[Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency
Andy Blunden
andyb@marxists.org
Tue Jun 30 21:44:50 PDT 2020
"Contradiction" is only a coherent concept insofar as there
is a "logic", i.e., some institution. The general idea is
that all logics contain such contradictions. Institutions
"try" to eliminate contradictions and instantiate a "logic,"
but it turns out to be a losing battle.
Nonetheless, an institution can live forever without
changing despite harbouring contradictions. The structure
has to be subject to critique; the contradictions have to be
exposed and pursued. Movement and change is not automatic.
But yes, you are right, life, let alone social life, is
impossible without "institutions." We continue building that
aeroplane as it flies through the sky. Without institutions,
norms, shared meanings, collaborative activities, trust we
will all die.
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Hegel for Social Movements <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!Vbo2U2NxoEFafJtBUR40AtvkBVYT1KAKn_9LlHZa_fRicMs7nWhBIVZhw2mOPL4Daq3h8g$ >
Home Page <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!Vbo2U2NxoEFafJtBUR40AtvkBVYT1KAKn_9LlHZa_fRicMs7nWhBIVZhw2mOPL4TN5Z-gg$ >
On 1/07/2020 2:16 pm, mike cole wrote:
> Andy -- You write that " The structure is /built around/
> *contradictions" *
> Would it be useful to say, also, that "structures
> /contain/ the *contradictions *minist in social life?
> I am asking because i am thinking of institutions as
> sociocultural structures that coordinate constituent
> activities sufficiently to enable human biocuturalsocial
> re-production..
> mike
> and g'night!
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:06 PM Andy Blunden
> <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>
> At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to have erected
> giant structures, which explicate how a social
> formation reproduces itself. I.e., they look like
> structuralists. But look again. At the heart of
> Hegel's /Logic /and Marx's /Capital /is a
> contradiction. The structure is built around
> *contradictions*. Under the impact of critique, at a
> certain point, the contradiction(s) unfolds as social
> transformation.
>
> Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to incorporate this
> idea in his system with its 4-levels of contradiction,
> and Ilyenkov explains in detail how Marx and Hegel did
> it in his 1960 monograph "The Abstract and Concrete in
> Marx's /Capital/."
>
> andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!VrJ6ogmE0QXMa3fMTmRp6YRhgzkXCIbZ0jSEci2-B6Gvtituftx_3TXEEt7HTGjjKVnsjw$>
> Home Page
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>
> On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote:
>> David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do
>> with the distinctions you are making?
>> Mike
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden
>> <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>>
>> I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism"
>> dates from the beginning of the 20th century and
>> poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That
>> there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's
>> writing is undeniable, and likewise with Hegel
>> and with Vygotsky. But as I see it,
>> "Structuralism" and "Poststructuralism" are
>> specific historically bounded projects. I agree
>> that both of these projects have had an impact or
>> influence on the development of Critical Theory
>> and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist."
>>
>> * https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!Vbo2U2NxoEFafJtBUR40AtvkBVYT1KAKn_9LlHZa_fRicMs7nWhBIVZhw2mOPL47C-upaA$
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!VhKMxK62RuHFPtSiafVaIhcBWu6Corlc8Jwv8StB7faR8dToPmZRX0GyVindCZxvdPoTlw$>
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Hegel for Social Movements
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!VhKMxK62RuHFPtSiafVaIhcBWu6Corlc8Jwv8StB7faR8dToPmZRX0GyVindCZwfv_bGZg$>
>> Home Page
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!VhKMxK62RuHFPtSiafVaIhcBWu6Corlc8Jwv8StB7faR8dToPmZRX0GyVindCZwpXrkYXg$>
>>
>> On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote:
>>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> Marx and Vygotsky both were structural
>>> theorists. My guess/impression is that as
>>> critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved
>>> both have been influenced by poststructural
>>> thought, but neither has made a true
>>> poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either
>>> arena really grappled with the implications of
>>> such a turn.
