From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Jun 1 09:55:40 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 10:55:40 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?=2215_La_era_est=C3=A1_pariendo_un_coraz=C3=B3n_-_O?= =?utf-8?q?mara_portuondo_y_Mart=C3=ADn_Rojas=22?= In-Reply-To: References: <5B82BBC7-9DFD-4008-B404-37A8ACB4C11B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7D51609B-FFEC-44B6-966B-97B82368D1AC@gmail.com> Hi David, Thank you for that explanation. Double standards. Henry > On May 31, 2020, at 12:26 PM, David Preiss wrote: > > Hi Henry, > This may not sound popular here, but I got tired of the double standard in the left regarding Cuba, which is an ominous family dictatorship. Silvio was inspiring back then in the 80s, when we were fighting Pinochet's dictatorship here, but not now anymore, at least for me. I also happen to know Cuban nationals, which were severely mistreated by the Cuban government. I still enjoy listening to Silvio's music but it is hard for me to do so without a bad taste in my mouth since he never spoke out against the human right violations in his own country and which can't be blamed in the USA embargo (persecution against LGTB is one example of that). > David > > On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 12:25 PM HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > Hi David, > Why did you shift? And to what? > Henry > > >> On May 31, 2020, at 12:55 AM, David Preiss > wrote: >> >> From Silvio himself >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsLKyYa2nfg__;!!Mih3wA!X8lpJgi5b6bEP1maupAGLbq3Twjv-U---Julg1qBE9O-YqQ-Udq5kPv4aqNf7jkj7p3wqg$ >> I was a fan of him in the 80s. Then shifted to others, >> David >> >> On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 3:23 PM Ulvi ??il > wrote: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/qTJzYtd1l7M__;!!Mih3wA!X8lpJgi5b6bEP1maupAGLbq3Twjv-U---Julg1qBE9O-YqQ-Udq5kPv4aqNf7jk3f-Ge3A$ >> >> I think best interpretation of this song. >> >> Ulvi > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200601/569629dc/attachment.html From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Mon Jun 1 11:00:27 2020 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 21:00:27 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Time to remember: "Paul Robeson: On colonialism, African-American rights (Spotlight, ABC, 1960)" Message-ID: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/puOIdh944vk__;!!Mih3wA!W_eNHaZdTXLGABpbNu1o28C2zHePrIKP1uhNPasfPr73wwm8zGeTsr_eLaSaQ8rNFl_PbQ$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200601/d161b6f7/attachment.html From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Mon Jun 1 11:05:44 2020 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 21:05:44 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] "Paul Robeson: On the power of religion and organisation (Spotlight, ABC, 1960)" Message-ID: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/dS-KRBSrhbc__;!!Mih3wA!Vq9B4gEmJNkNwo6QdUUvgPksW6b8m2eiyA__7-tTGbcRr9OpvhsWLswX1JC6lDtPg4xTdA$ What is needed now: Organisation, organisation and organisation. A central one. In each state, in each city. Street by street. And a clear anti-capitalist, socialist revolutionary political program and its socialization. Then, let's watch all these Trump, Biden, Obama and so on. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200601/f7e3678b/attachment.html From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Mon Jun 1 13:30:30 2020 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 21:30:30 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "Paul Robeson: On the power of religion and organisation (Spotlight, ABC, 1960)" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ? - I could not agree more, Ulvi Internationalist Greetings Tom On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 at 19:08, Ulvi ??il wrote: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/dS-KRBSrhbc__;!!Mih3wA!SKttjzxi3qx_of7u6svd7OKLSByiJn72E2aGYfLUNZIUAUEnV6VZ3RPpIld3KzMAqDbKSg$ > > > > What is needed now: Organisation, organisation and organisation. > > A central one. > In each state, in each city. Street by street. > > And a clear anti-capitalist, socialist revolutionary political program and > its socialization. > > Then, let's watch all these Trump, Biden, Obama and so on. > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200601/231ea7aa/attachment.html From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Mon Jun 1 14:59:31 2020 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 00:59:31 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "Paul Robeson: On the power of religion and organisation (Spotlight, ABC, 1960)" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And Trump's last voice record to governors... If that is so, in paralel to getting very well organized, aiming at liquidating looting as a backward social behavior from the whole movement (because it is a deorganizing behavior), getting armed and to establish armed worker militia everywhere. Isn't it free to get arms in united states? It would be absurd now to object that working- class would not get armed when under this brutal agression from capitalist class' state. To direct capitalist class' own arm to itself for self-defence. This latter, for the time being until next step. People's defence committees made up of workers militia. 1 Haz 2020 Pzt 23:33 tarihinde Tom Richardson < tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> ?unu yazd?: > ? - I could not agree more, Ulvi > Internationalist Greetings > > Tom > > > > > On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 at 19:08, Ulvi ??il wrote: > >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/dS-KRBSrhbc__;!!Mih3wA!Si6-8v8tCyFHzDZ-f9sbw8cijIOk9X8bY27X4bU6F61TcU0g213UYMtt8lk4nutDjpCA9g$ >> >> >> >> What is needed now: Organisation, organisation and organisation. >> >> A central one. >> In each state, in each city. Street by street. >> >> And a clear anti-capitalist, socialist revolutionary political program >> and its socialization. >> >> Then, let's watch all these Trump, Biden, Obama and so on. >> >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200602/191a2d5d/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Mon Jun 1 18:55:35 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 21:55:35 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?=2215_La_era_est=C3=A1_pariendo_un_coraz=C3=B3n_-_O?= =?utf-8?q?mara_portuondo_y_Mart=C3=ADn_Rojas=22?= In-Reply-To: References: <5B82BBC7-9DFD-4008-B404-37A8ACB4C11B@gmail.com> Message-ID: David, nearly half of my family are exiled Cubans; I will be brief and will say no more on the matter: you are correct. Anthony On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 2:28 PM David Preiss wrote: > Hi Henry, > This may not sound popular here, but I got tired of the double standard in > the left regarding Cuba, which is an ominous family dictatorship. Silvio > was inspiring back then in the 80s, when we were fighting Pinochet's > dictatorship here, but not now anymore, at least for me. I also happen to > know Cuban nationals, which were severely mistreated by the Cuban > government. I still enjoy listening to Silvio's music but it is hard for me > to do so without a bad taste in my mouth since he never spoke out against > the human right violations in his own country and which can't be blamed in > the USA embargo (persecution against LGTB is one example of that). > David > > On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 12:25 PM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Hi David, >> Why did you shift? And to what? >> Henry >> >> >> On May 31, 2020, at 12:55 AM, David Preiss wrote: >> >> From Silvio himself >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsLKyYa2nfg__;!!Mih3wA!QBwchBoIy45AObM611CdDAvshH0IV-BcStZM3DxtDRIt30BC_qxQNpvCFVeQ5xlZ4-eY2Q$ >> >> I was a fan of him in the 80s. Then shifted to others, >> David >> >> On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 3:23 PM Ulvi ??il wrote: >> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/qTJzYtd1l7M__;!!Mih3wA!QBwchBoIy45AObM611CdDAvshH0IV-BcStZM3DxtDRIt30BC_qxQNpvCFVeQ5xnZ-jusXA$ >>> >>> >>> >>> I think best interpretation of this song. >>> >>> Ulvi >>> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200601/ddde789f/attachment.html From preiss.xmca@gmail.com Mon Jun 1 22:35:18 2020 From: preiss.xmca@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 01:35:18 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?=2215_La_era_est=C3=A1_pariendo_un_coraz=C3=B3n_-_O?= =?utf-8?q?mara_portuondo_y_Mart=C3=ADn_Rojas=22?= In-Reply-To: References: <5B82BBC7-9DFD-4008-B404-37A8ACB4C11B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks for sharing that, Anthony. My solidarity with you all. On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 9:58 PM Anthony Barra wrote: > David, nearly half of my family are exiled Cubans; I will be brief and > will say no more on the matter: you are correct. > > Anthony > > On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 2:28 PM David Preiss > wrote: > >> Hi Henry, >> This may not sound popular here, but I got tired of the double standard >> in the left regarding Cuba, which is an ominous family dictatorship. Silvio >> was inspiring back then in the 80s, when we were fighting Pinochet's >> dictatorship here, but not now anymore, at least for me. I also happen to >> know Cuban nationals, which were severely mistreated by the Cuban >> government. I still enjoy listening to Silvio's music but it is hard for me >> to do so without a bad taste in my mouth since he never spoke out against >> the human right violations in his own country and which can't be blamed in >> the USA embargo (persecution against LGTB is one example of that). >> David >> >> On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 12:25 PM HENRY SHONERD >> wrote: >> >>> Hi David, >>> Why did you shift? And to what? >>> Henry >>> >>> >>> On May 31, 2020, at 12:55 AM, David Preiss >>> wrote: >>> >>> From Silvio himself >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsLKyYa2nfg__;!!Mih3wA!TJHbe-p-A7EBMPKwWi_2yevKvzI1gonPHpHyTMKSMuvRCUVmPaW3zWc41XL9qfwjSjB53g$ >>> >>> I was a fan of him in the 80s. Then shifted to others, >>> David >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 3:23 PM Ulvi ??il wrote: >>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/qTJzYtd1l7M__;!!Mih3wA!TJHbe-p-A7EBMPKwWi_2yevKvzI1gonPHpHyTMKSMuvRCUVmPaW3zWc41XL9qfw6_LCYEA$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I think best interpretation of this song. >>>> >>>> Ulvi >>>> >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200602/bbf5648f/attachment.html From billkerr@gmail.com Mon Jun 1 22:53:54 2020 From: billkerr@gmail.com (Bill Kerr) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 15:23:54 +0930 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?=2215_La_era_est=C3=A1_pariendo_un_coraz=C3=B3n_-_O?= =?utf-8?q?mara_portuondo_y_Mart=C3=ADn_Rojas=22?= In-Reply-To: <58ECF3D2-737A-4255-B7A0-081D480DE962@gmail.com> References: <58ECF3D2-737A-4255-B7A0-081D480DE962@gmail.com> Message-ID: I ran the lyrics past a Spanish speaking friend and she came up with the following: Firstly, I love Silvio Rodriquez, but he is incredibly difficult to translate as his songs are definitely poetry too. Also, my Spanish is pretty rusty. I read a few different people?s discussion of the song?s meaning, written in Spanish. I couldn?t really find any translation that made sense. They are all too literal. This is what I have come up with. The song poses the question of how we can live and enjoy our lives when there is so much suffering in the world. The answer is in solidarity. La era est? pariendo un coraz?n No puede m?s, se muere de dolor Y hay que acudir corriendo Pues se cae el porvenir En cualquier selva del mundo En cualquier call This era is growing a heart (as in a collective heart/spirit) The burden is too much, it will die of pain. We need to hurry to help Because the future is breaking in every part of the world On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 5:04 AM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Ulvi, > I know this version. I am pretty sure I first heard a different version > long ago. > I realize that I mistranslated the ?La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n?. > It should be ?An era is giving birth to a heart? But then, ?No puede m?s, > se muere de dolor?, must mean that the era itself is experiencing the pain > as it gives birth to the heart. > Henry > > > On Apr 25, 2020, at 1:19 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/qTJzYtd1l7M__;!!Mih3wA!RlsLPJM7q3hy1ZCXKs9uk62W99dr1--ar-57619pYIWTdHfJ_nkzbH7WlUe0L6jYNSojbA$ > > > > I think best interpretation of this song. > > Ulvi > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200602/5e42da44/attachment.html From billkerr@gmail.com Mon Jun 1 23:08:33 2020 From: billkerr@gmail.com (Bill Kerr) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 15:38:33 +0930 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?=2215_La_era_est=C3=A1_pariendo_un_coraz=C3=B3n_-_O?= =?utf-8?q?mara_portuondo_y_Mart=C3=ADn_Rojas=22?= In-Reply-To: <58ECF3D2-737A-4255-B7A0-081D480DE962@gmail.com> References: <58ECF3D2-737A-4255-B7A0-081D480DE962@gmail.com> Message-ID: I ran the lyrics past a Spanish speaking friend and this is what she came up with: Firstly, I love Silvio Rodriquez, but he is incredibly difficult to translate as his songs are definitely poetry too. Also, my Spanish is pretty rusty. I read a few different people?s discussion of the song?s meaning, written in Spanish. I couldn?t really find any translation that made sense. They are all too literal. This is what I have come up with. The song poses the question of how we can live and enjoy our lives when there is so much suffering in the world. The answer is in solidarity. La era est? pariendo un coraz?n No puede m?s, se muere de dolor Y hay que acudir corriendo Pues se cae el porvenir En cualquier selva del mundo En cualquier call This era is growing a heart (as in a collective heart/spirit) The burden is too much, it will die of pain. We need to hurry to help Because the future is breaking in every part of the world On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 5:04 AM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Ulvi, > I know this version. I am pretty sure I first heard a different version > long ago. > I realize that I mistranslated the ?La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n?. > It should be ?An era is giving birth to a heart? But then, ?No puede m?s, > se muere de dolor?, must mean that the era itself is experiencing the pain > as it gives birth to the heart. > Henry > > > On Apr 25, 2020, at 1:19 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/qTJzYtd1l7M__;!!Mih3wA!UJG1vLfRSt30f_adTTbMXJJripeUjlqAkE6lNcBFslBuiULucSSl63xdwtCOaQ02F6E33Q$ > > > > I think best interpretation of this song. > > Ulvi > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200602/6e08ebf6/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Jun 2 12:53:25 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 13:53:25 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?=2215_La_era_est=C3=A1_pariendo_un_coraz=C3=B3n_-_O?= =?utf-8?q?mara_portuondo_y_Mart=C3=ADn_Rojas=22?= In-Reply-To: References: <58ECF3D2-737A-4255-B7A0-081D480DE962@gmail.com> Message-ID: <69465277-AF59-426A-BDAD-52D0DB4871E4@gmail.com> Mi Gente, I was watching a terribly down, but beautiful, movie that was just released on Netflix, Ya No Estoy, about Ul?ses, a 17 year-old living in a gang-dominated barrio in Monterrey, a totally cool kid, devoted to hip hop in the streets to the music of the Cumbia. He has to escape to NYC to keep from being killed. Ulises finds more violence and less understanding there and returns to Monterrey to his certain death. As I am watching the film, I hear in the next room my wife crying out in distress. I ask her why and she tells me that the Kimo, a beautiful art deco performance space in downtown Albuquerque (I live in the North Valley), has been burned: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KiMo_Theater__;!!Mih3wA!TMsTYBOglSLvWI4GpFSQfkVB9bQ2s5OoV_9pHiDkWrizHd9H2AheS8_iopyTfgXIw04bPQ$ Then I see one of the most uplifting movies I have ever seen called Quincy, about Quincy Jones, who produced music with Frank Sinatra to Michael Jackson, as well as the We Are The World concert. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quincy_Jones__;!!Mih3wA!TMsTYBOglSLvWI4GpFSQfkVB9bQ2s5OoV_9pHiDkWrizHd9H2AheS8_iopyTfgVDcgQrhw$ This morning I bicycled south to see the damage to the Kimo. I was relieved to see that the damage was only broken windows. But I was saddened, disappointed and alarmed that such things are done in reaction to the death of George Floyd. To deface or destroy something beautiful in the name of justice makes no sense to me. And it plays into Trump?s hands. But to embellish the story from broken windows to a fire that might even have threatened the structural integrity of the Kimo, that is what an echo chamber does. We have to do better, folks. Maybe we should be dancing in the streets and joyfully, if tearfully, to honor Mr. George?s death. Quincy knew what he was doing. So did Ul?ses. Henry P.S. So did Bill Withers:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkaexjc-1os__;!!Mih3wA!TMsTYBOglSLvWI4GpFSQfkVB9bQ2s5OoV_9pHiDkWrizHd9H2AheS8_iopyTfgVeqYzrCA$ > On Jun 2, 2020, at 12:08 AM, Bill Kerr wrote: > > I ran the lyrics past a Spanish speaking friend and this is what she came up with: > > Firstly, I love Silvio Rodriquez, but he is incredibly difficult to translate as his songs are definitely poetry too. Also, my Spanish is pretty rusty. > > I read a few different people?s discussion of the song?s meaning, written in Spanish. I couldn?t really find any translation that made sense. They are all too literal. > > This is what I have come up with. > > The song poses the question of how we can live and enjoy our lives when there is so much suffering in the world. The answer is in solidarity. > > La era est? pariendo un coraz?n > No puede m?s, se muere de dolor > Y hay que acudir corriendo > Pues se cae el porvenir > En cualquier selva del mundo > En cualquier call > > This era is growing a heart (as in a collective heart/spirit) > The burden is too much, it will die of pain. > We need to hurry to help > Because the future is breaking in every part of the world > > > On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 5:04 AM HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > Ulvi, > I know this version. I am pretty sure I first heard a different version long ago. > I realize that I mistranslated the ?La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n?. > It should be ?An era is giving birth to a heart? But then, ?No puede m?s, se muere de dolor?, must mean that the era itself is experiencing the pain as it gives birth to the heart. > Henry > > >> On Apr 25, 2020, at 1:19 PM, Ulvi ??il > wrote: >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/qTJzYtd1l7M__;!!Mih3wA!TMsTYBOglSLvWI4GpFSQfkVB9bQ2s5OoV_9pHiDkWrizHd9H2AheS8_iopyTfgUxUbtgxw$ >> >> I think best interpretation of this song. >> >> Ulvi > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200602/f1fed3a4/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Jun 2 13:06:29 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 14:06:29 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Just Beyond Yourself Message-ID: At the risk of wearing out my welcome: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://onbeing.org/poetry/just-beyond-yourself/__;!!Mih3wA!UPAMqusnv2MhXBZz41P49rcFanoh8yFoP6AsRT_E76AVneshaWT269VXALZiRhW5-Tz7GQ$ David Whyte is an Irish poet I have just met through the meditation ap Waking Up with Sam Harris. He has been designated as a racist by the Southern Poverty Law Center, whose founder Morris Dees, was recently fired, apparently for a pattern of me too moments. Judge not. Henry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200602/b2e7f6be/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Tue Jun 2 14:09:24 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 17:09:24 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Just Beyond Yourself In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's a real nice reading. Thanks for sharing. And don't worry ~ these days, getting dinged by the shell-of-its-former-self SPLC is often more badge than black mark. Anthony On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 4:09 PM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > At the risk of wearing out my welcome: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://onbeing.org/poetry/just-beyond-yourself/__;!!Mih3wA!QYp2xcBoOEXWryu7llraXfzzvGMYfWOmzfiD9TkD64J3kJKK-oUR3UNsYbRwwA0ipa7joA$ > > David Whyte is an Irish poet I have just met through the meditation ap > Waking Up with Sam Harris. He has been designated as a racist by the > Southern Poverty Law Center, whose founder Morris Dees, was recently fired, > apparently for a pattern of me too moments. Judge not. > Henry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200602/3c1c3d55/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Jun 2 14:44:39 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 15:44:39 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Just Beyond Yourself In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0B960571-ABB9-4B89-99B8-DC3285FCF481@gmail.com> Anthony, I appreciate your pointing out that the SPLC used to do great work. Was it that Dees lost his way or that what used to be acceptable no longer is? Maybe both? My sense, and that of Sam Harris, is that the left eats its own. And that what he calls ?moral panic? around issues of sexism and racism, has gripped campuses around the country so that he (Harris) can?t have an honest conversation with people on the Left. Plays right into Trump?s hands. Henry > On Jun 2, 2020, at 3:09 PM, Anthony Barra wrote: > > That's a real nice reading. Thanks for sharing. > > > And don't worry ~ these days, getting dinged by the shell-of-its-former-self SPLC is often more badge than black mark. > > > Anthony > > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 4:09 PM HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > At the risk of wearing out my welcome: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://onbeing.org/poetry/just-beyond-yourself/__;!!Mih3wA!RIUTpjQnVxC8jC9nCKdLPohb7jXki3hQLVnhT-DNp1yyIZubMHsJR_WefLkHuXhAanjUvw$ > David Whyte is an Irish poet I have just met through the meditation ap Waking Up with Sam Harris. He has been designated as a racist by the Southern Poverty Law Center, whose founder Morris Dees, was recently fired, apparently for a pattern of me too moments. Judge not. > Henry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200602/d083e2cc/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Tue Jun 2 14:45:04 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 17:45:04 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?=2215_La_era_est=C3=A1_pariendo_un_coraz=C3=B3n_-_O?= =?utf-8?q?mara_portuondo_y_Mart=C3=ADn_Rojas=22?= In-Reply-To: <69465277-AF59-426A-BDAD-52D0DB4871E4@gmail.com> References: <58ECF3D2-737A-4255-B7A0-081D480DE962@gmail.com> <69465277-AF59-426A-BDAD-52D0DB4871E4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello again, Henry. Your "Kimo" post is interesting in a number of ways, thanks. Shortly after reading it, I stumbled across this sociohistorical piece via Twitter -- and it reads as if it originated in a more right-leaning xmca type community: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/hub-city-riot-ninjas__;!!Mih3wA!SQ01TbPk4LQUbmiH5pCKDGArwbFGjmuMZhcCU6Ijfz5eOIhxLn-keX0YyFXoduFm4BhiAQ$ (*By the way, does anybody know if such a listserv exists? I.e., a more right-tilted "forum for a community of interdisciplinary scholars who share an interest in the study of human mind in its cultural and historical contexts"? That would be really interesting to check out, though I get the sense that XMCA is truly a one-of-kind, global locale. Nonetheless Henry, a number of passages, regardless of their accuracy, efficacy, or purity, brought your "Kimo" post to mind, including this one: "While the initial occasion of a protest may be the death of a member of a minority group in police custody, affluent young white leftists are more interested in symbolic violence against capitalism or patriarchy or whatever. These children of the economic elite end up harming those on whose behalf they pretend to be speaking." Thanks again for the cool poem. Anthony On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 3:56 PM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Mi Gente, > I was watching a terribly down, but beautiful, movie that was just > released on Netflix, Ya No Estoy, about Ul?ses, a 17 year-old living in a > gang-dominated barrio in Monterrey, a totally cool kid, devoted to hip hop > in the streets to the music of the Cumbia. He has to escape to NYC to keep > from being killed. Ulises finds more violence and less understanding there > and returns to Monterrey to his certain death. As I am watching the film, I > hear in the next room my wife crying out in distress. I ask her why and she > tells me that the Kimo, a beautiful art deco performance space in downtown > Albuquerque (I live in the North Valley), has been burned: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KiMo_Theater__;!!Mih3wA!SQ01TbPk4LQUbmiH5pCKDGArwbFGjmuMZhcCU6Ijfz5eOIhxLn-keX0YyFXoduHxCYobYA$ > > Then I see one of the most uplifting movies I have ever seen called > Quincy, about Quincy Jones, who produced music with Frank Sinatra to > Michael Jackson, as well as the We Are The World concert. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quincy_Jones__;!!Mih3wA!SQ01TbPk4LQUbmiH5pCKDGArwbFGjmuMZhcCU6Ijfz5eOIhxLn-keX0YyFXoduG84bQTkA$ > > This morning I bicycled south to see the damage to the Kimo. I was > relieved to see that the damage was only broken windows. But I was > saddened, disappointed and alarmed that such things are done in reaction to > the death of George Floyd. To deface or destroy something beautiful in the > name of justice makes no sense to me. And it plays into Trump?s hands. But > to embellish the story from broken windows to a fire that might even have > threatened the structural integrity of the Kimo, that is what an echo > chamber does. > We have to do better, folks. Maybe we should be dancing in the streets and > joyfully, if tearfully, to honor Mr. George?s death. Quincy knew what he > was doing. So did Ul?ses. > Henry > P.S. So did Bill Withers:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkaexjc-1os__;!!Mih3wA!SQ01TbPk4LQUbmiH5pCKDGArwbFGjmuMZhcCU6Ijfz5eOIhxLn-keX0YyFXoduGpdnyz6A$ > > > > > > > On Jun 2, 2020, at 12:08 AM, Bill Kerr wrote: > > I ran the lyrics past a Spanish speaking friend and this is what she came > up with: > > Firstly, I love Silvio Rodriquez, but he is incredibly difficult to > translate as his songs are definitely poetry too. Also, my Spanish is > pretty rusty. > > I read a few different people?s discussion of the song?s meaning, written > in Spanish. I couldn?t really find any translation that made sense. They > are all too literal. > > This is what I have come up with. > > The song poses the question of how we can live and enjoy our lives when > there is so much suffering in the world. The answer is in solidarity. > > La era est? pariendo un coraz?n > No puede m?s, se muere de dolor > Y hay que acudir corriendo > Pues se cae el porvenir > En cualquier selva del mundo > En cualquier call > > This era is growing a heart (as in a collective heart/spirit) > The burden is too much, it will die of pain. > We need to hurry to help > Because the future is breaking in every part of the world > > > > On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 5:04 AM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Ulvi, >> I know this version. I am pretty sure I first heard a different version >> long ago. >> I realize that I mistranslated the ?La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n?. >> It should be ?An era is giving birth to a heart? But then, ?No puede m?s, >> se muere de dolor?, must mean that the era itself is experiencing the pain >> as it gives birth to the heart. >> Henry >> >> >> On Apr 25, 2020, at 1:19 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/qTJzYtd1l7M__;!!Mih3wA!SQ01TbPk4LQUbmiH5pCKDGArwbFGjmuMZhcCU6Ijfz5eOIhxLn-keX0YyFXoduHmxErQHA$ >> >> >> >> I think best interpretation of this song. >> >> Ulvi >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200602/a65a159a/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Jun 2 20:36:49 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 21:36:49 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?=2215_La_era_est=C3=A1_pariendo_un_coraz=C3=B3n_-_O?= =?utf-8?q?mara_portuondo_y_Mart=C3=ADn_Rojas=22?= In-Reply-To: References: <58ECF3D2-737A-4255-B7A0-081D480DE962@gmail.com> <69465277-AF59-426A-BDAD-52D0DB4871E4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Anthony, I finally got a chance to read the article. I t confirms my sense that the breaking windows on Central for about 6 blocks in Albuquerque does Black people no good and strengthens Trump, But I have concerns about the article as a description of what happened here. I wonder just what percentage of the young white people that did it are from really affluent families? The article implies that that it?s all of them. I don?t think so. Maybe it?s because this is New Mexico and we are typically at the bottom of every ranking on income, education and child welfare. Nor do I think that most of them have great prospects financially. Also, many could be young people of color since there are not many Black people in New Mexico, but a lot of Hispanics and Native Americans. Behind a mask, how would you know who?s white and who not? Now a countervailing narrative is that 1) right wingers from outside are the violent ones and 2) bricks are being made available in large amounts by outsiders, right wing, instigators. The violence (to property) happened after peaceful protests in Albuquerque . And one more thing about the scale of the property damage. Here it was minor?so far. Stores will be back in business pretty soon, with particle board in place, as if preparing for a hurricane. Windows aren?t cheap, but insurance will take care of that. Finally, the violence has been to property and no one has been injured on either side as far as I know. Henry > On Jun 2, 2020, at 3:45 PM, Anthony Barra wrote: > > Hello again, Henry. > > Your "Kimo" post is interesting in a number of ways, thanks. > > Shortly after reading it, I stumbled across this sociohistorical piece via Twitter -- and it reads as if it originated in a more right-leaning xmca type community: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/hub-city-riot-ninjas__;!!Mih3wA!T6gVLVZvkU6Jsyvuf5lcvb1s49VNqIQuBpcFPMnqCcfx96TH9-vi6JaCf-CHgHKiTk9MPQ$ (*By the way, does anybody know if such a listserv exists? I.e., a more right-tilted "forum for a community of interdisciplinary scholars who share an interest in the study of human mind in its cultural and historical contexts"? That would be really interesting to check out, though I get the sense that XMCA is truly a one-of-kind, global locale. > > Nonetheless Henry, a number of passages, regardless of their accuracy, efficacy, or purity, brought your "Kimo" post to mind, including this one: > "While the initial occasion of a protest may be the death of a member of a minority group in police custody, affluent young white leftists are more interested in symbolic violence against capitalism or patriarchy or whatever. > These children of the economic elite end up harming those on whose behalf they pretend to be speaking." > > Thanks again for the cool poem. > > Anthony > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 3:56 PM HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > Mi Gente, > I was watching a terribly down, but beautiful, movie that was just released on Netflix, Ya No Estoy, about Ul?ses, a 17 year-old living in a gang-dominated barrio in Monterrey, a totally cool kid, devoted to hip hop in the streets to the music of the Cumbia. He has to escape to NYC to keep from being killed. Ulises finds more violence and less understanding there and returns to Monterrey to his certain death. As I am watching the film, I hear in the next room my wife crying out in distress. I ask her why and she tells me that the Kimo, a beautiful art deco performance space in downtown Albuquerque (I live in the North Valley), has been burned: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KiMo_Theater__;!!Mih3wA!T6gVLVZvkU6Jsyvuf5lcvb1s49VNqIQuBpcFPMnqCcfx96TH9-vi6JaCf-CHgHLS0U7d4w$ > Then I see one of the most uplifting movies I have ever seen called Quincy, about Quincy Jones, who produced music with Frank Sinatra to Michael Jackson, as well as the We Are The World concert. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quincy_Jones__;!!Mih3wA!T6gVLVZvkU6Jsyvuf5lcvb1s49VNqIQuBpcFPMnqCcfx96TH9-vi6JaCf-CHgHJQ_UqCyw$ > This morning I bicycled south to see the damage to the Kimo. I was relieved to see that the damage was only broken windows. But I was saddened, disappointed and alarmed that such things are done in reaction to the death of George Floyd. To deface or destroy something beautiful in the name of justice makes no sense to me. And it plays into Trump?s hands. But to embellish the story from broken windows to a fire that might even have threatened the structural integrity of the Kimo, that is what an echo chamber does. > We have to do better, folks. Maybe we should be dancing in the streets and joyfully, if tearfully, to honor Mr. George?s death. Quincy knew what he was doing. So did Ul?ses. > Henry > P.S. So did Bill Withers:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkaexjc-1os__;!!Mih3wA!T6gVLVZvkU6Jsyvuf5lcvb1s49VNqIQuBpcFPMnqCcfx96TH9-vi6JaCf-CHgHL74jZKkw$ > > > > > >> On Jun 2, 2020, at 12:08 AM, Bill Kerr > wrote: >> >> I ran the lyrics past a Spanish speaking friend and this is what she came up with: >> >> Firstly, I love Silvio Rodriquez, but he is incredibly difficult to translate as his songs are definitely poetry too. Also, my Spanish is pretty rusty. >> >> I read a few different people?s discussion of the song?s meaning, written in Spanish. I couldn?t really find any translation that made sense. They are all too literal. >> >> This is what I have come up with. >> >> The song poses the question of how we can live and enjoy our lives when there is so much suffering in the world. The answer is in solidarity. >> >> La era est? pariendo un coraz?n >> No puede m?s, se muere de dolor >> Y hay que acudir corriendo >> Pues se cae el porvenir >> En cualquier selva del mundo >> En cualquier call >> >> This era is growing a heart (as in a collective heart/spirit) >> The burden is too much, it will die of pain. >> We need to hurry to help >> Because the future is breaking in every part of the world >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 5:04 AM HENRY SHONERD > wrote: >> Ulvi, >> I know this version. I am pretty sure I first heard a different version long ago. >> I realize that I mistranslated the ?La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n?. >> It should be ?An era is giving birth to a heart? But then, ?No puede m?s, se muere de dolor?, must mean that the era itself is experiencing the pain as it gives birth to the heart. >> Henry >> >> >>> On Apr 25, 2020, at 1:19 PM, Ulvi ??il > wrote: >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/qTJzYtd1l7M__;!!Mih3wA!T6gVLVZvkU6Jsyvuf5lcvb1s49VNqIQuBpcFPMnqCcfx96TH9-vi6JaCf-CHgHIkYCtgRw$ >>> >>> I think best interpretation of this song. >>> >>> Ulvi >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200602/fe7df044/attachment.html From haydizulfei@gmail.com Tue Jun 2 23:43:42 2020 From: haydizulfei@gmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 11:13:42 +0430 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?=2215_La_era_est=C3=A1_pariendo_un_coraz=C3=B3n_-_O?= =?utf-8?q?mara_portuondo_y_Mart=C3=ADn_Rojas=22?= In-Reply-To: References: <58ECF3D2-737A-4255-B7A0-081D480DE962@gmail.com> <69465277-AF59-426A-BDAD-52D0DB4871E4@gmail.com> Message-ID: [image: image.png] ?A riot is the language of the unheard? by David F. Ruccio More than 50 years ago (on 14 April 1967), Martin Luther King Jr. delivered one of his famous speeches, on "The Other America," at Stanford University.* King patiently explained to the audience of students and faculty members that, while in his view "riots are socially destructive and self-defeating," they are "in the final analysis. . .the language of the unheard." Today, as protestors take to the streets across America, in response to the recent murders of George Floyd , Ahmaud Arbery , and Breonna Taylor , King's words speak louder than ever. America, he warned, "has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met" and that "large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity." The question is, what if anything has changed over the past half century? On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 8:09 AM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Anthony, > I finally got a chance to read the article. I t confirms my sense that the > breaking windows on Central for about 6 blocks in Albuquerque does Black > people no good and strengthens Trump, > > But I have concerns about the article as a description of what happened > here. I wonder just what percentage of the young white people that did it > are from really affluent families? The article implies that that it?s all > of them. I don?t think so. Maybe it?s because this is New Mexico and we are > typically at the bottom of every ranking on income, education and child > welfare. Nor do I think that most of them have great prospects financially. > Also, many could be young people of color since there are not many Black > people in New Mexico, but a lot of Hispanics and Native Americans. Behind a > mask, how would you know who?s white and who not? Now a countervailing > narrative is that 1) right wingers from outside are the violent ones and 2) > bricks are being made available in large amounts by outsiders, right wing, > instigators. The violence (to property) happened after peaceful protests in > Albuquerque . And one more thing about the scale of the property damage. > Here it was minor?so far. Stores will be back in business pretty soon, with > particle board in place, as if preparing for a hurricane. Windows aren?t > cheap, but insurance will take care of that. Finally, the violence has been > to property and no one has been injured on either side as far as I know. > > Henry > > > > > > > On Jun 2, 2020, at 3:45 PM, Anthony Barra wrote: > > Hello again, Henry. > > Your "Kimo" post is interesting in a number of ways, thanks. > > Shortly after reading it, I stumbled across this sociohistorical piece via > Twitter -- and it reads as if it originated in a more right-leaning xmca > type community: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/hub-city-riot-ninjas__;!!Mih3wA!TJEloCPS7Y1yF6vdXth_nMq1HVPLHCGkooWjK6YZsQeNENZGkCtdUYj5AhOBYaN6t3Gi1w$ > (*By > the way, does anybody know if such a listserv exists? I.e., a more > right-tilted "forum for a community of interdisciplinary scholars who > share an interest in the study of human mind in its cultural and historical > contexts"? That would be really interesting to check out, though I get the > sense that XMCA is truly a one-of-kind, global locale. > > Nonetheless Henry, a number of passages, regardless of their accuracy, > efficacy, or purity, brought your "Kimo" post to mind, including this one: > "While the initial occasion of a protest may be the death of a member of a > minority group in police custody, affluent young white leftists are more > interested in symbolic violence against capitalism or patriarchy or > whatever. > These children of the economic elite end up harming those on whose behalf > they pretend to be speaking." > > Thanks again for the cool poem. > > Anthony > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 3:56 PM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Mi Gente, >> I was watching a terribly down, but beautiful, movie that was just >> released on Netflix, Ya No Estoy, about Ul?ses, a 17 year-old living in a >> gang-dominated barrio in Monterrey, a totally cool kid, devoted to hip hop >> in the streets to the music of the Cumbia. He has to escape to NYC to keep >> from being killed. Ulises finds more violence and less understanding there >> and returns to Monterrey to his certain death. As I am watching the film, I >> hear in the next room my wife crying out in distress. I ask her why and she >> tells me that the Kimo, a beautiful art deco performance space in downtown >> Albuquerque (I live in the North Valley), has been burned: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KiMo_Theater__;!!Mih3wA!TJEloCPS7Y1yF6vdXth_nMq1HVPLHCGkooWjK6YZsQeNENZGkCtdUYj5AhOBYaMQcETUuQ$ >> >> Then I see one of the most uplifting movies I have ever seen called >> Quincy, about Quincy Jones, who produced music with Frank Sinatra to >> Michael Jackson, as well as the We Are The World concert. >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quincy_Jones__;!!Mih3wA!TJEloCPS7Y1yF6vdXth_nMq1HVPLHCGkooWjK6YZsQeNENZGkCtdUYj5AhOBYaOu26eMzg$ >> >> This morning I bicycled south to see the damage to the Kimo. I was >> relieved to see that the damage was only broken windows. But I was >> saddened, disappointed and alarmed that such things are done in reaction to >> the death of George Floyd. To deface or destroy something beautiful in the >> name of justice makes no sense to me. And it plays into Trump?s hands. But >> to embellish the story from broken windows to a fire that might even have >> threatened the structural integrity of the Kimo, that is what an echo >> chamber does. >> We have to do better, folks. Maybe we should be dancing in the streets >> and joyfully, if tearfully, to honor Mr. George?s death. Quincy knew what >> he was doing. So did Ul?ses. >> Henry >> P.S. So did Bill Withers:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkaexjc-1os__;!!Mih3wA!TJEloCPS7Y1yF6vdXth_nMq1HVPLHCGkooWjK6YZsQeNENZGkCtdUYj5AhOBYaMY2Nb6AA$ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jun 2, 2020, at 12:08 AM, Bill Kerr wrote: >> >> I ran the lyrics past a Spanish speaking friend and this is what she came >> up with: >> >> Firstly, I love Silvio Rodriquez, but he is incredibly difficult to >> translate as his songs are definitely poetry too. Also, my Spanish is >> pretty rusty. >> >> I read a few different people?s discussion of the song?s meaning, written >> in Spanish. I couldn?t really find any translation that made sense. They >> are all too literal. >> >> This is what I have come up with. >> >> The song poses the question of how we can live and enjoy our lives when >> there is so much suffering in the world. The answer is in solidarity. >> >> La era est? pariendo un coraz?n >> No puede m?s, se muere de dolor >> Y hay que acudir corriendo >> Pues se cae el porvenir >> En cualquier selva del mundo >> En cualquier call >> >> This era is growing a heart (as in a collective heart/spirit) >> The burden is too much, it will die of pain. >> We need to hurry to help >> Because the future is breaking in every part of the world >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 5:04 AM HENRY SHONERD wrote: >> >>> Ulvi, >>> I know this version. I am pretty sure I first heard a different version >>> long ago. >>> I realize that I mistranslated the ?La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n?. >>> It should be ?An era is giving birth to a heart? But then, ?No puede >>> m?s, se muere de dolor?, must mean that the era itself is experiencing the >>> pain as it gives birth to the heart. >>> Henry >>> >>> >>> On Apr 25, 2020, at 1:19 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/qTJzYtd1l7M__;!!Mih3wA!TJEloCPS7Y1yF6vdXth_nMq1HVPLHCGkooWjK6YZsQeNENZGkCtdUYj5AhOBYaOLuGxVNQ$ >>> >>> >>> >>> I think best interpretation of this song. >>> >>> Ulvi >>> >>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200603/e17176ec/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 1880 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200603/e17176ec/attachment.png From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Jun 3 05:28:41 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 06:28:41 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?=2215_La_era_est=C3=A1_pariendo_un_coraz=C3=B3n_-_O?= =?utf-8?q?mara_portuondo_y_Mart=C3=ADn_Rojas=22?= In-Reply-To: References: <58ECF3D2-737A-4255-B7A0-081D480DE962@gmail.com> <69465277-AF59-426A-BDAD-52D0DB4871E4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <23A2B703-6CB0-4139-98F1-5D0ABCA50FA4@gmail.com> Haydi, Thank you for the MLKJr reference. In the article that Anthony sent me the protestors are construed as young, white, sons and daughters of affluent parents engaged in improv theater. It?s theater on a world stage. Or maybe on stages throughout the world, playing to a world audience. I think the author of the article has made too much of the privileged position of the protestors. But it is symbolic and cathartic. This certainly resonates with Vygotsky?s interest in theater. Stanislavsky would be a touchstone for the perizhvanie being played out now. Others on the list might have other dramatic theorists in mind. Henry > On Jun 3, 2020, at 12:43 AM, Haydi Zulfei wrote: > > > > ?A riot is the language of the?unheard? by David F. Ruccio > > > More than 50 years ago (on 14 April 1967), Martin Luther King Jr. delivered one of his famous speeches, on "The Other America," at Stanford University.* King patiently explained to the audience of students and faculty members that, while in his view "riots are socially destructive and self-defeating," they are "in the final analysis. . .the language of the unheard." > > Today, as protestors take to the streets across America, in response to the recent murders of George Floyd , Ahmaud Arbery , and Breonna Taylor , King's words speak louder than ever. America, he warned, "has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met" and that "large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity." > > The question is, what if anything has changed over the past half century? > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 8:09 AM HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > Anthony, > I finally got a chance to read the article. I t confirms my sense that the breaking windows on Central for about 6 blocks in Albuquerque does Black people no good and strengthens Trump, > > But I have concerns about the article as a description of what happened here. I wonder just what percentage of the young white people that did it are from really affluent families? The article implies that that it?s all of them. I don?t think so. Maybe it?s because this is New Mexico and we are typically at the bottom of every ranking on income, education and child welfare. Nor do I think that most of them have great prospects financially. Also, many could be young people of color since there are not many Black people in New Mexico, but a lot of Hispanics and Native Americans. Behind a mask, how would you know who?s white and who not? Now a countervailing narrative is that 1) right wingers from outside are the violent ones and 2) bricks are being made available in large amounts by outsiders, right wing, instigators. The violence (to property) happened after peaceful protests in Albuquerque . And one more thing about the scale of the property damage. Here it was minor?so far. Stores will be back in business pretty soon, with particle board in place, as if preparing for a hurricane. Windows aren?t cheap, but insurance will take care of that. Finally, the violence has been to property and no one has been injured on either side as far as I know. > > Henry > > > > > > >> On Jun 2, 2020, at 3:45 PM, Anthony Barra > wrote: >> >> Hello again, Henry. >> >> Your "Kimo" post is interesting in a number of ways, thanks. >> >> Shortly after reading it, I stumbled across this sociohistorical piece via Twitter -- and it reads as if it originated in a more right-leaning xmca type community: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/hub-city-riot-ninjas__;!!Mih3wA!S8JwfVd638kMAQ_vR5Y5J252ZQIL8B4tTTgUSbGmkTwk3Ed2i5MixCGaP66hrJETm9XvXQ$ (*By the way, does anybody know if such a listserv exists? I.e., a more right-tilted "forum for a community of interdisciplinary scholars who share an interest in the study of human mind in its cultural and historical contexts"? That would be really interesting to check out, though I get the sense that XMCA is truly a one-of-kind, global locale. >> >> Nonetheless Henry, a number of passages, regardless of their accuracy, efficacy, or purity, brought your "Kimo" post to mind, including this one: >> "While the initial occasion of a protest may be the death of a member of a minority group in police custody, affluent young white leftists are more interested in symbolic violence against capitalism or patriarchy or whatever. >> These children of the economic elite end up harming those on whose behalf they pretend to be speaking." >> >> Thanks again for the cool poem. >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 3:56 PM HENRY SHONERD > wrote: >> Mi Gente, >> I was watching a terribly down, but beautiful, movie that was just released on Netflix, Ya No Estoy, about Ul?ses, a 17 year-old living in a gang-dominated barrio in Monterrey, a totally cool kid, devoted to hip hop in the streets to the music of the Cumbia. He has to escape to NYC to keep from being killed. Ulises finds more violence and less understanding there and returns to Monterrey to his certain death. As I am watching the film, I hear in the next room my wife crying out in distress. I ask her why and she tells me that the Kimo, a beautiful art deco performance space in downtown Albuquerque (I live in the North Valley), has been burned: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KiMo_Theater__;!!Mih3wA!S8JwfVd638kMAQ_vR5Y5J252ZQIL8B4tTTgUSbGmkTwk3Ed2i5MixCGaP66hrJGf_XCX1Q$ >> Then I see one of the most uplifting movies I have ever seen called Quincy, about Quincy Jones, who produced music with Frank Sinatra to Michael Jackson, as well as the We Are The World concert. >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quincy_Jones__;!!Mih3wA!S8JwfVd638kMAQ_vR5Y5J252ZQIL8B4tTTgUSbGmkTwk3Ed2i5MixCGaP66hrJFiH5I-JQ$ >> This morning I bicycled south to see the damage to the Kimo. I was relieved to see that the damage was only broken windows. But I was saddened, disappointed and alarmed that such things are done in reaction to the death of George Floyd. To deface or destroy something beautiful in the name of justice makes no sense to me. And it plays into Trump?s hands. But to embellish the story from broken windows to a fire that might even have threatened the structural integrity of the Kimo, that is what an echo chamber does. >> We have to do better, folks. Maybe we should be dancing in the streets and joyfully, if tearfully, to honor Mr. George?s death. Quincy knew what he was doing. So did Ul?ses. >> Henry >> P.S. So did Bill Withers:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkaexjc-1os__;!!Mih3wA!S8JwfVd638kMAQ_vR5Y5J252ZQIL8B4tTTgUSbGmkTwk3Ed2i5MixCGaP66hrJEsg5XK0w$ >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jun 2, 2020, at 12:08 AM, Bill Kerr > wrote: >>> >>> I ran the lyrics past a Spanish speaking friend and this is what she came up with: >>> >>> Firstly, I love Silvio Rodriquez, but he is incredibly difficult to translate as his songs are definitely poetry too. Also, my Spanish is pretty rusty. >>> >>> I read a few different people?s discussion of the song?s meaning, written in Spanish. I couldn?t really find any translation that made sense. They are all too literal. >>> >>> This is what I have come up with. >>> >>> The song poses the question of how we can live and enjoy our lives when there is so much suffering in the world. The answer is in solidarity. >>> >>> La era est? pariendo un coraz?n >>> No puede m?s, se muere de dolor >>> Y hay que acudir corriendo >>> Pues se cae el porvenir >>> En cualquier selva del mundo >>> En cualquier call >>> >>> This era is growing a heart (as in a collective heart/spirit) >>> The burden is too much, it will die of pain. >>> We need to hurry to help >>> Because the future is breaking in every part of the world >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 5:04 AM HENRY SHONERD > wrote: >>> Ulvi, >>> I know this version. I am pretty sure I first heard a different version long ago. >>> I realize that I mistranslated the ?La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n?. >>> It should be ?An era is giving birth to a heart? But then, ?No puede m?s, se muere de dolor?, must mean that the era itself is experiencing the pain as it gives birth to the heart. >>> Henry >>> >>> >>>> On Apr 25, 2020, at 1:19 PM, Ulvi ??il > wrote: >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/qTJzYtd1l7M__;!!Mih3wA!S8JwfVd638kMAQ_vR5Y5J252ZQIL8B4tTTgUSbGmkTwk3Ed2i5MixCGaP66hrJH9mqANXA$ >>>> >>>> I think best interpretation of this song. >>>> >>>> Ulvi >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200603/2b64f591/attachment.html From yrjo.engestrom@helsinki.fi Wed Jun 3 05:44:19 2020 From: yrjo.engestrom@helsinki.fi (=?utf-8?B?RW5nZXN0csO2bSwgWXJqw7YgSCBN?=) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 12:44:19 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Interesting activity-theoretical PhD defence online Message-ID: <89825185-FDD7-4514-9460-E50D25420C54@ad.helsinki.fi> Dear Colleagues, I am happy to announce the public defence of M. H. Sci. Jaana Nummijoki?s PhD thesis in adult education: "Breaking New Ground in Home Care Encounters. Shared Transformative Agency between Home Care Workers and their Elderly Clients?. The Opponent of the dissertation is Professor Alan Bleakley (University of Plymouth). Professor Emeritus Yrj? Engestr?m (University of Helsinki) and Professor Annalisa Sannino (University of Tampere) have supervised the thesis. Professor Sami Paavola (University of Helsinki) will serve as the Chair of the defence. The defence takes place on Friday, 12th June 2020 at 12 o?clock. The examination can be followed through a Zoom link: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://helsinki.zoom.us/j/64852513592?pwd=RmNvY24yUCtnWFJmS2FESkdXYk9jZz09__;!!Mih3wA!Ul8D6BJD0BbQspucmnEEsZakw_0Ge8_RBPwDWYzp9eqb_SFBDg8VtWmSsc4TaHeCWfzmdA$ Or using: Meeting ID: 64 852 513 592, Passwd: 645693 The dissertation is published in Helsinki Studies in Education series and can be downloaded from: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://urn.fi/URN:ISBN:978-951-51-6108-6__;!!Mih3wA!Ul8D6BJD0BbQspucmnEEsZakw_0Ge8_RBPwDWYzp9eqb_SFBDg8VtWmSsc4TaHd20vnc6Q$ With best regards, Yrj? Engestr?m -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200603/4cf11399/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Jun 3 09:15:20 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 17:15:20 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?=2215_La_era_est=C3=A1_pariendo_un_coraz=C3=B3n_-_O?= =?utf-8?q?mara_portuondo_y_Mart=C3=ADn_Rojas=22?= In-Reply-To: <23A2B703-6CB0-4139-98F1-5D0ABCA50FA4@gmail.com> References: <58ECF3D2-737A-4255-B7A0-081D480DE962@gmail.com> <69465277-AF59-426A-BDAD-52D0DB4871E4@gmail.com> <23A2B703-6CB0-4139-98F1-5D0ABCA50FA4@gmail.com> Message-ID: If you're arguments here are about the misapplication of idealist support, then this interview with Thomas Sowell may be of interest. Some of his arguments are akin to those of Ivan Illich. Best, Huw On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 at 13:31, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Haydi, > Thank you for the MLKJr reference. In the article that Anthony sent me the > protestors are construed as young, white, sons and daughters of affluent > parents engaged in improv theater. It?s theater on a world stage. Or maybe > on stages throughout the world, playing to a world audience. I think the > author of the article has made too much of the privileged position of the > protestors. But it is symbolic and cathartic. This certainly resonates with > Vygotsky?s interest in theater. Stanislavsky would be a touchstone for the > perizhvanie being played out now. Others on the list might have other > dramatic theorists in mind. > Henry > > On Jun 3, 2020, at 12:43 AM, Haydi Zulfei wrote: > > > > ?A > riot is the language of the unheard? > > by David F. Ruccio > > > > > > > More than 50 years ago (on 14 April 1967), Martin Luther King Jr. > delivered one of his famous speeches, on "The Other America," at Stanford > University.* King patiently explained to the audience of students and > faculty members that, while in his view "riots are socially destructive and > self-defeating," they are "in the final analysis. . .the language of the > unheard." > > Today, as protestors take to the streets across America, in response to > the recent murders of George Floyd > > , Ahmaud Arbery > > , and Breonna Taylor > , > King's words speak louder than ever. America, he warned, "has failed to > hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met" and that > "large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and > the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity." > > The question is, what if anything has changed over the past half century? > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 8:09 AM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Anthony, >> I finally got a chance to read the article. I t confirms my sense that >> the breaking windows on Central for about 6 blocks in Albuquerque does >> Black people no good and strengthens Trump, >> >> But I have concerns about the article as a description of what happened >> here. I wonder just what percentage of the young white people that did it >> are from really affluent families? The article implies that that it?s all >> of them. I don?t think so. Maybe it?s because this is New Mexico and we are >> typically at the bottom of every ranking on income, education and child >> welfare. Nor do I think that most of them have great prospects financially. >> Also, many could be young people of color since there are not many Black >> people in New Mexico, but a lot of Hispanics and Native Americans. Behind a >> mask, how would you know who?s white and who not? Now a countervailing >> narrative is that 1) right wingers from outside are the violent ones and 2) >> bricks are being made available in large amounts by outsiders, right wing, >> instigators. The violence (to property) happened after peaceful protests in >> Albuquerque . And one more thing about the scale of the property damage. >> Here it was minor?so far. Stores will be back in business pretty soon, with >> particle board in place, as if preparing for a hurricane. Windows aren?t >> cheap, but insurance will take care of that. Finally, the violence has been >> to property and no one has been injured on either side as far as I know. >> >> Henry >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jun 2, 2020, at 3:45 PM, Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >> Hello again, Henry. >> >> Your "Kimo" post is interesting in a number of ways, thanks. >> >> Shortly after reading it, I stumbled across this sociohistorical piece >> via Twitter -- and it reads as if it originated in a more right-leaning >> xmca type community: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/hub-city-riot-ninjas__;!!Mih3wA!TG022OhDiAP5yS9MaQ5eimAexO3rAfEhwM0s1PF9-zTCwSyMVephlTG_siH1erLQOeVWTQ$ >> (*By >> the way, does anybody know if such a listserv exists? I.e., a more >> right-tilted "forum for a community of interdisciplinary scholars who >> share an interest in the study of human mind in its cultural and historical >> contexts"? That would be really interesting to check out, though I get the >> sense that XMCA is truly a one-of-kind, global locale. >> >> Nonetheless Henry, a number of passages, regardless of their accuracy, >> efficacy, or purity, brought your "Kimo" post to mind, including this one: >> "While the initial occasion of a protest may be the death of a member of >> a minority group in police custody, affluent young white leftists are more >> interested in symbolic violence against capitalism or patriarchy or >> whatever. >> These children of the economic elite end up harming those on whose behalf >> they pretend to be speaking." >> >> Thanks again for the cool poem. >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 3:56 PM HENRY SHONERD wrote: >> >>> Mi Gente, >>> I was watching a terribly down, but beautiful, movie that was just >>> released on Netflix, Ya No Estoy, about Ul?ses, a 17 year-old living in a >>> gang-dominated barrio in Monterrey, a totally cool kid, devoted to hip hop >>> in the streets to the music of the Cumbia. He has to escape to NYC to keep >>> from being killed. Ulises finds more violence and less understanding there >>> and returns to Monterrey to his certain death. As I am watching the film, I >>> hear in the next room my wife crying out in distress. I ask her why and she >>> tells me that the Kimo, a beautiful art deco performance space in downtown >>> Albuquerque (I live in the North Valley), has been burned: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KiMo_Theater__;!!Mih3wA!TG022OhDiAP5yS9MaQ5eimAexO3rAfEhwM0s1PF9-zTCwSyMVephlTG_siH1erL2xexYIA$ >>> >>> Then I see one of the most uplifting movies I have ever seen called >>> Quincy, about Quincy Jones, who produced music with Frank Sinatra to >>> Michael Jackson, as well as the We Are The World concert. >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quincy_Jones__;!!Mih3wA!TG022OhDiAP5yS9MaQ5eimAexO3rAfEhwM0s1PF9-zTCwSyMVephlTG_siH1erJjwCrUqw$ >>> >>> This morning I bicycled south to see the damage to the Kimo. I was >>> relieved to see that the damage was only broken windows. But I was >>> saddened, disappointed and alarmed that such things are done in reaction to >>> the death of George Floyd. To deface or destroy something beautiful in the >>> name of justice makes no sense to me. And it plays into Trump?s hands. But >>> to embellish the story from broken windows to a fire that might even have >>> threatened the structural integrity of the Kimo, that is what an echo >>> chamber does. >>> We have to do better, folks. Maybe we should be dancing in the streets >>> and joyfully, if tearfully, to honor Mr. George?s death. Quincy knew what >>> he was doing. So did Ul?ses. >>> Henry >>> P.S. So did Bill Withers:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkaexjc-1os__;!!Mih3wA!TG022OhDiAP5yS9MaQ5eimAexO3rAfEhwM0s1PF9-zTCwSyMVephlTG_siH1erKR_TnldA$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 2, 2020, at 12:08 AM, Bill Kerr wrote: >>> >>> I ran the lyrics past a Spanish speaking friend and this is what she >>> came up with: >>> >>> Firstly, I love Silvio Rodriquez, but he is incredibly difficult to >>> translate as his songs are definitely poetry too. Also, my Spanish is >>> pretty rusty. >>> >>> I read a few different people?s discussion of the song?s meaning, >>> written in Spanish. I couldn?t really find any translation that made sense. >>> They are all too literal. >>> >>> This is what I have come up with. >>> >>> The song poses the question of how we can live and enjoy our lives when >>> there is so much suffering in the world. The answer is in solidarity. >>> >>> La era est? pariendo un coraz?n >>> No puede m?s, se muere de dolor >>> Y hay que acudir corriendo >>> Pues se cae el porvenir >>> En cualquier selva del mundo >>> En cualquier call >>> >>> This era is growing a heart (as in a collective heart/spirit) >>> The burden is too much, it will die of pain. >>> We need to hurry to help >>> Because the future is breaking in every part of the world >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 5:04 AM HENRY SHONERD >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Ulvi, >>>> I know this version. I am pretty sure I first heard a different version >>>> long ago. >>>> I realize that I mistranslated the ?La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n?. >>>> It should be ?An era is giving birth to a heart? But then, ?No puede >>>> m?s, se muere de dolor?, must mean that the era itself is experiencing the >>>> pain as it gives birth to the heart. >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 25, 2020, at 1:19 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/qTJzYtd1l7M__;!!Mih3wA!TG022OhDiAP5yS9MaQ5eimAexO3rAfEhwM0s1PF9-zTCwSyMVephlTG_siH1erIvITPD5w$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I think best interpretation of this song. >>>> >>>> Ulvi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200603/b61a205b/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Jun 3 09:16:22 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 17:16:22 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?=2215_La_era_est=C3=A1_pariendo_un_coraz=C3=B3n_-_O?= =?utf-8?q?mara_portuondo_y_Mart=C3=ADn_Rojas=22?= In-Reply-To: References: <58ECF3D2-737A-4255-B7A0-081D480DE962@gmail.com> <69465277-AF59-426A-BDAD-52D0DB4871E4@gmail.com> <23A2B703-6CB0-4139-98F1-5D0ABCA50FA4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Here it is: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS5WYp5xmvI__;!!Mih3wA!X483Krm8h3PCtrcAFm8oJkwpNRSmdjdbO8jlonrRbWDciHO62kRFSH8zqjTm19dl7kCzkw$ On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 at 17:15, Huw Lloyd wrote: > If you're arguments here are about the misapplication of idealist support, > then this interview with Thomas Sowell may be of interest. Some of his > arguments are akin to those of Ivan Illich. > Best, > Huw > > On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 at 13:31, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Haydi, >> Thank you for the MLKJr reference. In the article that Anthony sent me >> the protestors are construed as young, white, sons and daughters of >> affluent parents engaged in improv theater. It?s theater on a world stage. >> Or maybe on stages throughout the world, playing to a world audience. I >> think the author of the article has made too much of the privileged >> position of the protestors. But it is symbolic and cathartic. This >> certainly resonates with Vygotsky?s interest in theater. Stanislavsky would >> be a touchstone for the perizhvanie being played out now. Others on the >> list might have other dramatic theorists in mind. >> Henry >> >> On Jun 3, 2020, at 12:43 AM, Haydi Zulfei wrote: >> >> >> >> ?A >> riot is the language of the unheard? >> >> by David F. Ruccio >> >> >> >> >> >> >> More than 50 years ago (on 14 April 1967), Martin Luther King Jr. >> delivered one of his famous speeches, on "The Other America," at Stanford >> University.* King patiently explained to the audience of students and >> faculty members that, while in his view "riots are socially destructive and >> self-defeating," they are "in the final analysis. . .the language of the >> unheard." >> >> Today, as protestors take to the streets across America, in response to >> the recent murders of George Floyd >> >> , Ahmaud Arbery >> >> , and Breonna Taylor >> , >> King's words speak louder than ever. America, he warned, "has failed to >> hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met" and that >> "large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and >> the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity." >> >> The question is, what if anything has changed over the past half century? >> >> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 8:09 AM HENRY SHONERD wrote: >> >>> Anthony, >>> I finally got a chance to read the article. I t confirms my sense that >>> the breaking windows on Central for about 6 blocks in Albuquerque does >>> Black people no good and strengthens Trump, >>> >>> But I have concerns about the article as a description of what happened >>> here. I wonder just what percentage of the young white people that did it >>> are from really affluent families? The article implies that that it?s all >>> of them. I don?t think so. Maybe it?s because this is New Mexico and we are >>> typically at the bottom of every ranking on income, education and child >>> welfare. Nor do I think that most of them have great prospects financially. >>> Also, many could be young people of color since there are not many Black >>> people in New Mexico, but a lot of Hispanics and Native Americans. Behind a >>> mask, how would you know who?s white and who not? Now a countervailing >>> narrative is that 1) right wingers from outside are the violent ones and 2) >>> bricks are being made available in large amounts by outsiders, right wing, >>> instigators. The violence (to property) happened after peaceful protests in >>> Albuquerque . And one more thing about the scale of the property damage. >>> Here it was minor?so far. Stores will be back in business pretty soon, with >>> particle board in place, as if preparing for a hurricane. Windows aren?t >>> cheap, but insurance will take care of that. Finally, the violence has been >>> to property and no one has been injured on either side as far as I know. >>> >>> Henry >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 2, 2020, at 3:45 PM, Anthony Barra >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hello again, Henry. >>> >>> Your "Kimo" post is interesting in a number of ways, thanks. >>> >>> Shortly after reading it, I stumbled across this sociohistorical piece >>> via Twitter -- and it reads as if it originated in a more right-leaning >>> xmca type community: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/hub-city-riot-ninjas__;!!Mih3wA!X483Krm8h3PCtrcAFm8oJkwpNRSmdjdbO8jlonrRbWDciHO62kRFSH8zqjTm19dtzS7_NA$ >>> (*By >>> the way, does anybody know if such a listserv exists? I.e., a more >>> right-tilted "forum for a community of interdisciplinary scholars who >>> share an interest in the study of human mind in its cultural and historical >>> contexts"? That would be really interesting to check out, though I get the >>> sense that XMCA is truly a one-of-kind, global locale. >>> >>> Nonetheless Henry, a number of passages, regardless of their accuracy, >>> efficacy, or purity, brought your "Kimo" post to mind, including this one: >>> "While the initial occasion of a protest may be the death of a member of >>> a minority group in police custody, affluent young white leftists are more >>> interested in symbolic violence against capitalism or patriarchy or >>> whatever. >>> These children of the economic elite end up harming those on whose >>> behalf they pretend to be speaking." >>> >>> Thanks again for the cool poem. >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 3:56 PM HENRY SHONERD wrote: >>> >>>> Mi Gente, >>>> I was watching a terribly down, but beautiful, movie that was just >>>> released on Netflix, Ya No Estoy, about Ul?ses, a 17 year-old living in a >>>> gang-dominated barrio in Monterrey, a totally cool kid, devoted to hip hop >>>> in the streets to the music of the Cumbia. He has to escape to NYC to keep >>>> from being killed. Ulises finds more violence and less understanding there >>>> and returns to Monterrey to his certain death. As I am watching the film, I >>>> hear in the next room my wife crying out in distress. I ask her why and she >>>> tells me that the Kimo, a beautiful art deco performance space in downtown >>>> Albuquerque (I live in the North Valley), has been burned: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KiMo_Theater__;!!Mih3wA!X483Krm8h3PCtrcAFm8oJkwpNRSmdjdbO8jlonrRbWDciHO62kRFSH8zqjTm19fJHTMl6w$ >>>> >>>> Then I see one of the most uplifting movies I have ever seen called >>>> Quincy, about Quincy Jones, who produced music with Frank Sinatra to >>>> Michael Jackson, as well as the We Are The World concert. >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quincy_Jones__;!!Mih3wA!X483Krm8h3PCtrcAFm8oJkwpNRSmdjdbO8jlonrRbWDciHO62kRFSH8zqjTm19fY5ICHjQ$ >>>> >>>> This morning I bicycled south to see the damage to the Kimo. I was >>>> relieved to see that the damage was only broken windows. But I was >>>> saddened, disappointed and alarmed that such things are done in reaction to >>>> the death of George Floyd. To deface or destroy something beautiful in the >>>> name of justice makes no sense to me. And it plays into Trump?s hands. But >>>> to embellish the story from broken windows to a fire that might even have >>>> threatened the structural integrity of the Kimo, that is what an echo >>>> chamber does. >>>> We have to do better, folks. Maybe we should be dancing in the streets >>>> and joyfully, if tearfully, to honor Mr. George?s death. Quincy knew what >>>> he was doing. So did Ul?ses. >>>> Henry >>>> P.S. So did Bill Withers:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkaexjc-1os__;!!Mih3wA!X483Krm8h3PCtrcAFm8oJkwpNRSmdjdbO8jlonrRbWDciHO62kRFSH8zqjTm19csJG8AYA$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jun 2, 2020, at 12:08 AM, Bill Kerr wrote: >>>> >>>> I ran the lyrics past a Spanish speaking friend and this is what she >>>> came up with: >>>> >>>> Firstly, I love Silvio Rodriquez, but he is incredibly difficult to >>>> translate as his songs are definitely poetry too. Also, my Spanish is >>>> pretty rusty. >>>> >>>> I read a few different people?s discussion of the song?s meaning, >>>> written in Spanish. I couldn?t really find any translation that made sense. >>>> They are all too literal. >>>> >>>> This is what I have come up with. >>>> >>>> The song poses the question of how we can live and enjoy our lives when >>>> there is so much suffering in the world. The answer is in solidarity. >>>> >>>> La era est? pariendo un coraz?n >>>> No puede m?s, se muere de dolor >>>> Y hay que acudir corriendo >>>> Pues se cae el porvenir >>>> En cualquier selva del mundo >>>> En cualquier call >>>> >>>> This era is growing a heart (as in a collective heart/spirit) >>>> The burden is too much, it will die of pain. >>>> We need to hurry to help >>>> Because the future is breaking in every part of the world >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 5:04 AM HENRY SHONERD >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Ulvi, >>>>> I know this version. I am pretty sure I first heard a different >>>>> version long ago. >>>>> I realize that I mistranslated the ?La Era Est? Pariendo Un Coraz?n?. >>>>> It should be ?An era is giving birth to a heart? But then, ?No puede >>>>> m?s, se muere de dolor?, must mean that the era itself is experiencing the >>>>> pain as it gives birth to the heart. >>>>> Henry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 25, 2020, at 1:19 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: >>>>> >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/qTJzYtd1l7M__;!!Mih3wA!X483Krm8h3PCtrcAFm8oJkwpNRSmdjdbO8jlonrRbWDciHO62kRFSH8zqjTm19eDjNw2Yw$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think best interpretation of this song. >>>>> >>>>> Ulvi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200603/2d6e6bc6/attachment.html From kplakits@gmail.com Wed Jun 3 12:03:22 2020 From: kplakits@gmail.com (Katerina Plakitsi) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 22:03:22 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting activity-theoretical PhD defence online In-Reply-To: <89825185-FDD7-4514-9460-E50D25420C54@ad.helsinki.fi> References: <89825185-FDD7-4514-9460-E50D25420C54@ad.helsinki.fi> Message-ID: Thanks for sharing! Congratulations!!!!???? ???? ???, 3 ???? 2020 ???? 15:44 ? ??????? Engestr?m, Yrj? H M < yrjo.engestrom@helsinki.fi> ??????: > Dear Colleagues, > > I am happy to announce the public defence of M. H. Sci. Jaana Nummijoki?s > PhD thesis in adult education: "Breaking New Ground in Home Care > Encounters. Shared Transformative Agency between Home Care Workers and > their Elderly Clients?. > > The Opponent of the dissertation is Professor Alan Bleakley (University of > Plymouth). Professor Emeritus Yrj? Engestr?m (University of Helsinki) and > Professor Annalisa Sannino (University of Tampere) have supervised the > thesis. Professor Sami Paavola (University of Helsinki) will serve as the > Chair of the defence. > > The defence takes place on Friday, 12th June 2020 at 12 o?clock. The > examination can be followed through a Zoom link: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://helsinki.zoom.us/j/64852513592?pwd=RmNvY24yUCtnWFJmS2FESkdXYk9jZz09__;!!Mih3wA!SUo7jkv6SrL-YkB3Wnes1sSL1zUd8umJtd0I9ujcwEANbyTgV9rItPJQJOs9rmf-bL-Caw$ > > Or using: Meeting ID: 64 852 513 592, Passwd: 645693 > > The dissertation is published in Helsinki Studies in Education series > and can be downloaded from: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://urn.fi/URN:ISBN:978-951-51-6108-6__;!!Mih3wA!SUo7jkv6SrL-YkB3Wnes1sSL1zUd8umJtd0I9ujcwEANbyTgV9rItPJQJOs9rmfVDLr6aQ$ > > With best regards, > > Yrj? Engestr?m > -- ................................................................................................................................................................................................ Katerina Plakitsi Professor in Science Education President of the International Society of Sociocultural and Activity Research [ISCAR] Head of the Dept. of Early Childhood Education, School of Education, University of Ioannina, Greece *tel. +302651005771* *fax. +302651005842* *mobile.phone +306972898463* *Skype name: katerina.plakitsi3* https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.iscar.org/__;!!Mih3wA!SUo7jkv6SrL-YkB3Wnes1sSL1zUd8umJtd0I9ujcwEANbyTgV9rItPJQJOs9rmftBj5BLg$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://ecedu.uoi.gr/index.php/department/head*english__;Iw!!Mih3wA!SUo7jkv6SrL-YkB3Wnes1sSL1zUd8umJtd0I9ujcwEANbyTgV9rItPJQJOs9rmfLbRRK0w$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.epoque-project.eu__;!!Mih3wA!SUo7jkv6SrL-YkB3Wnes1sSL1zUd8umJtd0I9ujcwEANbyTgV9rItPJQJOs9rmemckigfA$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://bdfprojects.wixsite.com/mindset__;!!Mih3wA!SUo7jkv6SrL-YkB3Wnes1sSL1zUd8umJtd0I9ujcwEANbyTgV9rItPJQJOs9rmdgfou-8A$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.lib.uoi.gr/serp__;!!Mih3wA!SUo7jkv6SrL-YkB3Wnes1sSL1zUd8umJtd0I9ujcwEANbyTgV9rItPJQJOs9rmcOsD2l_w$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isZAbefnRmo&t=7s__;!!Mih3wA!SUo7jkv6SrL-YkB3Wnes1sSL1zUd8umJtd0I9ujcwEANbyTgV9rItPJQJOs9rmfkcw4MKA$ Other: Director of the Lab "Didactics of Maths and Science & Education for Sustainability" Coordinator @Formal and Informal Science Education [@FISE] researching group Board member of the Institute of Humanities and Social Sciences of the University of Ioannina Researching Center Board member of the National Center of Teachers Training Editor in Chief of the journal Science Education: Research and Praxis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200603/3f7f81cb/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Jun 3 15:00:54 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 07:00:54 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] My Hometown Minneapolis Message-ID: I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd Precinct (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive politics--but it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities in the USA. I went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a chain-link fence dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember the column of black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, because it was halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower Hill. Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) and financing fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops how to use hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas deployments of the US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, sported a "white power" badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal (but he also said pretty much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack Obama). There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, but there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Vm2igO0yAaLE3mAkgGfchEv-ca2Lr3AIuwlj_wiMAbd3Rf6_FH82-qjbaLRYQTUEzvRfuw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Vm2igO0yAaLE3mAkgGfchEv-ca2Lr3AIuwlj_wiMAbd3Rf6_FH82-qjbaLRYQTVxTHuUpw$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200604/7628a337/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Jun 3 16:28:19 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 16:28:19 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi David- Where have you NOT been! CulturalPraxis is a work in progress taken on by the MCA editorial board a few years ago. After a giant push by Alfredo, a sort of CP2.0 was announced on XMCA, but it is by no means intended as the mature facility. As I understand it, CP2.0 is intended as a complement to MCA, a medium for enriching our research and teaching by making room for, and encouraging, a diversity of voices. The website was re-started a couple of weeks ago to respond rapidly to the rapid events that were overtaking us BEFORE covid-19 appeared. It was designed to be modifiable in the clear recognition that its functions and conventions are to be worked out by users over time. So, people should feel welcome both to make suggestions by writing to culturalpraxis@ils.uio.no. As you will see the discussion on the home page is focused on the covid-19 + inequality + global warming. Last week racism "came out" as an incendiary ingredient in the combination of threats to our social institutions we are all witnessing. So the hurryup mode of the current iteration of CP reflects the hurry up mode in which events have rained down on us. Now the question is, who is going to do the work that comes with taking CP to the next level? If you have web design skills and are interested in volunteering to help, I am pretty sure that the editorial board of MCA will be very happy to hear from you! My idea, David, was for someone such as yourself to pull together the informative reports we collected from around the world of how covid was affecting xmca members. But that was a couple of weeks ago and the racial/class explosion of the last week has probably passed it by. Given how fast events are moving the new CP2.0 has gotten off to a great start. But how it will develop, and who will join in the process, is a work in progress. Hopefully it will develop in a manner that opens up the space of academic communication in a productive way. mike The peerssing the range of toicultural historical long confronted with the virus of racism, ------------------------------------------------ To be in touch with the Cultural Praxis editors, please write an e-mail to culturalpraxis@ils.uio.no On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 3:05 PM David Kellogg wrote: > I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd Precinct > (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely > proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). > > Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive politics--but > it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities in the USA. I > went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a chain-link fence > dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember the column of > black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, because it was > halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower Hill. > > Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a > paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the > Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black > people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) > and financing fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops > how to use hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas > deployments of the US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, > sported a "white power" badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal > (but he also said pretty much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack > Obama). > > There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union > launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical > Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed > the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group > of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized > the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the > population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in > mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder > if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. > > (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, but > there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QCenXQtk9Z-vPRUdLqYVuGPyBzPcb5L0SKcKY8UhbaAAF5qFVcBa57M7_8Mxd2hbWBrUTQ$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QCenXQtk9Z-vPRUdLqYVuGPyBzPcb5L0SKcKY8UhbaAAF5qFVcBa57M7_8Mxd2jcKk2k9Q$ > > > -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QCenXQtk9Z-vPRUdLqYVuGPyBzPcb5L0SKcKY8UhbaAAF5qFVcBa57M7_8Mxd2iiUtA-ww$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200603/13252ba5/attachment.html From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Wed Jun 3 16:35:54 2020 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 02:35:54 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Really I thought exactly the same !!! Incredible. 4 Haz 2020 Per 02:32 tarihinde mike cole ?unu yazd?: > Hi David- > > Where have you NOT been! > > CulturalPraxis is a work in progress taken on by the MCA editorial board a > few years ago. After a giant push by Alfredo, a sort of CP2.0 was > announced > on XMCA, but it is by no means intended as the mature facility. As I > understand it, CP2.0 is intended as a complement to MCA, a medium for > enriching our research and teaching by making room for, and encouraging, a > diversity of voices. > > The website was re-started a couple of weeks ago to respond rapidly to the > rapid events that were overtaking us BEFORE covid-19 appeared. > It was designed to be modifiable in the clear recognition that its > functions and conventions are to be worked out by users over time. So, > people should > feel welcome both to make suggestions by writing to > culturalpraxis@ils.uio.no. As you will see the discussion on the home > page is focused on the covid-19 + inequality + global warming. Last week > racism "came out" as an incendiary ingredient in the combination of threats > to our social institutions we are all witnessing. > > So the hurryup mode of the current iteration of CP reflects the hurry up > mode in which events have rained down on us. > Now the question is, who is going to do the work that comes with taking CP > to the next level? If you have web design skills and are interested in > volunteering to help, I am pretty sure that the editorial board of MCA will > be very happy to hear from you! > > My idea, David, was for someone such as yourself to pull together the > informative reports we collected from around the world of how covid was > affecting xmca members. But that was a couple of weeks ago and the > racial/class explosion of the last week has probably passed it by. Given > how fast events are moving the new CP2.0 has gotten off to a great start. > But how it will develop, and who will join in the process, is a work in > progress. Hopefully it will develop in a manner that opens up the space of > academic communication in a productive way. > > mike > > > > > The > > > > > > > > > > > peerssing the range of toicultural historical > long confronted with the virus of racism, > ------------------------------------------------ > To be in touch with the Cultural Praxis editors, please write an e-mail > to culturalpraxis@ils.uio.no > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 3:05 PM David Kellogg wrote: > >> I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd Precinct >> (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely >> proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). >> >> Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive >> politics--but it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities >> in the USA. I went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a >> chain-link fence dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember >> the column of black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, >> because it was halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower >> Hill. >> >> Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a >> paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the >> Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black >> people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) >> and financing fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops >> how to use hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas >> deployments of the US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, >> sported a "white power" badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal >> (but he also said pretty much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack >> Obama). >> >> There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union >> launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical >> Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed >> the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group >> of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized >> the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the >> population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in >> mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder >> if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. >> >> (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, but >> there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TVtWifRBTZkNY2wlvX_kd01iHBcg4Ng-_M18zusUR_0eEuxOX03QRL5wknpOolgRaRbX4A$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TVtWifRBTZkNY2wlvX_kd01iHBcg4Ng-_M18zusUR_0eEuxOX03QRL5wknpOoljyi8U5Ng$ >> >> >> > > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TVtWifRBTZkNY2wlvX_kd01iHBcg4Ng-_M18zusUR_0eEuxOX03QRL5wknpOolhCg6KGEw$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200604/27edebcd/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Wed Jun 3 16:46:32 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 19:46:32 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of the proportionate response too: In Minneapolis ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property damage and looted. ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed by fire. ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage. ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water damage. ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and looting. ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed. ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property damage. ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage. ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: Property damage and looting. ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire damage. ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire damage. ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and looting. ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and looting. ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and looting. ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage and looting. ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. ? Tibet Store: Property damage. ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, graffiti and some interior damage. ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage. ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, extensive fire damage. ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire damage. ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and 29th: Fire, destroyed. ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property damage, looting. ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle smashed through windows. ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti. ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle stolen. ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, looting. ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft of ATM. ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. Seward Community Co-op, Facebook ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting. ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. Spencer Wallman ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and looting. ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed report of looting, property damage. ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. ? Bondesque: Property damage. In St. Paul ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property damage and looting. ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. ? Turf Club: Property damage. ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and looting. ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, looting. ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. ? To New York Midway: Property damage. ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage. ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire. ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, graffiti. ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. ? The Fixery, Highland: Property damage. ? Bole Ethiopian Restaurant: Fire. ? Enterprise University Avenue: Fire. ? Goodwill: Property damage. In Twin Cities suburbs ? Target Maplewood: Property damage and looting. ? The Jewelers Saint Anthony: Property damage. ? GameStop Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting. ? Walmart Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting .? T-Mobile Store Brooklyn Center: Property damage. ? Family Dollar Brooklyn Center: Property damage. ? Walgreens 63rd and Brooklyn Blvd., Brooklyn Center: Property damage. ? Western Service Center, Apple Valley: Property, fire, and water damage. Or how about this? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DarrenJBeattie/status/1268003013425344514?s=19__;!!Mih3wA!Qb86ZOp2RXzb8qpxsdcJNYE59E7UlYGarvdrbNXN_eVjqNeQGARw2k_nobTBTvoE-ssPDw$ This sucks. Everyone in the country agreed on Day 1 -- prosecute the cops, mourn for the dead, seek a productive path forward. There was no one left to persuade! On at least this one thing, we were more united than any time in recent memory. 7 days later...half of that goodwill, natural fellowship, and brotherhood has been pissed away. The sale was already made, but the sellers kept selling and likely blew the deal. Sucks. Anthony On Wednesday, June 3, 2020, David Kellogg wrote: > I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd Precinct > (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely > proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). > > Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive politics--but > it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities in the USA. I > went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a chain-link fence > dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember the column of > black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, because it was > halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower Hill. > > Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a > paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the > Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black > people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) > and financing fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops > how to use hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas > deployments of the US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, > sported a "white power" badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal > (but he also said pretty much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack > Obama). > > There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union > launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical > Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed > the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group > of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized > the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the > population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in > mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder > if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. > > (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, but > there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Qb86ZOp2RXzb8qpxsdcJNYE59E7UlYGarvdrbNXN_eVjqNeQGARw2k_nobTBTvq_gKaRDg$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Qb86ZOp2RXzb8qpxsdcJNYE59E7UlYGarvdrbNXN_eVjqNeQGARw2k_nobTBTvpczbfuHQ$ > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200603/71c8f417/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Jun 3 17:39:43 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:39:43 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anthony: When I was a kid, there was a street fighting tactic called "sucker punching". You waltz up to your sucker, you point vaguely over his shoulder--suckers are invariably male--and you say something like "Wow! Look at that!" "Watch out!" or "Hey--what's over there?". Then as the sucker turns his head, ya let him have it. I would characterize ALL looting as a kind of "sucker punching", a kind of whataboutism"--a flash-bang distraction, a way of changing the subject. I don't just mean what Biden, Cuomo, and this morning President Obama meant--that is, that looting is what allows Mr. Trump to bluster and bellow and get everybody to forget the murders of black people. He's gonna do that anyway, because it's all he knows how to do. I mean that looting doesn't address the police who murdered and who murder with impunity, doesn't redress the doctrine of "Qualified Immunity" brought in by the Supreme Court to protect killer cops, and doesn't eliminate the paramilitary "Police Union" in Minneapolis which has SUCCESSFULLY defended the killers of Philando Castile and Jamar Clark. Now I assume you are not trying to sucker punch me--you know I'm no sucker. I assume that the long, informative list of looted venues you have supplied (many names I recognize from my slot-car racing, milk-shake sipping, mispent youth) is not trying to change the topic of this thread. I think it is a genuine--nay, a well-appreciated--attempt, to show me the scope of the problem. But I suspect you are not really aware that what you have actually done is to make, even more eloquently than I could have done, the case for a second Minneapolis general strike. A second Minneapolis General Strike would offer special protection to businesses run by community members the way that no National Guard or military repression can. In the First Minneapolis General strike, strike committees were community members. A second Minneapolis General Strike would prevent the spread of Covid 19 in a way that "reopening" small businesses has imperilled. (Today the Swedes admitted that the Swedish model was a mistake) A second Minneapolis General Strike would render the curfew irrelevant. Only essential neighborhood businesses, not milk shake parlors and slot car race tracks, would be allowed to stay open. A second Minneapolis General Strike would allow a democratically elected strike committee to clearly distinguish between proportionate responses on the one hand and whataboutism and sucker-punching small business on the other. (Why can't Minnesotans rely on the democratically elected Democratic-Farmer-Labor city and state adminstration to do that? I'm glad you asked. For the same reason that Derek Chauvin had to be arrested by the state authorities and not by the Hennepin County cop shop--there is already a state of dual power in Minnesota, but it is led by Bob Kroll and his lawless, orderless "law-and-order" "Police Federation". Can we stop using the term "law enforcement" now?) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Th7buQ6HWVNff3UOmUy2ACjyX-EmTwdN3dZnZncahDsbHeNI5SgBAYHZZ-xFD4z1PYP8og$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Th7buQ6HWVNff3UOmUy2ACjyX-EmTwdN3dZnZncahDsbHeNI5SgBAYHZZ-xFD4zrkK7a5g$ On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:49 AM Anthony Barra wrote: > David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly > characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of the > proportionate response too: > > In Minneapolis > ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. > > ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. > > ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property damage and > looted. > > ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. > > ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. > > ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. > > ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage. > > ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water damage. > > ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. > > ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and looting. > > ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. > > ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. > > ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. > > ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. > > ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door > smashed > > ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed. > > ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. > > ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property damage. > > ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage > > ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage > > ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage > > ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage > > ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting > > ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage > > ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting > > ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire > > ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage > > ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting > > ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. > > ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. > > ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. > > ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. > > ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. > > ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. > > ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: Property > damage and looting. > > ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. > > ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. > > ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. > > ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. > > ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. > > ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. > > ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. > > ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. > > ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. > > ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. > > ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. > > ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage > > ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. > > ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. > > ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire damage. > > ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire damage. > > ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and looting. > > ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and looting. > > ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. > > ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. > > ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. > > ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and looting. > > ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. > > ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. > > ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window > > ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. > > ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. > > ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. > > ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage and > looting. > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. > > ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Tibet Store: Property damage. > > ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. > > ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. > > ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. > > ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. > > ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. > > ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, graffiti and > some interior damage. > > ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. > > ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. > > ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. > > ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. > > ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. > > ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. > > ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. > > ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. > > ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage. > > ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. > > ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. > > ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. > > ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. > > ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. > > ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. > > ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. > > ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. > > ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire > > ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. > > ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, extensive fire > damage. > > ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire damage. > > ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. > > ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. > > ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. > > ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and 29th: > Fire, destroyed. > > ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. > > ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. > > ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. > > ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. > > ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. > > Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters > > ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. > > ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. > > ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property damage, > looting. > > ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle smashed > through windows. > > ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. > > ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. > > ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. > > ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti. > > ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle stolen. > > ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. > > ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, looting. > > ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. > > ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft of ATM. > > ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. > > Seward Community Co-op, Facebook > > ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. > > ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting. > > ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. > > ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. > > ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. > > ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. > > ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > Spencer Wallman > > ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. > > ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. > > ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. > > ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and looting. > > ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. > > ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. > > ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting > > ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. > > ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. > > ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. > > ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. > > ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. > > ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. > > ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed report of > looting, property damage. > > ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. > > ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. > > ? Bondesque: Property damage. > > In St. Paul > ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property damage > and looting. > > ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. > > ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. > > ? Turf Club: Property damage. > > ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. > > ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. > > ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. > > ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage > > ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and looting. > > ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. > > ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. > > ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. > > ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, looting. > > ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. > > ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. > > ? To New York Midway: Property damage. > > ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. > > ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. > > ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage. > > ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire. > > ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. > > ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage > > ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. > > ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. > > ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. > > ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, graffiti. > > ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. > > ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. > > ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. > > ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. > > ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. > > ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. > > ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. > > ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. > > ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. > > ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. > > ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. > > ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. > > ? The Fixery, Highland: Property damage. > > ? Bole Ethiopian Restaurant: Fire. > > ? Enterprise University Avenue: Fire. > > ? Goodwill: Property damage. > > In Twin Cities suburbs > ? Target Maplewood: Property damage and looting. > > ? The Jewelers Saint Anthony: Property damage. > > ? GameStop Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting. > > ? Walmart Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting > > .? T-Mobile Store Brooklyn Center: Property damage. > > ? Family Dollar Brooklyn Center: Property damage. > > ? Walgreens 63rd and Brooklyn Blvd., Brooklyn Center: Property damage. > > ? Western Service Center, Apple Valley: Property, fire, and water damage. > > Or how about this? > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DarrenJBeattie/status/1268003013425344514?s=19__;!!Mih3wA!Th7buQ6HWVNff3UOmUy2ACjyX-EmTwdN3dZnZncahDsbHeNI5SgBAYHZZ-xFD4waIUAWaQ$ > > > This sucks. > > Everyone in the country agreed on Day 1 -- prosecute the cops, mourn for > the dead, seek a productive path forward. There was no one left to > persuade! On at least this one thing, we were more united than any time in > recent memory. > > 7 days later...half of that goodwill, natural fellowship, and brotherhood > has been pissed away. > > The sale was already made, but the sellers kept selling and likely blew > the deal. > > Sucks. > > Anthony > > > > > On Wednesday, June 3, 2020, David Kellogg wrote: > >> I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd Precinct >> (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely >> proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). >> >> Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive >> politics--but it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities >> in the USA. I went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a >> chain-link fence dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember >> the column of black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, >> because it was halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower >> Hill. >> >> Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a >> paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the >> Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black >> people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) >> and financing fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops >> how to use hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas >> deployments of the US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, >> sported a "white power" badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal >> (but he also said pretty much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack >> Obama). >> >> There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union >> launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical >> Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed >> the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group >> of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized >> the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the >> population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in >> mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder >> if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. >> >> (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, but >> there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Th7buQ6HWVNff3UOmUy2ACjyX-EmTwdN3dZnZncahDsbHeNI5SgBAYHZZ-xFD4z1PYP8og$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Th7buQ6HWVNff3UOmUy2ACjyX-EmTwdN3dZnZncahDsbHeNI5SgBAYHZZ-xFD4zrkK7a5g$ >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200604/c92db728/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Jun 3 17:59:51 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 17:59:51 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You might lay out the program of a second strike for the people of Minneapolis, David. It would deflect from stereotypes about what the range of demands can be. Of course Anthony was not throwing a sucker punch. But some ones are throwing sucker punches by using the peaceful rallies as a pretext for violence. At the moment (or last time I looked) analysts watching video are trying to figure out who is coming to protests with duffle bags full of bats. And everyone is scared witless by the fear of what Trump is doing with almost no opposition from the Republican Senate. It just all stinks of 1937-1939 to me. I'm a very premature antifacist by birth. With Global Warming and Covid-19 thrown in. mike On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:45 PM David Kellogg wrote: > Anthony: > > When I was a kid, there was a street fighting tactic called "sucker > punching". You waltz up to your sucker, you point vaguely over his > shoulder--suckers are invariably male--and you say something like "Wow! > Look at that!" "Watch out!" or "Hey--what's over there?". Then as the > sucker turns his head, ya let him have it. > > I would characterize ALL looting as a kind of "sucker punching", a kind of > whataboutism"--a flash-bang distraction, a way of changing the subject. I > don't just mean what Biden, Cuomo, and this morning President Obama > meant--that is, that looting is what allows Mr. Trump to bluster and bellow > and get everybody to forget the murders of black people. He's gonna do that > anyway, because it's all he knows how to do. > > I mean that looting doesn't address the police who murdered and who murder > with impunity, doesn't redress the doctrine of "Qualified Immunity" brought > in by the Supreme Court to protect killer cops, and doesn't eliminate the > paramilitary "Police Union" in Minneapolis which has SUCCESSFULLY defended > the killers of Philando Castile and Jamar Clark. > > Now I assume you are not trying to sucker punch me--you know I'm no > sucker. I assume that the long, informative list of looted venues you have > supplied (many names I recognize from my slot-car racing, milk-shake > sipping, mispent youth) is not trying to change the topic of this thread. I > think it is a genuine--nay, a well-appreciated--attempt, to show me the > scope of the problem. > > But I suspect you are not really aware that what you have actually done is > to make, even more eloquently than I could have done, the case for a second > Minneapolis general strike. > A second Minneapolis General Strike would offer special protection to > businesses run by community members the way that no National Guard or > military repression can. In the First Minneapolis General strike, strike > committees were community members. > A second Minneapolis General Strike would prevent the spread of Covid 19 > in a way that "reopening" small businesses has imperilled. (Today the > Swedes admitted that the Swedish model was a mistake) > A second Minneapolis General Strike would render the curfew irrelevant. > Only essential neighborhood businesses, not milk shake parlors and slot car > race tracks, would be allowed to stay open. > A second Minneapolis General Strike would allow a democratically elected > strike committee to clearly distinguish between proportionate responses on > the one hand and whataboutism and sucker-punching small business on the > other. > > (Why can't Minnesotans rely on the democratically elected > Democratic-Farmer-Labor city and state adminstration to do that? I'm glad > you asked. For the same reason that Derek Chauvin had to be arrested by the > state authorities and not by the Hennepin County cop shop--there is already > a state of dual power in Minnesota, but it is led by Bob Kroll and > his lawless, orderless "law-and-order" "Police Federation". Can we stop > using the term "law enforcement" now?) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UV7sZERHtmSJJYzfYwVT2ycIGV6P2hIMpYnYyMwrC6Mo_c9DzGhmVVZp1wRDiUqf3FLK6g$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UV7sZERHtmSJJYzfYwVT2ycIGV6P2hIMpYnYyMwrC6Mo_c9DzGhmVVZp1wRDiUpOtVmUCg$ > > > > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:49 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly >> characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of the >> proportionate response too: >> >> In Minneapolis >> ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. >> >> ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property damage >> and looted. >> >> ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. >> >> ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. >> >> ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. >> >> ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage. >> >> ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water damage. >> >> ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. >> >> ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and looting. >> >> ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. >> >> ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. >> >> ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. >> >> ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. >> >> ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door >> smashed >> >> ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed. >> >> ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. >> >> ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property damage. >> >> ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage >> >> ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage >> >> ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage >> >> ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage >> >> ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting >> >> ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage >> >> ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting >> >> ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire >> >> ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage >> >> ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting >> >> ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. >> >> ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. >> >> ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. >> >> ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: Property >> damage and looting. >> >> ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. >> >> ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. >> >> ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. >> >> ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. >> >> ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. >> >> ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage >> >> ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. >> >> ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and looting. >> >> ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and looting. >> >> ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. >> >> ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. >> >> ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. >> >> ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. >> >> ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window >> >> ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. >> >> ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. >> >> ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. >> >> ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage and >> looting. >> >> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. >> >> ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Tibet Store: Property damage. >> >> ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. >> >> ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. >> >> ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. >> >> ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. >> >> ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, graffiti and >> some interior damage. >> >> ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. >> >> ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. >> >> ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. >> >> ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >> >> ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. >> >> ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. >> >> ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >> >> ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >> >> ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. >> >> ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. >> >> ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. >> >> ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. >> >> ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. >> >> ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. >> >> ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. >> >> ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire >> >> ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, extensive fire >> damage. >> >> ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire damage. >> >> ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. >> >> ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. >> >> ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. >> >> ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and 29th: >> Fire, destroyed. >> >> ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. >> >> ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. >> >> ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. >> >> ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. >> >> Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters >> >> ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. >> >> ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property damage, >> looting. >> >> ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle smashed >> through windows. >> >> ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. >> >> ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. >> >> ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. >> >> ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti. >> >> ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle stolen. >> >> ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. >> >> ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft of ATM. >> >> ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. >> >> Seward Community Co-op, Facebook >> >> ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. >> >> ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. >> >> ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. >> >> ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> Spencer Wallman >> >> ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. >> >> ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. >> >> ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. >> >> ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. >> >> ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. >> >> ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting >> >> ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. >> >> ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. >> >> ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. >> >> ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. >> >> ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. >> >> ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. >> >> ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed report of >> looting, property damage. >> >> ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. >> >> ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. >> >> ? Bondesque: Property damage. >> >> In St. Paul >> ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property damage >> and looting. >> >> ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. >> >> ? Turf Club: Property damage. >> >> ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. >> >> ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. >> >> ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage >> >> ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. >> >> ? To New York Midway: Property damage. >> >> ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. >> >> ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage. >> >> ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire. >> >> ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage >> >> ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. >> >> ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. >> >> ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, graffiti. >> >> ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. >> >> ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. >> >> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. >> >> ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. >> >> ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. >> >> ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. >> >> ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. >> >> ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. >> >> ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. >> >> ? The Fixery, Highland: Property damage. >> >> ? Bole Ethiopian Restaurant: Fire. >> >> ? Enterprise University Avenue: Fire. >> >> ? Goodwill: Property damage. >> >> In Twin Cities suburbs >> ? Target Maplewood: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? The Jewelers Saint Anthony: Property damage. >> >> ? GameStop Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Walmart Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting >> >> .? T-Mobile Store Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >> >> ? Family Dollar Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >> >> ? Walgreens 63rd and Brooklyn Blvd., Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >> >> ? Western Service Center, Apple Valley: Property, fire, and water damage. >> >> Or how about this? >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DarrenJBeattie/status/1268003013425344514?s=19__;!!Mih3wA!UV7sZERHtmSJJYzfYwVT2ycIGV6P2hIMpYnYyMwrC6Mo_c9DzGhmVVZp1wRDiUqNAscKNw$ >> >> >> This sucks. >> >> Everyone in the country agreed on Day 1 -- prosecute the cops, mourn for >> the dead, seek a productive path forward. There was no one left to >> persuade! On at least this one thing, we were more united than any time in >> recent memory. >> >> 7 days later...half of that goodwill, natural fellowship, and brotherhood >> has been pissed away. >> >> The sale was already made, but the sellers kept selling and likely blew >> the deal. >> >> Sucks. >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, June 3, 2020, David Kellogg wrote: >> >>> I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd Precinct >>> (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely >>> proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). >>> >>> Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive >>> politics--but it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities >>> in the USA. I went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a >>> chain-link fence dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember >>> the column of black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, >>> because it was halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower >>> Hill. >>> >>> Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a >>> paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the >>> Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black >>> people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) >>> and financing fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops >>> how to use hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas >>> deployments of the US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, >>> sported a "white power" badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal >>> (but he also said pretty much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack >>> Obama). >>> >>> There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union >>> launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical >>> Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed >>> the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group >>> of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized >>> the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the >>> population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in >>> mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder >>> if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. >>> >>> (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, but >>> there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UV7sZERHtmSJJYzfYwVT2ycIGV6P2hIMpYnYyMwrC6Mo_c9DzGhmVVZp1wRDiUqf3FLK6g$ >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UV7sZERHtmSJJYzfYwVT2ycIGV6P2hIMpYnYyMwrC6Mo_c9DzGhmVVZp1wRDiUpOtVmUCg$ >>> >>> >>> >> -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UV7sZERHtmSJJYzfYwVT2ycIGV6P2hIMpYnYyMwrC6Mo_c9DzGhmVVZp1wRDiUptlARIDw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200603/18b2524b/attachment.html From Peg.Griffin@att.net Wed Jun 3 19:57:01 2020 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin, Ph.D.) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 22:57:01 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007d01d63a1b$d24c6bc0$76e54340$@att.net> May, 3, 2020, DC, we march and chant, ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? We stop for more testimonials about our dead and endangered. We march and chant again: ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? More and more armed active duty military move closer to us, now behind us. Edging in, making our group, two groups. Our young leaders know that move and know what we can do next? From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 9:00 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis You might lay out the program of a second strike for the people of Minneapolis, David. It would deflect from stereotypes about what the range of demands can be. Of course Anthony was not throwing a sucker punch. But some ones are throwing sucker punches by using the peaceful rallies as a pretext for violence. At the moment (or last time I looked) analysts watching video are trying to figure out who is coming to protests with duffle bags full of bats. And everyone is scared witless by the fear of what Trump is doing with almost no opposition from the Republican Senate. It just all stinks of 1937-1939 to me. I'm a very premature antifacist by birth. With Global Warming and Covid-19 thrown in. mike On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:45 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony: When I was a kid, there was a street fighting tactic called "sucker punching". You waltz up to your sucker, you point vaguely over his shoulder--suckers are invariably male--and you say something like "Wow! Look at that!" "Watch out!" or "Hey--what's over there?". Then as the sucker turns his head, ya let him have it. I would characterize ALL looting as a kind of "sucker punching", a kind of whataboutism"--a flash-bang distraction, a way of changing the subject. I don't just mean what Biden, Cuomo, and this morning President Obama meant--that is, that looting is what allows Mr. Trump to bluster and bellow and get everybody to forget the murders of black people. He's gonna do that anyway, because it's all he knows how to do. I mean that looting doesn't address the police who murdered and who murder with impunity, doesn't redress the doctrine of "Qualified Immunity" brought in by the Supreme Court to protect killer cops, and doesn't eliminate the paramilitary "Police Union" in Minneapolis which has SUCCESSFULLY defended the killers of Philando Castile and Jamar Clark. Now I assume you are not trying to sucker punch me--you know I'm no sucker. I assume that the long, informative list of looted venues you have supplied (many names I recognize from my slot-car racing, milk-shake sipping, mispent youth) is not trying to change the topic of this thread. I think it is a genuine--nay, a well-appreciated--attempt, to show me the scope of the problem. But I suspect you are not really aware that what you have actually done is to make, even more eloquently than I could have done, the case for a second Minneapolis general strike. A second Minneapolis General Strike would offer special protection to businesses run by community members the way that no National Guard or military repression can. In the First Minneapolis General strike, strike committees were community members. A second Minneapolis General Strike would prevent the spread of Covid 19 in a way that "reopening" small businesses has imperilled. (Today the Swedes admitted that the Swedish model was a mistake) A second Minneapolis General Strike would render the curfew irrelevant. Only essential neighborhood businesses, not milk shake parlors and slot car race tracks, would be allowed to stay open. A second Minneapolis General Strike would allow a democratically elected strike committee to clearly distinguish between proportionate responses on the one hand and whataboutism and sucker-punching small business on the other. (Why can't Minnesotans rely on the democratically elected Democratic-Farmer-Labor city and state adminstration to do that? I'm glad you asked. For the same reason that Derek Chauvin had to be arrested by the state authorities and not by the Hennepin County cop shop--there is already a state of dual power in Minnesota, but it is led by Bob Kroll and his lawless, orderless "law-and-order" "Police Federation". Can we stop using the term "law enforcement" now?) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VyI7x1UrjHFxCsUIBHOXe9jTREcAjMnfS8bHYxL1MkGfx-1AkB5IGUfqnSamafsTeEtoPw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VyI7x1UrjHFxCsUIBHOXe9jTREcAjMnfS8bHYxL1MkGfx-1AkB5IGUfqnSamafub7TX79g$ On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:49 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of the proportionate response too: In Minneapolis ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property damage and looted. ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed by fire. ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage. ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water damage. ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and looting. ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed. ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property damage. ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: Property damage and looting. ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire damage. ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire damage. ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and looting. ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and looting. ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and looting. ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage and looting. ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. ? Tibet Store: Property damage. ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, graffiti and some interior damage. ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, extensive fire damage. ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire damage. ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and 29th: Fire, destroyed. ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property damage, looting. ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle smashed through windows. ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti. ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle stolen. ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, looting. ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft of ATM. ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. Seward Community Co-op, Facebook ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting. ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. Spencer Wallman ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and looting. ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed report of looting, property damage. ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. ? Bondesque: Property damage. In St. Paul ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property damage and looting. ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. ? Turf Club: Property damage. ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and looting. ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, looting. ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. ? To New York Midway: Property damage. ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire. ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, graffiti. ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. ? The Fixery, Highland: Property damage. ? Bole Ethiopian Restaurant: Fire. ? Enterprise University Avenue: Fire. ? Goodwill: Property damage. In Twin Cities suburbs ? Target Maplewood: Property damage and looting ? The Jewelers Saint Anthony: Property damage. ? GameStop Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting. ? Walmart Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting .? T-Mobile Store Brooklyn Center: Property damage. ? Family Dollar Brooklyn Center: Property damage. ? Walgreens 63rd and Brooklyn Blvd., Brooklyn Center: Property damage. ? Western Service Center, Apple Valley: Property, fire, and water damage. Or how about this? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DarrenJBeattie/status/1268003013425344514?s=19__;!!Mih3wA!VyI7x1UrjHFxCsUIBHOXe9jTREcAjMnfS8bHYxL1MkGfx-1AkB5IGUfqnSamafvlFUJduw$ This sucks. Everyone in the country agreed on Day 1 -- prosecute the cops, mourn for the dead, seek a productive path forward. There was no one left to persuade! On at least this one thing, we were more united than any time in recent memory. 7 days later...half of that goodwill, natural fellowship, and brotherhood has been pissed away. The sale was already made, but the sellers kept selling and likely blew the deal. Sucks. Anthony On Wednesday, June 3, 2020, David Kellogg > wrote: I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd Precinct (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive politics--but it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities in the USA. I went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a chain-link fence dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember the column of black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, because it was halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower Hill. Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) and financing fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops how to use hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas deployments of the US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, sported a "white power" badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal (but he also said pretty much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack Obama). There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, but there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VyI7x1UrjHFxCsUIBHOXe9jTREcAjMnfS8bHYxL1MkGfx-1AkB5IGUfqnSamafsTeEtoPw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VyI7x1UrjHFxCsUIBHOXe9jTREcAjMnfS8bHYxL1MkGfx-1AkB5IGUfqnSamafub7TX79g$ -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VyI7x1UrjHFxCsUIBHOXe9jTREcAjMnfS8bHYxL1MkGfx-1AkB5IGUfqnSamafth9sdSdw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200603/a4a2b2d7/attachment.html From Peg.Griffin@att.net Wed Jun 3 20:04:49 2020 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin, Ph.D.) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 23:04:49 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis References: Message-ID: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> BTW, clearly the answer to the chant had to be: ?We are here in riot gear to get you to start a riot, dear.? From: Peg Griffin, Ph.D. [mailto:Peg.Griffin@att.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 10:57 PM To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis May, 3, 2020, DC, we march and chant, ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? We stop for more testimonials about our dead and endangered. We march and chant again: ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? More and more armed active duty military move closer to us, now behind us. Edging in, making our group, two groups. Our young leaders know that move and know what we can do next? From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 9:00 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis You might lay out the program of a second strike for the people of Minneapolis, David. It would deflect from stereotypes about what the range of demands can be. Of course Anthony was not throwing a sucker punch. But some ones are throwing sucker punches by using the peaceful rallies as a pretext for violence. At the moment (or last time I looked) analysts watching video are trying to figure out who is coming to protests with duffle bags full of bats. And everyone is scared witless by the fear of what Trump is doing with almost no opposition from the Republican Senate. It just all stinks of 1937-1939 to me. I'm a very premature antifacist by birth. With Global Warming and Covid-19 thrown in. mike On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:45 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony: When I was a kid, there was a street fighting tactic called "sucker punching". You waltz up to your sucker, you point vaguely over his shoulder--suckers are invariably male--and you say something like "Wow! Look at that!" "Watch out!" or "Hey--what's over there?". Then as the sucker turns his head, ya let him have it. I would characterize ALL looting as a kind of "sucker punching", a kind of whataboutism"--a flash-bang distraction, a way of changing the subject. I don't just mean what Biden, Cuomo, and this morning President Obama meant--that is, that looting is what allows Mr. Trump to bluster and bellow and get everybody to forget the murders of black people. He's gonna do that anyway, because it's all he knows how to do. I mean that looting doesn't address the police who murdered and who murder with impunity, doesn't redress the doctrine of "Qualified Immunity" brought in by the Supreme Court to protect killer cops, and doesn't eliminate the paramilitary "Police Union" in Minneapolis which has SUCCESSFULLY defended the killers of Philando Castile and Jamar Clark. Now I assume you are not trying to sucker punch me--you know I'm no sucker. I assume that the long, informative list of looted venues you have supplied (many names I recognize from my slot-car racing, milk-shake sipping, mispent youth) is not trying to change the topic of this thread. I think it is a genuine--nay, a well-appreciated--attempt, to show me the scope of the problem. But I suspect you are not really aware that what you have actually done is to make, even more eloquently than I could have done, the case for a second Minneapolis general strike. A second Minneapolis General Strike would offer special protection to businesses run by community members the way that no National Guard or military repression can. In the First Minneapolis General strike, strike committees were community members. A second Minneapolis General Strike would prevent the spread of Covid 19 in a way that "reopening" small businesses has imperilled. (Today the Swedes admitted that the Swedish model was a mistake) A second Minneapolis General Strike would render the curfew irrelevant. Only essential neighborhood businesses, not milk shake parlors and slot car race tracks, would be allowed to stay open. A second Minneapolis General Strike would allow a democratically elected strike committee to clearly distinguish between proportionate responses on the one hand and whataboutism and sucker-punching small business on the other. (Why can't Minnesotans rely on the democratically elected Democratic-Farmer-Labor city and state adminstration to do that? I'm glad you asked. For the same reason that Derek Chauvin had to be arrested by the state authorities and not by the Hennepin County cop shop--there is already a state of dual power in Minnesota, but it is led by Bob Kroll and his lawless, orderless "law-and-order" "Police Federation". Can we stop using the term "law enforcement" now?) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!V_rcRrvrGM4UvFRBAOkL8xgMrOiR2NiE6dkOCdwcb3JkExTrmHQxGkJdSNA6nNujlNEzMQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!V_rcRrvrGM4UvFRBAOkL8xgMrOiR2NiE6dkOCdwcb3JkExTrmHQxGkJdSNA6nNsNNn36JQ$ On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:49 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of the proportionate response too: In Minneapolis ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property damage and looted. ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed by fire. ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage. ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water damage. ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and looting. ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed. ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property damage. ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: Property damage and looting. ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire damage. ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire damage. ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and looting. ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and looting. ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and looting. ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage and looting. ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. ? Tibet Store: Property damage. ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, graffiti and some interior damage. ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, extensive fire damage. ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire damage. ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and 29th: Fire, destroyed. ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property damage, looting. ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle smashed through windows. ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti. ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle stolen. ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, looting. ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft of ATM. ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. Seward Community Co-op, Facebook ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting. ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. Spencer Wallman ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and looting. ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed report of looting, property damage. ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. ? Bondesque: Property damage. In St. Paul ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property damage and looting. ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. ? Turf Club: Property damage. ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and looting. ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, looting. ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. ? To New York Midway: Property damage. ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire. ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, graffiti. ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. ? The Fixery, Highland: Property damage. ? Bole Ethiopian Restaurant: Fire. ? Enterprise University Avenue: Fire. ? Goodwill: Property damage. In Twin Cities suburbs ? Target Maplewood: Property damage and looting ? The Jewelers Saint Anthony: Property damage. ? GameStop Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting. ? Walmart Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting .? T-Mobile Store Brooklyn Center: Property damage. ? Family Dollar Brooklyn Center: Property damage. ? Walgreens 63rd and Brooklyn Blvd., Brooklyn Center: Property damage. ? Western Service Center, Apple Valley: Property, fire, and water damage. Or how about this? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DarrenJBeattie/status/1268003013425344514?s=19__;!!Mih3wA!V_rcRrvrGM4UvFRBAOkL8xgMrOiR2NiE6dkOCdwcb3JkExTrmHQxGkJdSNA6nNuzFQNlRQ$ This sucks. Everyone in the country agreed on Day 1 -- prosecute the cops, mourn for the dead, seek a productive path forward. There was no one left to persuade! On at least this one thing, we were more united than any time in recent memory. 7 days later...half of that goodwill, natural fellowship, and brotherhood has been pissed away. The sale was already made, but the sellers kept selling and likely blew the deal. Sucks. Anthony On Wednesday, June 3, 2020, David Kellogg > wrote: I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd Precinct (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive politics--but it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities in the USA. I went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a chain-link fence dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember the column of black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, because it was halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower Hill. Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) and financing fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops how to use hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas deployments of the US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, sported a "white power" badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal (but he also said pretty much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack Obama). There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, but there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!V_rcRrvrGM4UvFRBAOkL8xgMrOiR2NiE6dkOCdwcb3JkExTrmHQxGkJdSNA6nNujlNEzMQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!V_rcRrvrGM4UvFRBAOkL8xgMrOiR2NiE6dkOCdwcb3JkExTrmHQxGkJdSNA6nNsNNn36JQ$ -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!V_rcRrvrGM4UvFRBAOkL8xgMrOiR2NiE6dkOCdwcb3JkExTrmHQxGkJdSNA6nNvTJIzRZw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200603/f5d09215/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Jun 3 20:05:39 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 12:05:39 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm with Peg. Demands should be made by marchers in Washington and Minneapolis and not by university professors based in a foreign country. But eliminating "qualified immunity" for cops is a transitional demand--it is designed to show that even simple demands like breathing and not getting shot require national action at the level of Supreme Court. Boots off our necks...and troops off our streets! Any use of deadly force against protestors is not only disproportionate, it's unlawful. But Mayor Frey is being either naive or disingenuous when he says that the protests have been counter-productive. Without the protests, Derek Chauvin and his accomplices would still be on the street. Besides, keeping him off the street will require more than "law enforcement". As the Minnesota Attorney General said this morning, even second degree murder is going to be hard to prove. Cops have a history of "not knowing" that if you kneel on somebody's neck for nine minutes it tends to kill them dead. (Do you know, MIke, I just realized that it's June 4th today. The 31st anniversary of the Beijing massacre. You know I was in Guangzhou when it actually happened, but I spent the next month or so around trying to find Beijing friends who had disappeared and make sure they were alright. Some of them were not. When I went to Muxidi in Beijing where the shooting started--it was very far from Tiananmen, you know--I could see that the "law enforcement" had shot out the upper windows of the apartment buildings--sometimes six stories up. And already it appears that a small business owner was hit by a live round fired by a cop in Louisville.) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UXZ1-DJjR-tCzlU_ZcD8qtT7dLzoWHRAzIDw8rnb1lwfQJ7Z2quAFklcQOme81iOjAn1Bw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UXZ1-DJjR-tCzlU_ZcD8qtT7dLzoWHRAzIDw8rnb1lwfQJ7Z2quAFklcQOme81gG6oC_Xw$ On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 10:05 AM mike cole wrote: > You might lay out the program of a second strike for the people of > Minneapolis, David. > It would deflect from stereotypes about what the range of demands can be. > > Of course Anthony was not throwing a sucker punch. But some ones are > throwing sucker punches by using the > peaceful rallies as a pretext for violence. At the moment (or last time I > looked) analysts watching > video are trying to figure out who is coming to protests with duffle bags > full of bats. And everyone > is scared witless by the fear of what Trump is doing with almost no > opposition from the Republican > Senate. > > It just all stinks of 1937-1939 to me. > I'm a very premature antifacist by birth. With Global Warming and Covid-19 > thrown in. > > mike > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:45 PM David Kellogg wrote: > >> Anthony: >> >> When I was a kid, there was a street fighting tactic called "sucker >> punching". You waltz up to your sucker, you point vaguely over his >> shoulder--suckers are invariably male--and you say something like "Wow! >> Look at that!" "Watch out!" or "Hey--what's over there?". Then as the >> sucker turns his head, ya let him have it. >> >> I would characterize ALL looting as a kind of "sucker punching", a kind >> of whataboutism"--a flash-bang distraction, a way of changing the subject. >> I don't just mean what Biden, Cuomo, and this morning President Obama >> meant--that is, that looting is what allows Mr. Trump to bluster and bellow >> and get everybody to forget the murders of black people. He's gonna do that >> anyway, because it's all he knows how to do. >> >> I mean that looting doesn't address the police who murdered and who >> murder with impunity, doesn't redress the doctrine of "Qualified >> Immunity" brought in by the Supreme Court to protect killer cops, and >> doesn't eliminate the paramilitary "Police Union" in Minneapolis which has >> SUCCESSFULLY defended the killers of Philando Castile and Jamar Clark. >> >> Now I assume you are not trying to sucker punch me--you know I'm no >> sucker. I assume that the long, informative list of looted venues you have >> supplied (many names I recognize from my slot-car racing, milk-shake >> sipping, mispent youth) is not trying to change the topic of this thread. I >> think it is a genuine--nay, a well-appreciated--attempt, to show me the >> scope of the problem. >> >> But I suspect you are not really aware that what you have actually done >> is to make, even more eloquently than I could have done, the case for a >> second Minneapolis general strike. >> A second Minneapolis General Strike would offer special protection to >> businesses run by community members the way that no National Guard or >> military repression can. In the First Minneapolis General strike, strike >> committees were community members. >> A second Minneapolis General Strike would prevent the spread of Covid 19 >> in a way that "reopening" small businesses has imperilled. (Today the >> Swedes admitted that the Swedish model was a mistake) >> A second Minneapolis General Strike would render the curfew irrelevant. >> Only essential neighborhood businesses, not milk shake parlors and slot car >> race tracks, would be allowed to stay open. >> A second Minneapolis General Strike would allow a democratically elected >> strike committee to clearly distinguish between proportionate responses on >> the one hand and whataboutism and sucker-punching small business on the >> other. >> >> (Why can't Minnesotans rely on the democratically elected >> Democratic-Farmer-Labor city and state adminstration to do that? I'm glad >> you asked. For the same reason that Derek Chauvin had to be arrested by the >> state authorities and not by the Hennepin County cop shop--there is already >> a state of dual power in Minnesota, but it is led by Bob Kroll and >> his lawless, orderless "law-and-order" "Police Federation". Can we stop >> using the term "law enforcement" now?) >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UXZ1-DJjR-tCzlU_ZcD8qtT7dLzoWHRAzIDw8rnb1lwfQJ7Z2quAFklcQOme81iOjAn1Bw$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UXZ1-DJjR-tCzlU_ZcD8qtT7dLzoWHRAzIDw8rnb1lwfQJ7Z2quAFklcQOme81gG6oC_Xw$ >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:49 AM Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >>> David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly >>> characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of the >>> proportionate response too: >>> >>> In Minneapolis >>> ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property damage >>> and looted. >>> >>> ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. >>> >>> ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed by >>> fire. >>> >>> ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water damage. >>> >>> ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door >>> smashed >>> >>> ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed. >>> >>> ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. >>> >>> ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property damage. >>> >>> ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage >>> >>> ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage >>> >>> ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage >>> >>> ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage >>> >>> ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting >>> >>> ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage >>> >>> ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting >>> >>> ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire >>> >>> ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage >>> >>> ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting >>> >>> ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. >>> >>> ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. >>> >>> ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. >>> >>> ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. >>> >>> ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. >>> >>> ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. >>> >>> ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: >>> Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. >>> >>> ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage >>> >>> ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and looting. >>> >>> ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. >>> >>> ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. >>> >>> ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window >>> >>> ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. >>> >>> ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. >>> >>> ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage and >>> looting. >>> >>> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Tibet Store: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. >>> >>> ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, graffiti >>> and some interior damage. >>> >>> ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. >>> >>> ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. >>> >>> ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire >>> >>> ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, extensive fire >>> damage. >>> >>> ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire damage. >>> >>> ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. >>> >>> ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. >>> >>> ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. >>> >>> ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and 29th: >>> Fire, destroyed. >>> >>> ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. >>> >>> ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. >>> >>> ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. >>> >>> ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. >>> >>> Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters >>> >>> ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property damage, >>> looting. >>> >>> ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle smashed >>> through windows. >>> >>> ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. >>> >>> ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti. >>> >>> ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle stolen. >>> >>> ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. >>> >>> ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft of >>> ATM. >>> >>> ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> Seward Community Co-op, Facebook >>> >>> ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. >>> >>> ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> Spencer Wallman >>> >>> ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. >>> >>> ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. >>> >>> ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. >>> >>> ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting >>> >>> ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. >>> >>> ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. >>> >>> ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. >>> >>> ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. >>> >>> ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. >>> >>> ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed report >>> of looting, property damage. >>> >>> ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. >>> >>> ? Bondesque: Property damage. >>> >>> In St. Paul >>> ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property >>> damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Turf Club: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. >>> >>> ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage >>> >>> ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. >>> >>> ? To New York Midway: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage. >>> >>> ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire. >>> >>> ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage >>> >>> ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. >>> >>> ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. >>> >>> ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, graffiti. >>> >>> ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. >>> >>> ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. >>> >>> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. >>> >>> ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. >>> >>> ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. >>> >>> ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. >>> >>> ? The Fixery, Highland: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Bole Ethiopian Restaurant: Fire. >>> >>> ? Enterprise University Avenue: Fire. >>> >>> ? Goodwill: Property damage. >>> >>> In Twin Cities suburbs >>> ? Target Maplewood: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? The Jewelers Saint Anthony: Property damage. >>> >>> ? GameStop Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Walmart Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting >>> >>> .? T-Mobile Store Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Family Dollar Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Walgreens 63rd and Brooklyn Blvd., Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Western Service Center, Apple Valley: Property, fire, and water damage. >>> >>> Or how about this? >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DarrenJBeattie/status/1268003013425344514?s=19__;!!Mih3wA!UXZ1-DJjR-tCzlU_ZcD8qtT7dLzoWHRAzIDw8rnb1lwfQJ7Z2quAFklcQOme81jldrKu9g$ >>> >>> >>> This sucks. >>> >>> Everyone in the country agreed on Day 1 -- prosecute the cops, mourn for >>> the dead, seek a productive path forward. There was no one left to >>> persuade! On at least this one thing, we were more united than any time in >>> recent memory. >>> >>> 7 days later...half of that goodwill, natural fellowship, and >>> brotherhood has been pissed away. >>> >>> The sale was already made, but the sellers kept selling and likely blew >>> the deal. >>> >>> Sucks. >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, June 3, 2020, David Kellogg wrote: >>> >>>> I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd Precinct >>>> (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely >>>> proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). >>>> >>>> Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive >>>> politics--but it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities >>>> in the USA. I went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a >>>> chain-link fence dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember >>>> the column of black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, >>>> because it was halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower >>>> Hill. >>>> >>>> Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a >>>> paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the >>>> Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black >>>> people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) >>>> and financing fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops >>>> how to use hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas >>>> deployments of the US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, >>>> sported a "white power" badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal >>>> (but he also said pretty much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack >>>> Obama). >>>> >>>> There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union >>>> launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical >>>> Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed >>>> the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group >>>> of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized >>>> the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the >>>> population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in >>>> mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder >>>> if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. >>>> >>>> (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, but >>>> there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UXZ1-DJjR-tCzlU_ZcD8qtT7dLzoWHRAzIDw8rnb1lwfQJ7Z2quAFklcQOme81iOjAn1Bw$ >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UXZ1-DJjR-tCzlU_ZcD8qtT7dLzoWHRAzIDw8rnb1lwfQJ7Z2quAFklcQOme81gG6oC_Xw$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UXZ1-DJjR-tCzlU_ZcD8qtT7dLzoWHRAzIDw8rnb1lwfQJ7Z2quAFklcQOme81hA3UUcow$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200604/98a908f4/attachment.html From haydizulfei@gmail.com Thu Jun 4 01:49:41 2020 From: haydizulfei@gmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 13:19:41 +0430 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Anthony, Good for your discussions! My superiors gave their rhymed shiny words ; thanks for them! And others of the opposing discussants ! What do you want to say lastly? Are you conscious that on the Forum there are non-Americans , the wretched of the Earth Guys? The Third Worlders? The distracted Vygotskians who have misunderstood him as having been agreed to suffocating a miserable (Hugo otherwise dignified) by the harshest and dirtiest way of killing a human? Was not the scene of a plump good-nurtured meat mountain tenting over the victim like a dismantled out-of-programme cool senseless robot heedless to the surrounding? You seem to be one-focal concentrator of the diverse phenomena!! Is it not better to make a unity of the diversities for the good of Man? (your long list of horrific disasters) You just grieve lootings and you just grieve lootings in American Streets!!? Yes ?! But your administrators have been and are more intelligent than you are . They seriously and without any doubt consider all parts of the Big World ?backyards? of the U.S. and the U.S. INTERESTS!! They don?t conceal their intentions but seems you do that veiling behind ?looting?. If only you had a wider scope ! Have you ever heard of the Tabass Coup? But if it did not fail for the stormy weather , the damages would not have been considerable!??? Just ONE man suffocated in the desert?? Of the downing of a passenger plane (by mistake???) world watching the toddler floating in the wild waters seeking their caretakers ?? I was astonished Mike said he had been to a gallery remembering my poetry? David was responsible for that! Of Mossaddegh too popular figure toppled by an American Bribery? Of the sanctions over the oppressed people who survive for bread and water and food and medicine and daily subsistence nearly all of which are secured by the Sale of our Oil ? Boasting of lessening of the Sale to Zero shamelessly means Humanitarian Aid ?? Looting or Saving ?? Frankly reply : which one ?? Misuse of the dollar weight over our economy leading to halts in every aspect of our lives? Are not these lootings? Or might your imaginary power fail ?? Life-death GGGGames??? with people born equal??? Rejoicing and bliss-funding of Iranian people?s taking to the streets encouraging to do more but now taking the military and the army to the ever secure streets of His own country? Where is the true double-standard? The misled Iranians long waited for Trump?s promise of fast speed Internet while deprived of the technique for weeks and was that just a bit lie ?? And if he hypocritically says he?s not for a regime change , it?s because of fear the of the Left or a Right who might withstand a full American intervention . Up to now there?s no guarantee of the Yankee (forgive! Common here) interests . What about looting of the whole Iraq , Iraqi people , Iraqi Museums when occupation was due streets empty of the animated all ripe for the worst lootings? Boasting of sale of tens of thousands worth of weaponry to Arabia for what ? preserving the reservoir of the history and monuments of the region which pre-dated and predates many of the world?s civilizations? The Mesopotameans , the Sumerians , the Caldians , the Assyrians , The Hindu legacies , the Parthian legacies , the Medians? , the Accamenidians? , the Manichians? , the Babolnians? , etc??? Yemen has the supremest of the Monuments who absorb the stare of the watchers now at the whim and fate of the support of Trump to what he thinks of his future victory . Incessant Exiting of the international conventions and recently quitting the UN funding conversely inserting full force over the World Bank and other financial and trade institutions do not harm preservation of lives and historical legacies of the World Nations ? These are barbaric remnants ??? ? should be destroyed to the bliss of the Trump , nay , the Trumpism , nay , the DAMMED OCTOPUS DRAGON CORPOATE GRIP OVER THE GLOBE!!! And what else could we not say ?? Enough! I usually refuse participation ! no more nerves for such disparities ! and disproportionateness ! Regards and apologies Haydi On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 7:41 AM David Kellogg wrote: > I'm with Peg. Demands should be made by marchers in Washington and > Minneapolis and not by university professors based in a foreign > country. But eliminating "qualified immunity" for cops is a transitional > demand--it is designed to show that even simple demands like breathing and > not getting shot require national action at the level of Supreme > Court. Boots off our necks...and troops off our streets! > > Any use of deadly force against protestors is not only disproportionate, > it's unlawful. But Mayor Frey is being either naive or disingenuous when he > says that the protests have been counter-productive. Without the protests, > Derek Chauvin and his accomplices would still be on the street. Besides, > keeping him off the street will require more than "law enforcement". As the > Minnesota Attorney General said this morning, even second degree murder is > going to be hard to prove. Cops have a history of "not knowing" that if you > kneel on somebody's neck for nine minutes it tends to kill them dead. > > (Do you know, MIke, I just realized that it's June 4th today. The 31st > anniversary of the Beijing massacre. You know I was in Guangzhou when it > actually happened, but I spent the next month or so around trying to find > Beijing friends who had disappeared and make sure they were alright. Some > of them were not. When I went to Muxidi in Beijing where the shooting > started--it was very far from Tiananmen, you know--I could see that the > "law enforcement" had shot out the upper windows of the apartment > buildings--sometimes six stories up. And already it appears that a small > business owner was hit by a live round fired by a cop in Louisville.) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!U4j4noloWjDRJde5Tdg5H-a_YawPq4rsUIkhOpid-82sz9iTuUhk9LZiJdA0HFKAFl4kOQ$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!U4j4noloWjDRJde5Tdg5H-a_YawPq4rsUIkhOpid-82sz9iTuUhk9LZiJdA0HFI1iUalCw$ > > > > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 10:05 AM mike cole wrote: > >> You might lay out the program of a second strike for the people of >> Minneapolis, David. >> It would deflect from stereotypes about what the range of demands can be. >> >> Of course Anthony was not throwing a sucker punch. But some ones are >> throwing sucker punches by using the >> peaceful rallies as a pretext for violence. At the moment (or last time I >> looked) analysts watching >> video are trying to figure out who is coming to protests with duffle bags >> full of bats. And everyone >> is scared witless by the fear of what Trump is doing with almost no >> opposition from the Republican >> Senate. >> >> It just all stinks of 1937-1939 to me. >> I'm a very premature antifacist by birth. With Global Warming and >> Covid-19 thrown in. >> >> mike >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:45 PM David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >>> Anthony: >>> >>> When I was a kid, there was a street fighting tactic called "sucker >>> punching". You waltz up to your sucker, you point vaguely over his >>> shoulder--suckers are invariably male--and you say something like "Wow! >>> Look at that!" "Watch out!" or "Hey--what's over there?". Then as the >>> sucker turns his head, ya let him have it. >>> >>> I would characterize ALL looting as a kind of "sucker punching", a kind >>> of whataboutism"--a flash-bang distraction, a way of changing the subject. >>> I don't just mean what Biden, Cuomo, and this morning President Obama >>> meant--that is, that looting is what allows Mr. Trump to bluster and bellow >>> and get everybody to forget the murders of black people. He's gonna do that >>> anyway, because it's all he knows how to do. >>> >>> I mean that looting doesn't address the police who murdered and who >>> murder with impunity, doesn't redress the doctrine of "Qualified >>> Immunity" brought in by the Supreme Court to protect killer cops, and >>> doesn't eliminate the paramilitary "Police Union" in Minneapolis which has >>> SUCCESSFULLY defended the killers of Philando Castile and Jamar Clark. >>> >>> Now I assume you are not trying to sucker punch me--you know I'm no >>> sucker. I assume that the long, informative list of looted venues you have >>> supplied (many names I recognize from my slot-car racing, milk-shake >>> sipping, mispent youth) is not trying to change the topic of this thread. I >>> think it is a genuine--nay, a well-appreciated--attempt, to show me the >>> scope of the problem. >>> >>> But I suspect you are not really aware that what you have actually done >>> is to make, even more eloquently than I could have done, the case for a >>> second Minneapolis general strike. >>> A second Minneapolis General Strike would offer special protection to >>> businesses run by community members the way that no National Guard or >>> military repression can. In the First Minneapolis General strike, strike >>> committees were community members. >>> A second Minneapolis General Strike would prevent the spread of Covid 19 >>> in a way that "reopening" small businesses has imperilled. (Today the >>> Swedes admitted that the Swedish model was a mistake) >>> A second Minneapolis General Strike would render the curfew irrelevant. >>> Only essential neighborhood businesses, not milk shake parlors and slot car >>> race tracks, would be allowed to stay open. >>> A second Minneapolis General Strike would allow a democratically >>> elected strike committee to clearly distinguish between proportionate >>> responses on the one hand and whataboutism and sucker-punching small >>> business on the other. >>> >>> (Why can't Minnesotans rely on the democratically elected >>> Democratic-Farmer-Labor city and state adminstration to do that? I'm glad >>> you asked. For the same reason that Derek Chauvin had to be arrested by the >>> state authorities and not by the Hennepin County cop shop--there is already >>> a state of dual power in Minnesota, but it is led by Bob Kroll and >>> his lawless, orderless "law-and-order" "Police Federation". Can we stop >>> using the term "law enforcement" now?) >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!U4j4noloWjDRJde5Tdg5H-a_YawPq4rsUIkhOpid-82sz9iTuUhk9LZiJdA0HFKAFl4kOQ$ >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!U4j4noloWjDRJde5Tdg5H-a_YawPq4rsUIkhOpid-82sz9iTuUhk9LZiJdA0HFI1iUalCw$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:49 AM Anthony Barra >>> wrote: >>> >>>> David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly >>>> characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of the >>>> proportionate response too: >>>> >>>> In Minneapolis >>>> ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property damage >>>> and looted. >>>> >>>> ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed by >>>> fire. >>>> >>>> ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water >>>> damage. >>>> >>>> ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door >>>> smashed >>>> >>>> ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed. >>>> >>>> ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. >>>> >>>> ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage >>>> >>>> ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage >>>> >>>> ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage >>>> >>>> ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage >>>> >>>> ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting >>>> >>>> ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage >>>> >>>> ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting >>>> >>>> ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire >>>> >>>> ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage >>>> >>>> ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting >>>> >>>> ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. >>>> >>>> ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. >>>> >>>> ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. >>>> >>>> ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. >>>> >>>> ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. >>>> >>>> ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. >>>> >>>> ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: >>>> Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. >>>> >>>> ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage >>>> >>>> ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. >>>> >>>> ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window >>>> >>>> ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. >>>> >>>> ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. >>>> >>>> ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage and >>>> looting. >>>> >>>> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Tibet Store: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. >>>> >>>> ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, graffiti >>>> and some interior damage. >>>> >>>> ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. >>>> >>>> ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire >>>> >>>> ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, extensive >>>> fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. >>>> >>>> ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. >>>> >>>> ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and 29th: >>>> Fire, destroyed. >>>> >>>> ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. >>>> >>>> ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. >>>> >>>> ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. >>>> >>>> ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. >>>> >>>> Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters >>>> >>>> ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property damage, >>>> looting. >>>> >>>> ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle smashed >>>> through windows. >>>> >>>> ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. >>>> >>>> ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti. >>>> >>>> ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle stolen. >>>> >>>> ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft of >>>> ATM. >>>> >>>> ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> Seward Community Co-op, Facebook >>>> >>>> ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. >>>> >>>> ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> Spencer Wallman >>>> >>>> ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. >>>> >>>> ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. >>>> >>>> ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. >>>> >>>> ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting >>>> >>>> ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. >>>> >>>> ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. >>>> >>>> ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. >>>> >>>> ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. >>>> >>>> ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed report >>>> of looting, property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Bondesque: Property damage. >>>> >>>> In St. Paul >>>> ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property >>>> damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Turf Club: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. >>>> >>>> ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage >>>> >>>> ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, >>>> looting. >>>> >>>> ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? To New York Midway: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire. >>>> >>>> ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage >>>> >>>> ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. >>>> >>>> ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. >>>> >>>> ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, >>>> graffiti. >>>> >>>> ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. >>>> >>>> ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. >>>> >>>> ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. >>>> >>>> ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. >>>> >>>> ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? The Fixery, Highland: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Bole Ethiopian Restaurant: Fire. >>>> >>>> ? Enterprise University Avenue: Fire. >>>> >>>> ? Goodwill: Property damage. >>>> >>>> In Twin Cities suburbs >>>> ? Target Maplewood: Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? The Jewelers Saint Anthony: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? GameStop Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Walmart Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting >>>> >>>> .? T-Mobile Store Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Family Dollar Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Walgreens 63rd and Brooklyn Blvd., Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Western Service Center, Apple Valley: Property, fire, and water >>>> damage. >>>> >>>> Or how about this? >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DarrenJBeattie/status/1268003013425344514?s=19__;!!Mih3wA!U4j4noloWjDRJde5Tdg5H-a_YawPq4rsUIkhOpid-82sz9iTuUhk9LZiJdA0HFJGOy6hCw$ >>>> >>>> >>>> This sucks. >>>> >>>> Everyone in the country agreed on Day 1 -- prosecute the cops, mourn >>>> for the dead, seek a productive path forward. There was no one left to >>>> persuade! On at least this one thing, we were more united than any time in >>>> recent memory. >>>> >>>> 7 days later...half of that goodwill, natural fellowship, and >>>> brotherhood has been pissed away. >>>> >>>> The sale was already made, but the sellers kept selling and likely blew >>>> the deal. >>>> >>>> Sucks. >>>> >>>> Anthony >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, June 3, 2020, David Kellogg wrote: >>>> >>>>> I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd >>>>> Precinct (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely >>>>> proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). >>>>> >>>>> Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive >>>>> politics--but it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities >>>>> in the USA. I went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a >>>>> chain-link fence dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember >>>>> the column of black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, >>>>> because it was halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower >>>>> Hill. >>>>> >>>>> Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a >>>>> paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the >>>>> Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black >>>>> people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) >>>>> and financing fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops >>>>> how to use hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas >>>>> deployments of the US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, >>>>> sported a "white power" badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal >>>>> (but he also said pretty much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack >>>>> Obama). >>>>> >>>>> There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union >>>>> launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical >>>>> Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed >>>>> the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group >>>>> of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized >>>>> the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the >>>>> population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in >>>>> mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder >>>>> if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. >>>>> >>>>> (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, >>>>> but there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>> >>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!U4j4noloWjDRJde5Tdg5H-a_YawPq4rsUIkhOpid-82sz9iTuUhk9LZiJdA0HFKAFl4kOQ$ >>>>> >>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!U4j4noloWjDRJde5Tdg5H-a_YawPq4rsUIkhOpid-82sz9iTuUhk9LZiJdA0HFI1iUalCw$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> >> -- >> >> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and >> it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of >> rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the >> same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. >> --------------------------------------------------- >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!U4j4noloWjDRJde5Tdg5H-a_YawPq4rsUIkhOpid-82sz9iTuUhk9LZiJdA0HFIt4LegAg$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200604/edceb41e/attachment-0001.html From stephenwals@gmail.com Thu Jun 4 02:28:44 2020 From: stephenwals@gmail.com (Stephen Walsh) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 10:28:44 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Steve Reicher has done some great work following on the London, Manchester (and earlier the Bristol) riots. He argues that: First, people are predisposed to riot when they have a sense of being treated illegitimately and of the uselessness of making polite complaints or conventional protests. Second, the events that initiate riots embody these beliefs but also bring people together,give them a sense of shared outrage and empower them to strike back. Third, riots themselves are not senseless explosions in which anything and everything becomes possible. Rather the patterns of crowd behaviour reflect the world view of rioters: their sense of who is friend and who is foe. Without police brutality there can not be anti police riots. Constructing the rioters as 'mindless' feeds into a 'more police needed' narrative the gives more power to those who caused the violence in the first place. Social justice is the answer. On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 9:52 AM Haydi Zulfei wrote: > Dear Anthony, > > Good for your discussions! > > My superiors gave their rhymed shiny words ; thanks for them! And others > of the opposing discussants ! > > What do you want to say lastly? > > Are you conscious that on the Forum there are non-Americans , the wretched > of the Earth Guys? The Third Worlders? The distracted Vygotskians who have > misunderstood him as having been agreed to suffocating a miserable (Hugo > otherwise dignified) by the harshest and dirtiest way of killing a human? > Was not the scene of a plump good-nurtured meat mountain tenting over the > victim like a dismantled out-of-programme cool senseless robot heedless to > the surrounding? > > You seem to be one-focal concentrator of the diverse phenomena!! Is it not > better to make a unity of the diversities for the good of Man? (your long > list of horrific disasters) > > You just grieve lootings and you just grieve lootings in American > Streets!!? Yes ?! > > But your administrators have been and are more intelligent than you are . > They seriously and without any doubt consider all parts of the Big World > ?backyards? of the U.S. and the U.S. INTERESTS!! They don?t conceal their > intentions but seems you do that veiling behind ?looting?. If only you had > a wider scope ! > > Have you ever heard of the Tabass Coup? But if it did not fail for the > stormy weather , the damages would not have been considerable!??? Just ONE > man suffocated in the desert?? Of the downing of a passenger plane (by > mistake???) world watching the toddler floating in the wild waters seeking > their caretakers ?? I was astonished Mike said he had been to a gallery > remembering my poetry? David was responsible for that! Of Mossaddegh too > popular figure toppled by an American Bribery? Of the sanctions over the > oppressed people who survive for bread and water and food and medicine and > daily subsistence nearly all of which are secured by the Sale of our Oil ? > Boasting of lessening of the Sale to Zero shamelessly means Humanitarian > Aid ?? Looting or Saving ?? Frankly reply : which one ?? Misuse of the > dollar weight over our economy leading to halts in every aspect of our > lives? Are not these lootings? Or might your imaginary power fail ?? > Life-death GGGGames??? with people born equal??? Rejoicing and > bliss-funding of Iranian people?s taking to the streets encouraging to do > more but now taking the military and the army to the ever secure streets of > His own country? Where is the true double-standard? The misled Iranians > long waited for Trump?s promise of fast speed Internet while deprived of > the technique for weeks and was that just a bit lie ?? And if he > hypocritically says he?s not for a regime change , it?s because of fear the > of the Left or a Right who might withstand a full American intervention . > Up to now there?s no guarantee of the Yankee (forgive! Common here) > interests . > > What about looting of the whole Iraq , Iraqi people , Iraqi Museums when > occupation was due streets empty of the animated all ripe for the worst > lootings? Boasting of sale of tens of thousands worth of weaponry to Arabia > for what ? preserving the reservoir of the history and monuments of the > region which pre-dated and predates many of the world?s civilizations? The > Mesopotameans , the Sumerians , the Caldians , the Assyrians , The Hindu > legacies , the Parthian legacies , the Medians? , the Accamenidians? , the > Manichians? , the Babolnians? , etc??? Yemen has the supremest of the > Monuments who absorb the stare of the watchers now at the whim and fate of > the support of Trump to what he thinks of his future victory . Incessant > Exiting of the international conventions and recently quitting the UN > funding conversely inserting full force over the World Bank and other > financial and trade institutions do not harm preservation of lives and > historical legacies of the World Nations ? These are barbaric remnants ??? > ? should be destroyed to the bliss of the Trump , nay , the Trumpism , nay > , the DAMMED OCTOPUS DRAGON CORPOATE GRIP OVER THE GLOBE!!! And what else > could we not say ?? > > Enough! I usually refuse participation ! no more nerves for such > disparities ! and disproportionateness ! > > Regards and apologies > > Haydi > > > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 7:41 AM David Kellogg wrote: > >> I'm with Peg. Demands should be made by marchers in Washington and >> Minneapolis and not by university professors based in a foreign >> country. But eliminating "qualified immunity" for cops is a transitional >> demand--it is designed to show that even simple demands like breathing and >> not getting shot require national action at the level of Supreme >> Court. Boots off our necks...and troops off our streets! >> >> Any use of deadly force against protestors is not only disproportionate, >> it's unlawful. But Mayor Frey is being either naive or disingenuous when he >> says that the protests have been counter-productive. Without the protests, >> Derek Chauvin and his accomplices would still be on the street. Besides, >> keeping him off the street will require more than "law enforcement". As the >> Minnesota Attorney General said this morning, even second degree murder is >> going to be hard to prove. Cops have a history of "not knowing" that if you >> kneel on somebody's neck for nine minutes it tends to kill them dead. >> >> (Do you know, MIke, I just realized that it's June 4th today. The 31st >> anniversary of the Beijing massacre. You know I was in Guangzhou when it >> actually happened, but I spent the next month or so around trying to find >> Beijing friends who had disappeared and make sure they were alright. Some >> of them were not. When I went to Muxidi in Beijing where the shooting >> started--it was very far from Tiananmen, you know--I could see that the >> "law enforcement" had shot out the upper windows of the apartment >> buildings--sometimes six stories up. And already it appears that a small >> business owner was hit by a live round fired by a cop in Louisville.) >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VjidDBfK3PafdxaRFdZZ_zzURzJfMJRQKllVaXmHnd9UHpszC7S8lOuvjuI8J5Jd1Ay7Vw$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VjidDBfK3PafdxaRFdZZ_zzURzJfMJRQKllVaXmHnd9UHpszC7S8lOuvjuI8J5IgCbmTNQ$ >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 10:05 AM mike cole wrote: >> >>> You might lay out the program of a second strike for the people of >>> Minneapolis, David. >>> It would deflect from stereotypes about what the range of demands can be. >>> >>> Of course Anthony was not throwing a sucker punch. But some ones are >>> throwing sucker punches by using the >>> peaceful rallies as a pretext for violence. At the moment (or last time >>> I looked) analysts watching >>> video are trying to figure out who is coming to protests with duffle >>> bags full of bats. And everyone >>> is scared witless by the fear of what Trump is doing with almost no >>> opposition from the Republican >>> Senate. >>> >>> It just all stinks of 1937-1939 to me. >>> I'm a very premature antifacist by birth. With Global Warming and >>> Covid-19 thrown in. >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:45 PM David Kellogg >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Anthony: >>>> >>>> When I was a kid, there was a street fighting tactic called "sucker >>>> punching". You waltz up to your sucker, you point vaguely over his >>>> shoulder--suckers are invariably male--and you say something like "Wow! >>>> Look at that!" "Watch out!" or "Hey--what's over there?". Then as the >>>> sucker turns his head, ya let him have it. >>>> >>>> I would characterize ALL looting as a kind of "sucker punching", a kind >>>> of whataboutism"--a flash-bang distraction, a way of changing the subject. >>>> I don't just mean what Biden, Cuomo, and this morning President Obama >>>> meant--that is, that looting is what allows Mr. Trump to bluster and bellow >>>> and get everybody to forget the murders of black people. He's gonna do that >>>> anyway, because it's all he knows how to do. >>>> >>>> I mean that looting doesn't address the police who murdered and who >>>> murder with impunity, doesn't redress the doctrine of "Qualified >>>> Immunity" brought in by the Supreme Court to protect killer cops, and >>>> doesn't eliminate the paramilitary "Police Union" in Minneapolis which has >>>> SUCCESSFULLY defended the killers of Philando Castile and Jamar Clark. >>>> >>>> Now I assume you are not trying to sucker punch me--you know I'm no >>>> sucker. I assume that the long, informative list of looted venues you have >>>> supplied (many names I recognize from my slot-car racing, milk-shake >>>> sipping, mispent youth) is not trying to change the topic of this thread. I >>>> think it is a genuine--nay, a well-appreciated--attempt, to show me the >>>> scope of the problem. >>>> >>>> But I suspect you are not really aware that what you have actually done >>>> is to make, even more eloquently than I could have done, the case for a >>>> second Minneapolis general strike. >>>> A second Minneapolis General Strike would offer special protection to >>>> businesses run by community members the way that no National Guard or >>>> military repression can. In the First Minneapolis General strike, strike >>>> committees were community members. >>>> A second Minneapolis General Strike would prevent the spread of Covid >>>> 19 in a way that "reopening" small businesses has imperilled. (Today the >>>> Swedes admitted that the Swedish model was a mistake) >>>> A second Minneapolis General Strike would render the curfew irrelevant. >>>> Only essential neighborhood businesses, not milk shake parlors and slot car >>>> race tracks, would be allowed to stay open. >>>> A second Minneapolis General Strike would allow a democratically >>>> elected strike committee to clearly distinguish between proportionate >>>> responses on the one hand and whataboutism and sucker-punching small >>>> business on the other. >>>> >>>> (Why can't Minnesotans rely on the democratically elected >>>> Democratic-Farmer-Labor city and state adminstration to do that? I'm glad >>>> you asked. For the same reason that Derek Chauvin had to be arrested by the >>>> state authorities and not by the Hennepin County cop shop--there is already >>>> a state of dual power in Minnesota, but it is led by Bob Kroll and >>>> his lawless, orderless "law-and-order" "Police Federation". Can we stop >>>> using the term "law enforcement" now?) >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VjidDBfK3PafdxaRFdZZ_zzURzJfMJRQKllVaXmHnd9UHpszC7S8lOuvjuI8J5Jd1Ay7Vw$ >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VjidDBfK3PafdxaRFdZZ_zzURzJfMJRQKllVaXmHnd9UHpszC7S8lOuvjuI8J5IgCbmTNQ$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:49 AM Anthony Barra >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly >>>>> characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of the >>>>> proportionate response too: >>>>> >>>>> In Minneapolis >>>>> ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property damage >>>>> and looted. >>>>> >>>>> ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed by >>>>> fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water >>>>> damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door >>>>> smashed >>>>> >>>>> ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed. >>>>> >>>>> ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage >>>>> >>>>> ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage >>>>> >>>>> ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage >>>>> >>>>> ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage >>>>> >>>>> ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting >>>>> >>>>> ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage >>>>> >>>>> ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting >>>>> >>>>> ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire >>>>> >>>>> ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage >>>>> >>>>> ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting >>>>> >>>>> ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. >>>>> >>>>> ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: >>>>> Property damage and looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage >>>>> >>>>> ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire >>>>> damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and >>>>> looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window >>>>> >>>>> ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. >>>>> >>>>> ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage and >>>>> looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Tibet Store: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. >>>>> >>>>> ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, graffiti >>>>> and some interior damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire >>>>> >>>>> ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, extensive >>>>> fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. >>>>> >>>>> ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. >>>>> >>>>> ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and 29th: >>>>> Fire, destroyed. >>>>> >>>>> ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. >>>>> >>>>> ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. >>>>> >>>>> Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters >>>>> >>>>> ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property damage, >>>>> looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle smashed >>>>> through windows. >>>>> >>>>> ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. >>>>> >>>>> ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti. >>>>> >>>>> ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle stolen. >>>>> >>>>> ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft of >>>>> ATM. >>>>> >>>>> ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> Seward Community Co-op, Facebook >>>>> >>>>> ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. >>>>> >>>>> ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> Spencer Wallman >>>>> >>>>> ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. >>>>> >>>>> ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. >>>>> >>>>> ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. >>>>> >>>>> ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting >>>>> >>>>> ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. >>>>> >>>>> ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. >>>>> >>>>> ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. >>>>> >>>>> ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed report >>>>> of looting, property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Bondesque: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> In St. Paul >>>>> ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property >>>>> damage and looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Turf Club: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage >>>>> >>>>> ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, >>>>> looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? To New York Midway: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage >>>>> >>>>> ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. >>>>> >>>>> ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, >>>>> graffiti. >>>>> >>>>> ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? The Fixery, Highland: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Bole Ethiopian Restaurant: Fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? Enterprise University Avenue: Fire. >>>>> >>>>> ? Goodwill: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> In Twin Cities suburbs >>>>> ? Target Maplewood: Property damage and looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? The Jewelers Saint Anthony: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? GameStop Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting. >>>>> >>>>> ? Walmart Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting >>>>> >>>>> .? T-Mobile Store Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Family Dollar Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Walgreens 63rd and Brooklyn Blvd., Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >>>>> >>>>> ? Western Service Center, Apple Valley: Property, fire, and water >>>>> damage. >>>>> >>>>> Or how about this? >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DarrenJBeattie/status/1268003013425344514?s=19__;!!Mih3wA!VjidDBfK3PafdxaRFdZZ_zzURzJfMJRQKllVaXmHnd9UHpszC7S8lOuvjuI8J5IfCLZ7Sg$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This sucks. >>>>> >>>>> Everyone in the country agreed on Day 1 -- prosecute the cops, mourn >>>>> for the dead, seek a productive path forward. There was no one left to >>>>> persuade! On at least this one thing, we were more united than any time in >>>>> recent memory. >>>>> >>>>> 7 days later...half of that goodwill, natural fellowship, and >>>>> brotherhood has been pissed away. >>>>> >>>>> The sale was already made, but the sellers kept selling and likely >>>>> blew the deal. >>>>> >>>>> Sucks. >>>>> >>>>> Anthony >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, June 3, 2020, David Kellogg >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd >>>>>> Precinct (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely >>>>>> proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). >>>>>> >>>>>> Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive >>>>>> politics--but it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities >>>>>> in the USA. I went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a >>>>>> chain-link fence dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember >>>>>> the column of black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, >>>>>> because it was halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower >>>>>> Hill. >>>>>> >>>>>> Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" >>>>>> but a paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the >>>>>> Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black >>>>>> people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) >>>>>> and financing fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops >>>>>> how to use hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas >>>>>> deployments of the US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, >>>>>> sported a "white power" badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal >>>>>> (but he also said pretty much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack >>>>>> Obama). >>>>>> >>>>>> There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union >>>>>> launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical >>>>>> Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed >>>>>> the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group >>>>>> of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized >>>>>> the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the >>>>>> population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in >>>>>> mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder >>>>>> if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. >>>>>> >>>>>> (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, >>>>>> but there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>>> >>>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VjidDBfK3PafdxaRFdZZ_zzURzJfMJRQKllVaXmHnd9UHpszC7S8lOuvjuI8J5Jd1Ay7Vw$ >>>>>> >>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VjidDBfK3PafdxaRFdZZ_zzURzJfMJRQKllVaXmHnd9UHpszC7S8lOuvjuI8J5IgCbmTNQ$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and >>> it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of >>> rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the >>> same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VjidDBfK3PafdxaRFdZZ_zzURzJfMJRQKllVaXmHnd9UHpszC7S8lOuvjuI8J5K9Ch5LNw$ >>> >>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>> >>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200604/c411dd31/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Thu Jun 4 06:03:23 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:03:23 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David, hello. You are correct that I am not a sucker puncher, nor a fire-bomber. Maybe a sucker, idk but I do my best to avoid that outcome: ) I come in peace, productively I hope. And honestly. You (and Mike) are also correct that the long list I shared (admittedly a rhetorical choice but in no way a 'tactic') was designed to bring more fullness to the story(ies) we are witnessing - from up close and from afar. As was the other list I shared (I wish the link was better), which is a thread of 12 or so tweets, each detailing a life unfortunately lost over the past week of protesting (rioting? uprising? righteous anger? etc etc -- I prefer "protesting" as my descriptor of choice). So yes, you are right: these are not sucker punches, and I've seen more than enough from you here to know that you welcome diverse perspectives and are more than up to the task of sorting through complexity. In fact, I count myself as genuinely naive here when I read through all sorts of xmca threads on topics I know little about -- e.g., I don't know too much about this General Strike idea, but I'm happy to hear more about it. My guess is that many in my primary information bubble (i.e., generally more conservative, blue-collar, nationalist, and also discussing Qualified Immunity) would reflexively disagree with you here; but I myself don't really know what you're getting at, and part of the reason I like the xmca chats, aside from the Vygotsky-stuff (my primary interest), is the viewpoint diversity. Some of it I find baffling, occasionally even appalling to my sensibilities, but so it goes -- it's likely that I have objectional opinions too. Still, I prefer not to retreat into tribalistic team corners (even if that might be tactically optimal) because I'm trying to stay in touch with reality as best I can, blah blah...you've heard this all before. Viewpoint diversity, confirmation bias, mental models, seeking disconfirmation, etc. In short, some things we disagree on. Who cares! I will try to lessen the loaded language and Russell conjugations in my posts but won't ask the same from you; I like reading your stuff, and your style. Lastly, there is probably much substance in your last post that I am frustratingly glossing over; that's not intentional, nor is it evasion. It might be low-IQ, but it's more likely uncertainty, or an inability to add anything productive here. Thank you for engaging with me. Anthony P.S. The link that might have been glossed over last time is here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/4pqaqz__;!!Mih3wA!T8YXKL9cPRZBbxjGZPVaW5t9AuOluQVSo-cP3-O8ULT-ag5LoVsyt0gkmyL2xOAgTpCPAw$ P.P.S. A question for Everyone here: for me, xmca is a great escape from my daily information bubble; is there anywhere you go to deliberately get outside your typical filter? Thanks in advance for any ideas. On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 8:45 PM David Kellogg wrote: > Anthony: > > When I was a kid, there was a street fighting tactic called "sucker > punching". You waltz up to your sucker, you point vaguely over his > shoulder--suckers are invariably male--and you say something like "Wow! > Look at that!" "Watch out!" or "Hey--what's over there?". Then as the > sucker turns his head, ya let him have it. > > I would characterize ALL looting as a kind of "sucker punching", a kind of > whataboutism"--a flash-bang distraction, a way of changing the subject. I > don't just mean what Biden, Cuomo, and this morning President Obama > meant--that is, that looting is what allows Mr. Trump to bluster and bellow > and get everybody to forget the murders of black people. He's gonna do that > anyway, because it's all he knows how to do. > > I mean that looting doesn't address the police who murdered and who murder > with impunity, doesn't redress the doctrine of "Qualified Immunity" brought > in by the Supreme Court to protect killer cops, and doesn't eliminate the > paramilitary "Police Union" in Minneapolis which has SUCCESSFULLY defended > the killers of Philando Castile and Jamar Clark. > > Now I assume you are not trying to sucker punch me--you know I'm no > sucker. I assume that the long, informative list of looted venues you have > supplied (many names I recognize from my slot-car racing, milk-shake > sipping, mispent youth) is not trying to change the topic of this thread. I > think it is a genuine--nay, a well-appreciated--attempt, to show me the > scope of the problem. > > But I suspect you are not really aware that what you have actually done is > to make, even more eloquently than I could have done, the case for a second > Minneapolis general strike. > A second Minneapolis General Strike would offer special protection to > businesses run by community members the way that no National Guard or > military repression can. In the First Minneapolis General strike, strike > committees were community members. > A second Minneapolis General Strike would prevent the spread of Covid 19 > in a way that "reopening" small businesses has imperilled. (Today the > Swedes admitted that the Swedish model was a mistake) > A second Minneapolis General Strike would render the curfew irrelevant. > Only essential neighborhood businesses, not milk shake parlors and slot car > race tracks, would be allowed to stay open. > A second Minneapolis General Strike would allow a democratically elected > strike committee to clearly distinguish between proportionate responses on > the one hand and whataboutism and sucker-punching small business on the > other. > > (Why can't Minnesotans rely on the democratically elected > Democratic-Farmer-Labor city and state adminstration to do that? I'm glad > you asked. For the same reason that Derek Chauvin had to be arrested by the > state authorities and not by the Hennepin County cop shop--there is already > a state of dual power in Minnesota, but it is led by Bob Kroll and > his lawless, orderless "law-and-order" "Police Federation". Can we stop > using the term "law enforcement" now?) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!T8YXKL9cPRZBbxjGZPVaW5t9AuOluQVSo-cP3-O8ULT-ag5LoVsyt0gkmyL2xOCsBu-cKw$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T8YXKL9cPRZBbxjGZPVaW5t9AuOluQVSo-cP3-O8ULT-ag5LoVsyt0gkmyL2xOA7h-3tjg$ > > > > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:49 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly >> characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of the >> proportionate response too: >> >> In Minneapolis >> ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. >> >> ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property damage >> and looted. >> >> ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. >> >> ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. >> >> ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. >> >> ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage. >> >> ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water damage. >> >> ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. >> >> ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and looting. >> >> ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. >> >> ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. >> >> ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. >> >> ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. >> >> ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door >> smashed >> >> ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed. >> >> ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. >> >> ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property damage. >> >> ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage >> >> ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage >> >> ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage >> >> ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage >> >> ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting >> >> ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage >> >> ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting >> >> ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire >> >> ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage >> >> ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting >> >> ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. >> >> ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. >> >> ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. >> >> ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: Property >> damage and looting. >> >> ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. >> >> ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. >> >> ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. >> >> ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. >> >> ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. >> >> ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage >> >> ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. >> >> ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and looting. >> >> ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and looting. >> >> ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. >> >> ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. >> >> ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. >> >> ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. >> >> ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window >> >> ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. >> >> ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. >> >> ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. >> >> ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage and >> looting. >> >> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. >> >> ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Tibet Store: Property damage. >> >> ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. >> >> ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. >> >> ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. >> >> ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. >> >> ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, graffiti and >> some interior damage. >> >> ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. >> >> ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. >> >> ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. >> >> ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >> >> ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. >> >> ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. >> >> ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >> >> ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >> >> ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. >> >> ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. >> >> ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. >> >> ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. >> >> ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. >> >> ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. >> >> ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. >> >> ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire >> >> ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, extensive fire >> damage. >> >> ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire damage. >> >> ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. >> >> ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. >> >> ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. >> >> ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and 29th: >> Fire, destroyed. >> >> ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. >> >> ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. >> >> ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. >> >> ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. >> >> Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters >> >> ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. >> >> ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property damage, >> looting. >> >> ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle smashed >> through windows. >> >> ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. >> >> ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. >> >> ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. >> >> ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti. >> >> ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle stolen. >> >> ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. >> >> ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft of ATM. >> >> ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. >> >> Seward Community Co-op, Facebook >> >> ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. >> >> ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. >> >> ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. >> >> ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> Spencer Wallman >> >> ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. >> >> ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. >> >> ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. >> >> ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. >> >> ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. >> >> ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting >> >> ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. >> >> ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. >> >> ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. >> >> ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. >> >> ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. >> >> ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. >> >> ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed report of >> looting, property damage. >> >> ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. >> >> ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. >> >> ? Bondesque: Property damage. >> >> In St. Paul >> ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property damage >> and looting. >> >> ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. >> >> ? Turf Club: Property damage. >> >> ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. >> >> ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. >> >> ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage >> >> ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. >> >> ? To New York Midway: Property damage. >> >> ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. >> >> ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage. >> >> ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire. >> >> ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage >> >> ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. >> >> ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. >> >> ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, graffiti. >> >> ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. >> >> ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. >> >> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. >> >> ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. >> >> ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. >> >> ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. >> >> ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. >> >> ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. >> >> ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. >> >> ? The Fixery, Highland: Property damage. >> >> ? Bole Ethiopian Restaurant: Fire. >> >> ? Enterprise University Avenue: Fire. >> >> ? Goodwill: Property damage. >> >> In Twin Cities suburbs >> ? Target Maplewood: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? The Jewelers Saint Anthony: Property damage. >> >> ? GameStop Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Walmart Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting >> >> .? T-Mobile Store Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >> >> ? Family Dollar Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >> >> ? Walgreens 63rd and Brooklyn Blvd., Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >> >> ? Western Service Center, Apple Valley: Property, fire, and water damage. >> >> Or how about this? >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DarrenJBeattie/status/1268003013425344514?s=19__;!!Mih3wA!T8YXKL9cPRZBbxjGZPVaW5t9AuOluQVSo-cP3-O8ULT-ag5LoVsyt0gkmyL2xODYdyyg4A$ >> >> >> This sucks. >> >> Everyone in the country agreed on Day 1 -- prosecute the cops, mourn for >> the dead, seek a productive path forward. There was no one left to >> persuade! On at least this one thing, we were more united than any time in >> recent memory. >> >> 7 days later...half of that goodwill, natural fellowship, and brotherhood >> has been pissed away. >> >> The sale was already made, but the sellers kept selling and likely blew >> the deal. >> >> Sucks. >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, June 3, 2020, David Kellogg wrote: >> >>> I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd Precinct >>> (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely >>> proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). >>> >>> Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive >>> politics--but it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities >>> in the USA. I went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a >>> chain-link fence dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember >>> the column of black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, >>> because it was halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower >>> Hill. >>> >>> Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a >>> paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the >>> Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black >>> people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) >>> and financing fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops >>> how to use hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas >>> deployments of the US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, >>> sported a "white power" badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal >>> (but he also said pretty much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack >>> Obama). >>> >>> There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union >>> launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical >>> Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed >>> the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group >>> of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized >>> the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the >>> population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in >>> mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder >>> if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. >>> >>> (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, but >>> there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!T8YXKL9cPRZBbxjGZPVaW5t9AuOluQVSo-cP3-O8ULT-ag5LoVsyt0gkmyL2xOCsBu-cKw$ >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T8YXKL9cPRZBbxjGZPVaW5t9AuOluQVSo-cP3-O8ULT-ag5LoVsyt0gkmyL2xOA7h-3tjg$ >>> >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200604/f00a8d75/attachment.html From Peg.Griffin@att.net Thu Jun 4 08:45:10 2020 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin, Ph.D.) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 11:45:10 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000a01d63a87$2253c6c0$66fb5440$@att.net> Actually, David, I had no intent to say which group of people should do what in this crisis. So I don?t know what you agree to. What my anecdote addressed was Mike?s reference to 1937-39 and following. Given that federal troops (including active duty, fully armed with live ammunition and accompanied by armored vehicles) have been and are being moved into DC, it may be time to reconsider or at least rephrase a bit, Mike! Around here, it is awfully hard to consider ?premature? ones separate from the general body of anti-fascists. :) And we seem to be a test case or a bell weather or something like that. DC is regularly denied statehood. Various laws governing boundaries and functions, our size, and our ?limited? self-government, make it clear that we are a separate entity from the federal government and equal status partners with our surrounding states (Maryland and Virginia) on regional projects. Our per capita local taxes exceed the amount for city and state taxes combined for many places in the US. Our federal taxes also exceed the per capita amount for many states. Thus it is alarming that the regime running this country now invades us without consultation, notice or permission from our elected officials or our citizens as a body. We are the bell weather, the test case, the practice range? From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 11:06 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis I'm with Peg. Demands should be made by marchers in Washington and Minneapolis and not by university professors based in a foreign country. But eliminating "qualified immunity" for cops is a transitional demand--it is designed to show that even simple demands like breathing and not getting shot require national action at the level of Supreme Court. Boots off our necks...and troops off our streets! Any use of deadly force against protestors is not only disproportionate, it's unlawful. But Mayor Frey is being either naive or disingenuous when he says that the protests have been counter-productive. Without the protests, Derek Chauvin and his accomplices would still be on the street. Besides, keeping him off the street will require more than "law enforcement". As the Minnesota Attorney General said this morning, even second degree murder is going to be hard to prove. Cops have a history of "not knowing" that if you kneel on somebody's neck for nine minutes it tends to kill them dead. (Do you know, MIke, I just realized that it's June 4th today. The 31st anniversary of the Beijing massacre. You know I was in Guangzhou when it actually happened, but I spent the next month or so around trying to find Beijing friends who had disappeared and make sure they were alright Some of them were not. When I went to Muxidi in Beijing where the shooting started--it was very far from Tiananmen, you know--I could see that the "law enforcement" had shot out the upper windows of the apartment buildings--sometimes six stories up. And already it appears that a small business owner was hit by a live round fired by a cop in Louisville.) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!X-ggmDfQuG_SpTfKcJ1XRhYUCAPm9wSzErDNVKyCHIhVHntCM2C91iesMx1P0ySnuJb_xA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!X-ggmDfQuG_SpTfKcJ1XRhYUCAPm9wSzErDNVKyCHIhVHntCM2C91iesMx1P0yRQvTNFfw$ On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 10:05 AM mike cole > wrote: You might lay out the program of a second strike for the people of Minneapolis, David. It would deflect from stereotypes about what the range of demands can be. Of course Anthony was not throwing a sucker punch. But some ones are throwing sucker punches by using the peaceful rallies as a pretext for violence. At the moment (or last time I looked) analysts watching video are trying to figure out who is coming to protests with duffle bags full of bats. And everyone is scared witless by the fear of what Trump is doing with almost no opposition from the Republican Senate. It just all stinks of 1937-1939 to me. I'm a very premature antifacist by birth. With Global Warming and Covid-19 thrown in. mike On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:45 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony: When I was a kid, there was a street fighting tactic called "sucker punching". You waltz up to your sucker, you point vaguely over his shoulder--suckers are invariably male--and you say something like "Wow! Look at that!" "Watch out!" or "Hey--what's over there?". Then as the sucker turns his head, ya let him have it. I would characterize ALL looting as a kind of "sucker punching", a kind of whataboutism"--a flash-bang distraction, a way of changing the subject. I don't just mean what Biden, Cuomo, and this morning President Obama meant--that is, that looting is what allows Mr. Trump to bluster and bellow and get everybody to forget the murders of black people. He's gonna do that anyway, because it's all he knows how to do. I mean that looting doesn't address the police who murdered and who murder with impunity, doesn't redress the doctrine of "Qualified Immunity" brought in by the Supreme Court to protect killer cops, and doesn't eliminate the paramilitary "Police Union" in Minneapolis which has SUCCESSFULLY defended the killers of Philando Castile and Jamar Clark. Now I assume you are not trying to sucker punch me--you know I'm no sucker. I assume that the long, informative list of looted venues you have supplied (many names I recognize from my slot-car racing, milk-shake sipping, mispent youth) is not trying to change the topic of this thread. I think it is a genuine--nay, a well-appreciated--attempt, to show me the scope of the problem. But I suspect you are not really aware that what you have actually done is to make, even more eloquently than I could have done, the case for a second Minneapolis general strike. A second Minneapolis General Strike would offer special protection to businesses run by community members the way that no National Guard or military repression can. In the First Minneapolis General strike, strike committees were community members. A second Minneapolis General Strike would prevent the spread of Covid 19 in a way that "reopening" small businesses has imperilled. (Today the Swedes admitted that the Swedish model was a mistake) A second Minneapolis General Strike would render the curfew irrelevant. Only essential neighborhood businesses, not milk shake parlors and slot car race tracks, would be allowed to stay open. A second Minneapolis General Strike would allow a democratically elected strike committee to clearly distinguish between proportionate responses on the one hand and whataboutism and sucker-punching small business on the other. (Why can't Minnesotans rely on the democratically elected Democratic-Farmer-Labor city and state adminstration to do that? I'm glad you asked. For the same reason that Derek Chauvin had to be arrested by the state authorities and not by the Hennepin County cop shop--there is already a state of dual power in Minnesota, but it is led by Bob Kroll and his lawless, orderless "law-and-order" "Police Federation". Can we stop using the term "law enforcement" now?) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!X-ggmDfQuG_SpTfKcJ1XRhYUCAPm9wSzErDNVKyCHIhVHntCM2C91iesMx1P0ySnuJb_xA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!X-ggmDfQuG_SpTfKcJ1XRhYUCAPm9wSzErDNVKyCHIhVHntCM2C91iesMx1P0yRQvTNFfw$ On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:49 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of the proportionate response too: In Minneapolis ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property damage and looted. ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed by fire. ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water damage. ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and looting. ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed. ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property damage. ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage. ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: Property damage and looting. ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire damage. ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire damage. ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and looting. ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and looting. ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and looting. ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage and looting. ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. ? Tibet Store: Property damage. ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, graffiti and some interior damage. ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage. ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, extensive fire damage. ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire damage. ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and 29th: Fire, destroyed. ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property damage, looting. ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle smashed through windows. ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle stolen. ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, looting. ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft of ATM. ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. Seward Community Co-op, Facebook ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. Spencer Wallman ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and looting. ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed report of looting, property damage. ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. ? Bondesque: Property damage. In St. Paul ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property damage and looting. ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. ? Turf Club: Property damage. ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and looting. ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, looting. ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. ? To New York Midway: Property damage. ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage. ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire. ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, graffiti. ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. ? The Fixery, Highland: Property damage. ? Bole Ethiopian Restaurant: Fire ? Enterprise University Avenue: Fire. ? Goodwill: Property damage. In Twin Cities suburbs ? Target Maplewood: Property damage and looting. ? The Jewelers Saint Anthony: Property damage. ? GameStop Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting. ? Walmart Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting .? T-Mobile Store Brooklyn Center: Property damage. ? Family Dollar Brooklyn Center: Property damage. ? Walgreens 63rd and Brooklyn Blvd., Brooklyn Center: Property damage. ? Western Service Center, Apple Valley: Property, fire, and water damage. Or how about this? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DarrenJBeattie/status/1268003013425344514?s=19__;!!Mih3wA!X-ggmDfQuG_SpTfKcJ1XRhYUCAPm9wSzErDNVKyCHIhVHntCM2C91iesMx1P0yR_2TXwDw$ This sucks. Everyone in the country agreed on Day 1 -- prosecute the cops, mourn for the dead, seek a productive path forward. There was no one left to persuade! On at least this one thing, we were more united than any time in recent memory. 7 days later...half of that goodwill, natural fellowship, and brotherhood has been pissed away. The sale was already made, but the sellers kept selling and likely blew the deal. Sucks. Anthony On Wednesday, June 3, 2020, David Kellogg > wrote: I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd Precinct (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive politics--but it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities in the USA. I went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a chain-link fence dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember the column of black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, because it was halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower Hill. Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) and financing fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops how to use hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas deployments of the US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, sported a "white power" badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal (but he also said pretty much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack Obama). There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, but there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!X-ggmDfQuG_SpTfKcJ1XRhYUCAPm9wSzErDNVKyCHIhVHntCM2C91iesMx1P0ySnuJb_xA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!X-ggmDfQuG_SpTfKcJ1XRhYUCAPm9wSzErDNVKyCHIhVHntCM2C91iesMx1P0yRQvTNFfw$ -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!X-ggmDfQuG_SpTfKcJ1XRhYUCAPm9wSzErDNVKyCHIhVHntCM2C91iesMx1P0yTD_WLHiA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200604/fc28e0ee/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Jun 4 09:05:58 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:05:58 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <000a01d63a87$2253c6c0$66fb5440$@att.net> References: <000a01d63a87$2253c6c0$66fb5440$@att.net> Message-ID: Keep the covid away, Peg! The whole world is watching you. mike On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:45 AM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. wrote: > Actually, David, I had no intent to say which group of people should do > what in this crisis. So I don?t know what you agree to. > > What my anecdote addressed was Mike?s reference to 1937-39 and following. > > Given that federal troops (including active duty, fully armed with live > ammunition and accompanied by armored vehicles) have been and are being > moved into DC, it may be time to reconsider or at least rephrase a bit, > Mike! Around here, it is awfully hard to consider ?premature? ones > separate from the general body of anti-fascists. J > > > > And we seem to be a test case or a bell weather or something like that. > > DC is regularly denied statehood. Various laws governing boundaries and > functions, our size, and our ?limited? self-government, make it clear that > we are a separate entity from the federal government and equal status > partners with our surrounding states (Maryland and Virginia) on regional > projects. Our per capita local taxes exceed the amount for city and state > taxes combined for many places in the US. Our federal taxes also exceed > the per capita amount for many states. > > Thus it is alarming that the regime running this country now invades us > without consultation, notice or permission from our elected officials or > our citizens as a body. We are the bell weather, the test case, the > practice range? > > > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *David Kellogg > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 3, 2020 11:06 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > I'm with Peg. Demands should be made by marchers in Washington and > Minneapolis and not by university professors based in a foreign > country. But eliminating "qualified immunity" for cops is a transitional > demand--it is designed to show that even simple demands like breathing and > not getting shot require national action at the level of Supreme > Court. Boots off our necks...and troops off our streets! > > > > Any use of deadly force against protestors is not only disproportionate, > it's unlawful. But Mayor Frey is being either naive or disingenuous when he > says that the protests have been counter-productive. Without the protests, > Derek Chauvin and his accomplices would still be on the street. Besides, > keeping him off the street will require more than "law enforcement". As the > Minnesota Attorney General said this morning, even second degree murder is > going to be hard to prove. Cops have a history of "not knowing" that if you > kneel on somebody's neck for nine minutes it tends to kill them dead. > > > > (Do you know, MIke, I just realized that it's June 4th today. The 31st > anniversary of the Beijing massacre. You know I was in Guangzhou when it > actually happened, but I spent the next month or so around trying to find > Beijing friends who had disappeared and make sure they were alright Some of > them were not. When I went to Muxidi in Beijing where the shooting > started--it was very far from Tiananmen, you know--I could see that the > "law enforcement" had shot out the upper windows of the apartment > buildings--sometimes six stories up. And already it appears that a small > business owner was hit by a live round fired by a cop in Louisville.) > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Rf74qe6161dlGyzE_jP-QCe9kdhDJVi5L5MLA5NJM-g4DFnT8Wu43D_n-5h8a8tkDCw9Xg$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Rf74qe6161dlGyzE_jP-QCe9kdhDJVi5L5MLA5NJM-g4DFnT8Wu43D_n-5h8a8vPjgTQ5w$ > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 10:05 AM mike cole wrote: > > You might lay out the program of a second strike for the people of > Minneapolis, David. > > It would deflect from stereotypes about what the range of demands can be. > > > > Of course Anthony was not throwing a sucker punch. But some ones are > throwing sucker punches by using the > > peaceful rallies as a pretext for violence. At the moment (or last time I > looked) analysts watching > > video are trying to figure out who is coming to protests with duffle bags > full of bats. And everyone > > is scared witless by the fear of what Trump is doing with almost no > opposition from the Republican > > Senate. > > > > It just all stinks of 1937-1939 to me. > > I'm a very premature antifacist by birth. With Global Warming and Covid-19 > thrown in. > > > > mike > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:45 PM David Kellogg wrote: > > Anthony: > > > > When I was a kid, there was a street fighting tactic called "sucker > punching". You waltz up to your sucker, you point vaguely over his > shoulder--suckers are invariably male--and you say something like "Wow! > Look at that!" "Watch out!" or "Hey--what's over there?". Then as the > sucker turns his head, ya let him have it. > > > > I would characterize ALL looting as a kind of "sucker punching", a kind of > whataboutism"--a flash-bang distraction, a way of changing the subject. I > don't just mean what Biden, Cuomo, and this morning President Obama > meant--that is, that looting is what allows Mr. Trump to bluster and bellow > and get everybody to forget the murders of black people. He's gonna do that > anyway, because it's all he knows how to do. > > > > I mean that looting doesn't address the police who murdered and who murder > with impunity, doesn't redress the doctrine of "Qualified Immunity" brought > in by the Supreme Court to protect killer cops, and doesn't eliminate the > paramilitary "Police Union" in Minneapolis which has SUCCESSFULLY defended > the killers of Philando Castile and Jamar Clark. > > > > Now I assume you are not trying to sucker punch me--you know I'm no > sucker. I assume that the long, informative list of looted venues you have > supplied (many names I recognize from my slot-car racing, milk-shake > sipping, mispent youth) is not trying to change the topic of this thread. I > think it is a genuine--nay, a well-appreciated--attempt, to show me the > scope of the problem. > > > > But I suspect you are not really aware that what you have actually done is > to make, even more eloquently than I could have done, the case for a second > Minneapolis general strike. > > A second Minneapolis General Strike would offer special protection to > businesses run by community members the way that no National Guard or > military repression can. In the First Minneapolis General strike, strike > committees were community members. > > A second Minneapolis General Strike would prevent the spread of Covid 19 > in a way that "reopening" small businesses has imperilled. (Today the > Swedes admitted that the Swedish model was a mistake) > > A second Minneapolis General Strike would render the curfew irrelevant. > Only essential neighborhood businesses, not milk shake parlors and slot car > race tracks, would be allowed to stay open. > > A second Minneapolis General Strike would allow a democratically elected > strike committee to clearly distinguish between proportionate responses on > the one hand and whataboutism and sucker-punching small business on the > other. > > > > (Why can't Minnesotans rely on the democratically elected > Democratic-Farmer-Labor city and state adminstration to do that? I'm glad > you asked. For the same reason that Derek Chauvin had to be arrested by the > state authorities and not by the Hennepin County cop shop--there is already > a state of dual power in Minnesota, but it is led by Bob Kroll and > his lawless, orderless "law-and-order" "Police Federation". Can we stop > using the term "law enforcement" now?) > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Rf74qe6161dlGyzE_jP-QCe9kdhDJVi5L5MLA5NJM-g4DFnT8Wu43D_n-5h8a8tkDCw9Xg$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Rf74qe6161dlGyzE_jP-QCe9kdhDJVi5L5MLA5NJM-g4DFnT8Wu43D_n-5h8a8vPjgTQ5w$ > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:49 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly > characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of the > proportionate response too: > > > > In Minneapolis > > ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. > > > > ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property damage and > looted. > > > > ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. > > > > ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. > > > > ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. > > > > ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage > > > > ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water damage. > > > > ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. > > > > ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and looting. > > > > ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. > > > > ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. > > > > ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. > > > > ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. > > > > ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door > smashed > > > > ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed. > > > > ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. > > > > ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property damage. > > > > ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage > > > > ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage > > > > ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage > > > > ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage > > > > ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting > > > > ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage > > > > ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting > > > > ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire > > > > ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage > > > > ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting > > > > ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. > > > > ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. > > > > ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. > > > > ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. > > > > ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. > > > > ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. > > > > ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. > > > > ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. > > > > ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. > > > > ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage. > > > > ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. > > > > ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. > > > > ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: Property > damage and looting. > > > > ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. > > > > ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. > > > > ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. > > > > ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. > > > > ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. > > > > ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. > > > > ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. > > > > ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. > > > > ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. > > > > ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. > > > > ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. > > > > ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. > > > > ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage > > > > ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. > > > > ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and looting. > > > > ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and looting. > > > > ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. > > > > ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. > > > > ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. > > > > ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and looting. > > > > ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. > > > > ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. > > > > ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window > > > > ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. > > > > ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. > > > > ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. > > > > ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage and > looting. > > > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > > > ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. > > > > ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > > > ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > > > ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > > > ? Tibet Store: Property damage. > > > > ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage > > > > ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. > > > > ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. > > > > ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. > > > > ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. > > > > ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. > > > > ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. > > > > ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, graffiti and > some interior damage. > > > > ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. > > > > ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. > > > > ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. > > > > ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. > > > > ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. > > > > ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. > > > > ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > > > ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. > > > > ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage. > > > > ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. > > > > ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. > > > > ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. > > > > ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. > > > > ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. > > > > ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. > > > > ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. > > > > ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > > > ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > > > ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > > > ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. > > > > ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > > > ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > > > ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > > > ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire > > > > ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, extensive fire > damage. > > > > ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire damage. > > > > ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. > > > > ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. > > > > ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. > > > > ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and 29th: > Fire, destroyed. > > > > ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. > > > > ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. > > > > ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. > > > > ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. > > > > Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters > > > > ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. > > > > ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. > > > > ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property damage, > looting. > > > > ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle smashed > through windows. > > > > ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. > > > > ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. > > > > ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. > > > > ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti > > > > ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle stolen. > > > > ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. > > > > ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft of ATM. > > > > ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. > > > > Seward Community Co-op, Facebook > > > > ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. > > > > ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting > > > > ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. > > > > ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. > > > > ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > > > Spencer Wallman > > > > ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. > > > > ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. > > > > ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. > > > > ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and looting. > > > > ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. > > > > ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. > > > > ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting > > > > ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. > > > > ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. > > > > ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. > > > > ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. > > > > ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. > > > > ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. > > > > ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed report of > looting, property damage. > > > > ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. > > > > ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. > > > > ? Bondesque: Property damage. > > > > In St. Paul > > ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property damage > and looting. > > > > ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. > > > > ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. > > > > ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. > > > > ? Turf Club: Property damage. > > > > ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. > > > > ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. > > > > ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage > > > > ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and looting. > > > > ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. > > > > ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. > > > > ? To New York Midway: Property damage. > > > > ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. > > > > ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > > > ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > > > ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > > > ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage. > > > > ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire. > > > > ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage > > > > ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. > > > > ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. > > > > ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, graffiti. > > > > ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. > > > > ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. > > > > ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. > > > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. > > > > ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. > > > > ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. > > > > ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. > > > > ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. > > > > ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. > > > > ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. > > > > ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. > > > > ? The Fixery, Highland: Property damage. > > > > ? Bole Ethiopian Restaurant: Fire > > > > ? Enterprise University Avenue: Fire. > > > > ? Goodwill: Property damage. > > > > In Twin Cities suburbs > > ? Target Maplewood: Property damage and looting. > > > > ? The Jewelers Saint Anthony: Property damage. > > > > ? GameStop Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Walmart Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting > > > > .? T-Mobile Store Brooklyn Center: Property damage. > > > > ? Family Dollar Brooklyn Center: Property damage. > > > > ? Walgreens 63rd and Brooklyn Blvd., Brooklyn Center: Property damage. > > > > ? Western Service Center, Apple Valley: Property, fire, and water damage. > > > > Or how about this? > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DarrenJBeattie/status/1268003013425344514?s=19__;!!Mih3wA!Rf74qe6161dlGyzE_jP-QCe9kdhDJVi5L5MLA5NJM-g4DFnT8Wu43D_n-5h8a8uYBFuXHQ$ > > > > > This sucks. > > > > Everyone in the country agreed on Day 1 -- prosecute the cops, mourn for > the dead, seek a productive path forward. There was no one left to > persuade! On at least this one thing, we were more united than any time in > recent memory. > > > > 7 days later...half of that goodwill, natural fellowship, and brotherhood > has been pissed away. > > > > The sale was already made, but the sellers kept selling and likely blew > the deal. > > > > Sucks. > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, June 3, 2020, David Kellogg wrote: > > I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd Precinct > (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely > proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). > > > > Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive politics--but > it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities in the USA. I > went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a chain-link fence > dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember the column of > black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, because it was > halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower Hill. > > > > Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a > paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the > Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black > people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) > and financing fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops > how to use hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas > deployments of the US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, > sported a "white power" badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal > (but he also said pretty much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack > Obama). > > > > There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union > launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical > Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed > the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group > of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized > the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the > population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in > mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder > if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. > > > > (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, but > there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Rf74qe6161dlGyzE_jP-QCe9kdhDJVi5L5MLA5NJM-g4DFnT8Wu43D_n-5h8a8tkDCw9Xg$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Rf74qe6161dlGyzE_jP-QCe9kdhDJVi5L5MLA5NJM-g4DFnT8Wu43D_n-5h8a8vPjgTQ5w$ > > > > > > > -- > > *Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and > it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens.* > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Rf74qe6161dlGyzE_jP-QCe9kdhDJVi5L5MLA5NJM-g4DFnT8Wu43D_n-5h8a8t23qsghg$ > > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > > > > > -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Rf74qe6161dlGyzE_jP-QCe9kdhDJVi5L5MLA5NJM-g4DFnT8Wu43D_n-5h8a8t23qsghg$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200604/b261ff12/attachment.html From Peg.Griffin@att.net Thu Jun 4 10:36:57 2020 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin, Ph.D.) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 13:36:57 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <000a01d63a87$2253c6c0$66fb5440$@att.net> Message-ID: <002301d63a96$cdf92150$69eb63f0$@att.net> Yes, covid always gets the respect it demands! I have custody of seven face masks and dedicated disinfection bowls and endless supplies of little plastic baggies for them: a blue lamb, a pink rocking horse, a peacock feather pattern, a collection of cactuses, another of shoe-wear, a field of daisies, and one with green and white polka dots. Made (and replenished) by parents and kids. I have to report to the makers when the blue lamb tries to jump upside down on my face. There is a running discussion about whether the lamb is a prankster or an exhibitionist and various other interesting vocabulary words. The masks are used by me and carried for maskless folks who appear. I also tell fellow demonstrators about the Irish grandmother trick of touching a thumb to your nose then stretching your arm to measure a yard of fabric. Do it to the right and the left, the front and the back, and presto ? the 6 ft distance or a good excuse to get dizzy twirling. Someone plans to bring pool noodles taped together and with straps like the ones on shoulder sandwich board in case kids on the weekend days want play to help with the 6 ft distance. So far no one has signed on to guard Lenin?s tomb, though. Give people a week or so and the shoulder strap noodles will probably be another cottage industry ? no profit much loss but more to lose if we don?t act. Mayor and police chief mighty angry today about armed active military invasion, say DC had about 5,000 peaceful protesters and no arrests last night continuing the week?s trend on the DC part of the land; so they say the invasion should stop, go home, and never have begun anyhow. They are out-Rumpelstiltskining the Trumpelstiltskin. Meanwhile (to appropriate inappropriately from Robert Duvall?s character): Ah, the smell of Clorox on the mask! I guess everyone is learning to tolerate it if not actually love it? Love, Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 12:06 PM To: Peg Griffin, Ph.D. Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis Keep the covid away, Peg! The whole world is watching you. mike On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:45 AM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: Actually, David, I had no intent to say which group of people should do what in this crisis. So I don?t know what you agree to. What my anecdote addressed was Mike?s reference to 1937-39 and following. Given that federal troops (including active duty, fully armed with live ammunition and accompanied by armored vehicles) have been and are being moved into DC, it may be time to reconsider or at least rephrase a bit, Mike! Around here, it is awfully hard to consider ?premature? ones separate from the general body of anti-fascists. :) And we seem to be a test case or a bell weather or something like that. DC is regularly denied statehood. Various laws governing boundaries and functions, our size, and our ?limited? self-government, make it clear that we are a separate entity from the federal government and equal status partners with our surrounding states (Maryland and Virginia) on regional projects. Our per capita local taxes exceed the amount for city and state taxes combined for many places in the US. Our federal taxes also exceed the per capita amount for many states. Thus it is alarming that the regime running this country now invades us without consultation, notice or permission from our elected officials or our citizens as a body. We are the bell weather, the test case, the practice range? From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu ] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 11:06 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis I'm with Peg. Demands should be made by marchers in Washington and Minneapolis and not by university professors based in a foreign country. But eliminating "qualified immunity" for cops is a transitional demand--it is designed to show that even simple demands like breathing and not getting shot require national action at the level of Supreme Court. Boots off our necks..and troops off our streets! Any use of deadly force against protestors is not only disproportionate, it's unlawful. But Mayor Frey is being either naive or disingenuous when he says that the protests have been counter-productive. Without the protests, Derek Chauvin and his accomplices would still be on the street. Besides, keeping him off the street will require more than "law enforcement". As the Minnesota Attorney General said this morning, even second degree murder is going to be hard to prove. Cops have a history of "not knowing" that if you kneel on somebody's neck for nine minutes it tends to kill them dead. (Do you know, MIke, I just realized that it's June 4th today. The 31st anniversary of the Beijing massacre. You know I was in Guangzhou when it actually happened, but I spent the next month or so around trying to find Beijing friends who had disappeared and make sure they were alright Some of them were not. When I went to Muxidi in Beijing where the shooting started--it was very far from Tiananmen, you know--I could see that the "law enforcement" had shot out the upper windows of the apartment buildings--sometimes six stories up. And already it appears that a small business owner was hit by a live round fired by a cop in Louisville) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XvRp50AIwR0yx13bbXI4vAmQWhzOVnFFsmugkHe2xbFOPnAMe6F0gQJEkR2NTvHYjPmw8A$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XvRp50AIwR0yx13bbXI4vAmQWhzOVnFFsmugkHe2xbFOPnAMe6F0gQJEkR2NTvGJhJVsog$ On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 10:05 AM mike cole > wrote: You might lay out the program of a second strike for the people of Minneapolis, David. It would deflect from stereotypes about what the range of demands can be. Of course Anthony was not throwing a sucker punch. But some ones are throwing sucker punches by using the peaceful rallies as a pretext for violence. At the moment (or last time I looked) analysts watching video are trying to figure out who is coming to protests with duffle bags full of bats. And everyone is scared witless by the fear of what Trump is doing with almost no opposition from the Republican Senate. It just all stinks of 1937-1939 to me. I'm a very premature antifacist by birth. With Global Warming and Covid-19 thrown in. mike On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:45 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony: When I was a kid, there was a street fighting tactic called "sucker punching". You waltz up to your sucker, you point vaguely over his shoulder--suckers are invariably male--and you say something like "Wow! Look at that!" "Watch out!" or "Hey--what's over there?". Then as the sucker turns his head, ya let him have it. I would characterize ALL looting as a kind of "sucker punching", a kind of whataboutism"--a flash-bang distraction, a way of changing the subject. I don't just mean what Biden, Cuomo, and this morning President Obama meant--that is, that looting is what allows Mr. Trump to bluster and bellow and get everybody to forget the murders of black people. He's gonna do that anyway, because it's all he knows how to do. I mean that looting doesn't address the police who murdered and who murder with impunity, doesn't redress the doctrine of "Qualified Immunity" brought in by the Supreme Court to protect killer cops, and doesn't eliminate the paramilitary "Police Union" in Minneapolis which has SUCCESSFULLY defended the killers of Philando Castile and Jamar Clark. Now I assume you are not trying to sucker punch me--you know I'm no sucker. I assume that the long, informative list of looted venues you have supplied (many names I recognize from my slot-car racing, milk-shake sipping, mispent youth) is not trying to change the topic of this thread I think it is a genuine--nay, a well-appreciated--attempt, to show me the scope of the problem. But I suspect you are not really aware that what you have actually done is to make, even more eloquently than I could have done, the case for a second Minneapolis general strike. A second Minneapolis General Strike would offer special protection to businesses run by community members the way that no National Guard or military repression can. In the First Minneapolis General strike, strike committees were community members. A second Minneapolis General Strike would prevent the spread of Covid 19 in a way that "reopening" small businesses has imperilled. (Today the Swedes admitted that the Swedish model was a mistake) A second Minneapolis General Strike would render the curfew irrelevant. Only essential neighborhood businesses, not milk shake parlors and slot car race tracks, would be allowed to stay open. A second Minneapolis General Strike would allow a democratically elected strike committee to clearly distinguish between proportionate responses on the one hand and whataboutism and sucker-punching small business on the other. (Why can't Minnesotans rely on the democratically elected Democratic-Farmer-Labor city and state adminstration to do that? I'm glad you asked. For the same reason that Derek Chauvin had to be arrested by the state authorities and not by the Hennepin County cop shop--there is already a state of dual power in Minnesota, but it is led by Bob Kroll and his lawless, orderless "law-and-order" "Police Federation". Can we stop using the term "law enforcement" now?) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XvRp50AIwR0yx13bbXI4vAmQWhzOVnFFsmugkHe2xbFOPnAMe6F0gQJEkR2NTvHYjPmw8A$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XvRp50AIwR0yx13bbXI4vAmQWhzOVnFFsmugkHe2xbFOPnAMe6F0gQJEkR2NTvGJhJVsog$ On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:49 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of the proportionate response too: In Minneapolis ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property damage and looted. ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed by fire. ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water damage. ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and looting. ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed. ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property damage. ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage. ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: Property damage and looting. ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire damage. ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire damage. ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and looting. ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and looting. ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and looting. ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage and looting. ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. ? Tibet Store: Property damage. ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, graffiti and some interior damage. ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage. ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, extensive fire damage. ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire damage. ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and 29th: Fire, destroyed. ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property damage, looting. ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle smashed through windows. ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle stolen. ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, looting. ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft of ATM. ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. Seward Community Co-op, Facebook ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. Spencer Wallman ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and looting. ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed report of looting, property damage. ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. ? Bondesque: Property damage. In St. Paul ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property damage and looting. ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. ? Turf Club: Property damage. ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and looting. ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, looting. ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. ? To New York Midway: Property damage. ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage. ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, graffiti. ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. ? The Fixery, Highland: Property damage. ? Bole Ethiopian Restaurant: Fire ? Enterprise University Avenue: Fire. ? Goodwill: Property damage. In Twin Cities suburbs ? Target Maplewood: Property damage and looting. ? The Jewelers Saint Anthony: Property damage. ? GameStop Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting. ? Walmart Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting .? T-Mobile Store Brooklyn Center: Property damage. ? Family Dollar Brooklyn Center: Property damage. ? Walgreens 63rd and Brooklyn Blvd., Brooklyn Center: Property damage. ? Western Service Center, Apple Valley: Property, fire, and water damage. Or how about this? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DarrenJBeattie/status/1268003013425344514?s=19__;!!Mih3wA!XvRp50AIwR0yx13bbXI4vAmQWhzOVnFFsmugkHe2xbFOPnAMe6F0gQJEkR2NTvGJ_KkTbw$ This sucks. Everyone in the country agreed on Day 1 -- prosecute the cops, mourn for the dead, seek a productive path forward. There was no one left to persuade! On at least this one thing, we were more united than any time in recent memory. 7 days later...half of that goodwill, natural fellowship, and brotherhood has been pissed away. The sale was already made, but the sellers kept selling and likely blew the deal. Sucks. Anthony On Wednesday, June 3, 2020, David Kellogg > wrote: I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd Precinct (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive politics--but it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities in the USA. I went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a chain-link fence dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember the column of black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, because it was halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower Hill. Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) and financing fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops how to use hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas deployments of the US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, sported a "white power" badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal (but he also said pretty much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack Obama). There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, but there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XvRp50AIwR0yx13bbXI4vAmQWhzOVnFFsmugkHe2xbFOPnAMe6F0gQJEkR2NTvHYjPmw8A$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XvRp50AIwR0yx13bbXI4vAmQWhzOVnFFsmugkHe2xbFOPnAMe6F0gQJEkR2NTvGJhJVsog$ -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XvRp50AIwR0yx13bbXI4vAmQWhzOVnFFsmugkHe2xbFOPnAMe6F0gQJEkR2NTvF3xGoS1Q$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XvRp50AIwR0yx13bbXI4vAmQWhzOVnFFsmugkHe2xbFOPnAMe6F0gQJEkR2NTvF3xGoS1Q$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200604/39569a10/attachment.html From helenaworthen@gmail.com Thu Jun 4 12:38:08 2020 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 12:38:08 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> Time to clarify the differences among riot protest demonstration rally non-violent direct action I mention this because there are now specific events planned to be held in appropriate locations for different purposes. For example, you might bring your elementary school-age kids to a rally, or even a demonstration, but not to a non-violent direct action event. I am seeing demonstrations in my area planned to be safe for specific age groups - a call for a demonstration, for example, identified as ?student-led." Helena Worthen h elenaworthen@gmail.com > On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:04 PM, Peg Griffin, Ph.D. wrote: > > BTW, clearly the answer to the chant had to be: ?We are here in riot gear to get you to start a riot, dear.? > > > From: Peg Griffin, Ph.D. [mailto:Peg.Griffin@att.net ] > Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 10:57 PM > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > May, 3, 2020, DC, we march and chant, > ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? > > We stop for more testimonials about our dead and endangered. > We march and chant again: > ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? > > More and more armed active duty military move closer to us, now behind us. Edging in, making our group, two groups. > > Our young leaders know that move and know what we can do next? > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu ] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 9:00 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > You might lay out the program of a second strike for the people of Minneapolis, David. > It would deflect from stereotypes about what the range of demands can be. > > Of course Anthony was not throwing a sucker punch. But some ones are throwing sucker punches by using the > peaceful rallies as a pretext for violence. At the moment (or last time I looked) analysts watching > video are trying to figure out who is coming to protests with duffle bags full of bats. And everyone > is scared witless by the fear of what Trump is doing with almost no opposition from the Republican > Senate. > > It just all stinks of 1937-1939 to me. > I'm a very premature antifacist by birth. With Global Warming and Covid-19 thrown in. > > mike > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:45 PM David Kellogg > wrote: >> Anthony: >> >> When I was a kid, there was a street fighting tactic called "sucker punching". You waltz up to your sucker, you point vaguely over his shoulder--suckers are invariably male--and you say something like "Wow! Look at that!" "Watch out!" or "Hey--what's over there?". Then as the sucker turns his head, ya let him have it. >> >> I would characterize ALL looting as a kind of "sucker punching", a kind of whataboutism"--a flash-bang distraction, a way of changing the subject. I don't just mean what Biden, Cuomo, and this morning President Obama meant--that is, that looting is what allows Mr. Trump to bluster and bellow and get everybody to forget the murders of black people. He's gonna do that anyway, because it's all he knows how to do. >> >> I mean that looting doesn't address the police who murdered and who murder with impunity, doesn't redress the doctrine of "Qualified Immunity" brought in by the Supreme Court to protect killer cops, and doesn't eliminate the paramilitary "Police Union" in Minneapolis which has SUCCESSFULLY defended the killers of Philando Castile and Jamar Clark. >> >> Now I assume you are not trying to sucker punch me--you know I'm no sucker. I assume that the long, informative list of looted venues you have supplied (many names I recognize from my slot-car racing, milk-shake sipping, mispent youth) is not trying to change the topic of this thread. I think it is a genuine--nay, a well-appreciated--attempt, to show me the scope of the problem. >> >> But I suspect you are not really aware that what you have actually done is to make, even more eloquently than I could have done, the case for a second Minneapolis general strike. >> A second Minneapolis General Strike would offer special protection to businesses run by community members the way that no National Guard or military repression can. In the First Minneapolis General strike, strike committees were community members. >> A second Minneapolis General Strike would prevent the spread of Covid 19 in a way that "reopening" small businesses has imperilled. (Today the Swedes admitted that the Swedish model was a mistake) >> A second Minneapolis General Strike would render the curfew irrelevant. Only essential neighborhood businesses, not milk shake parlors and slot car race tracks, would be allowed to stay open. >> A second Minneapolis General Strike would allow a democratically elected strike committee to clearly distinguish between proportionate responses on the one hand and whataboutism and sucker-punching small business on the other. >> >> (Why can't Minnesotans rely on the democratically elected Democratic-Farmer-Labor city and state adminstration to do that? I'm glad you asked. For the same reason that Derek Chauvin had to be arrested by the state authorities and not by the Hennepin County cop shop--there is already a state of dual power in Minnesota, but it is led by Bob Kroll and his lawless, orderless "law-and-order" "Police Federation". Can we stop using the term "law enforcement" now?) >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VnFtEnuM3v1hU03-TgpEFTOayNsBe3-TfYvxmbues6xAUT-fc4Z-wYvFUQ_2QMr9ydOi4A$ >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VnFtEnuM3v1hU03-TgpEFTOayNsBe3-TfYvxmbues6xAUT-fc4Z-wYvFUQ_2QMqW15dgzw$ >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:49 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: >>> David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of the proportionate response too: >>> >>> In Minneapolis >>> ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property damage and looted. >>> >>> ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. >>> >>> ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water damage. >>> >>> ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed >>> >>> ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed. >>> >>> ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. >>> >>> ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property damage. >>> >>> ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage >>> >>> ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage >>> >>> ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage >>> >>> ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage >>> >>> ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting >>> >>> ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage >>> >>> ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting >>> >>> ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire >>> >>> ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage >>> >>> ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting >>> >>> ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. >>> >>> ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. >>> >>> ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. >>> >>> ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. >>> >>> ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. >>> >>> ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage >>> >>> ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. >>> >>> ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. >>> >>> ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage >>> >>> ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and looting. >>> >>> ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. >>> >>> ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. >>> >>> ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window >>> >>> ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. >>> >>> ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. >>> >>> ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Tibet Store: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. >>> >>> ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, graffiti and some interior damage. >>> >>> ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage >>> >>> ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. >>> >>> ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. >>> >>> ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire >>> >>> ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire damage. >>> >>> ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. >>> >>> ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. >>> >>> ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. >>> >>> ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and 29th: Fire, destroyed. >>> >>> ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. >>> >>> ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. >>> >>> ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. >>> >>> ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. >>> >>> Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters >>> >>> ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle smashed through windows. >>> >>> ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. >>> >>> ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti. >>> >>> ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle stolen. >>> >>> ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. >>> >>> ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft of ATM. >>> >>> ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> Seward Community Co-op, Facebook >>> >>> ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. >>> >>> ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> Spencer Wallman >>> >>> ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. >>> >>> ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. >>> >>> ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. >>> >>> ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting >>> >>> ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. >>> >>> ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. >>> >>> ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. >>> >>> ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. >>> >>> ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. >>> >>> ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed report of looting, property damage. >>> >>> ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. >>> >>> ? Bondesque: Property damage. >>> >>> In St. Paul >>> ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Turf Club: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. >>> >>> ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage >>> >>> ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. >>> >>> ? To New York Midway: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage >>> >>> ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire. >>> >>> ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage >>> >>> ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. >>> >>> ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. >>> >>> ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, graffiti. >>> >>> ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. >>> >>> ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. >>> >>> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. >>> >>> ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. >>> >>> ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. >>> >>> ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. >>> >>> ? The Fixery, Highland: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Bole Ethiopian Restaurant: Fire. >>> >>> ? Enterprise University Avenue: Fire. >>> >>> ? Goodwill: Property damage. >>> >>> In Twin Cities suburbs >>> ? Target Maplewood: Property damage and looting >>> >>> ? The Jewelers Saint Anthony: Property damage. >>> >>> ? GameStop Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Walmart Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting >>> >>> .? T-Mobile Store Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Family Dollar Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Walgreens 63rd and Brooklyn Blvd., Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Western Service Center, Apple Valley: Property, fire, and water damage. >>> >>> Or how about this? >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DarrenJBeattie/status/1268003013425344514?s=19__;!!Mih3wA!VnFtEnuM3v1hU03-TgpEFTOayNsBe3-TfYvxmbues6xAUT-fc4Z-wYvFUQ_2QMrEYeBMYg$ >>> >>> This sucks. >>> >>> Everyone in the country agreed on Day 1 -- prosecute the cops, mourn for the dead, seek a productive path forward. There was no one left to persuade! On at least this one thing, we were more united than any time in recent memory. >>> >>> 7 days later...half of that goodwill, natural fellowship, and brotherhood has been pissed away. >>> >>> The sale was already made, but the sellers kept selling and likely blew the deal. >>> >>> Sucks. >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, June 3, 2020, David Kellogg > wrote: >>>> I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd Precinct (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). >>>> >>>> Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive politics--but it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities in the USA. I went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a chain-link fence dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember the column of black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, because it was halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower Hill. >>>> >>>> Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) and financing fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops how to use hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas deployments of the US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, sported a "white power" badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal (but he also said pretty much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack Obama). >>>> >>>> There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. >>>> >>>> (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, but there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VnFtEnuM3v1hU03-TgpEFTOayNsBe3-TfYvxmbues6xAUT-fc4Z-wYvFUQ_2QMr9ydOi4A$ >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VnFtEnuM3v1hU03-TgpEFTOayNsBe3-TfYvxmbues6xAUT-fc4Z-wYvFUQ_2QMqW15dgzw$ >>>> > > > -- > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VnFtEnuM3v1hU03-TgpEFTOayNsBe3-TfYvxmbues6xAUT-fc4Z-wYvFUQ_2QMpAiaDi9w$ > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu . > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200604/55a103fa/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Jun 4 14:18:22 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 06:18:22 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> Message-ID: My sister says that there are already street committees in our neighborhood which control all the streets going into Prospect Park to make sure the local businesses are safe. During the worst of the looting, my nephew and neice were spending the night on our porch to keep our place safe. This happened in the first Minneapolis General Strike in 1934--it was necessary in order to ensure that local people got coal through the union and not through the Citizens Alliance (the employers). I agree with Peg's statement that the young people have their own young leaders and their young leaders have their own young demands. I would never say, the way that Andy does, that when you participate in someone else's struggle, you need to place yourself entirely under their direction; the whole job of a union organizer is to provide a national direction to people's local demands. It is the whole head and purpose of having shaggy grey locks around the young. But I don't think I should or need to be telling my nephew and niece what to do. Take a look at the long list of businesses that Anthony provided (thanks, Anthony--I forwarded it to the folks back home and it saved them some dangerous moving around). East Lake Street are ethnic businesses run by immigrants (there's even a "Tibet Shop"). You see names like "Bismillah" and "Nguyen". There are lots of rumors about outside agitators in Minneapolis. Even my DFL sister speaks darkly of "antifa", "Boogalo Boys" and the DFL city administration has spoken of white supremacist infiltrators. White supremacist infiltrators, or plainclothes cops, or just friendly gang members would certainly explain why "Bismillah" and "Nguyen" get targeted--you know that's not Antifa. As Helena says, some fine distinctions need to be made--that's why a movement does need outside organizers. I was an academic brat myself, but my hometown was a rough place (I had to laugh when I moved to Chicago and heard all those New Yorkers complain about coarse Chicago ways). There's still a lot of gang action that lives in a semi-symbiotic relationship with the police. There is at least one card-carying white supremacist on the loose at the head of the Police Federation: the former head has called for Bob Kroll to hand in his badge, and the city administration has tried to sack him several times ("Fat chance," my dad says). In April of 1989 autonomous unions set up by workers all over China came out in support of the strikes and demonstrations in Beijing. In response, Deng Xiaoping had an incendiary article published anonymously in the military mouthpiece Jiefang Junbao warning that the whole country was descending into "dongluan" (turmoil or chaos). Everybody knew that was a threat. The student leaders then forbade the demonstrates to anyone who didn't have a student ID, and this meant that the all-important strike element of the movement died out. I think that at that moment a massacre and a defeat became inevitable. (Did you see that the teachers in Minneapolis booted the police out of Minneapolis public schools?) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VOTIfyeZ5BHd898EWOGqc-GKqmHUAwQlN4W0zkB_Veu68khPFNb_glHnhjZGNrUNWT9bZg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VOTIfyeZ5BHd898EWOGqc-GKqmHUAwQlN4W0zkB_Veu68khPFNb_glHnhjZGNrXTz5Mp-g$ On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 4:40 AM Helena Worthen wrote: > Time to clarify the differences among > > riot > protest > demonstration > rally > non-violent direct action > > I mention this because there are now specific events planned to be held in > appropriate locations for different purposes. For example, you might bring > your elementary school-age kids to a rally, or even a demonstration, but > not to a non-violent direct action event. I am seeing demonstrations in my > area planned to be safe for specific age groups - a call for a > demonstration, for example, identified as ?student-led." > > > Helena Worthen > h > > elenaworthen@gmail.com > > > > > > > > On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:04 PM, Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: > > BTW, clearly the answer to the chant had to be: ?We are here in riot gear > to get you to start a riot, dear.? > > > *From:* Peg Griffin, Ph.D. [mailto:Peg.Griffin@att.net > ] > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 3, 2020 10:57 PM > *To:* 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > May, 3, 2020, DC, we march and chant, > ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? > > We stop for more testimonials about our dead and endangered. > We march and chant again: > ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? > > More and more armed active duty military move closer to us, now behind us. > Edging in, making our group, two groups. > > Our young leaders know that move and know what we can do next? > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [ > mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu ] *On > Behalf Of *mike cole > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 3, 2020 9:00 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > You might lay out the program of a second strike for the people of > Minneapolis, David. > It would deflect from stereotypes about what the range of demands can be. > > Of course Anthony was not throwing a sucker punch. But some ones are > throwing sucker punches by using the > peaceful rallies as a pretext for violence. At the moment (or last time I > looked) analysts watching > video are trying to figure out who is coming to protests with duffle bags > full of bats. And everyone > is scared witless by the fear of what Trump is doing with almost no > opposition from the Republican > Senate. > > It just all stinks of 1937-1939 to me. > I'm a very premature antifacist by birth. With Global Warming and Covid-19 > thrown in. > > mike > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:45 PM David Kellogg wrote: > > Anthony: > > When I was a kid, there was a street fighting tactic called "sucker > punching". You waltz up to your sucker, you point vaguely over his > shoulder--suckers are invariably male--and you say something like "Wow! > Look at that!" "Watch out!" or "Hey--what's over there?". Then as the > sucker turns his head, ya let him have it. > > I would characterize ALL looting as a kind of "sucker punching", a kind of > whataboutism"--a flash-bang distraction, a way of changing the subject. I > don't just mean what Biden, Cuomo, and this morning President Obama > meant--that is, that looting is what allows Mr. Trump to bluster and bellow > and get everybody to forget the murders of black people. He's gonna do that > anyway, because it's all he knows how to do. > > I mean that looting doesn't address the police who murdered and who murder > with impunity, doesn't redress the doctrine of "Qualified Immunity" brought > in by the Supreme Court to protect killer cops, and doesn't eliminate the > paramilitary "Police Union" in Minneapolis which has SUCCESSFULLY defended > the killers of Philando Castile and Jamar Clark. > > Now I assume you are not trying to sucker punch me--you know I'm no > sucker. I assume that the long, informative list of looted venues you have > supplied (many names I recognize from my slot-car racing, milk-shake > sipping, mispent youth) is not trying to change the topic of this thread. I > think it is a genuine--nay, a well-appreciated--attempt, to show me the > scope of the problem. > > But I suspect you are not really aware that what you have actually done is > to make, even more eloquently than I could have done, the case for a second > Minneapolis general strike. > A second Minneapolis General Strike would offer special protection to > businesses run by community members the way that no National Guard or > military repression can. In the First Minneapolis General strike, strike > committees were community members. > A second Minneapolis General Strike would prevent the spread of Covid 19 > in a way that "reopening" small businesses has imperilled. (Today the > Swedes admitted that the Swedish model was a mistake) > A second Minneapolis General Strike would render the curfew irrelevant. > Only essential neighborhood businesses, not milk shake parlors and slot car > race tracks, would be allowed to stay open. > A second Minneapolis General Strike would allow a democratically elected > strike committee to clearly distinguish between proportionate responses on > the one hand and whataboutism and sucker-punching small business on the > other. > > (Why can't Minnesotans rely on the democratically elected > Democratic-Farmer-Labor city and state adminstration to do that? I'm glad > you asked. For the same reason that Derek Chauvin had to be arrested by the > state authorities and not by the Hennepin County cop shop--there is already > a state of dual power in Minnesota, but it is led by Bob Kroll and > his lawless, orderless "law-and-order" "Police Federation". Can we stop > using the term "law enforcement" now?) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VOTIfyeZ5BHd898EWOGqc-GKqmHUAwQlN4W0zkB_Veu68khPFNb_glHnhjZGNrUNWT9bZg$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VOTIfyeZ5BHd898EWOGqc-GKqmHUAwQlN4W0zkB_Veu68khPFNb_glHnhjZGNrXTz5Mp-g$ > > > > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:49 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly > characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of the > proportionate response too: > > In Minneapolis > ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. > > ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. > > ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property damage and > looted. > > ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. > > ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. > > ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. > > ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage. > > ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water damage. > > ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. > > ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and looting. > > ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. > > ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. > > ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. > > ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. > > ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door > smashed > > ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed. > > ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. > > ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property damage. > > ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage > > ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage > > ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage > > ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage > > ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting > > ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage > > ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting > > ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire > > ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage > > ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting > > ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. > > ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. > > ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. > > ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. > > ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage > > ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. > > ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. > > ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: Property > damage and looting. > > ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. > > ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. > > ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. > > ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. > > ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. > > ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. > > ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. > > ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. > > ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. > > ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. > > ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. > > ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage > > ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. > > ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. > > ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire damage. > > ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire damage. > > ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and looting. > > ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and looting. > > ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. > > ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. > > ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. > > ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and looting. > > ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. > > ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. > > ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window > > ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. > > ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. > > ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. > > ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage and > looting. > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. > > ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Tibet Store: Property damage. > > ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. > > ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. > > ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. > > ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. > > ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. > > ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, graffiti and > some interior damage. > > ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. > > ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. > > ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. > > ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. > > ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. > > ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. > > ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. > > ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. > > ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage > > ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. > > ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. > > ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. > > ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. > > ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. > > ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. > > ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. > > ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. > > ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire > > ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. > > ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, extensive fire > damage. > > ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire damage. > > ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. > > ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. > > ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. > > ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and 29th: > Fire, destroyed. > > ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. > > ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. > > ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. > > ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. > > ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. > > Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters > > ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. > > ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. > > ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property damage, > looting. > > ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle smashed > through windows. > > ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. > > ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. > > ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. > > ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti. > > ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle stolen. > > ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. > > ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, looting. > > ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. > > ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft of ATM. > > ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. > > Seward Community Co-op, Facebook > > ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. > > ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting. > > ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. > > ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. > > ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. > > ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. > > ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > Spencer Wallman > > ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. > > ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. > > ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. > > ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and looting. > > ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. > > ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. > > ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting > > ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. > > ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. > > ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. > > ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. > > ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. > > ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. > > ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed report of > looting, property damage. > > ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. > > ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. > > ? Bondesque: Property damage. > > In St. Paul > ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property damage > and looting. > > ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. > > ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. > > ? Turf Club: Property damage. > > ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. > > ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. > > ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. > > ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage > > ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and looting. > > ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. > > ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. > > ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. > > ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, looting. > > ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. > > ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. > > ? To New York Midway: Property damage. > > ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. > > ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. > > ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage > > ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire. > > ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. > > ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage > > ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. > > ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. > > ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. > > ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, graffiti. > > ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. > > ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. > > ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. > > ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. > > ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. > > ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. > > ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. > > ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. > > ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. > > ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. > > ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. > > ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. > >
supremacist provocations, with or without the help of "White Power" Bob > Kroll, would certainly explain why "Bismillah" and "Nguyen" were targeted; > you know that's not "Antifa". > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200605/bb2b9165/attachment.html From robsub@ariadne.org.uk Thu Jun 4 14:31:21 2020 From: robsub@ariadne.org.uk (robsub@ariadne.org.uk) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 22:31:21 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> Message-ID: What is DFL? (Round here it is a pejorative "Down From London".) Rob On 2020-06-04 22:18, David Kellogg wrote: > My sister says that there are already street committees in our > neighborhood which control all the streets going into Prospect Park to > make sure the local businesses are safe. During the worst of the > looting, my nephew and neice were spending the night on our porch to > keep our place safe. This happened in the first Minneapolis General > Strike in 1934--it was necessary in order to ensure that local people > got coal through the union and not through the Citizens Alliance (the > employers). > > I agree with Peg's statement that the young people have their own > young leaders and their young leaders have their own young demands. I > would never say, the way that Andy does, that when you participate in > someone else's struggle, you need to place yourself entirely under > their direction; the whole job of a union organizer is to provide a > national direction to people's local demands. It is the whole head and > purpose of having shaggy grey locks around the young. But I don't > think I should or need to be telling my nephew and niece what to do. > > Take a look at the long list of businesses that Anthony provided > (thanks, Anthony--I forwarded it to the folks back home and it saved > them some dangerous moving around). East Lake Street are ethnic > businesses run by immigrants (there's even a "Tibet Shop"). You see > names like "Bismillah" and "Nguyen". There are lots of rumors about > outside agitators in Minneapolis. Even my DFL sister speaks darkly of > "antifa", "Boogalo Boys" and the DFL city administration has spoken of > white supremacist infiltrators. White supremacist infiltrators, or > plainclothes cops, or just friendly gang members would certainly > explain why "Bismillah" and "Nguyen" get targeted--you know that's not > Antifa. > > As Helena says, some fine distinctions need to be made--that's why a > movement does need outside organizers. I was an academic brat myself, > but my hometown was a rough place (I had to laugh when I moved to > Chicago and heard all those New Yorkers complain about coarse Chicago > ways). There's still a lot of gang action that lives in a > semi-symbiotic relationship with the police. There is at least one > card-carying white supremacist on the loose at the head of the Police > Federation: the former head has called for Bob Kroll to hand in his > badge, and the city administration has tried to sack him several times > ("Fat chance," my dad says). > > In April of 1989 autonomous unions set up by workers all over China > came out in support of the strikes and demonstrations in Beijing. In > response, Deng Xiaoping had an incendiary article published > anonymously in the military mouthpiece Jiefang Junbao warning that the > whole country was descending into "dongluan" (turmoil or chaos). > Everybody knew that was a threat. The student leaders then forbade the > demonstrates to anyone who didn't have a student ID, and this meant > that the all-important strike element of the movement died out. I > think that at that moment a massacre and a defeat became inevitable. > > (Did you see that the teachers in Minneapolis booted the police out of > Minneapolis public schools?) > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!X-HkT6CQTwm8ZZX6iS0ZkSAigebh2Me_O0tCCTiUnyq3-krXdHtnShX_el0jChS-gw5Lew$ [3] > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: _L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological > Works_ _Volume One: Foundations of Pedology_" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!X-HkT6CQTwm8ZZX6iS0ZkSAigebh2Me_O0tCCTiUnyq3-krXdHtnShX_el0jChR8D5_Biw$ > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 4:40 AM Helena Worthen > wrote: > >> Time to clarify the differences among >> >> riot >> protest >> demonstration >> rally >> non-violent direct action >> >> I mention this because there are now specific events planned to be >> held in appropriate locations for different purposes. For example, >> you might bring your elementary school-age kids to a rally, or even >> a demonstration, but not to a non-violent direct action event. I am >> seeing demonstrations in my area planned to be safe for specific age >> groups - a call for a demonstration, for example, identified as >> ?student-led." >> >> Helena Worthen >> h [1]elenaworthen@gmail.com >> >> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:04 PM, Peg Griffin, Ph.D. >> wrote: >> >> BTW, clearly the answer to the chant had to be: ?We are here in >> riot gear to get you to start a riot, dear.? >> >> FROM: Peg Griffin, Ph.D. [mailto:Peg.Griffin@att.net] >> SENT: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 10:57 PM >> TO: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' >> SUBJECT: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >> >> May, 3, 2020, DC, we march and chant, >> ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? >> >> We stop for more testimonials about our dead and endangered. >> We march and chant again: >> ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? >> >> More and more armed active duty military move closer to us, now >> behind us. Edging in, making our group, two groups. >> >> Our young leaders know that move and know what we can do next? >> >> FROM: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] ON BEHALF OF mike cole >> SENT: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 9:00 PM >> TO: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> SUBJECT: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >> >> You might lay out the program of a second strike for the people of >> Minneapolis, David. >> >> It would deflect from stereotypes about what the range of demands >> can be. >> >> Of course Anthony was not throwing a sucker punch. But some ones are >> throwing sucker punches by using the >> >> peaceful rallies as a pretext for violence. At the moment (or last >> time I looked) analysts watching >> >> video are trying to figure out who is coming to protests with duffle >> bags full of bats. And everyone >> >> is scared witless by the fear of what Trump is doing with almost no >> opposition from the Republican >> >> Senate. >> >> It just all stinks of 1937-1939 to me. >> >> I'm a very premature antifacist by birth. With Global Warming and >> Covid-19 thrown in. >> >> mike >> >> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:45 PM David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >> Anthony: >> >> When I was a kid, there was a street fighting tactic called "sucker >> punching". You waltz up to your sucker, you point vaguely over his >> shoulder--suckers are invariably male--and you say something like >> "Wow! Look at that!" "Watch out!" or "Hey--what's over there?". Then >> as the sucker turns his head, ya let him have it. >> >> I would characterize ALL looting as a kind of "sucker punching", a >> kind of whataboutism"--a flash-bang distraction, a way of changing >> the subject. I don't just mean what Biden, Cuomo, and this morning >> President Obama meant--that is, that looting is what allows Mr. >> Trump to bluster and bellow and get everybody to forget the murders >> of black people. He's gonna do that anyway, because it's all he >> knows how to do. >> >> I mean that looting doesn't address the police who murdered and who >> murder with impunity, doesn't redress the doctrine of "Qualified >> Immunity" brought in by the Supreme Court to protect killer cops, >> and doesn't eliminate the paramilitary "Police Union" in Minneapolis >> which has SUCCESSFULLY defended the killers of Philando Castile and >> Jamar Clark. >> >> Now I assume you are not trying to sucker punch me--you know I'm no >> sucker. I assume that the long, informative list of looted venues >> you have supplied (many names I recognize from my slot-car racing, >> milk-shake sipping, mispent youth) is not trying to change the topic >> of this thread. I think it is a genuine--nay, a >> well-appreciated--attempt, to show me the scope of the problem. >> >> But I suspect you are not really aware that what you have actually >> done is to make, even more eloquently than I could have done, the >> case for a second Minneapolis general strike. >> >> A second Minneapolis General Strike would offer special protection >> to businesses run by community members the way that no National >> Guard or military repression can. In the First Minneapolis General >> strike, strike committees were community members. >> >> A second Minneapolis General Strike would prevent the spread of >> Covid 19 in a way that "reopening" small businesses has imperilled. >> (Today the Swedes admitted that the Swedish model was a mistake) >> >> A second Minneapolis General Strike would render the curfew >> irrelevant. Only essential neighborhood businesses, not milk shake >> parlors and slot car race tracks, would be allowed to stay open. >> >> A second Minneapolis General Strike would allow a democratically >> elected strike committee to clearly distinguish between >> proportionate responses on the one hand and whataboutism and >> sucker-punching small business on the other. >> >> (Why can't Minnesotans rely on the democratically elected >> Democratic-Farmer-Labor city and state adminstration to do that? I'm >> glad you asked. For the same reason that Derek Chauvin had to be >> arrested by the state authorities and not by the Hennepin County cop >> shop--there is already a state of dual power in Minnesota, but it is >> led by Bob Kroll and his lawless, orderless "law-and-order" "Police >> Federation". Can we stop using the term "law enforcement" now?) >> >> David Kellogg >> >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!X-HkT6CQTwm8ZZX6iS0ZkSAigebh2Me_O0tCCTiUnyq3-krXdHtnShX_el0jChS-gw5Lew$ [2] >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: _L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >> Works_ _Volume One: Foundations of Pedology_" >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!X-HkT6CQTwm8ZZX6iS0ZkSAigebh2Me_O0tCCTiUnyq3-krXdHtnShX_el0jChR8D5_Biw$ >> >> On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:49 AM Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly >> characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of >> the proportionate response too: >> >> In Minneapolis >> >> ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. >> >> ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property >> damage and looted. >> >> ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. >> >> ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed >> by fire. >> >> ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. >> >> ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. >> >> ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage. >> >> ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water >> damage. >> >> ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. >> >> ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and >> looting. >> >> ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. >> >> ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. >> >> ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. >> >> ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. >> >> ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass >> door smashed >> >> ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door >> smashed. >> >> ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. >> >> ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property >> damage. >> >> ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage >> >> ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage >> >> ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage >> >> ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage >> >> ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting >> >> ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage >> >> ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting >> >> ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire >> >> ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage >> >> ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting >> >> ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. >> >> ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. >> >> ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage >> >> ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. >> >> ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: >> Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. >> >> ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. >> >> ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. >> >> ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. >> >> ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. >> >> ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage >> >> ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. >> >> ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire >> damage. >> >> ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire >> damage. >> >> ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and >> looting. >> >> ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and >> looting. >> >> ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. >> >> ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. >> >> ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and >> looting. >> >> ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. >> >> ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. >> >> ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window >> >> ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. >> >> ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. >> >> ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. >> >> ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage >> and looting. >> >> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. >> >> ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Tibet Store: Property damage. >> >> ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. >> >> ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. >> >> ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. >> >> ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. >> >> ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, >> graffiti and some interior damage. >> >> ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. >> >> ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. >> >> ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. >> >> ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >> >> ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. >> >> ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. >> >> ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >> >> ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage >> >> ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. >> >> ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. >> >> ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. >> >> ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. >> >> ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. >> >> ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. >> >> ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. >> >> ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire >> >> ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, >> extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire >> damage. >> >> ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. >> >> ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. >> >> ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. >> >> ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and >> 29th: Fire, destroyed. >> >> ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. >> >> ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. >> >> ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. >> >> ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. >> >> Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters >> >> ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. >> >> ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property >> damage, looting. >> >> ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle >> smashed through windows. >> >> ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. >> >> ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. >> >> ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. >> >> ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti. >> >> ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle >> stolen. >> >> ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, >> looting. >> >> ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. >> >> ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft >> of ATM. >> >> ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. >> >> Seward Community Co-op, Facebook >> >> ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. >> >> ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. >> >> ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. >> >> ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> Spencer Wallman >> >> ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. >> >> ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. >> >> ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. >> >> ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and >> looting. >> >> ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. >> >> ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. >> >> ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting >> >> ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. >> >> ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. >> >> ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. >> >> ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. >> >> ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. >> >> ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. >> >> ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed >> report of looting, property damage. >> >> ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. >> >> ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. >> >> ? Bondesque: Property damage. >> >> In St. Paul >> >> ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property >> damage and looting. >> >> ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. >> >> ? Turf Club: Property damage. >> >> ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. >> >> ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. >> >> ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage >> >> ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and >> looting. >> >> ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, >> looting. >> >> ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. >> >> ? To New York Midway: Property damage. >> >> ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. >> >> ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage >> >> ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire. >> >> ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage >> >> ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. >> >> ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. >> >> ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, >> graffiti. >> >> ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. >> >> ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. >> >> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. >> >> ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. >> >> ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. >> >> ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. >> >> ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. >> >> ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. >> >> ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. >> >>
> provocations, with or without the help of "White Power" Bob Kroll, >> would certainly explain why "Bismillah" and "Nguyen" were targeted; >> you know that's not "Antifa". > > > Links: > ------ > [1] > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://helenaworthen.wordpress.com__;!!Mih3wA!VnFtEnuM3v1hU03-TgpEFTOayNsBe3-TfYvxmbues6xAUT-fc4Z-wYvFUQ_2QMol20To2A$ > [2] > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Th7buQ6HWVNff3UOmUy2ACjyX-EmTwdN3dZnZncahDsbHeNI5SgBAYHZZ-xFD4z1PYP8og$ > [3] > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VOTIfyeZ5BHd898EWOGqc-GKqmHUAwQlN4W0zkB_Veu68khPFNb_glHnhjZGNrUNWT9bZg$ From colinghdixon@gmail.com Thu Jun 4 13:28:53 2020 From: colinghdixon@gmail.com (Colin Dixon) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 13:28:53 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think it's also time to recognize that clarifying differences can serve to divide, and to legitimize and endorse some voices, experiences and expressions, at the expense of others. That is a reminder i hear from organizers in oakland, many of whom are rejecting - on fact and principle - characterizations of outsiders versus locals. Also important are reminders that many outsiders were or would be locals, if not for the policies and economics that enforce dispossession and instability of communities of color. In other words, "f**k your zip code" where 'your' refers to the police, media, who use zipcode to understand voice and message. Peggy's rhyming response to "why the riot gear" shows that the labels of 'violent versus non-violent,' 'rally versus protest,' are often not very useful when applied to protestors and organizers, but are better applied to the interaction between protestors, authorities, other players, and various means arrayed by both (or many) sides - not to mention the histories and physical structures of the landscapes. This way of understanding definitions in terms of interactions, not intentions or some other seemingly inherent quality, seems like a good place for CHAT's tools. That said, there are of course differences in intentions, in tone, and in message, of public actions. I like knowing when i can bring my kids. As Helena mentions, some of these definitions are already coded, eg "student-led", and understood by those who have been involved with organizing for a while. Clarity in these definitions certainly makes it easier for more people (current outsiders) to understand what they are supporting and what risks might be, and then to join where they feel safe and confident. But again, it raises a question of who these definitions are for, how they might be used in ways other than intended, and what assumptions underpin them. Who do the definitions protect and create safe space for? Who do they leave vulnerable? Lurking, listening and appreciating, - Colin On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 12:40 PM Helena Worthen wrote: > > Time to clarify the differences among > > riot > protest > demonstration > rally > non-violent direct action > > I mention this because there are now specific events planned to be held in appropriate locations for different purposes. For example, you might bring your elementary school-age kids to a rally, or even a demonstration, but not to a non-violent direct action event. I am seeing demonstrations in my area planned to be safe for specific age groups - a call for a demonstration, for example, identified as ?student-led." > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > > > > > > > On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:04 PM, Peg Griffin, Ph.D. wrote: > > BTW, clearly the answer to the chant had to be: ?We are here in riot gear to get you to start a riot, dear.? > > > From: Peg Griffin, Ph.D. [mailto:Peg.Griffin@att.net] > Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 10:57 PM > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > May, 3, 2020, DC, we march and chant, > ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? > > We stop for more testimonials about our dead and endangered. > We march and chant again: > ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? > > More and more armed active duty military move closer to us, now behind us. Edging in, making our group, two groups. > > Our young leaders know that move and know what we can do next? > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 9:00 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > You might lay out the program of a second strike for the people of Minneapolis, David. > It would deflect from stereotypes about what the range of demands can be. > > Of course Anthony was not throwing a sucker punch. But some ones are throwing sucker punches by using the > peaceful rallies as a pretext for violence. At the moment (or last time I looked) analysts watching > video are trying to figure out who is coming to protests with duffle bags full of bats. And everyone > is scared witless by the fear of what Trump is doing with almost no opposition from the Republican > Senate. > > It just all stinks of 1937-1939 to me. > I'm a very premature antifacist by birth. With Global Warming and Covid-19 thrown in. > > mike > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:45 PM David Kellogg wrote: > > Anthony: > > When I was a kid, there was a street fighting tactic called "sucker punching". You waltz up to your sucker, you point vaguely over his shoulder--suckers are invariably male--and you say something like "Wow! Look at that!" "Watch out!" or "Hey--what's over there?". Then as the sucker turns his head, ya let him have it. > > I would characterize ALL looting as a kind of "sucker punching", a kind of whataboutism"--a flash-bang distraction, a way of changing the subject. I don't just mean what Biden, Cuomo, and this morning President Obama meant--that is, that looting is what allows Mr. Trump to bluster and bellow and get everybody to forget the murders of black people. He's gonna do that anyway, because it's all he knows how to do. > > I mean that looting doesn't address the police who murdered and who murder with impunity, doesn't redress the doctrine of "Qualified Immunity" brought in by the Supreme Court to protect killer cops, and doesn't eliminate the paramilitary "Police Union" in Minneapolis which has SUCCESSFULLY defended the killers of Philando Castile and Jamar Clark. > > Now I assume you are not trying to sucker punch me--you know I'm no sucker. I assume that the long, informative list of looted venues you have supplied (many names I recognize from my slot-car racing, milk-shake sipping, mispent youth) is not trying to change the topic of this thread. I think it is a genuine--nay, a well-appreciated--attempt, to show me the scope of the problem. > > But I suspect you are not really aware that what you have actually done is to make, even more eloquently than I could have done, the case for a second Minneapolis general strike. > A second Minneapolis General Strike would offer special protection to businesses run by community members the way that no National Guard or military repression can. In the First Minneapolis General strike, strike committees were community members. > A second Minneapolis General Strike would prevent the spread of Covid 19 in a way that "reopening" small businesses has imperilled. (Today the Swedes admitted that the Swedish model was a mistake) > A second Minneapolis General Strike would render the curfew irrelevant. Only essential neighborhood businesses, not milk shake parlors and slot car race tracks, would be allowed to stay open. > A second Minneapolis General Strike would allow a democratically elected strike committee to clearly distinguish between proportionate responses on the one hand and whataboutism and sucker-punching small business on the other. > > (Why can't Minnesotans rely on the democratically elected Democratic-Farmer-Labor city and state adminstration to do that? I'm glad you asked. For the same reason that Derek Chauvin had to be arrested by the state authorities and not by the Hennepin County cop shop--there is already a state of dual power in Minnesota, but it is led by Bob Kroll and his lawless, orderless "law-and-order" "Police Federation". Can we stop using the term "law enforcement" now?) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIuS37WM0Q$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIvy0hnDqA$ > > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:49 AM Anthony Barra wrote: > > David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of the proportionate response too: > > In Minneapolis > ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. > > ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. > > ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property damage and looted. > > ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. > > ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. > > ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. > > ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage. > > ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water damage. > > ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. > > ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and looting. > > ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. > > ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. > > ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. > > ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. > > ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed > > ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed. > > ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. > > ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property damage. > > ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage > > ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage > > ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage > > ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage > > ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting > > ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage > > ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting > > ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire > > ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage > > ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting > > ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. > > ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. > > ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. > > ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. > > ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage > > ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. > > ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. > > ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: Property damage and looting. > > ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. > > ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. > > ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. > > ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. > > ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. > > ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. > > ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. > > ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. > > ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. > > ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. > > ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. > > ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage > > ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. > > ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. > > ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire damage. > > ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire damage. > > ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and looting. > > ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and looting. > > ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. > > ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. > > ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. > > ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and looting. > > ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. > > ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. > > ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window > > ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. > > ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. > > ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. > > ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage and looting. > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. > > ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Tibet Store: Property damage. > > ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. > > ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. > > ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. > > ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. > > ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. > > ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, graffiti and some interior damage. > > ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. > > ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. > > ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. > > ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. > > ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. > > ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. > > ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. > > ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. > > ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage > > ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. > > ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. > > ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. > > ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. > > ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. > > ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. > > ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. > > ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. > > ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire > > ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. > > ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, extensive fire damage. > > ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire damage. > > ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. > > ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. > > ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. > > ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and 29th: Fire, destroyed. > > ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. > > ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. > > ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. > > ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. > > ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. > > Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters > > ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. > > ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. > > ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property damage, looting. > > ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle smashed through windows. > > ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. > > ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. > > ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. > > ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti. > > ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle stolen. > > ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. > > ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, looting. > > ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. > > ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft of ATM. > > ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. > > Seward Community Co-op, Facebook > > ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. > > ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting. > > ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. > > ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. > > ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. > > ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. > > ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > Spencer Wallman > > ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. > > ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. > > ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. > > ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and looting. > > ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. > > ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. > > ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting > > ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. > > ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. > > ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. > > ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. > > ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. > > ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. > > ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed report of looting, property damage. > > ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. > > ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. > > ? Bondesque: Property damage. > > In St. Paul > ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property damage and looting. > > ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. > > ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. > > ? Turf Club: Property damage. > > ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. > > ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. > > ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. > > ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage > > ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and looting. > > ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. > > ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. > > ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. > > ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, looting. > > ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. > > ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. > > ? To New York Midway: Property damage. > > ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. > > ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. > > ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage > > ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire. > > ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. > > ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage > > ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. > > ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. > > ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. > > ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, graffiti. > > ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. > > ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. > > ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. > > ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. > > ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. > > ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. > > ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. > > ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. > > ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. > > ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. > > ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. > > ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. > > ? The Fixery, Highland: Property damage. > > ? Bole Ethiopian Restaurant: Fire. > > ? Enterprise University Avenue: Fire. > > ? Goodwill: Property damage. > > In Twin Cities suburbs > ? Target Maplewood: Property damage and looting > > ? The Jewelers Saint Anthony: Property damage. > > ? GameStop Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting. > > ? Walmart Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting > > .? T-Mobile Store Brooklyn Center: Property damage. > > ? Family Dollar Brooklyn Center: Property damage. > > ? Walgreens 63rd and Brooklyn Blvd., Brooklyn Center: Property damage. > > ? Western Service Center, Apple Valley: Property, fire, and water damage. > > Or how about this? > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DarrenJBeattie/status/1268003013425344514?s=19__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIve8BKSBw$ > > This sucks. > > Everyone in the country agreed on Day 1 -- prosecute the cops, mourn for the dead, seek a productive path forward. There was no one left to persuade! On at least this one thing, we were more united than any time in recent memory. > > 7 days later...half of that goodwill, natural fellowship, and brotherhood has been pissed away. > > The sale was already made, but the sellers kept selling and likely blew the deal. > > Sucks. > > Anthony > > > > > On Wednesday, June 3, 2020, David Kellogg wrote: > > I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd Precinct (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). > > Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive politics--but it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities in the USA. I went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a chain-link fence dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember the column of black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, because it was halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower Hill. > > Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) and financing fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops how to use hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas deployments of the US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, sported a "white power" badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal (but he also said pretty much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack Obama). > > There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. > > (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, but there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIuS37WM0Q$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIvy0hnDqA$ > > > > -- > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIupXWRG1g$ > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Jun 4 17:44:54 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:44:54 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> Message-ID: A lot of wise words, Colin. Thanks mike On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 5:27 PM Colin Dixon wrote: > I think it's also time to recognize that clarifying differences can > serve to divide, and to legitimize and endorse some voices, > experiences and expressions, at the expense of others. > That is a reminder i hear from organizers in oakland, many of whom are > rejecting - on fact and principle - characterizations of outsiders > versus locals. Also important are reminders that many outsiders were > or would be locals, if not for the policies and economics that enforce > dispossession and instability of communities of color. In other words, > "f**k your zip code" where 'your' refers to the police, media, who use > zipcode to understand voice and message. > > Peggy's rhyming response to "why the riot gear" shows that the labels > of 'violent versus non-violent,' 'rally versus protest,' are often not > very useful when applied to protestors and organizers, but are better > applied to the interaction between protestors, authorities, other > players, and various means arrayed by both (or many) sides - not to > mention the histories and physical structures of the landscapes. This > way of understanding definitions in terms of interactions, not > intentions or some other seemingly inherent quality, seems like a good > place for CHAT's tools. > > That said, there are of course differences in intentions, in tone, and > in message, of public actions. I like knowing when i can bring my > kids. As Helena mentions, some of these definitions are already coded, > eg "student-led", and understood by those who have been involved with > organizing for a while. Clarity in these definitions certainly makes > it easier for more people (current outsiders) to understand what they > are supporting and what risks might be, and then to join where they > feel safe and confident. But again, it raises a question of who these > definitions are for, how they might be used in ways other than > intended, and what assumptions underpin them. Who do the definitions > protect and create safe space for? Who do they leave vulnerable? > > Lurking, listening and appreciating, > - Colin > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 12:40 PM Helena Worthen > wrote: > > > > Time to clarify the differences among > > > > riot > > protest > > demonstration > > rally > > non-violent direct action > > > > I mention this because there are now specific events planned to be held > in appropriate locations for different purposes. For example, you might > bring your elementary school-age kids to a rally, or even a demonstration, > but not to a non-violent direct action event. I am seeing demonstrations > in my area planned to be safe for specific age groups - a call for a > demonstration, for example, identified as ?student-led." > > > > > > Helena Worthen > > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:04 PM, Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: > > > > BTW, clearly the answer to the chant had to be: ?We are here in riot > gear to get you to start a riot, dear.? > > > > > > From: Peg Griffin, Ph.D. [mailto:Peg.Griffin@att.net] > > Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 10:57 PM > > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > May, 3, 2020, DC, we march and chant, > > ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? > > > > We stop for more testimonials about our dead and endangered. > > We march and chant again: > > ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? > > > > More and more armed active duty military move closer to us, now behind > us. Edging in, making our group, two groups. > > > > Our young leaders know that move and know what we can do next? > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > > Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 9:00 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > You might lay out the program of a second strike for the people of > Minneapolis, David. > > It would deflect from stereotypes about what the range of demands can be. > > > > Of course Anthony was not throwing a sucker punch. But some ones are > throwing sucker punches by using the > > peaceful rallies as a pretext for violence. At the moment (or last time > I looked) analysts watching > > video are trying to figure out who is coming to protests with duffle > bags full of bats. And everyone > > is scared witless by the fear of what Trump is doing with almost no > opposition from the Republican > > Senate. > > > > It just all stinks of 1937-1939 to me. > > I'm a very premature antifacist by birth. With Global Warming and > Covid-19 thrown in. > > > > mike > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:45 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > > > > Anthony: > > > > When I was a kid, there was a street fighting tactic called "sucker > punching". You waltz up to your sucker, you point vaguely over his > shoulder--suckers are invariably male--and you say something like "Wow! > Look at that!" "Watch out!" or "Hey--what's over there?". Then as the > sucker turns his head, ya let him have it. > > > > I would characterize ALL looting as a kind of "sucker punching", a kind > of whataboutism"--a flash-bang distraction, a way of changing the subject. > I don't just mean what Biden, Cuomo, and this morning President Obama > meant--that is, that looting is what allows Mr. Trump to bluster and bellow > and get everybody to forget the murders of black people. He's gonna do that > anyway, because it's all he knows how to do. > > > > I mean that looting doesn't address the police who murdered and who > murder with impunity, doesn't redress the doctrine of "Qualified Immunity" > brought in by the Supreme Court to protect killer cops, and doesn't > eliminate the paramilitary "Police Union" in Minneapolis which has > SUCCESSFULLY defended the killers of Philando Castile and Jamar Clark. > > > > Now I assume you are not trying to sucker punch me--you know I'm no > sucker. I assume that the long, informative list of looted venues you have > supplied (many names I recognize from my slot-car racing, milk-shake > sipping, mispent youth) is not trying to change the topic of this thread. I > think it is a genuine--nay, a well-appreciated--attempt, to show me the > scope of the problem. > > > > But I suspect you are not really aware that what you have actually done > is to make, even more eloquently than I could have done, the case for a > second Minneapolis general strike. > > A second Minneapolis General Strike would offer special protection to > businesses run by community members the way that no National Guard or > military repression can. In the First Minneapolis General strike, strike > committees were community members. > > A second Minneapolis General Strike would prevent the spread of Covid 19 > in a way that "reopening" small businesses has imperilled. (Today the > Swedes admitted that the Swedish model was a mistake) > > A second Minneapolis General Strike would render the curfew irrelevant. > Only essential neighborhood businesses, not milk shake parlors and slot car > race tracks, would be allowed to stay open. > > A second Minneapolis General Strike would allow a democratically > elected strike committee to clearly distinguish between proportionate > responses on the one hand and whataboutism and sucker-punching small > business on the other. > > > > (Why can't Minnesotans rely on the democratically elected > Democratic-Farmer-Labor city and state adminstration to do that? I'm glad > you asked. For the same reason that Derek Chauvin had to be arrested by the > state authorities and not by the Hennepin County cop shop--there is already > a state of dual power in Minnesota, but it is led by Bob Kroll and his > lawless, orderless "law-and-order" "Police Federation". Can we stop using > the term "law enforcement" now?) > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIuS37WM0Q$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIvy0hnDqA$ > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:49 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > > > David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly > characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of the > proportionate response too: > > > > In Minneapolis > > ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. > > > > ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property damage > and looted. > > > > ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. > > > > ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed by > fire. > > > > ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. > > > > ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. > > > > ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage. > > > > ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water damage. > > > > ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. > > > > ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and looting. > > > > ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. > > > > ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. > > > > ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. > > > > ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. > > > > ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door > smashed > > > > ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed. > > > > ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. > > > > ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property damage. > > > > ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage > > > > ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage > > > > ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage > > > > ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage > > > > ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting > > > > ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage > > > > ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting > > > > ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire > > > > ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage > > > > ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting > > > > ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. > > > > ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. > > > > ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. > > > > ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. > > > > ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. > > > > ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. > > > > ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. > > > > ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. > > > > ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. > > > > ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage > > > > ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. > > > > ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. > > > > ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: > Property damage and looting. > > > > ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. > > > > ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. > > > > ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. > > > > ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. > > > > ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. > > > > ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. > > > > ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. > > > > ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. > > > > ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. > > > > ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. > > > > ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. > > > > ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. > > > > ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage > > > > ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. > > > > ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and looting. > > > > ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and looting. > > > > ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. > > > > ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. > > > > ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. > > > > ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and looting. > > > > ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. > > > > ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. > > > > ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window > > > > ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. > > > > ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. > > > > ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. > > > > ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage and > looting. > > > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > > > ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. > > > > ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > > > ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > > > ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > > > ? Tibet Store: Property damage. > > > > ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > > > ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. > > > > ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. > > > > ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. > > > > ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. > > > > ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. > > > > ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. > > > > ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, graffiti > and some interior damage. > > > > ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. > > > > ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. > > > > ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. > > > > ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. > > > > ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. > > > > ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. > > > > ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > > > ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. > > > > ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage > > > > ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. > > > > ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. > > > > ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. > > > > ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. > > > > ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. > > > > ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. > > > > ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. > > > > ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > > > ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > > > ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > > > ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. > > > > ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > > > ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > > > ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > > > ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire > > > > ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, extensive fire > damage. > > > > ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire damage. > > > > ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. > > > > ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. > > > > ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. > > > > ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and 29th: > Fire, destroyed. > > > > ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. > > > > ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. > > > > ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. > > > > ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. > > > > Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters > > > > ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. > > > > ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. > > > > ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property damage, > looting. > > > > ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle smashed > through windows. > > > > ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. > > > > ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. > > > > ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. > > > > ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti. > > > > ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle stolen. > > > > ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. > > > > ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft of > ATM. > > > > ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. > > > > Seward Community Co-op, Facebook > > > > ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. > > > > ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. > > > > ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. > > > > ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > > > Spencer Wallman > > > > ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. > > > > ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. > > > > ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. > > > > ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and looting. > > > > ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. > > > > ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. > > > > ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. > > > > ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting > > > > ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. > > > > ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. > > > > ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. > > > > ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. > > > > ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. > > > > ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. > > > > ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed report > of looting, property damage. > > > > ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. > > > > ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. > > > > ? Bondesque: Property damage. > > > > In St. Paul > > ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property > damage and looting. > > > > ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. > > > > ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. > > > > ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. > > > > ? Turf Club: Property damage. > > > > ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. > > > > ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. > > > > ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage > > > > ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and looting. > > > > ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. > > > > ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. > > > > ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. > > > > ? To New York Midway: Property damage. > > > > ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. > > > > ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. > > > > ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > > > ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > > > ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > > > ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage > > > > ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire. > > > > ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage > > > > ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. > > > > ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. > > > > ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, graffiti. > > > > ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. > > > > ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. > > > > ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. > > > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. > > > > ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. > > > > ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. > > > > ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. > > > > ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. > > > > ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. > > > > ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. > > > > ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. > > > > ? The Fixery, Highland: Property damage. > > > > ? Bole Ethiopian Restaurant: Fire. > > > > ? Enterprise University Avenue: Fire. > > > > ? Goodwill: Property damage. > > > > In Twin Cities suburbs > > ? Target Maplewood: Property damage and looting > > > > ? The Jewelers Saint Anthony: Property damage. > > > > ? GameStop Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting. > > > > ? Walmart Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting > > > > .? T-Mobile Store Brooklyn Center: Property damage. > > > > ? Family Dollar Brooklyn Center: Property damage. > > > > ? Walgreens 63rd and Brooklyn Blvd., Brooklyn Center: Property damage. > > > > ? Western Service Center, Apple Valley: Property, fire, and water damage. > > > > Or how about this? > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DarrenJBeattie/status/1268003013425344514?s=19__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIve8BKSBw$ > > > > This sucks. > > > > Everyone in the country agreed on Day 1 -- prosecute the cops, mourn for > the dead, seek a productive path forward. There was no one left to > persuade! On at least this one thing, we were more united than any time in > recent memory. > > > > 7 days later...half of that goodwill, natural fellowship, and > brotherhood has been pissed away. > > > > The sale was already made, but the sellers kept selling and likely blew > the deal. > > > > Sucks. > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, June 3, 2020, David Kellogg wrote: > > > > I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd Precinct > (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely > proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). > > > > Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive > politics--but it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities > in the USA. I went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a > chain-link fence dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember > the column of black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, > because it was halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower > Hill. > > > > Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a > paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the > Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black > people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) and financing > fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops how to use > hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas deployments of the > US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, sported a "white power" > badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal (but he also said pretty > much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack Obama). > > > > There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union > launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical > Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed > the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group > of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized > the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the > population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in > mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder > if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. > > > > (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, but > there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIuS37WM0Q$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIvy0hnDqA$ > > > > > > > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and > it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Cultural Praxis Website: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIupXWRG1g$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > > > -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Vz2B2YXdhZSA2qoSAKOIPgh_2q4JYJSyS1Ob8lLM31QGAeqE5MzKv4w_pcsBaQVyvZ_fZw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200604/39737658/attachment-0001.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Thu Jun 4 17:47:36 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 18:47:36 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> Colin, Your post brings to my mind the articles I am receiving daily from Academia on embodied cognition, more broadly: embodied, enactive, extended and embedded. What you say about the context: "histories and physical structures of the landscapes? profiles the cultural and historical complexity of countervailing projects as they collide on the street. This may be an intellectualized take on what?s going on, but it helps me draw value from the articles from Academia. I am waiting for a spate of articles that apply the 4Es to the big picture. That would be truly cross-disciplinary. Henry > On Jun 4, 2020, at 2:28 PM, Colin Dixon wrote: > > I think it's also time to recognize that clarifying differences can > serve to divide, and to legitimize and endorse some voices, > experiences and expressions, at the expense of others. > That is a reminder i hear from organizers in oakland, many of whom are > rejecting - on fact and principle - characterizations of outsiders > versus locals. Also important are reminders that many outsiders were > or would be locals, if not for the policies and economics that enforce > dispossession and instability of communities of color. In other words, > "f**k your zip code" where 'your' refers to the police, media, who use > zipcode to understand voice and message. > > Peggy's rhyming response to "why the riot gear" shows that the labels > of 'violent versus non-violent,' 'rally versus protest,' are often not > very useful when applied to protestors and organizers, but are better > applied to the interaction between protestors, authorities, other > players, and various means arrayed by both (or many) sides - not to > mention the histories and physical structures of the landscapes. This > way of understanding definitions in terms of interactions, not > intentions or some other seemingly inherent quality, seems like a good > place for CHAT's tools. > > That said, there are of course differences in intentions, in tone, and > in message, of public actions. I like knowing when i can bring my > kids. As Helena mentions, some of these definitions are already coded, > eg "student-led", and understood by those who have been involved with > organizing for a while. Clarity in these definitions certainly makes > it easier for more people (current outsiders) to understand what they > are supporting and what risks might be, and then to join where they > feel safe and confident. But again, it raises a question of who these > definitions are for, how they might be used in ways other than > intended, and what assumptions underpin them. Who do the definitions > protect and create safe space for? Who do they leave vulnerable? > > Lurking, listening and appreciating, > - Colin > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 12:40 PM Helena Worthen wrote: >> >> Time to clarify the differences among >> >> riot >> protest >> demonstration >> rally >> non-violent direct action >> >> I mention this because there are now specific events planned to be held in appropriate locations for different purposes. For example, you might bring your elementary school-age kids to a rally, or even a demonstration, but not to a non-violent direct action event. I am seeing demonstrations in my area planned to be safe for specific age groups - a call for a demonstration, for example, identified as ?student-led." >> >> >> Helena Worthen >> helenaworthen@gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:04 PM, Peg Griffin, Ph.D. wrote: >> >> BTW, clearly the answer to the chant had to be: ?We are here in riot gear to get you to start a riot, dear.? >> >> >> From: Peg Griffin, Ph.D. [mailto:Peg.Griffin@att.net] >> Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 10:57 PM >> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' >> Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >> >> May, 3, 2020, DC, we march and chant, >> ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? >> >> We stop for more testimonials about our dead and endangered. >> We march and chant again: >> ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? >> >> More and more armed active duty military move closer to us, now behind us. Edging in, making our group, two groups. >> >> Our young leaders know that move and know what we can do next? >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >> Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 9:00 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >> >> You might lay out the program of a second strike for the people of Minneapolis, David. >> It would deflect from stereotypes about what the range of demands can be. >> >> Of course Anthony was not throwing a sucker punch. But some ones are throwing sucker punches by using the >> peaceful rallies as a pretext for violence. At the moment (or last time I looked) analysts watching >> video are trying to figure out who is coming to protests with duffle bags full of bats. And everyone >> is scared witless by the fear of what Trump is doing with almost no opposition from the Republican >> Senate. >> >> It just all stinks of 1937-1939 to me. >> I'm a very premature antifacist by birth. With Global Warming and Covid-19 thrown in. >> >> mike >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:45 PM David Kellogg wrote: >> >> Anthony: >> >> When I was a kid, there was a street fighting tactic called "sucker punching". You waltz up to your sucker, you point vaguely over his shoulder--suckers are invariably male--and you say something like "Wow! Look at that!" "Watch out!" or "Hey--what's over there?". Then as the sucker turns his head, ya let him have it. >> >> I would characterize ALL looting as a kind of "sucker punching", a kind of whataboutism"--a flash-bang distraction, a way of changing the subject. I don't just mean what Biden, Cuomo, and this morning President Obama meant--that is, that looting is what allows Mr. Trump to bluster and bellow and get everybody to forget the murders of black people. He's gonna do that anyway, because it's all he knows how to do. >> >> I mean that looting doesn't address the police who murdered and who murder with impunity, doesn't redress the doctrine of "Qualified Immunity" brought in by the Supreme Court to protect killer cops, and doesn't eliminate the paramilitary "Police Union" in Minneapolis which has SUCCESSFULLY defended the killers of Philando Castile and Jamar Clark. >> >> Now I assume you are not trying to sucker punch me--you know I'm no sucker. I assume that the long, informative list of looted venues you have supplied (many names I recognize from my slot-car racing, milk-shake sipping, mispent youth) is not trying to change the topic of this thread. I think it is a genuine--nay, a well-appreciated--attempt, to show me the scope of the problem. >> >> But I suspect you are not really aware that what you have actually done is to make, even more eloquently than I could have done, the case for a second Minneapolis general strike. >> A second Minneapolis General Strike would offer special protection to businesses run by community members the way that no National Guard or military repression can. In the First Minneapolis General strike, strike committees were community members. >> A second Minneapolis General Strike would prevent the spread of Covid 19 in a way that "reopening" small businesses has imperilled. (Today the Swedes admitted that the Swedish model was a mistake) >> A second Minneapolis General Strike would render the curfew irrelevant. Only essential neighborhood businesses, not milk shake parlors and slot car race tracks, would be allowed to stay open. >> A second Minneapolis General Strike would allow a democratically elected strike committee to clearly distinguish between proportionate responses on the one hand and whataboutism and sucker-punching small business on the other. >> >> (Why can't Minnesotans rely on the democratically elected Democratic-Farmer-Labor city and state adminstration to do that? I'm glad you asked. For the same reason that Derek Chauvin had to be arrested by the state authorities and not by the Hennepin County cop shop--there is already a state of dual power in Minnesota, but it is led by Bob Kroll and his lawless, orderless "law-and-order" "Police Federation". Can we stop using the term "law enforcement" now?) >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIuS37WM0Q$ >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIvy0hnDqA$ >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:49 AM Anthony Barra wrote: >> >> David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of the proportionate response too: >> >> In Minneapolis >> ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. >> >> ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property damage and looted. >> >> ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. >> >> ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. >> >> ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. >> >> ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage. >> >> ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water damage. >> >> ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. >> >> ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and looting. >> >> ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. >> >> ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. >> >> ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. >> >> ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. >> >> ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed >> >> ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed. >> >> ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. >> >> ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property damage. >> >> ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage >> >> ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage >> >> ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage >> >> ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage >> >> ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting >> >> ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage >> >> ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting >> >> ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire >> >> ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage >> >> ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting >> >> ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. >> >> ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. >> >> ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage >> >> ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. >> >> ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. >> >> ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. >> >> ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. >> >> ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. >> >> ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. >> >> ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage >> >> ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. >> >> ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and looting. >> >> ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and looting. >> >> ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. >> >> ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. >> >> ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. >> >> ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. >> >> ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window >> >> ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. >> >> ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. >> >> ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. >> >> ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. >> >> ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Tibet Store: Property damage. >> >> ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. >> >> ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. >> >> ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. >> >> ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. >> >> ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, graffiti and some interior damage. >> >> ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. >> >> ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. >> >> ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. >> >> ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >> >> ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. >> >> ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. >> >> ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >> >> ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage >> >> ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. >> >> ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. >> >> ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. >> >> ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. >> >> ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. >> >> ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. >> >> ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. >> >> ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire >> >> ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire damage. >> >> ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. >> >> ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. >> >> ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. >> >> ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and 29th: Fire, destroyed. >> >> ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. >> >> ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. >> >> ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. >> >> ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. >> >> Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters >> >> ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. >> >> ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle smashed through windows. >> >> ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. >> >> ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. >> >> ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. >> >> ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti. >> >> ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle stolen. >> >> ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. >> >> ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft of ATM. >> >> ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. >> >> Seward Community Co-op, Facebook >> >> ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. >> >> ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. >> >> ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. >> >> ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> Spencer Wallman >> >> ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. >> >> ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. >> >> ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. >> >> ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. >> >> ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. >> >> ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting >> >> ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. >> >> ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. >> >> ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. >> >> ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. >> >> ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. >> >> ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. >> >> ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed report of looting, property damage. >> >> ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. >> >> ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. >> >> ? Bondesque: Property damage. >> >> In St. Paul >> ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property damage and looting. >> >> ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. >> >> ? Turf Club: Property damage. >> >> ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. >> >> ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. >> >> ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage >> >> ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. >> >> ? To New York Midway: Property damage. >> >> ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. >> >> ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage >> >> ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire. >> >> ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage >> >> ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. >> >> ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. >> >> ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, graffiti. >> >> ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. >> >> ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. >> >> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. >> >> ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. >> >> ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. >> >> ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. >> >> ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. >> >> ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. >> >> ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. >> >> ? The Fixery, Highland: Property damage. >> >> ? Bole Ethiopian Restaurant: Fire. >> >> ? Enterprise University Avenue: Fire. >> >> ? Goodwill: Property damage. >> >> In Twin Cities suburbs >> ? Target Maplewood: Property damage and looting >> >> ? The Jewelers Saint Anthony: Property damage. >> >> ? GameStop Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Walmart Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting >> >> .? T-Mobile Store Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >> >> ? Family Dollar Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >> >> ? Walgreens 63rd and Brooklyn Blvd., Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >> >> ? Western Service Center, Apple Valley: Property, fire, and water damage. >> >> Or how about this? >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DarrenJBeattie/status/1268003013425344514?s=19__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIve8BKSBw$ >> >> This sucks. >> >> Everyone in the country agreed on Day 1 -- prosecute the cops, mourn for the dead, seek a productive path forward. There was no one left to persuade! On at least this one thing, we were more united than any time in recent memory. >> >> 7 days later...half of that goodwill, natural fellowship, and brotherhood has been pissed away. >> >> The sale was already made, but the sellers kept selling and likely blew the deal. >> >> Sucks. >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, June 3, 2020, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd Precinct (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). >> >> Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive politics--but it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities in the USA. I went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a chain-link fence dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember the column of black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, because it was halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower Hill. >> >> Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) and financing fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops how to use hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas deployments of the US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, sported a "white power" badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal (but he also said pretty much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack Obama). >> >> There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. >> >> (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, but there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIuS37WM0Q$ >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIvy0hnDqA$ >> >> >> >> -- >> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. >> --------------------------------------------------- >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIupXWRG1g$ >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> > From rbeach@umn.edu Thu Jun 4 18:08:07 2020 From: rbeach@umn.edu (Richard Beach) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 20:08:07 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> Message-ID: As someone who?s lived in Minneapolis since the early 1970s, I?d like to build on David?s post by providing some historical context. When blacks moved from Gary and Chicago to Milwaukee and Minneapolis in the 1960s and 1970s, they encountered little or no economic support in terms of jobs or housing due to redlining/discrimination. Since that time, blacks in Minneapolis have experienced little or no improvement, as reported by Minnesota Public Radio https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tinyurl.com/y84yp3rs__;!!Mih3wA!TiOdybzIiReuBom0wvIR5HBtEsreAAgmH2dveJi0iWM7kCacGOn4TcS-dIfSDacSUIu00A$ Minneapolis has the second highest income gap between blacks and whites in the country (interestingly enough from an historical perspective, Milwaukee has the highest). The median black family in the Twin Cities area earns $38,178 a year; less than half of the median white family income of $84,459 a year. In 2016, the Twin Cities area black unemployment rate was more than three times the white unemployment rate. According to the most recent census data, the black poverty rate in the Twin Cities area was 25.4 percent, which is over four times the white poverty rate of 5.9 percent. The Twin Cities area black poverty rate is significantly higher than the national black poverty rate of 22 percent, while the white poverty rate is significantly lower than the national one of 9 percent. While Minneapolis has the highest percentage of single-family home ownership of any city in the country with about three-quarters of white families in the Twin Cities own homes, only about one-quarter of black families do. The area had a long history where "racial covenants" made it hard for blacks to become homebuyers and live in white neighborhoods. In 2019, the incarceration rate of blacks in the Twin Cities area was 11 times that of whites. The state of Minnesota has one of the nation's worst education achievement gaps between blacks and whites. In 2019, it ranked 50th when it comes to racial disparities in high school graduation rates. While the Minneapolis Public Schools are relatively good, schools in North Minneapolis located near black neighborhoods have experienced enrollment declines since, leading the Minneapolis School Board to pass a new plan to bolster enrollments/support for those schools, but budget cuts due to the pandemic may undermine some of that. The University of Minnesota, Minneapolis Park Board, and Minneapolis Pubic Schools have all cut ties with the Minneapolis Police Department. The question arises a from a CHAT perspective on objects/motives driving systems, as well as an ?expansive learning? perspective, what new objects/motives will arise in the future from the ashes of burned out Minneapolis neighborhoods that will undo this history of racist neglect in a relatively short time period, particularly when the whole public financial system faces decline? Richard Beach, Professor Emeritus of English Education, University of Minnesota rbeach@umn.edu Websites: Digital writing , Media?literacy , Teaching literature , Identity-focused ELA Teaching , Common Core?State Standards , Apps for literacy?learning , Teaching?about?climate change , Teaching language as action > On Jun 4, 2020, at 7:47 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > Colin, > Your post brings to my mind the articles I am receiving daily from Academia on embodied cognition, more broadly: embodied, enactive, extended and embedded. What you say about the context: "histories and physical structures of the landscapes? profiles the cultural and historical complexity of countervailing projects as they collide on the street. This may be an intellectualized take on what?s going on, but it helps me draw value from the articles from Academia. I am waiting for a spate of articles that apply the 4Es to the big picture. That would be truly cross-disciplinary. > Henry > >> On Jun 4, 2020, at 2:28 PM, Colin Dixon wrote: >> >> I think it's also time to recognize that clarifying differences can >> serve to divide, and to legitimize and endorse some voices, >> experiences and expressions, at the expense of others. >> That is a reminder i hear from organizers in oakland, many of whom are >> rejecting - on fact and principle - characterizations of outsiders >> versus locals. Also important are reminders that many outsiders were >> or would be locals, if not for the policies and economics that enforce >> dispossession and instability of communities of color. In other words, >> "f**k your zip code" where 'your' refers to the police, media, who use >> zipcode to understand voice and message. >> >> Peggy's rhyming response to "why the riot gear" shows that the labels >> of 'violent versus non-violent,' 'rally versus protest,' are often not >> very useful when applied to protestors and organizers, but are better >> applied to the interaction between protestors, authorities, other >> players, and various means arrayed by both (or many) sides - not to >> mention the histories and physical structures of the landscapes. This >> way of understanding definitions in terms of interactions, not >> intentions or some other seemingly inherent quality, seems like a good >> place for CHAT's tools. >> >> That said, there are of course differences in intentions, in tone, and >> in message, of public actions. I like knowing when i can bring my >> kids. As Helena mentions, some of these definitions are already coded, >> eg "student-led", and understood by those who have been involved with >> organizing for a while. Clarity in these definitions certainly makes >> it easier for more people (current outsiders) to understand what they >> are supporting and what risks might be, and then to join where they >> feel safe and confident. But again, it raises a question of who these >> definitions are for, how they might be used in ways other than >> intended, and what assumptions underpin them. Who do the definitions >> protect and create safe space for? Who do they leave vulnerable? >> >> Lurking, listening and appreciating, >> - Colin >> >> On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 12:40 PM Helena Worthen wrote: >>> >>> Time to clarify the differences among >>> >>> riot >>> protest >>> demonstration >>> rally >>> non-violent direct action >>> >>> I mention this because there are now specific events planned to be held in appropriate locations for different purposes. For example, you might bring your elementary school-age kids to a rally, or even a demonstration, but not to a non-violent direct action event. I am seeing demonstrations in my area planned to be safe for specific age groups - a call for a demonstration, for example, identified as ?student-led." >>> >>> >>> Helena Worthen >>> helenaworthen@gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:04 PM, Peg Griffin, Ph.D. wrote: >>> >>> BTW, clearly the answer to the chant had to be: ?We are here in riot gear to get you to start a riot, dear.? >>> >>> >>> From: Peg Griffin, Ph.D. [mailto:Peg.Griffin@att.net] >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 10:57 PM >>> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' >>> Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >>> >>> May, 3, 2020, DC, we march and chant, >>> ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? >>> >>> We stop for more testimonials about our dead and endangered. >>> We march and chant again: >>> ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? >>> >>> More and more armed active duty military move closer to us, now behind us. Edging in, making our group, two groups. >>> >>> Our young leaders know that move and know what we can do next? >>> >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 9:00 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >>> >>> You might lay out the program of a second strike for the people of Minneapolis, David. >>> It would deflect from stereotypes about what the range of demands can be. >>> >>> Of course Anthony was not throwing a sucker punch. But some ones are throwing sucker punches by using the >>> peaceful rallies as a pretext for violence. At the moment (or last time I looked) analysts watching >>> video are trying to figure out who is coming to protests with duffle bags full of bats. And everyone >>> is scared witless by the fear of what Trump is doing with almost no opposition from the Republican >>> Senate. >>> >>> It just all stinks of 1937-1939 to me. >>> I'm a very premature antifacist by birth. With Global Warming and Covid-19 thrown in. >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:45 PM David Kellogg wrote: >>> >>> Anthony: >>> >>> When I was a kid, there was a street fighting tactic called "sucker punching". You waltz up to your sucker, you point vaguely over his shoulder--suckers are invariably male--and you say something like "Wow! Look at that!" "Watch out!" or "Hey--what's over there?". Then as the sucker turns his head, ya let him have it. >>> >>> I would characterize ALL looting as a kind of "sucker punching", a kind of whataboutism"--a flash-bang distraction, a way of changing the subject. I don't just mean what Biden, Cuomo, and this morning President Obama meant--that is, that looting is what allows Mr. Trump to bluster and bellow and get everybody to forget the murders of black people. He's gonna do that anyway, because it's all he knows how to do. >>> >>> I mean that looting doesn't address the police who murdered and who murder with impunity, doesn't redress the doctrine of "Qualified Immunity" brought in by the Supreme Court to protect killer cops, and doesn't eliminate the paramilitary "Police Union" in Minneapolis which has SUCCESSFULLY defended the killers of Philando Castile and Jamar Clark. >>> >>> Now I assume you are not trying to sucker punch me--you know I'm no sucker. I assume that the long, informative list of looted venues you have supplied (many names I recognize from my slot-car racing, milk-shake sipping, mispent youth) is not trying to change the topic of this thread. I think it is a genuine--nay, a well-appreciated--attempt, to show me the scope of the problem. >>> >>> But I suspect you are not really aware that what you have actually done is to make, even more eloquently than I could have done, the case for a second Minneapolis general strike. >>> A second Minneapolis General Strike would offer special protection to businesses run by community members the way that no National Guard or military repression can. In the First Minneapolis General strike, strike committees were community members. >>> A second Minneapolis General Strike would prevent the spread of Covid 19 in a way that "reopening" small businesses has imperilled. (Today the Swedes admitted that the Swedish model was a mistake) >>> A second Minneapolis General Strike would render the curfew irrelevant. Only essential neighborhood businesses, not milk shake parlors and slot car race tracks, would be allowed to stay open. >>> A second Minneapolis General Strike would allow a democratically elected strike committee to clearly distinguish between proportionate responses on the one hand and whataboutism and sucker-punching small business on the other. >>> >>> (Why can't Minnesotans rely on the democratically elected Democratic-Farmer-Labor city and state adminstration to do that? I'm glad you asked. For the same reason that Derek Chauvin had to be arrested by the state authorities and not by the Hennepin County cop shop--there is already a state of dual power in Minnesota, but it is led by Bob Kroll and his lawless, orderless "law-and-order" "Police Federation". Can we stop using the term "law enforcement" now?) >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIuS37WM0Q$ >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIvy0hnDqA$ >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:49 AM Anthony Barra wrote: >>> >>> David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of the proportionate response too: >>> >>> In Minneapolis >>> ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property damage and looted. >>> >>> ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. >>> >>> ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water damage. >>> >>> ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed >>> >>> ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed. >>> >>> ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. >>> >>> ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property damage. >>> >>> ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage >>> >>> ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage >>> >>> ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage >>> >>> ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage >>> >>> ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting >>> >>> ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage >>> >>> ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting >>> >>> ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire >>> >>> ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage >>> >>> ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting >>> >>> ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. >>> >>> ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. >>> >>> ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. >>> >>> ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. >>> >>> ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. >>> >>> ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage >>> >>> ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. >>> >>> ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. >>> >>> ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage >>> >>> ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and looting. >>> >>> ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. >>> >>> ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. >>> >>> ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window >>> >>> ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. >>> >>> ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. >>> >>> ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Tibet Store: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. >>> >>> ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. >>> >>> ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, graffiti and some interior damage. >>> >>> ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >>> >>> ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage >>> >>> ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. >>> >>> ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. >>> >>> ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>> >>> ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire >>> >>> ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire damage. >>> >>> ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. >>> >>> ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. >>> >>> ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. >>> >>> ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and 29th: Fire, destroyed. >>> >>> ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. >>> >>> ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. >>> >>> ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. >>> >>> ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. >>> >>> Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters >>> >>> ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle smashed through windows. >>> >>> ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. >>> >>> ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti. >>> >>> ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle stolen. >>> >>> ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. >>> >>> ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft of ATM. >>> >>> ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> Seward Community Co-op, Facebook >>> >>> ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. >>> >>> ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> Spencer Wallman >>> >>> ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. >>> >>> ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. >>> >>> ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. >>> >>> ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting >>> >>> ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. >>> >>> ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. >>> >>> ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. >>> >>> ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. >>> >>> ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. >>> >>> ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed report of looting, property damage. >>> >>> ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. >>> >>> ? Bondesque: Property damage. >>> >>> In St. Paul >>> ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Turf Club: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. >>> >>> ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage >>> >>> ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. >>> >>> ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. >>> >>> ? To New York Midway: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. >>> >>> ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage >>> >>> ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire. >>> >>> ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage >>> >>> ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. >>> >>> ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. >>> >>> ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, graffiti. >>> >>> ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. >>> >>> ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. >>> >>> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. >>> >>> ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. >>> >>> ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. >>> >>> ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. >>> >>> ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. >>> >>> ? The Fixery, Highland: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Bole Ethiopian Restaurant: Fire. >>> >>> ? Enterprise University Avenue: Fire. >>> >>> ? Goodwill: Property damage. >>> >>> In Twin Cities suburbs >>> ? Target Maplewood: Property damage and looting >>> >>> ? The Jewelers Saint Anthony: Property damage. >>> >>> ? GameStop Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting. >>> >>> ? Walmart Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting >>> >>> .? T-Mobile Store Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Family Dollar Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Walgreens 63rd and Brooklyn Blvd., Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >>> >>> ? Western Service Center, Apple Valley: Property, fire, and water damage. >>> >>> Or how about this? >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DarrenJBeattie/status/1268003013425344514?s=19__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIve8BKSBw$ >>> >>> This sucks. >>> >>> Everyone in the country agreed on Day 1 -- prosecute the cops, mourn for the dead, seek a productive path forward. There was no one left to persuade! On at least this one thing, we were more united than any time in recent memory. >>> >>> 7 days later...half of that goodwill, natural fellowship, and brotherhood has been pissed away. >>> >>> The sale was already made, but the sellers kept selling and likely blew the deal. >>> >>> Sucks. >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, June 3, 2020, David Kellogg wrote: >>> >>> I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd Precinct (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). >>> >>> Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive politics--but it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities in the USA. I went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a chain-link fence dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember the column of black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, because it was halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower Hill. >>> >>> Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) and financing fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops how to use hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas deployments of the US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, sported a "white power" badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal (but he also said pretty much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack Obama). >>> >>> There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. >>> >>> (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, but there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIuS37WM0Q$ >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIvy0hnDqA$ >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIupXWRG1g$ >>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>> >>> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200604/f588d9f8/attachment.html From Peg.Griffin@att.net Thu Jun 4 18:57:16 2020 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin, Ph.D.) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 21:57:16 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006401d63adc$a431c6b0$ec955410$@att.net> Good to read, Colin. And you might already know that in some places many groups have pretty good preparations for children because of the extreme cases where ICE and CBP raiders come to families with children, not folks bringing children with them to protests. When they take undocumented parents or documented ones they have on their lists, they leave behind children who come home later from school or day care, some very young ones. So sanctuary monitoring groups have worked out procedures and protocols and love for children's safety short and long term. Peg -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Colin Dixon Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 4:29 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis I think it's also time to recognize that clarifying differences can serve to divide, and to legitimize and endorse some voices, experiences and expressions, at the expense of others. That is a reminder i hear from organizers in oakland, many of whom are rejecting - on fact and principle - characterizations of outsiders versus locals. Also important are reminders that many outsiders were or would be locals, if not for the policies and economics that enforce dispossession and instability of communities of color. In other words, "f**k your zip code" where 'your' refers to the police, media, who use zipcode to understand voice and message. Peggy's rhyming response to "why the riot gear" shows that the labels of 'violent versus non-violent,' 'rally versus protest,' are often not very useful when applied to protestors and organizers, but are better applied to the interaction between protestors, authorities, other players, and various means arrayed by both (or many) sides - not to mention the histories and physical structures of the landscapes. This way of understanding definitions in terms of interactions, not intentions or some other seemingly inherent quality, seems like a good place for CHAT's tools. That said, there are of course differences in intentions, in tone, and in message, of public actions. I like knowing when i can bring my kids. As Helena mentions, some of these definitions are already coded, eg "student-led", and understood by those who have been involved with organizing for a while. Clarity in these definitions certainly makes it easier for more people (current outsiders) to understand what they are supporting and what risks might be, and then to join where they feel safe and confident. But again, it raises a question of who these definitions are for, how they might be used in ways other than intended, and what assumptions underpin them. Who do the definitions protect and create safe space for? Who do they leave vulnerable? Lurking, listening and appreciating, - Colin On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 12:40 PM Helena Worthen wrote: > > Time to clarify the differences among > > riot > protest > demonstration > rally > non-violent direct action > > I mention this because there are now specific events planned to be held in appropriate locations for different purposes. For example, you might bring your elementary school-age kids to a rally, or even a demonstration, but not to a non-violent direct action event. I am seeing demonstrations in my area planned to be safe for specific age groups - a call for a demonstration, for example, identified as ?student-led." > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > > > > > > > On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:04 PM, Peg Griffin, Ph.D. wrote: > > BTW, clearly the answer to the chant had to be: ?We are here in riot gear to get you to start a riot, dear.? > > > From: Peg Griffin, Ph.D. [mailto:Peg.Griffin@att.net] > Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 10:57 PM > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > May, 3, 2020, DC, we march and chant, > ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? > > We stop for more testimonials about our dead and endangered. > We march and chant again: > ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? > > More and more armed active duty military move closer to us, now behind us. Edging in, making our group, two groups. > > Our young leaders know that move and know what we can do next? > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 9:00 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > You might lay out the program of a second strike for the people of Minneapolis, David. > It would deflect from stereotypes about what the range of demands can be. > > Of course Anthony was not throwing a sucker punch. But some ones are > throwing sucker punches by using the peaceful rallies as a pretext for > violence. At the moment (or last time I looked) analysts watching > video are trying to figure out who is coming to protests with duffle > bags full of bats. And everyone is scared witless by the fear of what Trump is doing with almost no opposition from the Republican Senate. > > It just all stinks of 1937-1939 to me. > I'm a very premature antifacist by birth. With Global Warming and Covid-19 thrown in. > > mike > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:45 PM David Kellogg wrote: > > Anthony: > > When I was a kid, there was a street fighting tactic called "sucker punching". You waltz up to your sucker, you point vaguely over his shoulder--suckers are invariably male--and you say something like "Wow! Look at that!" "Watch out!" or "Hey--what's over there?". Then as the sucker turns his head, ya let him have it. > > I would characterize ALL looting as a kind of "sucker punching", a kind of whataboutism"--a flash-bang distraction, a way of changing the subject. I don't just mean what Biden, Cuomo, and this morning President Obama meant--that is, that looting is what allows Mr. Trump to bluster and bellow and get everybody to forget the murders of black people. He's gonna do that anyway, because it's all he knows how to do. > > I mean that looting doesn't address the police who murdered and who murder with impunity, doesn't redress the doctrine of "Qualified Immunity" brought in by the Supreme Court to protect killer cops, and doesn't eliminate the paramilitary "Police Union" in Minneapolis which has SUCCESSFULLY defended the killers of Philando Castile and Jamar Clark. > > Now I assume you are not trying to sucker punch me--you know I'm no sucker. I assume that the long, informative list of looted venues you have supplied (many names I recognize from my slot-car racing, milk-shake sipping, mispent youth) is not trying to change the topic of this thread. I think it is a genuine--nay, a well-appreciated--attempt, to show me the scope of the problem. > > But I suspect you are not really aware that what you have actually done is to make, even more eloquently than I could have done, the case for a second Minneapolis general strike. > A second Minneapolis General Strike would offer special protection to businesses run by community members the way that no National Guard or military repression can. In the First Minneapolis General strike, strike committees were community members. > A second Minneapolis General Strike would prevent the spread of Covid > 19 in a way that "reopening" small businesses has imperilled. (Today the Swedes admitted that the Swedish model was a mistake) A second Minneapolis General Strike would render the curfew irrelevant. Only essential neighborhood businesses, not milk shake parlors and slot car race tracks, would be allowed to stay open. > A second Minneapolis General Strike would allow a democratically elected strike committee to clearly distinguish between proportionate responses on the one hand and whataboutism and sucker-punching small business on the other. > > (Why can't Minnesotans rely on the democratically elected > Democratic-Farmer-Labor city and state adminstration to do that? I'm > glad you asked. For the same reason that Derek Chauvin had to be > arrested by the state authorities and not by the Hennepin County cop > shop--there is already a state of dual power in Minnesota, but it is > led by Bob Kroll and his lawless, orderless "law-and-order" "Police > Federation". Can we stop using the term "law enforcement" now?) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie > w/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOe > rJlOpRbWX2nIuS37WM0Q$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. > Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 > 5270__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlO > pRbWX2nIvy0hnDqA$ > > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:49 AM Anthony Barra wrote: > > David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of the proportionate response too: > > In Minneapolis > ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. > > ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. > > ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property damage and looted. > > ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. > > ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. > > ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. > > ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage. > > ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water damage. > > ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. > > ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and looting. > > ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. > > ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. > > ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. > > ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. > > ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door > smashed > > ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed. > > ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. > > ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property damage. > > ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage > > ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage > > ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage > > ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage > > ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting > > ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage > > ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting > > ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire > > ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage > > ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting > > ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. > > ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. > > ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. > > ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. > > ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage > > ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. > > ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. > > ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: Property damage and looting. > > ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. > > ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. > > ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. > > ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. > > ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. > > ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. > > ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. > > ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. > > ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. > > ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. > > ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. > > ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage > > ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. > > ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. > > ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire damage. > > ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire damage. > > ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and looting. > > ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and looting. > > ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. > > ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. > > ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. > > ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and looting. > > ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. > > ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. > > ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window > > ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. > > ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. > > ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. > > ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage and looting. > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. > > ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Tibet Store: Property damage. > > ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. > > ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. > > ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. > > ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. > > ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. > > ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, graffiti and some interior damage. > > ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. > > ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. > > ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. > > ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. > > ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. > > ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. > > ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. > > ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. > > ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage > > ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. > > ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. > > ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. > > ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. > > ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. > > ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. > > ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. > > ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. > > ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire > > ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. > > ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, extensive fire damage. > > ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire damage. > > ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. > > ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. > > ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. > > ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and 29th: Fire, destroyed. > > ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. > > ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. > > ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. > > ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. > > ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. > > Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters > > ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. > > ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. > > ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property damage, looting. > > ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle smashed through windows. > > ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. > > ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. > > ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. > > ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti. > > ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle stolen. > > ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. > > ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, looting. > > ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. > > ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft of ATM. > > ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. > > Seward Community Co-op, Facebook > > ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. > > ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting. > > ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. > > ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. > > ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. > > ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. > > ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > Spencer Wallman > > ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. > > ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. > > ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. > > ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and looting. > > ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. > > ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. > > ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting > > ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. > > ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. > > ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. > > ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. > > ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. > > ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. > > ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed report of looting, property damage. > > ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. > > ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. > > ? Bondesque: Property damage. > > In St. Paul > ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property damage and looting. > > ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. > > ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. > > ? Turf Club: Property damage. > > ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. > > ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. > > ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. > > ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage > > ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and looting. > > ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. > > ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. > > ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. > > ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, looting. > > ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. > > ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. > > ? To New York Midway: Property damage. > > ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. > > ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. > > ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage > > ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire. > > ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. > > ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage > > ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. > > ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. > > ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. > > ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, graffiti. > > ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. > > ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. > > ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. > > ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. > > ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. > > ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. > > ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. > > ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. > > ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. > > ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. > > ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. > > ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. > > ? The Fixery, Highland: Property damage. > > ? Bole Ethiopian Restaurant: Fire. > > ? Enterprise University Avenue: Fire. > > ? Goodwill: Property damage. > > In Twin Cities suburbs > ? Target Maplewood: Property damage and looting > > ? The Jewelers Saint Anthony: Property damage. > > ? GameStop Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting. > > ? Walmart Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting > > .? T-Mobile Store Brooklyn Center: Property damage. > > ? Family Dollar Brooklyn Center: Property damage. > > ? Walgreens 63rd and Brooklyn Blvd., Brooklyn Center: Property damage. > > ? Western Service Center, Apple Valley: Property, fire, and water damage. > > Or how about this? > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DarrenJBeattie/status/ > 1268003013425344514?s=19__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgc > t__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIve8BKSBw$ > > This sucks. > > Everyone in the country agreed on Day 1 -- prosecute the cops, mourn for the dead, seek a productive path forward. There was no one left to persuade! On at least this one thing, we were more united than any time in recent memory. > > 7 days later...half of that goodwill, natural fellowship, and brotherhood has been pissed away. > > The sale was already made, but the sellers kept selling and likely blew the deal. > > Sucks. > > Anthony > > > > > On Wednesday, June 3, 2020, David Kellogg wrote: > > I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd Precinct (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). > > Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive politics--but it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities in the USA. I went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a chain-link fence dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember the column of black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, because it was halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower Hill. > > Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) and financing fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops how to use hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas deployments of the US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, sported a "white power" badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal (but he also said pretty much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack Obama). > > There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. > > (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, > but there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie > w/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOe > rJlOpRbWX2nIuS37WM0Q$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. > Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150 > 5270__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlO > pRbWX2nIvy0hnDqA$ > > > > -- > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1N > sodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIupXWRG1g$ > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources > website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Thu Jun 4 19:21:57 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:21:57 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Valuable context, Richard. Thank you. Very sorry for my ignorance, but would you define or explain the "expansive learning" concept in a sentence or two (or 3)? You can also call me a lazy bum and tell me to google around and read up -- but I just did that and didn't really understand what I read. Feel free to ignore this : ) But thanks otherwise, Anthony On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 9:11 PM Richard Beach wrote: > As someone who?s lived in Minneapolis since the early 1970s, I?d like to > build on David?s post by providing some historical context. When blacks > moved from Gary and Chicago to Milwaukee and Minneapolis in the 1960s and > 1970s, they encountered little or no economic support in terms of jobs or > housing due to redlining/discrimination. > > Since that time, blacks in Minneapolis have experienced little or no > improvement, as reported by Minnesota Public Radio > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tinyurl.com/y84yp3rs__;!!Mih3wA!QF-TzFlj_70FTg-zNvXn4cen2hXHwevFlZ-AhomAp7fGsB3jLchx6HDMVCAe_eR0s6EMaw$ > > > Minneapolis has the second highest income gap between blacks and whites in > the country (interestingly enough from an historical perspective, Milwaukee > has the highest). The median black family in the Twin Cities area earns > $38,178 a year; less than half of the median white family income of $84,459 > a year. In 2016, the Twin Cities area black unemployment rate was more than > three times the white unemployment rate. > > According to the most recent census data, the black poverty rate in the > Twin Cities area was 25.4 percent, which is over four times the white > poverty rate of 5.9 percent. The Twin Cities area black poverty rate is > significantly higher than the national black poverty rate of 22 percent, > while the white poverty rate is significantly lower than the national one > of 9 percent. > > While Minneapolis has the highest percentage of single-family home > ownership of any city in the country with about three-quarters of white > families in the Twin Cities own homes, only about one-quarter of black > families do. The area had a long history where "racial covenants" made it > hard for blacks to become homebuyers and live in white neighborhoods. > > In 2019, the incarceration rate of blacks in the Twin Cities area was 11 > times that of whites. > > The state of Minnesota has one of the nation's worst education achievement > gaps between blacks and whites. In 2019, it ranked 50th when it comes to > racial disparities in high school graduation rates. > > While the Minneapolis Public Schools are relatively good, schools in North > Minneapolis located near black neighborhoods have experienced enrollment > declines since, leading the Minneapolis School Board to pass a new plan to > bolster enrollments/support for those schools, but budget cuts due to the > pandemic may undermine some of that. > > The University of Minnesota, Minneapolis Park Board, and Minneapolis Pubic > Schools have all cut ties with the Minneapolis Police Department. > > The question arises a from a CHAT perspective on objects/motives driving > systems, as well as an ?expansive learning? perspective, what new > objects/motives will arise in the future from the ashes of burned out > Minneapolis neighborhoods that will undo this history of racist neglect in > a relatively short time period, particularly when the whole public > financial system faces decline? > Richard Beach, Professor Emeritus of English Education, University of > Minnesota > rbeach@umn.edu > Websites: Digital writing > > , Media literacy > > , Teaching literature > > , Identity-focused ELA Teaching > > , Common Core State Standards > > , Apps for literacy learning > > , Teaching about climate change > > , Teaching language as action > > > > On Jun 4, 2020, at 7:47 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > Colin, > Your post brings to my mind the articles I am receiving daily from > Academia on embodied cognition, more broadly: embodied, enactive, extended > and embedded. What you say about the context: "histories and physical > structures of the landscapes? profiles the cultural and historical > complexity of countervailing projects as they collide on the street. This > may be an intellectualized take on what?s going on, but it helps me draw > value from the articles from Academia. I am waiting for a spate of articles > that apply the 4Es to the big picture. That would be truly > cross-disciplinary. > Henry > > On Jun 4, 2020, at 2:28 PM, Colin Dixon wrote: > > I think it's also time to recognize that clarifying differences can > serve to divide, and to legitimize and endorse some voices, > experiences and expressions, at the expense of others. > That is a reminder i hear from organizers in oakland, many of whom are > rejecting - on fact and principle - characterizations of outsiders > versus locals. Also important are reminders that many outsiders were > or would be locals, if not for the policies and economics that enforce > dispossession and instability of communities of color. In other words, > "f**k your zip code" where 'your' refers to the police, media, who use > zipcode to understand voice and message. > > Peggy's rhyming response to "why the riot gear" shows that the labels > of 'violent versus non-violent,' 'rally versus protest,' are often not > very useful when applied to protestors and organizers, but are better > applied to the interaction between protestors, authorities, other > players, and various means arrayed by both (or many) sides - not to > mention the histories and physical structures of the landscapes. This > way of understanding definitions in terms of interactions, not > intentions or some other seemingly inherent quality, seems like a good > place for CHAT's tools. > > That said, there are of course differences in intentions, in tone, and > in message, of public actions. I like knowing when i can bring my > kids. As Helena mentions, some of these definitions are already coded, > eg "student-led", and understood by those who have been involved with > organizing for a while. Clarity in these definitions certainly makes > it easier for more people (current outsiders) to understand what they > are supporting and what risks might be, and then to join where they > feel safe and confident. But again, it raises a question of who these > definitions are for, how they might be used in ways other than > intended, and what assumptions underpin them. Who do the definitions > protect and create safe space for? Who do they leave vulnerable? > > Lurking, listening and appreciating, > - Colin > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 12:40 PM Helena Worthen > wrote: > > > Time to clarify the differences among > > riot > protest > demonstration > rally > non-violent direct action > > I mention this because there are now specific events planned to be held in > appropriate locations for different purposes. For example, you might bring > your elementary school-age kids to a rally, or even a demonstration, but > not to a non-violent direct action event. I am seeing demonstrations in my > area planned to be safe for specific age groups - a call for a > demonstration, for example, identified as ?student-led." > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > > > > > > > On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:04 PM, Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: > > BTW, clearly the answer to the chant had to be: ?We are here in riot gear > to get you to start a riot, dear.? > > > From: Peg Griffin, Ph.D. [mailto:Peg.Griffin@att.net] > Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 10:57 PM > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > May, 3, 2020, DC, we march and chant, > ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? > > We stop for more testimonials about our dead and endangered. > We march and chant again: > ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? > > More and more armed active duty military move closer to us, now behind us. > Edging in, making our group, two groups. > > Our young leaders know that move and know what we can do next? > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 9:00 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > You might lay out the program of a second strike for the people of > Minneapolis, David. > It would deflect from stereotypes about what the range of demands can be. > > Of course Anthony was not throwing a sucker punch. But some ones are > throwing sucker punches by using the > peaceful rallies as a pretext for violence. At the moment (or last time I > looked) analysts watching > video are trying to figure out who is coming to protests with duffle bags > full of bats. And everyone > is scared witless by the fear of what Trump is doing with almost no > opposition from the Republican > Senate. > > It just all stinks of 1937-1939 to me. > I'm a very premature antifacist by birth. With Global Warming and Covid-19 > thrown in. > > mike > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:45 PM David Kellogg wrote: > > Anthony: > > When I was a kid, there was a street fighting tactic called "sucker > punching". You waltz up to your sucker, you point vaguely over his > shoulder--suckers are invariably male--and you say something like "Wow! > Look at that!" "Watch out!" or "Hey--what's over there?". Then as the > sucker turns his head, ya let him have it. > > I would characterize ALL looting as a kind of "sucker punching", a kind of > whataboutism"--a flash-bang distraction, a way of changing the subject. I > don't just mean what Biden, Cuomo, and this morning President Obama > meant--that is, that looting is what allows Mr. Trump to bluster and bellow > and get everybody to forget the murders of black people. He's gonna do that > anyway, because it's all he knows how to do. > > I mean that looting doesn't address the police who murdered and who murder > with impunity, doesn't redress the doctrine of "Qualified Immunity" brought > in by the Supreme Court to protect killer cops, and doesn't eliminate the > paramilitary "Police Union" in Minneapolis which has SUCCESSFULLY defended > the killers of Philando Castile and Jamar Clark. > > Now I assume you are not trying to sucker punch me--you know I'm no > sucker. I assume that the long, informative list of looted venues you have > supplied (many names I recognize from my slot-car racing, milk-shake > sipping, mispent youth) is not trying to change the topic of this thread. I > think it is a genuine--nay, a well-appreciated--attempt, to show me the > scope of the problem. > > But I suspect you are not really aware that what you have actually done is > to make, even more eloquently than I could have done, the case for a second > Minneapolis general strike. > A second Minneapolis General Strike would offer special protection to > businesses run by community members the way that no National Guard or > military repression can. In the First Minneapolis General strike, strike > committees were community members. > A second Minneapolis General Strike would prevent the spread of Covid 19 > in a way that "reopening" small businesses has imperilled. (Today the > Swedes admitted that the Swedish model was a mistake) > A second Minneapolis General Strike would render the curfew irrelevant. > Only essential neighborhood businesses, not milk shake parlors and slot car > race tracks, would be allowed to stay open. > A second Minneapolis General Strike would allow a democratically elected > strike committee to clearly distinguish between proportionate responses on > the one hand and whataboutism and sucker-punching small business on the > other. > > (Why can't Minnesotans rely on the democratically elected > Democratic-Farmer-Labor city and state adminstration to do that? I'm glad > you asked. For the same reason that Derek Chauvin had to be arrested by the > state authorities and not by the Hennepin County cop shop--there is already > a state of dual power in Minnesota, but it is led by Bob Kroll and his > lawless, orderless "law-and-order" "Police Federation". Can we stop using > the term "law enforcement" now?) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIuS37WM0Q$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIvy0hnDqA$ > > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:49 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly > characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of the > proportionate response too: > > In Minneapolis > ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. > > ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. > > ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property damage and > looted. > > ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. > > ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. > > ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. > > ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage. > > ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water damage. > > ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. > > ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and looting. > > ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. > > ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. > > ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. > > ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. > > ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door > smashed > > ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed. > > ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. > > ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property damage. > > ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage > > ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage > > ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage > > ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage > > ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting > > ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage > > ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting > > ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire > > ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage > > ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting > > ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. > > ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. > > ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. > > ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. > > ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage > > ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. > > ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. > > ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: Property > damage and looting. > > ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. > > ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. > > ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. > > ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. > > ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. > > ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. > > ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. > > ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. > > ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. > > ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. > > ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. > > ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage > > ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. > > ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. > > ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire damage. > > ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire damage. > > ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and looting. > > ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and looting. > > ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. > > ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. > > ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. > > ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and looting. > > ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. > > ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. > > ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window > > ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. > > ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. > > ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. > > ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage and > looting. > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. > > ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Tibet Store: Property damage. > > ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. > > ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. > > ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. > > ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. > > ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. > > ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, graffiti and > some interior damage. > > ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. > > ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. > > ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. > > ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. > > ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. > > ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. > > ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. > > ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. > > ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage > > ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. > > ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. > > ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. > > ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. > > ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. > > ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. > > ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. > > ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. > > ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire > > ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. > > ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, extensive fire > damage. > > ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire damage. > > ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. > > ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. > > ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. > > ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and 29th: > Fire, destroyed. > > ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. > > ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. > > ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. > > ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. > > ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. > > Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters > > ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. > > ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. > > ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property damage, > looting. > > ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle smashed > through windows. > > ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. > > ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. > > ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. > > ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti. > > ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle stolen. > > ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. > > ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, looting. > > ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. > > ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft of ATM. > > ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. > > Seward Community Co-op, Facebook > > ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. > > ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting. > > ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. > > ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. > > ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. > > ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. > > ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > Spencer Wallman > > ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. > > ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. > > ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. > > ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and looting. > > ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. > > ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. > > ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting > > ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. > > ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. > > ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. > > ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. > > ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. > > ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. > > ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed report of > looting, property damage. > > ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. > > ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. > > ? Bondesque: Property damage. > > In St. Paul > ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property damage > and looting. > > ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. > > ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. > > ? Turf Club: Property damage. > > ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. > > ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. > > ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. > > ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage > > ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and looting. > > ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. > > ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. > > ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. > > ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, looting. > > ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. > > ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. > > ? To New York Midway: Property damage. > > ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. > > ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. > > ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage > > ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire. > > ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. > > ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage > > ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. > > ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. > > ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. > > ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, graffiti. > > ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. > > ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. > > ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. > > ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. > > ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. > > ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. > > ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. > > ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. > > ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. > > ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. > > ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. > > ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. > > ? The Fixery, Highland: Property damage. > > ? Bole Ethiopian Restaurant: Fire. > > ? Enterprise University Avenue: Fire. > > ? Goodwill: Property damage. > > In Twin Cities suburbs > ? Target Maplewood: Property damage and looting > > ? The Jewelers Saint Anthony: Property damage. > > ? GameStop Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting. > > ? Walmart Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting > > .? T-Mobile Store Brooklyn Center: Property damage. > > ? Family Dollar Brooklyn Center: Property damage. > > ? Walgreens 63rd and Brooklyn Blvd., Brooklyn Center: Property damage. > > ? Western Service Center, Apple Valley: Property, fire, and water damage. > > Or how about this? > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DarrenJBeattie/status/1268003013425344514?s=19__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIve8BKSBw$ > > This sucks. > > Everyone in the country agreed on Day 1 -- prosecute the cops, mourn for > the dead, seek a productive path forward. There was no one left to > persuade! On at least this one thing, we were more united than any time in > recent memory. > > 7 days later...half of that goodwill, natural fellowship, and brotherhood > has been pissed away. > > The sale was already made, but the sellers kept selling and likely blew > the deal. > > Sucks. > > Anthony > > > > > On Wednesday, June 3, 2020, David Kellogg wrote: > > I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd Precinct > (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely > proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). > > Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive politics--but > it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities in the USA. I > went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a chain-link fence > dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember the column of > black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, because it was > halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower Hill. > > Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a > paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the > Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black > people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) and financing > fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops how to use > hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas deployments of the > US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, sported a "white power" > badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal (but he also said pretty > much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack Obama). > > There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union > launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical > Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed > the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group > of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized > the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the > population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in > mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder > if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. > > (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, but > there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIuS37WM0Q$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIvy0hnDqA$ > > > > -- > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIupXWRG1g$ > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200604/d0241ac8/attachment.html From rbeach@umn.edu Thu Jun 4 19:51:39 2020 From: rbeach@umn.edu (Richard Beach) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 21:51:39 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are never fixed given that as participants encounter new contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be blocked by a timid political leadership . For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: Foundations, findings and future challenges. Educational Research Review, 5, 1?24. Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions for expansivelearning and transformative agency. Journal of the Learning Sciences, 25(4), 599-633. Richard Beach, Professor Emeritus of English Education, University of Minnesota rbeach@umn.edu Websites: Digital writing , Media?literacy , Teaching literature , Identity-focused ELA Teaching , Common Core?State Standards , Apps for literacy?learning , Teaching?about?climate change , Teaching language as action > On Jun 4, 2020, at 9:21 PM, Anthony Barra wrote: > > Valuable context, Richard. Thank you. > > Very sorry for my ignorance, but would you define or explain the "expansive learning" concept in a sentence or two (or 3)? You can also call me a lazy bum and tell me to google around and read up -- but I just did that and didn't really understand what I read. > > Feel free to ignore this : ) But thanks otherwise, > > Anthony > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 9:11 PM Richard Beach > wrote: > As someone who?s lived in Minneapolis since the early 1970s, I?d like to build on David?s post by providing some historical context. When blacks moved from Gary and Chicago to Milwaukee and Minneapolis in the 1960s and 1970s, they encountered little or no economic support in terms of jobs or housing due to redlining/discrimination. > > Since that time, blacks in Minneapolis have experienced little or no improvement, as reported by Minnesota Public Radio https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tinyurl.com/y84yp3rs__;!!Mih3wA!SLGpQj8PmApHqKlEeH3z-ohB8R76qeqnpglVMrj9N2HOiJRn_QxL9FXpHMmS9eW2ATyDsA$ > Minneapolis has the second highest income gap between blacks and whites in the country (interestingly enough from an historical perspective, Milwaukee has the highest). The median black family in the Twin Cities area earns $38,178 a year; less than half of the median white family income of $84,459 a year. In 2016, the Twin Cities area black unemployment rate was more than three times the white unemployment rate. > > According to the most recent census data, the black poverty rate in the Twin Cities area was 25.4 percent, which is over four times the white poverty rate of 5.9 percent. The Twin Cities area black poverty rate is significantly higher than the national black poverty rate of 22 percent, while the white poverty rate is significantly lower than the national one of 9 percent. > > While Minneapolis has the highest percentage of single-family home ownership of any city in the country with about three-quarters of white families in the Twin Cities own homes, only about one-quarter of black families do. The area had a long history where "racial covenants" made it hard for blacks to become homebuyers and live in white neighborhoods. > > In 2019, the incarceration rate of blacks in the Twin Cities area was 11 times that of whites. > > The state of Minnesota has one of the nation's worst education achievement gaps between blacks and whites. In 2019, it ranked 50th when it comes to racial disparities in high school graduation rates. > > While the Minneapolis Public Schools are relatively good, schools in North Minneapolis located near black neighborhoods have experienced enrollment declines since, leading the Minneapolis School Board to pass a new plan to bolster enrollments/support for those schools, but budget cuts due to the pandemic may undermine some of that. > > The University of Minnesota, Minneapolis Park Board, and Minneapolis Pubic Schools have all cut ties with the Minneapolis Police Department. > > The question arises a from a CHAT perspective on objects/motives driving systems, as well as an ?expansive learning? perspective, what new objects/motives will arise in the future from the ashes of burned out Minneapolis neighborhoods that will undo this history of racist neglect in a relatively short time period, particularly when the whole public financial system faces decline? > > Richard Beach, Professor Emeritus of English Education, University of Minnesota > rbeach@umn.edu > Websites: Digital writing , Media?literacy , Teaching literature , Identity-focused ELA Teaching , Common Core?State Standards , Apps for literacy?learning , Teaching?about?climate change , Teaching language as action > > >> On Jun 4, 2020, at 7:47 PM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: >> >> Colin, >> Your post brings to my mind the articles I am receiving daily from Academia on embodied cognition, more broadly: embodied, enactive, extended and embedded. What you say about the context: "histories and physical structures of the landscapes? profiles the cultural and historical complexity of countervailing projects as they collide on the street. This may be an intellectualized take on what?s going on, but it helps me draw value from the articles from Academia. I am waiting for a spate of articles that apply the 4Es to the big picture. That would be truly cross-disciplinary. >> Henry >> >>> On Jun 4, 2020, at 2:28 PM, Colin Dixon > wrote: >>> >>> I think it's also time to recognize that clarifying differences can >>> serve to divide, and to legitimize and endorse some voices, >>> experiences and expressions, at the expense of others. >>> That is a reminder i hear from organizers in oakland, many of whom are >>> rejecting - on fact and principle - characterizations of outsiders >>> versus locals. Also important are reminders that many outsiders were >>> or would be locals, if not for the policies and economics that enforce >>> dispossession and instability of communities of color. In other words, >>> "f**k your zip code" where 'your' refers to the police, media, who use >>> zipcode to understand voice and message. >>> >>> Peggy's rhyming response to "why the riot gear" shows that the labels >>> of 'violent versus non-violent,' 'rally versus protest,' are often not >>> very useful when applied to protestors and organizers, but are better >>> applied to the interaction between protestors, authorities, other >>> players, and various means arrayed by both (or many) sides - not to >>> mention the histories and physical structures of the landscapes. This >>> way of understanding definitions in terms of interactions, not >>> intentions or some other seemingly inherent quality, seems like a good >>> place for CHAT's tools. >>> >>> That said, there are of course differences in intentions, in tone, and >>> in message, of public actions. I like knowing when i can bring my >>> kids. As Helena mentions, some of these definitions are already coded, >>> eg "student-led", and understood by those who have been involved with >>> organizing for a while. Clarity in these definitions certainly makes >>> it easier for more people (current outsiders) to understand what they >>> are supporting and what risks might be, and then to join where they >>> feel safe and confident. But again, it raises a question of who these >>> definitions are for, how they might be used in ways other than >>> intended, and what assumptions underpin them. Who do the definitions >>> protect and create safe space for? Who do they leave vulnerable? >>> >>> Lurking, listening and appreciating, >>> - Colin >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 12:40 PM Helena Worthen > wrote: >>>> >>>> Time to clarify the differences among >>>> >>>> riot >>>> protest >>>> demonstration >>>> rally >>>> non-violent direct action >>>> >>>> I mention this because there are now specific events planned to be held in appropriate locations for different purposes. For example, you might bring your elementary school-age kids to a rally, or even a demonstration, but not to a non-violent direct action event. I am seeing demonstrations in my area planned to be safe for specific age groups - a call for a demonstration, for example, identified as ?student-led." >>>> >>>> >>>> Helena Worthen >>>> helenaworthen@gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:04 PM, Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: >>>> >>>> BTW, clearly the answer to the chant had to be: ?We are here in riot gear to get you to start a riot, dear.? >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Peg Griffin, Ph.D. [mailto:Peg.Griffin@att.net ] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 10:57 PM >>>> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > >>>> Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >>>> >>>> May, 3, 2020, DC, we march and chant, >>>> ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? >>>> >>>> We stop for more testimonials about our dead and endangered. >>>> We march and chant again: >>>> ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? >>>> >>>> More and more armed active duty military move closer to us, now behind us. Edging in, making our group, two groups. >>>> >>>> Our young leaders know that move and know what we can do next? >>>> >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu ] On Behalf Of mike cole >>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 9:00 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >>>> >>>> You might lay out the program of a second strike for the people of Minneapolis, David. >>>> It would deflect from stereotypes about what the range of demands can be. >>>> >>>> Of course Anthony was not throwing a sucker punch. But some ones are throwing sucker punches by using the >>>> peaceful rallies as a pretext for violence. At the moment (or last time I looked) analysts watching >>>> video are trying to figure out who is coming to protests with duffle bags full of bats. And everyone >>>> is scared witless by the fear of what Trump is doing with almost no opposition from the Republican >>>> Senate. >>>> >>>> It just all stinks of 1937-1939 to me. >>>> I'm a very premature antifacist by birth. With Global Warming and Covid-19 thrown in. >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:45 PM David Kellogg > wrote: >>>> >>>> Anthony: >>>> >>>> When I was a kid, there was a street fighting tactic called "sucker punching". You waltz up to your sucker, you point vaguely over his shoulder--suckers are invariably male--and you say something like "Wow! Look at that!" "Watch out!" or "Hey--what's over there?". Then as the sucker turns his head, ya let him have it. >>>> >>>> I would characterize ALL looting as a kind of "sucker punching", a kind of whataboutism"--a flash-bang distraction, a way of changing the subject. I don't just mean what Biden, Cuomo, and this morning President Obama meant--that is, that looting is what allows Mr. Trump to bluster and bellow and get everybody to forget the murders of black people. He's gonna do that anyway, because it's all he knows how to do. >>>> >>>> I mean that looting doesn't address the police who murdered and who murder with impunity, doesn't redress the doctrine of "Qualified Immunity" brought in by the Supreme Court to protect killer cops, and doesn't eliminate the paramilitary "Police Union" in Minneapolis which has SUCCESSFULLY defended the killers of Philando Castile and Jamar Clark. >>>> >>>> Now I assume you are not trying to sucker punch me--you know I'm no sucker. I assume that the long, informative list of looted venues you have supplied (many names I recognize from my slot-car racing, milk-shake sipping, mispent youth) is not trying to change the topic of this thread. I think it is a genuine--nay, a well-appreciated--attempt, to show me the scope of the problem. >>>> >>>> But I suspect you are not really aware that what you have actually done is to make, even more eloquently than I could have done, the case for a second Minneapolis general strike. >>>> A second Minneapolis General Strike would offer special protection to businesses run by community members the way that no National Guard or military repression can. In the First Minneapolis General strike, strike committees were community members. >>>> A second Minneapolis General Strike would prevent the spread of Covid 19 in a way that "reopening" small businesses has imperilled. (Today the Swedes admitted that the Swedish model was a mistake) >>>> A second Minneapolis General Strike would render the curfew irrelevant. Only essential neighborhood businesses, not milk shake parlors and slot car race tracks, would be allowed to stay open. >>>> A second Minneapolis General Strike would allow a democratically elected strike committee to clearly distinguish between proportionate responses on the one hand and whataboutism and sucker-punching small business on the other. >>>> >>>> (Why can't Minnesotans rely on the democratically elected Democratic-Farmer-Labor city and state adminstration to do that? I'm glad you asked. For the same reason that Derek Chauvin had to be arrested by the state authorities and not by the Hennepin County cop shop--there is already a state of dual power in Minnesota, but it is led by Bob Kroll and his lawless, orderless "law-and-order" "Police Federation". Can we stop using the term "law enforcement" now?) >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIuS37WM0Q$ >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIvy0hnDqA$ >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:49 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: >>>> >>>> David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of the proportionate response too: >>>> >>>> In Minneapolis >>>> ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property damage and looted. >>>> >>>> ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water damage. >>>> >>>> ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed >>>> >>>> ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed. >>>> >>>> ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. >>>> >>>> ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage >>>> >>>> ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage >>>> >>>> ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage >>>> >>>> ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage >>>> >>>> ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting >>>> >>>> ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage >>>> >>>> ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting >>>> >>>> ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire >>>> >>>> ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage >>>> >>>> ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting >>>> >>>> ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. >>>> >>>> ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. >>>> >>>> ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. >>>> >>>> ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. >>>> >>>> ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. >>>> >>>> ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage >>>> >>>> ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. >>>> >>>> ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. >>>> >>>> ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage >>>> >>>> ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. >>>> >>>> ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window >>>> >>>> ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. >>>> >>>> ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. >>>> >>>> ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Tibet Store: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. >>>> >>>> ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, graffiti and some interior damage. >>>> >>>> ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage >>>> >>>> ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. >>>> >>>> ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire >>>> >>>> ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. >>>> >>>> ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. >>>> >>>> ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and 29th: Fire, destroyed. >>>> >>>> ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. >>>> >>>> ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. >>>> >>>> ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. >>>> >>>> ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. >>>> >>>> Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters >>>> >>>> ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle smashed through windows. >>>> >>>> ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. >>>> >>>> ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti. >>>> >>>> ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle stolen. >>>> >>>> ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft of ATM. >>>> >>>> ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> Seward Community Co-op, Facebook >>>> >>>> ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. >>>> >>>> ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> Spencer Wallman >>>> >>>> ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. >>>> >>>> ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. >>>> >>>> ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. >>>> >>>> ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting >>>> >>>> ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. >>>> >>>> ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. >>>> >>>> ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. >>>> >>>> ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. >>>> >>>> ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed report of looting, property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Bondesque: Property damage. >>>> >>>> In St. Paul >>>> ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Turf Club: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. >>>> >>>> ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage >>>> >>>> ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. >>>> >>>> ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? To New York Midway: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. >>>> >>>> ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage >>>> >>>> ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire. >>>> >>>> ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage >>>> >>>> ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. >>>> >>>> ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. >>>> >>>> ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, graffiti. >>>> >>>> ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. >>>> >>>> ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. >>>> >>>> ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. >>>> >>>> ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. >>>> >>>> ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. >>>> >>>> ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? The Fixery, Highland: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Bole Ethiopian Restaurant: Fire. >>>> >>>> ? Enterprise University Avenue: Fire. >>>> >>>> ? Goodwill: Property damage. >>>> >>>> In Twin Cities suburbs >>>> ? Target Maplewood: Property damage and looting >>>> >>>> ? The Jewelers Saint Anthony: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? GameStop Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting. >>>> >>>> ? Walmart Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting >>>> >>>> .? T-Mobile Store Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Family Dollar Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Walgreens 63rd and Brooklyn Blvd., Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >>>> >>>> ? Western Service Center, Apple Valley: Property, fire, and water damage. >>>> >>>> Or how about this? >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DarrenJBeattie/status/1268003013425344514?s=19__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIve8BKSBw$ >>>> >>>> This sucks. >>>> >>>> Everyone in the country agreed on Day 1 -- prosecute the cops, mourn for the dead, seek a productive path forward. There was no one left to persuade! On at least this one thing, we were more united than any time in recent memory. >>>> >>>> 7 days later...half of that goodwill, natural fellowship, and brotherhood has been pissed away. >>>> >>>> The sale was already made, but the sellers kept selling and likely blew the deal. >>>> >>>> Sucks. >>>> >>>> Anthony >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, June 3, 2020, David Kellogg > wrote: >>>> >>>> I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd Precinct (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). >>>> >>>> Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive politics--but it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities in the USA. I went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a chain-link fence dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember the column of black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, because it was halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower Hill. >>>> >>>> Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) and financing fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops how to use hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas deployments of the US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, sported a "white power" badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal (but he also said pretty much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack Obama). >>>> >>>> There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. >>>> >>>> (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, but there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIuS37WM0Q$ >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIvy0hnDqA$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. >>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIupXWRG1g$ >>>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu . >>>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200604/e6ed268f/attachment-0003.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Engestrom & Sannino_Studies in Expansive Learning.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 396625 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200604/e6ed268f/attachment-0002.pdf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200604/e6ed268f/attachment-0005.