crisis of legitimacy of the police > forces, which relate to issues of race, social and gender > inequality. Democracy is not working for a large majority of the > population, and is neglecting many vulnerable communities while the rich > get unethically richer. That a private company sent a rocket to the > international space station the same day that 25 cities in the USA were > under curfew summarizes all. In Chile, however, the social unrest > was channeled in a wider social movement for social reform and ended up in > an agreement to change our constitution, which was about to be voted but > COVID19 happened. > > I have started to work on a project on human rights and the police (not a > topic that was in my mainstream area of research but to whom I arrived as a > part of a social concern) and will certainly be very attentive to your > thoughts on the matter as events unfold. The images of police brutality > that are in social media are very similar to those we experienced here as > well as those of opportunistic civil violence by infiltrators, looting and > so on. I really hope the social protest there achieves some substantive > change and it is not just marginalized or reduced to mere chaos. > > But first of all, besides entering an academic discussion, I just wanted > to share with you all my full solidarity. These are very painful moments. > We went through them. I understand how painful they are. I share your pain > and grief. > > David > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200531/fa4a655d/attachment.html From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Sun May 31 09:55:30 2020 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 17:55:30 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?=2215_La_era_est=C3=A1_pariendo_un_coraz=C3=B3n_-_O?= =?utf-8?q?mara_portuondo_y_Mart=C3=ADn_Rojas=22?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ulvi - only just seen this - thank you - Google translate 'versioned' it sufficiently to get the gist - Tom On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 at 10:04, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Here the lyrics, in case you want to use Google Translate: > > > > Le he preguntado a mi sombra > A ver c?mo ando, para re?rme > Mientras el llanto, con voz de templo > Rompe en la sala regando el tiempo > > Mi sombra dice que re?rse > Es ver los llantos como mi llanto > Y me he callado, desesperado > Y escucho entonces > La tierra llora > > La era esta pariendo un coraz?n > No puede m?s, se muere de dolor > Y hay que acudir corriendo > Pues se cae el porvenir > > La era esta pariendo un coraz?n > No puede m?s, se muere de dolor > Y hay que acudir corriendo > Pues se cae el porvenir > En cualquier selva del mundo > > Mi sombra dice que re?rse > Es ver los llantos como mi llanto > Y me he callado, desesperado > Y escucho entonces > La tierra llora > > La era esta pariendo un coraz?n > No puede m?s, se muere de dolor > Y hay que acudir corriendo > Pues se cae el porvenir > > Debo dejar la casa y el sill?n > La madre vive hasta que muere el sol > Y hay que quemar el cielo > Si es preciso, por vivir > Por cualquier hombre del mundo > Por cualquier casa > > > > > > *From: * on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Sunday, 26 April 2020 at 11:02 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: "15 La era est? pariendo un coraz?n - Omara > portuondo y Mart?n Rojas" > > > > I love Omara Portuondo!! Really relevant, thanks a lot for sharing > > > > Alfredo > > > > *From: * on behalf of Ulvi ??il < > ulvi.icil@gmail.com> > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Saturday, 25 April 2020 at 21:45 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: "15 La era est? pariendo un coraz?n - Omara > portuondo y Mart?n Rojas" > > > > Thanks to you Tom and to Henry. > > > > > > > > 25 Nis 2020 Cmt 22:39 tarihinde Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> ?unu yazd?: > > Thank you, Ulvi icil - touching, passionate - although my Spanish isn't > able to translate it - but that matters not - the feeling is there. > > Tom Richardson > > Middlesbrough UK > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > BoWen > > > > > > On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 20:23, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/qTJzYtd1l7M__;!!Mih3wA!UH8XPavqGelZ30PE_bVHwvjiRiSMFNRS56ZhdTMUPwZf6mkHVLYBb7Z1PlyIo9yNad1CYw$ > > > > > > I think best interpretation of this song. > > > > Ulvi > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200531/6ad0b36b/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Sun May 31 10:03:15 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 11:03:15 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: USA & Chile social revolts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <995191E3-C8C1-4553-B9E3-614BF56F0BCF@gmail.com> Hi Bill, Especially enraging was this from Alice Springs News: "The Gunner government lost the plot when it pulled its entire health staff out of Yuendumu for two weeks over safety concerns, instead of increasing measures for their protection ? as much as it takes.? There?s a powerful resonance between the oppression of aboriginal people on their own land (Australia) and the oppression of involuntary immigrants in a new land (Black people in the U.S.). I loved the rock group Yothu Yindi, which was a wonderful collaboration between an aboriginal musical group (the Swamp Jockies I just found on the internet) and the white rock group Midnight Oil. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf-jHCdafZY__;!!Mih3wA!QApyRROvrydjfvfkDpfZructzelZVTlTIQl4CTVzl5t75erIvukcoZ2yBXh3Y8q4TTUmYQ$ . This music affects me in the same way as protest music of Latin America in the 60s and 70s. (e.g., La Era Est? Pariendo Un Corazon.)https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsLKyYa2nfg__;!!Mih3wA!Sx6T1aJkuJkIFsrWYcKEMxD0ilGSe8A9e2o3PrKCWgaS3YoFJP3fP2hnL4nHw4dM-K7SFA$ It?s the emotional accompaniment to action, activism that is engaged. Perizhvanie. The Spinozan turn away from Descartesian thinking, Full-on engagement of conceptual thinking and social embodiment. We are all in this thing together. Henry > On May 31, 2020, at 3:41 AM, Bill Kerr wrote: > > hi David, > I live in Australia, remote Alice Springs, but was looking for analysis of USA "I can't breathe" / "no peace, no justice" / "Black lives matter"/ "darkness falls in the USA" when your mail arrived. Last year in Yuendumu (290 km from Alice) an aboriginal man 19-year-old Kumunjayi Walker was killed by police. The officer has been charged for murder. More information here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.alicespringsnews.com.au/2019/11/15/67641/__;!!Mih3wA!QApyRROvrydjfvfkDpfZructzelZVTlTIQl4CTVzl5t75erIvukcoZ2yBXh3Y8po3lqsQA$ > > I also thought of the parallel to the situation in Hong Kong, where the public supported the use of violence by democracy supporters as shown in Council elections on 24th November 2019 > > Also the parallel with the US moon launch July 20, 1969 (cf SpaceX) and the Vietnam war protests at that time. > > Here is an interesting twitter post / video on the current situation in the US: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/QasimRashid/status/1266602023526506498__;!!Mih3wA!QApyRROvrydjfvfkDpfZructzelZVTlTIQl4CTVzl5t75erIvukcoZ2yBXh3Y8ps7S5CSg$ > "Killer" Mike passionately pleads for protestors "not to burn your own house down" > > Read the comments on this thread, some for, some against. A little way down someone has posted an old video from Malcom X, who argues, > "you don't get freedom peacefully, anyone who is depriving you of freedom isn't deserving of a peaceful approach"ill > > Bill > > On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 5:04 PM David Preiss > wrote: > Dear colleagues and friends of XMCA living int he USA, > > The images from the unrest in the USA are strikingly similar to those we experienced during our own "estallido social" since last October. Our social revolt was literally quarantined with the arrival of COVID19, and yours started during it. These are very complex days everywhere without any doubt. > > The main issue we experienced here (previous to