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On
>>> Behalf Of *mike cole
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM
>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>>>
>>> That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks.
>>> So is cultural marxism one way to deal with
>>> mutability or stability of structure?
>>>
>>> Most of the marxist social science I am reading
>>> these days focuses on transformational agency
>>> and take their roots from Vygotsky
>>>
>>> and (various )predecessors, so this is
>>> post-structuralist Marxism?
>>>
>>> mike
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner
>>> <dkirsh@lsu.edu <mailto:dkirsh@lsu.edu>> wrote:
>>>
>>> S’ma et al.,
>>>
>>> The issue of victimhood and “victim
>>> mentality” is roiled by crosscurrents of
>>> modernist and postmodernist, structuralist
>>> and poststructuralist thought. Victim
>>> mentality is always perspectival—I have been
>>> wronged. In a modernist frame, the
>>> perspective of victim may be able to be
>>> aligned with an overarching (i.e.,
>>> structuralist) account that authorizes its
>>> significance. Critical theory, stemming from
>>> Marxist theory, is such a structuralist
>>> account—or perhaps, more accurately, a
>>> structuralist project as it is not clear
>>> that critical theorists have arrived at
>>> consensus about the theory. Postmodernism
>>> and poststructuralism abandon the
>>> structuralist mandate, accepting that there
>>> is no bedrock structural perspective that
>>> can encompass the variety of local
>>> perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood
>>> is simply my perspective, and the project of
>>> establishing its viability is purely a
>>> political one. Any of us can experience
>>> ourselves as victims, and assert a political
>>> claim to that effect. Interestingly, it is
>>> the political Right that embodies this
>>> poststructuralist critique of victimhood,
>>> and the political Left that orients itself
>>> in structuralism.
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>> *On Behalf Of *Simangele Mayisela
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM
>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a
>>> question.
>>>
>>> Hi Annalisa and colleagues
>>>
>>> Thank you for processing my earlier
>>> articulation in such an impeccable manner. I
>>> see how your method of using definitions as
>>> a foundation for conversations, specially
>>> sensitive conversations in a multicultural
>>> forum such as this one. You have beautifully
>>> demonstrated that in your response below and
>>> in some of your previous enlightening
>>> contributions.
>>>
>>> Your reference to the George Orwell’s 1984
>>> is quite fitting in this situation; when a
>>> victim expresses that they are victimised,
>>> they are then “gaslighted”, as there is
>>> something seriously wrong with their
>>> mentality – the victim mentality. It is
>>> short of saying “do not think” that you are
>>> victimised even if there is “victimisation”,
>>> or you “were” victimised. Perhaps we can
>>> accept better with “survivors” but the
>>> conditions and the context under which”
>>> survivors” continue to survive.
>>>
>>> Ok then, then the survivors develop a
>>> concept, “Critical Theory” to name, and
>>> shine light on the hidden aspects of
>>> “survivorhood”, where the conditions for
>>> thinking about or “reflecting” surviving are
>>> determined and controlled, even those who
>>> have power – “scientific or unscientific”.
>>>
>>> There is undeniable history of efforts and
>>> activities of survivors of different forms
>>> oppressions and genocides, where
>>> generations of survivors have shown
>>> resilience and the ability to move on, but
>>> only to be met with new and systematic ways
>>> of psychological and economic oppression.
>>> Leaving them with no option but to survive
>>> by different means at the disposal,
>>> including becoming religious with the home
>>> for future redemption. Of more interest to
>>> me are those who keep trying using
>>> “enlightened” ways by intellectually
>>> explaining to themselves as a collective and
>>> to the oppressor with the hope to bring
>>> about change for their situation – the
>>> “doing something about their situation.”