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Jun 4 20:20:17 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 20:20:17 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> Message-ID: Very helpful exchange for bringing theory to bear on exceedingly complex topics Thanks all Mike On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 7:55 PM Richard Beach wrote: > Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive in > activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are > never fixed given that as participants encounter new > contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. > This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms > as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. > > Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires > ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives > given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t > necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be > blocked by a timid political leadership > > . > > For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: > Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: > Foundations, findings and future challenges. *Educational Research > Review, 5*, 1?24. > Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions > for expansivelearning and transformative agency. *Journal of the Learning > Sciences, 25*(4), 599-633. > > > Richard Beach, Professor Emeritus of English Education, University of > Minnesota > rbeach@umn.edu > Websites: Digital writing > > , Media literacy > > , Teaching literature > > , Identity-focused ELA Teaching > > , Common Core State Standards > > , Apps for literacy learning > > , Teaching about climate change > > , Teaching language as action > > > > > On Jun 4, 2020, at 9:21 PM, Anthony Barra wrote: > > Valuable context, Richard. Thank you. > > Very sorry for my ignorance, but would you define or explain the > "expansive learning" concept in a sentence or two (or 3)? You can also > call me a lazy bum and tell me to google around and read up -- but I just > did that and didn't really understand what I read. > > Feel free to ignore this : ) But thanks otherwise, > > Anthony > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 9:11 PM Richard Beach wrote: > >> As someone who?s lived in Minneapolis since the early 1970s, I?d like to >> build on David?s post by providing some historical context. When blacks >> moved from Gary and Chicago to Milwaukee and Minneapolis in the 1960s and >> 1970s, they encountered little or no economic support in terms of jobs or >> housing due to redlining/discrimination. >> >> Since that time, blacks in Minneapolis have experienced little or no >> improvement, as reported by Minnesota Public Radio >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tinyurl.com/y84yp3rs__;!!Mih3wA!Q3C6AWgimPc6rU54K193vMAonmLxRQ8k1cr_DgR7t0dbBzA8DqLp5W-sOgve5bj0KW7uaw$ >> >> >> Minneapolis has the second highest income gap between blacks and whites >> in the country (interestingly enough from an historical perspective, >> Milwaukee has the highest). The median black family in the Twin Cities >> area earns $38,178 a year; less than half of the median white family income >> of $84,459 a year. In 2016, the Twin Cities area black unemployment rate >> was more than three times the white unemployment rate. >> >> According to the most recent census data, the black poverty rate in the >> Twin Cities area was 25.4 percent, which is over four times the white >> poverty rate of 5.9 percent. The Twin Cities area black poverty rate is >> significantly higher than the national black poverty rate of 22 percent, >> while the white poverty rate is significantly lower than the national one >> of 9 percent. >> >> While Minneapolis has the highest percentage of single-family home >> ownership of any city in the country with about three-quarters of white >> families in the Twin Cities own homes, only about one-quarter of black >> families do. The area had a long history where "racial covenants" made it >> hard for blacks to become homebuyers and live in white neighborhoods. >> >> In 2019, the incarceration rate of blacks in the Twin Cities area was 11 >> times that of whites. >> >> The state of Minnesota has one of the nation's worst education >> achievement gaps between blacks and whites. In 2019, it ranked 50th when it >> comes to racial disparities in high school graduation rates. >> >> While the Minneapolis Public Schools are relatively good, schools in >> North Minneapolis located near black neighborhoods have experienced >> enrollment declines since, leading the Minneapolis School Board to pass a >> new plan to bolster enrollments/support for those schools, but budget cuts >> due to the pandemic may undermine some of that. >> >> The University of Minnesota, Minneapolis Park Board, and Minneapolis >> Pubic Schools have all cut ties with the Minneapolis Police Department. >> >> The question arises a from a CHAT perspective on objects/motives driving >> systems, as well as an ?expansive learning? perspective, what new >> objects/motives will arise in the future from the ashes of burned out >> Minneapolis neighborhoods that will undo this history of racist neglect in >> a relatively short time period, particularly when the whole public >> financial system faces decline? >> Richard Beach, Professor Emeritus of English Education, University of >> Minnesota >> rbeach@umn.edu >> Websites: Digital writing >> >> , Media literacy >> >> , Teaching literature >> >> , Identity-focused ELA Teaching >> >> , Common Core State Standards >> >> , Apps for literacy learning >> >> , Teaching about climate change >> >> , Teaching language as action >> >> >> >> On Jun 4, 2020, at 7:47 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >> >> Colin, >> Your post brings to my mind the articles I am receiving daily from >> Academia on embodied cognition, more broadly: embodied, enactive, extended >> and embedded. What you say about the context: "histories and physical >> structures of the landscapes? profiles the cultural and historical >> complexity of countervailing projects as they collide on the street. This >> may be an intellectualized take on what?s going on, but it helps me draw >> value from the articles from Academia. I am waiting for a spate of articles >> that apply the 4Es to the big picture. That would be truly >> cross-disciplinary. >> Henry >> >> On Jun 4, 2020, at 2:28 PM, Colin Dixon wrote: >> >> I think it's also time to recognize that clarifying differences can >> serve to divide, and to legitimize and endorse some voices, >> experiences and expressions, at the expense of others. >> That is a reminder i hear from organizers in oakland, many of whom are >> rejecting - on fact and principle - characterizations of outsiders >> versus locals. Also important are reminders that many outsiders were >> or would be locals, if not for the policies and economics that enforce >> dispossession and instability of communities of color. In other words, >> "f**k your zip code" where 'your' refers to the police, media, who use >> zipcode to understand voice and message. >> >> Peggy's rhyming response to "why the riot gear" shows that the labels >> of 'violent versus non-violent,' 'rally versus protest,' are often not >> very useful when applied to protestors and organizers, but are better >> applied to the interaction between protestors, authorities, other >> players, and various means arrayed by both (or many) sides - not to >> mention the histories and physical structures of the landscapes. This >> way of understanding definitions in terms of interactions, not >> intentions or some other seemingly inherent quality, seems like a good >> place for CHAT's tools. >> >> That said, there are of course differences in intentions, in tone, and >> in message, of public actions. I like knowing when i can bring my >> kids. As Helena mentions, some of these definitions are already coded, >> eg "student-led", and understood by those who have been involved with >> organizing for a while. Clarity in these definitions certainly makes >> it easier for more people (current outsiders) to understand what they >> are supporting and what risks might be, and then to join where they >> feel safe and confident. But again, it raises a question of who these >> definitions are for, how they might be used in ways other than >> intended, and what assumptions underpin them. Who do the definitions >> protect and create safe space for? Who do they leave vulnerable? >> >> Lurking, listening and appreciating, >> - Colin >> >> On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 12:40 PM Helena Worthen >> wrote: >> >> >> Time to clarify the differences among >> >> riot >> protest >> demonstration >> rally >> non-violent direct action >> >> I mention this because there are now specific events planned to be held >> in appropriate locations for different purposes. For example, you might >> bring your elementary school-age kids to a rally, or even a demonstration, >> but not to a non-violent direct action event. I am seeing demonstrations >> in my area planned to be safe for specific age groups - a call for a >> demonstration, for example, identified as ?student-led." >> >> >> Helena Worthen >> helenaworthen@gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:04 PM, Peg Griffin, Ph.D. >> wrote: >> >> BTW, clearly the answer to the chant had to be: ?We are here in riot gear >> to get you to start a riot, dear.? >> >> >> From: Peg Griffin, Ph.D. [mailto:Peg.Griffin@att.net] >> Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 10:57 PM >> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' >> Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >> >> May, 3, 2020, DC, we march and chant, >> ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? >> >> We stop for more testimonials about our dead and endangered. >> We march and chant again: >> ?Why are you in riot gear, there?s no riot here.? >> >> More and more armed active duty military move closer to us, now behind >> us. Edging in, making our group, two groups. >> >> Our young leaders know that move and know what we can do next? >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >> Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 9:00 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >> >> You might lay out the program of a second strike for the people of >> Minneapolis, David. >> It would deflect from stereotypes about what the range of demands can be. >> >> Of course Anthony was not throwing a sucker punch. But some ones are >> throwing sucker punches by using the >> peaceful rallies as a pretext for violence. At the moment (or last time I >> looked) analysts watching >> video are trying to figure out who is coming to protests with duffle bags >> full of bats. And everyone >> is scared witless by the fear of what Trump is doing with almost no >> opposition from the Republican >> Senate. >> >> It just all stinks of 1937-1939 to me. >> I'm a very premature antifacist by birth. With Global Warming and >> Covid-19 thrown in. >> >> mike >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:45 PM David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >> Anthony: >> >> When I was a kid, there was a street fighting tactic called "sucker >> punching". You waltz up to your sucker, you point vaguely over his >> shoulder--suckers are invariably male--and you say something like "Wow! >> Look at that!" "Watch out!" or "Hey--what's over there?". Then as the >> sucker turns his head, ya let him have it. >> >> I would characterize ALL looting as a kind of "sucker punching", a kind >> of whataboutism"--a flash-bang distraction, a way of changing the subject. >> I don't just mean what Biden, Cuomo, and this morning President Obama >> meant--that is, that looting is what allows Mr. Trump to bluster and bellow >> and get everybody to forget the murders of black people. He's gonna do that >> anyway, because it's all he knows how to do. >> >> I mean that looting doesn't address the police who murdered and who >> murder with impunity, doesn't redress the doctrine of "Qualified Immunity" >> brought in by the Supreme Court to protect killer cops, and doesn't >> eliminate the paramilitary "Police Union" in Minneapolis which has >> SUCCESSFULLY defended the killers of Philando Castile and Jamar Clark. >> >> Now I assume you are not trying to sucker punch me--you know I'm no >> sucker. I assume that the long, informative list of looted venues you have >> supplied (many names I recognize from my slot-car racing, milk-shake >> sipping, mispent youth) is not trying to change the topic of this thread. I >> think it is a genuine--nay, a well-appreciated--attempt, to show me the >> scope of the problem. >> >> But I suspect you are not really aware that what you have actually done >> is to make, even more eloquently than I could have done, the case for a >> second Minneapolis general strike. >> A second Minneapolis General Strike would offer special protection to >> businesses run by community members the way that no National Guard or >> military repression can. In the First Minneapolis General strike, strike >> committees were community members. >> A second Minneapolis General Strike would prevent the spread of Covid 19 >> in a way that "reopening" small businesses has imperilled. (Today the >> Swedes admitted that the Swedish model was a mistake) >> A second Minneapolis General Strike would render the curfew irrelevant. >> Only essential neighborhood businesses, not milk shake parlors and slot car >> race tracks, would be allowed to stay open. >> A second Minneapolis General Strike would allow a democratically elected >> strike committee to clearly distinguish between proportionate responses on >> the one hand and whataboutism and sucker-punching small business on the >> other. >> >> (Why can't Minnesotans rely on the democratically elected >> Democratic-Farmer-Labor city and state adminstration to do that? I'm glad >> you asked. For the same reason that Derek Chauvin had to be arrested by the >> state authorities and not by the Hennepin County cop shop--there is already >> a state of dual power in Minnesota, but it is led by Bob Kroll and his >> lawless, orderless "law-and-order" "Police Federation". Can we stop using >> the term "law enforcement" now?) >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIuS37WM0Q$ >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works >> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIvy0hnDqA$ >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 8:49 AM Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >> David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly >> characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of the >> proportionate response too: >> >> In Minneapolis >> ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. >> >> ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property damage >> and looted. >> >> ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. >> >> ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. >> >> ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. >> >> ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage. >> >> ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water damage. >> >> ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. >> >> ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and looting. >> >> ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. >> >> ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. >> >> ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. >> >> ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. >> >> ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door >> smashed >> >> ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed. >> >> ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. >> >> ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property damage. >> >> ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage >> >> ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage >> >> ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage >> >> ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage >> >> ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting >> >> ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage >> >> ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting >> >> ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire >> >> ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage >> >> ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting >> >> ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. >> >> ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. >> >> ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. >> >> ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage >> >> ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. >> >> ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: Property >> damage and looting. >> >> ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. >> >> ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. >> >> ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. >> >> ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. >> >> ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. >> >> ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage >> >> ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. >> >> ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and looting. >> >> ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and looting. >> >> ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. >> >> ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. >> >> ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. >> >> ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. >> >> ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window >> >> ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. >> >> ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. >> >> ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. >> >> ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage and >> looting. >> >> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. >> >> ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Tibet Store: Property damage. >> >> ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. >> >> ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. >> >> ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. >> >> ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. >> >> ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. >> >> ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, graffiti and >> some interior damage. >> >> ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. >> >> ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. >> >> ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. >> >> ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >> >> ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. >> >> ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. >> >> ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. >> >> ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage >> >> ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. >> >> ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. >> >> ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. >> >> ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. >> >> ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. >> >> ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. >> >> ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. >> >> ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. >> >> ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire >> >> ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, extensive fire >> damage. >> >> ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire damage. >> >> ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. >> >> ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. >> >> ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. >> >> ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and 29th: >> Fire, destroyed. >> >> ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. >> >> ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. >> >> ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. >> >> ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. >> >> Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters >> >> ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. >> >> ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. >> >> ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property damage, >> looting. >> >> ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle smashed >> through windows. >> >> ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. >> >> ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. >> >> ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. >> >> ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti. >> >> ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle stolen. >> >> ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. >> >> ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft of ATM. >> >> ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. >> >> Seward Community Co-op, Facebook >> >> ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. >> >> ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. >> >> ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. >> >> ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> Spencer Wallman >> >> ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. >> >> ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. >> >> ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. >> >> ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. >> >> ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. >> >> ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. >> >> ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting >> >> ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. >> >> ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. >> >> ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. >> >> ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. >> >> ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. >> >> ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. >> >> ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed report of >> looting, property damage. >> >> ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. >> >> ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. >> >> ? Bondesque: Property damage. >> >> In St. Paul >> ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property damage >> and looting. >> >> ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. >> >> ? Turf Club: Property damage. >> >> ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. >> >> ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. >> >> ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage >> >> ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. >> >> ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. >> >> ? To New York Midway: Property damage. >> >> ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. >> >> ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. >> >> ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage >> >> ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire. >> >> ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage >> >> ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. >> >> ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. >> >> ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, graffiti. >> >> ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. >> >> ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. >> >> ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. >> >> ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. >> >> ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. >> >> ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. >> >> ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. >> >> ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. >> >> ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. >> >> ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. >> >> ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. >> >> ? The Fixery, Highland: Property damage. >> >> ? Bole Ethiopian Restaurant: Fire. >> >> ? Enterprise University Avenue: Fire. >> >> ? Goodwill: Property damage. >> >> In Twin Cities suburbs >> ? Target Maplewood: Property damage and looting >> >> ? The Jewelers Saint Anthony: Property damage. >> >> ? GameStop Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting. >> >> ? Walmart Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting >> >> .? T-Mobile Store Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >> >> ? Family Dollar Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >> >> ? Walgreens 63rd and Brooklyn Blvd., Brooklyn Center: Property damage. >> >> ? Western Service Center, Apple Valley: Property, fire, and water damage. >> >> Or how about this? >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DarrenJBeattie/status/1268003013425344514?s=19__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIve8BKSBw$ >> >> This sucks. >> >> Everyone in the country agreed on Day 1 -- prosecute the cops, mourn for >> the dead, seek a productive path forward. There was no one left to >> persuade! On at least this one thing, we were more united than any time in >> recent memory. >> >> 7 days later...half of that goodwill, natural fellowship, and brotherhood >> has been pissed away. >> >> The sale was already made, but the sellers kept selling and likely blew >> the deal. >> >> Sucks. >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, June 3, 2020, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd Precinct >> (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely >> proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). >> >> Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive >> politics--but it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities >> in the USA. I went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a >> chain-link fence dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember >> the column of black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, >> because it was halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower >> Hill. >> >> Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a >> paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the >> Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black >> people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) and financing >> fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops how to use >> hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas deployments of the >> US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, sported a "white power" >> badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal (but he also said pretty >> much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack Obama). >> >> There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union >> launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical >> Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed >> the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group >> of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized >> the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the >> population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in >> mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder >> if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. >> >> (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, but >> there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIuS37WM0Q$ >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works >> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIvy0hnDqA$ >> >> >> >> -- >> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and >> it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of >> rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the >> same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. >> --------------------------------------------------- >> Cultural Praxis Website: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QGu1NsodrpUwqCsyw3OiwsdEtSkTCCVsgct__5IiDOHxt42kOerJlOpRbWX2nIupXWRG1g$ >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Q3C6AWgimPc6rU54K193vMAonmLxRQ8k1cr_DgR7t0dbBzA8DqLp5W-sOgve5bitPRquCQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200604/9444c779/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Fri Jun 5 02:27:54 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 05:27:54 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> Message-ID: Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know of both. On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach wrote: > Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive in > activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are > never fixed given that as participants encounter new > contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. > This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms > as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. > > Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires > ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives > given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t > necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be > blocked by a timid political leadership > > . > > For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: > Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: > Foundations, findings and future challenges. *Educational Research > Review, 5*, 1?24. > Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions > for expansivelearning and transformative agency. *Journal of the Learning > Sciences, 25*(4), 599-633. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200605/1fd10b23/attachment.html From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Fri Jun 5 03:54:10 2020 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 13:54:10 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Jules Payot - The Education of the Will Message-ID: Can I ask some short comments on this book please? Is this one of the best in the field? Any other and better? Is there a comment of Vygotsky on this book? Any critique from a Marxist dialectical perspective? How distanced was Payot to Marxism? It seems to me that the education of the will is quite actual in the education of today's youth at this stage of capitalism/imperialism. Thanks. Ulvi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200605/96fefc9a/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: (1) Jules Payot - The Education of the Will(1).pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 6069383 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200605/96fefc9a/attachment-0001.pdf From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Fri Jun 5 04:15:32 2020 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 14:15:32 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Jules Payot - The Education of the Will In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I simply noticed that he has colonialist tendencies about redskins preferring extermination to "regular labour" he says. 5 Haz 2020 Cum 13:54 tarihinde Ulvi ??il ?unu yazd?: > > Can I ask some short comments on this book please? > > Is this one of the best in the field? Any other and better? > > Is there a comment of Vygotsky on this book? > > Any critique from a Marxist dialectical perspective? How distanced was > Payot to Marxism? > > It seems to me that the education of the will is quite actual in the > education of today's youth at this stage of capitalism/imperialism. > > Thanks. > > Ulvi > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200605/670faa5b/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Fri Jun 5 06:40:39 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 09:40:39 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> Message-ID: I, too, like avoiding politics here, but this will be a social analysis/dialectics question, piggybacking on a fair amount of the rest of this "Minneapolis" thread. So don't ban me! : ) Rhetorical hyperbole aside, is this the biggest Straw Man of all time, or are a percentage of the following sentences true? My guess is: both. (At first I thought that everyone here would reflexively reject and dismiss this Social Analysis out of hand - and understandably too, but now I'm wondering if some parts of it might be acknowledged, unapologetically, as in fact correct.) "This is about Donald Trump. Of course it is. We just couldn't see it. For normal people, Donald Trump is a president: you may like him, you may not like him, but either way there will be another president at some point, and we will move on as we always have. But for Donald Trump's enemies: there is nothing else. Everything is about Trump; everything. Donald Trump defines their friendships, their careers, their marriages. Donald Trump affects how they raise their children. Trump occupies the very center of their lives. As long as Donald Trump remains in the White House, they feel powerless and diminished and panicked, and they cannot be happy. In everything they do, their overriding goal is to remove Donald Trump from office. And that's exactly what they're trying to do now. That's what these riots are about. The most privileged in our society are using the most desperate in our society to seize power from everyone else. Got that? That's the nub of it: the most privileged are using the most desperate to seize power from the rest of us. They are not seeking racial justice. If they were seeking racial justice, they wouldn't be denouncing their fellow Americans for their race - which they are. It has nothing to do with it. What they are seeking is total control of the country. And it goes without saying that none of this has anything to do with George Floyd. Shame on those who pretended that it did. Those who fell for the lie, and those who knew better but played along because they are cowards." Souce: Tucker Carlson, "Liberal activists now want to 'defund the police'" (P.S. My own personal utopia would be to synthesize the very best ideas of the left with the very best of the right, but alas, that is by definition a dream, by definition "no place.") Thanks in advance for any thoughts (and yes, this thread is America-centric, starting from post #1 about the great city of Minneapolis -- sorry to those understandably not interested). Anthony On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 5:27 AM Anthony Barra wrote: > Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know > of both. > > > > > > On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach wrote: > >> Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive >> in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are >> never fixed given that as participants encounter new >> contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. >> This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms >> as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. >> >> Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires >> ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives >> given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t >> necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be >> blocked by a timid political leadership >> >> . >> >> For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: >> Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: >> Foundations, findings and future challenges. *Educational Research >> Review, 5*, 1?24. >> Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions >> for expansivelearning and transformative agency. *Journal of the >> Learning Sciences, 25*(4), 599-633. >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200605/85d791df/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Fri Jun 5 07:00:11 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 09:00:11 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> Message-ID: <0690FBAF-D842-4E6D-9D96-E314F4FB028E@cantab.net> Help me understand, Anthony, why someone would *not* want to remove Trump? Martin > On Jun 5, 2020, at 8:40 AM, Anthony Barra wrote: > > I, too, like avoiding politics here, but this will be a social analysis/dialectics question, piggybacking on a fair amount of the rest of this "Minneapolis" thread. So don't ban me! : ) > > > Rhetorical hyperbole aside, is this the biggest Straw Man of all time, or are a percentage of the following sentences true? My guess is: both. (At first I thought that everyone here would reflexively reject and dismiss this Social Analysis out of hand - and understandably too, but now I'm wondering if some parts of it might be acknowledged, unapologetically, as in fact correct.) > > "This is about Donald Trump. Of course it is. We just couldn't see it. For normal people, Donald Trump is a president: you may like him, you may not like him, but either way there will be another president at some point, and we will move on as we always have. But for Donald Trump's enemies: there is nothing else. Everything is about Trump; everything. Donald Trump defines their friendships, their careers, their marriages. Donald Trump affects how they raise their children. Trump occupies the very center of their lives. As long as Donald Trump remains in the White House, they feel powerless and diminished and panicked, and they cannot be happy. > > In everything they do, their overriding goal is to remove Donald Trump from office. And that's exactly what they're trying to do now. That's what these riots are about. > > The most privileged in our society are using the most desperate in our society to seize power from everyone else. Got that? That's the nub of it: the most privileged are using the most desperate to seize power from the rest of us. They are not seeking racial justice. If they were seeking racial justice, they wouldn't be denouncing their fellow Americans for their race - which they are. It has nothing to do with it. What they are seeking is total control of the country. And it goes without saying that none of this has anything to do with George Floyd. Shame on those who pretended that it did. Those who fell for the lie, and those who knew better but played along because they are cowards." > > Souce: Tucker Carlson, "Liberal activists now want to 'defund the police'" > > (P.S. My own personal utopia would be to synthesize the very best ideas of the left with the very best of the right, but alas, that is by definition a dream, by definition "no place.") > > Thanks in advance for any thoughts (and yes, this thread is America-centric, starting from post #1 about the great city of Minneapolis -- sorry to those understandably not interested). > > Anthony > > > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 5:27 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know of both. > > > > > > On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach > wrote: > Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are never fixed given that as participants encounter new contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. > > Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be blocked by a timid political leadership . > > For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: > Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: Foundations, findings and future challenges. Educational Research Review, 5, 1?24. > Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions for expansivelearning and transformative agency. Journal of the Learning Sciences, 25(4), 599-633. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200605/9f4317ec/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Fri Jun 5 07:03:54 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 00:03:54 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> Message-ID: Anthony, American cops were killing people before Trump and they'll most likely still be killing people after Trump. There've been plenty of pandemics before Trump and there will be more in the future. And you want to make this about Trump??! The only reason Trump is relevant to these big social problems is that he's irrelevant to them but he's the President.? Hard to avoid that. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 5/06/2020 11:40 pm, Anthony Barra wrote: > I, too, like avoiding politics here, but this will be a > social analysis/dialectics question, piggybacking on a > fair amount of the rest of this "Minneapolis" thread.? So > don't ban me! : ) > > > Rhetorical hyperbole aside, is this the biggest Straw Man > of all time, or are a percentage of the following > sentences true? My guess is: both. (At first I thought > that everyone here would reflexively reject and dismiss > this Social Analysis out of hand - and understandably too, > but now I'm wondering if some parts of it might be > acknowledged, unapologetically, as in fact correct.) > > "This is about Donald Trump. Of course it is. We just > couldn't see it. For normal people, Donald Trump is a > president: you may like him, you may not like him, but > either way there will be another?president at some point, > and we will move on as we always have.? But for Donald > Trump's enemies: there is nothing else. Everything is > about Trump; everything. Donald Trump defines their > friendships, their careers, their marriages. Donald Trump > affects how they raise their children. Trump occupies the > very center of their lives. As long as Donald Trump > remains in the White House, they feel powerless and > diminished and panicked, and they cannot be happy. > > In everything they do, their overriding goal is to remove > Donald Trump from office. And that's exactly what they're > trying to do now. That's what these riots are about. > > The most privileged in our society are using the most > desperate in our society to seize power from everyone > else. Got that? That's the nub of it: the most privileged > are using the most desperate to seize power from the rest > of us. They are not seeking racial justice. If they were > seeking racial justice, they wouldn't be denouncing their > fellow Americans for their race - which they are. It has > nothing to do with it. What they are seeking is total > control of the country. And it goes without saying that > none of this has anything to do with George Floyd. Shame > on those who pretended that it did. Those who fell for the > lie, and those who knew better but played along because > they are cowards." > > Souce: Tucker Carlson, "Liberal activists now want to > 'defund the police'" > > (P.S. My own personal utopia would be to synthesize the > very best ideas of the left with the very best of the > right, but alas, that is by definition a dream, by > definition "no place.") > > Thanks in advance for any thoughts (and yes, this thread > is America-centric, starting from post #1 about the great > city of Minneapolis -- sorry to those understandably not > interested). > > Anthony > > > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 5:27 AM Anthony Barra > > > wrote: > > Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to > dialectics, little I know of both. > > > > > > On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach > > wrote: > > Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? > posits that objects/motive in activity are ideally > always open to change/transformation?that they are > never fixed given that as participants encounter > new contradictions/challenges, they ?learn > to?/formulate new objects/motives. This requires > learners to be open to exploring optional > actions/tools/norms as they redefine/revise their > ever expanding objects/motives. > > Coping with decades-long racist practices in > Minneapolis, requires ?expansive learning? to > continually experiment with new objects/motives > given that some of the tools/practices attempted > in the past haven?t necessarily worked, although > attempts were made to do so, only to be blocked by > a timid political leadership > . > > > For more on expansive learning theory, see > attached reports: > Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of > expansive learning: Foundations, findings and > future challenges. /Educational Research Review, > 5/, 1?24. > Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). > Formative interventions for expansivelearning and > transformative agency. /Journal of the Learning > Sciences, 25/(4), 599-633. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200606/142717df/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Fri Jun 5 07:09:08 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 10:09:08 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <0690FBAF-D842-4E6D-9D96-E314F4FB028E@cantab.net> References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <0690FBAF-D842-4E6D-9D96-E314F4FB028E@cantab.net> Message-ID: You have literally no contacts in your circle who can answer that? I'm happy to help, but first you have to answer my question ; ) (P.S. I think this work of yours is fantastic, Martin: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKW9zWVhlZg7RxuL4PufCosXdZsfWM-QM__;!!Mih3wA!Qa9NCdHOLJ6KM92V9Cs_tris3ouJaW3l-da38mar4q0HS5rzh546N8BC-o_zb6Mpue-t9g$ -- if I can later, I'll try to cite your slides directly in an attempt to answer your question. Believe it or not, I've done just that in private conversations. Don't worry, you were not implicated in any way!) Anthony On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 10:03 AM Martin Packer wrote: > Help me understand, Anthony, why someone would *not* want to remove Trump? > > Martin > > > > > On Jun 5, 2020, at 8:40 AM, Anthony Barra wrote: > > I, too, like avoiding politics here, but this will be a social > analysis/dialectics question, piggybacking on a fair amount of the rest of > this "Minneapolis" thread. So don't ban me! : ) > > > Rhetorical hyperbole aside, is this the biggest Straw Man of all time, or > are a percentage of the following sentences true? My guess is: both. (At > first I thought that everyone here would reflexively reject and dismiss > this Social Analysis out of hand - and understandably too, but now I'm > wondering if some parts of it might be acknowledged, unapologetically, as > in fact correct.) > > "This is about Donald Trump. Of course it is. We just couldn't see it. For > normal people, Donald Trump is a president: you may like him, you may not > like him, but either way there will be another president at some point, and > we will move on as we always have. But for Donald Trump's enemies: there > is nothing else. Everything is about Trump; everything. Donald Trump > defines their friendships, their careers, their marriages. Donald Trump > affects how they raise their children. Trump occupies the very center of > their lives. As long as Donald Trump remains in the White House, they feel > powerless and diminished and panicked, and they cannot be happy. > > In everything they do, their overriding goal is to remove Donald Trump > from office. And that's exactly what they're trying to do now. That's what > these riots are about. > > The most privileged in our society are using the most desperate in our > society to seize power from everyone else. Got that? That's the nub of it: > the most privileged are using the most desperate to seize power from the > rest of us. They are not seeking racial justice. If they were seeking > racial justice, they wouldn't be denouncing their fellow Americans for > their race - which they are. It has nothing to do with it. What they are > seeking is total control of the country. And it goes without saying that > none of this has anything to do with George Floyd. Shame on those who > pretended that it did. Those who fell for the lie, and those who knew > better but played along because they are cowards." > > Souce: Tucker Carlson, "Liberal activists now want to 'defund the police'" > > (P.S. My own personal utopia would be to synthesize the very best ideas of > the left with the very best of the right, but alas, that is by definition a > dream, by definition "no place.") > > Thanks in advance for any thoughts (and yes, this thread is > America-centric, starting from post #1 about the great city of Minneapolis > -- sorry to those understandably not interested). > > Anthony > > > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 5:27 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know >> of both. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach wrote: >> >>> Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive >>> in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are >>> never fixed given that as participants encounter new >>> contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. >>> This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms >>> as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. >>> >>> Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires >>> ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives >>> given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t >>> necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be >>> blocked by a timid political leadership >>> >>> . >>> >>> For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: >>> Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: >>> Foundations, findings and future challenges. *Educational Research >>> Review, 5*, 1?24. >>> Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions >>> for expansivelearning and transformative agency. *Journal of the >>> Learning Sciences, 25*(4), 599-633. >>> >>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200605/ae83b39b/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Fri Jun 5 07:11:23 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 10:11:23 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> Message-ID: For years, Andy, you've been a breath of fresh air - even, maybe especially - when we are not aligned. Thanks. On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 10:06 AM Andy Blunden wrote: > Anthony, American cops were killing people before Trump and they'll most > likely still be killing people after Trump. There've been plenty of > pandemics before Trump and there will be more in the future. And you want > to make this about Trump??! The only reason Trump is relevant to these big > social problems is that he's irrelevant to them but he's the President. > Hard to avoid that. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 5/06/2020 11:40 pm, Anthony Barra wrote: > > I, too, like avoiding politics here, but this will be a social > analysis/dialectics question, piggybacking on a fair amount of the rest of > this "Minneapolis" thread. So don't ban me! : ) > > > Rhetorical hyperbole aside, is this the biggest Straw Man of all time, or > are a percentage of the following sentences true? My guess is: both. (At > first I thought that everyone here would reflexively reject and dismiss > this Social Analysis out of hand - and understandably too, but now I'm > wondering if some parts of it might be acknowledged, unapologetically, as > in fact correct.) > > "This is about Donald Trump. Of course it is. We just couldn't see it. For > normal people, Donald Trump is a president: you may like him, you may not > like him, but either way there will be another president at some point, and > we will move on as we always have. But for Donald Trump's enemies: there > is nothing else. Everything is about Trump; everything. Donald Trump > defines their friendships, their careers, their marriages. Donald Trump > affects how they raise their children. Trump occupies the very center of > their lives. As long as Donald Trump remains in the White House, they feel > powerless and diminished and panicked, and they cannot be happy. > > In everything they do, their overriding goal is to remove Donald Trump > from office. And that's exactly what they're trying to do now. That's what > these riots are about. > > The most privileged in our society are using the most desperate in our > society to seize power from everyone else. Got that? That's the nub of it: > the most privileged are using the most desperate to seize power from the > rest of us. They are not seeking racial justice. If they were seeking > racial justice, they wouldn't be denouncing their fellow Americans for > their race - which they are. It has nothing to do with it. What they are > seeking is total control of the country. And it goes without saying that > none of this has anything to do with George Floyd. Shame on those who > pretended that it did. Those who fell for the lie, and those who knew > better but played along because they are cowards." > > Souce: Tucker Carlson, "Liberal activists now want to 'defund the police'" > > (P.S. My own personal utopia would be to synthesize the very best ideas of > the left with the very best of the right, but alas, that is by definition a > dream, by definition "no place.") > > Thanks in advance for any thoughts (and yes, this thread is > America-centric, starting from post #1 about the great city of Minneapolis > -- sorry to those understandably not interested). > > Anthony > > > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 5:27 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know >> of both. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach wrote: >> >>> Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive >>> in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are >>> never fixed given that as participants encounter new >>> contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. >>> This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms >>> as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. >>> >>> Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires >>> ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives >>> given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t >>> necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be >>> blocked by a timid political leadership >>> >>> . >>> >>> For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: >>> Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: >>> Foundations, findings and future challenges. *Educational Research >>> Review, 5*, 1?24. >>> Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions >>> for expansivelearning and transformative agency. *Journal of the >>> Learning Sciences, 25*(4), 599-633. >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200605/6c3cb67d/attachment.html From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Fri Jun 5 07:11:57 2020 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 17:11:57 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> Message-ID: Obama was irrelevant too to these social problems and world left and a strong part of civilized world were contaminated by Obama mania. This is a mechanism of capitalism to deceive masses since Louis Blanc in 1848. Some bush, then some obama, then some trump. Macron to prevent Le Pen. Corbyn to prevent Johnson. The same everywhere. 5 Haz 2020 Cum 17:06 tarihinde Andy Blunden ?unu yazd?: > Anthony, American cops were killing people before Trump and they'll most > likely still be killing people after Trump. There've been plenty of > pandemics before Trump and there will be more in the future. And you want > to make this about Trump??! The only reason Trump is relevant to these big > social problems is that he's irrelevant to them but he's the President. > Hard to avoid that. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 5/06/2020 11:40 pm, Anthony Barra wrote: > > I, too, like avoiding politics here, but this will be a social > analysis/dialectics question, piggybacking on a fair amount of the rest of > this "Minneapolis" thread. So don't ban me! : ) > > > Rhetorical hyperbole aside, is this the biggest Straw Man of all time, or > are a percentage of the following sentences true? My guess is: both. (At > first I thought that everyone here would reflexively reject and dismiss > this Social Analysis out of hand - and understandably too, but now I'm > wondering if some parts of it might be acknowledged, unapologetically, as > in fact correct.) > > "This is about Donald Trump. Of course it is. We just couldn't see it. For > normal people, Donald Trump is a president: you may like him, you may not > like him, but either way there will be another president at some point, and > we will move on as we always have. But for Donald Trump's enemies: there > is nothing else. Everything is about Trump; everything. Donald Trump > defines their friendships, their careers, their marriages. Donald Trump > affects how they raise their children. Trump occupies the very center of > their lives. As long as Donald Trump remains in the White House, they feel > powerless and diminished and panicked, and they cannot be happy. > > In everything they do, their overriding goal is to remove Donald Trump > from office. And that's exactly what they're trying to do now. That's what > these riots are about. > > The most privileged in our society are using the most desperate in our > society to seize power from everyone else. Got that? That's the nub of it: > the most privileged are using the most desperate to seize power from the > rest of us. They are not seeking racial justice. If they were seeking > racial justice, they wouldn't be denouncing their fellow Americans for > their race - which they are. It has nothing to do with it. What they are > seeking is total control of the country. And it goes without saying that > none of this has anything to do with George Floyd. Shame on those who > pretended that it did. Those who fell for the lie, and those who knew > better but played along because they are cowards." > > Souce: Tucker Carlson, "Liberal activists now want to 'defund the police'" > > (P.S. My own personal utopia would be to synthesize the very best ideas of > the left with the very best of the right, but alas, that is by definition a > dream, by definition "no place.") > > Thanks in advance for any thoughts (and yes, this thread is > America-centric, starting from post #1 about the great city of Minneapolis > -- sorry to those understandably not interested). > > Anthony > > > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 5:27 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know >> of both. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach wrote: >> >>> Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive >>> in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are >>> never fixed given that as participants encounter new >>> contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. >>> This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms >>> as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. >>> >>> Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires >>> ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives >>> given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t >>> necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be >>> blocked by a timid political leadership >>> >>> . >>> >>> For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: >>> Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: >>> Foundations, findings and future challenges. *Educational Research >>> Review, 5*, 1?24. >>> Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions >>> for expansivelearning and transformative agency. *Journal of the >>> Learning Sciences, 25*(4), 599-633. >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200605/09fdd2f5/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Fri Jun 5 07:28:02 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 09:28:02 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <0690FBAF-D842-4E6D-9D96-E314F4FB028E@cantab.net> Message-ID: <778D8581-3B36-45E3-824F-446B83CB8775@cantab.net> Anthony, the comments by Tucker Carlson that you cite make it sound as though people simply dislike Trump. That they are offended, perhaps, by the color his hair. Seems to me, the efforts to ensure that Trump doesn?t continue for a second term are efforts to achieve a larger goal. That goal might be? - that the US support once again the World Health Organization - that the US take the lead in responding to environmental damage - that immigrants be treated humanely - that the Justice Department be independent - that US diplomats not be exploited - that the military not be deployed against American citizens - and the list goes on. Of course you might, and probably do, disagree with the legitimacy of any or all of these goals. But they strike me as concerns which can validly motivate questions about the competence of a presidency. At least, no one is questioning where Trump was born. Martin > On Jun 5, 2020, at 9:09 AM, Anthony Barra wrote: > > You have literally no contacts in your circle who can answer that? I'm happy to help, but first you have to answer my question ; ) > > (P.S. I think this work of yours is fantastic, Martin: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKW9zWVhlZg7RxuL4PufCosXdZsfWM-QM__;!!Mih3wA!UtXjrgYEBxrqoKzlZfBNogVwDzUrYKq7LFbY7N3e9LtkLRuyjIisFnAdMGTIfY1wpBn6Fw$ -- if I can later, I'll try to cite your slides directly in an attempt to answer your question. Believe it or not, I've done just that in private conversations. Don't worry, you were not implicated in any way!) > > Anthony > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 10:03 AM Martin Packer > wrote: > Help me understand, Anthony, why someone would *not* want to remove Trump? > > Martin > > > > >> On Jun 5, 2020, at 8:40 AM, Anthony Barra > wrote: >> >> I, too, like avoiding politics here, but this will be a social analysis/dialectics question, piggybacking on a fair amount of the rest of this "Minneapolis" thread. So don't ban me! : ) >> >> >> Rhetorical hyperbole aside, is this the biggest Straw Man of all time, or are a percentage of the following sentences true? My guess is: both. (At first I thought that everyone here would reflexively reject and dismiss this Social Analysis out of hand - and understandably too, but now I'm wondering if some parts of it might be acknowledged, unapologetically, as in fact correct.) >> >> "This is about Donald Trump. Of course it is. We just couldn't see it. For normal people, Donald Trump is a president: you may like him, you may not like him, but either way there will be another president at some point, and we will move on as we always have. But for Donald Trump's enemies: there is nothing else. Everything is about Trump; everything. Donald Trump defines their friendships, their careers, their marriages. Donald Trump affects how they raise their children. Trump occupies the very center of their lives. As long as Donald Trump remains in the White House, they feel powerless and diminished and panicked, and they cannot be happy. >> >> In everything they do, their overriding goal is to remove Donald Trump from office. And that's exactly what they're trying to do now. That's what these riots are about. >> >> The most privileged in our society are using the most desperate in our society to seize power from everyone else. Got that? That's the nub of it: the most privileged are using the most desperate to seize power from the rest of us. They are not seeking racial justice. If they were seeking racial justice, they wouldn't be denouncing their fellow Americans for their race - which they are. It has nothing to do with it. What they are seeking is total control of the country. And it goes without saying that none of this has anything to do with George Floyd. Shame on those who pretended that it did. Those who fell for the lie, and those who knew better but played along because they are cowards." >> >> Souce: Tucker Carlson, "Liberal activists now want to 'defund the police'" >> >> (P.S. My own personal utopia would be to synthesize the very best ideas of the left with the very best of the right, but alas, that is by definition a dream, by definition "no place.") >> >> Thanks in advance for any thoughts (and yes, this thread is America-centric, starting from post #1 about the great city of Minneapolis -- sorry to those understandably not interested). >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 5:27 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: >> Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know of both. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach > wrote: >> Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are never fixed given that as participants encounter new contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. >> >> Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be blocked by a timid political leadership . >> >> For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: >> Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: Foundations, findings and future challenges. Educational Research Review, 5, 1?24. >> Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions for expansivelearning and transformative agency. Journal of the Learning Sciences, 25(4), 599-633. >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200605/4b358015/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Fri Jun 5 07:32:57 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 10:32:57 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> Message-ID: Could be, Ulvi. ...and likely some more trump, largely due to excesses of the left (e.g., abolish police; e.g., https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/mn0cqz__;!!Mih3wA!W9WzUcyeOYdUjWflg1lfWqLv5KemYr1G5d_RxTUPtVH0vnWMIVeJQAjXHKzV4ZVfiuCsNQ$ -- that's our foremost intellectual on the left; my cousin on the right). This is part 1 of your answer, Martin. Overreactions abound. Ulvi -- some of my friends on the political right have similar explanations as you, re: grand mechanisms deceiving the masses. They just have a different culprit. I don't who is closer to accurate - my guess is neither of you - but what is interesting is the similarity. And even if inaccurate, it is quite soothing (in that enraging kind of way) the have a perpetual scapegoat for all things complex, confusing, and/or bad. This isn't even a criticism. More of an observation. In some ways, an observation of shared humanity : ) Personally, I think there's a lot of partial accuracy floating around. Tucker Carlson has some shades of truth in his "deception by the cultural marxists" theory; you probably have some slivers of truth in your "deception by capitalism" theory -- in both cases, slivers of truth are massively seductive, even if flat wrong or, to be more charitable, unknowable. To all: I'm sorry for posting so much here lately. Blame it on social distancing and the perils of working from home. On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 10:15 AM Ulvi ??il wrote: > Obama was irrelevant too to these social problems and world left and a > strong part of civilized world were contaminated by Obama mania. > This is a mechanism of capitalism to deceive masses since Louis Blanc in > 1848. > Some bush, then some obama, then some trump. > Macron to prevent Le Pen. > Corbyn to prevent Johnson. > The same everywhere. > > 5 Haz 2020 Cum 17:06 tarihinde Andy Blunden ?unu > yazd?: > >> Anthony, American cops were killing people before Trump and they'll most >> likely still be killing people after Trump. There've been plenty of >> pandemics before Trump and there will be more in the future. And you want >> to make this about Trump??! The only reason Trump is relevant to these big >> social problems is that he's irrelevant to them but he's the President. >> Hard to avoid that. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 5/06/2020 11:40 pm, Anthony Barra wrote: >> >> I, too, like avoiding politics here, but this will be a social >> analysis/dialectics question, piggybacking on a fair amount of the rest of >> this "Minneapolis" thread. So don't ban me! : ) >> >> >> Rhetorical hyperbole aside, is this the biggest Straw Man of all time, or >> are a percentage of the following sentences true? My guess is: both. (At >> first I thought that everyone here would reflexively reject and dismiss >> this Social Analysis out of hand - and understandably too, but now I'm >> wondering if some parts of it might be acknowledged, unapologetically, as >> in fact correct.) >> >> "This is about Donald Trump. Of course it is. We just couldn't see it. >> For normal people, Donald Trump is a president: you may like him, you may >> not like him, but either way there will be another president at some point, >> and we will move on as we always have. But for Donald Trump's enemies: >> there is nothing else. Everything is about Trump; everything. Donald Trump >> defines their friendships, their careers, their marriages. Donald Trump >> affects how they raise their children. Trump occupies the very center of >> their lives. As long as Donald Trump remains in the White House, they feel >> powerless and diminished and panicked, and they cannot be happy. >> >> In everything they do, their overriding goal is to remove Donald Trump >> from office. And that's exactly what they're trying to do now. That's what >> these riots are about. >> >> The most privileged in our society are using the most desperate in our >> society to seize power from everyone else. Got that? That's the nub of it: >> the most privileged are using the most desperate to seize power from the >> rest of us. They are not seeking racial justice. If they were seeking >> racial justice, they wouldn't be denouncing their fellow Americans for >> their race - which they are. It has nothing to do with it. What they are >> seeking is total control of the country. And it goes without saying that >> none of this has anything to do with George Floyd. Shame on those who >> pretended that it did. Those who fell for the lie, and those who knew >> better but played along because they are cowards." >> >> Souce: Tucker Carlson, "Liberal activists now want to 'defund the >> police'" >> >> (P.S. My own personal utopia would be to synthesize the very best ideas >> of the left with the very best of the right, but alas, that is by >> definition a dream, by definition "no place.") >> >> Thanks in advance for any thoughts (and yes, this thread is >> America-centric, starting from post #1 about the great city of Minneapolis >> -- sorry to those understandably not interested). >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 5:27 AM Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >>> Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know >>> of both. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach wrote: >>> >>>> Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive >>>> in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are >>>> never fixed given that as participants encounter new >>>> contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. >>>> This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms >>>> as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. >>>> >>>> Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires >>>> ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives >>>> given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t >>>> necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be >>>> blocked by a timid political leadership >>>> >>>> . >>>> >>>> For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: >>>> Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: >>>> Foundations, findings and future challenges. *Educational Research >>>> Review, 5*, 1?24. >>>> Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions >>>> for expansivelearning and transformative agency. *Journal of the >>>> Learning Sciences, 25*(4), 599-633. >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200605/79b58a1c/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Fri Jun 5 07:44:04 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 10:44:04 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <778D8581-3B36-45E3-824F-446B83CB8775@cantab.net> References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <0690FBAF-D842-4E6D-9D96-E314F4FB028E@cantab.net> <778D8581-3B36-45E3-824F-446B83CB8775@cantab.net> Message-ID: Martin, thank you. I like each of these goals, and there's a good chance we even agree, for most of them, on how to get there. In some cases, we probably have similar goals but different ideas (such is the spice of life) for how best to get there (e.g., put more resources into Gen4 nuclear, while trying to save a few bucks for the next pandemic; e.g., NOT using the military on our own civilians!!! except as a non-lethal deterrent to potentially worse outcomes ---- don't quote me on that one; I'm up in the air there; e.g., striking a humane immigration balance between, as Douglas Murray has framed it, the competing virtues of "justice" vs "mercy" -- in all cases on this excellent list you've presented, I ask (as you do) the simple yet hard-to-answer question, "Compared to what?") Respectfully, Anthony On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 10:30 AM Martin Packer wrote: > Anthony, the comments by Tucker Carlson that you cite make it sound as > though people simply dislike Trump. That they are offended, perhaps, by the > color his hair. Seems to me, the efforts to ensure that Trump doesn?t > continue for a second term are efforts to achieve a larger goal. That goal > might be? > > - that the US support once again the World Health Organization > - that the US take the lead in responding to environmental damage > - that immigrants be treated humanely > - that the Justice Department be independent > - that US diplomats not be exploited > - that the military not be deployed against American citizens > - and the list goes on. > > Of course you might, and probably do, disagree with the legitimacy of any > or all of these goals. But they strike me as concerns which can validly > motivate questions about the competence of a presidency. At least, no one > is questioning where Trump was born. > > Martin > > > On Jun 5, 2020, at 9:09 AM, Anthony Barra wrote: > > You have literally no contacts in your circle who can answer that? I'm > happy to help, but first you have to answer my question ; ) > > (P.S. I think this work of yours is fantastic, Martin: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKW9zWVhlZg7RxuL4PufCosXdZsfWM-QM__;!!Mih3wA!X_k0qG2Gdaz84SxG-k5loWK6oFCKti6ihDfgtd4xW4HcwdVCxAQ1ANqxvJnmnxe3eLOfJg$ > -- > if I can later, I'll try to cite your slides directly in an attempt to > answer your question. Believe it or not, I've done just that in private > conversations. Don't worry, you were not implicated in any way!) > > Anthony > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 10:03 AM Martin Packer wrote: > >> Help me understand, Anthony, why someone would *not* want to remove Trump? >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >> On Jun 5, 2020, at 8:40 AM, Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >> I, too, like avoiding politics here, but this will be a social >> analysis/dialectics question, piggybacking on a fair amount of the rest of >> this "Minneapolis" thread. So don't ban me! : ) >> >> >> Rhetorical hyperbole aside, is this the biggest Straw Man of all time, or >> are a percentage of the following sentences true? My guess is: both. (At >> first I thought that everyone here would reflexively reject and dismiss >> this Social Analysis out of hand - and understandably too, but now I'm >> wondering if some parts of it might be acknowledged, unapologetically, as >> in fact correct.) >> >> "This is about Donald Trump. Of course it is. We just couldn't see it. >> For normal people, Donald Trump is a president: you may like him, you may >> not like him, but either way there will be another president at some point, >> and we will move on as we always have. But for Donald Trump's enemies: >> there is nothing else. Everything is about Trump; everything. Donald Trump >> defines their friendships, their careers, their marriages. Donald Trump >> affects how they raise their children. Trump occupies the very center of >> their lives. As long as Donald Trump remains in the White House, they feel >> powerless and diminished and panicked, and they cannot be happy. >> >> In everything they do, their overriding goal is to remove Donald Trump >> from office. And that's exactly what they're trying to do now. That's what >> these riots are about. >> >> The most privileged in our society are using the most desperate in our >> society to seize power from everyone else. Got that? That's the nub of it: >> the most privileged are using the most desperate to seize power from the >> rest of us. They are not seeking racial justice. If they were seeking >> racial justice, they wouldn't be denouncing their fellow Americans for >> their race - which they are. It has nothing to do with it. What they are >> seeking is total control of the country. And it goes without saying that >> none of this has anything to do with George Floyd. Shame on those who >> pretended that it did. Those who fell for the lie, and those who knew >> better but played along because they are cowards." >> >> Souce: Tucker Carlson, "Liberal activists now want to 'defund the >> police'" >> >> (P.S. My own personal utopia would be to synthesize the very best ideas >> of the left with the very best of the right, but alas, that is by >> definition a dream, by definition "no place.") >> >> Thanks in advance for any thoughts (and yes, this thread is >> America-centric, starting from post #1 about the great city of Minneapolis >> -- sorry to those understandably not interested). >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 5:27 AM Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >>> Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know >>> of both. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach wrote: >>> >>>> Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive >>>> in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are >>>> never fixed given that as participants encounter new >>>> contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. >>>> This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms >>>> as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. >>>> >>>> Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires >>>> ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives >>>> given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t >>>> necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be >>>> blocked by a timid political leadership >>>> >>>> . >>>> >>>> For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: >>>> Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: >>>> Foundations, findings and future challenges. *Educational Research >>>> Review, 5*, 1?24. >>>> Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions >>>> for expansivelearning and transformative agency. *Journal of the >>>> Learning Sciences, 25*(4), 599-633. >>>> >>>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200605/7eafd614/attachment.html From rein.raud@tlu.ee Fri Jun 5 08:04:32 2020 From: rein.raud@tlu.ee (Rein Raud) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 18:04:32 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99 a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89- E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> Message-ID: Dear Anthony, Could you please specify what are the ?very best [ideas] of the right?? I really can?t see any at present, while the left is advocating a green turn, universal healthcare etc, which all seem rather sensible to me and some of those things are also the norm in most of Europe. It seems to me that the ideas of the old, original ?left? and ?right? have already been fused long since in the idea of social democracy, which tries to combine the principles of free-market economy with a system that evens out the starting opportunities for the non-privileged, disenfranchised and underrepresented. There is nothing surprising in the Trumpist you quoted saying that the very rich use the destitute to seize power from everyone else ? this is a precise description of the Trump project, this is exactly what Trump has done. Note that populist politicians all over the world are constantly accusing everyone else in what they are trying to achieve (a deep state not ruled by open democratic institutions etc). With best wishes, RR ********************************************** Rein Raud Professor of Asian and Cultural Studies, Tallinn University Uus-Sadama 5, Tallinn 10120 Estonia https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.reinraud.com__;!!Mih3wA!Tu7sXbBF2jalqZrKK0R0N_stVjKe1ZeGzKaKnuvbpm4gq3OflhXQqJ2LUIvCarebaqe5Qw$ ?Meaning in Action: Outline of an Integral?Theory of Culture?(Polity 2016) ?Practices of Selfhood? (with Zygmunt?Bauman, Polity 2015) > On 5 Jun 2020, at 16:40, Anthony Barra wrote: > > My own personal utopia would be to synthesize the very best ideas of the left with the very best of the right -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200605/813fd93a/attachment.html From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Fri Jun 5 09:30:20 2020 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 17:30:20 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Anthony "we were more united than any time in recent memory." - Given the continued protests and violence, who is the "we" who were united in an implicit 'decision' - that nothing further should happen, except those essential (but insufficient?), legal and political tasks you suggest referred to under your list of violent destruction and theft? Perplexed, after almost 600 years of genocidal robbery and rapine across the entire "Americas", Tom On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 at 00:49, Anthony Barra wrote: > David, interesting story - very - of The Bad and The Good, neatly > characterized (too neatly?). How about the Ugly; is this part of the > proportionate response too: > > In Minneapolis > ?MSP Jewelers Bryant Ave. S: Extensive property damage, looting. > > ? Sanaag Resturant Lake and Cedar: Property damage, looting. > > ? Moto convenience store with fuel, Hiawatha and 33rd: Property damage and > looted. > > ? Speedway at Hennepin and 25th: Property and fire damage. > > ? Schubert & Hoey Outdoor Advertising on 26th and 28th: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Scooterville 17th Avenue South: Property damage. > > ? Pie and Mighty 35th and Chicago: Property damage. > > ? Cal Surf on Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? USPS Post Office Minnehaha and Lake: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Mailbox Solutions Plus 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Cellphone shop 44th Ave N. and Penn: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Tom's Barbershop 44th Ave. N. and Penn: Fire damage. > > ? Knights Chamber Calhoun Square: Property damage, looting, water damage. > > ? ChicagoLake Dental: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Mama Safia East Lake Street: Fire damage. > > ? Bismallah Grocery & Coffee Chicago Avenue: Fire damage and looting. > > ? Quruxlow Restaurant East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Safari Beauty 405 E Lake St: Property damage. > > ? Speedway 51st and 34th: Fire damage. > > ? Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage. > > ? Nepp & Hackert Law Firm West Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Pharmacy at In Town on Lake Building: Property damage. > > ? Blue Tree Music Education 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door > smashed > > ? Drew?s Popcorn 23rd and 35th: Property damage; glass door smashed. > > ? Domino's on 26th Ave So and E 28th Street: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Popeyes Chicken Chicago Avenue: Destroyed by Fire. > > ? Boost Mobile East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Dream Haven Comics: 38th St and 23rd Ave: Looting, property damage. > > ? Family Dollar, 3110 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage > > ? Union Liquor, 3219 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage > > ? Broadway Liquor Outlet: Extensive Damage > > ? All Washed Up Laundromat, 3008 Penn Ave: Damage > > ? Penn Gas Stop, 2606 Penn Ave N: Extensive damage, Looting > > ? Aldi Grocery, Penn Ave N: Damage > > ? Family Dollar, 505 W Broadway: Looting > > ? Neighbors One Stop Inc. Gas station, 3759 Penn Ave N: Fire > > ? North End Hardware, Penn Ave N: Property damage > > ? Walgreens St Louis Park: Looting > > ? Nokomis Shoe Shop at 4950 34th Ave: Property damage. > > ? Sabri Commons at East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? International Bazaar at East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? 315 East Lake Street: Fire damage, looting. > > ? Yusuf Center East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? Plaza Mexico East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? El Nuevo Miramar East Lake Street: Looting. > > ? Extreme Noise Records Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Piff Streetwear Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. > > ? Como Tap Como Avenue: Property damage and looting. > > ? Chris Vale Cycles 27th Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Dollar Tree Nicollet Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Kmart Nicollet: Property damage, looting. > > ? Office Depot Nicollet: Property damage, looting, flooding. > > ? Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: Property > damage and looting. > > ? Atlas Staffing: 1st Ave and Lake: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's 28th and Chicago: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Holiday Gas Station 46th and Hiawatha: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Walgreens 46th and Hiawatha: Property damage and looting. > > ? Kitchen Window Uptown: Extensive property damage, looting. > > ? Popeyes Lake: Property damage. > > ? Hooks Fish and Chicken West Lake: Property damage. > > ? Metro PCS West Lake: Property damage. > > ? Pawn Shop West Lake: Property damage. > > ? Grand Managament Inc. Lyndale: Property Damage. > > ? Kyle's Market W 36th Street: Property damage. > > ? Pearl Vision Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Galactic Pizza: Property damage. > > ? Marathon Lyndale and 28th: Property damage. > > ? Williams Uptown Pub & Peanut Bar: Property damage. > > ? Iron Door Pub: Fire damage > > ? Speedway LynLake: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Family Dollar 36th & Nicollet: Destroyed by fire. > > ? O'Reilly's Auto Parts 36th and Nicollet: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Fade Factory Barber Shop: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Hibachi Grill on Lake Street: Fire damage. > > ? Wells Fargo 31st and Nicollet: Property damage, extensive fire damage. > > ? Commercial building at 27th and East Lake: Extensive fire damage. > > ? USPS at 31st Street and 1st Avenue: Extensive fire damage and looting. > > ? Shell Gas Station Park and Lake: Property damage, fire, and looting. > > ? Migizi Communications 27th Avenue South: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Olympic Cafe West Broadway: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Metro by T-Mobile West Broadway: Fire damage. > > ? Lyndale Tobacco at 722 W. Lake St: Property damage. > > ? Paper Source Uptown: Property damage and looting. > > ? Everett?s Foods on 38th and Cedar: Property damage and looting. > > ? El Nuevo Rodeo Restaurante East Lake Street: Destroyed in fire. > > ? Holiday 36th and Cedar: Broken windows and looting. > > ? Matt's Bar 35th and Cedar: Broken window > > ? Subway at 36th and Cedar: broken windows. > > ? E&L Supermarket and Deli on Lowry Ave: Property damage. > > ? Nguyen Architects 26th and 27th: Destroyed in fire. > > ? Pantry Food Market 52nd Ave N and Bryant Ave. N: Property damage and > looting. > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? The Hub Bike Co-op: Property damage. > > ? Family Dollar 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Pat's Tap 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? B-Squad Vintage 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Tibet Store: Property damage. > > ? Speedway 35th and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Casablanca Foods 33rd and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? Valerie's 32nd and Nicollet: Property damage. > > ? A Automall Inc. East Lake: Property damage, vehicles stolen. > > ? Speedway at 60th and Portland: Property damage. > > ? Broadway Clinic North Minneapolis: Property damage. > > ? Juxtaposition Arts North Emerson: Property damage. > > ? Sew Simple Nicollet and 24th: Property damage, looting. > > ? Park and Lake Car Wash on East Lake Street Windows broken, graffiti and > some interior damage. > > ? Park-Nicollet Minneapolis Clinic: Property damage. > > ? Arby's Lake Street: Destroyed by fire. > > ? K-Mart Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Penzey's Spices Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Walgreens Hennepin and 27th: Property damage. > > ? Midori's Floating World Cafe Lake Street: Fire damage. > > ? GM Tobacco Lake and 27th: Fire damage. > > ? McDonald's Lake and 31st: Property damage. > > ? Walgreens Central and Lowry in Northeast: Property damage. > > ? Wells Fargo Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Ladditude Tattoo Lake and 27th: Fire damage. > > ? LV's Barbershop Lake and 27th: Fire damage. > > ? The Hub Bike Co-op Minnehaha and 30th: Property damage. > > ? J-Klips Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? 5 Guys Hennepin and 24th: Property damage. > > ? Holiday Hennepin and 25th: Property damage. > > ? Honda Town Lake and 43rd: Property damage. > > ? Tires Plus Lake and 34th: Property damage. > > ? Hennepin County Human Service Center: Property damage. > > ? ICC Wireless Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Jackson Hewitt Tax Service: Property damage. > > ? Little Caesars Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Teppanyaki Grill Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Home Choice Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Dollar General Lake Street: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Twin Lake Dental: Fire and property damage. > > ? HD Laundry Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Citi Trends Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Total Wireless Lake Street: Fire and property damage. > > ? Pineda Tacos Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Subway Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? 7 Mile Fashion Express East Lake Street: Destroyed by fire > > ? The Fremont Bar Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts West Broadway: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Broadway Liquor Outlet West Broadway: Property damage, looting. > > ? Quality Tobacco Lake and 1st: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Skol Liquor Store 27th Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Max-It Pawn Shop Cedar Avenue: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Minnehaha Liquor Lake Street: Property damage, looting, extensive fire > damage. > > ? Hexagon Bar at E 26th and 27th: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Target Lake Street: Looting, graffiti, property damage, fire damage. > > ? Wendy's Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. > > ? AutoZone Lake Street: Fire, destroyed. > > ? Cub Foods Lake Street: Looting, property damage, fire damage. > > ? Under construction affordable housing development at 26th and 29th: > Fire, destroyed. > > ? 7-Sigma building, 26th and 29th: Fire, extensive damage. > > ? Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Dollar Tree off Lake Street: Property damage, looting. > > ? Metro by T-Mobile Lake Street: Fire, extensive damage. > > ? Hi Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > ? Speedway East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? East Lake Library: Windows smashed, graffiti. > > ? Precision Tune Auto Care Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? U.S. Bank Lake Street: Property damage, graffiti. > > Sign up for our BREAKING NEWS newsletters > > ? Dairy Queen East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Papa Murphy's Pizza East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Planet Fitness on Lake: Property damage. > > ? Domino's Pizza 26th and 28th: Property damage. > > ? Urban Forage Winery and Cider House, Lake and 29th: Property damage, > looting. > > ? Gandhi Mahal Restaurant, 27th and Lake: Extensive fire damage. > > ? Car-X Tire & Auto East Lake Street: Property damage, vehicle smashed > through windows. > > ? Frattelone's Ace Hardware East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? MN Transitions Charter School: Property damage. > > ? Laundro Max East Lake Street: Window smashed. > > ? Soderberg's Floral & Gift East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? East Lake Clinic: Property damage. > > ? Seward Pharmacy: Window smashed, graffiti. > > ? Electra Tune Auto Care on Lake St: Property damage, vehicle stolen. > > ? Walgreens at 43rd and Chicago: Property damage, looting. > > ? Elevated Beer Wine & Spirits, Hiawatha Ave: Property damage, looting. > > ? Schooner's Tavern, barbershop next door: Fire, property damage. > > ? Seward Co-op, 28th and Franklin: Window smashed, attempted theft of ATM. > > ? Midtown Global Market: Property damage, looting. > > Seward Community Co-op, Facebook > > ? Briva Health Lake Street: Window smashed. > > ? Foot Locker East Lake Street: Property damage, looting. > > ? BMO Harris East Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? TCF Bank at 38th and Minnehaha: Property damage. > > ? Studiiyo23 Hennepin Avenue, Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? DTLR, Broadway, North Minneapolis: Property damage, looting. > > ? Uptown Pawn: Property damage, looting. > > ? La Familia Skate Shop: Property damage. > > ? Target Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > Spencer Wallman > > ? Chicago & Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > ? East Lake Liquor: Property damage, looting. > > ? Ingebretsens on Lake: Property damage, windows smashed. > > ? Freewheel Bike: Property damage, windows smashed. > > ? Hamdi Restaurant, Midtown: Property damage, graffiti. > > ? Hudson's Hardware, East 42nd Street: Property damage and looting. > > ? Birchwood Cafe, East 25th Street: Property damage. > > ? CVS Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Timberland Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Sunnys Wigs 29th and Lyndale: Property damage. > > ? Thurston Jewelers West Lake Street: Property damage. > > ? Banadir Pharmacy West Lake Street: Property damage and looting > > ? Sephora Uptown: Property damage. > > ? Gamestop Uptown: Property damage, looting. > > ? Indulge and Bloom, Uptown: Property damage. > > ? H&M Uptown: Windows smashed. > > ? Apple Store Uptown: Windows smashed., looting. > > ? Urban Outfitters Uptown: Door window smashed. > > ? Smokeless Northeast: Vandalized, closed till further notice. > > ? AutoZone at 501 West Broadway, North Minneapolis: Unconfirmed report of > looting, property damage. > > ? Buzzmart, downtown Minneapolis: Property damage. > > ? Town Talk Diner, Lake Street: Extensive property damage. > > ? Bondesque: Property damage. > > In St. Paul > ? Metro Sound and Lighting University Avenue: Substantial property damage > and looting. > > ? Axman Surplus University Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Walgreens Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage and looting. > > ? T-Mobile Lexington and Larpenteur: Property damage. > > ? Turf Club: Property damage. > > ? Great Health Nutrition: Looting. > > ? Gordon Parks High School: Property damage. > > ? Trader Joe's St. Paul: Property damage, looting. > > ? A1 Lock Service on Snelling: Property damage > > ? Holiday Station at Wabasha and Plato: Property damage and looting. > > ? Gold'n Treasures on Grand Ave: Property damage and looting. > > ? Speedway at Grand and Cleveland: Extensive fire damage. > > ? T-Mobile at Excelsior and Grand: Property damage, looting. > > ? 1st Grand Avenue Liquors on Grand and Milton: Property damage, looting. > > ? Foot Locker Midway: Extensive fire damage. > > ? GameStop Midway: Extensive fire damage, looting. > > ? To New York Midway: Property damage. > > ? Peking Garden Midway: Property damage. > > ? Lloyd's Pharmacy Snelling and Minnehaha: Destroyed by fire. > > ? Target Midway: Property damage, looting. > > ? CVS University Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Max It Pawn Shop University Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Verizon Store Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Noodles & Co Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Vitamine Shoppe Hamline Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Big Top Liquors Midway: Property damage. > > ? TJ Maxx Midway: Property damage, small fire. > > ? Sprint store Midway: Property damage, looting. > > ? Midway Tobacco Outlet Plus: Property damage > > ? NAPA Auto Parts University Avenue: Property damage, fire. > > ? T-Mobile on Arcade and York: Property damage, looting. > > ? LeeAnn Chinn Midway: Property damage, graffiti. > > ? America's Best Contacts & Eyeglasses Midway: Property damage, graffiti. > > ? Furniture Barn Midway: Property damage, graffiti, fire. > > ? BP on University Avenue: Property damage. > > ? Walgreens on Randolph and Snelling: Property damage, looting. > > ? Discount Tire Co. Midway: Property damage. > > ? O'Reilly Auto Parts Lexington: Property damage, fire. > > ? TCF Bank Lexington and University: Property damage. > > ? Lululemon Grand Avenue: Property damage, looting. > > ? Speedway University Ave: Property damage, fire. > > ? Sun Ray Shopping Center: Property damage and looting. > > ? Ananya Dance Theater University Ave: Property damage. > > ? Springboard for the Arts University Ave: Property damage, fire. > > ? 7-Mile Sportwear University Ave: Property damage, looting. > > ? Fire n Ice Chicken: Property damage. > > ? Liquor Barrel on West 7th: Property damage, looting. > > ? Moellers Jewelry, Highland: Property damage. > > ? The Fixery, Highland: Property damage. > > ? Bole Ethiopian Restaurant: Fire. > > ? Enterprise University Avenue: Fire. > > ? Goodwill: Property damage. > > In Twin Cities suburbs > ? Target Maplewood: Property damage and looting. > > ? The Jewelers Saint Anthony: Property damage. > > ? GameStop Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting. > > ? Walmart Brooklyn Center: Property damage, looting > > .? T-Mobile Store Brooklyn Center: Property damage. > > ? Family Dollar Brooklyn Center: Property damage. > > ? Walgreens 63rd and Brooklyn Blvd., Brooklyn Center: Property damage. > > ? Western Service Center, Apple Valley: Property, fire, and water damage. > > Or how about this? > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DarrenJBeattie/status/1268003013425344514?s=19__;!!Mih3wA!X2QDZcIgfNXAYvRzoKxNbZ5jbbg1MMeXuiZH4r354KCRYnJpuesevDdLxI1N6n1sXL0_bQ$ > > > This sucks. > > Everyone in the country agreed on Day 1 -- prosecute the cops, mourn for > the dead, seek a productive path forward. There was no one left to > persuade! On at least this one thing, we were more united than any time in > recent memory. > > 7 days later...half of that goodwill, natural fellowship, and brotherhood > has been pissed away. > > The sale was already made, but the sellers kept selling and likely blew > the deal. > > Sucks. > > Anthony > > > > > On Wednesday, June 3, 2020, David Kellogg wrote: > >> I was born in Minneapolis and grew up on both sides of the 3rd Precinct >> (which burned down last week in what I have to say was an entirely >> proportionate response to the murder of George Floyd). >> >> Minneapolis is a town that's very well known for progressive >> politics--but it's also known as one of the most tightly segregated cities >> in the USA. I went to elementary school in Prospect Park, which had a >> chain-link fence dividing the white part and the black part, and I remember >> the column of black kids coming through the single opening in the fence, >> because it was halfway to my own elementary school, Sidney Pratt, on Tower >> Hill. >> >> Minneapolis also has a Police Federation, which is not a "union" but a >> paramilitary organization which has a long history of defying the >> Democratic-Farmer-Labor government, defending officers who murder black >> people (George Floyd, Jamar Clark, Philando Castile) >> and financing fly-by-night "Warrior Training" programmes that teach cops >> how to use hair-trigger weapons bought army-surplus from overseas >> deployments of the US military. Bob Kroll, the head of the federation, >> sported a "white power" badge, and called George Floyd a violent criminal >> (but he also said pretty much the same thing about Keith Ellison and Barack >> Obama). >> >> There's another Minneapolis. In 1934, radicals in the Teamsters Union >> launched one of only four general strikes in American history (typical >> Minnesota tactics--coal drivers struck in the dead of winter!) It changed >> the Teamsters from a craft union to an industrial union. Yesterday a group >> of health experts (also in Minneapolis) issued a statement which recognized >> the need to mobilize in defense of the most-hard hit section of the >> population in this pandemic, but worried a lot about spikes triggered in >> mass demonstrations. As I watch events in my hometown from afar, I wonder >> if it's not time for a second Minneapolis general strike. >> >> (Mike--I was going to post this on CulturalPraxis as you suggested, but >> there's some kind of log-in over there, and I'm not a member....) >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!X2QDZcIgfNXAYvRzoKxNbZ5jbbg1MMeXuiZH4r354KCRYnJpuesevDdLxI1N6n0MdoV6qg$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!X2QDZcIgfNXAYvRzoKxNbZ5jbbg1MMeXuiZH4r354KCRYnJpuesevDdLxI1N6n2L0H2OYw$ >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200605/1786926c/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Jun 5 11:18:31 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 11:18:31 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] Research Professional at UChicago TMW Center for Early Learning and Public Health In-Reply-To: <71819F10-AFF5-45F8-9B9F-427D34019E07@surgery.bsd.uchicago.edu> References: <71819F10-AFF5-45F8-9B9F-427D34019E07@surgery.bsd.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: work ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Suskind, Dana [SUR] Date: Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 11:15 AM Subject: [COGDEVSOC] Research Professional at UChicago TMW Center for Early Learning and Public Health To: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org Dear Colleagues ? I hope all is well and you are all holding up well and finding ways to engage meaningfully to address the issues of equity and justice in your communities and at large. I am reaching out about a new position at the TMW Center for Early Learning + Public Health which I co-direct. We are looking for a Research professional 1 (PhD) to join the Center and contribute our lines of scientific inquiry. More information about the role is here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wd5.myworkday.com/uchicago/d/inst/15$392530/9925$13282.htmld__;!!Mih3wA!Soj6auNVtDHja68nz81R215DbFkX2pu-NEizz-GX53fEuchiytxX3zkixkEo3M7yr1kRFA$ Could you share this with the broader listserv and encourage people in your networks to apply? I am also happy to chat with candidates if that is helpful. Thank you so much for your help! Warmest Regards, Dana Suskind, MD University of Chicago _______________________________________________ This email represents the views of the sender and not the views of the Cognitive Development Society. To post to the CDS listserv, send your message to: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org (If you belong to the listserv and have not included any large attachments, your message will be posted without moderation--so be careful!) To subscribe or unsubscribe from the listserv, visit: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lists.cogdevsoc.org/listinfo.cgi/cogdevsoc-cogdevsoc.org__;!!Mih3wA!Soj6auNVtDHja68nz81R215DbFkX2pu-NEizz-GX53fEuchiytxX3zkixkEo3M4xoPqyZA$ -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Soj6auNVtDHja68nz81R215DbFkX2pu-NEizz-GX53fEuchiytxX3zkixkEo3M64XAUGOA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200605/2873a41e/attachment.html From arips@optonline.net Fri Jun 5 12:23:44 2020 From: arips@optonline.net (rips) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 15:23:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] Research Professional at UChicago TMW Center for Early Learning and Public Health In-Reply-To: References: <71819F10-AFF5-45F8-9B9F-427D34019E07@surgery.bsd.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <34902139.108308.1591385024728@mymail.optimum.net> Its a log in not the description of the position.Can you post the description of the position? thanks! Avram > On June 5, 2020 at 2:18 PM mike cole wrote: > > work > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Suskind, Dana [SUR] > Date: Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 11:15 AM > Subject: [COGDEVSOC] Research Professional at UChicago TMW Center for Early Learning and Public Health > To: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org mailto:cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org < cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org mailto:cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org > > > > > Dear Colleagues ? > > > > I hope all is well and you are all holding up well and finding ways to engage meaningfully to address the issues of equity and justice in your communities and at large. I am reaching out about a new position at the TMW Center for Early Learning + Public Health https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tmwcenter.uchicago.edu__;!!Mih3wA!Soj6auNVtDHja68nz81R215DbFkX2pu-NEizz-GX53fEuchiytxX3zkixkEo3M46riFzaA$ which I co-direct. We are looking for a Research professional 1 (PhD) to join the Center and contribute our lines of scientific inquiry. More information about the role is here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wd5.myworkday.com/uchicago/d/inst/15$392530/9925$13282.htmld__;!!Mih3wA!TebGWoB9e1UUuHqJRR1w_tZ7IV77BSVipDVc40JyTotMn7FYsg5AejFzXLRKgxyylsmvkA$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wd5.myworkday.com/uchicago/d/inst/15$392530/9925$13282.htmld__;!!Mih3wA!Soj6auNVtDHja68nz81R215DbFkX2pu-NEizz-GX53fEuchiytxX3zkixkEo3M7yr1kRFA$ > > > > Could you share this with the broader listserv and encourage people in your networks to apply? I am also happy to chat with candidates if that is helpful. Thank you so much for your help! > > > > Warmest Regards, > Dana Suskind, MD > > University of Chicago > > _______________________________________________ > This email represents the views of the sender and not the views of the Cognitive Development Society. > To post to the CDS listserv, send your message to: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org mailto:cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org > (If you belong to the listserv and have not included any large attachments, your message > will be posted without moderation--so be careful!) > > To subscribe or unsubscribe from the listserv, visit: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lists.cogdevsoc.org/listinfo.cgi/cogdevsoc-cogdevsoc.org__;!!Mih3wA!TebGWoB9e1UUuHqJRR1w_tZ7IV77BSVipDVc40JyTotMn7FYsg5AejFzXLRKgxxtnXiOXQ$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lists.cogdevsoc.org/listinfo.cgi/cogdevsoc-cogdevsoc.org__;!!Mih3wA!Soj6auNVtDHja68nz81R215DbFkX2pu-NEizz-GX53fEuchiytxX3zkixkEo3M4xoPqyZA$ > > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TebGWoB9e1UUuHqJRR1w_tZ7IV77BSVipDVc40JyTotMn7FYsg5AejFzXLRKgxyugVD1zg$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Soj6auNVtDHja68nz81R215DbFkX2pu-NEizz-GX53fEuchiytxX3zkixkEo3M64XAUGOA$ > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://re-generatingchat.com__;!!Mih3wA!Soj6auNVtDHja68nz81R215DbFkX2pu-NEizz-GX53fEuchiytxX3zkixkEo3M5gAX605A$ > Archival resources website: http://lchc.ucsd.edu . > Narrative history of LCHC: http://lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200605/c00b66ec/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Jun 5 12:32:46 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 12:32:46 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] Research Professional at UChicago TMW Center for Early Learning and Public Health In-Reply-To: <34902139.108308.1591385024728@mymail.optimum.net> References: <71819F10-AFF5-45F8-9B9F-427D34019E07@surgery.bsd.uchicago.edu> <34902139.108308.1591385024728@mymail.optimum.net> Message-ID: That is all the info I have. Should be enough to track down On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 12:26 PM rips wrote: > Its a log in not the description of the position.Can you post the > description of the position? thanks! Avram > > On June 5, 2020 at 2:18 PM mike cole wrote: > > work > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: *Suskind, Dana [SUR]* > Date: Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 11:15 AM > Subject: [COGDEVSOC] Research Professional at UChicago TMW Center for > Early Learning and Public Health > To: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org < cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org> > > > Dear Colleagues ? > > > > I hope all is well and you are all holding up well and finding ways to > engage meaningfully to address the issues of equity and justice in your > communities and at large. I am reaching out about a new position at the TMW > Center for Early Learning + Public Health > > which I co-direct. We are looking for a Research professional 1 (PhD) to > join the Center and contribute our lines of scientific inquiry. More > information about the role is here: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wd5.myworkday.com/uchicago/d/inst/15$392530/9925$13282.htmld__;!!Mih3wA!USqS98LyoUF-WgG_B3B-EgIaUxQMUczDq2SKovSHjHrNoWe2tA-edXjXr9ZdvGUONdmvgg$ > > > > > Could you share this with the broader listserv and encourage people in > your networks to apply? I am also happy to chat with candidates if that is > helpful. Thank you so much for your help! > > > > Warmest Regards, > Dana Suskind, MD > > University of Chicago > _______________________________________________ > This email represents the views of the sender and not the views of the > Cognitive Development Society. > To post to the CDS listserv, send your message to: > cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org > (If you belong to the listserv and have not included any large > attachments, your message > will be posted without moderation--so be careful!) > > To subscribe or unsubscribe from the listserv, visit: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lists.cogdevsoc.org/listinfo.cgi/cogdevsoc-cogdevsoc.org__;!!Mih3wA!USqS98LyoUF-WgG_B3B-EgIaUxQMUczDq2SKovSHjHrNoWe2tA-edXjXr9ZdvGVSrpA20A$ > > > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!USqS98LyoUF-WgG_B3B-EgIaUxQMUczDq2SKovSHjHrNoWe2tA-edXjXr9ZdvGUJUl1yvA$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu . > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . > > > > -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!USqS98LyoUF-WgG_B3B-EgIaUxQMUczDq2SKovSHjHrNoWe2tA-edXjXr9ZdvGUJUl1yvA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200605/5bfdce5b/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Jun 5 14:10:50 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 06:10:50 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> Message-ID: (Is this thread American-centric? If so, 'twere a grievous fault. But grievously hath Haydi answered it--I don't think anybody can consider his dense, encyclopaedic blocks of text--the polar opposite of Anthony's American-centric orthography as well as Anthony's style and content--in any way American-centric....) Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we read events rather than in the events themselves, Anthony. To me, the situation in and around Washington DC looks very much like the situation in and around Beijing in May1989. As in DC, Beijing had laws preventing the entry of the armed forces other than those of the Beijing Military Region into the city (the exclusion laws were actually written into the Chinese constitution by Mao, who was always afraid of powerful military opponents like Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao). The Beijing Military Region, however, was loyal to the people of Beijing and to the General Secretary Zhao Ziyang, and they opposed to a coup. So, as in DC, the "martial law" forces were called to the city perimeter where they halted for several weeks. As in DC, the provenance of the "martial law" forces were quite mysterious--they didn't carry insignia and it later turned out that these were forces personally loyal to two PLA warlords, the brothers Yang Baibing and Yang Shangkun. As in DC, there were different waves of demonstrators inside the city: someone put up artworks in the square (as the mayor did in DC this morning) and others told people to go home and organize and not stay to be massacred. And then, almost exactly thirty-one years ago, the unmarked shock troops went in shooting, and at least a thousand people died. I hope that part is NOT like DC, but so far the "American exceptionalists" have been proved wrong on every single detail. Clorox on cloth? Gadzooks, Peg. Don't Americans have real N-94s yet? At the very height of the Daegu outbreak people had to resort to cloth masks (I don't think anybody used Clorox, though). Then the government brought in a rationing system so that health care workers could get PPE, and the extras are still rationed according to the numbers on registration cards: we go to the pharmacy twice a week to pick up our ration of three masks. No one is allowed onto a bus, a subway, or into a public building without one. Yesterday I went hiking for two hours and whenever I saw someone coming towards me they hastily put on a mask and bowed. (Do you know, the largest factory for PPE in the USA, and possibly the world until recently, is 3M in Minneapolis? There's a solid transitional demand for a general strike--Masks for all! Occupy 3M!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Xp_sgr0_UzNqr7vRI1XOMts503dCWTEnbJj5gRjnZG4dhhNbDC9HkM8UT-m4O5QGCUaqfQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Xp_sgr0_UzNqr7vRI1XOMts503dCWTEnbJj5gRjnZG4dhhNbDC9HkM8UT-m4O5QTbNA7-g$ On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:30 PM Anthony Barra wrote: > Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know > of both. > > > > > > On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach wrote: > >> Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive >> in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are >> never fixed given that as participants encounter new >> contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. >> This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms >> as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. >> >> Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires >> ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives >> given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t >> necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be >> blocked by a timid political leadership >> >> . >> >> For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: >> Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: >> Foundations, findings and future challenges. *Educational Research >> Review, 5*, 1?24. >> Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions >> for expansivelearning and transformative agency. *Journal of the >> Learning Sciences, 25*(4), 599-633. >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200606/6357c897/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Jun 5 14:51:53 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 06:51:53 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Jules Payot - The Education of the Will In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ulvi-- I think Vygotsky is indirectly referring to "education of the will" at the end of Chapter 12 of the History of the Development of Higher Mental Functions (Self-Control). He lays out a position which is diametrically opposite to that of Payot (who is a Cartesian). That position is based on Spinoza (and of course Engels) and "recognition of necessity". It is a view that Thomas Sowell would certainly call "constrained"--free will is the recognition of necessity. I agree with you on Payot's relation to Marxism. He was a Savoyard, and the Savoie isn't exactly French or German, so his pacifism was highly conditional and certainly didn't apply to "lesser breeds without the law". The French had a different model of colonization from the British--the Brits liked to suborn the local bourgeoisie and cream off profits (India, Nigeria, Palestine, Iran, Turkey...). The French preferred to kill everybody and then deport their unwanted population (Algeria, Indochina, Nouvelle Caledonie, Haiti). But of course the Brits could use the French strategy (America and Australia) and the French sometimes used the British one (West Africa) In the end, they were both guided by the same material conditions on the ground: Is there a local bourgeoisie to coopt? Are there too many workers and peasants to murder? What Payot writes is very much in the French tradition of "merciless rationalism"--"the Mediterranean flows through France", etc. I also think that his obsession with "education of the will" reflects a contemporary centrepiece of moral education that we don't really think of these days...preventing masturbation! I had a student who taught in a Waldorf academy for a number of years. The Waldorfers are big on Payot. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QaszLPG-9LrGLJMKm716GLy79TkLBJ5X1Xrq6oNhT74qgyVWfGRZWgEWFhpeDeLouyOG3A$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QaszLPG-9LrGLJMKm716GLy79TkLBJ5X1Xrq6oNhT74qgyVWfGRZWgEWFhpeDeKyVLAB2Q$ On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 8:17 PM Ulvi ??il wrote: > > I simply noticed that he has colonialist tendencies about redskins > preferring extermination to "regular labour" he says. > > > > 5 Haz 2020 Cum 13:54 tarihinde Ulvi ??il ?unu yazd?: > >> >> Can I ask some short comments on this book please? >> >> Is this one of the best in the field? Any other and better? >> >> Is there a comment of Vygotsky on this book? >> >> Any critique from a Marxist dialectical perspective? How distanced was >> Payot to Marxism? >> >> It seems to me that the education of the will is quite actual in the >> education of today's youth at this stage of capitalism/imperialism. >> >> Thanks. >> >> Ulvi >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200606/12c3a93e/attachment.html From preiss.xmca@gmail.com Fri Jun 5 15:02:34 2020 From: preiss.xmca@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 18:02:34 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Testimony of teaching during COVID19 Message-ID: Thank you to Alfredo for publishing this short testimony in culturalpraxis of my experience teaching online during COVID19. It is in English and Spanish: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/06/03/ensenanza-universitaria-durante-el-covid-19-10-principios-pedagogicos/__;!!Mih3wA!UvuYydkKyxK7uWoHZVyAlP6d3-dYSD1jQYhdYhcvE0Azkzgi299jGlh6F6ZDcBvHMhEoZQ$ David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200605/169dca16/attachment.html From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Fri Jun 5 15:12:56 2020 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 01:12:56 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Jules Payot - The Education of the Will In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you David. I went through some parts of the work during the day... there is something irritaring in both its content and form... It is not, I would say, humanistic but rather it aims at creating men who are needed for the imperialism age of capitalism... kinds of robots... cold... managers I would say..." workolics" corporate men... Glorification of work and aims is quite egoistic, individualistic, contrary to communism. 6 Haz 2020 Cmt 00:58 tarihinde David Kellogg ?unu yazd?: > Ulvi-- > > I think Vygotsky is indirectly referring to "education of the will" at the > end of Chapter 12 of the History of the Development of Higher Mental > Functions (Self-Control). He lays out a position which is diametrically > opposite to that of Payot (who is a Cartesian). That position is based on > Spinoza (and of course Engels) and "recognition of necessity". It is a view > that Thomas Sowell would certainly call "constrained"--free will is the > recognition of necessity. > > I agree with you on Payot's relation to Marxism. He was a Savoyard, and > the Savoie isn't exactly French or German, so his pacifism was highly > conditional and certainly didn't apply to "lesser breeds without the law". > The French had a different model of colonization from the British--the > Brits liked to suborn the local bourgeoisie and cream off profits (India, > Nigeria, Palestine, Iran, Turkey...). The French preferred to kill > everybody and then deport their unwanted population (Algeria, Indochina, > Nouvelle Caledonie, Haiti). But of course the Brits could use the French > strategy (America and Australia) and the French sometimes used the British > one (West Africa) In the end, they were both guided by the same material > conditions on the ground: Is there a local bourgeoisie to coopt? Are there > too many workers and peasants to murder? > > What Payot writes is very much in the French tradition of "merciless > rationalism"--"the Mediterranean flows through France", etc. I also think > that his obsession with "education of the will" reflects a contemporary > centrepiece of moral education that we don't really think of these > days...preventing masturbation! > > I had a student who taught in a Waldorf academy for a number of years. The > Waldorfers are big on Payot. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!S9ROUsAPOdbdvFVdyEB3pyDE2OJYmm40IFfEsQ0viuILVSqXcdy57c28UdiaE--QISIWhg$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!S9ROUsAPOdbdvFVdyEB3pyDE2OJYmm40IFfEsQ0viuILVSqXcdy57c28UdiaE--NUYFffg$ > > > > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 8:17 PM Ulvi ??il wrote: > >> >> I simply noticed that he has colonialist tendencies about redskins >> preferring extermination to "regular labour" he says. >> >> >> >> 5 Haz 2020 Cum 13:54 tarihinde Ulvi ??il ?unu >> yazd?: >> >>> >>> Can I ask some short comments on this book please? >>> >>> Is this one of the best in the field? Any other and better? >>> >>> Is there a comment of Vygotsky on this book? >>> >>> Any critique from a Marxist dialectical perspective? How distanced was >>> Payot to Marxism? >>> >>> It seems to me that the education of the will is quite actual in the >>> education of today's youth at this stage of capitalism/imperialism. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Ulvi >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200606/4c8b6adf/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Jun 5 16:24:55 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 17:24:55 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99 a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89- E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> Message-ID: <1332745D-AA5E-43FE-9A05-F35DBDDC9D5B@gmail.com> Rein, I appreciate that you have answered a question I put out on the chat a while back: Can anything take the place of the market? Your answer is clear: "It seems to me that the ideas of the old, original ?left? and ?right? have already been fused long since in the idea of social democracy, which tries to combine the principles of free-market economy with a system that evens out the starting opportunities for the non-privileged, disenfranchised and underrepresented.? It seems to me that this is also the answer to Anthony?s quest. And it addresses the answer to the question of free will. Some people are lucky, very lucky. And some people are unlucky, very unlucky. Free will, as libertarians frame it, does not exist. There is a legitimate place for government, and that is to even the playing field and care for those who fall by the way. I believe the protests in the U.S. are in this spirit. Henry > On Jun 5, 2020, at 9:04 AM, Rein Raud wrote: > > Dear Anthony, > > Could you please specify what are the ?very best [ideas] of the right?? I really can?t see any at present, while the left is advocating a green turn, universal healthcare etc, which all seem rather sensible to me and some of those things are also the norm in most of Europe. It seems to me that the ideas of the old, original ?left? and ?right? have already been fused long since in the idea of social democracy, which tries to combine the principles of free-market economy with a system that evens out the starting opportunities for the non-privileged, disenfranchised and underrepresented. There is nothing surprising in the Trumpist you quoted saying that the very rich use the destitute to seize power from everyone else ? this is a precise description of the Trump project, this is exactly what Trump has done. Note that populist politicians all over the world are constantly accusing everyone else in what they are trying to achieve (a deep state not ruled by open democratic institutions etc). > > With best wishes, > > RR > > > ********************************************** > Rein Raud > Professor of Asian and Cultural Studies, Tallinn University > Uus-Sadama 5, Tallinn 10120 Estonia > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.reinraud.com__;!!Mih3wA!TIsEGuAmOWNVSm9BVgxInF5SbVk1SXEvDXfng9zCKfT7LM4QtpVtnLKHf7j7ba2x5SAR7w$ > > > ?Meaning in Action: Outline of an Integral?Theory of Culture?(Polity 2016) > ?Practices of Selfhood? (with Zygmunt?Bauman, Polity 2015) > > > > > >> On 5 Jun 2020, at 16:40, Anthony Barra > wrote: >> >> My own personal utopia would be to synthesize the very best ideas of the left with the very best of the right > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200605/d7ad6187/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Jun 5 16:26:05 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 17:26:05 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> Message-ID: <09D1CFD1-2A48-4F96-B61F-9FAABFDCD397@gmail.com> IMHO David says, "Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we read events rather than in the events themselves.? I am thinking about what Andy Blunden said, something to the effect that every experience is both mediated and un-mediated. Anthony seems to be looking for something more objective, something that transcends ideology. David K. might object that the facts of murderous and explotative British and French colonialism and the brutality of the Chinese regime are simply the facts, the kinds of facts that drive the passion and compassion of the people on the street in the U.S. Let cool heads prevail? That is the Cartesian take. The Spinoza turn in Vygotsky circles would conclude that without affect (passion and compassion) reason is impossible. Perhaps Anthony?s quest is Quixotic, laid out on the windmill. He?s certainly been a caballero about his trouncing. I admire him for that. Henry > On Jun 5, 2020, at 3:10 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > (Is this thread American-centric? If so, 'twere a grievous fault. But grievously hath Haydi answered it--I don't think anybody can consider his dense, encyclopaedic blocks of text--the polar opposite of Anthony's American-centric orthography as well as Anthony's style and content--in any way American-centric....) > > Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we read events rather than in the events themselves, Anthony. To me, the situation in and around Washington DC looks very much like the situation in and around Beijing in May1989. As in DC, Beijing had laws preventing the entry of the armed forces other than those of the Beijing Military Region into the city (the exclusion laws were actually written into the Chinese constitution by Mao, who was always afraid of powerful military opponents like Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao). The Beijing Military Region, however, was loyal to the people of Beijing and to the General Secretary Zhao Ziyang, and they opposed to a coup. So, as in DC, the "martial law" forces were called to the city perimeter where they halted for several weeks. As in DC, the provenance of the "martial law" forces were quite mysterious--they didn't carry insignia and it later turned out that these were forces personally loyal to two PLA warlords, the brothers Yang Baibing and Yang Shangkun. As in DC, there were different waves of demonstrators inside the city: someone put up artworks in the square (as the mayor did in DC this morning) and others told people to go home and organize and not stay to be massacred. And then, almost exactly thirty-one years ago, the unmarked shock troops went in shooting, and at least a thousand people died. I hope that part is NOT like DC, but so far the "American exceptionalists" have been proved wrong on every single detail. > > Clorox on cloth? Gadzooks, Peg. Don't Americans have real N-94s yet? At the very height of the Daegu outbreak people had to resort to cloth masks (I don't think anybody used Clorox, though). Then the government brought in a rationing system so that health care workers could get PPE, and the extras are still rationed according to the numbers on registration cards: we go to the pharmacy twice a week to pick up our ration of three masks. No one is allowed onto a bus, a subway, or into a public building without one. Yesterday I went hiking for two hours and whenever I saw someone coming towards me they hastily put on a mask and bowed. > > (Do you know, the largest factory for PPE in the USA, and possibly the world until recently, is 3M in Minneapolis? There's a solid transitional demand for a general strike--Masks for all! Occupy 3M!) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Ul5daExVhX57ADcOvTQ_HCnrre4snCtgLYIoMGGfzHUw1WuT3Lmp3cHDLhFaiyi7J-IDZQ$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Ul5daExVhX57ADcOvTQ_HCnrre4snCtgLYIoMGGfzHUw1WuT3Lmp3cHDLhFaiygncU7M2g$ > > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:30 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know of both. > > > > > > On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach > wrote: > Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are never fixed given that as participants encounter new contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. > > Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be blocked by a timid political leadership . > > For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: > Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: Foundations, findings and future challenges. Educational Research Review, 5, 1?24. > Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions for expansivelearning and transformative agency. Journal of the Learning Sciences, 25(4), 599-633. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200605/bfce30ed/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Jun 5 17:04:24 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 17:04:24 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_=F0=9F=93=84_=22Self-Regulation_through_Distrib?= =?utf-8?q?ution=3A_Censorship_and_the_Comic_Book_Industry_in_1954?= =?utf-8?q?=22_by_Shawna_Kidman?= In-Reply-To: <0100017286481115-c670337a-d3ad-421a-a8f6-d7d28c8fd296-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <0100017286481115-c670337a-d3ad-421a-a8f6-d7d28c8fd296-000000@email.amazonses.com> Message-ID: Speaking of the education of the will............ ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Academia Date: Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 1:59 PM Subject: ? "Self-Regulation through Distribution: Censorship and the Comic Book Industry in 1954" by Shawna Kidman To: Your daily recommended paper? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? [image: Academia.edu] ------------------------------ Dear Mike, You visited Shawna Kidman 's profile. Here are some of their uploaded papers. [image: Profile picture for Shawna Kidman] Shawna Kidman Faculty Member | University of California, San Diego [image: Paper Thumbnail] Self-Regulation through Distribution: Censorship and the Comic Book Industry in 1954 View PDF ? Download PDF ? ------------------------------ 580 California St., Suite 400, San Francisco, CA, 94104 Unsubscribe Privacy Policy Terms of Service ? 2020 Academia -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Q3680MVqPvIVc-NDqrE04BJNEvwMqLZ8GYshl6P9-rk4kwCuVziBNCqztC4Fv3ECJlF0gQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200605/5451fb98/attachment.html From haydizulfei@gmail.com Sat Jun 6 02:59:59 2020 From: haydizulfei@gmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 14:29:59 +0430 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <09D1CFD1-2A48-4F96-B61F-9FAABFDCD397@gmail.com> References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <09D1CFD1-2A48-4F96-B61F-9FAABFDCD397@gmail.com> Message-ID: JUNE 4, 2020Our History is Our Future by JOHN DAVIS Facebook Twitter Reddit Email Christopher Columbus on Santa Mar?a in 1492, oil ? Public Domain We can be sure that the public grandiloquence of Barack Obama grated mightily on at least half of the country during his eight years in the Oval Office. Now, we Libtards find every Trump tweet excruciatingly inane ? or horrifyingly inflammatory. As ever, it is the style, not the content, of American political leadership that is in question. For Its neoliberal ideology has been unwavering for four decades and is but the contemporary version of an implicitly racist dedication to the well-being of the wealthy that was fundamental to the founding of the Republic. Committed to the economization of all facets of public and private life, we citizens are remade as human capital: mini entrepreneurs whose only civic duty is towards pumping up the GDP. This is what our government demands of us, and we would be foolish to expect more from it than further destruction of the public realm and further trivialization of the democratic process. Having relinquished our individual roles as a necessary part of the Republic?s sovereignty, our vote is rendered superfluous at a time of a viral pandemic, unprecedented unemployment and expectations of further economic dislocation likely to eclipse the melt-down of 2008. On a weekend when the nation?s streets exploded in violent protest against racialized police brutality, the President and the Vice President chose to attend a manned rocket launch contracted by SpaceX, a private corporation. Politics have been dethroned, the public realm abandoned and the public good forsaken. Trump is ascendant, his sun-bronzed, narcissistic gaze reflected in the ruddy glow of burning streets. His military, on high alert, awaits its orders. Our smoldering streets may no longer be safe for Trump?s ?warriors? attempting, around the country, to fully re-open the American economy. Many will doubtless now enlist as his Law and Order ?vigilantes?. Neoliberalism demands the appearance of vibrant, life-sustaining markets. Trump has seen the financial indices decline as the epidemic curve has arced skyward, but his focus has always been on economic rather than public health. He, and his ?warriors?, are quite prepared to sacrifice ?flattening the curve? for the sake of a rising Dow but his calculus must now include appeasing his newly enrolled ?vigilantes? while not entirely disaffecting African Americans. Neoliberalism, as the SARS-CoV-2 viral pandemic and the uprising demonstrate, is this country?s comorbidity ? a precondition making it extremely susceptible to both viral disease and to the recapitulation of long-ago racial injustice. In, The Road to Serfdom , 1944, Friedrich Hayek, the Anglo-Austrian economist, explicitly equates the freedom of the individual with the unfettered workings of the market. By way of contrast, he identifies the centralized economic planning evidenced in National Socialism, Communism and Social Democracies as inevitably trending towards totalitarianism. He suggests that governments restrict all attempts to establish social objectives and by extension, any encouragement of the citizen?s role in shaping these objectives. In other words, he recommends abandoning both the social and the political realm in favor of the invisible hand of the market, a goal that continues to inform neoliberalism as it is practiced across Europe and the Americas, and is the ruling ideology that has shaped the United States since the election of Ronald Reagan in 1980. Hayek?s ideas, developed out of his deeply felt reaction to German and Soviet totalitarianism, have had disastrous consequences in the United States where the gross injustices of its past continue to haunt its present, and where its best moments have been enshrined in exactly the kind of social objectives, such as FDR?s New Deal and LBJ?s Great Society, that Hayek spurns. In the 1830?s, the two signature, home-grown horrors that have shaped American history, the genocidal eradication of indigenous peoples and slavery, coalesced in President Andrew Jackson?s ?Indian Removals? which aimed to deport a number of surviving Indian tribes to west of the Mississippi to make way for the establishment of further industrial cotton plantations. This expansion of slavery was partly funded by securitized bonds, sold in New York, London, Paris, and other finance capitals, in a process that involved the financialization of human flesh. The violence necessary to convert slaves into a fungible commodity had existed for over two centuries, practiced in their initial capture in Africa, in their transportation, and in their work. The stain of slavery was then embedded in the capital generated by the cotton crop which went on to be invested in the Industrial Revolution and formed the basis for this country?s extravagant wealth. It is a wealth that has not been shared by most of its citizens. The highly visible murders of Ahmaud Arbery and George Floyd, performed on the street and reprised endlessly as viral videos on social media, go to the heart of this country?s racialized hierarchies established in 1492 and then compounded in 1619, with the arrival of the first shipment of African slaves introduced to this country as stolen human capital. Neoliberalism has made human capital of us all, but has vastly accentuated the wealth divide because, as Piketty has shown, it is from investment and inherited wealth that the rich are made ? not from an honest day?s work. The majority of the U.S. population, and certainly most African Americans, rely not on wealth from inheritance or investments, but on the mythology of the equitable rule of law and equal economic opportunity. As the looting component of the uprising suggests, egregious racialized murder exposes an awareness of this country?s endemic economic injustice. Nick Estes writes in, Our History is the Future , 2019, ?Indigenous elimination, in all its orientations, is the organizing principle of settler society.? In documenting the Lakota tribes? struggles to prevent the Dakota Access Pipeline passing under, and across sacred indigenous lands, Estes lauds the ongoing struggles of native peoples to resist a colonizing civilization that possesses an overbearing commercial ethic which leaves little room for the recognition of other, non-material values. Across the continent, indigenous peoples regarded the native soil, along with its flora and fauna, as co-creators of their lives, and the concept of its individual ownership was unthinkable. Genocide after genocide has still not entirely eliminated their awareness of belonging to the land ? ever in conflict with those who so clearly prize the value of individual ownership, property rights and, of course, the strange notion that the land belongs to them. It is in this country?s varied civilizational currents that the supreme value of the almighty dollar emerged. As a nation, we have bought and sold people, bought and sold the land?s natural beneficences, and now we have sold our sovereign right to vote to corporations that exist only to give succor to their owners and shareholders. The neoliberalism that was created out of a fear of totalitarianism has now made societies beholden to a totalized economy in which all is subsumed. Its values are those of the market, entirely blind to the human concerns of a richly diverse population many of whom it makes vulnerable to an ever increasing precarity in their livelihood, housing and health care. The current pandemic, natural disasters, debt crises, and recessions expose the venal character of this prevailing ideology, while emergency relief and bailouts are leveraged by the wealthy to expand capital in readiness for the next ?recovery? ? widening the corrosive gulf between the rich and everybody else. As a Native American academic, Estes celebrates his peoples? ongoing resistance to the dominant culture, established shortly after 1492. By declaring that ?Our History is Our Future?, he is committing to a continuance of this struggle. White members of the dominant culture can find no such guidance in their past. We see our history reenacted in violence and racial injustice entirely too often to wish it to be our future. We suppress our past and fear our future for good reason. Neoliberalism has obliterated the conditions for democracy by concentrating wealth, eschewing the public good and causing civility to be drowned out by over-amplified, profit-seeking media. The democracy that now struggles to exist in this country, does so only as a fully financialized product fertilized by corporate money featuring a roster of politicians pitifully beholden to the special interests that support their reelection campaigns. Estes is right to reaffirm his peoples? history. Our salvation might be in confronting ours. Join the debate on Facebook More articles by:JOHN DAVIS *John Davis* is an architect living in southern California. Read more of his writing at urbanwildland.org On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:58 AM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > IMHO > David says, "Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in > the way we read events rather than in the events themselves.? I am thinking > about what Andy Blunden said, something to the effect that every experience > is both mediated and un-mediated. Anthony seems to be looking for something > more objective, something that transcends ideology. David K. might object > that the facts of murderous and explotative British and French colonialism > and the brutality of the Chinese regime are simply the facts, the kinds of > facts that drive the passion and compassion of the people on the street in > the U.S. Let cool heads prevail? That is the Cartesian take. The Spinoza > turn in Vygotsky circles would conclude that without affect (passion and > compassion) reason is impossible. Perhaps Anthony?s quest is Quixotic, laid > out on the windmill. He?s certainly been a caballero about his trouncing. I > admire him for that. > Henry > > On Jun 5, 2020, at 3:10 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > (Is this thread American-centric? If so, 'twere a grievous fault. But > grievously hath Haydi answered it--I don't think anybody can consider his > dense, encyclopaedic blocks of text--the polar opposite of Anthony's > American-centric orthography as well as Anthony's style and content--in any > way American-centric....) > > Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we > read events rather than in the events themselves, Anthony. To me, the > situation in and around Washington DC looks very much like the situation in > and around Beijing in May1989. As in DC, Beijing had laws preventing the > entry of the armed forces other than those of the Beijing Military > Region into the city (the exclusion laws were actually written into the > Chinese constitution by Mao, who was always afraid of powerful military > opponents like Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao). The Beijing Military Region, > however, was loyal to the people of Beijing and to the General Secretary > Zhao Ziyang, and they opposed to a coup. So, as in DC, the "martial law" > forces were called to the city perimeter where they halted for several > weeks. As in DC, the provenance of the "martial law" forces were quite > mysterious--they didn't carry insignia and it later turned out that these > were forces personally loyal to two PLA warlords, the brothers Yang Baibing > and Yang Shangkun. As in DC, there were different waves of demonstrators > inside the city: someone put up artworks in the square (as the mayor did in > DC this morning) and others told people to go home and organize and not > stay to be massacred. And then, almost exactly thirty-one years ago, the > unmarked shock troops went in shooting, and at least a thousand people > died. I hope that part is NOT like DC, but so far the "American > exceptionalists" have been proved wrong on every single detail. > > Clorox on cloth? Gadzooks, Peg. Don't Americans have real N-94s yet? At > the very height of the Daegu outbreak people had to resort to cloth masks > (I don't think anybody used Clorox, though). Then the government brought in > a rationing system so that health care workers could get PPE, and the > extras are still rationed according to the numbers on registration cards: > we go to the pharmacy twice a week to pick up our ration of three masks. No > one is allowed onto a bus, a subway, or into a public building without one. > Yesterday I went hiking for two hours and whenever I saw someone coming > towards me they hastily put on a mask and bowed. > > (Do you know, the largest factory for PPE in the USA, and possibly the > world until recently, is 3M in Minneapolis? There's a solid > transitional demand for a general strike--Masks for all! Occupy 3M!) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QBXazVXy1SkAkzqdJmb5h8ucrpgB-tU7Z_YKk7Qb_w584txYAx1JT319WFS2uXa7iTB9tw$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QBXazVXy1SkAkzqdJmb5h8ucrpgB-tU7Z_YKk7Qb_w584txYAx1JT319WFS2uXZTX9ddEA$ > > > > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:30 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know >> of both. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach wrote: >> >>> Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive >>> in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are >>> never fixed given that as participants encounter new >>> contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. >>> This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms >>> as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. >>> >>> Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires >>> ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives >>> given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t >>> necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be >>> blocked by a timid political leadership >>> >>> . >>> >>> For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: >>> Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: >>> Foundations, findings and future challenges. *Educational Research >>> Review, 5*, 1?24. >>> Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions >>> for expansivelearning and transformative agency. *Journal of the >>> Learning Sciences, 25*(4), 599-633. >>> >>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200606/d392036d/attachment.html From haydizulfei@gmail.com Sat Jun 6 03:40:00 2020 From: haydizulfei@gmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 15:10:00 +0430 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <09D1CFD1-2A48-4F96-B61F-9FAABFDCD397@gmail.com> Message-ID: Returning to normal? by michael roberts The recent release of the US jobs data for May, which apparently showed a reduction in the unemployment rate from April, sparked a sharp rally in the US stock market. And if you were to follow the stock markets of the major economies, you would think that the world economy was racing back to normal as the lockdowns imposed by most governments to combat the spread of COVID-19 pandemic are relaxed and even ended. The stock markets of the world, after dropping precipitately when the lockdowns began, have rocketed back towards previous record levels over the last two months. This rally has been driven, first, by the humungous injections of money and credit into the financial system by the major central banks. This has enabled banks and companies to borrow at zero or negative rates with credit guaranteed by the state, so no danger of loss from default. At the same time, governments in the US, UK and Europe have made direct bailout funds to major companies stricken by the lockdowns, like airlines, auto and aircraft makers, leisure companies etc. It?s a feature of the 21st century that central banks have become the principal support mechanism for the financial system, propping up the leverage that had grown during the ?great moderation? a phenomenon that I detailed in my book, The Long Depression . This has combated the low profitability in the productive value-creating sectors of the world capitalist economy. Companies have increasingly switched funds into financial assets where investors can borrow at very low rates of interest to buy and sell stocks and bonds and make capital gains. The largest companies have been buying back their own shares to boost prices. In effect, what Marx called 'fictitious capital' has risen in ?value? while real value has stagnated or fallen. On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 2:29 PM Haydi Zulfei wrote: > JUNE 4, 2020Our History is Our Future > by JOHN > DAVIS > Facebook Twitter > Reddit > Email > > > > Christopher Columbus on Santa Mar?a in 1492, oil ? Public Domain > > We can be sure that the public grandiloquence of Barack Obama grated > mightily on at least half of the country during his eight years in the Oval > Office. Now, we Libtards find every Trump tweet excruciatingly inane ? or > horrifyingly inflammatory. As ever, it is the style, not the content, of > American political leadership that is in question. For Its neoliberal > ideology has been unwavering for four decades and is but the contemporary > version of an implicitly racist dedication to the well-being of the wealthy > that was fundamental to the founding of the Republic. Committed to the > economization of all facets of public and private life, we citizens are > remade as human capital: mini entrepreneurs whose only civic duty is > towards pumping up the GDP. This is what our government demands of us, and > we would be foolish to expect more from it than further destruction of the > public realm and further trivialization of the democratic process. Having > relinquished our individual roles as a necessary part of the Republic?s > sovereignty, our vote is rendered superfluous at a time of a viral > pandemic, unprecedented unemployment and expectations of further economic > dislocation likely to eclipse the melt-down of 2008. > > On a weekend when the nation?s streets exploded in violent protest against > racialized police brutality, the President and the Vice President chose to > attend a manned rocket launch contracted by SpaceX, a private corporation. > Politics have been dethroned, the public realm abandoned and the public > good forsaken. Trump is ascendant, his sun-bronzed, narcissistic gaze > reflected in the ruddy glow of burning streets. His military, on high > alert, awaits its orders. > > Our smoldering streets may no longer be safe for Trump?s ?warriors? > attempting, around the country, to fully re-open the American economy. Many > will doubtless now enlist as his Law and Order ?vigilantes?. Neoliberalism > demands the appearance of vibrant, life-sustaining markets. Trump has seen > the financial > indices decline as the epidemic curve has arced skyward, but his focus has > always been on economic rather than public health. He, and his ?warriors?, > are quite prepared to sacrifice ?flattening the curve? for the sake of a > rising Dow but his calculus must now include appeasing his newly enrolled > ?vigilantes? while not entirely disaffecting African Americans. > > Neoliberalism, as the SARS-CoV-2 viral pandemic and the uprising > demonstrate, is this country?s comorbidity ? a precondition making it > extremely susceptible to both viral disease and to the recapitulation of > long-ago racial injustice. In, The Road to Serfdom > , > 1944, Friedrich Hayek, the Anglo-Austrian economist, explicitly equates the > freedom of the individual with the unfettered workings of the market. By > way of contrast, he identifies the centralized economic planning evidenced > in National Socialism, Communism and Social Democracies as inevitably > trending towards totalitarianism. He suggests that governments restrict all > attempts to establish social objectives and by extension, any encouragement > of the citizen?s role in shaping these objectives. In other words, he > recommends abandoning both the social and the political realm in favor of > the invisible hand of the market, a goal that continues to inform > neoliberalism as it is practiced across Europe and the Americas, and is the > ruling ideology that has shaped the United States since the election of > Ronald Reagan in 1980. Hayek?s ideas, developed out of his deeply felt > reaction to German and Soviet totalitarianism, have had disastrous > consequences in the United States where the gross injustices of its past > continue to haunt its present, and where its best moments have been > enshrined in exactly the kind of social objectives, such as FDR?s New Deal > and LBJ?s Great Society, that Hayek spurns. > > In the 1830?s, the two signature, home-grown horrors that have shaped > American history, the genocidal eradication of indigenous peoples and > slavery, coalesced in President Andrew Jackson?s ?Indian Removals? which > aimed to deport a number of surviving Indian tribes to west of the > Mississippi to make way for the establishment of further industrial cotton > plantations. This expansion of slavery > was > partly funded by securitized bonds, sold in New York, London, Paris, and > other finance capitals, in a process that involved the financialization of > human flesh. The violence necessary to convert slaves into a fungible > commodity had existed for over two centuries, practiced in their initial > capture in Africa, in their transportation, and in their work. The stain of > slavery was then embedded in the capital generated by the cotton crop which > went on to be invested in the Industrial Revolution and formed the basis > for this country?s extravagant wealth. It is a wealth that has not been > shared by most of its citizens. > > The highly visible murders of Ahmaud Arbery and George Floyd, performed on > the street and reprised endlessly as viral videos on social media, go to > the heart of this country?s racialized hierarchies established in 1492 and > then compounded in 1619, with the arrival of the first shipment of African > slaves introduced to this country as stolen human capital. Neoliberalism > has made human capital of us all, but has vastly accentuated the wealth > divide because, as Piketty has shown, it is from investment and inherited > wealth that the rich are made ? not from an honest day?s work. The majority > of the U.S. population, and certainly most African Americans, rely not on > wealth from inheritance or investments, but on the mythology of the > equitable rule of law and equal economic opportunity. As the looting > component of the uprising suggests, egregious racialized murder exposes an > awareness of this country?s endemic economic injustice. > > Nick Estes writes in, Our History is the Future > , > 2019, ?Indigenous elimination, in all its orientations, is the organizing > principle of settler society.? In documenting the Lakota tribes? struggles > to prevent the Dakota Access Pipeline passing under, and across sacred > indigenous lands, Estes lauds the ongoing struggles of native peoples to > resist a colonizing civilization that possesses an overbearing commercial > ethic which leaves little room for the recognition of other, non-material > values. Across the continent, indigenous peoples regarded the native soil, > along with its flora and fauna, as co-creators of their lives, and the > concept of its individual ownership was unthinkable. Genocide after > genocide has still not entirely eliminated their awareness of belonging to > the land ? ever in conflict with those who so clearly prize the value of > individual ownership, property rights and, of course, the strange notion > that the land belongs to them. > > It is in this country?s varied civilizational currents that the supreme > value of the almighty dollar emerged. As a nation, we have bought and sold > people, bought and sold the land?s natural beneficences, and now we have > sold our sovereign right to vote to corporations that exist only to give > succor to their owners and shareholders. The neoliberalism that was created > out of a fear of totalitarianism has now made societies beholden to a > totalized economy in which all is subsumed. Its values are those of the > market, entirely blind to the human concerns of a richly diverse population > many of whom it makes vulnerable to an ever increasing precarity in their > livelihood, housing and health care. The current pandemic, natural > disasters, debt crises, and recessions expose the venal character of this > prevailing ideology, while emergency relief and bailouts are leveraged by > the wealthy to expand capital in readiness for the next ?recovery? ? > widening the corrosive gulf between the rich and everybody else. > > As a Native American academic, Estes celebrates his peoples? ongoing > resistance to the dominant culture, established shortly after 1492. By > declaring that ?Our History is Our Future?, he is committing to a > continuance of this struggle. White members of the dominant culture can > find no such guidance in their past. We see our history reenacted in > violence and racial injustice entirely too often to wish it to be our > future. We suppress our past and fear our future for good reason. > > Neoliberalism has obliterated the conditions for democracy by > concentrating wealth, eschewing the public good and causing civility to be > drowned out by over-amplified, profit-seeking media. The democracy that now > struggles to exist in this country, does so only as a fully financialized > product fertilized by corporate money featuring a roster of politicians > pitifully beholden to the special interests that support their reelection > campaigns. Estes is right to reaffirm his peoples? history. Our salvation > might be in confronting ours. > Join the debate on Facebook > > More articles by:JOHN DAVIS > > > *John Davis* is an architect living in southern California. Read more of > his writing at urbanwildland.org > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:58 AM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> >> IMHO >> David says, "Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in >> the way we read events rather than in the events themselves.? I am thinking >> about what Andy Blunden said, something to the effect that every experience >> is both mediated and un-mediated. Anthony seems to be looking for something >> more objective, something that transcends ideology. David K. might object >> that the facts of murderous and explotative British and French colonialism >> and the brutality of the Chinese regime are simply the facts, the kinds of >> facts that drive the passion and compassion of the people on the street in >> the U.S. Let cool heads prevail? That is the Cartesian take. The Spinoza >> turn in Vygotsky circles would conclude that without affect (passion and >> compassion) reason is impossible. Perhaps Anthony?s quest is Quixotic, laid >> out on the windmill. He?s certainly been a caballero about his trouncing. I >> admire him for that. >> Henry >> >> On Jun 5, 2020, at 3:10 PM, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> (Is this thread American-centric? If so, 'twere a grievous fault. But >> grievously hath Haydi answered it--I don't think anybody can consider his >> dense, encyclopaedic blocks of text--the polar opposite of Anthony's >> American-centric orthography as well as Anthony's style and content--in any >> way American-centric....) >> >> Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we >> read events rather than in the events themselves, Anthony. To me, the >> situation in and around Washington DC looks very much like the situation in >> and around Beijing in May1989. As in DC, Beijing had laws preventing the >> entry of the armed forces other than those of the Beijing Military >> Region into the city (the exclusion laws were actually written into the >> Chinese constitution by Mao, who was always afraid of powerful military >> opponents like Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao). The Beijing Military Region, >> however, was loyal to the people of Beijing and to the General Secretary >> Zhao Ziyang, and they opposed to a coup. So, as in DC, the "martial law" >> forces were called to the city perimeter where they halted for several >> weeks. As in DC, the provenance of the "martial law" forces were quite >> mysterious--they didn't carry insignia and it later turned out that these >> were forces personally loyal to two PLA warlords, the brothers Yang Baibing >> and Yang Shangkun. As in DC, there were different waves of demonstrators >> inside the city: someone put up artworks in the square (as the mayor did in >> DC this morning) and others told people to go home and organize and not >> stay to be massacred. And then, almost exactly thirty-one years ago, the >> unmarked shock troops went in shooting, and at least a thousand people >> died. I hope that part is NOT like DC, but so far the "American >> exceptionalists" have been proved wrong on every single detail. >> >> Clorox on cloth? Gadzooks, Peg. Don't Americans have real N-94s yet? At >> the very height of the Daegu outbreak people had to resort to cloth masks >> (I don't think anybody used Clorox, though). Then the government brought in >> a rationing system so that health care workers could get PPE, and the >> extras are still rationed according to the numbers on registration cards: >> we go to the pharmacy twice a week to pick up our ration of three masks. No >> one is allowed onto a bus, a subway, or into a public building without one. >> Yesterday I went hiking for two hours and whenever I saw someone coming >> towards me they hastily put on a mask and bowed. >> >> (Do you know, the largest factory for PPE in the USA, and possibly the >> world until recently, is 3M in Minneapolis? There's a solid >> transitional demand for a general strike--Masks for all! Occupy 3M!) >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UtyCa1bWPX2Q1DQWekgi1dnXAf57VJ11_oqiTk8FTICmT5TIMMhdrjRh0Mi_rPbQ2xKwBw$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UtyCa1bWPX2Q1DQWekgi1dnXAf57VJ11_oqiTk8FTICmT5TIMMhdrjRh0Mi_rPZz6BduDg$ >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:30 PM Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >>> Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know >>> of both. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach wrote: >>> >>>> Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive >>>> in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are >>>> never fixed given that as participants encounter new >>>> contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. >>>> This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms >>>> as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. >>>> >>>> Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires >>>> ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives >>>> given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t >>>> necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be >>>> blocked by a timid political leadership >>>> >>>> . >>>> >>>> For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: >>>> Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: >>>> Foundations, findings and future challenges. *Educational Research >>>> Review, 5*, 1?24. >>>> Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions >>>> for expansivelearning and transformative agency. *Journal of the >>>> Learning Sciences, 25*(4), 599-633. >>>> >>>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200606/eeac054c/attachment.html From haydizulfei@gmail.com Sat Jun 6 03:45:40 2020 From: haydizulfei@gmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 15:15:40 +0430 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <09D1CFD1-2A48-4F96-B61F-9FAABFDCD397@gmail.com> Message-ID: [image: image.png] On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:10 PM Haydi Zulfei wrote: > > Returning > to normal? > > by michael roberts > > > The recent release of the US jobs data for May, which apparently showed a > reduction in the unemployment rate from April, sparked a sharp rally in the > US stock market. And if you were to follow the stock markets of the major > economies, you would think that the world economy was racing back to normal > as the lockdowns imposed by most governments to combat the spread of > COVID-19 pandemic are relaxed and even ended. > > The stock markets of the world, after dropping precipitately when the > lockdowns began, have rocketed back towards previous record levels over the > last two months. This rally has been driven, first, by the humungous > injections of money and credit into the financial system by the major > central banks. This has enabled banks and companies to borrow at zero or > negative rates with credit guaranteed by the state, so no danger of loss > from default. At the same time, governments in the US, UK and Europe have > made direct bailout funds to major companies stricken by the lockdowns, > like airlines, auto and aircraft makers, leisure companies etc. > > It?s a feature of the 21st century that central banks have become the > principal support mechanism for the financial system, propping up the > leverage that had grown during the ?great moderation? a phenomenon that I > detailed in my book, The Long Depression > . This has > combated the low profitability in the productive value-creating sectors of > the world capitalist economy. Companies have increasingly switched funds > into financial assets where investors can borrow at very low rates of > interest to buy and sell stocks and bonds and make capital gains. The > largest companies have been buying back their own shares to boost prices. > In effect, what Marx called 'fictitious capital' has risen in ?value? while > real value has stagnated or fallen. > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 2:29 PM Haydi Zulfei wrote: > >> JUNE 4, 2020Our History is Our Future >> by JOHN >> DAVIS >> Facebook Twitter >> Reddit >> Email >> >> >> >> Christopher Columbus on Santa Mar?a in 1492, oil ? Public Domain >> >> We can be sure that the public grandiloquence of Barack Obama grated >> mightily on at least half of the country during his eight years in the Oval >> Office. Now, we Libtards find every Trump tweet excruciatingly inane ? or >> horrifyingly inflammatory. As ever, it is the style, not the content, of >> American political leadership that is in question. For Its neoliberal >> ideology has been unwavering for four decades and is but the contemporary >> version of an implicitly racist dedication to the well-being of the wealthy >> that was fundamental to the founding of the Republic. Committed to the >> economization of all facets of public and private life, we citizens are >> remade as human capital: mini entrepreneurs whose only civic duty is >> towards pumping up the GDP. This is what our government demands of us, and >> we would be foolish to expect more from it than further destruction of the >> public realm and further trivialization of the democratic process. Having >> relinquished our individual roles as a necessary part of the Republic?s >> sovereignty, our vote is rendered superfluous at a time of a viral >> pandemic, unprecedented unemployment and expectations of further economic >> dislocation likely to eclipse the melt-down of 2008. >> >> On a weekend when the nation?s streets exploded in violent protest >> against racialized police brutality, the President and the Vice President >> chose to attend a manned rocket launch contracted by SpaceX, a private >> corporation. Politics have been dethroned, the public realm abandoned and >> the public good forsaken. Trump is ascendant, his sun-bronzed, narcissistic >> gaze reflected in the ruddy glow of burning streets. His military, on high >> alert, awaits its orders. >> >> Our smoldering streets may no longer be safe for Trump?s ?warriors? >> attempting, around the country, to fully re-open the American economy. Many >> will doubtless now enlist as his Law and Order ?vigilantes?. Neoliberalism >> demands the appearance of vibrant, life-sustaining markets. Trump has seen >> the financial >> indices decline as the epidemic curve has arced skyward, but his focus >> has always been on economic rather than public health. He, and his >> ?warriors?, are quite prepared to sacrifice ?flattening the curve? for the >> sake of a rising Dow but his calculus must now include appeasing his newly >> enrolled ?vigilantes? while not entirely disaffecting African Americans. >> >> Neoliberalism, as the SARS-CoV-2 viral pandemic and the uprising >> demonstrate, is this country?s comorbidity ? a precondition making it >> extremely susceptible to both viral disease and to the recapitulation of >> long-ago racial injustice. In, The Road to Serfdom >> , >> 1944, Friedrich Hayek, the Anglo-Austrian economist, explicitly equates the >> freedom of the individual with the unfettered workings of the market. By >> way of contrast, he identifies the centralized economic planning evidenced >> in National Socialism, Communism and Social Democracies as inevitably >> trending towards totalitarianism. He suggests that governments restrict all >> attempts to establish social objectives and by extension, any encouragement >> of the citizen?s role in shaping these objectives. In other words, he >> recommends abandoning both the social and the political realm in favor of >> the invisible hand of the market, a goal that continues to inform >> neoliberalism as it is practiced across Europe and the Americas, and is the >> ruling ideology that has shaped the United States since the election of >> Ronald Reagan in 1980. Hayek?s ideas, developed out of his deeply felt >> reaction to German and Soviet totalitarianism, have had disastrous >> consequences in the United States where the gross injustices of its past >> continue to haunt its present, and where its best moments have been >> enshrined in exactly the kind of social objectives, such as FDR?s New Deal >> and LBJ?s Great Society, that Hayek spurns. >> >> In the 1830?s, the two signature, home-grown horrors that have shaped >> American history, the genocidal eradication of indigenous peoples and >> slavery, coalesced in President Andrew Jackson?s ?Indian Removals? which >> aimed to deport a number of surviving Indian tribes to west of the >> Mississippi to make way for the establishment of further industrial cotton >> plantations. This expansion of slavery >> was >> partly funded by securitized bonds, sold in New York, London, Paris, and >> other finance capitals, in a process that involved the financialization of >> human flesh. The violence necessary to convert slaves into a fungible >> commodity had existed for over two centuries, practiced in their initial >> capture in Africa, in their transportation, and in their work. The stain of >> slavery was then embedded in the capital generated by the cotton crop which >> went on to be invested in the Industrial Revolution and formed the basis >> for this country?s extravagant wealth. It is a wealth that has not been >> shared by most of its citizens. >> >> The highly visible murders of Ahmaud Arbery and George Floyd, performed >> on the street and reprised endlessly as viral videos on social media, go to >> the heart of this country?s racialized hierarchies established in 1492 and >> then compounded in 1619, with the arrival of the first shipment of African >> slaves introduced to this country as stolen human capital. Neoliberalism >> has made human capital of us all, but has vastly accentuated the wealth >> divide because, as Piketty has shown, it is from investment and inherited >> wealth that the rich are made ? not from an honest day?s work. The majority >> of the U.S. population, and certainly most African Americans, rely not on >> wealth from inheritance or investments, but on the mythology of the >> equitable rule of law and equal economic opportunity. As the looting >> component of the uprising suggests, egregious racialized murder exposes an >> awareness of this country?s endemic economic injustice. >> >> Nick Estes writes in, Our History is the Future >> , >> 2019, ?Indigenous elimination, in all its orientations, is the organizing >> principle of settler society.? In documenting the Lakota tribes? struggles >> to prevent the Dakota Access Pipeline passing under, and across sacred >> indigenous lands, Estes lauds the ongoing struggles of native peoples to >> resist a colonizing civilization that possesses an overbearing commercial >> ethic which leaves little room for the recognition of other, non-material >> values. Across the continent, indigenous peoples regarded the native soil, >> along with its flora and fauna, as co-creators of their lives, and the >> concept of its individual ownership was unthinkable. Genocide after >> genocide has still not entirely eliminated their awareness of belonging to >> the land ? ever in conflict with those who so clearly prize the value of >> individual ownership, property rights and, of course, the strange notion >> that the land belongs to them. >> >> It is in this country?s varied civilizational currents that the supreme >> value of the almighty dollar emerged. As a nation, we have bought and sold >> people, bought and sold the land?s natural beneficences, and now we have >> sold our sovereign right to vote to corporations that exist only to give >> succor to their owners and shareholders. The neoliberalism that was created >> out of a fear of totalitarianism has now made societies beholden to a >> totalized economy in which all is subsumed. Its values are those of the >> market, entirely blind to the human concerns of a richly diverse population >> many of whom it makes vulnerable to an ever increasing precarity in their >> livelihood, housing and health care. The current pandemic, natural >> disasters, debt crises, and recessions expose the venal character of this >> prevailing ideology, while emergency relief and bailouts are leveraged by >> the wealthy to expand capital in readiness for the next ?recovery? ? >> widening the corrosive gulf between the rich and everybody else. >> >> As a Native American academic, Estes celebrates his peoples? ongoing >> resistance to the dominant culture, established shortly after 1492. By >> declaring that ?Our History is Our Future?, he is committing to a >> continuance of this struggle. White members of the dominant culture can >> find no such guidance in their past. We see our history reenacted in >> violence and racial injustice entirely too often to wish it to be our >> future. We suppress our past and fear our future for good reason. >> >> Neoliberalism has obliterated the conditions for democracy by >> concentrating wealth, eschewing the public good and causing civility to be >> drowned out by over-amplified, profit-seeking media. The democracy that now >> struggles to exist in this country, does so only as a fully financialized >> product fertilized by corporate money featuring a roster of politicians >> pitifully beholden to the special interests that support their reelection >> campaigns. Estes is right to reaffirm his peoples? history. Our salvation >> might be in confronting ours. >> Join the debate on Facebook >> >> More articles by:JOHN DAVIS >> >> >> *John Davis* is an architect living in southern California. Read more of >> his writing at urbanwildland.org >> >> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:58 AM HENRY SHONERD wrote: >> >>> >>> IMHO >>> David says, "Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in >>> the way we read events rather than in the events themselves.? I am thinking >>> about what Andy Blunden said, something to the effect that every experience >>> is both mediated and un-mediated. Anthony seems to be looking for something >>> more objective, something that transcends ideology. David K. might object >>> that the facts of murderous and explotative British and French colonialism >>> and the brutality of the Chinese regime are simply the facts, the kinds of >>> facts that drive the passion and compassion of the people on the street in >>> the U.S. Let cool heads prevail? That is the Cartesian take. The Spinoza >>> turn in Vygotsky circles would conclude that without affect (passion and >>> compassion) reason is impossible. Perhaps Anthony?s quest is Quixotic, laid >>> out on the windmill. He?s certainly been a caballero about his trouncing. I >>> admire him for that. >>> Henry >>> >>> On Jun 5, 2020, at 3:10 PM, David Kellogg wrote: >>> >>> (Is this thread American-centric? If so, 'twere a grievous fault. But >>> grievously hath Haydi answered it--I don't think anybody can consider his >>> dense, encyclopaedic blocks of text--the polar opposite of Anthony's >>> American-centric orthography as well as Anthony's style and content--in any >>> way American-centric....) >>> >>> Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we >>> read events rather than in the events themselves, Anthony. To me, the >>> situation in and around Washington DC looks very much like the situation in >>> and around Beijing in May1989. As in DC, Beijing had laws preventing the >>> entry of the armed forces other than those of the Beijing Military >>> Region into the city (the exclusion laws were actually written into the >>> Chinese constitution by Mao, who was always afraid of powerful military >>> opponents like Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao). The Beijing Military Region, >>> however, was loyal to the people of Beijing and to the General Secretary >>> Zhao Ziyang, and they opposed to a coup. So, as in DC, the "martial law" >>> forces were called to the city perimeter where they halted for several >>> weeks. As in DC, the provenance of the "martial law" forces were quite >>> mysterious--they didn't carry insignia and it later turned out that these >>> were forces personally loyal to two PLA warlords, the brothers Yang Baibing >>> and Yang Shangkun. As in DC, there were different waves of demonstrators >>> inside the city: someone put up artworks in the square (as the mayor did in >>> DC this morning) and others told people to go home and organize and not >>> stay to be massacred. And then, almost exactly thirty-one years ago, the >>> unmarked shock troops went in shooting, and at least a thousand people >>> died. I hope that part is NOT like DC, but so far the "American >>> exceptionalists" have been proved wrong on every single detail. >>> >>> Clorox on cloth? Gadzooks, Peg. Don't Americans have real N-94s yet? At >>> the very height of the Daegu outbreak people had to resort to cloth masks >>> (I don't think anybody used Clorox, though). Then the government brought in >>> a rationing system so that health care workers could get PPE, and the >>> extras are still rationed according to the numbers on registration cards: >>> we go to the pharmacy twice a week to pick up our ration of three masks. No >>> one is allowed onto a bus, a subway, or into a public building without one. >>> Yesterday I went hiking for two hours and whenever I saw someone coming >>> towards me they hastily put on a mask and bowed. >>> >>> (Do you know, the largest factory for PPE in the USA, and possibly the >>> world until recently, is 3M in Minneapolis? There's a solid >>> transitional demand for a general strike--Masks for all! Occupy 3M!) >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UzMEdDO39xPVjd2MsSft7NOtlfoZ7JGdroeuXNvEZMIP9Riq59CC5SWePxav8V2XiJqQNQ$ >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UzMEdDO39xPVjd2MsSft7NOtlfoZ7JGdroeuXNvEZMIP9Riq59CC5SWePxav8V1S10-SZw$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:30 PM Anthony Barra >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I >>>> know of both. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach wrote: >>>> >>>>> Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that >>>>> objects/motive in activity are ideally always open to >>>>> change/transformation?that they are never fixed given that as participants >>>>> encounter new contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new >>>>> objects/motives. This requires learners to be open to exploring optional >>>>> actions/tools/norms as they redefine/revise their ever expanding >>>>> objects/motives. >>>>> >>>>> Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires >>>>> ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives >>>>> given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t >>>>> necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be >>>>> blocked by a timid political leadership >>>>> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: >>>>> Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: >>>>> Foundations, findings and future challenges. *Educational Research >>>>> Review, 5*, 1?24. >>>>> Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative >>>>> interventions for expansivelearning and transformative agency. *Journal >>>>> of the Learning Sciences, 25*(4), 599-633. >>>>> >>>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200606/13ebe4e6/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 360781 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200606/13ebe4e6/attachment-0001.png From haydizulfei@gmail.com Sat Jun 6 04:06:20 2020 From: haydizulfei@gmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 15:36:20 +0430 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <09D1CFD1-2A48-4F96-B61F-9FAABFDCD397@gmail.com> Message-ID: Anna Stetsenko used to be here known to CHAT people. Every now and then she offers good pieces , says this couple of days before that she's going to Occasio-Cortez's Dem Speech invites others to join . One could say Anna is Rep. for one thing and Trump Rep. for another : "leave this country ; back home where you were born" ; Irony of the civil rights ! Rep of the State citizens should be endorsed not by the public law but by the Law in Person ?! The title : If you?re surprised by how the police are acting, you don?t understand US historyMalaika Jabali On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:15 PM Haydi Zulfei wrote: > [image: image.png] > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:10 PM Haydi Zulfei wrote: > >> >> Returning >> to normal? >> >> by michael roberts >> >> >> The recent release of the US jobs data for May, which apparently showed a >> reduction in the unemployment rate from April, sparked a sharp rally in the >> US stock market. And if you were to follow the stock markets of the major >> economies, you would think that the world economy was racing back to normal >> as the lockdowns imposed by most governments to combat the spread of >> COVID-19 pandemic are relaxed and even ended. >> >> The stock markets of the world, after dropping precipitately when the >> lockdowns began, have rocketed back towards previous record levels over the >> last two months. This rally has been driven, first, by the humungous >> injections of money and credit into the financial system by the major >> central banks. This has enabled banks and companies to borrow at zero or >> negative rates with credit guaranteed by the state, so no danger of loss >> from default. At the same time, governments in the US, UK and Europe have >> made direct bailout funds to major companies stricken by the lockdowns, >> like airlines, auto and aircraft makers, leisure companies etc. >> >> It?s a feature of the 21st century that central banks have become the >> principal support mechanism for the financial system, propping up the >> leverage that had grown during the ?great moderation? a phenomenon that I >> detailed in my book, The Long Depression >> . This >> has combated the low profitability in the productive value-creating sectors >> of the world capitalist economy. Companies have increasingly switched >> funds into financial assets where investors can borrow at very low rates of >> interest to buy and sell stocks and bonds and make capital gains. The >> largest companies have been buying back their own shares to boost prices. >> In effect, what Marx called 'fictitious capital' has risen in ?value? while >> real value has stagnated or fallen. >> >> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 2:29 PM Haydi Zulfei >> wrote: >> >>> JUNE 4, 2020Our History is Our Future >>> by JOHN >>> DAVIS >>> Facebook Twitter >>> Reddit >>> Email >>> >>> >>> >>> Christopher Columbus on Santa Mar?a in 1492, oil ? Public Domain >>> >>> We can be sure that the public grandiloquence of Barack Obama grated >>> mightily on at least half of the country during his eight years in the Oval >>> Office. Now, we Libtards find every Trump tweet excruciatingly inane ? or >>> horrifyingly inflammatory. As ever, it is the style, not the content, of >>> American political leadership that is in question. For Its neoliberal >>> ideology has been unwavering for four decades and is but the contemporary >>> version of an implicitly racist dedication to the well-being of the wealthy >>> that was fundamental to the founding of the Republic. Committed to the >>> economization of all facets of public and private life, we citizens are >>> remade as human capital: mini entrepreneurs whose only civic duty is >>> towards pumping up the GDP. This is what our government demands of us, and >>> we would be foolish to expect more from it than further destruction of the >>> public realm and further trivialization of the democratic process. Having >>> relinquished our individual roles as a necessary part of the Republic?s >>> sovereignty, our vote is rendered superfluous at a time of a viral >>> pandemic, unprecedented unemployment and expectations of further economic >>> dislocation likely to eclipse the melt-down of 2008. >>> >>> On a weekend when the nation?s streets exploded in violent protest >>> against racialized police brutality, the President and the Vice President >>> chose to attend a manned rocket launch contracted by SpaceX, a private >>> corporation. Politics have been dethroned, the public realm abandoned and >>> the public good forsaken. Trump is ascendant, his sun-bronzed, narcissistic >>> gaze reflected in the ruddy glow of burning streets. His military, on high >>> alert, awaits its orders. >>> >>> Our smoldering streets may no longer be safe for Trump?s ?warriors? >>> attempting, around the country, to fully re-open the American economy. Many >>> will doubtless now enlist as his Law and Order ?vigilantes?. Neoliberalism >>> demands the appearance of vibrant, life-sustaining markets. Trump has seen >>> the financial >>> indices decline as the epidemic curve has arced skyward, but his focus >>> has always been on economic rather than public health. He, and his >>> ?warriors?, are quite prepared to sacrifice ?flattening the curve? for the >>> sake of a rising Dow but his calculus must now include appeasing his newly >>> enrolled ?vigilantes? while not entirely disaffecting African Americans. >>> >>> Neoliberalism, as the SARS-CoV-2 viral pandemic and the uprising >>> demonstrate, is this country?s comorbidity ? a precondition making it >>> extremely susceptible to both viral disease and to the recapitulation of >>> long-ago racial injustice. In, The Road to Serfdom >>> , >>> 1944, Friedrich Hayek, the Anglo-Austrian economist, explicitly equates the >>> freedom of the individual with the unfettered workings of the market. By >>> way of contrast, he identifies the centralized economic planning evidenced >>> in National Socialism, Communism and Social Democracies as inevitably >>> trending towards totalitarianism. He suggests that governments restrict all >>> attempts to establish social objectives and by extension, any encouragement >>> of the citizen?s role in shaping these objectives. In other words, he >>> recommends abandoning both the social and the political realm in favor of >>> the invisible hand of the market, a goal that continues to inform >>> neoliberalism as it is practiced across Europe and the Americas, and is the >>> ruling ideology that has shaped the United States since the election of >>> Ronald Reagan in 1980. Hayek?s ideas, developed out of his deeply felt >>> reaction to German and Soviet totalitarianism, have had disastrous >>> consequences in the United States where the gross injustices of its past >>> continue to haunt its present, and where its best moments have been >>> enshrined in exactly the kind of social objectives, such as FDR?s New Deal >>> and LBJ?s Great Society, that Hayek spurns. >>> >>> In the 1830?s, the two signature, home-grown horrors that have shaped >>> American history, the genocidal eradication of indigenous peoples and >>> slavery, coalesced in President Andrew Jackson?s ?Indian Removals? which >>> aimed to deport a number of surviving Indian tribes to west of the >>> Mississippi to make way for the establishment of further industrial cotton >>> plantations. This expansion of slavery >>> was >>> partly funded by securitized bonds, sold in New York, London, Paris, and >>> other finance capitals, in a process that involved the financialization of >>> human flesh. The violence necessary to convert slaves into a fungible >>> commodity had existed for over two centuries, practiced in their initial >>> capture in Africa, in their transportation, and in their work. The stain of >>> slavery was then embedded in the capital generated by the cotton crop which >>> went on to be invested in the Industrial Revolution and formed the basis >>> for this country?s extravagant wealth. It is a wealth that has not been >>> shared by most of its citizens. >>> >>> The highly visible murders of Ahmaud Arbery and George Floyd, performed >>> on the street and reprised endlessly as viral videos on social media, go to >>> the heart of this country?s racialized hierarchies established in 1492 and >>> then compounded in 1619, with the arrival of the first shipment of African >>> slaves introduced to this country as stolen human capital. Neoliberalism >>> has made human capital of us all, but has vastly accentuated the wealth >>> divide because, as Piketty has shown, it is from investment and inherited >>> wealth that the rich are made ? not from an honest day?s work. The majority >>> of the U.S. population, and certainly most African Americans, rely not on >>> wealth from inheritance or investments, but on the mythology of the >>> equitable rule of law and equal economic opportunity. As the looting >>> component of the uprising suggests, egregious racialized murder exposes an >>> awareness of this country?s endemic economic injustice. >>> >>> Nick Estes writes in, Our History is the Future >>> , >>> 2019, ?Indigenous elimination, in all its orientations, is the organizing >>> principle of settler society.? In documenting the Lakota tribes? struggles >>> to prevent the Dakota Access Pipeline passing under, and across sacred >>> indigenous lands, Estes lauds the ongoing struggles of native peoples to >>> resist a colonizing civilization that possesses an overbearing commercial >>> ethic which leaves little room for the recognition of other, non-material >>> values. Across the continent, indigenous peoples regarded the native soil, >>> along with its flora and fauna, as co-creators of their lives, and the >>> concept of its individual ownership was unthinkable. Genocide after >>> genocide has still not entirely eliminated their awareness of belonging to >>> the land ? ever in conflict with those who so clearly prize the value of >>> individual ownership, property rights and, of course, the strange notion >>> that the land belongs to them. >>> >>> It is in this country?s varied civilizational currents that the supreme >>> value of the almighty dollar emerged. As a nation, we have bought and sold >>> people, bought and sold the land?s natural beneficences, and now we have >>> sold our sovereign right to vote to corporations that exist only to give >>> succor to their owners and shareholders. The neoliberalism that was created >>> out of a fear of totalitarianism has now made societies beholden to a >>> totalized economy in which all is subsumed. Its values are those of the >>> market, entirely blind to the human concerns of a richly diverse population >>> many of whom it makes vulnerable to an ever increasing precarity in their >>> livelihood, housing and health care. The current pandemic, natural >>> disasters, debt crises, and recessions expose the venal character of this >>> prevailing ideology, while emergency relief and bailouts are leveraged by >>> the wealthy to expand capital in readiness for the next ?recovery? ? >>> widening the corrosive gulf between the rich and everybody else. >>> >>> As a Native American academic, Estes celebrates his peoples? ongoing >>> resistance to the dominant culture, established shortly after 1492. By >>> declaring that ?Our History is Our Future?, he is committing to a >>> continuance of this struggle. White members of the dominant culture can >>> find no such guidance in their past. We see our history reenacted in >>> violence and racial injustice entirely too often to wish it to be our >>> future. We suppress our past and fear our future for good reason. >>> >>> Neoliberalism has obliterated the conditions for democracy by >>> concentrating wealth, eschewing the public good and causing civility to be >>> drowned out by over-amplified, profit-seeking media. The democracy that now >>> struggles to exist in this country, does so only as a fully financialized >>> product fertilized by corporate money featuring a roster of politicians >>> pitifully beholden to the special interests that support their reelection >>> campaigns. Estes is right to reaffirm his peoples? history. Our salvation >>> might be in confronting ours. >>> Join the debate on Facebook >>> >>> More articles by:JOHN DAVIS >>> >>> >>> *John Davis* is an architect living in southern California. Read more >>> of his writing at urbanwildland.org >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:58 AM HENRY SHONERD wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> IMHO >>>> David says, "Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is >>>> in the way we read events rather than in the events themselves.? I am >>>> thinking about what Andy Blunden said, something to the effect that every >>>> experience is both mediated and un-mediated. Anthony seems to be looking >>>> for something more objective, something that transcends ideology. David K. >>>> might object that the facts of murderous and explotative British and French >>>> colonialism and the brutality of the Chinese regime are simply the facts, >>>> the kinds of facts that drive the passion and compassion of the people on >>>> the street in the U.S. Let cool heads prevail? That is the Cartesian take. >>>> The Spinoza turn in Vygotsky circles would conclude that without affect >>>> (passion and compassion) reason is impossible. Perhaps Anthony?s quest is >>>> Quixotic, laid out on the windmill. He?s certainly been a caballero about >>>> his trouncing. I admire him for that. >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> On Jun 5, 2020, at 3:10 PM, David Kellogg wrote: >>>> >>>> (Is this thread American-centric? If so, 'twere a grievous fault. But >>>> grievously hath Haydi answered it--I don't think anybody can consider his >>>> dense, encyclopaedic blocks of text--the polar opposite of Anthony's >>>> American-centric orthography as well as Anthony's style and content--in any >>>> way American-centric....) >>>> >>>> Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we >>>> read events rather than in the events themselves, Anthony. To me, the >>>> situation in and around Washington DC looks very much like the situation in >>>> and around Beijing in May1989. As in DC, Beijing had laws preventing the >>>> entry of the armed forces other than those of the Beijing Military >>>> Region into the city (the exclusion laws were actually written into the >>>> Chinese constitution by Mao, who was always afraid of powerful military >>>> opponents like Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao). The Beijing Military Region, >>>> however, was loyal to the people of Beijing and to the General Secretary >>>> Zhao Ziyang, and they opposed to a coup. So, as in DC, the "martial law" >>>> forces were called to the city perimeter where they halted for several >>>> weeks. As in DC, the provenance of the "martial law" forces were quite >>>> mysterious--they didn't carry insignia and it later turned out that these >>>> were forces personally loyal to two PLA warlords, the brothers Yang Baibing >>>> and Yang Shangkun. As in DC, there were different waves of demonstrators >>>> inside the city: someone put up artworks in the square (as the mayor did in >>>> DC this morning) and others told people to go home and organize and not >>>> stay to be massacred. And then, almost exactly thirty-one years ago, the >>>> unmarked shock troops went in shooting, and at least a thousand people >>>> died. I hope that part is NOT like DC, but so far the "American >>>> exceptionalists" have been proved wrong on every single detail. >>>> >>>> Clorox on cloth? Gadzooks, Peg. Don't Americans have real N-94s yet? At >>>> the very height of the Daegu outbreak people had to resort to cloth masks >>>> (I don't think anybody used Clorox, though). Then the government brought in >>>> a rationing system so that health care workers could get PPE, and the >>>> extras are still rationed according to the numbers on registration cards: >>>> we go to the pharmacy twice a week to pick up our ration of three masks. No >>>> one is allowed onto a bus, a subway, or into a public building without one. >>>> Yesterday I went hiking for two hours and whenever I saw someone coming >>>> towards me they hastily put on a mask and bowed. >>>> >>>> (Do you know, the largest factory for PPE in the USA, and possibly the >>>> world until recently, is 3M in Minneapolis? There's a solid >>>> transitional demand for a general strike--Masks for all! Occupy 3M!) >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XnRkPmdpJnCb1JELnFc_spIWLzcFkJdFM8Jmj_i7Pv8fMCgdT-stfI_c1NpugrxXEzajgA$ >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XnRkPmdpJnCb1JELnFc_spIWLzcFkJdFM8Jmj_i7Pv8fMCgdT-stfI_c1NpugrzVlt20hw$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:30 PM Anthony Barra >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I >>>>> know of both. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that >>>>>> objects/motive in activity are ideally always open to >>>>>> change/transformation?that they are never fixed given that as participants >>>>>> encounter new contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new >>>>>> objects/motives. This requires learners to be open to exploring optional >>>>>> actions/tools/norms as they redefine/revise their ever expanding >>>>>> objects/motives. >>>>>> >>>>>> Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires >>>>>> ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives >>>>>> given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t >>>>>> necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be >>>>>> blocked by a timid political leadership >>>>>> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>>> For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: >>>>>> Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: >>>>>> Foundations, findings and future challenges. *Educational Research >>>>>> Review, 5*, 1?24. >>>>>> Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative >>>>>> interventions for expansivelearning and transformative agency. *Journal >>>>>> of the Learning Sciences, 25*(4), 599-633. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200606/93913f2c/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 360781 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200606/93913f2c/attachment.png From Peg.Griffin@att.net Sat Jun 6 07:32:58 2020 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin, Ph.D.) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 10:32:58 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> Message-ID: <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> Sorry, but I seem to have misled you about masks here, David. Wouldn?t want people to think it?s a good idea to pour bleach on cloth and wear it! (Apparently some people, in this country at least, are using bleach on their skin or on their food; wouldn?t like to suggest such dangerous practices.) Our homemade masks are mostly three layers of cotton, some with pouches for filters if someone has or wants one. They are intended to be worn by those of us who may unknowingly be asymptomatic and undiagnosed but still infected with SARS-CoV-2 and able to spread it easily to those we are chanting and walking and kneeling and standing with. We have a continuing very poor diagnostic testing program in most places in this country. The masks are to lessen the danger an individual MIGHT BE to public health rather than a personal health measure way to protect an individual from getting the virus. Every night, we soak and wash whatever masks we have custody of that have been used ? soak in detergent and bleach and rinse well, but some odor of bleach remains, and leave it for a few days before recycling it. Those who wear masks like the N-94 are people who need to be protected by the mask the wearer from getting the virus as they go into spaces recognized as having infected people likely to spread the infection. Of course, as for many things, we do not have a well-functioning public health system so the N-94 type masks are expensive and in short supply in many places. On the other hand, though, sometimes rising to the concrete of homemade masks (needed, yes, but liked because they are so damned whimsical) and the making of them seem to yield confidence, camaraderie, apprenticeships for public engagement and purpose. It?s a bonus that what the virus pandemic has demanded now often plays a part in people learning and using anti-fascist tools against police violence and government misdirection. BTW, what particularly struck me about the DC mayor?s apparent acceptance of BLM in the street art and new street name, is the immediate challenge from DC BLM and, as immediately, the mayor acknowledging that the symbols do not mask the gap in actions that BLM demands! Could this be a dialectic or what? There are about a dozen well sponsored and organized protests in DC today ? reduces worries by some of us about severe dangers to the big number of us that could be used for target practice in one place. BTW: I appreciate getting news updates I learn from (recently off the top of my head) from Carol MacDonald, David Preiss, David Kellog ?). It is different than published material and fills a different function for me. Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 5:11 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis (Is this thread American-centric? If so, 'twere a grievous fault. But grievously hath Haydi answered it--I don't think anybody can consider his dense, encyclopaedic blocks of text--the polar opposite of Anthony's American-centric orthography as well as Anthony's style and content--in any way American-centric....) Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we read events rather than in the events themselves, Anthony. To me, the situation in and around Washington DC looks very much like the situation in and around Beijing in May1989. As in DC, Beijing had laws preventing the entry of the armed forces other than those of the Beijing Military Region into the city (the exclusion laws were actually written into the Chinese constitution by Mao, who was always afraid of powerful military opponents like Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao). The Beijing Military Region, however, was loyal to the people of Beijing and to the General Secretary Zhao Ziyang, and they opposed to a coup. So, as in DC, the "martial law" forces were called to the city perimeter where they halted for several weeks. As in DC, the provenance of the "martial law" forces were quite mysterious--they didn't carry insignia and it later turned out that these were forces personally loyal to two PLA warlords, the brothers Yang Baibing and Yang Shangkun. As in DC, there were different waves of demonstrators inside the city: someone put up artworks in the square (as the mayor did in DC this morning) and others told people to go home and organize and not stay to be massacred. And then, almost exactly thirty-one years ago, the unmarked shock troops went in shooting, and at least a thousand people died. I hope that part is NOT like DC, but so far the "American exceptionalists" have been proved wrong on every single detail. Clorox on cloth? Gadzooks, Peg. Don't Americans have real N-94s yet? At the very height of the Daegu outbreak people had to resort to cloth masks (I don't think anybody used Clorox, though). Then the government brought in a rationing system so that health care workers could get PPE, and the extras are still rationed according to the numbers on registration cards: we go to the pharmacy twice a week to pick up our ration of three masks. No one is allowed onto a bus, a subway, or into a public building without one. Yesterday I went hiking for two hours and whenever I saw someone coming towards me they hastily put on a mask and bowed. (Do you know, the largest factory for PPE in the USA, and possibly the world until recently, is 3M in Minneapolis? There's a solid transitional demand for a general strike--Masks for all! Occupy 3M!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VguVkyAlP1VAS26bsEx2fDGIXPWJFvq_ut-GGonoAE-HMrToUuykYrhhs8lyrElohUg2KQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VguVkyAlP1VAS26bsEx2fDGIXPWJFvq_ut-GGonoAE-HMrToUuykYrhhs8lyrElhprBpYQ$ On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:30 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know of both. On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach > wrote: Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are never fixed given that as participants encounter new contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be blocked by a timid political leadership . For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: Foundations, findings and future challenges. Educational Research Review, 5, 1?24. Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions for expansivelearning and transformative agency. Journal of the Learning Sciences, 25(4), 599-633. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200606/37959db7/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Sat Jun 6 09:30:58 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 11:30:58 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <09D1CFD1-2A48-4F96-B61F-9FAABFDCD397@gmail.com> Message-ID: <127358F5-8786-4371-A5DC-F76823169BE6@cantab.net> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/23/podcasts/1619-podcast.html > On Jun 6, 2020, at 6:06 AM, Haydi Zulfei wrote: > > Anna Stetsenko used to be here known to CHAT people. Every now and then she offers good pieces , says this couple of days before that she's going to Occasio-Cortez's Dem Speech invites others to join . One could say Anna is Rep. for one thing and Trump Rep. for another : "leave this country ; back home where you were born" ; Irony of the civil rights ! Rep of the State citizens should be endorsed not by the public law but by the Law in Person ?! The title : > If you?re surprised by how the police are acting, you don?t understand US history > Malaika Jabali > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:15 PM Haydi Zulfei > wrote: > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:10 PM Haydi Zulfei > wrote: > > Returning to normal? by michael roberts > The recent release of the US jobs data for May, which apparently showed a reduction in the unemployment rate from April, sparked a sharp rally in the US stock market. And if you were to follow the stock markets of the major economies, you would think that the world economy was racing back to normal as the lockdowns imposed by most governments to combat the spread of COVID-19 pandemic are relaxed and even ended. > > The stock markets of the world, after dropping precipitately when the lockdowns began, have rocketed back towards previous record levels over the last two months. This rally has been driven, first, by the humungous injections of money and credit into the financial system by the major central banks. This has enabled banks and companies to borrow at zero or negative rates with credit guaranteed by the state, so no danger of loss from default. At the same time, governments in the US, UK and Europe have made direct bailout funds to major companies stricken by the lockdowns, like airlines, auto and aircraft makers, leisure companies etc. > > It?s a feature of the 21st century that central banks have become the principal support mechanism for the financial system, propping up the leverage that had grown during the ?great moderation? a phenomenon that I detailed in my book, The Long Depression . This has combated the low profitability in the productive value-creating sectors of the world capitalist economy. Companies have increasingly switched funds into financial assets where investors can borrow at very low rates of interest to buy and sell stocks and bonds and make capital gains. The largest companies have been buying back their own shares to boost prices. In effect, what Marx called 'fictitious capital' has risen in ?value? while real value has stagnated or fallen. > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 2:29 PM Haydi Zulfei > wrote: > JUNE 4, 2020 > Our History is Our Future by JOHN DAVIS Facebook Twitter Reddit Email > > Christopher Columbus on Santa Mar?a in 1492, oil ? Public Domain > We can be sure that the public grandiloquence of Barack Obama grated mightily on at least half of the country during his eight years in the Oval Office. Now, we Libtards find every Trump tweet excruciatingly inane ? or horrifyingly inflammatory. As ever, it is the style, not the content, of American political leadership that is in question. For Its neoliberal ideology has been unwavering for four decades and is but the contemporary version of an implicitly racist dedication to the well-being of the wealthy that was fundamental to the founding of the Republic. Committed to the economization of all facets of public and private life, we citizens are remade as human capital: mini entrepreneurs whose only civic duty is towards pumping up the GDP. This is what our government demands of us, and we would be foolish to expect more from it than further destruction of the public realm and further trivialization of the democratic process. Having relinquished our individual roles as a necessary part of the Republic?s sovereignty, our vote is rendered superfluous at a time of a viral pandemic, unprecedented unemployment and expectations of further economic dislocation likely to eclipse the melt-down of 2008. > > On a weekend when the nation?s streets exploded in violent protest against racialized police brutality, the President and the Vice President chose to attend a manned rocket launch contracted by SpaceX, a private corporation. Politics have been dethroned, the public realm abandoned and the public good forsaken. Trump is ascendant, his sun-bronzed, narcissistic gaze reflected in the ruddy glow of burning streets. His military, on high alert, awaits its orders. > > Our smoldering streets may no longer be safe for Trump?s ?warriors? attempting, around the country, to fully re-open the American economy. Many will doubtless now enlist as his Law and Order ?vigilantes?. Neoliberalism demands the appearance of vibrant, life-sustaining markets. Trump has seen the financial > indices decline as the epidemic curve has arced skyward, but his focus has always been on economic rather than public health. He, and his ?warriors?, are quite prepared to sacrifice ?flattening the curve? for the sake of a rising Dow but his calculus must now include appeasing his newly enrolled ?vigilantes? while not entirely disaffecting African Americans. > > Neoliberalism, as the SARS-CoV-2 viral pandemic and the uprising demonstrate, is this country?s comorbidity ? a precondition making it extremely susceptible to both viral disease and to the recapitulation of long-ago racial injustice. In, The Road to Serfdom , 1944, Friedrich Hayek, the Anglo-Austrian economist, explicitly equates the freedom of the individual with the unfettered workings of the market. By way of contrast, he identifies the centralized economic planning evidenced in National Socialism, Communism and Social Democracies as inevitably trending towards totalitarianism. He suggests that governments restrict all attempts to establish social objectives and by extension, any encouragement of the citizen?s role in shaping these objectives. In other words, he recommends abandoning both the social and the political realm in favor of the invisible hand of the market, a goal that continues to inform neoliberalism as it is practiced across Europe and the Americas, and is the ruling ideology that has shaped the United States since the election of Ronald Reagan in 1980. Hayek?s ideas, developed out of his deeply felt reaction to German and Soviet totalitarianism, have had disastrous consequences in the United States where the gross injustices of its past continue to haunt its present, and where its best moments have been enshrined in exactly the kind of social objectives, such as FDR?s New Deal and LBJ?s Great Society, that Hayek spurns. > > In the 1830?s, the two signature, home-grown horrors that have shaped American history, the genocidal eradication of indigenous peoples and slavery, coalesced in President Andrew Jackson?s ?Indian Removals? which aimed to deport a number of surviving Indian tribes to west of the Mississippi to make way for the establishment of further industrial cotton plantations. This expansion of slavery was partly funded by securitized bonds, sold in New York, London, Paris, and other finance capitals, in a process that involved the financialization of human flesh. The violence necessary to convert slaves into a fungible commodity had existed for over two centuries, practiced in their initial capture in Africa, in their transportation, and in their work. The stain of slavery was then embedded in the capital generated by the cotton crop which went on to be invested in the Industrial Revolution and formed the basis for this country?s extravagant wealth. It is a wealth that has not been shared by most of its citizens. > > The highly visible murders of Ahmaud Arbery and George Floyd, performed on the street and reprised endlessly as viral videos on social media, go to the heart of this country?s racialized hierarchies established in 1492 and then compounded in 1619, with the arrival of the first shipment of African slaves introduced to this country as stolen human capital. Neoliberalism has made human capital of us all, but has vastly accentuated the wealth divide because, as Piketty has shown, it is from investment and inherited wealth that the rich are made ? not from an honest day?s work. The majority of the U.S. population, and certainly most African Americans, rely not on wealth from inheritance or investments, but on the mythology of the equitable rule of law and equal economic opportunity. As the looting component of the uprising suggests, egregious racialized murder exposes an awareness of this country?s endemic economic injustice. > > Nick Estes writes in, Our History is the Future , 2019, ?Indigenous elimination, in all its orientations, is the organizing principle of settler society.? In documenting the Lakota tribes? struggles to prevent the Dakota Access Pipeline passing under, and across sacred indigenous lands, Estes lauds the ongoing struggles of native peoples to resist a colonizing civilization that possesses an overbearing commercial ethic which leaves little room for the recognition of other, non-material values. Across the continent, indigenous peoples regarded the native soil, along with its flora and fauna, as co-creators of their lives, and the concept of its individual ownership was unthinkable. Genocide after genocide has still not entirely eliminated their awareness of belonging to the land ? ever in conflict with those who so clearly prize the value of individual ownership, property rights and, of course, the strange notion that the land belongs to them. > > It is in this country?s varied civilizational currents that the supreme value of the almighty dollar emerged. As a nation, we have bought and sold people, bought and sold the land?s natural beneficences, and now we have sold our sovereign right to vote to corporations that exist only to give succor to their owners and shareholders. The neoliberalism that was created out of a fear of totalitarianism has now made societies beholden to a totalized economy in which all is subsumed. Its values are those of the market, entirely blind to the human concerns of a richly diverse population many of whom it makes vulnerable to an ever increasing precarity in their livelihood, housing and health care. The current pandemic, natural disasters, debt crises, and recessions expose the venal character of this prevailing ideology, while emergency relief and bailouts are leveraged by the wealthy to expand capital in readiness for the next ?recovery? ? widening the corrosive gulf between the rich and everybody else. > > As a Native American academic, Estes celebrates his peoples? ongoing resistance to the dominant culture, established shortly after 1492. By declaring that ?Our History is Our Future?, he is committing to a continuance of this struggle. White members of the dominant culture can find no such guidance in their past. We see our history reenacted in violence and racial injustice entirely too often to wish it to be our future. We suppress our past and fear our future for good reason. > > Neoliberalism has obliterated the conditions for democracy by concentrating wealth, eschewing the public good and causing civility to be drowned out by over-amplified, profit-seeking media. The democracy that now struggles to exist in this country, does so only as a fully financialized product fertilized by corporate money featuring a roster of politicians pitifully beholden to the special interests that support their reelection campaigns. Estes is right to reaffirm his peoples? history. Our salvation might be in confronting ours. > > Join the debate on Facebook > More articles by:JOHN DAVIS > John Davis is an architect living in southern California. Read more of his writing at urbanwildland.org > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:58 AM HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > > IMHO > David says, "Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we read events rather than in the events themselves.? I am thinking about what Andy Blunden said, something to the effect that every experience is both mediated and un-mediated. Anthony seems to be looking for something more objective, something that transcends ideology. David K. might object that the facts of murderous and explotative British and French colonialism and the brutality of the Chinese regime are simply the facts, the kinds of facts that drive the passion and compassion of the people on the street in the U.S. Let cool heads prevail? That is the Cartesian take. The Spinoza turn in Vygotsky circles would conclude that without affect (passion and compassion) reason is impossible. Perhaps Anthony?s quest is Quixotic, laid out on the windmill. He?s certainly been a caballero about his trouncing. I admire him for that. > Henry > >> On Jun 5, 2020, at 3:10 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: >> >> (Is this thread American-centric? If so, 'twere a grievous fault. But grievously hath Haydi answered it--I don't think anybody can consider his dense, encyclopaedic blocks of text--the polar opposite of Anthony's American-centric orthography as well as Anthony's style and content--in any way American-centric....) >> >> Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we read events rather than in the events themselves, Anthony. To me, the situation in and around Washington DC looks very much like the situation in and around Beijing in May1989. As in DC, Beijing had laws preventing the entry of the armed forces other than those of the Beijing Military Region into the city (the exclusion laws were actually written into the Chinese constitution by Mao, who was always afraid of powerful military opponents like Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao). The Beijing Military Region, however, was loyal to the people of Beijing and to the General Secretary Zhao Ziyang, and they opposed to a coup. So, as in DC, the "martial law" forces were called to the city perimeter where they halted for several weeks. As in DC, the provenance of the "martial law" forces were quite mysterious--they didn't carry insignia and it later turned out that these were forces personally loyal to two PLA warlords, the brothers Yang Baibing and Yang Shangkun. As in DC, there were different waves of demonstrators inside the city: someone put up artworks in the square (as the mayor did in DC this morning) and others told people to go home and organize and not stay to be massacred. And then, almost exactly thirty-one years ago, the unmarked shock troops went in shooting, and at least a thousand people died. I hope that part is NOT like DC, but so far the "American exceptionalists" have been proved wrong on every single detail. >> >> Clorox on cloth? Gadzooks, Peg. Don't Americans have real N-94s yet? At the very height of the Daegu outbreak people had to resort to cloth masks (I don't think anybody used Clorox, though). Then the government brought in a rationing system so that health care workers could get PPE, and the extras are still rationed according to the numbers on registration cards: we go to the pharmacy twice a week to pick up our ration of three masks. No one is allowed onto a bus, a subway, or into a public building without one. Yesterday I went hiking for two hours and whenever I saw someone coming towards me they hastily put on a mask and bowed. >> >> (Do you know, the largest factory for PPE in the USA, and possibly the world until recently, is 3M in Minneapolis? There's a solid transitional demand for a general strike--Masks for all! Occupy 3M!) >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238 >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >> https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:30 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: >> Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know of both. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach > wrote: >> Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are never fixed given that as participants encounter new contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. >> >> Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be blocked by a timid political leadership . >> >> For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: >> Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: Foundations, findings and future challenges. Educational Research Review, 5, 1?24. >> Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions for expansivelearning and transformative agency. Journal of the Learning Sciences, 25(4), 599-633. >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200606/0f6cf8f1/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Jun 6 14:18:24 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 06:18:24 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> Message-ID: Thanks, Peg. N.B., though, the WHO now defunded by the USA but fortunately refunded by the PRC, has just said that masks ARE for healthy people. You remember that at the beginning of the pandemic, there was a "Western" view of transmission (doctors in the US and Europe) and an Eastern view (here in Korea and China). The "Western" view was all about droplets, which adhered to surfaces and then were transmitted to eyes, nose, and mouth by unwashed hands and face touching. The "Eastern" view was all about aerosols, which hang in the air and doesn't adhere to a surface at all. As Michael Osterholm--another Minnesotan!--explained, an aerosol is what you see in a sunbeam and also what you smell when you stand two aisles away from the perfume department. Now the science is in--it's an aerosol, and a good N-94 (we call them K-95s) will protect you, not just from the people you are talking to but from folks who are two aisles away. It will even protect your lungs and nose from the tear gas if it's tight enough, though you will still need eye protection. I use one with an elastic band that bypasses my ears and a clip that holds the elastic behind my head. Trump says: "Take it!" (hydroxychloroquine, which has zero prophylactic vaue but will exascerbate your heart condition). Ocasio-Cortez says, "Wear it!" (Hey, I wonder who's right...?) Anthony's right to warn against American-centrism: it is examples like Korea that show the world that the pandemic doesn't have to go the American way. We had NO lockdown, and our schools are up and running again (sort of--one of our Vygotsky group just had her school closed because a NEIGHBORING school had a kid test positive and the teachers are worried that kids from the two schools play and study together after hours). We just test and trace--and trust, too, because you really have to trust your neighbors and your government to do the kind of tracking we do over here. It's also worth remembering what Korea had to do to get here--for a whole year in 2017-2018, there were weekly street demos to remove the previous malignancy (a hard-right government that had seized power through a massive disinformation campaign in a very tightly contested election). That president didn't golf or tweet, but she did watch the sinking of a ferry with more than three hundred high school kids below decks on the TV while having her hair done.... Henry--I don't think I ever used the phrase "the brutality of the Chinese regime". Actually, the Chinese regime was and is neither more nor less brutal than any other. The whole point I was trying to make, actually, was the the legitimate Chinese regime under Zhao Ziyang and Hu Qili had to be removed by a military coup in order crush the demonstrations, and even the legitimate military authorities had to be bypassed in order to open fire on ordinary people. Unless we understand that, we get a kind of Chinese exceptionalism when we compare Beijing 1989 with what happened later that year in Romania, and the following year in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union generally.The troops didn't open fire there, but in Beijing they did. Why? Well, I suppose that it was because the PLA has been and to some extent still is an army based on sympathetic warlords and local bandits. That seems a trivial reason, but combined with the mistaken attempts by student leaders to eliminate the particpation of the working class in the national movement, it was decisive. I don't mean to sucker-punch this thread, but for those like Henry who are considering the social democratic alternative, I would like to draw attention to the link below, a critique of a recent book using social democracy as a model for understanding, among other things, progressive education and Vygotskyan theory. It's also worth considering the abject failure of precisely those governments run by the social democrats to cope with Covid-19: Spain and Sweden. Even in Italy, the UK, and Brazil you have far-right governments which are resting on a health system built up by social democracy and you see very similar failures. Social democracy rests on the economic "successes" of capitalism (specifically: imperalism, where capital is exported for profits that can be used to buy off the working class). Social democracy then tries to tinker with the crises, trying to attentuate it with Adam Smith's triumvirate of wages, rents, and interests. There are, of course, limits to any analogy, but if you think of a health crisis as a developmental crisis writ large, you can see why the Chinese model was so much better. Imagine a child who is undergoing a crisis at three or at thirteen. You don't treat the crisis at three by injecting the child with ritalin (although, you know, there WAS a US drug company that wanted to market anti-depressants to children using Eeyore and drugs for ADHD using Tigger!). You shouldn't try to treat the crisis at thirteen by fiddling with the child's new hormone balance. Mutatis mutandis, that would be like taking hydroxychloroquine instead of wearing a mask. (More discussion and even more farfetched analogies in the article linked below!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University Book Review: 'Fees, Beets, and Music: A critical perusal of *Critical Pedagogy and Marx, Vygotsky and Freire: Phenomenal forms and educational action research * in *Mind Culture and Activity* *https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1745847__;!!Mih3wA!Vw3X4zA8KPUUBNGynYlMCNQcwZnTt6OiOBJZ8qXREer7VAs4eCUOBOokaQpiRInS53PItg$ * Some free e-prints available at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/QBBGIZNKAHPMM4ZVCWVX/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1745847__;Lw!!Mih3wA!Vw3X4zA8KPUUBNGynYlMCNQcwZnTt6OiOBJZ8qXREer7VAs4eCUOBOokaQpiRInD1yINdQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Vw3X4zA8KPUUBNGynYlMCNQcwZnTt6OiOBJZ8qXREer7VAs4eCUOBOokaQpiRIkcgpwAhg$ On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 11:35 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. wrote: > Sorry, but I seem to have misled you about masks here, David. Wouldn?t > want people to think it?s a good idea to pour bleach on cloth and wear it! > (Apparently some people, in this country at least, are using bleach on > their skin or on their food; wouldn?t like to suggest such dangerous > practices.) > > Our homemade masks are mostly three layers of cotton, some with pouches > for filters if someone has or wants one. They are intended to be worn by > those of us who may unknowingly be asymptomatic and undiagnosed but still > infected with SARS-CoV-2 and able to spread it easily to those we are > chanting and walking and kneeling and standing with. We have a continuing > very poor diagnostic testing program in most places in this country. The > masks are to lessen the danger an individual MIGHT BE to public health > rather than a personal health measure way to protect an individual from > getting the virus. Every night, we soak and wash whatever masks we have > custody of that have been used ? soak in detergent and bleach and rinse > well, but some odor of bleach remains, and leave it for a few days before > recycling it. Those who wear masks like the N-94 are people who need to be > protected by the mask the wearer from getting the virus as they go into > spaces recognized as having infected people likely to spread the infection. > > Of course, as for many things, we do not have a well-functioning public > health system so the N-94 type masks are expensive and in short supply in > many places. > > On the other hand, though, sometimes rising to the concrete of homemade > masks (needed, yes, but liked because they are so damned whimsical) and the > making of them seem to yield confidence, camaraderie, apprenticeships for > public engagement and purpose. It?s a bonus that what the virus pandemic > has demanded now often plays a part in people learning and using > anti-fascist tools against police violence and government misdirection. > > > > BTW, what particularly struck me about the DC mayor?s apparent acceptance > of BLM in the street art and new street name, is the immediate challenge > from DC BLM and, as immediately, the mayor acknowledging that the symbols > do not mask the gap in actions that BLM demands! Could this be a > dialectic or what? > > There are about a dozen well sponsored and organized protests in DC today > ? reduces worries by some of us about severe dangers to the big number of > us that could be used for target practice in one place. > > > > BTW: I appreciate getting news updates I learn from (recently off the top > of my head) from Carol MacDonald, David Preiss, David Kellog ?). It is > different than published material and fills a different function for me. > > Peg > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *David Kellogg > *Sent:* Friday, June 5, 2020 5:11 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > (Is this thread American-centric? If so, 'twere a grievous fault. But > grievously hath Haydi answered it--I don't think anybody can consider his > dense, encyclopaedic blocks of text--the polar opposite of Anthony's > American-centric orthography as well as Anthony's style and content--in any > way American-centric....) > > > > Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we > read events rather than in the events themselves, Anthony. To me, the > situation in and around Washington DC looks very much like the situation in > and around Beijing in May1989. As in DC, Beijing had laws preventing the > entry of the armed forces other than those of the Beijing Military > Region into the city (the exclusion laws were actually written into the > Chinese constitution by Mao, who was always afraid of powerful military > opponents like Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao). The Beijing Military Region, > however, was loyal to the people of Beijing and to the General Secretary > Zhao Ziyang, and they opposed to a coup. So, as in DC, the "martial law" > forces were called to the city perimeter where they halted for several > weeks. As in DC, the provenance of the "martial law" forces were quite > mysterious--they didn't carry insignia and it later turned out that these > were forces personally loyal to two PLA warlords, the brothers Yang Baibing > and Yang Shangkun. As in DC, there were different waves of demonstrators > inside the city: someone put up artworks in the square (as the mayor did in > DC this morning) and others told people to go home and organize and not > stay to be massacred. And then, almost exactly thirty-one years ago, the > unmarked shock troops went in shooting, and at least a thousand people > died. I hope that part is NOT like DC, but so far the "American > exceptionalists" have been proved wrong on every single detail. > > > > Clorox on cloth? Gadzooks, Peg. Don't Americans have real N-94s yet? At > the very height of the Daegu outbreak people had to resort to cloth masks > (I don't think anybody used Clorox, though). Then the government brought in > a rationing system so that health care workers could get PPE, and the > extras are still rationed according to the numbers on registration cards: > we go to the pharmacy twice a week to pick up our ration of three masks. No > one is allowed onto a bus, a subway, or into a public building without one. > Yesterday I went hiking for two hours and whenever I saw someone coming > towards me they hastily put on a mask and bowed. > > > > (Do you know, the largest factory for PPE in the USA, and possibly the > world until recently, is 3M in Minneapolis? There's a solid > transitional demand for a general strike--Masks for all! Occupy 3M!) > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Vw3X4zA8KPUUBNGynYlMCNQcwZnTt6OiOBJZ8qXREer7VAs4eCUOBOokaQpiRIkip-rZ_A$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Vw3X4zA8KPUUBNGynYlMCNQcwZnTt6OiOBJZ8qXREer7VAs4eCUOBOokaQpiRIkcgpwAhg$ > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:30 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know > of both. > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach wrote: > > Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive in > activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are > never fixed given that as participants encounter new > contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. > This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms > as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. > > > > Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires > ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives > given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t > necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be > blocked by a timid political leadership > > . > > > > For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: > > Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: > Foundations, findings and future challenges. *Educational Research > Review, 5*, 1?24. > > Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions > for expansivelearning and transformative agency. *Journal of the Learning > Sciences, 25*(4), 599-633. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200607/469e59c3/attachment.html From Peg.Griffin@att.net Sat Jun 6 15:11:49 2020 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin, Ph.D.) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 18:11:49 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> Message-ID: <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> Right, David, we have always known our homemade masks are NOT good in that direction. I am glad you all have government provided via pharmacy and ration ones that are good in both directions. Our home made ones are not good the wearer?s personal health, just useful for public health. So far, we have nothing for personal health except for after-the-fact of infection and that only if we are lucky to get the manifestations that we can medicate at home or that we can get to a hospital with the resources we need for whatever Covid puts on our plate. AOC is an amazing woman. She has control of the facts on the ground and the differences among masks too. She knows the ones medical people need are two-way and better but she also recognizes the need for making and wearing and increasing the quality and quantity of our home-made ones. I put it down to her bartender training but others put it down to a super government policy education and dedication. I just got off the streets of Saturday protests in DC. Media still having trouble figuring out how come there are so many different marches that at the same time are all one. Lots of people have given themselves sun up to sun down time frames and a side job of visiting as many different marches as they can. Some incredibly snooty DC restaurants started to ?bring out:? They make their fancy food and bring it out ? more or less forcing it for free on whoever is passing by! I think some protesters modified their plans to pass by that restaurant. A bunch of us just wore out a little after 5, but, there seemed to be a new and better shift coming on. Worst violence during the day so far was to our hearts when we couldn?t hug and kiss toddlers and pre-schoolers we knew and they just didn?t like it at all that we could be so rotten to their sweet selves. Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 5:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis Thanks, Peg. N.B., though, the WHO now defunded by the USA but fortunately refunded by the PRC, has just said that masks ARE for healthy people. You remember that at the beginning of the pandemic, there was a "Western" view of transmission (doctors in the US and Europe) and an Eastern view (here in Korea and China) The "Western" view was all about droplets, which adhered to surfaces and then were transmitted to eyes, nose, and mouth by unwashed hands and face touching. The "Eastern" view was all about aerosols, which hang in the air and doesn't adhere to a surface at all. As Michael Osterholm--another Minnesotan!--explained, an aerosol is what you see in a sunbeam and also what you smell when you stand two aisles away from the perfume department. Now the science is in--it's an aerosol, and a good N-94 (we call them K-95s) will protect you, not just from the people you are talking to but from folks who are two aisles away. It will even protect your lungs and nose from the tear gas if it's tight enough, though you will still need eye protection. I use one with an elastic band that bypasses my ears and a clip that holds the elastic behind my head. Trump says: "Take it!" (hydroxychloroquine, which has zero prophylactic vaue but will exascerbate your heart condition). Ocasio-Cortez says, "Wear it!" (Hey, I wonder who's right...?) Anthony's right to warn against American-centrism: it is examples like Korea that show the world that the pandemic doesn't have to go the American way. We had NO lockdown, and our schools are up and running again (sort of--one of our Vygotsky group just had her school closed because a NEIGHBORING school had a kid test positive and the teachers are worried that kids from the two schools play and study together after hours). We just test and trace--and trust, too, because you really have to trust your neighbors and your government to do the kind of tracking we do over here. It's also worth remembering what Korea had to do to get here--for a whole year in 2017-2018, there were weekly street demos to remove the previous malignancy (a hard-right government that had seized power through a massive disinformation campaign in a very tightly contested election). That president didn't golf or tweet, but she did watch the sinking of a ferry with more than three hundred high school kids below decks on the TV while having her hair done.... Henry--I don't think I ever used the phrase "the brutality of the Chinese regime". Actually, the Chinese regime was and is neither more nor less brutal than any other. The whole point I was trying to make, actually, was the the legitimate Chinese regime under Zhao Ziyang and Hu Qili had to be removed by a military coup in order crush the demonstrations, and even the legitimate military authorities had to be bypassed in order to open fire on ordinary people. Unless we understand that, we get a kind of Chinese exceptionalism when we compare Beijing 1989 with what happened later that year in Romania, and the following year in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union generally.The troops didn't open fire there, but in Beijing they did. Why? Well, I suppose that it was because the PLA has been and to some extent still is an army based on sympathetic warlords and local bandits. That seems a trivial reason, but combined with the mistaken attempts by student leaders to eliminate the particpation of the working class in the national movement, it was decisive. I don't mean to sucker-punch this thread, but for those like Henry who are considering the social democratic alternative, I would like to draw attention to the link below, a critique of a recent book using social democracy as a model for understanding, among other things, progressive education and Vygotskyan theory. It's also worth considering the abject failure of precisely those governments run by the social democrats to cope with Covid-19: Spain and Sweden. Even in Italy, the UK, and Brazil you have far-right governments which are resting on a health system built up by social democracy and you see very similar failures. Social democracy rests on the economic "successes" of capitalism (specifically: imperalism, where capital is exported for profits that can be used to buy off the working class). Social democracy then tries to tinker with the crises, trying to attentuate it with Adam Smith's triumvirate of wages, rents, and interests. There are, of course, limits to any analogy, but if you think of a health crisis as a developmental crisis writ large, you can see why the Chinese model was so much better. Imagine a child who is undergoing a crisis at three or at thirteen. You don't treat the crisis at three by injecting the child with ritalin (although, you know, there WAS a US drug company that wanted to market anti-depressants to children using Eeyore and drugs for ADHD using Tigger!). You shouldn't try to treat the crisis at thirteen by fiddling with the child's new hormone balance. Mutatis mutandis, that would be like taking hydroxychloroquine instead of wearing a mask. (More discussion and even more farfetched analogies in the article linked below!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University Book Review: 'Fees, Beets, and Music: A critical perusal of Critical Pedagogy and Marx, Vygotsky and Freire: Phenomenal forms and educational action research in Mind Culture and Activity https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1745847__;!!Mih3wA!UO7TPGvx9x-D1H56zYQJmSinZlTgyMi0mFD2tpenMhWF3FwRsngvv-0DPLjWqQZAXkxy2A$ Some free e-prints available at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/QBBGIZNKAHPMM4ZVCWVX/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1745847__;Lw!!Mih3wA!UO7TPGvx9x-D1H56zYQJmSinZlTgyMi0mFD2tpenMhWF3FwRsngvv-0DPLjWqQYQMnSrYA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UO7TPGvx9x-D1H56zYQJmSinZlTgyMi0mFD2tpenMhWF3FwRsngvv-0DPLjWqQblxzDD6w$ On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 11:35 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: Sorry, but I seem to have misled you about masks here, David. Wouldn?t want people to think it?s a good idea to pour bleach on cloth and wear it! (Apparently some people, in this country at least, are using bleach on their skin or on their food; wouldn?t like to suggest such dangerous practices.) Our homemade masks are mostly three layers of cotton, some with pouches for filters if someone has or wants one. They are intended to be worn by those of us who may unknowingly be asymptomatic and undiagnosed but still infected with SARS-CoV-2 and able to spread it easily to those we are chanting and walking and kneeling and standing with. We have a continuing very poor diagnostic testing program in most places in this country. The masks are to lessen the danger an individual MIGHT BE to public health rather than a personal health measure way to protect an individual from getting the virus. Every night, we soak and wash whatever masks we have custody of that have been used ? soak in detergent and bleach and rinse well, but some odor of bleach remains, and leave it for a few days before recycling it. Those who wear masks like the N-94 are people who need to be protected by the mask the wearer from getting the virus as they go into spaces recognized as having infected people likely to spread the infection. Of course, as for many things, we do not have a well-functioning public health system so the N-94 type masks are expensive and in short supply in many places. On the other hand, though, sometimes rising to the concrete of homemade masks (needed, yes, but liked because they are so damned whimsical) and the making of them seem to yield confidence, camaraderie, apprenticeships for public engagement and purpose. It?s a bonus that what the virus pandemic has demanded now often plays a part in people learning and using anti-fascist tools against police violence and government misdirection. BTW, what particularly struck me about the DC mayor?s apparent acceptance of BLM in the street art and new street name, is the immediate challenge from DC BLM and, as immediately, the mayor acknowledging that the symbols do not mask the gap in actions that BLM demands! Could this be a dialectic or what? There are about a dozen well sponsored and organized protests in DC today ? reduces worries by some of us about severe dangers to the big number of us that could be used for target practice in one place. BTW: I appreciate getting news updates I learn from (recently off the top of my head) from Carol MacDonald, David Preiss, David Kellog ?). It is different than published material and fills a different function for me. Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu ] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 5:11 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis (Is this thread American-centric? If so, 'twere a grievous fault. But grievously hath Haydi answered it--I don't think anybody can consider his dense, encyclopaedic blocks of text--the polar opposite of Anthony's American-centric orthography as well as Anthony's style and content--in any way American-centric....) Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we read events rather than in the events themselves, Anthony. To me, the situation in and around Washington DC looks very much like the situation in and around Beijing in May1989. As in DC, Beijing had laws preventing the entry of the armed forces other than those of the Beijing Military Region into the city (the exclusion laws were actually written into the Chinese constitution by Mao, who was always afraid of powerful military opponents like Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao). The Beijing Military Region, however, was loyal to the people of Beijing and to the General Secretary Zhao Ziyang, and they opposed to a coup. So, as in DC, the "martial law" forces were called to the city perimeter where they halted for several weeks. As in DC, the provenance of the "martial law" forces were quite mysterious--they didn't carry insignia and it later turned out that these were forces personally loyal to two PLA warlords, the brothers Yang Baibing and Yang Shangkun. As in DC, there were different waves of demonstrators inside the city: someone put up artworks in the square (as the mayor did in DC this morning) and others told people to go home and organize and not stay to be massacred. And then, almost exactly thirty-one years ago, the unmarked shock troops went in shooting, and at least a thousand people died. I hope that part is NOT like DC, but so far the "American exceptionalists" have been proved wrong on every single detail. Clorox on cloth? Gadzooks, Peg. Don't Americans have real N-94s yet? At the very height of the Daegu outbreak people had to resort to cloth masks (I don't think anybody used Clorox, though). Then the government brought in a rationing system so that health care workers could get PPE, and the extras are still rationed according to the numbers on registration cards: we go to the pharmacy twice a week to pick up our ration of three masks. No one is allowed onto a bus, a subway, or into a public building without one. Yesterday I went hiking for two hours and whenever I saw someone coming towards me they hastily put on a mask and bowed. (Do you know, the largest factory for PPE in the USA, and possibly the world until recently, is 3M in Minneapolis? There's a solid transitional demand for a general strike--Masks for all! Occupy 3M!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UO7TPGvx9x-D1H56zYQJmSinZlTgyMi0mFD2tpenMhWF3FwRsngvv-0DPLjWqQaRJAbheA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UO7TPGvx9x-D1H56zYQJmSinZlTgyMi0mFD2tpenMhWF3FwRsngvv-0DPLjWqQblxzDD6w$ On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:30 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know of both. On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach > wrote: Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are never fixed given that as participants encounter new contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be blocked by a timid political leadership . For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: Foundations, findings and future challenges. Educational Research Review, 5, 1?24. Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions for expansivelearning and transformative agency. Journal of the Learning Sciences, 25(4), 599-633. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200606/7786ef06/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Jun 6 15:35:37 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 15:35:37 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: Peg- N95 masks are available in various parts of the country. If you have an address we could round up some and send them xpress. Give us stuck at homes something to do. mike On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:14 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. wrote: > Right, David, we have always known our homemade masks are NOT good in that > direction. I am glad you all have government provided via pharmacy and > ration ones that are good in both directions. Our home made ones are not > good the wearer?s personal health, just useful for public health. > > So far, we have nothing for personal health except for after-the-fact of > infection and that only if we are lucky to get the manifestations that we > can medicate at home or that we can get to a hospital with the resources we > need for whatever Covid puts on our plate. > > AOC is an amazing woman. She has control of the facts on the ground and > the differences among masks too. She knows the ones medical people need are > two-way and better but she also recognizes the need for making and wearing > and increasing the quality and quantity of our home-made ones. I put it > down to her bartender training but others put it down to a super government > policy education and dedication. > > > > I just got off the streets of Saturday protests in DC. Media still having > trouble figuring out how come there are so many different marches that at > the same time are all one. Lots of people have given themselves sun up to > sun down time frames and a side job of visiting as many different marches > as they can. Some incredibly snooty DC restaurants started to ?bring out:? > They make their fancy food and bring it out ? more or less forcing it for > free on whoever is passing by! I think some protesters modified their plans > to pass by that restaurant. > > A bunch of us just wore out a little after 5, but, there seemed to be a > new and better shift coming on. Worst violence during the day so far was > to our hearts when we couldn?t hug and kiss toddlers and pre-schoolers we > knew and they just didn?t like it at all that we could be so rotten to > their sweet selves. > > Peg > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *David Kellogg > *Sent:* Saturday, June 6, 2020 5:18 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > Thanks, Peg. N.B., though, the WHO now defunded by the USA but fortunately > refunded by the PRC, has just said that masks ARE for healthy people. You > remember that at the beginning of the pandemic, there was a "Western" > view of transmission (doctors in the US and Europe) and an Eastern view > (here in Korea and China) The "Western" view was all about droplets, which > adhered to surfaces and then were transmitted to eyes, nose, and mouth by > unwashed hands and face touching. The "Eastern" view was all about > aerosols, which hang in the air and doesn't adhere to a surface at all. As > Michael Osterholm--another Minnesotan!--explained, an aerosol is what you > see in a sunbeam and also what you smell when you stand two aisles away > from the perfume department. Now the science is in--it's an aerosol, and a > good N-94 (we call them K-95s) will protect you, not just from the people > you are talking to but from folks who are two aisles away. It will even > protect your lungs and nose from the tear gas if it's tight enough, though > you will still need eye protection. I use one with an elastic band that > bypasses my ears and a clip that holds the elastic behind my head. Trump > says: "Take it!" (hydroxychloroquine, which has zero prophylactic vaue but > will exascerbate your heart condition). Ocasio-Cortez says, "Wear it!" > (Hey, I wonder who's right...?) > > > > Anthony's right to warn against American-centrism: it is examples like > Korea that show the world that the pandemic doesn't have to go the American > way. We had NO lockdown, and our schools are up and running again (sort > of--one of our Vygotsky group just had her school closed because a > NEIGHBORING school had a kid test positive and the teachers are worried > that kids from the two schools play and study together after hours). We > just test and trace--and trust, too, because you really have to trust your > neighbors and your government to do the kind of tracking we do over > here. It's also worth remembering what Korea had to do to get here--for a > whole year in 2017-2018, there were weekly street demos to remove the > previous malignancy (a hard-right government that had seized power through > a massive disinformation campaign in a very tightly contested election). > That president didn't golf or tweet, but she did watch the sinking of a > ferry with more than three hundred high school kids below decks on the TV > while having her hair done.... > > > > Henry--I don't think I ever used the phrase "the brutality of the Chinese > regime". Actually, the Chinese regime was and is neither more nor less > brutal than any other. The whole point I was trying to make, actually, was > the the legitimate Chinese regime under Zhao Ziyang and Hu Qili had to be > removed by a military coup in order crush the demonstrations, and even the > legitimate military authorities had to be bypassed in order to open fire on > ordinary people. Unless we understand that, we get a kind of Chinese > exceptionalism when we compare Beijing 1989 with what happened later that > year in Romania, and the following year in Eastern Europe and the Soviet > Union generally.The troops didn't open fire there, but in Beijing they did. > Why? Well, I suppose that it was because the PLA has been and to some > extent still is an army based on sympathetic warlords and local bandits. > That seems a trivial reason, but combined with the mistaken attempts by > student leaders to eliminate the particpation of the working class in the > national movement, it was decisive. > > > > I don't mean to sucker-punch this thread, but for those like Henry who are > considering the social democratic alternative, I would like to draw > attention to the link below, a critique of a recent book using social > democracy as a model for understanding, among other things, progressive > education and Vygotskyan theory. It's also worth considering the abject > failure of precisely those governments run by the social democrats to cope > with Covid-19: Spain and Sweden. Even in Italy, the UK, and Brazil you have > far-right governments which are resting on a health system built up by > social democracy and you see very similar failures. Social democracy rests > on the economic "successes" of capitalism (specifically: imperalism, where > capital is exported for profits that can be used to buy off the working > class). Social democracy then tries to tinker with the crises, trying to > attentuate it with Adam Smith's triumvirate of wages, rents, and interests. > > > > > There are, of course, limits to any analogy, but if you think of a health > crisis as a developmental crisis writ large, you can see why the Chinese > model was so much better. Imagine a child who is undergoing a crisis at > three or at thirteen. You don't treat the crisis at three by injecting the > child with ritalin (although, you know, there WAS a US drug company that > wanted to market anti-depressants to children using Eeyore and drugs for > ADHD using Tigger!). You shouldn't try to treat the crisis at thirteen by > fiddling with the child's new hormone balance. Mutatis mutandis, that would > be like taking hydroxychloroquine instead of wearing a mask. > > > > (More discussion and even more farfetched analogies in the article linked > below!) > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > Book Review: 'Fees, Beets, and Music: A critical perusal of *Critical > Pedagogy and Marx, Vygotsky and Freire: Phenomenal forms and educational > action research * > > in *Mind Culture and Activity* > > > > *https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1745847__;!!Mih3wA!SxOjUkmd40jJ5CvgxAFdTDychdI779Uz7hasLIC8bpNOTogIA0OZJRxnFTje58ACtPiEWQ$ > * > > > > Some free e-prints available at: > > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/QBBGIZNKAHPMM4ZVCWVX/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1745847__;Lw!!Mih3wA!SxOjUkmd40jJ5CvgxAFdTDychdI779Uz7hasLIC8bpNOTogIA0OZJRxnFTje58Dj-IzGZQ$ > > > > > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SxOjUkmd40jJ5CvgxAFdTDychdI779Uz7hasLIC8bpNOTogIA0OZJRxnFTje58CdigsXPQ$ > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 11:35 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: > > Sorry, but I seem to have misled you about masks here, David. Wouldn?t > want people to think it?s a good idea to pour bleach on cloth and wear it! > (Apparently some people, in this country at least, are using bleach on > their skin or on their food; wouldn?t like to suggest such dangerous > practices.) > > Our homemade masks are mostly three layers of cotton, some with pouches > for filters if someone has or wants one. They are intended to be worn by > those of us who may unknowingly be asymptomatic and undiagnosed but still > infected with SARS-CoV-2 and able to spread it easily to those we are > chanting and walking and kneeling and standing with. We have a continuing > very poor diagnostic testing program in most places in this country. The > masks are to lessen the danger an individual MIGHT BE to public health > rather than a personal health measure way to protect an individual from > getting the virus. Every night, we soak and wash whatever masks we have > custody of that have been used ? soak in detergent and bleach and rinse > well, but some odor of bleach remains, and leave it for a few days before > recycling it. Those who wear masks like the N-94 are people who need to be > protected by the mask the wearer from getting the virus as they go into > spaces recognized as having infected people likely to spread the infection. > > Of course, as for many things, we do not have a well-functioning public > health system so the N-94 type masks are expensive and in short supply in > many places. > > On the other hand, though, sometimes rising to the concrete of homemade > masks (needed, yes, but liked because they are so damned whimsical) and the > making of them seem to yield confidence, camaraderie, apprenticeships for > public engagement and purpose. It?s a bonus that what the virus pandemic > has demanded now often plays a part in people learning and using > anti-fascist tools against police violence and government misdirection. > > > > BTW, what particularly struck me about the DC mayor?s apparent acceptance > of BLM in the street art and new street name, is the immediate challenge > from DC BLM and, as immediately, the mayor acknowledging that the symbols > do not mask the gap in actions that BLM demands! Could this be a > dialectic or what? > > There are about a dozen well sponsored and organized protests in DC today > ? reduces worries by some of us about severe dangers to the big number of > us that could be used for target practice in one place. > > > > BTW: I appreciate getting news updates I learn from (recently off the top > of my head) from Carol MacDonald, David Preiss, David Kellog ?). It is > different than published material and fills a different function for me. > > Peg > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *David Kellogg > *Sent:* Friday, June 5, 2020 5:11 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > (Is this thread American-centric? If so, 'twere a grievous fault. But > grievously hath Haydi answered it--I don't think anybody can consider his > dense, encyclopaedic blocks of text--the polar opposite of Anthony's > American-centric orthography as well as Anthony's style and content--in any > way American-centric....) > > > > Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we > read events rather than in the events themselves, Anthony. To me, the > situation in and around Washington DC looks very much like the situation in > and around Beijing in May1989. As in DC, Beijing had laws preventing the > entry of the armed forces other than those of the Beijing Military > Region into the city (the exclusion laws were actually written into the > Chinese constitution by Mao, who was always afraid of powerful military > opponents like Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao). The Beijing Military Region, > however, was loyal to the people of Beijing and to the General Secretary > Zhao Ziyang, and they opposed to a coup. So, as in DC, the "martial law" > forces were called to the city perimeter where they halted for several > weeks. As in DC, the provenance of the "martial law" forces were quite > mysterious--they didn't carry insignia and it later turned out that these > were forces personally loyal to two PLA warlords, the brothers Yang Baibing > and Yang Shangkun. As in DC, there were different waves of demonstrators > inside the city: someone put up artworks in the square (as the mayor did in > DC this morning) and others told people to go home and organize and not > stay to be massacred. And then, almost exactly thirty-one years ago, the > unmarked shock troops went in shooting, and at least a thousand people > died. I hope that part is NOT like DC, but so far the "American > exceptionalists" have been proved wrong on every single detail. > > > > Clorox on cloth? Gadzooks, Peg. Don't Americans have real N-94s yet? At > the very height of the Daegu outbreak people had to resort to cloth masks > (I don't think anybody used Clorox, though). Then the government brought in > a rationing system so that health care workers could get PPE, and the > extras are still rationed according to the numbers on registration cards: > we go to the pharmacy twice a week to pick up our ration of three masks. No > one is allowed onto a bus, a subway, or into a public building without one. > Yesterday I went hiking for two hours and whenever I saw someone coming > towards me they hastily put on a mask and bowed. > > > > (Do you know, the largest factory for PPE in the USA, and possibly the > world until recently, is 3M in Minneapolis? There's a solid > transitional demand for a general strike--Masks for all! Occupy 3M!) > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SxOjUkmd40jJ5CvgxAFdTDychdI779Uz7hasLIC8bpNOTogIA0OZJRxnFTje58Dhsvob7A$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SxOjUkmd40jJ5CvgxAFdTDychdI779Uz7hasLIC8bpNOTogIA0OZJRxnFTje58CdigsXPQ$ > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:30 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know > of both. > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach wrote: > > Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive in > activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are > never fixed given that as participants encounter new > contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. > This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms > as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. > > > > Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires > ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives > given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t > necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be > blocked by a timid political leadership > > . > > > > For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: > > Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: > Foundations, findings and future challenges. *Educational Research > Review, 5*, 1?24. > > Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions > for expansivelearning and transformative agency. *Journal of the Learning > Sciences, 25*(4), 599-633. > > > > -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!SxOjUkmd40jJ5CvgxAFdTDychdI779Uz7hasLIC8bpNOTogIA0OZJRxnFTje58Cgj7KDhA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200606/12bbe22d/attachment.html From Peg.Griffin@att.net Sat Jun 6 17:33:52 2020 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin, Ph.D.) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 20:33:52 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <000001d63c63$535b0070$fa110150$@att.net> Wow! Yes! I?ll send my PO box by email. When the masks come, I?ll pass to BLM and to a Moms Demand Action leader in Anacostia ( a DC neighborhood hard hit by Covid and likely to be hit again after these protests and in any second wave). BTW, some services don?t deliver to PO boxes so maybe better to use a the USPS express service. Thuppank Yuppou vupperuppy mupuch, Pupeg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 6:36 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis Peg- N95 masks are available in various parts of the country. If you have an address we could round up some and send them xpress. Give us stuck at homes something to do. mike On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:14 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: Right, David, we have always known our homemade masks are NOT good in that direction. I am glad you all have government provided via pharmacy and ration ones that are good in both directions. Our home made ones are not good the wearer?s personal health, just useful for public health. So far, we have nothing for personal health except for after-the-fact of infection and that only if we are lucky to get the manifestations that we can medicate at home or that we can get to a hospital with the resources we need for whatever Covid puts on our plate. AOC is an amazing woman. She has control of the facts on the ground and the differences among masks too. She knows the ones medical people need are two-way and better but she also recognizes the need for making and wearing and increasing the quality and quantity of our home-made ones. I put it down to her bartender training but others put it down to a super government policy education and dedication. I just got off the streets of Saturday protests in DC. Media still having trouble figuring out how come there are so many different marches that at the same time are all one. Lots of people have given themselves sun up to sun down time frames and a side job of visiting as many different marches as they can. Some incredibly snooty DC restaurants started to ?bring out:? They make their fancy food and bring it out ? more or less forcing it for free on whoever is passing by! I think some protesters modified their plans to pass by that restaurant. A bunch of us just wore out a little after 5, but, there seemed to be a new and better shift coming on. Worst violence during the day so far was to our hearts when we couldn?t hug and kiss toddlers and pre-schoolers we knew and they just didn?t like it at all that we could be so rotten to their sweet selves. Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 5:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity < xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis Thanks, Peg. N.B., though, the WHO now defunded by the USA but fortunately refunded by the PRC, has just said that masks ARE for healthy people. You remember that at the beginning of the pandemic, there was a "Western" view of transmission (doctors in the US and Europe) and an Eastern view (here in Korea and China) The "Western" view was all about droplets, which adhered to surfaces and then were transmitted to eyes, nose, and mouth by unwashed hands and face touching. The "Eastern" view was all about aerosols, which hang in the air and doesn't adhere to a surface at all. As Michael Osterholm--another Minnesotan!--explained, an aerosol is what you see in a sunbeam and also what you smell when you stand two aisles away from the perfume department. Now the science is in--it's an aerosol, and a good N-94 (we call them K-95s) will protect you, not just from the people you are talking to but from folks who are two aisles away. It will even protect your lungs and nose from the tear gas if it's tight enough, though you will still need eye protection. I use one with an elastic band that bypasses my ears and a clip that holds the elastic behind my head. Trump says: "Take it!" (hydroxychloroquine, which has zero prophylactic vaue but will exascerbate your heart condition). Ocasio-Cortez says, "Wear it!" (Hey, I wonder who's right...?) Anthony's right to warn against American-centrism: it is examples like Korea that show the world that the pandemic doesn't have to go the American way. We had NO lockdown, and our schools are up and running again (sort of--one of our Vygotsky group just had her school closed because a NEIGHBORING school had a kid test positive and the teachers are worried that kids from the two schools play and study together after hours). We just test and trace--and trust, too, because you really have to trust your neighbors and your government to do the kind of tracking we do over here. It's also worth remembering what Korea had to do to get here--for a whole year in 2017-2018, there were weekly street demos to remove the previous malignancy (a hard-right government that had seized power through a massive disinformation campaign in a very tightly contested election). That president didn't golf or tweet, but she did watch the sinking of a ferry with more than three hundred high school kids below decks on the TV while having her hair done.... Henry--I don't think I ever used the phrase "the brutality of the Chinese regime". Actually, the Chinese regime was and is neither more nor less brutal than any other. The whole point I was trying to make, actually, was the the legitimate Chinese regime under Zhao Ziyang and Hu Qili had to be removed by a military coup in order crush the demonstrations, and even the legitimate military authorities had to be bypassed in order to open fire on ordinary people. Unless we understand that, we get a kind of Chinese exceptionalism when we compare Beijing 1989 with what happened later that year in Romania, and the following year in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union generally.The troops didn't open fire there, but in Beijing they did. Why? Well, I suppose that it was because the PLA has been and to some extent still is an army based on sympathetic warlords and local bandits. That seems a trivial reason, but combined with the mistaken attempts by student leaders to eliminate the particpation of the working class in the national movement, it was decisive. I don't mean to sucker-punch this thread, but for those like Henry who are considering the social democratic alternative, I would like to draw attention to the link below, a critique of a recent book using social democracy as a model for understanding, among other things, progressive education and Vygotskyan theory. It's also worth considering the abject failure of precisely those governments run by the social democrats to cope with Covid-19: Spain and Sweden. Even in Italy, the UK, and Brazil you have far-right governments which are resting on a health system built up by social democracy and you see very similar failures. Social democracy rests on the economic "successes" of capitalism (specifically: imperalism, where capital is exported for profits that can be used to buy off the working class). Social democracy then tries to tinker with the crises, trying to attentuate it with Adam Smith's triumvirate of wages, rents, and interests. There are, of course, limits to any analogy, but if you think of a health crisis as a developmental crisis writ large, you can see why the Chinese model was so much better. Imagine a child who is undergoing a crisis at three or at thirteen. You don't treat the crisis at three by injecting the child with ritalin (although, you know, there WAS a US drug company that wanted to market anti-depressants to children using Eeyore and drugs for ADHD using Tigger!). You shouldn't try to treat the crisis at thirteen by fiddling with the child's new hormone balance. Mutatis mutandis, that would be like taking hydroxychloroquine instead of wearing a mask. (More discussion and even more farfetched analogies in the article linked below!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University Book Review: 'Fees, Beets, and Music: A critical perusal of Critical Pedagogy and Marx, Vygotsky and Freire: Phenomenal forms and educational action research in Mind Culture and Activity https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1745847__;!!Mih3wA!VpDZNaXufOjQR3mCgFBmYRrwIXAJuBUK4HWytPc7qcP-F8IUP5_K_EB5AVVTO609NAfRvQ$ Some free e-prints available at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/QBBGIZNKAHPMM4ZVCWVX/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1745847__;Lw!!Mih3wA!VpDZNaXufOjQR3mCgFBmYRrwIXAJuBUK4HWytPc7qcP-F8IUP5_K_EB5AVVTO63CLuSmWQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VpDZNaXufOjQR3mCgFBmYRrwIXAJuBUK4HWytPc7qcP-F8IUP5_K_EB5AVVTO601zaiLXw$ On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 11:35 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: Sorry, but I seem to have misled you about masks here, David. Wouldn?t want people to think it?s a good idea to pour bleach on cloth and wear it! (Apparently some people, in this country at least, are using bleach on their skin or on their food; wouldn?t like to suggest such dangerous practices.) Our homemade masks are mostly three layers of cotton, some with pouches for filters if someone has or wants one. They are intended to be worn by those of us who may unknowingly be asymptomatic and undiagnosed but still infected with SARS-CoV-2 and able to spread it easily to those we are chanting and walking and kneeling and standing with. We have a continuing very poor diagnostic testing program in most places in this country. The masks are to lessen the danger an individual MIGHT BE to public health rather than a personal health measure way to protect an individual from getting the virus. Every night, we soak and wash whatever masks we have custody of that have been used ? soak in detergent and bleach and rinse well, but some odor of bleach remains, and leave it for a few days before recycling it. Those who wear masks like the N-94 are people who need to be protected by the mask the wearer from getting the virus as they go into spaces recognized as having infected people likely to spread the infection. Of course, as for many things, we do not have a well-functioning public health system so the N-94 type masks are expensive and in short supply in many places. On the other hand, though, sometimes rising to the concrete of homemade masks (needed, yes, but liked because they are so damned whimsical) and the making of them seem to yield confidence, camaraderie, apprenticeships for public engagement and purpose. It?s a bonus that what the virus pandemic has demanded now often plays a part in people learning and using anti-fascist tools against police violence and government misdirection. BTW, what particularly struck me about the DC mayor?s apparent acceptance of BLM in the street art and new street name, is the immediate challenge from DC BLM and, as immediately, the mayor acknowledging that the symbols do not mask the gap in actions that BLM demands! Could this be a dialectic or what? There are about a dozen well sponsored and organized protests in DC today ? reduces worries by some of us about severe dangers to the big number of us that could be used for target practice in one place. BTW: I appreciate getting news updates I learn from (recently off the top of my head) from Carol MacDonald, David Preiss, David Kellog ?). It is different than published material and fills a different function for me. Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 5:11 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity < xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis (Is this thread American-centric? If so, 'twere a grievous fault. But grievously hath Haydi answered it--I don't think anybody can consider his dense, encyclopaedic blocks of text--the polar opposite of Anthony's American-centric orthography as well as Anthony's style and content--in any way American-centric....) Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we read events rather than in the events themselves, Anthony. To me, the situation in and around Washington DC looks very much like the situation in and around Beijing in May1989. As in DC, Beijing had laws preventing the entry of the armed forces other than those of the Beijing Military Region into the city (the exclusion laws were actually written into the Chinese constitution by Mao, who was always afraid of powerful military opponents like Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao). The Beijing Military Region, however, was loyal to the people of Beijing and to the General Secretary Zhao Ziyang, and they opposed to a coup. So, as in DC, the "martial law" forces were called to the city perimeter where they halted for several weeks. As in DC, the provenance of the "martial law" forces were quite mysterious--they didn't carry insignia and it later turned out that these were forces personally loyal to two PLA warlords, the brothers Yang Baibing and Yang Shangkun. As in DC, there were different waves of demonstrators inside the city: someone put up artworks in the square (as the mayor did in DC this morning) and others told people to go home and organize and not stay to be massacred. And then, almost exactly thirty-one years ago, the unmarked shock troops went in shooting, and at least a thousand people died. I hope that part is NOT like DC, but so far the "American exceptionalists" have been proved wrong on every single detail. Clorox on cloth? Gadzooks, Peg. Don't Americans have real N-94s yet? At the very height of the Daegu outbreak people had to resort to cloth masks (I don't think anybody used Clorox, though). Then the government brought in a rationing system so that health care workers could get PPE, and the extras are still rationed according to the numbers on registration cards: we go to the pharmacy twice a week to pick up our ration of three masks. No one is allowed onto a bus, a subway, or into a public building without one. Yesterday I went hiking for two hours and whenever I saw someone coming towards me they hastily put on a mask and bowed. (Do you know, the largest factory for PPE in the USA, and possibly the world until recently, is 3M in Minneapolis? There's a solid transitional demand for a general strike--Masks for all! Occupy 3M!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VpDZNaXufOjQR3mCgFBmYRrwIXAJuBUK4HWytPc7qcP-F8IUP5_K_EB5AVVTO63yECLUMQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VpDZNaXufOjQR3mCgFBmYRrwIXAJuBUK4HWytPc7qcP-F8IUP5_K_EB5AVVTO601zaiLXw$ On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:30 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know of both. On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach > wrote: Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are never fixed given that as participants encounter new contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be blocked by a timid political leadership . For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: Foundations, findings and future challenges. Educational Research Review, 5, 1?24. Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions for expansivelearning and transformative agency. Journal of the Learning Sciences, 25(4), 599-633. -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VpDZNaXufOjQR3mCgFBmYRrwIXAJuBUK4HWytPc7qcP-F8IUP5_K_EB5AVVTO62oBetNRA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200606/de0736d0/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jun 6 17:41:41 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 00:41:41 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net>, Message-ID: To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them here and in the streets for a little while still. To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, shouldn't it? I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might appreciate. We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is just one. Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can rationalize their dear riot gear. Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in there? I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are protesting? There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to heavy. Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more of it. My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right to love one another. That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or right. That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us doesn't. I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. Thank you all in advance for your contributions. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 4:35 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis [EXTERNAL] Peg- N95 masks are available in various parts of the country. If you have an address we could round up some and send them xpress. Give us stuck at homes something to do. mike On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:14 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: Right, David, we have always known our homemade masks are NOT good in that direction. I am glad you all have government provided via pharmacy and ration ones that are good in both directions. Our home made ones are not good the wearer?s personal health, just useful for public health. So far, we have nothing for personal health except for after-the-fact of infection and that only if we are lucky to get the manifestations that we can medicate at home or that we can get to a hospital with the resources we need for whatever Covid puts on our plate. AOC is an amazing woman. She has control of the facts on the ground and the differences among masks too. She knows the ones medical people need are two-way and better but she also recognizes the need for making and wearing and increasing the quality and quantity of our home-made ones. I put it down to her bartender training but others put it down to a super government policy education and dedication. I just got off the streets of Saturday protests in DC. Media still having trouble figuring out how come there are so many different marches that at the same time are all one. Lots of people have given themselves sun up to sun down time frames and a side job of visiting as many different marches as they can. Some incredibly snooty DC restaurants started to ?bring out:? They make their fancy food and bring it out ? more or less forcing it for free on whoever is passing by! I think some protesters modified their plans to pass by that restaurant. A bunch of us just wore out a little after 5, but, there seemed to be a new and better shift coming on. Worst violence during the day so far was to our hearts when we couldn?t hug and kiss toddlers and pre-schoolers we knew and they just didn?t like it at all that we could be so rotten to their sweet selves. Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 5:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis Thanks, Peg. N.B., though, the WHO now defunded by the USA but fortunately refunded by the PRC, has just said that masks ARE for healthy people. You remember that at the beginning of the pandemic, there was a "Western" view of transmission (doctors in the US and Europe) and an Eastern view (here in Korea and China) The "Western" view was all about droplets, which adhered to surfaces and then were transmitted to eyes, nose, and mouth by unwashed hands and face touching. The "Eastern" view was all about aerosols, which hang in the air and doesn't adhere to a surface at all. As Michael Osterholm--another Minnesotan!--explained, an aerosol is what you see in a sunbeam and also what you smell when you stand two aisles away from the perfume department. Now the science is in--it's an aerosol, and a good N-94 (we call them K-95s) will protect you, not just from the people you are talking to but from folks who are two aisles away. It will even protect your lungs and nose from the tear gas if it's tight enough, though you will still need eye protection. I use one with an elastic band that bypasses my ears and a clip that holds the elastic behind my head. Trump says: "Take it!" (hydroxychloroquine, which has zero prophylactic vaue but will exascerbate your heart condition). Ocasio-Cortez says, "Wear it!" (Hey, I wonder who's right...?) Anthony's right to warn against American-centrism: it is examples like Korea that show the world that the pandemic doesn't have to go the American way. We had NO lockdown, and our schools are up and running again (sort of--one of our Vygotsky group just had her school closed because a NEIGHBORING school had a kid test positive and the teachers are worried that kids from the two schools play and study together after hours). We just test and trace--and trust, too, because you really have to trust your neighbors and your government to do the kind of tracking we do over here. It's also worth remembering what Korea had to do to get here--for a whole year in 2017-2018, there were weekly street demos to remove the previous malignancy (a hard-right government that had seized power through a massive disinformation campaign in a very tightly contested election). That president didn't golf or tweet, but she did watch the sinking of a ferry with more than three hundred high school kids below decks on the TV while having her hair done.... Henry--I don't think I ever used the phrase "the brutality of the Chinese regime". Actually, the Chinese regime was and is neither more nor less brutal than any other. The whole point I was trying to make, actually, was the the legitimate Chinese regime under Zhao Ziyang and Hu Qili had to be removed by a military coup in order crush the demonstrations, and even the legitimate military authorities had to be bypassed in order to open fire on ordinary people. Unless we understand that, we get a kind of Chinese exceptionalism when we compare Beijing 1989 with what happened later that year in Romania, and the following year in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union generally.The troops didn't open fire there, but in Beijing they did. Why? Well, I suppose that it was because the PLA has been and to some extent still is an army based on sympathetic warlords and local bandits. That seems a trivial reason, but combined with the mistaken attempts by student leaders to eliminate the particpation of the working class in the national movement, it was decisive. I don't mean to sucker-punch this thread, but for those like Henry who are considering the social democratic alternative, I would like to draw attention to the link below, a critique of a recent book using social democracy as a model for understanding, among other things, progressive education and Vygotskyan theory. It's also worth considering the abject failure of precisely those governments run by the social democrats to cope with Covid-19: Spain and Sweden. Even in Italy, the UK, and Brazil you have far-right governments which are resting on a health system built up by social democracy and you see very similar failures. Social democracy rests on the economic "successes" of capitalism (specifically: imperalism, where capital is exported for profits that can be used to buy off the working class). Social democracy then tries to tinker with the crises, trying to attentuate it with Adam Smith's triumvirate of wages, rents, and interests. There are, of course, limits to any analogy, but if you think of a health crisis as a developmental crisis writ large, you can see why the Chinese model was so much better. Imagine a child who is undergoing a crisis at three or at thirteen. You don't treat the crisis at three by injecting the child with ritalin (although, you know, there WAS a US drug company that wanted to market anti-depressants to children using Eeyore and drugs for ADHD using Tigger!). You shouldn't try to treat the crisis at thirteen by fiddling with the child's new hormone balance. Mutatis mutandis, that would be like taking hydroxychloroquine instead of wearing a mask. (More discussion and even more farfetched analogies in the article linked below!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University Book Review: 'Fees, Beets, and Music: A critical perusal of Critical Pedagogy and Marx, Vygotsky and Freire: Phenomenal forms and educational action research in Mind Culture and Activity https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1745847__;!!Mih3wA!RIcQ6RwHUtd9R-mk_jgwZTQjm_uQ2tnQMCw7EG0dPOLXzN_KmdZ6Bv4Rhmr4w28k1F-YUw$ Some free e-prints available at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/QBBGIZNKAHPMM4ZVCWVX/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1745847__;Lw!!Mih3wA!RIcQ6RwHUtd9R-mk_jgwZTQjm_uQ2tnQMCw7EG0dPOLXzN_KmdZ6Bv4Rhmr4w28Mn-QIIg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RIcQ6RwHUtd9R-mk_jgwZTQjm_uQ2tnQMCw7EG0dPOLXzN_KmdZ6Bv4Rhmr4w296GwHUbg$ On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 11:35 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: Sorry, but I seem to have misled you about masks here, David. Wouldn?t want people to think it?s a good idea to pour bleach on cloth and wear it! (Apparently some people, in this country at least, are using bleach on their skin or on their food; wouldn?t like to suggest such dangerous practices.) Our homemade masks are mostly three layers of cotton, some with pouches for filters if someone has or wants one. They are intended to be worn by those of us who may unknowingly be asymptomatic and undiagnosed but still infected with SARS-CoV-2 and able to spread it easily to those we are chanting and walking and kneeling and standing with. We have a continuing very poor diagnostic testing program in most places in this country. The masks are to lessen the danger an individual MIGHT BE to public health rather than a personal health measure way to protect an individual from getting the virus. Every night, we soak and wash whatever masks we have custody of that have been used ? soak in detergent and bleach and rinse well, but some odor of bleach remains, and leave it for a few days before recycling it. Those who wear masks like the N-94 are people who need to be protected by the mask the wearer from getting the virus as they go into spaces recognized as having infected people likely to spread the infection. Of course, as for many things, we do not have a well-functioning public health system so the N-94 type masks are expensive and in short supply in many places. On the other hand, though, sometimes rising to the concrete of homemade masks (needed, yes, but liked because they are so damned whimsical) and the making of them seem to yield confidence, camaraderie, apprenticeships for public engagement and purpose. It?s a bonus that what the virus pandemic has demanded now often plays a part in people learning and using anti-fascist tools against police violence and government misdirection. BTW, what particularly struck me about the DC mayor?s apparent acceptance of BLM in the street art and new street name, is the immediate challenge from DC BLM and, as immediately, the mayor acknowledging that the symbols do not mask the gap in actions that BLM demands! Could this be a dialectic or what? There are about a dozen well sponsored and organized protests in DC today ? reduces worries by some of us about severe dangers to the big number of us that could be used for target practice in one place. BTW: I appreciate getting news updates I learn from (recently off the top of my head) from Carol MacDonald, David Preiss, David Kellog ?). It is different than published material and fills a different function for me. Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 5:11 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis (Is this thread American-centric? If so, 'twere a grievous fault. But grievously hath Haydi answered it--I don't think anybody can consider his dense, encyclopaedic blocks of text--the polar opposite of Anthony's American-centric orthography as well as Anthony's style and content--in any way American-centric....) Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we read events rather than in the events themselves, Anthony. To me, the situation in and around Washington DC looks very much like the situation in and around Beijing in May1989. As in DC, Beijing had laws preventing the entry of the armed forces other than those of the Beijing Military Region into the city (the exclusion laws were actually written into the Chinese constitution by Mao, who was always afraid of powerful military opponents like Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao). The Beijing Military Region, however, was loyal to the people of Beijing and to the General Secretary Zhao Ziyang, and they opposed to a coup. So, as in DC, the "martial law" forces were called to the city perimeter where they halted for several weeks. As in DC, the provenance of the "martial law" forces were quite mysterious--they didn't carry insignia and it later turned out that these were forces personally loyal to two PLA warlords, the brothers Yang Baibing and Yang Shangkun. As in DC, there were different waves of demonstrators inside the city: someone put up artworks in the square (as the mayor did in DC this morning) and others told people to go home and organize and not stay to be massacred. And then, almost exactly thirty-one years ago, the unmarked shock troops went in shooting, and at least a thousand people died. I hope that part is NOT like DC, but so far the "American exceptionalists" have been proved wrong on every single detail. Clorox on cloth? Gadzooks, Peg. Don't Americans have real N-94s yet? At the very height of the Daegu outbreak people had to resort to cloth masks (I don't think anybody used Clorox, though). Then the government brought in a rationing system so that health care workers could get PPE, and the extras are still rationed according to the numbers on registration cards: we go to the pharmacy twice a week to pick up our ration of three masks. No one is allowed onto a bus, a subway, or into a public building without one. Yesterday I went hiking for two hours and whenever I saw someone coming towards me they hastily put on a mask and bowed. (Do you know, the largest factory for PPE in the USA, and possibly the world until recently, is 3M in Minneapolis? There's a solid transitional demand for a general strike--Masks for all! Occupy 3M!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RIcQ6RwHUtd9R-mk_jgwZTQjm_uQ2tnQMCw7EG0dPOLXzN_KmdZ6Bv4Rhmr4w29qAY-I_Q$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RIcQ6RwHUtd9R-mk_jgwZTQjm_uQ2tnQMCw7EG0dPOLXzN_KmdZ6Bv4Rhmr4w296GwHUbg$ On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:30 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know of both. On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach > wrote: Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are never fixed given that as participants encounter new contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be blocked by a timid political leadership. For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: Foundations, findings and future challenges. Educational Research Review, 5, 1?24. Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions for expansivelearning and transformative agency. Journal of the Learning Sciences, 25(4), 599-633. -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!RIcQ6RwHUtd9R-mk_jgwZTQjm_uQ2tnQMCw7EG0dPOLXzN_KmdZ6Bv4Rhmr4w28vpaScGA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200607/ea937cef/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Sat Jun 6 18:06:08 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 21:06:08 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate to! What a year so far. I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone potentially curious: First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!XgM3_X1riF_AYwqfZ7zTT0dslCVEzwkmg1Kw-a63ReNKrqh653kZrirxQ_TR4yBatxTfPw$ featuring Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!XgM3_X1riF_AYwqfZ7zTT0dslCVEzwkmg1Kw-a63ReNKrqh653kZrirxQ_TR4yB6mIcWCw$ (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against the headwinds a fair amount. Thank you, Anthony On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, > > I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot > of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, > including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them > here and in the streets for a little while still. > > To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the > color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for > him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle > small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, > shouldn't it? > > I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we > must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter > violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky > chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with > flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? > > I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in > unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. > > NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! > > Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might > appreciate. > > We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of > desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is > just one. > > Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if > there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by > peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and > the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can > rationalize their dear riot gear. > > Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and > clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is > referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." > They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who > architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like > watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a > beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the > antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I > wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be > solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? > > I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember > coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in > 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed > looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. > Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. > > There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights > back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This > morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows > boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think > these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the > night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that > street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought > maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in > there? > > I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray paint > on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in a > gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. > > I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are > protesting? > > There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African > American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the > world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, > well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those > people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." > I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe > it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it > will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." > > I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting > dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. > > My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire > point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built > upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this > color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from > another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to > heavy. > > Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more > of it. > > My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far > more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever > fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways > the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being > institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. > > The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental > exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. > > I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how > would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like > now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled > even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? > > The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human > rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right > to love one another. > > That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us > matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or > right. > > That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us > doesn't. > > I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to vocalize > that we have an open wound that needs dressing. > > Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where > Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until > Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, > if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. > > I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change > might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. > > Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way > to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. > > Thank you all in advance for your contributions. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > *Sent:* Saturday, June 6, 2020 4:35 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Peg- > > N95 masks are available in various parts of the country. > If you have an address we could round up some and send them xpress. > Give us stuck at homes something to do. > mike > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:14 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: > > Right, David, we have always known our homemade masks are NOT good in that > direction. I am glad you all have government provided via pharmacy and > ration ones that are good in both directions. Our home made ones are not > good the wearer?s personal health, just useful for public health. > > So far, we have nothing for personal health except for after-the-fact of > infection and that only if we are lucky to get the manifestations that we > can medicate at home or that we can get to a hospital with the resources we > need for whatever Covid puts on our plate. > > AOC is an amazing woman. She has control of the facts on the ground and > the differences among masks too. She knows the ones medical people need are > two-way and better but she also recognizes the need for making and wearing > and increasing the quality and quantity of our home-made ones. I put it > down to her bartender training but others put it down to a super government > policy education and dedication. > > > > I just got off the streets of Saturday protests in DC. Media still having > trouble figuring out how come there are so many different marches that at > the same time are all one. Lots of people have given themselves sun up to > sun down time frames and a side job of visiting as many different marches > as they can. Some incredibly snooty DC restaurants started to ?bring out:? > They make their fancy food and bring it out ? more or less forcing it for > free on whoever is passing by! I think some protesters modified their plans > to pass by that restaurant. > > A bunch of us just wore out a little after 5, but, there seemed to be a > new and better shift coming on. Worst violence during the day so far was > to our hearts when we couldn?t hug and kiss toddlers and pre-schoolers we > knew and they just didn?t like it at all that we could be so rotten to > their sweet selves. > > Peg > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *David Kellogg > *Sent:* Saturday, June 6, 2020 5:18 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > Thanks, Peg. N.B., though, the WHO now defunded by the USA but fortunately > refunded by the PRC, has just said that masks ARE for healthy people. You > remember that at the beginning of the pandemic, there was a "Western" > view of transmission (doctors in the US and Europe) and an Eastern view > (here in Korea and China) The "Western" view was all about droplets, which > adhered to surfaces and then were transmitted to eyes, nose, and mouth by > unwashed hands and face touching. The "Eastern" view was all about > aerosols, which hang in the air and doesn't adhere to a surface at all. As > Michael Osterholm--another Minnesotan!--explained, an aerosol is what you > see in a sunbeam and also what you smell when you stand two aisles away > from the perfume department. Now the science is in--it's an aerosol, and a > good N-94 (we call them K-95s) will protect you, not just from the people > you are talking to but from folks who are two aisles away. It will even > protect your lungs and nose from the tear gas if it's tight enough, though > you will still need eye protection. I use one with an elastic band that > bypasses my ears and a clip that holds the elastic behind my head. Trump > says: "Take it!" (hydroxychloroquine, which has zero prophylactic vaue but > will exascerbate your heart condition). Ocasio-Cortez says, "Wear it!" > (Hey, I wonder who's right...?) > > > > Anthony's right to warn against American-centrism: it is examples like > Korea that show the world that the pandemic doesn't have to go the American > way. We had NO lockdown, and our schools are up and running again (sort > of--one of our Vygotsky group just had her school closed because a > NEIGHBORING school had a kid test positive and the teachers are worried > that kids from the two schools play and study together after hours). We > just test and trace--and trust, too, because you really have to trust your > neighbors and your government to do the kind of tracking we do over > here. It's also worth remembering what Korea had to do to get here--for a > whole year in 2017-2018, there were weekly street demos to remove the > previous malignancy (a hard-right government that had seized power through > a massive disinformation campaign in a very tightly contested election). > That president didn't golf or tweet, but she did watch the sinking of a > ferry with more than three hundred high school kids below decks on the TV > while having her hair done.... > > > > Henry--I don't think I ever used the phrase "the brutality of the Chinese > regime". Actually, the Chinese regime was and is neither more nor less > brutal than any other. The whole point I was trying to make, actually, was > the the legitimate Chinese regime under Zhao Ziyang and Hu Qili had to be > removed by a military coup in order crush the demonstrations, and even the > legitimate military authorities had to be bypassed in order to open fire on > ordinary people. Unless we understand that, we get a kind of Chinese > exceptionalism when we compare Beijing 1989 with what happened later that > year in Romania, and the following year in Eastern Europe and the Soviet > Union generally.The troops didn't open fire there, but in Beijing they did. > Why? Well, I suppose that it was because the PLA has been and to some > extent still is an army based on sympathetic warlords and local bandits. > That seems a trivial reason, but combined with the mistaken attempts by > student leaders to eliminate the particpation of the working class in the > national movement, it was decisive. > > > > I don't mean to sucker-punch this thread, but for those like Henry who are > considering the social democratic alternative, I would like to draw > attention to the link below, a critique of a recent book using social > democracy as a model for understanding, among other things, progressive > education and Vygotskyan theory. It's also worth considering the abject > failure of precisely those governments run by the social democrats to cope > with Covid-19: Spain and Sweden. Even in Italy, the UK, and Brazil you have > far-right governments which are resting on a health system built up by > social democracy and you see very similar failures. Social democracy rests > on the economic "successes" of capitalism (specifically: imperalism, where > capital is exported for profits that can be used to buy off the working > class). Social democracy then tries to tinker with the crises, trying to > attentuate it with Adam Smith's triumvirate of wages, rents, and interests. > > > > > There are, of course, limits to any analogy, but if you think of a health > crisis as a developmental crisis writ large, you can see why the Chinese > model was so much better. Imagine a child who is undergoing a crisis at > three or at thirteen. You don't treat the crisis at three by injecting the > child with ritalin (although, you know, there WAS a US drug company that > wanted to market anti-depressants to children using Eeyore and drugs for > ADHD using Tigger!). You shouldn't try to treat the crisis at thirteen by > fiddling with the child's new hormone balance. Mutatis mutandis, that would > be like taking hydroxychloroquine instead of wearing a mask. > > > > (More discussion and even more farfetched analogies in the article linked > below!) > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > Book Review: 'Fees, Beets, and Music: A critical perusal of *Critical > Pedagogy and Marx, Vygotsky and Freire: Phenomenal forms and educational > action research * > > in *Mind Culture and Activity* > > > > *https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1745847__;!!Mih3wA!XgM3_X1riF_AYwqfZ7zTT0dslCVEzwkmg1Kw-a63ReNKrqh653kZrirxQ_TR4yDaRlGBZA$ > * > > > > Some free e-prints available at: > > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/QBBGIZNKAHPMM4ZVCWVX/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1745847__;Lw!!Mih3wA!XgM3_X1riF_AYwqfZ7zTT0dslCVEzwkmg1Kw-a63ReNKrqh653kZrirxQ_TR4yBY-yRV3g$ > > > > > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XgM3_X1riF_AYwqfZ7zTT0dslCVEzwkmg1Kw-a63ReNKrqh653kZrirxQ_TR4yBS73UKzw$ > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 11:35 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: > > Sorry, but I seem to have misled you about masks here, David. Wouldn?t > want people to think it?s a good idea to pour bleach on cloth and wear it! > (Apparently some people, in this country at least, are using bleach on > their skin or on their food; wouldn?t like to suggest such dangerous > practices.) > > Our homemade masks are mostly three layers of cotton, some with pouches > for filters if someone has or wants one. They are intended to be worn by > those of us who may unknowingly be asymptomatic and undiagnosed but still > infected with SARS-CoV-2 and able to spread it easily to those we are > chanting and walking and kneeling and standing with. We have a continuing > very poor diagnostic testing program in most places in this country. The > masks are to lessen the danger an individual MIGHT BE to public health > rather than a personal health measure way to protect an individual from > getting the virus. Every night, we soak and wash whatever masks we have > custody of that have been used ? soak in detergent and bleach and rinse > well, but some odor of bleach remains, and leave it for a few days before > recycling it. Those who wear masks like the N-94 are people who need to be > protected by the mask the wearer from getting the virus as they go into > spaces recognized as having infected people likely to spread the infection. > > Of course, as for many things, we do not have a well-functioning public > health system so the N-94 type masks are expensive and in short supply in > many places. > > On the other hand, though, sometimes rising to the concrete of homemade > masks (needed, yes, but liked because they are so damned whimsical) and the > making of them seem to yield confidence, camaraderie, apprenticeships for > public engagement and purpose. It?s a bonus that what the virus pandemic > has demanded now often plays a part in people learning and using > anti-fascist tools against police violence and government misdirection. > > > > BTW, what particularly struck me about the DC mayor?s apparent acceptance > of BLM in the street art and new street name, is the immediate challenge > from DC BLM and, as immediately, the mayor acknowledging that the symbols > do not mask the gap in actions that BLM demands! Could this be a > dialectic or what? > > There are about a dozen well sponsored and organized protests in DC today > ? reduces worries by some of us about severe dangers to the big number of > us that could be used for target practice in one place. > > > > BTW: I appreciate getting news updates I learn from (recently off the top > of my head) from Carol MacDonald, David Preiss, David Kellog ?). It is > different than published material and fills a different function for me. > > Peg > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *David Kellogg > *Sent:* Friday, June 5, 2020 5:11 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > (Is this thread American-centric? If so, 'twere a grievous fault. But > grievously hath Haydi answered it--I don't think anybody can consider his > dense, encyclopaedic blocks of text--the polar opposite of Anthony's > American-centric orthography as well as Anthony's style and content--in any > way American-centric....) > > > > Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we > read events rather than in the events themselves, Anthony. To me, the > situation in and around Washington DC looks very much like the situation in > and around Beijing in May1989. As in DC, Beijing had laws preventing the > entry of the armed forces other than those of the Beijing Military > Region into the city (the exclusion laws were actually written into the > Chinese constitution by Mao, who was always afraid of powerful military > opponents like Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao). The Beijing Military Region, > however, was loyal to the people of Beijing and to the General Secretary > Zhao Ziyang, and they opposed to a coup. So, as in DC, the "martial law" > forces were called to the city perimeter where they halted for several > weeks. As in DC, the provenance of the "martial law" forces were quite > mysterious--they didn't carry insignia and it later turned out that these > were forces personally loyal to two PLA warlords, the brothers Yang Baibing > and Yang Shangkun. As in DC, there were different waves of demonstrators > inside the city: someone put up artworks in the square (as the mayor did in > DC this morning) and others told people to go home and organize and not > stay to be massacred. And then, almost exactly thirty-one years ago, the > unmarked shock troops went in shooting, and at least a thousand people > died. I hope that part is NOT like DC, but so far the "American > exceptionalists" have been proved wrong on every single detail. > > > > Clorox on cloth? Gadzooks, Peg. Don't Americans have real N-94s yet? At > the very height of the Daegu outbreak people had to resort to cloth masks > (I don't think anybody used Clorox, though). Then the government brought in > a rationing system so that health care workers could get PPE, and the > extras are still rationed according to the numbers on registration cards: > we go to the pharmacy twice a week to pick up our ration of three masks. No > one is allowed onto a bus, a subway, or into a public building without one. > Yesterday I went hiking for two hours and whenever I saw someone coming > towards me they hastily put on a mask and bowed. > > > > (Do you know, the largest factory for PPE in the USA, and possibly the > world until recently, is 3M in Minneapolis? There's a solid > transitional demand for a general strike--Masks for all! Occupy 3M!) > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XgM3_X1riF_AYwqfZ7zTT0dslCVEzwkmg1Kw-a63ReNKrqh653kZrirxQ_TR4yD6k9tRVg$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XgM3_X1riF_AYwqfZ7zTT0dslCVEzwkmg1Kw-a63ReNKrqh653kZrirxQ_TR4yBS73UKzw$ > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:30 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know > of both. > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach wrote: > > Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive in > activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are > never fixed given that as participants encounter new > contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. > This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms > as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. > > > > Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires > ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives > given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t > necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be > blocked by a timid political leadership > > . > > > > For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: > > Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: > Foundations, findings and future challenges. *Educational Research > Review, 5*, 1?24. > > Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions > for expansivelearning and transformative agency. *Journal of the Learning > Sciences, 25*(4), 599-633. > > > > > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XgM3_X1riF_AYwqfZ7zTT0dslCVEzwkmg1Kw-a63ReNKrqh653kZrirxQ_TR4yCA3TTshQ$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200606/9043ca89/attachment-0001.html From Peg.Griffin@att.net Sat Jun 6 19:15:42 2020 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin, Ph.D.) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 22:15:42 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net>, Message-ID: <001401d63c71$8cbbd7a0$a63386e0$@att.net> Hi, Annalisa, Because of your interest in people with disabilities in protests, I thought might like to know about some things I?ve learned just because of where I happen to be living. 1. Today, I saw several people in wheelchairs and walkers at our various demonstrations around town. Some I know fairly well because over the past few years they have been in a lot of plannings, meetings, trainings and actions that I have also been in. 2. There is a group referred to as ?The littlest lobbyists" who have a local group here but who also have folks from elsewhere that come to DC on occasions important for ADA and IDEA and health care legislation or court action. Usually family accompanies the children but sometimes it?s small school groups. There are also some grown-ups I?ve met in the group who have described themselves to me as having aged out of being little. 3. You probably all already know Ady Barkan who just takes my breath away. He?s 36 years old, a lawyer, activist, husband, father, and a superb organizer for the Center for Popular Democracy, and he has ALS (Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis), a terminal illness. His mobility and speech are increasingly compromised but he is not conquered. Here is a link to ?A Message from Ady Barkan to the movement.? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://populardemocracy.org/2020__;!!Mih3wA!WIpzvPyEp3JNsLZlGn_Pxe08CLz5zaaH5FNInXvWUvc2kOXvOVe-0vXUdTYWhFVxvfv7jg$ Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 8:42 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them here and in the streets for a little while still. To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, shouldn't it? I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might appreciate. We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is just one Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can rationalize their dear riot gear. Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in there? I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are protesting? There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to heavy. Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more of it. My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right to love one another. That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or right. That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us doesn't. I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. Thank you all in advance for your contributions. Kind regards, Annalisa _____ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of mike cole < mcole@ucsd.edu> Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 4:35 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity < xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis [EXTERNAL] Peg- N95 masks are available in various parts of the country. If you have an address we could round up some and send them xpress. Give us stuck at homes something to do. mike On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:14 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: Right, David, we have always known our homemade masks are NOT good in that direction. I am glad you all have government provided via pharmacy and ration ones that are good in both directions. Our home made ones are not good the wearer?s personal health, just useful for public health. So far, we have nothing for personal health except for after-the-fact of infection and that only if we are lucky to get the manifestations that we can medicate at home or that we can get to a hospital with the resources we need for whatever Covid puts on our plate. AOC is an amazing woman. She has control of the facts on the ground and the differences among masks too. She knows the ones medical people need are two-way and better but she also recognizes the need for making and wearing and increasing the quality and quantity of our home-made ones. I put it down to her bartender training but others put it down to a super government policy education and dedication. I just got off the streets of Saturday protests in DC. Media still having trouble figuring out how come there are so many different marches that at the same time are all one. Lots of people have given themselves sun up to sun down time frames and a side job of visiting as many different marches as they can. Some incredibly snooty DC restaurants started to ?bring out:? They make their fancy food and bring it out ? more or less forcing it for free on whoever is passing by! I think some protesters modified their plans to pass by that restaurant. A bunch of us just wore out a little after 5, but, there seemed to be a new and better shift coming on. Worst violence during the day so far was to our hearts when we couldn?t hug and kiss toddlers and pre-schoolers we knew and they just didn?t like it at all that we could be so rotten to their sweet selves. Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 5:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity < xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis Thanks, Peg. N.B., though, the WHO now defunded by the USA but fortunately refunded by the PRC, has just said that masks ARE for healthy people. You remember that at the beginning of the pandemic, there was a "Western" view of transmission (doctors in the US and Europe) and an Eastern view (here in Korea and China) The "Western" view was all about droplets, which adhered to surfaces and then were transmitted to eyes, nose, and mouth by unwashed hands and face touching. The "Eastern" view was all about aerosols, which hang in the air and doesn't adhere to a surface at all. As Michael Osterholm--another Minnesotan!--explained, an aerosol is what you see in a sunbeam and also what you smell when you stand two aisles away from the perfume department. Now the science is in--it's an aerosol, and a good N-94 (we call them K-95s) will protect you, not just from the people you are talking to but from folks who are two aisles away. It will even protect your lungs and nose from the tear gas if it's tight enough, though you will still need eye protection. I use one with an elastic band that bypasses my ears and a clip that holds the elastic behind my head. Trump says: "Take it!" (hydroxychloroquine, which has zero prophylactic vaue but will exascerbate your heart condition). Ocasio-Cortez says, "Wear it!" (Hey, I wonder who's right...?) Anthony's right to warn against American-centrism: it is examples like Korea that show the world that the pandemic doesn't have to go the American way. We had NO lockdown, and our schools are up and running again (sort of--one of our Vygotsky group just had her school closed because a NEIGHBORING school had a kid test positive and the teachers are worried that kids from the two schools play and study together after hours). We just test and trace--and trust, too, because you really have to trust your neighbors and your government to do the kind of tracking we do over here. It's also worth remembering what Korea had to do to get here--for a whole year in 2017-2018, there were weekly street demos to remove the previous malignancy (a hard-right government that had seized power through a massive disinformation campaign in a very tightly contested election). That president didn't golf or tweet, but she did watch the sinking of a ferry with more than three hundred high school kids below decks on the TV while having her hair done.... Henry--I don't think I ever used the phrase "the brutality of the Chinese regime". Actually, the Chinese regime was and is neither more nor less brutal than any other. The whole point I was trying to make, actually, was the the legitimate Chinese regime under Zhao Ziyang and Hu Qili had to be removed by a military coup in order crush the demonstrations, and even the legitimate military authorities had to be bypassed in order to open fire on ordinary people. Unless we understand that, we get a kind of Chinese exceptionalism when we compare Beijing 1989 with what happened later that year in Romania, and the following year in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union generally.The troops didn't open fire there, but in Beijing they did. Why? Well, I suppose that it was because the PLA has been and to some extent still is an army based on sympathetic warlords and local bandits. That seems a trivial reason, but combined with the mistaken attempts by student leaders to eliminate the particpation of the working class in the national movement, it was decisive. I don't mean to sucker-punch this thread, but for those like Henry who are considering the social democratic alternative, I would like to draw attention to the link below, a critique of a recent book using social democracy as a model for understanding, among other things, progressive education and Vygotskyan theory. It's also worth considering the abject failure of precisely those governments run by the social democrats to cope with Covid-19: Spain and Sweden. Even in Italy, the UK, and Brazil you have far-right governments which are resting on a health system built up by social democracy and you see very similar failures. Social democracy rests on the economic "successes" of capitalism (specifically: imperalism, where capital is exported for profits that can be used to buy off the working class). Social democracy then tries to tinker with the crises, trying to attentuate it with Adam Smith's triumvirate of wages, rents, and interests. There are, of course, limits to any analogy, but if you think of a health crisis as a developmental crisis writ large, you can see why the Chinese model was so much better. Imagine a child who is undergoing a crisis at three or at thirteen. You don't treat the crisis at three by injecting the child with ritalin (although, you know, there WAS a US drug company that wanted to market anti-depressants to children using Eeyore and drugs for ADHD using Tigger!). You shouldn't try to treat the crisis at thirteen by fiddling with the child's new hormone balance. Mutatis mutandis, that would be like taking hydroxychloroquine instead of wearing a mask. (More discussion and even more farfetched analogies in the article linked below!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University Book Review: 'Fees, Beets, and Music: A critical perusal of Critical Pedagogy and Marx, Vygotsky and Freire: Phenomenal forms and educational action research in Mind Culture and Activity https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1745847__;!!Mih3wA!WIpzvPyEp3JNsLZlGn_Pxe08CLz5zaaH5FNInXvWUvc2kOXvOVe-0vXUdTYWhFUzEy0ZzQ$ Some free e-prints available at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/QBBGIZNKAHPMM4ZVCWVX/full?target=10.1080*__;Lw!!Mih3wA!WIpzvPyEp3JNsLZlGn_Pxe08CLz5zaaH5FNInXvWUvc2kOXvOVe-0vXUdTYWhFUb2daXZg$ 10749039.2020.1745847 New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WIpzvPyEp3JNsLZlGn_Pxe08CLz5zaaH5FNInXvWUvc2kOXvOVe-0vXUdTYWhFUsEPVfog$ On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 11:35 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: Sorry, but I seem to have misled you about masks here, David. Wouldn?t want people to think it?s a good idea to pour bleach on cloth and wear it! (Apparently some people, in this country at least, are using bleach on their skin or on their food; wouldn?t like to suggest such dangerous practices.) Our homemade masks are mostly three layers of cotton, some with pouches for filters if someone has or wants one. They are intended to be worn by those of us who may unknowingly be asymptomatic and undiagnosed but still infected with SARS-CoV-2 and able to spread it easily to those we are chanting and walking and kneeling and standing with. We have a continuing very poor diagnostic testing program in most places in this country. The masks are to lessen the danger an individual MIGHT BE to public health rather than a personal health measure way to protect an individual from getting the virus. Every night, we soak and wash whatever masks we have custody of that have been used ? soak in detergent and bleach and rinse well, but some odor of bleach remains, and leave it for a few days before recycling it. Those who wear masks like the N-94 are people who need to be protected by the mask the wearer from getting the virus as they go into spaces recognized as having infected people likely to spread the infection. Of course, as for many things, we do not have a well-functioning public health system so the N-94 type masks are expensive and in short supply in many places. On the other hand, though, sometimes rising to the concrete of homemade masks (needed, yes, but liked because they are so damned whimsical) and the making of them seem to yield confidence, camaraderie, apprenticeships for public engagement and purpose. It?s a bonus that what the virus pandemic has demanded now often plays a part in people learning and using anti-fascist tools against police violence and government misdirection. BTW, what particularly struck me about the DC mayor?s apparent acceptance of BLM in the street art and new street name, is the immediate challenge from DC BLM and, as immediately, the mayor acknowledging that the symbols do not mask the gap in actions that BLM demands! Could this be a dialectic or what? There are about a dozen well sponsored and organized protests in DC today ? reduces worries by some of us about severe dangers to the big number of us that could be used for target practice in one place. BTW: I appreciate getting news updates I learn from (recently off the top of my head) from Carol MacDonald, David Preiss, David Kellog ). It is different than published material and fills a different function for me. Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 5:11 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity < xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis (Is this thread American-centric? If so, 'twere a grievous fault. But grievously hath Haydi answered it--I don't think anybody can consider his dense, encyclopaedic blocks of text--the polar opposite of Anthony's American-centric orthography as well as Anthony's style and content--in any way American-centric...) Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we read events rather than in the events themselves, Anthony. To me, the situation in and around Washington DC looks very much like the situation in and around Beijing in May1989. As in DC, Beijing had laws preventing the entry of the armed forces other than those of the Beijing Military Region into the city (the exclusion laws were actually written into the Chinese constitution by Mao, who was always afraid of powerful military opponents like Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao). The Beijing Military Region, however, was loyal to the people of Beijing and to the General Secretary Zhao Ziyang, and they opposed to a coup. So, as in DC, the "martial law" forces were called to the city perimeter where they halted for several weeks. As in DC, the provenance of the "martial law" forces were quite mysterious--they didn't carry insignia and it later turned out that these were forces personally loyal to two PLA warlords, the brothers Yang Baibing and Yang Shangkun. As in DC, there were different waves of demonstrators inside the city: someone put up artworks in the square (as the mayor did in DC this morning) and others told people to go home and organize and not stay to be massacred. And then, almost exactly thirty-one years ago, the unmarked shock troops went in shooting, and at least a thousand people died. I hope that part is NOT like DC, but so far the "American exceptionalists" have been proved wrong on every single detail. Clorox on cloth? Gadzooks, Peg. Don't Americans have real N-94s yet? At the very height of the Daegu outbreak people had to resort to cloth masks (I don't think anybody used Clorox, though). Then the government brought in a rationing system so that health care workers could get PPE, and the extras are still rationed according to the numbers on registration cards: we go to the pharmacy twice a week to pick up our ration of three masks. No one is allowed onto a bus, a subway, or into a public building without one. Yesterday I went hiking for two hours and whenever I saw someone coming towards me they hastily put on a mask and bowed. (Do you know, the largest factory for PPE in the USA, and possibly the world until recently, is 3M in Minneapolis? There's a solid transitional demand for a general strike--Masks for all! Occupy 3M!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WIpzvPyEp3JNsLZlGn_Pxe08CLz5zaaH5FNInXvWUvc2kOXvOVe-0vXUdTYWhFULxIjJhQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WIpzvPyEp3JNsLZlGn_Pxe08CLz5zaaH5FNInXvWUvc2kOXvOVe-0vXUdTYWhFUsEPVfog$ On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:30 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know of both. On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach > wrote: Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are never fixed given that as participants encounter new contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be blocked by a timid political leadership For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: Foundations, findings and future challenges. Educational Research Review, 5, 1?24. Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions for expansivelearning and transformative agency. Journal of the Learning Sciences, 25(4), 599-633. -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxisnet__;!!Mih3wA!WIpzvPyEp3JNsLZlGn_Pxe08CLz5zaaH5FNInXvWUvc2kOXvOVe-0vXUdTYWhFXvJA84MQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200606/d5120a07/attachment.html From haydizulfei@gmail.com Sat Jun 6 23:56:45 2020 From: haydizulfei@gmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 11:26:45 +0430 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: To some compassionate peace-loving friend : It's nothing else but being passioned to reasoning as "normalcy" declares and as Shonnered says and thanks both for this and for that! To the idea whether it's a visceral effect or a thoughtful find-way , we should see ...?! Highest regards Haydi On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 5:13 AM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, > > I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot > of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, > including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them > here and in the streets for a little while still. > > To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the > color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for > him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle > small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, > shouldn't it? > > I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we > must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter > violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky > chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with > flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? > > I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in > unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. > > NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! > > Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might > appreciate. > > We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of > desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is > just one. > > Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if > there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by > peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and > the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can > rationalize their dear riot gear. > > Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and > clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is > referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." > They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who > architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like > watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a > beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the > antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I > wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be > solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? > > I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember > coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in > 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed > looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. > Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. > > There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights > back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This > morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows > boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think > these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the > night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that > street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought > maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in > there? > > I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray paint > on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in a > gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. > > I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are > protesting? > > There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African > American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the > world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, > well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those > people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." > I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe > it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it > will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." > > I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting > dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. > > My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire > point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built > upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this > color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from > another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to > heavy. > > Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more > of it. > > My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far > more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever > fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways > the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being > institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. > > The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental > exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. > > I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how > would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like > now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled > even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? > > The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human > rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right > to love one another. > > That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us > matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or > right. > > That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us > doesn't. > > I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to vocalize > that we have an open wound that needs dressing. > > Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where > Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until > Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, > if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. > > I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change > might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. > > Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way > to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. > > Thank you all in advance for your contributions. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > *Sent:* Saturday, June 6, 2020 4:35 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Peg- > > N95 masks are available in various parts of the country. > If you have an address we could round up some and send them xpress. > Give us stuck at homes something to do. > mike > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:14 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: > > Right, David, we have always known our homemade masks are NOT good in that > direction. I am glad you all have government provided via pharmacy and > ration ones that are good in both directions. Our home made ones are not > good the wearer?s personal health, just useful for public health. > > So far, we have nothing for personal health except for after-the-fact of > infection and that only if we are lucky to get the manifestations that we > can medicate at home or that we can get to a hospital with the resources we > need for whatever Covid puts on our plate. > > AOC is an amazing woman. She has control of the facts on the ground and > the differences among masks too. She knows the ones medical people need are > two-way and better but she also recognizes the need for making and wearing > and increasing the quality and quantity of our home-made ones. I put it > down to her bartender training but others put it down to a super government > policy education and dedication. > > > > I just got off the streets of Saturday protests in DC. Media still having > trouble figuring out how come there are so many different marches that at > the same time are all one. Lots of people have given themselves sun up to > sun down time frames and a side job of visiting as many different marches > as they can. Some incredibly snooty DC restaurants started to ?bring out:? > They make their fancy food and bring it out ? more or less forcing it for > free on whoever is passing by! I think some protesters modified their plans > to pass by that restaurant. > > A bunch of us just wore out a little after 5, but, there seemed to be a > new and better shift coming on. Worst violence during the day so far was > to our hearts when we couldn?t hug and kiss toddlers and pre-schoolers we > knew and they just didn?t like it at all that we could be so rotten to > their sweet selves. > > Peg > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *David Kellogg > *Sent:* Saturday, June 6, 2020 5:18 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > Thanks, Peg. N.B., though, the WHO now defunded by the USA but fortunately > refunded by the PRC, has just said that masks ARE for healthy people. You > remember that at the beginning of the pandemic, there was a "Western" > view of transmission (doctors in the US and Europe) and an Eastern view > (here in Korea and China) The "Western" view was all about droplets, which > adhered to surfaces and then were transmitted to eyes, nose, and mouth by > unwashed hands and face touching. The "Eastern" view was all about > aerosols, which hang in the air and doesn't adhere to a surface at all. As > Michael Osterholm--another Minnesotan!--explained, an aerosol is what you > see in a sunbeam and also what you smell when you stand two aisles away > from the perfume department. Now the science is in--it's an aerosol, and a > good N-94 (we call them K-95s) will protect you, not just from the people > you are talking to but from folks who are two aisles away. It will even > protect your lungs and nose from the tear gas if it's tight enough, though > you will still need eye protection. I use one with an elastic band that > bypasses my ears and a clip that holds the elastic behind my head. Trump > says: "Take it!" (hydroxychloroquine, which has zero prophylactic vaue but > will exascerbate your heart condition). Ocasio-Cortez says, "Wear it!" > (Hey, I wonder who's right...?) > > > > Anthony's right to warn against American-centrism: it is examples like > Korea that show the world that the pandemic doesn't have to go the American > way. We had NO lockdown, and our schools are up and running again (sort > of--one of our Vygotsky group just had her school closed because a > NEIGHBORING school had a kid test positive and the teachers are worried > that kids from the two schools play and study together after hours). We > just test and trace--and trust, too, because you really have to trust your > neighbors and your government to do the kind of tracking we do over > here. It's also worth remembering what Korea had to do to get here--for a > whole year in 2017-2018, there were weekly street demos to remove the > previous malignancy (a hard-right government that had seized power through > a massive disinformation campaign in a very tightly contested election). > That president didn't golf or tweet, but she did watch the sinking of a > ferry with more than three hundred high school kids below decks on the TV > while having her hair done.... > > > > Henry--I don't think I ever used the phrase "the brutality of the Chinese > regime". Actually, the Chinese regime was and is neither more nor less > brutal than any other. The whole point I was trying to make, actually, was > the the legitimate Chinese regime under Zhao Ziyang and Hu Qili had to be > removed by a military coup in order crush the demonstrations, and even the > legitimate military authorities had to be bypassed in order to open fire on > ordinary people. Unless we understand that, we get a kind of Chinese > exceptionalism when we compare Beijing 1989 with what happened later that > year in Romania, and the following year in Eastern Europe and the Soviet > Union generally.The troops didn't open fire there, but in Beijing they did. > Why? Well, I suppose that it was because the PLA has been and to some > extent still is an army based on sympathetic warlords and local bandits. > That seems a trivial reason, but combined with the mistaken attempts by > student leaders to eliminate the particpation of the working class in the > national movement, it was decisive. > > > > I don't mean to sucker-punch this thread, but for those like Henry who are > considering the social democratic alternative, I would like to draw > attention to the link below, a critique of a recent book using social > democracy as a model for understanding, among other things, progressive > education and Vygotskyan theory. It's also worth considering the abject > failure of precisely those governments run by the social democrats to cope > with Covid-19: Spain and Sweden. Even in Italy, the UK, and Brazil you have > far-right governments which are resting on a health system built up by > social democracy and you see very similar failures. Social democracy rests > on the economic "successes" of capitalism (specifically: imperalism, where > capital is exported for profits that can be used to buy off the working > class). Social democracy then tries to tinker with the crises, trying to > attentuate it with Adam Smith's triumvirate of wages, rents, and interests. > > > > > There are, of course, limits to any analogy, but if you think of a health > crisis as a developmental crisis writ large, you can see why the Chinese > model was so much better. Imagine a child who is undergoing a crisis at > three or at thirteen. You don't treat the crisis at three by injecting the > child with ritalin (although, you know, there WAS a US drug company that > wanted to market anti-depressants to children using Eeyore and drugs for > ADHD using Tigger!). You shouldn't try to treat the crisis at thirteen by > fiddling with the child's new hormone balance. Mutatis mutandis, that would > be like taking hydroxychloroquine instead of wearing a mask. > > > > (More discussion and even more farfetched analogies in the article linked > below!) > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > Book Review: 'Fees, Beets, and Music: A critical perusal of *Critical > Pedagogy and Marx, Vygotsky and Freire: Phenomenal forms and educational > action research * > > in *Mind Culture and Activity* > > > > *https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1745847__;!!Mih3wA!VQm6-XKNmxMItGwtYNqhbVBEqBZfeLGDwlkb8Vn6bQK6v_S6kUlPiDe5ahBrcnIKeU4n8Q$ > * > > > > Some free e-prints available at: > > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/QBBGIZNKAHPMM4ZVCWVX/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1745847__;Lw!!Mih3wA!VQm6-XKNmxMItGwtYNqhbVBEqBZfeLGDwlkb8Vn6bQK6v_S6kUlPiDe5ahBrcnKIVsLR7w$ > > > > > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VQm6-XKNmxMItGwtYNqhbVBEqBZfeLGDwlkb8Vn6bQK6v_S6kUlPiDe5ahBrcnLDMJ4OgA$ > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 11:35 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: > > Sorry, but I seem to have misled you about masks here, David. Wouldn?t > want people to think it?s a good idea to pour bleach on cloth and wear it! > (Apparently some people, in this country at least, are using bleach on > their skin or on their food; wouldn?t like to suggest such dangerous > practices.) > > Our homemade masks are mostly three layers of cotton, some with pouches > for filters if someone has or wants one. They are intended to be worn by > those of us who may unknowingly be asymptomatic and undiagnosed but still > infected with SARS-CoV-2 and able to spread it easily to those we are > chanting and walking and kneeling and standing with. We have a continuing > very poor diagnostic testing program in most places in this country. The > masks are to lessen the danger an individual MIGHT BE to public health > rather than a personal health measure way to protect an individual from > getting the virus. Every night, we soak and wash whatever masks we have > custody of that have been used ? soak in detergent and bleach and rinse > well, but some odor of bleach remains, and leave it for a few days before > recycling it. Those who wear masks like the N-94 are people who need to be > protected by the mask the wearer from getting the virus as they go into > spaces recognized as having infected people likely to spread the infection. > > Of course, as for many things, we do not have a well-functioning public > health system so the N-94 type masks are expensive and in short supply in > many places. > > On the other hand, though, sometimes rising to the concrete of homemade > masks (needed, yes, but liked because they are so damned whimsical) and the > making of them seem to yield confidence, camaraderie, apprenticeships for > public engagement and purpose. It?s a bonus that what the virus pandemic > has demanded now often plays a part in people learning and using > anti-fascist tools against police violence and government misdirection. > > > > BTW, what particularly struck me about the DC mayor?s apparent acceptance > of BLM in the street art and new street name, is the immediate challenge > from DC BLM and, as immediately, the mayor acknowledging that the symbols > do not mask the gap in actions that BLM demands! Could this be a > dialectic or what? > > There are about a dozen well sponsored and organized protests in DC today > ? reduces worries by some of us about severe dangers to the big number of > us that could be used for target practice in one place. > > > > BTW: I appreciate getting news updates I learn from (recently off the top > of my head) from Carol MacDonald, David Preiss, David Kellog ?). It is > different than published material and fills a different function for me. > > Peg > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *David Kellogg > *Sent:* Friday, June 5, 2020 5:11 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > (Is this thread American-centric? If so, 'twere a grievous fault. But > grievously hath Haydi answered it--I don't think anybody can consider his > dense, encyclopaedic blocks of text--the polar opposite of Anthony's > American-centric orthography as well as Anthony's style and content--in any > way American-centric....) > > > > Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we > read events rather than in the events themselves, Anthony. To me, the > situation in and around Washington DC looks very much like the situation in > and around Beijing in May1989. As in DC, Beijing had laws preventing the > entry of the armed forces other than those of the Beijing Military > Region into the city (the exclusion laws were actually written into the > Chinese constitution by Mao, who was always afraid of powerful military > opponents like Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao). The Beijing Military Region, > however, was loyal to the people of Beijing and to the General Secretary > Zhao Ziyang, and they opposed to a coup. So, as in DC, the "martial law" > forces were called to the city perimeter where they halted for several > weeks. As in DC, the provenance of the "martial law" forces were quite > mysterious--they didn't carry insignia and it later turned out that these > were forces personally loyal to two PLA warlords, the brothers Yang Baibing > and Yang Shangkun. As in DC, there were different waves of demonstrators > inside the city: someone put up artworks in the square (as the mayor did in > DC this morning) and others told people to go home and organize and not > stay to be massacred. And then, almost exactly thirty-one years ago, the > unmarked shock troops went in shooting, and at least a thousand people > died. I hope that part is NOT like DC, but so far the "American > exceptionalists" have been proved wrong on every single detail. > > > > Clorox on cloth? Gadzooks, Peg. Don't Americans have real N-94s yet? At > the very height of the Daegu outbreak people had to resort to cloth masks > (I don't think anybody used Clorox, though). Then the government brought in > a rationing system so that health care workers could get PPE, and the > extras are still rationed according to the numbers on registration cards: > we go to the pharmacy twice a week to pick up our ration of three masks. No > one is allowed onto a bus, a subway, or into a public building without one. > Yesterday I went hiking for two hours and whenever I saw someone coming > towards me they hastily put on a mask and bowed. > > > > (Do you know, the largest factory for PPE in the USA, and possibly the > world until recently, is 3M in Minneapolis? There's a solid > transitional demand for a general strike--Masks for all! Occupy 3M!) > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VQm6-XKNmxMItGwtYNqhbVBEqBZfeLGDwlkb8Vn6bQK6v_S6kUlPiDe5ahBrcnJB4jK5QA$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VQm6-XKNmxMItGwtYNqhbVBEqBZfeLGDwlkb8Vn6bQK6v_S6kUlPiDe5ahBrcnLDMJ4OgA$ > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:30 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know > of both. > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach wrote: > > Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive in > activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are > never fixed given that as participants encounter new > contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. > This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms > as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. > > > > Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires > ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives > given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t > necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be > blocked by a timid political leadership > > . > > > > For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: > > Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: > Foundations, findings and future challenges. *Educational Research > Review, 5*, 1?24. > > Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions > for expansivelearning and transformative agency. *Journal of the Learning > Sciences, 25*(4), 599-633. > > > > > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VQm6-XKNmxMItGwtYNqhbVBEqBZfeLGDwlkb8Vn6bQK6v_S6kUlPiDe5ahBrcnIX7tNCzA$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200607/38d4cf44/attachment.html From billkerr@gmail.com Sun Jun 7 00:59:28 2020 From: billkerr@gmail.com (Bill Kerr) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 17:29:28 +0930 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: hi Anthony, I watched both videos. Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not disproportionate murder of black people. Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still not widely understood. Thank you On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra wrote: > I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, > and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate > to! What a year so far. > > I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone > potentially curious: > First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!Q7oZGoNWEy60zzeOFIfsgt_6Erpa7fGaIhpywPZMHemnVMred9Y8rU9DXjkUqEwWfqR9Jw$ > featuring > Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link > that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) > > and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle > commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!Q7oZGoNWEy60zzeOFIfsgt_6Erpa7fGaIhpywPZMHemnVMred9Y8rU9DXjkUqEwQMaJJrg$ > > (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his > perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. > > Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these > videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against > the headwinds a fair amount. > > Thank you, > > Anthony > > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >> To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, >> >> I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot >> of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, >> including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them >> here and in the streets for a little while still. >> >> To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the >> color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for >> him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle >> small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, >> shouldn't it? >> >> I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we >> must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter >> violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky >> chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with >> flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? >> >> I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in >> unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. >> >> NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! >> >> Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might >> appreciate. >> >> We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of >> desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is >> just one. >> >> Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if >> there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by >> peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and >> the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can >> rationalize their dear riot gear. >> >> Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and >> clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is >> referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." >> They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who >> architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like >> watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a >> beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the >> antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I >> wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be >> solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? >> >> I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember >> coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in >> 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed >> looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. >> Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. >> >> There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few >> nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. >> This morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows >> boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think >> these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the >> night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that >> street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought >> maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in >> there? >> >> I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray >> paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in >> a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. >> >> I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are >> protesting? >> >> There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African >> American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the >> world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, >> well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those >> people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." >> I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe >> it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it >> will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." >> >> I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting >> dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. >> >> My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire >> point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built >> upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this >> color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from >> another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to >> heavy. >> >> Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more >> of it. >> >> My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far >> more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever >> fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways >> the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being >> institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. >> >> The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental >> exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. >> >> I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how >> would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like >> now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled >> even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? >> >> The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human >> rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right >> to love one another. >> >> That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us >> matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or >> right. >> >> That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us >> doesn't. >> >> I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to >> vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. >> >> Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where >> Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until >> Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, >> if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. >> >> I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change >> might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. >> >> Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way >> to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. >> >> Thank you all in advance for your contributions. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of mike cole >> *Sent:* Saturday, June 6, 2020 4:35 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> Peg- >> >> N95 masks are available in various parts of the country. >> If you have an address we could round up some and send them xpress. >> Give us stuck at homes something to do. >> mike >> >> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:14 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. >> wrote: >> >> Right, David, we have always known our homemade masks are NOT good in >> that direction. I am glad you all have government provided via pharmacy and >> ration ones that are good in both directions. Our home made ones are not >> good the wearer?s personal health, just useful for public health. >> >> So far, we have nothing for personal health except for after-the-fact of >> infection and that only if we are lucky to get the manifestations that we >> can medicate at home or that we can get to a hospital with the resources we >> need for whatever Covid puts on our plate. >> >> AOC is an amazing woman. She has control of the facts on the ground and >> the differences among masks too. She knows the ones medical people need are >> two-way and better but she also recognizes the need for making and wearing >> and increasing the quality and quantity of our home-made ones. I put it >> down to her bartender training but others put it down to a super government >> policy education and dedication. >> >> >> >> I just got off the streets of Saturday protests in DC. Media still >> having trouble figuring out how come there are so many different marches >> that at the same time are all one. Lots of people have given themselves >> sun up to sun down time frames and a side job of visiting as many different >> marches as they can. Some incredibly snooty DC restaurants started to >> ?bring out:? They make their fancy food and bring it out ? more or less >> forcing it for free on whoever is passing by! I think some protesters >> modified their plans to pass by that restaurant. >> >> A bunch of us just wore out a little after 5, but, there seemed to be a >> new and better shift coming on. Worst violence during the day so far was >> to our hearts when we couldn?t hug and kiss toddlers and pre-schoolers we >> knew and they just didn?t like it at all that we could be so rotten to >> their sweet selves. >> >> Peg >> >> >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *David Kellogg >> *Sent:* Saturday, June 6, 2020 5:18 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >> >> >> >> Thanks, Peg. N.B., though, the WHO now defunded by the USA but >> fortunately refunded by the PRC, has just said that masks ARE for healthy >> people. You remember that at the beginning of the pandemic, there was a >> "Western" view of transmission (doctors in the US and Europe) and an >> Eastern view (here in Korea and China) The "Western" view was all >> about droplets, which adhered to surfaces and then were transmitted to >> eyes, nose, and mouth by unwashed hands and face touching. The "Eastern" >> view was all about aerosols, which hang in the air and doesn't adhere to a >> surface at all. As Michael Osterholm--another Minnesotan!--explained, an >> aerosol is what you see in a sunbeam and also what you smell when you stand >> two aisles away from the perfume department. Now the science is in--it's an >> aerosol, and a good N-94 (we call them K-95s) will protect you, not just >> from the people you are talking to but from folks who are two aisles away. >> It will even protect your lungs and nose from the tear gas if it's tight >> enough, though you will still need eye protection. I use one with an >> elastic band that bypasses my ears and a clip that holds the elastic behind >> my head. Trump says: "Take it!" (hydroxychloroquine, which has zero >> prophylactic vaue but will exascerbate your heart condition). Ocasio-Cortez >> says, "Wear it!" (Hey, I wonder who's right...?) >> >> >> >> Anthony's right to warn against American-centrism: it is examples like >> Korea that show the world that the pandemic doesn't have to go the American >> way. We had NO lockdown, and our schools are up and running again (sort >> of--one of our Vygotsky group just had her school closed because a >> NEIGHBORING school had a kid test positive and the teachers are worried >> that kids from the two schools play and study together after hours). We >> just test and trace--and trust, too, because you really have to trust your >> neighbors and your government to do the kind of tracking we do over >> here. It's also worth remembering what Korea had to do to get here--for a >> whole year in 2017-2018, there were weekly street demos to remove the >> previous malignancy (a hard-right government that had seized power through >> a massive disinformation campaign in a very tightly contested election). >> That president didn't golf or tweet, but she did watch the sinking of a >> ferry with more than three hundred high school kids below decks on the TV >> while having her hair done.... >> >> >> >> Henry--I don't think I ever used the phrase "the brutality of the Chinese >> regime". Actually, the Chinese regime was and is neither more nor less >> brutal than any other. The whole point I was trying to make, actually, was >> the the legitimate Chinese regime under Zhao Ziyang and Hu Qili had to be >> removed by a military coup in order crush the demonstrations, and even the >> legitimate military authorities had to be bypassed in order to open fire on >> ordinary people. Unless we understand that, we get a kind of Chinese >> exceptionalism when we compare Beijing 1989 with what happened later that >> year in Romania, and the following year in Eastern Europe and the Soviet >> Union generally.The troops didn't open fire there, but in Beijing they did. >> Why? Well, I suppose that it was because the PLA has been and to some >> extent still is an army based on sympathetic warlords and local bandits. >> That seems a trivial reason, but combined with the mistaken attempts by >> student leaders to eliminate the particpation of the working class in the >> national movement, it was decisive. >> >> >> >> I don't mean to sucker-punch this thread, but for those like Henry who >> are considering the social democratic alternative, I would like to draw >> attention to the link below, a critique of a recent book using social >> democracy as a model for understanding, among other things, progressive >> education and Vygotskyan theory. It's also worth considering the abject >> failure of precisely those governments run by the social democrats to cope >> with Covid-19: Spain and Sweden. Even in Italy, the UK, and Brazil you have >> far-right governments which are resting on a health system built up by >> social democracy and you see very similar failures. Social democracy rests >> on the economic "successes" of capitalism (specifically: imperalism, where >> capital is exported for profits that can be used to buy off the working >> class). Social democracy then tries to tinker with the crises, trying to >> attentuate it with Adam Smith's triumvirate of wages, rents, and interests. >> >> >> >> >> There are, of course, limits to any analogy, but if you think of a health >> crisis as a developmental crisis writ large, you can see why the Chinese >> model was so much better. Imagine a child who is undergoing a crisis at >> three or at thirteen. You don't treat the crisis at three by injecting the >> child with ritalin (although, you know, there WAS a US drug company that >> wanted to market anti-depressants to children using Eeyore and drugs for >> ADHD using Tigger!). You shouldn't try to treat the crisis at thirteen by >> fiddling with the child's new hormone balance. Mutatis mutandis, that would >> be like taking hydroxychloroquine instead of wearing a mask. >> >> >> >> (More discussion and even more farfetched analogies in the article linked >> below!) >> >> >> >> David Kellogg >> >> Sangmyung University >> >> >> >> Book Review: 'Fees, Beets, and Music: A critical perusal of *Critical >> Pedagogy and Marx, Vygotsky and Freire: Phenomenal forms and educational >> action research * >> >> in *Mind Culture and Activity* >> >> >> >> *https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1745847__;!!Mih3wA!Q7oZGoNWEy60zzeOFIfsgt_6Erpa7fGaIhpywPZMHemnVMred9Y8rU9DXjkUqEw5-zyZng$ >> * >> >> >> >> Some free e-prints available at: >> >> >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/QBBGIZNKAHPMM4ZVCWVX/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1745847__;Lw!!Mih3wA!Q7oZGoNWEy60zzeOFIfsgt_6Erpa7fGaIhpywPZMHemnVMred9Y8rU9DXjkUqExYxQAT6Q$ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Q7oZGoNWEy60zzeOFIfsgt_6Erpa7fGaIhpywPZMHemnVMred9Y8rU9DXjkUqExOP-xwwQ$ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 11:35 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. >> wrote: >> >> Sorry, but I seem to have misled you about masks here, David. Wouldn?t >> want people to think it?s a good idea to pour bleach on cloth and wear it! >> (Apparently some people, in this country at least, are using bleach on >> their skin or on their food; wouldn?t like to suggest such dangerous >> practices.) >> >> Our homemade masks are mostly three layers of cotton, some with pouches >> for filters if someone has or wants one. They are intended to be worn by >> those of us who may unknowingly be asymptomatic and undiagnosed but still >> infected with SARS-CoV-2 and able to spread it easily to those we are >> chanting and walking and kneeling and standing with. We have a continuing >> very poor diagnostic testing program in most places in this country. The >> masks are to lessen the danger an individual MIGHT BE to public health >> rather than a personal health measure way to protect an individual from >> getting the virus. Every night, we soak and wash whatever masks we have >> custody of that have been used ? soak in detergent and bleach and rinse >> well, but some odor of bleach remains, and leave it for a few days before >> recycling it. Those who wear masks like the N-94 are people who need to be >> protected by the mask the wearer from getting the virus as they go into >> spaces recognized as having infected people likely to spread the infection. >> >> Of course, as for many things, we do not have a well-functioning public >> health system so the N-94 type masks are expensive and in short supply in >> many places. >> >> On the other hand, though, sometimes rising to the concrete of homemade >> masks (needed, yes, but liked because they are so damned whimsical) and the >> making of them seem to yield confidence, camaraderie, apprenticeships for >> public engagement and purpose. It?s a bonus that what the virus pandemic >> has demanded now often plays a part in people learning and using >> anti-fascist tools against police violence and government misdirection. >> >> >> >> BTW, what particularly struck me about the DC mayor?s apparent acceptance >> of BLM in the street art and new street name, is the immediate challenge >> from DC BLM and, as immediately, the mayor acknowledging that the symbols >> do not mask the gap in actions that BLM demands! Could this be a >> dialectic or what? >> >> There are about a dozen well sponsored and organized protests in DC today >> ? reduces worries by some of us about severe dangers to the big number of >> us that could be used for target practice in one place. >> >> >> >> BTW: I appreciate getting news updates I learn from (recently off the >> top of my head) from Carol MacDonald, David Preiss, David Kellog ?). It is >> different than published material and fills a different function for me. >> >> Peg >> >> >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *David Kellogg >> *Sent:* Friday, June 5, 2020 5:11 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >> >> >> >> (Is this thread American-centric? If so, 'twere a grievous fault. But >> grievously hath Haydi answered it--I don't think anybody can consider his >> dense, encyclopaedic blocks of text--the polar opposite of Anthony's >> American-centric orthography as well as Anthony's style and content--in any >> way American-centric....) >> >> >> >> Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we >> read events rather than in the events themselves, Anthony. To me, the >> situation in and around Washington DC looks very much like the situation in >> and around Beijing in May1989. As in DC, Beijing had laws preventing the >> entry of the armed forces other than those of the Beijing Military >> Region into the city (the exclusion laws were actually written into the >> Chinese constitution by Mao, who was always afraid of powerful military >> opponents like Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao). The Beijing Military Region, >> however, was loyal to the people of Beijing and to the General Secretary >> Zhao Ziyang, and they opposed to a coup. So, as in DC, the "martial law" >> forces were called to the city perimeter where they halted for several >> weeks. As in DC, the provenance of the "martial law" forces were quite >> mysterious--they didn't carry insignia and it later turned out that these >> were forces personally loyal to two PLA warlords, the brothers Yang Baibing >> and Yang Shangkun. As in DC, there were different waves of demonstrators >> inside the city: someone put up artworks in the square (as the mayor did in >> DC this morning) and others told people to go home and organize and not >> stay to be massacred. And then, almost exactly thirty-one years ago, the >> unmarked shock troops went in shooting, and at least a thousand people >> died. I hope that part is NOT like DC, but so far the "American >> exceptionalists" have been proved wrong on every single detail. >> >> >> >> Clorox on cloth? Gadzooks, Peg. Don't Americans have real N-94s yet? At >> the very height of the Daegu outbreak people had to resort to cloth masks >> (I don't think anybody used Clorox, though). Then the government brought in >> a rationing system so that health care workers could get PPE, and the >> extras are still rationed according to the numbers on registration cards: >> we go to the pharmacy twice a week to pick up our ration of three masks. No >> one is allowed onto a bus, a subway, or into a public building without one. >> Yesterday I went hiking for two hours and whenever I saw someone coming >> towards me they hastily put on a mask and bowed. >> >> >> >> (Do you know, the largest factory for PPE in the USA, and possibly the >> world until recently, is 3M in Minneapolis? There's a solid >> transitional demand for a general strike--Masks for all! Occupy 3M!) >> >> >> >> David Kellogg >> >> Sangmyung University >> >> >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Q7oZGoNWEy60zzeOFIfsgt_6Erpa7fGaIhpywPZMHemnVMred9Y8rU9DXjkUqEwIN719fw$ >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Q7oZGoNWEy60zzeOFIfsgt_6Erpa7fGaIhpywPZMHemnVMred9Y8rU9DXjkUqExOP-xwwQ$ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:30 PM Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >> Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know >> of both. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach wrote: >> >> Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive >> in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are >> never fixed given that as participants encounter new >> contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. >> This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms >> as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. >> >> >> >> Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires >> ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives >> given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t >> necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be >> blocked by a timid political leadership >> >> . >> >> >> >> For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: >> >> Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: >> Foundations, findings and future challenges. *Educational Research >> Review, 5*, 1?24. >> >> Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions >> for expansivelearning and transformative agency. *Journal of the >> Learning Sciences, 25*(4), 599-633. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and >> it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of >> rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the >> same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. >> --------------------------------------------------- >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Q7oZGoNWEy60zzeOFIfsgt_6Erpa7fGaIhpywPZMHemnVMred9Y8rU9DXjkUqEySzpJY3g$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200607/8a974bf6/attachment.html From glassman.13@osu.edu Sun Jun 7 05:38:04 2020 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 12:38:04 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well founded social science. What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Bill Kerr Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis hi Anthony, I watched both videos. Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not disproportionate murder of black people. Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still not widely understood. Thank you On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate to! What a year so far. I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone potentially curious: First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!X79A58M3UoW7fGu2BtkBA-vXTjY5FKjx5qyUa3XjVaKZNec1vcKB4Gc3XRbZr_dXoSZr7A$ featuring Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!X79A58M3UoW7fGu2BtkBA-vXTjY5FKjx5qyUa3XjVaKZNec1vcKB4Gc3XRbZr_dDKWQsIw$ (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against the headwinds a fair amount. Thank you, Anthony On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them here and in the streets for a little while still. To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, shouldn't it? I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might appreciate. We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is just one. Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can rationalize their dear riot gear. Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in there? I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are protesting? There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to heavy. Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more of it. My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right to love one another. That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or right. That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us doesn't. I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. Thank you all in advance for your contributions. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 4:35 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis [EXTERNAL] Peg- N95 masks are available in various parts of the country. If you have an address we could round up some and send them xpress. Give us stuck at homes something to do. mike On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:14 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: Right, David, we have always known our homemade masks are NOT good in that direction. I am glad you all have government provided via pharmacy and ration ones that are good in both directions. Our home made ones are not good the wearer?s personal health, just useful for public health. So far, we have nothing for personal health except for after-the-fact of infection and that only if we are lucky to get the manifestations that we can medicate at home or that we can get to a hospital with the resources we need for whatever Covid puts on our plate. AOC is an amazing woman. She has control of the facts on the ground and the differences among masks too. She knows the ones medical people need are two-way and better but she also recognizes the need for making and wearing and increasing the quality and quantity of our home-made ones. I put it down to her bartender training but others put it down to a super government policy education and dedication. I just got off the streets of Saturday protests in DC. Media still having trouble figuring out how come there are so many different marches that at the same time are all one. Lots of people have given themselves sun up to sun down time frames and a side job of visiting as many different marches as they can. Some incredibly snooty DC restaurants started to ?bring out:? They make their fancy food and bring it out ? more or less forcing it for free on whoever is passing by! I think some protesters modified their plans to pass by that restaurant. A bunch of us just wore out a little after 5, but, there seemed to be a new and better shift coming on. Worst violence during the day so far was to our hearts when we couldn?t hug and kiss toddlers and pre-schoolers we knew and they just didn?t like it at all that we could be so rotten to their sweet selves. Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 5:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis Thanks, Peg. N.B., though, the WHO now defunded by the USA but fortunately refunded by the PRC, has just said that masks ARE for healthy people. You remember that at the beginning of the pandemic, there was a "Western" view of transmission (doctors in the US and Europe) and an Eastern view (here in Korea and China) The "Western" view was all about droplets, which adhered to surfaces and then were transmitted to eyes, nose, and mouth by unwashed hands and face touching. The "Eastern" view was all about aerosols, which hang in the air and doesn't adhere to a surface at all. As Michael Osterholm--another Minnesotan!--explained, an aerosol is what you see in a sunbeam and also what you smell when you stand two aisles away from the perfume department. Now the science is in--it's an aerosol, and a good N-94 (we call them K-95s) will protect you, not just from the people you are talking to but from folks who are two aisles away. It will even protect your lungs and nose from the tear gas if it's tight enough, though you will still need eye protection. I use one with an elastic band that bypasses my ears and a clip that holds the elastic behind my head. Trump says: "Take it!" (hydroxychloroquine, which has zero prophylactic vaue but will exascerbate your heart condition). Ocasio-Cortez says, "Wear it!" (Hey, I wonder who's right...?) Anthony's right to warn against American-centrism: it is examples like Korea that show the world that the pandemic doesn't have to go the American way. We had NO lockdown, and our schools are up and running again (sort of--one of our Vygotsky group just had her school closed because a NEIGHBORING school had a kid test positive and the teachers are worried that kids from the two schools play and study together after hours). We just test and trace--and trust, too, because you really have to trust your neighbors and your government to do the kind of tracking we do over here. It's also worth remembering what Korea had to do to get here--for a whole year in 2017-2018, there were weekly street demos to remove the previous malignancy (a hard-right government that had seized power through a massive disinformation campaign in a very tightly contested election). That president didn't golf or tweet, but she did watch the sinking of a ferry with more than three hundred high school kids below decks on the TV while having her hair done.... Henry--I don't think I ever used the phrase "the brutality of the Chinese regime". Actually, the Chinese regime was and is neither more nor less brutal than any other. The whole point I was trying to make, actually, was the the legitimate Chinese regime under Zhao Ziyang and Hu Qili had to be removed by a military coup in order crush the demonstrations, and even the legitimate military authorities had to be bypassed in order to open fire on ordinary people. Unless we understand that, we get a kind of Chinese exceptionalism when we compare Beijing 1989 with what happened later that year in Romania, and the following year in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union generally.The troops didn't open fire there, but in Beijing they did. Why? Well, I suppose that it was because the PLA has been and to some extent still is an army based on sympathetic warlords and local bandits. That seems a trivial reason, but combined with the mistaken attempts by student leaders to eliminate the particpation of the working class in the national movement, it was decisive. I don't mean to sucker-punch this thread, but for those like Henry who are considering the social democratic alternative, I would like to draw attention to the link below, a critique of a recent book using social democracy as a model for understanding, among other things, progressive education and Vygotskyan theory. It's also worth considering the abject failure of precisely those governments run by the social democrats to cope with Covid-19: Spain and Sweden. Even in Italy, the UK, and Brazil you have far-right governments which are resting on a health system built up by social democracy and you see very similar failures. Social democracy rests on the economic "successes" of capitalism (specifically: imperalism, where capital is exported for profits that can be used to buy off the working class). Social democracy then tries to tinker with the crises, trying to attentuate it with Adam Smith's triumvirate of wages, rents, and interests. There are, of course, limits to any analogy, but if you think of a health crisis as a developmental crisis writ large, you can see why the Chinese model was so much better. Imagine a child who is undergoing a crisis at three or at thirteen. You don't treat the crisis at three by injecting the child with ritalin (although, you know, there WAS a US drug company that wanted to market anti-depressants to children using Eeyore and drugs for ADHD using Tigger!). You shouldn't try to treat the crisis at thirteen by fiddling with the child's new hormone balance. Mutatis mutandis, that would be like taking hydroxychloroquine instead of wearing a mask. (More discussion and even more farfetched analogies in the article linked below!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University Book Review: 'Fees, Beets, and Music: A critical perusal of Critical Pedagogy and Marx, Vygotsky and Freire: Phenomenal forms and educational action research in Mind Culture and Activity https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1745847__;!!Mih3wA!X79A58M3UoW7fGu2BtkBA-vXTjY5FKjx5qyUa3XjVaKZNec1vcKB4Gc3XRbZr_eVYxUhbQ$ Some free e-prints available at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/QBBGIZNKAHPMM4ZVCWVX/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1745847__;Lw!!Mih3wA!X79A58M3UoW7fGu2BtkBA-vXTjY5FKjx5qyUa3XjVaKZNec1vcKB4Gc3XRbZr_cg25UKog$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!X79A58M3UoW7fGu2BtkBA-vXTjY5FKjx5qyUa3XjVaKZNec1vcKB4Gc3XRbZr_f_VgsZmg$ On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 11:35 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: Sorry, but I seem to have misled you about masks here, David. Wouldn?t want people to think it?s a good idea to pour bleach on cloth and wear it! (Apparently some people, in this country at least, are using bleach on their skin or on their food; wouldn?t like to suggest such dangerous practices.) Our homemade masks are mostly three layers of cotton, some with pouches for filters if someone has or wants one. They are intended to be worn by those of us who may unknowingly be asymptomatic and undiagnosed but still infected with SARS-CoV-2 and able to spread it easily to those we are chanting and walking and kneeling and standing with. We have a continuing very poor diagnostic testing program in most places in this country. The masks are to lessen the danger an individual MIGHT BE to public health rather than a personal health measure way to protect an individual from getting the virus. Every night, we soak and wash whatever masks we have custody of that have been used ? soak in detergent and bleach and rinse well, but some odor of bleach remains, and leave it for a few days before recycling it. Those who wear masks like the N-94 are people who need to be protected by the mask the wearer from getting the virus as they go into spaces recognized as having infected people likely to spread the infection. Of course, as for many things, we do not have a well-functioning public health system so the N-94 type masks are expensive and in short supply in many places. On the other hand, though, sometimes rising to the concrete of homemade masks (needed, yes, but liked because they are so damned whimsical) and the making of them seem to yield confidence, camaraderie, apprenticeships for public engagement and purpose. It?s a bonus that what the virus pandemic has demanded now often plays a part in people learning and using anti-fascist tools against police violence and government misdirection. BTW, what particularly struck me about the DC mayor?s apparent acceptance of BLM in the street art and new street name, is the immediate challenge from DC BLM and, as immediately, the mayor acknowledging that the symbols do not mask the gap in actions that BLM demands! Could this be a dialectic or what? There are about a dozen well sponsored and organized protests in DC today ? reduces worries by some of us about severe dangers to the big number of us that could be used for target practice in one place. BTW: I appreciate getting news updates I learn from (recently off the top of my head) from Carol MacDonald, David Preiss, David Kellog ?). It is different than published material and fills a different function for me. Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 5:11 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis (Is this thread American-centric? If so, 'twere a grievous fault. But grievously hath Haydi answered it--I don't think anybody can consider his dense, encyclopaedic blocks of text--the polar opposite of Anthony's American-centric orthography as well as Anthony's style and content--in any way American-centric....) Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we read events rather than in the events themselves, Anthony. To me, the situation in and around Washington DC looks very much like the situation in and around Beijing in May1989. As in DC, Beijing had laws preventing the entry of the armed forces other than those of the Beijing Military Region into the city (the exclusion laws were actually written into the Chinese constitution by Mao, who was always afraid of powerful military opponents like Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao). The Beijing Military Region, however, was loyal to the people of Beijing and to the General Secretary Zhao Ziyang, and they opposed to a coup. So, as in DC, the "martial law" forces were called to the city perimeter where they halted for several weeks. As in DC, the provenance of the "martial law" forces were quite mysterious--they didn't carry insignia and it later turned out that these were forces personally loyal to two PLA warlords, the brothers Yang Baibing and Yang Shangkun. As in DC, there were different waves of demonstrators inside the city: someone put up artworks in the square (as the mayor did in DC this morning) and others told people to go home and organize and not stay to be massacred. And then, almost exactly thirty-one years ago, the unmarked shock troops went in shooting, and at least a thousand people died. I hope that part is NOT like DC, but so far the "American exceptionalists" have been proved wrong on every single detail. Clorox on cloth? Gadzooks, Peg. Don't Americans have real N-94s yet? At the very height of the Daegu outbreak people had to resort to cloth masks (I don't think anybody used Clorox, though). Then the government brought in a rationing system so that health care workers could get PPE, and the extras are still rationed according to the numbers on registration cards: we go to the pharmacy twice a week to pick up our ration of three masks. No one is allowed onto a bus, a subway, or into a public building without one. Yesterday I went hiking for two hours and whenever I saw someone coming towards me they hastily put on a mask and bowed. (Do you know, the largest factory for PPE in the USA, and possibly the world until recently, is 3M in Minneapolis? There's a solid transitional demand for a general strike--Masks for all! Occupy 3M!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!X79A58M3UoW7fGu2BtkBA-vXTjY5FKjx5qyUa3XjVaKZNec1vcKB4Gc3XRbZr_e3YmAHaQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!X79A58M3UoW7fGu2BtkBA-vXTjY5FKjx5qyUa3XjVaKZNec1vcKB4Gc3XRbZr_f_VgsZmg$ On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:30 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know of both. On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach > wrote: Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are never fixed given that as participants encounter new contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be blocked by a timid political leadership. For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: Foundations, findings and future challenges. Educational Research Review, 5, 1?24. Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions for expansivelearning and transformative agency. Journal of the Learning Sciences, 25(4), 599-633. -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!X79A58M3UoW7fGu2BtkBA-vXTjY5FKjx5qyUa3XjVaKZNec1vcKB4Gc3XRbZr_dviK-6fw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200607/48c1f801/attachment.html From rein.raud@tlu.ee Sun Jun 7 06:24:49 2020 From: rein.raud@tlu.ee (Rein Raud) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 16:24:49 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99 a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89- E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101 d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <0E3EF4BE-A5B1-4678-BB96-A7F818694F6A@tlu.ee> To be even more precise: according to a study published in the PNAS, young black nonsuidical unarmed men are 13.68 times more likely to be killed by the police than white men with otherwise same characteristics. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.pnas.org/content/117/3/1263__;!!Mih3wA!WSiZj7bL_5FE_GE5yJ0kGpmlUq7ZaDHRoZaYvLcbbAxJN-vn1RYt2ffFF0WVF52Wpe7V2w$ With best wishes, RR ********************************************** Rein Raud Professor of Asian and Cultural Studies, Tallinn University Uus-Sadama 5, Tallinn 10120 Estonia https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.reinraud.com__;!!Mih3wA!WSiZj7bL_5FE_GE5yJ0kGpmlUq7ZaDHRoZaYvLcbbAxJN-vn1RYt2ffFF0WVF53Iux_xLQ$ ?Meaning in Action: Outline of an Integral?Theory of Culture?(Polity 2016) ?Practices of Selfhood? (with Zygmunt?Bauman, Polity 2015) > On 7 Jun 2020, at 15:38, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. > > I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well founded social science. > > What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. > > These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. > > Michael > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Bill Kerr > Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > hi Anthony, > I watched both videos. > > Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not disproportionate murder of black people. > > Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. > > There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still not widely understood. > > Thank you > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate to! What a year so far. > > I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone potentially curious: > First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!WSiZj7bL_5FE_GE5yJ0kGpmlUq7ZaDHRoZaYvLcbbAxJN-vn1RYt2ffFF0WVF53IZ8CEbQ$ featuring Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) > > and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!WSiZj7bL_5FE_GE5yJ0kGpmlUq7ZaDHRoZaYvLcbbAxJN-vn1RYt2ffFF0WVF51Zd45_XA$ (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. > > Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against the headwinds a fair amount. > > Thank you, > > Anthony > > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, > > I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them here and in the streets for a little while still. > > To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, shouldn't it? > > I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? > > I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. > > NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! > > Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might appreciate. > > We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is just one. > > Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can rationalize their dear riot gear. > > Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? > > I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. > > There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in there? > > I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. > > I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are protesting? > > There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." > > I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. > > My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to heavy. > > Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more of it. > > My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. > > The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. > > I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? > > The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right to love one another. > > That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or right. > > That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us doesn't. > > I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. > > Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. > > I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. > > Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. > > Thank you all in advance for your contributions. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > > Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 4:35 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > [EXTERNAL] > > Peg- > > N95 masks are available in various parts of the country. > If you have an address we could round up some and send them xpress. > Give us stuck at homes something to do. > mike > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:14 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: > Right, David, we have always known our homemade masks are NOT good in that direction. I am glad you all have government provided via pharmacy and ration ones that are good in both directions. Our home made ones are not good the wearer?s personal health, just useful for public health. > > So far, we have nothing for personal health except for after-the-fact of infection and that only if we are lucky to get the manifestations that we can medicate at home or that we can get to a hospital with the resources we need for whatever Covid puts on our plate. > > AOC is an amazing woman. She has control of the facts on the ground and the differences among masks too. She knows the ones medical people need are two-way and better but she also recognizes the need for making and wearing and increasing the quality and quantity of our home-made ones. I put it down to her bartender training but others put it down to a super government policy education and dedication. > > > > I just got off the streets of Saturday protests in DC. Media still having trouble figuring out how come there are so many different marches that at the same time are all one. Lots of people have given themselves sun up to sun down time frames and a side job of visiting as many different marches as they can. Some incredibly snooty DC restaurants started to ?bring out:? They make their fancy food and bring it out ? more or less forcing it for free on whoever is passing by! I think some protesters modified their plans to pass by that restaurant. > > A bunch of us just wore out a little after 5, but, there seemed to be a new and better shift coming on. Worst violence during the day so far was to our hearts when we couldn?t hug and kiss toddlers and pre-schoolers we knew and they just didn?t like it at all that we could be so rotten to their sweet selves. > > Peg > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu ] On Behalf Of David Kellogg > Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 5:18 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > Thanks, Peg. N.B., though, the WHO now defunded by the USA but fortunately refunded by the PRC, has just said that masks ARE for healthy people. You remember that at the beginning of the pandemic, there was a "Western" view of transmission (doctors in the US and Europe) and an Eastern view (here in Korea and China) The "Western" view was all about droplets, which adhered to surfaces and then were transmitted to eyes, nose, and mouth by unwashed hands and face touching. The "Eastern" view was all about aerosols, which hang in the air and doesn't adhere to a surface at all. As Michael Osterholm--another Minnesotan!--explained, an aerosol is what you see in a sunbeam and also what you smell when you stand two aisles away from the perfume department. Now the science is in--it's an aerosol, and a good N-94 (we call them K-95s) will protect you, not just from the people you are talking to but from folks who are two aisles away. It will even protect your lungs and nose from the tear gas if it's tight enough, though you will still need eye protection. I use one with an elastic band that bypasses my ears and a clip that holds the elastic behind my head. Trump says: "Take it!" (hydroxychloroquine, which has zero prophylactic vaue but will exascerbate your heart condition). Ocasio-Cortez says, "Wear it!" (Hey, I wonder who's right...?) > > > > Anthony's right to warn against American-centrism: it is examples like Korea that show the world that the pandemic doesn't have to go the American way. We had NO lockdown, and our schools are up and running again (sort of--one of our Vygotsky group just had her school closed because a NEIGHBORING school had a kid test positive and the teachers are worried that kids from the two schools play and study together after hours). We just test and trace--and trust, too, because you really have to trust your neighbors and your government to do the kind of tracking we do over here. It's also worth remembering what Korea had to do to get here--for a whole year in 2017-2018, there were weekly street demos to remove the previous malignancy (a hard-right government that had seized power through a massive disinformation campaign in a very tightly contested election). That president didn't golf or tweet, but she did watch the sinking of a ferry with more than three hundred high school kids below decks on the TV while having her hair done.... > > > > Henry--I don't think I ever used the phrase "the brutality of the Chinese regime". Actually, the Chinese regime was and is neither more nor less brutal than any other. The whole point I was trying to make, actually, was the the legitimate Chinese regime under Zhao Ziyang and Hu Qili had to be removed by a military coup in order crush the demonstrations, and even the legitimate military authorities had to be bypassed in order to open fire on ordinary people. Unless we understand that, we get a kind of Chinese exceptionalism when we compare Beijing 1989 with what happened later that year in Romania, and the following year in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union generally.The troops didn't open fire there, but in Beijing they did. Why? Well, I suppose that it was because the PLA has been and to some extent still is an army based on sympathetic warlords and local bandits. That seems a trivial reason, but combined with the mistaken attempts by student leaders to eliminate the particpation of the working class in the national movement, it was decisive. > > > > I don't mean to sucker-punch this thread, but for those like Henry who are considering the social democratic alternative, I would like to draw attention to the link below, a critique of a recent book using social democracy as a model for understanding, among other things, progressive education and Vygotskyan theory. It's also worth considering the abject failure of precisely those governments run by the social democrats to cope with Covid-19: Spain and Sweden. Even in Italy, the UK, and Brazil you have far-right governments which are resting on a health system built up by social democracy and you see very similar failures. Social democracy rests on the economic "successes" of capitalism (specifically: imperalism, where capital is exported for profits that can be used to buy off the working class). Social democracy then tries to tinker with the crises, trying to attentuate it with Adam Smith's triumvirate of wages, rents, and interests. > > > > There are, of course, limits to any analogy, but if you think of a health crisis as a developmental crisis writ large, you can see why the Chinese model was so much better. Imagine a child who is undergoing a crisis at three or at thirteen. You don't treat the crisis at three by injecting the child with ritalin (although, you know, there WAS a US drug company that wanted to market anti-depressants to children using Eeyore and drugs for ADHD using Tigger!). You shouldn't try to treat the crisis at thirteen by fiddling with the child's new hormone balance. Mutatis mutandis, that would be like taking hydroxychloroquine instead of wearing a mask. > > > > (More discussion and even more farfetched analogies in the article linked below!) > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > Book Review: 'Fees, Beets, and Music: A critical perusal of Critical Pedagogy and Marx, Vygotsky and Freire: Phenomenal forms and educational action research > > in Mind Culture and Activity > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1745847__;!!Mih3wA!WSiZj7bL_5FE_GE5yJ0kGpmlUq7ZaDHRoZaYvLcbbAxJN-vn1RYt2ffFF0WVF510vIhsbw$ > > > Some free e-prints available at: > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/QBBGIZNKAHPMM4ZVCWVX/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1745847__;Lw!!Mih3wA!WSiZj7bL_5FE_GE5yJ0kGpmlUq7ZaDHRoZaYvLcbbAxJN-vn1RYt2ffFF0WVF52TbmngzQ$ > > > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WSiZj7bL_5FE_GE5yJ0kGpmlUq7ZaDHRoZaYvLcbbAxJN-vn1RYt2ffFF0WVF51kXBW5QQ$ > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 11:35 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: > > Sorry, but I seem to have misled you about masks here, David. Wouldn?t want people to think it?s a good idea to pour bleach on cloth and wear it! (Apparently some people, in this country at least, are using bleach on their skin or on their food; wouldn?t like to suggest such dangerous practices.) > > Our homemade masks are mostly three layers of cotton, some with pouches for filters if someone has or wants one. They are intended to be worn by those of us who may unknowingly be asymptomatic and undiagnosed but still infected with SARS-CoV-2 and able to spread it easily to those we are chanting and walking and kneeling and standing with. We have a continuing very poor diagnostic testing program in most places in this country. The masks are to lessen the danger an individual MIGHT BE to public health rather than a personal health measure way to protect an individual from getting the virus. Every night, we soak and wash whatever masks we have custody of that have been used ? soak in detergent and bleach and rinse well, but some odor of bleach remains, and leave it for a few days before recycling it. Those who wear masks like the N-94 are people who need to be protected by the mask the wearer from getting the virus as they go into spaces recognized as having infected people likely to spread the infection. > > Of course, as for many things, we do not have a well-functioning public health system so the N-94 type masks are expensive and in short supply in many places. > > On the other hand, though, sometimes rising to the concrete of homemade masks (needed, yes, but liked because they are so damned whimsical) and the making of them seem to yield confidence, camaraderie, apprenticeships for public engagement and purpose. It?s a bonus that what the virus pandemic has demanded now often plays a part in people learning and using anti-fascist tools against police violence and government misdirection. > > > > BTW, what particularly struck me about the DC mayor?s apparent acceptance of BLM in the street art and new street name, is the immediate challenge from DC BLM and, as immediately, the mayor acknowledging that the symbols do not mask the gap in actions that BLM demands! Could this be a dialectic or what? > > There are about a dozen well sponsored and organized protests in DC today ? reduces worries by some of us about severe dangers to the big number of us that could be used for target practice in one place. > > > > BTW: I appreciate getting news updates I learn from (recently off the top of my head) from Carol MacDonald, David Preiss, David Kellog ?). It is different than published material and fills a different function for me. > > Peg > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu ] On Behalf Of David Kellogg > Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 5:11 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > (Is this thread American-centric? If so, 'twere a grievous fault. But grievously hath Haydi answered it--I don't think anybody can consider his dense, encyclopaedic blocks of text--the polar opposite of Anthony's American-centric orthography as well as Anthony's style and content--in any way American-centric....) > > > > Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we read events rather than in the events themselves, Anthony. To me, the situation in and around Washington DC looks very much like the situation in and around Beijing in May1989. As in DC, Beijing had laws preventing the entry of the armed forces other than those of the Beijing Military Region into the city (the exclusion laws were actually written into the Chinese constitution by Mao, who was always afraid of powerful military opponents like Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao). The Beijing Military Region, however, was loyal to the people of Beijing and to the General Secretary Zhao Ziyang, and they opposed to a coup. So, as in DC, the "martial law" forces were called to the city perimeter where they halted for several weeks. As in DC, the provenance of the "martial law" forces were quite mysterious--they didn't carry insignia and it later turned out that these were forces personally loyal to two PLA warlords, the brothers Yang Baibing and Yang Shangkun. As in DC, there were different waves of demonstrators inside the city: someone put up artworks in the square (as the mayor did in DC this morning) and others told people to go home and organize and not stay to be massacred. And then, almost exactly thirty-one years ago, the unmarked shock troops went in shooting, and at least a thousand people died. I hope that part is NOT like DC, but so far the "American exceptionalists" have been proved wrong on every single detail. > > > > Clorox on cloth? Gadzooks, Peg. Don't Americans have real N-94s yet? At the very height of the Daegu outbreak people had to resort to cloth masks (I don't think anybody used Clorox, though). Then the government brought in a rationing system so that health care workers could get PPE, and the extras are still rationed according to the numbers on registration cards: we go to the pharmacy twice a week to pick up our ration of three masks. No one is allowed onto a bus, a subway, or into a public building without one. Yesterday I went hiking for two hours and whenever I saw someone coming towards me they hastily put on a mask and bowed. > > > > (Do you know, the largest factory for PPE in the USA, and possibly the world until recently, is 3M in Minneapolis? There's a solid transitional demand for a general strike--Masks for all! Occupy 3M!) > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WSiZj7bL_5FE_GE5yJ0kGpmlUq7ZaDHRoZaYvLcbbAxJN-vn1RYt2ffFF0WVF50FfcZnHg$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WSiZj7bL_5FE_GE5yJ0kGpmlUq7ZaDHRoZaYvLcbbAxJN-vn1RYt2ffFF0WVF51kXBW5QQ$ > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:30 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know of both. > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach > wrote: > > Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are never fixed given that as participants encounter new contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. > > > > Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be blocked by a timid political leadership . > > > > For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: > > Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: Foundations, findings and future challenges. Educational Research Review, 5, 1?24. > > Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions for expansivelearning and transformative agency. Journal of the Learning Sciences, 25(4), 599-633. > > > > > > -- > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!WSiZj7bL_5FE_GE5yJ0kGpmlUq7ZaDHRoZaYvLcbbAxJN-vn1RYt2ffFF0WVF52EskONgg$ > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu . > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200607/02295fe7/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Sun Jun 7 07:03:17 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 09:03:17 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: I heard the Glenn Loury and John McWhorter video rather differently, Bill. Their principal objection to the New York Times 1619 podcast is, as I understand it, that it presents slavery as the single factor explaining the situation of African Americans today. The story, they point out, is more complex than that, and much has happened in the US since slavery was abolished. One example of the complexity that they discuss is indeed the unintended negative consequences of desegregation. Young African American kids found themselves in school alongside white kids and teachers with engrained racist attitudes, and understandably some of them simply lost interest. Thriving black business communities dwindled when white businesses could attract black customers. I listened to the podcast back in October. That now seems a lifetime away and my memory may be faulty. But I don?t recall that the principal message was that slavery is *the* explanation of race in the US today. I took it to be that slavery had been at the core of the creation of the nation. The US was founded not with the declaration of independence in 1776 but when the first enslaved Africans arrived in 1619. The institution of slavery enabled the colonies to grow and unify to form a nation, and other institutions built upon and presumed this foundation. Those facts, the podcast argues, had ramifications that have continued through to today. Nonetheless, I found the Loury and McWhorter discussion very interesting and I?m going to make time to listen to the interview with Coleman Hughes. Martin > On Jun 7, 2020, at 2:59 AM, Bill Kerr wrote: > > hi Anthony, > I watched both videos. > > Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not disproportionate murder of black people. > > Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. > > There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still not widely understood. > > Thank you > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate to! What a year so far. > > I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone potentially curious: > First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!TSqR0jpMxNrb04CH-yZ6y6iW8HqhDGA_GaObPxgWbWD3vhlORFKwZxjX7LbLk_fRxM108Q$ featuring Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) > > and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!TSqR0jpMxNrb04CH-yZ6y6iW8HqhDGA_GaObPxgWbWD3vhlORFKwZxjX7LbLk_cEkfQo-w$ (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. > > Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against the headwinds a fair amount. > > Thank you, > > Anthony > > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, > > I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them here and in the streets for a little while still. > > To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, shouldn't it? > > I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? > > I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. > > NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! > > Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might appreciate. > > We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is just one. > > Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can rationalize their dear riot gear. > > Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? > > I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. > > There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in there? > > I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. > > I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are protesting? > > There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." > > I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. > > My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to heavy. > > Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more of it. > > My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. > > The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. > > I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? > > The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right to love one another. > > That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or right. > > That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us doesn't. > > I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. > > Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. > > I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. > > Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. > > Thank you all in advance for your contributions. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > > Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 4:35 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > [EXTERNAL] > > Peg- > > N95 masks are available in various parts of the country. > If you have an address we could round up some and send them xpress. > Give us stuck at homes something to do. > mike > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:14 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: > Right, David, we have always known our homemade masks are NOT good in that direction. I am glad you all have government provided via pharmacy and ration ones that are good in both directions. Our home made ones are not good the wearer?s personal health, just useful for public health. > > So far, we have nothing for personal health except for after-the-fact of infection and that only if we are lucky to get the manifestations that we can medicate at home or that we can get to a hospital with the resources we need for whatever Covid puts on our plate. > > AOC is an amazing woman. She has control of the facts on the ground and the differences among masks too. She knows the ones medical people need are two-way and better but she also recognizes the need for making and wearing and increasing the quality and quantity of our home-made ones. I put it down to her bartender training but others put it down to a super government policy education and dedication. > > > > I just got off the streets of Saturday protests in DC. Media still having trouble figuring out how come there are so many different marches that at the same time are all one. Lots of people have given themselves sun up to sun down time frames and a side job of visiting as many different marches as they can. Some incredibly snooty DC restaurants started to ?bring out:? They make their fancy food and bring it out ? more or less forcing it for free on whoever is passing by! I think some protesters modified their plans to pass by that restaurant. > > A bunch of us just wore out a little after 5, but, there seemed to be a new and better shift coming on. Worst violence during the day so far was to our hearts when we couldn?t hug and kiss toddlers and pre-schoolers we knew and they just didn?t like it at all that we could be so rotten to their sweet selves. > > Peg > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu ] On Behalf Of David Kellogg > Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 5:18 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > Thanks, Peg. N.B., though, the WHO now defunded by the USA but fortunately refunded by the PRC, has just said that masks ARE for healthy people. You remember that at the beginning of the pandemic, there was a "Western" view of transmission (doctors in the US and Europe) and an Eastern view (here in Korea and China) The "Western" view was all about droplets, which adhered to surfaces and then were transmitted to eyes, nose, and mouth by unwashed hands and face touching. The "Eastern" view was all about aerosols, which hang in the air and doesn't adhere to a surface at all. As Michael Osterholm--another Minnesotan!--explained, an aerosol is what you see in a sunbeam and also what you smell when you stand two aisles away from the perfume department. Now the science is in--it's an aerosol, and a good N-94 (we call them K-95s) will protect you, not just from the people you are talking to but from folks who are two aisles away. It will even protect your lungs and nose from the tear gas if it's tight enough, though you will still need eye protection. I use one with an elastic band that bypasses my ears and a clip that holds the elastic behind my head. Trump says: "Take it!" (hydroxychloroquine, which has zero prophylactic vaue but will exascerbate your heart condition). Ocasio-Cortez says, "Wear it!" (Hey, I wonder who's right...?) > > > > Anthony's right to warn against American-centrism: it is examples like Korea that show the world that the pandemic doesn't have to go the American way. We had NO lockdown, and our schools are up and running again (sort of--one of our Vygotsky group just had her school closed because a NEIGHBORING school had a kid test positive and the teachers are worried that kids from the two schools play and study together after hours). We just test and trace--and trust, too, because you really have to trust your neighbors and your government to do the kind of tracking we do over here. It's also worth remembering what Korea had to do to get here--for a whole year in 2017-2018, there were weekly street demos to remove the previous malignancy (a hard-right government that had seized power through a massive disinformation campaign in a very tightly contested election). That president didn't golf or tweet, but she did watch the sinking of a ferry with more than three hundred high school kids below decks on the TV while having her hair done.... > > > > Henry--I don't think I ever used the phrase "the brutality of the Chinese regime". Actually, the Chinese regime was and is neither more nor less brutal than any other. The whole point I was trying to make, actually, was the the legitimate Chinese regime under Zhao Ziyang and Hu Qili had to be removed by a military coup in order crush the demonstrations, and even the legitimate military authorities had to be bypassed in order to open fire on ordinary people. Unless we understand that, we get a kind of Chinese exceptionalism when we compare Beijing 1989 with what happened later that year in Romania, and the following year in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union generally.The troops didn't open fire there, but in Beijing they did. Why? Well, I suppose that it was because the PLA has been and to some extent still is an army based on sympathetic warlords and local bandits. That seems a trivial reason, but combined with the mistaken attempts by student leaders to eliminate the particpation of the working class in the national movement, it was decisive. > > > > I don't mean to sucker-punch this thread, but for those like Henry who are considering the social democratic alternative, I would like to draw attention to the link below, a critique of a recent book using social democracy as a model for understanding, among other things, progressive education and Vygotskyan theory. It's also worth considering the abject failure of precisely those governments run by the social democrats to cope with Covid-19: Spain and Sweden. Even in Italy, the UK, and Brazil you have far-right governments which are resting on a health system built up by social democracy and you see very similar failures. Social democracy rests on the economic "successes" of capitalism (specifically: imperalism, where capital is exported for profits that can be used to buy off the working class). Social democracy then tries to tinker with the crises, trying to attentuate it with Adam Smith's triumvirate of wages, rents, and interests. > > > > There are, of course, limits to any analogy, but if you think of a health crisis as a developmental crisis writ large, you can see why the Chinese model was so much better. Imagine a child who is undergoing a crisis at three or at thirteen. You don't treat the crisis at three by injecting the child with ritalin (although, you know, there WAS a US drug company that wanted to market anti-depressants to children using Eeyore and drugs for ADHD using Tigger!). You shouldn't try to treat the crisis at thirteen by fiddling with the child's new hormone balance. Mutatis mutandis, that would be like taking hydroxychloroquine instead of wearing a mask. > > > > (More discussion and even more farfetched analogies in the article linked below!) > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > Book Review: 'Fees, Beets, and Music: A critical perusal of Critical Pedagogy and Marx, Vygotsky and Freire: Phenomenal forms and educational action research > > in Mind Culture and Activity > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1745847__;!!Mih3wA!TSqR0jpMxNrb04CH-yZ6y6iW8HqhDGA_GaObPxgWbWD3vhlORFKwZxjX7LbLk_f3elJp0w$ > > > Some free e-prints available at: > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/QBBGIZNKAHPMM4ZVCWVX/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1745847__;Lw!!Mih3wA!TSqR0jpMxNrb04CH-yZ6y6iW8HqhDGA_GaObPxgWbWD3vhlORFKwZxjX7LbLk_fnlYy9Cg$ > > > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TSqR0jpMxNrb04CH-yZ6y6iW8HqhDGA_GaObPxgWbWD3vhlORFKwZxjX7LbLk_ecKUgz9Q$ > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 11:35 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: > > Sorry, but I seem to have misled you about masks here, David. Wouldn?t want people to think it?s a good idea to pour bleach on cloth and wear it! (Apparently some people, in this country at least, are using bleach on their skin or on their food; wouldn?t like to suggest such dangerous practices.) > > Our homemade masks are mostly three layers of cotton, some with pouches for filters if someone has or wants one. They are intended to be worn by those of us who may unknowingly be asymptomatic and undiagnosed but still infected with SARS-CoV-2 and able to spread it easily to those we are chanting and walking and kneeling and standing with. We have a continuing very poor diagnostic testing program in most places in this country. The masks are to lessen the danger an individual MIGHT BE to public health rather than a personal health measure way to protect an individual from getting the virus. Every night, we soak and wash whatever masks we have custody of that have been used ? soak in detergent and bleach and rinse well, but some odor of bleach remains, and leave it for a few days before recycling it. Those who wear masks like the N-94 are people who need to be protected by the mask the wearer from getting the virus as they go into spaces recognized as having infected people likely to spread the infection. > > Of course, as for many things, we do not have a well-functioning public health system so the N-94 type masks are expensive and in short supply in many places. > > On the other hand, though, sometimes rising to the concrete of homemade masks (needed, yes, but liked because they are so damned whimsical) and the making of them seem to yield confidence, camaraderie, apprenticeships for public engagement and purpose. It?s a bonus that what the virus pandemic has demanded now often plays a part in people learning and using anti-fascist tools against police violence and government misdirection. > > > > BTW, what particularly struck me about the DC mayor?s apparent acceptance of BLM in the street art and new street name, is the immediate challenge from DC BLM and, as immediately, the mayor acknowledging that the symbols do not mask the gap in actions that BLM demands! Could this be a dialectic or what? > > There are about a dozen well sponsored and organized protests in DC today ? reduces worries by some of us about severe dangers to the big number of us that could be used for target practice in one place. > > > > BTW: I appreciate getting news updates I learn from (recently off the top of my head) from Carol MacDonald, David Preiss, David Kellog ?). It is different than published material and fills a different function for me. > > Peg > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu ] On Behalf Of David Kellogg > Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 5:11 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > (Is this thread American-centric? If so, 'twere a grievous fault. But grievously hath Haydi answered it--I don't think anybody can consider his dense, encyclopaedic blocks of text--the polar opposite of Anthony's American-centric orthography as well as Anthony's style and content--in any way American-centric....) > > > > Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we read events rather than in the events themselves, Anthony. To me, the situation in and around Washington DC looks very much like the situation in and around Beijing in May1989. As in DC, Beijing had laws preventing the entry of the armed forces other than those of the Beijing Military Region into the city (the exclusion laws were actually written into the Chinese constitution by Mao, who was always afraid of powerful military opponents like Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao). The Beijing Military Region, however, was loyal to the people of Beijing and to the General Secretary Zhao Ziyang, and they opposed to a coup. So, as in DC, the "martial law" forces were called to the city perimeter where they halted for several weeks. As in DC, the provenance of the "martial law" forces were quite mysterious--they didn't carry insignia and it later turned out that these were forces personally loyal to two PLA warlords, the brothers Yang Baibing and Yang Shangkun. As in DC, there were different waves of demonstrators inside the city: someone put up artworks in the square (as the mayor did in DC this morning) and others told people to go home and organize and not stay to be massacred. And then, almost exactly thirty-one years ago, the unmarked shock troops went in shooting, and at least a thousand people died. I hope that part is NOT like DC, but so far the "American exceptionalists" have been proved wrong on every single detail. > > > > Clorox on cloth? Gadzooks, Peg. Don't Americans have real N-94s yet? At the very height of the Daegu outbreak people had to resort to cloth masks (I don't think anybody used Clorox, though). Then the government brought in a rationing system so that health care workers could get PPE, and the extras are still rationed according to the numbers on registration cards: we go to the pharmacy twice a week to pick up our ration of three masks. No one is allowed onto a bus, a subway, or into a public building without one. Yesterday I went hiking for two hours and whenever I saw someone coming towards me they hastily put on a mask and bowed. > > > > (Do you know, the largest factory for PPE in the USA, and possibly the world until recently, is 3M in Minneapolis? There's a solid transitional demand for a general strike--Masks for all! Occupy 3M!) > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TSqR0jpMxNrb04CH-yZ6y6iW8HqhDGA_GaObPxgWbWD3vhlORFKwZxjX7LbLk_dxJvlxXQ$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TSqR0jpMxNrb04CH-yZ6y6iW8HqhDGA_GaObPxgWbWD3vhlORFKwZxjX7LbLk_ecKUgz9Q$ > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:30 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know of both. > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach > wrote: > > Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are never fixed given that as participants encounter new contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. > > > > Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be blocked by a timid political leadership . > > > > For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: > > Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: Foundations, findings and future challenges. Educational Research Review, 5, 1?24. > > Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions for expansivelearning and transformative agency. Journal of the Learning Sciences, 25(4), 599-633. > > > > > > -- > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TSqR0jpMxNrb04CH-yZ6y6iW8HqhDGA_GaObPxgWbWD3vhlORFKwZxjX7LbLk_diiY2eqA$ > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu . > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200607/463b9317/attachment.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Sun Jun 7 09:50:11 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 16:50:11 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <26AC0B4A-A794-4FCC-8E53-2854EF4D9F0A@uio.no> Michael, I hear and share your concerns about moderation. I think one healthy way to do so is bottom up, with the collective checking on the collective. Like you coming up and speaking out the facts when these are not rightfully presented. I personally celebrate that theres is dialogue and not just a single narrative, but I find it very disturbing that someone would neglect such crucial facts of our times, whether for ignorance or worse, that there are disproportionate deaths of black men by police in the US. I find the statistics in multiple sources and I do not see how to believe or understand the claim recently made. There are calls out there to defund the police and use that funding to re-invest in more community welfare; and I think that, here, we too need to consider where to re-invest in order to re-generate an equitable and safe community where justice and rigor are among the values cherished by all members. We are studying how to integrate or relate XMCA to Cultural Praxis https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UU8TSKdA-pABIrCt4nfonvGKdFYG5ugLlRbfzIujRU9HSkzgQTVqUkZKCzW4D1g9GTQU4w$ , and that may become a good opportunity to participate in building community practices, principles and rules that allow the collective to live further. Any input or ideas on this regard are very welcome. Alfredo From: on behalf of "Glassman, Michael" Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Sunday, 7 June 2020 at 14:45 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well founded social science. What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Bill Kerr Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis hi Anthony, I watched both videos. Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not disproportionate murder of black people. Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still not widely understood. Thank you On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate to! What a year so far. I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone potentially curious: First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!UU8TSKdA-pABIrCt4nfonvGKdFYG5ugLlRbfzIujRU9HSkzgQTVqUkZKCzW4D1i_Kwtucw$ featuring Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!UU8TSKdA-pABIrCt4nfonvGKdFYG5ugLlRbfzIujRU9HSkzgQTVqUkZKCzW4D1gBLSz6rQ$ (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against the headwinds a fair amount. Thank you, Anthony On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them here and in the streets for a little while still. To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, shouldn't it? I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might appreciate. We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is just one. Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can rationalize their dear riot gear. Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in there? I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are protesting? There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to heavy. Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more of it. My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right to love one another. That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or right. That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us doesn't. I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. Thank you all in advance for your contributions. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 4:35 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis [EXTERNAL] Peg- N95 masks are available in various parts of the country. If you have an address we could round up some and send them xpress. Give us stuck at homes something to do. mike On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:14 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: Right, David, we have always known our homemade masks are NOT good in that direction. I am glad you all have government provided via pharmacy and ration ones that are good in both directions. Our home made ones are not good the wearer?s personal health, just useful for public health. So far, we have nothing for personal health except for after-the-fact of infection and that only if we are lucky to get the manifestations that we can medicate at home or that we can get to a hospital with the resources we need for whatever Covid puts on our plate. AOC is an amazing woman. She has control of the facts on the ground and the differences among masks too. She knows the ones medical people need are two-way and better but she also recognizes the need for making and wearing and increasing the quality and quantity of our home-made ones. I put it down to her bartender training but others put it down to a super government policy education and dedication. I just got off the streets of Saturday protests in DC. Media still having trouble figuring out how come there are so many different marches that at the same time are all one. Lots of people have given themselves sun up to sun down time frames and a side job of visiting as many different marches as they can. Some incredibly snooty DC restaurants started to ?bring out:? They make their fancy food and bring it out ? more or less forcing it for free on whoever is passing by! I think some protesters modified their plans to pass by that restaurant. A bunch of us just wore out a little after 5, but, there seemed to be a new and better shift coming on. Worst violence during the day so far was to our hearts when we couldn?t hug and kiss toddlers and pre-schoolers we knew and they just didn?t like it at all that we could be so rotten to their sweet selves. Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 5:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis Thanks, Peg. N.B., though, the WHO now defunded by the USA but fortunately refunded by the PRC, has just said that masks ARE for healthy people. You remember that at the beginning of the pandemic, there was a "Western" view of transmission (doctors in the US and Europe) and an Eastern view (here in Korea and China) The "Western" view was all about droplets, which adhered to surfaces and then were transmitted to eyes, nose, and mouth by unwashed hands and face touching. The "Eastern" view was all about aerosols, which hang in the air and doesn't adhere to a surface at all. As Michael Osterholm--another Minnesotan!--explained, an aerosol is what you see in a sunbeam and also what you smell when you stand two aisles away from the perfume department. Now the science is in--it's an aerosol, and a good N-94 (we call them K-95s) will protect you, not just from the people you are talking to but from folks who are two aisles away. It will even protect your lungs and nose from the tear gas if it's tight enough, though you will still need eye protection. I use one with an elastic band that bypasses my ears and a clip that holds the elastic behind my head. Trump says: "Take it!" (hydroxychloroquine, which has zero prophylactic vaue but will exascerbate your heart condition). Ocasio-Cortez says, "Wear it!" (Hey, I wonder who's right...?) Anthony's right to warn against American-centrism: it is examples like Korea that show the world that the pandemic doesn't have to go the American way. We had NO lockdown, and our schools are up and running again (sort of--one of our Vygotsky group just had her school closed because a NEIGHBORING school had a kid test positive and the teachers are worried that kids from the two schools play and study together after hours). We just test and trace--and trust, too, because you really have to trust your neighbors and your government to do the kind of tracking we do over here. It's also worth remembering what Korea had to do to get here--for a whole year in 2017-2018, there were weekly street demos to remove the previous malignancy (a hard-right government that had seized power through a massive disinformation campaign in a very tightly contested election). That president didn't golf or tweet, but she did watch the sinking of a ferry with more than three hundred high school kids below decks on the TV while having her hair done.... Henry--I don't think I ever used the phrase "the brutality of the Chinese regime". Actually, the Chinese regime was and is neither more nor less brutal than any other. The whole point I was trying to make, actually, was the the legitimate Chinese regime under Zhao Ziyang and Hu Qili had to be removed by a military coup in order crush the demonstrations, and even the legitimate military authorities had to be bypassed in order to open fire on ordinary people. Unless we understand that, we get a kind of Chinese exceptionalism when we compare Beijing 1989 with what happened later that year in Romania, and the following year in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union generally.The troops didn't open fire there, but in Beijing they did. Why? Well, I suppose that it was because the PLA has been and to some extent still is an army based on sympathetic warlords and local bandits. That seems a trivial reason, but combined with the mistaken attempts by student leaders to eliminate the particpation of the working class in the national movement, it was decisive. I don't mean to sucker-punch this thread, but for those like Henry who are considering the social democratic alternative, I would like to draw attention to the link below, a critique of a recent book using social democracy as a model for understanding, among other things, progressive education and Vygotskyan theory. It's also worth considering the abject failure of precisely those governments run by the social democrats to cope with Covid-19: Spain and Sweden. Even in Italy, the UK, and Brazil you have far-right governments which are resting on a health system built up by social democracy and you see very similar failures. Social democracy rests on the economic "successes" of capitalism (specifically: imperalism, where capital is exported for profits that can be used to buy off the working class). Social democracy then tries to tinker with the crises, trying to attentuate it with Adam Smith's triumvirate of wages, rents, and interests. There are, of course, limits to any analogy, but if you think of a health crisis as a developmental crisis writ large, you can see why the Chinese model was so much better. Imagine a child who is undergoing a crisis at three or at thirteen. You don't treat the crisis at three by injecting the child with ritalin (although, you know, there WAS a US drug company that wanted to market anti-depressants to children using Eeyore and drugs for ADHD using Tigger!). You shouldn't try to treat the crisis at thirteen by fiddling with the child's new hormone balance. Mutatis mutandis, that would be like taking hydroxychloroquine instead of wearing a mask. (More discussion and even more farfetched analogies in the article linked below!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University Book Review: 'Fees, Beets, and Music: A critical perusal of Critical Pedagogy and Marx, Vygotsky and Freire: Phenomenal forms and educational action research in Mind Culture and Activity https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1745847__;!!Mih3wA!UU8TSKdA-pABIrCt4nfonvGKdFYG5ugLlRbfzIujRU9HSkzgQTVqUkZKCzW4D1hCcG5kuA$ Some free e-prints available at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/QBBGIZNKAHPMM4ZVCWVX/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1745847__;Lw!!Mih3wA!UU8TSKdA-pABIrCt4nfonvGKdFYG5ugLlRbfzIujRU9HSkzgQTVqUkZKCzW4D1joqazQAA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UU8TSKdA-pABIrCt4nfonvGKdFYG5ugLlRbfzIujRU9HSkzgQTVqUkZKCzW4D1guKZSerA$ On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 11:35 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: Sorry, but I seem to have misled you about masks here, David. Wouldn?t want people to think it?s a good idea to pour bleach on cloth and wear it! (Apparently some people, in this country at least, are using bleach on their skin or on their food; wouldn?t like to suggest such dangerous practices.) Our homemade masks are mostly three layers of cotton, some with pouches for filters if someone has or wants one. They are intended to be worn by those of us who may unknowingly be asymptomatic and undiagnosed but still infected with SARS-CoV-2 and able to spread it easily to those we are chanting and walking and kneeling and standing with. We have a continuing very poor diagnostic testing program in most places in this country. The masks are to lessen the danger an individual MIGHT BE to public health rather than a personal health measure way to protect an individual from getting the virus. Every night, we soak and wash whatever masks we have custody of that have been used ? soak in detergent and bleach and rinse well, but some odor of bleach remains, and leave it for a few days before recycling it. Those who wear masks like the N-94 are people who need to be protected by the mask the wearer from getting the virus as they go into spaces recognized as having infected people likely to spread the infection. Of course, as for many things, we do not have a well-functioning public health system so the N-94 type masks are expensive and in short supply in many places. On the other hand, though, sometimes rising to the concrete of homemade masks (needed, yes, but liked because they are so damned whimsical) and the making of them seem to yield confidence, camaraderie, apprenticeships for public engagement and purpose. It?s a bonus that what the virus pandemic has demanded now often plays a part in people learning and using anti-fascist tools against police violence and government misdirection. BTW, what particularly struck me about the DC mayor?s apparent acceptance of BLM in the street art and new street name, is the immediate challenge from DC BLM and, as immediately, the mayor acknowledging that the symbols do not mask the gap in actions that BLM demands! Could this be a dialectic or what? There are about a dozen well sponsored and organized protests in DC today ? reduces worries by some of us about severe dangers to the big number of us that could be used for target practice in one place. BTW: I appreciate getting news updates I learn from (recently off the top of my head) from Carol MacDonald, David Preiss, David Kellog ?). It is different than published material and fills a different function for me. Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 5:11 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis (Is this thread American-centric? If so, 'twere a grievous fault. But grievously hath Haydi answered it--I don't think anybody can consider his dense, encyclopaedic blocks of text--the polar opposite of Anthony's American-centric orthography as well as Anthony's style and content--in any way American-centric....) Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we read events rather than in the events themselves, Anthony. To me, the situation in and around Washington DC looks very much like the situation in and around Beijing in May1989. As in DC, Beijing had laws preventing the entry of the armed forces other than those of the Beijing Military Region into the city (the exclusion laws were actually written into the Chinese constitution by Mao, who was always afraid of powerful military opponents like Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao). The Beijing Military Region, however, was loyal to the people of Beijing and to the General Secretary Zhao Ziyang, and they opposed to a coup. So, as in DC, the "martial law" forces were called to the city perimeter where they halted for several weeks. As in DC, the provenance of the "martial law" forces were quite mysterious--they didn't carry insignia and it later turned out that these were forces personally loyal to two PLA warlords, the brothers Yang Baibing and Yang Shangkun. As in DC, there were different waves of demonstrators inside the city: someone put up artworks in the square (as the mayor did in DC this morning) and others told people to go home and organize and not stay to be massacred. And then, almost exactly thirty-one years ago, the unmarked shock troops went in shooting, and at least a thousand people died. I hope that part is NOT like DC, but so far the "American exceptionalists" have been proved wrong on every single detail. Clorox on cloth? Gadzooks, Peg. Don't Americans have real N-94s yet? At the very height of the Daegu outbreak people had to resort to cloth masks (I don't think anybody used Clorox, though). Then the government brought in a rationing system so that health care workers could get PPE, and the extras are still rationed according to the numbers on registration cards: we go to the pharmacy twice a week to pick up our ration of three masks. No one is allowed onto a bus, a subway, or into a public building without one. Yesterday I went hiking for two hours and whenever I saw someone coming towards me they hastily put on a mask and bowed. (Do you know, the largest factory for PPE in the USA, and possibly the world until recently, is 3M in Minneapolis? There's a solid transitional demand for a general strike--Masks for all! Occupy 3M!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UU8TSKdA-pABIrCt4nfonvGKdFYG5ugLlRbfzIujRU9HSkzgQTVqUkZKCzW4D1ihuye-xQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UU8TSKdA-pABIrCt4nfonvGKdFYG5ugLlRbfzIujRU9HSkzgQTVqUkZKCzW4D1guKZSerA$ On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:30 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know of both. On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach > wrote: Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are never fixed given that as participants encounter new contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be blocked by a timid political leadership. For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: Foundations, findings and future challenges. Educational Research Review, 5, 1?24. Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions for expansivelearning and transformative agency. Journal of the Learning Sciences, 25(4), 599-633. -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UU8TSKdA-pABIrCt4nfonvGKdFYG5ugLlRbfzIujRU9HSkzgQTVqUkZKCzW4D1g9GTQU4w$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200607/4c15a27a/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Sun Jun 7 10:42:17 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 13:42:17 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: Hi Michael, Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 multivariate analysis, groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on the matter): https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/__;!!Mih3wA!S18nvB-bJf3z_eNSjHPT3rWUU-YDJmOewUS-_eVjP4nwhyrQvSiFE_5aqUIHnjEJEyBESQ$ surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force- but-not-in-shootings.html I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in graduate economics, though I could be mistaken there. I respect this community and in no way seek to bring dis- or misinformation into it, especially on topics that may require numerous key strokes just to get one's footing. Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's not argue. Anthony On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. What > makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from very > early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have > strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few > key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. > > > > I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well founded > social science. > > > > What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was > one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to > proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The > list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is > possible in this day and age. > > > > These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Bill Kerr > *Sent:* Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > hi Anthony, > > I watched both videos. > > > > Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a > half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they > murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the > police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not > disproportionate murder of black people. > > > > Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, > that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, > and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, > arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American > DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from > the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. > > > > There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is one > of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from > the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they were > recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which led > to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency which > led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This history has > been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still > not widely understood. > > > > Thank you > > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, > and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate > to! What a year so far. > > > > I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone > potentially curious: > > First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!S18nvB-bJf3z_eNSjHPT3rWUU-YDJmOewUS-_eVjP4nwhyrQvSiFE_5aqUIHnjGqOhJBYQ$ > featuring > Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link > that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) > > > > and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle > commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!S18nvB-bJf3z_eNSjHPT3rWUU-YDJmOewUS-_eVjP4nwhyrQvSiFE_5aqUIHnjE1H7f9Uw$ > > (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his > perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. > > > > Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these > videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against > the headwinds a fair amount. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, > > > > I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot > of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, > including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them > here and in the streets for a little while still. > > > > To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the > color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for > him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle > small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, > shouldn't it? > > > > I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we > must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter > violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky > chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with > flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? > > > > I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in > unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. > > > > NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! > > > > Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might > appreciate. > > > > We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of > desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is > just one. > > > > Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if > there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by > peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and > the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can > rationalize their dear riot gear. > > > > Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and > clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is > referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." > They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who > architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like > watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a > beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the > antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I > wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be > solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? > > > > I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember > coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in > 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed > looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. > Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. > > > > There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights > back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This morning > I drove down a street with many business having their windows boarded up. > There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think these folks are > fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the night by a > fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that street. But > then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought maybe they are > just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in there? > > > > I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray paint > on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in a > gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. > > > > I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are > protesting? > > > > There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African > American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the > world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, > well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those > people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." > I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe > it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it > will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." > > > > I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting > dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. > > > > My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire > point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built > upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this > color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from > another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to > heavy. > > > > Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more > of it. > > > > My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far > more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever > fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways > the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being > institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. > > > > The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental > exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. > > > > I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how > would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like > now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled > even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? > > > > The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human > rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right > to love one another. > > > > That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us > matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or > right. > > > > That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us > doesn't. > > > > I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to vocalize > that we have an open wound that needs dressing. > > > > Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where > Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until > Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, > if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. > > > > I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change > might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. > > > > Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way > to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. > > > > Thank you all in advance for your contributions. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200607/9a919d1b/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Jun 7 11:00:03 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 18:00:03 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> , Message-ID: Hello fellow gardeners of Us and Them, I have to agree with Michael, without meaning to put words in his mouth, but I feel his meaning is, getting into arguments about statistics, when it is well known there is injustice of profiling African American men and that there are too many being murdered by police for no reason, doesn't mean that murder of other colors is any less unsavory. Murder is murder, corruption is corruption, injustice is injustice. Let's not get into suffering contests that go no where, "My suffering is worse than yours," or "their suffering is worse than ours". That really doesn't speak to the issue that clearly quacks like a duck. Or should we argue whether it is a duck or not? Another problem I'm having in this reading to this discussion (not just on this list), is to debate about the cause. Clearly the issue of any sort of injustice doesn't have a neat and clean cause-and-effect rhythm. Oh, if only we can change the cause we can alter its effects. But when something happened (or didn't happen as the case may be) ~250+ years ago, it's hard to time travel and change the history. Yes, we should understand it. Yet, when someone is bleeding from a gunshot wound, does it help at that moment to ask "Who pulled the trigger?" I feel that this is a perhaps unintended reaction that has a consequence to prolong the lack of care our communities need. That is, to leisurely sit and debate about causes while the injured bleed to death. Maybe it's not appropriate to get "academic" about this right now. Maybe there is an emotional bypass going on. There's something very Cartesian about trying to solve a problem into parts as if doing so will provide clarity of cause. The worth of African American lives is not a mathematical proof. I feel this numbers talk dehumanizes people. At the same time, I'm not attempting to censor anyone. We need to talk. It is good. I suppose I'm trying to raise awareness that there is something difficult about all this when we have to revisit slavery as cause to what is happening now. Perhaps it is about appropriateness. I'm not sure. Alica Garza appeared on Meet the Press today with appeals to defund the police. The Guardian quotes her as saying: "When we talk about defunding the police, what we?re saying is invest in the resources that our communities need,? she said. ?So much of policing right now is generated and directed towards quality of life issues ... But what we do need is increased funding for housing, we need increased funding for education, we need increased funding for the quality of life of communities who are over-policed and over-surveilled. ?... Black Lives Matter is not just a radical idea ? everyone can agree that we don?t have the things that we need to live well, and that we are using policing and law enforcement in a way that far exceeds its utility.? In all honesty, I don't like wrangling the name "Black Lives Matter" because I come from a place where all lives matter, including animals and trees, and the oceans and land, our entire planet. Until we see that "That is me" everywhere we look, we will always remain disconnected from others and our environment and continue to "otherfy" into us and them. I don't think Black Lives Matter is a radical idea, because I've always thought that they matter. So I presume the audience to whom this speaks to are those who don't think that they do. If you do think they matter already then what should we be doing to better our society. What do you imagine is a solution? Cat got your tongue? What is an action to take? What I like about Alicia's discourse is that she doesn't trip into the statistics rabbit hole. This is again that liberal notion that if one cites egregious statistics that's going to somehow get people riled up to act. It doesn't work. Alicia offers a pathway to a SOLUTION. She uses her speech to explain not what she IS AGAINST, but what she IS FOR. It's about quality of life. Is it so hard to see this? It very well may be that AA men are our canaries in the coalmine of our society, are they returning dead in the cage after being lowered down the shaft? That how the police are treating them is just a precursor of what lay ahead for us if we do nothing. I'm on board with supporting anti-surveillance, and training for police to set in stone they are SERVING their communities not monitoring communities. I also feel sad that in the way people who might want to express their disdain for looting end up falling into suffering contest trap. This caused an editor in Philadelphia to resign by equating buildings to AA lives in a headline "Buildings Matter too." or something to that effect. I don't think that that is what he meant by the headline, and I feel it's wrong to cancel people out like that. It's cringe-worthy as a headline but should a person's life be destroyed like that? If he intended to mean that, it would be different, but I can't believe that he meant to intimate that meaning, when the content of the article (as I understand) had to do with leaving a hole in Philadelphia's body, and what would happen to the health of the city from this kind of destruction? That is the trap of the naming of this movement and why I don't like it. I suppose there is something here that has to do with a notion about property. And it is certainly foul to equate the worth of buildings with that of a demographic of people whose forebears were treated like property. But what is the message that says, "Because police destroy black lives, I will destroy your property" isn't that also making that kind of equation about property? I'm not trying to insinuate anyone who is against looting is making these kinds of equations, but does it mean we should be FOR looting? I saw as well that I did not quite explain my Gone With the Wind reference. Which was to say that in my teens the notion of looting was introduced to me when I read that novel, a fictional account of the Civil War. Being shot for looting was not something I could get my head around. I'm considering the subtexts and implied equations, and I wonder if they are coherent at all? It's a little crazy making. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Glassman, Michael Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 6:38 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis [EXTERNAL] Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well founded social science. What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Bill Kerr Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis hi Anthony, I watched both videos. Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not disproportionate murder of black people. Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still not widely understood. Thank you On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate to! What a year so far. I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone potentially curious: First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!SFiJRLzfKK5elW7e23Jos5oHy4__B83R5JNAphNIIKUTTqwbaAtw4PLz3VKMuvhq_W29ew$ featuring Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!SFiJRLzfKK5elW7e23Jos5oHy4__B83R5JNAphNIIKUTTqwbaAtw4PLz3VKMuvgh7Qa_bg$ (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against the headwinds a fair amount. Thank you, Anthony On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them here and in the streets for a little while still. To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, shouldn't it? I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might appreciate. We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is just one. Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can rationalize their dear riot gear. Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in there? I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are protesting? There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to heavy. Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more of it. My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right to love one another. That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or right. That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us doesn't. I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. Thank you all in advance for your contributions. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 4:35 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis [EXTERNAL] Peg- N95 masks are available in various parts of the country. If you have an address we could round up some and send them xpress. Give us stuck at homes something to do. mike On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:14 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: Right, David, we have always known our homemade masks are NOT good in that direction. I am glad you all have government provided via pharmacy and ration ones that are good in both directions. Our home made ones are not good the wearer?s personal health, just useful for public health. So far, we have nothing for personal health except for after-the-fact of infection and that only if we are lucky to get the manifestations that we can medicate at home or that we can get to a hospital with the resources we need for whatever Covid puts on our plate. AOC is an amazing woman. She has control of the facts on the ground and the differences among masks too. She knows the ones medical people need are two-way and better but she also recognizes the need for making and wearing and increasing the quality and quantity of our home-made ones. I put it down to her bartender training but others put it down to a super government policy education and dedication. I just got off the streets of Saturday protests in DC. Media still having trouble figuring out how come there are so many different marches that at the same time are all one. Lots of people have given themselves sun up to sun down time frames and a side job of visiting as many different marches as they can. Some incredibly snooty DC restaurants started to ?bring out:? They make their fancy food and bring it out ? more or less forcing it for free on whoever is passing by! I think some protesters modified their plans to pass by that restaurant. A bunch of us just wore out a little after 5, but, there seemed to be a new and better shift coming on. Worst violence during the day so far was to our hearts when we couldn?t hug and kiss toddlers and pre-schoolers we knew and they just didn?t like it at all that we could be so rotten to their sweet selves. Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 5:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis Thanks, Peg. N.B., though, the WHO now defunded by the USA but fortunately refunded by the PRC, has just said that masks ARE for healthy people. You remember that at the beginning of the pandemic, there was a "Western" view of transmission (doctors in the US and Europe) and an Eastern view (here in Korea and China) The "Western" view was all about droplets, which adhered to surfaces and then were transmitted to eyes, nose, and mouth by unwashed hands and face touching. The "Eastern" view was all about aerosols, which hang in the air and doesn't adhere to a surface at all. As Michael Osterholm--another Minnesotan!--explained, an aerosol is what you see in a sunbeam and also what you smell when you stand two aisles away from the perfume department. Now the science is in--it's an aerosol, and a good N-94 (we call them K-95s) will protect you, not just from the people you are talking to but from folks who are two aisles away. It will even protect your lungs and nose from the tear gas if it's tight enough, though you will still need eye protection. I use one with an elastic band that bypasses my ears and a clip that holds the elastic behind my head. Trump says: "Take it!" (hydroxychloroquine, which has zero prophylactic vaue but will exascerbate your heart condition). Ocasio-Cortez says, "Wear it!" (Hey, I wonder who's right...?) Anthony's right to warn against American-centrism: it is examples like Korea that show the world that the pandemic doesn't have to go the American way. We had NO lockdown, and our schools are up and running again (sort of--one of our Vygotsky group just had her school closed because a NEIGHBORING school had a kid test positive and the teachers are worried that kids from the two schools play and study together after hours). We just test and trace--and trust, too, because you really have to trust your neighbors and your government to do the kind of tracking we do over here. It's also worth remembering what Korea had to do to get here--for a whole year in 2017-2018, there were weekly street demos to remove the previous malignancy (a hard-right government that had seized power through a massive disinformation campaign in a very tightly contested election). That president didn't golf or tweet, but she did watch the sinking of a ferry with more than three hundred high school kids below decks on the TV while having her hair done.... Henry--I don't think I ever used the phrase "the brutality of the Chinese regime". Actually, the Chinese regime was and is neither more nor less brutal than any other. The whole point I was trying to make, actually, was the the legitimate Chinese regime under Zhao Ziyang and Hu Qili had to be removed by a military coup in order crush the demonstrations, and even the legitimate military authorities had to be bypassed in order to open fire on ordinary people. Unless we understand that, we get a kind of Chinese exceptionalism when we compare Beijing 1989 with what happened later that year in Romania, and the following year in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union generally.The troops didn't open fire there, but in Beijing they did. Why? Well, I suppose that it was because the PLA has been and to some extent still is an army based on sympathetic warlords and local bandits. That seems a trivial reason, but combined with the mistaken attempts by student leaders to eliminate the particpation of the working class in the national movement, it was decisive. I don't mean to sucker-punch this thread, but for those like Henry who are considering the social democratic alternative, I would like to draw attention to the link below, a critique of a recent book using social democracy as a model for understanding, among other things, progressive education and Vygotskyan theory. It's also worth considering the abject failure of precisely those governments run by the social democrats to cope with Covid-19: Spain and Sweden. Even in Italy, the UK, and Brazil you have far-right governments which are resting on a health system built up by social democracy and you see very similar failures. Social democracy rests on the economic "successes" of capitalism (specifically: imperalism, where capital is exported for profits that can be used to buy off the working class). Social democracy then tries to tinker with the crises, trying to attentuate it with Adam Smith's triumvirate of wages, rents, and interests. There are, of course, limits to any analogy, but if you think of a health crisis as a developmental crisis writ large, you can see why the Chinese model was so much better. Imagine a child who is undergoing a crisis at three or at thirteen. You don't treat the crisis at three by injecting the child with ritalin (although, you know, there WAS a US drug company that wanted to market anti-depressants to children using Eeyore and drugs for ADHD using Tigger!). You shouldn't try to treat the crisis at thirteen by fiddling with the child's new hormone balance. Mutatis mutandis, that would be like taking hydroxychloroquine instead of wearing a mask. (More discussion and even more farfetched analogies in the article linked below!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University Book Review: 'Fees, Beets, and Music: A critical perusal of Critical Pedagogy and Marx, Vygotsky and Freire: Phenomenal forms and educational action research in Mind Culture and Activity https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1745847__;!!Mih3wA!SFiJRLzfKK5elW7e23Jos5oHy4__B83R5JNAphNIIKUTTqwbaAtw4PLz3VKMuvivXl_zoQ$ Some free e-prints available at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/QBBGIZNKAHPMM4ZVCWVX/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1745847__;Lw!!Mih3wA!SFiJRLzfKK5elW7e23Jos5oHy4__B83R5JNAphNIIKUTTqwbaAtw4PLz3VKMuvhL_Xt2YA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SFiJRLzfKK5elW7e23Jos5oHy4__B83R5JNAphNIIKUTTqwbaAtw4PLz3VKMuvi78sE8mQ$ On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 11:35 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: Sorry, but I seem to have misled you about masks here, David. Wouldn?t want people to think it?s a good idea to pour bleach on cloth and wear it! (Apparently some people, in this country at least, are using bleach on their skin or on their food; wouldn?t like to suggest such dangerous practices.) Our homemade masks are mostly three layers of cotton, some with pouches for filters if someone has or wants one. They are intended to be worn by those of us who may unknowingly be asymptomatic and undiagnosed but still infected with SARS-CoV-2 and able to spread it easily to those we are chanting and walking and kneeling and standing with. We have a continuing very poor diagnostic testing program in most places in this country. The masks are to lessen the danger an individual MIGHT BE to public health rather than a personal health measure way to protect an individual from getting the virus. Every night, we soak and wash whatever masks we have custody of that have been used ? soak in detergent and bleach and rinse well, but some odor of bleach remains, and leave it for a few days before recycling it. Those who wear masks like the N-94 are people who need to be protected by the mask the wearer from getting the virus as they go into spaces recognized as having infected people likely to spread the infection. Of course, as for many things, we do not have a well-functioning public health system so the N-94 type masks are expensive and in short supply in many places. On the other hand, though, sometimes rising to the concrete of homemade masks (needed, yes, but liked because they are so damned whimsical) and the making of them seem to yield confidence, camaraderie, apprenticeships for public engagement and purpose. It?s a bonus that what the virus pandemic has demanded now often plays a part in people learning and using anti-fascist tools against police violence and government misdirection. BTW, what particularly struck me about the DC mayor?s apparent acceptance of BLM in the street art and new street name, is the immediate challenge from DC BLM and, as immediately, the mayor acknowledging that the symbols do not mask the gap in actions that BLM demands! Could this be a dialectic or what? There are about a dozen well sponsored and organized protests in DC today ? reduces worries by some of us about severe dangers to the big number of us that could be used for target practice in one place. BTW: I appreciate getting news updates I learn from (recently off the top of my head) from Carol MacDonald, David Preiss, David Kellog ?). It is different than published material and fills a different function for me. Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 5:11 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis (Is this thread American-centric? If so, 'twere a grievous fault. But grievously hath Haydi answered it--I don't think anybody can consider his dense, encyclopaedic blocks of text--the polar opposite of Anthony's American-centric orthography as well as Anthony's style and content--in any way American-centric....) Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we read events rather than in the events themselves, Anthony. To me, the situation in and around Washington DC looks very much like the situation in and around Beijing in May1989. As in DC, Beijing had laws preventing the entry of the armed forces other than those of the Beijing Military Region into the city (the exclusion laws were actually written into the Chinese constitution by Mao, who was always afraid of powerful military opponents like Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao). The Beijing Military Region, however, was loyal to the people of Beijing and to the General Secretary Zhao Ziyang, and they opposed to a coup. So, as in DC, the "martial law" forces were called to the city perimeter where they halted for several weeks. As in DC, the provenance of the "martial law" forces were quite mysterious--they didn't carry insignia and it later turned out that these were forces personally loyal to two PLA warlords, the brothers Yang Baibing and Yang Shangkun. As in DC, there were different waves of demonstrators inside the city: someone put up artworks in the square (as the mayor did in DC this morning) and others told people to go home and organize and not stay to be massacred. And then, almost exactly thirty-one years ago, the unmarked shock troops went in shooting, and at least a thousand people died. I hope that part is NOT like DC, but so far the "American exceptionalists" have been proved wrong on every single detail. Clorox on cloth? Gadzooks, Peg. Don't Americans have real N-94s yet? At the very height of the Daegu outbreak people had to resort to cloth masks (I don't think anybody used Clorox, though). Then the government brought in a rationing system so that health care workers could get PPE, and the extras are still rationed according to the numbers on registration cards: we go to the pharmacy twice a week to pick up our ration of three masks. No one is allowed onto a bus, a subway, or into a public building without one. Yesterday I went hiking for two hours and whenever I saw someone coming towards me they hastily put on a mask and bowed. (Do you know, the largest factory for PPE in the USA, and possibly the world until recently, is 3M in Minneapolis? There's a solid transitional demand for a general strike--Masks for all! Occupy 3M!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SFiJRLzfKK5elW7e23Jos5oHy4__B83R5JNAphNIIKUTTqwbaAtw4PLz3VKMuvi13G8VIw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SFiJRLzfKK5elW7e23Jos5oHy4__B83R5JNAphNIIKUTTqwbaAtw4PLz3VKMuvi78sE8mQ$ On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:30 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know of both. On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach > wrote: Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are never fixed given that as participants encounter new contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be blocked by a timid political leadership. For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: Foundations, findings and future challenges. Educational Research Review, 5, 1?24. Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions for expansivelearning and transformative agency. Journal of the Learning Sciences, 25(4), 599-633. -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!SFiJRLzfKK5elW7e23Jos5oHy4__B83R5JNAphNIIKUTTqwbaAtw4PLz3VKMuviHHJ-pfQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200607/ef9b6da2/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Sun Jun 7 11:06:04 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 13:06:04 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <9AC5F246-B3DF-4AAE-96A3-3413C37568CE@cantab.net> Hi Anthony, Fryer has an updated analysis on his webpage: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scholar.harvard.edu/fryer/publications__;!!Mih3wA!Uf-H0OZ5ZzdWoPoMlrjb0_URLgBWQH6dYcldXen_NnuTZqhL76BCYIwVItrpKbkfzjPMwQ$ Roland G Fryer J. Reconciling Results on Racial Differences in Police Shootings . American Economic Review (Papers and Proceedings). Forthcoming Here are his conclusions: IV. Conclusion The time has come for a national reckoning on race and policing in America. But, the issues are thorny and the conclusions one can draw about racial bias are fraught with difficulty. The most granular data suggest that there is no bias in police shootings (Fryer (forthcoming)), but these data are far from a representative sample of police departments and do not contain any experimental variation. We cannot rest. We need more and better data. With the advances in natural language processing and the increased willingness of police departments to share sensitive data, we can make progress. For those of us who desire a more perfect union, police use of force has become our Gettysburg. Of course, black lives matter as much as any other lives. Yet, we do this principle a disservice if we do not adhere to strict standards of evidence and take at face value descriptive statistics that are consistent with our preconceived ideas. ?Stay Woke? ? but critically so. Martin > On Jun 7, 2020, at 12:42 PM, Anthony Barra wrote: > > Hi Michael, > > Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 multivariate analysis, groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on the matter): https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html__;!!Mih3wA!Uf-H0OZ5ZzdWoPoMlrjb0_URLgBWQH6dYcldXen_NnuTZqhL76BCYIwVItrpKbnpVCeWCQ$ > > I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in graduate economics, though I could be mistaken there. > > I respect this community and in no way seek to bring dis- or misinformation into it, especially on topics that may require numerous key strokes just to get one's footing. > > Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's not argue. > > Anthony > > > > On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael > wrote: > Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. > > > > I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well founded social science. > > > > What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. > > > > These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. > > > > Michael > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Bill Kerr > Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > hi Anthony, > > I watched both videos. > > > > Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not disproportionate murder of black people. > > > > Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. > > > > There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still not widely understood. > > > > Thank you > > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate to! What a year so far. > > > > I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone potentially curious: > > First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!Uf-H0OZ5ZzdWoPoMlrjb0_URLgBWQH6dYcldXen_NnuTZqhL76BCYIwVItrpKbmiaUP2WQ$ featuring Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) > > > > and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!Uf-H0OZ5ZzdWoPoMlrjb0_URLgBWQH6dYcldXen_NnuTZqhL76BCYIwVItrpKbnGYRrzhw$ (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. > > > > Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against the headwinds a fair amount. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, > > > > I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them here and in the streets for a little while still. > > > > To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, shouldn't it? > > > > I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? > > > > I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. > > > > NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! > > > > Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might appreciate. > > > > We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is just one. > > > > Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can rationalize their dear riot gear. > > > > Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? > > > > I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. > > > > There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in there? > > > > I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. > > > > I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are protesting? > > > > There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." > > > > I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. > > > > My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to heavy. > > > > Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more of it. > > > > My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. > > > > The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. > > > > I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? > > > > The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right to love one another. > > > > That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or right. > > > > That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us doesn't. > > > > I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. > > > > Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. > > > > I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. > > > > Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. > > > > Thank you all in advance for your contributions. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200607/fd1568b1/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Jun 7 11:09:37 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 18:09:37 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <001401d63c71$8cbbd7a0$a63386e0$@att.net> References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net>, , <001401d63c71$8cbbd7a0$a63386e0$@att.net> Message-ID: Hi Peg, I do not know about Ady Barkan. I will have to take a look at your link. My point in raising the notion of disabled folks protesting (even rioting and looting, or any one of the above), to express their malaise over social injustice, just made me think about today's problems a little bit differently. You must know about Ed Roberts, then. I maintain that this BLM discussion (if it is OK to call it that) is so difficult because of the way we talk about it. We can't seem to imagine our way to a better place. No one has yet taken my offer to imagine a better quality of life. Imagination is the first part of planning, unless we want to include dreaming. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Peg Griffin, Ph.D. Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 8:15 PM To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis [EXTERNAL] Hi, Annalisa, Because of your interest in people with disabilities in protests, I thought might like to know about some things I?ve learned just because of where I happen to be living. 1. Today, I saw several people in wheelchairs and walkers at our various demonstrations around town. Some I know fairly well because over the past few years they have been in a lot of plannings, meetings, trainings and actions that I have also been in. 2. There is a group referred to as ?The littlest lobbyists" who have a local group here but who also have folks from elsewhere that come to DC on occasions important for ADA and IDEA and health care legislation or court action. Usually family accompanies the children but sometimes it?s small school groups. There are also some grown-ups I?ve met in the group who have described themselves to me as having aged out of being little. 3. You probably all already know Ady Barkan who just takes my breath away. He?s 36 years old, a lawyer, activist, husband, father, and a superb organizer for the Center for Popular Democracy, and he has ALS (Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis), a terminal illness. His mobility and speech are increasingly compromised but he is not conquered. Here is a link to ?A Message from Ady Barkan to the movement.? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://populardemocracy.org/2020__;!!Mih3wA!WBhonbWxatkdJ1WJm87bq-boTI_mkA13532fL-ke1k45BkHX25u3GbUyX-kyuSL7s0NgqQ$ Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 8:42 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them here and in the streets for a little while still. To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, shouldn't it? I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might appreciate. We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is just one Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can rationalize their dear riot gear. Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in there? I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are protesting? There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to heavy. Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more of it. My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right to love one another. That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or right. That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us doesn't. I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. Thank you all in advance for your contributions. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 4:35 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis [EXTERNAL] Peg- N95 masks are available in various parts of the country. If you have an address we could round up some and send them xpress. Give us stuck at homes something to do. mike On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:14 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: Right, David, we have always known our homemade masks are NOT good in that direction. I am glad you all have government provided via pharmacy and ration ones that are good in both directions. Our home made ones are not good the wearer?s personal health, just useful for public health. So far, we have nothing for personal health except for after-the-fact of infection and that only if we are lucky to get the manifestations that we can medicate at home or that we can get to a hospital with the resources we need for whatever Covid puts on our plate. AOC is an amazing woman. She has control of the facts on the ground and the differences among masks too. She knows the ones medical people need are two-way and better but she also recognizes the need for making and wearing and increasing the quality and quantity of our home-made ones. I put it down to her bartender training but others put it down to a super government policy education and dedication. I just got off the streets of Saturday protests in DC. Media still having trouble figuring out how come there are so many different marches that at the same time are all one. Lots of people have given themselves sun up to sun down time frames and a side job of visiting as many different marches as they can. Some incredibly snooty DC restaurants started to ?bring out:? They make their fancy food and bring it out ? more or less forcing it for free on whoever is passing by! I think some protesters modified their plans to pass by that restaurant. A bunch of us just wore out a little after 5, but, there seemed to be a new and better shift coming on. Worst violence during the day so far was to our hearts when we couldn?t hug and kiss toddlers and pre-schoolers we knew and they just didn?t like it at all that we could be so rotten to their sweet selves. Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 5:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis Thanks, Peg. N.B., though, the WHO now defunded by the USA but fortunately refunded by the PRC, has just said that masks ARE for healthy people. You remember that at the beginning of the pandemic, there was a "Western" view of transmission (doctors in the US and Europe) and an Eastern view (here in Korea and China) The "Western" view was all about droplets, which adhered to surfaces and then were transmitted to eyes, nose, and mouth by unwashed hands and face touching. The "Eastern" view was all about aerosols, which hang in the air and doesn't adhere to a surface at all. As Michael Osterholm--another Minnesotan!--explained, an aerosol is what you see in a sunbeam and also what you smell when you stand two aisles away from the perfume department. Now the science is in--it's an aerosol, and a good N-94 (we call them K-95s) will protect you, not just from the people you are talking to but from folks who are two aisles away. It will even protect your lungs and nose from the tear gas if it's tight enough, though you will still need eye protection. I use one with an elastic band that bypasses my ears and a clip that holds the elastic behind my head. Trump says: "Take it!" (hydroxychloroquine, which has zero prophylactic vaue but will exascerbate your heart condition). Ocasio-Cortez says, "Wear it!" (Hey, I wonder who's right...?) Anthony's right to warn against American-centrism: it is examples like Korea that show the world that the pandemic doesn't have to go the American way. We had NO lockdown, and our schools are up and running again (sort of--one of our Vygotsky group just had her school closed because a NEIGHBORING school had a kid test positive and the teachers are worried that kids from the two schools play and study together after hours). We just test and trace--and trust, too, because you really have to trust your neighbors and your government to do the kind of tracking we do over here. It's also worth remembering what Korea had to do to get here--for a whole year in 2017-2018, there were weekly street demos to remove the previous malignancy (a hard-right government that had seized power through a massive disinformation campaign in a very tightly contested election). That president didn't golf or tweet, but she did watch the sinking of a ferry with more than three hundred high school kids below decks on the TV while having her hair done.... Henry--I don't think I ever used the phrase "the brutality of the Chinese regime". Actually, the Chinese regime was and is neither more nor less brutal than any other. The whole point I was trying to make, actually, was the the legitimate Chinese regime under Zhao Ziyang and Hu Qili had to be removed by a military coup in order crush the demonstrations, and even the legitimate military authorities had to be bypassed in order to open fire on ordinary people. Unless we understand that, we get a kind of Chinese exceptionalism when we compare Beijing 1989 with what happened later that year in Romania, and the following year in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union generally.The troops didn't open fire there, but in Beijing they did. Why? Well, I suppose that it was because the PLA has been and to some extent still is an army based on sympathetic warlords and local bandits. That seems a trivial reason, but combined with the mistaken attempts by student leaders to eliminate the particpation of the working class in the national movement, it was decisive. I don't mean to sucker-punch this thread, but for those like Henry who are considering the social democratic alternative, I would like to draw attention to the link below, a critique of a recent book using social democracy as a model for understanding, among other things, progressive education and Vygotskyan theory. It's also worth considering the abject failure of precisely those governments run by the social democrats to cope with Covid-19: Spain and Sweden. Even in Italy, the UK, and Brazil you have far-right governments which are resting on a health system built up by social democracy and you see very similar failures. Social democracy rests on the economic "successes" of capitalism (specifically: imperalism, where capital is exported for profits that can be used to buy off the working class). Social democracy then tries to tinker with the crises, trying to attentuate it with Adam Smith's triumvirate of wages, rents, and interests. There are, of course, limits to any analogy, but if you think of a health crisis as a developmental crisis writ large, you can see why the Chinese model was so much better. Imagine a child who is undergoing a crisis at three or at thirteen. You don't treat the crisis at three by injecting the child with ritalin (although, you know, there WAS a US drug company that wanted to market anti-depressants to children using Eeyore and drugs for ADHD using Tigger!). You shouldn't try to treat the crisis at thirteen by fiddling with the child's new hormone balance. Mutatis mutandis, that would be like taking hydroxychloroquine instead of wearing a mask. (More discussion and even more farfetched analogies in the article linked below!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University Book Review: 'Fees, Beets, and Music: A critical perusal of Critical Pedagogy and Marx, Vygotsky and Freire: Phenomenal forms and educational action research in Mind Culture and Activity https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1745847__;!!Mih3wA!WBhonbWxatkdJ1WJm87bq-boTI_mkA13532fL-ke1k45BkHX25u3GbUyX-kyuSJGINwZoQ$ Some free e-prints available at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/QBBGIZNKAHPMM4ZVCWVX/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1745847__;Lw!!Mih3wA!WBhonbWxatkdJ1WJm87bq-boTI_mkA13532fL-ke1k45BkHX25u3GbUyX-kyuSJi7qgX-Q$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WBhonbWxatkdJ1WJm87bq-boTI_mkA13532fL-ke1k45BkHX25u3GbUyX-kyuSIls0x0oA$ On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 11:35 PM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: Sorry, but I seem to have misled you about masks here, David. Wouldn?t want people to think it?s a good idea to pour bleach on cloth and wear it! (Apparently some people, in this country at least, are using bleach on their skin or on their food; wouldn?t like to suggest such dangerous practices.) Our homemade masks are mostly three layers of cotton, some with pouches for filters if someone has or wants one. They are intended to be worn by those of us who may unknowingly be asymptomatic and undiagnosed but still infected with SARS-CoV-2 and able to spread it easily to those we are chanting and walking and kneeling and standing with. We have a continuing very poor diagnostic testing program in most places in this country. The masks are to lessen the danger an individual MIGHT BE to public health rather than a personal health measure way to protect an individual from getting the virus. Every night, we soak and wash whatever masks we have custody of that have been used ? soak in detergent and bleach and rinse well, but some odor of bleach remains, and leave it for a few days before recycling it. Those who wear masks like the N-94 are people who need to be protected by the mask the wearer from getting the virus as they go into spaces recognized as having infected people likely to spread the infection. Of course, as for many things, we do not have a well-functioning public health system so the N-94 type masks are expensive and in short supply in many places. On the other hand, though, sometimes rising to the concrete of homemade masks (needed, yes, but liked because they are so damned whimsical) and the making of them seem to yield confidence, camaraderie, apprenticeships for public engagement and purpose. It?s a bonus that what the virus pandemic has demanded now often plays a part in people learning and using anti-fascist tools against police violence and government misdirection. BTW, what particularly struck me about the DC mayor?s apparent acceptance of BLM in the street art and new street name, is the immediate challenge from DC BLM and, as immediately, the mayor acknowledging that the symbols do not mask the gap in actions that BLM demands! Could this be a dialectic or what? There are about a dozen well sponsored and organized protests in DC today ? reduces worries by some of us about severe dangers to the big number of us that could be used for target practice in one place. BTW: I appreciate getting news updates I learn from (recently off the top of my head) from Carol MacDonald, David Preiss, David Kellog ?). It is different than published material and fills a different function for me. Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 5:11 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis (Is this thread American-centric? If so, 'twere a grievous fault. But grievously hath Haydi answered it--I don't think anybody can consider his dense, encyclopaedic blocks of text--the polar opposite of Anthony's American-centric orthography as well as Anthony's style and content--in any way American-centric...) Perhaps American-centrism and American-exceptionalism is in the way we read events rather than in the events themselves, Anthony. To me, the situation in and around Washington DC looks very much like the situation in and around Beijing in May1989. As in DC, Beijing had laws preventing the entry of the armed forces other than those of the Beijing Military Region into the city (the exclusion laws were actually written into the Chinese constitution by Mao, who was always afraid of powerful military opponents like Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao). The Beijing Military Region, however, was loyal to the people of Beijing and to the General Secretary Zhao Ziyang, and they opposed to a coup. So, as in DC, the "martial law" forces were called to the city perimeter where they halted for several weeks. As in DC, the provenance of the "martial law" forces were quite mysterious--they didn't carry insignia and it later turned out that these were forces personally loyal to two PLA warlords, the brothers Yang Baibing and Yang Shangkun. As in DC, there were different waves of demonstrators inside the city: someone put up artworks in the square (as the mayor did in DC this morning) and others told people to go home and organize and not stay to be massacred. And then, almost exactly thirty-one years ago, the unmarked shock troops went in shooting, and at least a thousand people died. I hope that part is NOT like DC, but so far the "American exceptionalists" have been proved wrong on every single detail. Clorox on cloth? Gadzooks, Peg. Don't Americans have real N-94s yet? At the very height of the Daegu outbreak people had to resort to cloth masks (I don't think anybody used Clorox, though). Then the government brought in a rationing system so that health care workers could get PPE, and the extras are still rationed according to the numbers on registration cards: we go to the pharmacy twice a week to pick up our ration of three masks. No one is allowed onto a bus, a subway, or into a public building without one. Yesterday I went hiking for two hours and whenever I saw someone coming towards me they hastily put on a mask and bowed. (Do you know, the largest factory for PPE in the USA, and possibly the world until recently, is 3M in Minneapolis? There's a solid transitional demand for a general strike--Masks for all! Occupy 3M!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WBhonbWxatkdJ1WJm87bq-boTI_mkA13532fL-ke1k45BkHX25u3GbUyX-kyuSIEOPkvtA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WBhonbWxatkdJ1WJm87bq-boTI_mkA13532fL-ke1k45BkHX25u3GbUyX-kyuSIls0x0oA$ On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:30 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Thank you, I'll take a look. Sounds similar to dialectics, little I know of both. On Thursday, June 4, 2020, Richard Beach > wrote: Anthony, the concept of ?expansive learning? posits that objects/motive in activity are ideally always open to change/transformation?that they are never fixed given that as participants encounter new contradictions/challenges, they ?learn to?