COVID19) was how to understand institutional and social violence and how to protect our democracy. Although the unrest in the USA was triggered by a new event of police brutality, the same underlying issues seem to foster the social protest. > > There are many themes that I see there that are strikingly similar to our situation, including the widespread crisis of legitimacy of the police forces, which relate to issues of race, social and gender inequality. Democracy is not working for a large majority of the population, and is neglecting many vulnerable communities while the rich get unethically richer. That a private company sent a rocket to the international space station the same day that 25 cities in the USA were under curfew summarizes all. In Chile, however, the social unrest was channeled in a wider social movement for social reform and ended up in an agreement to change our constitution, which was about to be voted but COVID19 happened. > > I have started to work on a project on human rights and the police (not a topic that was in my mainstream area of research but to whom I arrived as a part of a social concern) and will certainly be very attentive to your thoughts on the matter as events unfold. The images of police brutality that are in social media are very similar to those we experienced here as well as those of opportunistic civil violence by infiltrators, looting and so on. I really hope the social protest there achieves some substantive change and it is not just marginalized or reduced to mere chaos. > > But first of all, besides entering an academic discussion, I just wanted to share with you all my full solidarity. These are very painful moments. We went through them. I understand how painful they are. I share your pain and grief. > > David > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200531/5f2ee129/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Sun May 31 10:04:47 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 11:04:47 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?=2215_La_era_est=C3=A1_pariendo_un_coraz=C3=B3n_-_O?= =?utf-8?q?mara_portuondo_y_Mart=C3=ADn_Rojas=22?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <240A50A7-B832-4AEC-804A-5B395EB8EDBC@gmail.com> :)))) > On May 31, 2020, at 8:12 AM, Tom Richardson wrote: > > Ulvi - just listening to this song again - and feel shaken and joyfully tearful by its power although I have only the translation of the few essential words that Henry provides - such passion is moving on the streets of US/HK/RoIndia wider/wider ,at this moment - can REAL change result, i.e. rejection of Capital and its organisation of social production.........? > The new Heart must also have a Hand and that Hand must have a Mind that understands Capital's power and workings and can thus bring real change IMO > Thank you again > Tom > > > > > On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 20:23, Ulvi ??il > wrote: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/qTJzYtd1l7M__;!!Mih3wA!To1sCDRrTJHlk_5KFuQ7h28AaU09ItbMFvGD9pj1RaXck1NXGuoLAmMomzCd8DXRplvXTw$ > > I think best interpretation of this song. > > Ulvi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200531/08925d6c/attachment.html From preiss.xmca@gmail.com Sun May 31 11:26:52 2020 From: preiss.xmca@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 14:26:52 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?=2215_La_era_est=C3=A1_pariendo_un_coraz=C3=B3n_-_O?= =?utf-8?q?mara_portuondo_y_Mart=C3=ADn_Rojas=22?= In-Reply-To: <5B82BBC7-9DFD-4008-B404-37A8ACB4C11B@gmail.com> References: <5B82BBC7-9DFD-4008-B404-37A8ACB4C11B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Henry, This may not sound popular here, but I got tired of the double standard in the left regarding Cuba, which is an ominous family dictatorship. Silvio was inspiring back then in the 80s, when we were fighting Pinochet's dictatorship here, but not now anymore, at least for me. I also happen to know Cuban nationals, which were severely mistreated by the Cuban government. I still enjoy listening to Silvio's music but it is hard for me to do so without a bad taste in my mouth since he never spoke out against the human right violations in his own country and which can't be blamed in the USA embargo (persecution against LGTB is one example of that). David On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 12:25 PM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Hi David, > Why did you shift? And to what? > Henry > > > On May 31, 2020, at 12:55 AM, David Preiss wrote: > > From Silvio himself > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsLKyYa2nfg__;!!Mih3wA!XXFGSt1fQJJW00TO0hC_vr0uDD9bj_Er6TI2xCFFAvmbafznoCX3j8PTyYJ5O6kmVY_qJA$ > > I was a fan of him in the 80s. Then shifted to others, > David > > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 3:23 PM Ulvi ??il wrote: > >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/qTJzYtd1l7M__;!!Mih3wA!XXFGSt1fQJJW00TO0hC_vr0uDD9bj_Er6TI2xCFFAvmbafznoCX3j8PTyYJ5O6nPCb2R5g$ >> >> >> >> I think best interpretation of this song. >> >> Ulvi >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200531/de88a994/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun May 31 12:22:32 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 12:22:32 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: USA & Chile social revolts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you, David. We worried through your recent upheavals, but did not have the imaginative empathy to write a similar note to you. Now a lot less imagination is needed and the feeling of solidarity are much appreciated. Your new topic could not be more appropriate to the times we are living in. mike On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 12:34 AM David Preiss wrote: > Dear colleagues and friends of XMCA living int he USA, > > The images from the unrest in the USA are strikingly similar to those we > experienced during our own "estallido social" since last October. Our > social revolt was literally quarantined with the arrival of COVID19, and > yours started during it. These are very complex days everywhere without any > doubt. > > The main issue we experienced here (previous to COVID19) was how to > understand institutional and social violence and how to protect our > democracy. Although the unrest in the USA was triggered by a new event of > police brutality, the same underlying issues seem to foster the social > protest. > > There are many themes that I see there that are strikingly similar to our > situation, including the widespread crisis of legitimacy of the police > forces, which relate to issues of race, social and gender > inequality. Democracy is not working for a large majority of the > population, and is neglecting many vulnerable communities while the rich > get unethically richer. That a private company sent a rocket to the > international space station the same day that 25 cities in the USA were > under curfew summarizes all. In Chile, however, the social unrest > was channeled in a wider social movement for social reform and ended up in > an agreement to change our constitution, which was about to be voted but > COVID19 happened. > > I have started to work on a project on human rights and the police (not a > topic that was in my mainstream area of research but to whom I arrived as a > part of a social concern) and will certainly be very attentive to your > thoughts on the matter as events unfold. The images of police brutality > that are in social media are very similar to those we experienced here as > well as those of opportunistic civil violence by infiltrators, looting and > so on. I really hope the social protest there achieves some substantive > change and it is not just marginalized or reduced to mere chaos. > > But first of all, besides entering an academic discussion, I just wanted > to share with you all my full solidarity. These are very painful moments. > We went through them. I understand how painful they are. I share your pain > and grief. > > David > > > -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QY-lHSZoaBkWZtc_Bti_trUvs_CKV_kIJwo_-QBzDQY-suVDi0i5bDNZ-XJ2F2oyteZQgw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200531/f69b6979/attachment.html