>>> Using the analogy of a monopoly game Tameka
>>> Jones Young
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!Vbo2U2NxoEFafJtBUR40AtvkBVYT1KAKn_9LlHZa_fRicMs7nWhBIVZhw2mOPL62fmvnIQ$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fm.facebook.com*2Fstory.php*3Fstory_fbid*3D10158129729940856*26id*3D522190855__*3B!!Mih3wA!VX_uq7D0v43DAvM9nEC46ZStRpXjResRedVQUr9zhmuKYSRyZ34CmtUCYxxDViAr2G5ncg*24*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C3980c805ddde48ffcda308d81ce02bb5*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291096420272281*26sdata*3DwTDn9GfEmrNWmDs7ZKaYDsB6FZCeMUVhqsyWF9XzaeE*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LWe6MGJgg*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C793f465e2c064597a6ec08d81d52307d*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291586126470977&sdata=Uuw6Xaz8ott*2FqhOnnPfx1NVKD7viv29J7hBq6yDOtQU*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUqKioqKioqKioqKioqKiolJSoqKioqKioqJSUqJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5D4stnMCQ$>
>>> (please watch if you a minute to spare) ,
>>> has a way that highlights why “victim
>>> mentality” is not an appropriate, or rather
>>> demeaning of those who are working hard to
>>> be free, let alone to be at par with the
>>> oppressors’ “survivors” if I may say so. The
>>> video is in the context of the gruesome
>>> protests after the murder of George Floyd,
>>> perhaps what is important for this
>>> conversation is the content, the meaning of
>>> her articulations, though her expressions
>>> are accompanied by very strong emotions, I
>>> found her monopoly analogy worth my reflection.
>>>
>>> I must say I owe it to myself to try draw
>>> some links between Cultural Historical
>>> Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and
>>> Social Justice theory, I admire scholars,
>>> some who maybe in this thread who have used
>>> these theoretical lenses in their work in
>>> trying to understand mental development it
>>> the global context. I think Cultural
>>> Historical Activity Theory maybe one of the
>>> appropriate tools to explain that which
>>> concerns Lindsay; how Critical theory is
>>> finding its way of infiltrating critical
>>> spaces in communities, including academia,
>>> which he sees as nothing but “Grievance
>>> Studies” and threatening scientific thinking.
>>>
>>> It has been good partaking in these
>>> conversations. I think reflections can
>>> continue to happen in private at a personal
>>> level and in smaller groups. What is
>>> important is; yes need to reflect on our
>>> thinking and our learning. I myself have
>>> learned a lot from this thread, in conscious
>>> and unconscious ways I transform as I read
>>> your contributions, to the point I at times
>>> pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was
>>> said in this thread.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> S’ma
>>>
>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>> *On Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar
>>> *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37
>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a
>>> question.
>>>
>>> Hello S'ma and venerable others,
>>>
>>> I was intrigued by this notion of Critical
>>> Theory being posed as a "grievance science,"
>>> as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim
>>> mentality" around the shoulders, etc.
>>>
>>> It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it
>>> to that. It is almost as grievous as
>>> Holocaust deniers.
>>>
>>> Still, to consider it analytically, Critical
>>> Theory by design is intended to uncover the
>>> ideologies by which certain social sciences
>>> have been taught and promulgated. It's
>>> de-constructive, right? This stance might be
>>> seen as nihilistic, but there has been some
>>> valuable work from stripping off the veneer
>>> of power structures in order to analyze its
>>> underlying logic, which in many cases has
>>> been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is
>>> usually not earned through merit.
>>>
>>> When considering relations of power, it's
>>> easy (albeit insensitive) for someone of
>>> privilege to name the powerless as
>>> "victims," but when this is done, it is only
>>> in an objection when victims call themselves
>>> victims, as if they have no right to do so.
>>>
>>> So who has the right to use this word "victim"?
>>>
>>> I feel there is a strange aura about the
>>> word that is likened to the word
>>> "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am
>>> wrangling with in my post here.