/formulate new objects/motives. This requires learners to be open to exploring optional actions/tools/norms as they redefine/revise their ever expanding objects/motives. Coping with decades-long racist practices in Minneapolis, requires ?expansive learning? to continually experiment with new objects/motives given that some of the tools/practices attempted in the past haven?t necessarily worked, although attempts were made to do so, only to be blocked by a timid political leadership For more on expansive learning theory, see attached reports: Engestr?m,Y., & Sannino, A. (2010). Studies of expansive learning: Foundations, findings and future challenges. Educational Research Review, 5, 1?24. Sannino, A., Engestr?m, Y., & Lemos, M. (2016). Formative interventions for expansivelearning and transformative agency. Journal of the Learning Sciences, 25(4), 599-633. -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxisnet__;!!Mih3wA!WBhonbWxatkdJ1WJm87bq-boTI_mkA13532fL-ke1k45BkHX25u3GbUyX-kyuSIP51JRRA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200607/1bddbe10/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Sun Jun 7 11:08:23 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 13:08:23 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: I should have added that Fryer's original study, reported in the NY Times in 2016, found this: A new study confirms that black men and women are treated differently in the hands of law enforcement. They are more likely to be touched, handcuffed, pushed to the ground or pepper-sprayed by a police officer, even after accounting for how, where and when they encounter the police. But when it comes to the most lethal form of force ? police shootings ? the study finds no racial bias. ?It is the most surprising result of my career,? said Roland G. Fryer Jr. , the author of the study and a professor of economics at Harvard. The study examined more than 1,000 shootings in 10 major police departments, in Texas, Florida and California. Martin > On Jun 7, 2020, at 12:42 PM, Anthony Barra wrote: > > Hi Michael, > > Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 multivariate analysis, groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on the matter): https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html__;!!Mih3wA!WNv2OVubdef9Qu11-9OSIA9NJRZrfDvQ9vU0rWYmUvy_G7k_S_IK7D17VF3WG_lPyse1Fw$ > > I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in graduate economics, though I could be mistaken there. > > I respect this community and in no way seek to bring dis- or misinformation into it, especially on topics that may require numerous key strokes just to get one's footing. > > Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's not argue. > > Anthony > > > > On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael > wrote: > Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. > > > > I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well founded social science. > > > > What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. > > > > These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. > > > > Michael > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Bill Kerr > Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > hi Anthony, > > I watched both videos. > > > > Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not disproportionate murder of black people. > > > > Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. > > > > There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still not widely understood. > > > > Thank you > > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate to! What a year so far. > > > > I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone potentially curious: > > First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!WNv2OVubdef9Qu11-9OSIA9NJRZrfDvQ9vU0rWYmUvy_G7k_S_IK7D17VF3WG_mUoTMyuw$ featuring Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) > > > > and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!WNv2OVubdef9Qu11-9OSIA9NJRZrfDvQ9vU0rWYmUvy_G7k_S_IK7D17VF3WG_mZ8LWaNg$ (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. > > > > Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against the headwinds a fair amount. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, > > > > I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them here and in the streets for a little while still. > > > > To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, shouldn't it? > > > > I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? > > > > I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. > > > > NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! > > > > Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might appreciate. > > > > We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is just one. > > > > Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can rationalize their dear riot gear. > > > > Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? > > > > I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. > > > > There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in there? > > > > I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. > > > > I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are protesting? > > > > There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." > > > > I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. > > > > My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to heavy. > > > > Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more of it. > > > > My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. > > > > The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. > > > > I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? > > > > The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right to love one another. > > > > That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or right. > > > > That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us doesn't. > > > > I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. > > > > Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. > > > > I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. > > > > Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. > > > > Thank you all in advance for your contributions. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200607/11240489/attachment-0001.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Jun 7 11:31:18 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 18:31:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <9AC5F246-B3DF-4AAE-96A3-3413C37568CE@cantab.net> References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> , <9AC5F246-B3DF-4AAE-96A3-3413C37568CE@cantab.net> Message-ID: Hi Martin and other venerable gardeners, While data is important, there is always in the halls of injustice the impact of misrepresentations. People fudge facts. People just lie to make things seem as they really are not. Look at homelessness. Everyone touts the statistics, and there are lots of workers in county services paid to provide services that actually do not offer anything concrete to house those who are homeless. Yet in our society we throw more money at the problem and hire more people who are "specialists" to measure and do analysis. and the homeless still do not get housed. The fact is the homeless need housing. Housing first then services later. (To connect this to BLM talks, I'd ask, What do African Americans NEED right now?) Even then, "housing first" doesn't work if there isn't an adequate communication between agencies, which can result in the vulnerable person falling through the cracks. They have a term for that too, the "chronically homeless." The system should be labeled "chronically ineffective and useless" rather than calling the vulnerable person "chronically homeless." It's blaming the victim, just for existing. These systems-folk CYA to make it look like they are re-thinking the problem, getting more experts in to measure and analyze. Maintaining the injustice; re-victimizing the survivor of homelessness only because they survive abject circumstances. What is required at times like this is direct action and mutual aid. What is needed right now? NOW? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin Packer Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 12:06 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis [EXTERNAL] Hi Anthony, Fryer has an updated analysis on his webpage: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scholar.harvard.edu/fryer/publications__;!!Mih3wA!UbltJVg1GNhwFAnTsgFCiVZzQqqxwuqSe1x9uBs9vBp4FqY6o0AtV3zQxqpzw1fJolaGMg$ Roland G Fryer J. Reconciling Results on Racial Differences in Police Shootings. American Economic Review (Papers and Proceedings). Forthcoming Here are his conclusions: IV. Conclusion The time has come for a national reckoning on race and policing in America. But, the issues are thorny and the conclusions one can draw about racial bias are fraught with difficulty. The most granular data suggest that there is no bias in police shootings (Fryer (forthcoming)), but these data are far from a representative sample of police departments and do not contain any experimental variation. We cannot rest. We need more and better data. With the advances in natural language processing and the increased willingness of police departments to share sensitive data, we can make progress. For those of us who desire a more perfect union, police use of force has become our Gettysburg. Of course, black lives matter as much as any other lives. Yet, we do this principle a disservice if we do not adhere to strict standards of evidence and take at face value descriptive statistics that are consistent with our preconceived ideas. ?Stay Woke? ? but critically so. Martin On Jun 7, 2020, at 12:42 PM, Anthony Barra > wrote: Hi Michael, Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 multivariate analysis, groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on the matter): https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html__;!!Mih3wA!UbltJVg1GNhwFAnTsgFCiVZzQqqxwuqSe1x9uBs9vBp4FqY6o0AtV3zQxqpzw1ekKK4EHQ$ I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in graduate economics, though I could be mistaken there. I respect this community and in no way seek to bring dis- or misinformation into it, especially on topics that may require numerous key strokes just to get one's footing. Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's not argue. Anthony On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael > wrote: Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well founded social science. What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Bill Kerr Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis hi Anthony, I watched both videos. Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not disproportionate murder of black people. Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still not widely understood. Thank you On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate to! What a year so far. I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone potentially curious: First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!UbltJVg1GNhwFAnTsgFCiVZzQqqxwuqSe1x9uBs9vBp4FqY6o0AtV3zQxqpzw1cuCCYeRg$ featuring Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!UbltJVg1GNhwFAnTsgFCiVZzQqqxwuqSe1x9uBs9vBp4FqY6o0AtV3zQxqpzw1cJ1pU74g$ (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against the headwinds a fair amount. Thank you, Anthony On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them here and in the streets for a little while still. To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, shouldn't it? I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might appreciate. We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is just one. Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can rationalize their dear riot gear. Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in there? I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are protesting? There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to heavy. Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more of it. My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right to love one another. That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or right. That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us doesn't. I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. Thank you all in advance for your contributions. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200607/5a290daf/attachment.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Sun Jun 7 12:29:26 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 19:29:26 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <9AC5F246-B3DF-4AAE-96A3-3413C37568CE@cantab.net> References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <9AC5F246-B3DF-4AAE-96A3-3413C37568CE@cantab.net> Message-ID: <81E6CF72-BA9A-4A03-A34E-BE58C4767DDA@uio.no> Thanks Anthony and all. I agree with Annalisa that we cannot and should not reduce the issue to statistics, to who?s got them bigger. If one was to try, though, one can find other studies arguing that there is an important disproportion: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2016.303575__;!!Mih3wA!RJGsTBqGyZ49q-uXZET0wo-vNzwITxoXb-OyyUVY9zVv9eLx6elbQCX9pi9ciNDMUgj5cQ$ --- or showing that there not only are more killings by police, but that police?s killing of others impact men and women of color?s mental health disproportionally more: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673618311309?casa_token=HmfTJf26m_8AAAAA:02hbAWacoaIeoTMt1oEId4T2pSgud_ZCd481ey9Wsqg9OD6Ul5gnUGBeP2U87Lcd4e0d8f4q5Q__;!!Mih3wA!RJGsTBqGyZ49q-uXZET0wo-vNzwITxoXb-OyyUVY9zVv9eLx6elbQCX9pi9ciNB9BMnlTg$ So data is important, and we must stay woke in a critical way, as Martin?s quotation suggests. But I think Annalisa?s point is crucial: it is at least curious that we would be talking about the statistics rather than listening and responding and being response-able to a social reality we can see with our eyes in ways that can open for more just societies. I hear Annalisa?s call to be ?less academic?, but I think that being academic should be precisely about that, not just the rigor, but the striving towards justice too. I think that finding ways, in the social sciences, to be responsive and response-able to the circumstances we are living demands of lots of empathy and imagination to be able to pose the adequate research questions and methods. Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Sunday, 7 June 2020 at 20:11 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis Hi Anthony, Fryer has an updated analysis on his webpage: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scholar.harvard.edu/fryer/publications__;!!Mih3wA!RJGsTBqGyZ49q-uXZET0wo-vNzwITxoXb-OyyUVY9zVv9eLx6elbQCX9pi9ciNCNIbKNlw$ Roland G Fryer J. Reconciling Results on Racial Differences in Police Shootings. American Economic Review (Papers and Proceedings). Forthcoming Here are his conclusions: IV. Conclusion The time has come for a national reckoning on race and policing in America. But, the issues are thorny and the conclusions one can draw about racial bias are fraught with difficulty. The most granular data suggest that there is no bias in police shootings (Fryer (forthcoming)), but these data are far from a representative sample of police departments and do not contain any experimental variation. We cannot rest. We need more and better data. With the advances in natural language processing and the increased willingness of police departments to share sensitive data, we can make progress. For those of us who desire a more perfect union, police use of force has become our Gettysburg. Of course, black lives matter as much as any other lives. Yet, we do this principle a disservice if we do not adhere to strict standards of evidence and take at face value descriptive statistics that are consistent with our preconceived ideas. ?Stay Woke? ? but critically so. Martin On Jun 7, 2020, at 12:42 PM, Anthony Barra > wrote: Hi Michael, Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 multivariate analysis, groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on the matter): https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html__;!!Mih3wA!RJGsTBqGyZ49q-uXZET0wo-vNzwITxoXb-OyyUVY9zVv9eLx6elbQCX9pi9ciNBkvxKxGg$ I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in graduate economics, though I could be mistaken there. I respect this community and in no way seek to bring dis- or misinformation into it, especially on topics that may require numerous key strokes just to get one's footing. Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's not argue. Anthony On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael > wrote: Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well founded social science. What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Bill Kerr Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis hi Anthony, I watched both videos. Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not disproportionate murder of black people. Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still not widely understood. Thank you On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate to! What a year so far. I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone potentially curious: First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!RJGsTBqGyZ49q-uXZET0wo-vNzwITxoXb-OyyUVY9zVv9eLx6elbQCX9pi9ciNCVuPRBZA$ featuring Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!RJGsTBqGyZ49q-uXZET0wo-vNzwITxoXb-OyyUVY9zVv9eLx6elbQCX9pi9ciNCzJ8oEQQ$ (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against the headwinds a fair amount. Thank you, Anthony On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them here and in the streets for a little while still. To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, shouldn't it? I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might appreciate. We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is just one. Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can rationalize their dear riot gear. Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in there? I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are protesting? There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to heavy. Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more of it. My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right to love one another. That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or right. That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us doesn't. I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. Thank you all in advance for your contributions. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200607/6a265b93/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Sun Jun 7 12:33:08 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 15:33:08 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: Thank you, Annalisa. I think what you say here about the real costs of 'waiting around for data' is quite beautiful: "I feel that this is a perhaps unintended reaction that has a consequence to prolong the lack of care our communities need. That is, to leisurely sit and debate about causes while the injured bleed to death. Maybe it's not appropriate to get "academic" about this right now. Maybe there is an emotional bypass going on. There's something very Cartesian about trying to solve a problem into parts as if doing so will provide clarity of cause. The worth of African American lives is not a mathematical proof. I feel this numbers talk dehumanizes people. At the same time, I'm not attempting to censor anyone. We need to talk. It is good." Talk is good, and as far as I'm currently aware, the so-called "Ferguson Effect" has turned out to be real. Unfortunately and terribly so, with its own real costs. So, as I believe you implied, there is indeed a balance to strike between the proverbial heart and head. Anthony On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello fellow gardeners of Us and Them, > > I have to agree with Michael, without meaning to put words in his mouth, > but I feel his meaning is, getting into arguments about statistics, when it > is well known there is injustice of profiling African American men and that > there are too many being murdered by police for no reason, doesn't mean > that murder of other colors is any less unsavory. Murder is murder, > corruption is corruption, injustice is injustice. > > Let's not get into suffering contests that go no where, "My suffering is > worse than yours," or "their suffering is worse than ours". That really > doesn't speak to the issue that clearly quacks like a duck. Or should we > argue whether it is a duck or not? > > Another problem I'm having in this reading to this discussion (not just on > this list), is to debate about the cause. Clearly the issue of any sort of > injustice doesn't have a neat and clean cause-and-effect rhythm. Oh, if > only we can change the cause we can alter its effects. But when something > happened (or didn't happen as the case may be) ~250+ years ago, it's hard > to time travel and change the history. Yes, we should understand it. > > Yet, when someone is bleeding from a gunshot wound, does it help at that > moment to ask "Who pulled the trigger?" > > I feel that this is a perhaps unintended reaction that has a consequence > to prolong the lack of care our communities need. That is, to leisurely sit > and debate about causes while the injured bleed to death. > > Maybe it's not appropriate to get "academic" about this right now. Maybe > there is an emotional bypass going on. > > There's something very Cartesian about trying to solve a problem into > parts as if doing so will provide clarity of cause. The worth of African > American lives is not a mathematical proof. I feel this numbers talk > dehumanizes people. > > At the same time, I'm not attempting to censor anyone. We need to talk. It > is good. > > I suppose I'm trying to raise awareness that there is something difficult > about all this when we have to revisit slavery as cause to what is > happening now. Perhaps it is about appropriateness. I'm not sure. > > Alica Garza appeared on Meet the Press today with appeals to defund the > police. The Guardian quotes her as saying: > > "When we talk about defunding the police, what we?re saying is invest in > the resources that our communities need,? she said. ?So much of policing > right now is generated and directed towards quality of life issues ... But > what we do need is increased funding for housing, we need increased funding > for education, we need increased funding for the quality of life of > communities who are over-policed and over-surveilled. > > ?... Black Lives Matter is not just a radical idea ? everyone can agree > that we don?t have the things that we need to live well, and that we are > using policing and law enforcement in a way that far exceeds its utility.? > > > In all honesty, I don't like wrangling the name "Black Lives Matter" > because I come from a place where all lives matter, including animals and > trees, and the oceans and land, our entire planet. Until we see that "That > is me" everywhere we look, we will always remain disconnected from others > and our environment and continue to "otherfy" into us and them. I don't > think Black Lives Matter is a radical idea, because I've always thought > that they matter. So I presume the audience to whom this speaks to are > those who don't think that they do. > > If you do think they matter already then what should we be doing to better > our society. What do you imagine is a solution? Cat got your tongue? What > is an action to take? > > What I like about Alicia's discourse is that she doesn't trip into the > statistics rabbit hole. This is again that liberal notion that if one cites > egregious statistics that's going to somehow get people riled up to act. It > doesn't work. Alicia offers a pathway to a SOLUTION. She uses her speech to > explain not what she IS AGAINST, but what she IS FOR. > > It's about quality of life. Is it so hard to see this? > > It very well may be that AA men are our canaries in the coalmine of our > society, are they returning dead in the cage after being lowered down the > shaft? That how the police are treating them is just a precursor of what > lay ahead for us if we do nothing. > > I'm on board with supporting anti-surveillance, and training for police to > set in stone they are SERVING their communities not monitoring communities. > > I also feel sad that in the way people who might want to express their > disdain for looting end up falling into suffering contest trap. This caused > an editor in Philadelphia to resign by equating buildings to AA lives in a > headline "Buildings Matter too." or something to that effect. I don't think > that that is what he meant by the headline, and I feel it's wrong to cancel > people out like that. It's cringe-worthy as a headline but should a > person's life be destroyed like that? If he intended to mean that, it would > be different, but I can't believe that he meant to intimate that meaning, > when the content of the article (as I understand) had to do with leaving a > hole in Philadelphia's body, and what would happen to the health of the > city from this kind of destruction? > > That is the trap of the naming of this movement and why I don't like it. > > I suppose there is something here that has to do with a notion about > property. And it is certainly foul to equate the worth of buildings with > that of a demographic of people whose forebears were treated like property. > > But what is the message that says, "Because police destroy black lives, I > will destroy your property" isn't that also making that kind of equation > about property? I'm not trying to insinuate anyone who is against looting > is making these kinds of equations, but does it mean we should be FOR > looting? > > I saw as well that I did not quite explain my Gone With the Wind > reference. Which was to say that in my teens the notion of looting was > introduced to me when I read that novel, a fictional account of the Civil > War. Being shot for looting was not something I could get my head around. > > I'm considering the subtexts and implied equations, and I wonder if they > are coherent at all? > > It's a little crazy making. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Glassman, Michael > *Sent:* Sunday, June 7, 2020 6:38 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. What > makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from very > early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have > strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few > key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. > > > > I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well founded > social science. > > > > What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was > one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to > proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The > list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is > possible in this day and age. > > > > These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Bill Kerr > *Sent:* Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > hi Anthony, > > I watched both videos. > > > > Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a > half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they > murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the > police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not > disproportionate murder of black people. > > > > Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, > that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, > and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, > arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American > DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from > the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. > > > > There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is one > of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from > the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they were > recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which led > to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency which > led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This history has > been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still > not widely understood. > > > > Thank you > > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, > and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate > to! What a year so far. > > > > I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone > potentially curious: > > First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!VdE7LZJazSEU5AIciYWRrE8OmFMw-yb91zmmlHtEQsxMr78j8qRTJ0A8bcGhdBG10KIJHw$ > featuring > Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link > that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) > > > > and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle > commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!VdE7LZJazSEU5AIciYWRrE8OmFMw-yb91zmmlHtEQsxMr78j8qRTJ0A8bcGhdBGhXdMT4A$ > > (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his > perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. > > > > Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these > videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against > the headwinds a fair amount. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, > > > > I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot > of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, > including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them > here and in the streets for a little while still. > > > > To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the > color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for > him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle > small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, > shouldn't it? > > > > I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we > must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter > violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky > chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with > flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? > > > > I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in > unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. > > > > NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! > > > > Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might > appreciate. > > > > We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of > desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is > just one. > > > > Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if > there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by > peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and > the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can > rationalize their dear riot gear. > > > > Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and > clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is > referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." > They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who > architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like > watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a > beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the > antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I > wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be > solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? > > > > I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember > coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in > 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed > looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. > Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. > > > > There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights > back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters cir > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200607/17425146/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Jun 7 13:20:13 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 20:20:13 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> , Message-ID: Anthony, I'm not up on my recent history so I looked up "The Ferguson Effect" and found this link: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_effect__;!!Mih3wA!Wrb5nztyxIWQJePOViDxdlXyf-Nz0lKCXr-Sq01UtuLKHM6CwQ-PEhrbx6gDrWe0Acj0DQ$ Which states that distrust of police has caused increase in crime, that "the criminal element is feeling empowered." I'm having a hard time with that phrase and its meaning, which was coined by the Dotson, St. Louis police chief, by the way. Why on earth would the police get to name the scenario for which they are the author and sole perpetrators of this particular form social injustice? That is like the rapist getting to decide what are the facts and consequences of his act of rape upon the victim. That makes no sense at all. If you want to really take it "to heart," why would the police do this to themselves? If the consequence of their actions was to "privilege" the "criminal element"? Should I say "poor, poor police officers!" ?? Intelligent leadership would agree that police reform is valid and that the police have to work HARDER to instill trust in their own communities. It's on them to reject bad cop behavior and to punish the "bad apples" who sully the officers who do actually provide service to their communities. (Also: Note the dehumanizing of the phrase "criminal element." Why not just say "criminals feel empowered." But it doesn't matter... Most criminals feel empowered, regardless of AA profiling. Or was he including "white collar criminal elements" too?) I'm not sure you are being appropriate at all. Please do not take my words and twist them, thank you. I disagree with you entirely in many ways, there isn't a need to balance head with heart, because that is the entire Cartesian fallacy, that head and heart are separated. It's not about balance, it's about appropriateness. What we need is holistic awareness of doing what has to be done in the here and now. Please wake up. What we are experiencing is what we have witnessed in "other countries" with authoritarian leaders: a strengthening of police for surveillance, monitoring, and control of the citizenry. When you look at the video of George Floyd or Eric Garner, or others being shot in the back, etc. you should instead think, "THAT is me, unless I do something about it." Do you want to live in a world where your neck has a police officer's knee upon it? Because that is what is coming for you but only unless you decide to do something about it. Here is something that is appropriate: "They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up." Niem?ller backed Hitler at first, remember. His "criminal element" was that he thought he was better than the others, he thought he was protected. He thought he was privileged. That he would never be taken away. What kind of world do you want anyway? What are you willing to do for change? What is *your* imagination on that? Have you any ideas at all? Or are we just chatting as something to pass time while in shelter? How do you plan to take action. Meaningful action. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Anthony Barra Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 1:33 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis [EXTERNAL] Thank you, Annalisa. I think what you say here about the real costs of 'waiting around for data' is quite beautiful: "I feel that this is a perhaps unintended reaction that has a consequence to prolong the lack of care our communities need. That is, to leisurely sit and debate about causes while the injured bleed to death. Maybe it's not appropriate to get "academic" about this right now. Maybe there is an emotional bypass going on. There's something very Cartesian about trying to solve a problem into parts as if doing so will provide clarity of cause. The worth of African American lives is not a mathematical proof. I feel this numbers talk dehumanizes people. At the same time, I'm not attempting to censor anyone. We need to talk. It is good." Talk is good, and as far as I'm currently aware, the so-called "Ferguson Effect" has turned out to be real. Unfortunately and terribly so, with its own real costs. So, as I believe you implied, there is indeed a balance to strike between the proverbial heart and head. Anthony On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello fellow gardeners of Us and Them, I have to agree with Michael, without meaning to put words in his mouth, but I feel his meaning is, getting into arguments about statistics, when it is well known there is injustice of profiling African American men and that there are too many being murdered by police for no reason, doesn't mean that murder of other colors is any less unsavory. Murder is murder, corruption is corruption, injustice is injustice. Let's not get into suffering contests that go no where, "My suffering is worse than yours," or "their suffering is worse than ours". That really doesn't speak to the issue that clearly quacks like a duck. Or should we argue whether it is a duck or not? Another problem I'm having in this reading to this discussion (not just on this list), is to debate about the cause. Clearly the issue of any sort of injustice doesn't have a neat and clean cause-and-effect rhythm. Oh, if only we can change the cause we can alter its effects. But when something happened (or didn't happen as the case may be) ~250+ years ago, it's hard to time travel and change the history. Yes, we should understand it. Yet, when someone is bleeding from a gunshot wound, does it help at that moment to ask "Who pulled the trigger?" I feel that this is a perhaps unintended reaction that has a consequence to prolong the lack of care our communities need. That is, to leisurely sit and debate about causes while the injured bleed to death. Maybe it's not appropriate to get "academic" about this right now. Maybe there is an emotional bypass going on. There's something very Cartesian about trying to solve a problem into parts as if doing so will provide clarity of cause. The worth of African American lives is not a mathematical proof. I feel this numbers talk dehumanizes people. At the same time, I'm not attempting to censor anyone. We need to talk. It is good. I suppose I'm trying to raise awareness that there is something difficult about all this when we have to revisit slavery as cause to what is happening now. Perhaps it is about appropriateness. I'm not sure. Alica Garza appeared on Meet the Press today with appeals to defund the police. The Guardian quotes her as saying: "When we talk about defunding the police, what we?re saying is invest in the resources that our communities need,? she said. ?So much of policing right now is generated and directed towards quality of life issues ... But what we do need is increased funding for housing, we need increased funding for education, we need increased funding for the quality of life of communities who are over-policed and over-surveilled. ?... Black Lives Matter is not just a radical idea ? everyone can agree that we don?t have the things that we need to live well, and that we are using policing and law enforcement in a way that far exceeds its utility.? In all honesty, I don't like wrangling the name "Black Lives Matter" because I come from a place where all lives matter, including animals and trees, and the oceans and land, our entire planet. Until we see that "That is me" everywhere we look, we will always remain disconnected from others and our environment and continue to "otherfy" into us and them. I don't think Black Lives Matter is a radical idea, because I've always thought that they matter. So I presume the audience to whom this speaks to are those who don't think that they do. If you do think they matter already then what should we be doing to better our society. What do you imagine is a solution? Cat got your tongue? What is an action to take? What I like about Alicia's discourse is that she doesn't trip into the statistics rabbit hole. This is again that liberal notion that if one cites egregious statistics that's going to somehow get people riled up to act. It doesn't work. Alicia offers a pathway to a SOLUTION. She uses her speech to explain not what she IS AGAINST, but what she IS FOR. It's about quality of life. Is it so hard to see this? It very well may be that AA men are our canaries in the coalmine of our society, are they returning dead in the cage after being lowered down the shaft? That how the police are treating them is just a precursor of what lay ahead for us if we do nothing. I'm on board with supporting anti-surveillance, and training for police to set in stone they are SERVING their communities not monitoring communities. I also feel sad that in the way people who might want to express their disdain for looting end up falling into suffering contest trap. This caused an editor in Philadelphia to resign by equating buildings to AA lives in a headline "Buildings Matter too." or something to that effect. I don't think that that is what he meant by the headline, and I feel it's wrong to cancel people out like that. It's cringe-worthy as a headline but should a person's life be destroyed like that? If he intended to mean that, it would be different, but I can't believe that he meant to intimate that meaning, when the content of the article (as I understand) had to do with leaving a hole in Philadelphia's body, and what would happen to the health of the city from this kind of destruction? That is the trap of the naming of this movement and why I don't like it. I suppose there is something here that has to do with a notion about property. And it is certainly foul to equate the worth of buildings with that of a demographic of people whose forebears were treated like property. But what is the message that says, "Because police destroy black lives, I will destroy your property" isn't that also making that kind of equation about property? I'm not trying to insinuate anyone who is against looting is making these kinds of equations, but does it mean we should be FOR looting? I saw as well that I did not quite explain my Gone With the Wind reference. Which was to say that in my teens the notion of looting was introduced to me when I read that novel, a fictional account of the Civil War. Being shot for looting was not something I could get my head around. I'm considering the subtexts and implied equations, and I wonder if they are coherent at all? It's a little crazy making. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Glassman, Michael > Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 6:38 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis [EXTERNAL] Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well founded social science. What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Bill Kerr Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis hi Anthony, I watched both videos. Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not disproportionate murder of black people. Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still not widely understood. Thank you On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate to! What a year so far. I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone potentially curious: First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!Wrb5nztyxIWQJePOViDxdlXyf-Nz0lKCXr-Sq01UtuLKHM6CwQ-PEhrbx6gDrWe-3yaaDw$ featuring Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!Wrb5nztyxIWQJePOViDxdlXyf-Nz0lKCXr-Sq01UtuLKHM6CwQ-PEhrbx6gDrWcMrNnXow$ (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against the headwinds a fair amount. Thank you, Anthony On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them here and in the streets for a little while still. To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, shouldn't it? I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might appreciate. We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is just one. Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can rationalize their dear riot gear. Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters cir -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200607/14624aa6/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun Jun 7 13:26:27 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 05:26:27 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: There is hard evidence that criminal elements are empowered by protests: criminal elements in "law enforcement" that is. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/06/video-officers-slashing-tires-minneapolis-protests.html__;!!Mih3wA!Xg88O-VI78dVBzFH4qkTTrPz4V4L9hTV7PL8it682OJ_-GDfr_ZIPPdLeb9MSkPV2W94BA$ David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Xg88O-VI78dVBzFH4qkTTrPz4V4L9hTV7PL8it682OJ_-GDfr_ZIPPdLeb9MSkMJqvoBBA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Xg88O-VI78dVBzFH4qkTTrPz4V4L9hTV7PL8it682OJ_-GDfr_ZIPPdLeb9MSkOvXkzcQQ$ On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 5:22 AM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Anthony, > > I'm not up on my recent history so I looked up "The Ferguson Effect" and > found this link: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_effect__;!!Mih3wA!Xg88O-VI78dVBzFH4qkTTrPz4V4L9hTV7PL8it682OJ_-GDfr_ZIPPdLeb9MSkODJupOUg$ > > > Which states that distrust of police has caused increase in crime, that "the > criminal element is feeling empowered." I'm having a hard time with that > phrase and its meaning, which was coined by the Dotson, St. Louis police > chief, by the way. > > Why on earth would the police get to name the scenario for which they are > the author and sole perpetrators of this particular form social injustice? > That is like the rapist getting to decide what are the facts and > consequences of his act of rape upon the victim. That makes no sense at all. > > If you want to really take it "to heart," why would the police do this to > themselves? If the consequence of their actions was to "privilege" the > "criminal element"? Should I say "poor, poor police officers!" ?? > Intelligent leadership would agree that police reform is valid and that the > police have to work HARDER to instill trust in their own communities. It's > on them to reject bad cop behavior and to punish the "bad apples" who sully > the officers who do actually provide service to their communities. > > (Also: Note the dehumanizing of the phrase "criminal element." Why not > just say "criminals feel empowered." But it doesn't matter... Most > criminals feel empowered, regardless of AA profiling. Or was he including > "white collar criminal elements" too?) > > > I'm not sure you are being appropriate at all. Please do not take my words > and twist them, thank you. > > I disagree with you entirely in many ways, there isn't a need to balance > head with heart, because that is the entire Cartesian fallacy, that head > and heart are separated. It's not about balance, it's about > appropriateness. > > What we need is holistic awareness of doing what has to be done in the > here and now. > > Please wake up. What we are experiencing is what we have witnessed in > "other countries" with authoritarian leaders: a strengthening of police for > surveillance, monitoring, and control of the citizenry. When you look at > the video of George Floyd or Eric Garner, or others being shot in the back, > etc. you should instead think, "THAT is me, unless I do something about > it." > > Do you want to live in a world where your neck has a police officer's knee > upon it? Because that is what is coming for you but only unless you decide > to do something about it. > > Here is something that is appropriate: > > "They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I > wasn't a Communist. > > Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. > > Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I > wasn't a trade unionist. > > Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a > Protestant. > > Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up." > > > > Niem?ller backed Hitler at first, remember. His "criminal element" was > that he thought he was better than the others, he thought he was protected. > He thought he was privileged. That he would never be taken away. > > What kind of world do you want anyway? > > What are you willing to do for change? > > What is *your* imagination on that? > > Have you any ideas at all? > > Or are we just chatting as something to pass time while in shelter? > > How do you plan to take action. > > Meaningful action. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Anthony Barra > *Sent:* Sunday, June 7, 2020 1:33 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Thank you, Annalisa. I think what you say here about the real costs of > 'waiting around for data' is quite beautiful: > "I feel that this is a perhaps unintended reaction that has a consequence > to prolong the lack of care our communities need. That is, to leisurely sit > and debate about causes while the injured bleed to death. > > Maybe it's not appropriate to get "academic" about this right now. Maybe > there is an emotional bypass going on. > > There's something very Cartesian about trying to solve a problem into > parts as if doing so will provide clarity of cause. The worth of African > American lives is not a mathematical proof. I feel this numbers talk > dehumanizes people. > > At the same time, I'm not attempting to censor anyone. We need to talk. It > is good." > > Talk is good, and as far as I'm currently aware, the so-called "Ferguson > Effect" has turned out to be real. Unfortunately and terribly so, with its > own real costs. > > So, as I believe you implied, there is indeed a balance to strike between > the proverbial heart and head. > > Anthony > > > > On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hello fellow gardeners of Us and Them, > > I have to agree with Michael, without meaning to put words in his mouth, > but I feel his meaning is, getting into arguments about statistics, when it > is well known there is injustice of profiling African American men and that > there are too many being murdered by police for no reason, doesn't mean > that murder of other colors is any less unsavory. Murder is murder, > corruption is corruption, injustice is injustice. > > Let's not get into suffering contests that go no where, "My suffering is > worse than yours," or "their suffering is worse than ours". That really > doesn't speak to the issue that clearly quacks like a duck. Or should we > argue whether it is a duck or not? > > Another problem I'm having in this reading to this discussion (not just on > this list), is to debate about the cause. Clearly the issue of any sort of > injustice doesn't have a neat and clean cause-and-effect rhythm. Oh, if > only we can change the cause we can alter its effects. But when something > happened (or didn't happen as the case may be) ~250+ years ago, it's hard > to time travel and change the history. Yes, we should understand it. > > Yet, when someone is bleeding from a gunshot wound, does it help at that > moment to ask "Who pulled the trigger?" > > I feel that this is a perhaps unintended reaction that has a consequence > to prolong the lack of care our communities need. That is, to leisurely sit > and debate about causes while the injured bleed to death. > > Maybe it's not appropriate to get "academic" about this right now. Maybe > there is an emotional bypass going on. > > There's something very Cartesian about trying to solve a problem into > parts as if doing so will provide clarity of cause. The worth of African > American lives is not a mathematical proof. I feel this numbers talk > dehumanizes people. > > At the same time, I'm not attempting to censor anyone. We need to talk. It > is good. > > I suppose I'm trying to raise awareness that there is something difficult > about all this when we have to revisit slavery as cause to what is > happening now. Perhaps it is about appropriateness. I'm not sure. > > Alica Garza appeared on Meet the Press today with appeals to defund the > police. The Guardian quotes her as saying: > > "When we talk about defunding the police, what we?re saying is invest in > the resources that our communities need,? she said. ?So much of policing > right now is generated and directed towards quality of life issues ... But > what we do need is increased funding for housing, we need increased funding > for education, we need increased funding for the quality of life of > communities who are over-policed and over-surveilled. > > ?... Black Lives Matter is not just a radical idea ? everyone can agree > that we don?t have the things that we need to live well, and that we are > using policing and law enforcement in a way that far exceeds its utility.? > > > In all honesty, I don't like wrangling the name "Black Lives Matter" > because I come from a place where all lives matter, including animals and > trees, and the oceans and land, our entire planet. Until we see that "That > is me" everywhere we look, we will always remain disconnected from others > and our environment and continue to "otherfy" into us and them. I don't > think Black Lives Matter is a radical idea, because I've always thought > that they matter. So I presume the audience to whom this speaks to are > those who don't think that they do. > > If you do think they matter already then what should we be doing to better > our society. What do you imagine is a solution? Cat got your tongue? What > is an action to take? > > What I like about Alicia's discourse is that she doesn't trip into the > statistics rabbit hole. This is again that liberal notion that if one cites > egregious statistics that's going to somehow get people riled up to act. It > doesn't work. Alicia offers a pathway to a SOLUTION. She uses her speech to > explain not what she IS AGAINST, but what she IS FOR. > > It's about quality of life. Is it so hard to see this? > > It very well may be that AA men are our canaries in the coalmine of our > society, are they returning dead in the cage after being lowered down the > shaft? That how the police are treating them is just a precursor of what > lay ahead for us if we do nothing. > > I'm on board with supporting anti-surveillance, and training for police to > set in stone they are SERVING their communities not monitoring communities. > > I also feel sad that in the way people who might want to express their > disdain for looting end up falling into suffering contest trap. This caused > an editor in Philadelphia to resign by equating buildings to AA lives in a > headline "Buildings Matter too." or something to that effect. I don't think > that that is what he meant by the headline, and I feel it's wrong to cancel > people out like that. It's cringe-worthy as a headline but should a > person's life be destroyed like that? If he intended to mean that, it would > be different, but I can't believe that he meant to intimate that meaning, > when the content of the article (as I understand) had to do with leaving a > hole in Philadelphia's body, and what would happen to the health of the > city from this kind of destruction? > > That is the trap of the naming of this movement and why I don't like it. > > I suppose there is something here that has to do with a notion about > property. And it is certainly foul to equate the worth of buildings with > that of a demographic of people whose forebears were treated like property. > > But what is the message that says, "Because police destroy black lives, I > will destroy your property" isn't that also making that kind of equation > about property? I'm not trying to insinuate anyone who is against looting > is making these kinds of equations, but does it mean we should be FOR > looting? > > I saw as well that I did not quite explain my Gone With the Wind > reference. Which was to say that in my teens the notion of looting was > introduced to me when I read that novel, a fictional account of the Civil > War. Being shot for looting was not something I could get my head around. > > I'm considering the subtexts and implied equations, and I wonder if they > are coherent at all? > > It's a little crazy making. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Glassman, Michael > *Sent:* Sunday, June 7, 2020 6:38 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. What > makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from very > early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have > strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few > key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. > > > > I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well founded > social science. > > > > What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was > one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to > proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The > list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is > possible in this day and age. > > > > These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Bill Kerr > *Sent:* Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > hi Anthony, > > I watched both videos. > > > > Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a > half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they > murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the > police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not > disproportionate murder of black people. > > > > Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, > that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, > and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, > arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American > DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from > the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. > > > > There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is one > of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from > the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they were > recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which led > to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency which > led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This history has > been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still > not widely understood. > > > > Thank you > > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, > and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate > to! What a year so far. > > > > I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone > potentially curious: > > First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!Xg88O-VI78dVBzFH4qkTTrPz4V4L9hTV7PL8it682OJ_-GDfr_ZIPPdLeb9MSkOtyBhoSQ$ > featuring > Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link > that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) > > > > and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle > commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!Xg88O-VI78dVBzFH4qkTTrPz4V4L9hTV7PL8it682OJ_-GDfr_ZIPPdLeb9MSkOUydN6Sw$ > > (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his > perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. > > > > Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these > videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against > the headwinds a fair amount. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, > > > > I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot > of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, > including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them > here and in the streets for a little while still. > > > > To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the > color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for > him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle > small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, > shouldn't it? > > > > I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we > must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter > violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky > chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with > flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? > > > > I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in > unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. > > > > NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! > > > > Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might > appreciate. > > > > We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of > desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is > just one. > > > > Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if > there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by > peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and > the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can > rationalize their dear riot gear. > > > > Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and > clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is > referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." > They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who > architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like > watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a > beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the > antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I > wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be > solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? > > > > I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember > coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in > 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed > looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. > Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. > > > > There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights > back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters cir > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200608/90143fe2/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Jun 7 13:38:26 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 20:38:26 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <81E6CF72-BA9A-4A03-A34E-BE58C4767DDA@uio.no> References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <9AC5F246-B3DF-4AAE-96A3-3413C37568CE@cantab.net>, <81E6CF72-BA9A-4A03-A34E-BE58C4767DDA@uio.no> Message-ID: Hi Alfredo and venerable others, I want to know if there is something to be done. Something we can do in our own communities. Is it about writing letters and throwing our support at various levels of government concerning police brutality in our communities? Writing your board of supervisors, your mayor, your state legislators, congresspeople and senators of your state (If you are in the US). I mean it seems futile to write letters, but I might argue that the Vietnam War ended not from protest because of defunding by Congress. Though I do acknowledge that true academic pursuit cannot but include social justice. I feel we must create choices other than a belief that the only actions are to deliver a Molotov Cocktail into a police car. That act doesn't work even on a symbolic level. Perhaps this is a good and worthy strategy to just write a letter of concern and request for real change. If you can't do it alone, then make up a group and write a letter together. So how about: Start a dialogue with someone off this list and use the power of your words to speak truth to power. Silence is violence. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 1:29 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis [EXTERNAL] Thanks Anthony and all. I agree with Annalisa that we cannot and should not reduce the issue to statistics, to who?s got them bigger. If one was to try, though, one can find other studies arguing that there is an important disproportion: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2016.303575__;!!Mih3wA!T6hvNacPHD4MNGB6NJsuJAi2gInI665QTiygNp8Az9Fl975xvTEki0p11tzeNKiY_cDbhg$ --- or showing that there not only are more killings by police, but that police?s killing of others impact men and women of color?s mental health disproportionally more: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673618311309?casa_token=HmfTJf26m_8AAAAA:02hbAWacoaIeoTMt1oEId4T2pSgud_ZCd481ey9Wsqg9OD6Ul5gnUGBeP2U87Lcd4e0d8f4q5Q__;!!Mih3wA!T6hvNacPHD4MNGB6NJsuJAi2gInI665QTiygNp8Az9Fl975xvTEki0p11tzeNKg4AdDtvg$ So data is important, and we must stay woke in a critical way, as Martin?s quotation suggests. But I think Annalisa?s point is crucial: it is at least curious that we would be talking about the statistics rather than listening and responding and being response-able to a social reality we can see with our eyes in ways that can open for more just societies. I hear Annalisa?s call to be ?less academic?, but I think that being academic should be precisely about that, not just the rigor, but the striving towards justice too. I think that finding ways, in the social sciences, to be responsive and response-able to the circumstances we are living demands of lots of empathy and imagination to be able to pose the adequate research questions and methods. Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Sunday, 7 June 2020 at 20:11 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis Hi Anthony, Fryer has an updated analysis on his webpage: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scholar.harvard.edu/fryer/publications__;!!Mih3wA!T6hvNacPHD4MNGB6NJsuJAi2gInI665QTiygNp8Az9Fl975xvTEki0p11tzeNKivt92B5A$ Roland G Fryer J. Reconciling Results on Racial Differences in Police Shootings. American Economic Review (Papers and Proceedings). Forthcoming Here are his conclusions: IV. Conclusion The time has come for a national reckoning on race and policing in America. But, the issues are thorny and the conclusions one can draw about racial bias are fraught with difficulty. The most granular data suggest that there is no bias in police shootings (Fryer (forthcoming)), but these data are far from a representative sample of police departments and do not contain any experimental variation. We cannot rest. We need more and better data. With the advances in natural language processing and the increased willingness of police departments to share sensitive data, we can make progress. For those of us who desire a more perfect union, police use of force has become our Gettysburg. Of course, black lives matter as much as any other lives. Yet, we do this principle a disservice if we do not adhere to strict standards of evidence and take at face value descriptive statistics that are consistent with our preconceived ideas. ?Stay Woke? ? but critically so. Martin On Jun 7, 2020, at 12:42 PM, Anthony Barra > wrote: Hi Michael, Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 multivariate analysis, groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on the matter): https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html__;!!Mih3wA!T6hvNacPHD4MNGB6NJsuJAi2gInI665QTiygNp8Az9Fl975xvTEki0p11tzeNKi7EcLQ5w$ I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in graduate economics, though I could be mistaken there. I respect this community and in no way seek to bring dis- or misinformation into it, especially on topics that may require numerous key strokes just to get one's footing. Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's not argue. Anthony On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael > wrote: Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well founded social science. What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Bill Kerr Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis hi Anthony, I watched both videos. Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not disproportionate murder of black people. Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still not widely understood. Thank you On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate to! What a year so far. I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone potentially curious: First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!T6hvNacPHD4MNGB6NJsuJAi2gInI665QTiygNp8Az9Fl975xvTEki0p11tzeNKhdeEFhAg$ featuring Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!T6hvNacPHD4MNGB6NJsuJAi2gInI665QTiygNp8Az9Fl975xvTEki0p11tzeNKg7Xwb7mw$ (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against the headwinds a fair amount. Thank you, Anthony On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them here and in the streets for a little while still. To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, shouldn't it? I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might appreciate. We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is just one. Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can rationalize their dear riot gear. Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in there? I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are protesting? There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to heavy. Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more of it. My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right to love one another. That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or right. That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us doesn't. I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. Thank you all in advance for your contributions. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200607/a674d9e9/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Jun 7 13:58:53 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 20:58:53 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] An idea for requesting accountability in our community Message-ID: Hello venerable others (or as Henry might simply say, gente): How does one learn about individual cases about police brutality (PB) in one's community? Who watches over the police? What is the typical process in place to review and hold accountable bad actors? There must be someone who hold the dog on a leash somewhere. Would someone help educate me (us)? Kind regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200607/4599bda7/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Sun Jun 7 14:20:44 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 17:20:44 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: Ok. Thank you for your feedback. On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Anthony, > > I'm not up on my recent history so I looked up "The Ferguson Effect" and > found this link: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_effect__;!!Mih3wA!V-GgUXmlvGXuow_ScLz-5FuclmHmcW9Mura4Tk51-2cTRpVFOSSWawu-q_HJaWgXjMLw3Q$ > > > Which states that distrust of police has caused increase in crime, that "the > criminal element is feeling empowered." I'm having a hard time with that > phrase and its meaning, which was coined by the Dotson, St. Louis police > chief, by the way. > > Why on earth would the police get to name the scenario for which they are > the author and sole perpetrators of this particular form social injustice? > That is like the rapist getting to decide what are the facts and > consequences of his act of rape upon the victim. That makes no sense at all. > > If you want to really take it "to heart," why would the police do this to > themselves? If the consequence of their actions was to "privilege" the > "criminal element"? Should I say "poor, poor police officers!" ?? > Intelligent leadership would agree that police reform is valid and that the > police have to work HARDER to instill trust in their own communities. It's > on them to reject bad cop behavior and to punish the "bad apples" who sully > the officers who do actually provide service to their communities. > > (Also: Note the dehumanizing of the phrase "criminal element." Why not > just say "criminals feel empowered." But it doesn't matter... Most > criminals feel empowered, regardless of AA profiling. Or was he including > "white collar criminal elements" too?) > > > I'm not sure you are being appropriate at all. Please do not take my words > and twist them, thank you. > > I disagree with you entirely in many ways, there isn't a need to balance > head with heart, because that is the entire Cartesian fallacy, that head > and heart are separated. It's not about balance, it's about > appropriateness. > > What we need is holistic awareness of doing what has to be done in the > here and now. > > Please wake up. What we are experiencing is what we have witnessed in > "other countries" with authoritarian leaders: a strengthening of police for > surveillance, monitoring, and control of the citizenry. When you look at > the video of George Floyd or Eric Garner, or others being shot in the back, > etc. you should instead think, "THAT is me, unless I do something about > it." > > Do you want to live in a world where your neck has a police officer's knee > upon it? Because that is what is coming for you but only unless you decide > to do something about it. > > Here is something that is appropriate: > > "They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I > wasn't a Communist. > > Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. > > Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I > wasn't a trade unionist. > > Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a > Protestant. > > Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up." > > > > Niem?ller backed Hitler at first, remember. His "criminal element" was > that he thought he was better than the others, he thought he was protected. > He thought he was privileged. That he would never be taken away. > > What kind of world do you want anyway? > > What are you willing to do for change? > > What is *your* imagination on that? > > Have you any ideas at all? > > Or are we just chatting as something to pass time while in shelter? > > How do you plan to take action. > > Meaningful action. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Anthony Barra > *Sent:* Sunday, June 7, 2020 1:33 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Thank you, Annalisa. I think what you say here about the real costs of > 'waiting around for data' is quite beautiful: > "I feel that this is a perhaps unintended reaction that has a consequence > to prolong the lack of care our communities need. That is, to leisurely sit > and debate about causes while the injured bleed to death. > > Maybe it's not appropriate to get "academic" about this right now. Maybe > there is an emotional bypass going on. > > There's something very Cartesian about trying to solve a problem into > parts as if doing so will provide clarity of cause. The worth of African > American lives is not a mathematical proof. I feel this numbers talk > dehumanizes people. > > At the same time, I'm not attempting to censor anyone. We need to talk. It > is good." > > Talk is good, and as far as I'm currently aware, the so-called "Ferguson > Effect" has turned out to be real. Unfortunately and terribly so, with its > own real costs. > > So, as I believe you implied, there is indeed a balance to strike between > the proverbial heart and head. > > Anthony > > > > On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hello fellow gardeners of Us and Them, > > I have to agree with Michael, without meaning to put words in his mouth, > but I feel his meaning is, getting into arguments about statistics, when it > is well known there is injustice of profiling African American men and that > there are too many being murdered by police for no reason, doesn't mean > that murder of other colors is any less unsavory. Murder is murder, > corruption is corruption, injustice is injustice. > > Let's not get into suffering contests that go no where, "My suffering is > worse than yours," or "their suffering is worse than ours". That really > doesn't speak to the issue that clearly quacks like a duck. Or should we > argue whether it is a duck or not? > > Another problem I'm having in this reading to this discussion (not just on > this list), is to debate about the cause. Clearly the issue of any sort of > injustice doesn't have a neat and clean cause-and-effect rhythm. Oh, if > only we can change the cause we can alter its effects. But when something > happened (or didn't happen as the case may be) ~250+ years ago, it's hard > to time travel and change the history. Yes, we should understand it. > > Yet, when someone is bleeding from a gunshot wound, does it help at that > moment to ask "Who pulled the trigger?" > > I feel that this is a perhaps unintended reaction that has a consequ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200607/00cb558e/attachment.html From haydizulfei@gmail.com Sun Jun 7 15:43:25 2020 From: haydizulfei@gmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 03:13:25 +0430 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <9AC5F246-B3DF-4AAE-96A3-3413C37568CE@cantab.net> <81E6CF72-BA9A-4A03-A34E-BE58C4767DDA@uio.no> Message-ID: Hi All, I forgot to use my gmail. Please trust the other e-mail with the rocketmail. Best wishes Haydi On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 1:10 AM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Alfredo and venerable others, > > I want to know if there is something to be done. Something we can do in > our own communities. > > Is it about writing letters and throwing our support at various levels of > government concerning police brutality in our communities? > > Writing your board of supervisors, your mayor, your state legislators, > congresspeople and senators of your state (If you are in the US). > > I mean it seems futile to write letters, but I might argue that the > Vietnam War ended not from protest because of defunding by Congress. > > Though I do acknowledge that true academic pursuit cannot but include > social justice. I feel we must create choices other than a belief that the > only actions are to deliver a Molotov Cocktail into a police car. That act > doesn't work even on a symbolic level. > > Perhaps this is a good and worthy strategy to just write a letter of > concern and request for real change. If you can't do it alone, then make up > a group and write a letter together. > > So how about: Start a dialogue with someone off this list and use the > power of your words to speak truth to power. > > Silence is violence. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > *Sent:* Sunday, June 7, 2020 1:29 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Thanks Anthony and all. I agree with Annalisa that we cannot and should > not reduce the issue to statistics, to who?s got them bigger. If one was to > try, though, one can find other studies arguing that there is an important > disproportion: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2016.303575__;!!Mih3wA!X4kj6d30RkDuSakXVroTiazU71mDaLVGnfAQMZirE58VzqwrSUm-14PPzmTMq2Kn3PkUeg$ > > --- or showing that there not only are more killings by police, but that > police?s killing of others impact men and women of color?s mental health > disproportionally more: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673618311309?casa_token=HmfTJf26m_8AAAAA:02hbAWacoaIeoTMt1oEId4T2pSgud_ZCd481ey9Wsqg9OD6Ul5gnUGBeP2U87Lcd4e0d8f4q5Q__;!!Mih3wA!X4kj6d30RkDuSakXVroTiazU71mDaLVGnfAQMZirE58VzqwrSUm-14PPzmTMq2IChvmU1Q$ > > > > > So data is important, and we must stay woke in a critical way, as Martin?s > quotation suggests. But I think Annalisa?s point is crucial: it is at least > curious that we would be talking about the statistics rather than listening > and responding and being response-able to a social reality we can see with > our eyes in ways that can open for more just societies. I hear Annalisa?s > call to be ?less academic?, but I think that being academic should be > precisely about that, not just the rigor, but the striving towards justice > too. I think that finding ways, in the social sciences, to be responsive > and response-able to the circumstances we are living demands of lots of > empathy and imagination to be able to pose the adequate research questions > and methods. > > > > Alfredo > > > > > > *From: * on behalf of Martin Packer < > mpacker@cantab.net> > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Sunday, 7 June 2020 at 20:11 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > Hi Anthony, > > > > Fryer has an updated analysis on his webpage: > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scholar.harvard.edu/fryer/publications__;!!Mih3wA!X4kj6d30RkDuSakXVroTiazU71mDaLVGnfAQMZirE58VzqwrSUm-14PPzmTMq2ImG8L-Iw$ > > > > > Roland G Fryer J. Reconciling Results on Racial Differences in Police > Shootings > . > American Economic Review (Papers and Proceedings). Forthcoming > > > > Here are his conclusions: > > IV. Conclusion > > The time has come for a national reckoning on race and policing in > America. But, the issues are thorny and the conclusions one can draw about > racial bias are fraught with difficulty. The most granular data suggest > that there is no bias in police shootings (Fryer (forthcoming)), but > these data are far from a representative sample of police departments and > do not contain any experimental variation. We cannot rest. We need more and > better data. With the advances in natural language processing and the > increased willingness of police departments to share sensitive data, we can > make progress. > > For those of us who desire a more perfect union, police use of force has > become our Gettysburg. Of course, black lives matter as much as any other > lives. Yet, we do this principle a disservice if we do not adhere to strict > standards of evidence and take at face value descriptive statistics that > are consistent with our preconceived ideas. ?Stay Woke? ? but critically so. > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 7, 2020, at 12:42 PM, Anthony Barra > wrote: > > > > Hi Michael, > > > > Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 multivariate analysis, > groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on > the matter): > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html__;!!Mih3wA!X4kj6d30RkDuSakXVroTiazU71mDaLVGnfAQMZirE58VzqwrSUm-14PPzmTMq2Jre8jiBg$ > > > > > > I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in graduate economics, though I > could be mistaken there. > > > > I respect this community and in no way seek to bring dis- or > misinformation into it, especially on topics that may require numerous key > strokes just to get one's footing. > > > > Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's not argue. > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. What > makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from very > early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have > strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few > key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. > > > > I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well founded > social science. > > > > What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was > one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to > proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The > list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is > possible in this day and age. > > > > These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Bill Kerr > *Sent:* Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > hi Anthony, > > I watched both videos. > > > > Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a > half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they > murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the > police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not > disproportionate murder of black people. > > > > Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, > that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, > and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, > arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American > DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from > the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. > > > > There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is one > of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from > the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they were > recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which led > to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency which > led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This history has > been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still > not widely understood. > > > > Thank you > > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, > and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate > to! What a year so far. > > > > I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone > potentially curious: > > First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!X4kj6d30RkDuSakXVroTiazU71mDaLVGnfAQMZirE58VzqwrSUm-14PPzmTMq2LD15NbwQ$ > featuring > Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link > that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) > > > > and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle > commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!X4kj6d30RkDuSakXVroTiazU71mDaLVGnfAQMZirE58VzqwrSUm-14PPzmTMq2KnBkxT7A$ > > (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his > perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. > > > > Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these > videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against > the headwinds a fair amount. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, > > > > I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot > of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, > including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them > here and in the streets for a little while still. > > > > To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the > color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for > him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle > small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, > shouldn't it? > > > > I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we > must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter > violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky > chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with > flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? > > > > I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in > unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. > > > > NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! > > > > Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might > appreciate. > > > > We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of > desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is > just one. > > > > Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if > there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by > peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and > the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can > rationalize their dear riot gear. > > > > Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and > clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is > referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." > They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who > architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like > watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a > beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the > antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I > wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be > solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? > > > > I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember > coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in > 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed > looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. > Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. > > > > There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights > back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This morning > I drove down a street with many business having their windows boarded up. > There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think these folks are > fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the night by a > fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that street. But > then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought maybe they are > just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in there? > > > > I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray paint > on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in a > gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. > > > > I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are > protesting? > > > > There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African > American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the > world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, > well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those > people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." > I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe > it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it > will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." > > > > I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting > dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. > > > > My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire > point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built > upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this > color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from > another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to > heavy. > > > > Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more > of it. > > > > My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far > more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever > fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways > the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being > institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. > > > > The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental > exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. > > > > I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how > would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like > now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled > even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? > > > > The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human > rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right > to love one another. > > > > That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us > matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or > right. > > > > That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us > doesn't. > > > > I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to vocalize > that we have an open wound that needs dressing. > > > > Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where > Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until > Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, > if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. > > > > I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change > might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. > > > > Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way > to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. > > > > Thank you all in advance for your contributions. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200608/6744c1c4/attachment.html From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Jun 7 16:04:01 2020 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 17:04:01 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: Anthony, I'd suggest that it is best to start at the source rather than someone else's interpretation since most media outlets are terrible at understanding science (oh, and I couldn't access the article b.c. of paywall - are you a subscriber to the "failing" New York Times?). Here is the link to the original article: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/fryer/files/empirical_analysis_tables_figures.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!UtOX2RWR53YmpMflA98_L7glFVNqqXmFrnD_8Tc68VxB70EEs8DZr5g9LSeKgjRa91MrpQ$ If you are interested in critically engaging with this (I'm not), here is the critical sentence: "On the most extreme use of force ? officer-involved shootings ? we find no racial differences in either the raw data or when contextual factors are taken into account." I would suggest that you dig into what the author means by "when contextual factors are taken into account." There are all kinds of games that you can play with numbers in the name of "controlling" for differences. The point here is that this is not a straight "let's compare the numbers", it is more of a "well, let's adjust these numbers since this group has this factor that might lead to more likely shootings and that group has this factor that might lead to fewer shootings." The devil is in the details that are being "controlled" for and why the author is choosing the things that they are choosing. It's tough sleuthing work to dig into studies like this but it can be very rewarding to do so because then YOU can decide whether you think these assumptions are reasonable. And if you don't want to do the work yourself (I wouldn't blame you), in two seconds I found this critique of Fryer by a colleague: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scholar.harvard.edu/jfeldman/blog/roland-fryer-wrong-there-racial-bias-shootings-police__;!!Mih3wA!UtOX2RWR53YmpMflA98_L7glFVNqqXmFrnD_8Tc68VxB70EEs8DZr5g9LSeKgjSiIIWXlA$ I'd be curious what you come up with after digging into this debate, so please do share with us what you find! -greg On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 11:45 AM Anthony Barra wrote: > Hi Michael, > > Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 multivariate analysis, > groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on > the matter): > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html__;!!Mih3wA!UtOX2RWR53YmpMflA98_L7glFVNqqXmFrnD_8Tc68VxB70EEs8DZr5g9LSeKgjQ3VdXPxA$ > > > > I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in graduate economics, though I > could be mistaken there. > > I respect this community and in no way seek to bring dis- or > misinformation into it, especially on topics that may require numerous key > strokes just to get one's footing. > > Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's not argue. > > Anthony > > > > On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael wrote: > >> Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. What >> makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from very >> early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have >> strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few >> key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. >> >> >> >> I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well >> founded social science. >> >> >> >> What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was >> one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to >> proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The >> list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is >> possible in this day and age. >> >> >> >> These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. >> >> >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *On Behalf Of *Bill Kerr >> *Sent:* Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >> >> >> >> hi Anthony, >> >> I watched both videos. >> >> >> >> Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a >> half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they >> murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the >> police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not >> disproportionate murder of black people. >> >> >> >> Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, >> that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, >> and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, >> arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American >> DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from >> the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. >> >> >> >> There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is >> one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose >> from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they >> were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which >> led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency >> which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This >> history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, >> but is still not widely understood. >> >> >> >> Thank you >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >> I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, >> and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate >> to! What a year so far. >> >> >> >> I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone >> potentially curious: >> >> First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!UtOX2RWR53YmpMflA98_L7glFVNqqXmFrnD_8Tc68VxB70EEs8DZr5g9LSeKgjQ9FlQnmg$ >> featuring >> Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link >> that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) >> >> >> >> and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle >> commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!UtOX2RWR53YmpMflA98_L7glFVNqqXmFrnD_8Tc68VxB70EEs8DZr5g9LSeKgjQEDddZ3A$ >> >> (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his >> perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. >> >> >> >> Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these >> videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against >> the headwinds a fair amount. >> >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, >> >> >> >> I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot >> of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, >> including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them >> here and in the streets for a little while still. >> >> >> >> To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the >> color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for >> him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle >> small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, >> shouldn't it? >> >> >> >> I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we >> must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter >> violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky >> chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with >> flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? >> >> >> >> I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in >> unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. >> >> >> >> NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! >> >> >> >> Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might >> appreciate. >> >> >> >> We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of >> desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is >> just one. >> >> >> >> Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if >> there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by >> peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and >> the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can >> rationalize their dear riot gear. >> >> >> >> Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and >> clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is >> referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." >> They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who >> architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like >> watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a >> beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the >> antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I >> wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be >> solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? >> >> >> >> I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember >> coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in >> 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed >> looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. >> Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. >> >> >> >> There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few >> nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This >> morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows >> boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think >> these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the >> night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that >> street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought >> maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in >> there? >> >> >> >> I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray >> paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in >> a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. >> >> >> >> I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are >> protesting? >> >> >> >> There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African >> American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the >> world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, >> well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those >> people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." >> I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe >> it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it >> will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." >> >> >> >> I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting >> dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. >> >> >> >> My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire >> point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built >> upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this >> color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from >> another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to >> heavy. >> >> >> >> Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more >> of it. >> >> >> >> My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far >> more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever >> fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways >> the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being >> institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. >> >> >> >> The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental >> exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. >> >> >> >> I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how >> would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like >> now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled >> even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? >> >> >> >> The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human >> rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right >> to love one another. >> >> >> >> That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us >> matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or >> right. >> >> >> >> That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us >> doesn't. >> >> >> >> I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to >> vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. >> >> >> >> Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where >> Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until >> Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, >> if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. >> >> >> >> I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change >> might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. >> >> >> >> Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way >> to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. >> >> >> >> Thank you all in advance for your contributions. >> >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >> >> >> -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!UtOX2RWR53YmpMflA98_L7glFVNqqXmFrnD_8Tc68VxB70EEs8DZr5g9LSeKgjTbjfo9Yw$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!UtOX2RWR53YmpMflA98_L7glFVNqqXmFrnD_8Tc68VxB70EEs8DZr5g9LSeKgjTyDomCfg$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200607/72acbad6/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun Jun 7 18:17:38 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 10:17:38 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: (Peg--I went down to the Post Office to ask about mailing you some of our K-95s. Interestingly, they said that rationing rules include an export ban!) McWhorter is an engaging and sometimes astute analyst of creoles, and I agree with his insistence on the key distinction between creoles and pidgins (the former have native speakers, and the latter do not). But McWhorter sometimes goes completely off the rails, e.g. in his strange jeremiad against Sapir and Whorf. My jaw dropped when I heard this: it was an illiterate performance by someone I had thought supremely literate. But then I got to thinking: what happens when you are faced with tremendous inequalities and you are not armed with any explanatory principle like class? You fall back on race, but McWhorter cannot do that. McWhorter falls back on individuals. When McWhorter does go off on a jag, it's always something to do with the notion that variations are infinitely varied and ultimately meaningless: languages are essentially idiolects. There is some organic connection with his highly individualistic politics there that I can't quite seem to put my finger on. (This explains why his insistence on the creole/pidgin distinction feels so different from my own!) I used to think that Anthony's insistence that anything he disagrees with is a "good narrative" was a kind of right-wing version of postmodernism. Now I think it's closer to McWhorter's idea: narratives are essentially individual productions, and so are languages. There is no such thing as society: only the individual and the family. Questions like "the individual is to the family as the family is to...?" are met with Thatcher's blank stare. But I think that is precisely the question that is posed by BOTH the Covid crisis and the murder of George Floyd. What unit do we have which allow some form of economic life and some form of culture beyond the family but still beyond the reacih of the ignorance, incompetence, and violence of a frantically insecure state? (The Minneapolis City Council has just voted to dispand the Minneapolis Police Department!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Qgec490stkzwfLfrDv9UwNLdhFNHnghGyGZ2TmhATR9J1BN_Jkq9zhzJMpM0Yb5A9WB2PA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Qgec490stkzwfLfrDv9UwNLdhFNHnghGyGZ2TmhATR9J1BN_Jkq9zhzJMpM0Yb4AFpcDrQ$ On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 8:05 AM Greg Thompson wrote: > Anthony, > > I'd suggest that it is best to start at the source rather than someone > else's interpretation since most media outlets are terrible at > understanding science (oh, and I couldn't access the article b.c. of > paywall - are you a subscriber to the "failing" New York Times?). > > Here is the link to the original article: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/fryer/files/empirical_analysis_tables_figures.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!Qgec490stkzwfLfrDv9UwNLdhFNHnghGyGZ2TmhATR9J1BN_Jkq9zhzJMpM0Yb7bIeGo3w$ > > > If you are interested in critically engaging with this (I'm not), here is > the critical sentence: "On the most extreme use of force ? officer-involved > shootings ? we find no racial differences in either the raw data or when > contextual factors are taken into account." I would suggest that you dig > into what the author means by "when contextual factors are taken into > account." There are all kinds of games that you can play with numbers in > the name of "controlling" for differences. The point here is that this is > not a straight "let's compare the numbers", it is more of a "well, let's > adjust these numbers since this group has this factor that might lead to > more likely shootings and that group has this factor that might lead to > fewer shootings." The devil is in the details that are being "controlled" > for and why the author is choosing the things that they are choosing. It's > tough sleuthing work to dig into studies like this but it can be very > rewarding to do so because then YOU can decide whether you think these > assumptions are reasonable. > > And if you don't want to do the work yourself (I wouldn't blame you), in > two seconds I found this critique of Fryer by a colleague: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scholar.harvard.edu/jfeldman/blog/roland-fryer-wrong-there-racial-bias-shootings-police__;!!Mih3wA!Qgec490stkzwfLfrDv9UwNLdhFNHnghGyGZ2TmhATR9J1BN_Jkq9zhzJMpM0Yb5_5CDuYg$ > > > I'd be curious what you come up with after digging into this debate, so > please do share with us what you find! > > -greg > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 11:45 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Hi Michael, >> >> Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 multivariate analysis, >> groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on >> the matter): >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html__;!!Mih3wA!Qgec490stkzwfLfrDv9UwNLdhFNHnghGyGZ2TmhATR9J1BN_Jkq9zhzJMpM0Yb7PZPj5Tg$ >> >> >> >> I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in graduate economics, though >> I could be mistaken there. >> >> I respect this community and in no way seek to bring dis- or >> misinformation into it, especially on topics that may require numerous key >> strokes just to get one's footing. >> >> Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's not argue. >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael wrote: >> >>> Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. >>> What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from >>> very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have >>> strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few >>> key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. >>> >>> >>> >>> I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well >>> founded social science. >>> >>> >>> >>> What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions >>> was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to >>> proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The >>> list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is >>> possible in this day and age. >>> >>> >>> >>> These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with >>> anybody. >>> >>> >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> *On Behalf Of *Bill Kerr >>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >>> >>> >>> >>> hi Anthony, >>> >>> I watched both videos. >>> >>> >>> >>> Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a >>> half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they >>> murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the >>> police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not >>> disproportionate murder of black people. >>> >>> >>> >>> Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American >>> race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and >>> MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black >>> disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is >>> the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose >>> in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school >>> experience. >>> >>> >>> >>> There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is >>> one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose >>> from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they >>> were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which >>> led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency >>> which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This >>> history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, >>> but is still not widely understood. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra >>> wrote: >>> >>> I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, >>> and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate >>> to! What a year so far. >>> >>> >>> >>> I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone >>> potentially curious: >>> >>> First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!Qgec490stkzwfLfrDv9UwNLdhFNHnghGyGZ2TmhATR9J1BN_Jkq9zhzJMpM0Yb4rn3gwFQ$ >>> featuring >>> Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link >>> that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) >>> >>> >>> >>> and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle >>> commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!Qgec490stkzwfLfrDv9UwNLdhFNHnghGyGZ2TmhATR9J1BN_Jkq9zhzJMpM0Yb57SiI1yg$ >>> >>> (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his >>> perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. >>> >>> >>> >>> Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these >>> videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against >>> the headwinds a fair amount. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar >>> wrote: >>> >>> To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot >>> of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, >>> including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them >>> here and in the streets for a little while still. >>> >>> >>> >>> To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the >>> color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for >>> him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle >>> small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, >>> shouldn't it? >>> >>> >>> >>> I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, >>> we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter >>> violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky >>> chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with >>> flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? >>> >>> >>> >>> I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in >>> unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. >>> >>> >>> >>> NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! >>> >>> >>> >>> Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might >>> appreciate. >>> >>> >>> >>> We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of >>> desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is >>> just one. >>> >>> >>> >>> Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if >>> there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by >>> peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and >>> the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can >>> rationalize their dear riot gear. >>> >>> >>> >>> Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and >>> clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is >>> referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." >>> They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who >>> architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like >>> watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a >>> beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the >>> antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I >>> wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be >>> solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? >>> >>> >>> >>> I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember >>> coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in >>> 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed >>> looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. >>> Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. >>> >>> >>> >>> There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few >>> nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This >>> morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows >>> boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think >>> these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the >>> night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that >>> street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought >>> maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in >>> there? >>> >>> >>> >>> I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray >>> paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in >>> a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. >>> >>> >>> >>> I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are >>> protesting? >>> >>> >>> >>> There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African >>> American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the >>> world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, >>> well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those >>> people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." >>> I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe >>> it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it >>> will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." >>> >>> >>> >>> I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an >>> interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. >>> >>> >>> >>> My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the >>> entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow >>> built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with >>> this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from >>> another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to >>> heavy. >>> >>> >>> >>> Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more >>> of it. >>> >>> >>> >>> My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far >>> more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever >>> fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways >>> the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being >>> institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. >>> >>> >>> >>> The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental >>> exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. >>> >>> >>> >>> I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about >>> how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like >>> now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled >>> even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? >>> >>> >>> >>> The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human >>> rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right >>> to love one another. >>> >>> >>> >>> That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of >>> us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or >>> right. >>> >>> >>> >>> That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us >>> doesn't. >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to >>> vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. >>> >>> >>> >>> Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where >>> Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until >>> Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, >>> if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. >>> >>> >>> >>> I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive >>> change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the >>> cynic-within. >>> >>> >>> >>> Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a >>> way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you all in advance for your contributions. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>> >>> >>> > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!Qgec490stkzwfLfrDv9UwNLdhFNHnghGyGZ2TmhATR9J1BN_Jkq9zhzJMpM0Yb4fOD3UzA$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!Qgec490stkzwfLfrDv9UwNLdhFNHnghGyGZ2TmhATR9J1BN_Jkq9zhzJMpM0Yb7VOzfXBg$ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200608/6907a573/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Sun Jun 7 19:15:05 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 21:15:05 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <981FBE2A-8843-4C4B-AF84-DE967BC891FD@cantab.net> The link I sent to the NY Times 1619 podcast might also be behind their paywall. But it?s available from other podcast sites, such as: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/1619/id1476928106__;!!Mih3wA!Szw8kAPgiiovEbbZrj-YyKGjHyTXwJrqDBs1prznTxW3HGFDEPVBikd7CLMVdINnbqNWwg$ Martin > On Jun 7, 2020, at 6:04 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > Anthony, > > I'd suggest that it is best to start at the source rather than someone else's interpretation since most media outlets are terrible at understanding science (oh, and I couldn't access the article b.c. of paywall - are you a subscriber to the "failing" New York Times?). > > Here is the link to the original article: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/fryer/files/empirical_analysis_tables_figures.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!Szw8kAPgiiovEbbZrj-YyKGjHyTXwJrqDBs1prznTxW3HGFDEPVBikd7CLMVdIP9DFVrqg$ > > If you are interested in critically engaging with this (I'm not), here is the critical sentence: "On the most extreme use of force ? officer-involved shootings ? we find no racial differences in either the raw data or when contextual factors are taken into account." I would suggest that you dig into what the author means by "when contextual factors are taken into account." There are all kinds of games that you can play with numbers in the name of "controlling" for differences. The point here is that this is not a straight "let's compare the numbers", it is more of a "well, let's adjust these numbers since this group has this factor that might lead to more likely shootings and that group has this factor that might lead to fewer shootings." The devil is in the details that are being "controlled" for and why the author is choosing the things that they are choosing. It's tough sleuthing work to dig into studies like this but it can be very rewarding to do so because then YOU can decide whether you think these assumptions are reasonable. > > And if you don't want to do the work yourself (I wouldn't blame you), in two seconds I found this critique of Fryer by a colleague: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scholar.harvard.edu/jfeldman/blog/roland-fryer-wrong-there-racial-bias-shootings-police__;!!Mih3wA!Szw8kAPgiiovEbbZrj-YyKGjHyTXwJrqDBs1prznTxW3HGFDEPVBikd7CLMVdIOp__YiIg$ > > I'd be curious what you come up with after digging into this debate, so please do share with us what you find! > > -greg > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 11:45 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > Hi Michael, > > Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 multivariate analysis, groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on the matter): https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html__;!!Mih3wA!Szw8kAPgiiovEbbZrj-YyKGjHyTXwJrqDBs1prznTxW3HGFDEPVBikd7CLMVdINhXtynGQ$ > > I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in graduate economics, though I could be mistaken there. > > I respect this community and in no way seek to bring dis- or misinformation into it, especially on topics that may require numerous key strokes just to get one's footing. > > Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's not argue. > > Anthony > > > > On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael > wrote: > Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. > > > > I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well founded social science. > > > > What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. > > > > These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. > > > > Michael > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Bill Kerr > Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > hi Anthony, > > I watched both videos. > > > > Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not disproportionate murder of black people. > > > > Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. > > > > There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still not widely understood. > > > > Thank you > > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate to! What a year so far. > > > > I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone potentially curious: > > First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!Szw8kAPgiiovEbbZrj-YyKGjHyTXwJrqDBs1prznTxW3HGFDEPVBikd7CLMVdIMWt4lKtQ$ featuring Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) > > > > and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!Szw8kAPgiiovEbbZrj-YyKGjHyTXwJrqDBs1prznTxW3HGFDEPVBikd7CLMVdIM0Cy3ryA$ (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. > > > > Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against the headwinds a fair amount. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, > > > > I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them here and in the streets for a little while still. > > > > To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, shouldn't it? > > > > I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? > > > > I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. > > > > NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! > > > > Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might appreciate. > > > > We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is just one. > > > > Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can rationalize their dear riot gear. > > > > Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? > > > > I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. > > > > There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in there? > > > > I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. > > > > I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are protesting? > > > > There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." > > > > I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. > > > > My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to heavy. > > > > Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more of it. > > > > My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. > > > > The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. > > > > I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? > > > > The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right to love one another. > > > > That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or right. > > > > That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us doesn't. > > > > I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. > > > > Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. > > > > I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. > > > > Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. > > > > Thank you all in advance for your contributions. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!Szw8kAPgiiovEbbZrj-YyKGjHyTXwJrqDBs1prznTxW3HGFDEPVBikd7CLMVdIMKotnw1g$ > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!Szw8kAPgiiovEbbZrj-YyKGjHyTXwJrqDBs1prznTxW3HGFDEPVBikd7CLMVdIMO6JJMLQ$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200607/c64d4236/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Sun Jun 7 19:40:57 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 12:40:57 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <361553c6-674e-5758-0ec7-21e5be7cbce5@marxists.org> I am not fully across this issue, but I heard during the commentary on the BLM protests in Australia this weekend, where "black deaths in custody" is the issue, that counter-intuitively deaths of Indigenous Australians in prison is not very much larger than their percentage in the prison population, but their rate of imprisonment is so extraordinarily high (higher than that of African Americans) the result is a shockingly high rate of deaths in custody. And they are imprisoned at far greater rates for the same offences, or even none at all. If I got this wrong, I will stand corrected. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 8/06/2020 4:08 am, Martin Packer wrote: > I should have added that Fryer's original study, reported > in the NY Times in 2016, found this: > > A new study > > confirms that black men and women are treated > differently in the hands of law enforcement. They are > more likely to be touched, handcuffed, pushed to the > ground or pepper-sprayed by a police officer, even > after accounting for how, where and when they > encounter the police. > > But when it comes to the most lethal form of force ? > police shootings ? the study finds no racial bias. > > ?It is the most surprising result of my career,? said > Roland G. Fryer Jr. > , > the author of the study and a professor of economics > at Harvard. The study examined more than 1,000 > shootings in 10 major police departments, in Texas, > Florida and California. > > > Martin > > > > >> On Jun 7, 2020, at 12:42 PM, Anthony Barra >> > > wrote: >> >> Hi Michael, >> >> Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 >> multivariate analysis, groundbreaking at the time (though >> I don't know the very latest findings on the matter): >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html__;!!Mih3wA!XCFPJlrE3W-miqfvnnBUHHRjExgjwMHX58fTdhdHF7CdpFuqOclJ0CpadANq4gNI8Ivmmw$ >> >> >> >> I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in graduate >> economics, though I could be mistaken there. >> >> I respect this community and in no way seek to bring dis- >> or misinformation into it, especially on topics that may >> require numerous key strokes just to get one's footing. >> >> Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's not argue. >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael >> > wrote: >> >> Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police >> than white men. What makes this much, much worse is >> that most Black men are taught from very early in >> life the dangers they face in dealing with police and >> have strategies set for de-escalation. The first >> point you can get with a few key strokes. The second >> point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. >> >> I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is >> based on any well founded social science. >> >> What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose >> earlier versions was one of the earliest >> well-functioning communities is being use to >> proliferate this type of information, or I would say >> misinformation. The list has always run with >> minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible >> in this day and age. >> >> These are observations. I have no desire to argue >> about this with anybody. >> >> Michael >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> > > *On Behalf >> Of *Bill Kerr >> *Sent:* Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > > >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >> >> hi Anthony, >> >> I watched both videos. >> >> Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter >> movement is based on a half truth. True that the >> police treat blacks worse. Not true that they murder >> disproportionately more blacks than whites. The >> problem with the police is corruption (not being >> independently investigated) not disproportionate >> murder of black people. >> >> Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real >> history of American race, that things have moved on, >> progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, and >> the importance of identifying the real reasons of >> black disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the >> 1960s, and not that racism is the American DNA. eg. >> the meme that school is a white persons domain arose >> in part from the bussing movement which gave many >> blacks a terrible school experience. >> >> There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare >> dependency which is one of the biggest if not the >> biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from the >> chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum >> where they were recognised at citizens for the first >> time. This led to equal pay which led to aboriginal >> workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency >> which led to grog which led to more black on black >> violence etc. This history has been written, eg. by >> Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still >> not widely understood. >> >> Thank you >> >> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra >> > > wrote: >> >> I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy >> scratchy restlessness, and I think that is one >> unifying thing that almost everyone here can >> relate to!? What a year so far. >> >> I promise, these two conversations are very >> interesting, for anyone potentially curious: >> >> First, this one >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!XCFPJlrE3W-miqfvnnBUHHRjExgjwMHX58fTdhdHF7CdpFuqOclJ0CpadANq4gP1hp2REw$ >> ?featuring >> Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on >> the 1619 Project link that Martin shared earlier >> today (thanks for sharing that) >> >> and in my honest opinion, this is the single most >> down-the-middle commentary on recent events in >> the US, via Coleman Hughes: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!XCFPJlrE3W-miqfvnnBUHHRjExgjwMHX58fTdhdHF7CdpFuqOclJ0CpadANq4gNIUiQURw$ >> >> ?(as least as far as I've yet encountered). >> Coleman shares his perspective as a protest >> attendee, and also much more than that. >> >> Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of >> pain expressed in these videos, but not exactly >> conventional, as these commentaries do cut >> against the headwinds a fair amount. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Anthony >> >> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar >> > wrote: >> >> To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, >> >> I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed >> to come out. Like the riot of expression that >> gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending >> to 46, including mine, though I know the >> tapestry is still weaving us and them here >> and in the streets for a little while still. >> >> To whoever said it, I don't think that it's >> that people don't like the color of Trump's >> hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so >> strange for him to promote white supremacy. >> An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle >> small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It >> should be orange supremacy, shouldn't it? >> >> I also wanted to offer, for those of us who >> organize peaceful protest, we must also have >> a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to >> counter violently-intentioned infiltrators. >> This strategy must have enough cheeky >> chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful >> protesters are namby-pambies with flowers in >> their hair. Does this exist? Has it been >> designed? >> >> I have seen people yell down a few no-nos >> running about by yelling in unison NO >> VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. >> >> NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! >> >> Perhaps it has to do with spacing and >> cadence, something David might appreciate. >> >> We learn violence, and then we must unlearn >> it. Violence is an act of desperation once >> enough people feel disrespected, if even the >> number is just one. >> >> Of course my suggestion may not be the best >> possible, but I wonder if there is such an >> on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido >> maneuvers by peaceful protesters to >> differentiate themselves from chaotic >> pretenders and the police who need them to be >> pretending chaotically, so they can >> rationalize their dear riot gear. >> >> Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a >> wonderful moniker, sly and clever how it >> doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the >> way it is referential in function, like if I >> were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." They >> are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, >> black ninjas who architect surprise. It's >> almost performance art. At the same time like >> watching a pincer move, in action with >> peaceful protesters, It's a beautiful think. >> Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian >> that if the antifa were not present in >> Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I >> wondered about that coupling of forces. Is >> that what appears to be solidifying in the >> rhythms of the recent protests? What do >> other's think? >> >> I can't speak to the looting, as I would >> never ever do it. I remember coming across >> the concept or looting when I was challenged >> by my friends in 7th grade to read all of >> Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and >> killed looters on the spot. I supposed that >> concept too has gone out the window. Not that >> I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. >> >> There were curfews for a few days, but it's >> been lifted as of a few nights back.?As I am >> writing this I am hearing helicopters >> circling. This morning I drove down a street >> with many business having their windows >> boarded up. There were no people rioting or >> anything like that. I think these folks are >> fearful of having their plate glass windows >> smashed in the night by a fictitious rioting >> hurricane, that will just not happen on that >> street. But then there is no way to see into >> those shops now. I thought maybe they are >> just duck-and-covering under all that >> plywood. Is anyone in there? >> >> I also saw someone had spray painted the >> words in black drippy spray paint on a white >> sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this >> was hanging in a gentrified neighborhood. It >> seemed the perfect place to hang it. >> >> I also wanted to ask the list whether it is >> only racism that we are protesting? >> >> There was a tech who came to install my >> internet today. He is African American. I >> asked him, "Did you hear about all the >> protests all over the world? When I heard >> about it I started crying." To which he said, >> "Yeah, well but what about the other two guys >> that were killed? I think all those people >> came out because being shut in they just have >> nothing better to do." I said, "Well I >> understand that's a cynical way to look at >> it, but maybe it's a sign that something is >> going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it >> will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." >> >> I really appreciated that exchange. Together >> he and I made an interesting dyad of >> viewpoints about what is actually going on here. >> >> My own consciousness about race is exposed >> here, but I thought the entire point of >> racism is to reduce people to a construct >> that is somehow built upon genetic features, >> like skin color, and then to layer that with >> this color is better than that one, and even >> to dehumanize one color from another, ir I >> should say to create a spectrum of >> dehumanization, light to heavy. >> >> Then I thought also that the point is to >> Eracism, not to perpetuate more of it. >> >> My next thought was about people with >> disabilities. They are likely far more >> oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I >> don't think we could ever fathom disabled >> folks rioting in the streets for being killed >> in many ways the the disabled are, or who >> have their lives reduced by being >> institutionalized because of the bodies in >> which they were born. >> >> The same might be said about the seriously >> mentally ill. As a mental exercise take any >> oppressed group and fill that space. >> >> I was following the bead of this comparison >> in my mind to think about how would >> inclusivity of the disabled in protest be >> provided in a time like now? (Give we are >> making room for kids to protest?) Or are the >> disabled even left behind while everyone else >> has the privilege to protest? >> >> The only thing I feel might be a conclusion >> is that we fight for human rights and for >> non-violence, but also for inclusivity and >> our innate right to love one another. >> >> That everyone every single one of us matters. >> When every single one of us matters, there is >> no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, >> left or right. >> >> That day is not here yet because only some of >> us matters, and some of us doesn't. >> >> I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the >> first mainstreamers to vocalize that we have >> an open wound that needs dressing. >> >> Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of >> saying that outright where Obama was not. My >> memory might be incorrect, however, it was >> only until Fergusen that Obama came out to >> speak but only in a very circumspect tone, if >> only that he could not be bridled as an angry >> black man. >> >> I wondered if anyone might present an >> imagination of what positive change might >> develop out of all of this, if you are able >> to shush the cynic-within. >> >> Or is my cable internet guy right? The >> protests are just a holiday, a way to get out >> of the house because too many of us have >> cabin fever. >> >> Thank you all in advance for your contributions. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> < >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200608/ecc2a9c0/attachment.html From Peg.Griffin@att.net Mon Jun 8 07:44:16 2020 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin, Ph.D.) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 10:44:16 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <361553c6-674e-5758-0ec7-21e5be7cbce5@marxists.org> References: <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <361553c6-674e-5758-0ec7-21e5be7cbce 5@marxists.org> Message-ID: <000401d63da3$4a3047d0$de90d770$@att.net> Thanks for the information about the Australia protests, Andy. I haven?t had a chance to look much at them but this motivates me to keep my eyes open about them. I spent a term, years ago, in Sydney and my office tower mate was a lab technician who tried hard to educate me about differences and similarities about race in Australia and the US. A lot of us in the US right now are looking with care at the reception and use of studies with claims about police and racism. The study cited is said to be credible 1. ?Because MATH!? as the kids would say; 2. because the author said he didn?t expect the outcome (hence, it must be a rare case of ?science? that isn?t fake and needn?t be overturned by executive order); 3. because that bastion of Fake News, the NYT, tricked itself into publishing it 3 a. before the NYT got serious about consistently persecuting the pitiful attacked president T, 3 b. tripping itself up in the glare of its worship of elite colleges and black scholars. A lot of us on this list are interested in how the immediate is being mediated during these times and in these situations. The deaths and violence are based on police self-reports. In DC we have a very recent careful and steady ongoing series of attempts to get data from the police (based on our NEAR Act). It includes stop and frisk (locally known?and denied-- as jump-outs) and other encounters with people in and out of custody. We allocated money for administration, for cooperatively building usable instruments and training in using them. We allocated funds year after year. We fail miserably at every turn and after every adjustment we make. The police department still does not fully comply. Like when a child fails to get the answer to a single digit addition task we set them, we don?t know if they wouldn?t or couldn?t do it, all we know is they didn?t. Several independent audits (some prospective, others retrospective) have been attempted of major US city police self- reports with careful identification of the universe of incidents relative to the day?s time passing, within the carefully identified jurisdiction, and closer to the time and place of incidents. So far, lots of problems and no chance of dismissing worries about accountably using police self-report data. Many of us have worked hard to understand how self-report relates to other sorts of data and to practical and theoretical contexts. Of course, who are we to say anything? We never took into account that people put knees on people?s necks until they died ? well, they might kill but they certainly would not lie (by omission or commission) on a self-report form that someone would later code for a study. And people who shoot a young man with 75 exit wounds might kill but they certainly wouldn?t lie (by omission or commission) on a self-report form that someone would later code for a study? We say their names and others? names. Maybe I am just wrong to think, as the saying goes, that the dead tell no lies, but killers, might. Someone else might bring up convenience samples and all too convenient samples and so on? From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 10:41 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis I am not fully across this issue, but I heard during the commentary on the BLM protests in Australia this weekend, where "black deaths in custody" is the issue, that counter-intuitively deaths of Indigenous Australians in prison is not very much larger than their percentage in the prison population, but their rate of imprisonment is so extraordinarily high (higher than that of African Americans) the result is a shockingly high rate of deaths in custody. And they are imprisoned at far greater rates for the same offences, or even none at all. If I got this wrong, I will stand corrected. Andy _____ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 8/06/2020 4:08 am, Martin Packer wrote: I should have added that Fryer's original study, reported in the NY Times in 2016, found this: A new study confirms that black men and women are treated differently in the hands of law enforcement. They are more likely to be touched, handcuffed, pushed to the ground or pepper-sprayed by a police officer, even after accounting for how, where and when they encounter the police. But when it comes to the most lethal form of force ? police shootings ? the study finds no racial bias. ?It is the most surprising result of my career,? said Roland G. Fryer Jr. , the author of the study and a professor of economics at Harvard. The study examined more than 1,000 shootings in 10 major police departments, in Texas, Florida and California. Martin On Jun 7, 2020, at 12:42 PM, Anthony Barra > wrote: Hi Michael, Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 multivariate analysis, groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on the matter): https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html__;!!Mih3wA!QV74X_a5vhO5Je-Sp1Sis9dJjBN9K14P5AiPLH-iy4IR0DxrmbT56x14cac5OyWsfMH92w$ I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in graduate economics, though I could be mistaken there. I respect this community and in no way seek to bring dis- or misinformation into it, especially on topics that may require numerous key strokes just to get one's footing. Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's not argue. Anthony On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael > wrote: Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well founded social science. What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailmanucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Bill Kerr Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis hi Anthony, I watched both videos. Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not disproportionate murder of black people. Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still not widely understood. Thank you On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate to! What a year so far. I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone potentially curious: First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!QV74X_a5vhO5Je-Sp1Sis9dJjBN9K14P5AiPLH-iy4IR0DxrmbT56x14cac5OyVEvnxZCA$ featuring Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!QV74X_a5vhO5Je-Sp1Sis9dJjBN9K14P5AiPLH-iy4IR0DxrmbT56x14cac5OyVX9WpzHA$ (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against the headwinds a fair amount. Thank you, Anthony On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them here and in the streets for a little while still. To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, shouldn't it? I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might appreciate. We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is just one. Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can rationalize their dear riot gear. Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in there? I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are protesting? There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to heavy. Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more of it. My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right to love one another. That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or right. That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us doesn't. I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. Thank you all in advance for your contributions. Kind regards, Annalisa _____ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200608/2ae854e2/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Mon Jun 8 08:57:13 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 11:57:13 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Trust networks Message-ID: Andy Blunden weighs in honorably on the topic of trust networks: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/3vziqz__;!!Mih3wA!QQxo6r_Mg3U-WTDWbL8wvKN6U4JgO8YnSc-JS9gXRZWXutKAEgw4Q2Tpwt9gdcw56DrZAA$ -------------- Lately, I've been posting more often than intended and thus will slow it down henceforth. That said, one subtext to recent conversations and threads, which Andy called my attention to offline, is this notion of trust networks. Surprisingly, an xmca archive search yielded zero results for the phrase, so I figured it's worth sharing Andy's thoughts with you all. [I would have shared them anyway -- it's Andy after all.] Thank you, I value the interactions here. Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200608/b075ea5e/attachment.html From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Jun 8 12:52:45 2020 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:52:45 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trust networks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Along the lines of trust networks, one of the most fascinating trust networks I've seen these days is "QAnon" (or just "Q"). This is a trust network that has formed which circulates all kinds of conspiracy theories (it was the origin of the Comet ping-pong story about the Clintons running a child sex ring out of a pizza parlor in DC - the attached story begins there): https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/06/qanon-nothing-can-stop-what-is-coming/610567/__;!!Mih3wA!XodDuXDN2dGqPJt4wnT7x0cGNt4ezMjNLSCM1qqqPMRE5H9uU1HOUKvrhR-VFsLIybQJ3w$ I was particularly struck by the repeated refrain of the QAnon folks who say "do the research" and if you do, you'll find what they find (research = truth). I'm most curious what in the world these folks mean by "do the research". If anyone out there in XMCA land is interested, I'd love to do a phenomenology of what these folks mean by "do the research". What are they actually doing when they "do the research?" (I'm guessing that it is quite different from what you or I might do when "doing research"). It would be most helpful if someone out there has connections to QAnon people (there is a cottage industry out there of people who are making money off of these conspiracy theories - assemblages sustained by the current communicative/political ecology!). Anyone interested? Or perhaps you know someone who is in this world and who I (or one of my students) could shadow to see how they go about "doing research"? -greg On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 10:01 AM Anthony Barra wrote: > Andy Blunden weighs in honorably on the topic of trust networks: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/3vziqz__;!!Mih3wA!XodDuXDN2dGqPJt4wnT7x0cGNt4ezMjNLSCM1qqqPMRE5H9uU1HOUKvrhR-VFsIB4saRnA$ > > -------------- > > Lately, I've been posting more often than intended and thus will slow it > down henceforth. > > That said, one subtext to recent conversations and threads, which Andy > called my attention to offline, is this notion of trust networks. > Surprisingly, an xmca archive search yielded zero results for the phrase, > so I figured it's worth sharing Andy's thoughts with you all. > > [I would have shared them anyway -- it's Andy after all.] > > Thank you, I value the interactions here. > > Anthony > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!XodDuXDN2dGqPJt4wnT7x0cGNt4ezMjNLSCM1qqqPMRE5H9uU1HOUKvrhR-VFsI9oCL4iQ$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!XodDuXDN2dGqPJt4wnT7x0cGNt4ezMjNLSCM1qqqPMRE5H9uU1HOUKvrhR-VFsL-U88HGQ$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200608/89e4a001/attachment.html From aysegul.bahcivan@gmail.com Mon Jun 8 16:53:04 2020 From: aysegul.bahcivan@gmail.com (Aysegul Bahcivan) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 19:53:04 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trust networks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Anthony, I joined the mailing list quite recently and I've been meaning to say this for a while. I find the videos very useful and enjoyable. Many thanks to you and Andy for taking the time to do this. I'm wrapping up my thesis these days. I've gained as much insight from the discussions in this group as I have from academic literature. Cheers from Montreal Aysegul On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 at 12:01, Anthony Barra wrote: > Andy Blunden weighs in honorably on the topic of trust networks: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/3vziqz__;!!Mih3wA!UmrrHEnHF1z160Ch7oaM1vRVvpWvb61jNRm8olNig1IuZvzyAcR5bRBXy_6kVNoL4ESo2w$ > > -------------- > > Lately, I've been posting more often than intended and thus will slow it > down henceforth. > > That said, one subtext to recent conversations and threads, which Andy > called my attention to offline, is this notion of trust networks. > Surprisingly, an xmca archive search yielded zero results for the phrase, > so I figured it's worth sharing Andy's thoughts with you all. > > [I would have shared them anyway -- it's Andy after all.] > > Thank you, I value the interactions here. > > Anthony > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200608/82e2ad8f/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Mon Jun 8 18:34:49 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 11:34:49 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <000401d63da3$4a3047d0$de90d770$@att.net> References: <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <361553c6-674e-5758-0ec7-21e5be7cbce 5@marxists.org> <000401d63da3$4a3047d0$de90d770$@att.net> Message-ID: I can't help much here, Peg. The world is watching you all taking the problem in hand for yourselves now. Even in the depths of degradation and ignominy America can lead, it seems. The only significant progress that has been made here in the excessive imprisonment of indigenous people (16 times that of non-indigenous people) has been where the local elders mediate interactions between courts, police and the indigenous youth. Young indigenous people respect their elders and their elders know who they are, who their parents are, etc., etc., and with the cooperation of the police, they can keep the kids out of trouble. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 9/06/2020 12:44 am, Peg Griffin, Ph.D. wrote: > > Thanks for the information about the Australia protests, > Andy.? I haven?t had a chance to look much at them but > this motivates me to keep my eyes open about them.? I > spent a term, years ago, in Sydney and my office tower > mate was a lab technician who tried hard to educate me > about differences and similarities about race in Australia > and the US. > > A lot of us in the US right now are looking with care at > the reception and use of studies with claims about police > and racism. The study cited is said to be credible > > 1. ?Because MATH!? as the kids would say; > > 2. because the author said he didn?t expect the outcome > (hence, it must be a rare case of ?science? that isn?t > fake and needn?t be overturned by executive order); > > 3. because that bastion of Fake News, the NYT, tricked > itself into publishing it > > 3 a. before the NYT got serious about consistently > persecuting the pitiful attacked president T, > > 3 b. tripping itself up in the glare of its worship of > elite colleges and black scholars. > > A lot of us on this list are interested in how the > immediate is being mediated during these times and in > these situations. The deaths and violence ?are based on > police self-reports. In DC we have a very recent careful > and steady ongoing series of attempts to get data from the > police (based on our NEAR Act).? It includes stop and > frisk (locally known?and denied-- as jump-outs) and other > encounters with people in and out of custody. We allocated > money for administration, for cooperatively building > usable instruments and training in using them.? We > allocated funds year after year. We fail miserably at > every turn and after every adjustment we make. The police > department still does not fully comply. Like when a child > fails to get the answer to a single digit addition task we > set them, we don?t know if they wouldn?t or couldn?t do > it, all we know is they didn?t.? Several independent > audits (some prospective, others retrospective) have been > attempted of major US city police self- reports with > careful identification of the universe of incidents > relative to the day?s time passing, within the carefully > identified jurisdiction, and closer to the time and place > of incidents.? So far, lots of problems and no chance of > dismissing worries about accountably using police > self-report data. > > Many of us have worked hard to understand how self-report > relates to other sorts of data and to practical and > theoretical contexts.? Of course, who are we to say > anything? We never took into account that people put knees > on people?s necks until they died ? well, they might kill > but they certainly would not lie (by omission or > commission) on a self-report form that someone would later > code for a study.? And people who shoot a young man with > 75 exit wounds might kill but they certainly wouldn?t lie > ?(by omission or commission) on a self-report form that > someone would later code for a study?? We say their names > and others? names. > > Maybe I am just wrong to think, as the saying goes, that > the dead tell no lies, but killers, might. > > Someone else might bring up convenience samples and all > too convenient samples and so on? > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Sunday, June 7, 2020 10:41 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > I am not fully across this issue, but I heard during the > commentary on the BLM protests in Australia this weekend, > where "black deaths in custody" is the issue, that > counter-intuitively deaths of Indigenous Australians in > prison is not very much larger than their percentage in > the prison population, but their rate of imprisonment is > so extraordinarily high (higher than that of African > Americans) the result is a shockingly high rate of deaths > in custody. And they are imprisoned at far greater rates > for the same offences, or even none at all. > > If I got this wrong, I will stand corrected. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > On 8/06/2020 4:08 am, Martin Packer wrote: > > I should have added that Fryer's original study, > reported in the NY Times in 2016, found this: > > A new study > > confirms that black men and women are treated > differently in the hands of law enforcement. They > are more likely to be touched, handcuffed, pushed > to the ground or pepper-sprayed by a police > officer, even after accounting for how, where and > when they encounter the police. > > But when it comes to the most lethal form of force > ? police shootings ? the study finds no racial bias. > > ?It is the most surprising result of my career,? > said Roland G. Fryer Jr. > , > the author of the study and a professor of > economics at Harvard. The study examined more than > 1,000 shootings in 10 major police departments, in > Texas, Florida and California. > > Martin > > > > On Jun 7, 2020, at 12:42 PM, Anthony Barra > > wrote: > > Hi Michael, > > Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 > multivariate analysis, groundbreaking at the time > (though I don't know the very latest findings on > the matter): > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html__;!!Mih3wA!SKIYaYsiD1gmabdVNx4A10kLISqNAkDVV9i_sjLGfgBlKziiiQBAJm-YoUWR-_B_nz-DEA$ > > > > I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in > graduate economics, though I could be mistaken there. > > I respect this community and in no way seek to > bring dis- or misinformation into it, especially > on topics that may require numerous key strokes > just to get one's footing. > > Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's > not argue. > > Anthony > > > On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael > > > wrote: > > Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by > police than white men. What makes this much, > much worse is that most Black men are taught > from very early in life the dangers they face > in dealing with police and have strategies set > for de-escalation. The first point you can get > with a few key strokes. The second point maybe > you have to live in the U.S. for. > > I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument > is based on any well founded social science. > > What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, > whose earlier versions was one of the earliest > well-functioning communities is being use to > proliferate this type of information, or I > would say misinformation. The list has always > run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if > it is possible in this day and age. > > These are observations. I have no desire to > argue about this with anybody. > > Michael > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailmanucsd.edu > > > *On > Behalf Of *Bill Kerr > *Sent:* Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > hi Anthony, > > I watched both videos. > > Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives > Matter movement is based on a half truth. True > that the police treat blacks worse. Not true > that they murder disproportionately more > blacks than whites. The problem with the > police is corruption (not being independently > investigated) not disproportionate murder of > black people. > > Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the > real history of American race, that things > have moved on, progress has been made since > Lincoln and MLKing, and the importance of > identifying the real reasons of black > disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the > 1960s, and not that racism is the American > DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white > persons domain arose in part from the bussing > movement which gave many blacks a terrible > school experience. > > There are some parallels in Australia, eg. > welfare dependency which is one of the biggest > if not the biggest problem for aboriginals > here arose from the chain events which > followed from the 1967 referendum where they > were recognised at citizens for the first > time. This led to equal pay which led to > aboriginal workers being sacked which led to > welfare dependency which led to grog which led > to more black on black violence etc. This > history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, > The Politics of Suffering, but is still not > widely understood. > > Thank you > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra > > wrote: > > I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and > itchy scratchy restlessness, and I think > that is one unifying thing that almost > everyone here can relate to! What a year > so far. > > I promise, these two conversations are > very interesting, for anyone potentially > curious: > > First, this one > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!SKIYaYsiD1gmabdVNx4A10kLISqNAkDVV9i_sjLGfgBlKziiiQBAJm-YoUWR-_ChGJowrA$ > ?featuring > Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- > piggybacking on the 1619 Project link that > Martin shared earlier today (thanks for > sharing that) > > and in my honest opinion, this is the > single most down-the-middle commentary on > recent events in the US, via Coleman > Hughes: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!SKIYaYsiD1gmabdVNx4A10kLISqNAkDVV9i_sjLGfgBlKziiiQBAJm-YoUWR-_CRkg6meQ$ > > ?(as least as far as I've yet > encountered).? Coleman shares his > perspective as a protest attendee, and > also much more than that. > > Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair > amount of pain expressed in these videos, > but not exactly conventional, as these > commentaries do cut against the headwinds > a fair amount. > > Thank you, > > Anthony > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa > Aguilar > wrote: > > To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, > > I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just > seemed to come out. Like the riot of > expression that gobsmacked me as I saw > this thread extending to 46, including > mine, though I know the tapestry is > still weaving us and them here and in > the streets for a little while still. > > To whoever said it, I don't think that > it's that people don't like the color > of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, > which makes it so strange for him to > promote white supremacy. An black star > enigma surrounded by a riddle small > waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. > It should be orange supremacy, > shouldn't it? > > I also wanted to offer, for those of > us who organize peaceful protest, we > must also have a bullet-proof strategy > (pun intended) to counter > violently-intentioned infiltrators. > This strategy must have enough cheeky > chutzpah to bend the myth that > peaceful protesters are namby-pambies > with flowers in their hair. Does this > exist? Has it been designed? > > I have seen people yell down a few > no-nos running about by yelling in > unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It > worked. > > NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! > > Perhaps it has to do with spacing and > cadence, something David might > appreciate. > > We learn violence, and then we must > unlearn it. Violence is an act of > desperation once enough people feel > disrespected, if even the number is > just one. > > Of course my suggestion may not be the > best possible, but I wonder if there > is such an on-the-ground ad hoc > strategy for aikido maneuvers by > peaceful protesters to differentiate > themselves from chaotic pretenders and > the police who need them to be > pretending chaotically, so they can > rationalize their dear riot gear. > > Now the antifa, on the other hand, > have a wonderful moniker, sly and > clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" > into it fully, the way it is > referential in function, like if I > were to say, "Don't think of an > elepha." They are like crouching > tigers and hidden dragons, black > ninjas who architect surprise. It's > almost performance art. At the same > time like watching a pincer move, in > action with peaceful protesters, It's > a beautiful think. Cornell West wrote > recently in the Guardian that if the > antifa were not present in > Charlottesville he may have been > killed. So I wondered about that > coupling of forces. Is that what > appears to be solidifying in the > rhythms of the recent protests? What > do other's think? > > I can't speak to the looting, as I > would never ever do it. I remember > coming across the concept or looting > when I was challenged by my friends in > 7th grade to read all of Gone With the > Wind. And that they shot and killed > looters on the spot. I supposed that > concept too has gone out the window. > Not that I'd want to see that mind > you, but it is punny. > > There were curfews for a few days, but > it's been lifted as of a few nights > back.?As I am writing this I am > hearing helicopters circling. This > morning I drove down a street with > many business having their windows > boarded up. There were no people > rioting or anything like that. I think > these folks are fearful of having > their plate glass windows smashed in > the night by a fictitious rioting > hurricane, that will just not happen > on that street. But then there is no > way to see into those shops now. I > thought maybe they are just > duck-and-covering under all that > plywood. Is anyone in there? > > I also saw someone had spray painted > the words in black drippy spray paint > on a white sheet. "White Silence is > Violence" and this was hanging in a > gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the > perfect place to hang it. > > I also wanted to ask the list whether > it is only racism that we are protesting? > > There was a tech who came to install > my internet today. He is African > American. I asked him, "Did you hear > about all the protests all over the > world? When I heard about it I started > crying." To which he said, "Yeah, well > but what about the other two guys that > were killed? I think all those people > came out because being shut in they > just have nothing better to do." I > said, "Well I understand that's a > cynical way to look at it, but maybe > it's a sign that something is going to > change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it > will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." > > I really appreciated that exchange. > Together he and I made an interesting > dyad of viewpoints about what is > actually going on here. > > My own consciousness about race is > exposed here, but I thought the entire > point of racism is to reduce people to > a construct that is somehow built upon > genetic features, like skin color, and > then to layer that with this color is > better than that one, and even to > dehumanize one color from another, ir > I should say to create a spectrum of > dehumanization, light to heavy. > > Then I thought also that the point is > to Eracism, not to perpetuate more of it. > > My next thought was about people with > disabilities. They are likely far more > oppressed than any other vulnerable > group. I don't think we could ever > fathom disabled folks rioting in the > streets for being killed in many ways > the the disabled are, or who have > their lives reduced by being > institutionalized because of the > bodies in which they were born. > > The same might be said about the > seriously mentally ill. As a mental > exercise take any oppressed group and > fill that space. > > I was following the bead of this > comparison in my mind to think about > how would inclusivity of the disabled > in protest be provided in a time like > now? (Give we are making room for kids > to protest?) Or are the disabled even > left behind while everyone else has > the privilege to protest? > > The only thing I feel might be a > conclusion is that we fight for human > rights and for non-violence, but also > for inclusivity and our innate right > to love one another. > > That everyone every single one of us > matters. When every single one of us > matters, there is no need to > distinguish favorites, up or down, > left or right. > > That day is not here yet because only > some of us matters, and some of us > doesn't. > > I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of > the first mainstreamers to vocalize > that we have an open wound that needs > dressing. > > Then I thought how Biden has the > privilege of saying that outright > where Obama was not. My memory might > be incorrect, however, it was only > until Fergusen that Obama came out to > speak but only in a very circumspect > tone, if only that he could not be > bridled as an angry black man. > > I wondered if anyone might present an > imagination of what positive change > might develop out of all of this, if > you are able to shush the cynic-within. > > Or is my cable internet guy right? The > protests are just a holiday, a way to > get out of the house because too many > of us have cabin fever. > > Thank you all in advance for your > contributions. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > < > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200609/71acd79e/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Mon Jun 8 19:11:45 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 21:11:45 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <361553c6-674e-5758-0ec7-21e5be7cbce 5@marxists.org> <000401d63da3$4a3047d0$de90d770$@att.net> Message-ID: <0D51973B-8E27-49A8-83AE-A5BF3E79E133@cantab.net> On Jun 8, 2020, at 8:34 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Even in the depths of degradation and ignominy America can lead, it seems. This is something worth and worthy of theorizing, isn?t it?! Turns out the World Perezhivanie is not the coronavirus, or at least not the coronavirus alone. It is racism. And the global subject that has just been formed has found its lead in the US. The US Century may not be over after all! Martin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200608/a7070a68/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Mon Jun 8 20:02:13 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 13:02:13 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <0D51973B-8E27-49A8-83AE-A5BF3E79E133@cantab.net> References: <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <361553c6-674e-5758-0ec7-21e5be7cbce 5@marxists.org> <000401d63da3$4a3047d0$de90d770$@att.net> <0D51973B-8E27-49A8-83AE-A5BF3E79E133@cantab.net> Message-ID: <30f8a2a9-1a10-960f-fdc7-6b50d3487ba7@marxists.org> No, the American Century is over, I believe, even if America can take a leading part in ushering in the new epoch, I think it will be to release the rest of the world from the USA's mania to micromanage everyone else. The pandemic was, I think, the catalyst which brought the issues to the surface which were bubbling away for a long time. And might I venture the opinion that the vast investment in this BLM movement by young "white" people is in large part because cops kill a hell of a lot of white kids as well, and everyone is suffering under the system in which African Americans are victimised. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 9/06/2020 12:11 pm, Martin Packer wrote: > On Jun 8, 2020, at 8:34 PM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: >> >> Even in the depths of degradation and ignominy America >> can lead, it seems. > > This is something worth and worthy of theorizing, isn?t > it?! Turns out the World Perezhivanie is not the > coronavirus, or at least not the coronavirus alone. It is > racism. And the global subject that has just been formed > has found its lead in the US. The US Century may not be > over after all! > > Martin > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200609/21ec8c81/attachment.html From leah@labvanced.com Tue Jun 9 04:20:52 2020 From: leah@labvanced.com (Lee Leah) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 13:20:52 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Labvanced compared to Millisecond and Qualtrics Message-ID: <426351591701406@mail.yandex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200609/58d729e4/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Tue Jun 9 06:26:23 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 09:26:23 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trust networks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aysegul, That is gratifying to hear, thank you. I appreciate Andy, and the many productive exchanges we've had, in and out of public. He and I disagree on various things, but who cares! He knows so much, and starting with our first public chat in 2012, Andy has been a scholar and a gentleman, always gracious to share his knowledge and his opinions. Side topic: next week I should be releasing the biggest video collaboration I've worked on. It deals with the topic of 'Vygotskian research' and will be tailored to anyone (primarily new researchers and educators) interested in that topic. I hope it will be a valuable contribution. Thanks again, and congratulations on your successes ~ Anthony On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 7:56 PM Aysegul Bahcivan wrote: > Dear Anthony, > > I joined the mailing list quite recently and I've been meaning to say this > for a while. I find the videos very useful and enjoyable. Many thanks to > you and Andy for taking the time to do this. I'm wrapping up my thesis > these days. I've gained as much insight from the discussions in this group > as I have from academic literature. > > Cheers from Montreal > Aysegul > > On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 at 12:01, Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Andy Blunden weighs in honorably on the topic of trust networks: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/3vziqz__;!!Mih3wA!WPrfSmk5f3-1EI4KWTuYWBGZcuv0o6VkGsyVXG2o25chhKYkmCq1ye7c0zXTqrMtDdzWtg$ >> >> -------------- >> >> Lately, I've been posting more often than intended and thus will slow it >> down henceforth. >> >> That said, one subtext to recent conversations and threads, which Andy >> called my attention to offline, is this notion of trust networks. >> Surprisingly, an xmca archive search yielded zero results for the phrase, >> so I figured it's worth sharing Andy's thoughts with you all. >> >> [I would have shared them anyway -- it's Andy after all.] >> >> Thank you, I value the interactions here. >> >> Anthony >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200609/7cb3e258/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Jun 9 07:09:14 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 07:09:14 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trust networks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Post you flic on CulturalPraxis, Anthony! Mike On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 6:28 AM Anthony Barra wrote: > Aysegul, > > That is gratifying to hear, thank you. I appreciate Andy, and the many > productive exchanges we've had, in and out of public. He and I disagree on > various things, but who cares! He knows so much, and starting with our > first public chat in 2012, Andy has been a scholar and a gentleman, always > gracious to share his knowledge and his opinions. > > Side topic: next week I should be releasing the biggest video > collaboration I've worked on. It deals with the topic of 'Vygotskian > research' and will be tailored to anyone (primarily new researchers and > educators) interested in that topic. > I hope it will be a valuable contribution. > > Thanks again, and congratulations on your successes ~ > > Anthony > > > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 7:56 PM Aysegul Bahcivan < > aysegul.bahcivan@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Dear Anthony, >> >> I joined the mailing list quite recently and I've been meaning to say >> this for a while. I find the videos very useful and enjoyable. Many thanks >> to you and Andy for taking the time to do this. I'm wrapping up my thesis >> these days. I've gained as much insight from the discussions in this group >> as I have from academic literature. >> >> Cheers from Montreal >> Aysegul >> >> On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 at 12:01, Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >>> Andy Blunden weighs in honorably on the topic of trust networks: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/3vziqz__;!!Mih3wA!TXecHMOB3bxAzl3qfblLbBgBVZ2quTZybR6f6yIh4-1ZUVz9L7fqiwb36aqrznmhtRRGdA$ >>> >>> -------------- >>> >>> Lately, I've been posting more often than intended and thus will slow it >>> down henceforth. >>> >>> That said, one subtext to recent conversations and threads, which Andy >>> called my attention to offline, is this notion of trust networks. >>> Surprisingly, an xmca archive search yielded zero results for the phrase, >>> so I figured it's worth sharing Andy's thoughts with you all. >>> >>> [I would have shared them anyway -- it's Andy after all.] >>> >>> Thank you, I value the interactions here. >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TXecHMOB3bxAzl3qfblLbBgBVZ2quTZybR6f6yIh4-1ZUVz9L7fqiwb36aqrznlt1nOTSw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200609/fbe5f3f8/attachment.html From Peg.Griffin@att.net Tue Jun 9 08:13:45 2020 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin, Ph.D.) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 11:13:45 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <30f8a2a9-1a10-960f-fdc7-6b50d3487ba7@marxists.org> References: <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <361553c6-674e-5758-0ec7-21e5be7cbce 5@marxists.org> <000401d63da3$4a3047d0$de90d770$@att.net> <0D51973B-8E27-49A8-83AE-A5BF3E79E133@cantab.net> <30f8a2a9-1a10-960f-fdc7 -6b50d3487ba7@marxists.org> Message-ID: <000201d63e70$9346ac70$b9d40550$@att.net> Yes everyone suffers, but it is about white supremacy rather than racism. Other people in other places have other things, maybe other race supremacies to rise against. Whether it?s race or not, it?s people with the knees on the necks that must lead and be followed. Who follows, here, is whoever isn?t a white supremacist. It is painful and time taking to apprehend what white privilege means in action. It is difficult to persevere in the denial of white privilege in one?s own life. It?s a careful distinction ? between white supremacy and racism. Here and now the reduction to racism deflects us to an ?epigenetic byway,? provides room to protect dangerous institutions and practices, to produce misshapen changes. White supremacists make references to, praise, make symbols of, people who are not white whose jobs or statements or health; it is supposed to be prima facie evidence that they aren?t racist. More long term and subtly, it divides us, hides them, and maligns and degrades us. The ties that bind white supremacy and fascism are blatant, as Mike?s references to the late 30?s highlight. PG From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 11:02 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis No, the American Century is over, I believe, even if America can take a leading part in ushering in the new epoch, I think it will be to release the rest of the world from the USA's mania to micromanage everyone else. The pandemic was, I think, the catalyst which brought the issues to the surface which were bubbling away for a long time. And might I venture the opinion that the vast investment in this BLM movement by young "white" people is in large part because cops kill a hell of a lot of white kids as well, and everyone is suffering under the system in which African Americans are victimised. Andy _____ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 9/06/2020 12:11 pm, Martin Packer wrote: On Jun 8, 2020, at 8:34 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: Even in the depths of degradation and ignominy America can lead, it seems. This is something worth and worthy of theorizing, isn?t it?! Turns out the World Perezhivanie is not the coronavirus, or at least not the coronavirus alone. It is racism. And the global subject that has just been formed has found its lead in the US. The US Century may not be over after all! Martin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200609/e61b776b/attachment-0001.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Tue Jun 9 08:39:44 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 15:39:44 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] spam Message-ID: Hi all, just to let you know that there?s been some form of spam (had not seen one before in xmca!) with an add on some software. We are looking into what that is and how to fix it. Meanwhile, please do not respond to that thread. Best, Alfredo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200609/1c5d418a/attachment.html From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Tue Jun 9 09:47:28 2020 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 17:47:28 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: spam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ? On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 16:41, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Hi all, > > > > just to let you know that there?s been some form of spam (had not seen one > before in xmca!) with an add on some software. We are looking into what > that is and how to fix it. Meanwhile, please do not respond to that thread. > > > > Best, > > Alfredo > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200609/6f3ac99d/attachment.html From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Tue Jun 9 10:00:47 2020 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 18:00:47 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <000201d63e70$9346ac70$b9d40550$@att.net> References: <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <000401d63da3$4a3047d0$de90d770$@att.net> <0D51973B-8E27-49A8-83AE-A5BF3E79E133@cantab.net> <30f8a2a9-1a10-960f-fdc7-6b50d3487ba7@marxists.org> <000201d63e70$9346ac70$b9d40550$@att.net> Message-ID: Hello Peg Griffin Thank you for this thought-provoking mail. I'm guessing that the "epigenetic byway" is continuing the current spontaneous movement and future organisation around racism, which will not tackle the basic DNA of the pervading culture and institutions of white supremacy? (Sorry, I hadn't come across 'epigenetics' before) Regards Tom Richardson Middlesbrough UK On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 16:15, Peg Griffin, Ph.D. wrote: > Yes everyone suffers, but it is about white supremacy rather than racism. > > Other people in other places have other things, maybe other race > supremacies to rise against. > > > > Whether it?s race or not, it?s people with the knees on the necks that > must lead and be followed. > > Who follows, here, is whoever isn?t a white supremacist. > > It is painful and time taking to apprehend what white privilege means in > action. It is difficult to persevere in the denial of white privilege in > one?s own life. > > It?s a careful distinction ? between white supremacy and racism. > > > > Here and now the reduction to racism deflects us to an ?epigenetic byway,? > provides room to protect dangerous institutions and practices, to produce > misshapen changes. White supremacists make references to, praise, make > symbols of, people who are not white whose jobs or statements or health; it > is supposed to be prima facie evidence that they aren?t racist. More long > term and subtly, it divides us, hides them, and maligns and degrades us. > > > > The ties that bind white supremacy and fascism are blatant, as Mike?s > references to the late 30?s highlight. > > PG > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Monday, June 8, 2020 11:02 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > No, the American Century is over, I believe, even if America can take a > leading part in ushering in the new epoch, I think it will be to release > the rest of the world from the USA's mania to micromanage everyone else. > The pandemic was, I think, the catalyst which brought the issues to the > surface which were bubbling away for a long time. And might I venture the > opinion that the vast investment in this BLM movement by young "white" > people is in large part because cops kill a hell of a lot of white kids as > well, and everyone is suffering under the system in which African Americans > are victimised. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 9/06/2020 12:11 pm, Martin Packer wrote: > > On Jun 8, 2020, at 8:34 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > Even in the depths of degradation and ignominy America can lead, it seems. > > > > This is something worth and worthy of theorizing, isn?t it?! Turns out the > World Perezhivanie is not the coronavirus, or at least not the coronavirus > alone. It is racism. And the global subject that has just been formed has > found its lead in the US. The US Century may not be over after all! > > > > Martin > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200609/676ea87c/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Jun 9 10:08:17 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 17:08:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <000201d63e70$9346ac70$b9d40550$@att.net> References: <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <361553c6-674e-5758-0ec7-21e5be7cbce 5@marxists.org> <000401d63da3$4a3047d0$de90d770$@att.net> <0D51973B-8E27-49A8-83AE-A5BF3E79E133@cantab.net> <30f8a2a9-1a10-960f-fdc7 -6b50d3487ba7@marxists.org>,<000201d63e70$9346ac70$b9d40550$@att.net> Message-ID: Hi Peg, Thinking out loud about distinctions... I presume that white supremism (WS) comes out of a belief that white is "more pure" and therefore "closer to God" and I am presuming this derives from Christian traditions more than non-Christian, though there is this sensibility in a different form in India with the untouchable caste, etc (which actually may have to do with immunity systems, untouchables having stronger ones ? I wonder if we will be experiencing our own versions of untouchables today, in the sense that everyone is untouchable unless you are "in the same clan"). I get what you say that WS is a subtle difference from racism. It is still the divisive act of creating an Us vs Them. Isn't that what racism is? Perhaps I am missing your point. One issue I've always had is with the naming of La Raza. Which translates from Spanish to "The Race." Capital-T-The. My father tells me that La Raza came as a response to the mixing of European and Native Americans, in Latin America. Many mestizos were treated as outsiders because they did not "belong" in European circles nor in Indio circles. They were considered an altogether different "race," or Mestizo ("mixed"). There came to be a holiday once a year to celebrate being mestizo, to provide a sense of pride rather than shame. I think my father said there was even a parade (similar to Gay Pride Day). Everyone wore white on that day, interestingly. Fast forward to today, and La Raza, in California anyway, seems to be tightly woven with Mexican American culture (of which I do not "identify", my father being from Central America). I do not speak Spanish (my French is much better). So a term that was meant to unify, for me divides, conceptually and personally. It's kind of like the concept of "the chosen people." Who is chosen and who chooses? Lots of humans do this. Humans will likely continue to do it long after we are gone. This narrative of La Raza in my experience is no different than WS. So I'm not sure what the distinction is to be made, because it's divisive and intended to bring one's clan tightly together not to "blend" with The Other, in order to survive. The dynamic is fairly predictable. What I wonder is in the case where different cultures "blended", say in Moorish Spain, or Palestine before the creation of the Israeli state, or other historical periods where sharing of culture was welcomed, in the sense of trade, or sharing knowledge, like medicine, astrology/astronomy, and mathematics, whether being different wasn't considered divisive, but welcome. An opportunity for the curious to delight by asking "Let's see what you got?" and then to wait for the object of curiosity brought from far, far away to be revealed. Forest trees do not distinguish between themselves when they grow, same for other plants. There is competition for sunlight and laying down roots, but I think it's rare that tree will kill another one. They tend to grow and accommodate one another, even in the way branches are extended to catch the light. In some research they are finding an intricate communication system between trees within their root systems. They seem to all speak the same language in that sense. I wonder if we humans might one day have that kindly experience of sameness despite differences. As long as we dwell on the differences as a marker of superiority there will be strife. That there are differences can't be denied, and we certainly do not want everyone to blend into the same mass genetically, if only to preserve differences in the gene pool so we can survive. (Perhaps the virus striking down so many people has to do with our becoming too much of the same genetic mass?) How is it that we consider animals not to be of our level, and yet the llama Winter and her antibodies may be our very way out of this pandemic. Does this make the llama somehow superior to us? I have to wonder what the proponents of the Third Reich would have thought about a llama's blood used to save the human species from a cold virus. I maintain that until we can see everything around us and say and understand "That is me" or better, "I am that," we will continue to suffer from these divisions. If one can't say "I am that" then some place in one's mind one has created separateness. That's an opportunity for self growth, to reflect upon it and overcome that barrier. I don't see any other way to freedom. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Peg Griffin, Ph.D. Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 9:13 AM To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis [EXTERNAL] Yes everyone suffers, but it is about white supremacy rather than racism. Other people in other places have other things, maybe other race supremacies to rise against. Whether it?s race or not, it?s people with the knees on the necks that must lead and be followed. Who follows, here, is whoever isn?t a white supremacist. It is painful and time taking to apprehend what white privilege means in action. It is difficult to persevere in the denial of white privilege in one?s own life. It?s a careful distinction ? between white supremacy and racism. Here and now the reduction to racism deflects us to an ?epigenetic byway,? provides room to protect dangerous institutions and practices, to produce misshapen changes. White supremacists make references to, praise, make symbols of, people who are not white whose jobs or statements or health; it is supposed to be prima facie evidence that they aren?t racist. More long term and subtly, it divides us, hides them, and maligns and degrades us. The ties that bind white supremacy and fascism are blatant, as Mike?s references to the late 30?s highlight. PG From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 11:02 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis No, the American Century is over, I believe, even if America can take a leading part in ushering in the new epoch, I think it will be to release the rest of the world from the USA's mania to micromanage everyone else. The pandemic was, I think, the catalyst which brought the issues to the surface which were bubbling away for a long time. And might I venture the opinion that the vast investment in this BLM movement by young "white" people is in large part because cops kill a hell of a lot of white kids as well, and everyone is suffering under the system in which African Americans are victimised. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 9/06/2020 12:11 pm, Martin Packer wrote: On Jun 8, 2020, at 8:34 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: Even in the depths of degradation and ignominy America can lead, it seems. This is something worth and worthy of theorizing, isn?t it?! Turns out the World Perezhivanie is not the coronavirus, or at least not the coronavirus alone. It is racism. And the global subject that has just been formed has found its lead in the US. The US Century may not be over after all! Martin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200609/f86e80d0/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Jun 9 12:08:41 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 19:08:41 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] The intersection of disability and blackness Message-ID: Hello Xmcars, This was in The Guardian today: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/09/sandra-bland-eric-garner-freddie-gray-the-toll-of-police-violence-on-disabled-americans__;!!Mih3wA!SwBDu_0L-cQ38xzdrOMNUos0WMKdMrzhQZi3fJ4uzS58qqFYdj3Q2g6ChVfjxxJXmEKJBQ$ It's an odd synchronicity given my exchange with Peg about disability and protest. This is from that article: "While the numbers of disabled people killed by police are not systematically tracked in the United States, the Ruderman Family Foundation has estimated that between a third to half of all Americans killed by police have a disability. (Their study defines disability broadly, ?inclusive of physical, developmental, intellectual, psychiatric, emotional, and any other form of disability that might fall under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA)?.) To put that into perspective, data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention shows that disabled American adults make up a quarter of the population, making them the largest minority group." I had no idea that 25% of adults in the US are disabled. That is pretty huge. Unfortunately much in the way class divides women from supporting change about perceptions of women in everyday life, as is the promise of feminism, disabled folks are also divided because even with a single disability there are huge differences in how a disability impinges upon an individual's freedom to be. And some are more disabled than others. So I can understand why it's been difficult to become a politically active group, when just being and living is an arduous undertaking, who has the energy for activism? There is also a very strange phenomenon, as I understand, for certain people who work in the disability community to control them as an effort to "keep them safe" because "they don't know how to be safe on their own." This is done by lying to them, as one might do to children. I'm not sure if this kind of discrimination has a name, but it doesn't protect the agency of the cognitively disabled, no matter their age. California has the Lanterman Act which is the State of California accepting responsibility to aid and support individuals with developmental disabilities to live a life of their choosing as independently as they are capable of living. I feel legislation should exist like this for all people with disabilities, but ADA doesn't seem to have enough teeth. Only where federal law governs and with employers that have a particular number of employees are there fairness protections, which means small business owners can practice discriminative hiring with impunity. There is also the education system, of which has been very challenged with the pandemic, to make sure kids with learning challenges are supported to develop as much as they are able. Talk about the limitations of Zoom. It may not only be that the people murdered by police was "because of the color of their skin," but because of their disability, meaning that these victims of brutality were unable to communicate in a way police officers can perceive or understand, thereby triggering a police reaction based upon a perceived threat. It's really awful to know this, actually and it provides a different dimension to the problem, which is perhaps not only about living while black, but also living while disabled. Kind regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200609/b98b9c1c/attachment.html From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Tue Jun 9 12:29:59 2020 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 22:29:59 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] "Air Force Lt. Gen. addresses cadets about racism incident" Message-ID: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/hkUrnHT1VvI__;!!Mih3wA!XWgReCVDa8Pw5dyBnGL8ZxKQEy86t8c1b2PbCwqKLPnlRr5SFCYMxEUQddwftHthGJxlLw$ Look at this please. "They" completely... As dominant class, as black population is part of this air force... Ideological reproduction.... Deceiving... They discover equality... Come on boy... For whom do you really care? Black people? Or imperialist oppressive social order or its state? As an organ of class oppression. Fear in their eyes. Let's think that 13 % of air force, of the navy is black....Hmm mutinies on the door... There is a law of insurrection. If it has a law, then it has a legitimate material ( class and racial ) basis. It shows the true direction: Seizure of Political power (of course a class seizure by force. Why not it being saving itself as class power by armed forced on a daily basis?). Ulvi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200609/6c2202a6/attachment.html From ajrajala@gmail.com Tue Jun 9 13:16:28 2020 From: ajrajala@gmail.com (Antti Rajala) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 23:16:28 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re-generating CHAT: Interesting symposium on July 2, at 5 pm Central European Summer Time Message-ID: Dear Xmca-folks As many of you know there has been an important initiative https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://re-generatingchat.com/__;!!Mih3wA!VYoFyxYTKwN8CIB1MZhFDTfVAXyZJ9IQR5KENrDlQT-8oxkbj7VIzpNmz4Ym99CJqL181A$ to critically revise and invigorate cultural historical theory, sponsored among others by the Mind Culture and Activity journal. One outcome of this project is an online invited symposium to be held as part of European Association of Research on Learning and Instruction (EARLI) SIG conference on July 1-3, 2020. There is still room in the conference and there is no fee for participation. There is also other interesting program in the conference, see https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://earli.org/SIG10-21-25__;!!Mih3wA!VYoFyxYTKwN8CIB1MZhFDTfVAXyZJ9IQR5KENrDlQT-8oxkbj7VIzpNmz4Ym99CqJNA27w$ The Re-gen symposium is titled *Learning from Learners: Power, Resistance and Learners' Voices in an Era of Uncertainty. *See the info below. (The symposium was originally accepted in the Cultural-historical SIG of AERA 2020 conference) Please note that the deadline for registrations is already on June 15th. If interested, you can register here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://earli.org/SIG10-21-25*practical-info__;Iw!!Mih3wA!VYoFyxYTKwN8CIB1MZhFDTfVAXyZJ9IQR5KENrDlQT-8oxkbj7VIzpNmz4Ym99D39-oNmg$ Hope to see you there! On behalf of the conference organizers and the symposium organizers, Antti Rajala (Co-coordinator of EARLI SIG on Educational Theory) *Learning from Learners: Power, Resistance and Learners' Voices in an Era of Uncertainty* Organisers: Charles Underwood, University of California, Berkeley, United States; Mara Mahmood, University of California Berkeley, United States; Sophina ChoudryUniversity of Manchester, United Kingdom; Arturo Cortez, University of Colorado, Boulder, United States; Alfredo Jornet, University of Oslo, Department of Teacher Education and School Research, Spain; Antti Rajala, University of Helsinki, Finland; Michael Bakal, University of Berkeley, United States; M. Lisette Lopez, Univeristy of California, Berkeley, United States; Kalonji Nzinga, University of Colorado at Boulder, United States; Jos? Ram?n Liz?rraga, University of Colorado, United States; Mike Cole, University of California, San Diego, United States Chairs: Mara Mahmood, University of California Berkeley, United States; Charles Underwood, University of California, Berkeley, United States; Kalonji Nzinga, University of Colorado at Boulder, United States Discussants: Angela Booker, University of California, San Diego, United States; Anna Stetsenko, The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, United States Abstract This symposium engages panelists and participants in the exploration and re-conceptualization of ?learners? voices? from a cultural-historical activity theory (CHAT) perspective that approaches education as a struggle to overcome dominant paradigms that thwart learners? development and agency in the face of an uncertain future. As part of a larger effort to re-generate CHAT, this symposium will articulate and elaborate the concept of "learners? voices" as a tool for guiding students, teachers, researchers, activists, and policy-makers in re-orienting pedagogy to cultivate their critical voices, empowering learners to become agentive sociopolitical actors in charge of their own futures-in-the-making. The concept of voice has been used in educational research, design and practice for calling out and naming the hidden power relations in systems of oppression and plays a role in learner-centered approaches (Corbett & Wilson, 1995) culturally-relevant pedagogies (Ladson-Billings 1994; Lee, 2006), hybrid language education (Guti?rrez, 1999), and critical race theories and pedagogies (Mensah, 2019). Panelists reconceptualize voice as ?learners? voices? broadly to convey agentive engagement in meaning making in the face of unequal power relations. While the panelists work in different social contexts (see presentation abstracts) all employ the concept of ?learners? voices? and explore ways of encouraging multivoicedness, speaking truth to power, and recognizing learners? voices as an educational necessity in an uncertain global context. The structure of the symposium encourages dialogue designed to promote the collective co-construction and development of the concept of "learners? voices" as a critical tool for expanding our understanding of teaching and learning. Papers *Participatory Design Research for Climate Resilience and Activism* Michael Bakal, University of Berkeley, United States *?Trump Would Just Get Sucked Into a Black Hole?: Youthful Digital Imaginings of New Futures* Jos? Ram?n Liz?rraga, University of Colorado, United States; Arturo Cortez, University of Colorado, Boulder, United States *Contradictory Activities Leading to Differential Learning in a Heterogeneous Mathematics Classroom* Sophina Choudry, University of Manchester, United Kingdom *?It?s Rigged!?: The Disruption That Reverberates When Youth Vocalize That the System Is Fixed* M. Lisette Lopez, Univeristy of California, Berkeley, United States; Kalonji Nzinga, University of Colorado at Boulder, United States *Learners? Voices and the Transformation of Schooling Towards a Sustainable Society* Alfredo Jornet, University of Oslo, Department of Teacher Education and School Research, Spain; Antti Rajala, University of Helsinki, Finland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200609/6adeb2f1/attachment.html From aysegul.bahcivan@gmail.com Tue Jun 9 20:06:55 2020 From: aysegul.bahcivan@gmail.com (Aysegul Bahcivan) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 23:06:55 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trust networks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you, Anthony! I look forward to the videos. Cheers Aysegul On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 9:28 AM Anthony Barra wrote: > Aysegul, > > That is gratifying to hear, thank you. I appreciate Andy, and the many > productive exchanges we've had, in and out of public. He and I disagree on > various things, but who cares! He knows so much, and starting with our > first public chat in 2012, Andy has been a scholar and a gentleman, always > gracious to share his knowledge and his opinions. > > Side topic: next week I should be releasing the biggest video > collaboration I've worked on. It deals with the topic of 'Vygotskian > research' and will be tailored to anyone (primarily new researchers and > educators) interested in that topic. > I hope it will be a valuable contribution. > > Thanks again, and congratulations on your successes ~ > > Anthony > > > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 7:56 PM Aysegul Bahcivan < > aysegul.bahcivan@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Dear Anthony, >> >> I joined the mailing list quite recently and I've been meaning to say >> this for a while. I find the videos very useful and enjoyable. Many thanks >> to you and Andy for taking the time to do this. I'm wrapping up my thesis >> these days. I've gained as much insight from the discussions in this group >> as I have from academic literature. >> >> Cheers from Montreal >> Aysegul >> >> On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 at 12:01, Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >>> Andy Blunden weighs in honorably on the topic of trust networks: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/3vziqz__;!!Mih3wA!U86zL4LYXY7qB2VqPe3fucbz1f_zlED52XZI84gf8c8Pxs5SwCSRokefZs7XEKKq7SteQw$ >>> >>> -------------- >>> >>> Lately, I've been posting more often than intended and thus will slow it >>> down henceforth. >>> >>> That said, one subtext to recent conversations and threads, which Andy >>> called my attention to offline, is this notion of trust networks. >>> Surprisingly, an xmca archive search yielded zero results for the phrase, >>> so I figured it's worth sharing Andy's thoughts with you all. >>> >>> [I would have shared them anyway -- it's Andy after all.] >>> >>> Thank you, I value the interactions here. >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200609/15475e8f/attachment.html From VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za Wed Jun 10 00:37:29 2020 From: VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za (Mary van der Riet) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 07:37:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-generating CHAT: Interesting symposium on July 2, at 5 pm Central European Summer Time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Anttii Thank you for this. When I link into Earli I don?t see this particular symposium. Do you need to be a full member to access the symposium. Please could you email me directly on vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za Best wishes Mary Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor, Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa Address: Pvt Bag X01, Scottsville, Pietermaritzburg, 3201, RSA Landline: +27 033 260 6163 Email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za Researchgate: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mary_Van_Der_Riet__;!!Mih3wA!QHw0SEc5JR3oraNBbPx3our4JBdfHj5oacepvZe3YhtALRBJjUOAV8OxkvxiODH-If73Ug$ UKZN: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://sahs.ukzn.ac.za/staff-profile/psychology/mary-van-der-riet/__;!!Mih3wA!QHw0SEc5JR3oraNBbPx3our4JBdfHj5oacepvZe3YhtALRBJjUOAV8OxkvxiODFuyui5Xg$ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Antti Rajala Sent: Tuesday, 09 June 2020 22:16 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re-generating CHAT: Interesting symposium on July 2, at 5 pm Central European Summer Time Dear Xmca-folks As many of you know there has been an important initiative https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://re-generatingchat.com/__;!!Mih3wA!QHw0SEc5JR3oraNBbPx3our4JBdfHj5oacepvZe3YhtALRBJjUOAV8OxkvxiODF9h_L7bw$ to critically revise and invigorate cultural historical theory, sponsored among others by the Mind Culture and Activity journal. One outcome of this project is an online invited symposium to be held as part of European Association of Research on Learning and Instruction (EARLI) SIG conference on July 1-3, 2020. There is still room in the conference and there is no fee for participation. There is also other interesting program in the conference, see https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://earli.org/SIG10-21-25__;!!Mih3wA!QHw0SEc5JR3oraNBbPx3our4JBdfHj5oacepvZe3YhtALRBJjUOAV8OxkvxiODG9CCzfpA$ The Re-gen symposium is titled Learning from Learners: Power, Resistance and Learners' Voices in an Era of Uncertainty. See the info below. (The symposium was originally accepted in the Cultural-historical SIG of AERA 2020 conference) Please note that the deadline for registrations is already on June 15th. If interested, you can register here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://earli.org/SIG10-21-25*practical-info__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QHw0SEc5JR3oraNBbPx3our4JBdfHj5oacepvZe3YhtALRBJjUOAV8OxkvxiODHxgPZuYg$ Hope to see you there! On behalf of the conference organizers and the symposium organizers, Antti Rajala (Co-coordinator of EARLI SIG on Educational Theory) Learning from Learners: Power, Resistance and Learners' Voices in an Era of Uncertainty Organisers: Charles Underwood, University of California, Berkeley, United States; Mara Mahmood, University of California Berkeley, United States; Sophina ChoudryUniversity of Manchester, United Kingdom; Arturo Cortez, University of Colorado, Boulder, United States; Alfredo Jornet, University of Oslo, Department of Teacher Education and School Research, Spain; Antti Rajala, University of Helsinki, Finland; Michael Bakal, University of Berkeley, United States; M. Lisette Lopez, Univeristy of California, Berkeley, United States; Kalonji Nzinga, University of Colorado at Boulder, United States; Jos? Ram?n Liz?rraga, University of Colorado, United States; Mike Cole, University of California, San Diego, United States Chairs: Mara Mahmood, University of California Berkeley, United States; Charles Underwood, University of California, Berkeley, United States; Kalonji Nzinga, University of Colorado at Boulder, United States Discussants: Angela Booker, University of California, San Diego, United States; Anna Stetsenko, The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, United States Abstract This symposium engages panelists and participants in the exploration and re-conceptualization of ?learners? voices? from a cultural-historical activity theory (CHAT) perspective that approaches education as a struggle to overcome dominant paradigms that thwart learners? development and agency in the face of an uncertain future. As part of a larger effort to re-generate CHAT, this symposium will articulate and elaborate the concept of "learners? voices" as a tool for guiding students, teachers, researchers, activists, and policy-makers in re-orienting pedagogy to cultivate their critical voices, empowering learners to become agentive sociopolitical actors in charge of their own futures-in-the-making. The concept of voice has been used in educational research, design and practice for calling out and naming the hidden power relations in systems of oppression and plays a role in learner-centered approaches (Corbett & Wilson, 1995) culturally-relevant pedagogies (Ladson-Billings 1994; Lee, 2006), hybrid language education (Guti?rrez, 1999), and critical race theories and pedagogies (Mensah, 2019). Panelists reconceptualize voice as ?learners? voices? broadly to convey agentive engagement in meaning making in the face of unequal power relations. While the panelists work in different social contexts (see presentation abstracts) all employ the concept of ?learners? voices? and explore ways of encouraging multivoicedness, speaking truth to power, and recognizing learners? voices as an educational necessity in an uncertain global context. The structure of the symposium encourages dialogue designed to promote the collective co-construction and development of the concept of "learners? voices" as a critical tool for expanding our understanding of teaching and learning. Papers Participatory Design Research for Climate Resilience and Activism Michael Bakal, University of Berkeley, United States ?Trump Would Just Get Sucked Into a Black Hole?: Youthful Digital Imaginings of New Futures Jos? Ram?n Liz?rraga, University of Colorado, United States; Arturo Cortez, University of Colorado, Boulder, United States Contradictory Activities Leading to Differential Learning in a Heterogeneous Mathematics Classroom Sophina Choudry, University of Manchester, United Kingdom ?It?s Rigged!?: The Disruption That Reverberates When Youth Vocalize That the System Is Fixed M. Lisette Lopez, Univeristy of California, Berkeley, United States; Kalonji Nzinga, University of Colorado at Boulder, United States Learners? Voices and the Transformation of Schooling Towards a Sustainable Society Alfredo Jornet, University of Oslo, Department of Teacher Education and School Research, Spain; Antti Rajala, University of Helsinki, Finland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200610/11b38686/attachment.html From ajrajala@gmail.com Wed Jun 10 01:21:50 2020 From: ajrajala@gmail.com (Antti Rajala) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 11:21:50 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-generating CHAT: Interesting symposium on July 2, at 5 pm Central European Summer Time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Mary Thank you for your good question. Let me respond to everyone, because others might have similar questions. You can find the symposium in the program of the conference I linked. Here is the link to the program: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://earli.org/SIG10-21-25*programme__;Iw!!Mih3wA!V5jMQHrZ6wMWJIiyRJk16nU_JQPVhdstej4i-Xtb4ENK7BjBsRa-4c-OOOIcdlTpzJT9Rw$ It is both in the "downloadable PDF file with presenter details" and described in the website as one of the invited symposia under the heading Programme. You do not need to be paying EARLI member to register to the conference and join the symposium. When you follow the registration link, there is a chance (and link!) to do an EARLI account, which does not cost anything. Hope this is helpful! If you or others have further questions, you can consult my personal email antti.rajala (at) helsinki.fi and I am happy to advise on the matter. All best, Antti On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 10:39, Mary van der Riet wrote: > Dear Anttii > > Thank you for this. When I link into Earli I don?t see this particular > symposium. Do you need to be a full member to access the symposium. Please > could you email me directly on vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za > > > > Best wishes > > > > Mary > > > > > > Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor, Discipline of Psychology, > School of Applied Human Sciences, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa > > Address: Pvt Bag X01, Scottsville, Pietermaritzburg, 3201, RSA > Landline: +27 033 260 6163 Email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za > > > Researchgate: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mary_Van_Der_Riet__;!!Mih3wA!V5jMQHrZ6wMWJIiyRJk16nU_JQPVhdstej4i-Xtb4ENK7BjBsRa-4c-OOOIcdlSXvQJ0dQ$ > > > UKZN: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://sahs.ukzn.ac.za/staff-profile/psychology/mary-van-der-riet/__;!!Mih3wA!V5jMQHrZ6wMWJIiyRJk16nU_JQPVhdstej4i-Xtb4ENK7BjBsRa-4c-OOOIcdlRYmWkQJA$ > > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *Antti Rajala > *Sent:* Tuesday, 09 June 2020 22:16 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re-generating CHAT: Interesting symposium on July 2, > at 5 pm Central European Summer Time > > > > Dear Xmca-folks > > As many of you know there has been an important initiative > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://re-generatingchat.com/__;!!Mih3wA!V5jMQHrZ6wMWJIiyRJk16nU_JQPVhdstej4i-Xtb4ENK7BjBsRa-4c-OOOIcdlQlwFQdeQ$ > > to critically revise and invigorate cultural historical theory, sponsored > among others by the Mind Culture and Activity journal. > > One outcome of this project is an online invited symposium to be held as > part of European Association of Research on Learning and Instruction > (EARLI) SIG conference on July 1-3, 2020. There is still room in the > conference and there is no fee for participation. There is also other > interesting program in the conference, see https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://earli.org/SIG10-21-25__;!!Mih3wA!V5jMQHrZ6wMWJIiyRJk16nU_JQPVhdstej4i-Xtb4ENK7BjBsRa-4c-OOOIcdlRKBp2xnQ$ > > > The Re-gen symposium is titled *Learning from Learners: Power, Resistance > and Learners' Voices in an Era of Uncertainty. *See the info below. (The > symposium was originally accepted in the Cultural-historical SIG of AERA > 2020 conference) > > > > Please note that the deadline for registrations is already on June 15th. > If interested, you can register here: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://earli.org/SIG10-21-25*practical-info__;Iw!!Mih3wA!V5jMQHrZ6wMWJIiyRJk16nU_JQPVhdstej4i-Xtb4ENK7BjBsRa-4c-OOOIcdlSbMKtL-g$ > > > > > Hope to see you there! > > > > On behalf of the conference organizers and the symposium organizers, > > > > Antti Rajala (Co-coordinator of EARLI SIG on Educational Theory) > > > > *Learning from Learners: Power, Resistance and Learners' Voices in an Era > of Uncertainty* > > Organisers: Charles Underwood, University of California, Berkeley, United > States; Mara Mahmood, University of California Berkeley, United States; > Sophina ChoudryUniversity of Manchester, United Kingdom; Arturo Cortez, > University of Colorado, Boulder, United States; Alfredo Jornet, University > of Oslo, Department of Teacher Education and School Research, Spain; Antti > Rajala, University of Helsinki, Finland; Michael Bakal, University of > Berkeley, United States; M. Lisette Lopez, Univeristy of California, > Berkeley, United States; Kalonji Nzinga, University of Colorado at Boulder, > United States; Jos? Ram?n Liz?rraga, University of Colorado, United > States; Mike Cole, University of California, San Diego, United States > > Chairs: Mara Mahmood, University of California Berkeley, United States; > Charles Underwood, University of California, Berkeley, United States; > Kalonji Nzinga, University of Colorado at Boulder, United States > > Discussants: Angela Booker, University of California, San Diego, United > States; Anna Stetsenko, The Graduate Center of the City University of New > York, United States > > Abstract > > This symposium engages panelists and participants in the exploration and > re-conceptualization of ?learners? voices? from a cultural-historical > activity theory (CHAT) perspective that approaches education as a struggle > to overcome dominant paradigms that thwart learners? development and agency > in the face of an uncertain future. As part of a larger effort to > re-generate CHAT, this symposium will articulate and elaborate the concept > of "learners? voices" as a tool for guiding students, teachers, > researchers, activists, and policy-makers in re-orienting pedagogy to > cultivate their critical voices, empowering learners to become agentive > sociopolitical actors in charge of their own futures-in-the-making. The > concept of voice has been used in educational research, design and practice > for calling out and naming the hidden power relations in systems of > oppression and plays a role in learner-centered approaches (Corbett & > Wilson, 1995) culturally-relevant pedagogies (Ladson-Billings 1994; Lee, > 2006), hybrid language education (Guti?rrez, 1999), and critical race > theories and pedagogies (Mensah, 2019). > > Panelists reconceptualize voice as ?learners? voices? broadly to convey > agentive engagement in meaning making in the face of unequal power > relations. While the panelists work in different social contexts (see > presentation abstracts) all employ the concept of ?learners? voices? and > explore ways of encouraging multivoicedness, speaking truth to power, and > recognizing learners? voices as an educational necessity in an uncertain > global context. The structure of the symposium encourages dialogue designed > to promote the collective co-construction and development of the concept of > "learners? voices" as a critical tool for expanding our understanding of > teaching and learning. > > Papers > > > *Participatory Design Research for Climate Resilience and Activism * > Michael Bakal, University of Berkeley, United States > > > *?Trump Would Just Get Sucked Into a Black Hole?: Youthful Digital > Imaginings of New Futures * > Jos? Ram?n Liz?rraga, University of Colorado, United States; Arturo > Cortez, University of Colorado, Boulder, United States > > *Contradictory Activities Leading to Differential Learning in a > Heterogeneous Mathematics Classroom* > > Sophina Choudry, University of Manchester, United Kingdom > > *?It?s Rigged!?: The Disruption That Reverberates When Youth Vocalize That > the System Is Fixed* > > M. Lisette Lopez, Univeristy of California, Berkeley, United States; > Kalonji Nzinga, University of Colorado at Boulder, United States > > > *Learners? Voices and the Transformation of Schooling Towards a > Sustainable Society * > Alfredo Jornet, University of Oslo, Department of Teacher Education and > School Research, Spain; Antti Rajala, University of Helsinki, Finland > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200610/3c613498/attachment.html From VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za Wed Jun 10 01:35:33 2020 From: VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za (Mary van der Riet) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 08:35:33 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-generating CHAT: Interesting symposium on July 2, at 5 pm Central European Summer Time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you, this helps Best wishes Mary Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor, Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa Address: Pvt Bag X01, Scottsville, Pietermaritzburg, 3201, RSA Landline: +27 033 260 6163 Email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za Researchgate: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mary_Van_Der_Riet__;!!Mih3wA!T7vMpXPVnlR3Ulfp3FTpWccJEuogUyNkhe_TiOB_CNCiiOIerWqgrGIFEs_-HHE41g6LMQ$ UKZN: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://sahs.ukzn.ac.za/staff-profile/psychology/mary-van-der-riet/__;!!Mih3wA!T7vMpXPVnlR3Ulfp3FTpWccJEuogUyNkhe_TiOB_CNCiiOIerWqgrGIFEs_-HHEUR0yzpw$ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Antti Rajala Sent: Wednesday, 10 June 2020 10:22 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-generating CHAT: Interesting symposium on July 2, at 5 pm Central European Summer Time Dear Mary Thank you for your good question. Let me respond to everyone, because others might have similar questions. You can find the symposium in the program of the conference I linked. Here is the link to the program: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://earli.org/SIG10-21-25*programme__;Iw!!Mih3wA!T7vMpXPVnlR3Ulfp3FTpWccJEuogUyNkhe_TiOB_CNCiiOIerWqgrGIFEs_-HHHGBP2kYw$ It is both in the "downloadable PDF file with presenter details" and described in the website as one of the invited symposia under the heading Programme. You do not need to be paying EARLI member to register to the conference and join the symposium. When you follow the registration link, there is a chance (and link!) to do an EARLI account, which does not cost anything. Hope this is helpful! If you or others have further questions, you can consult my personal email antti.rajala (at) helsinki.fi and I am happy to advise on the matter. All best, Antti On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 10:39, Mary van der Riet > wrote: Dear Anttii Thank you for this. When I link into Earli I don?t see this particular symposium. Do you need to be a full member to access the symposium. Please could you email me directly on vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za Best wishes Mary Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor, Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa Address: Pvt Bag X01, Scottsville, Pietermaritzburg, 3201, RSA Landline: +27 033 260 6163 Email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za Researchgate: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mary_Van_Der_Riet__;!!Mih3wA!T7vMpXPVnlR3Ulfp3FTpWccJEuogUyNkhe_TiOB_CNCiiOIerWqgrGIFEs_-HHE41g6LMQ$ UKZN: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://sahs.ukzn.ac.za/staff-profile/psychology/mary-van-der-riet/__;!!Mih3wA!T7vMpXPVnlR3Ulfp3FTpWccJEuogUyNkhe_TiOB_CNCiiOIerWqgrGIFEs_-HHEUR0yzpw$ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Antti Rajala Sent: Tuesday, 09 June 2020 22:16 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re-generating CHAT: Interesting symposium on July 2, at 5 pm Central European Summer Time Dear Xmca-folks As many of you know there has been an important initiative https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://re-generatingchat.com/__;!!Mih3wA!T7vMpXPVnlR3Ulfp3FTpWccJEuogUyNkhe_TiOB_CNCiiOIerWqgrGIFEs_-HHFqEmvQgg$ to critically revise and invigorate cultural historical theory, sponsored among others by the Mind Culture and Activity journal. One outcome of this project is an online invited symposium to be held as part of European Association of Research on Learning and Instruction (EARLI) SIG conference on July 1-3, 2020. There is still room in the conference and there is no fee for participation. There is also other interesting program in the conference, see https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://earli.org/SIG10-21-25__;!!Mih3wA!T7vMpXPVnlR3Ulfp3FTpWccJEuogUyNkhe_TiOB_CNCiiOIerWqgrGIFEs_-HHGQSQgCCg$ The Re-gen symposium is titled Learning from Learners: Power, Resistance and Learners' Voices in an Era of Uncertainty. See the info below. (The symposium was originally accepted in the Cultural-historical SIG of AERA 2020 conference) Please note that the deadline for registrations is already on June 15th. If interested, you can register here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://earli.org/SIG10-21-25*practical-info__;Iw!!Mih3wA!T7vMpXPVnlR3Ulfp3FTpWccJEuogUyNkhe_TiOB_CNCiiOIerWqgrGIFEs_-HHEvW3NW7g$ Hope to see you there! On behalf of the conference organizers and the symposium organizers, Antti Rajala (Co-coordinator of EARLI SIG on Educational Theory) Learning from Learners: Power, Resistance and Learners' Voices in an Era of Uncertainty Organisers: Charles Underwood, University of California, Berkeley, United States; Mara Mahmood, University of California Berkeley, United States; Sophina ChoudryUniversity of Manchester, United Kingdom; Arturo Cortez, University of Colorado, Boulder, United States; Alfredo Jornet, University of Oslo, Department of Teacher Education and School Research, Spain; Antti Rajala, University of Helsinki, Finland; Michael Bakal, University of Berkeley, United States; M. Lisette Lopez, Univeristy of California, Berkeley, United States; Kalonji Nzinga, University of Colorado at Boulder, United States; Jos? Ram?n Liz?rraga, University of Colorado, United States; Mike Cole, University of California, San Diego, United States Chairs: Mara Mahmood, University of California Berkeley, United States; Charles Underwood, University of California, Berkeley, United States; Kalonji Nzinga, University of Colorado at Boulder, United States Discussants: Angela Booker, University of California, San Diego, United States; Anna Stetsenko, The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, United States Abstract This symposium engages panelists and participants in the exploration and re-conceptualization of ?learners? voices? from a cultural-historical activity theory (CHAT) perspective that approaches education as a struggle to overcome dominant paradigms that thwart learners? development and agency in the face of an uncertain future. As part of a larger effort to re-generate CHAT, this symposium will articulate and elaborate the concept of "learners? voices" as a tool for guiding students, teachers, researchers, activists, and policy-makers in re-orienting pedagogy to cultivate their critical voices, empowering learners to become agentive sociopolitical actors in charge of their own futures-in-the-making. The concept of voice has been used in educational research, design and practice for calling out and naming the hidden power relations in systems of oppression and plays a role in learner-centered approaches (Corbett & Wilson, 1995) culturally-relevant pedagogies (Ladson-Billings 1994; Lee, 2006), hybrid language education (Guti?rrez, 1999), and critical race theories and pedagogies (Mensah, 2019). Panelists reconceptualize voice as ?learners? voices? broadly to convey agentive engagement in meaning making in the face of unequal power relations. While the panelists work in different social contexts (see presentation abstracts) all employ the concept of ?learners? voices? and explore ways of encouraging multivoicedness, speaking truth to power, and recognizing learners? voices as an educational necessity in an uncertain global context. The structure of the symposium encourages dialogue designed to promote the collective co-construction and development of the concept of "learners? voices" as a critical tool for expanding our understanding of teaching and learning. Papers Participatory Design Research for Climate Resilience and Activism Michael Bakal, University of Berkeley, United States ?Trump Would Just Get Sucked Into a Black Hole?: Youthful Digital Imaginings of New Futures Jos? Ram?n Liz?rraga, University of Colorado, United States; Arturo Cortez, University of Colorado, Boulder, United States Contradictory Activities Leading to Differential Learning in a Heterogeneous Mathematics Classroom Sophina Choudry, University of Manchester, United Kingdom ?It?s Rigged!?: The Disruption That Reverberates When Youth Vocalize That the System Is Fixed M. Lisette Lopez, Univeristy of California, Berkeley, United States; Kalonji Nzinga, University of Colorado at Boulder, United States Learners? Voices and the Transformation of Schooling Towards a Sustainable Society Alfredo Jornet, University of Oslo, Department of Teacher Education and School Research, Spain; Antti Rajala, University of Helsinki, Finland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200610/cb43423a/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Wed Jun 10 08:08:53 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 01:08:53 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <000201d63e70$9346ac70$b9d40550$@att.net> References: <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <361553c6-674e-5758-0ec7-21e5be7cbce 5@marxists.org> <000401d63da3$4a3047d0$de90d770$@att.net> <0D51973B-8E27-49A8-83AE-A5BF3E79E133@cantab.net> <30f8a2a9-1a10-960f-fdc7 -6b50d3487ba7@marxists.org> <000201d63e70$9346ac70$b9d40550$@att.net> Message-ID: <007afb33-21e7-4c05-2138-3cd48ab788c8@marxists.org> There is a good run through of the data here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxPVSdHT5MQ&t=1365s__;!!Mih3wA!TTpYwLwgt8a0qUfpHv1qmNoajkLwHRw-6pwpeltWAK58o0kIvPQrZpmOzAuLaxJXFJPmZg$ that's 22m45s in. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 10/06/2020 1:13 am, Peg Griffin, Ph.D. wrote: > > Yes everyone suffers, but it is about white supremacy > rather than racism. > > Other people in other places have other things, maybe > other race supremacies to rise against. > > Whether it?s race or not, it?s people with the knees on > the necks that must lead and be followed. > > Who follows, here, is whoever isn?t a white supremacist. > > It is painful and time taking to apprehend what white > privilege means in action. It is difficult to persevere in > the denial of white privilege in one?s own life. > > It?s a careful distinction ? between white supremacy and > racism. > > Here and now the reduction to racism deflects us to an > ?epigenetic byway,? provides room to protect dangerous > institutions and practices, to produce misshapen changes. > ?White supremacists make references to, praise, make > symbols of, people who are not white whose jobs or > statements or health; it is supposed to be prima facie > evidence that they aren?t racist. More long term and > subtly, it divides us, hides them, and maligns and > degrades us. > > The ties that bind white supremacy and fascism are > blatant, as Mike?s references to the late 30?s highlight. > > PG > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Monday, June 8, 2020 11:02 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > No, the American Century is over, I believe, even if > America can take a leading part in ushering in the new > epoch, I think it will be to release the rest of the world > from the USA's mania to micromanage everyone else. The > pandemic was, I think, the catalyst which brought the > issues to the surface which were bubbling away for a long > time. And might I venture the opinion that the vast > investment in this BLM movement by young "white" people is > in large part because cops kill a hell of a lot of white > kids as well, and everyone is suffering under the system > in which African Americans are victimised. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > On 9/06/2020 12:11 pm, Martin Packer wrote: > > On Jun 8, 2020, at 8:34 PM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > Even in the depths of degradation and ignominy > America can lead, it seems. > > This is something worth and worthy of theorizing, > isn?t it?! Turns out the World Perezhivanie is not the > coronavirus, or at least not the coronavirus alone. It > is racism. And the global subject that has just been > formed has found its lead in the US. The US Century > may not be over after all! > > Martin > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200611/859686c1/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Wed Jun 10 12:10:00 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 14:10:00 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <5C5AFC9F-6941-4188-B1C7-41B58AB5EFD5@cantab.net> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/__;!!Mih3wA!S2mWxWtYZXktNivc9GOaZzE8nQoqJ0TmLqnTuoEidjOQew2pZXQQZXmnKCt6MMPHQ4YmFA$ In 2015, The Washington Post began to log every fatal shooting by an on-duty police officer in the United States. In that time there have been more than 5,000 such shootings recorded by The Post?. Although half of the people shot and killed by police are white, black Americans are shot at a disproportionate rate . They account for less than 13 percent of the U.S. population, but are killed by police at more than twice the rate of white Americans. Hispanic Americans are also killed by police at a disproportionate rate. Martin > On Jun 7, 2020, at 12:42 PM, Anthony Barra wrote: > > Hi Michael, > > Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 multivariate analysis, groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on the matter): https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html__;!!Mih3wA!S2mWxWtYZXktNivc9GOaZzE8nQoqJ0TmLqnTuoEidjOQew2pZXQQZXmnKCt6MMOeABepDg$ > > I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in graduate economics, though I could be mistaken there. > > I respect this community and in no way seek to bring dis- or misinformation into it, especially on topics that may require numerous key strokes just to get one's footing. > > Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's not argue. > > Anthony > > > > On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael > wrote: > Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. > > > > I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well founded social science. > > > > What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. > > > > These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. > > > > Michael > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Bill Kerr > Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis > > > > hi Anthony, > > I watched both videos. > > > > Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not disproportionate murder of black people. > > > > Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. > > > > There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still not widely understood. > > > > Thank you > > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate to! What a year so far. > > > > I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone potentially curious: > > First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!S2mWxWtYZXktNivc9GOaZzE8nQoqJ0TmLqnTuoEidjOQew2pZXQQZXmnKCt6MMPSnGoO2w$ featuring Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) > > > > and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!S2mWxWtYZXktNivc9GOaZzE8nQoqJ0TmLqnTuoEidjOQew2pZXQQZXmnKCt6MMMelLipzQ$ (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. > > > > Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against the headwinds a fair amount. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, > > > > I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them here and in the streets for a little while still. > > > > To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, shouldn't it? > > > > I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? > > > > I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. > > > > NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! > > > > Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might appreciate. > > > > We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is just one. > > > > Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can rationalize their dear riot gear. > > > > Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? > > > > I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. > > > > There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in there? > > > > I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. > > > > I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are protesting? > > > > There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." > > > > I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. > > > > My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to heavy. > > > > Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more of it. > > > > My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. > > > > The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. > > > > I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? > > > > The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right to love one another. > > > > That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or right. > > > > That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us doesn't. > > > > I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. > > > > Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. > > > > I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. > > > > Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. > > > > Thank you all in advance for your contributions. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200610/3d4aa616/attachment.html From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Wed Jun 10 13:34:54 2020 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 14:34:54 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <5C5AFC9F-6941-4188-B1C7-41B58AB5EFD5@cantab.net> References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <5C5AFC9F-6941-4188-B1C7-41B58AB5EFD5@cantab.net> Message-ID: Anthony, Have you had a chance to dig into the Fryer data to see whether the assumptions that he makes in controlling for variables are reasonable? And whether he is justified in coming up with such a very different conclusion from the Washington Post research that Martin cited (as well as most other research that I've seen)? In your original post, you characterized Fryer's study as "groundbreaking" so I assume that you had your reasons for giving it such a positive evaluation and felt it was sound in its reasoning and perhaps had some kinds of insights that all the other researchers didn't. I'm interested to hear what you've turned up. Very best, greg On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 1:31 PM Martin Packer wrote: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/__;!!Mih3wA!Shqs3OD689e0Ovix0bSNtd32esN8kS7Hda_MujiV9bSl5F9BLq3ustuvMvWfrJGfNcMFpg$ > > > In 2015, The Washington Post began to log every fatal shooting > by > an on-duty police officer in the United States. In that time there have > been more than 5,000 such shootings > recorded > by The Post?. > > Although half of the people shot and killed by police are white, black > Americans are shot at a disproportionate rate > . > They account for less than 13 percent of the U.S. population, but are > killed by police at more than twice the rate of white Americans. Hispanic > Americans are also killed by police at a disproportionate rate. > > > Martin > > > > > > > On Jun 7, 2020, at 12:42 PM, Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Hi Michael, > > Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 multivariate analysis, > groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on > the matter): > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html__;!!Mih3wA!Shqs3OD689e0Ovix0bSNtd32esN8kS7Hda_MujiV9bSl5F9BLq3ustuvMvWfrJEJzqhKbQ$ > > > > I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in graduate economics, though I > could be mistaken there. > > I respect this community and in no way seek to bring dis- or > misinformation into it, especially on topics that may require numerous key > strokes just to get one's footing. > > Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's not argue. > > Anthony > > > > On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael wrote: > >> Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. What >> makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from very >> early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have >> strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few >> key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. >> >> >> >> I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well >> founded social science. >> >> >> >> What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was >> one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to >> proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The >> list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is >> possible in this day and age. >> >> >> >> These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. >> >> >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *On Behalf Of *Bill Kerr >> *Sent:* Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >> >> >> >> hi Anthony, >> >> I watched both videos. >> >> >> >> Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a >> half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they >> murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the >> police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not >> disproportionate murder of black people. >> >> >> >> Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, >> that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, >> and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, >> arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American >> DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from >> the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. >> >> >> >> There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is >> one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose >> from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they >> were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which >> led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency >> which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This >> history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, >> but is still not widely understood. >> >> >> >> Thank you >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >> I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, >> and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate >> to! What a year so far. >> >> >> >> I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone >> potentially curious: >> >> First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!Shqs3OD689e0Ovix0bSNtd32esN8kS7Hda_MujiV9bSl5F9BLq3ustuvMvWfrJGtTTFtZw$ >> featuring >> Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link >> that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) >> >> >> >> and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle >> commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!Shqs3OD689e0Ovix0bSNtd32esN8kS7Hda_MujiV9bSl5F9BLq3ustuvMvWfrJHWd-ttGw$ >> >> (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his >> perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. >> >> >> >> Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these >> videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against >> the headwinds a fair amount. >> >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, >> >> >> >> I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot >> of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, >> including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them >> here and in the streets for a little while still. >> >> >> >> To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the >> color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for >> him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle >> small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, >> shouldn't it? >> >> >> >> I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we >> must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter >> violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky >> chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with >> flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? >> >> >> >> I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in >> unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. >> >> >> >> NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! >> >> >> >> Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might >> appreciate. >> >> >> >> We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of >> desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is >> just one. >> >> >> >> Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if >> there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by >> peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and >> the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can >> rationalize their dear riot gear. >> >> >> >> Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and >> clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is >> referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." >> They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who >> architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like >> watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a >> beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the >> antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I >> wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be >> solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? >> >> >> >> I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember >> coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in >> 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed >> looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. >> Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. >> >> >> >> There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few >> nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This >> morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows >> boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think >> these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the >> night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that >> street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought >> maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in >> there? >> >> >> >> I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray >> paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in >> a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. >> >> >> >> I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are >> protesting? >> >> >> >> There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African >> American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the >> world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, >> well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those >> people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." >> I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe >> it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it >> will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." >> >> >> >> I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting >> dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. >> >> >> >> My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire >> point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built >> upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this >> color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from >> another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to >> heavy. >> >> >> >> Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more >> of it. >> >> >> >> My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far >> more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever >> fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways >> the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being >> institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. >> >> >> >> The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental >> exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. >> >> >> >> I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how >> would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like >> now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled >> even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? >> >> >> >> The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human >> rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right >> to love one another. >> >> >> >> That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us >> matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or >> right. >> >> >> >> That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us >> doesn't. >> >> >> >> I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to >> vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. >> >> >> >> Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where >> Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until >> Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, >> if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. >> >> >> >> I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change >> might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. >> >> >> >> Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way >> to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. >> >> >> >> Thank you all in advance for your contributions. >> >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >> >> >> > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!Shqs3OD689e0Ovix0bSNtd32esN8kS7Hda_MujiV9bSl5F9BLq3ustuvMvWfrJF8_yJcsQ$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!Shqs3OD689e0Ovix0bSNtd32esN8kS7Hda_MujiV9bSl5F9BLq3ustuvMvWfrJGzSE1zhg$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200610/9d9098f4/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Wed Jun 10 13:45:25 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 16:45:25 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <5C5AFC9F-6941-4188-B1C7-41B58AB5EFD5@cantab.net> Message-ID: Yes, Greg. I read all it all in depth 4 years ago (i.e., 4 years before this topic broached your radar). Maybe one day we'll chat when I have faith it will be in good faith. No offense, but it's just how your body of work comes across to me. Anthony On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, Greg Thompson wrote: > Anthony, > Have you had a chance to dig into the Fryer data to see whether the > assumptions that he makes in controlling for variables are reasonable? And > whether he is justified in coming up with such a very different conclusion > from the Washington Post research that Martin cited (as well as most > other research that I've seen)? > In your original post, you characterized Fryer's study as "groundbreaking" > so I assume that you had your reasons for giving it such a positive > evaluation and felt it was sound in its reasoning and perhaps had some > kinds of insights that all the other researchers didn't. I'm interested to > hear what you've turned up. > Very best, > greg > > On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 1:31 PM Martin Packer wrote: > >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/__;!!Mih3wA!TD8KCL_NzhbLzyBNHeH6fuPksCb9MEXVt8JvsjseITRKYIOetZxV8jezYmFlaMUVXcKh6w$ >> police-shootings-database/ >> >> >> In 2015, The Washington Post began to log every fatal shooting >> by >> an on-duty police officer in the United States. In that time there have >> been more than 5,000 such shootings >> recorded >> by The Post?. >> >> Although half of the people shot and killed by police are white, black >> Americans are shot at a disproportionate rate >> . >> They account for less than 13 percent of the U.S. population, but are >> killed by police at more than twice the rate of white Americans. Hispanic >> Americans are also killed by police at a disproportionate rate. >> >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jun 7, 2020, at 12:42 PM, Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >> Hi Michael, >> >> Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 multivariate analysis, >> groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on >> the matter): https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/__;!!Mih3wA!TD8KCL_NzhbLzyBNHeH6fuPksCb9MEXVt8JvsjseITRKYIOetZxV8jezYmFlaMWKxhlSzQ$ >> surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force- >> but-not-in-shootings.html >> >> >> >> I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in graduate economics, though >> I could be mistaken there. >> >> I respect this community and in no way seek to bring dis- or >> misinformation into it, especially on topics that may require numerous key >> strokes just to get one's footing. >> >> Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's not argue. >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael wrote: >> >>> Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. >>> What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from >>> very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have >>> strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few >>> key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. >>> >>> >>> >>> I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well >>> founded social science. >>> >>> >>> >>> What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions >>> was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to >>> proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The >>> list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is >>> possible in this day and age. >>> >>> >>> >>> These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with >>> anybody. >>> >>> >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> *On Behalf Of *Bill Kerr >>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >>> >>> >>> >>> hi Anthony, >>> >>> I watched both videos. >>> >>> >>> >>> Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a >>> half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they >>> murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the >>> police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not >>> disproportionate murder of black people. >>> >>> >>> >>> Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American >>> race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and >>> MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black >>> disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is >>> the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose >>> in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school >>> experience. >>> >>> >>> >>> There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is >>> one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose >>> from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they >>> were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which >>> led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency >>> which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This >>> history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, >>> but is still not widely understood. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra >>> wrote: >>> >>> I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, >>> and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate >>> to! What a year so far. >>> >>> >>> >>> I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone >>> potentially curious: >>> >>> First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!TD8KCL_NzhbLzyBNHeH6fuPksCb9MEXVt8JvsjseITRKYIOetZxV8jezYmFlaMWtFODWKA$ >>> featuring >>> Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link >>> that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) >>> >>> >>> >>> and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle >>> commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!TD8KCL_NzhbLzyBNHeH6fuPksCb9MEXVt8JvsjseITRKYIOetZxV8jezYmFlaMVR3r1KRw$ >>> >>> (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his >>> perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. >>> >>> >>> >>> Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these >>> videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against >>> the headwinds a fair amount. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar >>> wrote: >>> >>> To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot >>> of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, >>> including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them >>> here and in the streets for a little while still. >>> >>> >>> >>> To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the >>> color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for >>> him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle >>> small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, >>> shouldn't it? >>> >>> >>> >>> I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, >>> we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter >>> violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky >>> chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with >>> flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? >>> >>> >>> >>> I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in >>> unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. >>> >>> >>> >>> NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! >>> >>> >>> >>> Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might >>> appreciate. >>> >>> >>> >>> We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of >>> desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is >>> just one. >>> >>> >>> >>> Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if >>> there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by >>> peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and >>> the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can >>> rationalize their dear riot gear. >>> >>> >>> >>> Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and >>> clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is >>> referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." >>> They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who >>> architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like >>> watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a >>> beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the >>> antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I >>> wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be >>> solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? >>> >>> >>> >>> I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember >>> coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in >>> 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed >>> looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. >>> Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. >>> >>> >>> >>> There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few >>> nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This >>> morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows >>> boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think >>> these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the >>> night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that >>> street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought >>> maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in >>> there? >>> >>> >>> >>> I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray >>> paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in >>> a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. >>> >>> >>> >>> I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are >>> protesting? >>> >>> >>> >>> There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African >>> American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the >>> world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, >>> well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those >>> people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." >>> I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe >>> it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it >>> will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." >>> >>> >>> >>> I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an >>> interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. >>> >>> >>> >>> My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the >>> entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow >>> built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with >>> this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from >>> another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to >>> heavy. >>> >>> >>> >>> Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more >>> of it. >>> >>> >>> >>> My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far >>> more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever >>> fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways >>> the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being >>> institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. >>> >>> >>> >>> The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental >>> exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. >>> >>> >>> >>> I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about >>> how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like >>> now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled >>> even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? >>> >>> >>> >>> The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human >>> rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right >>> to love one another. >>> >>> >>> >>> That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of >>> us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or >>> right. >>> >>> >>> >>> That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us >>> doesn't. >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to >>> vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. >>> >>> >>> >>> Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where >>> Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until >>> Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, >>> if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. >>> >>> >>> >>> I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive >>> change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the >>> cynic-within. >>> >>> >>> >>> Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a >>> way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you all in advance for your contributions. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>> >>> >>> >> > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!TD8KCL_NzhbLzyBNHeH6fuPksCb9MEXVt8JvsjseITRKYIOetZxV8jezYmFlaMWE2yPDCA$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!TD8KCL_NzhbLzyBNHeH6fuPksCb9MEXVt8JvsjseITRKYIOetZxV8jezYmFlaMVm0p16Jg$ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200610/95426c2e/attachment.html From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Wed Jun 10 14:34:36 2020 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 21:34:36 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <5C5AFC9F-6941-4188-B1C7-41B58AB5EFD5@cantab.net> , Message-ID: Ouch! Anthony, your comment to Greg - "Maybe one day we'll chat when I have faith it will be in good faith." struck me as a sucker punch. i've been on xmca since the daily of dial-up telephone internet in the 1990's and i've never read such a comment before. you could have addressed it to him through a back channel - not so public as it were. of course, i could be taking this comment too hard - words without physical visual/sound cues are difficult to interpret. best, phillip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200610/e08048a6/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Wed Jun 10 14:47:18 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:47:18 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <5C5AFC9F-6941-4188-B1C7-41B58AB5EFD5@cantab.net> Message-ID: Noted, thank you. On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, White, Phillip wrote: > Ouch! Anthony, your comment to Greg - > > "Maybe one day we'll chat when I have faith it will be in good faith." > > struck me as a sucker punch. > > i've been on xmca since the daily of dial-up telephone internet in the > 1990's and i've never read such a comment before. > > you could have addressed it to him through a back channel - not so public > as it were. > > of course, i could be taking this comment too hard - words without > physical visual/sound cues are difficult to interpret. > > best, > > phillip > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200610/20f9a82c/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Wed Jun 10 14:48:30 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 16:48:30 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <5C5AFC9F-6941-4188-B1C7-41B58AB5EFD5@cantab.net> Message-ID: Hey, Anthony, it was you who brought up Flyer?s work in the first place. There is, I think, no need to shift to an ad hominin argument. I too would like to know if you still consider Flyer?s analysis to be ?groundbreaking.? It was published in 2016, and the Washington Post only started collecting data in 2015. What you wrote, in fact, was that Flyer's work was "groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on the matter).? What do you say about the critiques of that work, and the more recent findings? Martin > On Jun 10, 2020, at 3:45 PM, Anthony Barra wrote: > > Yes, Greg. > > I read all it all in depth 4 years ago (i.e., 4 years before this topic broached your radar). > > Maybe one day we'll chat when I have faith it will be in good faith. > > No offense, but it's just how your body of work comes across to me. > > Anthony > > > > On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, Greg Thompson > wrote: > Anthony, > Have you had a chance to dig into the Fryer data to see whether the assumptions that he makes in controlling for variables are reasonable? And whether he is justified in coming up with such a very different conclusion from the Washington Post research that Martin cited (as well as most other research that I've seen)? > In your original post, you characterized Fryer's study as "groundbreaking" so I assume that you had your reasons for giving it such a positive evaluation and felt it was sound in its reasoning and perhaps had some kinds of insights that all the other researchers didn't. I'm interested to hear what you've turned up. > Very best, > greg > > On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 1:31 PM Martin Packer > wrote: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/__;!!Mih3wA!RyIjj_OBtf8HQldNdMQ9QNYUeFAByBkF7x2_93r7iAGX6_tG9arq2hJ5TcgQGCn0CCi-bw$ > > In 2015, The Washington Post began to log every fatal shooting by an on-duty police officer in the United States. In that time there have been more than 5,000 such shootings recorded by The Post?. > > Although half of the people shot and killed by police are white, black Americans are shot at a disproportionate rate . They account for less than 13 percent of the U.S. population, but are killed by police at more than twice the rate of white Americans. Hispanic Americans are also killed by police at a disproportionate rate. > > > Martin > > > > > > >> On Jun 7, 2020, at 12:42 PM, Anthony Barra > wrote: >> >> Hi Michael, >> >> Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 multivariate analysis, groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on the matter): https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html__;!!Mih3wA!RyIjj_OBtf8HQldNdMQ9QNYUeFAByBkF7x2_93r7iAGX6_tG9arq2hJ5TcgQGCmXcJX7OQ$ >> >> I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in graduate economics, though I could be mistaken there. >> >> I respect this community and in no way seek to bring dis- or misinformation into it, especially on topics that may require numerous key strokes just to get one's footing. >> >> Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's not argue. >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael > wrote: >> Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. >> >> >> >> I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well founded social science. >> >> >> >> What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. >> >> >> >> These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. >> >> >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Bill Kerr >> Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >> >> >> >> hi Anthony, >> >> I watched both videos. >> >> >> >> Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not disproportionate murder of black people. >> >> >> >> Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. >> >> >> >> There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still not widely understood. >> >> >> >> Thank you >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: >> >> I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate to! What a year so far. >> >> >> >> I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone potentially curious: >> >> First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!RyIjj_OBtf8HQldNdMQ9QNYUeFAByBkF7x2_93r7iAGX6_tG9arq2hJ5TcgQGClF7ghENA$ featuring Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) >> >> >> >> and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!RyIjj_OBtf8HQldNdMQ9QNYUeFAByBkF7x2_93r7iAGX6_tG9arq2hJ5TcgQGClCtATLdw$ (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. >> >> >> >> Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against the headwinds a fair amount. >> >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >> >> To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, >> >> >> >> I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them here and in the streets for a little while still. >> >> >> >> To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, shouldn't it? >> >> >> >> I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? >> >> >> >> I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. >> >> >> >> NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! >> >> >> >> Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might appreciate. >> >> >> >> We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is just one. >> >> >> >> Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can rationalize their dear riot gear. >> >> >> >> Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? >> >> >> >> I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. >> >> >> >> There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in there? >> >> >> >> I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. >> >> >> >> I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are protesting? >> >> >> >> There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." >> >> >> >> I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. >> >> >> >> My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to heavy. >> >> >> >> Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more of it. >> >> >> >> My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. >> >> >> >> The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. >> >> >> >> I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? >> >> >> >> The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right to love one another. >> >> >> >> That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or right. >> >> >> >> That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us doesn't. >> >> >> >> I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. >> >> >> >> Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. >> >> >> >> I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. >> >> >> >> Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. >> >> >> >> Thank you all in advance for your contributions. >> >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!RyIjj_OBtf8HQldNdMQ9QNYUeFAByBkF7x2_93r7iAGX6_tG9arq2hJ5TcgQGClRZf9FSQ$ > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!RyIjj_OBtf8HQldNdMQ9QNYUeFAByBkF7x2_93r7iAGX6_tG9arq2hJ5TcgQGCkkU2QNzg$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200610/813488d4/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Wed Jun 10 15:15:21 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:15:21 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <5C5AFC9F-6941-4188-B1C7-41B58AB5EFD5@cantab.net> Message-ID: By the way, Anthony, I don?t think you?ve talked on this forum about your own body of work. Are you the Anthony Barra at UCLA who does work on magnetic fields? That?s the only Google Scholar profile that I can find. Martin > On Jun 10, 2020, at 4:48 PM, Martin Packer wrote: > > Hey, Anthony, it was you who brought up Flyer?s work in the first place. There is, I think, no need to shift to an ad hominin argument. I too would like to know if you still consider Flyer?s analysis to be ?groundbreaking.? It was published in 2016, and the Washington Post only started collecting data in 2015. What you wrote, in fact, was that Flyer's work was "groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on the matter).? What do you say about the critiques of that work, and the more recent findings? > > Martin > > > > > >> On Jun 10, 2020, at 3:45 PM, Anthony Barra > wrote: >> >> Yes, Greg. >> >> I read all it all in depth 4 years ago (i.e., 4 years before this topic broached your radar). >> >> Maybe one day we'll chat when I have faith it will be in good faith. >> >> No offense, but it's just how your body of work comes across to me. >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, Greg Thompson > wrote: >> Anthony, >> Have you had a chance to dig into the Fryer data to see whether the assumptions that he makes in controlling for variables are reasonable? And whether he is justified in coming up with such a very different conclusion from the Washington Post research that Martin cited (as well as most other research that I've seen)? >> In your original post, you characterized Fryer's study as "groundbreaking" so I assume that you had your reasons for giving it such a positive evaluation and felt it was sound in its reasoning and perhaps had some kinds of insights that all the other researchers didn't. I'm interested to hear what you've turned up. >> Very best, >> greg >> >> On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 1:31 PM Martin Packer > wrote: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/__;!!Mih3wA!SwqTlYfqmU83c92PC-80F8RBA6EdKnOaoRPA7nP5sKBMlJ96K4R2dTKof9Os6FvYshq98g$ >> >> In 2015, The Washington Post began to log every fatal shooting by an on-duty police officer in the United States. In that time there have been more than 5,000 such shootings recorded by The Post?. >> >> Although half of the people shot and killed by police are white, black Americans are shot at a disproportionate rate . They account for less than 13 percent of the U.S. population, but are killed by police at more than twice the rate of white Americans. Hispanic Americans are also killed by police at a disproportionate rate. >> >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jun 7, 2020, at 12:42 PM, Anthony Barra > wrote: >>> >>> Hi Michael, >>> >>> Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 multivariate analysis, groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on the matter): https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html__;!!Mih3wA!SwqTlYfqmU83c92PC-80F8RBA6EdKnOaoRPA7nP5sKBMlJ96K4R2dTKof9Os6FtURM4X6g$ >>> >>> I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in graduate economics, though I could be mistaken there. >>> >>> I respect this community and in no way seek to bring dis- or misinformation into it, especially on topics that may require numerous key strokes just to get one's footing. >>> >>> Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's not argue. >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael > wrote: >>> Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. >>> >>> >>> >>> I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well founded social science. >>> >>> >>> >>> What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. >>> >>> >>> >>> These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. >>> >>> >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Bill Kerr >>> Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >>> >>> >>> >>> hi Anthony, >>> >>> I watched both videos. >>> >>> >>> >>> Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not disproportionate murder of black people. >>> >>> >>> >>> Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. >>> >>> >>> >>> There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still not widely understood. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: >>> >>> I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate to! What a year so far. >>> >>> >>> >>> I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone potentially curious: >>> >>> First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!SwqTlYfqmU83c92PC-80F8RBA6EdKnOaoRPA7nP5sKBMlJ96K4R2dTKof9Os6FtOJbUTtA$ featuring Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) >>> >>> >>> >>> and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!SwqTlYfqmU83c92PC-80F8RBA6EdKnOaoRPA7nP5sKBMlJ96K4R2dTKof9Os6FuVNP9C5A$ (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. >>> >>> >>> >>> Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against the headwinds a fair amount. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>> >>> To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them here and in the streets for a little while still. >>> >>> >>> >>> To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, shouldn't it? >>> >>> >>> >>> I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? >>> >>> >>> >>> I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. >>> >>> >>> >>> NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! >>> >>> >>> >>> Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might appreciate. >>> >>> >>> >>> We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is just one. >>> >>> >>> >>> Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can rationalize their dear riot gear. >>> >>> >>> >>> Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? >>> >>> >>> >>> I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. >>> >>> >>> >>> There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in there? >>> >>> >>> >>> I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. >>> >>> >>> >>> I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are protesting? >>> >>> >>> >>> There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." >>> >>> >>> >>> I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. >>> >>> >>> >>> My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to heavy. >>> >>> >>> >>> Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more of it. >>> >>> >>> >>> My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. >>> >>> >>> >>> The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. >>> >>> >>> >>> I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? >>> >>> >>> >>> The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right to love one another. >>> >>> >>> >>> That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or right. >>> >>> >>> >>> That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us doesn't. >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. >>> >>> >>> >>> Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. >>> >>> >>> >>> I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. >>> >>> >>> >>> Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you all in advance for your contributions. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!SwqTlYfqmU83c92PC-80F8RBA6EdKnOaoRPA7nP5sKBMlJ96K4R2dTKof9Os6FvMEhIDcQ$ >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!SwqTlYfqmU83c92PC-80F8RBA6EdKnOaoRPA7nP5sKBMlJ96K4R2dTKof9Os6FuyGgLGLg$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200610/d7c2f158/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Wed Jun 10 15:31:37 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 18:31:37 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <5C5AFC9F-6941-4188-B1C7-41B58AB5EFD5@cantab.net> Message-ID: Fair enough. It was a huge deal in 2016, the big NYT included (thus "groundbreaking"), and as far as I can tell, Fryer remains the gold standard in this narrow field of research. Obviously, numerous skeptics of the 'systemically-racist-America' hypothesis have been morivated to embrace Fryer's conclusions, with others motivated against. I can certainly be wrong, as I am outside my realm of expertise. To use Andy's term, my trust network (decidedly NOT right wing on this particular issue) has influenced my thinking in terms of the finer grained areas outside my own skillset. Maybe I'm wrong, who knows, or maybe this counterintuitive information has some merit. At least it's on the table, where it should be. Thank you, Martin. If I have the chance to read even more of Fryer's critics, as well as his forthcoming work, I will. Also, what are some of the follow up questions you might ask, re: your post from earlier today? For example, I think frequency of interactions (from what I hear, correlating more with economic status than to race) is a big variable. Thanks again, Anthony On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, Martin Packer wrote: > Hey, Anthony, it was you who brought up Flyer?s work in the first place. > There is, I think, no need to shift to an ad hominin argument. I too would > like to know if you still consider Flyer?s analysis to be ?groundbreaking.? > It was published in 2016, and the Washington Post only started collecting > data in 2015. What you wrote, in fact, was that Flyer's work was > "groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings > on the matter).? What do you say about the critiques of that work, and the > more recent findings? > > Martin > > > > > > On Jun 10, 2020, at 3:45 PM, Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Yes, Greg. > > I read all it all in depth 4 years ago (i.e., 4 years before this topic > broached your radar). > > Maybe one day we'll chat when I have faith it will be in good faith. > > No offense, but it's just how your body of work comes across to me. > > Anthony > > > > On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, Greg Thompson > wrote: > >> Anthony, >> Have you had a chance to dig into the Fryer data to see whether the >> assumptions that he makes in controlling for variables are reasonable? And >> whether he is justified in coming up with such a very different conclusion >> from the Washington Post research that Martin cited (as well as most >> other research that I've seen)? >> In your original post, you characterized Fryer's study as >> "groundbreaking" so I assume that you had your reasons for giving it such a >> positive evaluation and felt it was sound in its reasoning and perhaps had >> some kinds of insights that all the other researchers didn't. I'm >> interested to hear what you've turned up. >> Very best, >> greg >> >> On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 1:31 PM Martin Packer wrote: >> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic__;!!Mih3wA!Uj4I_SJJ_oLhXiG7RsGIuG-6AKAH8rht3tNK2XEf9oWrdQipC5QJXHuqpn83bzjMfESmiQ$ >>> e-shootings-database/ >>> >>> >>> In 2015, The Washington Post began to log every fatal shooting >>> by >>> an on-duty police officer in the United States. In that time there have >>> been more than 5,000 such shootings >>> recorded >>> by The Post?. >>> >>> Although half of the people shot and killed by police are white, black >>> Americans are shot at a disproportionate rate >>> . >>> They account for less than 13 percent of the U.S. population, but are >>> killed by police at more than twice the rate of white Americans. Hispanic >>> Americans are also killed by police at a disproportionate rate. >>> >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 7, 2020, at 12:42 PM, Anthony Barra >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Michael, >>> >>> Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 multivariate analysis, >>> groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on >>> the matter): https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprisin__;!!Mih3wA!Uj4I_SJJ_oLhXiG7RsGIuG-6AKAH8rht3tNK2XEf9oWrdQipC5QJXHuqpn83bzjy6oa0Ug$ >>> g-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in- >>> shootings.html >>> >>> >>> >>> I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in graduate economics, though >>> I could be mistaken there. >>> >>> I respect this community and in no way seek to bring dis- or >>> misinformation into it, especially on topics that may require numerous key >>> strokes just to get one's footing. >>> >>> Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's not argue. >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael wrote: >>> >>>> Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. >>>> What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from >>>> very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have >>>> strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few >>>> key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well >>>> founded social science. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions >>>> was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to >>>> proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The >>>> list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is >>>> possible in this day and age. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with >>>> anybody. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> du> *On Behalf Of *Bill Kerr >>>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> hi Anthony, >>>> >>>> I watched both videos. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on >>>> a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they >>>> murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the >>>> police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not >>>> disproportionate murder of black people. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American >>>> race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and >>>> MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black >>>> disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is >>>> the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose >>>> in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school >>>> experience. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is >>>> one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose >>>> from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they >>>> were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which >>>> led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency >>>> which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This >>>> history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, >>>> but is still not widely understood. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, >>>> and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate >>>> to! What a year so far. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone >>>> potentially curious: >>>> >>>> First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!Uj4I_SJJ_oLhXiG7RsGIuG-6AKAH8rht3tNK2XEf9oWrdQipC5QJXHuqpn83bzjxiYZ_yQ$ >>>> featuring >>>> Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link >>>> that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle >>>> commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!Uj4I_SJJ_oLhXiG7RsGIuG-6AKAH8rht3tNK2XEf9oWrdQipC5QJXHuqpn83bzj-0ETndg$ >>>> >>>> (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his >>>> perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these >>>> videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against >>>> the headwinds a fair amount. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Anthony >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the >>>> riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, >>>> including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them >>>> here and in the streets for a little while still. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the >>>> color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for >>>> him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle >>>> small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, >>>> shouldn't it? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, >>>> we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter >>>> violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky >>>> chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with >>>> flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in >>>> unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might >>>> appreciate. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of >>>> desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is >>>> just one. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if >>>> there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by >>>> peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and >>>> the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can >>>> rationalize their dear riot gear. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and >>>> clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is >>>> referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." >>>> They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who >>>> architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like >>>> watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a >>>> beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the >>>> antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I >>>> wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be >>>> solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember >>>> coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in >>>> 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed >>>> looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. >>>> Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few >>>> nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This >>>> morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows >>>> boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think >>>> these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the >>>> night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that >>>> street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought >>>> maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in >>>> there? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray >>>> paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in >>>> a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are >>>> protesting? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African >>>> American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the >>>> world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, >>>> well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those >>>> people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." >>>> I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe >>>> it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it >>>> will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an >>>> interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the >>>> entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow >>>> built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with >>>> this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from >>>> another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to >>>> heavy. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate >>>> more of it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far >>>> more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever >>>> fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways >>>> the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being >>>> institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental >>>> exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about >>>> how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like >>>> now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled >>>> even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human >>>> rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right >>>> to love one another. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of >>>> us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or >>>> right. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of >>>> us doesn't. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to >>>> vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright >>>> where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only >>>> until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect >>>> tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive >>>> change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the >>>> cynic-within. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a >>>> way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you all in advance for your contributions. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!Uj4I_SJJ_oLhXiG7RsGIuG-6AKAH8rht3tNK2XEf9oWrdQipC5QJXHuqpn83bzgBspf0nw$ >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!Uj4I_SJJ_oLhXiG7RsGIuG-6AKAH8rht3tNK2XEf9oWrdQipC5QJXHuqpn83bzhq4v1fWw$ >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200610/646054fc/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Wed Jun 10 15:34:00 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 18:34:00 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <5C5AFC9F-6941-4188-B1C7-41B58AB5EFD5@cantab.net> Message-ID: I teach 8th grade English, and make lightly watched youtube videos. ? On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, Martin Packer wrote: > By the way, Anthony, I don?t think you?ve talked on this forum about your > own body of work. Are you the Anthony Barra at UCLA who does work on > magnetic fields? That?s the only Google Scholar profile that I can find. > > Martin > > > > > On Jun 10, 2020, at 4:48 PM, Martin Packer wrote: > > Hey, Anthony, it was you who brought up Flyer?s work in the first place. > There is, I think, no need to shift to an ad hominin argument. I too would > like to know if you still consider Flyer?s analysis to be ?groundbreaking.? > It was published in 2016, and the Washington Post only started collecting > data in 2015. What you wrote, in fact, was that Flyer's work was > "groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings > on the matter).? What do you say about the critiques of that work, and the > more recent findings? > > Martin > > > > > > On Jun 10, 2020, at 3:45 PM, Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Yes, Greg. > > I read all it all in depth 4 years ago (i.e., 4 years before this topic > broached your radar). > > Maybe one day we'll chat when I have faith it will be in good faith. > > No offense, but it's just how your body of work comes across to me. > > Anthony > > > > On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, Greg Thompson > wrote: > >> Anthony, >> Have you had a chance to dig into the Fryer data to see whether the >> assumptions that he makes in controlling for variables are reasonable? And >> whether he is justified in coming up with such a very different conclusion >> from the Washington Post research that Martin cited (as well as most >> other research that I've seen)? >> In your original post, you characterized Fryer's study as >> "groundbreaking" so I assume that you had your reasons for giving it such a >> positive evaluation and felt it was sound in its reasoning and perhaps had >> some kinds of insights that all the other researchers didn't. I'm >> interested to hear what you've turned up. >> Very best, >> greg >> >> On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 1:31 PM Martin Packer wrote: >> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic__;!!Mih3wA!UqcVmm7PtIEsRTzoar0yktRqOov2TR-lfmd9BHZdA3CW2bD4PVOJOuS8_ZD_zokKJabKBA$ >>> e-shootings-database/ >>> >>> >>> In 2015, The Washington Post began to log every fatal shooting >>> by >>> an on-duty police officer in the United States. In that time there have >>> been more than 5,000 such shootings >>> recorded >>> by The Post?. >>> >>> Although half of the people shot and killed by police are white, black >>> Americans are shot at a disproportionate rate >>> . >>> They account for less than 13 percent of the U.S. population, but are >>> killed by police at more than twice the rate of white Americans. Hispanic >>> Americans are also killed by police at a disproportionate rate. >>> >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 7, 2020, at 12:42 PM, Anthony Barra >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Michael, >>> >>> Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 multivariate analysis, >>> groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on >>> the matter): https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprisin__;!!Mih3wA!UqcVmm7PtIEsRTzoar0yktRqOov2TR-lfmd9BHZdA3CW2bD4PVOJOuS8_ZD_zokUz3X9cA$ >>> g-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not- >>> in-shootings.html >>> >>> >>> >>> I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in graduate economics, though >>> I could be mistaken there. >>> >>> I respect this community and in no way seek to bring dis- or >>> misinformation into it, especially on topics that may require numerous key >>> strokes just to get one's footing. >>> >>> Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's not argue. >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael wrote: >>> >>>> Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. >>>> What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from >>>> very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have >>>> strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few >>>> key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well >>>> founded social science. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions >>>> was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to >>>> proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The >>>> list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is >>>> possible in this day and age. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with >>>> anybody. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> du> *On Behalf Of *Bill Kerr >>>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> hi Anthony, >>>> >>>> I watched both videos. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on >>>> a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they >>>> murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the >>>> police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not >>>> disproportionate murder of black people. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American >>>> race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and >>>> MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black >>>> disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is >>>> the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose >>>> in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school >>>> experience. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is >>>> one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose >>>> from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they >>>> were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which >>>> led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency >>>> which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This >>>> history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, >>>> but is still not widely understood. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, >>>> and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate >>>> to! What a year so far. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone >>>> potentially curious: >>>> >>>> First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!UqcVmm7PtIEsRTzoar0yktRqOov2TR-lfmd9BHZdA3CW2bD4PVOJOuS8_ZD_zolzjzfq2w$ >>>> featuring >>>> Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link >>>> that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle >>>> commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!UqcVmm7PtIEsRTzoar0yktRqOov2TR-lfmd9BHZdA3CW2bD4PVOJOuS8_ZD_zomkxk_rRw$ >>>> >>>> (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his >>>> perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these >>>> videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against >>>> the headwinds a fair amount. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Anthony >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the >>>> riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, >>>> including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them >>>> here and in the streets for a little while still. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the >>>> color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for >>>> him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle >>>> small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, >>>> shouldn't it? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, >>>> we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter >>>> violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky >>>> chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with >>>> flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in >>>> unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might >>>> appreciate. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of >>>> desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is >>>> just one. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if >>>> there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by >>>> peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and >>>> the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can >>>> rationalize their dear riot gear. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and >>>> clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is >>>> referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." >>>> They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who >>>> architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like >>>> watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a >>>> beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the >>>> antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I >>>> wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be >>>> solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember >>>> coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in >>>> 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed >>>> looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. >>>> Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few >>>> nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This >>>> morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows >>>> boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think >>>> these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the >>>> night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that >>>> street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought >>>> maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in >>>> there? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray >>>> paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in >>>> a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are >>>> protesting? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African >>>> American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the >>>> world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, >>>> well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those >>>> people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." >>>> I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe >>>> it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it >>>> will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an >>>> interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the >>>> entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow >>>> built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with >>>> this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from >>>> another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to >>>> heavy. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate >>>> more of it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far >>>> more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever >>>> fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways >>>> the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being >>>> institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental >>>> exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about >>>> how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like >>>> now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled >>>> even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human >>>> rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right >>>> to love one another. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of >>>> us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or >>>> right. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of >>>> us doesn't. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to >>>> vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright >>>> where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only >>>> until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect >>>> tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive >>>> change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the >>>> cynic-within. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a >>>> way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you all in advance for your contributions. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!UqcVmm7PtIEsRTzoar0yktRqOov2TR-lfmd9BHZdA3CW2bD4PVOJOuS8_ZD_zokGmH_iEQ$ >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!UqcVmm7PtIEsRTzoar0yktRqOov2TR-lfmd9BHZdA3CW2bD4PVOJOuS8_ZD_zonImZpqKg$ >> >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200610/19e434a2/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Wed Jun 10 15:49:32 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:49:32 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <5C5AFC9F-6941-4188-B1C7-41B58AB5EFD5@cantab.net> Message-ID: <44B4E809-8513-46CA-8961-CEE44249F01A@cantab.net> Well, teaching 8th grade English is certainly a tougher job than mine! I think all the researchers studying this issue correct for frequency of interaction. From what I have read (quickly), the problem some people have with Flyer?s analysis is that he made an ?economic? correction. Researchers make an assumption that the police will want to interact more with people who are more likely to be breaking the law, so that they are more likely to make an arrest, which is what they get rewarded for. (Whether that is an ethical strategy is another matter, though hardly unimportant.) But it makes little sense to think that the police will want to interact more with people they are more likely to kill. There is no obvious payoff in that. But Flyer made that assumption, and corrected his data accordingly. And of course Peg pointed out that Flyer was using police reports as his source of data, which is also a problem. That?s why the Washington Post collects data from other sources. Martin > On Jun 10, 2020, at 5:31 PM, Anthony Barra wrote: > > Fair enough. It was a huge deal in 2016, the big NYT included (thus "groundbreaking"), and as far as I can tell, Fryer remains the gold standard in this narrow field of research. Obviously, numerous skeptics of the 'systemically-racist-America' hypothesis have been morivated to embrace Fryer's conclusions, with others motivated against. > > I can certainly be wrong, as I am outside my realm of expertise. To use Andy's term, my trust network (decidedly NOT right wing on this particular issue) has influenced my thinking in terms of the finer grained areas outside my own skillset. Maybe I'm wrong, who knows, or maybe this counterintuitive information has some merit. At least it's on the table, where it should be. > > Thank you, Martin. If I have the chance to read even more of Fryer's critics, as well as his forthcoming work, I will. Also, what are some of the follow up questions you might ask, re: your post from earlier today? For example, I think frequency of interactions (from what I hear, correlating more with economic status than to race) is a big variable. > > Thanks again, > Anthony > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, Martin Packer > wrote: > Hey, Anthony, it was you who brought up Flyer?s work in the first place. There is, I think, no need to shift to an ad hominin argument. I too would like to know if you still consider Flyer?s analysis to be ?groundbreaking.? It was published in 2016, and the Washington Post only started collecting data in 2015. What you wrote, in fact, was that Flyer's work was "groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on the matter).? What do you say about the critiques of that work, and the more recent findings? > > Martin > > > > > >> On Jun 10, 2020, at 3:45 PM, Anthony Barra > wrote: >> >> Yes, Greg. >> >> I read all it all in depth 4 years ago (i.e., 4 years before this topic broached your radar). >> >> Maybe one day we'll chat when I have faith it will be in good faith. >> >> No offense, but it's just how your body of work comes across to me. >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, Greg Thompson > wrote: >> Anthony, >> Have you had a chance to dig into the Fryer data to see whether the assumptions that he makes in controlling for variables are reasonable? And whether he is justified in coming up with such a very different conclusion from the Washington Post research that Martin cited (as well as most other research that I've seen)? >> In your original post, you characterized Fryer's study as "groundbreaking" so I assume that you had your reasons for giving it such a positive evaluation and felt it was sound in its reasoning and perhaps had some kinds of insights that all the other researchers didn't. I'm interested to hear what you've turned up. >> Very best, >> greg >> >> On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 1:31 PM Martin Packer > wrote: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/__;!!Mih3wA!SflRvXimGmK7dcTUdg9bSj8JKQo_u6fSvpiaFPLC8SXTt1rIhxUtNkRev3ZczvTO8uaaAg$ >> >> In 2015, The Washington Post began to log every fatal shooting by an on-duty police officer in the United States. In that time there have been more than 5,000 such shootings recorded by The Post?. >> >> Although half of the people shot and killed by police are white, black Americans are shot at a disproportionate rate . They account for less than 13 percent of the U.S. population, but are killed by police at more than twice the rate of white Americans. Hispanic Americans are also killed by police at a disproportionate rate. >> >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jun 7, 2020, at 12:42 PM, Anthony Barra > wrote: >>> >>> Hi Michael, >>> >>> Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 multivariate analysis, groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on the matter): https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html__;!!Mih3wA!SflRvXimGmK7dcTUdg9bSj8JKQo_u6fSvpiaFPLC8SXTt1rIhxUtNkRev3ZczvQUZqDXnw$ >>> >>> I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in graduate economics, though I could be mistaken there. >>> >>> I respect this community and in no way seek to bring dis- or misinformation into it, especially on topics that may require numerous key strokes just to get one's footing. >>> >>> Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's not argue. >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael > wrote: >>> Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. >>> >>> >>> >>> I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well founded social science. >>> >>> >>> >>> What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age. >>> >>> >>> >>> These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody. >>> >>> >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Bill Kerr >>> Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >>> >>> >>> >>> hi Anthony, >>> >>> I watched both videos. >>> >>> >>> >>> Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not disproportionate murder of black people. >>> >>> >>> >>> Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience. >>> >>> >>> >>> There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still not widely understood. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: >>> >>> I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate to! What a year so far. >>> >>> >>> >>> I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone potentially curious: >>> >>> First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!SflRvXimGmK7dcTUdg9bSj8JKQo_u6fSvpiaFPLC8SXTt1rIhxUtNkRev3ZczvReTpzXxA$ featuring Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) >>> >>> >>> >>> and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!SflRvXimGmK7dcTUdg9bSj8JKQo_u6fSvpiaFPLC8SXTt1rIhxUtNkRev3ZczvSc5ckU8A$ (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. >>> >>> >>> >>> Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against the headwinds a fair amount. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>> >>> To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them here and in the streets for a little while still. >>> >>> >>> >>> To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, shouldn't it? >>> >>> >>> >>> I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? >>> >>> >>> >>> I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. >>> >>> >>> >>> NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! >>> >>> >>> >>> Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might appreciate. >>> >>> >>> >>> We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is just one. >>> >>> >>> >>> Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can rationalize their dear riot gear. >>> >>> >>> >>> Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? >>> >>> >>> >>> I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. >>> >>> >>> >>> There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in there? >>> >>> >>> >>> I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. >>> >>> >>> >>> I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are protesting? >>> >>> >>> >>> There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." >>> >>> >>> >>> I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. >>> >>> >>> >>> My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to heavy. >>> >>> >>> >>> Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate more of it. >>> >>> >>> >>> My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. >>> >>> >>> >>> The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. >>> >>> >>> >>> I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? >>> >>> >>> >>> The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right to love one another. >>> >>> >>> >>> That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or right. >>> >>> >>> >>> That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of us doesn't. >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. >>> >>> >>> >>> Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. >>> >>> >>> >>> I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the cynic-within. >>> >>> >>> >>> Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you all in advance for your contributions. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!SflRvXimGmK7dcTUdg9bSj8JKQo_u6fSvpiaFPLC8SXTt1rIhxUtNkRev3ZczvQQyT-bIw$ >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!SflRvXimGmK7dcTUdg9bSj8JKQo_u6fSvpiaFPLC8SXTt1rIhxUtNkRev3ZczvQa90eKwQ$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200610/42ed3018/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Wed Jun 10 16:19:52 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 19:19:52 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <44B4E809-8513-46CA-8961-CEE44249F01A@cantab.net> References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <5C5AFC9F-6941-4188-B1C7-41B58AB5EFD5@cantab.net> <44B4E809-8513-46CA-8961-CEE44249F01A@cantab.net> Message-ID: Thank you again. I will take all I have heard here today into account, especially while taking in and weighing this latest conversation between....up to this point....one of my most trusted sources, Glenn L and his pal John: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/V8fndiNZimA__;!!Mih3wA!Revzo56W0WDvALfT1C9R4jG8W5LNKOrrNM0q2klyKIzw7N1gV8zvbXmvrQAqPcFYgyZudg$ Hot off the press, it just came out as we were chatting : ) Anthony On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, Martin Packer wrote: > Well, teaching 8th grade English is certainly a tougher job than mine! > > I think all the researchers studying this issue correct for frequency of > interaction. From what I have read (quickly), the problem some people have > with Flyer?s analysis is that he made an ?economic? correction. Researchers > make an assumption that the police will want to interact more with people > who are more likely to be breaking the law, so that they are more likely to > make an arrest, which is what they get rewarded for. (Whether that is an > ethical strategy is another matter, though hardly unimportant.) But it > makes little sense to think that the police will want to interact more with > people they are more likely to kill. There is no obvious payoff in that. > But Flyer made that assumption, and corrected his data accordingly. > > And of course Peg pointed out that Flyer was using police reports as his > source of data, which is also a problem. That?s why the Washington Post > collects data from other sources. > > Martin > > > > > On Jun 10, 2020, at 5:31 PM, Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Fair enough. It was a huge deal in 2016, the big NYT included (thus > "groundbreaking"), and as far as I can tell, Fryer remains the gold > standard in this narrow field of research. Obviously, numerous skeptics of > the 'systemically-racist-America' hypothesis have been morivated to embrace > Fryer's conclusions, with others motivated against. > > I can certainly be wrong, as I am outside my realm of expertise. To use > Andy's term, my trust network (decidedly NOT right wing on this particular > issue) has influenced my thinking in terms of the finer grained areas > outside my own skillset. Maybe I'm wrong, who knows, or maybe this > counterintuitive information has some merit. At least it's on the table, > where it should be. > > Thank you, Martin. If I have the chance to read even more of Fryer's > critics, as well as his forthcoming work, I will. Also, what are some of > the follow up questions you might ask, re: your post from earlier today? > For example, I think frequency of interactions (from what I hear, > correlating more with economic status than to race) is a big variable. > > Thanks again, > Anthony > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, Martin Packer wrote: > >> Hey, Anthony, it was you who brought up Flyer?s work in the first place. >> There is, I think, no need to shift to an ad hominin argument. I too would >> like to know if you still consider Flyer?s analysis to be ?groundbreaking.? >> It was published in 2016, and the Washington Post only started collecting >> data in 2015. What you wrote, in fact, was that Flyer's work was >> "groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings >> on the matter).? What do you say about the critiques of that work, and the >> more recent findings? >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jun 10, 2020, at 3:45 PM, Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >> Yes, Greg. >> >> I read all it all in depth 4 years ago (i.e., 4 years before this topic >> broached your radar). >> >> Maybe one day we'll chat when I have faith it will be in good faith. >> >> No offense, but it's just how your body of work comes across to me. >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, Greg Thompson >> wrote: >> >>> Anthony, >>> Have you had a chance to dig into the Fryer data to see whether the >>> assumptions that he makes in controlling for variables are reasonable? And >>> whether he is justified in coming up with such a very different conclusion >>> from the Washington Post research that Martin cited (as well as most >>> other research that I've seen)? >>> In your original post, you characterized Fryer's study as >>> "groundbreaking" so I assume that you had your reasons for giving it such a >>> positive evaluation and felt it was sound in its reasoning and perhaps had >>> some kinds of insights that all the other researchers didn't. I'm >>> interested to hear what you've turned up. >>> Very best, >>> greg >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 1:31 PM Martin Packer >>> wrote: >>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic__;!!Mih3wA!Revzo56W0WDvALfT1C9R4jG8W5LNKOrrNM0q2klyKIzw7N1gV8zvbXmvrQAqPcHrs9_zEA$ >>>> e-shootings-database/ >>>> >>>> >>>> In 2015, The Washington Post began to log every fatal shooting >>>> by >>>> an on-duty police officer in the United States. In that time there have >>>> been more than 5,000 such shootings >>>> recorded >>>> by The Post?. >>>> >>>> Although half of the people shot and killed by police are white, black >>>> Americans are shot at a disproportionate rate >>>> . >>>> They account for less than 13 percent of the U.S. population, but are >>>> killed by police at more than twice the rate of white Americans. Hispanic >>>> Americans are also killed by police at a disproportionate rate. >>>> >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jun 7, 2020, at 12:42 PM, Anthony Barra >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Michael, >>>> >>>> Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 multivariate analysis, >>>> groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on >>>> the matter): https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprisin__;!!Mih3wA!Revzo56W0WDvALfT1C9R4jG8W5LNKOrrNM0q2klyKIzw7N1gV8zvbXmvrQAqPcGshgo7RQ$ >>>> g-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in- >>>> shootings.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in graduate economics, >>>> though I could be mistaken there. >>>> >>>> I respect this community and in no way seek to bring dis- or >>>> misinformation into it, especially on topics that may require numerous key >>>> strokes just to get one's footing. >>>> >>>> Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's not argue. >>>> >>>> Anthony >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael wrote: >>>> >>>>> Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. >>>>> What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from >>>>> very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have >>>>> strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few >>>>> key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well >>>>> founded social science. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions >>>>> was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to >>>>> proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The >>>>> list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is >>>>> possible in this day and age. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with >>>>> anybody. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Michael >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> du> *On Behalf Of *Bill Kerr >>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM >>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> hi Anthony, >>>>> >>>>> I watched both videos. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on >>>>> a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they >>>>> murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the >>>>> police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not >>>>> disproportionate murder of black people. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American >>>>> race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and >>>>> MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black >>>>> disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is >>>>> the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose >>>>> in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school >>>>> experience. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is >>>>> one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose >>>>> from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they >>>>> were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which >>>>> led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency >>>>> which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This >>>>> history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, >>>>> but is still not widely understood. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thank you >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy >>>>> restlessness, and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone >>>>> here can relate to! What a year so far. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone >>>>> potentially curious: >>>>> >>>>> First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!Revzo56W0WDvALfT1C9R4jG8W5LNKOrrNM0q2klyKIzw7N1gV8zvbXmvrQAqPcFjKR46dg$ >>>>> featuring >>>>> Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link >>>>> that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle >>>>> commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!Revzo56W0WDvALfT1C9R4jG8W5LNKOrrNM0q2klyKIzw7N1gV8zvbXmvrQAqPcGrm1VkXQ$ >>>>> >>>>> (as least as far as I've yet encountered). Coleman shares his >>>>> perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in >>>>> these videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut >>>>> against the headwinds a fair amount. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thank you, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Anthony >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> To the wonderful garden of Us and Them, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the >>>>> riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, >>>>> including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them >>>>> here and in the streets for a little while still. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the >>>>> color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for >>>>> him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle >>>>> small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, >>>>> shouldn't it? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, >>>>> we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter >>>>> violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky >>>>> chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with >>>>> flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in >>>>> unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> NO Vi-Oh-LENCE! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might >>>>> appreciate. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of >>>>> desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is >>>>> just one. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if >>>>> there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by >>>>> peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and >>>>> the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can >>>>> rationalize their dear riot gear. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and >>>>> clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is >>>>> referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." >>>>> They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who >>>>> architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like >>>>> watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a >>>>> beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the >>>>> antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I >>>>> wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be >>>>> solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember >>>>> coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in >>>>> 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed >>>>> looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. >>>>> Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few >>>>> nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This >>>>> morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows >>>>> boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think >>>>> these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the >>>>> night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that >>>>> street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought >>>>> maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in >>>>> there? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray >>>>> paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in >>>>> a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are >>>>> protesting? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African >>>>> American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the >>>>> world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah, >>>>> well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those >>>>> people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do." >>>>> I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe >>>>> it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it >>>>> will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an >>>>> interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the >>>>> entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow >>>>> built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with >>>>> this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from >>>>> another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to >>>>> heavy. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate >>>>> more of it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely >>>>> far more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could >>>>> ever fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many >>>>> ways the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being >>>>> institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental >>>>> exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about >>>>> how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like >>>>> now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled >>>>> even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human >>>>> rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right >>>>> to love one another. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of >>>>> us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or >>>>> right. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of >>>>> us doesn't. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to >>>>> vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright >>>>> where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only >>>>> until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect >>>>> tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive >>>>> change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the >>>>> cynic-within. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a >>>>> way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thank you all in advance for your contributions. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!Revzo56W0WDvALfT1C9R4jG8W5LNKOrrNM0q2klyKIzw7N1gV8zvbXmvrQAqPcEGizWvLQ$ >>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!Revzo56W0WDvALfT1C9R4jG8W5LNKOrrNM0q2klyKIzw7N1gV8zvbXmvrQAqPcH13Sy9PA$ >>> >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200610/f09e88d8/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Jun 10 18:09:18 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:09:18 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Eighth Grade Reading and Paradise Lost Message-ID: Anthony-- I have a compromise for you. You are finding it hard to quit the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, and you are, will-he nil-he, doing exactly what you once condemned Ulvi for doing (posting links instead of thoughts). Here's what I propose. The other day I was teaching READING. No, they weren't eighth graders--they were Korean undergraduates, and I was teaching Milton's Paradise Lost. Needless to say, the kids were finding it tough going. I think I know why. If you take eighth graders WRITING poetry, a sentence usually maps onto a single prosodic line. For want of data (you really could help out here, you know), I give you: Roses are red. Violets are blue. Sugar is sweet. . .... Each line is a sentence, a simple major clause: subject, verb, object. Milton doesn't do that: his first sentence ("Of man's disobedience...") is sixteen lines long. So he completely decouples the line from the clause. Or does he? Milton loves acrostics (which is even more amazing when you realize he's stone blind when he's writing this stuff)--according to Melanie Phaal (not, I am almost sure, her real name), you find stuff like this: ;;;who rather double honour gain >From his surmise proved false; find peace within, Favour from Heaven, our witness, from the event. And what is faith, love, virtue, unassayed Alone, without exteriour help sustained? Let us not then suspect our happy state Left so imperfect by the Maker wise, As not secure to single or combined. Frail is our happiness, if this be so, Get it? You don't read it horizontally. You read it vertically, like a Korean pub sign: FFAALL (and "FALL" if you read it from the bottom up. Double honor gained indeed.... That got me thinking. Alot of Paradise Lost becomes easier when you realie that it's syntax is vertical, like a Korean or a Chinese crossword. Milton puts the subject in one line, the verb in the next, and the object in the last. No light, but rather darkness visible Served only to discover sights of woe Regions of sorrow, doleful shades... The problem is that when I teach this technique, I find that the kids ignore it. A few years ago, there was a serious attempt to teach reading as AUTONOMY--people like R.R. Day and Julian Bamford (influenced by Stephen Krashen) wanted most reading to take place outside class, "extensively". But this never really caught on, partly because we don't really know what techniques to teach (besides "skimming and scanning", i.e. reading minus comprehension). As usual, though, we tend to blame our own ignorance on the kids (as I did in the first sentence of this paragraph). David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XivomlsMRmzsPNhtZ107JW5GufxDQl52tecyALUtAf6cPg3yuDGwm0SsEv91-tvMsEeyJQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XivomlsMRmzsPNhtZ107JW5GufxDQl52tecyALUtAf6cPg3yuDGwm0SsEv91-tuGXBvkMg$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200611/11c4fd88/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Wed Jun 10 18:24:21 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 20:24:21 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Eighth Grade Reading and Paradise Lost In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40634C76-5A4B-498B-B752-116F553DAFE6@cantab.net> So what is your proposal, David? I tried reading your message vertically, then backwards, and still found myself lost. Martin > On Jun 10, 2020, at 8:09 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > Anthony-- > > I have a compromise for you. You are finding it hard to quit the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, and you are, will-he nil-he, doing exactly what you once condemned Ulvi for doing (posting links instead of thoughts). > > Here's what I propose. The other day I was teaching READING. No, they weren't eighth graders--they were Korean undergraduates, and I was teaching Milton's Paradise Lost. Needless to say, the kids were finding it tough going. > > I think I know why. If you take eighth graders WRITING poetry, a sentence usually maps onto a single prosodic line. For want of data (you really could help out here, you know), I give you: > > Roses are red. > Violets are blue. > Sugar is sweet. > . .... > > Each line is a sentence, a simple major clause: subject, verb, object. Milton doesn't do that: his first sentence ("Of man's disobedience...") is sixteen lines long. So he completely decouples the line from the clause. > > Or does he? Milton loves acrostics (which is even more amazing when you realize he's stone blind when he's writing this stuff)--according to Melanie Phaal (not, I am almost sure, her real name), you find stuff like this: > > ;;;who rather double honour gain > From his surmise proved false; find peace within, > Favour from Heaven, our witness, from the event. > And what is faith, love, virtue, unassayed > Alone, without exteriour help sustained? > Let us not then suspect our happy state > Left so imperfect by the Maker wise, > As not secure to single or combined. > Frail is our happiness, if this be so, > > Get it? You don't read it horizontally. You read it vertically, like a Korean pub sign: FFAALL (and "FALL" if you read it from the bottom up. Double honor gained indeed.... > > That got me thinking. Alot of Paradise Lost becomes easier when you realie that it's syntax is vertical, like a Korean or a Chinese crossword. Milton puts the subject in one line, the verb in the next, and the object in the last. > > No light, but rather darkness visible > Served only to discover sights of woe > Regions of sorrow, doleful shades... > > The problem is that when I teach this technique, I find that the kids ignore it. A few years ago, there was a serious attempt to teach reading as AUTONOMY--people like R.R. Day and Julian Bamford (influenced by Stephen Krashen) wanted most reading to take place outside class, "extensively". But this never really caught on, partly because we don't really know what techniques to teach (besides "skimming and scanning", i.e. reading minus comprehension). As usual, though, we tend to blame our own ignorance on the kids (as I did in the first sentence of this paragraph). > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SN4OoAUCGhSoJ1FuJq7SOWjk3M_GKX-ZRc8yJPNyrHxOTD28UICGfQg2zJ3gAh4gYOboVw$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SN4OoAUCGhSoJ1FuJq7SOWjk3M_GKX-ZRc8yJPNyrHxOTD28UICGfQg2zJ3gAh5aMpQPLg$ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200610/3215c609/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Wed Jun 10 19:01:37 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 22:01:37 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Eighth Grade Reading and Paradise Lost In-Reply-To: <40634C76-5A4B-498B-B752-116F553DAFE6@cantab.net> References: <40634C76-5A4B-498B-B752-116F553DAFE6@cantab.net> Message-ID: Same! But it was a Welcome Change of Pace. I'll say this: helping kids see enjambment, as a tool poets use and one they too can use, makes as big a difference as anything else I show them. And with older kids, looking at interrupted clauses in sonnets is the biggest bang for their buck. Cool tip David, thanks On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, Martin Packer wrote: > So what is your proposal, David? I tried reading your message vertically, > then backwards, and still found myself lost. > > Martin > > > On Jun 10, 2020, at 8:09 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > Anthony-- > > I have a compromise for you. You are finding it hard to quit the "My > Hometown Minneapolis" thread, and you are, will-he nil-he, doing exactly > what you once condemned Ulvi for doing (posting links instead of thoughts). > > Here's what I propose. The other day I was teaching READING. No, they > weren't eighth graders--they were Korean undergraduates, and I was teaching > Milton's Paradise Lost. Needless to say, the kids were finding it tough > going. > > I think I know why. If you take eighth graders WRITING poetry, a sentence > usually maps onto a single prosodic line. For want of data (you really > could help out here, you know), I give you: > > Roses are red. > Violets are blue. > Sugar is sweet. > . .... > > Each line is a sentence, a simple major clause: subject, verb, object. > Milton doesn't do that: his first sentence ("Of man's disobedience...") is > sixteen lines long. So he completely decouples the line from the clause. > > Or does he? Milton loves acrostics (which is even more amazing when you > realize he's stone blind when he's writing this stuff)--according to > Melanie Phaal (not, I am almost sure, her real name), you find stuff like > this: > > ;;;who rather double honour gain > From his surmise proved false; find peace within, > Favour from Heaven, our witness, from the event. > And what is faith, love, virtue, unassayed > Alone, without exteriour help sustained? > Let us not then suspect our happy state > Left so imperfect by the Maker wise, > As not secure to single or combined. > Frail is our happiness, if this be so, > > Get it? You don't read it horizontally. You read it vertically, like a > Korean pub sign: FFAALL (and "FALL" if you read it from the bottom up. > Double honor gained indeed.... > > That got me thinking. Alot of Paradise Lost becomes easier when you realie > that it's syntax is vertical, like a Korean or a Chinese crossword. Milton > puts the subject in one line, the verb in the next, and the object in the > last. > > No light, but rather darkness visible > Served only to discover sights of woe > Regions of sorrow, doleful shades... > > The problem is that when I teach this technique, I find that the kids > ignore it. A few years ago, there was a serious attempt to teach reading as > AUTONOMY--people like R.R. Day and Julian Bamford (influenced by Stephen > Krashen) wanted most reading to take place outside class, "extensively". > But this never really caught on, partly because we don't really know what > techniques to teach (besides "skimming and scanning", i.e. reading minus > comprehension). As usual, though, we tend to blame our own ignorance on the > kids (as I did in the first sentence of this paragraph). > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QCdXK65ueFPJ51giwmeqcZR8xdxj9bN-wA9Mo0XCOf6R92tDTb7ZfLg4aqXDakWbHBVdKA$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QCdXK65ueFPJ51giwmeqcZR8xdxj9bN-wA9Mo0XCOf6R92tDTb7ZfLg4aqXDakVMVzYqPg$ > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200610/f3799941/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Jun 10 19:42:06 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 11:42:06 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Eighth Grade Reading and Paradise Lost In-Reply-To: References: <40634C76-5A4B-498B-B752-116F553DAFE6@cantab.net> Message-ID: My proposal, Anthony and Martin, is precisely a change of pace. I'm not sucker-punching: I'm changing the focus of attention entirely. I did try listening to McWhorter (I don't know the other guy--never heard of him). But I think there are two kinds of public intellectuals: people who go public BECAUSE they are intellectuals (Michael Osterholm is one of these--he's a public health guy, and it's basically part of his job description), and people who are famous for playing intellectuals in public. McWhorter whines because he expressed himself in ways carefully designed to garner publicity and now pouts about the quality of the publicity garnered. (Why am I not astonished that he knows a white guy who got killed by cops who got off? Why am I unimpressed that when you take away all the factors in which race is involved and look at tiny sample sizes, you no longer see any racial bias?). It reminded me a little of teachers like me who pout when learners are less than astonished by my astonishing insights. It makes me suspect that my insight is less than astonishing, and I would like to try it out on a real reading teacher, namely Anthony. Here's the less-than-astonishing insight. We teach WRITING with the goal of autonomy. We even teach SPEAKING with the idea of self-sufficiency firmly in the back of our heads. As the vulgar interpretation of Vygotsky puts it, the external mediator becomes restructured as an internal mediator (as Vygotsky, who was a public intellectual too, put it rather better, what the child can do with assistance today the child will be able to do tomorrow without assistance). I find this a little beside the point, because language isn't really designed to be internal--that's why Vygotsky makes a distinction between inner speech and thinking. But why don't we have a similar approach to READING? That is, why don't we judge the success of our reading instruction in the same way that we judge the success of our writing instruction: that is, by the hours the kids spend reading outside class and by the quality of autonomous reading experiences? Why is reading only judged by in-class comprehension? Anthony: Milton's caesurae are just ONE example of a much larger developmental phenomenon: Milton's decoupling of the sentence and the line (the unmapping of prosody from grammar). The rhetorical purpose of a caesura is to make the prosodic line unstoppable. My purpose is a little different--it's to make the grammatical sentence comprehensible. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WGrAuXYRvesbVdMAvIS-626lAO6ewLFAXcNAvBNOi-tSXBRDcWiQBg2mb596TBR-leG6Yw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WGrAuXYRvesbVdMAvIS-626lAO6ewLFAXcNAvBNOi-tSXBRDcWiQBg2mb596TBS9Usb6Zw$ On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 11:03 AM Anthony Barra wrote: > Same! But it was a Welcome Change of Pace. > > I'll say this: helping kids see enjambment, as a tool poets use and one > they too can use, makes as big a difference as anything else I show them. > And with older kids, looking at interrupted clauses in sonnets is the > biggest bang for their buck. > > Cool tip David, thanks > > > On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, Martin Packer wrote: > >> So what is your proposal, David? I tried reading your message vertically, >> then backwards, and still found myself lost. >> >> Martin >> >> >> On Jun 10, 2020, at 8:09 PM, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> Anthony-- >> >> I have a compromise for you. You are finding it hard to quit the "My >> Hometown Minneapolis" thread, and you are, will-he nil-he, doing exactly >> what you once condemned Ulvi for doing (posting links instead of thoughts). >> >> Here's what I propose. The other day I was teaching READING. No, they >> weren't eighth graders--they were Korean undergraduates, and I was teaching >> Milton's Paradise Lost. Needless to say, the kids were finding it tough >> going. >> >> I think I know why. If you take eighth graders WRITING poetry, a sentence >> usually maps onto a single prosodic line. For want of data (you really >> could help out here, you know), I give you: >> >> Roses are red. >> Violets are blue. >> Sugar is sweet. >> . .... >> >> Each line is a sentence, a simple major clause: subject, verb, object. >> Milton doesn't do that: his first sentence ("Of man's disobedience...") is >> sixteen lines long. So he completely decouples the line from the clause. >> >> Or does he? Milton loves acrostics (which is even more amazing when you >> realize he's stone blind when he's writing this stuff)--according to >> Melanie Phaal (not, I am almost sure, her real name), you find stuff like >> this: >> >> ;;;who rather double honour gain >> From his surmise proved false; find peace within, >> Favour from Heaven, our witness, from the event. >> And what is faith, love, virtue, unassayed >> Alone, without exteriour help sustained? >> Let us not then suspect our happy state >> Left so imperfect by the Maker wise, >> As not secure to single or combined. >> Frail is our happiness, if this be so, >> >> Get it? You don't read it horizontally. You read it vertically, like a >> Korean pub sign: FFAALL (and "FALL" if you read it from the bottom up. >> Double honor gained indeed.... >> >> That got me thinking. Alot of Paradise Lost becomes easier when you >> realie that it's syntax is vertical, like a Korean or a Chinese >> crossword. Milton puts the subject in one line, the verb in the next, and >> the object in the last. >> >> No light, but rather darkness visible >> Served only to discover sights of woe >> Regions of sorrow, doleful shades... >> >> The problem is that when I teach this technique, I find that the kids >> ignore it. A few years ago, there was a serious attempt to teach reading as >> AUTONOMY--people like R.R. Day and Julian Bamford (influenced by Stephen >> Krashen) wanted most reading to take place outside class, "extensively". >> But this never really caught on, partly because we don't really know what >> techniques to teach (besides "skimming and scanning", i.e. reading minus >> comprehension). As usual, though, we tend to blame our own ignorance on the >> kids (as I did in the first sentence of this paragraph). >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WGrAuXYRvesbVdMAvIS-626lAO6ewLFAXcNAvBNOi-tSXBRDcWiQBg2mb596TBR-leG6Yw$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WGrAuXYRvesbVdMAvIS-626lAO6ewLFAXcNAvBNOi-tSXBRDcWiQBg2mb596TBS9Usb6Zw$ >> >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200611/54a8b0a6/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jun 11 17:43:35 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 00:43:35 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Rumblings of the F-word Message-ID: Hello, Just found this article on NYT about the development of recent discourse over the word "fascism," see: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/10/books/fascism-debate-donald-trump.html__;!!Mih3wA!QEaovj_Y1l2RygQkKM2iFC9PMkkIl9JleFqlPMWrvbSN64XBjThhZdqZeYrkfLS5jzDxsw$ In the article: ?The word ?fascist? has acquired a feeling of the extreme, like crying wolf,? Stanley writes ? not because Americans are so unfamiliar with fascist tactics but because we are becoming inured to them. ?Normalization of fascist ideology, by definition, would make charges of ?fascism? seem like an overreaction.? Our senses have been dulled by exposure. The United States has had a long history of pro- or proto-fascist sentiment, including the terrorism of the Ku Klux Klan, the America First movement of the interwar years and the Jim Crow laws that Adolf Hitler cited as an inspiration. ?Fascism is not a new threat,? Stanley writes, ?but rather a permanent temptation.? I recall using this word a few years ago and someone being surprised that I used the word. If we decontextualize the separation of immigrant children from their parents seeking political asylum from our everyday newspaper experience and compare that to concentration camps, at the time it seemed like we were overreaching in our descriptions, but do you remember when this happened? Not enough of us were objecting to this hard enough. We still do not know what has happened to those children, nor what will become of them as adults. Now that we are bored in pandmic lockdown, it does seem strange looking back at that time. Even looking back at the impeachment trial seems quaint in it's softball pitches. I'm not sure this pandemic is at all good for us. But what can be done? Anyway, with regards to the appropriate use of the term... There are different colors of fascism, isn't there? Just like any other ideology. Why is there so much resistance to using the word?? I'm thinking again out loud... there is the word and the meaning and then the word-meaning. This is the article by Gerald Early on Sinclair Lewis's "It Can't Happen Here." mentioned in the NYT article. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://commonreader.wustl.edu/c/touchstone-texts-it-cant-happen-here/__;!!Mih3wA!QEaovj_Y1l2RygQkKM2iFC9PMkkIl9JleFqlPMWrvbSN64XBjThhZdqZeYrkfLR0sCrxhg$ (With grammaresque concern, I am also relieved that I have confirmation of the apostrophe-s after a name that ends in the letter "s", but what about when the "s" is silent as in "Descartes's Error"?) Anyway, here's to finding the right word for the right meaning. Kind regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200612/10f925eb/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jun 11 18:17:06 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 01:17:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Is this an example of corporate goodness?? Message-ID: Hello Xmcars, This article has me pausing. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/11/microsoft-facial-recognition-police-313611__;!!Mih3wA!XWir6Vg6tZMOi_K32VA-5bdRVSBygkLuButlX-UybtAU5FeAYAHlkyAriuuWuYLicj-Hvw$ Given our recent discussion about technology, this here might be an example where culture pushes back on the inevitability of technology. Facial recog has always troubled me. It's out of Pandora's box, but if IBM, Microsoft, or Amazon don't sell their technology to US Police departments, won't someone else do it? Not sure what to make of this, but I wanted to post, if only to help make people aware of coming technology advances and to consider all those kinds of questions, we would likely rather not have to consider! Kind regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200612/a753966f/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Jun 11 20:53:30 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 20:53:30 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rumblings of the F-word In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for posting the essay on facism, Analissa. I was sitting down to forward it to xmca when I encountered your post. I have been using that word to apply to what Trump and his allies have been doing since before he was elected. That is why I keep pointing to the ways in which the US is re-playing the 1930's when people who identified themselves with facism came too close to gaining control. America firsters were a nazi and a democratic socialist. The first fascist, the second anti war. Events of the recent past have made a lot of people look back 80 years. Not just us octogenarians. It took a catastrophic war to extricate the world from the last attack of that disease. This time? mike On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 5:45 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello, > > Just found this article on NYT about the development of recent discourse > over the word "fascism," see: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/10/books/fascism-debate-donald-trump.html__;!!Mih3wA!R1CrNGKgOJ8kxEyIRAJHxzylWMWLWYYpkTX9yrBnW_71xn9_2g936y1XHTSc7L3Dt_6ITg$ > > > In the article: > > ?The word ?fascist? has acquired a feeling of the extreme, like crying > wolf,? Stanley writes ? not because Americans are so unfamiliar with > fascist tactics but because we are becoming inured to them. ?Normalization > of fascist ideology, by definition, would make charges of ?fascism? seem > like an overreaction.? Our senses have been dulled by exposure. The United > States has had a long history of pro- or proto-fascist sentiment, including > the terrorism of the Ku Klux Klan, the America First movement of the > interwar years and the Jim Crow laws that Adolf Hitler cited as an > inspiration. ?Fascism is not a new threat,? Stanley writes, ?but rather a > permanent temptation.? > > > I recall using this word a few years ago and someone being surprised that > I used the word. > > If we decontextualize the separation of immigrant children from their > parents seeking political asylum from our everyday newspaper experience and > compare that to concentration camps, at the time it seemed like we were > overreaching in our descriptions, but do you remember when this happened? > Not enough of us were objecting to this hard enough. We still do not know > what has happened to those children, nor what will become of them as > adults. > > Now that we are bored in pandmic lockdown, it does seem strange looking > back at that time. Even looking back at the impeachment trial seems quaint > in it's softball pitches. > > I'm not sure this pandemic is at all good for us. But what can be done? > > Anyway, with regards to the appropriate use of the term... > > There are different colors of fascism, isn't there? Just like any other > ideology. Why is there so much resistance to using the word?? > > I'm thinking again out loud... there is the word and the meaning and then > the word-meaning. > > This is the article by Gerald Early on Sinclair Lewis's "It Can't Happen > Here." mentioned in the NYT article. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://commonreader.wustl.edu/c/touchstone-texts-it-cant-happen-here/__;!!Mih3wA!R1CrNGKgOJ8kxEyIRAJHxzylWMWLWYYpkTX9yrBnW_71xn9_2g936y1XHTSc7L0vaItBNg$ > > > > (With grammaresque concern, I am also relieved that I have confirmation of > the apostrophe-s after a name that ends in the letter "s", but what about > when the "s" is silent as in "Descartes's Error"?) > > Anyway, here's to finding the right word for the right meaning. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!R1CrNGKgOJ8kxEyIRAJHxzylWMWLWYYpkTX9yrBnW_71xn9_2g936y1XHTSc7L1utwdjjQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200611/550fa3ee/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jun 11 23:31:24 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 06:31:24 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rumblings of the F-word In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Mike, In Italy the facists were considered modern and futuristic. The aesthetic was important. There was art intertwined with the ideology which perhaps is something that inspired the Nazis sense of uniform fashion. I recall reading that Mussolini was outdone by Hitler, the first fascist outdone by the second. It reminds me of our stable genius's admiration for other strong men. I wonder what is going on there. I am hopeful that enough young people (having the ability to google words and their meanings and even their histories), have enough of a peace arsenal to resist being suckered into a war. Also so many are educated, even if they are poor. I've heard if not for WW2 we may have had a revolution in the 1930s, and some people say Roosevelt in concern for these tinderboxes of revolution wanted to get us into the war as soon as possible and utilize that unrest. I'm not certain of the verity of that story, but it seems plausible. I respect your concern, but I feel young people just want to have a peaceful life. They know that they are not able to live the life or their parents or their grandparents. I don't think they aspire to civil war or any war. Indeed the demonstrations for BLM's peaceful protests shows what we are made of on so many levels. This article from the Atlantic speaks to Millenial mental health as a group. I do worry for them. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/06/why-suicide-rates-among-millennials-are-rising/612943/__;!!Mih3wA!UrK6KPVRClQIMvKFjArGrYm3iZZxnKWgCq02m-7IkEhP2_0H12u0AEOwykT79V1NOLOFxw$ I understand why it's so easy to internalize the environment, but we have to remain hopeful. I can't predict the future, but the buffoonery these days is so cartoonish these days, and that may be why the press conferences have gone quiet. If only to cut losses in the polls by remaining quiet. Who would have thought that a little virus would be the undoing of this administration, but it seems that's exactly what we are looking at. I read somewhere else that it's projected the number of mendacities are now almost 20,000 since 2016. How is that even possible? 4 x 365 = 1460 ; 20,000 / 1460 = about 13 lies a day since that unsavory November. Imagine that. A life built on that cannot feel very good on the inside, I'd gather. It's a bonfire about to collapse in on itself. Kind regards, Annalisa --->(2 n's and 1 s; one word united) ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2020 9:53 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rumblings of the F-word [EXTERNAL] Thanks for posting the essay on facism, Analissa. I was sitting down to forward it to xmca when I encountered your post. I have been using that word to apply to what Trump and his allies have been doing since before he was elected. That is why I keep pointing to the ways in which the US is re-playing the 1930's when people who identified themselves with facism came too close to gaining control. America firsters were a nazi and a democratic socialist. The first fascist, the second anti war. Events of the recent past have made a lot of people look back 80 years. Not just us octogenarians. It took a catastrophic war to extricate the world from the last attack of that disease. This time? mike On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 5:45 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello, Just found this article on NYT about the development of recent discourse over the word "fascism," see: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/10/books/fascism-debate-donald-trump.html__;!!Mih3wA!UrK6KPVRClQIMvKFjArGrYm3iZZxnKWgCq02m-7IkEhP2_0H12u0AEOwykT79V3EO57vhQ$ In the article: ?The word ?fascist? has acquired a feeling of the extreme, like crying wolf,? Stanley writes ? not because Americans are so unfamiliar with fascist tactics but because we are becoming inured to them. ?Normalization of fascist ideology, by definition, would make charges of ?fascism? seem like an overreaction.? Our senses have been dulled by exposure. The United States has had a long history of pro- or proto-fascist sentiment, including the terrorism of the Ku Klux Klan, the America First movement of the interwar years and the Jim Crow laws that Adolf Hitler cited as an inspiration. ?Fascism is not a new threat,? Stanley writes, ?but rather a permanent temptation.? I recall using this word a few years ago and someone being surprised that I used the word. If we decontextualize the separation of immigrant children from their parents seeking political asylum from our everyday newspaper experience and compare that to concentration camps, at the time it seemed like we were overreaching in our descriptions, but do you remember when this happened? Not enough of us were objecting to this hard enough. We still do not know what has happened to those children, nor what will become of them as adults. Now that we are bored in pandmic lockdown, it does seem strange looking back at that time. Even looking back at the impeachment trial seems quaint in it's softball pitches. I'm not sure this pandemic is at all good for us. But what can be done? Anyway, with regards to the appropriate use of the term... There are different colors of fascism, isn't there? Just like any other ideology. Why is there so much resistance to using the word?? I'm thinking again out loud... there is the word and the meaning and then the word-meaning. This is the article by Gerald Early on Sinclair Lewis's "It Can't Happen Here." mentioned in the NYT article. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://commonreader.wustl.edu/c/touchstone-texts-it-cant-happen-here/__;!!Mih3wA!UrK6KPVRClQIMvKFjArGrYm3iZZxnKWgCq02m-7IkEhP2_0H12u0AEOwykT79V2qe0YVtw$ (With grammaresque concern, I am also relieved that I have confirmation of the apostrophe-s after a name that ends in the letter "s", but what about when the "s" is silent as in "Descartes's Error"?) Anyway, here's to finding the right word for the right meaning. Kind regards, Annalisa -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UrK6KPVRClQIMvKFjArGrYm3iZZxnKWgCq02m-7IkEhP2_0H12u0AEOwykT79V0QexAVjw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200612/5cb13a73/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Fri Jun 12 07:15:04 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:15:04 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <008401d63a1c$e99a57f0$bccf07d0$@att.net> <1E6B8EE6-16CD-41F9-8920-D0F21652D927@gmail.com> <4D5E6E89-E5CC-45CC-9557-CFE8C7C5F68D@gmail.com> <90E5A56D-A078-4445-8AC8-A9953FE0B2B2@umn.edu> <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <5C5AFC9F-6941-4188-B1C7-41B58AB5EFD5@cantab.net> <44B4E809-8513-46CA-8961-CEE44249F01A@cantab.net> Message-ID: <7C34EA21-3DBE-44AB-B2E4-93F78B758433@cantab.net> r Sign up for a reading by top scholars who study anti-black racism: June 17, 7?9 p.m. EDT Anti-Blackness: Readings on Violence, Resistance, and Repair Featuring Laurence Ralph (The Torture Letters ), Savannah Shange (Progressive Dystopia ), Christen A. Smith (Afro-Paradise ), and Deborah A. Thomas (Political Life in the Wake of the Plantation ), and a conversation with the authors on how their work speaks to our current moment. Moderated by Danilyn Rutherford, Eshe Lewis, and Chip Colwell. Register Now -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200612/6e262551/attachment.html From Peg.Griffin@att.net Fri Jun 12 09:17:44 2020 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 12:17:44 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <000401d63c0f$61857300$24905900$@att.net> <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <000401d63da3$4a3047d0$de90d770$@att.net> <0D51973B-8E27-49A8-83AE-A5BF3E79E133@cantab.net> <30f8a2a9-1a10-960f-fdc7-6b50d3487ba7@marxists.org> <000201d63e70$9346ac70$b9 d40550$@att.net> Message-ID: <000001d640d5$03300a20$09901e60$@att.net> Yes to your guess. But instead of basic DNA, I think GPE genetically primary example ? FOLLOWING Davidov, Elkonin. We use epigenetic byway in the following article: ?Creating and Reconstituting Contexts for Educational Interactions, Including a Computer Program? by Peg Griffin, Alexandra Belyaeva, Galina Soldatova, and the Velikhov-Hamburg Collective. It?s in ?Contexts for Contexts for Learning: Sociocultural Dynamics in Children?s Development.? Ellice A. Foreman, Norris Minnick, C. Addison Stone (Eds.) (pp. 120-152). New York: Oxford University Press. It?s pretty far in ? you have to wade through a lot of frogs to get to it -- but I think the example is a clear one about epigenetic byways Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Tom Richardson Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 1:01 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis Hello Peg Griffin Thank you for this thought-provoking mail. I'm guessing that the "epigenetic byway" is continuing the current spontaneous movement and future organisation around racism, which will not tackle the basic DNA of the pervading culture and institutions of white supremacy? (Sorry, I hadn't come across 'epigenetics' before) Regards Tom Richardson Middlesbrough UK On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 16:15, Peg Griffin, PhD. > wrote: Yes everyone suffers, but it is about white supremacy rather than racism. Other people in other places have other things, maybe other race supremacies to rise against. Whether it?s race or not, it?s people with the knees on the necks that must lead and be followed. Who follows, here, is whoever isn?t a white supremacist. It is painful and time taking to apprehend what white privilege means in action. It is difficult to persevere in the denial of white privilege in one?s own life. It?s a careful distinction ? between white supremacy and racism. Here and now the reduction to racism deflects us to an ?epigenetic byway,? provides room to protect dangerous institutions and practices, to produce misshapen changes. White supremacists make references to, praise, make symbols of, people who are not white whose jobs or statements or health; it is supposed to be prima facie evidence that they aren?t racist. More long term and subtly, it divides us, hides them, and maligns and degrades us. The ties that bind white supremacy and fascism are blatant, as Mike?s references to the late 30?s highlight. PG From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu ] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 11:02 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis No, the American Century is over, I believe, even if America can take a leading part in ushering in the new epoch, I think it will be to release the rest of the world from the USA's mania to micromanage everyone else. The pandemic was, I think, the catalyst which brought the issues to the surface which were bubbling away for a long time. And might I venture the opinion that the vast investment in this BLM movement by young "white" people is in large part because cops kill a hell of a lot of white kids as well, and everyone is suffering under the system in which African Americans are victimised. Andy _____ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 9/06/2020 12:11 pm, Martin Packer wrote: On Jun 8, 2020, at 8:34 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: Even in the depths of degradation and ignominy America can lead, it seems. This is something worth and worthy of theorizing, isn?t it?! Turns out the World Perezhivanie is not the coronavirus, or at least not the coronavirus alone. It is racism. And the global subject that has just been formed has found its lead in the US. The US Century may not be over after all! Martin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200612/09d536da/attachment-0001.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Jun 12 17:47:43 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 09:47:43 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Emotion as "Sputnik" Message-ID: How could we experimentally test Vygotsky?s theory that emotion plays a key ?sputnik? role in concept formation? It seems as if no laboratory test is really possible and no mass test in schools would be ethical. Alas, the mere fact that something is unthinkable does little to prevent it from happening these days. In the last year, there have been, for example, mass experiments on human subjects in the US, Sweden and the UK which have led to tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths, something we have not really seen on this scale since Nazi experiments and the American ?trial? of the ?Little Boy? bomb design on Hiroshima. Just as Vygotsky made sense of what became Nazi psychology (Spranger, Kretschmer, Kroh, and Potzl), we will have to, whether we accept the ethics of the experiment or not, make sense of the data. Consider three modes of teaching reading to the same class of Korean eighth graders: recorded lectures which are made available on line and supplemented with homework, video-conferencing classes which allow T-S interaction but minimal S-S interaction, and finally face-to-face classes. These three formats do not differ in their conceptual content, but they differ very widely in their emotional content. How do they differ in their educational impact, and how does this educational impact vary with age and with social class? The result should be visible in language. To interpret them, however, we will need not only Vygotsky but also Bernstein and Halliday. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RGZkVXlzeukChniKOY-9EXEs2riIUxU9QR_yemJDCktCr7UgmMuAxOzB5SQsTHOvTjo4aA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RGZkVXlzeukChniKOY-9EXEs2riIUxU9QR_yemJDCktCr7UgmMuAxOzB5SQsTHMYSau_Qg$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200613/635e7d3f/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jun 12 20:31:38 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 03:31:38 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David, Wouldn't it be possible to do this with what we know about mirror neurons? Have student-dyads take turns where one partner is online for one module and the other partner is in class for a different module and then have them teach one another the module that the partner did not attend. Then they would swap between online and in person for different modules. This could be done in weekly lengths where Fridays there is method of measuring their concept formations. This would be structured as a "review" so that no student is left out of learning, if that were to occur, and they could have the gaps filled in of there were any. My hypothesis is that there would be differences in how the students taught one another, based upon whether they experienced a module online or in person. Differences would be detected if similar traits in concept formation were determined from whether a student learned a module in person or online. How a concept is mirrored from one student to the next might be measurable, wouldn't it? I'm not a researcher, and nothing but a novice, but might this be a way of detecting differences between the mode a module was taken in (i.e., online vs in person)? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Friday, June 12, 2020 6:47 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Emotion as "Sputnik" [EXTERNAL] How could we experimentally test Vygotsky?s theory that emotion plays a key ?sputnik? role in concept formation? It seems as if no laboratory test is really possible and no mass test in schools would be ethical. Alas, the mere fact that something is unthinkable does little to prevent it from happening these days. In the last year, there have been, for example, mass experiments on human subjects in the US, Sweden and the UK which have led to tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths, something we have not really seen on this scale since Nazi experiments and the American ?trial? of the ?Little Boy? bomb design on Hiroshima. Just as Vygotsky made sense of what became Nazi psychology (Spranger, Kretschmer, Kroh, and Potzl), we will have to, whether we accept the ethics of the experiment or not, make sense of the data. Consider three modes of teaching reading to the same class of Korean eighth graders: recorded lectures which are made available on line and supplemented with homework, video-conferencing classes which allow T-S interaction but minimal S-S interaction, and finally face-to-face classes. These three formats do not differ in their conceptual content, but they differ very widely in their emotional content. How do they differ in their educational impact, and how does this educational impact vary with age and with social class? The result should be visible in language. To interpret them, however, we will need not only Vygotsky but also Bernstein and Halliday. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!S0bQrlXXcKxBS2qQtqfdMPfWOuJhxZxoFgUjVMhPJyDMVPE0vOOABesaLH4sdRLC5ZNOsg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!S0bQrlXXcKxBS2qQtqfdMPfWOuJhxZxoFgUjVMhPJyDMVPE0vOOABesaLH4sdRLLAm5irg$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200613/aeda537e/attachment.html From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Sat Jun 13 07:57:02 2020 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 14:57:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: rather than a test, David, perhaps a rigorous ethnography along the lines of what Graham Nuthall did - https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://researched.org.uk/graham-nuthall-educational-research-at-its-best/__;!!Mih3wA!U4CMQps4MNhV4Y4qAOMoas5Dla-j0v-MYik_D63mVqMQoDdyz5QY0jZqpGwd6kVv1FWd6Q$ Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best ? researchED Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best 26th February 2019 / in February 2019 / by Jan Tishauser. Professor Emeritus Graham Nuthall, an educational researcher from New Zealand, is credited with one of the longest series of studies of teaching and learning in the classroom that has ever been carried out. A pioneer in his field, his ... researched.org.uk it was highly complex, but clearly from his finding emotions play a key role in concept formation. he died about 16 years ago. and oddly enough his work is still little appreciated. https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz/Pedagogy-and-assessment/Pedagogical-leadership/The-cultural-myths-and-realities-of-teaching-and-learning__;!!Mih3wA!U4CMQps4MNhV4Y4qAOMoas5Dla-j0v-MYik_D63mVqMQoDdyz5QY0jZqpGwd6kVKl43myA$ The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning / Pedagogical leadership / Pedagogy and assessment / Home - Educational Leaders The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning. by Graham Nuthall. Download this complete document (PDF 149 kB) Help with PDF files Overview. Graham Nuthall was Emeritus Professor of Education at the University of Canterbury in Christchurch. https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz__;!!Mih3wA!U4CMQps4MNhV4Y4qAOMoas5Dla-j0v-MYik_D63mVqMQoDdyz5QY0jZqpGwd6kXD3p1_-w$ Nuthall had participated in some of xmca conversation. also, Gerard Edelman's work, which was the focus of an xmca conversation some time ago, points out that initials perceptions are initially sorted into one of two values - in layman's terms, like or dislike. which is of course an emotional response. Bright Air, Brilliant Fire: On the Matter of the Mind (Basic Books, 1992, Reprint edition 1993). ISBN 0-465-00764-3 in short, there are many ways of exploring student emotions i'd consider to be more reliable that trustworthy than tests. phillip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200613/7ffb55b7/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jun 13 11:45:34 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 18:45:34 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Zombie corporations are here Message-ID: Hi Xmcars, As a subscriber to Yanis Varoufakis's website, I saw the article below arrive in my email box today. I'm not a fan of Assange, but I think he is an important figure in our time, and his likely extradition to the US may foretell the future of our freedom of speech and any sort of journalism that speaks truth to power. I hope to direct your attention to his conversations with the former minister of finance for Greece. Varoufakis has a way of explaining economic realities so clearly, and he's been right about many developments. Some years ago I read The Global Minotaur and highly recommend it. (I did not know that Hertz Rentals declared bankruptcy and then turned around and offered shares on the stock market. That is unbelievable.) Julian called me a little earlier on, at 14.22 London time to be precise. From Belmarsh High Security Prison of course. This is not the first time but, as you can imagine, every time I hear his voice I feel honoured and moved that he should dial my number when he has such few and far between opportunities to place calls. ?I want a perspective on world developments out there ? I have none in here?, he said. Which, of course, placed a considerable burden on me to articulate thoughts on capitalism?s fate during this pandemic and the repercussions of it all on politics, geopolitics etc. The knowledge that Her Majesty?s Prison authorities would discontinue our discussion at any moment made the task harder. In a feeble attempt to paint a picture for him on as broad a canvass as possible, I shared with Julian my main thought of the last weeks. Never before has the world of money (i.e. the money markets, that include the share markets) been so decoupled from the world of real people, real stuff ? from the real economy. We watch in awe as GDP, personal incomes, wages, company revenues, businesses small and large, collapse while the stock market is staying relatively unscathed. The other day, Hertz declared bankruptcy. When a company does this, its share price goes to zero. Not now. In fact, Hertz is about to issue $1 billion worth of new shares. Why would anyone buy shares of an officially bankrupt company? The answer is: Because central banks print mountain ranges of money and give it for almost free to financiers to buy any piece of junk floating around the stock exchange. ?Complete zombification of the corporations?, is how I put it to Julian. Julian commented that this proves that governments and central banks can keep corporations afloat even when they sell next to nothing at the marketplace. I agreed. But, I also pointed out a major conundrum that capitalism faces for the first time. It is this: Central bank money printing keeps asset prices very high while the price of ?stuff? and wages fall. This disconnect can go on growing. But, when Hertz, British Airways etc. can survive in this manner, they have no reason not to fire half the workforce and to cut the wages of the other half. This creates more deflation/depression in the real economy. Which means that the Central Banks must print more and more to keep asset and share prices high. At some point, the masses out there will rebel and governments will be under pressure to divert some income to them. But this will deflate asset prices. At that point, because these assets are used by corporations as collateral for all the loans they take out to stay afloat, they will lose access to liquidity. A sequence of corporate failures will commence under circumstances of stagnation. ?I don?t think capitalism can easily survive, at least not without huge social and geopolitical conflicts, this conundrum?, was my conclusion. Julian thought about this for a moment and asked me: ?How important is consumption to capitalism? What percentage of GDP is at stake if consumption does not recover? Do the corporations need workers or customers?? I answered that it was high enough to make this conundrum real. Yes, Central Banks and robots can keep the corporations going without customers or workers. But, robots cannot buy the stuff they produce. So, this is not a stable equilibrium. The losses in people?s incomes will accelerate, thus generating pivotal discontent. Julian then said something along the lines of: That will benefit Trump who knows how to feed off the anger of the multitudes toward the educated, upper middle-class elites. I agreed, saying that DiEM25 has been warning since 2016 that socialism for the oligarchy and austerity for the many, in the end, feeds the racist ultra-right. That we are experiencing again what happened in the 1920s in Italy with the rise of Mussolini. Julian agreed entirely and said: Yes, like then, there is an alliance forming between rich people and the discontented working class. He then added that most of the prisoners and the prison officers in Belmarsh support? Trump. At that point the connection was cut off. Our conversation lasted 9?47??. It was more substantive, and of course moving, than any conversation I have had in a while. --- If anyone would like to learn more about DiEM25 here's a link to their About page. Just beware that they use that F-word... https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://diem25.org/about-2/__;!!Mih3wA!QT1T9qxKRWwurq8QMQ3C3SnUVEJvQfCmUE1lFth8s9SF7NCo-_8jLmre2ZSTmmxDIjPTKA$ Kind regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200613/a0697db2/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Jun 13 14:26:33 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 06:26:33 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Annalisa: It's a great idea. But we are in the throes of "the dance" here in South Korea. Schools reopen. Then there's an outbreak. So the government closes schools again and we all go back into isolation for ten days. Then things reopen again, until the next outbreak. Even when schools are open, class size is greatly reduced, students are kept at least two meters apart and put in masks (we don't have those crazy hats that you see in China, but some schools use cubicles), and that would make it really hard to get peer teaching, much less collect data from peer teaching. We did do something like what you propose way back in 2007--we just looked at the difference between the way a teacher presented the task and the way that the task was represented to groups. Guk, I. and Kellogg, D. (2007). The ZPD and Whole Class Teaching: Teacher-led and Student-led Interactional Mediation in Tasks. Language Teaching Research 11,3 (2007); pp. 281?299 I suspect that if you read this study you will find it methodologically and even intellectually crude, particularly compared to what you propose, but for reasons I don't really understand it's the only thing we ever wrote that gets widely cited!) Phillip: Yes, ethnography would show precisely the kind of development we're interested in. But I think ethnography is better suited to studying stability than to studying crises. I get that crises are like anything else--they need to be highly contextured to be well textured. But because ethnography has a tendency to view the social and cultural and historical dimension exclusively through the language of the interpersonal, it's really hard to get genetic cross-sections that are broad enough and long enough to tell you how the system as a whole changes at "inflection points" (Joe Biden!) that are prepared for systematically precisely by those epochs we are naively thinking of as stable. (Ruqaiya Hasan's work was one of very few exceptions to this constraint....) For example. One of the most important responses to the crisis revealed by George Floyd's murder has been to argue that the protests are too easily hijacked as pretexts for violence (see, for example, Boris Johnson's recent remarks on the descecration of Winston Churchill's statue in Parliament Square in London). This assumes, weirdly, a widespread tendency towards unmotivated violence that I have never actually observed in any fellow human being. I am pretty sure that Boris Johnson could probably find someone to produce ethnographic evidence that it exists, but I am equally sure that he couldn't ever produce evidence that it is systemic. Without that evidence, there is no way to predict or explain the fire next time. Language stuff is not like this: every text is evidence of both the interpersonal and of what we are calling, non-redundantly, the socio-cultural. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WC3HFOsQ9Q1YrwAJJr6OrmYucGeF3_YdxFPBKTpboOV_8GcFMYTJ5DXB6_eP03Im5e4BWA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WC3HFOsQ9Q1YrwAJJr6OrmYucGeF3_YdxFPBKTpboOV_8GcFMYTJ5DXB6_eP03IavHbi-w$ On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 11:59 PM White, Phillip wrote: > rather than a test, David, perhaps a rigorous ethnography along the lines > of what Graham Nuthall did - > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://researched.org.uk/graham-nuthall-educational-research-at-its-best/__;!!Mih3wA!WC3HFOsQ9Q1YrwAJJr6OrmYucGeF3_YdxFPBKTpboOV_8GcFMYTJ5DXB6_eP03JLbcHzTg$ > > Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best ? researchED > > Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best 26th February 2019 / in > February 2019 / by Jan Tishauser. Professor Emeritus Graham Nuthall, an > educational researcher from New Zealand, is credited with one of the > longest series of studies of teaching and learning in the classroom that > has ever been carried out. A pioneer in his field, his ... > researched.org.uk > > > it was highly complex, but clearly from his finding emotions play a key > role in concept formation. > > he died about 16 years ago. and oddly enough his work is still little > appreciated. > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz/Pedagogy-and-assessment/Pedagogical-leadership/The-cultural-myths-and-realities-of-teaching-and-learning__;!!Mih3wA!WC3HFOsQ9Q1YrwAJJr6OrmYucGeF3_YdxFPBKTpboOV_8GcFMYTJ5DXB6_eP03IXsWJO4w$ > > The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning / Pedagogical > leadership / Pedagogy and assessment / Home - Educational Leaders > > The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning. by Graham > Nuthall. Download this complete document (PDF 149 kB) Help with PDF files > Overview. Graham Nuthall was Emeritus Professor of Education at the > University of Canterbury in Christchurch. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz__;!!Mih3wA!WC3HFOsQ9Q1YrwAJJr6OrmYucGeF3_YdxFPBKTpboOV_8GcFMYTJ5DXB6_eP03KC0heTTw$ > > > Nuthall had participated in some of xmca conversation. > > also, Gerard Edelman's work, which was the focus of an xmca conversation > some time ago, points out that initials perceptions are initially sorted > into one of two values - in layman's terms, like or dislike. which is of > course an emotional response. > > *Bright Air, Brilliant Fire: On the Matter of the Mind* (Basic Books, > 1992, Reprint edition 1993). ISBN > > 0-465-00764-3 > > > in short, there are many ways of exploring student emotions i'd consider > to be more reliable that trustworthy than tests. > > phillip > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200614/97e99d52/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jun 13 14:45:17 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 21:45:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hello Philip, the horse lover, I'd to thank you for posting Nuthall's work. I found it so insightful, not just about understanding learning, but also about understanding how research design can be misconstrued by cultural patterns and belief systems, and how we tend not to take in the reasons why the status quo IS the status quo. There is something of a mobius strip in all that. I anticipate that there is a lot of discussion about this very conundrum in Anthropology circles concerning methods of research and ethnographic models. What might they say about the problem? I also was very riveted to Nuthall's observations of the ways in which use of metacognitive turns can support a learner's awareness about how learning takes place, and how a learner comes to understand in themselves their own learning patterns. ---- Another observation I can't help but throw in to this is to share how in methodologies recorded in Vedic teachings there are accepted "protocols" in form for writing a teaching text. There is a method of using three forms. There is a Sanskrit word for this but it is escaping me at the moment. Anyway it's basically at the start of every text there is a full rendering of what the text contains. This is usually done in a poetic and concise manner. Then there is a connection made with the reader about what one will gain from learning the text, and then there is the text as presented. Now I want to ask about what that is more precisely so that I'm representing it properly, but it is a special format that is adhered to quite faithfully. Might this reveal that the ancients understood more than we might know about learning, especially in the handling of the text and its presentation of the underlying "lesson in three ways," which supports the human means (patterns) of learning (digestion or metabolizing) something. In any case, thanks posting. Nuthall is quite inspiring. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of White, Phillip Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2020 8:57 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" [EXTERNAL] rather than a test, David, perhaps a rigorous ethnography along the lines of what Graham Nuthall did - https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://researched.org.uk/graham-nuthall-educational-research-at-its-best/__;!!Mih3wA!Tbst4-RnyDRUs7MXG9INuncdaZK27ysULg-0Dsc3fnN7ivYlW5CDtHICHy4eekDs5tOydg$ Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best ? researchED Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best 26th February 2019 / in February 2019 / by Jan Tishauser. Professor Emeritus Graham Nuthall, an educational researcher from New Zealand, is credited with one of the longest series of studies of teaching and learning in the classroom that has ever been carried out. A pioneer in his field, his ... researched.org.uk it was highly complex, but clearly from his finding emotions play a key role in concept formation. he died about 16 years ago. and oddly enough his work is still little appreciated. https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz/Pedagogy-and-assessment/Pedagogical-leadership/The-cultural-myths-and-realities-of-teaching-and-learning__;!!Mih3wA!Tbst4-RnyDRUs7MXG9INuncdaZK27ysULg-0Dsc3fnN7ivYlW5CDtHICHy4eekANUYawwg$ The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning / Pedagogical leadership / Pedagogy and assessment / Home - Educational Leaders The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning. by Graham Nuthall. Download this complete document (PDF 149 kB) Help with PDF files Overview. Graham Nuthall was Emeritus Professor of Education at the University of Canterbury in Christchurch. https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz__;!!Mih3wA!Tbst4-RnyDRUs7MXG9INuncdaZK27ysULg-0Dsc3fnN7ivYlW5CDtHICHy4eekC0xrms-g$ Nuthall had participated in some of xmca conversation. also, Gerard Edelman's work, which was the focus of an xmca conversation some time ago, points out that initials perceptions are initially sorted into one of two values - in layman's terms, like or dislike. which is of course an emotional response. Bright Air, Brilliant Fire: On the Matter of the Mind (Basic Books, 1992, Reprint edition 1993). ISBN 0-465-00764-3 in short, there are many ways of exploring student emotions i'd consider to be more reliable that trustworthy than tests. phillip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200613/0c7b7de7/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jun 13 15:06:52 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 22:06:52 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: David, My stubborn persistence tells me that there is a way to bring in the dynamics of the pandemic crisis into your research design if we think about it long enough. If emotion is the sputnik, as you reasonably hypothesize, then how can you create opportunities for sputnik to launch? I maintain that this can be done with peer learning, because what counts is the cultural connection a student has with a peer compared to that cultural connection the student has with an instructor. Given in your description of social distancing, isn't there a way to compare and contrast learning that comes from "in person with social distancing" vis s vis learning that comes from "online learning"? What you describe in your study is not what I was proposing. I was proposing how a student learns from a peer presenting the object of learning compared to the way a teacher might. And to use online vs in person learning venues to compare and contrast what we might call the perezhivanie in the learning moment. If we might accept Nuthall's findings that learning happens when the underlying materials are presented at least three times, that should be a replicable structure that could bear fruit. It should be possible to determine and trace the emotional attachment that prevails in successful concept development. How about: * Have a control for presentations with underlying material offered three times (delivered via online learning?) * Have a presentation with socially distant teacher presenting three times. * Have a presentation with socially distant peer presenting three times. Note the differences and similarities, as well as effectiveness and even how quickly a concept is absorbed and mastered by the learner. What is the flaw in that design as you see it? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2020 3:26 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" [EXTERNAL] Annalisa: It's a great idea. But we are in the throes of "the dance" here in South Korea. Schools reopen. Then there's an outbreak. So the government closes schools again and we all go back into isolation for ten days. Then things reopen again, until the next outbreak. Even when schools are open, class size is greatly reduced, students are kept at least two meters apart and put in masks (we don't have those crazy hats that you see in China, but some schools use cubicles), and that would make it really hard to get peer teaching, much less collect data from peer teaching. We did do something like what you propose way back in 2007--we just looked at the difference between the way a teacher presented the task and the way that the task was represented to groups. Guk, I. and Kellogg, D. (2007). The ZPD and Whole Class Teaching: Teacher-led and Student-led Interactional Mediation in Tasks. Language Teaching Research 11,3 (2007); pp. 281?299 I suspect that if you read this study you will find it methodologically and even intellectually crude, particularly compared to what you propose, but for reasons I don't really understand it's the only thing we ever wrote that gets widely cited!) Phillip: Yes, ethnography would show precisely the kind of development we're interested in. But I think ethnography is better suited to studying stability than to studying crises. I get that crises are like anything else--they need to be highly contextured to be well textured. But because ethnography has a tendency to view the social and cultural and historical dimension exclusively through the language of the interpersonal, it's really hard to get genetic cross-sections that are broad enough and long enough to tell you how the system as a whole changes at "inflection points" (Joe Biden!) that are prepared for systematically precisely by those epochs we are naively thinking of as stable. (Ruqaiya Hasan's work was one of very few exceptions to this constraint....) For example. One of the most important responses to the crisis revealed by George Floyd's murder has been to argue that the protests are too easily hijacked as pretexts for violence (see, for example, Boris Johnson's recent remarks on the descecration of Winston Churchill's statue in Parliament Square in London). This assumes, weirdly, a widespread tendency towards unmotivated violence that I have never actually observed in any fellow human being. I am pretty sure that Boris Johnson could probably find someone to produce ethnographic evidence that it exists, but I am equally sure that he couldn't ever produce evidence that it is systemic. Without that evidence, there is no way to predict or explain the fire next time. Language stuff is not like this: every text is evidence of both the interpersonal and of what we are calling, non-redundantly, the socio-cultural. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TLw_cm-mjneg9FKI4T_DN5S8uOYAnXs7EEn-9PC6mpMeVDrjIGlGvg6t0pO0p2jtQkB_CQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TLw_cm-mjneg9FKI4T_DN5S8uOYAnXs7EEn-9PC6mpMeVDrjIGlGvg6t0pO0p2hW0kAA0g$ On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 11:59 PM White, Phillip > wrote: rather than a test, David, perhaps a rigorous ethnography along the lines of what Graham Nuthall did - https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://researched.org.uk/graham-nuthall-educational-research-at-its-best/__;!!Mih3wA!TLw_cm-mjneg9FKI4T_DN5S8uOYAnXs7EEn-9PC6mpMeVDrjIGlGvg6t0pO0p2isznA62w$ Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best ? researchED Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best 26th February 2019 / in February 2019 / by Jan Tishauser. Professor Emeritus Graham Nuthall, an educational researcher from New Zealand, is credited with one of the longest series of studies of teaching and learning in the classroom that has ever been carried out. A pioneer in his field, his ... researched.org.uk it was highly complex, but clearly from his finding emotions play a key role in concept formation. he died about 16 years ago. and oddly enough his work is still little appreciated. https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz/Pedagogy-and-assessment/Pedagogical-leadership/The-cultural-myths-and-realities-of-teaching-and-learning__;!!Mih3wA!TLw_cm-mjneg9FKI4T_DN5S8uOYAnXs7EEn-9PC6mpMeVDrjIGlGvg6t0pO0p2jbsWT_YQ$ The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning / Pedagogical leadership / Pedagogy and assessment / Home - Educational Leaders The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning. by Graham Nuthall. Download this complete document (PDF 149 kB) Help with PDF files Overview. Graham Nuthall was Emeritus Professor of Education at the University of Canterbury in Christchurch. https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz__;!!Mih3wA!TLw_cm-mjneg9FKI4T_DN5S8uOYAnXs7EEn-9PC6mpMeVDrjIGlGvg6t0pO0p2iJAhAXmg$ Nuthall had participated in some of xmca conversation. also, Gerard Edelman's work, which was the focus of an xmca conversation some time ago, points out that initials perceptions are initially sorted into one of two values - in layman's terms, like or dislike. which is of course an emotional response. Bright Air, Brilliant Fire: On the Matter of the Mind (Basic Books, 1992, Reprint edition 1993). ISBN 0-465-00764-3 in short, there are many ways of exploring student emotions i'd consider to be more reliable that trustworthy than tests. phillip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200613/ecbd3037/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Jun 13 15:15:04 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 16:15:04 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <007afb33-21e7-4c05-2138-3cd48ab788c8@marxists.org> References: <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <361553c6-674e-5758-0ec7-21e5be7cbce 5@marxists.org> <000401d63da3$4a3047d0$de90d770$@att.net> <0D51973B-8E27-49A8-83AE-A5BF3E79E133@cantab.net> <30f8a2a9-1a10-960f-fdc7 -6b50d3487ba7@marxists.org> <000201d63e70$9346ac70$b9d40550$@att.net> <007afb33-21e7-4c05-2138-3cd48ab788c8@marxists.org> Message-ID: Well done! > On Jun 10, 2020, at 9:08 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > There is a good run through of the data here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxPVSdHT5MQ&t=1365s__;!!Mih3wA!V79HPonCJOheOmYLDm9ACV-QCveadJ5mEvQ2TsyDo1t-wBpH33U_7JLymASpMHou-ckExQ$ > that's 22m45s in. > > Andy > > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 10/06/2020 1:13 am, Peg Griffin, Ph.D. wrote: >> Yes everyone suffers, but it is about white supremacy rather than racism. >> Other people in other places have other things, maybe other race supremacies to rise against. >> >> Whether it?s race or not, it?s people with the knees on the necks that must lead and be followed. >> Who follows, here, is whoever isn?t a white supremacist. >> It is painful and time taking to apprehend what white privilege means in action. It is difficult to persevere in the denial of white privilege in one?s own life. >> It?s a careful distinction ? between white supremacy and racism. >> >> Here and now the reduction to racism deflects us to an ?epigenetic byway,? provides room to protect dangerous institutions and practices, to produce misshapen changes. White supremacists make references to, praise, make symbols of, people who are not white whose jobs or statements or health; it is supposed to be prima facie evidence that they aren?t racist. More long term and subtly, it divides us, hides them, and maligns and degrades us. >> >> The ties that bind white supremacy and fascism are blatant, as Mike?s references to the late 30?s highlight. >> PG >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu ] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden >> Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 11:02 PM >> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis >> >> No, the American Century is over, I believe, even if America can take a leading part in ushering in the new epoch, I think it will be to release the rest of the world from the USA's mania to micromanage everyone else. The pandemic was, I think, the catalyst which brought the issues to the surface which were bubbling away for a long time. And might I venture the opinion that the vast investment in this BLM movement by young "white" people is in large part because cops kill a hell of a lot of white kids as well, and everyone is suffering under the system in which African Americans are victimised. >> >> Andy >> >> Andy Blunden >> Hegel for Social Movements >> Home Page >> On 9/06/2020 12:11 pm, Martin Packer wrote: >> On Jun 8, 2020, at 8:34 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >> >> Even in the depths of degradation and ignominy America can lead, it seems. >> >> This is something worth and worthy of theorizing, isn?t it?! Turns out the World Perezhivanie is not the coronavirus, or at least not the coronavirus alone. It is racism. And the global subject that has just been formed has found its lead in the US. The US Century may not be over after all! >> >> Martin >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200613/cc4b86f9/attachment.html From mcole@UCSD.EDU Sat Jun 13 15:52:04 2020 From: mcole@UCSD.EDU (mike cole) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 15:52:04 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David -- This sentence caught my attention. I do not know how to interpret it. We did do something like what you propose way back in 2007--*we just looked at the difference between the way a teacher presented the task and the way that the task was represented to groups.* Not having read the Guk and Kellogg paper, I get hung up on the words what the distinction is between *a teacher presenting a task* and the way that *the task was REpresented to the groups*. Are you using presented and represented informally as synonyms? I am trying to imagine the interaction. About tests and ethnographies. Tests are snapshots. Its awfully difficult to capture developmental change in a snapshot it is said. Better a video clip? mike On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 2:32 PM David Kellogg wrote: > Annalisa: > > It's a great idea. But we are in the throes of "the dance" here in South > Korea. Schools reopen. Then there's an outbreak. So the government closes > schools again and we all go back into isolation for ten days. Then things > reopen again, until the next outbreak. Even when schools are open, class > size is greatly reduced, students are kept at least two meters apart and > put in masks (we don't have those crazy hats that you see in China, but > some schools use cubicles), and that would make it really hard to get peer > teaching, much less collect data from peer teaching. > > We did do something like what you propose way back in 2007--we just looked > at the difference between the way a teacher presented the task and the way > that the task was represented to groups. > > Guk, I. and Kellogg, D. (2007). The ZPD and Whole Class Teaching: > Teacher-led and Student-led Interactional Mediation in Tasks. Language > Teaching Research 11,3 (2007); pp. 281?299 > > I suspect that if you read this study you will find it methodologically > and even intellectually crude, particularly compared to what you propose, > but for reasons I don't really understand it's the only thing we ever wrote > that gets widely cited!) > > Phillip: > > Yes, ethnography would show precisely the kind of development we're > interested in. But I think ethnography is better suited to studying > stability than to studying crises. I get that crises are like anything > else--they need to be highly contextured to be well textured. But because > ethnography has a tendency to view the social and cultural and historical > dimension exclusively through the language of the interpersonal, it's > really hard to get genetic cross-sections that are broad enough and long > enough to tell you how the system as a whole changes at "inflection points" > (Joe Biden!) that are prepared for systematically precisely by those epochs > we are naively thinking of as stable. (Ruqaiya Hasan's work was one of very > few exceptions to this constraint....) > > For example. One of the most important responses to the crisis revealed by > George Floyd's murder has been to argue that the protests are too easily > hijacked as pretexts for violence (see, for example, Boris Johnson's recent > remarks on the descecration of Winston Churchill's statue in Parliament > Square in London). This assumes, weirdly, a widespread tendency towards > unmotivated violence that I have never actually observed in any fellow > human being. I am pretty sure that Boris Johnson could probably find > someone to produce ethnographic evidence that it exists, but I am equally > sure that he couldn't ever produce evidence that it is systemic. Without > that evidence, there is no way to predict or explain the fire next time. > > Language stuff is not like this: every text is evidence of both the > interpersonal and of what we are calling, non-redundantly, the > socio-cultural. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Vz2RLDwuF5c-VkN7oR3CdJ-V3QqgDd5W1EaMzuybMqfsSJSpn5yA3c3-UR1gD2alEZHnog$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Vz2RLDwuF5c-VkN7oR3CdJ-V3QqgDd5W1EaMzuybMqfsSJSpn5yA3c3-UR1gD2byzpMKmQ$ > > > > > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 11:59 PM White, Phillip < > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: > >> rather than a test, David, perhaps a rigorous ethnography along the lines >> of what Graham Nuthall did - >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://researched.org.uk/graham-nuthall-educational-research-at-its-best/__;!!Mih3wA!Vz2RLDwuF5c-VkN7oR3CdJ-V3QqgDd5W1EaMzuybMqfsSJSpn5yA3c3-UR1gD2Z0YvncGw$ >> >> Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best ? researchED >> >> Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best 26th February 2019 / in >> February 2019 / by Jan Tishauser. Professor Emeritus Graham Nuthall, an >> educational researcher from New Zealand, is credited with one of the >> longest series of studies of teaching and learning in the classroom that >> has ever been carried out. A pioneer in his field, his ... >> researched.org.uk >> >> >> >> it was highly complex, but clearly from his finding emotions play a key >> role in concept formation. >> >> he died about 16 years ago. and oddly enough his work is still little >> appreciated. >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz/Pedagogy-and-assessment/Pedagogical-leadership/The-cultural-myths-and-realities-of-teaching-and-learning__;!!Mih3wA!Vz2RLDwuF5c-VkN7oR3CdJ-V3QqgDd5W1EaMzuybMqfsSJSpn5yA3c3-UR1gD2Y0x5yD5w$ >> >> The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning / Pedagogical >> leadership / Pedagogy and assessment / Home - Educational Leaders >> >> The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning. by Graham >> Nuthall. Download this complete document (PDF 149 kB) Help with PDF files >> Overview. Graham Nuthall was Emeritus Professor of Education at the >> University of Canterbury in Christchurch. >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz__;!!Mih3wA!Vz2RLDwuF5c-VkN7oR3CdJ-V3QqgDd5W1EaMzuybMqfsSJSpn5yA3c3-UR1gD2Z8FvvZVg$ >> >> >> Nuthall had participated in some of xmca conversation. >> >> also, Gerard Edelman's work, which was the focus of an xmca conversation >> some time ago, points out that initials perceptions are initially sorted >> into one of two values - in layman's terms, like or dislike. which is of >> course an emotional response. >> >> *Bright Air, Brilliant Fire: On the Matter of the Mind* (Basic Books, >> 1992, Reprint edition 1993). ISBN >> >> 0-465-00764-3 >> >> >> in short, there are many ways of exploring student emotions i'd consider >> to be more reliable that trustworthy than tests. >> >> phillip >> > -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Vz2RLDwuF5c-VkN7oR3CdJ-V3QqgDd5W1EaMzuybMqfsSJSpn5yA3c3-UR1gD2ZHib185A$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200613/9c2a5b35/attachment.html From mailer@doodle.com Sat Jun 13 20:41:06 2020 From: mailer@doodle.com (Ana (via Doodle)) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 03:41:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Poll results: DPJ Author's podcast Message-ID: Hi, Ana has chosen the following final date in the poll DPJ Author's podcast: Time zone: Eastern Time * Tuesday, June 16, 2020 12:00 PM ? 2:00 PM Hello, Thanks, everyone who participated in this poll. The results are in and I'd like to share them with you. We will hold the DPJ Authors' Podcast with Eugene Matusov and Lucinda Pease-Alvarez, authors of the DPJ newly published article "Moving from collaboration to critical dialogue in action in education" will take place on Tuesday, June 16th from 12:00 noon to 2:00 pm EDT (Eastern Daylight Savings Time) in Philadelphia. (Please use Time Zone converter to calculate your own time zone's time.) on Zoom: Topic: Author's Podcast with Eugene and Cindy Join us! Time: Jun 16, 2020, 12:00 PM Eastern Time (the US and Canada) Please check out Facebook Page or email me at anamshane_at_gmail_dot_com to get the Zoom Link Ana Go to poll https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.e.doodle.com/ls/click?upn=tj06F74K67F9jS-2B7bRMCnoBLLqs9GAYYN-2FoLvL7mXuJgpnwjAgFNSp7nCUtNw9V2nAohhR8pdcWvuzrbpaV4Dy16PHHkuaHjnlqHkQRNWl98YVov0ML969pV006QxZaNnwpUbsY6BIceS9CQD-2FpuVAIqWZPZDL6oirlazPaPyi8pu-2BoWUE6LbmRz16Xjq8x4anImFlNd-2FgpyzopMbDzQAq5SyjLku5lZl16ILwWtUlAZ6CSq1koj2I4Ik0W3j7bQMKhZ_2jD0Di4f8Vi9UBNkzbk-2B2rzRgeCGMcn1IcytgC751Axd-2FRVyXk1O-2BZNowmm4KwKK0UT8TWKBsmSpM1MAyuFalsxNNPp9-2BVvQxhxm9DSh4cMbQSnkD2Aq0ldQgmsrmJT7dKZdCTF-2BQHBjwO-2BT8SXmvnKPwVixYcOeidYYa5u74lzvGHijCglEvqBD6Nt4sp4SS7EZdgbqoFI0iGXxTXdx1vqb-2BvSBiFFCvd2afThYvuOk9kSPu77ErEM4X8r3fTNdMV9MI-2BZ9d6Nx1WIkMOaMtdV9sZoZWO7kgnsDVwapYx1GzeOa9Mp9Y-2BhaufjXkRe1IjBkfiFT639giLpQmHZA-2BD3M2QN4SzoLfRiDHFnx75MopAgfLRswK3cp-2FvyMP2xeLwXBMTnGu21s9odPmoFXaai-2F3ZBPEOskMfdEe9r9jIQ-3D__;!!Mih3wA!Qs8Me8GNluPXYmNBcV_B2s_3Ct75xy1m5dI0jkpf0AGsjlSK1KqeuGu0yvMVVfNm-eVKlw$ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Best wishes, The Doodle Team ---- Doodle AG, Werdstrasse 21, 8021 Z?rich Why did I receive this email? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.e.doodle.com/ls/click?upn=tj06F74K67F9jS-2B7bRMCns5zuGsC2KKv4-2Fcjfmnz8BH3XeInFri5Ol1p124ehn0ryaESogW3jBEZtuatFOT-2BSvY2nn1EOtCAkRb4Z0HQ-2FAzARPfuKasJOGbW6Ht0s8G-2BgyjREwabE0HFl6jI2wBU3g-3D-3DXT0t_2jD0Di4f8Vi9UBNkzbk-2B2rzRgeCGMcn1IcytgC751Axd-2FRVyXk1O-2BZNowmm4KwKK0UT8TWKBsmSpM1MAyuFalsxNNPp9-2BVvQxhxm9DSh4cMbQSnkD2Aq0ldQgmsrmJT7dKZdCTF-2BQHBjwO-2BT8SXmvnKPwVixYcOeidYYa5u74lzvGHijCglEvqBD6Nt4sp4Sx88D92k5TCtjv4uySP-2F3kmCvuRlO9UKpjs8Mb-2F-2FZVz7ekFVKSix-2F67-2Blg2VI3zVHLiSTaRzZOuIqIjRBAh0y5zsrL93UZJ4J-2F7aOekMc-2BRJGDcqsovEqWNQUDVreij3EdoRE94BwGbqswEQKP5oI98IFPy6jT9FvBoG0SsPtc2r2dGsqFbZDfyyj6UcSDEhGEaVcsCQ33AbH4IE7-2BJTUyTuqXmasLxYqNE7t2Gkyh4Y-3D__;!!Mih3wA!Qs8Me8GNluPXYmNBcV_B2s_3Ct75xy1m5dI0jkpf0AGsjlSK1KqeuGu0yvMVVfN2IYQkOQ$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200614/35eebf9f/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Doodle.ics Type: text/calendar Size: 931 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200614/35eebf9f/attachment.bin From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Jun 13 23:43:45 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 15:43:45 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Annalisa and Mike: The Good Lord loves and rewards stubborn persistence, Annalisa. I am not sure kids do, though--will they want to sit through the same presentation three times? Or do you simply mean we use three different presentations so that we can randomize the order? Of course, "sputnik" didn't mean a satellite for Vygotsky--the first Sputniks were launched just before I was born, about twenty years after Vygotsky died. When I first translated Vygotsky, I thought a "sputnik" was a kind of sattelite God, Hermes to Zeus, Hanuman to Ram, Athena to Odysseus. But I notice that Russians use "sputnik" to just mean something like "companion", a fellow traveler, or a playmate. So instead of a kind of guardian angel, emotion functions as a bosom companion, growing up as the child grows. I have--as usual--expressed myself rather poorly, Mike. (It will amuse you greatly to learn that I am teaching Communication this term!) When I said "represent" I did mean re-present. I actually meant exactly what Annalisa is describing. The teacher presents the task (usually a dramatic situation of some kind) to a small group of "group leaders" and they do an example before the class begins. Those group leaders then return to their groups and present the task to the groups. We did video the results, but I thought the product wasn't nearly as interesting as analyzing the process. Phillip: Halliday thought that Edelman's view of intelligence was the real biological foundation of his linguistics. And Annalisa is right, it did have a lot to do with Edelman's theory of re-entrant ("mirror") neurons. Andy has some trouble with the determinism of Vygotsky; I have a rather different problem with his hierarchical ideas of how functions are organized in a system. Edelman's books offer a pretty clear way out of that problem! On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 7:10 AM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > David, > > My stubborn persistence tells me that there is a way to bring in the > dynamics of the pandemic crisis into your research design if we think about > it long enough. > > If emotion is the sputnik, as you reasonably hypothesize, then how can you > create opportunities for sputnik to launch? > > I maintain that this can be done with peer learning, because what counts > is the cultural connection a student has with a peer compared to that > cultural connection the student has with an instructor. Given in your > description of social distancing, isn't there a way to compare and contrast > learning that comes from "in person with social distancing" vis s vis > learning that comes from "online learning"? > > What you describe in your study is not what I was proposing. I was > proposing how a student learns from a peer presenting the object of > learning compared to the way a teacher might. And to use online vs in > person learning venues to compare and contrast what we might call the > perezhivanie in the learning moment. > > If we might accept Nuthall's findings that learning happens when the > underlying materials are presented at least three times, that should be a > replicable structure that could bear fruit. It should be possible to > determine and trace the emotional attachment that prevails in successful > concept development. > > How about: > > - Have a control for presentations with underlying material offered > three times (delivered via online learning?) > - Have a presentation with socially distant teacher presenting three > times. > - Have a presentation with socially distant peer presenting three > times. > > > Note the differences and similarities, as well as effectiveness and even > how quickly a concept is absorbed and mastered by the learner. > > What is the flaw in that design as you see it? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > *Sent:* Saturday, June 13, 2020 3:26 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Annalisa: > > It's a great idea. But we are in the throes of "the dance" here in South > Korea. Schools reopen. Then there's an outbreak. So the government closes > schools again and we all go back into isolation for ten days. Then things > reopen again, until the next outbreak. Even when schools are open, class > size is greatly reduced, students are kept at least two meters apart and > put in masks (we don't have those crazy hats that you see in China, but > some schools use cubicles), and that would make it really hard to get peer > teaching, much less collect data from peer teaching. > > We did do something like what you propose way back in 2007--we just looked > at the difference between the way a teacher presented the task and the way > that the task was represented to groups. > > Guk, I. and Kellogg, D. (2007). The ZPD and Whole Class Teaching: > Teacher-led and Student-led Interactional Mediation in Tasks. Language > Teaching Research 11,3 (2007); pp. 281?299 > > I suspect that if you read this study you will find it methodologically > and even intellectually crude, particularly compared to what you propose, > but for reasons I don't really understand it's the only thing we ever wrote > that gets widely cited!) > > Phillip: > > Yes, ethnography would show precisely the kind of development we're > interested in. But I think ethnography is better suited to studying > stability than to studying crises. I get that crises are like anything > else--they need to be highly contextured to be well textured. But because > ethnography has a tendency to view the social and cultural and historical > dimension exclusively through the language of the interpersonal, it's > really hard to get genetic cross-sections that are broad enough and long > enough to tell you how the system as a whole changes at "inflection points" > (Joe Biden!) that are prepared for systematically precisely by those epochs > we are naively thinking of as stable. (Ruqaiya Hasan's work was one of very > few exceptions to this constraint....) > > For example. One of the most important responses to the crisis revealed by > George Floyd's murder has been to argue that the protests are too easily > hijacked as pretexts for violence (see, for example, Boris Johnson's recent > remarks on the descecration of Winston Churchill's statue in Parliament > Square in London). This assumes, weirdly, a widespread tendency towards > unmotivated violence that I have never actually observed in any fellow > human being. I am pretty sure that Boris Johnson could probably find > someone to produce ethnographic evidence that it exists, but I am equally > sure that he couldn't ever produce evidence that it is systemic. Without > that evidence, there is no way to predict or explain the fire next time. > > Language stuff is not like this: every text is evidence of both the > interpersonal and of what we are calling, non-redundantly, the > socio-cultural. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QniU8qpEc4XteLAT4T5hxTRGUd9fxaqasjLsXXKsAvFWgiZ4fMH8VVv0mjVbJLvQqXLtqA$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QniU8qpEc4XteLAT4T5hxTRGUd9fxaqasjLsXXKsAvFWgiZ4fMH8VVv0mjVbJLth1foD8A$ > > > > > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 11:59 PM White, Phillip < > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: > > rather than a test, David, perhaps a rigorous ethnography along the lines > of what Graham Nuthall did - > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://researched.org.uk/graham-nuthall-educational-research-at-its-best/__;!!Mih3wA!QniU8qpEc4XteLAT4T5hxTRGUd9fxaqasjLsXXKsAvFWgiZ4fMH8VVv0mjVbJLuMXq4JbA$ > > Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best ? researchED > > Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best 26th February 2019 / in > February 2019 / by Jan Tishauser. Professor Emeritus Graham Nuthall, an > educational researcher from New Zealand, is credited with one of the > longest series of studies of teaching and learning in the classroom that > has ever been carried out. A pioneer in his field, his ... > researched.org.uk > > > > it was highly complex, but clearly from his finding emotions play a key > role in concept formation. > > he died about 16 years ago. and oddly enough his work is still little > appreciated. > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz/Pedagogy-and-assessment/Pedagogical-leadership/The-cultural-myths-and-realities-of-teaching-and-learning__;!!Mih3wA!QniU8qpEc4XteLAT4T5hxTRGUd9fxaqasjLsXXKsAvFWgiZ4fMH8VVv0mjVbJLsjKSSxaA$ > > The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning / Pedagogical > leadership / Pedagogy and assessment / Home - Educational Leaders > > The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning. by Graham > Nuthall. Download this complete document (PDF 149 kB) Help with PDF files > Overview. Graham Nuthall was Emeritus Professor of Education at the > University of Canterbury in Christchurch. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz__;!!Mih3wA!QniU8qpEc4XteLAT4T5hxTRGUd9fxaqasjLsXXKsAvFWgiZ4fMH8VVv0mjVbJLt4jdvbkA$ > > > Nuthall had participated in some of xmca conversation. > > also, Gerard Edelman's work, which was the focus of an xmca conversation > some time ago, points out that initials perceptions are initially sorted > into one of two values - in layman's terms, like or dislike. which is of > course an emotional response. > > *Bright Air, Brilliant Fire: On the Matter of the Mind* (Basic Books, > 1992, Reprint edition 1993). ISBN > > 0-465-00764-3 > > > in short, there are many ways of exploring student emotions i'd consider > to be more reliable that trustworthy than tests. > > phillip > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200614/c5574c5b/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Sun Jun 14 03:14:15 2020 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 15:44:15 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] On "The death of George Floyd". Message-ID: .*An analysis of the event of unfortunate death of George Floyd* The unfortunate death of Georg Floyd and subsequent break out of protest, agony and riots are on the head line attention of the people of most of the nations of the world, particularly in the USA and UK. I put my following observations and learning from the news/messages, debates on the internet and newspapers on the event. The issue has the following vital steps. 1. Floyd's past history and the last act of operating a fake currency note. 2. Police's actions, and one plus other associated officers? involvement in particular action in which Floyd lost his life. 3. People's agony spread of the news/video, protests followed, riots broke out, and events of looting and fire took place. 4. Government's actions against the police officers in phase manner. 5. Government's actions to restore the law and order. 6. The root source of the said fake currency bill. (Totally missing in news, debates and discussions.) If an event happens and a huge mass of the people gets aggravated due to the event, it is a most promising opportunity for the *shopkeepers* just harboring in the society. These *shopkeepers* are always present in any society and they ride on the situation created by such events. Here also, different *shopkeepers* have opened their shops to push their targets forward. These *shopkeepers* are the useless buggers with a target to create nuisance on opportunity and claim their benefit behind the curtain to divert and calm down the flood of emotions erupted in a huge mass of population that gets emerged by such unfortunate events. The flooding hysteria of agony and outburst of hatred in people on such events always provides the required free resource of energy to the *shopkeepers* to realize their targets. They always regulate and control the flood of agony providing sensitive guidelines, sending hidden representatives among the directionless agonized mass of the people. The guide lines are well designed by the *shopkeepers* but it has nothing to do with the events but to exert pressure on the ruling crook to sit on the table behind the curtain to negotiate a deal on their demand. The *shopkeepers* will negotiate and secure their benefits against their services and compliance to cooperate with ruling crooks by terminating their leadership and stopping to provide sensitive guidelines to the mass. At the same time they render services to slowly divert them to calm down the agitation and ruling crook pays them in terms of benefits negotiated on a table behind the curtain. There is nothing new in it because rulers of the capitalistic society in its latest socio economic formation have no alternative but to hire services of low moral people (here the *shopkeepers*) for their survival on the ruling seat. It is the reason we find wealth under the command of low moral people in capitalist society. If people of present society believe that hysteria and agony of their emotion will sort out the issue, they are mistaken. Such spirit will get exploited by opportunistic people only. A mass mobilization with agony and hatred on any event will never return with any improvement. It requires hard home work during the time (period) before such events take place. This homework might only give insight to reveal the root cause of the same. Every person in the mass of people that participated the agitation and shared his/her valuable time, energy, perhaps blood and tears should ask a question to himself/herself, ?Where did he/she devote their time and which activities he/she carried out during the last few months/years before the event took place?? ?Did the activities that were carried out and time was devoted have real and practical concern with the demand they present today after the happening of the event?? If people of any nation with a social system of socio economic formation of 21st century believe that ?Making living of my dream is my concern but how this society and its productive system functions is neither my look out nor it is a subject of interest.? Presence of such people does not harm them only but contracts an invisible harm to the social system also. They are not aware that they are part of the productive force of this society. If they do not want to take pain and bother to audit the social functioning by their knowledge, there will be many social diseases and ?cropping up of the *shopkeepers*? is one of them. Even an animal that is careless to detect a change in smell, abnormal sound or movement around it pays hard for it. We established a human society and developed it but it never gives relief from the liability of keeping us alert and watchful on the happenings and functioning of the society. If we stand on a belief that it is not our concern then the death of Floyd gives a message ?No it is your concern.? Harshad Dave [Email: hhdave15@gamil.com] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200614/65f66ec3/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Sun Jun 14 09:47:31 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 10:47:31 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8F5F9567-66D4-475A-A732-186603E7F055@gmail.com> David, Annalisa, Anthony, Martin, Phillip and the rest of cast of characters, I got lost in the details of the methodological maze you and Annalisa constructed until this turn of yours. Thanks for pulling it together. Mike isn?t the only one amused by the practice-what-you-teach lesson to yourself. Of course, I get up every day looking for these lessons to myself. I assume Anthony does as well. How could any 8th grade English teacher get through the day otherwise? Staying humble. HAS to be why he got through the little kerfufle with Martin so gracefully. I am impressed with the lot of you. I?ve been in the hospital and recuperating from a little bowel obstruction since Tuesday and only yesterday had a chance to read the chat dialog since the SBO hit me. It was jumble last night, but when I woke up and read this post, it all became clear. Ha! David, Would you please expand on your last paragraph on Edelman, Halliday and Vygotsky and how Edelman?s ?mirror? neurons ?offer a pretty clear way out of the problem?? Maybe re-present ?the problem?? Henry > On Jun 14, 2020, at 12:43 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > > Annalisa and Mike: > > The Good Lord loves and rewards stubborn persistence, Annalisa. I am not sure kids do, though--will they want to sit through the same presentation three times? Or do you simply mean we use three different presentations so that we can randomize the order? Of course, "sputnik" didn't mean a satellite for Vygotsky--the first Sputniks were launched just before I was born, about twenty years after Vygotsky died. When I first translated Vygotsky, I thought a "sputnik" was a kind of sattelite God, Hermes to Zeus, Hanuman to Ram, Athena to Odysseus. But I notice that Russians use "sputnik" to just mean something like "companion", a fellow traveler, or a playmate. So instead of a kind of guardian angel, emotion functions as a bosom companion, growing up as the child grows. > > I have--as usual--expressed myself rather poorly, Mike. (It will amuse you greatly to learn that I am teaching Communication this term!) When I said "represent" I did mean re-present. I actually meant exactly what Annalisa is describing. The teacher presents the task (usually a dramatic situation of some kind) to a small group of "group leaders" and they do an example before the class begins. Those group leaders then return to their groups and present the task to the groups. We did video the results, but I thought the product wasn't nearly as interesting as analyzing the process. > > Phillip: Halliday thought that Edelman's view of intelligence was the real biological foundation of his linguistics. And Annalisa is right, it did have a lot to do with Edelman's theory of re-entrant ("mirror") neurons. Andy has some trouble with the determinism of Vygotsky; I have a rather different problem with his hierarchical ideas of how functions are organized in a system. Edelman's books offer a pretty clear way out of that problem! > > > On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 7:10 AM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > David, > > My stubborn persistence tells me that there is a way to bring in the dynamics of the pandemic crisis into your research design if we think about it long enough. > > If emotion is the sputnik, as you reasonably hypothesize, then how can you create opportunities for sputnik to launch? > > I maintain that this can be done with peer learning, because what counts is the cultural connection a student has with a peer compared to that cultural connection the student has with an instructor. Given in your description of social distancing, isn't there a way to compare and contrast learning that comes from "in person with social distancing" vis s vis learning that comes from "online learning"? > > What you describe in your study is not what I was proposing. I was proposing how a student learns from a peer presenting the object of learning compared to the way a teacher might. And to use online vs in person learning venues to compare and contrast what we might call the perezhivanie in the learning moment. > > If we might accept Nuthall's findings that learning happens when the underlying materials are presented at least three times, that should be a replicable structure that could bear fruit. It should be possible to determine and trace the emotional attachment that prevails in successful concept development. > > How about: > Have a control for presentations with underlying material offered three times (delivered via online learning?) > Have a presentation with socially distant teacher presenting three times. > Have a presentation with socially distant peer presenting three times. > > Note the differences and similarities, as well as effectiveness and even how quickly a concept is absorbed and mastered by the learner. > > What is the flaw in that design as you see it? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > > Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2020 3:26 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" > > [EXTERNAL] > > Annalisa: > > It's a great idea. But we are in the throes of "the dance" here in South Korea. Schools reopen. Then there's an outbreak. So the government closes schools again and we all go back into isolation for ten days. Then things reopen again, until the next outbreak. Even when schools are open, class size is greatly reduced, students are kept at least two meters apart and put in masks (we don't have those crazy hats that you see in China, but some schools use cubicles), and that would make it really hard to get peer teaching, much less collect data from peer teaching. > > We did do something like what you propose way back in 2007--we just looked at the difference between the way a teacher presented the task and the way that the task was represented to groups. > > Guk, I. and Kellogg, D. (2007). The ZPD and Whole Class Teaching: Teacher-led and Student-led Interactional Mediation in Tasks. Language Teaching Research 11,3 (2007); pp. 281?299 > > I suspect that if you read this study you will find it methodologically and even intellectually crude, particularly compared to what you propose, but for reasons I don't really understand it's the only thing we ever wrote that gets widely cited!) > > Phillip: > > Yes, ethnography would show precisely the kind of development we're interested in. But I think ethnography is better suited to studying stability than to studying crises. I get that crises are like anything else--they need to be highly contextured to be well textured. But because ethnography has a tendency to view the social and cultural and historical dimension exclusively through the language of the interpersonal, it's really hard to get genetic cross-sections that are broad enough and long enough to tell you how the system as a whole changes at "inflection points" (Joe Biden!) that are prepared for systematically precisely by those epochs we are naively thinking of as stable. (Ruqaiya Hasan's work was one of very few exceptions to this constraint....) > > For example. One of the most important responses to the crisis revealed by George Floyd's murder has been to argue that the protests are too easily hijacked as pretexts for violence (see, for example, Boris Johnson's recent remarks on the descecration of Winston Churchill's statue in Parliament Square in London). This assumes, weirdly, a widespread tendency towards unmotivated violence that I have never actually observed in any fellow human being. I am pretty sure that Boris Johnson could probably find someone to produce ethnographic evidence that it exists, but I am equally sure that he couldn't ever produce evidence that it is systemic. Without that evidence, there is no way to predict or explain the fire next time. > > Language stuff is not like this: every text is evidence of both the interpersonal and of what we are calling, non-redundantly, the socio-cultural. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TRi4qZYCcY3D--03eTQ04WFYaUiUfo2N0aHC2J0slSPCXPvQ1T2bC3i8k18O39KqfPRvFg$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TRi4qZYCcY3D--03eTQ04WFYaUiUfo2N0aHC2J0slSPCXPvQ1T2bC3i8k18O39JoT3jNHw$ > > > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 11:59 PM White, Phillip > wrote: > rather than a test, David, perhaps a rigorous ethnography along the lines of what Graham Nuthall did - > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://researched.org.uk/graham-nuthall-educational-research-at-its-best/__;!!Mih3wA!TRi4qZYCcY3D--03eTQ04WFYaUiUfo2N0aHC2J0slSPCXPvQ1T2bC3i8k18O39Icq5VH5w$ > Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best ? researchED > Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best 26th February 2019 / in February 2019 / by Jan Tishauser. Professor Emeritus Graham Nuthall, an educational researcher from New Zealand, is credited with one of the longest series of studies of teaching and learning in the classroom that has ever been carried out. A pioneer in his field, his ... > researched.org.uk > > it was highly complex, but clearly from his finding emotions play a key role in concept formation. > > he died about 16 years ago. and oddly enough his work is still little appreciated. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz/Pedagogy-and-assessment/Pedagogical-leadership/The-cultural-myths-and-realities-of-teaching-and-learning__;!!Mih3wA!TRi4qZYCcY3D--03eTQ04WFYaUiUfo2N0aHC2J0slSPCXPvQ1T2bC3i8k18O39KPDeXBUQ$ > The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning / Pedagogical leadership / Pedagogy and assessment / Home - Educational Leaders > The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning. by Graham Nuthall. Download this complete document (PDF 149 kB) Help with PDF files Overview. Graham Nuthall was Emeritus Professor of Education at the University of Canterbury in Christchurch. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz__;!!Mih3wA!TRi4qZYCcY3D--03eTQ04WFYaUiUfo2N0aHC2J0slSPCXPvQ1T2bC3i8k18O39LjenATEg$ > > Nuthall had participated in some of xmca conversation. > > also, Gerard Edelman's work, which was the focus of an xmca conversation some time ago, points out that initials perceptions are initially sorted into one of two values - in layman's terms, like or dislike. which is of course an emotional response. > > Bright Air, Brilliant Fire: On the Matter of the Mind (Basic Books, 1992, Reprint edition 1993). ISBN 0-465-00764-3 > > in short, there are many ways of exploring student emotions i'd consider to be more reliable that trustworthy than tests. > > phillip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200614/0c508401/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Jun 14 10:54:24 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 10:54:24 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: <8F5F9567-66D4-475A-A732-186603E7F055@gmail.com> References: <8F5F9567-66D4-475A-A732-186603E7F055@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks, David. That seems just the right way to think about the process, a re-presentation, a focus on the process, an event occurring over time. Seems like this is part of what microethnography provides, so long as we realize that the test itself is a process operating on a different time scale, and taken as a "thing" operating in what journalists are calling "real time" these days. People like Bud Mehan and Aaron Cicourel were studying the process of test taking "itself," a process that Ray McDermott and David Roth pursued as part of our studies of ecological validity at Rock U. I am not sure it got written up formally. I recall Ray saying in frustration one day after a dozen hours watching a professional tester administer a set of tests to an 11 year old boy, "THe context is between their eyes! I can't see it." Exactly what a test is supposed to do , create a thing so you can measure it. Now people seek to make the visible through analysis of fmri's. Through a different glass, but foggily. mike PS-- I suggest again that in thinking about these issues, Powers of Ten, seems helpful to think with. Besides, its interesting in itself even if my thinking is not! https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=powers*of*ten&oq=Powers*of*Ten&aqs=chrome.0.35i39j46j0l5j69i61.2991j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8__;KysrKw!!Mih3wA!TmAYwTcFqnzEuLRdRsdUrETBcrLxlvD6IMUPNXsOyvZkSMbEW_dV6K6yz9JHbOHJ2xHPsw$ On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 9:49 AM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > David, Annalisa, Anthony, Martin, Phillip and the rest of cast of > characters, > I got lost in the details of the methodological maze you and Annalisa > constructed until this turn of yours. Thanks for pulling it together. Mike > isn?t the only one amused by the practice-what-you-teach lesson to > yourself. Of course, I get up every day looking for these lessons to > myself. I assume Anthony does as well. How could any 8th grade English > teacher get through the day otherwise? Staying humble. HAS to be why he got > through the little kerfufle with Martin so gracefully. I am impressed with > the lot of you. I?ve been in the hospital and recuperating from a little > bowel obstruction since Tuesday and only yesterday had a chance to read the > chat dialog since the SBO hit me. It was jumble last night, but when I > woke up and read this post, it all became clear. Ha! > > David, Would you please expand on your last paragraph on Edelman, Halliday > and Vygotsky and how Edelman?s ?mirror? neurons ?offer a pretty clear way > out of the problem?? Maybe re-present ?the problem?? > Henry > > > > > On Jun 14, 2020, at 12:43 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > > Annalisa and Mike: > > The Good Lord loves and rewards stubborn persistence, Annalisa. I am not > sure kids do, though--will they want to sit through the same presentation > three times? Or do you simply mean we use three different presentations so > that we can randomize the order? Of course, "sputnik" didn't mean a > satellite for Vygotsky--the first Sputniks were launched just before I was > born, about twenty years after Vygotsky died. When I first translated > Vygotsky, I thought a "sputnik" was a kind of sattelite God, Hermes to > Zeus, Hanuman to Ram, Athena to Odysseus. But I notice that Russians use > "sputnik" to just mean something like "companion", a fellow traveler, or a > playmate. So instead of a kind of guardian angel, emotion functions as a > bosom companion, growing up as the child grows. > > I have--as usual--expressed myself rather poorly, Mike. (It will amuse you > greatly to learn that I am teaching Communication this term!) When I said > "represent" I did mean re-present. I actually meant exactly what Annalisa > is describing. The teacher presents the task (usually a dramatic situation > of some kind) to a small group of "group leaders" and they do an example > before the class begins. Those group leaders then return to their groups > and present the task to the groups. We did video the results, but I thought > the product wasn't nearly as interesting as analyzing the process. > > Phillip: Halliday thought that Edelman's view of intelligence was the real > biological foundation of his linguistics. And Annalisa is right, it did > have a lot to do with Edelman's theory of re-entrant ("mirror") neurons. > Andy has some trouble with the determinism of Vygotsky; I have a rather > different problem with his hierarchical ideas of how functions are > organized in a system. Edelman's books offer a pretty clear way out of that > problem! > > > On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 7:10 AM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >> David, >> >> My stubborn persistence tells me that there is a way to bring in the >> dynamics of the pandemic crisis into your research design if we think about >> it long enough. >> >> If emotion is the sputnik, as you reasonably hypothesize, then how can >> you create opportunities for sputnik to launch? >> >> I maintain that this can be done with peer learning, because what counts >> is the cultural connection a student has with a peer compared to that >> cultural connection the student has with an instructor. Given in your >> description of social distancing, isn't there a way to compare and contrast >> learning that comes from "in person with social distancing" vis s vis >> learning that comes from "online learning"? >> >> What you describe in your study is not what I was proposing. I was >> proposing how a student learns from a peer presenting the object of >> learning compared to the way a teacher might. And to use online vs in >> person learning venues to compare and contrast what we might call the >> perezhivanie in the learning moment. >> >> If we might accept Nuthall's findings that learning happens when the >> underlying materials are presented at least three times, that should be a >> replicable structure that could bear fruit. It should be possible to >> determine and trace the emotional attachment that prevails in successful >> concept development. >> >> How about: >> >> - Have a control for presentations with underlying material offered >> three times (delivered via online learning?) >> - Have a presentation with socially distant teacher presenting three >> times. >> - Have a presentation with socially distant peer presenting three >> times. >> >> >> Note the differences and similarities, as well as effectiveness and even >> how quickly a concept is absorbed and mastered by the learner. >> >> What is the flaw in that design as you see it? >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of David Kellogg >> *Sent:* Saturday, June 13, 2020 3:26 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> Annalisa: >> >> It's a great idea. But we are in the throes of "the dance" here in South >> Korea. Schools reopen. Then there's an outbreak. So the government closes >> schools again and we all go back into isolation for ten days. Then things >> reopen again, until the next outbreak. Even when schools are open, class >> size is greatly reduced, students are kept at least two meters apart and >> put in masks (we don't have those crazy hats that you see in China, but >> some schools use cubicles), and that would make it really hard to get peer >> teaching, much less collect data from peer teaching. >> >> We did do something like what you propose way back in 2007--we just >> looked at the difference between the way a teacher presented the task and >> the way that the task was represented to groups. >> >> Guk, I. and Kellogg, D. (2007). The ZPD and Whole Class Teaching: >> Teacher-led and Student-led Interactional Mediation in Tasks. Language >> Teaching Research 11,3 (2007); pp. 281?299 >> >> I suspect that if you read this study you will find it methodologically >> and even intellectually crude, particularly compared to what you propose, >> but for reasons I don't really understand it's the only thing we ever wrote >> that gets widely cited!) >> >> Phillip: >> >> Yes, ethnography would show precisely the kind of development we're >> interested in. But I think ethnography is better suited to studying >> stability than to studying crises. I get that crises are like anything >> else--they need to be highly contextured to be well textured. But because >> ethnography has a tendency to view the social and cultural and historical >> dimension exclusively through the language of the interpersonal, it's >> really hard to get genetic cross-sections that are broad enough and long >> enough to tell you how the system as a whole changes at "inflection points" >> (Joe Biden!) that are prepared for systematically precisely by those epochs >> we are naively thinking of as stable. (Ruqaiya Hasan's work was one of very >> few exceptions to this constraint....) >> >> For example. One of the most important responses to the crisis revealed >> by George Floyd's murder has been to argue that the protests are too easily >> hijacked as pretexts for violence (see, for example, Boris Johnson's recent >> remarks on the descecration of Winston Churchill's statue in Parliament >> Square in London). This assumes, weirdly, a widespread tendency towards >> unmotivated violence that I have never actually observed in any fellow >> human being. I am pretty sure that Boris Johnson could probably find >> someone to produce ethnographic evidence that it exists, but I am equally >> sure that he couldn't ever produce evidence that it is systemic. Without >> that evidence, there is no way to predict or explain the fire next time. >> >> Language stuff is not like this: every text is evidence of both the >> interpersonal and of what we are calling, non-redundantly, the >> socio-cultural. >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TmAYwTcFqnzEuLRdRsdUrETBcrLxlvD6IMUPNXsOyvZkSMbEW_dV6K6yz9JHbOGiPiXELg$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * >> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TmAYwTcFqnzEuLRdRsdUrETBcrLxlvD6IMUPNXsOyvZkSMbEW_dV6K6yz9JHbOHR4L1UMA$ >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 11:59 PM White, Phillip < >> Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: >> >> rather than a test, David, perhaps a rigorous ethnography along the lines >> of what Graham Nuthall did - >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://researched.org.uk/graham-nuthall-educational-research-at-its-best/__;!!Mih3wA!TmAYwTcFqnzEuLRdRsdUrETBcrLxlvD6IMUPNXsOyvZkSMbEW_dV6K6yz9JHbOHRpqKQ7Q$ >> >> Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best ? researchED >> >> Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best 26th February 2019 / in >> February 2019 / by Jan Tishauser. Professor Emeritus Graham Nuthall, an >> educational researcher from New Zealand, is credited with one of the >> longest series of studies of teaching and learning in the classroom that >> has ever been carried out. A pioneer in his field, his ... >> researched.org.uk >> >> >> >> it was highly complex, but clearly from his finding emotions play a key >> role in concept formation. >> >> he died about 16 years ago. and oddly enough his work is still little >> appreciated. >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz/Pedagogy-and-assessment/Pedagogical-leadership/The-cultural-myths-and-realities-of-teaching-and-learning__;!!Mih3wA!TmAYwTcFqnzEuLRdRsdUrETBcrLxlvD6IMUPNXsOyvZkSMbEW_dV6K6yz9JHbOE7HmCpSg$ >> >> The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning / Pedagogical >> leadership / Pedagogy and assessment / Home - Educational Leaders >> >> The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning. by Graham >> Nuthall. Download this complete document (PDF 149 kB) Help with PDF files >> Overview. Graham Nuthall was Emeritus Professor of Education at the >> University of Canterbury in Christchurch. >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz__;!!Mih3wA!TmAYwTcFqnzEuLRdRsdUrETBcrLxlvD6IMUPNXsOyvZkSMbEW_dV6K6yz9JHbOEvZS2PxQ$ >> >> >> Nuthall had participated in some of xmca conversation. >> >> also, Gerard Edelman's work, which was the focus of an xmca conversation >> some time ago, points out that initials perceptions are initially sorted >> into one of two values - in layman's terms, like or dislike. which is of >> course an emotional response. >> >> *Bright Air, Brilliant Fire: On the Matter of the Mind* (Basic Books, >> 1992, Reprint edition 1993). ISBN >> >> 0-465-00764-3 >> >> >> in short, there are many ways of exploring student emotions i'd consider >> to be more reliable that trustworthy than tests. >> >> phillip >> >> > -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TmAYwTcFqnzEuLRdRsdUrETBcrLxlvD6IMUPNXsOyvZkSMbEW_dV6K6yz9JHbOHtakEb4g$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200614/4ef6a662/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Jun 14 11:02:28 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 11:02:28 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Epigenetic byways Message-ID: An anonymous Maga dug this of his memory. It is what Peg Griffin referred to when sourcing the idea of an epigenetic byway. This way of thinking underlay the various re-medial methods we adopted in the study of children who have difficulty learning to read for meaning. Those papers can be found on one of the lchc sites, below, I am pretty sure. Thanks for your loooooong memory, Maga. mike -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!RMgU-9n8eQ2bDWoBD19zLvoE2ci_kw2BFJgcOB39OGp9YwtYELFuCtYh2RmjOdwmtaWy6w$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200614/a0e35cdd/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CreatingReconstitutingContexts.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 2912030 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200614/a0e35cdd/attachment-0001.pdf From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun Jun 14 13:49:06 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 05:49:06 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: <8F5F9567-66D4-475A-A732-186603E7F055@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, I got interested in the problem of imitation: that is, the problem of defining imitation in such a way that other forms of development more susceptible to creative imagination are included. So if you define a dramatic situation and then run through an example, you find that the group leaders will want to use the example rather than the definition (Vygotsky explains why this is so in Chapter 10 of Pedology of the Adolescent). That leads to what I would call habit formation or skill, Buhler's second level of behavior (where you get imitation but not innovation). So one way out of this was to present the product but not the actual process. For example, instead of presenting the whole dramatic situation as SS, CC, PP (set the scene with adverbials and prepositional phrases, create the characters with names and nouns, pose the problem with a few choice verbs) we just present the outcome (Four boys had an arm wrestling match. Here's the outcome in the form of a tournament tree. What will it look like if you have a tournament in your group?) In the former case, we get back a lot of adverbials and prep phrases, names and nouns and verbs. But in the latter? Well, we got a lot of shouting, but not much of it was in English....) "Bright Air, Brilliant Fire" is a synthesis; as Phillilp says, it's a good place to start. Before he wrote it, Edelman wrote a kind of Hegelian "trilogy"--a GENERAL work, a PARTICULAR one, and an INDIVIDUAL one. "Topobiology" was the general background to the theory of neuronal group selection (i.e. the general theory that GROUPS of neurons with a particular function are selected for in ontogenesis more or less the way that organs, species, and phyla are selected for in phylogenesis, mutatis mutandis). "Neural Darwinism" was particular--it took that "mutatis mutandis" out of the parentheses, and contrasted and complemented the theory of neuronal group selection with other strands of Darwinian thought. "Remembered Present" was individual--it accounts for the individual nature of consciousness by describing how neuronal groups do not imitate but instead integrate (re-entrant neurons rather than "mirrors"). Andy worries that Vygotsky's psychology is deterministic, and of course it is. To me this doesn't really pose a problem: I have a indefinite view of what determinism is (grammar is deterministic, but what it determines is indefinitely large). But what does pose a problem is the idea that at any one point in development there is a single function which determines the development of all the others (instinct at birth, perception in infancy, proto-speech at one, speech in early childhood, etc). Where do these single functions come from and how are they determined? If we see all the functions as the product of neuronal group selection and re-entrance (a.k.a. perezhivanie), the single function is simply one configuration of neuronal groups rather than another in a continuous chain of adaptation and exaptation. . David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SZdzyMBY-rAfnUqTnB6aV8-A_jyZr1Pr6UzP3KR3sUNMXm5NVZ1Y8PB-tEfpkuDgAlDP_g$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SZdzyMBY-rAfnUqTnB6aV8-A_jyZr1Pr6UzP3KR3sUNMXm5NVZ1Y8PB-tEfpkuAjTIkH_A$ On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 2:57 AM mike cole wrote: > Thanks, David. That seems just the right way to think about the process, a > re-presentation, a focus on the process, an event > occurring over time. Seems like this is part of what > microethnography provides, so long as we realize that the test > itself is a process operating on a different time scale, and taken as a > "thing" operating in what journalists are calling "real time" > these days. People like Bud Mehan and Aaron Cicourel were studying the > process of test taking "itself," a process that Ray McDermott > and David Roth pursued as part of our studies of ecological validity at > Rock U. I am not sure it got written up formally. I recall Ray saying in > frustration one > day after a dozen hours watching a professional tester administer a set of > tests to an 11 year old boy, "THe context is between their eyes! I can't > see it." > Exactly what a test is supposed to do , create a thing so you can measure > it. > > Now people seek to make the visible through analysis of fmri's. > Through a different glass, but foggily. > mike > > PS-- I suggest again that in thinking about these issues, Powers of Ten, > seems helpful to think with. Besides, its interesting in itself > even if my thinking is not! > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=powers*of*ten&oq=Powers*of*Ten&aqs=chrome.0.35i39j46j0l5j69i61.2991j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8__;KysrKw!!Mih3wA!SZdzyMBY-rAfnUqTnB6aV8-A_jyZr1Pr6UzP3KR3sUNMXm5NVZ1Y8PB-tEfpkuCfYhZ_PQ$ > > > > On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 9:49 AM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> David, Annalisa, Anthony, Martin, Phillip and the rest of cast of >> characters, >> I got lost in the details of the methodological maze you and Annalisa >> constructed until this turn of yours. Thanks for pulling it together. Mike >> isn?t the only one amused by the practice-what-you-teach lesson to >> yourself. Of course, I get up every day looking for these lessons to >> myself. I assume Anthony does as well. How could any 8th grade English >> teacher get through the day otherwise? Staying humble. HAS to be why he got >> through the little kerfufle with Martin so gracefully. I am impressed with >> the lot of you. I?ve been in the hospital and recuperating from a little >> bowel obstruction since Tuesday and only yesterday had a chance to read the >> chat dialog since the SBO hit me. It was jumble last night, but when I >> woke up and read this post, it all became clear. Ha! >> >> David, Would you please expand on your last paragraph on Edelman, >> Halliday and Vygotsky and how Edelman?s ?mirror? neurons ?offer a pretty >> clear way out of the problem?? Maybe re-present ?the problem?? >> Henry >> >> >> >> >> On Jun 14, 2020, at 12:43 AM, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> Annalisa and Mike: >> >> The Good Lord loves and rewards stubborn persistence, Annalisa. I am not >> sure kids do, though--will they want to sit through the same presentation >> three times? Or do you simply mean we use three different presentations so >> that we can randomize the order? Of course, "sputnik" didn't mean a >> satellite for Vygotsky--the first Sputniks were launched just before I was >> born, about twenty years after Vygotsky died. When I first translated >> Vygotsky, I thought a "sputnik" was a kind of sattelite God, Hermes to >> Zeus, Hanuman to Ram, Athena to Odysseus. But I notice that Russians use >> "sputnik" to just mean something like "companion", a fellow traveler, or a >> playmate. So instead of a kind of guardian angel, emotion functions as a >> bosom companion, growing up as the child grows. >> >> I have--as usual--expressed myself rather poorly, Mike. (It will amuse >> you greatly to learn that I am teaching Communication this term!) When I >> said "represent" I did mean re-present. I actually meant exactly what >> Annalisa is describing. The teacher presents the task (usually a dramatic >> situation of some kind) to a small group of "group leaders" and they do an >> example before the class begins. Those group leaders then return to their >> groups and present the task to the groups. We did video the results, but I >> thought the product wasn't nearly as interesting as analyzing the process. >> >> Phillip: Halliday thought that Edelman's view of intelligence was the >> real biological foundation of his linguistics. And Annalisa is right, it >> did have a lot to do with Edelman's theory of re-entrant >> ("mirror") neurons. Andy has some trouble with the determinism of Vygotsky; >> I have a rather different problem with his hierarchical ideas of how >> functions are organized in a system. Edelman's books offer a pretty clear >> way out of that problem! >> >> >> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 7:10 AM Annalisa Aguilar >> wrote: >> >>> David, >>> >>> My stubborn persistence tells me that there is a way to bring in the >>> dynamics of the pandemic crisis into your research design if we think about >>> it long enough. >>> >>> If emotion is the sputnik, as you reasonably hypothesize, then how can >>> you create opportunities for sputnik to launch? >>> >>> I maintain that this can be done with peer learning, because what counts >>> is the cultural connection a student has with a peer compared to that >>> cultural connection the student has with an instructor. Given in your >>> description of social distancing, isn't there a way to compare and contrast >>> learning that comes from "in person with social distancing" vis s vis >>> learning that comes from "online learning"? >>> >>> What you describe in your study is not what I was proposing. I was >>> proposing how a student learns from a peer presenting the object of >>> learning compared to the way a teacher might. And to use online vs in >>> person learning venues to compare and contrast what we might call the >>> perezhivanie in the learning moment. >>> >>> If we might accept Nuthall's findings that learning happens when the >>> underlying materials are presented at least three times, that should be a >>> replicable structure that could bear fruit. It should be possible to >>> determine and trace the emotional attachment that prevails in successful >>> concept development. >>> >>> How about: >>> >>> - Have a control for presentations with underlying material offered >>> three times (delivered via online learning?) >>> - Have a presentation with socially distant teacher presenting three >>> times. >>> - Have a presentation with socially distant peer presenting three >>> times. >>> >>> >>> Note the differences and similarities, as well as effectiveness and even >>> how quickly a concept is absorbed and mastered by the learner. >>> >>> What is the flaw in that design as you see it? >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of David Kellogg >>> *Sent:* Saturday, June 13, 2020 3:26 PM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> Annalisa: >>> >>> It's a great idea. But we are in the throes of "the dance" here in South >>> Korea. Schools reopen. Then there's an outbreak. So the government closes >>> schools again and we all go back into isolation for ten days. Then things >>> reopen again, until the next outbreak. Even when schools are open, class >>> size is greatly reduced, students are kept at least two meters apart and >>> put in masks (we don't have those crazy hats that you see in China, but >>> some schools use cubicles), and that would make it really hard to get peer >>> teaching, much less collect data from peer teaching. >>> >>> We did do something like what you propose way back in 2007--we just >>> looked at the difference between the way a teacher presented the task and >>> the way that the task was represented to groups. >>> >>> Guk, I. and Kellogg, D. (2007). The ZPD and Whole Class Teaching: >>> Teacher-led and Student-led Interactional Mediation in Tasks. Language >>> Teaching Research 11,3 (2007); pp. 281?299 >>> >>> I suspect that if you read this study you will find it methodologically >>> and even intellectually crude, particularly compared to what you propose, >>> but for reasons I don't really understand it's the only thing we ever wrote >>> that gets widely cited!) >>> >>> Phillip: >>> >>> Yes, ethnography would show precisely the kind of development we're >>> interested in. But I think ethnography is better suited to studying >>> stability than to studying crises. I get that crises are like anything >>> else--they need to be highly contextured to be well textured. But because >>> ethnography has a tendency to view the social and cultural and historical >>> dimension exclusively through the language of the interpersonal, it's >>> really hard to get genetic cross-sections that are broad enough and long >>> enough to tell you how the system as a whole changes at "inflection points" >>> (Joe Biden!) that are prepared for systematically precisely by those epochs >>> we are naively thinking of as stable. (Ruqaiya Hasan's work was one of very >>> few exceptions to this constraint....) >>> >>> For example. One of the most important responses to the crisis revealed >>> by George Floyd's murder has been to argue that the protests are too easily >>> hijacked as pretexts for violence (see, for example, Boris Johnson's recent >>> remarks on the descecration of Winston Churchill's statue in Parliament >>> Square in London). This assumes, weirdly, a widespread tendency towards >>> unmotivated violence that I have never actually observed in any fellow >>> human being. I am pretty sure that Boris Johnson could probably find >>> someone to produce ethnographic evidence that it exists, but I am equally >>> sure that he couldn't ever produce evidence that it is systemic. Without >>> that evidence, there is no way to predict or explain the fire next time. >>> >>> Language stuff is not like this: every text is evidence of both the >>> interpersonal and of what we are calling, non-redundantly, the >>> socio-cultural. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SZdzyMBY-rAfnUqTnB6aV8-A_jyZr1Pr6UzP3KR3sUNMXm5NVZ1Y8PB-tEfpkuDgAlDP_g$ >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* * Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SZdzyMBY-rAfnUqTnB6aV8-A_jyZr1Pr6UzP3KR3sUNMXm5NVZ1Y8PB-tEfpkuAjTIkH_A$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 11:59 PM White, Phillip < >>> Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: >>> >>> rather than a test, David, perhaps a rigorous ethnography along the >>> lines of what Graham Nuthall did - >>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://researched.org.uk/graham-nuthall-educational-research-at-its-best/__;!!Mih3wA!SZdzyMBY-rAfnUqTnB6aV8-A_jyZr1Pr6UzP3KR3sUNMXm5NVZ1Y8PB-tEfpkuDIPG8WGw$ >>> >>> Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best ? researchED >>> >>> Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best 26th February 2019 / in >>> February 2019 / by Jan Tishauser. Professor Emeritus Graham Nuthall, an >>> educational researcher from New Zealand, is credited with one of the >>> longest series of studies of teaching and learning in the classroom that >>> has ever been carried out. A pioneer in his field, his ... >>> researched.org.uk >>> >>> >>> >>> it was highly complex, but clearly from his finding emotions play a key >>> role in concept formation. >>> >>> he died about 16 years ago. and oddly enough his work is still little >>> appreciated. >>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz/Pedagogy-and-assessment/Pedagogical-leadership/The-cultural-myths-and-realities-of-teaching-and-learning__;!!Mih3wA!SZdzyMBY-rAfnUqTnB6aV8-A_jyZr1Pr6UzP3KR3sUNMXm5NVZ1Y8PB-tEfpkuD6jtER3g$ >>> >>> The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning / Pedagogical >>> leadership / Pedagogy and assessment / Home - Educational Leaders >>> >>> The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning. by Graham >>> Nuthall. Download this complete document (PDF 149 kB) Help with PDF files >>> Overview. Graham Nuthall was Emeritus Professor of Education at the >>> University of Canterbury in Christchurch. >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz__;!!Mih3wA!SZdzyMBY-rAfnUqTnB6aV8-A_jyZr1Pr6UzP3KR3sUNMXm5NVZ1Y8PB-tEfpkuAFvdxnKA$ >>> >>> >>> Nuthall had participated in some of xmca conversation. >>> >>> also, Gerard Edelman's work, which was the focus of an xmca conversation >>> some time ago, points out that initials perceptions are initially sorted >>> into one of two values - in layman's terms, like or dislike. which is of >>> course an emotional response. >>> >>> *Bright Air, Brilliant Fire: On the Matter of the Mind* (Basic Books, >>> 1992, Reprint edition 1993). ISBN >>> >>> 0-465-00764-3 >>> >>> >>> in short, there are many ways of exploring student emotions i'd consider >>> to be more reliable that trustworthy than tests. >>> >>> phillip >>> >>> >> > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!SZdzyMBY-rAfnUqTnB6aV8-A_jyZr1Pr6UzP3KR3sUNMXm5NVZ1Y8PB-tEfpkuCAlGYeDA$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200615/90b80050/attachment.html From john.crippsclark@deakin.edu.au Sun Jun 14 14:49:21 2020 From: john.crippsclark@deakin.edu.au (John Cripps Clark) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 21:49:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: On "The death of George Floyd". In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Harshad I think you are overcomplicating the issues and therefore missing the core https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2020/06/07/like-george-floyd-this-man-was-arrested-for-using-a-counterfeit-bill-but-says-white-privilege-saved-his-life/*5a5a42ad366f__;Iw!!Mih3wA!RVx2pd2QXvrvUTsWUDtzLn9Kc65VkCyF8ChuZRsWZdHTKwI94gjuq4rB5x8ile0rR6yY3g$ John From: on behalf of Harshad Dave Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Sunday, 14 June 2020 at 8:18 pm To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] On "The death of George Floyd". .An analysis of the event of unfortunate death of George Floyd The unfortunate death of Georg Floyd and subsequent break out of protest, agony and riots are on the head line attention of the people of most of the nations of the world, particularly in the USA and UK. I put my following observations and learning from the news/messages, debates on the internet and newspapers on the event. The issue has the following vital steps. 1. Floyd's past history and the last act of operating a fake currency note. 2. Police's actions, and one plus other associated officers? involvement in particular action in which Floyd lost his life. 3. People's agony spread of the news/video, protests followed, riots broke out, and events of looting and fire took place. 4. Government's actions against the police officers in phase manner. 5. Government's actions to restore the law and order. 6. The root source of the said fake currency bill. (Totally missing in news, debates and discussions.) If an event happens and a huge mass of the people gets aggravated due to the event, it is a most promising opportunity for the shopkeepers just harboring in the society. These shopkeepers are always present in any society and they ride on the situation created by such events. Here also, different shopkeepers have opened their shops to push their targets forward. These shopkeepers are the useless buggers with a target to create nuisance on opportunity and claim their benefit behind the curtain to divert and calm down the flood of emotions erupted in a huge mass of population that gets emerged by such unfortunate events. The flooding hysteria of agony and outburst of hatred in people on such events always provides the required free resource of energy to the shopkeepers to realize their targets. They always regulate and control the flood of agony providing sensitive guidelines, sending hidden representatives among the directionless agonized mass of the people. The guide lines are well designed by the shopkeepers but it has nothing to do with the events but to exert pressure on the ruling crook to sit on the table behind the curtain to negotiate a deal on their demand. The shopkeepers will negotiate and secure their benefits against their services and compliance to cooperate with ruling crooks by terminating their leadership and stopping to provide sensitive guidelines to the mass. At the same time they render services to slowly divert them to calm down the agitation and ruling crook pays them in terms of benefits negotiated on a table behind the curtain. There is nothing new in it because rulers of the capitalistic society in its latest socio economic formation have no alternative but to hire services of low moral people (here the shopkeepers) for their survival on the ruling seat. It is the reason we find wealth under the command of low moral people in capitalist society. If people of present society believe that hysteria and agony of their emotion will sort out the issue, they are mistaken. Such spirit will get exploited by opportunistic people only. A mass mobilization with agony and hatred on any event will never return with any improvement. It requires hard home work during the time (period) before such events take place. This homework might only give insight to reveal the root cause of the same. Every person in the mass of people that participated the agitation and shared his/her valuable time, energy, perhaps blood and tears should ask a question to himself/herself, ?Where did he/she devote their time and which activities he/she carried out during the last few months/years before the event took place?? ?Did the activities that were carried out and time was devoted have real and practical concern with the demand they present today after the happening of the event?? If people of any nation with a social system of socio economic formation of 21st century believe that ?Making living of my dream is my concern but how this society and its productive system functions is neither my look out nor it is a subject of interest.? Presence of such people does not harm them only but contracts an invisible harm to the social system also. They are not aware that they are part of the productive force of this society. If they do not want to take pain and bother to audit the social functioning by their knowledge, there will be many social diseases and ?cropping up of the shopkeepers? is one of them. Even an animal that is careless to detect a change in smell, abnormal sound or movement around it pays hard for it. We established a human society and developed it but it never gives relief from the liability of keeping us alert and watchful on the happenings and functioning of the society. If we stand on a belief that it is not our concern then the death of Floyd gives a message ?No it is your concern.? Harshad Dave [Email: hhdave15@gamil.com] Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for the named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise the sender by return email or telephone. Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments are error or virus free. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200614/61b8c79e/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun Jun 14 17:43:58 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 09:43:58 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: <8F5F9567-66D4-475A-A732-186603E7F055@gmail.com> Message-ID: Mike: The narrator is Philip Morrison, one of the greatest and earliest popularizers of modern physics. He was a polio survivor: one of the men who loaded the atomic bomb onto the Enola Gay, and also a convinced, committed, and lifelong red. The president of Columbia refused to fire him, though, and he rode out the McCarthyite storm partly on the basis of his contribution to the war effort, My father got to know him through the Manhattan project, and he became Dad's PhD supervisor. "Paul Kellogg", he commented on the first draft, "does not like easy problems." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SvVF4dh2I4OYPktDfG2VhUBIdbLQLcfO2G1TQp6qUk0bL6bQoU3WbxjyhI49C92L2iroUw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SvVF4dh2I4OYPktDfG2VhUBIdbLQLcfO2G1TQp6qUk0bL6bQoU3WbxjyhI49C92_ZeTbGQ$ On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 2:57 AM mike cole wrote: > Thanks, David. That seems just the right way to think about the process, a > re-presentation, a focus on the process, an event > occurring over time. Seems like this is part of what > microethnography provides, so long as we realize that the test > itself is a process operating on a different time scale, and taken as a > "thing" operating in what journalists are calling "real time" > these days. People like Bud Mehan and Aaron Cicourel were studying the > process of test taking "itself," a process that Ray McDermott > and David Roth pursued as part of our studies of ecological validity at > Rock U. I am not sure it got written up formally. I recall Ray saying in > frustration one > day after a dozen hours watching a professional tester administer a set of > tests to an 11 year old boy, "THe context is between their eyes! I can't > see it." > Exactly what a test is supposed to do , create a thing so you can measure > it. > > Now people seek to make the visible through analysis of fmri's. > Through a different glass, but foggily. > mike > > PS-- I suggest again that in thinking about these issues, Powers of Ten, > seems helpful to think with. Besides, its interesting in itself > even if my thinking is not! > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=powers*of*ten&oq=Powers*of*Ten&aqs=chrome.0.35i39j46j0l5j69i61.2991j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8__;KysrKw!!Mih3wA!SvVF4dh2I4OYPktDfG2VhUBIdbLQLcfO2G1TQp6qUk0bL6bQoU3WbxjyhI49C901HvUhMg$ > > > > On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 9:49 AM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> David, Annalisa, Anthony, Martin, Phillip and the rest of cast of >> characters, >> I got lost in the details of the methodological maze you and Annalisa >> constructed until this turn of yours. Thanks for pulling it together. Mike >> isn?t the only one amused by the practice-what-you-teach lesson to >> yourself. Of course, I get up every day looking for these lessons to >> myself. I assume Anthony does as well. How could any 8th grade English >> teacher get through the day otherwise? Staying humble. HAS to be why he got >> through the little kerfufle with Martin so gracefully. I am impressed with >> the lot of you. I?ve been in the hospital and recuperating from a little >> bowel obstruction since Tuesday and only yesterday had a chance to read the >> chat dialog since the SBO hit me. It was jumble last night, but when I >> woke up and read this post, it all became clear. Ha! >> >> David, Would you please expand on your last paragraph on Edelman, >> Halliday and Vygotsky and how Edelman?s ?mirror? neurons ?offer a pretty >> clear way out of the problem?? Maybe re-present ?the problem?? >> Henry >> >> >> >> >> On Jun 14, 2020, at 12:43 AM, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> Annalisa and Mike: >> >> The Good Lord loves and rewards stubborn persistence, Annalisa. I am not >> sure kids do, though--will they want to sit through the same presentation >> three times? Or do you simply mean we use three different presentations so >> that we can randomize the order? Of course, "sputnik" didn't mean a >> satellite for Vygotsky--the first Sputniks were launched just before I was >> born, about twenty years after Vygotsky died. When I first translated >> Vygotsky, I thought a "sputnik" was a kind of sattelite God, Hermes to >> Zeus, Hanuman to Ram, Athena to Odysseus. But I notice that Russians use >> "sputnik" to just mean something like "companion", a fellow traveler, or a >> playmate. So instead of a kind of guardian angel, emotion functions as a >> bosom companion, growing up as the child grows. >> >> I have--as usual--expressed myself rather poorly, Mike. (It will amuse >> you greatly to learn that I am teaching Communication this term!) When I >> said "represent" I did mean re-present. I actually meant exactly what >> Annalisa is describing. The teacher presents the task (usually a dramatic >> situation of some kind) to a small group of "group leaders" and they do an >> example before the class begins. Those group leaders then return to their >> groups and present the task to the groups. We did video the results, but I >> thought the product wasn't nearly as interesting as analyzing the process. >> >> Phillip: Halliday thought that Edelman's view of intelligence was the >> real biological foundation of his linguistics. And Annalisa is right, it >> did have a lot to do with Edelman's theory of re-entrant >> ("mirror") neurons. Andy has some trouble with the determinism of Vygotsky; >> I have a rather different problem with his hierarchical ideas of how >> functions are organized in a system. Edelman's books offer a pretty clear >> way out of that problem! >> >> >> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 7:10 AM Annalisa Aguilar >> wrote: >> >>> David, >>> >>> My stubborn persistence tells me that there is a way to bring in the >>> dynamics of the pandemic crisis into your research design if we think about >>> it long enough. >>> >>> If emotion is the sputnik, as you reasonably hypothesize, then how can >>> you create opportunities for sputnik to launch? >>> >>> I maintain that this can be done with peer learning, because what counts >>> is the cultural connection a student has with a peer compared to that >>> cultural connection the student has with an instructor. Given in your >>> description of social distancing, isn't there a way to compare and contrast >>> learning that comes from "in person with social distancing" vis s vis >>> learning that comes from "online learning"? >>> >>> What you describe in your study is not what I was proposing. I was >>> proposing how a student learns from a peer presenting the object of >>> learning compared to the way a teacher might. And to use online vs in >>> person learning venues to compare and contrast what we might call the >>> perezhivanie in the learning moment. >>> >>> If we might accept Nuthall's findings that learning happens when the >>> underlying materials are presented at least three times, that should be a >>> replicable structure that could bear fruit. It should be possible to >>> determine and trace the emotional attachment that prevails in successful >>> concept development. >>> >>> How about: >>> >>> - Have a control for presentations with underlying material offered >>> three times (delivered via online learning?) >>> - Have a presentation with socially distant teacher presenting three >>> times. >>> - Have a presentation with socially distant peer presenting three >>> times. >>> >>> >>> Note the differences and similarities, as well as effectiveness and even >>> how quickly a concept is absorbed and mastered by the learner. >>> >>> What is the flaw in that design as you see it? >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of David Kellogg >>> *Sent:* Saturday, June 13, 2020 3:26 PM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> Annalisa: >>> >>> It's a great idea. But we are in the throes of "the dance" here in South >>> Korea. Schools reopen. Then there's an outbreak. So the government closes >>> schools again and we all go back into isolation for ten days. Then things >>> reopen again, until the next outbreak. Even when schools are open, class >>> size is greatly reduced, students are kept at least two meters apart and >>> put in masks (we don't have those crazy hats that you see in China, but >>> some schools use cubicles), and that would make it really hard to get peer >>> teaching, much less collect data from peer teaching. >>> >>> We did do something like what you propose way back in 2007--we just >>> looked at the difference between the way a teacher presented the task and >>> the way that the task was represented to groups. >>> >>> Guk, I. and Kellogg, D. (2007). The ZPD and Whole Class Teaching: >>> Teacher-led and Student-led Interactional Mediation in Tasks. Language >>> Teaching Research 11,3 (2007); pp. 281?299 >>> >>> I suspect that if you read this study you will find it methodologically >>> and even intellectually crude, particularly compared to what you propose, >>> but for reasons I don't really understand it's the only thing we ever wrote >>> that gets widely cited!) >>> >>> Phillip: >>> >>> Yes, ethnography would show precisely the kind of development we're >>> interested in. But I think ethnography is better suited to studying >>> stability than to studying crises. I get that crises are like anything >>> else--they need to be highly contextured to be well textured. But because >>> ethnography has a tendency to view the social and cultural and historical >>> dimension exclusively through the language of the interpersonal, it's >>> really hard to get genetic cross-sections that are broad enough and long >>> enough to tell you how the system as a whole changes at "inflection points" >>> (Joe Biden!) that are prepared for systematically precisely by those epochs >>> we are naively thinking of as stable. (Ruqaiya Hasan's work was one of very >>> few exceptions to this constraint....) >>> >>> For example. One of the most important responses to the crisis revealed >>> by George Floyd's murder has been to argue that the protests are too easily >>> hijacked as pretexts for violence (see, for example, Boris Johnson's recent >>> remarks on the descecration of Winston Churchill's statue in Parliament >>> Square in London). This assumes, weirdly, a widespread tendency towards >>> unmotivated violence that I have never actually observed in any fellow >>> human being. I am pretty sure that Boris Johnson could probably find >>> someone to produce ethnographic evidence that it exists, but I am equally >>> sure that he couldn't ever produce evidence that it is systemic. Without >>> that evidence, there is no way to predict or explain the fire next time. >>> >>> Language stuff is not like this: every text is evidence of both the >>> interpersonal and of what we are calling, non-redundantly, the >>> socio-cultural. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SvVF4dh2I4OYPktDfG2VhUBIdbLQLcfO2G1TQp6qUk0bL6bQoU3WbxjyhI49C92L2iroUw$ >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* * Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SvVF4dh2I4OYPktDfG2VhUBIdbLQLcfO2G1TQp6qUk0bL6bQoU3WbxjyhI49C92_ZeTbGQ$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 11:59 PM White, Phillip < >>> Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: >>> >>> rather than a test, David, perhaps a rigorous ethnography along the >>> lines of what Graham Nuthall did - >>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://researched.org.uk/graham-nuthall-educational-research-at-its-best/__;!!Mih3wA!SvVF4dh2I4OYPktDfG2VhUBIdbLQLcfO2G1TQp6qUk0bL6bQoU3WbxjyhI49C90ybgkMJA$ >>> >>> Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best ? researchED >>> >>> Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best 26th February 2019 / in >>> February 2019 / by Jan Tishauser. Professor Emeritus Graham Nuthall, an >>> educational researcher from New Zealand, is credited with one of the >>> longest series of studies of teaching and learning in the classroom that >>> has ever been carried out. A pioneer in his field, his ... >>> researched.org.uk >>> >>> >>> >>> it was highly complex, but clearly from his finding emotions play a key >>> role in concept formation. >>> >>> he died about 16 years ago. and oddly enough his work is still little >>> appreciated. >>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz/Pedagogy-and-assessment/Pedagogical-leadership/The-cultural-myths-and-realities-of-teaching-and-learning__;!!Mih3wA!SvVF4dh2I4OYPktDfG2VhUBIdbLQLcfO2G1TQp6qUk0bL6bQoU3WbxjyhI49C93LebamaQ$ >>> >>> The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning / Pedagogical >>> leadership / Pedagogy and assessment / Home - Educational Leaders >>> >>> The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning. by Graham >>> Nuthall. Download this complete document (PDF 149 kB) Help with PDF files >>> Overview. Graham Nuthall was Emeritus Professor of Education at the >>> University of Canterbury in Christchurch. >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz__;!!Mih3wA!SvVF4dh2I4OYPktDfG2VhUBIdbLQLcfO2G1TQp6qUk0bL6bQoU3WbxjyhI49C91SwJe6Hw$ >>> >>> >>> Nuthall had participated in some of xmca conversation. >>> >>> also, Gerard Edelman's work, which was the focus of an xmca conversation >>> some time ago, points out that initials perceptions are initially sorted >>> into one of two values - in layman's terms, like or dislike. which is of >>> course an emotional response. >>> >>> *Bright Air, Brilliant Fire: On the Matter of the Mind* (Basic Books, >>> 1992, Reprint edition 1993). ISBN >>> >>> 0-465-00764-3 >>> >>> >>> in short, there are many ways of exploring student emotions i'd consider >>> to be more reliable that trustworthy than tests. >>> >>> phillip >>> >>> >> > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!SvVF4dh2I4OYPktDfG2VhUBIdbLQLcfO2G1TQp6qUk0bL6bQoU3WbxjyhI49C92sr4-5sg$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200615/505d19cc/attachment.html From laure.kloetzer@gmail.com Mon Jun 15 00:45:18 2020 From: laure.kloetzer@gmail.com (Laure Kloetzer) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 09:45:18 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] PhD public defense: Gail Womersley - June 26 2020, 14h, Geneva time Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Following the excellent Yrj?'s inittiative to announce Jaana's PhD thesis public defense, which gave some of us the nice opportunity to follow this exciting event from a distance last Friday, I am happy to announce the public defense of Gail Womersley's PhD thesis in psychology, called: *A sociocultural exploration of trauma among refugee victims of torture * The examinators are Prof. Colette Daiute (CUNY, USA), Prof. Manolis Dafermos (University of Crete, Greece) and Dr Boris Drozdek (De Hemisfeer, The Netherlands). Assistant Professor Laure Kloetzer (University of Neuch?tel, Switzerland) has supervised the thesis. Dr Mihaela Nedelcu (University of Neuch?tel) will serve as the Chair of the defense. The defense (in English) takes place on Friday, 26th June 2020 at *2 pm, Geneva time*. The examination can be followed through a CISCO Webex link, please see the link below: rejoindre la r?union Best regards, Laure Kloetzer CISCO Webex invitation for Gail Womersley's PhD public defense: Num?ro de la r?union (code d?acc?s) : 163 883 7074 Mot de passe de la r?union : WGiumPSe888 vendredi 26 juin 2020 14:00 | (UTC+02:00) Bruxelles, Copenhague, Madrid, Paris | 2 h 30 min. rejoindre la r?union -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200615/fddddabb/attachment.html From Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch Mon Jun 15 01:27:02 2020 From: Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch (PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 08:27:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: PhD public defense: Gail Womersley - June 26 2020, 14h, Geneva time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <38D6F106-1758-430F-95BB-498C4D2BA6B4@unine.ch> Bravo!!!! Amiti?s Anne-Nelly Envoy? de mon iPhone Le 15 juin 2020 ? 09:47, Laure Kloetzer a ?crit : ? Dear colleagues, Following the excellent Yrj?'s inittiative to announce Jaana's PhD thesis public defense, which gave some of us the nice opportunity to follow this exciting event from a distance last Friday, I am happy to announce the public defense of Gail Womersley's PhD thesis in psychology, called: A sociocultural exploration of trauma among refugee victims of torture The examinators are Prof. Colette Daiute (CUNY, USA), Prof. Manolis Dafermos (University of Crete, Greece) and Dr Boris Drozdek (De Hemisfeer, The Netherlands). Assistant Professor Laure Kloetzer (University of Neuch?tel, Switzerland) has supervised the thesis. Dr Mihaela Nedelcu (University of Neuch?tel) will serve as the Chair of the defense. The defense (in English) takes place on Friday, 26th June 2020 at 2 pm, Geneva time. The examination can be followed through a CISCO Webex link, please see the link below: rejoindre la r?union Best regards, Laure Kloetzer CISCO Webex invitation for Gail Womersley's PhD public defense: Num?ro de la r?union (code d?acc?s) : 163 883 7074 Mot de passe de la r?union : WGiumPSe888 vendredi 26 juin 2020 14:00 | (UTC+02:00) Bruxelles, Copenhague, Madrid, Paris | 2 h 30 min. rejoindre la r?union -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200615/db25f0e2/attachment.html From kplakits@gmail.com Mon Jun 15 01:50:12 2020 From: kplakits@gmail.com (Katerina Plakitsi) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 11:50:12 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: PhD public defense: Gail Womersley - June 26 2020, 14h, Geneva time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Congrats!!! ???? ???, 15 ???? 2020 ???? 10:47 ? ??????? Laure Kloetzer < laure.kloetzer@gmail.com> ??????: > Dear colleagues, > > Following the excellent Yrj?'s inittiative to announce Jaana's PhD thesis > public defense, which gave some of us the nice opportunity to follow this > exciting event from a distance last Friday, I am happy to announce the > public defense of Gail Womersley's PhD thesis in psychology, called: > > > *A sociocultural exploration of trauma among refugee victims of torture * > > The examinators are Prof. Colette Daiute (CUNY, USA), Prof. Manolis > Dafermos (University of Crete, Greece) and Dr Boris Drozdek (De Hemisfeer, > The Netherlands). Assistant Professor Laure Kloetzer (University of > Neuch?tel, Switzerland) has supervised the thesis. Dr Mihaela Nedelcu > (University of Neuch?tel) will serve as the Chair of the defense. > > The defense (in English) takes place on Friday, 26th June 2020 at *2 pm, > Geneva time*. The examination can be followed through a CISCO Webex link, > please see the link below: > rejoindre la r?union > > > Best regards, > > Laure Kloetzer > > > CISCO Webex invitation for Gail Womersley's PhD public defense: > Num?ro de la r?union (code d?acc?s) : 163 883 7074 > Mot de passe de la r?union : WGiumPSe888 > vendredi 26 juin 2020 > 14:00 | (UTC+02:00) Bruxelles, Copenhague, Madrid, Paris | 2 h 30 min. > rejoindre la r?union > > -- ................................................................................................................................................................................................ Katerina Plakitsi Professor in Science Education President of the International Society of Sociocultural and Activity Research [ISCAR] Head of the Dept. of Early Childhood Education, School of Education, University of Ioannina, Greece *tel. +302651005771* *fax. +302651005842* *mobile.phone +306972898463* *Skype name: katerina.plakitsi3* https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.iscar.org/__;!!Mih3wA!RCrUfgLdlpXSmLjIhpF9oO7C6M-O615IHylxn0eIc3zmKzxCVavs-xkIMBcVgOUOhhgK4g$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://ecedu.uoi.gr/index.php/department/head*english__;Iw!!Mih3wA!RCrUfgLdlpXSmLjIhpF9oO7C6M-O615IHylxn0eIc3zmKzxCVavs-xkIMBcVgOVWYjIMaQ$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.epoque-project.eu__;!!Mih3wA!RCrUfgLdlpXSmLjIhpF9oO7C6M-O615IHylxn0eIc3zmKzxCVavs-xkIMBcVgOXX8eKcsQ$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://bdfprojects.wixsite.com/mindset__;!!Mih3wA!RCrUfgLdlpXSmLjIhpF9oO7C6M-O615IHylxn0eIc3zmKzxCVavs-xkIMBcVgOV58DM3GQ$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.lib.uoi.gr/serp__;!!Mih3wA!RCrUfgLdlpXSmLjIhpF9oO7C6M-O615IHylxn0eIc3zmKzxCVavs-xkIMBcVgOUywt9n3g$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isZAbefnRmo&t=7s__;!!Mih3wA!RCrUfgLdlpXSmLjIhpF9oO7C6M-O615IHylxn0eIc3zmKzxCVavs-xkIMBcVgOXDuXCAIA$ Other: Director of the Lab "Didactics of Maths and Science & Education for Sustainability" Coordinator @Formal and Informal Science Education [@FISE] researching group Board member of the Institute of Humanities and Social Sciences of the University of Ioannina Researching Center Board member of the National Center of Teachers Training Editor in Chief of the journal Science Education: Research and Praxis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200615/ab64945c/attachment.html From yrjo.engestrom@helsinki.fi Mon Jun 15 05:38:02 2020 From: yrjo.engestrom@helsinki.fi (=?utf-8?B?RW5nZXN0csO2bSwgWXJqw7YgSCBN?=) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 12:38:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: PhD public defense: Gail Womersley - June 26 2020, 14h, Geneva time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <91F9669A-E1A3-4C1E-B697-8F7A2C00E277@ad.helsinki.fi> Dear Katerina and Laure, many thanks for the announcement. This will be very interesting! Take good care, Yrj? Engestr?m On 15 Jun 2020, at 11.50, Katerina Plakitsi > wrote: Congrats!!! ???? ???, 15 ???? 2020 ???? 10:47 ? ??????? Laure Kloetzer > ??????: Dear colleagues, Following the excellent Yrj?'s inittiative to announce Jaana's PhD thesis public defense, which gave some of us the nice opportunity to follow this exciting event from a distance last Friday, I am happy to announce the public defense of Gail Womersley's PhD thesis in psychology, called: A sociocultural exploration of trauma among refugee victims of torture The examinators are Prof. Colette Daiute (CUNY, USA), Prof. Manolis Dafermos (University of Crete, Greece) and Dr Boris Drozdek (De Hemisfeer, The Netherlands). Assistant Professor Laure Kloetzer (University of Neuch?tel, Switzerland) has supervised the thesis. Dr Mihaela Nedelcu (University of Neuch?tel) will serve as the Chair of the defense. The defense (in English) takes place on Friday, 26th June 2020 at 2 pm, Geneva time. The examination can be followed through a CISCO Webex link, please see the link below: rejoindre la r?union Best regards, Laure Kloetzer CISCO Webex invitation for Gail Womersley's PhD public defense: Num?ro de la r?union (code d?acc?s) : 163 883 7074 Mot de passe de la r?union : WGiumPSe888 vendredi 26 juin 2020 14:00 | (UTC+02:00) Bruxelles, Copenhague, Madrid, Paris | 2 h 30 min. rejoindre la r?union -- ................................................................................................................................................................................................ Katerina Plakitsi Professor in Science Education President of the International Society of Sociocultural and Activity Research [ISCAR] Head of the Dept. of Early Childhood Education, School of Education, University of Ioannina, Greece tel. +302651005771 fax. +302651005842 mobile.phone +306972898463 Skype name: katerina.plakitsi3 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.iscar.org/__;!!Mih3wA!Wwhv2XKxOqvWE-ln9QTSibUF7myVKvqKWxK27d8-4gkb66438t5MgAO0hZUj0OKu5R2b5w$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://ecedu.uoi.gr/index.php/department/head*english__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Wwhv2XKxOqvWE-ln9QTSibUF7myVKvqKWxK27d8-4gkb66438t5MgAO0hZUj0OKNJqBwkA$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.epoque-project.eu__;!!Mih3wA!Wwhv2XKxOqvWE-ln9QTSibUF7myVKvqKWxK27d8-4gkb66438t5MgAO0hZUj0OL4IvYj7g$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://bdfprojects.wixsite.com/mindset__;!!Mih3wA!Wwhv2XKxOqvWE-ln9QTSibUF7myVKvqKWxK27d8-4gkb66438t5MgAO0hZUj0OIt4qxWTw$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.lib.uoi.gr/serp__;!!Mih3wA!Wwhv2XKxOqvWE-ln9QTSibUF7myVKvqKWxK27d8-4gkb66438t5MgAO0hZUj0OK8IRUn6g$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isZAbefnRmo&t=7s__;!!Mih3wA!Wwhv2XKxOqvWE-ln9QTSibUF7myVKvqKWxK27d8-4gkb66438t5MgAO0hZUj0OKp51OKhw$ Other: Director of the Lab "Didactics of Maths and Science & Education for Sustainability" Coordinator @Formal and Informal Science Education [@FISE] researching group Board member of the Institute of Humanities and Social Sciences of the University of Ioannina Researching Center Board member of the National Center of Teachers Training Editor in Chief of the journal Science Education: Research and Praxis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200615/0ad5fa13/attachment.html From kplakits@gmail.com Mon Jun 15 08:21:45 2020 From: kplakits@gmail.com (Katerina Plakitsi) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 18:21:45 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: PhD public defense: Gail Womersley - June 26 2020, 14h, Geneva time In-Reply-To: <91F9669A-E1A3-4C1E-B697-8F7A2C00E277@ad.helsinki.fi> References: <91F9669A-E1A3-4C1E-B697-8F7A2C00E277@ad.helsinki.fi> Message-ID: You are all very welcome ? ???? ???, 15 ???? 2020 ???? 15:38 ? ??????? Engestr?m, Yrj? H M < yrjo.engestrom@helsinki.fi> ??????: > Dear Katerina and Laure, many thanks for the announcement. This will be > very interesting! > > Take good care, > > Yrj? Engestr?m > > > > On 15 Jun 2020, at 11.50, Katerina Plakitsi wrote: > > Congrats!!! > > ???? ???, 15 ???? 2020 ???? 