From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun May 31 13:22:30 2020 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 14:22:30 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: USA & Chile social revolts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David P, Glad to hear about your research (I have been wanting to do an ethnography of police officers for a while now but haven?t been able to fit it in). It will be important to bring the full power of a cultural historical approach to get beyond the very thin analyses I see all around me (by very well intentioned people, I might add) that reduce the issue to a simple concern with biases in the heads of individuals or, worse still, just a few bad apples in the police force. One needs to study the whole of life as found in history and baked into culture, including our politico-economic systems and institutions. That?s a tough row to hoe but anything short of that will land us right back in the land of race riots in another 30 years or so (and maybe if we recognized these as ?protests? or ?revolts? (cf. Michel-Rolph Trouillot?s work on the broad failure of humanity to recognize the REVOLUTION happening on the island of Haiti in 1791 because people couldn?t imagine that ?slaves? could mount a revolution so it was simply called a ?slave rebellion?)). Anyway, I?m very much looking forward to seeing what comes of your work! Very best, Greg On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 1:33 AM David Preiss wrote: > Dear colleagues and friends of XMCA living int he USA, > > The images from the unrest in the USA are strikingly similar to those we > experienced during our own "estallido social" since last October. Our > social revolt was literally quarantined with the arrival of COVID19, and > yours started during it. These are very complex days everywhere without any > doubt. > > The main issue we experienced here (previous to COVID19) was how to > understand institutional and social violence and how to protect our > democracy. Although the unrest in the USA was triggered by a new event of > police brutality, the same underlying issues seem to foster the social > protest. > > There are many themes that I see there that are strikingly similar to our > situation, including the widespread crisis of legitimacy of the police > forces, which relate to issues of race, social and gender > inequality. Democracy is not working for a large majority of the > population, and is neglecting many vulnerable communities while the rich > get unethically richer. That a private company sent a rocket to the > international space station the same day that 25 cities in the USA were > under curfew summarizes all. In Chile, however, the social unrest > was channeled in a wider social movement for social reform and ended up in > an agreement to change our constitution, which was about to be voted but > COVID19 happened. > > I have started to work on a project on human rights and the police (not a > topic that was in my mainstream area of research but to whom I arrived as a > part of a social concern) and will certainly be very attentive to your > thoughts on the matter as events unfold. The images of police brutality > that are in social media are very similar to those we experienced here as > well as those of opportunistic civil violence by infiltrators, looting and > so on. I really hope the social protest there achieves some substantive > change and it is not just marginalized or reduced to mere chaos. > > But first of all, besides entering an academic discussion, I just wanted > to share with you all my full solidarity. These are very painful moments. > We went through them. I understand how painful they are. I share your pain > and grief. > > > David > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!QxmUxAYvk6CQVBjEjsW4Qt76ZE3soFXVZqkkNivFE4kQFkKzYkEBxKZ0gkzfFS5nbIg8lw$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!QxmUxAYvk6CQVBjEjsW4Qt76ZE3soFXVZqkkNivFE4kQFkKzYkEBxKZ0gkzfFS6x4SBIag$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200531/1c99ab36/attachment.html From helenaworthen@gmail.com Sun May 31 14:11:21 2020 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 14:11:21 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: USA & Chile social revolts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7BDE4EDC-59F6-4AEC-849D-5BAF45B6CF0D@gmail.com> This is my idea of a happy story. It was front page and continued for nearly a full page after the jump. Of course, the rest of the paper is full of the riots, protests, burnings, etc. But look at what this one says - the big truth which is how hard and complicated it is to set up what we mean by (from Greg): "the whole of life as found in history and baked into culture, including our politico-economic systems and institutions.? This 66-year old man has been in prison for 44 years ? his original sentence was 17 years; the story isn?t about whether he was innocent or guilty or how reliable the witnesses were (not very), but it?s about the small difficult changes in the pro security/defense process, the gears and wheels that eventually all clicked through. A small unit in the public defender?s office reviews cases looking for people who are suitable for reduced sentencing; they have to go through major bureaucratic reviews; this connects to Chesa Boudin and his election (he was in the public defender?s office) as the new DA of SF; the review doesn?t go to a parole board any more ? so the path of the process is changed ? and eventually the guy gets out. This should be a tremendously encouraging message to all those people who are grindfing away in the offices of government pushing paper back and forth to make something clear out of the way and get something done. Or doing basic research or writing long, difficult things. It?s not a heroic one-person accomplishment; it?s terribly detail-oriented and time-consuming and full of pitfalls. So while the protests are happening all over (and I think they are necessary), once you?re done burning buildings and you?ve got people's attention, this is where the work gets done. 'The power of redemption': Oakland man goes free after 44 years in prison, more than 30 in solitary https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/SF-public-defender-unit-helps-Oakland-man-go-free-15301831.php?utm_campaign=CMS*20Sharing*20Tools*20(Premium)&utm_source=share-by-email&utm_medium=email__;JSUl!!Mih3wA!W_68UA9vN33ySTU983cmHoR_JcM8ljg9IMi1QdAsGjIaKONttISaVWyZArCOnwitNWj4Wg$ A new post-conviction unit at the San Francisco public defender?s office offers a fresh eye to sometimes decades-old cases, many of which were sentenced under harsher, ?tough-on-crime? laws that no longer exist today. This message was sent via SFChronicle.com As I write this I remember that one of basic uber-narratives is, ?The prisoner goes free.? Helena Worthen h elenaworthen@gmail.com > On May 31, 2020, at 1:22 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > David P, > > Glad to hear about your research (I have been wanting to do an ethnography of police officers for a while now but haven?t been able to fit it in). > > It will be important to bring the full power of a cultural historical approach to get beyond the very thin analyses I see all around me (by very well intentioned people, I might add) that reduce the issue to a simple concern with biases in the heads of individuals or, worse still, just a few bad apples in the police force. > > One needs to study the whole of life as found in history and baked into culture, including our politico-economic systems and institutions. That?s a tough row to hoe but anything short of that will land us right back in the land of race riots in another 30 years or so (and maybe if we recognized these as ?protests? or ?revolts? (cf. Michel-Rolph Trouillot?s work on the broad failure of humanity to recognize the REVOLUTION happening on the island of Haiti in 1791 because people couldn?t imagine that ?slaves? could mount a revolution so it was simply called a ?slave rebellion?)). > > Anyway, I?m very much looking forward to seeing what comes of your