>>>
>>> Must there be prejudice cast upon those who
>>> are actual and legitimate victims. There
>>> seems intertwined in the meaning of the word
>>> something unquantifiable but that does
>>> result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and
>>> even more insidious, gaslighting, and these
>>> have results of its own harmful effects.
>>> (Like when we say "to add insult to injury").
>>>
>>> Can no one use the word "victim" anymore?
>>>
>>> Frequently people use the word "survivor,"
>>> which does have connotations of resilience
>>> and fortitude against odds (of being
>>> victimized). But when we consider the word
>>> "survivor" when used as the name of a
>>> reality game show (in the early naughts).
>>> where people choose to put themselves in
>>> difficult circumstances on deserted islands
>>> to overcome these circumstances by their
>>> wits, to then be "voted off the island" by
>>> the other "survivors." Talk about social
>>> Darwinism!
>>>
>>> I feel there is still something the word
>>> "survivor" leaves unspoken about the
>>> representation of a person who has been a
>>> target of prejudice, crime, neglect, or
>>> abuse, whether intentionally or not.
>>>
>>> Curious, I looked up the definitions of
>>> "victim" and found these:
>>>
>>> 1. a person who suffers from a destructive
>>> or injurious action or agency: a victim
>>> of an automobile accident.
>>> 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as
>>> by his or her own emotions or ignorance,
>>> by the dishonesty of others, or by some
>>> impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced
>>> confidence; the victim of a swindler; a
>>> victim of an optical illusion.
>>> 3. a person or animal sacrificed or
>>> regarded as sacrificed: war victims.
>>> 4. a living creature sacrificed in
>>> religious rites.
>>>
>>> When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find
>>> this:
>>>
>>> casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt,
>>> clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon,
>>> gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark,
>>> patsy, pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry,
>>> sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker,
>>> underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make,
>>> easy mark, hunted, injured party, sitting
>>> duck, sitting target, soft touch.
>>>
>>> I did the same for the term survivor:
>>>
>>> 1. a person or thing that survives.
>>> 2. Law. the one of two or more designated
>>> persons, as joint tenants or others
>>> having a joint interest, who outlives
>>> the other or others.
>>> 3. a person who continues to function or
>>> prosper in spite of opposition,
>>> hardship, or setbacks.
>>>
>>> Synoymns:
>>>
>>> balance, debris, leftovers, legacy,
>>> oddments, remainder, remnant, remnants,
>>> residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds
>>> and ends, orts
>>>
>>> The third definition seems the lest
>>> frequent usage, or is it the most recent
>>> accepted meaning?
>>>
>>> It is odd to consider victims as designated
>>> parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be
>>> considered mere leftovers.
>>>
>>> Is it that the life energy of victims are
>>> like easily accessible batteries to be
>>> utilized for the benefit of those not
>>> sacrificed? Isn't that what criminals do? To
>>> appropriate the property or energy of others
>>> for their own unearned benefit and advancement?
>>>
>>> Is that fitness or crime?
>>>
>>> t the same time to be a survivor seems to be
>>> something left less whole.
>>>
>>> What then would one call an individual or
>>> group who has been overpowered against their
>>> self-agency by another individual or group?
>>> Is there a word without these undertowing
>>> currents of meaning?
>>>
>>> We can say oppressed, but no one likes to
>>> say "I have been oppressed." or "I am
>>> oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I
>>> have been victimized," "I am a victim," or
>>> "My society is victimized by your society,"
>>> or "My ancestors were enslaved by yours."
>>>
>>> And yet, these would be factual
>>> pronouncements, were legitimate individuals
>>> (victims) of those actual experiences to
>>> describe themselves in this fashion.
>>>
>>> Would it be no different than an individual
>>> saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I
>>> oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize
>>> others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My
>>> society victimizes your society," or "My
>>> ancestors enslaved yours."
