[Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis

Wed Jun 10 16:19:52 PDT 2020

Thank you again.

I will take all I have heard here today into account, especially while
taking in and weighing this latest conversation between....up to this
point....one of my most trusted sources, Glenn L and his pal John:
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/V8fndiNZimA__;!!Mih3wA!Revzo56W0WDvALfT1C9R4jG8W5LNKOrrNM0q2klyKIzw7N1gV8zvbXmvrQAqPcFYgyZudg$ 

Hot off the press, it just came out as we were chatting : )

Anthony

On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net> wrote:

> Well, teaching 8th grade English is certainly a tougher job than mine!
>
> I think all the researchers studying this issue correct for frequency of
> interaction. From what I have read (quickly), the problem some people have
> with Flyer’s analysis is that he made an ‘economic’ correction. Researchers
> make an assumption that the police will want to interact more with people
> who are more likely to be breaking the law, so that they are more likely to
> make an arrest, which is what they get rewarded for. (Whether that is an
> ethical strategy is another matter, though hardly unimportant.) But it
> makes little sense to think that the police will want to interact more with
> people they are more likely to kill. There is no obvious payoff in that.
> But Flyer made that assumption, and corrected his data accordingly.
>
> And of course Peg pointed out that Flyer was using police reports as his
> source of data, which is also a problem. That’s why the Washington Post
> collects data from other sources.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 10, 2020, at 5:31 PM, Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Fair enough.  It was a huge deal in 2016, the big NYT included (thus
> "groundbreaking"), and as far as I can tell, Fryer remains the gold
> standard in this narrow field of research. Obviously, numerous skeptics of
> the 'systemically-racist-America' hypothesis have been morivated to embrace
> Fryer's conclusions, with others motivated against.
>
> I can certainly be wrong, as I am outside my realm of expertise. To use
> Andy's term, my trust network (decidedly NOT right wing on this particular
> issue) has influenced my thinking in terms of the finer grained areas
> outside my own skillset. Maybe I'm wrong, who knows, or maybe this
> counterintuitive information has some merit. At least it's on the table,
> where it should be.
>
> Thank you, Martin. If I have the chance to read even more of Fryer's
> critics, as well as his forthcoming work, I will.  Also, what are some of
> the follow up questions you might ask, re: your post from earlier today?
> For example, I think frequency of interactions (from what I hear,
> correlating more with economic status than to race) is a big variable.
>
> Thanks again,
> Anthony
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net> wrote:
>
>> Hey, Anthony, it was you who brought up Flyer’s work in the first place.
>> There is, I think, no need to shift to an ad hominin argument. I too would
>> like to know if you still consider Flyer’s analysis to be “groundbreaking.”
>> It was published in 2016, and the Washington Post only started collecting
>> data in 2015. What you wrote, in fact, was that Flyer's work was
>> "groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings
>> on the matter).”  What do you say about the critiques of that work, and the
>> more recent findings?
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 10, 2020, at 3:45 PM, Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, Greg.
>>
>> I read all it all in depth 4 years ago (i.e., 4 years before this topic
>> broached your radar).
>>
>> Maybe one day we'll chat when I have faith it will be in good faith.
>>
>> No offense, but it's just how your body of work comes across to me.
>>
>> Anthony
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Anthony,
>>> Have you had a chance to dig into the Fryer data to see whether the
>>> assumptions that he makes in controlling for variables are reasonable? And
>>> whether he is justified in coming up with such a very different conclusion
>>> from the Washington Post research that Martin cited (as well as most
>>> other research that I've seen)?
>>> In your original post, you characterized Fryer's study as
>>> "groundbreaking" so I assume that you had your reasons for giving it such a
>>> positive evaluation and felt it was sound in its reasoning and perhaps had
>>> some kinds of insights that all the other researchers didn't. I'm
>>> interested to hear what you've turned up.
>>> Very best,
>>> greg
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 1:31 PM Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic__;!!Mih3wA!Revzo56W0WDvALfT1C9R4jG8W5LNKOrrNM0q2klyKIzw7N1gV8zvbXmvrQAqPcHrs9_zEA$ 
>>>> e-shootings-database/
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/__;!!Mih3wA!S2mWxWtYZXktNivc9GOaZzE8nQoqJ0TmLqnTuoEidjOQew2pZXQQZXmnKCt6MMPHQ4YmFA$>
>>>>
>>>> In 2015, The Washington Post began to log every fatal shooting
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-year-end/__;!!Mih3wA!S2mWxWtYZXktNivc9GOaZzE8nQoqJ0TmLqnTuoEidjOQew2pZXQQZXmnKCt6MMPUoulQDQ$> by
>>>> an on-duty police officer in the United States. In that time there have
>>>> been more than 5,000 such shootings
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/09/what-weve-learned-about-police-shootings-years-after-ferguson/?arc404=true__;!!Mih3wA!S2mWxWtYZXktNivc9GOaZzE8nQoqJ0TmLqnTuoEidjOQew2pZXQQZXmnKCt6MMNSVXVYTg$> recorded
>>>> by The Post….
>>>>
>>>> Although half of the people shot and killed by police are white, black
>>>> Americans are shot at a disproportionate rate
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/arent-more-white-people-than-black-people-killed-by-police-yes-but-no/__;!!Mih3wA!S2mWxWtYZXktNivc9GOaZzE8nQoqJ0TmLqnTuoEidjOQew2pZXQQZXmnKCt6MMNVto8f_A$>.
>>>> They account for less than 13 percent of the U.S. population, but are
>>>> killed by police at more than twice the rate of white Americans. Hispanic
>>>> Americans are also killed by police at a disproportionate rate.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Martin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 7, 2020, at 12:42 PM, Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>>
>>>> Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 multivariate analysis,
>>>> groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on
>>>> the matter): https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprisin__;!!Mih3wA!Revzo56W0WDvALfT1C9R4jG8W5LNKOrrNM0q2klyKIzw7N1gV8zvbXmvrQAqPcGshgo7RQ$ 
>>>> g-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-
>>>> shootings.html
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html__;!!Mih3wA!S18nvB-bJf3z_eNSjHPT3rWUU-YDJmOewUS-_eVjP4nwhyrQvSiFE_5aqUIHnjG437QrnA$>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in graduate economics,
>>>> though I could be mistaken there.
>>>>
>>>> I respect this community and in no way seek to bring dis- or
>>>> misinformation into it, especially on topics that may require numerous key
>>>> strokes just to get one's footing.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's not argue.
>>>>
>>>> Anthony
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men.
>>>>> What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from
>>>>> very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have
>>>>> strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few
>>>>> key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well
>>>>> founded social science.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions
>>>>> was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to
>>>>> proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The
>>>>> list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is
>>>>> possible in this day and age.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with
>>>>> anybody.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.e
>>>>> du> *On Behalf Of *Bill Kerr
>>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM
>>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> hi Anthony,
>>>>>
>>>>> I watched both videos.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on
>>>>> a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they
>>>>> murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the
>>>>> police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not
>>>>> disproportionate murder of black people.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American