work! > > Very best, > Greg > > > On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 1:33 AM David Preiss > wrote: > Dear colleagues and friends of XMCA living int he USA, > > The images from the unrest in the USA are strikingly similar to those we experienced during our own "estallido social" since last October. Our social revolt was literally quarantined with the arrival of COVID19, and yours started during it. These are very complex days everywhere without any doubt. > > The main issue we experienced here (previous to COVID19) was how to understand institutional and social violence and how to protect our democracy. Although the unrest in the USA was triggered by a new event of police brutality, the same underlying issues seem to foster the social protest. > > There are many themes that I see there that are strikingly similar to our situation, including the widespread crisis of legitimacy of the police forces, which relate to issues of race, social and gender inequality. Democracy is not working for a large majority of the population, and is neglecting many vulnerable communities while the rich get unethically richer. That a private company sent a rocket to the international space station the same day that 25 cities in the USA were under curfew summarizes all. In Chile, however, the social unrest was channeled in a wider social movement for social reform and ended up in an agreement to change our constitution, which was about to be voted but COVID19 happened. > > I have started to work on a project on human rights and the police (not a topic that was in my mainstream area of research but to whom I arrived as a part of a social concern) and will certainly be very attentive to your thoughts on the matter as events unfold. The images of police brutality that are in social media are very similar to those we experienced here as well as those of opportunistic civil violence by infiltrators, looting and so on. I really hope the social protest there achieves some substantive change and it is not just marginalized or reduced to mere chaos. > > But first of all, besides entering an academic discussion, I just wanted to share with you all my full solidarity. These are very painful moments. We went through them. I understand how painful they are. I share your pain and grief. > > > David > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!W_68UA9vN33ySTU983cmHoR_JcM8ljg9IMi1QdAsGjIaKONttISaVWyZArCOnwjMkPoTRg$ > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!W_68UA9vN33ySTU983cmHoR_JcM8ljg9IMi1QdAsGjIaKONttISaVWyZArCOnwieS0crUw$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200531/7f8f5b5b/attachment.html From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun May 31 14:33:10 2020 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 15:33:10 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: USA & Chile social revolts In-Reply-To: <7BDE4EDC-59F6-4AEC-849D-5BAF45B6CF0D@gmail.com> References: <7BDE4EDC-59F6-4AEC-849D-5BAF45B6CF0D@gmail.com> Message-ID: And Helena, I couldn?t help but think of your post about the labor rally some time ago (with the anarchists participating peacefully but perhaps somewhat awkwardly) when I heard about Trump declaring Antifa a terrorist organization. Greg On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 3:14 PM Helena Worthen wrote: > This is my idea of a happy story. It was front page and continued for > nearly a full page after the jump. Of course, the rest of the paper is full > of the riots, protests, burnings, etc. > > But look at what this one says - the big truth which is how hard and > complicated it is to set up what we mean by (from Greg): *"**the whole > of life as found in history and baked into culture, including our > politico-economic systems and institutions.? * > > This 66-year old man has been in prison for 44 years ? his original > sentence was 17 years; the story isn?t about whether he was innocent or > guilty or how reliable the witnesses were (not very), but it?s about the > small difficult changes in the pro security/defense process, the gears and > wheels that eventually all clicked through. A small unit in the public > defender?s office reviews cases looking for people who are suitable for > reduced sentencing; they have to go through major bureaucratic reviews; > this connects to Chesa Boudin and his election (he was in the public > defender?s office) as the new DA of SF; the review doesn?t go to a parole > board any more ? so the path of the process is changed ? and eventually the > guy gets out. > > This should be a tremendously encouraging message to all those people who > are grindfing away in the offices of government pushing paper back and > forth to make something clear out of the way and get something done. Or > doing basic research or writing long, difficult things. It?s not a heroic > one-person accomplishment; it?s terribly detail-oriented and time-consuming > and full of pitfalls. > > So while the protests are happening all over (and I think they are > necessary), once you?re done burning buildings and you?ve got people's > attention, this is where the work gets done. > > 'The power of redemption': Oakland man goes free after 44 years in prison, > more than 30 in solitary > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/SF-public-defender-unit-helps-Oakland-man-go-free-15301831.php?utm_campaign=CMS*20Sharing*20Tools*20(Premium)&utm_source=share-by-email&utm_medium=email__;JSUl!!Mih3wA!VjCcVqwo37FNejsdxiPn6bFH-Ixi1jWM944UBot8xx2IWC8Uwn-4tSN-Xs4EBc3Aga5AbQ$ > > > A new post-conviction unit at the San Francisco public defender?s office > offers a fresh eye to sometimes decades-old cases, many of which were > sentenced under harsher, ?tough-on-crime? laws that no longer exist today. > > This message was sent via SFChronicle.com > > > > > As I write this I remember that one of basic uber-narratives is, ?The > prisoner goes free.? > > Helena Worthen > h > > elenaworthen@gmail.com > > > > > > > > On May 31, 2020, at 1:22 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > David P, > > Glad to hear about your research (I have been wanting to do an ethnography > of police officers for a while now but haven?t been able to fit it in). > > It will be important to bring the full power of a cultural historical > approach to get beyond the very thin analyses I see all around me (by very > well intentioned people, I might add) that reduce the issue to a simple > concern with biases in the heads of individuals or, worse still, just a few > bad apples in the police force. > > One needs to study the whole of life as found in history and baked into > culture, including our politico-economic systems and institutions. That?s a > tough row to hoe but anything short of that will land us right back in the > land of race riots in another 30 years or so (and maybe if we recognized > these as ?protests? or ?revolts? (cf. Michel-Rolph Trouillot?s work on the > broad failure of humanity to recognize the REVOLUTION happening on the > island of Haiti in 1791 because people couldn?t imagine that ?slaves? could > mount a revolution so it was simply called a ?slave rebellion?)). > > Anyway, I?m very much looking forward to seeing what comes of your work! > > Very best, > Greg > > > On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 1:33 AM David Preiss > wrote: > >> Dear colleagues and friends of XMCA living int he USA, >> >> The images from the unrest in the USA are strikingly similar to those we >> experienced during our own "estallido social" since last October. Our >> social revolt was literally quarantined with the arrival of COVID19, and >> yours started during it. These are very complex days everywhere without any >> doubt. >> >> The main issue we experienced here (previous to COVID19) was how to >> understand institutional and social violence and how to protect our >> democracy. Although the unrest in the USA was triggered by a new event >> of police brutality, the same underlying issues seem to foster the social >> protest. >> >> There are many themes that I see there that are strikingly similar to our >> situation, including the widespread crisis of legitimacy of the police >> forces, which relate to issues of