>>>
>>> The problem in making these sorts of
>>> statements is that while factual and
>>> descriptive, they can actually be twisted
>>> into being prescriptive. As if to say, "I
>>> did this and I can do it again because
>>> that's who I am." or "This happened to me
>>> and it can happen again because that's who I
>>> am."
>>>
>>> While there are people such as this Lindsay
>>> (I did not watch the video), who can throw
>>> about "victimization" as if it were a
>>> shameful badge to wear, I don't see anyone
>>> of that camp using the same disdain to
>>> describe those who performed grave
>>> injustices against others, to perhaps utter
>>> a phrase like "perpetrator of injustices",
>>> that might invoke that same shadow of shame.
>>> To my estimation, whatever the words, it
>>> would be right and just they should provide
>>> that shadow of shame, given the injustices
>>> that Critical Theory is attempting to
>>> understand, without further empowering
>>> perpetrators and without further
>>> disempowering victims.
>>>
>>> Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse
>>> because a crime performed in past cannot be
>>> adjusted to correct for the crime, that it
>>> somehow means justice cannot be performed?
>>> In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la
>>> vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes
>>> exhuming the "dead bodies" from "unmarked
>>> graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task?
>>>
>>> Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so
>>> hard to bend the arc of justice to meet the
>>> crime?
>>>
>>> In the days of the American Wild West,
>>> justice was doled out too quickly, but now
>>> it seems it is too slowly.
>>>
>>> This is why I wonder how to consider science
>>> when we are talking about power structures.
>>> What is scientific about justice/injustice?
>>> Power seems unscientific. It is arbitrary.
>>> Or is it?
>>>
>>> Were we to describe the cause and effect of
>>> such power structures and their internal
>>> reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi
>>> propaganda, or the promotion of eugenics.
>>>
>>> I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I
>>> saw many years ago, the name of the guest I
>>> don't remember. I only recall he was a
>>> politico for the George W Bush campaign, and
>>> the fellow claimed his favorite book was
>>> Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an
>>> instruction booklet on how to create the
>>> kind of society he wanted. The blatant
>>> honesty was breathtaking.
>>>
>>> Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in
>>> the case of (all forms of) oppression it's
>>> rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some
>>> self-reflection to do to answer for the
>>> deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the
>>> injustices suffered by your ancestors," or
>>> "My sense of privilege allowed me to oppress
>>> you, and I don't feel right about that, so I
>>> will stop that now. I see the errors of my
>>> ways."
>>>
>>> It feels there is no obligation for
>>> reconciliation because such folk percieve
>>> the cement of history has been poured and
>>> dried. "It's in the past, let's move on."
>>>
>>> There is something absurd about the tacit
>>> agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm
>>> trying to sort out how it might be not to be
>>> so absurd sounding.
>>>
>>> Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this
>>> reflection?
>>>
>>> I'm not sure I'm articulating this very
>>> well, but that is my best attempt. Forgive
>>> any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the
>>> typos there above.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>
>>> Annalisa
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on
>>> behalf of Simangele Mayisela
>>> <simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za
>>> <mailto:simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za>>
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM
>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a
>>> question.
>>>
>>> * [EXTERNAL]*
>>>
>>> Hi Andy and Alfredo
>>>
>>> Thank you for responding to my
>>> communication, and for viewing the video I
>>> referred to in my previous email. Let me say
>>> that the connection between the current
>>> conversation about “scientific” knowledge
>>> (in this case in relation to “levels” of
>>> mental development and “ideology”) and James
>>> Lindsay’s argument on Critical Theory having
>>> no scientific basis (in the video) is this:
>>>
>>> Lindsayand his colleagues believe that
>>> Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots
>>> like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race
>>> Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do
>>> not have a scientific base but are a
>>> movement which they call “Grievance
>>> studies”, that perpetuates “self-pity” and
>>> “victim mentality”. They further went on to
>>> produce fake scientific study “dog rape
>>> culture and feminism” known as “hoax
>>> science” as evidence of how unscientific
>>> “grievance studies” are; most of which are
>>> of course are situated in the social
>>> sciences. This further exposed the paucity
>>> in the system of peer reviews in scientific
>>> journals, which some believe are also
>>> tainted by ideological predispositions – my
>>> fear is that this introduces mistrust in the
>>> notion of review processes of scientific
>>> journals - which we have to be concerned about.