>>>>> race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and
>>>>> MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black
>>>>> disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is
>>>>> the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose
>>>>> in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school
>>>>> experience.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is
>>>>> one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose
>>>>> from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they
>>>>> were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which
>>>>> led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency
>>>>> which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This
>>>>> history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering,
>>>>> but is still not widely understood.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy
>>>>> restlessness, and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone
>>>>> here can relate to!  What a year so far.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone
>>>>> potentially curious:
>>>>>
>>>>> First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!Revzo56W0WDvALfT1C9R4jG8W5LNKOrrNM0q2klyKIzw7N1gV8zvbXmvrQAqPcFjKR46dg$ 
>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!XgM3_X1riF_AYwqfZ7zTT0dslCVEzwkmg1Kw-a63ReNKrqh653kZrirxQ_TR4yBatxTfPw$> featuring
>>>>> Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link
>>>>> that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle
>>>>> commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes:
>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!Revzo56W0WDvALfT1C9R4jG8W5LNKOrrNM0q2klyKIzw7N1gV8zvbXmvrQAqPcGrm1VkXQ$ 
>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!XgM3_X1riF_AYwqfZ7zTT0dslCVEzwkmg1Kw-a63ReNKrqh653kZrirxQ_TR4yB6mIcWCw$>
>>>>>   (as least as far as I've yet encountered).  Coleman shares his
>>>>> perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in
>>>>> these videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut
>>>>> against the headwinds a fair amount.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Anthony
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar <annalisa@unm.edu>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> To the wonderful garden of Us and Them,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the
>>>>> riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46,
>>>>> including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them
>>>>> here and in the streets for a little while still.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the
>>>>> color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for
>>>>> him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle
>>>>> small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy,
>>>>> shouldn't it?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest,
>>>>> we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter
>>>>> violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky
>>>>> chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with
>>>>> flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in
>>>>> unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> NO Vi-Oh-LENCE!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might
>>>>> appreciate.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of
>>>>> desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is
>>>>> just one.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if
>>>>> there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by
>>>>> peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and
>>>>> the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can
>>>>> rationalize their dear riot gear.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and
>>>>> clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is
>>>>> referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha."
>>>>> They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who
>>>>> architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like
>>>>> watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a
>>>>> beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the
>>>>> antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I
>>>>> wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be
>>>>> solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember
>>>>> coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in
>>>>> 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed
>>>>> looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window.
>>>>> Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few
>>>>> nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This
>>>>> morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows
>>>>> boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think
>>>>> these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the
>>>>> night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that
>>>>> street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought
>>>>> maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in
>>>>> there?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray
>>>>> paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in
>>>>> a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are
>>>>> protesting?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African
>>>>> American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the
>>>>> world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah,
>>>>> well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those
>>>>> people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do."
>>>>> I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe
>>>>> it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it
>>>>> will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an
>>>>> interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the
>>>>> entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow
>>>>> built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with
>>>>> this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from
>>>>> another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to
>>>>> heavy.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate
>>>>> more of it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely
>>>>> far more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could
>>>>> ever fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many
>>>>> ways the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being
>>>>> institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental
>>>>> exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about
>>>>> how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like
>>>>> now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled
>>>>> even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human
>>>>> rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right
>>>>> to love one another.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of
>>>>> us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or
>>>>> right.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of
>>>>> us doesn't.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to
>>>>> vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright
>>>>> where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only
>>>>> until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect
>>>>> tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive
>>>>> change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the
>>>>> cynic-within.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a
>>>>> way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you all in advance for your contributions.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Annalisa
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <
>>>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>> Assistant Professor
>>> Department of Anthropology
>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>>> Brigham Young University
>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!Revzo56W0WDvALfT1C9R4jG8W5LNKOrrNM0q2klyKIzw7N1gV8zvbXmvrQAqPcEGizWvLQ$ 
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!Shqs3OD689e0Ovix0bSNtd32esN8kS7Hda_MujiV9bSl5F9BLq3ustuvMvWfrJF8_yJcsQ$>
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!Revzo56W0WDvALfT1C9R4jG8W5LNKOrrNM0q2klyKIzw7N1gV8zvbXmvrQAqPcH13Sy9PA$ 
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!Shqs3OD689e0Ovix0bSNtd32esN8kS7Hda_MujiV9bSl5F9BLq3ustuvMvWfrJGzSE1zhg$>
>>>
>>
>>
>
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