race, social and gender >> inequality. Democracy is not working for a large majority of the >> population, and is neglecting many vulnerable communities while the rich >> get unethically richer. That a private company sent a rocket to the >> international space station the same day that 25 cities in the USA were >> under curfew summarizes all. In Chile, however, the social unrest >> was channeled in a wider social movement for social reform and ended up in >> an agreement to change our constitution, which was about to be voted but >> COVID19 happened. >> >> I have started to work on a project on human rights and the police (not a >> topic that was in my mainstream area of research but to whom I arrived as a >> part of a social concern) and will certainly be very attentive to your >> thoughts on the matter as events unfold. The images of police brutality >> that are in social media are very similar to those we experienced here as >> well as those of opportunistic civil violence by infiltrators, looting and >> so on. I really hope the social protest there achieves some substantive >> change and it is not just marginalized or reduced to mere chaos. >> >> But first of all, besides entering an academic discussion, I just wanted >> to share with you all my full solidarity. These are very painful moments. >> We went through them. I understand how painful they are. I share your pain >> and grief. >> >> >> David >> >> >> -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!VjCcVqwo37FNejsdxiPn6bFH-Ixi1jWM944UBot8xx2IWC8Uwn-4tSN-Xs4EBc151RjHnw$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!VjCcVqwo37FNejsdxiPn6bFH-Ixi1jWM944UBot8xx2IWC8Uwn-4tSN-Xs4EBc0Igx4qHw$ > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!VjCcVqwo37FNejsdxiPn6bFH-Ixi1jWM944UBot8xx2IWC8Uwn-4tSN-Xs4EBc151RjHnw$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!VjCcVqwo37FNejsdxiPn6bFH-Ixi1jWM944UBot8xx2IWC8Uwn-4tSN-Xs4EBc0Igx4qHw$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200531/957676cb/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun May 31 14:36:38 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 22:36:38 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks David. On Sun, 31 May 2020 at 04:47, David Kellogg wrote: > Huw-- > > Sorry, I'm afraid I can't quite follow the grammar. You are saying that I > leave it up to the students as to whether I do what I preach? > > Well, I try not to preach at all. But I have said--in print and in this > space--that development in the pedological sense cannot apply to adults, > and the people I teach are adults. > > I think that even if they were not adults, I would have to be careful. > There isn't really any important sense in which I am the "ideal form" to > Korean kids: their speech in Korean is generally more developed than my > own. Ditto their culture. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UyGqrK7mGsIO8uUjWKxxdGCZZMGVHOQ_45kP05SMTdv23mXdv9GjZljNBFrLuTOa1EWCdw$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UyGqrK7mGsIO8uUjWKxxdGCZZMGVHOQ_45kP05SMTdv23mXdv9GjZljNBFrLuTMXTOOTEQ$ > > > > > On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 4:10 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >> Thanks, David. >> >> So it seems you leave it up to the students as to whether they take a >> deeper approach to the subject rather than approach the whole course >> developmentally, bluntly: whether you do what you preach. >> >> On Fri, 29 May 2020 at 01:47, David Kellogg wrote: >> >>> Huw-- >>> >>> Weirdly, the two things are connected. One reason that (unmarried) >>> professors were allowed to date their students back in China was that >>> grades were rigorously objective and not, in the end, of much consequence: >>> everybody was getting an assigned job no matter what. >>> >>> There was no grading at all in elementary school when I first arrived in >>> Korea in 1997. Now there are standardized tests but these are not really >>> graded, and it is always emphasized that they are for the purpose of >>> evaluating the schools and the teachers and not the children. In middle >>> school and high school, grades become extremely important, but not as any >>> proxy for interest in subject matter: the government has been trying to >>> weaken the grip of the college entrance exam on admissions and one way to >>> do this is to allow about two thirds of students into university without >>> taking exams, just on the strenght of grades and "performance evaluation" >>> (the source of GREAT corruption in Korean society at present. >>> >>> Me? I am a great believer in grade inflation: during the term I threaten >>> the students quite shamelessly and at the end of the term I always give >>> students the maximum possible grade, stressing that it is not actually >>> connected to achievement or merit or anything except my sincere desire to >>> see the end of the grading system as a whole. The students are a little >>> taken aback, but they play along. Isn't that what grading is really about? >>> To make it a proxy for interest in the subject matter is a little like >>> making spelling a procksie for meening. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UyGqrK7mGsIO8uUjWKxxdGCZZMGVHOQ_45kP05SMTdv23mXdv9GjZljNBFrLuTOa1EWCdw$ >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UyGqrK7mGsIO8uUjWKxxdGCZZMGVHOQ_45kP05SMTdv23mXdv9GjZljNBFrLuTMXTOOTEQ$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 6:24 AM Huw Lloyd >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi David, >>>> >>>> I think you skipped over the attachment to grades as a proxy for >>>> interest in the subject. And I am curious whether you do anything about >>>> that. >>>> >>>> Huw >>>> >>>> On Wed, 27 May 2020 at 22:20, David Kellogg >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Spinoza says that passions (in the sense of something you undergo, >>>>> c.f. "the passion of the Christ") are feelings that increase or decrease >>>>> the capacity of the body for action or the idea of the feeling (!). And, >>>>> alas, I just gave you a pretty good example >>>>> As Mike points out, there are ways of dealing with the unfair attacks >>>>> on Bernstein's legacy that increase the capacity for action many times. >>>>> These tend to be based on the idea of the feeling, and you can find a lot >>>>> of them in the LCHC autobiography and elsewhere. I think you cannot find >>>>> them in the attached article, because I am still undergoing some passion >>>>> over this: for me it is hopelessly inter-twined-and-woven with attacks on >>>>> Ruqaiya Hasan's legacy and the legacy of Halliday with which I am >>>>> intellectually and even emotionally inter-twined and -woven. Sometimes >>>>> (e.g. my last post) it much diminises the capacity of my body, of which my >>>>> feelings are not always the best functioning part, for action. For which I >>>>> apologize to the whole list. >>>>> >>>>> Here in Korea, schools are reopening and classes are going off line >>>>> again. This has been a gradual process, both because different grades have >>>>> different levels of urgency (high schoolers who are entering college are >>>>> considered urgent) and because different ages have different levels of risk >>>>> (again, older kids given to clubbing and courier jobs--the sources of two >>>>> recent spikes--are at greater risk). But yesterday we started second grade >>>>> classes, which means that our Vygotsky Community, which is overwhelmingly >>>>> composed of elementary school teachers, is now back in the classroom. >>>>> >>>>> You can see from this order that one thing that was not discussed was >>>>> the different levels of teacher presence that kids emotionally need. This >>>>> is something teachers themselves are quite sensitive too--it is why >>>>> second-grade teachers are usually motherly women with school age children >>>>> of their own, and sixth-grade teachers tend to look like that physical >>>>> education trainer you were so terrified of in sixth grade. But varying >>>>> levels of need for teacher presence has not really been a factor in public >>>>> health planning at all, nor am I sure it should be. At some point >>>>> (adolescence?), children really do need to differentiate their emotional >>>>> attachment to a subject matter from their emotional attachment to a >>>>> teacher, not just because study has to become self-sustaining to go >>>>> anywhere but because teachers are passionate bodies and this can greatly >>>>> increase but also greatly decrease their capacity for action. In China in >>>>> the eighties, for example, young professors did date their students at >>>>> university level but nobody dated anybody before that. I think that >>>>> here--helping us distinguish passion for the subject matter from passion >>>>> for the instructor--Zoom can also play an important role, the same kind of >>>>> positive role that those goofy parasol-hats they put on Chinese >>>>> preschoolers to enforce social distancing have played. >>>>> >>>>> (By the way, our Vygotsky Community has more than doubled in size >>>>> since the crisis began and we went on-line. Believe me--it's the subject >>>>> matter!) >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>> >>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UyGqrK7mGsIO8uUjWKxxdGCZZMGVHOQ_45kP05SMTdv23mXdv9GjZljNBFrLuTOa1EWCdw$ >>>>> >>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UyGqrK7mGsIO8uUjWKxxdGCZZMGVHOQ_45kP05SMTdv23mXdv9GjZljNBFrLuTMXTOOTEQ$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 1:36 AM Tom Richardson < >>>>> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi David >>>>>> Fortunately I was listening to this thread, so "I hear you!". I shall >>>>>> dig to see what I find about Spinoza in LSV. >>>>>> Big thank you. >>>>>> Tom >>>>>> BoWen >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 22:43, David Kellogg >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Rob-- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks--my link works okay, but it's probably because I'm already >>>>>>> logged in. So I replaced the link with yours. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For a fine example of witless misunderstanding justified with >>>>>>> willfull misrepresentation that was used to drive Bernstein's work out of >>>>>>> the academy, see the work of Peter Jones, referenced in my article. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Peter E. Jones (2013) Bernstein's ?codes? and the linguistics of >>>>>>> ?deficit?, Language and Education, 27:2, 161-179, DOI: >>>>>>> 10.1080/09500782.2012.760587 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Notice the scare quotes around "code" (which Bernstein did >>>>>>> use) and likewise the term "deficit" (which Bernstein explicitly >>>>>>> repudiated). Clever, huh? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But Jones doesn't make this stuff up. He mostly just borrows >>>>>>> from the long liberal anti-Marxist American tradition of this kind of >>>>>>> attack, going back to William Labov. For example, the "linguist" Jones >>>>>>> cites against Halliday is actually a historian of psychology (Jonathan >>>>>>> Edwards) who argues that some cultures can have completely degenerate moral >>>>>>> codes but very advanced languages, such as cannibal savages! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A few years ago we were discussing an article here on xmca by >>>>>>> Marilyn Fleer and I asked her if she was a Bernsteinian. I have always >>>>>>> considered myself one, and I was genuinely curious to find others of a >>>>>>> similar persuasion; Bernstein's name was not so blackened in Australia as >>>>>>> it was in America, and Ruqaiya Hasan, who taught in Sydney, was always >>>>>>> proud to acknowledge Bernstein as her colleague and mentor. Marilyn was a >>>>>>> little indignant. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Michael-- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here in Korea the main way of giving on-line classes is just >>>>>>> uploading audio file which the student then listen to when they have time >>>>>>> and giving lots of homework. Curiously, some of the kids prefer this. ALL >>>>>>> of my students dislike using the camera. I am not sure what to make of >>>>>>> this... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Every crisis is a turning point. Education has gleefully saddled >>>>>>> three cash cows: foreign students, college sports, and diploma mills, >>>>>>> and all three of these are now hamburger. On the one hand, Zoom classes and >>>>>>> audio classes allow us to provide universal college education for almost >>>>>>> nothing--if we can solve the mediational problems. On the other, pinkspace >>>>>>> classes can easily be social-distanced--if we can just make undergraduate >>>>>>> classes the size of graduate seminars (with more classes outside in good >>>>>>> weather). But both solutions--universal online tertiary education and >>>>>>> extending the graduate seminar experience to undergraduates--will >>>>>>> inevitably hinge on the outcome of the struggle to make education an >>>>>>> intellectual public institution instead of a semi-intellectual luxury >>>>>>> brand, and this in turn will hinge on the struggle for preventive medicine >>>>>>> based on foresight instead of astonishment. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Oi, Tom! (Way over on the other thread, so I have to shout!) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Vygotsky writes a LOT about Spinoza; his sister was doing her PhD on >>>>>>> the guy when he was still in high school and he went to stay with her at >>>>>>> Moscow University and caught the bug. He was working on a vast tome on how >>>>>>> Spinoza's work could be retooled to give us a Marxist (materialist, monist, >>>>>>> but dialectical) theory of higher emotions when he died. We are translating >>>>>>> it all into Korean, and I am trying to write a preface. Spinoza believed in >>>>>>> sentient meat: "Deus, Sive Natura" ("God, that is to say, Nature...") Above >>>>>>> all, though, Spinoza believed that emotions are anything that increases or >>>>>>> decreases our ability to do things. The interesting thing, which I am still >>>>>>> trying to wrap my head around, is that one of those things that does this >>>>>>> is the idea of the emotion itself--the perezhivanie. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>>>> >>>>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UyGqrK7mGsIO8uUjWKxxdGCZZMGVHOQ_45kP05SMTdv23mXdv9GjZljNBFrLuTOa1EWCdw$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>>>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UyGqrK7mGsIO8uUjWKxxdGCZZMGVHOQ_45kP05SMTdv23mXdv9GjZljNBFrLuTMXTOOTEQ$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 10:51 PM Glassman, Michael < >>>>>>> glassman.13@osu.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello David, Elizabeth, Annalisa, Rob, others, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well social presence and teacher presence are two completely >>>>>>>> different lines of research and thinking even though they sound alike. >>>>>>>> Teacher presence comes from localized classroom research while social >>>>>>>> presence comes from the communication field I believe sometime in the >>>>>>>> 1960s. Lately I have begun to think of teacher presence as similar to >>>>>>>> Bourdeiu's cultural capital. Our education system teaches certain groups of >>>>>>>> children how to read and get in sync with teachers from their more subtle >>>>>>>> physical signs so that they become more successful later in their school >>>>>>>> careers and in life. Many of the more successful children also get practice >>>>>>>> in reading these different signs at home. It is the old adage, don't listen >>>>>>>> to what I say, watch what I do. Social presence on the other hand is more >>>>>>>> related to our own understanding of our own communications and the value of >>>>>>>> those communications. We have a sense of what we are doing from those who >>>>>>>> are watching us (in the broad sense), and this sense changes as our sense >>>>>>>> of those who are watching us changes not only how we act but the investment >>>>>>>> we make in what we do changes accordingly. I see it all the time in >>>>>>>> teachers, who they are changes completely when they get up in from of a >>>>>>>> room of students. Just a mind experiment. The next time you read an XMCA >>>>>>>> post see if you can imagine a few of the members standing over your should >>>>>>>> observing you are you are reading with the expectation of some response. >>>>>>>> See how this might change your behavior. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As for Zoom. I just think it is not a good tool for education and >>>>>>>> the reason we use it is illusory (because it recreates a place-based >>>>>>>> experience so we are more comfortable with it?). Zoom's purpose is not >>>>>>>> education in the sense of knowledge sharing and knowledge creation. Its >>>>>>>> proximal purpose I believe was to sell to corporations and such for >>>>>>>> meetings so they would not have to spend as much on travel. Its distal >>>>>>>> purpose, meeting platforms in general, was so individuals could engage in >>>>>>>> multiple activities related to the topic but not focused on the topic. I >>>>>>>> mean it is kind of cool, you can have a meeting where you wear a tie on top >>>>>>>> and boxer shorts below. And we are sometimes a talking head culture. But it >>>>>>>> is by nature very unilateral and expert oriented. Do we have to develop a >>>>>>>> whole new cultural capital oeuvre for Zoom meetings. We must make sure that >>>>>>>> those who are ahead stay ahead. Annalisa in answer to your question no >>>>>>>> education or Zoom, I worry about binary choices such as this. Maybe we >>>>>>>> should be asking ourselves how we got here in the first place. Why are >>>>>>>> these our only two choices right now, and many attempts using Meeting >>>>>>>> platforms are failing as they seem to be, how do we move forward from here. >>>>>>>> Why aren't we asking more questions, trying to understand how our great >>>>>>>> digital experiment is failing education. And speaking to Rob's poignant use >>>>>>>> of the term pink space, why is the lack of universal broadband dominating >>>>>>>> discussions. I think about the whole one to one movement and I really >>>>>>>> question why we leaped ahead to this without a reckoning over the need to >>>>>>>> have every corner of our society equitably wired (spoiler alert: because >>>>>>>> instead of corporations making oodles of money our society will have to >>>>>>>> spend oodles of money). So Annalisa I got back to your question, is it >>>>>>>> better to have no education or Zoom and I ask if you stepped on a nail >>>>>>>> would it be better to put on a band-aid to stop the bleeding or to figure >>>>>>>> our how to save your life (I know the answer will be both but where do I >>>>>>>> prioritize). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Michael >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> On Behalf Of robsub@ariadne.org.uk >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 4:53 AM >>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just a couple of very quick observations. (I find regularly that by >>>>>>>> the time I have formulated my response to something, the conversation has >>>>>>>> moved on by several degrees, so I'm getting in quickly.) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Firstly the link to your article on Ruqaiya didn't resolve, David. >>>>>>>> But I found it here: >>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-UtouXiIa-kw$ >>>>>>>> . Thank you for that, though - looks well worth reading. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Secondly, I always had the impression that Bernstein was resisted >>>>>>>> not because of his work on codes specifically, but because he was too prone >>>>>>>> to allowing his work to be used to justify class differentials, almost to >>>>>>>> the level of the poor keep themselves poor by deliberately restricting the >>>>>>>> language their children learn. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thirdly, meatspace. Hmmm. I'm toying with the idea of pinkspace. >>>>>>>> Less physically vulgar than meatspace and reflects the reality that the >>>>>>>> physical world, just like the online world, is dominated by those of us who >>>>>>>> are pink. Just a thought. Needs developing though. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Rob >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2020-05-26 03:08, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>>>>> > Michael, Anthony, Elizabeth--and (of course) Annalisa: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > I apologize for changing the threadline title AGAIN. I feel like >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> > five-year-old who is always unscrewing the back of the TV set to >>>>>>>> see >>>>>>>> > the little people inside; I was very dissatisfied withe the >>>>>>>> abstract >>>>>>>> > theory on the other line, according to which everything is >>>>>>>> everything >>>>>>>> > and mediation and unmediation are equally both and I wanted a way >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> > finding the people inside it. I thought the term "meatspace", >>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>> > Annalisa has heard before, captured that feeling pretty well (and >>>>>>>> > there are also some echoes of a corruscating book review I once >>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>> > in MCA titled something like "Yer askin' me to believe in sentient >>>>>>>> > MEAT????") >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Let's use Michael's categories of "teacher presence" and "social >>>>>>>> > presence" instead, so long as we keep in mind the point that >>>>>>>> Michael >>>>>>>> > made at the end, that is, the teacher is always present even when >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> > teacher is not present (as when the child is doing homework >>>>>>>> alone) and >>>>>>>> > the additional point that teacher presence is one kind of social >>>>>>>> > presence. But because presence and absence are (like mediated and >>>>>>>> > unmediated) equally both ungradeable categories, I would prefer >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> > talk about teacher distancing and social distancing. Michael >>>>>>>> Osterholm >>>>>>>> > has objected to the term social distancing for the same reasons I >>>>>>>> > raised earlier--it's a physical, mechanical distancing that >>>>>>>> actually >>>>>>>> > creates a higher form of solidarity (and that is why the elements >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> > society which oppose higher forms of solidarity oppose it). So I >>>>>>>> put >>>>>>>> > "social distancing" in scare quotes. But the teacher distancing >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> > real enough. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Real but not by itself of developmental significance. What >>>>>>>> worries me >>>>>>>> > is the possibility that we are adding to the kinds of >>>>>>>> inequalitiees >>>>>>>> > that Annalisa, Henry and Tom are talking about on the other >>>>>>>> thread. It >>>>>>>> > seems to me that teacher distancing differentially hurts some >>>>>>>> > populations. I disagree that Koreans are more homogeneous than >>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>> > cultures (in class terms significantly less so) and I also think >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> > if you were to sit through a lecture in the Korean language >>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>> > understanding Korean you would not agree that language is the >>>>>>>> least >>>>>>>> > important aspect of teacher presence. But (to bring these two >>>>>>>> > together) I think that students who are able to focus on >>>>>>>> language, and >>>>>>>> > on particular kinds of language, are disproportionately enabled >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> > conditions of teacher distancing. This is the issue that dare not >>>>>>>> > speak its name, for when Bernstein tried to raise it he was, as >>>>>>>> > Halliday noted, "driven out of the field". One of the reasons I >>>>>>>> wrote >>>>>>>> > the article linked below is that Ruqaiya Hasan was not. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > David Kellogg >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Sangmyung University >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>>>>>> > Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d >>>>>>>> > 7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-Utot_Yz0eEQ$ [1] >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: _L.S. Vygotsky's >>>>>>>> Pedological >>>>>>>> > Works_ _Volume One: Foundations of Pedology_" >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 5270__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqO >>>>>>>> > DPVr-UtotPljj6rQ$ [2] >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Links: >>>>>>>> > ------ >>>>>>>> > [1] >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zc >>>>>>>> > e9P2I5M_FZBJKElhGyP20UejX0w$ >>>>>>>> > [2] >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 5270__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zce9P2I5M_FZB >>>>>>>> > JKElhGyP026P9-1A$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200531/ebb63230/attachment.html From goncu@uic.edu Sun May 31 21:03:52 2020 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 04:03:52 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: USA & Chile social revolts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you, David. Thank you, Mike. artin From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2020 2:23 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: USA & Chile social revolts Thank you, David. We worried through your recent upheavals, but did not have the imaginative empathy to write a similar note to you. Now a lot less imagination is needed and the feeling of solidarity are much appreciated. Your new topic could not be more appropriate to the times we are living in. mike On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 12:34 AM David Preiss > wrote: Dear colleagues and friends of XMCA living int he USA, The images from the unrest in the USA are strikingly similar to those we experienced during our own "estallido social" since last October. Our social revolt was literally quarantined with the arrival of COVID19, and yours started during it. These are very complex days everywhere without any doubt. The main issue we experienced here (previous to COVID19) was how to understand institutional and social violence and how to protect our democracy. Although the unrest in the USA was triggered by a new event of police brutality, the same underlying issues seem to foster the social protest. There are many themes that I see there that are strikingly similar to our situation, including the widespread crisis of legitimacy of the police forces, which relate to issues of race, social and gender inequality. Democracy is not working for a large majority of the population, and is neglecting many vulnerable communities while the rich get unethically richer. That a private company sent a rocket to the international space station the same day that 25 cities in the USA were under curfew summarizes all. In Chile, however, the social unrest was channeled in a wider social movement for social reform and ended up in an agreement to change our constitution, which was about to be voted but COVID19 happened. I have started to work on a project on human rights and the police (not a topic that was in my mainstream area of research but to whom I arrived as a part of a social concern) and will certainly be very attentive to your thoughts on the matter as events unfold. The images of police brutality that are in social media are very similar to those we experienced here as well as those of opportunistic civil violence by infiltrators, looting and so on. I really hope the social protest there achieves some substantive change and it is not just marginalized or reduced to mere chaos. But first of all, besides entering an academic discussion, I just wanted to share with you all my full solidarity. These are very painful moments. We went through them. I understand how painful they are. I share your pain and grief. David -- "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Q_TTT9zlFakbY9fID8U3-OTr_g9P1lJNkZS5w7BG_GYwNt85iTLq5Yjyys9uGwtscm_kkg$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200601/5cc6f16f/attachment-0001.html From preiss.xmca@gmail.com Sun May 31 22:19:50 2020 From: preiss.xmca@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 01:19:50 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: USA & Chile social revolts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you all for your kind responses. Here in Chile the question is not if but when the social upheaval may come back. We have many cases, but the quarantine is making life difficult for many people and unemployment is increasing in worrying numbers by the day. Society is divided now between essential workers at hospitals and the like, mobile information workers at their homes, casual uber-type workers in the streets, and the unemployed. And we have weeks to go before the pandemic allows for an opening. David On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 12:06 AM Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > Thank you, David. Thank you, Mike. artin > > > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *mike cole > *Sent:* Sunday, May 31, 2020 2:23 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: USA & Chile social revolts > > > > Thank you, David. > > We worried through your recent upheavals, but did not have the imaginative > empathy to write > > a similar note to you. Now a lot less imagination is needed and the > feeling of solidarity are much > > appreciated. > > Your new topic could not be more appropriate to the times we are living > > in. > > mike > > > > On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 12:34 AM David Preiss > wrote: > > Dear colleagues and friends of XMCA living int he USA, > > > > The images from the unrest in the USA are strikingly similar to those we > experienced during our own "estallido social" since last October. Our > social revolt was literally quarantined with the arrival of COVID19, and > yours started during it. These are very complex days everywhere without any > doubt. > > > > The main issue we experienced here (previous to COVID19) was how to > understand institutional and social violence and how to protect our > democracy. Although the unrest in the USA was triggered by a new event of > police brutality, the same underlying issues seem to foster the social > protest. > > > > There are many themes that I see there that are strikingly similar to our > situation, including the widespread crisis of legitimacy of the police > forces, which relate to issues of race, social and gender > inequality. Democracy is not working for a large majority of the > population, and is neglecting many vulnerable communities while the rich > get unethically richer. That a private company sent a rocket to the > international space station the same day that 25 cities in the USA were > under curfew summarizes all. In Chile, however, the social unrest > was channeled in a wider social movement for social reform and ended up in > an agreement to change our constitution, which was about to be voted but > COVID19 happened. > > > > I have started to work on a project on human rights and the police (not a > topic that was in my mainstream area of research but to whom I arrived as a > part of a social concern) and will certainly be very attentive to your > thoughts on the matter as events unfold. The images of police brutality > that are in social media are very similar to those we experienced here as > well as those of opportunistic civil violence by infiltrators, looting and > so on. I really hope the social protest there achieves some substantive > change and it is not just marginalized or reduced to mere chaos. > > > > But first of all, besides entering an academic discussion, I just wanted > to share with you all my full solidarity. These are very painful moments. > We went through them. I understand how painful they are. I share your pain > and grief. > > > > David > > > > > > > > > -- > > "How does newness come into the world? How is it born? Of what fusions, > translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VDOJT0bnZrh46nVteaPNDmmpmmBq2ukreQ7RiobtT2oLt738yvgnoouHfRBBLHecU440dA$ > > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200601/29e0026b/attachment.html