>>>
>>> The reason I brought up Lindsay’s argument
>>> to the picture is: while I am not certain if
>>> I wholly agree with Lindsay’s argument on
>>> Critical Theories, I am however fascinated
>>> by the fact that they confirm the influence
>>> of ideological position an individual or
>>> rather a “scientist” holds, ( an idea
>>> alluded to by some, earlier in this thread).
>>> I believe, as much as we aspire to be
>>> objective in our pursuit of scientific
>>> enquiry, the narratives associated with our
>>> scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be
>>> tainted with ideologically biases or
>>> historicity. The likes of Lindsay and
>>> Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers
>>> of the exclusion of the masses in the name
>>> of “scientific evidence” – who in this day
>>> of rapid technological connection the
>>> collective is gradually become global rather
>>> than in specific localities. Even those that
>>> deemed to have “primitive mental
>>> functioning” or “unsophisticated” mental
>>> functioning, their unexpected ability to
>>> infiltrate academia and other spaces with
>>> Critical Theory like a “Trojan Horse”,
>>> that’s according to Bret Weinstein (
>>> po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__http*3A*2F*2Fpo.nl*2F2020*2F06*2F20*2Fmust-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse*2F__*3B!!Mih3wA!QCD7ed0aCRAAlp7GdBrl0meYtbgs9bxM8e7Zg-RtwtTHcq2MHVUupotmjSed87zhqcRqSA*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C793f465e2c064597a6ec08d81d52307d*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291586126480974&sdata=OgkwRQ102d*2BW*2FUntR5jqwUD44OozPBxwZ495zg7NrtI*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5As5j44Bw$>
>>> ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if
>>> Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is
>>> scientific evidence of “self-pity”, “victim
>>> mentality”, unsophisticated mental
>>> functioning, … (we can add other classifying
>>> adjectives to describe all those who have
>>> not developed “scientific tools”).
>>>
>>> My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is
>>> related to some of the sources that I have
>>> encountered earlier, clearly not on this
>>> YouTube video I referred you to, but it is
>>> within this line of debates about
>>> “scientific” knowledge”.
>>>
>>> It seems to me that the association of
>>> Paulo Freire’s “Education for the
>>> Oppressed” to "victim mentality" is kind of
>>> twisted and perhaps mistook for “Education
>>> for the Depressed”, which is unfortunate,
>>> especially if we take into consideration all
>>> the publications by Freire, like Education
>>> for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan
>>> Horse analogy for the Critical Education is
>>> evidence of the collectively formulated
>>> knowledge that is generously shared,
>>> rendering the commodified "scientific"
>>> knowledge accessible to the privileged few,
>>> generously shared to all who needs to
>>> advance the survival of humanity.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Simangele
>>>
>>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za
>>> <mailto:simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za>
>>>
>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>> *On Behalf Of *Andy Blunden
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37
>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a
>>> question.
>>>
>>> Casting collective efforts at
>>> self-determination as "victim mentality" or
>>> "self pity" has long been a line of
>>> right-wing criticism of progressive
>>> movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is
>>> the last to be guilty of such a sin though;
>>> his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like
>>> Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping
>>> people from being victims to
>>> self-determination. There is such a thing as
>>> a politics of pity though; it is called
>>> philanthropy and charity.
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>> Hegel for Social Movements
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!Mih3wA!WCK45j6Y4AscTY1OVN1quxD0_VDKtR1Y9u5SYoUgfTIzhGpvyRCeU6XnFqBCRESHVrtCaw*24*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C3980c805ddde48ffcda308d81ce02bb5*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291096420282275*26sdata*3DoX74*2BlINhl3MWMlwht3oCw5PTrjXyxOQX17*2BfVvxpf8*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LW-P86LBA*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C793f465e2c064597a6ec08d81d52307d*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291586126480974&sdata=IkuUm91U9GMwiGxaDJXhs8w5QnwrCsBLNDtBPb0z6pA*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUqKioqKioqKioqKiolJSoqKioqKioqJSUqKiolJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5BzBwex0g$>
>>> Home Page
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fablunden*2Findex.htm__*3B!!Mih3wA!WCK45j6Y4AscTY1OVN1quxD0_VDKtR1Y9u5SYoUgfTIzhGpvyRCeU6XnFqBCREQ2rLbDLg*24*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C3980c805ddde48ffcda308d81ce02bb5*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291096420282275*26sdata*3D97yLyLrH0AJ5QXEU2RAXGWLVxXa6i54MPGgfam6vXFI*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LU90iyCdw*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C793f465e2c064597a6ec08d81d52307d*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291586126490969&sdata=NqHc8uV*2BR9b3*2BpgP4CeIG*2F8x8fTkOajO08luWCkeAzo*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUqKioqKioqKioqKiUlKioqKioqKiolJSolJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5Ck5wUnZA$>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
>>>
>>> thanks S’ma; among the many philosophy
>>> of science scholars who discuss what
>>> rigorous scientific and scholarship are
>>> or can be, your choice—a video
>>> critiquing critical theory in terms of
>>> what Lindsay refers to as “grievance
>>> studies”–is indeed surprising and
>>> remarkable in the context of this
>>> conversation!
>>>
>>> In the video, which did not so much
>>> touch my small Marxist me (I am not so
>>> well read so as to know how much of a
>>> Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo
>>> Freire’s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an
>>> example of “critical social justice”
>>> books, which he defines as “a codified
>>> way to indulge people into self
>>> pity…”(min. 47:50). He complains that
>>> teachers are being educated with
>>> Freire’s book, and that students are
>>> being taught with this critical (or, as
>>> Lindsay’s says, this self-pity)
>>> attitude. Without going into whether
>>> Lindsay’s critique holds or has any
>>> touch with what critical theory scholars
>>> argue and do, I wonder, what would be,
>>> from Lindsay’s position, an example of a
>>> good book for teachers, and why would
>>> that one be it?
>>>
>>> Alfredo
>>>
>>> *From:
>>> *<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> on behalf of Martin Packer
>>> <mpacker@cantab.net>
>>> <mailto:mpacker@cantab.net>
>>> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture,
>>> Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54
>>> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a
>>> question.
>>>
>>> Hi Simangele,
>>>
>>> How are you evaluating “level of mental
>>> functioning”? I would say that is
>>> something with which psychology has had
>>> some difficulty.
>>>
>>> Martin
>>>
>>> /"I may say that whenever I meet
>>> Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss
>>> matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber,
>>> I become at once aware that my partner
>>> does not understand anything in the
>>> matter, and I end usually with
>>> the feeling that this also applies to
>>> myself” (Malinowski, 1930)/
>>>
>>> On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM,
>>> Simangele Mayisela
>>> <simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za
>>> <mailto:simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Further, I still have more
>>> questions, however it does appear to
>>> me that at the heart of the
>>> “hypothesis” of the scientific
>>> question are the “levels” of mental
>>> development which are associated to
>>> “skin colour”, with little
>>> consideration of the historical
>>> oppression that created the
>>> “backwards” economies that keep the
>>> third of the global population is
>>> what appears to be of low level of
>>> mental functioning. The question is
>>> more about “what is the quality of
>>> the contents of what is embodies by
>>> the black skin or a white skin?”
>>> with the aim to find evidence for
>>> the difference.
>>>
>>> Just to share, lately have been
>>> viewing James Lindsay argument on
>>> what is “scientific”, “rigorous
>>> scientific” and “scholarship” vs
>>> popular narratives that are a
>>> propaganda based on Critical Theory,
>>> which are taking over academy. Here
>>> is one his videos that you may want
>>> to view – if you are Marxist at
>>> heart be warned that you may be
>>> challenged by Lindsay’s argument on
>>> ideologies.
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!Vbo2U2NxoEFafJtBUR40AtvkBVYT1KAKn_9LlHZa_fRicMs7nWhBIVZhw2mOPL5kYgmhGQ$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.youtube.com*2Fwatch*3Fv*3D8N55gFjg4yg__*3B!!Mih3wA!V2LYI2I2g-qSP--eE84G38eGWBud9YwatVDWX1IvY27YgsR7kTdkqVGDNoLNCYNmswIv-Q*24*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C3980c805ddde48ffcda308d81ce02bb5*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291096420292271*26sdata*3DtYB881hofx2qlKcYHVaGFLwJWbzpFnRD8oRsTDV1y3U*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LWZEZpvXQ*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C793f465e2c064597a6ec08d81d52307d*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291586126490969&sdata=QtplwvBnPbeO8pEDjpsqP1r5VP8rKbh4hV6gmpYUbDE*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUqKioqKioqKioqKiolJSoqKioqKioqJSUqJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5Aaswj01g$>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> S’ma
>>>
>>> *From:* Simangele Mayisela
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10
>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture,
>>> Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>> *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your
>>> views on a question.
>>>
>>> Dear Alfredo
>>>
>>> Thank you for taking my attention of
>>> “level” which is crucial to
>>> rendering the question “scientific”.
>>> But couple with level, which could
>>> be quantifies as “high” and “low” or
>>> “superior” or “inferior” would
>>> account for “difference”. As much as
>>> the question to be asked should be
>>> about the “ideological basis” , I
>>> think the “hypothesis” is likely to
>>> be linked to the “ideolody” as the
>>> hypothesis serves as springboard
>>> from which the scientist works from,
>>> which informs where the person will
>>> land in terms of the ideas.
>>>
>>> Nevertheless thank you for the
>>> clarification. I see what you mean ?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> S’ma
>>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under
>> similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the
>> same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious
>> license and oppression over again, and it will
>> surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind.
>> C.Dickens.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Vbo2U2NxoEFafJtBUR40AtvkBVYT1KAKn_9LlHZa_fRicMs7nWhBIVZhw2mOPL6_qTr_Lg$
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Q_q_DNhDoq1Xzty8Vz0Wuuux1nL8ULgJJJ2-vL13YzNjFRpGelADB-JXAxMUbAotW_H_mw$>
>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://re-generatingchat.com__;!!Mih3wA!Q_q_DNhDoq1Xzty8Vz0Wuuux1nL8ULgJJJ2-vL13YzNjFRpGelADB-JXAxMUbAoOrejabA$>
>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu
>> <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>.
>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu
>> <http://lchcautobio.ucsd.edu>.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
>
> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under
> similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same
> tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license
> and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the
> same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Vbo2U2NxoEFafJtBUR40AtvkBVYT1KAKn_9LlHZa_fRicMs7nWhBIVZhw2mOPL6_qTr_Lg$
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!V-mYNb3iJ4MF7rB0hejs8XZr-x47zmuly5qtpqPQPH_4pacZ-MyCn3K8BNOiCivThQbJOQ$>
> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://re-generatingchat.com__;!!Mih3wA!V-mYNb3iJ4MF7rB0hejs8XZr-x47zmuly5qtpqPQPH_4pacZ-MyCn3K8BNOiCiv56BzdDQ$>
> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu
> <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>.
> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu
> <http://lchcautobio.ucsd.edu>.
>
>
>
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