10:47 ? ??????? Laure Kloetzer < > laure.kloetzer@gmail.com> ??????: > >> Dear colleagues, >> >> Following the excellent Yrj?'s inittiative to announce Jaana's PhD thesis >> public defense, which gave some of us the nice opportunity to follow this >> exciting event from a distance last Friday, I am happy to announce the >> public defense of Gail Womersley's PhD thesis in psychology, called: >> >> *A sociocultural exploration of trauma among refugee victims of >> torture * >> >> The examinators are Prof. Colette Daiute (CUNY, USA), Prof. Manolis >> Dafermos (University of Crete, Greece) and Dr Boris Drozdek (De Hemisfeer, >> The Netherlands). Assistant Professor Laure Kloetzer (University of >> Neuch?tel, Switzerland) has supervised the thesis. Dr Mihaela Nedelcu >> (University of Neuch?tel) will serve as the Chair of the defense. >> >> The defense (in English) takes place on Friday, 26th June 2020 at *2 pm, >> Geneva time*. The examination can be followed through a CISCO Webex >> link, please see the link below: >> rejoindre la r?union >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Laure Kloetzer >> >> >> CISCO Webex invitation for Gail Womersley's PhD public defense: >> Num?ro de la r?union (code d?acc?s) : 163 883 7074 >> Mot de passe de la r?union : WGiumPSe888 >> vendredi 26 juin 2020 >> 14:00 | (UTC+02:00) Bruxelles, Copenhague, Madrid, Paris | 2 h 30 min. >> rejoindre la r?union >> >> > -- > > > ................................................................................................................................................................................................ > Katerina Plakitsi > Professor in Science Education > President of the International Society of Sociocultural and Activity > Research [ISCAR] > Head of the Dept. of Early Childhood Education, School of Education, University > of Ioannina, Greece > *tel. +302651005771* > *fax. +302651005842* > *mobile.phone +306972898463* > *Skype name: katerina.plakitsi3* > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.iscar.org/__;!!Mih3wA!WLS5eXkFGy9Ki5aMfLuGq1jdHM7qOJfYTA0uYMSvoH2ymWQ8df9B3p7nJ7ZYpwL_bgdWbQ$ > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://ecedu.uoi.gr/index.php/department/head*english__;Iw!!Mih3wA!WLS5eXkFGy9Ki5aMfLuGq1jdHM7qOJfYTA0uYMSvoH2ymWQ8df9B3p7nJ7ZYpwJk0l0Org$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.epoque-project.eu__;!!Mih3wA!WLS5eXkFGy9Ki5aMfLuGq1jdHM7qOJfYTA0uYMSvoH2ymWQ8df9B3p7nJ7ZYpwIVAhe3-w$ > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://bdfprojects.wixsite.com/mindset__;!!Mih3wA!WLS5eXkFGy9Ki5aMfLuGq1jdHM7qOJfYTA0uYMSvoH2ymWQ8df9B3p7nJ7ZYpwLuqwqF8Q$ > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.lib.uoi.gr/serp__;!!Mih3wA!WLS5eXkFGy9Ki5aMfLuGq1jdHM7qOJfYTA0uYMSvoH2ymWQ8df9B3p7nJ7ZYpwKgmAQMxw$ > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isZAbefnRmo&t=7s__;!!Mih3wA!WLS5eXkFGy9Ki5aMfLuGq1jdHM7qOJfYTA0uYMSvoH2ymWQ8df9B3p7nJ7ZYpwLCw4LwzA$ > > > Other: > Director of the Lab "Didactics of Maths and Science & Education for > Sustainability" > Coordinator @Formal and Informal Science Education [@FISE] researching > group > Board member of the Institute of Humanities and Social Sciences of the > University of Ioannina Researching Center > Board member of the National Center of Teachers Training > Editor in Chief of the journal Science Education: Research and Praxis > > > > > > > > -- ................................................................................................................................................................................................ Katerina Plakitsi Professor in Science Education President of the International Society of Sociocultural and Activity Research [ISCAR] Head of the Dept. of Early Childhood Education, School of Education, University of Ioannina, Greece *tel. +302651005771* *fax. +302651005842* *mobile.phone +306972898463* *Skype name: katerina.plakitsi3* https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.iscar.org/__;!!Mih3wA!WLS5eXkFGy9Ki5aMfLuGq1jdHM7qOJfYTA0uYMSvoH2ymWQ8df9B3p7nJ7ZYpwL_bgdWbQ$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://ecedu.uoi.gr/index.php/department/head*english__;Iw!!Mih3wA!WLS5eXkFGy9Ki5aMfLuGq1jdHM7qOJfYTA0uYMSvoH2ymWQ8df9B3p7nJ7ZYpwJk0l0Org$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.epoque-project.eu__;!!Mih3wA!WLS5eXkFGy9Ki5aMfLuGq1jdHM7qOJfYTA0uYMSvoH2ymWQ8df9B3p7nJ7ZYpwIVAhe3-w$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://bdfprojects.wixsite.com/mindset__;!!Mih3wA!WLS5eXkFGy9Ki5aMfLuGq1jdHM7qOJfYTA0uYMSvoH2ymWQ8df9B3p7nJ7ZYpwLuqwqF8Q$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.lib.uoi.gr/serp__;!!Mih3wA!WLS5eXkFGy9Ki5aMfLuGq1jdHM7qOJfYTA0uYMSvoH2ymWQ8df9B3p7nJ7ZYpwKgmAQMxw$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isZAbefnRmo&t=7s__;!!Mih3wA!WLS5eXkFGy9Ki5aMfLuGq1jdHM7qOJfYTA0uYMSvoH2ymWQ8df9B3p7nJ7ZYpwLCw4LwzA$ Other: Director of the Lab "Didactics of Maths and Science & Education for Sustainability" Coordinator @Formal and Informal Science Education [@FISE] researching group Board member of the Institute of Humanities and Social Sciences of the University of Ioannina Researching Center Board member of the National Center of Teachers Training Editor in Chief of the journal Science Education: Research and Praxis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200615/2492bae8/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Jun 15 09:50:59 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 09:50:59 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [chdseminar-L] June 27 - KIBM Symposium and INC Retreat (virtual event) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Edelman's Heirs Some clearly relevant topics mike ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Shin, Janet Date: Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 8:02 AM Subject: [chdseminar-L] June 27 - KIBM Symposium and INC Retreat (virtual event) To: Shin, Janet *Please join us for the following virtual event:* *KIBM Symposium on Innovative Research and INC Cognitive Neuroscience Retreat* * featuring keynote speaker Joshua Gordon, Director of the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) Saturday, June 27 9:40am to 4:30pm* This is a virtual event held via Zoom. You will receive a confirmation email with a link to the meeting after you register. Registration: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://kibminc2020.eventbrite.com__;!!Mih3wA!QOsWqvseu9y5BqmqvRpgTx8shdq1x7wrrjZDnHSlj38iyh1dDwcUArhhs_vbBxX8eDx-0A$ Additional Information: https://kibm.ucsd.edu/event/15th-annual-kibm-symposium-innovative-research-0 -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QOsWqvseu9y5BqmqvRpgTx8shdq1x7wrrjZDnHSlj38iyh1dDwcUArhhs_vbBxWsnMAMvA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200615/143eabad/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 205084 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200615/143eabad/attachment.png From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Tue Jun 16 08:34:01 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:34:01 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] A contribution of value, I hope Message-ID: In our 8th grade classroom, we have used Burke's (1941) "parlor" metaphor to support work on literary themes, argumentation, media analysis, role-playing, and class discussion: "Imagine that you enter a parlor. You come late. When you arrive, others > have long preceded you, and they are engaged in a heated discussion, a > discussion too heated for them to pause and tell you exactly what it is > about. In fact, the discussion had already begun long before any of them > got there, so that no one present is qualified to retrace for you all the > steps that had gone before. You listen for a while, until you decide that you > have caught the tenor of the argument; then you put in your oar. Someone > answers you; you answer him; another comes to your defense; another > aligns himself against you, to either the embarrassment or gratification > of your opponent, depending upon the quality of your ally's assistance. > However, the discussion is interminable. The hour grows late, you must > depart. And you do depart, with the discussion still vigorously in > progress." Kenneth Burke, *The Philosophy of Literary Form* In 1996, Russell Hunt, Gordon Wells, and others had an interesting xmca exchange on the topic of "Burke's Parlor," including Hunt's observation that "Gordon's narrative, which I think I prefer to Burke's, leaves out the agnostic character of the discussion: in Burke, writing in 1941, the assumption was that the conversation HAD to be a contest." I don't think it does. Whether contest, dialogue, dialectic, or mere background noise, I hope this latest conversational turn is a contribution of value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEK3JV1Ux_5WEs1bAjoH_AXCxFMVAF6bF__;!!Mih3wA!S7ys-XdCYKh3HU5OKRoNJuEgk62EmIhOla1afIpa9D1qrvWwtfoGFtCYeUPWbash32dSWA$ As a non-expert, I have been trying to learn in public, and I can promise that your current or future students will find this helpful. If this statement sounds reasonable, please feel free to share. Thank you, Anthony P.S. The two videos in the playlist are on the longer side; there was no way around that. While not a substitute, this collection of 2-3 minute snippets does contain a fair amount of overlap: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEK3JV1Ux_5W2ZfG2I-J7prbfDUK_dIlo__;!!Mih3wA!S7ys-XdCYKh3HU5OKRoNJuEgk62EmIhOla1afIpa9D1qrvWwtfoGFtCYeUPWbat46QJmlQ$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200616/95612e25/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Wed Jun 17 00:12:46 2020 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 12:42:46 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Your views on a question. Message-ID: Dear all there, We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. Though there are various vital aspects of the event, *apartheid* remained prime of them. I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. I ask my friends, "What will be the status of *apartheid* in this situation?" NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. Regards, Harshad Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200617/90d1621a/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Jun 17 05:12:57 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 21:12:57 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A contribution of value, I hope In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anthony-- I shared it with my ex-grad. (I am marrying her in the fall--I mean, I'm marrying her to somebody else; when you are a professor in Korea, you are often called on to perform the actual ceremony, so long as you haven't had too many marriages of your own). She is doing a PhD in early years at the University of Regina in Canada, and she has the usual problem: you can't just ask questions about what the kids are thinking or saying or even doing, because the thing you are interested in studying isn't all there yet. Her super, selected on the same basis as we select people for wedding ceremonies here in Korea, is a successful questionnaire-and-survey person and doesn't see this is a problem. I think Burke's metaphor is really like studying a narwhal by analogy with a unicorn, or a dinosaur as a kind of Chinese dragon. Burke wants us to understand something real and concrete like the relationship between lit and crit simply by thinking of something completely unreal and impossible--a kind of academic pugilism where there is neither beginning nor end and nothing is at stake but "tenor". It's interesting that he uses the word "tenor" to describe seizing the tenets of an argument by grabbing one side or another rather than grasping the issue as a process from beginning to end. "Tenor" is the term Halliday uses to mean the interpersonal back-and-forth of a context as opposed to its representational or textual qualities. But doesn't Burke's metaphor really preclude what Nikolai describes so well in his video? As Nikolai says, you gotta start BEFORE the process is underway if you want to understand the process as a whole, you need to grasp it causally and dynamically and not just grab who's in and out; you need to consider the process as becoming something and not just being and being and being. All three of these conditions are explicitly denied by the Burkean parlor metaphor, aren't they? . David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Ud9nP0Wfd21IyOKhvifoZ9EITAift85La2K_iFgYk5BCRbGVioK-XSnKy-ifYICj5d1_yg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Ud9nP0Wfd21IyOKhvifoZ9EITAift85La2K_iFgYk5BCRbGVioK-XSnKy-ifYICMY966cA$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 12:35 AM Anthony Barra wrote: > In our 8th grade classroom, we have used Burke's (1941) "parlor" metaphor > to support work on literary themes, argumentation, media analysis, > role-playing, and class discussion: > > "Imagine that you enter a parlor. You come late. When you arrive, others >> have long preceded you, and they are engaged in a heated discussion, a >> discussion too heated for them to pause and tell you exactly what it is >> about. In fact, the discussion had already begun long before any of them >> got there, so that no one present is qualified to retrace for you all >> the steps that had gone before. You listen for a while, until you decide >> that you have caught the tenor of the argument; then you put in your oar. >> Someone answers you; you answer him; another comes to your defense; >> another aligns himself against you, to either the embarrassment or >> gratification of your opponent, depending upon the quality of your >> ally's assistance. However, the discussion is interminable. The hour >> grows late, you must depart. And you do depart, with the discussion >> still vigorously in progress." Kenneth Burke, *The Philosophy of >> Literary Form* > > > In 1996, Russell Hunt, Gordon Wells, and others had an interesting xmca > exchange on the topic of "Burke's Parlor," including Hunt's observation > that "Gordon's narrative, which I think I prefer to Burke's, leaves out the > agnostic character of the discussion: in Burke, writing in 1941, the > assumption was that the conversation HAD to be a contest." I don't think > it does. > > Whether contest, dialogue, dialectic, or mere background noise, I hope > this latest conversational turn is a contribution of value: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEK3JV1Ux_5WEs1bAjoH_AXCxFMVAF6bF__;!!Mih3wA!Ud9nP0Wfd21IyOKhvifoZ9EITAift85La2K_iFgYk5BCRbGVioK-XSnKy-ifYICbX5WDxA$ > > > > As a non-expert, I have been trying to learn in public, and I can promise > that your current or future students will find this helpful. If this > statement sounds reasonable, please feel free to share. > > Thank you, > > Anthony > > P.S. The two videos in the playlist are on the longer side; there was no > way around that. > While not a substitute, this collection of 2-3 minute snippets does > contain a fair amount of overlap: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEK3JV1Ux_5W2ZfG2I-J7prbfDUK_dIlo__;!!Mih3wA!Ud9nP0Wfd21IyOKhvifoZ9EITAift85La2K_iFgYk5BCRbGVioK-XSnKy-ifYIDBZ8SRSw$ > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200617/e5174850/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Jun 17 05:24:07 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 21:24:07 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Harshad: I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Q_T1T-yScWKk-O8fAQy2MGeFpRYlWFTJaOfWiNV6OlC8kQDKN2JeAffKU6p3X_X_g6SDzw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Q_T1T-yScWKk-O8fAQy2MGeFpRYlWFTJaOfWiNV6OlC8kQDKN2JeAffKU6p3X_VyIA0yng$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave wrote: > > Dear all there, > > We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA > under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on > the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and > discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in > newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We > just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out > burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against > apartheid was the major cry behind them. > Though there are various vital aspects of the event, *apartheid* remained > prime of them. > I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. > > Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the > USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to > perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the > europeans changed to black like negro. > I ask my friends, "What will be the status of *apartheid* in this > situation?" > > NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views > on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in > the article. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200617/bdb2d3de/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jun 17 11:01:51 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 18:01:51 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi David, and venerable others paying a little bit of attention, I realize I'm come lately on this reply, as my life does exist extra-screen and off the keyboard now and then, despite sheltering in place. Let me clarify where I got the powers of three presentations. That was from following Phillip's links to Nuthall and reading his paper, hosted at New Zealand's Leaders in Education website. Nuthall if I can accept the paper on its face, experimentally established that when the students were presented with the object of knowledge (that's my phrase) three times they came to grasp it, they learned it. No, that's not presenting the SAME lesson three times, and I would have thought dear David you had more imagination than that. I presume you didn't read that paper, so you didn't get the reference, or rather there was a distorted reference. That's OK that happens to me many times with you various references to papers I haven't had the chance to read. So let me just clarify my reference. It's the material and how it is presented, three times. For example: Let's take "ABC" as the object to be known. (I say "known" and not "taught" very deliberately). If I tell you first, "I'm going to teach you ABC." Then I say, "A is the first letter; C is the third." Then later, "B is always in the middle." And then I say, "And by the way, CBA is backwards." I have basically presented the object of knowledge three times, and now you know ABC to be ABC. You have learned it. Perhaps this example is facile, but it is intended to illustrate what Nuthall learned and was able to replicate in the classroom. He also discovered that the experience of teachers had nothing to do with good learning outcomes. Doesn't this mean there is something biological going on (not totally, but an aspect that is determined in the dynamics of learning)? I think this makes a lot of sense because we can sometimes make out that experienced teachers are like genius artists. They were touched by the finger of God, and they just "know" how to teach students. That's a fallacy. There can be some experienced teachers who are just bad teachers repeating bad habits and producing students with bad learning outcomes. Perhaps it's better to say that bad teachers are fantastic at maintaining the ignorance of their students. This is not to diminish experience acquired from years of teaching, but just to point out what Nuthall learned. There is a methodology to learning, we call it teaching, but maybe our ontology is wrong. It's really learning that we need to focus upon and its dynamics. In a sense (as in sensing) this is determined, because we are biological creatures, after all. That is not said with intention to somehow limit us, because one of our traits as biological creatures is that WE LEARN. That's a beautiful thing. Knowledge is basically the sunlight that we reach toward and benefit from; it nourishes us. When we reflect this knowledge we become more than what we were before. There is an appearance (it is illusory) that what we learn is "in our heads." Just as cognition is not isolated to neuronal synapses in the brain, knowledge is not stored there either. Knowledge is "out there" and when we reflect it accurately then the object of knowledge is known. We basically become as the thing we come to know (that is, we reflect it), and then we build on that to become what I will call "better reflectors". This is what learning is. We polish the mirror until we shine. We do not add knowledge, rather we remove ignorance. In Sanskrit, "guru" means "one who removes ignorance." This has a very deep reference I feel is lost in the west, where, thanks to Descartes and his atoms, we see knowledge as a constructed product made of parts. As if we are essentially sharing recipes on how to make that product, passing secrets from one group to another, one generation to another, and while doing it we make some alterations that make the product *better,* which we then call technological advancement. (Have you driven a Ford lately?) This way of rending "products of knowledge" may support capitalism more than we realize, actually. Because we are in a universe that functions with certain laws, an apparent order, otherwise how does it all stay together and not fly apart at the seams, there is an outward structure we rely upon in rendering our cognitive strategies and their consequences. Hence distributed cognition. By outward, I mean beyond our physical bodies, though this border is permeable. I do not intend to say it is hard and immutable. There is a unification with the environment that lend itself as a means of knowledge (though perhaps I am not coming up with the right words to explain what I mean), between the person and the environment. Isn't that what an affordance is. The person *with* the environment. I suppose my take on all this is that we are not looking at affordances in their total manifestation. In this discussion, we seem to give purpose to culture and how it impacts thought (or minds), but then we cull culture out and then revert to (a habit of thinking about) embodied beings that are deterministic machines or computers (here we go with mutual superimposition again!), language being our software programs that run the our algorithms that produce an outcome in isolation from the environment in which we exist. That isn't how knowledge takes place. I maintain (and continue to do so) there is something worth knowing from the ancients. They have it right. All I'm pointing out is the science supports it, for those who are understandably skeptical. Also forgive me, however, I thought Giacomo Rizzolatti,Giuseppe Di Pellegrino, Luciano Fadiga, Leonardo Fogassi, and Vittoria Gallese at the Univerity of Parma were the ones to discover mirror neurons in the 80s and 90s in their experimentation on Macaque monkeys? I was not in any way referencing "Edelman's theory of re-entrant ("mirror") neurons," as David phrased it. I'm not sure what that even means, so I took to Wikipedia and searched for Edelman. I learned that there are many Edelmans in the world, or rather in Wikipedia, (500 pages worth!). I did find a book by Shimon Edelman called "Computing the Mind: How the Mind Really Works" (2008) and wondered if that is the same Edelman. If so, this just supports what I say above. We are just reproducing more Cartesian notions by using the computer-as-metaphor. To make it seem more "real" we add the word "really." It's only "really" in the sense of "real-ly" like "badly," "succinctly," or even "syrup-y" not to leave out nouns. That doesn't mean it's real. If it's not real, then it's an illusion, right? Sometimes reading a label that says "new and improved" doesn't mean it actually is "new" or "improved." Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:43 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" [EXTERNAL] Annalisa and Mike: The Good Lord loves and rewards stubborn persistence, Annalisa. I am not sure kids do, though--will they want to sit through the same presentation three times? Or do you simply mean we use three different presentations so that we can randomize the order? Of course, "sputnik" didn't mean a satellite for Vygotsky--the first Sputniks were launched just before I was born, about twenty years after Vygotsky died. When I first translated Vygotsky, I thought a "sputnik" was a kind of sattelite God, Hermes to Zeus, Hanuman to Ram, Athena to Odysseus. But I notice that Russians use "sputnik" to just mean something like "companion", a fellow traveler, or a playmate. So instead of a kind of guardian angel, emotion functions as a bosom companion, growing up as the child grows. I have--as usual--expressed myself rather poorly, Mike. (It will amuse you greatly to learn that I am teaching Communication this term!) When I said "represent" I did mean re-present. I actually meant exactly what Annalisa is describing. The teacher presents the task (usually a dramatic situation of some kind) to a small group of "group leaders" and they do an example before the class begins. Those group leaders then return to their groups and present the task to the groups. We did video the results, but I thought the product wasn't nearly as interesting as analyzing the process. Phillip: Halliday thought that Edelman's view of intelligence was the real biological foundation of his linguistics. And Annalisa is right, it did have a lot to do with Edelman's theory of re-entrant ("mirror") neurons. Andy has some trouble with the determinism of Vygotsky; I have a rather different problem with his hierarchical ideas of how functions are organized in a system. Edelman's books offer a pretty clear way out of that problem! On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 7:10 AM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: David, My stubborn persistence tells me that there is a way to bring in the dynamics of the pandemic crisis into your research design if we think about it long enough. If emotion is the sputnik, as you reasonably hypothesize, then how can you create opportunities for sputnik to launch? I maintain that this can be done with peer learning, because what counts is the cultural connection a student has with a peer compared to that cultural connection the student has with an instructor. Given in your description of social distancing, isn't there a way to compare and contrast learning that comes from "in person with social distancing" vis s vis learning that comes from "online learning"? What you describe in your study is not what I was proposing. I was proposing how a student learns from a peer presenting the object of learning compared to the way a teacher might. And to use online vs in person learning venues to compare and contrast what we might call the perezhivanie in the learning moment. If we might accept Nuthall's findings that learning happens when the underlying materials are presented at least three times, that should be a replicable structure that could bear fruit. It should be possible to determine and trace the emotional attachment that prevails in successful concept development. How about: * Have a control for presentations with underlying material offered three times (delivered via online learning?) * Have a presentation with socially distant teacher presenting three times. * Have a presentation with socially distant peer presenting three times. Note the differences and similarities, as well as effectiveness and even how quickly a concept is absorbed and mastered by the learner. What is the flaw in that design as you see it? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2020 3:26 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" [EXTERNAL] Annalisa: It's a great idea. But we are in the throes of "the dance" here in South Korea. Schools reopen. Then there's an outbreak. So the government closes schools again and we all go back into isolation for ten days. Then things reopen again, until the next outbreak. Even when schools are open, class size is greatly reduced, students are kept at least two meters apart and put in masks (we don't have those crazy hats that you see in China, but some schools use cubicles), and that would make it really hard to get peer teaching, much less collect data from peer teaching. We did do something like what you propose way back in 2007--we just looked at the difference between the way a teacher presented the task and the way that the task was represented to groups. Guk, I. and Kellogg, D. (2007). The ZPD and Whole Class Teaching: Teacher-led and Student-led Interactional Mediation in Tasks. Language Teaching Research 11,3 (2007); pp. 281?299 I suspect that if you read this study you will find it methodologically and even intellectually crude, particularly compared to what you propose, but for reasons I don't really understand it's the only thing we ever wrote that gets widely cited!) Phillip: Yes, ethnography would show precisely the kind of development we're interested in. But I think ethnography is better suited to studying stability than to studying crises. I get that crises are like anything else--they need to be highly contextured to be well textured. But because ethnography has a tendency to view the social and cultural and historical dimension exclusively through the language of the interpersonal, it's really hard to get genetic cross-sections that are broad enough and long enough to tell you how the system as a whole changes at "inflection points" (Joe Biden!) that are prepared for systematically precisely by those epochs we are naively thinking of as stable. (Ruqaiya Hasan's work was one of very few exceptions to this constraint....) For example. One of the most important responses to the crisis revealed by George Floyd's murder has been to argue that the protests are too easily hijacked as pretexts for violence (see, for example, Boris Johnson's recent remarks on the descecration of Winston Churchill's statue in Parliament Square in London). This assumes, weirdly, a widespread tendency towards unmotivated violence that I have never actually observed in any fellow human being. I am pretty sure that Boris Johnson could probably find someone to produce ethnographic evidence that it exists, but I am equally sure that he couldn't ever produce evidence that it is systemic. Without that evidence, there is no way to predict or explain the fire next time. Language stuff is not like this: every text is evidence of both the interpersonal and of what we are calling, non-redundantly, the socio-cultural. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!T0YcAI2ZFgrcVF9YM9MLUDcb-cNp7LIOcgsmsruD3hNBinkSE-tE2qzQj3zlLHsVz7xtfg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T0YcAI2ZFgrcVF9YM9MLUDcb-cNp7LIOcgsmsruD3hNBinkSE-tE2qzQj3zlLHtISrhj0A$ On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 11:59 PM White, Phillip > wrote: rather than a test, David, perhaps a rigorous ethnography along the lines of what Graham Nuthall did - https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://researched.org.uk/graham-nuthall-educational-research-at-its-best/__;!!Mih3wA!T0YcAI2ZFgrcVF9YM9MLUDcb-cNp7LIOcgsmsruD3hNBinkSE-tE2qzQj3zlLHvwmgqSEw$ Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best ? researchED Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best 26th February 2019 / in February 2019 / by Jan Tishauser. Professor Emeritus Graham Nuthall, an educational researcher from New Zealand, is credited with one of the longest series of studies of teaching and learning in the classroom that has ever been carried out. A pioneer in his field, his ... researched.org.uk it was highly complex, but clearly from his finding emotions play a key role in concept formation. he died about 16 years ago. and oddly enough his work is still little appreciated. https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz/Pedagogy-and-assessment/Pedagogical-leadership/The-cultural-myths-and-realities-of-teaching-and-learning__;!!Mih3wA!T0YcAI2ZFgrcVF9YM9MLUDcb-cNp7LIOcgsmsruD3hNBinkSE-tE2qzQj3zlLHsxjeu4UA$ The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning / Pedagogical leadership / Pedagogy and assessment / Home - Educational Leaders The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning. by Graham Nuthall. Download this complete document (PDF 149 kB) Help with PDF files Overview. Graham Nuthall was Emeritus Professor of Education at the University of Canterbury in Christchurch. https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz__;!!Mih3wA!T0YcAI2ZFgrcVF9YM9MLUDcb-cNp7LIOcgsmsruD3hNBinkSE-tE2qzQj3zlLHu6z9KcRQ$ Nuthall had participated in some of xmca conversation. also, Gerard Edelman's work, which was the focus of an xmca conversation some time ago, points out that initials perceptions are initially sorted into one of two values - in layman's terms, like or dislike. which is of course an emotional response. Bright Air, Brilliant Fire: On the Matter of the Mind (Basic Books, 1992, Reprint edition 1993). ISBN 0-465-00764-3 in short, there are many ways of exploring student emotions i'd consider to be more reliable that trustworthy than tests. phillip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200617/9364665c/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Jun 17 13:01:47 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:01:47 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A contribution of value, I hope In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I hope you married THEM, David. I have done that too, Very interestings experience. But it would be appropriate to marry one person! :-) mike On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 5:19 AM David Kellogg wrote: > Anthony-- > > I shared it with my ex-grad. (I am marrying her in the fall--I mean, I'm > marrying her to somebody else; when you are a professor in Korea, you are > often called on to perform the actual ceremony, so long as you haven't had > too many marriages of your own). She is doing a PhD in early years at the > University of Regina in Canada, and she has the usual problem: you can't > just ask questions about what the kids are thinking or saying or even > doing, because the thing you are interested in studying isn't all there > yet. Her super, selected on the same basis as we select people for wedding > ceremonies here in Korea, is a successful questionnaire-and-survey person > and doesn't see this is a problem. > > I think Burke's metaphor is really like studying a narwhal by analogy with > a unicorn, or a dinosaur as a kind of Chinese dragon. Burke wants us to > understand something real and concrete like the relationship between lit > and crit simply by thinking of something completely unreal and > impossible--a kind of academic pugilism where there is neither beginning > nor end and nothing is at stake but "tenor". It's interesting that he uses > the word "tenor" to describe seizing the tenets of an argument by > grabbing one side or another rather than grasping the issue as a process > from beginning to end. "Tenor" is the term Halliday uses to mean the > interpersonal back-and-forth of a context as opposed to its > representational or textual qualities. > > But doesn't Burke's metaphor really preclude what Nikolai describes so > well in his video? As Nikolai says, you gotta start BEFORE the process is > underway if you want to understand the process as a whole, you need to > grasp it causally and dynamically and not just grab who's in > and out; you need to consider the process as becoming something and not > just being and being and being. All three of these conditions are > explicitly denied by the Burkean parlor metaphor, aren't they? . > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WERzVa5JMRDUWIzrcJEzzl0bBfgzJ1Ko5dBbongc-mwMEwGwjjnQAbdAEnZcwuizYTbNZw$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WERzVa5JMRDUWIzrcJEzzl0bBfgzJ1Ko5dBbongc-mwMEwGwjjnQAbdAEnZcwuiAxcksmA$ > > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 12:35 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> In our 8th grade classroom, we have used Burke's (1941) "parlor" metaphor >> to support work on literary themes, argumentation, media analysis, >> role-playing, and class discussion: >> >> "Imagine that you enter a parlor. You come late. When you arrive, others >>> have long preceded you, and they are engaged in a heated discussion, a >>> discussion too heated for them to pause and tell you exactly what it is >>> about. In fact, the discussion had already begun long before any of >>> them got there, so that no one present is qualified to retrace for you >>> all the steps that had gone before. You listen for a while, until you >>> decide that you have caught the tenor of the argument; then you put in >>> your oar. Someone answers you; you answer him; another comes to your defense; >>> another aligns himself against you, to either the embarrassment or >>> gratification of your opponent, depending upon the quality of your >>> ally's assistance. However, the discussion is interminable. The hour >>> grows late, you must depart. And you do depart, with the discussion >>> still vigorously in progress." Kenneth Burke, *The Philosophy of >>> Literary Form* >> >> >> In 1996, Russell Hunt, Gordon Wells, and others had an interesting xmca >> exchange on the topic of "Burke's Parlor," including Hunt's observation >> that "Gordon's narrative, which I think I prefer to Burke's, leaves out the >> agnostic character of the discussion: in Burke, writing in 1941, the >> assumption was that the conversation HAD to be a contest." I don't think >> it does. >> >> Whether contest, dialogue, dialectic, or mere background noise, I hope >> this latest conversational turn is a contribution of value: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEK3JV1Ux_5WEs1bAjoH_AXCxFMVAF6bF__;!!Mih3wA!WERzVa5JMRDUWIzrcJEzzl0bBfgzJ1Ko5dBbongc-mwMEwGwjjnQAbdAEnZcwujhIIB6nQ$ >> >> >> >> As a non-expert, I have been trying to learn in public, and I can promise >> that your current or future students will find this helpful. If this >> statement sounds reasonable, please feel free to share. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Anthony >> >> P.S. The two videos in the playlist are on the longer side; there was no >> way around that. >> While not a substitute, this collection of 2-3 minute snippets does >> contain a fair amount of overlap: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEK3JV1Ux_5W2ZfG2I-J7prbfDUK_dIlo__;!!Mih3wA!WERzVa5JMRDUWIzrcJEzzl0bBfgzJ1Ko5dBbongc-mwMEwGwjjnQAbdAEnZcwuiB6JvnvA$ >> >> >> >> >> >> > -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!WERzVa5JMRDUWIzrcJEzzl0bBfgzJ1Ko5dBbongc-mwMEwGwjjnQAbdAEnZcwuiehaXqCQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200617/c9fa1652/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Jun 17 14:38:12 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 14:38:12 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A contribution of value, I hope In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anthony and David- I am a great admirer of Burke's..... and of the parlor metaphor. But I did not take away all the features you did. Must be I have a different terministic screen. (see below). I am not sure why, maybe from memories of parties that go late into the night where there is an all night political argument about the possibility of social democracy, or whether the US blew a chance for real detente with Russia in 1991, or whether the, if Lenin had lived, the USSR would have taken another path (a hot, never ceasing topic when we lived in the dorms at MoscowU, or, maybe how to use the current crisis to make structural change in the US. Anyway, for me it works as a metaphor for the discourses of modern social life. About terministic determinism. I went of google to check the term and found the brief summary below of the idea fpn wikipedia. It struck me as a very similar to lsv's idea of the semantic structure of consciousness. And relevant to many of our discussions. mike >From Wikipedia Another key concept for Burke is the Terministic screen ?a *set* of symbols that becomes a kind of *screen* or grid of intelligibility through which the world makes sense to us. Here Burke offers rhetorical theorists and critics a way of understanding the relationship between language and ideology. Language, Burke thought, doesn't simply "reflect" reality; it also helps *select* reality as well as *deflect* reality. In *Language as Symbolic Action* (1966), he writes, "Even if any given terminology is a *reflection* of reality, by its very nature as a terminology it must be a *selection* of reality; and to this extent must function also as a *deflection* of reality. [22] Burke describes terministic screens as reflections of reality?we see these symbols as things that direct our attention to the topic at hand. For example, photos of the same object with different filters each direct the viewer's attention differently, much like how different subjects in academia grab the attention differently. Burke states, "We must use terministic screens, since we can't say anything without the use of terms; whatever terms we use, they necessarily constitute a corresponding kind of screen; and any such screen necessarily directs the attention to one field rather than another." Burke drew not only from the works of Shakespeare and Sophocles, but from films and radio that were important to pop culture, because they were teeming with "symbolic and rhetorical ingredients." We as a people can be cued to accept the screen put in front of us, and mass culture such as TV and websites can be to blame for this. Media today has altered terministic screens, or as Richard Toye wrote in his book *Rhetoric: A Very Short Introduction*, the "linguistic filters which cause us to see situations in particular fashions." On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:35 AM Anthony Barra wrote: > In our 8th grade classroom, we have used Burke's (1941) "parlor" metaphor > to support work on literary themes, argumentation, media analysis, > role-playing, and class discussion: > > "Imagine that you enter a parlor. You come late. When you arrive, others >> have long preceded you, and they are engaged in a heated discussion, a >> discussion too heated for them to pause and tell you exactly what it is >> about. In fact, the discussion had already begun long before any of them >> got there, so that no one present is qualified to retrace for you all >> the steps that had gone before. You listen for a while, until you decide >> that you have caught the tenor of the argument; then you put in your oar. >> Someone answers you; you answer him; another comes to your defense; >> another aligns himself against you, to either the embarrassment or >> gratification of your opponent, depending upon the quality of your >> ally's assistance. However, the discussion is interminable. The hour >> grows late, you must depart. And you do depart, with the discussion >> still vigorously in progress." Kenneth Burke, *The Philosophy of >> Literary Form* > > > In 1996, Russell Hunt, Gordon Wells, and others had an interesting xmca > exchange on the topic of "Burke's Parlor," including Hunt's observation > that "Gordon's narrative, which I think I prefer to Burke's, leaves out the > agnostic character of the discussion: in Burke, writing in 1941, the > assumption was that the conversation HAD to be a contest." I don't think > it does. > > Whether contest, dialogue, dialectic, or mere background noise, I hope > this latest conversational turn is a contribution of value: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEK3JV1Ux_5WEs1bAjoH_AXCxFMVAF6bF__;!!Mih3wA!W7tmJHlMLhZZaJSeTL-4zyxZoi5rH3fCW766WTglTGqxjpIszXCo9FZaKl1vI7C7_LFs7Q$ > > > > As a non-expert, I have been trying to learn in public, and I can promise > that your current or future students will find this helpful. If this > statement sounds reasonable, please feel free to share. > > Thank you, > > Anthony > > P.S. The two videos in the playlist are on the longer side; there was no > way around that. > While not a substitute, this collection of 2-3 minute snippets does > contain a fair amount of overlap: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEK3JV1Ux_5W2ZfG2I-J7prbfDUK_dIlo__;!!Mih3wA!W7tmJHlMLhZZaJSeTL-4zyxZoi5rH3fCW766WTglTGqxjpIszXCo9FZaKl1vI7BcLizFmA$ > > > > > > -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!W7tmJHlMLhZZaJSeTL-4zyxZoi5rH3fCW766WTglTGqxjpIszXCo9FZaKl1vI7DReuEYVg$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200617/edae724f/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Jun 17 14:56:18 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 06:56:18 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Annalisa-- There are four book titles in the previous posts on Gerald Edelman: "Bright Air, Brilliant Fire", which is a general introduction, and the trilogy of "Topobiology", "Neural Darwinism" and the "Remembered Present". Edelman won the Nobel Prize for work on immunoglobulins, and then got interested in a theory of consciousness based on a similar non-hierarchical understanding of the relationship of the parts to the whole in the nervous system. I remember hearing about it from his colleague Samir Zaki in London some time in the eighties. A lot of important academic lectures were open to the public back then. It kept me from reading the books for many years. I did read Nuthall's work, but it was many years ago, so I much appreciated your re-presentation, Annalisa. I will look again after class today, though. I do like Anthony's videos, but I find myself listening to them as I wash the dishes or tidy my study. Nikolai is often just giving Anthony raw Vygotsky in a "just between you and me" format. This I prefer to get studying Vygotsky in print A lot of music video done in lockdown has this "in your face" format too (no distracting camera movement, no panoramic shots of cheering audiences, and of course absolutely no CGI or narrative). I think in both cases the representational and textual content is much the same, but the emotional tenor is quite different. That is what I wanted to study in the 2007 paper, and I think it would have been greatly complicated by a practice effect if we'd presented the task three times. There were practical considerations too. As I said, most of the tasks were dramatic situations (in Nikolai's sense, in the sense of collision). For example, two boys have an arm-wrestling contest to see who will be able to take a girl to an amusement park in the textbook. When you do the same dramatic situation three times, you can't actually reverse it. We did reorganize this so that there was re-presentation of the task at three levels: eight boys wrestle in two pairs, then the four winners go to semi-finals, and finally two winners meet in finals. But Nikolai would say that it is no longer a dramatic collision, and I think that's right David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!U5r7O6BqnUQluytUk0zY4vMMSRCZxVNSTuczXc_M2hraLWkIjlZQfXC2HdQxh_HzKqybNA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!U5r7O6BqnUQluytUk0zY4vMMSRCZxVNSTuczXc_M2hraLWkIjlZQfXC2HdQxh_EpxTe7Jg$ On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 3:05 AM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi David, and venerable others paying a little bit of attention, > > I realize I'm come lately on this reply, as my life does exist > extra-screen and off the keyboard now and then, despite sheltering in > place. > > Let me clarify where I got the powers of three presentations. That was > from following Phillip's links to Nuthall and reading his paper, hosted at > New Zealand's Leaders in Education website. Nuthall if I can accept the > paper on its face, experimentally established that when the students were > presented with the object of knowledge (that's my phrase) three times they > came to grasp it, they learned it. > > No, that's not presenting the SAME lesson three times, and I would have > thought dear David you had more imagination than that. I presume you didn't > read that paper, so you didn't get the reference, or rather there was a > distorted reference. > > That's OK that happens to me many times with you various references to > papers I haven't had the chance to read. > > So let me just clarify my reference. > > It's the material and how it is presented, three times. For example: > > Let's take "ABC" as the object to be known. > > (I say "known" and not "taught" very deliberately). > > If I tell you first, "I'm going to teach you ABC." > > Then I say, "A is the first letter; C is the third." > > Then later, "B is always in the middle." > > And then I say, "And by the way, CBA is backwards." > > I have basically presented the object of knowledge three times, and now > you know ABC to be ABC. You have learned it. > > Perhaps this example is facile, but it is intended to illustrate what > Nuthall learned and was able to replicate in the classroom. He also > discovered that the experience of teachers had nothing to do with good > learning outcomes. Doesn't this mean there is something biological going on > (not totally, but an aspect that is determined in the dynamics of learning)? > > I think this makes a lot of sense because we can sometimes make out that > experienced teachers are like genius artists. They were touched by the > finger of God, and they just "know" how to teach students. That's a > fallacy. There can be some experienced teachers who are just bad teachers > repeating bad habits and producing students with bad learning outcomes. > > Perhaps it's better to say that bad teachers are fantastic at maintaining > the ignorance of their students. > > This is not to diminish experience acquired from years of teaching, but > just to point out what Nuthall learned. > > There is a methodology to learning, we call it teaching, but maybe our > ontology is wrong. It's really learning that we need to focus upon and its > dynamics. In a sense (as in sensing) this is determined, because we are > biological creatures, after all. > > That is not said with intention to somehow limit us, because one of our > traits as biological creatures is that WE LEARN. That's a beautiful thing. > > Knowledge is basically the sunlight that we reach toward and benefit from; > it nourishes us. When we reflect this knowledge we become more than what we > were before. > > There is an appearance (it is illusory) that what we learn is "in our > heads." Just as cognition is not isolated to neuronal synapses in the > brain, knowledge is not stored there either. Knowledge is "out there" and > when we reflect it accurately then the object of knowledge is known. We > basically become as the thing we come to know (that is, we reflect it), and > then we build on that to become what I will call "better reflectors". This > is what learning is. > > We polish the mirror until we shine. We do not add knowledge, rather we > remove ignorance. > > In Sanskrit, "guru" means "one who removes ignorance." This has a very > deep reference I feel is lost in the west, where, thanks to Descartes and > his atoms, we see knowledge as a constructed product made of parts. As if > we are essentially sharing recipes on how to make that product, passing > secrets from one group to another, one generation to another, and while > doing it we make some alterations that make the product *better,* which we > then call technological advancement. (Have you driven a Ford lately?) > > This way of rending "products of knowledge" may support capitalism more > than we realize, actually. > > Because we are in a universe that functions with certain laws, an apparent > order, otherwise how does it all stay together and not fly apart at the > seams, there is an outward structure we rely upon in rendering our > cognitive strategies and their consequences. Hence distributed cognition. > By outward, I mean beyond our physical bodies, though this border is > permeable. I do not intend to say it is hard and immutable. There is a > unification with the environment that lend itself as a means of knowledge > (though perhaps I am not coming up with the right words to explain what I > mean), between the person and the environment. > > Isn't that what an affordance is. The person *with* the environment. > > I suppose my take on all this is that we are not looking at affordances in > their total manifestation. In this discussion, we seem to give purpose to > culture and how it impacts thought (or minds), but then we cull culture out > and then revert to (a habit of thinking about) embodied beings that are > deterministic machines or computers (here we go with mutual superimposition > again!), language being our software programs that run the our algorithms > that produce an outcome in isolation from the environment in which we exist. > > That isn't how knowledge takes place. > > I maintain (and continue to do so) there is something worth knowing from > the ancients. They have it right. All I'm pointing out is the science > supports it, for those who are understandably skeptical. > > Also forgive me, however, I thought Giacomo Rizzolatti,Giuseppe Di > Pellegrino, Luciano Fadiga, Leonardo Fogassi, and Vittoria Gallese at the > Univerity of Parma were the ones to discover mirror neurons in the 80s and > 90s in their experimentation on Macaque monkeys? > > I was not in any way referencing "Edelman's theory of re-entrant > ("mirror") neurons," as David phrased it. I'm not sure what that even > means, so I took to Wikipedia and searched for Edelman. > > I learned that there are many Edelmans in the world, or rather in > Wikipedia, (500 pages worth!). I did find a book by Shimon Edelman called > "Computing the Mind: How the Mind Really Works" (2008) and wondered if that > is the same Edelman. > > If so, this just supports what I say above. We are just reproducing more > Cartesian notions by using the computer-as-metaphor. To make it seem more > "real" we add the word "really." > > It's only "really" in the sense of "real-ly" like "badly," "succinctly," > or even "syrup-y" not to leave out nouns. That doesn't mean it's real. If > it's not real, then it's an illusion, right? > > Sometimes reading a label that says "new and improved" doesn't mean it > actually is "new" or "improved." > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > *Sent:* Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:43 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Annalisa and Mike: > > The Good Lord loves and rewards stubborn persistence, Annalisa. I am not > sure kids do, though--will they want to sit through the same presentation > three times? Or do you simply mean we use three different presentations so > that we can randomize the order? Of course, "sputnik" didn't mean a > satellite for Vygotsky--the first Sputniks were launched just before I was > born, about twenty years after Vygotsky died. When I first translated > Vygotsky, I thought a "sputnik" was a kind of sattelite God, Hermes to > Zeus, Hanuman to Ram, Athena to Odysseus. But I notice that Russians use > "sputnik" to just mean something like "companion", a fellow traveler, or a > playmate. So instead of a kind of guardian angel, emotion functions as a > bosom companion, growing up as the child grows. > > I have--as usual--expressed myself rather poorly, Mike. (It will amuse you > greatly to learn that I am teaching Communication this term!) When I said > "represent" I did mean re-present. I actually meant exactly what Annalisa > is describing. The teacher presents the task (usually a dramatic situation > of some kind) to a small group of "group leaders" and they do an example > before the class begins. Those group leaders then return to their groups > and present the task to the groups. We did video the results, but I thought > the product wasn't nearly as interesting as analyzing the process. > > Phillip: Halliday thought that Edelman's view of intelligence was the real > biological foundation of his linguistics. And Annalisa is right, it did > have a lot to do with Edelman's theory of re-entrant ("mirror") neurons. > Andy has some trouble with the determinism of Vygotsky; I have a rather > different problem with his hierarchical ideas of how functions are > organized in a system. Edelman's books offer a pretty clear way out of that > problem! > > > On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 7:10 AM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > David, > > My stubborn persistence tells me that there is a way to bring in the > dynamics of the pandemic crisis into your research design if we think about > it long enough. > > If emotion is the sputnik, as you reasonably hypothesize, then how can you > create opportunities for sputnik to launch? > > I maintain that this can be done with peer learning, because what counts > is the cultural connection a student has with a peer compared to that > cultural connection the student has with an instructor. Given in your > description of social distancing, isn't there a way to compare and contrast > learning that comes from "in person with social distancing" vis s vis > learning that comes from "online learning"? > > What you describe in your study is not what I was proposing. I was > proposing how a student learns from a peer presenting the object of > learning compared to the way a teacher might. And to use online vs in > person learning venues to compare and contrast what we might call the > perezhivanie in the learning moment. > > If we might accept Nuthall's findings that learning happens when the > underlying materials are presented at least three times, that should be a > replicable structure that could bear fruit. It should be possible to > determine and trace the emotional attachment that prevails in successful > concept development. > > How about: > > - Have a control for presentations with underlying material offered > three times (delivered via online learning?) > - Have a presentation with socially distant teacher presenting three > times. > - Have a presentation with socially distant peer presenting three > times. > > > Note the differences and similarities, as well as effectiveness and even > how quickly a concept is absorbed and mastered by the learner. > > What is the flaw in that design as you see it? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > *Sent:* Saturday, June 13, 2020 3:26 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Annalisa: > > It's a great idea. But we are in the throes of "the dance" here in South > Korea. Schools reopen. Then there's an outbreak. So the government closes > schools again and we all go back into isolation for ten days. Then things > reopen again, until the next outbreak. Even when schools are open, class > size is greatly reduced, students are kept at least two meters apart and > put in masks (we don't have those crazy hats that you see in China, but > some schools use cubicles), and that would make it really hard to get peer > teaching, much less collect data from peer teaching. > > We did do something like what you propose way back in 2007--we just looked > at the difference between the way a teacher presented the task and the way > that the task was represented to groups. > > Guk, I. and Kellogg, D. (2007). The ZPD and Whole Class Teaching: > Teacher-led and Student-led Interactional Mediation in Tasks. Language > Teaching Research 11,3 (2007); pp. 281?299 > > I suspect that if you read this study you will find it methodologically > and even intellectually crude, particularly compared to what you propose, > but for reasons I don't really understand it's the only thing we ever wrote > that gets widely cited!) > > Phillip: > > Yes, ethnography would show precisely the kind of development we're > interested in. But I think ethnography is better suited to studying > stability than to studying crises. I get that crises are like anything > else--they need to be highly contextured to be well textured. But because > ethnography has a tendency to view the social and cultural and historical > dimension exclusively through the language of the interpersonal, it's > really hard to get genetic cross-sections that are broad enough and long > enough to tell you how the system as a whole changes at "inflection points" > (Joe Biden!) that are prepared for systematically precisely by those epochs > we are naively thinking of as stable. (Ruqaiya Hasan's work was one of very > few exceptions to this constraint....) > > For example. One of the most important responses to the crisis revealed by > George Floyd's murder has been to argue that the protests are too easily > hijacked as pretexts for violence (see, for example, Boris Johnson's recent > remarks on the descecration of Winston Churchill's statue in Parliament > Square in London). This assumes, weirdly, a widespread tendency towards > unmotivated violence that I have never actually observed in any fellow > human being. I am pretty sure that Boris Johnson could probably find > someone to produce ethnographic evidence that it exists, but I am equally > sure that he couldn't ever produce evidence that it is systemic. Without > that evidence, there is no way to predict or explain the fire next time. > > Language stuff is not like this: every text is evidence of both the > interpersonal and of what we are calling, non-redundantly, the > socio-cultural. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!U5r7O6BqnUQluytUk0zY4vMMSRCZxVNSTuczXc_M2hraLWkIjlZQfXC2HdQxh_HzKqybNA$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!U5r7O6BqnUQluytUk0zY4vMMSRCZxVNSTuczXc_M2hraLWkIjlZQfXC2HdQxh_EpxTe7Jg$ > > > > > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 11:59 PM White, Phillip < > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: > > rather than a test, David, perhaps a rigorous ethnography along the lines > of what Graham Nuthall did - > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://researched.org.uk/graham-nuthall-educational-research-at-its-best/__;!!Mih3wA!U5r7O6BqnUQluytUk0zY4vMMSRCZxVNSTuczXc_M2hraLWkIjlZQfXC2HdQxh_GQeCRyeg$ > > Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best ? researchED > > Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best 26th February 2019 / in > February 2019 / by Jan Tishauser. Professor Emeritus Graham Nuthall, an > educational researcher from New Zealand, is credited with one of the > longest series of studies of teaching and learning in the classroom that > has ever been carried out. A pioneer in his field, his ... > researched.org.uk > > > > it was highly complex, but clearly from his finding emotions play a key > role in concept formation. > > he died about 16 years ago. and oddly enough his work is still little > appreciated. > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz/Pedagogy-and-assessment/Pedagogical-leadership/The-cultural-myths-and-realities-of-teaching-and-learning__;!!Mih3wA!U5r7O6BqnUQluytUk0zY4vMMSRCZxVNSTuczXc_M2hraLWkIjlZQfXC2HdQxh_F_VofJfQ$ > > The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning / Pedagogical > leadership / Pedagogy and assessment / Home - Educational Leaders > > The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning. by Graham > Nuthall. Download this complete document (PDF 149 kB) Help with PDF files > Overview. Graham Nuthall was Emeritus Professor of Education at the > University of Canterbury in Christchurch. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz__;!!Mih3wA!U5r7O6BqnUQluytUk0zY4vMMSRCZxVNSTuczXc_M2hraLWkIjlZQfXC2HdQxh_G_i8PP6w$ > > > Nuthall had participated in some of xmca conversation. > > also, Gerard Edelman's work, which was the focus of an xmca conversation > some time ago, points out that initials perceptions are initially sorted > into one of two values - in layman's terms, like or dislike. which is of > course an emotional response. > > *Bright Air, Brilliant Fire: On the Matter of the Mind* (Basic Books, > 1992, Reprint edition 1993). ISBN > > 0-465-00764-3 > > > in short, there are many ways of exploring student emotions i'd consider > to be more reliable that trustworthy than tests. > > phillip > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200618/4cc2574f/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Wed Jun 17 18:21:33 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 21:21:33 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A contribution of value, I hope In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, David -- for the reply and for sharing the video. I hope it will be useful. I've always thought of the Burkean parlor as a metaphorical place where ideas get exchanged, sometimes combatively, sometimes while doing dishes or tidying up, but more ideally (in my hopes) via productive conversation or productive dialectic. But really, it wasn't really necessary for me to include the Burke quote at all, as the proper emphasis should have been on Nikolai's contributions. But I'm glad I did mention Burke's parlor, in that it sparked some interesting replies, including your thought-provoking allusion to Halliday. I like that you bring him up often! In fact . . . https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx3H5uAZIoI__;!!Mih3wA!U9I8eCQQWUyYCHi9A6C0c3IoUXq22sXe0XpRNeZI6CpxXd7PnRrskxE3qu4UTdOUsB2c-A$ (What do you say? Can this be addressed to lay people - teachers especially - in like 3-5 minutes or so?) Thank you again, Anthony On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 8:19 AM David Kellogg wrote: > Anthony-- > > I shared it with my ex-grad. (I am marrying her in the fall--I mean, I'm > marrying her to somebody else; when you are a professor in Korea, you are > often called on to perform the actual ceremony, so long as you haven't had > too many marriages of your own). She is doing a PhD in early years at the > University of Regina in Canada, and she has the usual problem: you can't > just ask questions about what the kids are thinking or saying or even > doing, because the thing you are interested in studying isn't all there > yet. Her super, selected on the same basis as we select people for wedding > ceremonies here in Korea, is a successful questionnaire-and-survey person > and doesn't see this is a problem. > > I think Burke's metaphor is really like studying a narwhal by analogy with > a unicorn, or a dinosaur as a kind of Chinese dragon. Burke wants us to > understand something real and concrete like the relationship between lit > and crit simply by thinking of something completely unreal and > impossible--a kind of academic pugilism where there is neither beginning > nor end and nothing is at stake but "tenor". It's interesting that he uses > the word "tenor" to describe seizing the tenets of an argument by > grabbing one side or another rather than grasping the issue as a process > from beginning to end. "Tenor" is the term Halliday uses to mean the > interpersonal back-and-forth of a context as opposed to its > representational or textual qualities. > > But doesn't Burke's metaphor really preclude what Nikolai describes so > well in his video? As Nikolai says, you gotta start BEFORE the process is > underway if you want to understand the process as a whole, you need to > grasp it causally and dynamically and not just grab who's in > and out; you need to consider the process as becoming something and not > just being and being and being. All three of these conditions are > explicitly denied by the Burkean parlor metaphor, aren't they? . > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!U9I8eCQQWUyYCHi9A6C0c3IoUXq22sXe0XpRNeZI6CpxXd7PnRrskxE3qu4UTdOLGG5ApA$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!U9I8eCQQWUyYCHi9A6C0c3IoUXq22sXe0XpRNeZI6CpxXd7PnRrskxE3qu4UTdM9S8xkJQ$ > > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 12:35 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> In our 8th grade classroom, we have used Burke's (1941) "parlor" metaphor >> to support work on literary themes, argumentation, media analysis, >> role-playing, and class discussion: >> >> "Imagine that you enter a parlor. You come late. When you arrive, others >>> have long preceded you, and they are engaged in a heated discussion, a >>> discussion too heated for them to pause and tell you exactly what it is >>> about. In fact, the discussion had already begun long before any of >>> them got there, so that no one present is qualified to retrace for you >>> all the steps that had gone before. You listen for a while, until you >>> decide that you have caught the tenor of the argument; then you put in >>> your oar. Someone answers you; you answer him; another comes to your defense; >>> another aligns himself against you, to either the embarrassment or >>> gratification of your opponent, depending upon the quality of your >>> ally's assistance. However, the discussion is interminable. The hour >>> grows late, you must depart. And you do depart, with the discussion >>> still vigorously in progress." Kenneth Burke, *The Philosophy of >>> Literary Form* >> >> >> In 1996, Russell Hunt, Gordon Wells, and others had an interesting xmca >> exchange on the topic of "Burke's Parlor," including Hunt's observation >> that "Gordon's narrative, which I think I prefer to Burke's, leaves out the >> agnostic character of the discussion: in Burke, writing in 1941, the >> assumption was that the conversation HAD to be a contest." I don't think >> it does. >> >> Whether contest, dialogue, dialectic, or mere background noise, I hope >> this latest conversational turn is a contribution of value: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEK3JV1Ux_5WEs1bAjoH_AXCxFMVAF6bF__;!!Mih3wA!U9I8eCQQWUyYCHi9A6C0c3IoUXq22sXe0XpRNeZI6CpxXd7PnRrskxE3qu4UTdMxpBz45w$ >> >> >> >> As a non-expert, I have been trying to learn in public, and I can promise >> that your current or future students will find this helpful. If this >> statement sounds reasonable, please feel free to share. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Anthony >> >> P.S. The two videos in the playlist are on the longer side; there was no >> way around that. >> While not a substitute, this collection of 2-3 minute snippets does >> contain a fair amount of overlap: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEK3JV1Ux_5W2ZfG2I-J7prbfDUK_dIlo__;!!Mih3wA!U9I8eCQQWUyYCHi9A6C0c3IoUXq22sXe0XpRNeZI6CpxXd7PnRrskxE3qu4UTdPq9HKyXQ$ >> >> >> >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200617/1c6732a1/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jun 17 19:10:11 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 02:10:11 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hello David, I'm a little perplexed about the connection of learning and arm-wrestling. I must have missed something. I don't mean to be pointed when I say that particular "lesson" seems fairly sexist to me, in the sense that it seems to rely on sex and violence as motivators. It reminds me of a chapter I read in The Moral Animal by Robert Wright. He discusses about how no one (that is, men) objects to the pattern of men's arousal by centerfolds, but then laugh when male turkeys will try to mate with inanimate objects, especially if the object is a female turkey head (sans body) being held by a string at the approximate height of an actual female turkey (This was done by experiment). I actually witnessed something of this turkey behavior. I mean this literally! There are wild turkeys roaming in Berkeley and one was trying to get it on with a parked shiny black car, on which I think it saw its own reflection, go figure. It was dancing all over with its tail feathers in a perfect arc. I'm not sure how arm wrestling creates sputnik emotional response you are hoping for, but maybe I am missing something. But to quell an urge that I had not completed something I was trying to remember the system of understanding I had referenced in an earlier post. To adequately complete my discussion about knowledge and how one acquires it, I had a discussion with my teacher to refresh my memory. I feel that it has a lot of Vygotsky in it, even though it was known before he ever came along. It's not a 1:1 ontology, but taken as a whole, they mirror one another. In the texts of the Vedanta, there is always a form that is followed, which can function like a nutrition label on a box at the supermarket. It's called "anubandha chatusthaya" which means the four-fold connection. Usually this is present in the first verse of a text, and it is done quite creatively depending on the author or genesis of the text. Anubandha chatushtaya is made up of these four items: + Adhikari + Vishaya + Phulam + Sambandha Adhikari in this context means "the student" or more generally, "the audience", who is this teaching for? Vishaya is the subject matter, and is always stated clearly up front. Phulam means literally "fruit" but in this context means the result or consequence from learning the subject matter. What can I do or what will I know once I know? Sambandha means the connection between the Vishaya and the Phulam. For example to learn cooking, one might find a cookbook. The Adhikari is the one who wants to learn to cook. The Vishaya of the cookbook is cooking. The Phulam is not to read a cookbook from cover to cover, but to actually know how to cook something good to eat. The Sambandha in this case is that if the Adhikari appropriately follows the recipes in the cookbook (Vishaya), using the appropriate ingredients and cooking utensils, pans etc. the Adhikari will be able to enjoy the cooked food (Phulam) as presented by recipes in cookbook. All texts must state the anubandha chatushtaya up front. But there's more to this, because the intro of the text just reveals the relevance of the subject matter, what about the adhikari? Similiarly there is a chatushtaya for the adhikari. That is called the Sadhana Chatushtaya. That means the four traits present in the adhikari. Sadhana in a religious sense means "spiritual practice" but more generally it can mean the state of mind or development of the student. I think you'll see once I've outlined it that it can be successfully applied more generally to all contexts. The four items in Sadhana Chatushtaya are + Viveka + Vairagya + Shatsampat + Mumukshutvam Viveka means "discrimination" in the Vedanta it is the ability to discern what is real from what is not. But more generally, it's the ability for someone to discern "I want to know something" or "this is interesting to me." For example, some car afficionados want to know all there is about Corvairs, but could care less about Cameros. There is viveka there, not at a very high level, but it is there, just the same. One might call it Chevrolet viveka. Vairagya means "dispassion." In a spiritual sense this has to do with having non-attachment to the world and its aversions or attractions. It has to do with maturity. More generally, we can agree that kids who are calm and naturally at ease will learn better than those that are distracted or upset. There is an openness in a student that possesses vairagya, but not a passive openness. Shatsampat is a little tricky to translate. It's sort of a shorthand that literally translates to "six virtues," and are considered necessary to bring equilibrium to the mind and emotions. These are +Shama, + Dama, + Uparati, + Titiksha, + Shraddha, + Samadhana. These traits relate to the innate (as-though) conduct of the student. It has to do with external conduct as well. The more external practice of a virtue, the more internally it anchors in the student, which has an appearance of being innate, when this appearance is rooted in maturity and development. The traits feed on themselves, because the more internalized the more external expression, etc. A virtuous cycle ensues. Shama roughly translates to tranquility. This is about temperment of mind. Some students shine with shama, they have ready minds and take little effort to teach. A student's temperament requires relative peace so her mind is available to learn. Everyone wants shama. If we don't have shama then we want dama. It pertains to calming of the senses. This has to do with the student's ability to disengage from excitement. In other words to pay attention and act appropriately even if they don't feel like it, it is a recognition of one's self control and a value for discipline. We practice dama until shama happens. Uparati literally means a resting state, but it pertains to withdrawl from opposites, an ability for reflection, that space between disengaging and engaging. To contrast, partisanship has no space for uparati, because to be partisan is to be grasping a side without an ability to let go, or else being averse to the other side with the same level of passion or distraction. Uparati is a kind of objectivity. Titiksha is forebearance. I love saying titiksha. It's a fun word to pronounce. Titiksha is when you have to make do with a difficult situation that you can't change, but you soldier on despite that. You change it if you can, but if you can't, you don't let that deter you. You let it go and carry on, and not with a stiff upper lip, but a relaxed one, because it is expressed without worry or tension. For example, let's say you plan to attend a lecture for which you've waited months to see. You get there early, to get a good seat, only to learn the lecturer is late, and the person sitting next to you is snapping chewing gum. A student with titiksha knows there's nothing to be done about the lecturer being late, but doesn't let it upset and may even tell himself, "This is just creating more wonderful anticipation!" As far as the snappy gumchewer, the student may decide to move to another spot, but if that's not possible, just ignore the neighbor, knowing that if he didn't, it would ruin the entire lecture that he waited months to hear. It's making the best of it. What you would do in this situation expresses your level of titiksha. We could all benefit from more titiksha right now, given the pandemic. Shraddha is "faith" but not as understood in a religious Christian sense. It is closer to "trust," or better, "faith pending verification." For example, when I attend a cooking class I have shraddha that I will learn cooking. I'm not going to learn how to change the flywheel of my transmission or how evaluate quadratic equations. Fractions maybe, but no algebra! I also trust the teacher has the ability to teach me cooking. Otherwise, why should I be in this class? That is what is meant by faith present in the adhikari. The last is Samadhana, and this pertains to focus. One's ability to concentrate and listen despite distractions. It's a little different than dama, in that it has to do with skill, but it can also have to do with preparedness to absorb what is being taught. What is interesting of course is how these six virtues in the adhikari will germinate and mature and contribute to more of the same the more they are practiced, whether consciously or not. The last connection necessary in the student is mumukshutwam, which means "desire for freedom". In the Vedanta this pertains to the desire to no longer suffer, but in a learning context it translates into being the person who is now more free from knowing than not knowing the topic. In this sense it means the desire for the fruit of knowing something, or a freedom from ignorance. If I learn how to drive my father's stickshift, I'll be able to take my friends to the movies. That is a kind of mumukshutwam. The student being appropriately prepared is like the earth being fertile enough to germinate the seeds. So adhikaritwam is very important in successful learning. If the student isn't ready, nothing works. The well-known aphorism "If the student is ready the teacher appears," does not just mean that a person who teaches materializes from thin air, but that the student's preparedness dictates the appropriate teacher for that particular student. The last sambandha here is the connection of the anubandha chatushtaya to the sadanam chatushtaya, which has to do with the student's ability to discern what does this learning have to do with me? It's kind of the space between all these traits or conditions that are required to be present for learning to take place. I feel that that is the emotional part, some of which is encapsulated in mumukshutwam. A trait, with proper handling by the teacher transforms into jignasu, which means "a desire to know" something. That desire is emotional. It is strong, like hunger. It's there or not there. If it isn't there, no learning can happen. I feel this is pretty comprehensive in defining how we humans learn and has not yet failed the test of time. Jignasu, in tandem with the teacher's ability to inspire it in the student might very well translate as your sputnik of learning! Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 3:56 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" [EXTERNAL] Annalisa-- There are four book titles in the previous posts on Gerald Edelman: "Bright Air, Brilliant Fire", which is a general introduction, and the trilogy of "Topobiology", "Neural Darwinism" and the "Remembered Present". Edelman won the Nobel Prize for work on immunoglobulins, and then got interested in a theory of consciousness based on a similar non-hierarchical understanding of the relationship of the parts to the whole in the nervous system. I remember hearing about it from his colleague Samir Zaki in London some time in the eighties. A lot of important academic lectures were open to the public back then. It kept me from reading the books for many years. I did read Nuthall's work, but it was many years ago, so I much appreciated your re-presentation, Annalisa. I will look again after class today, though. I do like Anthony's videos, but I find myself listening to them as I wash the dishes or tidy my study. Nikolai is often just giving Anthony raw Vygotsky in a "just between you and me" format. This I prefer to get studying Vygotsky in print A lot of music video done in lockdown has this "in your face" format too (no distracting camera movement, no panoramic shots of cheering audiences, and of course absolutely no CGI or narrative). I think in both cases the representational and textual content is much the same, but the emotional tenor is quite different. That is what I wanted to study in the 2007 paper, and I think it would have been greatly complicated by a practice effect if we'd presented the task three times. There were practical considerations too. As I said, most of the tasks were dramatic situations (in Nikolai's sense, in the sense of collision). For example, two boys have an arm-wrestling contest to see who will be able to take a girl to an amusement park in the textbook. When you do the same dramatic situation three times, you can't actually reverse it. We did reorganize this so that there was re-presentation of the task at three levels: eight boys wrestle in two pairs, then the four winners go to semi-finals, and finally two winners meet in finals. But Nikolai would say that it is no longer a dramatic collision, and I think that's right David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XRGUsPSEzA3Xc_-8XbMG7rfaBUS4vQeMdAM3aSOA1z6yWINkfHXl_VZfKTlCfbPe906NxA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XRGUsPSEzA3Xc_-8XbMG7rfaBUS4vQeMdAM3aSOA1z6yWINkfHXl_VZfKTlCfbNs1_UxbQ$ On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 3:05 AM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hi David, and venerable others paying a little bit of attention, I realize I'm come lately on this reply, as my life does exist extra-screen and off the keyboard now and then, despite sheltering in place. Let me clarify where I got the powers of three presentations. That was from following Phillip's links to Nuthall and reading his paper, hosted at New Zealand's Leaders in Education website. Nuthall if I can accept the paper on its face, experimentally established that when the students were presented with the object of knowledge (that's my phrase) three times they came to grasp it, they learned it. No, that's not presenting the SAME lesson three times, and I would have thought dear David you had more imagination than that. I presume you didn't read that paper, so you didn't get the reference, or rather there was a distorted reference. That's OK that happens to me many times with you various references to papers I haven't had the chance to read. So let me just clarify my reference. It's the material and how it is presented, three times. For example: Let's take "ABC" as the object to be known. (I say "known" and not "taught" very deliberately). If I tell you first, "I'm going to teach you ABC." Then I say, "A is the first letter; C is the third." Then later, "B is always in the middle." And then I say, "And by the way, CBA is backwards." I have basically presented the object of knowledge three times, and now you know ABC to be ABC. You have learned it. Perhaps this example is facile, but it is intended to illustrate what Nuthall learned and was able to replicate in the classroom. He also discovered that the experience of teachers had nothing to do with good learning outcomes. Doesn't this mean there is something biological going on (not totally, but an aspect that is determined in the dynamics of learning)? I think this makes a lot of sense because we can sometimes make out that experienced teachers are like genius artists. They were touched by the finger of God, and they just "know" how to teach students. That's a fallacy. There can be some experienced teachers who are just bad teachers repeating bad habits and producing students with bad learning outcomes. Perhaps it's better to say that bad teachers are fantastic at maintaining the ignorance of their students. This is not to diminish experience acquired from years of teaching, but just to point out what Nuthall learned. There is a methodology to learning, we call it teaching, but maybe our ontology is wrong. It's really learning that we need to focus upon and its dynamics. In a sense (as in sensing) this is determined, because we are biological creatures, after all. That is not said with intention to somehow limit us, because one of our traits as biological creatures is that WE LEARN. That's a beautiful thing. Knowledge is basically the sunlight that we reach toward and benefit from; it nourishes us. When we reflect this knowledge we become more than what we were before. There is an appearance (it is illusory) that what we learn is "in our heads." Just as cognition is not isolated to neuronal synapses in the brain, knowledge is not stored there either. Knowledge is "out there" and when we reflect it accurately then the object of knowledge is known. We basically become as the thing we come to know (that is, we reflect it), and then we build on that to become what I will call "better reflectors". This is what learning is. We polish the mirror until we shine. We do not add knowledge, rather we remove ignorance. In Sanskrit, "guru" means "one who removes ignorance." This has a very deep reference I feel is lost in the west, where, thanks to Descartes and his atoms, we see knowledge as a constructed product made of parts. As if we are essentially sharing recipes on how to make that product, passing secrets from one group to another, one generation to another, and while doing it we make some alterations that make the product *better,* which we then call technological advancement. (Have you driven a Ford lately?) This way of rending "products of knowledge" may support capitalism more than we realize, actually. Because we are in a universe that functions with certain laws, an apparent order, otherwise how does it all stay together and not fly apart at the seams, there is an outward structure we rely upon in rendering our cognitive strategies and their consequences. Hence distributed cognition. By outward, I mean beyond our physical bodies, though this border is permeable. I do not intend to say it is hard and immutable. There is a unification with the environment that lend itself as a means of knowledge (though perhaps I am not coming up with the right words to explain what I mean), between the person and the environment. Isn't that what an affordance is. The person *with* the environment. I suppose my take on all this is that we are not looking at affordances in their total manifestation. In this discussion, we seem to give purpose to culture and how it impacts thought (or minds), but then we cull culture out and then revert to (a habit of thinking about) embodied beings that are deterministic machines or computers (here we go with mutual superimposition again!), language being our software programs that run the our algorithms that produce an outcome in isolation from the environment in which we exist. That isn't how knowledge takes place. I maintain (and continue to do so) there is something worth knowing from the ancients. They have it right. All I'm pointing out is the science supports it, for those who are understandably skeptical. Also forgive me, however, I thought Giacomo Rizzolatti,Giuseppe Di Pellegrino, Luciano Fadiga, Leonardo Fogassi, and Vittoria Gallese at the Univerity of Parma were the ones to discover mirror neurons in the 80s and 90s in their experimentation on Macaque monkeys? I was not in any way referencing "Edelman's theory of re-entrant ("mirror") neurons," as David phrased it. I'm not sure what that even means, so I took to Wikipedia and searched for Edelman. I learned that there are many Edelmans in the world, or rather in Wikipedia, (500 pages worth!). I did find a book by Shimon Edelman called "Computing the Mind: How the Mind Really Works" (2008) and wondered if that is the same Edelman. If so, this just supports what I say above. We are just reproducing more Cartesian notions by using the computer-as-metaphor. To make it seem more "real" we add the word "really." It's only "really" in the sense of "real-ly" like "badly," "succinctly," or even "syrup-y" not to leave out nouns. That doesn't mean it's real. If it's not real, then it's an illusion, right? Sometimes reading a label that says "new and improved" doesn't mean it actually is "new" or "improved." Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:43 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" [EXTERNAL] Annalisa and Mike: The Good Lord loves and rewards stubborn persistence, Annalisa. I am not sure kids do, though--will they want to sit through the same presentation three times? Or do you simply mean we use three different presentations so that we can randomize the order? Of course, "sputnik" didn't mean a satellite for Vygotsky--the first Sputniks were launched just before I was born, about twenty years after Vygotsky died. When I first translated Vygotsky, I thought a "sputnik" was a kind of sattelite God, Hermes to Zeus, Hanuman to Ram, Athena to Odysseus. But I notice that Russians use "sputnik" to just mean something like "companion", a fellow traveler, or a playmate. So instead of a kind of guardian angel, emotion functions as a bosom companion, growing up as the child grows. I have--as usual--expressed myself rather poorly, Mike. (It will amuse you greatly to learn that I am teaching Communication this term!) When I said "represent" I did mean re-present. I actually meant exactly what Annalisa is describing. The teacher presents the task (usually a dramatic situation of some kind) to a small group of "group leaders" and they do an example before the class begins. Those group leaders then return to their groups and present the task to the groups. We did video the results, but I thought the product wasn't nearly as interesting as analyzing the process. Phillip: Halliday thought that Edelman's view of intelligence was the real biological foundation of his linguistics. And Annalisa is right, it did have a lot to do with Edelman's theory of re-entrant ("mirror") neurons. Andy has some trouble with the determinism of Vygotsky; I have a rather different problem with his hierarchical ideas of how functions are organized in a system. Edelman's books offer a pretty clear way out of that problem! On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 7:10 AM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: David, My stubborn persistence tells me that there is a way to bring in the dynamics of the pandemic crisis into your research design if we think about it long enough. If emotion is the sputnik, as you reasonably hypothesize, then how can you create opportunities for sputnik to launch? I maintain that this can be done with peer learning, because what counts is the cultural connection a student has with a peer compared to that cultural connection the student has with an instructor. Given in your description of social distancing, isn't there a way to compare and contrast learning that comes from "in person with social distancing" vis s vis learning that comes from "online learning"? What you describe in your study is not what I was proposing. I was proposing how a student learns from a peer presenting the object of learning compared to the way a teacher might. And to use online vs in person learning venues to compare and contrast what we might call the perezhivanie in the learning moment. If we might accept Nuthall's findings that learning happens when the underlying materials are presented at least three times, that should be a replicable structure that could bear fruit. It should be possible to determine and trace the emotional attachment that prevails in successful concept development. How about: * Have a control for presentations with underlying material offered three times (delivered via online learning?) * Have a presentation with socially distant teacher presenting three times. * Have a presentation with socially distant peer presenting three times. Note the differences and similarities, as well as effectiveness and even how quickly a concept is absorbed and mastered by the learner. What is the flaw in that design as you see it? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2020 3:26 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" [EXTERNAL] Annalisa: It's a great idea. But we are in the throes of "the dance" here in South Korea. Schools reopen. Then there's an outbreak. So the government closes schools again and we all go back into isolation for ten days. Then things reopen again, until the next outbreak. Even when schools are open, class size is greatly reduced, students are kept at least two meters apart and put in masks (we don't have those crazy hats that you see in China, but some schools use cubicles), and that would make it really hard to get peer teaching, much less collect data from peer teaching. We did do something like what you propose way back in 2007--we just looked at the difference between the way a teacher presented the task and the way that the task was represented to groups. Guk, I. and Kellogg, D. (2007). The ZPD and Whole Class Teaching: Teacher-led and Student-led Interactional Mediation in Tasks. Language Teaching Research 11,3 (2007); pp. 281?299 I suspect that if you read this study you will find it methodologically and even intellectually crude, particularly compared to what you propose, but for reasons I don't really understand it's the only thing we ever wrote that gets widely cited!) Phillip: Yes, ethnography would show precisely the kind of development we're interested in. But I think ethnography is better suited to studying stability than to studying crises. I get that crises are like anything else--they need to be highly contextured to be well textured. But because ethnography has a tendency to view the social and cultural and historical dimension exclusively through the language of the interpersonal, it's really hard to get genetic cross-sections that are broad enough and long enough to tell you how the system as a whole changes at "inflection points" (Joe Biden!) that are prepared for systematically precisely by those epochs we are naively thinking of as stable. (Ruqaiya Hasan's work was one of very few exceptions to this constraint....) For example. One of the most important responses to the crisis revealed by George Floyd's murder has been to argue that the protests are too easily hijacked as pretexts for violence (see, for example, Boris Johnson's recent remarks on the descecration of Winston Churchill's statue in Parliament Square in London). This assumes, weirdly, a widespread tendency towards unmotivated violence that I have never actually observed in any fellow human being. I am pretty sure that Boris Johnson could probably find someone to produce ethnographic evidence that it exists, but I am equally sure that he couldn't ever produce evidence that it is systemic. Without that evidence, there is no way to predict or explain the fire next time. Language stuff is not like this: every text is evidence of both the interpersonal and of what we are calling, non-redundantly, the socio-cultural. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XRGUsPSEzA3Xc_-8XbMG7rfaBUS4vQeMdAM3aSOA1z6yWINkfHXl_VZfKTlCfbPe906NxA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XRGUsPSEzA3Xc_-8XbMG7rfaBUS4vQeMdAM3aSOA1z6yWINkfHXl_VZfKTlCfbNs1_UxbQ$ On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 11:59 PM White, Phillip > wrote: rather than a test, David, perhaps a rigorous ethnography along the lines of what Graham Nuthall did - https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://researched.org.uk/graham-nuthall-educational-research-at-its-best/__;!!Mih3wA!XRGUsPSEzA3Xc_-8XbMG7rfaBUS4vQeMdAM3aSOA1z6yWINkfHXl_VZfKTlCfbOknq3Jlw$ Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best ? researchED Graham Nuthall: Educational research at its best 26th February 2019 / in February 2019 / by Jan Tishauser. Professor Emeritus Graham Nuthall, an educational researcher from New Zealand, is credited with one of the longest series of studies of teaching and learning in the classroom that has ever been carried out. A pioneer in his field, his ... researched.org.uk it was highly complex, but clearly from his finding emotions play a key role in concept formation. he died about 16 years ago. and oddly enough his work is still little appreciated. https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz/Pedagogy-and-assessment/Pedagogical-leadership/The-cultural-myths-and-realities-of-teaching-and-learning__;!!Mih3wA!XRGUsPSEzA3Xc_-8XbMG7rfaBUS4vQeMdAM3aSOA1z6yWINkfHXl_VZfKTlCfbP-fUPBUw$ The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning / Pedagogical leadership / Pedagogy and assessment / Home - Educational Leaders The cultural myths and realities of teaching and learning. by Graham Nuthall. Download this complete document (PDF 149 kB) Help with PDF files Overview. Graham Nuthall was Emeritus Professor of Education at the University of Canterbury in Christchurch. https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz__;!!Mih3wA!XRGUsPSEzA3Xc_-8XbMG7rfaBUS4vQeMdAM3aSOA1z6yWINkfHXl_VZfKTlCfbOArTBDew$ Nuthall had participated in some of xmca conversation. also, Gerard Edelman's work, which was the focus of an xmca conversation some time ago, points out that initials perceptions are initially sorted into one of two values - in layman's terms, like or dislike. which is of course an emotional response. Bright Air, Brilliant Fire: On the Matter of the Mind (Basic Books, 1992, Reprint edition 1993). ISBN 0-465-00764-3 in short, there are many ways of exploring student emotions i'd consider to be more reliable that trustworthy than tests. phillip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200618/5308fe51/attachment.html From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Thu Jun 18 07:12:37 2020 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:12:37 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Annalisa - i was hoping that someone - preferably male - would pick up on the arm wrestling and find it problematic - but you have - great! there is learning connected to arm-wrestling - and it's a recursive performance of hetero-normative masculinity - that men use power to decide - that men are active participants - women as passive - on the sidelines - sometimes they get to stamp their feet and attempt to intervene accusing the men of behaving like children - regardless, whether or not the men step back during the moment, their rivalry is the pivot point of multiple western civilisation narratives. what's really disturbing is that Veresov, who had been in early childhood education, appears to have no grasp of male gendered sexist relationships. so yes - you're right - this is a particular sexist lesson, and it's so normalised that a Vygotskian educator doesn't ever recognise it. i think that it is really important to recognise that Vygotsky's theories of development and learning can be applied by fascist and nazis and white supremacy, all forms of repression and authoritarianism. being a Vygotskian doesn't automatically mean one's enlightened. i think that this is especially pertinent during these times of Black Lives Matter and a fascist in the White House. phillip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200618/1eea8987/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Thu Jun 18 07:39:47 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 10:39:47 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Phillip, Let's remember: a slur is not an argument. It is, more often than not, merely a debasing of oneself. -Productive disagreement- Anthony On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 10:14 AM White, Phillip wrote: > Annalisa - i was hoping that someone - preferably male - would pick up on > the arm wrestling and find it problematic - but you have - great! > > there is learning connected to arm-wrestling - and it's a recursive > performance of hetero-normative masculinity - that men use power to decide > - that men are active participants - women as passive - on the sidelines - > sometimes they get to stamp their feet and attempt to intervene accusing > the men of behaving like children - regardless, whether or not the men step > back during the moment, their rivalry is the pivot point of multiple > western civilisation narratives. > > what's really disturbing is that Veresov, who had been in early childhood > education, appears to have no grasp of male gendered sexist relationships. > > so yes - you're right - this is a particular sexist lesson, and it's so > normalised that a Vygotskian educator doesn't ever recognise it. > > i think that it is really important to recognise that Vygotsky's theories > of development and learning can be applied by fascist and nazis and white > supremacy, all forms of repression and authoritarianism. being a > Vygotskian doesn't automatically mean one's enlightened. > > i think that this is especially pertinent during these times of Black > Lives Matter and a fascist in the White House. > > phillip > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200618/ebb696a1/attachment.html From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Thu Jun 18 07:48:20 2020 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:48:20 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: thank you Anthony - you're right. phillip ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Anthony Barra Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2020 8:39 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" Phillip, Let's remember: a slur is not an argument. It is, more often than not, merely a debasing of oneself. -Productive disagreement- Anthony On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 10:14 AM White, Phillip > wrote: Annalisa - i was hoping that someone - preferably male - would pick up on the arm wrestling and find it problematic - but you have - great! there is learning connected to arm-wrestling - and it's a recursive performance of hetero-normative masculinity - that men use power to decide - that men are active participants - women as passive - on the sidelines - sometimes they get to stamp their feet and attempt to intervene accusing the men of behaving like children - regardless, whether or not the men step back during the moment, their rivalry is the pivot point of multiple western civilisation narratives. what's really disturbing is that Veresov, who had been in early childhood education, appears to have no grasp of male gendered sexist relationships. so yes - you're right - this is a particular sexist lesson, and it's so normalised that a Vygotskian educator doesn't ever recognise it. i think that it is really important to recognise that Vygotsky's theories of development and learning can be applied by fascist and nazis and white supremacy, all forms of repression and authoritarianism. being a Vygotskian doesn't automatically mean one's enlightened. i think that this is especially pertinent during these times of Black Lives Matter and a fascist in the White House. phillip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200618/d9a7fa75/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Jun 18 08:27:12 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 08:27:12 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very important, Phillip. And very difficult for people to keep in mind. God's always on OUR side. "i think that it is really important to recognise that Vygotsky's theories of development and learning can be applied by fascist and nazis and white supremacy, all forms of repression and authoritarianism. being a Vygotskian doesn't automatically mean one's enlightened." mike On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 7:42 AM Anthony Barra wrote: > Phillip, > > Let's remember: a slur is not an argument. It is, more often than not, > merely a debasing of oneself. > > -Productive disagreement- > > Anthony > > > > On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 10:14 AM White, Phillip < > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: > >> Annalisa - i was hoping that someone - preferably male - would pick up on >> the arm wrestling and find it problematic - but you have - great! >> >> there is learning connected to arm-wrestling - and it's a recursive >> performance of hetero-normative masculinity - that men use power to decide >> - that men are active participants - women as passive - on the sidelines - >> sometimes they get to stamp their feet and attempt to intervene accusing >> the men of behaving like children - regardless, whether or not the men step >> back during the moment, their rivalry is the pivot point of multiple >> western civilisation narratives. >> >> what's really disturbing is that Veresov, who had been in early childhood >> education, appears to have no grasp of male gendered sexist relationships. >> >> so yes - you're right - this is a particular sexist lesson, and it's so >> normalised that a Vygotskian educator doesn't ever recognise it. >> >> i think that it is really important to recognise that Vygotsky's theories >> of development and learning can be applied by fascist and nazis and white >> supremacy, all forms of repression and authoritarianism. being a >> Vygotskian doesn't automatically mean one's enlightened. >> >> i think that this is especially pertinent during these times of Black >> Lives Matter and a fascist in the White House. >> >> phillip >> >> -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VLpe0PTveYDliqWsOw7QmjV6sDyBNjomg60hz-1ujoJs2nBMT9GS2vThgQZMJiVvx3E_hA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200618/d60d54d1/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jun 18 10:38:23 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 17:38:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Phillip, Mike, Anthony, David, and welcomed others, In sincerity, I was more interested in a comparison of a framework of understanding about learning and the mind of the student, than I was in arm wrestling. I appreciated the Nuthall paper, thanks for that Phillip. I had thought that it might interest folks on the list that there is a system in existence that discusses quite specifically what assists in learning. I'd thought there might be some curiousity about it. In it I recognize common points that correspond to Vygotsky's understanding of learning and development. In this system of anubandha, there is an analysis of relationships and connections. Generally, there is a sanctity concerning the relationship between the teacher and the student, which has been abolished in the present modern school systems. When I say sanctity I do not mean religious, or even spiritual. I mean a value that is not prosaic. I mean with regard to the responsibility that we have as a society to our youth to cultivate and nourish their learning. It's likely that that sense of sanctity has motivated many to become teachers in the first place. To serve the next generation. One point of comparison, in what I'm calling "the anubandha system," which descriptive, though could be prescriptive, learning leads development, just like for Vygotsky. I'm not promoting anubandha over Vygotsky. If there is a truth revealed in different systems, and different cultures, then it appears to confirm what is actually true. If you are saying that this system is fascist, please explain how that is. I don't see it. I do not see how anubandha has anything to do with fascism. We do know Vygotsky's work was not completed. He was reaching to Spinoza for answers near the end of his life concerning the role of emotion in learning. It's not *just* emotion. It's the quality of that emotion. I suggest the missing pieces are considered and explained in anubhanda chatushtaya. I've not really thought about this that deeply, though as of late, I have felt more motivated to do that. Fascism doesn't create sama, or uparati. It doesn't encourage inquiry and clearly fascism has no tolerance for doubt. Fascism is the antithesis of sama. I'm quite perplexed about the subtext of the thread which seems to have gone past me. Forgive me. I seem to hav shown myself to be dense about it. With that in mind, I might ask, please explain the Vygotsky-fascism connection. Also happy Juneteenth. Let's also celebrate the end of Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben on food products. I learned that Mars and Quaker food companies are removing those caricatures from their products. I'm curious with what new branding they will use to replace them. Even NASCAR has decided not to allow the draping of the confederate flag at their car races. Though as I write that, I'm recalling an article I saw yesterday of a long read in the NYT magazine, an interview with Jon Stewart. He claims all we do is fight about symbols rather than the actual issues. I'm inclined to agree: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/15/magazine/jon-stewart-interview.html__;!!Mih3wA!VJaEgtLKvGe_tzVU4Ycj3GjT0KAtbawX1LJ0YBnY8jI7jGpvcdn4xbhLk937acoLwn3XsQ$ I'm encouraged that Quaker, Mars and NASCAR are doing this, it's long overdue, but will taking down those symbols actually help us deal with the pernicious racism that is particular to American culture. I suppose another way to phrase it would be, Will censoring fascists remove fascist thinking and its reproduction from our culture? What symbols in our culture promote tranquility and objectivity? What symbols in our culture promote love and kindness? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2020 9:27 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" [EXTERNAL] Very important, Phillip. And very difficult for people to keep in mind. God's always on OUR side. "i think that it is really important to recognise that Vygotsky's theories of development and learning can be applied by fascist and nazis and white supremacy, all forms of repression and authoritarianism. being a Vygotskian doesn't automatically mean one's enlightened." mike On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 7:42 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: Phillip, Let's remember: a slur is not an argument. It is, more often than not, merely a debasing of oneself. -Productive disagreement- Anthony On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 10:14 AM White, Phillip > wrote: Annalisa - i was hoping that someone - preferably male - would pick up on the arm wrestling and find it problematic - but you have - great! there is learning connected to arm-wrestling - and it's a recursive performance of hetero-normative masculinity - that men use power to decide - that men are active participants - women as passive - on the sidelines - sometimes they get to stamp their feet and attempt to intervene accusing the men of behaving like children - regardless, whether or not the men step back during the moment, their rivalry is the pivot point of multiple western civilisation narratives. what's really disturbing is that Veresov, who had been in early childhood education, appears to have no grasp of male gendered sexist relationships. so yes - you're right - this is a particular sexist lesson, and it's so normalised that a Vygotskian educator doesn't ever recognise it. i think that it is really important to recognise that Vygotsky's theories of development and learning can be applied by fascist and nazis and white supremacy, all forms of repression and authoritarianism. being a Vygotskian doesn't automatically mean one's enlightened. i think that this is especially pertinent during these times of Black Lives Matter and a fascist in the White House. phillip -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VJaEgtLKvGe_tzVU4Ycj3GjT0KAtbawX1LJ0YBnY8jI7jGpvcdn4xbhLk937acrivaY95g$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200618/60db4450/attachment-0001.html From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jun 18 12:29:38 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 19:29:38 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Protest support information Message-ID: There is an article in the Intercept that discusses how to set up a burner phone if you go to a protest. Micah Lee is the presenter. The YouTube is worth watching. I do not plan to protest in the near future, but there is a lot of information in this article about privacy and phones that may be of general interest to folks. You know, along the lines of knowledge is power... https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theintercept.com/2020/06/15/protest-tech-safety-burner-phone/__;!!Mih3wA!QUil6ju1fJY4EhkhLWuUzWIQFyI_pEOImV2wL7TD8EBQY2JEYMGQckGD9fwYhFMMAEXQvw$ Kind regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200618/0e14daf7/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Jun 18 14:00:41 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 06:00:41 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Phillip: Arm wrestling is something that Korean children, male and female, do to resolve all kinds of disputes, sexist and not sexist. I think, if I remember correctly, the teacher who did the study used finger wrestling so that nobody would get hurt; I do rememberr that she had girls playing boys and boys playing girls. Arm wrestling is also part of the (mandatory) physical education curriculum for both boys and girls.That is why a team of teachers included it in the state-mandated textbook, written in 1997, the year that I arrived in Korea. The lessons are, for better or worse, not discretionary; every lesson in the state-mandated textbook must be used by every single elementary school class in the country. The year of the study is 2007 and I did not meet Nikolai Veresov for another seven years. Nikolai has never worked here in Korea. Moral education, which I would call broadly anti-sexist and in general more progressive than anything found in other countries where I have taught, is mandatory from kindergarten right up through graduate school (and in fact I am currently teaching a course called ????? ?? ("Professional Ethics and Human Personality"?) If anyone is actually interested in the moral/ethical content of Korean textbooks there's a pretty good article on it. Yong-Ho Kim & David Kellogg (2015) Rocks and other hard places: tracing ethical thinking in Korean and English dialog, Language and Education, 29:6, 493-508, DOI:10.1080/09500782.2015.1049616 To link to this article: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2015.1049616__;!!Mih3wA!T9JZvAO-gUflmKMcPH20wfrvTPkvFlHOaNpRGIuguGrtaMIrXjf4Mp1GLOfBLTbg_oi45g$ It is based on Ruqaiya Hasan's idea--that ideology is not merely an explicit content but rather encoded in grammar, e.g. the sentence Mood that some genders use in preference to others. (Yes, Anthony, it's Halliday, and I'd love to talk about it!) One last comment. Korea has been, and is still, an occupied country. American influence on the Korean educational system has been, to say the least, mercurial; it has involved, for example, purging progressive educators trained in the USA and replacing them with ones who were literally trained in Nazi Germany and it has also involved purging pro-Nazi educators and replacing them with supporters of John Dewey. The year we did the study there were mass demonstrations because American tanks ran over two middle school girls who were on their way to a birthday party. Many anti-racist and anti-sexist teachers here would like to see English removed from the curriculum altogether. Most would like to see all foreign influence on the curriculum eliminated, and that includes me (double meaning intended). David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!T9JZvAO-gUflmKMcPH20wfrvTPkvFlHOaNpRGIuguGrtaMIrXjf4Mp1GLOfBLTa01mPCEA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T9JZvAO-gUflmKMcPH20wfrvTPkvFlHOaNpRGIuguGrtaMIrXjf4Mp1GLOfBLTaWOCZm1g$ On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 11:14 PM White, Phillip wrote: > Annalisa - i was hoping that someone - preferably male - would pick up on > the arm wrestling and find it problematic - but you have - great! > > there is learning connected to arm-wrestling - and it's a recursive > performance of hetero-normative masculinity - that men use power to decide > - that men are active participants - women as passive - on the sidelines - > sometimes they get to stamp their feet and attempt to intervene accusing > the men of behaving like children - regardless, whether or not the men step > back during the moment, their rivalry is the pivot point of multiple > western civilisation narratives. > > what's really disturbing is that Veresov, who had been in early childhood > education, appears to have no grasp of male gendered sexist relationships. > > so yes - you're right - this is a particular sexist lesson, and it's so > normalised that a Vygotskian educator doesn't ever recognise it. > > i think that it is really important to recognise that Vygotsky's theories > of development and learning can be applied by fascist and nazis and white > supremacy, all forms of repression and authoritarianism. being a > Vygotskian doesn't automatically mean one's enlightened. > > i think that this is especially pertinent during these times of Black > Lives Matter and a fascist in the White House. > > phillip > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200619/1f6eaca2/attachment.html From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Fri Jun 19 07:17:48 2020 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 14:17:48 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: David - very contextualising background information - which i appreciate. do you think that there is a thread here in the activity of resolving disputes that 'might makes right' - reflecting on my initial response to Veresov, could have been an emotional sputnik - so much tension in the air these days here in denver - but i don't want to make excuses - i'm reminded on Nina Simone's song: Alabama's gotten me so upset Tennessee made me lose my rest And everybody knows about Mississippi goddam not just racism, but all isms have just gotten to me recently - and i'm missing the voices of twenty years ago - to mention just a few: Suzanne De Castle - Mary Bryson - Kathryn Alexander - Eva Ekablad, to mention just a few - of course, we've still got Peg - later - phillip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200619/01a96564/attachment.html From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Fri Jun 19 07:57:34 2020 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 14:57:34 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Annalisa - such a rich, complex text from you - though, as usual. i think that Nuthall's work reflects Bateson's cybernetic epistemology of learning as a very much reclusive activity - thought not as explicitly purposive as your example. and yes, we can't help but to learn - a continual process - whether painful or pleasurable - something we like or don't like - and stochastic in process - which is also one of Nuthall's point of illumination. and the Edelman you want is Gerald Edelman of Bright Air, Brilliant Fire. best, phillip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200619/bd17bf95/attachment.html From Peg.Griffin@att.net Fri Jun 19 09:04:02 2020 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 12:04:02 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <000201d64653$40a874e0$c1f95ea0$@att.net> Phillip, Your note on missing voices reminded me of Sandro Duranti once saying that he had gained ears. And it seems a propos of a good Juneteenth Day. So. Long ago and far away (from me right now at least), before xmca, even before xlchc maybe, in two funny temporary buildings in a little grove of a few trees with occasional ocean breezes and a picnic table and benches, there were a bunch of what some on the staff called "labbies," with lots of differences in academic standing, community culture, family race, nationality, and short and long term motives. We gathered and gave each other questions and occasional answers and lots of worrying and enjoying. Along came Sandro as a post doc. His family lived in LA and he stayed in San Diego for several days a week. After a month or so, he told us about a party he went to over the weekend when he was back in LA. As usual there were lots of local university faculty and students. He said it felt different for him, though. And he had finally pinned down what it was. He was listening with extra ears - ears from black and brown people who constituted a large portion of the lab, its taken for granted history, its day to day goings on. He heard things that needed to be countered, challenged, questioned, discussed - things that might have just passed by before but now seemed to be things that wouldn't be said had he been a person of color from the Lab. His extra ears gave him ideas, feelings, words and motives that he hadn't experienced before. Sandro is a gifted anthropologist, originally from Italy, with advanced degrees from the US. And a dear sweet man. Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 10:18 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" David - very contextualising background information - which i appreciate. do you think that there is a thread here in the activity of resolving disputes that 'might makes right' - reflecting on my initial response to Veresov, could have been an emotional sputnik - so much tension in the air these days here in denver - but i don't want to make excuses - i'm reminded on Nina Simone's song: Alabama's gotten me so upset Tennessee made me lose my rest And everybody knows about Mississippi goddam not just racism, but all isms have just gotten to me recently - and i'm missing the voices of twenty years ago - to mention just a few: Suzanne De Castle - Mary Bryson - Kathryn Alexander - Eva Ekablad, to mention just a few - of course, we've still got Peg - later - phillip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200619/169858f7/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Jun 19 09:40:26 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 09:40:26 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: <000201d64653$40a874e0$c1f95ea0$@att.net> References: <000201d64653$40a874e0$c1f95ea0$@att.net> Message-ID: Its a Bakhtinian moment, Peg, when when repressed voices bring back a national memory and the consciousness of a nation (consciousness as humans' relationship to nature and each other) has undergone a qualitative shift. Will it be papered over by future forgetting? Too soon to tell. If Juneteenth becomes a national holiday, it would be a very interesting shift in national memorializing and perhaps, even, race relations. For those like me who have inherited only a foggy notion of Juneteenth , the attached link might be helpful. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/*inbox/WhctKJVrDFZHHxRlWkntMlVkVGGMxhnSmgMtqSjmJRWnZRpQjsxLHhpHTlPVtsZRbGvGkBv__;Iw!!Mih3wA!URjX7UEtEjKC9GjF4K7CtoTq6JHOljqil1jLajq7UdsEwHQHmq3v1ap9-GQC2cDEuPmgLQ$ mike On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. wrote: > Phillip, > > Your note on missing voices reminded me of Sandro Duranti once saying that > he had gained ears. > > And it seems a propos of a good Juneteenth Day. So? > > > > Long ago and far away (from me right now at least), before xmca, even > before xlchc maybe, in two funny temporary buildings in a little grove of a > few trees with occasional ocean breezes and a picnic table and benches, > there were a bunch of what some on the staff called ?labbies,? with lots of > differences in academic standing, community culture, family race, > nationality, and short and long term motives. We gathered and gave each > other questions and occasional answers and lots of worrying and enjoying. > > Along came Sandro as a post doc. His family lived in LA and he stayed in > San Diego for several days a week. After a month or so, he told us about a > party he went to over the weekend when he was back in LA. As usual there > were lots of local university faculty and students. He said it felt > different for him, though. And he had finally pinned down what it was. > > He was listening with extra ears ? ears from black and brown people who > constituted a large portion of the lab, its taken for granted history, its > day to day goings on. He heard things that needed to be countered, > challenged, questioned, discussed ? things that might have just passed by > before but now seemed to be things that wouldn?t be said had he been a > person of color from the Lab. His extra ears gave him ideas, feelings, > words and motives that he hadn?t experienced before. > > Sandro is a gifted anthropologist, originally from Italy, with advanced > degrees from the US. And a dear sweet man. > > Peg > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *White, Phillip > *Sent:* Friday, June 19, 2020 10:18 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" > > > > David - very contextualising background information - which i appreciate. > do you think that there is a thread here in the activity of resolving > disputes that 'might makes right' - > > > > reflecting on my initial response to Veresov, could have been an emotional > sputnik - so much tension in the air these days here in denver - but i > don't want to make excuses - > > > > i'm reminded on Nina Simone's song: > > > > Alabama's gotten me so upset > Tennessee made me lose my rest > And everybody knows about Mississippi goddam > > > > not just racism, but all isms have just gotten to me recently - and i'm > missing the voices of twenty years ago - to mention just a few: Suzanne > De Castle - Mary Bryson - Kathryn Alexander - Eva Ekablad, to mention just > a few - of course, we've still got Peg - > > > > later - > > > > phillip > > > -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!URjX7UEtEjKC9GjF4K7CtoTq6JHOljqil1jLajq7UdsEwHQHmq3v1ap9-GQC2cBclOLiRw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200619/fb0bffe1/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jun 19 12:03:44 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 19:03:44 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: <000201d64653$40a874e0$c1f95ea0$@att.net>, Message-ID: Hello Phillip, Peg, Mike, and welcomed others, A Juneteenth federal holiday would be marvelous. I'm sure it could be as marvelous if not more than to have something as grand as a Thanksgiving Day Parade in every city. I like the idea of calling it Freedom Day (or even Liberation Day) as well, because that is a concept that everyone can value as something worth having. Apparently it used to be called Freedom Day once upon a time. --- Getting back to the original topic, I would like to voice my skepticism about negative and positive emotions and their role in learning. I believe that just emotion (whatever the quality) isn't something that "aids" learning. I think positive emotions are far more powerful in the registry of learning than negative ones. What I think is likely of consequence with negative emotions that accompany a "situation" for learning, likely has to do with trauma and survival. In other words, negative emotions do have a role and influence, but will wire into memory in a different way than positive ones would. This makes sense in terms of what we understand about PTSD and how it is that certain somatic reactions "bypass" conscious thought of the afflicted person after having suffered a traumatic experience (i.e., flashbacks). I think I understand more why Mike and Phillip have indicated the coupling of emotion and learning can be misused by fascists, etc. I don't exactly agree with this, but perhaps I'm not fully understanding the reference. There is something deeply different going on with learning that maps with negative vs positive emotions, though we might not yet be able to determine the "mechanics" of these processes and how they are different. I'm thinking about another article I read at the Intercept about facebook moderators. These are the digital turks of the Internet (No offense I hope to any Turks by using that phrase). https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theintercept.com/2020/06/18/facebook-moderator-ptsd-settlement-accenture/__;!!Mih3wA!XNTLGP4ko664qvzSyLs_cSQbCpJ6cjYSRXd-a8S1tTYir12Z7Kjok9JZT38ScSksDu_DMA$ Being exposed to negative imagery (that generates negative emotions) doesn't transform learning, it makes people unwell. If it were a neutral input (that it didn't matter if it were positive or negative), then people wouldn't be getting sick just from exposure to images. Something very different is going on. I sense that the next decades we will be learning more about the effects of trauma. That would be a good thing because it might also be instrumental in forging the means to prevent wars and other forms of group violence (genocide, refugee encampments, homelessness, other forms of deep, human suffering). Maybe we can also defund the Pentagon and put some of that money into diplomacy. Or even start that US Department of Peace that Congressman Kucinich had proposed once upon a time. As ever... I remain hopeful, kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 10:40 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" [EXTERNAL] Its a Bakhtinian moment, Peg, when when repressed voices bring back a national memory and the consciousness of a nation (consciousness as humans' relationship to nature and each other) has undergone a qualitative shift. Will it be papered over by future forgetting? Too soon to tell. If Juneteenth becomes a national holiday, it would be a very interesting shift in national memorializing and perhaps, even, race relations. For those like me who have inherited only a foggy notion of Juneteenth , the attached link might be helpful. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/*inbox/WhctKJVrDFZHHxRlWkntMlVkVGGMxhnSmgMtqSjmJRWnZRpQjsxLHhpHTlPVtsZRbGvGkBv__;Iw!!Mih3wA!XNTLGP4ko664qvzSyLs_cSQbCpJ6cjYSRXd-a8S1tTYir12Z7Kjok9JZT38ScSlFmwzl4Q$ mike On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: Phillip, Your note on missing voices reminded me of Sandro Duranti once saying that he had gained ears. And it seems a propos of a good Juneteenth Day. So? Long ago and far away (from me right now at least), before xmca, even before xlchc maybe, in two funny temporary buildings in a little grove of a few trees with occasional ocean breezes and a picnic table and benches, there were a bunch of what some on the staff called ?labbies,? with lots of differences in academic standing, community culture, family race, nationality, and short and long term motives. We gathered and gave each other questions and occasional answers and lots of worrying and enjoying. Along came Sandro as a post doc. His family lived in LA and he stayed in San Diego for several days a week. After a month or so, he told us about a party he went to over the weekend when he was back in LA. As usual there were lots of local university faculty and students. He said it felt different for him, though. And he had finally pinned down what it was. He was listening with extra ears ? ears from black and brown people who constituted a large portion of the lab, its taken for granted history, its day to day goings on. He heard things that needed to be countered, challenged, questioned, discussed ? things that might have just passed by before but now seemed to be things that wouldn?t be said had he been a person of color from the Lab. His extra ears gave him ideas, feelings, words and motives that he hadn?t experienced before. Sandro is a gifted anthropologist, originally from Italy, with advanced degrees from the US. And a dear sweet man. Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 10:18 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" David - very contextualising background information - which i appreciate. do you think that there is a thread here in the activity of resolving disputes that 'might makes right' - reflecting on my initial response to Veresov, could have been an emotional sputnik - so much tension in the air these days here in denver - but i don't want to make excuses - i'm reminded on Nina Simone's song: Alabama's gotten me so upset Tennessee made me lose my rest And everybody knows about Mississippi goddam not just racism, but all isms have just gotten to me recently - and i'm missing the voices of twenty years ago - to mention just a few: Suzanne De Castle - Mary Bryson - Kathryn Alexander - Eva Ekablad, to mention just a few - of course, we've still got Peg - later - phillip -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XNTLGP4ko664qvzSyLs_cSQbCpJ6cjYSRXd-a8S1tTYir12Z7Kjok9JZT38ScSkXnqrFbA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200619/af38b4c1/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Jun 19 13:40:12 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 05:40:12 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: <000201d64653$40a874e0$c1f95ea0$@att.net> Message-ID: Iju (my co-author) was a sardonic, even satirical teacher, and her kids, sixth graders, would feed on, feed back and greatly amplify her critical attitude to the texts. I remember her presenting a lesson about shopping to her kids by pointing to herself and telling the kids that she was a meandering, browsing, gatherer in the local shopping mall while her husband, alas, was a hunter who just goes for his kill and then scurries back to the lair. She then plaintively asked if the kids had time to go shopping with her, and the kids said something like "Teacher! Crisis! All bankrupt!". It was true--in the wake of the 2008 stock market collapse, the local shopping mall had gone out of business. Anyway, knowing her and her kids, I would not be surprised if the lesson on two boys arm-wrestling for the right to take a girl to an amusement park was presented to the kids as a parody of Korean rom-coms or a pastiche of Korean reality TV. So what Spinoza says about the "passions" is that they are the "affections" (modes? manners?) of the body which increase or decrease the power of activity "or the ideas thereof". The word "or" suggests either/or--a kind of dualism that sits poorly with Spinoza's monism ("Deus Sive Natura"--"God, in other words, Nature"). One way of elminating that "or" and the finger of salvation it extends to dualism is simply to replace it with "and" or "with". .The Edelman version of this is that consciousness arises from preconcepts in animals which enable learning--the experience and or along with the experience of having had an experience. He explains this by re-entrant neurons: neural networks which appear redundant in animals and even in infants (where the pain that makes the infant cry is really not easily distinguishable from the experience of having had the pain) and occur only because neural networks are not parsimonious and do not evolve to be. These neural networks turn out to be non-redundant as soon as true concepts arise, and true concepts are defined as being able to have the experience and to define it in terms of other experiences. Not a bad definition of "perezhivanie", no? My Friday classes on Communication tend to be rather like Iju's: I put on a sardonic, satirical, and somewhat self-deprecating persona and my students play a lively bunch of wise-cracking gym-rats and self-parodying mall-rats (and yes, the roles are largely self-cast by sex and by gender). Yesterday one of the liveiest mall-rats was missing because her grandfather had died (mourning is taken very seriously here). This was an "affection" that did not increase the power of the activity of the class body to act, and some of the usual wise-cracking of the class was obviously a somewhat forced compensation. But if negative emotion consistently debilitates rather than facilitates our capacity to act, why does tragedy have so much more currency in the verbal arts than comedy? Why, for that matter, is violence so much more permissible in the visual-illustrative arts than sex? David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Xf95FeVXta6Ev1a7tffa_sN6YaOIeTDyZ_D88QCnGdqlhAtReA1oY_kMjerse25ZW6viHg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Xf95FeVXta6Ev1a7tffa_sN6YaOIeTDyZ_D88QCnGdqlhAtReA1oY_kMjerse25ljFMnRQ$ On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 4:05 AM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello Phillip, Peg, Mike, and welcomed others, > > A Juneteenth federal holiday would be marvelous. I'm sure it could be as > marvelous if not more than to have something as grand as a Thanksgiving Day > Parade in every city. > > I like the idea of calling it Freedom Day (or even Liberation Day) as > well, because that is a concept that everyone can value as something worth > having. Apparently it used to be called Freedom Day once upon a time. > > --- > Getting back to the original topic, I would like to voice my skepticism > about negative and positive emotions and their role in learning. > > I believe that just emotion (whatever the quality) isn't something that > "aids" learning. I think positive emotions are far more powerful in the > registry of learning than negative ones. > > What I think is likely of consequence with negative emotions that > accompany a "situation" for learning, likely has to do with trauma and > survival. > > In other words, negative emotions do have a role and influence, but will > wire into memory in a different way than positive ones would. This makes > sense in terms of what we understand about PTSD and how it is that certain > somatic reactions "bypass" conscious thought of the afflicted person after > having suffered a traumatic experience (i.e., flashbacks). > > I think I understand more why Mike and Phillip have indicated the coupling > of emotion and learning can be misused by fascists, etc. > I don't exactly agree with this, but perhaps I'm not fully understanding > the reference. > > There is something deeply different going on with learning that maps with > negative vs positive emotions, though we might not yet be able to determine > the "mechanics" of these processes and how they are different. > > I'm thinking about another article I read at the Intercept about facebook > moderators. These are the digital turks of the Internet (No offense I hope > to any Turks by using that phrase). > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theintercept.com/2020/06/18/facebook-moderator-ptsd-settlement-accenture/__;!!Mih3wA!Xf95FeVXta6Ev1a7tffa_sN6YaOIeTDyZ_D88QCnGdqlhAtReA1oY_kMjerse24K_-FNzA$ > > > Being exposed to negative imagery (that generates negative emotions) > doesn't transform learning, it makes people unwell. If it were a neutral > input (that it didn't matter if it were positive or negative), then people > wouldn't be getting sick just from exposure to images. > > Something very different is going on. > > I sense that the next decades we will be learning more about the effects > of trauma. That would be a good thing because it might also be instrumental > in forging the means to prevent wars and other forms of group violence > (genocide, refugee encampments, homelessness, other forms of deep, human > suffering). > > Maybe we can also defund the Pentagon and put some of that money into > diplomacy. Or even start that US Department of Peace that Congressman > Kucinich had proposed once upon a time. > > As ever... I remain hopeful, > > kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > *Sent:* Friday, June 19, 2020 10:40 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Its a Bakhtinian moment, Peg, when when repressed voices bring back a > national memory > and the consciousness of a nation (consciousness as humans' relationship > to nature and each other) has > undergone a qualitative shift. Will it be papered over by future > forgetting? Too soon to tell. > > If Juneteenth becomes a national holiday, it would be a very interesting > shift in national memorializing and perhaps, > even, race relations. > > For those like me who have inherited only a foggy notion of Juneteenth , > the attached link might be helpful. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/*inbox/WhctKJVrDFZHHxRlWkntMlVkVGGMxhnSmgMtqSjmJRWnZRpQjsxLHhpHTlPVtsZRbGvGkBv__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Xf95FeVXta6Ev1a7tffa_sN6YaOIeTDyZ_D88QCnGdqlhAtReA1oY_kMjerse24JCazu9w$ > > > > mike > > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: > > Phillip, > > Your note on missing voices reminded me of Sandro Duranti once saying that > he had gained ears. > > And it seems a propos of a good Juneteenth Day. So? > > > > Long ago and far away (from me right now at least), before xmca, even > before xlchc maybe, in two funny temporary buildings in a little grove of a > few trees with occasional ocean breezes and a picnic table and benches, > there were a bunch of what some on the staff called ?labbies,? with lots of > differences in academic standing, community culture, family race, > nationality, and short and long term motives. We gathered and gave each > other questions and occasional answers and lots of worrying and enjoying. > > Along came Sandro as a post doc. His family lived in LA and he stayed in > San Diego for several days a week. After a month or so, he told us about a > party he went to over the weekend when he was back in LA. As usual there > were lots of local university faculty and students. He said it felt > different for him, though. And he had finally pinned down what it was. > > He was listening with extra ears ? ears from black and brown people who > constituted a large portion of the lab, its taken for granted history, its > day to day goings on. He heard things that needed to be countered, > challenged, questioned, discussed ? things that might have just passed by > before but now seemed to be things that wouldn?t be said had he been a > person of color from the Lab. His extra ears gave him ideas, feelings, > words and motives that he hadn?t experienced before. > > Sandro is a gifted anthropologist, originally from Italy, with advanced > degrees from the US. And a dear sweet man. > > Peg > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *White, Phillip > *Sent:* Friday, June 19, 2020 10:18 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" > > > > David - very contextualising background information - which i appreciate. > do you think that there is a thread here in the activity of resolving > disputes that 'might makes right' - > > > > reflecting on my initial response to Veresov, could have been an emotional > sputnik - so much tension in the air these days here in denver - but i > don't want to make excuses - > > > > i'm reminded on Nina Simone's song: > > > > Alabama's gotten me so upset > Tennessee made me lose my rest > And everybody knows about Mississippi goddam > > > > not just racism, but all isms have just gotten to me recently - and i'm > missing the voices of twenty years ago - to mention just a few: Suzanne > De Castle - Mary Bryson - Kathryn Alexander - Eva Ekablad, to mention just > a few - of course, we've still got Peg - > > > > later - > > > > phillip > > > > > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Xf95FeVXta6Ev1a7tffa_sN6YaOIeTDyZ_D88QCnGdqlhAtReA1oY_kMjerse27ohxArZA$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200620/39f740ec/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Fri Jun 19 16:50:31 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 19:50:31 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A contribution of value, I hope In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you to David Kellogg for weighing in on my Halliday/threshold-concept question! David, I've taken your answer, edited it a tad, and added some light annotations here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/6qf1qz__;!!Mih3wA!R1tuEz28TKCRX-z854TQcafClzwE-T5yfevnoxkw5DRwjpbz239rg0baB8eFK_R16hv7mQ$ Please let me know if anything needs changing; I don't want to publish any misinformation. Thank you again, Anthony On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 9:21 PM Anthony Barra wrote: > Thanks, David -- for the reply and for sharing the video. I hope it will > be useful. > > I've always thought of the Burkean parlor as a metaphorical place where > ideas get exchanged, sometimes combatively, sometimes while doing dishes or > tidying up, but more ideally (in my hopes) via productive conversation or > productive dialectic. But really, it wasn't really necessary for me to > include the Burke quote at all, as the proper emphasis should have been on > Nikolai's contributions. > > But I'm glad I did mention Burke's parlor, in that it sparked some > interesting replies, including your thought-provoking allusion to > Halliday. I like that you bring him up often! > > In fact . . . https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx3H5uAZIoI__;!!Mih3wA!R1tuEz28TKCRX-z854TQcafClzwE-T5yfevnoxkw5DRwjpbz239rg0baB8eFK_S3c1OFQQ$ (What do you > say? Can this be addressed to lay people - teachers especially - in like > 3-5 minutes or so?) > > Thank you again, > > Anthony > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 8:19 AM David Kellogg > wrote: > >> Anthony-- >> >> I shared it with my ex-grad. (I am marrying her in the fall--I mean, I'm >> marrying her to somebody else; when you are a professor in Korea, you are >> often called on to perform the actual ceremony, so long as you haven't had >> too many marriages of your own). She is doing a PhD in early years at the >> University of Regina in Canada, and she has the usual problem: you can't >> just ask questions about what the kids are thinking or saying or even >> doing, because the thing you are interested in studying isn't all there >> yet. Her super, selected on the same basis as we select people for wedding >> ceremonies here in Korea, is a successful questionnaire-and-survey person >> and doesn't see this is a problem. >> >> I think Burke's metaphor is really like studying a narwhal by analogy >> with a unicorn, or a dinosaur as a kind of Chinese dragon. Burke wants us >> to understand something real and concrete like the relationship between lit >> and crit simply by thinking of something completely unreal and >> impossible--a kind of academic pugilism where there is neither beginning >> nor end and nothing is at stake but "tenor". It's interesting that he uses >> the word "tenor" to describe seizing the tenets of an argument by >> grabbing one side or another rather than grasping the issue as a process >> from beginning to end. "Tenor" is the term Halliday uses to mean the >> interpersonal back-and-forth of a context as opposed to its >> representational or textual qualities. >> >> But doesn't Burke's metaphor really preclude what Nikolai describes so >> well in his video? As Nikolai says, you gotta start BEFORE the process is >> underway if you want to understand the process as a whole, you need to >> grasp it causally and dynamically and not just grab who's in >> and out; you need to consider the process as becoming something and not >> just being and being and being. All three of these conditions are >> explicitly denied by the Burkean parlor metaphor, aren't they? . >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!R1tuEz28TKCRX-z854TQcafClzwE-T5yfevnoxkw5DRwjpbz239rg0baB8eFK_TU0BlGVQ$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!R1tuEz28TKCRX-z854TQcafClzwE-T5yfevnoxkw5DRwjpbz239rg0baB8eFK_Q8QHppIQ$ >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 12:35 AM Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >>> In our 8th grade classroom, we have used Burke's (1941) "parlor" >>> metaphor to support work on literary themes, argumentation, media analysis, >>> role-playing, and class discussion: >>> >>> "Imagine that you enter a parlor. You come late. When you arrive, >>>> others have long preceded you, and they are engaged in a heated >>>> discussion, a discussion too heated for them to pause and tell you >>>> exactly what it is about. In fact, the discussion had already begun >>>> long before any of them got there, so that no one present is qualified >>>> to retrace for you all the steps that had gone before. You listen for >>>> a while, until you decide that you have caught the tenor of the >>>> argument; then you put in your oar. Someone answers you; you answer >>>> him; another comes to your defense; another aligns himself against >>>> you, to either the embarrassment or gratification of your opponent, >>>> depending upon the quality of your ally's assistance. However, the >>>> discussion is interminable. The hour grows late, you must depart. And you >>>> do depart, with the discussion still vigorously in progress." Kenneth >>>> Burke, *The Philosophy of Literary Form* >>> >>> >>> In 1996, Russell Hunt, Gordon Wells, and others had an interesting xmca >>> exchange on the topic of "Burke's Parlor," including Hunt's observation >>> that "Gordon's narrative, which I think I prefer to Burke's, leaves out the >>> agnostic character of the discussion: in Burke, writing in 1941, the >>> assumption was that the conversation HAD to be a contest." I don't think >>> it does. >>> >>> Whether contest, dialogue, dialectic, or mere background noise, I hope >>> this latest conversational turn is a contribution of value: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEK3JV1Ux_5WEs1bAjoH_AXCxFMVAF6bF__;!!Mih3wA!R1tuEz28TKCRX-z854TQcafClzwE-T5yfevnoxkw5DRwjpbz239rg0baB8eFK_Tm30CphA$ >>> >>> >>> >>> As a non-expert, I have been trying to learn in public, and I can >>> promise that your current or future students will find this helpful. If >>> this statement sounds reasonable, please feel free to share. >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> P.S. The two videos in the playlist are on the longer side; there was no >>> way around that. >>> While not a substitute, this collection of 2-3 minute snippets does >>> contain a fair amount of overlap: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEK3JV1Ux_5W2ZfG2I-J7prbfDUK_dIlo__;!!Mih3wA!R1tuEz28TKCRX-z854TQcafClzwE-T5yfevnoxkw5DRwjpbz239rg0baB8eFK_TeqLQu6g$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200619/04fd98ec/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Jun 19 17:35:14 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 09:35:14 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A contribution of value, I hope In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's great, Anthony--better than the original by half! N.B. "Meta-function" is a function-of-functions. So there is only ONE textual metafunction which INCLUDES functions like Theme (and subfunctions like "Topical Theme"). Thre is only ONE interpersonal metafunction, which INCLUDES functions like Mood (and subfunctions like Subject and Finite). There is only ONE ideational metafunction which INCLUDES functions like Participant (and subfunctions like Determiner, Epithet, Classifier, and Thing). I think you did the right thing in cutting to the classroom chase. But the link between Halliday and Vygotsky is sometimes made in pretty Polly-anna terms (hey, they both think social interaction is good for you). Halliday doesn't really have any use for the concept of "mind" (although he does use the concept of consciousness). Vygotsky doesn't really use the concept of metafunction (although he does distinguish between functions). To a lot of people, that suggests mutual repulsion; to me it suggests mutual dependency or at least very strong magnetism that Halliday would call "complementarity".. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QT8_RKuDxPBOPJ-QtyBofAJ4F7MYVLHeIIc4G8WzvkhAAL-lxLqWvlX_y6qIoKuLSFtKYQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QT8_RKuDxPBOPJ-QtyBofAJ4F7MYVLHeIIc4G8WzvkhAAL-lxLqWvlX_y6qIoKvalO6XMg$ On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 8:53 AM Anthony Barra wrote: > Thank you to David Kellogg for weighing in on my > Halliday/threshold-concept question! > > David, I've taken your answer, edited it a tad, and added some light > annotations here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/6qf1qz__;!!Mih3wA!QT8_RKuDxPBOPJ-QtyBofAJ4F7MYVLHeIIc4G8WzvkhAAL-lxLqWvlX_y6qIoKsmjk-uBw$ > > > Please let me know if anything needs changing; I don't want to publish any > misinformation. > > Thank you again, > > Anthony > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 9:21 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Thanks, David -- for the reply and for sharing the video. I hope it will >> be useful. >> >> I've always thought of the Burkean parlor as a metaphorical place where >> ideas get exchanged, sometimes combatively, sometimes while doing dishes or >> tidying up, but more ideally (in my hopes) via productive conversation or >> productive dialectic. But really, it wasn't really necessary for me to >> include the Burke quote at all, as the proper emphasis should have been on >> Nikolai's contributions. >> >> But I'm glad I did mention Burke's parlor, in that it sparked some >> interesting replies, including your thought-provoking allusion to >> Halliday. I like that you bring him up often! >> >> In fact . . . https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx3H5uAZIoI__;!!Mih3wA!QT8_RKuDxPBOPJ-QtyBofAJ4F7MYVLHeIIc4G8WzvkhAAL-lxLqWvlX_y6qIoKtvPLtQug$ >> >> (What do you say? Can this be addressed to lay people - teachers especially >> - in like 3-5 minutes or so?) >> >> Thank you again, >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 8:19 AM David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >>> Anthony-- >>> >>> I shared it with my ex-grad. (I am marrying her in the fall--I mean, I'm >>> marrying her to somebody else; when you are a professor in Korea, you are >>> often called on to perform the actual ceremony, so long as you haven't had >>> too many marriages of your own). She is doing a PhD in early years at the >>> University of Regina in Canada, and she has the usual problem: you can't >>> just ask questions about what the kids are thinking or saying or even >>> doing, because the thing you are interested in studying isn't all there >>> yet. Her super, selected on the same basis as we select people for wedding >>> ceremonies here in Korea, is a successful questionnaire-and-survey person >>> and doesn't see this is a problem. >>> >>> I think Burke's metaphor is really like studying a narwhal by analogy >>> with a unicorn, or a dinosaur as a kind of Chinese dragon. Burke wants us >>> to understand something real and concrete like the relationship between lit >>> and crit simply by thinking of something completely unreal and >>> impossible--a kind of academic pugilism where there is neither beginning >>> nor end and nothing is at stake but "tenor". It's interesting that he uses >>> the word "tenor" to describe seizing the tenets of an argument by >>> grabbing one side or another rather than grasping the issue as a process >>> from beginning to end. "Tenor" is the term Halliday uses to mean the >>> interpersonal back-and-forth of a context as opposed to its >>> representational or textual qualities. >>> >>> But doesn't Burke's metaphor really preclude what Nikolai describes so >>> well in his video? As Nikolai says, you gotta start BEFORE the process is >>> underway if you want to understand the process as a whole, you need to >>> grasp it causally and dynamically and not just grab who's in >>> and out; you need to consider the process as becoming something and not >>> just being and being and being. All three of these conditions are >>> explicitly denied by the Burkean parlor metaphor, aren't they? . >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QT8_RKuDxPBOPJ-QtyBofAJ4F7MYVLHeIIc4G8WzvkhAAL-lxLqWvlX_y6qIoKuLSFtKYQ$ >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QT8_RKuDxPBOPJ-QtyBofAJ4F7MYVLHeIIc4G8WzvkhAAL-lxLqWvlX_y6qIoKvalO6XMg$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 12:35 AM Anthony Barra >>> wrote: >>> >>>> In our 8th grade classroom, we have used Burke's (1941) "parlor" >>>> metaphor to support work on literary themes, argumentation, media analysis, >>>> role-playing, and class discussion: >>>> >>>> "Imagine that you enter a parlor. You come late. When you arrive, >>>>> others have long preceded you, and they are engaged in a heated >>>>> discussion, a discussion too heated for them to pause and tell you >>>>> exactly what it is about. In fact, the discussion had already begun >>>>> long before any of them got there, so that no one present is >>>>> qualified to retrace for you all the steps that had gone before. You >>>>> listen for a while, until you decide that you have caught the tenor >>>>> of the argument; then you put in your oar. Someone answers you; you >>>>> answer him; another comes to your defense; another aligns himself >>>>> against you, to either the embarrassment or gratification of your >>>>> opponent, depending upon the quality of your ally's assistance. >>>>> However, the discussion is interminable. The hour grows late, you >>>>> must depart. And you do depart, with the discussion still vigorously >>>>> in progress." Kenneth Burke, *The Philosophy of Literary Form* >>>> >>>> >>>> In 1996, Russell Hunt, Gordon Wells, and others had an interesting xmca >>>> exchange on the topic of "Burke's Parlor," including Hunt's observation >>>> that "Gordon's narrative, which I think I prefer to Burke's, leaves out the >>>> agnostic character of the discussion: in Burke, writing in 1941, the >>>> assumption was that the conversation HAD to be a contest." I don't think >>>> it does. >>>> >>>> Whether contest, dialogue, dialectic, or mere background noise, I hope >>>> this latest conversational turn is a contribution of value: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEK3JV1Ux_5WEs1bAjoH_AXCxFMVAF6bF__;!!Mih3wA!QT8_RKuDxPBOPJ-QtyBofAJ4F7MYVLHeIIc4G8WzvkhAAL-lxLqWvlX_y6qIoKuUUL_L9w$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As a non-expert, I have been trying to learn in public, and I can >>>> promise that your current or future students will find this helpful. If >>>> this statement sounds reasonable, please feel free to share. >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> Anthony >>>> >>>> P.S. The two videos in the playlist are on the longer side; there was >>>> no way around that. >>>> While not a substitute, this collection of 2-3 minute snippets does >>>> contain a fair amount of overlap: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEK3JV1Ux_5W2ZfG2I-J7prbfDUK_dIlo__;!!Mih3wA!QT8_RKuDxPBOPJ-QtyBofAJ4F7MYVLHeIIc4G8WzvkhAAL-lxLqWvlX_y6qIoKtx0sIXrA$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200620/d3130230/attachment.html From Peg.Griffin@att.net Fri Jun 19 18:27:00 2020 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 21:27:00 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: <000201d64653$40a874e0$c1f95ea0$@att.net> Message-ID: <000401d646a1$e628f090$b27ad1b0$@att.net> It is a Bakhtinian moment! In fact, I just realized when I read your note that intersectionality and intersectional allies call out for Bakhtin type thinking. I noticed an unusual pattern developing this week. While black organizations organized the Juneteenth rallies, marches, teach-ins, demonstrations that occurred all day (and some tomorrow), many different allied organizations used their own text lists and email lists to urge participation of their members and followers in the day?s events. The messages that were sent typically describe the day, give details about a half dozen of the events, and describe how the allied organization?s main purpose is consistent with celebrating Juneteenth because it is tied to achieving racial justice and/or the breakdown of white supremacy. From local groups (like one formed to get DC voting representation in the House and Senate) to international groups like Amnesty international, from groups focusing on the climate crisis to ones focusing on indigenous peoples and immigrants, from litigation groups like ACLU and SPLC to religious and arts groups and school/uni alumni. I asked anyone I chatted with about the texts/emails/social media they got the Juneteenth events this week and virtually everyone got at least a half dozen from surprising sources. For me, this is about avoiding ?future forgetting,? as you put it, Mike. What?s that saying about in variability there is hope? When Planned Parenthood, for instance, is telling people on its e-mail list about Juneteenth celebrations they can participate in, well, what can I say? Intersectionality and variability and hope, that?s what. Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 12:40 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" Its a Bakhtinian moment, Peg, when when repressed voices bring back a national memory and the consciousness of a nation (consciousness as humans' relationship to nature and each other) has undergone a qualitative shift. Will it be papered over by future forgetting? Too soon to tell. If Juneteenth becomes a national holiday, it would be a very interesting shift in national memorializing and perhaps, even, race relations. For those like me who have inherited only a foggy notion of Juneteenth , the attached link might be helpful. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/*inbox/WhctKJVrDFZHHxRlWkntMlVkVGGMxhnSmgMtqSjmJRWnZRpQjsxLHhpHTlPVtsZRbGvGkBv__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Wk9vHZWX_6-l7ECKZ5Oqr2oIMxtdz_TPVfSgKzQL1muwo87sDE19KsY7vB1bjoeBkoupmQ$ mike On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: Phillip, Your note on missing voices reminded me of Sandro Duranti once saying that he had gained ears. And it seems a propos of a good Juneteenth Day. So? Long ago and far away (from me right now at least), before xmca, even before xlchc maybe, in two funny temporary buildings in a little grove of a few trees with occasional ocean breezes and a picnic table and benches, there were a bunch of what some on the staff called ?labbies,? with lots of differences in academic standing, community culture, family race, nationality, and short and long term motives. We gathered and gave each other questions and occasional answers and lots of worrying and enjoying. Along came Sandro as a post doc. His family lived in LA and he stayed in San Diego for several days a week. After a month or so, he told us about a party he went to over the weekend when he was back in LA. As usual there were lots of local university faculty and students. He said it felt different for him, though. And he had finally pinned down what it was. He was listening with extra ears ? ears from black and brown people who constituted a large portion of the lab, its taken for granted history, its day to day goings on. He heard things that needed to be countered, challenged, questioned, discussed ? things that might have just passed by before but now seemed to be things that wouldn?t be said had he been a person of color from the Lab. His extra ears gave him ideas, feelings, words and motives that he hadn?t experienced before. Sandro is a gifted anthropologist, originally from Italy, with advanced degrees from the US. And a dear sweet man. Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu ] On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 10:18 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" David - very contextualising background information - which i appreciate. do you think that there is a thread here in the activity of resolving disputes that 'might makes right' - reflecting on my initial response to Veresov, could have been an emotional sputnik - so much tension in the air these days here in denver - but i don't want to make excuses - i'm reminded on Nina Simone's song: Alabama's gotten me so upset Tennessee made me lose my rest And everybody knows about Mississippi goddam not just racism, but all isms have just gotten to me recently - and i'm missing the voices of twenty years ago - to mention just a few: Suzanne De Castle - Mary Bryson - Kathryn Alexander - Eva Ekablad, to mention just a few - of course, we've still got Peg - later - phillip -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Wk9vHZWX_6-l7ECKZ5Oqr2oIMxtdz_TPVfSgKzQL1muwo87sDE19KsY7vB1bjodzJneDeA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200619/90ce57cc/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Fri Jun 19 19:02:05 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 12:02:05 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: <000401d646a1$e628f090$b27ad1b0$@att.net> References: <000201d64653$40a874e0$c1f95ea0$@att.net> <000401d646a1$e628f090$b27ad1b0$@att.net> Message-ID: <1f6626c3-e2f1-2fb9-10b3-530e6d1329d7@marxists.org> I shared with my friends a list which was sent me last weekend of all the protests being organised in New York that Saturday. The point was that there were dozens of them, all called by different sectional and special interest groups, "independently." This is the marker of a real movement, not a "campaign," but real change under way. :) andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 20/06/2020 11:27 am, Peg Griffin, Ph.D. wrote: > > It is a Bakhtinian moment!? In fact, I just realized when > I read your note that intersectionality and intersectional > allies call out for Bakhtin type thinking. > > I noticed an unusual pattern developing this week.? While > black organizations organized the Juneteenth rallies, > marches, teach-ins, demonstrations that occurred all day > (and some tomorrow), many different allied organizations > used their own text lists and email lists to urge > participation of their members and followers in the day?s > events. The messages that were sent typically describe the > day, give details about a half dozen of the events, and > describe how the allied organization?s main purpose is > consistent with celebrating Juneteenth because it is tied > to achieving racial justice and/or the breakdown of white > supremacy. ?From local groups (like one formed to get DC > voting representation in the House and Senate) to > international groups like Amnesty international, from > groups focusing on the climate crisis to ones focusing on > indigenous peoples and immigrants, from litigation groups > like ACLU and SPLC to religious and arts groups and > school/uni alumni. I asked anyone I chatted with about the > texts/emails/social media they got the Juneteenth events > this week and virtually everyone got at least a half dozen > from surprising sources. > > For me, this is about avoiding ?future forgetting,? as you > put it, Mike.? What?s that saying about in variability > there is hope?? When Planned Parenthood, for instance, is > telling people on its e-mail list about Juneteenth > celebrations they can participate in, well, what can I > say?? Intersectionality and variability and hope, that?s > what. > > Peg > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of > *mike cole > *Sent:* Friday, June 19, 2020 12:40 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" > > Its a Bakhtinian moment, Peg, when?when repressed voices > bring back a national memory > > and the consciousness of a nation (consciousness as > humans' relationship to nature and each other) has > > undergone a qualitative shift. Will it be papered over by > future forgetting? Too soon to tell. > > If Juneteenth becomes a national holiday, it would be a > very interesting shift in national memorializing and perhaps, > > even, race relations. > > For those like me who have inherited only a foggy notion > of Juneteenth , the attached link might be helpful. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/*inbox/WhctKJVrDFZHHxRlWkntMlVkVGGMxhnSmgMtqSjmJRWnZRpQjsxLHhpHTlPVtsZRbGvGkBv__;Iw!!Mih3wA!VxK9ZeAdaUf_T2PspBbWq_Pycs8zFF6T_nF88B8tJF_AihOBiTiN4Y-RoB1NP8GJxXiodQ$ > > > > mike > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > > wrote: > > Phillip, > > Your note on missing voices reminded me of Sandro > Duranti once saying that he had gained ears. > > And it seems a propos of a good Juneteenth Day.? So? > > Long ago and far away (from me right now at least), > before xmca,? even before xlchc maybe, in two funny > temporary buildings in a little grove of a few trees > with occasional ocean breezes and a picnic table and > benches, there were a bunch of what some on the staff > called ?labbies,? with lots of differences in academic > standing, community culture, family race, nationality, > and short and long term motives.? We gathered and gave > each other questions and occasional answers and lots > of worrying and enjoying. > > Along came Sandro as a post doc.? His family lived in > LA and he stayed in San Diego for several days a week. > After a month or so, he told us about a party he went > to over the weekend when he was back in LA.? As usual > there were lots of local university faculty and > students.? He said it felt different for him, though.? > And he had finally pinned down what it was. > > He was listening with extra ears ? ears from black and > brown people who constituted a large portion of the > lab, its taken for granted history, its day to day > goings on.? He heard things that needed to be > countered, challenged, questioned, discussed ? things > that might have just passed by before but now seemed > to be things that wouldn?t be said had he been a > person of color from the Lab.? His extra ears gave him > ideas, feelings, words and motives that he hadn?t > experienced before. > > Sandro is a gifted anthropologist, originally from > Italy, with advanced degrees from the US.? And a dear > sweet man. > > Peg > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > ] *On Behalf > Of *White, Phillip > *Sent:* Friday, June 19, 2020 10:18 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" > > David - very contextualising background information - > which i appreciate. ?do you think that there is a > thread here in the activity of resolving disputes that > 'might makes right' - > > reflecting on my initial response to Veresov, could > have been an emotional sputnik - so much tension in > the air these days here in denver - but i don't want > to make excuses - > > i'm reminded on Nina Simone's song: > > Alabama's gotten me so upset > Tennessee made me lose my rest > And everybody knows about Mississippi goddam > > not just racism, but all isms have just gotten to me > recently - ?and i'm missing the voices of twenty years > ago - to mention just a few: Suzanne De?Castle - Mary > Bryson - Kathryn Alexander - Eva Ekablad, to mention > just a few - of course, we've still got Peg - > > later - > > phillip > > > -- > > /Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under > similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same > tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and > oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same > fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens./// > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VxK9ZeAdaUf_T2PspBbWq_Pycs8zFF6T_nF88B8tJF_AihOBiTiN4Y-RoB1NP8Fyw0auxw$ > > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu > . > > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200620/f6b112fe/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jun 20 00:07:22 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 07:07:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: <000201d64653$40a874e0$c1f95ea0$@att.net> , Message-ID: David, and venerable others, Something is lost in this discussion of Spinoza's passions. David, might you actually post the quoted text from which you cite from Spinoza on "passions"? I found this on a wiki page on passions: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passions_(philosophy)*Spinoza__;Iw!!Mih3wA!SGJc5RblipQS4U_F8srduD0Khox8oYCflT2uL2w7adfAG4tgqXfcmjh4GaDF7jiuTj9DRg$ The seventeenth century Dutch philosopher Spinoza contrasted "action" with "passion," as well as the state of being "active" with the state of being "passive." A passion, in his view, happened when external events affect us partially such that we have confused ideas about these events and their causes. A "passive" state is when we experience an emotion which Spinoza regarded as a "passivity of the soul." The body's power is increased or diminished. Emotions are bodily changes plus ideas about these changes which can help or hurt a human. It happens when the bodily changes we experience are caused primarily by external forces or by a mix of external and internal forces. Spinoza argued that it was much better for the individual himself to be the only adequate cause of bodily changes, and to act based on an adequate understanding of causes-and-effects with ideas of these changes logically related to each other and to reality. When this happened the person is "active," and Spinoza described the ideas as adequate. But most of the time, this does not happen, and Spinoza, along with Freud, saw emotions as more powerful than reason. Spinoza tried to live the life of reason which he advocated. ---- And from here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinozism__;!!Mih3wA!SGJc5RblipQS4U_F8srduD0Khox8oYCflT2uL2w7adfAG4tgqXfcmjh4GaDF7jiFrGwuxA$ "...when Spinoza wrote 'Deus sive Natura' ('God or Nature') Spinoza meant God was Natura naturans not Natura naturata, that is, 'a dynamic nature in action, growing and changing, not a passive or static thing.'" If Spinoza rejected Descartes's dualism, and he did, then what you are missing from your description of Spinoza's passions, David, is the substance that united the body and the mind. This substance was in the world, not just "in" people. Unless I am mistaken, Spinoza saw this substance as God making humans a part of, yet unified with, the immanent world (nature and God being the same), because all things within the universe are attributes and modes of the substance. I am cautiously writing that, as I can't check my Spinoza books right now. When someone says, "You can call me David or Dave" the words are not referencing different people. Isn't this "or" in "God or Nature" referencing different names for the same entity? When Spinoza says "God or Nature," either of these words reference the same substance. This superimposition of God upon Nature was metonymical, to illustrate that God manifests from itself, as we observe nature generating itself within nature itself. Interestingly, Spinoza's monism isn't so far from the Advaita (Sanskrit for "non-dual") model. But listen to that --> [ >!!< ] <-- It's the sound of splitting hairs, with an important distinction: Monism is to say there is one, but in order to have one, one must have the ability to have an inside and and outside to count "one." In contrast, non-dual is to mean "one without a second." meaning there is no inside nor outside; there are no edges, no limits, no distinctions. It's all Brahman (which is Sanskrit for "the big"). I do not recall where time and space reside in Spinoza's model, but in the non-dual model, time and space are contained inside the non-dual, meaning the "one without a second" is outside time and space, and therefore limitless. It seems for Spinoza's definition of this substance, it relies upon self-conceiving. There is a teaching illustration in Vedanta of the spider that creates a web from itself. I think this is what Spinoza had in mind when he discusses self-conceiving. In other words he rejected a conception of God that was likened to Zeus throwing thunderbolts from the heavens and making the earth like throwing donuts into hot oil. God in that conception was separate from nature, like the watchmaker is separate from the watch. This is definition of an immanent God was, why he was called an atheist. Go figure. Anyway, in this unified vision of the immanent world, if Spinoza saw the body as partaking in physical activity, he also saw ideas as a different kind of activity, mental activity. Passions were e-motions untempered and could lead one astray. His view was one should monitor these passions with reason. In addition, practicing virtues would reduce the passions. (It's not that different from anubandha) Cause and effect. In that way Spinoza was deterministic, and maybe that is why Vygotsky was a shade that too. To reply to your question why we have more violence out there than sex? I'd say that it's sensationalism. Societies can control its people by inciting the "passions." People are kept from their own counsel and inner/reflective dialogue if they are in constant stimulation of fight or flight, or to include sex into the equation we might group all of that (sex (and violence) and drugs and rock and roll) as "arousal." That isn't our homeostatic baseline to be in perpetual arousal. If so, then why do we sleep? Why do all the poets talk about the sublime in nature? Why even have the words "peace" or "tranquility" in a language at all? What do those words point to in our experiences? Where you say: ...if negative emotion consistently debilitates rather than facilitates our capacity to act, why does tragedy have so much more currency in the verbal arts than comedy? Why, for that matter, is violence so much more permissible in the visual-illustrative arts than sex? If there is a prevalence of inciting negative emotions in any society to an extreme, I don't think the society and the people within it will last very long. Just consider where there are war-torn countries, famine, etc. Yet in places where positive emotions are more prevalent, the people are happier, live longer, have a better quality of life. It's pretty obvious. If you say that tragedy has more currency than comedy, it's because we want to understand tragedy so that we might know how to survive it. We do not want to be subject to tragedy. It is a threat to us. Laughter isn't a threat to our existence. It needs no understanding to overcome it. Even watching Macbeth or King Lear has to happen in a quiet theater. I'd add that violence is more permissive than sex because violence creates fear and "educates" the people about the levers of power. That isn't learning. On the other hand, sex, being pleasurable, must be controlled in a society that trades in currency of violence, but also where gender roles are well-defined and there is no blurring of the lines within those "norms." It's all about control. In cultures where violence is not so prevalent, sex does tend to be more freely expressed, so it depends upon what society you are referencing. Both sex and violence are what Spinoza referenced as the passions because they have the power to disturb to the point of a person losing their reason, a highly undesirable state in Spinoza's estimation. Regardless, I'm not sure that there is any "learning" in the way we want to talk about learning, when there is incitement of passions, whether sex or violence. I maintain that the optimum learning environments are those that are peaceful and reflective with minimal distractions. The student and teacher must feel relatively safe in their interactions with one another. Consider how academic freedom is being pilloried in our universities with so many non-tenured, contingent instructors. The kind of learning that we are biologically hardwired to do cannot happen if the environment for learning is distorted and deformed (with unregulated passions, Spinoza might add). Getting back to nature, plants simply cannot grow without water and fertile soil. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 2:40 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" [EXTERNAL] Iju (my co-author) was a sardonic, even satirical teacher, and her kids, sixth graders, would feed on, feed back and greatly amplify her critical attitude to the texts. I remember her presenting a lesson about shopping to her kids by pointing to herself and telling the kids that she was a meandering, browsing, gatherer in the local shopping mall while her husband, alas, was a hunter who just goes for his kill and then scurries back to the lair. She then plaintively asked if the kids had time to go shopping with her, and the kids said something like "Teacher! Crisis! All bankrupt!". It was true--in the wake of the 2008 stock market collapse, the local shopping mall had gone out of business. Anyway, knowing her and her kids, I would not be surprised if the lesson on two boys arm-wrestling for the right to take a girl to an amusement park was presented to the kids as a parody of Korean rom-coms or a pastiche of Korean reality TV. So what Spinoza says about the "passions" is that they are the "affections" (modes? manners?) of the body which increase or decrease the power of activity "or the ideas thereof". The word "or" suggests either/or--a kind of dualism that sits poorly with Spinoza's monism ("Deus Sive Natura"--"God, in other words, Nature"). One way of elminating that "or" and the finger of salvation it extends to dualism is simply to replace it with "and" or "with". .The Edelman version of this is that consciousness arises from preconcepts in animals which enable learning--the experience and or along with the experience of having had an experience. He explains this by re-entrant neurons: neural networks which appear redundant in animals and even in infants (where the pain that makes the infant cry is really not easily distinguishable from the experience of having had the pain) and occur only because neural networks are not parsimonious and do not evolve to be. These neural networks turn out to be non-redundant as soon as true concepts arise, and true concepts are defined as being able to have the experience and to define it in terms of other experiences. Not a bad definition of "perezhivanie", no? My Friday classes on Communication tend to be rather like Iju's: I put on a sardonic, satirical, and somewhat self-deprecating persona and my students play a lively bunch of wise-cracking gym-rats and self-parodying mall-rats (and yes, the roles are largely self-cast by sex and by gender). Yesterday one of the liveiest mall-rats was missing because her grandfather had died (mourning is taken very seriously here). This was an "affection" that did not increase the power of the activity of the class body to act, and some of the usual wise-cracking of the class was obviously a somewhat forced compensation. But if negative emotion consistently debilitates rather than facilitates our capacity to act, why does tragedy have so much more currency in the verbal arts than comedy? Why, for that matter, is violence so much more permissible in the visual-illustrative arts than sex? David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SGJc5RblipQS4U_F8srduD0Khox8oYCflT2uL2w7adfAG4tgqXfcmjh4GaDF7jjWInoNyg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SGJc5RblipQS4U_F8srduD0Khox8oYCflT2uL2w7adfAG4tgqXfcmjh4GaDF7jg6D9q4JQ$ On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 4:05 AM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello Phillip, Peg, Mike, and welcomed others, A Juneteenth federal holiday would be marvelous. I'm sure it could be as marvelous if not more than to have something as grand as a Thanksgiving Day Parade in every city. I like the idea of calling it Freedom Day (or even Liberation Day) as well, because that is a concept that everyone can value as something worth having. Apparently it used to be called Freedom Day once upon a time. --- Getting back to the original topic, I would like to voice my skepticism about negative and positive emotions and their role in learning. I believe that just emotion (whatever the quality) isn't something that "aids" learning. I think positive emotions are far more powerful in the registry of learning than negative ones. What I think is likely of consequence with negative emotions that accompany a "situation" for learning, likely has to do with trauma and survival. In other words, negative emotions do have a role and influence, but will wire into memory in a different way than positive ones would. This makes sense in terms of what we understand about PTSD and how it is that certain somatic reactions "bypass" conscious thought of the afflicted person after having suffered a traumatic experience (i.e., flashbacks). I think I understand more why Mike and Phillip have indicated the coupling of emotion and learning can be misused by fascists, etc. I don't exactly agree with this, but perhaps I'm not fully understanding the reference. There is something deeply different going on with learning that maps with negative vs positive emotions, though we might not yet be able to determine the "mechanics" of these processes and how they are different. I'm thinking about another article I read at the Intercept about facebook moderators. These are the digital turks of the Internet (No offense I hope to any Turks by using that phrase). https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theintercept.com/2020/06/18/facebook-moderator-ptsd-settlement-accenture/__;!!Mih3wA!SGJc5RblipQS4U_F8srduD0Khox8oYCflT2uL2w7adfAG4tgqXfcmjh4GaDF7jhZYtBxpQ$ Being exposed to negative imagery (that generates negative emotions) doesn't transform learning, it makes people unwell. If it were a neutral input (that it didn't matter if it were positive or negative), then people wouldn't be getting sick just from exposure to images. Something very different is going on. I sense that the next decades we will be learning more about the effects of trauma. That would be a good thing because it might also be instrumental in forging the means to prevent wars and other forms of group violence (genocide, refugee encampments, homelessness, other forms of deep, human suffering). Maybe we can also defund the Pentagon and put some of that money into diplomacy. Or even start that US Department of Peace that Congressman Kucinich had proposed once upon a time. As ever... I remain hopeful, kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 10:40 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" [EXTERNAL] Its a Bakhtinian moment, Peg, when when repressed voices bring back a national memory and the consciousness of a nation (consciousness as humans' relationship to nature and each other) has undergone a qualitative shift. Will it be papered over by future forgetting? Too soon to tell. If Juneteenth becomes a national holiday, it would be a very interesting shift in national memorializing and perhaps, even, race relations. For those like me who have inherited only a foggy notion of Juneteenth , the attached link might be helpful. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/*inbox/WhctKJVrDFZHHxRlWkntMlVkVGGMxhnSmgMtqSjmJRWnZRpQjsxLHhpHTlPVtsZRbGvGkBv__;Iw!!Mih3wA!SGJc5RblipQS4U_F8srduD0Khox8oYCflT2uL2w7adfAG4tgqXfcmjh4GaDF7jiIobV5Kg$ mike On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: Phillip, Your note on missing voices reminded me of Sandro Duranti once saying that he had gained ears. And it seems a propos of a good Juneteenth Day. So? Long ago and far away (from me right now at least), before xmca, even before xlchc maybe, in two funny temporary buildings in a little grove of a few trees with occasional ocean breezes and a picnic table and benches, there were a bunch of what some on the staff called ?labbies,? with lots of differences in academic standing, community culture, family race, nationality, and short and long term motives. We gathered and gave each other questions and occasional answers and lots of worrying and enjoying. Along came Sandro as a post doc. His family lived in LA and he stayed in San Diego for several days a week. After a month or so, he told us about a party he went to over the weekend when he was back in LA. As usual there were lots of local university faculty and students. He said it felt different for him, though. And he had finally pinned down what it was. He was listening with extra ears ? ears from black and brown people who constituted a large portion of the lab, its taken for granted history, its day to day goings on. He heard things that needed to be countered, challenged, questioned, discussed ? things that might have just passed by before but now seemed to be things that wouldn?t be said had he been a person of color from the Lab. His extra ears gave him ideas, feelings, words and motives that he hadn?t experienced before. Sandro is a gifted anthropologist, originally from Italy, with advanced degrees from the US. And a dear sweet man. Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 10:18 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" David - very contextualising background information - which i appreciate. do you think that there is a thread here in the activity of resolving disputes that 'might makes right' - reflecting on my initial response to Veresov, could have been an emotional sputnik - so much tension in the air these days here in denver - but i don't want to make excuses - i'm reminded on Nina Simone's song: Alabama's gotten me so upset Tennessee made me lose my rest And everybody knows about Mississippi goddam not just racism, but all isms have just gotten to me recently - and i'm missing the voices of twenty years ago - to mention just a few: Suzanne De Castle - Mary Bryson - Kathryn Alexander - Eva Ekablad, to mention just a few - of course, we've still got Peg - later - phillip -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!SGJc5RblipQS4U_F8srduD0Khox8oYCflT2uL2w7adfAG4tgqXfcmjh4GaDF7jiawuansg$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200620/84df197d/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Sat Jun 20 08:53:24 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 11:53:24 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A contribution of value, I hope In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ok, good to hear. You should tell people to watch it! ? On Friday, June 19, 2020, David Kellogg wrote: > It's great, Anthony--better than the original by half! > > N.B. "Meta-function" is a function-of-functions. So there is only ONE > textual metafunction which INCLUDES functions like Theme (and subfunctions > like "Topical Theme"). Thre is only ONE interpersonal metafunction, which > INCLUDES functions like Mood (and subfunctions like Subject and Finite). > There is only ONE ideational metafunction which INCLUDES functions like > Participant (and subfunctions like Determiner, Epithet, Classifier, and > Thing). > > I think you did the right thing in cutting to the classroom chase. But the > link between Halliday and Vygotsky is sometimes made in pretty Polly-anna > terms (hey, they both think social interaction is good for you). Halliday > doesn't really have any use for the concept of "mind" (although he does use > the concept of consciousness). Vygotsky doesn't really use the concept of > metafunction (although he does distinguish between functions). To a lot of > people, that suggests mutual repulsion; to me it suggests mutual dependency > or at least very strong magnetism that Halliday would call > "complementarity".. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RHx1axijAuRzPI0wROfpqBO5ilSx-pwihdMoGjfPbrdt2QqsTwI6dGu8nxmP5deYiralIw$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RHx1axijAuRzPI0wROfpqBO5ilSx-pwihdMoGjfPbrdt2QqsTwI6dGu8nxmP5dfjWMnA5g$ > > > > > On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 8:53 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Thank you to David Kellogg for weighing in on my >> Halliday/threshold-concept question! >> >> David, I've taken your answer, edited it a tad, and added some light >> annotations here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/6qf1qz__;!!Mih3wA!RHx1axijAuRzPI0wROfpqBO5ilSx-pwihdMoGjfPbrdt2QqsTwI6dGu8nxmP5dcRrTZUAw$ >> >> >> Please let me know if anything needs changing; I don't want to publish >> any misinformation. >> >> Thank you again, >> >> Anthony >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 9:21 PM Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks, David -- for the reply and for sharing the video. I hope it will >>> be useful. >>> >>> I've always thought of the Burkean parlor as a metaphorical place where >>> ideas get exchanged, sometimes combatively, sometimes while doing dishes or >>> tidying up, but more ideally (in my hopes) via productive conversation or >>> productive dialectic. But really, it wasn't really necessary for me to >>> include the Burke quote at all, as the proper emphasis should have been on >>> Nikolai's contributions. >>> >>> But I'm glad I did mention Burke's parlor, in that it sparked some >>> interesting replies, including your thought-provoking allusion to >>> Halliday. I like that you bring him up often! >>> >>> In fact . . . https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx3H5uAZIoI__;!!Mih3wA!RHx1axijAuRzPI0wROfpqBO5ilSx-pwihdMoGjfPbrdt2QqsTwI6dGu8nxmP5dc9gWIpPQ$ >>> >>> (What do you say? Can this be addressed to lay people - teachers especially >>> - in like 3-5 minutes or so?) >>> >>> Thank you again, >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 8:19 AM David Kellogg >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Anthony-- >>>> >>>> I shared it with my ex-grad. (I am marrying her in the fall--I mean, >>>> I'm marrying her to somebody else; when you are a professor in Korea, you >>>> are often called on to perform the actual ceremony, so long as you haven't >>>> had too many marriages of your own). She is doing a PhD in early years at >>>> the University of Regina in Canada, and she has the usual problem: you >>>> can't just ask questions about what the kids are thinking or saying or even >>>> doing, because the thing you are interested in studying isn't all there >>>> yet. Her super, selected on the same basis as we select people for wedding >>>> ceremonies here in Korea, is a successful questionnaire-and-survey person >>>> and doesn't see this is a problem. >>>> >>>> I think Burke's metaphor is really like studying a narwhal by analogy >>>> with a unicorn, or a dinosaur as a kind of Chinese dragon. Burke wants us >>>> to understand something real and concrete like the relationship between lit >>>> and crit simply by thinking of something completely unreal and >>>> impossible--a kind of academic pugilism where there is neither beginning >>>> nor end and nothing is at stake but "tenor". It's interesting that he uses >>>> the word "tenor" to describe seizing the tenets of an argument by >>>> grabbing one side or another rather than grasping the issue as a process >>>> from beginning to end. "Tenor" is the term Halliday uses to mean the >>>> interpersonal back-and-forth of a context as opposed to its >>>> representational or textual qualities. >>>> >>>> But doesn't Burke's metaphor really preclude what Nikolai describes so >>>> well in his video? As Nikolai says, you gotta start BEFORE the process is >>>> underway if you want to understand the process as a whole, you need to >>>> grasp it causally and dynamically and not just grab who's in >>>> and out; you need to consider the process as becoming something and not >>>> just being and being and being. All three of these conditions are >>>> explicitly denied by the Burkean parlor metaphor, aren't they? . >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RHx1axijAuRzPI0wROfpqBO5ilSx-pwihdMoGjfPbrdt2QqsTwI6dGu8nxmP5deYiralIw$ >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RHx1axijAuRzPI0wROfpqBO5ilSx-pwihdMoGjfPbrdt2QqsTwI6dGu8nxmP5dfjWMnA5g$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 12:35 AM Anthony Barra >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> In our 8th grade classroom, we have used Burke's (1941) "parlor" >>>>> metaphor to support work on literary themes, argumentation, media analysis, >>>>> role-playing, and class discussion: >>>>> >>>>> "Imagine that you enter a parlor. You come late. When you arrive, >>>>>> others have long preceded you, and they are engaged in a heated >>>>>> discussion, a discussion too heated for them to pause and tell you >>>>>> exactly what it is about. In fact, the discussion had already begun >>>>>> long before any of them got there, so that no one present is >>>>>> qualified to retrace for you all the steps that had gone before. You >>>>>> listen for a while, until you decide that you have caught the tenor >>>>>> of the argument; then you put in your oar. Someone answers you; you >>>>>> answer him; another comes to your defense; another aligns himself >>>>>> against you, to either the embarrassment or gratification of your >>>>>> opponent, depending upon the quality of your ally's assistance. >>>>>> However, the discussion is interminable. The hour grows late, you >>>>>> must depart. And you do depart, with the discussion still vigorously >>>>>> in progress." Kenneth Burke, *The Philosophy of Literary Form* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In 1996, Russell Hunt, Gordon Wells, and others had an interesting >>>>> xmca exchange on the topic of "Burke's Parlor," including Hunt's >>>>> observation that "Gordon's narrative, which I think I prefer to Burke's, >>>>> leaves out the agnostic character of the discussion: in Burke, writing in >>>>> 1941, the assumption was that the conversation HAD to be a contest." I >>>>> don't think it does. >>>>> >>>>> Whether contest, dialogue, dialectic, or mere background noise, I hope >>>>> this latest conversational turn is a contribution of value: >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEK3JV1Ux___;!!Mih3wA!RHx1axijAuRzPI0wROfpqBO5ilSx-pwihdMoGjfPbrdt2QqsTwI6dGu8nxmP5ddhajiu2w$ >>>>> 5WEs1bAjoH_AXCxFMVAF6bF >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> As a non-expert, I have been trying to learn in public, and I can >>>>> promise that your current or future students will find this helpful. If >>>>> this statement sounds reasonable, please feel free to share. >>>>> >>>>> Thank you, >>>>> >>>>> Anthony >>>>> >>>>> P.S. The two videos in the playlist are on the longer side; there was >>>>> no way around that. >>>>> While not a substitute, this collection of 2-3 minute snippets does >>>>> contain a fair amount of overlap: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube__;!!Mih3wA!RHx1axijAuRzPI0wROfpqBO5ilSx-pwihdMoGjfPbrdt2QqsTwI6dGu8nxmP5ddIDneE1Q$ . >>>>> com/playlist?list=PLEK3JV1Ux_5W2ZfG2I-J7prbfDUK_dIlo >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200620/a77038e4/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Jun 20 13:08:28 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 05:08:28 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: <000201d64653$40a874e0$c1f95ea0$@att.net> Message-ID: Right, Annalisa--here's the original, from the definitions at the outset of Chapter III of Ethiika III. Per affectum intelligo corporis affectiones quibus ipsius corporis agendi potentia augetur vel minuitur, juvatur vel coercetur et simul harum affectionum ideas. Si itaque alicujus harum affectionum ad?quata possimus esse causa, tum per affectum actionem intelligo, alias passionem. ("By emotions, I understand affections of the body which augment or diminish, enhance or coerce the potential of a body to act, and at the same time the ideas of those affections. If of these affections we may be the adequate cause, I understand by them active emotions, otherwise passive (i.e. "passions" in the sense of "Passion of the Christ")." So I remembered it wrong (I thought I had this tattooed--my Latin isn't what it used to be). Annalisa is essentially right: it's not "or"--it's "and". And of course because Spinoza is a militant one-worlder, we know that he's talking about "idea" and "agendi potentia" as two modes of the same thing: it's a unitary concept and not a complex. Nevertheless, you can see that LSVs distinction between tools and signs is there in the form of whether or not the emotion has the self as adequate cause or the environment. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QE51vMcQ1OLOEMZScEAYQM4cSPYt3OFR1MGebHoyTHX-9G0RR76PAallN9iL4r98KaXT7w$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QE51vMcQ1OLOEMZScEAYQM4cSPYt3OFR1MGebHoyTHX-9G0RR76PAallN9iL4r_Zi4Q2iQ$ On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 4:09 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > David, and venerable others, > > Something is lost in this discussion of Spinoza's passions. > > David, might you actually post the quoted text from which you cite from > Spinoza on "passions"? > > I found this on a wiki page on passions: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passions_(philosophy)*Spinoza__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QE51vMcQ1OLOEMZScEAYQM4cSPYt3OFR1MGebHoyTHX-9G0RR76PAallN9iL4r9_wKOqHA$ > > > The seventeenth century Dutch philosopher Spinoza contrasted "action" with > "passion," as well as the state of being "active" with the state of being > "passive." A passion, in his view, happened when external events affect us > partially such that we have confused ideas about these events and their > causes. A "passive" state is when we experience an emotion which Spinoza > regarded as a "passivity of the soul." The body's power is increased or > diminished. Emotions are bodily changes plus ideas about these changes > which can help or hurt a human. It happens when the bodily changes we > experience are caused primarily by external forces or by a mix of external > and internal forces. Spinoza argued that it was much better for the > individual himself to be the only adequate cause of bodily changes, and to > act based on an adequate understanding of causes-and-effects with ideas of > these changes logically related to each other and to reality. When this > happened the person is "active," and Spinoza described the ideas as > adequate. But most of the time, this does not happen, and Spinoza, along > with Freud, saw emotions as more powerful than reason. Spinoza tried to > live the life of reason which he advocated. > > > ---- > And from here: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinozism__;!!Mih3wA!QE51vMcQ1OLOEMZScEAYQM4cSPYt3OFR1MGebHoyTHX-9G0RR76PAallN9iL4r_kw7T7KQ$ > > > "...when Spinoza wrote '*Deus sive Natura*' ('God or Nature') Spinoza > meant God was *Natura naturans* not *Natura naturata*, that is, 'a > dynamic nature in action, growing and changing, not a passive or static > thing.'" > > > If Spinoza rejected Descartes's dualism, and he did, then what you are > missing from your description of Spinoza's passions, David, is the > substance that united the body and the mind. This substance was in the > world, not just "in" people. Unless I am mistaken, Spinoza saw this > substance as God making humans a part of, yet unified with, the immanent > world (nature and God being the same), because all things within the > universe are attributes and modes of the substance. I am cautiously writing > that, as I can't check my Spinoza books right now. > > When someone says, "You can call me David or Dave" the words are not > referencing different people. Isn't this "or" in "God or Nature" > referencing different names for the same entity? When Spinoza says "God or > Nature," either of these words reference the same substance. > > This superimposition of God upon Nature was metonymical, to illustrate > that God manifests from itself, as we observe nature generating itself > within nature itself. > > Interestingly, Spinoza's monism isn't so far from the Advaita (Sanskrit > for "non-dual") model. > > But listen to that --> [ >!!< ] <-- It's the sound of splitting hairs, > with an important distinction: > > Monism is to say there is one, but in order to have one, one must have the > ability to have an inside and and outside to count "one." In contrast, > non-dual is to mean "one without a second." meaning there is no inside nor > outside; there are no edges, no limits, no distinctions. It's all Brahman > (which is Sanskrit for "the big"). > > I do not recall where time and space reside in Spinoza's model, but in the > non-dual model, time and space are contained inside the non-dual, meaning > the "one without a second" is outside time and space, and therefore > limitless. > > It seems for Spinoza's definition of this substance, it relies upon > self-conceiving. There is a teaching illustration in Vedanta of the spider > that creates a web from itself. I think this is what Spinoza had in mind > when he discusses self-conceiving. In other words he rejected a conception > of God that was likened to Zeus throwing thunderbolts from the heavens and > making the earth like throwing donuts into hot oil. God in that conception > was separate from nature, like the watchmaker is separate from the watch. > This is definition of an immanent God was, why he was called an atheist. Go > figure. > > Anyway, in this unified vision of the immanent world, if Spinoza saw the > body as partaking in physical activity, he also saw ideas as a different > kind of activity, mental activity. > > Passions were e-motions untempered and could lead one astray. His view was > one should monitor these passions with reason. In addition, practicing > virtues would reduce the passions. (It's not that different from anubandha) > > Cause and effect. In that way Spinoza was deterministic, and maybe that is > why Vygotsky was a shade that too. > > To reply to your question why we have more violence out there than sex? > I'd say that it's sensationalism. > > Societies can control its people by inciting the "passions." People are > kept from their own counsel and inner/reflective dialogue if they are in > constant stimulation of fight or flight, or to include sex into the > equation we might group all of that (sex (and violence) and drugs and rock > and roll) as "arousal." > > That isn't our homeostatic baseline to be in perpetual arousal. If so, > then why do we sleep? Why do all the poets talk about the sublime in > nature? Why even have the words "peace" or "tranquility" in a language at > all? What do those words point to in our experiences? > > Where you say: > > *...if negative emotion consistently debilitates rather than facilitates > our capacity to act, why does tragedy have so much more currency in the > verbal arts than comedy? Why, for that matter, is violence so much more > permissible in the visual-illustrative arts than sex?* > > > If there is a prevalence of inciting negative emotions in any society to > an extreme, I don't think the society and the people within it will last > very long. Just consider where there are war-torn countries, famine, etc. > Yet in places where positive emotions are more prevalent, the people are > happier, live longer, have a better quality of life. > > It's pretty obvious. > > If you say that tragedy has more currency than comedy, it's because we > want to understand tragedy so that we might know how to survive it. We do > not want to be subject to tragedy. It is a threat to us. Laughter isn't a > threat to our existence. It needs no understanding to overcome it. > > Even watching Macbeth or King Lear has to happen in a quiet theater. > > I'd add that violence is more permissive than sex because violence creates > fear and "educates" the people about the levers of power. That isn't > learning. > > On the other hand, sex, being pleasurable, must be controlled in a society > that trades in currency of violence, but also where gender roles are > well-defined and there is no blurring of the lines within those "norms." > > It's all about control. > > In cultures where violence is not so prevalent, sex does tend to be more > freely expressed, so it depends upon what society you are referencing. Both > sex and violence are what Spinoza referenced as the passions because they > have the power to disturb to the point of a person losing their reason, a > highly undesirable state in Spinoza's estimation. > > Regardless, I'm not sure that there is any "learning" in the way we want > to talk about learning, when there is incitement of passions, whether sex > or violence. > > I maintain that the optimum learning environments are those that are > peaceful and reflective with minimal distractions. The student and teacher > must feel relatively safe in their interactions with one another. > > Consider how academic freedom is being pilloried in our universities with > so many non-tenured, contingent instructors. > > The kind of learning that we are biologically hardwired to do cannot > happen if the environment for learning is distorted and deformed (with > unregulated passions, Spinoza might add). > > Getting back to nature, plants simply cannot grow without water and > fertile soil. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > *Sent:* Friday, June 19, 2020 2:40 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Iju (my co-author) was a sardonic, even satirical teacher, and her kids, > sixth graders, would feed on, feed back and greatly amplify her critical > attitude to the texts. I remember her presenting a lesson about shopping to > her kids by pointing to herself and telling the kids that she was a > meandering, browsing, gatherer in the local shopping mall while her > husband, alas, was a hunter who just goes for his kill and then scurries > back to the lair. She then plaintively asked if the kids had time to go > shopping with her, and the kids said something like "Teacher! Crisis! All > bankrupt!". It was true--in the wake of the 2008 stock market collapse, the > local shopping mall had gone out of business. Anyway, knowing her and her > kids, I would not be surprised if the lesson on two boys arm-wrestling > for the right to take a girl to an amusement park was presented to the kids > as a parody of Korean rom-coms or a pastiche of Korean reality TV. > > So what Spinoza says about the "passions" is that they are the > "affections" (modes? manners?) of the body which increase or decrease the > power of activity "or the ideas thereof". The word "or" suggests > either/or--a kind of dualism that sits poorly with Spinoza's monism ("Deus > Sive Natura"--"God, in other words, Nature"). One way of elminating that > "or" and the finger of salvation it extends to dualism is simply to replace > it with "and" or "with". .The Edelman version of this is that consciousness > arises from preconcepts in animals which enable learning--the experience > and or along with the experience of having had an experience. He explains > this by re-entrant neurons: neural networks which appear redundant in > animals and even in infants (where the pain that makes the infant cry is > really not easily distinguishable from the experience of having had the > pain) and occur only because neural networks are not parsimonious and do > not evolve to be. These neural networks turn out to be non-redundant as > soon as true concepts arise, and true concepts are defined as being able to > have the experience and to define it in terms of other experiences. Not a > bad definition of "perezhivanie", no? > > My Friday classes on Communication tend to be rather like Iju's: I put on > a sardonic, satirical, and somewhat self-deprecating persona and my > students play a lively bunch of wise-cracking gym-rats and self-parodying > mall-rats (and yes, the roles are largely self-cast by sex and by gender). > Yesterday one of the liveiest mall-rats was missing because her grandfather > had died (mourning is taken very seriously here). This was an "affection" > that did not increase the power of the activity of the class body to act, > and some of the usual wise-cracking of the class was obviously a somewhat > forced compensation. But if negative emotion consistently debilitates > rather than facilitates our capacity to act, why does tragedy have so much > more currency in the verbal arts than comedy? Why, for that matter, is > violence so much more permissible in the visual-illustrative arts than sex? > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QE51vMcQ1OLOEMZScEAYQM4cSPYt3OFR1MGebHoyTHX-9G0RR76PAallN9iL4r98KaXT7w$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QE51vMcQ1OLOEMZScEAYQM4cSPYt3OFR1MGebHoyTHX-9G0RR76PAallN9iL4r_Zi4Q2iQ$ > > > > > On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 4:05 AM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hello Phillip, Peg, Mike, and welcomed others, > > A Juneteenth federal holiday would be marvelous. I'm sure it could be as > marvelous if not more than to have something as grand as a Thanksgiving Day > Parade in every city. > > I like the idea of calling it Freedom Day (or even Liberation Day) as > well, because that is a concept that everyone can value as something worth > having. Apparently it used to be called Freedom Day once upon a time. > > --- > Getting back to the original topic, I would like to voice my skepticism > about negative and positive emotions and their role in learning. > > I believe that just emotion (whatever the quality) isn't something that > "aids" learning. I think positive emotions are far more powerful in the > registry of learning than negative ones. > > What I think is likely of consequence with negative emotions that > accompany a "situation" for learning, likely has to do with trauma and > survival. > > In other words, negative emotions do have a role and influence, but will > wire into memory in a different way than positive ones would. This makes > sense in terms of what we understand about PTSD and how it is that certain > somatic reactions "bypass" conscious thought of the afflicted person after > having suffered a traumatic experience (i.e., flashbacks). > > I think I understand more why Mike and Phillip have indicated the coupling > of emotion and learning can be misused by fascists, etc. > I don't exactly agree with this, but perhaps I'm not fully understanding > the reference. > > There is something deeply different going on with learning that maps with > negative vs positive emotions, though we might not yet be able to determine > the "mechanics" of these processes and how they are different. > > I'm thinking about another article I read at the Intercept about facebook > moderators. These are the digital turks of the Internet (No offense I hope > to any Turks by using that phrase). > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theintercept.com/2020/06/18/facebook-moderator-ptsd-settlement-accenture/__;!!Mih3wA!QE51vMcQ1OLOEMZScEAYQM4cSPYt3OFR1MGebHoyTHX-9G0RR76PAallN9iL4r8Cnp43vw$ > > > Being exposed to negative imagery (that generates negative emotions) > doesn't transform learning, it makes people unwell. If it were a neutral > input (that it didn't matter if it were positive or negative), then people > wouldn't be getting sick just from exposure to images. > > Something very different is going on. > > I sense that the next decades we will be learning more about the effects > of trauma. That would be a good thing because it might also be instrumental > in forging the means to prevent wars and other forms of group violence > (genocide, refugee encampments, homelessness, other forms of deep, human > suffering). > > Maybe we can also defund the Pentagon and put some of that money into > diplomacy. Or even start that US Department of Peace that Congressman > Kucinich had proposed once upon a time. > > As ever... I remain hopeful, > > kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > *Sent:* Friday, June 19, 2020 10:40 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Its a Bakhtinian moment, Peg, when when repressed voices bring back a > national memory > and the consciousness of a nation (consciousness as humans' relationship > to nature and each other) has > undergone a qualitative shift. Will it be papered over by future > forgetting? Too soon to tell. > > If Juneteenth becomes a national holiday, it would be a very interesting > shift in national memorializing and perhaps, > even, race relations. > > For those like me who have inherited only a foggy notion of Juneteenth , > the attached link might be helpful. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/*inbox/WhctKJVrDFZHHxRlWkntMlVkVGGMxhnSmgMtqSjmJRWnZRpQjsxLHhpHTlPVtsZRbGvGkBv__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QE51vMcQ1OLOEMZScEAYQM4cSPYt3OFR1MGebHoyTHX-9G0RR76PAallN9iL4r9xXVb3zg$ > > > > mike > > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: > > Phillip, > > Your note on missing voices reminded me of Sandro Duranti once saying that > he had gained ears. > > And it seems a propos of a good Juneteenth Day. So? > > > > Long ago and far away (from me right now at least), before xmca, even > before xlchc maybe, in two funny temporary buildings in a little grove of a > few trees with occasional ocean breezes and a picnic table and benches, > there were a bunch of what some on the staff called ?labbies,? with lots of > differences in academic standing, community culture, family race, > nationality, and short and long term motives. We gathered and gave each > other questions and occasional answers and lots of worrying and enjoying. > > Along came Sandro as a post doc. His family lived in LA and he stayed in > San Diego for several days a week. After a month or so, he told us about a > party he went to over the weekend when he was back in LA. As usual there > were lots of local university faculty and students. He said it felt > different for him, though. And he had finally pinned down what it was. > > He was listening with extra ears ? ears from black and brown people who > constituted a large portion of the lab, its taken for granted history, its > day to day goings on. He heard things that needed to be countered, > challenged, questioned, discussed ? things that might have just passed by > before but now seemed to be things that wouldn?t be said had he been a > person of color from the Lab. His extra ears gave him ideas, feelings, > words and motives that he hadn?t experienced before. > > Sandro is a gifted anthropologist, originally from Italy, with advanced > degrees from the US. And a dear sweet man. > > Peg > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *White, Phillip > *Sent:* Friday, June 19, 2020 10:18 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" > > > > David - very contextualising background information - which i appreciate. > do you think that there is a thread here in the activity of resolving > disputes that 'might makes right' - > > > > reflecting on my initial response to Veresov, could have been an emotional > sputnik - so much tension in the air these days here in denver - but i > don't want to make excuses - > > > > i'm reminded on Nina Simone's song: > > > > Alabama's gotten me so upset > Tennessee made me lose my rest > And everybody knows about Mississippi goddam > > > > not just racism, but all isms have just gotten to me recently - and i'm > missing the voices of twenty years ago - to mention just a few: Suzanne > De Castle - Mary Bryson - Kathryn Alexander - Eva Ekablad, to mention just > a few - of course, we've still got Peg - > > > > later - > > > > phillip > > > > > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QE51vMcQ1OLOEMZScEAYQM4cSPYt3OFR1MGebHoyTHX-9G0RR76PAallN9iL4r-ngEf_Tg$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200621/bf77ceff/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Jun 20 13:36:34 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 05:36:34 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] What Are Halliday's "Magic Gateways"? Message-ID: You know, nothing is quite as complicated as trying to be simple about something complex. So Anthony wanted me to talk about a "threshold concept" in Halliday, and even gave me chapter and verse about what this might involve. https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/6qf1qz__;!!Mih3wA!UeTMSuYY3iGYNI80NGkgVW3vksPeX6xhNqXG1qffMzIs4RXePyHwgPaQtDiL036-cVpFhg$ Halliday was, first and foremost, a teacher like you and me. That's why he rejected the whole distinction between grammar and vocabulary, it's how he ended up involved in the Chinese revolution, it's why he asked--and even answered--teacherly questions like "How big is a language?" (depends on where you are and where you are going, but it can be calculated) and "Does Chomsky's distinction between surface and deep structure help you teach or learn anything at all?" (no) and "What is 'difficulty' and how much of it can we blame on the text rather than the child?" (it depends on how willing you are to divorce the text from the child's understanding of it). I think that precisely because he was a teacher like you and me, he wouldn't have liked the concept of "threshold concept": a single "aha" moment that retrospectively transforms the way you think about a whole domain like language. Yet in another sense, precisely because he was a teacher like you and me, he inisisted on free choice (yes, with consent!) as the organizing principle of lexicogrammar ("grammar-and-vocabulary", where the "and" is to be understood in a fully Spinozan way). So he sees child development as a series of magic gateways--the differentiation of meaningful choices, some of which are more meaningful than others. The most meaningful one is not "that gateway"--the one you are looking back upon in satisfaction--but "this gateway"--the one you find yourself on the threshold of. The magic is simply in the fact that you know that beyond that gateway there are even greater gateways. Or rather more delicate gateways. Halliday used to say that you can really start anywhere when you are describing a complex phenomenon, so long as you remember that beyond one degree of delicacy there are infinitely others. So I think that the description I gave of the magic gateway here is adequate at about eighth grade level, with two amendments: a) The "iinterpersonal metafunction" is singular and not plural. Functions like "Mood" are sub-functions of this single uber-function that is the child's magic gateway into the whole of language. And of course beyond that gateway lie other gateways, e.g. "Subject", "Finite", etc. The same is true of the "textual metafunction" (Theme, Rheme) and the "ideational metafunction" (one of the very rare sources of disagreement between Halliday and Ruqaiya Hasan was that she insisted that there were really two different ideational metafunctions, the logical and the experientail, while Halliday preferred to see them as subfunctions of one). b) The "who" (interpersonal), the "how" (textual) and the "what" (ideational) are not the names of questions ("Who are you?", "How are you?" and "What are you made of?" are not three different metafunctions). They are labels for the metafunctions, attempts by me to simplify a complex terminology. But a name is just a gateway, and beyond each vague name there must necessarily be a more delicate and therefore more definite one. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UeTMSuYY3iGYNI80NGkgVW3vksPeX6xhNqXG1qffMzIs4RXePyHwgPaQtDiL035DfoBa0w$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UeTMSuYY3iGYNI80NGkgVW3vksPeX6xhNqXG1qffMzIs4RXePyHwgPaQtDiL035f0sEiOg$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200621/29bbea66/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Sat Jun 20 23:24:25 2020 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 11:54:25 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. Hi, This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. There are two most probable answers. 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. It is a mistake to believe that *the attitude of discrimination* and *sickness of racism *harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of *mental socio economic formation status* of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of *mental socio economic formation *of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different *mental socio economic formation status* also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one *constitution* and uniform *rule of laws*. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of *mental socio economic formation status*. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of *mental socio economic formation status* in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. ?*I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.*? Here it is between the lines that difference in the *mental socio economic formation status* could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward *mental socio economic formation status* will have to work hard to develop the same. I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. Regards, Harshad Dave On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg wrote: > Dear Harshad: > > I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the > references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. > As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to > shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to > do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and > certainly profitted from the looting politically). > > "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, > who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and > Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, > prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which > Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my > hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is > euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and > "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". > > Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many > "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter > than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave > owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I > visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from > Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XRytKQaemHdXQnE1_alDup1Q9QJOthSkW9c8JX9jQki7Qjz8k4gAV8Ye0cXZqOJrRzzcAA$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XRytKQaemHdXQnE1_alDup1Q9QJOthSkW9c8JX9jQki7Qjz8k4gAV8Ye0cXZqOJfYNiiYw$ > > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave wrote: > >> >> Dear all there, >> >> We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA >> under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on >> the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and >> discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in >> newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We >> just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out >> burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against >> apartheid was the major cry behind them. >> Though there are various vital aspects of the event, *apartheid* >> remained prime of them. >> I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. >> >> Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of >> the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to >> perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the >> europeans changed to black like negro. >> I ask my friends, "What will be the status of *apartheid* in this >> situation?" >> >> NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your >> views on the above question will help me to write my views with more >> clarity in the article. >> >> Regards, >> >> Harshad Dave >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200621/5e4469f8/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Sun Jun 21 04:23:28 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 07:23:28 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. Anthony On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave wrote: > > > Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. > > Hi, > > This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for > the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? > just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are > discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for > the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take > its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended > articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or > more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. > Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and > it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. > > I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 > June 2020. > > There are two most probable answers. > > 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism > (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. > > 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests > and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European > people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. > > I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one > out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, > but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. > > It is a mistake to believe that *the attitude of discrimination* and *sickness > of racism *harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above > altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of *mental socio economic > formation status* of two men. There is a basic difference between the two > statuses of *mental socio economic formation *of black people of African > origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass > of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has > fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with > backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of > peoples at different *mental socio economic formation status* also. But, > here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society > with one *constitution* and uniform *rule of laws*. It is absurd to > believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA > (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each > and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present > society of the USA with different levels of *mental socio economic > formation status*. It is really a complicated situation when the society > is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the > society are with varying levels of *mental socio economic formation > status* in the same society. Let me present part of the message of > Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. > > Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. > > ?*I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing > about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black > races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making > voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to > intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there > is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe > will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and > political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do > remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I > as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position > assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that > because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be > denied everything.*? > > > > Here it is between the lines that difference in the *mental socio > economic formation status* could be compensated to some extent, but for > equality people with backward *mental socio economic formation status* > will have to work hard to develop the same. > > I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue > of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject > matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real > cause harbors. > > > > Regards, > > > > Harshad Dave > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > >> Dear Harshad: >> >> I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the >> references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. >> As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to >> shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to >> do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and >> certainly profitted from the looting politically). >> >> "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, >> who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and >> Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, >> prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which >> Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my >> hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is >> euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and >> "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". >> >> Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. >> Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are >> lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of >> slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time >> I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong >> from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of >> class. >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!R6m_25hObAE_kgZiOAdnjY-yUHh-Q-oSzszvX3H_zJ7ZD-QLHbraz6GH8qKjwn1tLqI-Fg$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!R6m_25hObAE_kgZiOAdnjY-yUHh-Q-oSzszvX3H_zJ7ZD-QLHbraz6GH8qKjwn1xrm8oaA$ >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave wrote: >> >>> >>> Dear all there, >>> >>> We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA >>> under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on >>> the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and >>> discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in >>> newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We >>> just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out >>> burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against >>> apartheid was the major cry behind them. >>> Though there are various vital aspects of the event, *apartheid* >>> remained prime of them. >>> I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. >>> >>> Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of >>> the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to >>> perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the >>> europeans changed to black like negro. >>> I ask my friends, "What will be the status of *apartheid* in this >>> situation?" >>> >>> NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your >>> views on the above question will help me to write my views with more >>> clarity in the article. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Harshad Dave >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200621/3143741a/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Sun Jun 21 05:15:24 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 08:15:24 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] What Are Halliday's "Magic Gateways"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And my other question (for everybody), which I think might elicit a nice range of responses, is: What do you think is the most powerful threshold concept in Vygotsky? i.e., what is the one concept, or insight, of Vygotsky's that, when fully understood, most opens up a new way of seeing? >From Meyer and Land (2003): "Threshold Concepts? may be considered to be ?akin to passing through a portal? or ?conceptual gateway? that opens up ?previously inaccessible way[s] of thinking about something? Thank you! Anthony P.S. The following excerpts might hurt more than help, or confuse more than clarify, but for convenience's sake, I'll copy and paste them here: Meyer and Land, 2003: "Our discussions with practitioners in a range of disciplinary areas have led us to conclude that a threshold concept, across a range of subject contexts, is likely to be: 1. Transformative, in that, once understood, its potential effect on student learning and behaviour is to occasion a significant shift in the perception of a subject, or part thereof. 2. Probably irreversible, in that the change of perspective occasioned by acquisition of a threshold concept is unlikely to be forgotten, or will be unlearned only by considerable effort. 3. Integrative; that is, it exposes the previously hidden interrelatedness of something." Flanagan, 2020: "Examples of the threshold concept must be transformative and involve a traverse through a liminal space. They are likely to be characterised by many of, but not necessarily all of, the other features listed below: 1. Transformative: Once understood, a threshold concept changes the way in which the student views the discipline. 2. Troublesome: Threshold concepts are likely to be troublesome for the student. Perkins [1999, 2006] has suggested that knowledge can be troublesome e.g. when it is counter-intuitive, alien or seemingly incoherent. 3. Irreversible: Given their transformative potential, threshold concepts are also likely to be irreversible, i.e. they are difficult to unlearn. 4. Integrative: Threshold concepts, once learned, are likely to bring together different aspects of the subject that previously did not appear, to the student, to be related. 5. Bounded: A threshold concept will probably delineate a particular conceptual space, serving a specific and limited purpose. 6. Discursive: Meyer and Land [2] suggest that the crossing of a threshold will incorporate an enhanced and extended use of language. 7. Reconstitutive: "Understanding a threshold concept may entail a shift in learner subjectivity, which is implied through the transformative and discursive aspects already noted. Such reconstitution is, perhaps, more likely to be recognised initially by others, and also to take place over time (Smith)". 8. Liminality: Meyer and Land [4] have likened the crossing of the pedagogic threshold to a ?rite of passage? (drawing on the ethnographical studies of Gennep and of Turner in which a transitional or liminal space has to be traversed; ?in short, there is no simple passage in learning from ?easy? to ?difficult?; mastery of a threshold concept often involves messy journeys back, forth and across conceptual terrain. (Cousin [2006])?. Thank you! (And thanks again to David, re: magic gateways) On Saturday, June 20, 2020, David Kellogg wrote: > You know, nothing is quite as complicated as trying to be simple about > something complex. So Anthony wanted me to talk about a "threshold concept" > in Halliday, and even gave me chapter and verse about what this might > involve. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/6qf1qz__;!!Mih3wA!VYKj-5gCL8ff7lN3h_cURSpXC6jTMtuqqAHfz2biby-0HjqOsmC35hD7RMz8IFdWRySAlw$ > > > Halliday was, first and foremost, a teacher like you and me. That's why he > rejected the whole distinction between grammar and vocabulary, it's how he > ended up involved in the Chinese revolution, it's why he asked--and even > answered--teacherly questions like "How big is a language?" (depends on > where you are and where you are going, but it can be calculated) and "Does > Chomsky's distinction between surface and deep structure help you teach or > learn anything at all?" (no) and "What is 'difficulty' and how much of it > can we blame on the text rather than the child?" (it depends on how willing > you are to divorce the text from the child's understanding of it). > > I think that precisely because he was a teacher like you and me, he > wouldn't have liked the concept of "threshold concept": a single "aha" > moment that retrospectively transforms the way you think about a whole > domain like language. Yet in another sense, precisely because he was a > teacher like you and me, he inisisted on free choice (yes, with consent!) > as the organizing principle of lexicogrammar ("grammar-and-vocabulary", > where the "and" is to be understood in a fully Spinozan way). So he sees > child development as a series of magic gateways--the differentiation of > meaningful choices, some of which are more meaningful than others. The most > meaningful one is not "that gateway"--the one you are looking back upon in > satisfaction--but "this gateway"--the one you find yourself on the > threshold of. The magic is simply in the fact that you know that beyond > that gateway there are even greater gateways. > > Or rather more delicate gateways. Halliday used to say that you can really > start anywhere when you are describing a complex phenomenon, so long as you > remember that beyond one degree of delicacy there are infinitely others. So > I think that the description I gave of the magic gateway here is adequate > at about eighth grade level, with two amendments: > > a) The "iinterpersonal metafunction" is singular and not plural. Functions > like "Mood" are sub-functions of this single uber-function that is the > child's magic gateway into the whole of language. And of course beyond that > gateway lie other gateways, e.g. "Subject", "Finite", etc. The same is > true of the "textual metafunction" (Theme, Rheme) and the "ideational > metafunction" (one of the very rare sources of disagreement between > Halliday and Ruqaiya Hasan was that she insisted that there were really two > different ideational metafunctions, the logical and the experientail, while > Halliday preferred to see them as subfunctions of one). > > b) The "who" (interpersonal), the "how" (textual) and the "what" > (ideational) are not the names of questions ("Who are you?", "How are you?" > and "What are you made of?" are not three different metafunctions). They > are labels for the metafunctions, attempts by me to simplify a complex > terminology. But a name is just a gateway, and beyond each vague name there > must necessarily be a more delicate and therefore more definite one. > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VYKj-5gCL8ff7lN3h_cURSpXC6jTMtuqqAHfz2biby-0HjqOsmC35hD7RMz8IFc0MKdBEA$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VYKj-5gCL8ff7lN3h_cURSpXC6jTMtuqqAHfz2biby-0HjqOsmC35hD7RMz8IFfxi_LIDQ$ > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200621/8f5dfcd0/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Sun Jun 21 05:32:44 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 22:32:44 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Are Halliday's "Magic Gateways"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9833aea2-6078-300f-af2c-71916081aaae@marxists.org> the idea that using a cultural artefact an individual interacting with another individual brings the entire history and culture of which they are a part into their immediate interaction. Thus suspending the distinction between social theory and psychology. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 21/06/2020 10:15 pm, Anthony Barra wrote: > And my other question (for everybody), which I think might > elicit a nice range of responses, is: > > What do you think is the most powerful threshold concept > in Vygotsky?? i.e., what is the one concept, or insight, > of Vygotsky's that, when fully understood, most opens up a > new way of seeing? > > From Meyer and Land (2003): "Threshold Concepts? may be > considered to be ?akin to passing through a portal? > or??conceptual gateway? that opens up > ?previously?inaccessible way[s] of thinking about something? > > Thank you! > > Anthony > > P.S.? The following excerpts might hurt more than help, or > confuse more than clarify, but for convenience's sake, > I'll copy and paste them here: > > Meyer and Land, 2003: "Our discussions with practitioners > in a range of disciplinary areas have led us to conclude > that a threshold concept, across a range of subject > contexts, is likely to be: > > 1. Transformative, in that, once understood, its > potential effect on student learning and behaviour is > to occasion a significant shift in the perception of a > subject, or part thereof. > 2. Probably irreversible, in that the change of > perspective occasioned by acquisition of a threshold > concept is unlikely to be forgotten, or will be > unlearned only by considerable effort. > 3. Integrative; that is, it exposes the previously hidden > interrelatedness of something." > > > Flanagan, 2020: "Examples of the threshold concept must be > transformative and involve a traverse through a liminal > space. They are likely to be characterised by many of, but > not necessarily all of, the other features listed below: > > 1. > Transformative: Once understood, a threshold concept > changes the way in which the student views the discipline. > 2. > Troublesome: Threshold concepts are likely to be > troublesome for the student. Perkins [1999, 2006] has > suggested that knowledge can be troublesome e.g. when > it is counter-intuitive, alien or seemingly incoherent. > 3. > Irreversible: Given their transformative potential, > threshold concepts are also likely to be irreversible, > i.e. they are difficult to unlearn. > 4. > Integrative: Threshold concepts, once learned, are > likely to bring together different aspects of the > subject that previously did not appear, to the > student, to be related. > 5. > Bounded: A threshold concept will probably delineate a > particular conceptual space, serving a specific and > limited purpose. > 6. Discursive: Meyer and Land [2] suggest that the > crossing of a threshold will incorporate an enhanced > and extended use of language. > 7. Reconstitutive: "Understanding a threshold concept may > entail a shift in learner subjectivity, which is > implied through the transformative and discursive > aspects already noted. Such reconstitution is, > perhaps, more likely to be recognised initially by > others, and also to take place over time (Smith)". > 8. Liminality: Meyer and Land [4] have likened the > crossing of the pedagogic threshold to a ?rite of > passage? (drawing on the ethnographical studies of > Gennep and of Turner in which a transitional or > liminal space has to be traversed; ?in short, there is > no simple passage in learning from ?easy? to > ?difficult?; mastery of a threshold concept often > involves messy journeys back, forth and across > conceptual terrain. (Cousin [2006])?. > > Thank you!? (And thanks again to David, re: magic gateways) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, June 20, 2020, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > You know, nothing is quite as complicated as trying to > be simple about something complex. So Anthony wanted > me to talk about a "threshold concept" in Halliday, > and even gave me chapter and verse about what this > might involve. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/6qf1qz__;!!Mih3wA!WofP7aaNDzNixfJP-qIT7_0DVixsUGJRwSFItiD3UtuFF0_Rs0ogKUvb2bFD5Cxy1-ybHg$ > > > > Halliday was, first and foremost, a teacher like you > and me. That's why he rejected the whole distinction > between grammar and vocabulary, it's how he ended up > involved in the Chinese revolution, it's why he > asked--and even answered--teacherly questions like > "How big is a language?" (depends on where you are and > where you are going, but it can be calculated) and > "Does Chomsky's distinction between surface and deep > structure help you teach or learn anything at all?" > (no) and "What is 'difficulty' and how much of it can > we blame on the text rather than the child?" (it > depends on how willing you are to divorce the text > from the child's understanding of it). > > I think that precisely because he was a teacher like > you and me, he wouldn't have liked the concept of > "threshold concept": a single "aha" moment that > retrospectively?transforms the way you think about a > whole domain like language. Yet in another sense, > precisely because he was a teacher like you and me, he > inisisted on free choice (yes, with consent!) as the > organizing principle of lexicogrammar > ("grammar-and-vocabulary", where the "and" is to be > understood in a fully Spinozan way). So he sees child > development as a series of magic gateways--the > differentiation of meaningful choices, some of which > are more meaningful than others. The most meaningful > one is not "that gateway"--the one you are looking > back upon in satisfaction--but "this gateway"--the one > you find yourself on the threshold of.? The magic is > simply in the fact that you know that beyond that > gateway there are even greater gateways. > > Or rather more delicate gateways. Halliday used to say > that you can really start anywhere when you are > describing a complex phenomenon, so long as you > remember that beyond one degree of delicacy there are > infinitely others. So I think that the description I > gave of the magic gateway here is adequate at about > eighth grade level, with two amendments: > > a) The "iinterpersonal metafunction" is singular and > not plural. Functions like "Mood" are sub-functions of > this single uber-function that is the child's magic > gateway into the whole of language. And of course > beyond that gateway lie other gateways, e.g. > "Subject", "Finite", etc.??The same is true of the > "textual metafunction" (Theme, Rheme) and?the > "ideational metafunction" (one of the very rare > sources of disagreement between Halliday and Ruqaiya > Hasan was that she insisted that there were really two > different ideational metafunctions, the logical and > the experientail, while Halliday preferred to see them > as subfunctions of one). > > b) The "who" (interpersonal), the "how" (textual) and > the "what" (ideational) are not the names of questions > ("Who are you?", "How are you?" and "What are you made > of?" ?are not three different metafunctions). They are > labels for the?metafunctions, attempts by me to > simplify a complex terminology. But a name is just a > gateway, and beyond each vague name there must > necessarily be a more delicate and therefore more > definite one. > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and > a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WofP7aaNDzNixfJP-qIT7_0DVixsUGJRwSFItiD3UtuFF0_Rs0ogKUvb2bFD5Cxbk8Jh2g$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. Vygotsky's > Pedological Works/ /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WofP7aaNDzNixfJP-qIT7_0DVixsUGJRwSFItiD3UtuFF0_Rs0ogKUvb2bFD5CyQNwMyGA$ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200621/df48b7e0/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun Jun 21 15:53:40 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 07:53:40 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anthony-- I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RXrfjFcig6lgo_VFBO6_DclKUalDjTYnfOYLATaoG7ZXAcT5neO5r_kzdeBzNlhqizy-AA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RXrfjFcig6lgo_VFBO6_DclKUalDjTYnfOYLATaoG7ZXAcT5neO5r_kzdeBzNlgzCrP1qw$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra wrote: > Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is > that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a > nice day, regardless. > > Anthony > > > > On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave wrote: > >> >> >> Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. >> >> Hi, >> >> This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for >> the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? >> just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are >> discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for >> the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take >> its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended >> articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or >> more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. >> Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and >> it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. >> >> I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 >> June 2020. >> >> There are two most probable answers. >> >> 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of >> racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. >> >> 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests >> and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European >> people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. >> >> I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one >> out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, >> but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. >> >> It is a mistake to believe that *the attitude of discrimination* and *sickness >> of racism *harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above >> altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of *mental socio economic >> formation status* of two men. There is a basic difference between the >> two statuses of *mental socio economic formation *of black people of >> African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that >> a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic >> formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a >> society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two >> classes of peoples at different *mental socio economic formation status* >> also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the >> same society with one *constitution* and uniform *rule of laws*. It is >> absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society >> of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and >> uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various >> people in the present society of the USA with different levels of *mental >> socio economic formation status*. It is really a complicated situation >> when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and >> members of the society are with varying levels of *mental socio economic >> formation status* in the same society. Let me present part of the >> message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. >> >> Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. >> >> ?*I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of >> bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white >> and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of >> making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, >> nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this >> that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which >> I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of >> social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while >> they do remain together there must be the position of superior and >> inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior >> position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not >> perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the >> negro should be denied everything.*? >> >> >> >> Here it is between the lines that difference in the *mental socio >> economic formation status* could be compensated to some extent, but for >> equality people with backward *mental socio economic formation status* >> will have to work hard to develop the same. >> >> I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue >> of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject >> matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real >> cause harbors. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Harshad Dave >> >> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Harshad: >>> >>> I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the >>> references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. >>> As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to >>> shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to >>> do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and >>> certainly profitted from the looting politically). >>> >>> "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist >>> Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss >>> Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you >>> probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of >>> apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term >>> used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is >>> euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and >>> "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". >>> >>> Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. >>> Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are >>> lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of >>> slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time >>> I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong >>> from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of >>> class. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RXrfjFcig6lgo_VFBO6_DclKUalDjTYnfOYLATaoG7ZXAcT5neO5r_kzdeBzNlhqizy-AA$ >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RXrfjFcig6lgo_VFBO6_DclKUalDjTYnfOYLATaoG7ZXAcT5neO5r_kzdeBzNlgzCrP1qw$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Dear all there, >>>> >>>> We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA >>>> under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on >>>> the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and >>>> discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in >>>> newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We >>>> just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out >>>> burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against >>>> apartheid was the major cry behind them. >>>> Though there are various vital aspects of the event, *apartheid* >>>> remained prime of them. >>>> I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. >>>> >>>> Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of >>>> the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to >>>> perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the >>>> europeans changed to black like negro. >>>> I ask my friends, "What will be the status of *apartheid* in this >>>> situation?" >>>> >>>> NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your >>>> views on the above question will help me to write my views with more >>>> clarity in the article. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Harshad Dave >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200622/9a42a43d/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Jun 21 16:30:12 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 23:30:12 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" In-Reply-To: References: <000201d64653$40a874e0$c1f95ea0$@att.net> , Message-ID: Ha ha David and venerable others, The Latin quote is not what I meant, but given what you've recently said about translations and quotes, I should have been far more specific (and should have known better, given with whom I'm corresponding!) I would like to, if it's all right to discuss what it means. The quote in English as you have translated: By emotions, I understand affections of the body which augment or diminish, enhance or coerce the potential of a body to act, and at the same time the ideas of those affections. If of these affections we may be the adequate cause, I understand by them active emotions, otherwise passive (i.e. "passions" in the sense of "Passion of the Christ") About attaching the passions as in the "sense of the Passion of Christ," I'm not sure I fully understand that that could come from a person who did not adhere to the Judeo-Christian God. That must be a strawman you are introducing for sport, as I don't think you mean a reference to Mel Gibson's movie, but maybe you did? Instead, I trust Spinoza meant that passions were the excitations that generated from outside the person, in other words not from within, but from the environment. More like when they say, "a crime of passion." Remember that Spinoza had seen the mob scenes during political unrest tear up his friends into pieces, and would have been subject to that himself if only his landlord had not locked him inside the house. There is a correspondence to active vs passive, in that when we experience passions, our agency is passive and not active. We are like objects being thrown the universe, about like billiard balls on a pool table. This makes a great deal of sense given the prominence in Spinoza's time to the language of mathematics, the observations of the heavens, the scientific revolution, etc. Having witnessed and lived the experience of seeing his friends torn to bits, Spinoza would have been compelled to deep thought to make sense of it, as anyone would have. It was a traumatic experience. Given his orderly examination of actions and passions, passions seem to be those emotions that overpower an individual to act without reason. That he was a philosopher, he was describing to explain, not explaining to describe. Unfortunately in his time, no one knew enough about brain functions to distinguish between the layers of neuronal activity and its interactions with memory and cognition. Now we know that there are fight and flight responses that do bypass executive functions. Poking around the internet I found this paper which is a review of literature on Emotion regulation and Anxiety Disorders (from 2010) https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2901125/__;!!Mih3wA!WPlGnw9WrjYPkzliWdFGzkEdbyuH9SioGifj-3fuWJuVdmvBlwTPYLmkTPQp2uLNhX2tUA$ The science shows that emotion and emotion regulation arise from two, though related separate systems. I haven't read the entire paper but it looks to have some goodies in it pertaining to our discussion on emotion. I maintain that emotions that arise in response to a hostile environment, that come to the individual as direct or perceived threats, will not allow true learning. All it does is invoke fear, because that's the way we were designed to respond to threats in order to survive. Fear produces much noise in the system.That's why invoking fear in people has a predictable consequence to such a degree someone like Machiavelli could write an entire treatise upon it. This just shows that a lot can be deduced from astute observation of human behavior without understanding what's actually going on in the brain and mind. Sometimes it's not knowing why it happens but just that it happens. That's why I think Vygotsky still works for us, even if not all of it does. I suggest from what we know about the brain and nervous systems these days, that having a calm amygdala, that doesn't interfere with pre-frontal cortex activities, is paramount to allowing the best kind of learning opportunities. If a person is prone to endless negative thinking, it's likely that person perceives a threat of some kind, and this is likely a residue of trauma (which can become a bad habit of thinking the worst). This response clouds their reason (or PFC activity) and ability to think about things objectively. That's likely why students who are malnourished, or from distressed homes, or who are bullied, will not learn as well as those who are well-fed, experience supportive homes, or who generally feel safe at school. Makes sense to me. Also if it's ok to ask not to have words placed in my mouth, I don't think it's "and." I think it's "or," but not "either/or," which seems to be what you are saying, and would support a dualistic conclusion. One can have many words that reference the same object. Given Spinoza was living at a time when people who said the wrong things, or wrote the wrong things got burned at the stake, he likely had to be careful about how he spoke about things. A God of an immanent world is different than the Biblical anthropomorphized God (or "Zeus in Semetic drag"). To point to nature was to say, look at how Nature reinvents itself, is in a constant state of change, and we being a part of that are subject to its laws. In the way we are part of Nature, Spinoza uses Nature as an intellectual bridge to justify how we are also part of God, but not as a separate part, like Adam and Eve cast out of the Garden in fig leaves. That's where Spinoza's attributes and modes come from, as a way to differentiate humans as one with God, in the same way nature is one with God. This is only possible by the unifying substance. I cannot help myself but to mention that there is something very similar in the Vedic cosmology, called the gunas. Guna means "branch" but can mean "attribute," or "quality." There are three of them. Satwa, rajas and tamas. Everything in the universe is made up of different combinations of these three gunas. Here's a wiki page on Guna: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gu**Ba__;4bmH!!Mih3wA!WPlGnw9WrjYPkzliWdFGzkEdbyuH9SioGifj-3fuWJuVdmvBlwTPYLmkTPQp2uKnMJo_dA$ and here I've C&P'd the definitions from that page * Sattva is the quality of balance, harmony, goodness, purity, universal-ism, holism, construction, creativity, positivity, peacefulness, and virtue. * Rajas is the quality of passion, activity, neither good nor bad and sometimes either, self-centeredness, egoism, individualization, drivenness, movement, and dynamism * Tamas is the quality of imbalance, disorder, chaos, anxiety, impurity, destruction, delusion, negativity, dullness or inactivity, apathy, inertia or lethargy, violence, viciousness, and ignorance. I've brought these up before on the list. I once had an epiphany that the gunas even loosely correspond to Einstein's theory of relativity. E=mc2. Sattwa = light; Rajas = energy; Tamas = mass. Einstein's theory is a more sophisticated recipe of how these three gunas interact and relate to one another. (This connection may also be why Einstein said that he believed in Spinoza's God, though I know Einstein probably didn't know about the gunas, he must have found meaning Spinoza's ideas of attributes and modes.) What I find remarkable is how similar Spinoza's cosmology is so close to the Vedic one, and I have to wonder if there was ever a possibility that he had been exposed to Vedic texts somehow. It's just too uncanny to be an accident. Anyway, getting back to Nature and why I say that Nature is metonymical for God, in the same way I might live on a row of similar houses, painted the same color, and I tell you that my house is the one with the crow sitting on the roof. The crow has nothing to do with the house except to reveal the location of my house at that moment. I believe that Spinoza was referencing Nature in this way, given that God would be a far larger more mysterious entity than could be perceived in Nature, and was not intended to be limited to Nature. And so I meant "or" not "and" and not "either/or". Actually, I think Spinoza meant "or" too. Kind regards on a Sunday afternoon. Annalisa P.S. I did not have the op to proof this as closely as I'd like so please forgive my typos. ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2020 2:08 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" [EXTERNAL] Right, Annalisa--here's the original, from the definitions at the outset of Chapter III of Ethiika III. Per affectum intelligo corporis affectiones quibus ipsius corporis agendi potentia augetur vel minuitur, juvatur vel coercetur et simul harum affectionum ideas. Si itaque alicujus harum affectionum ad?quata possimus esse causa, tum per affectum actionem intelligo, alias passionem. ("By emotions, I understand affections of the body which augment or diminish, enhance or coerce the potential of a body to act, and at the same time the ideas of those affections. If of these affections we may be the adequate cause, I understand by them active emotions, otherwise passive (i.e. "passions" in the sense of "Passion of the Christ")." So I remembered it wrong (I thought I had this tattooed--my Latin isn't what it used to be). Annalisa is essentially right: it's not "or"--it's "and". And of course because Spinoza is a militant one-worlder, we know that he's talking about "idea" and "agendi potentia" as two modes of the same thing: it's a unitary concept and not a complex. Nevertheless, you can see that LSVs distinction between tools and signs is there in the form of whether or not the emotion has the self as adequate cause or the environment. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WPlGnw9WrjYPkzliWdFGzkEdbyuH9SioGifj-3fuWJuVdmvBlwTPYLmkTPQp2uKZtMSY4w$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WPlGnw9WrjYPkzliWdFGzkEdbyuH9SioGifj-3fuWJuVdmvBlwTPYLmkTPQp2uJNZYtYYg$ On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 4:09 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: David, and venerable others, Something is lost in this discussion of Spinoza's passions. David, might you actually post the quoted text from which you cite from Spinoza on "passions"? I found this on a wiki page on passions: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passions_(philosophy)*Spinoza__;Iw!!Mih3wA!WPlGnw9WrjYPkzliWdFGzkEdbyuH9SioGifj-3fuWJuVdmvBlwTPYLmkTPQp2uLJn4NMew$ The seventeenth century Dutch philosopher Spinoza contrasted "action" with "passion," as well as the state of being "active" with the state of being "passive." A passion, in his view, happened when external events affect us partially such that we have confused ideas about these events and their causes. A "passive" state is when we experience an emotion which Spinoza regarded as a "passivity of the soul." The body's power is increased or diminished. Emotions are bodily changes plus ideas about these changes which can help or hurt a human. It happens when the bodily changes we experience are caused primarily by external forces or by a mix of external and internal forces. Spinoza argued that it was much better for the individual himself to be the only adequate cause of bodily changes, and to act based on an adequate understanding of causes-and-effects with ideas of these changes logically related to each other and to reality. When this happened the person is "active," and Spinoza described the ideas as adequate. But most of the time, this does not happen, and Spinoza, along with Freud, saw emotions as more powerful than reason. Spinoza tried to live the life of reason which he advocated. ---- And from here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinozism__;!!Mih3wA!WPlGnw9WrjYPkzliWdFGzkEdbyuH9SioGifj-3fuWJuVdmvBlwTPYLmkTPQp2uK3CXlPJg$ "...when Spinoza wrote 'Deus sive Natura' ('God or Nature') Spinoza meant God was Natura naturans not Natura naturata, that is, 'a dynamic nature in action, growing and changing, not a passive or static thing.'" If Spinoza rejected Descartes's dualism, and he did, then what you are missing from your description of Spinoza's passions, David, is the substance that united the body and the mind. This substance was in the world, not just "in" people. Unless I am mistaken, Spinoza saw this substance as God making humans a part of, yet unified with, the immanent world (nature and God being the same), because all things within the universe are attributes and modes of the substance. I am cautiously writing that, as I can't check my Spinoza books right now. When someone says, "You can call me David or Dave" the words are not referencing different people. Isn't this "or" in "God or Nature" referencing different names for the same entity? When Spinoza says "God or Nature," either of these words reference the same substance. This superimposition of God upon Nature was metonymical, to illustrate that God manifests from itself, as we observe nature generating itself within nature itself. Interestingly, Spinoza's monism isn't so far from the Advaita (Sanskrit for "non-dual") model. But listen to that --> [ >!!< ] <-- It's the sound of splitting hairs, with an important distinction: Monism is to say there is one, but in order to have one, one must have the ability to have an inside and and outside to count "one." In contrast, non-dual is to mean "one without a second." meaning there is no inside nor outside; there are no edges, no limits, no distinctions. It's all Brahman (which is Sanskrit for "the big"). I do not recall where time and space reside in Spinoza's model, but in the non-dual model, time and space are contained inside the non-dual, meaning the "one without a second" is outside time and space, and therefore limitless. It seems for Spinoza's definition of this substance, it relies upon self-conceiving. There is a teaching illustration in Vedanta of the spider that creates a web from itself. I think this is what Spinoza had in mind when he discusses self-conceiving. In other words he rejected a conception of God that was likened to Zeus throwing thunderbolts from the heavens and making the earth like throwing donuts into hot oil. God in that conception was separate from nature, like the watchmaker is separate from the watch. This is definition of an immanent God was, why he was called an atheist. Go figure. Anyway, in this unified vision of the immanent world, if Spinoza saw the body as partaking in physical activity, he also saw ideas as a different kind of activity, mental activity. Passions were e-motions untempered and could lead one astray. His view was one should monitor these passions with reason. In addition, practicing virtues would reduce the passions. (It's not that different from anubandha) Cause and effect. In that way Spinoza was deterministic, and maybe that is why Vygotsky was a shade that too. To reply to your question why we have more violence out there than sex? I'd say that it's sensationalism. Societies can control its people by inciting the "passions." People are kept from their own counsel and inner/reflective dialogue if they are in constant stimulation of fight or flight, or to include sex into the equation we might group all of that (sex (and violence) and drugs and rock and roll) as "arousal." That isn't our homeostatic baseline to be in perpetual arousal. If so, then why do we sleep? Why do all the poets talk about the sublime in nature? Why even have the words "peace" or "tranquility" in a language at all? What do those words point to in our experiences? Where you say: ...if negative emotion consistently debilitates rather than facilitates our capacity to act, why does tragedy have so much more currency in the verbal arts than comedy? Why, for that matter, is violence so much more permissible in the visual-illustrative arts than sex? If there is a prevalence of inciting negative emotions in any society to an extreme, I don't think the society and the people within it will last very long. Just consider where there are war-torn countries, famine, etc. Yet in places where positive emotions are more prevalent, the people are happier, live longer, have a better quality of life. It's pretty obvious. If you say that tragedy has more currency than comedy, it's because we want to understand tragedy so that we might know how to survive it. We do not want to be subject to tragedy. It is a threat to us. Laughter isn't a threat to our existence. It needs no understanding to overcome it. Even watching Macbeth or King Lear has to happen in a quiet theater. I'd add that violence is more permissive than sex because violence creates fear and "educates" the people about the levers of power. That isn't learning. On the other hand, sex, being pleasurable, must be controlled in a society that trades in currency of violence, but also where gender roles are well-defined and there is no blurring of the lines within those "norms." It's all about control. In cultures where violence is not so prevalent, sex does tend to be more freely expressed, so it depends upon what society you are referencing. Both sex and violence are what Spinoza referenced as the passions because they have the power to disturb to the point of a person losing their reason, a highly undesirable state in Spinoza's estimation. Regardless, I'm not sure that there is any "learning" in the way we want to talk about learning, when there is incitement of passions, whether sex or violence. I maintain that the optimum learning environments are those that are peaceful and reflective with minimal distractions. The student and teacher must feel relatively safe in their interactions with one another. Consider how academic freedom is being pilloried in our universities with so many non-tenured, contingent instructors. The kind of learning that we are biologically hardwired to do cannot happen if the environment for learning is distorted and deformed (with unregulated passions, Spinoza might add). Getting back to nature, plants simply cannot grow without water and fertile soil. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 2:40 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" [EXTERNAL] Iju (my co-author) was a sardonic, even satirical teacher, and her kids, sixth graders, would feed on, feed back and greatly amplify her critical attitude to the texts. I remember her presenting a lesson about shopping to her kids by pointing to herself and telling the kids that she was a meandering, browsing, gatherer in the local shopping mall while her husband, alas, was a hunter who just goes for his kill and then scurries back to the lair. She then plaintively asked if the kids had time to go shopping with her, and the kids said something like "Teacher! Crisis! All bankrupt!". It was true--in the wake of the 2008 stock market collapse, the local shopping mall had gone out of business. Anyway, knowing her and her kids, I would not be surprised if the lesson on two boys arm-wrestling for the right to take a girl to an amusement park was presented to the kids as a parody of Korean rom-coms or a pastiche of Korean reality TV. So what Spinoza says about the "passions" is that they are the "affections" (modes? manners?) of the body which increase or decrease the power of activity "or the ideas thereof". The word "or" suggests either/or--a kind of dualism that sits poorly with Spinoza's monism ("Deus Sive Natura"--"God, in other words, Nature"). One way of elminating that "or" and the finger of salvation it extends to dualism is simply to replace it with "and" or "with". .The Edelman version of this is that consciousness arises from preconcepts in animals which enable learning--the experience and or along with the experience of having had an experience. He explains this by re-entrant neurons: neural networks which appear redundant in animals and even in infants (where the pain that makes the infant cry is really not easily distinguishable from the experience of having had the pain) and occur only because neural networks are not parsimonious and do not evolve to be. These neural networks turn out to be non-redundant as soon as true concepts arise, and true concepts are defined as being able to have the experience and to define it in terms of other experiences. Not a bad definition of "perezhivanie", no? My Friday classes on Communication tend to be rather like Iju's: I put on a sardonic, satirical, and somewhat self-deprecating persona and my students play a lively bunch of wise-cracking gym-rats and self-parodying mall-rats (and yes, the roles are largely self-cast by sex and by gender). Yesterday one of the liveiest mall-rats was missing because her grandfather had died (mourning is taken very seriously here). This was an "affection" that did not increase the power of the activity of the class body to act, and some of the usual wise-cracking of the class was obviously a somewhat forced compensation. But if negative emotion consistently debilitates rather than facilitates our capacity to act, why does tragedy have so much more currency in the verbal arts than comedy? Why, for that matter, is violence so much more permissible in the visual-illustrative arts than sex? David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WPlGnw9WrjYPkzliWdFGzkEdbyuH9SioGifj-3fuWJuVdmvBlwTPYLmkTPQp2uKZtMSY4w$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WPlGnw9WrjYPkzliWdFGzkEdbyuH9SioGifj-3fuWJuVdmvBlwTPYLmkTPQp2uJNZYtYYg$ On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 4:05 AM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello Phillip, Peg, Mike, and welcomed others, A Juneteenth federal holiday would be marvelous. I'm sure it could be as marvelous if not more than to have something as grand as a Thanksgiving Day Parade in every city. I like the idea of calling it Freedom Day (or even Liberation Day) as well, because that is a concept that everyone can value as something worth having. Apparently it used to be called Freedom Day once upon a time. --- Getting back to the original topic, I would like to voice my skepticism about negative and positive emotions and their role in learning. I believe that just emotion (whatever the quality) isn't something that "aids" learning. I think positive emotions are far more powerful in the registry of learning than negative ones. What I think is likely of consequence with negative emotions that accompany a "situation" for learning, likely has to do with trauma and survival. In other words, negative emotions do have a role and influence, but will wire into memory in a different way than positive ones would. This makes sense in terms of what we understand about PTSD and how it is that certain somatic reactions "bypass" conscious thought of the afflicted person after having suffered a traumatic experience (i.e., flashbacks). I think I understand more why Mike and Phillip have indicated the coupling of emotion and learning can be misused by fascists, etc. I don't exactly agree with this, but perhaps I'm not fully understanding the reference. There is something deeply different going on with learning that maps with negative vs positive emotions, though we might not yet be able to determine the "mechanics" of these processes and how they are different. I'm thinking about another article I read at the Intercept about facebook moderators. These are the digital turks of the Internet (No offense I hope to any Turks by using that phrase). https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theintercept.com/2020/06/18/facebook-moderator-ptsd-settlement-accenture/__;!!Mih3wA!WPlGnw9WrjYPkzliWdFGzkEdbyuH9SioGifj-3fuWJuVdmvBlwTPYLmkTPQp2uKq7j__rw$ Being exposed to negative imagery (that generates negative emotions) doesn't transform learning, it makes people unwell. If it were a neutral input (that it didn't matter if it were positive or negative), then people wouldn't be getting sick just from exposure to images. Something very different is going on. I sense that the next decades we will be learning more about the effects of trauma. That would be a good thing because it might also be instrumental in forging the means to prevent wars and other forms of group violence (genocide, refugee encampments, homelessness, other forms of deep, human suffering). Maybe we can also defund the Pentagon and put some of that money into diplomacy. Or even start that US Department of Peace that Congressman Kucinich had proposed once upon a time. As ever... I remain hopeful, kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 10:40 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" [EXTERNAL] Its a Bakhtinian moment, Peg, when when repressed voices bring back a national memory and the consciousness of a nation (consciousness as humans' relationship to nature and each other) has undergone a qualitative shift. Will it be papered over by future forgetting? Too soon to tell. If Juneteenth becomes a national holiday, it would be a very interesting shift in national memorializing and perhaps, even, race relations. For those like me who have inherited only a foggy notion of Juneteenth , the attached link might be helpful. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/*inbox/WhctKJVrDFZHHxRlWkntMlVkVGGMxhnSmgMtqSjmJRWnZRpQjsxLHhpHTlPVtsZRbGvGkBv__;Iw!!Mih3wA!WPlGnw9WrjYPkzliWdFGzkEdbyuH9SioGifj-3fuWJuVdmvBlwTPYLmkTPQp2uIpyfwSWA$ mike On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 9:07 AM Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: Phillip, Your note on missing voices reminded me of Sandro Duranti once saying that he had gained ears. And it seems a propos of a good Juneteenth Day. So? Long ago and far away (from me right now at least), before xmca, even before xlchc maybe, in two funny temporary buildings in a little grove of a few trees with occasional ocean breezes and a picnic table and benches, there were a bunch of what some on the staff called ?labbies,? with lots of differences in academic standing, community culture, family race, nationality, and short and long term motives. We gathered and gave each other questions and occasional answers and lots of worrying and enjoying. Along came Sandro as a post doc. His family lived in LA and he stayed in San Diego for several days a week. After a month or so, he told us about a party he went to over the weekend when he was back in LA. As usual there were lots of local university faculty and students. He said it felt different for him, though. And he had finally pinned down what it was. He was listening with extra ears ? ears from black and brown people who constituted a large portion of the lab, its taken for granted history, its day to day goings on. He heard things that needed to be countered, challenged, questioned, discussed ? things that might have just passed by before but now seemed to be things that wouldn?t be said had he been a person of color from the Lab. His extra ears gave him ideas, feelings, words and motives that he hadn?t experienced before. Sandro is a gifted anthropologist, originally from Italy, with advanced degrees from the US. And a dear sweet man. Peg From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 10:18 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Emotion as "Sputnik" David - very contextualising background information - which i appreciate. do you think that there is a thread here in the activity of resolving disputes that 'might makes right' - reflecting on my initial response to Veresov, could have been an emotional sputnik - so much tension in the air these days here in denver - but i don't want to make excuses - i'm reminded on Nina Simone's song: Alabama's gotten me so upset Tennessee made me lose my rest And everybody knows about Mississippi goddam not just racism, but all isms have just gotten to me recently - and i'm missing the voices of twenty years ago - to mention just a few: Suzanne De Castle - Mary Bryson - Kathryn Alexander - Eva Ekablad, to mention just a few - of course, we've still got Peg - later - phillip -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!WPlGnw9WrjYPkzliWdFGzkEdbyuH9SioGifj-3fuWJuVdmvBlwTPYLmkTPQp2uJNuO7R4Q$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200621/b1b13107/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Sun Jun 21 21:47:00 2020 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 10:17:00 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David? Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. *Point 1:* When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on *philosophy of humanity* to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our *sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts* and second leg on the horse of *facts of* *the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, *I think he will never succeed in his task. *Point 2:* Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both????.? It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.?] The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our *justice and good conscience*. *Point 3:* As concluded by David, ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts??? I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. Regards, Harshad Dave On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg wrote: > Anthony-- > > I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that > Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are > related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they > are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not > classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by > relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups > that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular > professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in > India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" > in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when > he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into > interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory > and psychology! > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Q40qf7_a6M4kenEuiWtyx2Ayw5Hkf3QQRSbnL_wzQcK3zWsvb2exeF7VAKFo24V5OnFIlw$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Q40qf7_a6M4kenEuiWtyx2Ayw5Hkf3QQRSbnL_wzQcK3zWsvb2exeF7VAKFo24XWXIGu0w$ > > > > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense >> is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have >> a nice day, regardless. >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for >>> the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? >>> just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are >>> discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for >>> the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take >>> its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended >>> articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or >>> more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. >>> Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and >>> it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. >>> >>> I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 >>> June 2020. >>> >>> There are two most probable answers. >>> >>> 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of >>> racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. >>> >>> 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests >>> and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European >>> people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. >>> >>> I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one >>> out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, >>> but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. >>> >>> It is a mistake to believe that *the attitude of discrimination* and *sickness >>> of racism *harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above >>> altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of *mental socio >>> economic formation status* of two men. There is a basic difference >>> between the two statuses of *mental socio economic formation *of black >>> people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I >>> believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio >>> economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people >>> constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is >>> equally true for two classes of peoples at different *mental socio >>> economic formation status* also. But, here (in the USA) both the >>> classes of people are living in the same society with one *constitution* >>> and uniform *rule of laws*. It is absurd to believe that the present >>> socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has >>> prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of >>> the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA >>> with different levels of *mental socio economic formation status*. It >>> is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the >>> latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying >>> levels of *mental socio economic formation status* in the same society. >>> Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this >>> message. >>> >>> Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. >>> >>> ?*I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of >>> bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white >>> and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of >>> making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, >>> nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this >>> that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which >>> I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of >>> social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while >>> they do remain together there must be the position of superior and >>> inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior >>> position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not >>> perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the >>> negro should be denied everything.*? >>> >>> >>> >>> Here it is between the lines that difference in the *mental socio >>> economic formation status* could be compensated to some extent, but for >>> equality people with backward *mental socio economic formation status* >>> will have to work hard to develop the same. >>> >>> I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue >>> of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject >>> matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real >>> cause harbors. >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Harshad Dave >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Harshad: >>>> >>>> I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the >>>> references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. >>>> As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to >>>> shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to >>>> do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and >>>> certainly profitted from the looting politically). >>>> >>>> "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist >>>> Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss >>>> Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you >>>> probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of >>>> apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term >>>> used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is >>>> euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and >>>> "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". >>>> >>>> Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. >>>> Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are >>>> lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of >>>> slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time >>>> I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong >>>> from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of >>>> class. >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Q40qf7_a6M4kenEuiWtyx2Ayw5Hkf3QQRSbnL_wzQcK3zWsvb2exeF7VAKFo24V5OnFIlw$ >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Q40qf7_a6M4kenEuiWtyx2Ayw5Hkf3QQRSbnL_wzQcK3zWsvb2exeF7VAKFo24XWXIGu0w$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dear all there, >>>>> >>>>> We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA >>>>> under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on >>>>> the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and >>>>> discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in >>>>> newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We >>>>> just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out >>>>> burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against >>>>> apartheid was the major cry behind them. >>>>> Though there are various vital aspects of the event, *apartheid* >>>>> remained prime of them. >>>>> I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. >>>>> >>>>> Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of >>>>> the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to >>>>> perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the >>>>> europeans changed to black like negro. >>>>> I ask my friends, "What will be the status of *apartheid* in this >>>>> situation?" >>>>> >>>>> NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your >>>>> views on the above question will help me to write my views with more >>>>> clarity in the article. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Harshad Dave >>>>> >>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200622/bec4f07f/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Where the shoe pinches address.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 85511 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200622/bec4f07f/attachment.bin From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Jun 22 14:44:34 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 06:44:34 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Are Halliday's "Magic Gateways"? In-Reply-To: <9833aea2-6078-300f-af2c-71916081aaae@marxists.org> References: <9833aea2-6078-300f-af2c-71916081aaae@marxists.org> Message-ID: Word meaning (and any other unit of analysis) develops--the timescale of its ontogenetic development is radically different from that of its sociogenetic development, just as it must needs differ from its logogenetic development. Thought is not "expressed" in word meanings but only realized in or "materialized" by them to the extent that the order of thoughts resembles the order of words. Sometimes that's not very much! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RzdehJzijYsaqz-5AtLPEOFKrKoijphlktXDFgtVfuqso4V3bjF7PgcmVTu90grfCYjxQg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RzdehJzijYsaqz-5AtLPEOFKrKoijphlktXDFgtVfuqso4V3bjF7PgcmVTu90goaLj3dKQ$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 9:35 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > the idea that using a cultural artefact an individual interacting with > another individual brings the entire history and culture of which they are > a part into their immediate interaction. Thus suspending the distinction > between social theory and psychology. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 21/06/2020 10:15 pm, Anthony Barra wrote: > > And my other question (for everybody), which I think might elicit a nice > range of responses, is: > > What do you think is the most powerful threshold concept in Vygotsky? > i.e., what is the one concept, or insight, of Vygotsky's that, when fully > understood, most opens up a new way of seeing? > > From Meyer and Land (2003): "Threshold Concepts? may be considered to be > ?akin to passing through a portal? or ?conceptual gateway? that opens up > ?previously inaccessible way[s] of thinking about something? > > Thank you! > > Anthony > > P.S. The following excerpts might hurt more than help, or confuse more > than clarify, but for convenience's sake, I'll copy and paste them here: > > Meyer and Land, 2003: "Our discussions with practitioners in a range of > disciplinary areas have led us to conclude that a threshold concept, across > a range of subject contexts, is likely to be: > > 1. Transformative, in that, once understood, its potential effect on > student learning and behaviour is to occasion a significant shift in the > perception of a subject, or part thereof. > 2. Probably irreversible, in that the change of perspective occasioned > by acquisition of a threshold concept is unlikely to be forgotten, or will > be unlearned only by considerable effort. > 3. Integrative; that is, it exposes the previously hidden > interrelatedness of something." > > > Flanagan, 2020: "Examples of the threshold concept must be transformative > and involve a traverse through a liminal space. They are likely to be > characterised by many of, but not necessarily all of, the other features > listed below: > > 1. Transformative: Once understood, a threshold concept changes the > way in which the student views the discipline. > 2. Troublesome: Threshold concepts are likely to be troublesome for > the student. Perkins [1999, 2006] has suggested that knowledge can be > troublesome e.g. when it is counter-intuitive, alien or seemingly > incoherent. > 3. Irreversible: Given their transformative potential, threshold > concepts are also likely to be irreversible, i.e. they are difficult to > unlearn. > 4. Integrative: Threshold concepts, once learned, are likely to bring > together different aspects of the subject that previously did not appear, > to the student, to be related. > 5. Bounded: A threshold concept will probably delineate a particular > conceptual space, serving a specific and limited purpose. > 6. Discursive: Meyer and Land [2] suggest that the crossing of a > threshold will incorporate an enhanced and extended use of language. > 7. Reconstitutive: "Understanding a threshold concept may entail a > shift in learner subjectivity, which is implied through the transformative > and discursive aspects already noted. Such reconstitution is, perhaps, more > likely to be recognised initially by others, and also to take place over > time (Smith)". > 8. Liminality: Meyer and Land [4] have likened the crossing of the > pedagogic threshold to a ?rite of passage? (drawing on the ethnographical > studies of Gennep and of Turner in which a transitional or liminal space > has to be traversed; ?in short, there is no simple passage in learning from > ?easy? to ?difficult?; mastery of a threshold concept often involves messy > journeys back, forth and across conceptual terrain. (Cousin [2006])?. > > Thank you! (And thanks again to David, re: magic gateways) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, June 20, 2020, David Kellogg wrote: > >> You know, nothing is quite as complicated as trying to be simple about >> something complex. So Anthony wanted me to talk about a "threshold concept" >> in Halliday, and even gave me chapter and verse about what this might >> involve. >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/6qf1qz__;!!Mih3wA!RzdehJzijYsaqz-5AtLPEOFKrKoijphlktXDFgtVfuqso4V3bjF7PgcmVTu90gpFNp6Zgw$ >> >> >> Halliday was, first and foremost, a teacher like you and me. That's why >> he rejected the whole distinction between grammar and vocabulary, it's how >> he ended up involved in the Chinese revolution, it's why he asked--and even >> answered--teacherly questions like "How big is a language?" (depends on >> where you are and where you are going, but it can be calculated) and "Does >> Chomsky's distinction between surface and deep structure help you teach or >> learn anything at all?" (no) and "What is 'difficulty' and how much of it >> can we blame on the text rather than the child?" (it depends on how willing >> you are to divorce the text from the child's understanding of it). >> >> I think that precisely because he was a teacher like you and me, he >> wouldn't have liked the concept of "threshold concept": a single "aha" >> moment that retrospectively transforms the way you think about a whole >> domain like language. Yet in another sense, precisely because he was a >> teacher like you and me, he inisisted on free choice (yes, with consent!) >> as the organizing principle of lexicogrammar ("grammar-and-vocabulary", >> where the "and" is to be understood in a fully Spinozan way). So he sees >> child development as a series of magic gateways--the differentiation of >> meaningful choices, some of which are more meaningful than others. The most >> meaningful one is not "that gateway"--the one you are looking back upon in >> satisfaction--but "this gateway"--the one you find yourself on the >> threshold of. The magic is simply in the fact that you know that beyond >> that gateway there are even greater gateways. >> >> Or rather more delicate gateways. Halliday used to say that you can >> really start anywhere when you are describing a complex phenomenon, so long >> as you remember that beyond one degree of delicacy there are infinitely >> others. So I think that the description I gave of the magic gateway here is >> adequate at about eighth grade level, with two amendments: >> >> a) The "iinterpersonal metafunction" is singular and not plural. >> Functions like "Mood" are sub-functions of this single uber-function that >> is the child's magic gateway into the whole of language. And of course >> beyond that gateway lie other gateways, e.g. "Subject", "Finite", etc. The >> same is true of the "textual metafunction" (Theme, Rheme) and the >> "ideational metafunction" (one of the very rare sources of disagreement >> between Halliday and Ruqaiya Hasan was that she insisted that there were >> really two different ideational metafunctions, the logical and the >> experientail, while Halliday preferred to see them as subfunctions of one). >> >> b) The "who" (interpersonal), the "how" (textual) and the "what" >> (ideational) are not the names of questions ("Who are you?", "How are you?" >> and "What are you made of?" are not three different metafunctions). They >> are labels for the metafunctions, attempts by me to simplify a complex >> terminology. But a name is just a gateway, and beyond each vague name there >> must necessarily be a more delicate and therefore more definite one. >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RzdehJzijYsaqz-5AtLPEOFKrKoijphlktXDFgtVfuqso4V3bjF7PgcmVTu90grfCYjxQg$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RzdehJzijYsaqz-5AtLPEOFKrKoijphlktXDFgtVfuqso4V3bjF7PgcmVTu90goaLj3dKQ$ >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200623/8330ca66/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Mon Jun 22 16:27:59 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 19:27:59 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Are Halliday's "Magic Gateways"? In-Reply-To: References: <9833aea2-6078-300f-af2c-71916081aaae@marxists.org> Message-ID: Keep 'em coming, folks... This can turn into an interesting collection. On Monday, June 22, 2020, David Kellogg wrote: > Word meaning (and any other unit of analysis) develops--the timescale of > its ontogenetic development is radically different from that of its > sociogenetic development, just as it must needs differ from its logogenetic > development. > > Thought is not "expressed" in word meanings but only realized in or > "materialized" by them to the extent that the order of thoughts resembles > the order of words. Sometimes that's not very much! > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!R3t7j-EQqWNC7OrUEsrr2d4mYAr2ZQt7UtWp6wHHG958h2N8RiTrFx-jSwRJELsjptvYxw$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!R3t7j-EQqWNC7OrUEsrr2d4mYAr2ZQt7UtWp6wHHG958h2N8RiTrFx-jSwRJELucc5adzw$ > > > > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 9:35 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> the idea that using a cultural artefact an individual interacting with >> another individual brings the entire history and culture of which they are >> a part into their immediate interaction. Thus suspending the distinction >> between social theory and psychology. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 21/06/2020 10:15 pm, Anthony Barra wrote: >> >> And my other question (for everybody), which I think might elicit a nice >> range of responses, is: >> >> What do you think is the most powerful threshold concept in Vygotsky? >> i.e., what is the one concept, or insight, of Vygotsky's that, when fully >> understood, most opens up a new way of seeing? >> >> From Meyer and Land (2003): "Threshold Concepts? may be considered to be >> ?akin to passing through a portal? or ?conceptual gateway? that opens up >> ?previously inaccessible way[s] of thinking about something? >> >> Thank you! >> >> Anthony >> >> P.S. The following excerpts might hurt more than help, or confuse more >> than clarify, but for convenience's sake, I'll copy and paste them here: >> >> Meyer and Land, 2003: "Our discussions with practitioners in a range of >> disciplinary areas have led us to conclude that a threshold concept, across >> a range of subject contexts, is likely to be: >> >> 1. Transformative, in that, once understood, its potential effect on >> student learning and behaviour is to occasion a significant shift in the >> perception of a subject, or part thereof. >> 2. Probably irreversible, in that the change of perspective >> occasioned by acquisition of a threshold concept is unlikely to be >> forgotten, or will be unlearned only by considerable effort. >> 3. Integrative; that is, it exposes the previously hidden >> interrelatedness of something." >> >> >> Flanagan, 2020: "Examples of the threshold concept must be transformative >> and involve a traverse through a liminal space. They are likely to be >> characterised by many of, but not necessarily all of, the other features >> listed below: >> >> 1. Transformative: Once understood, a threshold concept changes the >> way in which the student views the discipline. >> 2. Troublesome: Threshold concepts are likely to be troublesome for >> the student. Perkins [1999, 2006] has suggested that knowledge can be >> troublesome e.g. when it is counter-intuitive, alien or seemingly >> incoherent. >> 3. Irreversible: Given their transformative potential, threshold >> concepts are also likely to be irreversible, i.e. they are difficult to >> unlearn. >> 4. Integrative: Threshold concepts, once learned, are likely to bring >> together different aspects of the subject that previously did not appear, >> to the student, to be related. >> 5. Bounded: A threshold concept will probably delineate a particular >> conceptual space, serving a specific and limited purpose. >> 6. Discursive: Meyer and Land [2] suggest that the crossing of a >> threshold will incorporate an enhanced and extended use of language. >> 7. Reconstitutive: "Understanding a threshold concept may entail a >> shift in learner subjectivity, which is implied through the transformative >> and discursive aspects already noted. Such reconstitution is, perhaps, more >> likely to be recognised initially by others, and also to take place over >> time (Smith)". >> 8. Liminality: Meyer and Land [4] have likened the crossing of the >> pedagogic threshold to a ?rite of passage? (drawing on the ethnographical >> studies of Gennep and of Turner in which a transitional or liminal space >> has to be traversed; ?in short, there is no simple passage in learning from >> ?easy? to ?difficult?; mastery of a threshold concept often involves messy >> journeys back, forth and across conceptual terrain. (Cousin [2006])?. >> >> Thank you! (And thanks again to David, re: magic gateways) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Saturday, June 20, 2020, David Kellogg wrote: >> >>> You know, nothing is quite as complicated as trying to be simple about >>> something complex. So Anthony wanted me to talk about a "threshold concept" >>> in Halliday, and even gave me chapter and verse about what this might >>> involve. >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/6qf1qz__;!!Mih3wA!R3t7j-EQqWNC7OrUEsrr2d4mYAr2ZQt7UtWp6wHHG958h2N8RiTrFx-jSwRJELvbISAdLA$ >>> >>> >>> Halliday was, first and foremost, a teacher like you and me. That's why >>> he rejected the whole distinction between grammar and vocabulary, it's how >>> he ended up involved in the Chinese revolution, it's why he asked--and even >>> answered--teacherly questions like "How big is a language?" (depends on >>> where you are and where you are going, but it can be calculated) and "Does >>> Chomsky's distinction between surface and deep structure help you teach or >>> learn anything at all?" (no) and "What is 'difficulty' and how much of it >>> can we blame on the text rather than the child?" (it depends on how willing >>> you are to divorce the text from the child's understanding of it). >>> >>> I think that precisely because he was a teacher like you and me, he >>> wouldn't have liked the concept of "threshold concept": a single "aha" >>> moment that retrospectively transforms the way you think about a whole >>> domain like language. Yet in another sense, precisely because he was a >>> teacher like you and me, he inisisted on free choice (yes, with consent!) >>> as the organizing principle of lexicogrammar ("grammar-and-vocabulary", >>> where the "and" is to be understood in a fully Spinozan way). So he sees >>> child development as a series of magic gateways--the differentiation of >>> meaningful choices, some of which are more meaningful than others. The most >>> meaningful one is not "that gateway"--the one you are looking back upon in >>> satisfaction--but "this gateway"--the one you find yourself on the >>> threshold of. The magic is simply in the fact that you know that beyond >>> that gateway there are even greater gateways. >>> >>> Or rather more delicate gateways. Halliday used to say that you can >>> really start anywhere when you are describing a complex phenomenon, so long >>> as you remember that beyond one degree of delicacy there are infinitely >>> others. So I think that the description I gave of the magic gateway here is >>> adequate at about eighth grade level, with two amendments: >>> >>> a) The "iinterpersonal metafunction" is singular and not plural. >>> Functions like "Mood" are sub-functions of this single uber-function that >>> is the child's magic gateway into the whole of language. And of course >>> beyond that gateway lie other gateways, e.g. "Subject", "Finite", etc. The >>> same is true of the "textual metafunction" (Theme, Rheme) and the >>> "ideational metafunction" (one of the very rare sources of disagreement >>> between Halliday and Ruqaiya Hasan was that she insisted that there were >>> really two different ideational metafunctions, the logical and the >>> experientail, while Halliday preferred to see them as subfunctions of one). >>> >>> b) The "who" (interpersonal), the "how" (textual) and the "what" >>> (ideational) are not the names of questions ("Who are you?", "How are you?" >>> and "What are you made of?" are not three different metafunctions). They >>> are labels for the metafunctions, attempts by me to simplify a complex >>> terminology. But a name is just a gateway, and beyond each vague name there >>> must necessarily be a more delicate and therefore more definite one. >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!R3t7j-EQqWNC7OrUEsrr2d4mYAr2ZQt7UtWp6wHHG958h2N8RiTrFx-jSwRJELsjptvYxw$ >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!R3t7j-EQqWNC7OrUEsrr2d4mYAr2ZQt7UtWp6wHHG958h2N8RiTrFx-jSwRJELucc5adzw$ >>> >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200622/fbe6787b/attachment-0001.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Jun 22 17:32:13 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 09:32:13 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Mr. Dave: I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VL3l923bVevqy0uIV9R1xYJqamiJDFZsehQFWApEshHBZT1gTIWTkHGtI0TbBe66JN3bAQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VL3l923bVevqy0uIV9R1xYJqamiJDFZsehQFWApEshHBZT1gTIWTkHGtI0TbBe4hIYLkfA$ On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave wrote: > > David? > > Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a > conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it > might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put > three points to express myself. > > *Point 1:* > > When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets > of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my > feelings/sentiments founded on *philosophy of humanity* to work on the > issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if > they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. > > If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be > discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our *sentiments and > emotions on humanitarian concepts* and second leg on the horse of *facts > of* *the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic > formation, *I think he will never succeed in his task. > > *Point 2:* > > Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? > I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on > page 28 as the article is very long. > > [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be > two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic > formations and both????.? > > It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is > mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of > enjoyment through their abilities only.?] > > The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be > overlooked with our *justice and good conscience*. > > *Point 3:* > > As concluded by David, > > ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in > the USA using concepts??? > > I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in > India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might > think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics > remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: > >> Anthony-- >> >> I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that >> Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are >> related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they >> are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not >> classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by >> relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups >> that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular >> professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in >> India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" >> in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when >> he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into >> interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory >> and psychology! >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VL3l923bVevqy0uIV9R1xYJqamiJDFZsehQFWApEshHBZT1gTIWTkHGtI0TbBe66JN3bAQ$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VL3l923bVevqy0uIV9R1xYJqamiJDFZsehQFWApEshHBZT1gTIWTkHGtI0TbBe4hIYLkfA$ >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >>> Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense >>> is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have >>> a nice day, regardless. >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for >>>> the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? >>>> just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are >>>> discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for >>>> the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take >>>> its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended >>>> articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or >>>> more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. >>>> Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and >>>> it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. >>>> >>>> I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 >>>> June 2020. >>>> >>>> There are two most probable answers. >>>> >>>> 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of >>>> racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. >>>> >>>> 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests >>>> and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European >>>> people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. >>>> >>>> I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the >>>> one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold >>>> good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. >>>> >>>> It is a mistake to believe that *the attitude of discrimination* and *sickness >>>> of racism *harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above >>>> altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of *mental socio >>>> economic formation status* of two men. There is a basic difference >>>> between the two statuses of *mental socio economic formation *of black >>>> people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I >>>> believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio >>>> economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people >>>> constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is >>>> equally true for two classes of peoples at different *mental socio >>>> economic formation status* also. But, here (in the USA) both the >>>> classes of people are living in the same society with one >>>> *constitution* and uniform *rule of laws*. It is absurd to believe >>>> that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21 >>>> st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each >>>> and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present >>>> society of the USA with different levels of *mental socio economic >>>> formation status*. It is really a complicated situation when the >>>> society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members >>>> of the society are with varying levels of *mental socio economic >>>> formation status* in the same society. Let me present part of the >>>> message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. >>>> >>>> Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. >>>> >>>> ?*I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of >>>> bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white >>>> and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of >>>> making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, >>>> nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this >>>> that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which >>>> I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of >>>> social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while >>>> they do remain together there must be the position of superior and >>>> inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior >>>> position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not >>>> perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the >>>> negro should be denied everything.*? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Here it is between the lines that difference in the *mental socio >>>> economic formation status* could be compensated to some extent, but >>>> for equality people with backward *mental socio economic formation >>>> status* will have to work hard to develop the same. >>>> >>>> I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the >>>> issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the >>>> subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the >>>> real cause harbors. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Harshad Dave >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Harshad: >>>>> >>>>> I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the >>>>> references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. >>>>> As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to >>>>> shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to >>>>> do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and >>>>> certainly profitted from the looting politically). >>>>> >>>>> "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist >>>>> Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss >>>>> Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you >>>>> probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of >>>>> apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term >>>>> used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is >>>>> euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and >>>>> "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". >>>>> >>>>> Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. >>>>> Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are >>>>> lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of >>>>> slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time >>>>> I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong >>>>> from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of >>>>> class. >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>> >>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VL3l923bVevqy0uIV9R1xYJqamiJDFZsehQFWApEshHBZT1gTIWTkHGtI0TbBe66JN3bAQ$ >>>>> >>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VL3l923bVevqy0uIV9R1xYJqamiJDFZsehQFWApEshHBZT1gTIWTkHGtI0TbBe4hIYLkfA$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear all there, >>>>>> >>>>>> We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA >>>>>> under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on >>>>>> the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and >>>>>> discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in >>>>>> newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We >>>>>> just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out >>>>>> burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against >>>>>> apartheid was the major cry behind them. >>>>>> Though there are various vital aspects of the event, *apartheid* >>>>>> remained prime of them. >>>>>> I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. >>>>>> >>>>>> Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people >>>>>> of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to >>>>>> perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the >>>>>> europeans changed to black like negro. >>>>>> I ask my friends, "What will be the status of *apartheid* in this >>>>>> situation?" >>>>>> >>>>>> NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your >>>>>> views on the above question will help me to write my views with more >>>>>> clarity in the article. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Harshad Dave >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200623/399e1c2b/attachment.html From VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za Tue Jun 23 02:54:49 2020 From: VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za (Mary van der Riet) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 09:54:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I agree Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Mr. Dave: I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TSjxRZNvMM9E_Fxpr61FuZbtdmS2LqgbJ1zNHqtehEMf9FHvEvwI66x315TOM1STR-FUHQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TSjxRZNvMM9E_Fxpr61FuZbtdmS2LqgbJ1zNHqtehEMf9FHvEvwI66x315TOM1RXHk7njQ$ On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: David? Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. Point 1: When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. Point 2: Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both????.? It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.?] The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. Point 3: As concluded by David, ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts??? I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. Regards, Harshad Dave On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony-- I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TSjxRZNvMM9E_Fxpr61FuZbtdmS2LqgbJ1zNHqtehEMf9FHvEvwI66x315TOM1STR-FUHQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TSjxRZNvMM9E_Fxpr61FuZbtdmS2LqgbJ1zNHqtehEMf9FHvEvwI66x315TOM1RXHk7njQ$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. Anthony On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. Hi, This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. There are two most probable answers. 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. ?I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.? Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. Regards, Harshad Dave On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Dear Harshad: I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TSjxRZNvMM9E_Fxpr61FuZbtdmS2LqgbJ1zNHqtehEMf9FHvEvwI66x315TOM1STR-FUHQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TSjxRZNvMM9E_Fxpr61FuZbtdmS2LqgbJ1zNHqtehEMf9FHvEvwI66x315TOM1RXHk7njQ$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear all there, We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. Regards, Harshad Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200623/12adba21/attachment.html From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Tue Jun 23 04:01:40 2020 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 14:01:40 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] tkp_covid-19_bulletin.pdf Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200623/e063c29e/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: tkp_covid-19_bulletin.pdf Type: application/octet-stream Size: 795067 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200623/e063c29e/attachment-0001.obj From hhdave15@gmail.com Tue Jun 23 04:38:48 2020 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 17:08:48 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Prof. David, Your message reads... "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. Point 1 If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of *the mental socioeconomic formation* between the two. Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that *?it is justified?*. Please, try to understand me?. ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? OR ?If it is justified OR not justified? is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned ?Level difference?. Point 2 You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have *scientific understanding* and *scientific basis*.? I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe? *an outcome of contemplation* and *a logical compliance* are the supports and justifications of any *thinker* to present his views. If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are *rules* and *laws*. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. Regards, Harshad Dave On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet wrote: > I agree > > > > *Mary van der Riet (Phd), **Associate Professor* > *Discipline of Psychology, **School of Applied Human Sciences, College of > Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa* > *email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za > **tel: +27 33 260 6163* > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Dear Mr. Dave: > > I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a > shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly > does not belong on this list. > > "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were > living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio > economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and > downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned > and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads > of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the > pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status > was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they > were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. > Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give > consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and > structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides > face while they have to interact with each others." > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!St0YqHrbwoDeTDSuI2Wk8CaVD4h02_zuhOnrl4DCulGEff-GrICrQdIOty8j3xpTKNUgmw$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!St0YqHrbwoDeTDSuI2Wk8CaVD4h02_zuhOnrl4DCulGEff-GrICrQdIOty8j3xougpcbYw$ > > > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave wrote: > > > David? > > Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a > conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it > might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put > three points to express myself. > > *Point 1:* > > When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets > of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my > feelings/sentiments founded on *philosophy of humanity* to work on the > issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if > they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. > > If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be > discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our *sentiments and > emotions on humanitarian concepts* and second leg on the horse of *facts > of* *the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic > formation, *I think he will never succeed in his task. > > *Point 2:* > > Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? > I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on > page 28 as the article is very long. > > [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be > two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic > formations and both????.? > > It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is > mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of > enjoyment through their abilities only.?] > > The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be > overlooked with our *justice and good conscience*. > > *Point 3:* > > As concluded by David, > > ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in > the USA using concepts??? > > I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in > India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might > think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics > remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Anthony-- > > I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that > Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are > related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they > are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not > classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by > relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups > that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular > professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in > India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" > in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when > he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into > interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory > and psychology! > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!St0YqHrbwoDeTDSuI2Wk8CaVD4h02_zuhOnrl4DCulGEff-GrICrQdIOty8j3xpTKNUgmw$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!St0YqHrbwoDeTDSuI2Wk8CaVD4h02_zuhOnrl4DCulGEff-GrICrQdIOty8j3xougpcbYw$ > > > > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is > that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a > nice day, regardless. > > Anthony > > > > On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave wrote: > > > > Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. > > Hi, > > This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for > the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? > just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are > discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for > the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take > its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended > articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or > more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. > Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and > it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. > > I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 > June 2020. > > There are two most probable answers. > > 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism > (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. > > 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests > and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European > people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. > > I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one > out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, > but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. > > It is a mistake to believe that * the attitude of discrimination* and *sickness > of racism *harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above > altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of *mental socio economic > formation status* of two men. There is a basic difference between the two > statuses of *mental socio economic formation *of black people of African > origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass > of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has > fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with > backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of > peoples at different *mental socio economic formation status* also. But, > here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society > with one *constitution* and uniform *rule of laws*. It is absurd to > believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA > (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each > and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present > society of the USA with different levels of *mental socio economic > formation status*. It is really a complicated situation when the society > is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the > society are with varying levels of *mental socio economic formation > status* in the same society. Let me present part of the message of > Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. > > Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. > > ?*I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing > about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black > races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making > voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to > intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there > is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe > will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and > political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do > remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I > as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position > assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that > because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be > denied everything.*? > > > > Here it is between the lines that difference in the *mental socio > economic formation status* could be compensated to some extent, but for > equality people with backward *mental socio economic formation status* > will have to work hard to develop the same. > > I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue > of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject > matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real > cause harbors. > > > > Regards, > > > > Harshad Dave > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Dear Harshad: > > I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the > references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. > As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to > shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to > do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and > certainly profitted from the looting politically). > > "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, > who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and > Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, > prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which > Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my > hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is > euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and > "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". > > Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many > "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter > than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave > owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I > visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from > Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!St0YqHrbwoDeTDSuI2Wk8CaVD4h02_zuhOnrl4DCulGEff-GrICrQdIOty8j3xpTKNUgmw$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!St0YqHrbwoDeTDSuI2Wk8CaVD4h02_zuhOnrl4DCulGEff-GrICrQdIOty8j3xougpcbYw$ > > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave wrote: > > > Dear all there, > > We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA > under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on > the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and > discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in > newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We > just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out > burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against > apartheid was the major cry behind them. > Though there are various vital aspects of the event, *apartheid* remained > prime of them. > I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. > > Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the > USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to > perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the > europeans changed to black like negro. > I ask my friends, "What will be the status of *apartheid* in this > situation?" > > NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views > on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in > the article. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200623/a4e38e8f/attachment.html From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Tue Jun 23 05:08:27 2020 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 12:08:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: This is horribly troubling Racist eugenics Please stop Phillip Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave wrote: ? Dear Prof. David, Your message reads... "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. Point 1 If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that ?it is justified?. Please, try to understand me?. ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? OR ?If it is justified OR not justified? is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned ?Level difference?. Point 2 You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis.? I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe? an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. Regards, Harshad Dave On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: I agree Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Mr. Dave: I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TYTwaYXirW4SukSh7uIoiN2Bnlx4nNOPPyJiP4rHSTraeuK6bHAzSBGcp_3qGlrrvrQ4og$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TYTwaYXirW4SukSh7uIoiN2Bnlx4nNOPPyJiP4rHSTraeuK6bHAzSBGcp_3qGlprjW-oyw$ On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: David? Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. Point 1: When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. Point 2: Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both????.? It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.?] The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. Point 3: As concluded by David, ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts??? I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. Regards, Harshad Dave On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony-- I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TYTwaYXirW4SukSh7uIoiN2Bnlx4nNOPPyJiP4rHSTraeuK6bHAzSBGcp_3qGlrrvrQ4og$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TYTwaYXirW4SukSh7uIoiN2Bnlx4nNOPPyJiP4rHSTraeuK6bHAzSBGcp_3qGlprjW-oyw$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. Anthony On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. Hi, This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. There are two most probable answers. 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. ?I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.? Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. Regards, Harshad Dave On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Dear Harshad: I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TYTwaYXirW4SukSh7uIoiN2Bnlx4nNOPPyJiP4rHSTraeuK6bHAzSBGcp_3qGlrrvrQ4og$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TYTwaYXirW4SukSh7uIoiN2Bnlx4nNOPPyJiP4rHSTraeuK6bHAzSBGcp_3qGlprjW-oyw$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear all there, We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. Regards, Harshad Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200623/1dad6b75/attachment.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Tue Jun 23 06:38:30 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 13:38:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Harshad Dave, I am afraid history has shown us again and again that these are not issues of agreement or disagreement, but of our communities risking being compliant and supportive of oppression. I am sure you have your own convictions of what is fair scientific and philosophic discussion, but I can assure you that what you are arguing for in your recently distributed text and posts is not something that is up for discussion here. I don?t think anyone here thinks that ?color of skin? is the cause of anything; I trust that list member?s understanding of the significance of history and of sociocultural context in human development is sophisticated enough not to reduce issues in that gross manner. This makes understanding the motivation for your argumentation even more difficult. It would be great to have the opportunity to discuss with you, so that you could become aware of the deeply problematic nature of the type of arguments that you are making; but I am afraid that the mere risk of having that discussion here exceeds by far the benefits of having you understand how deeply unscientific and unethical the paragraph that David is quoting from your text is. So, please, take serious consideration of the voices of concern being raised here, do a proper reading of history and of the available literature ? including a revision of what it means to be scientific and to be philosophical - and please do not argue the issue any longer here (just as we do not discuss whether Earth is flat). You cannot present a pseudo-scientific argument referring to brain structures and DNA to support a supremacist claim first (yes, that is what it is whether you?d like to acknowledge it or not), and then claim that your claim does not require of scientific support in the name of philosophy. Alfredo From: on behalf of "White, Phillip" Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 14:13 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. This is horribly troubling Racist eugenics Please stop Phillip Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave wrote: Dear Prof. David, Your message reads... "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. Point 1 If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that ?it is justified?. Please, try to understand me?. ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? OR ?If it is justified OR not justified? is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned ?Level difference?. Point 2 You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis.? I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe? an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. Regards, Harshad Dave On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: I agree Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Mr. Dave: I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WWDEyvN29yRmxZ-v0W7xm6RsLFIIDgEkn6xfvBFXScnUAlAOhv61lxF14CoIe3jWcB5BKw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WWDEyvN29yRmxZ-v0W7xm6RsLFIIDgEkn6xfvBFXScnUAlAOhv61lxF14CoIe3jGCYQCYw$ On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: David? Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. Point 1: When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. Point 2: Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both????.? It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.?] The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. Point 3: As concluded by David, ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts??? I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. Regards, Harshad Dave On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony-- I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WWDEyvN29yRmxZ-v0W7xm6RsLFIIDgEkn6xfvBFXScnUAlAOhv61lxF14CoIe3jWcB5BKw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WWDEyvN29yRmxZ-v0W7xm6RsLFIIDgEkn6xfvBFXScnUAlAOhv61lxF14CoIe3jGCYQCYw$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. Anthony On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. Hi, This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. There are two most probable answers. 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. ?I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.? Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. Regards, Harshad Dave On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Dear Harshad: I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WWDEyvN29yRmxZ-v0W7xm6RsLFIIDgEkn6xfvBFXScnUAlAOhv61lxF14CoIe3jWcB5BKw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WWDEyvN29yRmxZ-v0W7xm6RsLFIIDgEkn6xfvBFXScnUAlAOhv61lxF14CoIe3jGCYQCYw$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear all there, We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. Regards, Harshad Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200623/d3f9eadc/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Jun 23 07:03:40 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 07:03:40 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: +1 On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 6:40 AM Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Harshad Dave, > > > > I am afraid history has shown us again and again that these are not issues > of agreement or disagreement, but of our communities risking being > compliant and supportive of oppression. I am sure you have your own > convictions of what is fair scientific and philosophic discussion, but I > can assure you that what you are arguing for in your recently distributed > text and posts is not something that is up for discussion here. I don?t > think anyone here thinks that ?color of skin? is the cause of anything; I > trust that list member?s understanding of the significance of history and > of sociocultural context in human development is sophisticated enough not > to reduce issues in that gross manner. This makes understanding the > motivation for your argumentation even more difficult. > > > > It would be great to have the opportunity to discuss with you, so that you > could become aware of the deeply problematic nature of the type of > arguments that you are making; but I am afraid that the mere risk of having > that discussion here exceeds by far the benefits of having you understand > how deeply unscientific and unethical the paragraph that David is quoting > from your text is. So, please, take serious consideration of the voices of > concern being raised here, do a proper reading of history and of the > available literature ? including a revision of what it means to be > scientific and to be philosophical - and please do not argue the issue any > longer here (just as we do not discuss whether Earth is flat). You cannot > present a pseudo-scientific argument referring to brain structures and DNA > to support a supremacist claim first (yes, that is what it is whether you?d > like to acknowledge it or not), and then claim that your claim does not > require of scientific support in the name of philosophy. > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * on behalf of "White, Phillip" < > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 14:13 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > This is horribly troubling > > Racist eugenics > > Please stop > > > > Phillip > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave wrote: > > > Dear Prof. David, > > > > Your message reads... > > "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without > a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It > certainly does not belong on this list." > > > > I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you > might catch the sound of my saying. > > > > Point 1 > > If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution > of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great > misunderstanding. > > > > Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd > or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism > in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible > for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. > > Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of > the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of *the > mental socioeconomic formation* between the two. > > Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that *?it > is justified?*. > > Please, try to understand me?. > > ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? > > OR > > ?If it is justified OR not justified? > > is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said > ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above > mentioned ?Level difference?. > > > > Point 2 > > You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in > my previous message. > > If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your > message, I think you pointed out? > > ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have *scientific > understanding* and *scientific basis*.? > > I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched > if they have scientific support as above. I believe? *an outcome of > contemplation* and *a logical compliance* are the supports and > justifications of any *thinker* to present his views. > > If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to > support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his > views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not > claimed the views are *rules* and *laws*. If readers do not agree with > them, the views automatically will become null and void. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: > > I agree > > > > > > > > *Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor* > > *Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of > Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa* > > *email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za > tel: +27 33 260 6163* > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear Mr. Dave: > > > > I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a > shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly > does not belong on this list. > > > > "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were > living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio > economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and > downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned > and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads > of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the > pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status > was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they > were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. > Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give > consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and > structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides > face while they have to interact with each others." > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!R9S5ERYMcrtXAxQzFDXfQB-zmpBNKQf_oEkcKkygY9etQ3ngpNymVRe553RJDo8YAqTgNg$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!R9S5ERYMcrtXAxQzFDXfQB-zmpBNKQf_oEkcKkygY9etQ3ngpNymVRe553RJDo_miaiV1g$ > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave wrote: > > > David? > > Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a > conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it > might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put > three points to express myself. > > *Point 1:* > > When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets > of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my > feelings/sentiments founded on *philosophy of humanity* to work on the > issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if > they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. > > If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be > discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our *sentiments and > emotions on humanitarian concepts* and second leg on the horse of *facts > of* *the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic > formation, *I think he will never succeed in his task. > > *Point 2:* > > Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? > I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on > page 28 as the article is very long. > > [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be > two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic > formations and both????.? > > It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is > mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of > enjoyment through their abilities only.?] > > The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be > overlooked with our *justice and good conscience*. > > *Point 3:* > > As concluded by David, > > ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in > the USA using concepts??? > > I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in > India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might > think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics > remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Anthony-- > > > > I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that > Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are > related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they > are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not > classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by > relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups > that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular > professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in > India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" > in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when > he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into > interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory > and psychology! > > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!R9S5ERYMcrtXAxQzFDXfQB-zmpBNKQf_oEkcKkygY9etQ3ngpNymVRe553RJDo8YAqTgNg$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!R9S5ERYMcrtXAxQzFDXfQB-zmpBNKQf_oEkcKkygY9etQ3ngpNymVRe553RJDo_miaiV1g$ > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is > that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a > nice day, regardless. > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave wrote: > > > > > Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. > > Hi, > > This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for > the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? > just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are > discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for > the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take > its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended > articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or > more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. > Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and > it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. > > I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 > June 2020. > > There are two most probable answers. > > 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism > (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. > > 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests > and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European > people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. > > I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one > out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, > but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. > > It is a mistake to believe that * the attitude of discrimination* and *sickness > of racism *harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above > altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of *mental socio economic > formation status* of two men. There is a basic difference between the two > statuses of *mental socio economic formation *of black people of African > origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass > of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has > fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with > backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of > peoples at different *mental socio economic formation status* also. But, > here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society > with one *constitution* and uniform *rule of laws*. It is absurd to > believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA > (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each > and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present > society of the USA with different levels of *mental socio economic > formation status*. It is really a complicated situation when the society > is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the > society are with varying levels of *mental socio economic formation > status* in the same society. Let me present part of the message of > Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. > > Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. > > ?*I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing > about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black > races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making > voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to > intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there > is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe > will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and > political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do > remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I > as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position > assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that > because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be > denied everything.*? > > > > Here it is between the lines that difference in the *mental socio > economic formation status* could be compensated to some extent, but for > equality people with backward *mental socio economic formation status* > will have to work hard to develop the same. > > I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue > of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject > matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real > cause harbors. > > > > Regards, > > > > Harshad Dave > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Dear Harshad: > > > > I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the > references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. > As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to > shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to > do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and > certainly profitted from the looting politically). > > > > "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, > who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and > Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, > prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which > Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my > hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is > euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and > "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". > > > > Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many > "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter > than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave > owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I > visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from > Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!R9S5ERYMcrtXAxQzFDXfQB-zmpBNKQf_oEkcKkygY9etQ3ngpNymVRe553RJDo8YAqTgNg$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!R9S5ERYMcrtXAxQzFDXfQB-zmpBNKQf_oEkcKkygY9etQ3ngpNymVRe553RJDo_miaiV1g$ > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave wrote: > > > > Dear all there, > > > > We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA > under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on > the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and > discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in > newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We > just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out > burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against > apartheid was the major cry behind them. > > Though there are various vital aspects of the event, *apartheid* remained > prime of them. > > I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. > > > > Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the > USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to > perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the > europeans changed to black like negro. > > I ask my friends, "What will be the status of *apartheid* in this > situation?" > > > > NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views > on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in > the article. > > > > Regards, > > > > Harshad Dave > > > > -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!R9S5ERYMcrtXAxQzFDXfQB-zmpBNKQf_oEkcKkygY9etQ3ngpNymVRe553RJDo-zTePJhg$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200623/58861285/attachment.html From chronaki@uth.gr Tue Jun 23 07:21:45 2020 From: chronaki@uth.gr (Anna Chronaki) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 17:21:45 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: tkp_covid-19_bulletin.pdf In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <79306557-43E8-4CF6-A6AF-F5CC26EEC3CC@uth.gr> Thank you dear Ulvil. Hope all is well at your side. A. > On 23 Jun 2020, at 14:01, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > From simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za Tue Jun 23 10:51:47 2020 From: simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za (Simangele Mayisela) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 17:51:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Friends! I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference. Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. This is horribly troubling Racist eugenics Please stop Phillip Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: ? Dear Prof. David, Your message reads... "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. Point 1 If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that ?it is justified?. Please, try to understand me?. ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? OR ?If it is justified OR not justified? is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned ?Level difference?. Point 2 You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis.? I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe? an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. Regards, Harshad Dave On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: I agree Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Mr. Dave: I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TuiwrubAolXhRb3k0kwx9U77qFZddcntRxq8zfCQM-aornOjmDmXjswmgvVdgSWzBWqLhA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TuiwrubAolXhRb3k0kwx9U77qFZddcntRxq8zfCQM-aornOjmDmXjswmgvVdgSXmYhYryQ$ On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: David? Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. Point 1: When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. Point 2: Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both????.? It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.?] The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. Point 3: As concluded by David, ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts??? I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. Regards, Harshad Dave On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony-- I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TuiwrubAolXhRb3k0kwx9U77qFZddcntRxq8zfCQM-aornOjmDmXjswmgvVdgSWzBWqLhA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TuiwrubAolXhRb3k0kwx9U77qFZddcntRxq8zfCQM-aornOjmDmXjswmgvVdgSXmYhYryQ$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. Anthony On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. Hi, This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. There are two most probable answers. 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. ?I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.? Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. Regards, Harshad Dave On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Dear Harshad: I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TuiwrubAolXhRb3k0kwx9U77qFZddcntRxq8zfCQM-aornOjmDmXjswmgvVdgSWzBWqLhA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TuiwrubAolXhRb3k0kwx9U77qFZddcntRxq8zfCQM-aornOjmDmXjswmgvVdgSXmYhYryQ$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear all there, We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. Regards, Harshad Dave This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200623/feb3231f/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Jun 23 11:12:13 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 18:12:13 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] A distinction concerning the differences on differences Message-ID: David, and venerable others, In defense of myself to be juxtaposed with the injustices of caste in a thread that seems to have inflamed the list on matters of race, I feel a need to step forward to explain a few things that I understand on the matter of caste, and it's not comprehensive, as my knowledge is not deeply informed about caste. While bypassing the controversy of the document in the thread about views on a question, about which seems to have upset so many, and likely that is not unjustified, I want to remind that the list has had long philosophical discussions as long as they are informed by science. We are capable of doing both. I am certain that my view is uninformed on caste, but I think that is because my experience is not having not been raised in a caste society and also that my understanding is shallow. At the same time it is not necessarily a wrong understanding for not being nuanced. First of all Vedic is not Hindu. The Vedas are a text that has been passed down, but it is only historical happening that the Hindus are the inheritors of the Vedas. There are others who are not Hindu who look to the Vedas for inspiration and guidance who are not Hindu, as well. My stance central to this discussion is that no one owns knowledge. No one has the inside track, or the right to keep knowledge from others who want it. The Vedas are an ancient text, in two parts. The first is, to put it simply, a manual about living properly, something in a lot of ancient texts religious or otherwise. The first part is called the "karmakanda," meaning "the section pertaining to that which is worth doing." Karma being action, it has to do with performing right actions that are proper, as in appropriate in a society, and how one might gain through proper actions. A cookbook, in a sense. Do this and you will get that. The second part of the Vedas is made up of texts that pertains to knowledge of the self. It is called the "j?anakanda," meaning "the section pertaining to that which is worth knowing." It is also called "Vedanta," which means "the end of the Vedas" Veda means "knowledge." Every society and every culture has its own Vedas. For Americans, the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution are our Vedas, as well as our Bill of Rights. They are the texts by which we organize our society. This second section of the Vedas is sometimes known as the Upanishads, a term which you might be more familiar. There are other texts not present in the Vedas that possess Vedanta topics, such as the Bhagavad Gita which appears in the middle of the epic tale of the Mahabharata. Anything which pertains to the means of self knowledge is a Vedanta text. To know oneself is not solely a Vedic pursuit. That encouragement resides in many other texts and philosophies. We as westerners are most familiar of this aphorism from Greek philosophers. "Know thyself" So it tends to be a truth all humans can live by. That which is true cannot be denied, otherwise it's not true. As far as caste, it is topic that has been misunderstood, even possibly by the people who practice caste as a way of organizing society. There have been figures in the Vedas themselves, as well as the Puranas (folk tales of gods and their interactions with humans, not unlike Greek mythology), who move from the caste in which they were born, into another. This means caste is not intended to be cast in stone, pun intended. That there is movement between them, but this appears to happen infrequently, but it does happen. I will accommodate for the fact that caste has been extremely hurtful to many, and I do not consider myself an apologist for caste. Still, just as we have evangelists in our society who have the mind to be literal about the bible, there are going to be their counterparts in Hindu society holding to a literal interpretation of caste. That doesn't mean that such Hindus are Vedic per se, just as evangelists may not exactly be Christian, or more specifically, follow the ways of the historical Jesus. As I understand it, caste was intended to be descriptive and not prescriptive. That there is variety in the dispositions of humans, and the notion of caste is meant to describe these differences. In every healthy society to best support the society these dispositions should be organized for the most optimum results. With this in mind, it was considered there are four divisions and for the society to function properly, these divisions balance each other out. These are: the division of educators and teachers, the division of law-makers and law-keepers, the division of wealth-creators, and the division of manual laborers (I'm not sure if this includes artists and musicians or not, but it might, as it has to do with working with the hands). We see this in our own culture that it is failing because there is too much stress on wealth creation, i.e., capitalism. But if we look to *any* society these divisions exist. It is something of a truth. Even companies have these divisions. The notion of duty in Vedic culture is something that we do not express to such a degree if comparing Hindu and western cultures. That's because in the West we stand behind our rights, not our duties. This may be an explanation as to why we have such reactive disdain for caste. If caste are the rules (in those minds who subscribe to that) for how to play the game of life appropriately, then to do one's duty is to play the role into which you were born. Swim in your lane and do the best you can, and you will have lived a good life. I'm being descriptive, nothing else. I myself am unlikely to be a beneficiary of that system, as western women are considered the worst specimens of feminine expression. With regard to varieties of disposition, the pantheon of Hindu gods is also an expression of what we might view as psychological variety. In Hindu culture one takes an "ishta devata" as one's personal god, with which one identifies, as a protector or as an example to live, in terms of self-conduct. Hinduism is not a one-size fits all kind of religion. But let me disabuse that Hindu (a name that was foisted upon them from outsiders) is not Vedic. So unlike what David seems to compart, I really do not know that much about Hinduism. I cannot be held accountable to speak for Hinduism or Hindus and much less so caste. I might only share what little I know, and that's keeping in mind at all times that I'm not an authority, but I offer what I do to the list as a student of these topics, that's prettyy much it. It does seem that ignorance has gotten the better of people. I now am starting to see that perhaps I have been considered on this list as someone I am not, at least by David. That may have a lot to do with cultural ignorance, from which I too may suffer. Don't we all? We all come to know one another over the long journey, and not with a few steps. Kind regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200623/1bd958b6/attachment.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Tue Jun 23 11:51:07 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 18:51:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> Dear S?ma, I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *ideological* basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Simangele Mayisela Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Friends! I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference. Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. This is horribly troubling Racist eugenics Please stop Phillip Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear Prof. David, Your message reads... "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. Point 1 If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that ?it is justified?. Please, try to understand me?. ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? OR ?If it is justified OR not justified? is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned ?Level difference?. Point 2 You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis.? I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe? an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. Regards, Harshad Dave On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: I agree Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Mr. Dave: I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VTJzCDHjdI_Oq9gOQBpoXEb2Ldzm8mbbikpCtsYvuDhCANnrvSxh5X78Zv-wd2cOIqXqZw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VTJzCDHjdI_Oq9gOQBpoXEb2Ldzm8mbbikpCtsYvuDhCANnrvSxh5X78Zv-wd2eerwBDng$ On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: David? Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. Point 1: When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. Point 2: Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both????.? It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.?] The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. Point 3: As concluded by David, ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts??? I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. Regards, Harshad Dave On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony-- I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VTJzCDHjdI_Oq9gOQBpoXEb2Ldzm8mbbikpCtsYvuDhCANnrvSxh5X78Zv-wd2cOIqXqZw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VTJzCDHjdI_Oq9gOQBpoXEb2Ldzm8mbbikpCtsYvuDhCANnrvSxh5X78Zv-wd2eerwBDng$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. Anthony On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. Hi, This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. There are two most probable answers. 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. ?I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.? Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. Regards, Harshad Dave On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Dear Harshad: I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VTJzCDHjdI_Oq9gOQBpoXEb2Ldzm8mbbikpCtsYvuDhCANnrvSxh5X78Zv-wd2cOIqXqZw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VTJzCDHjdI_Oq9gOQBpoXEb2Ldzm8mbbikpCtsYvuDhCANnrvSxh5X78Zv-wd2eerwBDng$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear all there, We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. Regards, Harshad Dave This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200623/5c21cae5/attachment.html From simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za Tue Jun 23 13:09:52 2020 From: simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za (Simangele Mayisela) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 20:09:52 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> Message-ID: Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear S?ma, I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *ideological* basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Friends! I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference. Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. This is horribly troubling Racist eugenics Please stop Phillip Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear Prof. David, Your message reads... "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. Point 1 If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that ?it is justified?. Please, try to understand me?. ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? OR ?If it is justified OR not justified? is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned ?Level difference?. Point 2 You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis.? I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe? an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. Regards, Harshad Dave On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: I agree Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Mr. Dave: I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XB8nRHHpXr-xrAQfvlcWJBJBJuX63XwAS_m_yDyLOSaT4_0us7GHRGz-jGQdJooG7iAfNg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XB8nRHHpXr-xrAQfvlcWJBJBJuX63XwAS_m_yDyLOSaT4_0us7GHRGz-jGQdJorYaIL1ng$ On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: David? Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. Point 1: When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. Point 2: Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both????.? It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.?] The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. Point 3: As concluded by David, ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts??? I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. Regards, Harshad Dave On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony-- I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XB8nRHHpXr-xrAQfvlcWJBJBJuX63XwAS_m_yDyLOSaT4_0us7GHRGz-jGQdJooG7iAfNg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XB8nRHHpXr-xrAQfvlcWJBJBJuX63XwAS_m_yDyLOSaT4_0us7GHRGz-jGQdJorYaIL1ng$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. Anthony On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. Hi, This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. There are two most probable answers. 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. ?I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.? Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. Regards, Harshad Dave On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Dear Harshad: I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XB8nRHHpXr-xrAQfvlcWJBJBJuX63XwAS_m_yDyLOSaT4_0us7GHRGz-jGQdJooG7iAfNg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XB8nRHHpXr-xrAQfvlcWJBJBJuX63XwAS_m_yDyLOSaT4_0us7GHRGz-jGQdJorYaIL1ng$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear all there, We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. Regards, Harshad Dave This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200623/91388b6c/attachment.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Tue Jun 23 13:16:38 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 20:16:38 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> Message-ID: Yes, you do see what I meant, thanks! Alfredo From: on behalf of Simangele Mayisela Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 22:15 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear S?ma, I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *ideological* basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Friends! I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference. Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. This is horribly troubling Racist eugenics Please stop Phillip Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear Prof. David, Your message reads... "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. Point 1 If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that ?it is justified?. Please, try to understand me?. ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? OR ?If it is justified OR not justified? is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned ?Level difference?. Point 2 You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis.? I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe? an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. Regards, Harshad Dave On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: I agree Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Mr. Dave: I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XiBC01qbXvtmqvrL2meMygIqsu9AQsN7PDkNSoiyrrH7avTgwxKrA7oZAkQiq8nEBjOvPQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XiBC01qbXvtmqvrL2meMygIqsu9AQsN7PDkNSoiyrrH7avTgwxKrA7oZAkQiq8mzhVhYwA$ On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: David? Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. Point 1: When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. Point 2: Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both????.? It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.?] The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. Point 3: As concluded by David, ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts??? I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. Regards, Harshad Dave On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony-- I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XiBC01qbXvtmqvrL2meMygIqsu9AQsN7PDkNSoiyrrH7avTgwxKrA7oZAkQiq8nEBjOvPQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XiBC01qbXvtmqvrL2meMygIqsu9AQsN7PDkNSoiyrrH7avTgwxKrA7oZAkQiq8mzhVhYwA$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. Anthony On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. Hi, This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. There are two most probable answers. 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. ?I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.? Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. Regards, Harshad Dave On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Dear Harshad: I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XiBC01qbXvtmqvrL2meMygIqsu9AQsN7PDkNSoiyrrH7avTgwxKrA7oZAkQiq8nEBjOvPQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XiBC01qbXvtmqvrL2meMygIqsu9AQsN7PDkNSoiyrrH7avTgwxKrA7oZAkQiq8mzhVhYwA$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear all there, We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. Regards, Harshad Dave This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200623/c362e8a3/attachment.html From simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za Tue Jun 23 14:32:17 2020 From: simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za (Simangele Mayisela) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 21:32:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> Message-ID: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!V2LYI2I2g-qSP--eE84G38eGWBud9YwatVDWX1IvY27YgsR7kTdkqVGDNoLNCYNmswIv-Q$ Regards S?ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear S?ma, I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *ideological* basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Friends! I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference. Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. This is horribly troubling Racist eugenics Please stop Phillip Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear Prof. David, Your message reads... "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. Point 1 If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that ?it is justified?. Please, try to understand me?. ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? OR ?If it is justified OR not justified? is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned ?Level difference?. Point 2 You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis.? I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe? an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. Regards, Harshad Dave On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: I agree Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Mr. Dave: I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!V2LYI2I2g-qSP--eE84G38eGWBud9YwatVDWX1IvY27YgsR7kTdkqVGDNoLNCYMlGKWQqQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!V2LYI2I2g-qSP--eE84G38eGWBud9YwatVDWX1IvY27YgsR7kTdkqVGDNoLNCYP0lcj88A$ On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: David? Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. Point 1: When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. Point 2: Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both????.? It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.?] The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. Point 3: As concluded by David, ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts??? I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. Regards, Harshad Dave On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony-- I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!V2LYI2I2g-qSP--eE84G38eGWBud9YwatVDWX1IvY27YgsR7kTdkqVGDNoLNCYMlGKWQqQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!V2LYI2I2g-qSP--eE84G38eGWBud9YwatVDWX1IvY27YgsR7kTdkqVGDNoLNCYP0lcj88A$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. Anthony On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. Hi, This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. There are two most probable answers. 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. ?I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.? Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. Regards, Harshad Dave On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Dear Harshad: I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!V2LYI2I2g-qSP--eE84G38eGWBud9YwatVDWX1IvY27YgsR7kTdkqVGDNoLNCYMlGKWQqQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!V2LYI2I2g-qSP--eE84G38eGWBud9YwatVDWX1IvY27YgsR7kTdkqVGDNoLNCYP0lcj88A$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear all there, We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. Regards, Harshad Dave This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200623/9af05619/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Tue Jun 23 14:48:42 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 16:48:42 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> Message-ID: <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) > On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela wrote: > > Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. > > Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!VtvZjJNWsLoPAs9KdI2tkcJkA8lNEqaZrGOciBjzZNGgNiDxwrCVAdJeuBkbfQk_U5d0Jw$ > > Regards > S?ma > > > > From: Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Dear Alfredo > > Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. > > Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? > Regards, > S?ma > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Dear S?ma, > > I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *ideological* basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? > > Alfredo > From: > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Friends! > > I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference. > > Regards, > S?ma > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of White, Phillip > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > This is horribly troubling > Racist eugenics > Please stop > > Phillip > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: > > > Dear Prof. David, > > Your message reads... > "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." > > I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. > > Point 1 > If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. > > Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. > Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. > Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that ?it is justified?. > Please, try to understand me?. > ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? > OR > ?If it is justified OR not justified? > is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned ?Level difference?. > > Point 2 > You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. > If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? > ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis.? > I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe? an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. > If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. > Regards, > Harshad Dave > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: > I agree > > > > Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor > Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa > email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Dear Mr. Dave: > > I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. > > "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VtvZjJNWsLoPAs9KdI2tkcJkA8lNEqaZrGOciBjzZNGgNiDxwrCVAdJeuBkbfQm3iarwhA$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VtvZjJNWsLoPAs9KdI2tkcJkA8lNEqaZrGOciBjzZNGgNiDxwrCVAdJeuBkbfQmwu3cOTg$ > > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: > > David? > > Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. > > Point 1: > > When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. > > If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. > > Point 2: > > Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. > > [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both????.? > > It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.?] > > The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. > > Point 3: > > As concluded by David, > > ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts??? > > I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: > Anthony-- > > I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VtvZjJNWsLoPAs9KdI2tkcJkA8lNEqaZrGOciBjzZNGgNiDxwrCVAdJeuBkbfQm3iarwhA$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VtvZjJNWsLoPAs9KdI2tkcJkA8lNEqaZrGOciBjzZNGgNiDxwrCVAdJeuBkbfQmwu3cOTg$ > > > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. > > Anthony > > > > On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: > > > Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. > > Hi, > > This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. > > I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. > > There are two most probable answers. > > 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. > 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. > > I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. > > It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. > > Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. > ?I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.? > > Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. > I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > Dear Harshad: > > I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). > > "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". > > Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VtvZjJNWsLoPAs9KdI2tkcJkA8lNEqaZrGOciBjzZNGgNiDxwrCVAdJeuBkbfQm3iarwhA$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VtvZjJNWsLoPAs9KdI2tkcJkA8lNEqaZrGOciBjzZNGgNiDxwrCVAdJeuBkbfQmwu3cOTg$ > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: > > Dear all there, > > We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. > Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. > I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. > > Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. > I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" > > NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200623/50a5170a/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Jun 23 14:51:58 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 14:51:58 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?b?RndkOiDwn5OVICIiR2lybCBUYWxrIjogR2VuZGVyLCBlcXVpdHks?= =?utf-8?q?_and_identity_discourses_in_a_school-based_computer_cult?= =?utf-8?q?ure=2E=22_by_Mary_Bryson?= In-Reply-To: <01000172e2fa8501-99abc715-ebd7-4101-a004-84b9237af55c-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <01000172e2fa8501-99abc715-ebd7-4101-a004-84b9237af55c-000000@email.amazonses.com> Message-ID: Here you go, Phillip! Mary must have heard you. mike ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Academia Date: Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 1:59 PM Subject: ? ""Girl Talk": Gender, equity, and identity discourses in a school-based computer culture." by Mary Bryson To: "Girl Talk": Gender, equity, and identity discourses in a school-based computer culture.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? [image: Academia.edu] ------------------------------ >From your Reading History: "Girl Talk": Gender, equity, and identity discourses in a school-based computer culture. [image: Paper Thumbnail] [image: Author Photo] Mary Bryson 2003, Womens Studies International Forum 176 Views View PDF ? Download PDF ? ABSTRACT This article describes how a feminist intervention project in Canada focused on girls? more equitable access to and use of computers created significant opportunities for girls to develop and experience new identities as technology ?experts? within their school. In addition to a significant increase in participants?... read more... Want fewer recommendations like this one? ------------------------------ 580 California St., Suite 400, San Francisco, CA, 94104 Unsubscribe Privacy Policy Terms of Service ? 2020 Academia -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XQDGlbEprNUcNL5QuDWdTKfbiF_1qHb9Vn45k58AUAxQ5F9pCz6lpQmE0jHggfptzc4biQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200623/69ad357e/attachment.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Tue Jun 23 16:11:35 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 23:11:35 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> Message-ID: <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!Une1wxmHesGKd5YW8y_DC-iTy8_dIjM3lm-USHI499gmOaGPXOpujS8LAaOefeKZsw-kwA$ Regards S?ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear S?ma, I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *ideological* basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Friends! I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference. Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. This is horribly troubling Racist eugenics Please stop Phillip Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear Prof. David, Your message reads... "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. Point 1 If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that ?it is justified?. Please, try to understand me?. ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? OR ?If it is justified OR not justified? is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned ?Level difference?. Point 2 You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis.? I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe? an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. Regards, Harshad Dave On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: I agree Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Mr. Dave: I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Une1wxmHesGKd5YW8y_DC-iTy8_dIjM3lm-USHI499gmOaGPXOpujS8LAaOefeJRq_ttwA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Une1wxmHesGKd5YW8y_DC-iTy8_dIjM3lm-USHI499gmOaGPXOpujS8LAaOefeKwzSHk2A$ On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: David? Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. Point 1: When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. Point 2: Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both????.? It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.?] The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. Point 3: As concluded by David, ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts??? I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. Regards, Harshad Dave On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony-- I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Une1wxmHesGKd5YW8y_DC-iTy8_dIjM3lm-USHI499gmOaGPXOpujS8LAaOefeJRq_ttwA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Une1wxmHesGKd5YW8y_DC-iTy8_dIjM3lm-USHI499gmOaGPXOpujS8LAaOefeKwzSHk2A$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. Anthony On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. Hi, This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. There are two most probable answers. 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. ?I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.? Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. Regards, Harshad Dave On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Dear Harshad: I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Une1wxmHesGKd5YW8y_DC-iTy8_dIjM3lm-USHI499gmOaGPXOpujS8LAaOefeJRq_ttwA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Une1wxmHesGKd5YW8y_DC-iTy8_dIjM3lm-USHI499gmOaGPXOpujS8LAaOefeKwzSHk2A$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear all there, We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. Regards, Harshad Dave This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200623/fcacc2ec/attachment-0001.html From andyb@marxists.org Tue Jun 23 18:36:43 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 11:36:43 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars > who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are > or can be, your choice?a video critiquing critical theory > in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance > studies??is ?indeed surprising and remarkable in the > context of this conversation! > > In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist > me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a > Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy > of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social > justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to > indulge people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains > that teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, and > that students are being taught with this critical (or, as > Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going > into whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch > with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, > what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a > good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? > > Alfredo > > *From: * on behalf of > Martin Packer > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Hi Simangele, > > How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I > would say that is something with which psychology has had > some difficulty. > > Martin > > /"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs.?Seligman or?Dr. > Lowie or discuss matters?with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, > I?become at?once?aware that my partner does not understand > anything in the matter, and I end usually?with the?feeling > that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930)/ > > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > > wrote: > > Further, ?I still have more questions, however it does > appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of > the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental > development which are associated to ?skin colour?, > with little consideration of the historical oppression > that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the > third of the global population is what appears to be > of low level of mental functioning. The question is > more about ?what is the quality of the contents of > what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? > with the aim to find evidence for the difference. > > Just to share, lately? have been viewing James Lindsay > argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous > scientific? and ?scholarship? ?vs? popular narratives > that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which > are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that > you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be > warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s > argument on ideologies. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!WCK45j6Y4AscTY1OVN1quxD0_VDKtR1Y9u5SYoUgfTIzhGpvyRCeU6XnFqBCRER8K_5qdw$ > > > Regards > > S?ma > > *From:*Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Dear Alfredo > > Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is > crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But > couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? > and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account > for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked > should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the > ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? > as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the > scientist works from, which informs where the person > ?will land ?in terms of the ideas. > > Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see > what you mean ? > > Regards, > > S?ma > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On Behalf > Of *Alfredo Jornet Gil > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Dear S?ma, > > I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? > basis without first explaining what is meant by > ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such > explanation should be relevant to account for > historical relations across cultures/societies, > specially relations of oppression. I understand your > curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important > to be very clear about this issue and not let it > unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or > philosophical research question. Given all that we > know from history and more precisely from political > economy, the important discussion is not about the > scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its > **ideological** basis: what sort of ideological > inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the > context of this thread and of this moment in history? > There can be no question that there are and there were > differences between the socioeconomic formations of > different cultures and that such cultures were local, > not global or international. So, the problem is not > finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why > that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense > to all of you, does it? > > Alfredo > > *From: * > on behalf of > Simangele Mayisela > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Friends! > > I am curious to read more about the scientific basis > of the ?the difference in the level of /the mental > socioeconomic formation/ between the two.? ?Can > colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of > this difference. > > Regards, > > S?ma > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On Behalf > Of *White, Phillip > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > This is horribly troubling > > Racist eugenics > > Please stop > > Phillip > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > > > wrote: > > > Dear Prof. David, > > Your message reads... > > "I?think?racist filth, devoid of any scientific > understanding and without a shred of scientific > basis,?should not be distributed?anywhere. It > certainly does not belong on this list." > > I request you to go through the following points > carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of > my saying. > > Point 1 > > If my views on the subject matter impress anyone > that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I > think they (my views) are grasped with a great > misunderstanding. > > Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the > unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between > black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of > racism in the event is discussed by all as if the > color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if > it is founded on the color of the skin. > > Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is > not the cause of color of the skin but it (the > cause) harbors in the difference in the level of > /the mental socioeconomic formation/ between the two. > > Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no > where I believed that *?it is justified?*. > > Please, try to understand me?. > > ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not > be there? > > OR > > ?If it is justified OR not justified? > > is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say > the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the > color of the skin but it lies in the above > mentioned ?Level difference?. > > Point 2 > > You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc > file that I attached in my previous message. > > If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of > the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? > > ??The views that I presented in the subject > paragraph do not have /scientific understanding/ > and /scientific basis/.? > > I agree with you that while writing my subject > views I have never searched if they have > scientific support as above. I believe? /an > outcome of contemplation/ and /a logical > compliance/ are the supports and justifications of > any /thinker/ to present his views. > > If people (readers) accept the views no research > paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is > asked to present scientific support for his views > I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut > down. I have not claimed the views are /rules/ and > /laws/. If readers do not agree with them, the > views automatically will become null and void. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > > wrote: > > I agree > > /Mary van der Riet (Phd),?Associate Professor/ > > /Discipline of Psychology,?School of Applied > Human Sciences,?College of > Humanities,?University of KwaZulu-Natal,?South > Africa/ > > /email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ??tel: +27 33 260 6163/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on > behalf of David Kellogg > > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Dear Mr. Dave: > > I?think?racist filth, devoid of any scientific > understanding and without a shred of > scientific basis,?should not be > distributed?anywhere. It certainly does not > belong on this list. > > "Who were the black people that Europeans > brought with them? They were living in > primitive habitations in Africa with very > primitive socio economic formation. Their > forefathers have never passed through the ups > and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the > lessons European people learned and sustained > with and ever before that. The development of > brain threads of the black people and > structure of their DNA are in compliance with > the pattern of life their forefathers passed > through in Africa and its status was in line > with the socio economic formation in which > they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped > as slaves by European people and their agents. > Generally we talk about apartheid but it is > complex issue. We never give consideration to > this fact of difference in brain thread net > work and structure of DNA and consequential > difficulties people of both the sides face > while they have to interact with each others." > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A > manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WCK45j6Y4AscTY1OVN1quxD0_VDKtR1Y9u5SYoUgfTIzhGpvyRCeU6XnFqBCRERMYCX-7Q$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. > Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: > Foundations of Pedology/" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WCK45j6Y4AscTY1OVN1quxD0_VDKtR1Y9u5SYoUgfTIzhGpvyRCeU6XnFqBCRESXToHWyw$ > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > > wrote: > > > David? > > Your message addressed to Anthony > impresses me that you have reached a > conclusion in haste and prematurely about > my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due > to weakness/error in the presentation of > my views.? Here I put three points to > express myself. > > *Point 1:* > > When I contemplate on the issue of racism > (discrimination between two sets of people > from different origin), I temporarily > suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on > /philosophy of humanity/ to work on the > issue impartially. I appeal to all friends > to come out from that cocoon if they want > to have a transparent vision on the > subject issue. > > If anyone believes that the anatomy of the > subject issue might be discovered by > mounting one leg on the horse of our > /sentiments and emotions on humanitarian > concepts/ and second leg on the horse of > /facts of/ /the prevailing social > constitution of latest socio economic > formation, /I think he will never succeed > in his task. > > *Point 2:* > > Here below, I attach one > doc?file....title--- ?Where the shoe > pinches?? I request you to read the points > discussed there on this subject matter on > page 28 as the article is very long. > > [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not > necessary that there should be two > separate nations or habitations with > different levels of socio economic > formations and both????.? > > It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice > and partiality, but it is mandatory that > they must have all the abilities to secure > their right of enjoyment through their > abilities only.?] > > The fact that is discussed in the above > mentioned text cannot be overlooked with > our /justice and good conscience/. > > *Point 3:* > > As concluded by David, > > ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is > trying to reinterpret events in the USA > using concepts??? > > I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree > that the social constitution in India is > influencedby ?cast culture? but there are > people who might think and analyze issues > pertaining to social science and economics > remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David > Kellogg > wrote: > > Anthony-- > > I think Annalisa knows more about this > than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. > Dave is trying to reinterpret events > in the USA using concepts that are > related to the ancient Hindu system of > caste. Castes are not races (they are > even less tied to pigmentation than > race), and they are certainly not > classes (they are reproduced by > marriage and the family rather than by > relations of production): I suppose > they are something like kinship groups > that are tied for historical as well > as religious reasons to particular > professions. Because they are > emphasized in religion (and more > recently in India's communal politics) > they can certainly be said to be > "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I > don't think that this is what Andy has > in mind when he says that cultural > artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture > into interpersonal interaction and > suspend the distinction between social > theory and psychology! > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in > memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WCK45j6Y4AscTY1OVN1quxD0_VDKtR1Y9u5SYoUgfTIzhGpvyRCeU6XnFqBCRERMYCX-7Q$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: > /L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ > /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WCK45j6Y4AscTY1OVN1quxD0_VDKtR1Y9u5SYoUgfTIzhGpvyRCeU6XnFqBCRESXToHWyw$ > > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM > Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Sorry, I have no idea what you're > talking about here, although my > sense is that it's wildly wrong, > in various ways. I am confused but > hope you have a nice day, regardless. > > Anthony > > > On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad > Dave > wrote: > > > Atten.: Anthony Barra and > David Kellog. > > Hi, > > This is with reference to your > replies to my message. I am > thankful for the same and > regret for the delay in reply. > I used the word ?apartheid? > just in the sense of racism, > complains of blacks/brown that > they are discriminated in > social dealing by whites etc. > David Kellog - Thanks for the > detail source of the word > ?apartheid?, however I request > you to take its meaning in the > same sense as expressed above. > The suggested/recommended > articles are viewed in a > glancing by me; I recall I > have read them (one or more) > on Academia web. You will > agree their subject matter is > different. Anthony Barra ? The > article that was recommended > by you is read by me and it > touches on various realities > in the subject matter of our > topic. > > I just put my views against > the question I asked in my > message dtd. 17 June 2020. > > There are two most probable > answers. > > 1.The turned out black > European people will be the > victim of racism > (discrimination) by the turned > out white people from African > origin. > > 2.The situation remains the > same and the world will see > protests and fights on an > issue or against a complaining > that the black European people > discriminate white people of > African origin in the USA. > > I leave it to the readers to > give their logical > consideration to the one out > of the above two, but my > opinion says the second answer > will hold good, but one should > not forget it is just true on > hypothetical presumption. > > It is a mistake to believe > that /the attitude of > discrimination/ and /sickness > of racism /harbor in the color > of the skin. In fact above > altitude/sickness is founded > on the difference of */mental > socio economic formation > status/* of two men. There is > a basic difference between the > two statuses of /mental socio > economic formation /of black > people of African origin and > that of white people of > European origin. I believe > that a mass of people > constituting a society with > advanced socio economic > formation has fair chances to > exploit the mass of people > constituting a society with > backward socio economic > formation. It is equally true > for two classes of peoples at > different /mental socio > economic formation status/ > also. But, here (in the USA) > both the classes of people are > living in the same society > with one /constitution/ and > uniform /rule of laws/. It is > absurd to believe that the > present socio economic > formation of the society of > the USA (21^st century) has > prevailed and occupied equally > and uniformly by each and > every citizen of the USA. One > might find various people in > the present society of the USA > with different levels of > /mental socio economic > formation status/. It is > really a complicated situation > when the society is throughout > with the latest socio economic > formation and members of the > society are with varying > levels of /mental socio > economic formation status/ in > the same society. Let me > present part of the message of > Abraham Lincoln before I > finish this message. > > Fourth Debate: Charleston, > Illinois ? September 18, 1858. > > ?/I will say then that I am > not, nor ever have been, in > favor of bringing about in any > way the social and political > equality of the white and > black races, [applause]-that I > am not nor ever have been in > favor of making voters or > jurors of negroes, nor of > qualifying them to hold > office, nor to intermarry with > white people; and I will say > in addition to this that there > is a physical difference > between the white and black > races which I believe will > forever forbid the two races > living together on terms of > social and political equality. > And inasmuch as they cannot so > live, while they do remain > together there must be the > position of superior and > inferior, and I as much as any > other man am in favor of > having the superior position > assigned to the white race. I > say upon this occasion I do > not perceive that because the > white man is to have the > superior position the negro > should be denied everything./? > > Here it is between the lines > that difference in the /mental > socio economic formation > status/could be compensated to > some extent, but for equality > people with backward /mental > socio economic formation > status/will have to work hard > to develop the same. > > I clarify, neither I am in > favor of nor against the > victims of the issue of > discrimination and racism as > far as my contemplation on the > subject matter is to be > carried out. But, I just want > to explain where the real > cause harbors. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 > PM David Kellogg > > > wrote: > > Dear Harshad: > > I am still a little > stunned by the last post > you wrote, with all the > references to predatory > shopkeepers. It sounded > like the stuff of a > pogrom. As we discussed in > the "My Hometown > Minneapolis" thread, the > threats to shopkeepers in > Minneapolis often targeted > South Asians, and had > nothing to do with the > police (except that the > police may have been > involved and certainly > profitted from the looting > politically). > > "Apartheid" is a term > invented by the South > African sociologist > Verwoerd, who studied with > the Gestalists. Some > Gestaltists, like Narziss > Ach and Felix Krueger, > became Nazis; Verwoerd > himself became, as you > probably know, prime > minister of South Africa > and brought in the system > of apartheid which Gandhi > struggled against during > his early years. The term > used in my hometown > Minneapolis is not > "apartheid" but > segregation: it is > euphemistically referred > to as?"redlining" (by > insurance companies) and > "racial covenants" but not > as "apartheid". > > Segregation and Jim Crow > in Minneapolis is not > based on pigmentation. > Many "white" people are > darker than blacks, and > many black people are > lighter than whites, > because of the centuries > of rape and the > enthusiasm?of slave owners > for the practice of > selling their own > children. The last time I > visited the "housing > project"near where I grew > up it was full of Hmong > from Southeast Asia. > Segregation in Minneapolis > is above all a matter of > class. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya > Hasan, in memoriam: A > manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WCK45j6Y4AscTY1OVN1quxD0_VDKtR1Y9u5SYoUgfTIzhGpvyRCeU6XnFqBCRERMYCX-7Q$ > > > New Translation with > Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. > Vygotsky's Pedological > Works/ /Volume One: > Foundations of Pedology/" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WCK45j6Y4AscTY1OVN1quxD0_VDKtR1Y9u5SYoUgfTIzhGpvyRCeU6XnFqBCRESXToHWyw$ > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at > 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > > > wrote: > > Dear all there, > > We all are aware of > the event of the death > of George Floyd in the > USA under police > custody. There are > flows of opinions, > comments and views on > the event with > different aspects all > over the world. There > are debates and > discussions on the > event on innumerable > web sites, we find > them in newspapers and > among the talks of > people at private and > public places. We just > do not talk about > riots and other events > happened under agony > and out burst of anger > on the unfortunate > death of Floyd, > however, voice against > apartheid was the > major cry behind them. > > Though there are > various vital aspects > of the event, > */apartheid/* remained > prime of them. > > I simply ask one > question to my friends > who read this post. > > Let us > hypothetically?presume, > on one day fine > morning, when people > of the USA awake, they > find that skin color > of all the blacks is > changed to perfectly > white like european > people and the skin > color of all the > europeans changed to > black like negro. > > I ask my friends, > "What will be the > status of > */apartheid/* in this > situation?" > > NB: I write one > article on the ill > fated event and its > aspects. Your views on > the above question > will help me to write > my views with more > clarity in the article. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. > It is confidential. If you have received this > communication in error, please notify us immediately > and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission > of the University. Only authorised signatories are > competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the > University and recipients are thus advised that the > content of this message may not be legally binding on > the University and may contain the personal views and > opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the > views and opinions of The University of the > Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between > the University and outsiders are subject to South > African Law unless the University agrees in writing to > the contrary. > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. > It is confidential. If you have received this > communication in error, please notify us immediately > and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission > of the University. Only authorised signatories are > competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the > University and recipients are thus advised that the > content of this message may not be legally binding on > the University and may contain the personal views and > opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the > views and opinions of The University of the > Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between > the University and outsiders are subject to South > African Law unless the University agrees in writing to > the contrary. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200624/e575e9e6/attachment.html From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Tue Jun 23 19:39:54 2020 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 02:39:54 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?b?IFJlOiAJRndkOiDwn5OVICIiR2lybCBUYWxrIjogR2VuZGVyLCBl?= =?utf-8?q?quity=2C_and_identity_discourses_in_a_school-based_computer_cul?= =?utf-8?q?ture=2E=22_by_Mary_Bryson?= In-Reply-To: References: <01000172e2fa8501-99abc715-ebd7-4101-a004-84b9237af55c-000000@email.amazonses.com>, Message-ID: this is so like Mary - many thanks!!! phillip ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 3:51 PM To: XMCA Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: ? ""Girl Talk": Gender, equity, and identity discourses in a school-based computer culture." by Mary Bryson Here you go, Phillip! Mary must have heard you. mike ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Academia > Date: Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 1:59 PM Subject: ? ""Girl Talk": Gender, equity, and identity discourses in a school-based computer culture." by Mary Bryson To: > "Girl Talk": Gender, equity, and identity discourses in a school-based computer culture.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? [Academia.edu] ________________________________ >From your Reading History: "Girl Talk": Gender, equity, and identity discourses in a school-based computer culture. [Paper Thumbnail] [Author Photo] Mary Bryson 2003, Womens Studies International Forum 176 Views View PDF ? Download PDF ? ABSTRACT This article describes how a feminist intervention project in Canada focused on girls? more equitable access to and use of computers created significant opportunities for girls to develop and experience new identities as technology ?experts? within their school. In addition to a significant increase in participants?... read more... Want fewer recommendations like this one? ________________________________ [https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://a.academia-assets.com/images/emails/inky/app-store-badge@2x.jpg__;!!Mih3wA!Uy24df4AGg969A-tMazV-v7JUtperV2qoisw2oilnn-CGLcwP2Dsuw07iZ-E0MbI6YZ2wQ$ ] 580 California St., Suite 400, San Francisco, CA, 94104 Unsubscribe Privacy Policy Terms of Service ? 2020 Academia -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Uy24df4AGg969A-tMazV-v7JUtperV2qoisw2oilnn-CGLcwP2Dsuw07iZ-E0MbN_GFm2g$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200624/ce83033a/attachment.html From simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za Wed Jun 24 00:32:19 2020 From: simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za (Simangele Mayisela) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 07:32:19 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> Message-ID: Hi Martin I am glad you have asked that question? As I suppose we very well know that from a socio-cultural perspectives, the Vygotsky?s law of mental development ? the two interlaced lines of development, posits that humans have a genetical predisposition for development, the development of the mental skills is in relation to their exposure the social practices (some of which are imposed by oppressive systems and the adaptation for survival creating culture) ? in which case social practices can be viewed as a ?norm? for judging the development of cognitive skills. This is where the argument on social inequities comes in, whether those subjected to historical privilege, develop cognitive tools that are appropriated to establish ?levels of mental functioning? of subjects of inequities and oppression, while holding the ?ideologies? that I suppose Alfredo and some of the contributors to this site may have referred to earlier on, that are concerning for humanity. But I must say the argument of ?levels of mental functioning? should not be viewed outside of the old agenda of the development of economies, since these have an influence on ?scientific basis? of understanding of human development as mental tools (human capital) for the purpose of developing and sustaining economies. Surely we can see these ?levels of mental functioning? play out in the education system ? more so in higher education where the class society is sustained, through inclusion and exclusion in the economic food chain. Back to the video I suggested in my previous email, James Lindsay ?ideology? that is anti-Critical Theory is very concerning for me, if any of you had an opportunity to view this interviews, or any of his youtube videos, I would like to have your views on his developing ideology and movement. I will end here for now Martin, and I may not have adequately responded to your question. Regards, Simangele From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Martin Packer Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 23:49 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!XJdMqVgwX60CpImbHY8LPzOdWRI74s7uKiXgjYCN79t-A-vR1jSo4jzEIIPuvfxPts28dg$ Regards S?ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear S?ma, I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *ideological* basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Friends! I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference. Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. This is horribly troubling Racist eugenics Please stop Phillip Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear Prof. David, Your message reads... "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. Point 1 If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that ?it is justified?. Please, try to understand me?. ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? OR ?If it is justified OR not justified? is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned ?Level difference?. Point 2 You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis.? I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe? an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. Regards, Harshad Dave On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: I agree Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Mr. Dave: I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XJdMqVgwX60CpImbHY8LPzOdWRI74s7uKiXgjYCN79t-A-vR1jSo4jzEIIPuvfwMaOHduw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XJdMqVgwX60CpImbHY8LPzOdWRI74s7uKiXgjYCN79t-A-vR1jSo4jzEIIPuvfwJXTpvCg$ On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: David? Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. Point 1: When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. Point 2: Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both????.? It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.?] The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. Point 3: As concluded by David, ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts??? I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. Regards, Harshad Dave On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony-- I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XJdMqVgwX60CpImbHY8LPzOdWRI74s7uKiXgjYCN79t-A-vR1jSo4jzEIIPuvfwMaOHduw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XJdMqVgwX60CpImbHY8LPzOdWRI74s7uKiXgjYCN79t-A-vR1jSo4jzEIIPuvfwJXTpvCg$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. Anthony On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. Hi, This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. There are two most probable answers. 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. ?I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.? Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. Regards, Harshad Dave On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Dear Harshad: I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XJdMqVgwX60CpImbHY8LPzOdWRI74s7uKiXgjYCN79t-A-vR1jSo4jzEIIPuvfwMaOHduw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XJdMqVgwX60CpImbHY8LPzOdWRI74s7uKiXgjYCN79t-A-vR1jSo4jzEIIPuvfwJXTpvCg$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear all there, We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. Regards, Harshad Dave This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200624/dfb585ae/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Wed Jun 24 01:31:19 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 18:31:19 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> Message-ID: <8c2a1758-1c47-0cb7-4021-9da5628afec2@marxists.org> Simangele, I don't think you have answered Martin's question. The fact that our schooling system awards ranks and scores to individuals, proves only that belief in the validity of these scores is widespread not that it is valid. You imply this yourself in your reference to "food chain." Can I suggest the following way of looking at the conundrum of development without a metric. Two entire human beings, or two entire ways of life, two entire cultures, ... cannot be compared or "graded" along a scale. People in whatever social position generally know very well how to live successfully in that social position. People are the world's best experts in their own experience. But yes, one person can run faster than another, another can add up numbers faster than another. On any one given single metric comparison can be made and therefore there can be measures and levels. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 5:32 pm, Simangele Mayisela wrote: > > Hi Martin > > I am glad you have asked that question? As I suppose we > very well know that from a socio-cultural perspectives, > the Vygotsky?s law of mental development ? the two > interlaced ?lines of development, posits that humans have > a genetical predisposition for development, the > development of the mental skills is in relation to their > exposure the social practices ?(some of which are imposed > by oppressive systems and the adaptation for survival > creating culture) ? in which case social practices can be > viewed as a ?norm? for judging the development of > cognitive skills. This is where the argument on social > inequities comes in, whether those subjected to historical > privilege, develop cognitive tools that are appropriated > to establish ?levels of mental functioning? of subjects of > inequities and oppression, while holding the ?ideologies? > that I suppose Alfredo and some of the contributors to > this site may have referred to earlier on, that are > concerning for humanity. ??But I must say the argument of > ?levels of mental functioning? should not be viewed > outside of the old agenda of the development of economies, > since these have an influence on ?scientific basis? of > understanding of human development as mental tools ?(human > capital) for the purpose of developing and sustaining > economies. Surely we can see these ?levels of mental > functioning? play out in the education system ? more so in > higher education where the class society is sustained, > through inclusion and exclusion in the economic food chain. > > Back to the video I suggested in my previous email, James > Lindsay ?ideology? that is anti-Critical Theory is very > concerning for me, if any of you had an opportunity to > view this interviews, or any of his youtube videos, I > would like to have your views on his developing ideology > and movement. > > I will end here for now Martin, and I may not have > adequately responded to your question. > > Regards, > > Simangele > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > *On Behalf Of *Martin Packer > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 23:49 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Hi Simangele, > > How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I > would say that is something with which psychology has had > some difficulty. > > Martin > > /"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs.?Seligman or?Dr. > Lowie or discuss matters?with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, > I?become at?once?aware that my partner does not understand > anything in the matter, and I end usually?with the?feeling > that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930)/ > > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > > wrote: > > Further, ?I still have more questions, however it does > appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of > the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental > development which are associated to ?skin colour?, > with little consideration of the historical oppression > that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the > third of the global population is what appears to be > of low level of mental functioning. The question is > more about ?what is the quality of the contents of > what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? > with the aim to find evidence for the difference. > > Just to share, lately? have been viewing James Lindsay > argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous > scientific? and ?scholarship? ?vs? popular narratives > that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which > are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that > you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be > warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s > argument on ideologies. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!Sa5mTXTUciZvOSNyR7TPM_BVrUmPaVGQzubjShVgZd3QSYnmJo62JadaqK74yHi6CNR26A$ > > > Regards > > S?ma > > *From:*Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Dear Alfredo > > Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is > crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But > couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? > and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account > for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked > should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the > ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? > as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the > scientist works from, which informs where the person > ?will land ?in terms of the ideas. > > Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see > what you mean ? > > Regards, > > S?ma > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On Behalf > Of *Alfredo Jornet Gil > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Dear S?ma, > > I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? > basis without first explaining what is meant by > ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such > explanation should be relevant to account for > historical relations across cultures/societies, > specially relations of oppression. I understand your > curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important > to be very clear about this issue and not let it > unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or > philosophical research question. Given all that we > know from history and more precisely from political > economy, the important discussion is not about the > scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its > **ideological** basis: what sort of ideological > inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the > context of this thread and of this moment in history? > There can be no question that there are and there were > differences between the socioeconomic formations of > different cultures and that such cultures were local, > not global or international. So, the problem is not > finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why > that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense > to all of you, does it? > > Alfredo > > *From: * > on behalf of > Simangele Mayisela > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Friends! > > I am curious to read more about the scientific basis > of the ?the difference in the level of /the mental > socioeconomic formation/ between the two.? ?Can > colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of > this difference. > > Regards, > > S?ma > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On Behalf > Of *White, Phillip > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > This is horribly troubling > > Racist eugenics > > Please stop > > Phillip > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > > > wrote: > > > Dear Prof. David, > > Your message reads... > > "I?think?racist filth, devoid of any scientific > understanding and without a shred of scientific > basis,?should not be distributed?anywhere. It > certainly does not belong on this list." > > I request you to go through the following points > carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of > my saying. > > Point 1 > > If my views on the subject matter impress anyone > that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I > think they (my views) are grasped with a great > misunderstanding. > > Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the > unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between > black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of > racism in the event is discussed by all as if the > color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if > it is founded on the color of the skin. > > Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is > not the cause of color of the skin but it (the > cause) harbors in the difference in the level of > /the mental socioeconomic formation/ between the two. > > Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no > where I believed that *?it is justified?*. > > Please, try to understand me?. > > ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not > be there? > > OR > > ?If it is justified OR not justified? > > is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say > the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the > color of the skin but it lies in the above > mentioned ?Level difference?. > > Point 2 > > You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc > file that I attached in my previous message. > > If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of > the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? > > ??The views that I presented in the subject > paragraph do not have /scientific understanding/ > and /scientific basis/.? > > I agree with you that while writing my subject > views I have never searched if they have > scientific support as above. I believe? /an > outcome of contemplation/ and /a logical > compliance/ are the supports and justifications of > any /thinker/ to present his views. > > If people (readers) accept the views no research > paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is > asked to present scientific support for his views > I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut > down. I have not claimed the views are /rules/ and > /laws/. If readers do not agree with them, the > views automatically will become null and void. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > > wrote: > > I agree > > /Mary van der Riet (Phd),?Associate Professor/ > > /Discipline of Psychology,?School of Applied > Human Sciences,?College of > Humanities,?University of KwaZulu-Natal,?South > Africa/ > > /email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ??tel: +27 33 260 6163/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on > behalf of David Kellogg > > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Dear Mr. Dave: > > I?think?racist filth, devoid of any scientific > understanding and without a shred of > scientific basis,?should not be > distributed?anywhere. It certainly does not > belong on this list. > > "Who were the black people that Europeans > brought with them? They were living in > primitive habitations in Africa with very > primitive socio economic formation. Their > forefathers have never passed through the ups > and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the > lessons European people learned and sustained > with and ever before that. The development of > brain threads of the black people and > structure of their DNA are in compliance with > the pattern of life their forefathers passed > through in Africa and its status was in line > with the socio economic formation in which > they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped > as slaves by European people and their agents. > Generally we talk about apartheid but it is > complex issue. We never give consideration to > this fact of difference in brain thread net > work and structure of DNA and consequential > difficulties people of both the sides face > while they have to interact with each others." > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A > manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Sa5mTXTUciZvOSNyR7TPM_BVrUmPaVGQzubjShVgZd3QSYnmJo62JadaqK74yHgQWTdAKQ$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. > Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: > Foundations of Pedology/" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Sa5mTXTUciZvOSNyR7TPM_BVrUmPaVGQzubjShVgZd3QSYnmJo62JadaqK74yHghQxKmxg$ > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > > wrote: > > > David? > > Your message addressed to Anthony > impresses me that you have reached a > conclusion in haste and prematurely about > my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due > to weakness/error in the presentation of > my views.? Here I put three points to > express myself. > > *Point 1:* > > When I contemplate on the issue of racism > (discrimination between two sets of people > from different origin), I temporarily > suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on > /philosophy of humanity/ to work on the > issue impartially. I appeal to all friends > to come out from that cocoon if they want > to have a transparent vision on the > subject issue. > > If anyone believes that the anatomy of the > subject issue might be discovered by > mounting one leg on the horse of our > /sentiments and emotions on humanitarian > concepts/ and second leg on the horse of > /facts of/ /the prevailing social > constitution of latest socio economic > formation, /I think he will never succeed > in his task. > > *Point 2:* > > Here below, I attach one doc?file.... > title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I > request you to read the points discussed > there on this subject matter on page 28 as > the article is very long. > > [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not > necessary that there should be two > separate nations or habitations with > different levels of socio economic > formations and both????.? > > It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice > and partiality, but it is mandatory that > they must have all the abilities to secure > their right of enjoyment through their > abilities only.?] > > The fact that is discussed in the above > mentioned text cannot be overlooked with > our /justice and good conscience/. > > *Point 3:* > > As concluded by David, > > ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is > trying to reinterpret events in the USA > using concepts??? > > I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree > that the social constitution in India is > influencedby ?cast culture? but there are > people who might think and analyze issues > pertaining to social science and economics > remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David > Kellogg > wrote: > > Anthony-- > > I think Annalisa knows more about this > than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. > Dave is trying to reinterpret events > in the USA using concepts that are > related to the ancient Hindu system of > caste. Castes are not races (they are > even less tied to pigmentation than > race), and they are certainly not > classes (they are reproduced by > marriage and the family rather than by > relations of production): I suppose > they are something like kinship groups > that are tied for historical as well > as religious reasons to particular > professions. Because they are > emphasized in religion (and more > recently in India's communal politics) > they can certainly be said to be > "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I > don't think that this is what Andy has > in mind when he says that cultural > artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture > into interpersonal interaction and > suspend the distinction between social > theory and psychology! > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in > memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Sa5mTXTUciZvOSNyR7TPM_BVrUmPaVGQzubjShVgZd3QSYnmJo62JadaqK74yHgQWTdAKQ$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: > /L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ > /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Sa5mTXTUciZvOSNyR7TPM_BVrUmPaVGQzubjShVgZd3QSYnmJo62JadaqK74yHghQxKmxg$ > > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM > Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Sorry, I have no idea what you're > talking about here, although my > sense is that it's wildly wrong, > in various ways. I am confused but > hope you have a nice day, regardless. > > Anthony > > > On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad > Dave > wrote: > > > Atten.: Anthony Barra and > David Kellog. > > Hi, > > This is with reference to your > replies to my message. I am > thankful for the same and > regret for the delay in reply. > I used the word ?apartheid? > just in the sense of racism, > complains of blacks/brown that > they are discriminated in > social dealing by whites etc. > David Kellog - Thanks for the > detail source of the word > ?apartheid?, however I request > you to take its meaning in the > same sense as expressed above. > The suggested/recommended > articles are viewed in a > glancing by me; I recall I > have read them (one or more) > on Academia web. You will > agree their subject matter is > different. Anthony Barra ? The > article that was recommended > by you is read by me and it > touches on various realities > in the subject matter of our > topic. > > I just put my views against > the question I asked in my > message dtd. 17 June 2020. > > There are two most probable > answers. > > 1.The turned out black > European people will be the > victim of racism > (discrimination) by the turned > out white people from African > origin. > > 2.The situation remains the > same and the world will see > protests and fights on an > issue or against a complaining > that the black European people > discriminate white people of > African origin in the USA. > > I leave it to the readers to > give their logical > consideration to the one out > of the above two, but my > opinion says the second answer > will hold good, but one should > not forget it is just true on > hypothetical presumption. > > It is a mistake to believe > that /the attitude of > discrimination/ and /sickness > of racism /harbor in the color > of the skin. In fact above > altitude/sickness is founded > on the difference of */mental > socio economic formation > status/* of two men. There is > a basic difference between the > two statuses of /mental socio > economic formation /of black > people of African origin and > that of white people of > European origin. I believe > that a mass of people > constituting a society with > advanced socio economic > formation has fair chances to > exploit the mass of people > constituting a society with > backward socio economic > formation. It is equally true > for two classes of peoples at > different /mental socio > economic formation status/ > also. But, here (in the USA) > both the classes of people are > living in the same society > with one /constitution/ and > uniform /rule of laws/. It is > absurd to believe that the > present socio economic > formation of the society of > the USA (21^st century) has > prevailed and occupied equally > and uniformly by each and > every citizen of the USA. One > might find various people in > the present society of the USA > with different levels of > /mental socio economic > formation status/. It is > really a complicated situation > when the society is throughout > with the latest socio economic > formation and members of the > society are with varying > levels of /mental socio > economic formation status/ in > the same society. Let me > present part of the message of > Abraham Lincoln before I > finish this message. > > Fourth Debate: Charleston, > Illinois ? September 18, 1858. > > ?/I will say then that I am > not, nor ever have been, in > favor of bringing about in any > way the social and political > equality of the white and > black races, [applause]-that I > am not nor ever have been in > favor of making voters or > jurors of negroes, nor of > qualifying them to hold > office, nor to intermarry with > white people; and I will say > in addition to this that there > is a physical difference > between the white and black > races which I believe will > forever forbid the two races > living together on terms of > social and political equality. > And inasmuch as they cannot so > live, while they do remain > together there must be the > position of superior and > inferior, and I as much as any > other man am in favor of > having the superior position > assigned to the white race. I > say upon this occasion I do > not perceive that because the > white man is to have the > superior position the negro > should be denied everything./? > > Here it is between the lines > that difference in the /mental > socio economic formation > status/could be compensated to > some extent, but for equality > people with backward /mental > socio economic formation > status/ will have to work hard > to develop the same. > > I clarify, neither I am in > favor of nor against the > victims of the issue of > discrimination and racism as > far as my contemplation on the > subject matter is to be > carried out. But, I just want > to explain where the real > cause harbors. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 > PM David Kellogg > > > wrote: > > Dear Harshad: > > I am still a little > stunned by the last post > you wrote, with all the > references to predatory > shopkeepers. It sounded > like the stuff of a > pogrom. As we discussed in > the "My Hometown > Minneapolis" thread, the > threats to shopkeepers in > Minneapolis often targeted > South Asians, and had > nothing to do with the > police (except that the > police may have been > involved and certainly > profitted from the looting > politically). > > "Apartheid" is a term > invented by the South > African sociologist > Verwoerd, who studied with > the Gestalists. Some > Gestaltists, like Narziss > Ach and Felix Krueger, > became Nazis; Verwoerd > himself became, as you > probably know, prime > minister of South Africa > and brought in the system > of apartheid which Gandhi > struggled against during > his early years. The term > used in my hometown > Minneapolis is not > "apartheid" but > segregation: it is > euphemistically referred > to as?"redlining" (by > insurance companies) and > "racial covenants" but not > as "apartheid". > > Segregation and Jim Crow > in Minneapolis is not > based on pigmentation. > Many "white" people are > darker than blacks, and > many black people are > lighter than whites, > because of the centuries > of rape and the > enthusiasm?of slave owners > for the practice of > selling their own > children. The last time I > visited the "housing > project"near where I grew > up it was full of Hmong > from Southeast Asia. > Segregation in Minneapolis > is above all a matter of > class. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya > Hasan, in memoriam: A > manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Sa5mTXTUciZvOSNyR7TPM_BVrUmPaVGQzubjShVgZd3QSYnmJo62JadaqK74yHgQWTdAKQ$ > > > New Translation with > Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. > Vygotsky's Pedological > Works/ /Volume One: > Foundations of Pedology/" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Sa5mTXTUciZvOSNyR7TPM_BVrUmPaVGQzubjShVgZd3QSYnmJo62JadaqK74yHghQxKmxg$ > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at > 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > > > wrote: > > Dear all there, > > We all are aware of > the event of the death > of George Floyd in the > USA under police > custody. There are > flows of opinions, > comments and views on > the event with > different aspects all > over the world. There > are debates and > discussions on the > event on innumerable > web sites, we find > them in newspapers and > among the talks of > people at private and > public places. We just > do not talk about > riots and other events > happened under agony > and out burst of anger > on the unfortunate > death of Floyd, > however, voice against > apartheid was the > major cry behind them. > > Though there are > various vital aspects > of the event, > */apartheid/* remained > prime of them. > > I simply ask one > question to my friends > who read this post. > > Let us > hypothetically?presume, > on one day fine > morning, when people > of the USA awake, they > find that skin color > of all the blacks is > changed to perfectly > white like european > people and the skin > color of all the > europeans changed to > black like negro. > > I ask my friends, > "What will be the > status of > */apartheid/* in this > situation?" > > NB: I write one > article on the ill > fated event and its > aspects. Your views on > the above question > will help me to write > my views with more > clarity in the article. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. > It is confidential. If you have received this > communication in error, please notify us immediately > and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission > of the University. Only authorised signatories are > competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the > University and recipients are thus advised that the > content of this message may not be legally binding on > the University and may contain the personal views and > opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the > views and opinions of The University of the > Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between > the University and outsiders are subject to South > African Law unless the University agrees in writing to > the contrary. > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. > It is confidential. If you have received this > communication in error, please notify us immediately > and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission > of the University. Only authorised signatories are > competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the > University and recipients are thus advised that the > content of this message may not be legally binding on > the University and may contain the personal views and > opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the > views and opinions of The University of the > Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between > the University and outsiders are subject to South > African Law unless the University agrees in writing to > the contrary. > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It > is confidential. If you have received this communication > in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the > original message. You may not copy or disseminate this > communication without the permission of the University. > Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into > agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are > thus advised that the content of this message may not be > legally binding on the University and may contain the > personal views and opinions of the author, which are not > necessarily the views and opinions of The University of > the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between > the University and outsiders are subject to South African > Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200624/b7b60004/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jun 24 15:01:42 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 22:01:42 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: <8c2a1758-1c47-0cb7-4021-9da5628afec2@marxists.org> References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> , <8c2a1758-1c47-0cb7-4021-9da5628afec2@marxists.org> Message-ID: Hello all, I have a hypothetical question that requires any suspension of reactivity until I get to the end of the question. It isn't intended to bait anyone but to explore the question about adaptation, I suppose. Let's say there are five cultures A, B, C, D, and E, which correspond to different geographical locations on the planet. Let's say that of those cultures A, and E are the most affluent and developed into this wealth over ten generations. E is more capitalist, A is more socialist. Let's say B is a culture that has been colonized by E and still is, and is consequently poor in comparison the A and E. B suffers the most poverty. Let's say C is also a culture that had been colonized by A and B at different times in the past but is now independent and though still poor has more wealth than B, but far less than A & E. D is a culture that remains much the same for ten generations, and while it has never been colonized, it doesn't have the wealth nor technological advancement of any of the other cultures, but doesn't suffer from its poverty, largely because the people of that culture rely upon existing natural resources as they have 20 generations. Some changes were made to be more efficient agriculturally, but not that much has changed technologically. ----- What can we say about these cultures in terms of environment and genetic causes? I don't intend to get into a nurture vs nature discussion, but something more nuanced. I could see that some people might come to the following conclusions about these different cultures. One might say about E that it is predisposed to developing economically on the back of another culture, namely B and historically C, creating more wealth in the culture than all the other except A. One might say that B being one of the poorest along with D, that their poverty comes from a raiding of resources by E that is still happening to this day. C now being independent from A and E have shown resiliency and their economic development is improving over time and is better each generation. Concerning culture D, could it be seen as a control? or is it an outlier? The measurements for wealth cannot be compared to the others. The poverty doesn't seem to interfere with quality of life. It's just a more simple technological existence. A seems to be a culture that while it had been colonial in its past, which created some wealth for itself at the time, self-determination came to decide that it wanted to have a more egalitarian culture that did not exploit anyone it is population, nor the population in another culture. Given what we know about each culture and how it expresses itself, and how we might measure its traits of economic development, how would we ever be able to determine genetic factors and how they might contribute to any instances of development or lack thereof? It seems impossible to ever say anything about the populations being "fit" or "unfit" based upon genetic factors, whether it might be factors such as skin color, eye size, predisposition for high or low reproduction, or height, or even blood type. How would it even be possible to go about measuring for it scientifically? Then how would any one measure adaptability? One might say for D there has been no need to adapt, they are more in harmony with its environment. C might be considered the most adaptable, because it shows resilience despite set backs. It seems impossible to parse scientifically. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2020 2:31 AM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. [EXTERNAL] Simangele, I don't think you have answered Martin's question. The fact that our schooling system awards ranks and scores to individuals, proves only that belief in the validity of these scores is widespread not that it is valid. You imply this yourself in your reference to "food chain." Can I suggest the following way of looking at the conundrum of development without a metric. Two entire human beings, or two entire ways of life, two entire cultures, ... cannot be compared or "graded" along a scale. People in whatever social position generally know very well how to live successfully in that social position. People are the world's best experts in their own experience. But yes, one person can run faster than another, another can add up numbers faster than another. On any one given single metric comparison can be made and therefore there can be measures and levels. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 5:32 pm, Simangele Mayisela wrote: Hi Martin I am glad you have asked that question? As I suppose we very well know that from a socio-cultural perspectives, the Vygotsky?s law of mental development ? the two interlaced lines of development, posits that humans have a genetical predisposition for development, the development of the mental skills is in relation to their exposure the social practices (some of which are imposed by oppressive systems and the adaptation for survival creating culture) ? in which case social practices can be viewed as a ?norm? for judging the development of cognitive skills. This is where the argument on social inequities comes in, whether those subjected to historical privilege, develop cognitive tools that are appropriated to establish ?levels of mental functioning? of subjects of inequities and oppression, while holding the ?ideologies? that I suppose Alfredo and some of the contributors to this site may have referred to earlier on, that are concerning for humanity. But I must say the argument of ?levels of mental functioning? should not be viewed outside of the old agenda of the development of economies, since these have an influence on ?scientific basis? of understanding of human development as mental tools (human capital) for the purpose of developing and sustaining economies. Surely we can see these ?levels of mental functioning? play out in the education system ? more so in higher education where the class society is sustained, through inclusion and exclusion in the economic food chain. Back to the video I suggested in my previous email, James Lindsay ?ideology? that is anti-Critical Theory is very concerning for me, if any of you had an opportunity to view this interviews, or any of his youtube videos, I would like to have your views on his developing ideology and movement. I will end here for now Martin, and I may not have adequately responded to your question. Regards, Simangele From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Martin Packer Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 23:49 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!TGC0pQG4Qm0H8vYoLBs2TvYOWZ6Cn9xefuJOGuSeT1GJTJLiexqb-WcCeKkwJhLCRTWc5A$ Regards S?ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear S?ma, I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *ideological* basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Friends! I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference. Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. This is horribly troubling Racist eugenics Please stop Phillip Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear Prof. David, Your message reads... "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. Point 1 If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that ?it is justified?. Please, try to understand me?. ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? OR ?If it is justified OR not justified? is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned ?Level difference?. Point 2 You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis.? I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe? an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. Regards, Harshad Dave On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: I agree Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Mr. Dave: I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TGC0pQG4Qm0H8vYoLBs2TvYOWZ6Cn9xefuJOGuSeT1GJTJLiexqb-WcCeKkwJhKp239dpw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TGC0pQG4Qm0H8vYoLBs2TvYOWZ6Cn9xefuJOGuSeT1GJTJLiexqb-WcCeKkwJhKMlawYQg$ On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: David? Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. Point 1: When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. Point 2: Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both????.? It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.?] The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. Point 3: As concluded by David, ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts??? I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. Regards, Harshad Dave On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony-- I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TGC0pQG4Qm0H8vYoLBs2TvYOWZ6Cn9xefuJOGuSeT1GJTJLiexqb-WcCeKkwJhKp239dpw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TGC0pQG4Qm0H8vYoLBs2TvYOWZ6Cn9xefuJOGuSeT1GJTJLiexqb-WcCeKkwJhKMlawYQg$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. Anthony On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. Hi, This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. There are two most probable answers. 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. ?I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.? Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. Regards, Harshad Dave On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Dear Harshad: I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TGC0pQG4Qm0H8vYoLBs2TvYOWZ6Cn9xefuJOGuSeT1GJTJLiexqb-WcCeKkwJhKp239dpw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TGC0pQG4Qm0H8vYoLBs2TvYOWZ6Cn9xefuJOGuSeT1GJTJLiexqb-WcCeKkwJhKMlawYQg$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear all there, We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. Regards, Harshad Dave This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200624/423d625d/attachment.html From simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za Thu Jun 25 03:49:45 2020 From: simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za (Simangele Mayisela) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 10:49:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: Lindasy and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the review processes of scientific journals which we have to concerned about. The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientiific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicities. The likes of Lindsay and Weisten bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weisten ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific tools?). My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this youtube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. It seems to me Paulo Friere ?Education for the Oppressed? association to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and dubbed as ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!XfwJZxUYxbczVXbLtP8aTt7Xtv648qfbG7zQMZCfJKShacQDrfLsypmNmZztMGFfQeK2jw$ Regards S?ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear S?ma, I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *ideological* basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Friends! I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference. Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. This is horribly troubling Racist eugenics Please stop Phillip Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear Prof. David, Your message reads... "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. Point 1 If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that ?it is justified?. Please, try to understand me?. ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? OR ?If it is justified OR not justified? is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned ?Level difference?. Point 2 You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis.? I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe? an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. Regards, Harshad Dave On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: I agree Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Mr. Dave: I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XfwJZxUYxbczVXbLtP8aTt7Xtv648qfbG7zQMZCfJKShacQDrfLsypmNmZztMGEcvLJAAw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XfwJZxUYxbczVXbLtP8aTt7Xtv648qfbG7zQMZCfJKShacQDrfLsypmNmZztMGFXmwanMg$ On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: David? Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. Point 1: When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. Point 2: Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both????.? It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.?] The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. Point 3: As concluded by David, ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts??? I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. Regards, Harshad Dave On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony-- I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XfwJZxUYxbczVXbLtP8aTt7Xtv648qfbG7zQMZCfJKShacQDrfLsypmNmZztMGEcvLJAAw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XfwJZxUYxbczVXbLtP8aTt7Xtv648qfbG7zQMZCfJKShacQDrfLsypmNmZztMGFXmwanMg$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. Anthony On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. Hi, This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. There are two most probable answers. 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. ?I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.? Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. Regards, Harshad Dave On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Dear Harshad: I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XfwJZxUYxbczVXbLtP8aTt7Xtv648qfbG7zQMZCfJKShacQDrfLsypmNmZztMGEcvLJAAw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XfwJZxUYxbczVXbLtP8aTt7Xtv648qfbG7zQMZCfJKShacQDrfLsypmNmZztMGFXmwanMg$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear all there, We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. Regards, Harshad Dave This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200625/e41cd3f9/attachment.html From simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za Thu Jun 25 05:04:48 2020 From: simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za (Simangele Mayisela) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 12:04:48 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: Hi Andy and Alfredo Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which we have to be concerned about. The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific tools?). My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. Regards, Simangele simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!VKi44e3yQhw3WV16wCe1hs0zIc8jl3tP8B__2rEREmKPAjBG_b8nP1fwgKQ4XC2_hAzo4Q$ Regards S?ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear S?ma, I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *ideological* basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Friends! I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference. Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. This is horribly troubling Racist eugenics Please stop Phillip Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear Prof. David, Your message reads... "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. Point 1 If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that ?it is justified?. Please, try to understand me?. ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? OR ?If it is justified OR not justified? is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned ?Level difference?. Point 2 You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis.? I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe? an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. Regards, Harshad Dave On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: I agree Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Mr. Dave: I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VKi44e3yQhw3WV16wCe1hs0zIc8jl3tP8B__2rEREmKPAjBG_b8nP1fwgKQ4XC3hQLovUA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VKi44e3yQhw3WV16wCe1hs0zIc8jl3tP8B__2rEREmKPAjBG_b8nP1fwgKQ4XC3GuLWNHw$ On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: David? Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. Point 1: When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. Point 2: Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both????.? It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.?] The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. Point 3: As concluded by David, ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts??? I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. Regards, Harshad Dave On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony-- I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VKi44e3yQhw3WV16wCe1hs0zIc8jl3tP8B__2rEREmKPAjBG_b8nP1fwgKQ4XC3hQLovUA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VKi44e3yQhw3WV16wCe1hs0zIc8jl3tP8B__2rEREmKPAjBG_b8nP1fwgKQ4XC3GuLWNHw$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. Anthony On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. Hi, This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. There are two most probable answers. 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. ?I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.? Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. Regards, Harshad Dave On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Dear Harshad: I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VKi44e3yQhw3WV16wCe1hs0zIc8jl3tP8B__2rEREmKPAjBG_b8nP1fwgKQ4XC3hQLovUA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VKi44e3yQhw3WV16wCe1hs0zIc8jl3tP8B__2rEREmKPAjBG_b8nP1fwgKQ4XC3GuLWNHw$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear all there, We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. Regards, Harshad Dave This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200625/d044a3fa/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Thu Jun 25 06:10:40 2020 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:40:40 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: Hi, This refers to the message of Andy, dtd. June 24, 2020, 2:04 PM. Let us keep *timeline of mankind development* as a base of reference in our mind while presenting my views here below. Point 1 Every creature in wild life has a set of abilities received under legacy as per natural law; it makes its living using the same abilities on events and occasions. You will agree that a strong man (even an ancient man) with the same set of natural abilities with him will not be able to kill a healthy tiger in a direct physical encounter, because the abilities that are warranted in the physical encounter are apparently at a different potential level where the tiger has a big lead. If the event of encounter was between the same tiger and a healthy rhinoceros, the tiger would have surely kept a safe distance from the rhinoceros avoiding the encounter based on its instinctive knowledge. Now, a physically far weak man with a gun (and practice to operate it) will kill the same tiger within no time. It is only because the weak man has a powerful supplement (the gun and its operating knowledge/practice) to his natural abilities. Point 2 Now, with reference to your words ?Two entire human beings, or two entire ways of life, two entire cultures, cannot be compared or "graded" along a scale.? I agree there is no measuring device or unit to compare them like mathematical or scientific procedure. However, with justice and good conscience, we might logically compare them in different traits of social potential. When Columbus reached to Caribbean island and met Tino and other natives there, just tentatively imagine, what was the level of above mentioned *supplements to natural abilities* with European people standing behind Columbus and that of natives of America. I agree there is no accurate metric, but there is surely a meaningful empirical *sense* of it. History is the witness?. ?*The sense* worked without the metric then, after Columbus returned and the great migration commenced?. It is just an example of a gun only. When a socio economic formation of a society changes, there are innumerable typical abilities that are achieved by the occupants of the society and they supplement the natural abilities of man. Point 3 I believe, if *a thinker* wants to make the study of social issues transparent and nearest to its realistic nature, he/she should not ride on two horses?. *humanitarian sentiments/feelings* and *facts of natural laws* simultaneously. Here I shall talk standing on the platform of *facts of natural laws* only. It is my view that the socio economic formation of any human society might represent the integrated overall potential level of the supplements to the natural abilities of people constituting the society (I shall address it ?*the integrated overall potential level*?). When the people of two societies with a large difference in their* integrated overall potential levels* (i. e. having different socio economic formations on the timeline) find long term reliable approach and excess for physical contact and occasions to interact, the society at higher* integrated overall potential level* (i. e. advance socio economic formation on timeline) has fair opportunities to exploit the rest one. This is equally true for the people residing under one roof of a nation. Here, in India, there is a popular saying by wise old people? ?A city breaks the villages?. Why did they get this empirical impression during their lifespan? It is only because; the people of the city live in advance socio economic formation, but the people of village legs behind in it. Every exchange between village and city?. When the city purchases products/services of village and village purchases products/services of city, villages are exploited like anything. It is equally true when two men are in dealing/interaction and their mindset level of socio economic formation are at different levels, the person with a mental level in compliance with backward (legging behind on timeline) socio economic formation is prone to be exploited by the other one, but both are in the same society. Point 4 That is the point I want to surface out. In my views, I get an impression that the constitutional structure of our society is like?., There are some people with appreciable compliance with the present 20th ? 21 st century socio economic formation. There are people with some departure in the above compliance. There are people with a large void in the compliance. Now above all the three masses of people are living under one roof of a nation and in the same society but their *mental level of socio economic formation* are at different levels. Do you think that this difference will not generate any stress and strain on the functioning of the social system? Regards, Harshad Dave. On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 5:36 PM Simangele Mayisela < simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote: > Hi Andy and Alfredo > > > > Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I > referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between > the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in > relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James > Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the > video) is this: > > > > Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with > its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, > Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement > which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and > ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study > ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how > unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are > situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the > system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also > tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces > mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which > we have to be concerned about. > > > > The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am > not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, > I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of > ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an > idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we > aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives > associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with > ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein > bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the > name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological > connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in > specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental > functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected > ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like > a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( > po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ > ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan > Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, > unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying > adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific > tools?). > > > > My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources > that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I > referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? > knowledge?. > > > > It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for > the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook > for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we > take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for > Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical > Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is > generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge > accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to > advance the survival of humanity. > > > > Regards, > > Simangele > > > > > > > > > > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or > "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive > movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a > sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at > stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. > There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called > philanthropy and charity. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss > what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video > critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance > studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this > conversation! > > > > In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so > well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions > Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social > justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into > self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with > Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, > as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether > Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory > scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an > example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * > on behalf of Martin Packer > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Hi Simangele, > > > > How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is > something with which psychology has had some difficulty. > > > > Martin > > > > *"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss > matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my > partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with > the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930)* > > > > > > > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela < > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote: > > > > Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that > at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the > ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with > little consideration of the historical oppression that created the > ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what > appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more > about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black > skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. > > > > Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is > ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular > narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking > over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are > Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument > on ideologies. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!X4pfrqjb1MoyRqO70cFkjeJFrscmByGSyawilKOzrNnBEjv1XsgsLjC00-inpWMz10K0sQ$ > > > > > Regards > > S?ma > > > > > > > > *From:* Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear Alfredo > > > > Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering > the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies > as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for > ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the > ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to > the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the > scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms > of the ideas. > > > > Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? > > Regards, > > S?ma > > > > > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Alfredo Jornet Gil > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear S?ma, > > > > I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first > explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such > explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across > cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your > curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear > about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate > scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from > history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion > is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its * > *ideological** basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by > posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in > history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences > between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such > cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not > finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being > raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Friends! > > > > I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the > difference in the level of *the mental socioeconomic formation* between > the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this > difference. > > > > Regards, > > S?ma > > > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *White, Phillip > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > This is horribly troubling > > Racist eugenics > > Please stop > > > > Phillip > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave wrote: > > > Dear Prof. David, > > > > Your message reads... > > "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without > a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It > certainly does not belong on this list." > > > > I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you > might catch the sound of my saying. > > > > Point 1 > > If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution > of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great > misunderstanding. > > > > Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd > or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism > in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible > for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. > > Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of > the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of *the > mental socioeconomic formation* between the two. > > Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that *?it > is justified?*. > > Please, try to understand me?. > > ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? > > OR > > ?If it is justified OR not justified? > > is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said > ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above > mentioned ?Level difference?. > > > > Point 2 > > You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in > my previous message. > > If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your > message, I think you pointed out? > > ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have *scientific > understanding* and *scientific basis*.? > > I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched > if they have scientific support as above. I believe? *an outcome of > contemplation* and *a logical compliance* are the supports and > justifications of any *thinker* to present his views. > > If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to > support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his > views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not > claimed the views are *rules* and *laws*. If readers do not agree with > them, the views automatically will become null and void. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: > > I agree > > > > > > > > *Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor* > > *Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of > Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa* > > *email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za > tel: +27 33 260 6163* > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear Mr. Dave: > > > > I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a > shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly > does not belong on this list. > > > > "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were > living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio > economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and > downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned > and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads > of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the > pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status > was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they > were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. > Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give > consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and > structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides > face while they have to interact with each others." > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!X4pfrqjb1MoyRqO70cFkjeJFrscmByGSyawilKOzrNnBEjv1XsgsLjC00-inpWN0vmUHTQ$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!X4pfrqjb1MoyRqO70cFkjeJFrscmByGSyawilKOzrNnBEjv1XsgsLjC00-inpWNCZTAAwA$ > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave wrote: > > > David? > > Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a > conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it > might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put > three points to express myself. > > *Point 1:* > > When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets > of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my > feelings/sentiments founded on *philosophy of humanity* to work on the > issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if > they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. > > If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be > discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our *sentiments and > emotions on humanitarian concepts* and second leg on the horse of *facts > of* *the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic > formation, *I think he will never succeed in his task. > > *Point 2:* > > Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? > I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on > page 28 as the article is very long. > > [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be > two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic > formations and both????.? > > It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is > mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of > enjoyment through their abilities only.?] > > The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be > overlooked with our *justice and good conscience*. > > *Point 3:* > > As concluded by David, > > ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in > the USA using concepts??? > > I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in > India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might > think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics > remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Anthony-- > > > > I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that > Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are > related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they > are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not > classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by > relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups > that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular > professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in > India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" > in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when > he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into > interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory > and psychology! > > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!X4pfrqjb1MoyRqO70cFkjeJFrscmByGSyawilKOzrNnBEjv1XsgsLjC00-inpWN0vmUHTQ$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!X4pfrqjb1MoyRqO70cFkjeJFrscmByGSyawilKOzrNnBEjv1XsgsLjC00-inpWNCZTAAwA$ > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is > that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a > nice day, regardless. > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave wrote: > > > > > Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. > > Hi, > > This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for > the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? > just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are > discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for > the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take > its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended > articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or > more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. > Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and > it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. > > I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 > June 2020. > > There are two most probable answers. > > 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism > (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. > > 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests > and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European > people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. > > I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one > out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, > but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. > > It is a mistake to believe that *the attitude of discrimination* and *sickness > of racism *harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above > altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of *mental socio economic > formation status* of two men. There is a basic difference between the two > statuses of *mental socio economic formation *of black people of African > origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass > of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has > fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with > backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of > peoples at different *mental socio economic formation status* also. But, > here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society > with one *constitution* and uniform *rule of laws*. It is absurd to > believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA > (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each > and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present > society of the USA with different levels of *mental socio economic > formation status*. It is really a complicated situation when the society > is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the > society are with varying levels of *mental socio economic formation > status* in the same society. Let me present part of the message of > Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. > > Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. > > ?*I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing > about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black > races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making > voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to > intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there > is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe > will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and > political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do > remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I > as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position > assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that > because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be > denied everything.*? > > > > Here it is between the lines that difference in the *mental socio > economic formation status* could be compensated to some extent, but for > equality people with backward *mental socio economic formation status* > will have to work hard to develop the same. > > I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue > of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject > matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real > cause harbors. > > > > Regards, > > > > Harshad Dave > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Dear Harshad: > > > > I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the > references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. > As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to > shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to > do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and > certainly profitted from the looting politically). > > > > "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, > who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and > Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, > prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which > Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my > hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is > euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and > "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". > > > > Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many > "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter > than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave > owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I > visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from > Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!X4pfrqjb1MoyRqO70cFkjeJFrscmByGSyawilKOzrNnBEjv1XsgsLjC00-inpWN0vmUHTQ$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!X4pfrqjb1MoyRqO70cFkjeJFrscmByGSyawilKOzrNnBEjv1XsgsLjC00-inpWNCZTAAwA$ > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave wrote: > > > > Dear all there, > > > > We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA > under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on > the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and > discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in > newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We > just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out > burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against > apartheid was the major cry behind them. > > Though there are various vital aspects of the event, *apartheid* remained > prime of them. > > I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. > > > > Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the > USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to > perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the > europeans changed to black like negro. > > I ask my friends, "What will be the status of *apartheid* in this > situation?" > > > > NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views > on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in > the article. > > > > Regards, > > > > Harshad Dave > > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify us > immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. > Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on > behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content > of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may > contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not > necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, > Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are > subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the > contrary. > > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify us > immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. > Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on > behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content > of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may > contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not > necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, > Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are > subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the > contrary. > > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify us > immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. > Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on > behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content > of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may > contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not > necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, > Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are > subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the > contrary. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200625/d189f29e/attachment-0001.html From mpacker@cantab.net Thu Jun 25 06:48:10 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 08:48:10 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: <1A415DE4-F2D3-4582-A53A-1064273BE351@cantab.net> Harshad Dave, Your ?points" seem to assume that a person with a gun has a "higher mental level.? Do you really believe? I certainly do not. Martin > On Jun 25, 2020, at 8:10 AM, Harshad Dave wrote: > > > Hi, > > This refers to the message of Andy, dtd. June 24, 2020, 2:04 PM. > > Let us keep timeline of mankind development as a base of reference in our mind while presenting my views here below. > > Point 1 > > Every creature in wild life has a set of abilities received under legacy as per natural law; it makes its living using the same abilities on events and occasions. You will agree that a strong man (even an ancient man) with the same set of natural abilities with him will not be able to kill a healthy tiger in a direct physical encounter, because the abilities that are warranted in the physical encounter are apparently at a different potential level where the tiger has a big lead. If the event of encounter was between the same tiger and a healthy rhinoceros, the tiger would have surely kept a safe distance from the rhinoceros avoiding the encounter based on its instinctive knowledge. Now, a physically far weak man with a gun (and practice to operate it) will kill the same tiger within no time. It is only because the weak man has a powerful supplement (the gun and its operating knowledge/practice) to his natural abilities. > > Point 2 > > Now, with reference to your words ?Two entire human beings, or two entire ways of life, two entire cultures, cannot be compared or "graded" along a scale.? > > I agree there is no measuring device or unit to compare them like mathematical or scientific procedure. However, with justice and good conscience, we might logically compare them in different traits of social potential. > > When Columbus reached to Caribbean island and met Tino and other natives there, just tentatively imagine, what was the level of above mentioned supplements to natural abilities with European people standing behind Columbus and that of natives of America. I agree there is no accurate metric, but there is surely a meaningful empirical sense of it. History is the witness?. ?The sense worked without the metric then, after Columbus returned and the great migration commenced?. It is just an example of a gun only. When a socio economic formation of a society changes, there are innumerable typical abilities that are achieved by the occupants of the society and they supplement the natural abilities of man. > > Point 3 > > I believe, if a thinker wants to make the study of social issues transparent and nearest to its realistic nature, he/she should not ride on two horses?. humanitarian sentiments/feelings and facts of natural laws simultaneously. Here I shall talk standing on the platform of facts of natural laws only. > > It is my view that the socio economic formation of any human society might represent the integrated overall potential level of the supplements to the natural abilities of people constituting the society (I shall address it ?the integrated overall potential level?). When the people of two societies with a large difference in their integrated overall potential levels (i. e. having different socio economic formations on the timeline) find long term reliable approach and excess for physical contact and occasions to interact, the society at higher integrated overall potential level (i. e. advance socio economic formation on timeline) has fair opportunities to exploit the rest one. > > This is equally true for the people residing under one roof of a nation. Here, in India, there is a popular saying by wise old people? ?A city breaks the villages?. Why did they get this empirical impression during their lifespan? It is only because; the people of the city live in advance socio economic formation, but the people of village legs behind in it. Every exchange between village and city?. When the city purchases products/services of village and village purchases products/services of city, villages are exploited like anything. > > It is equally true when two men are in dealing/interaction and their mindset level of socio economic formation are at different levels, the person with a mental level in compliance with backward (legging behind on timeline) socio economic formation is prone to be exploited by the other one, but both are in the same society. > > Point 4 > > That is the point I want to surface out. In my views, I get an impression that the constitutional structure of our society is like?., > > There are some people with appreciable compliance with the present 20th ? 21st century socio economic formation. > > There are people with some departure in the above compliance. > > There are people with a large void in the compliance. > > Now above all the three masses of people are living under one roof of a nation and in the same society but their mental level of socio economic formation are at different levels. > > Do you think that this difference will not generate any stress and strain on the functioning of the social system? > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave. > > > On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 5:36 PM Simangele Mayisela > wrote: > Hi Andy and Alfredo > > > > Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: > > > > Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which we have to be concerned about. > > > > The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific tools?). > > > > My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. > > > > It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. > > > > Regards, > > Simangele > > > > > > > > > > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. > > Andy > > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! > > > > In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? > > > > Alfredo > > From: on behalf of Martin Packer > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Hi Simangele, > > > > How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. > > > > Martin > > > > "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: > > > > Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. > > > > Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!TISAyc4x5fj9K-SgakpYYxpFiZnI7xltF1AhVJTMznonWgC-FprIrMr-a5KqM-Sl0FCLWw$ > > > Regards > > S?ma > > > > > > > > From: Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear Alfredo > > > > Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. > > > > Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? > > Regards, > > S?ma > > > > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear S?ma, > > > > I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *ideological* basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? > > > > Alfredo > > From: > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Friends! > > > > I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference. > > > > Regards, > > S?ma > > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of White, Phillip > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > This is horribly troubling > > Racist eugenics > > Please stop > > > > Phillip > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: > > > > Dear Prof. David, > > > > Your message reads... > > "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." > > > > I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. > > > > Point 1 > > If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. > > > > Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. > > Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. > > Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that ?it is justified?. > > Please, try to understand me?. > > ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? > > OR > > ?If it is justified OR not justified? > > is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned ?Level difference?. > > > > Point 2 > > You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. > > If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? > > ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis.? > > I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe? an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. > > If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: > > I agree > > > > > > > > Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor > > Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa > > email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear Mr. Dave: > > > > I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. > > > > "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TISAyc4x5fj9K-SgakpYYxpFiZnI7xltF1AhVJTMznonWgC-FprIrMr-a5KqM-TY5E0FrQ$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TISAyc4x5fj9K-SgakpYYxpFiZnI7xltF1AhVJTMznonWgC-FprIrMr-a5KqM-T0f7KuLw$ > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: > > > > David? > > Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. > > Point 1: > > When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. > > If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. > > Point 2: > > Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. > > [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both????.? > > It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.?] > > The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. > > Point 3: > > As concluded by David, > > ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts??? > > I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Anthony-- > > > > I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! > > > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TISAyc4x5fj9K-SgakpYYxpFiZnI7xltF1AhVJTMznonWgC-FprIrMr-a5KqM-TY5E0FrQ$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TISAyc4x5fj9K-SgakpYYxpFiZnI7xltF1AhVJTMznonWgC-FprIrMr-a5KqM-T0f7KuLw$ > > > > > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: > > > > > > Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. > > Hi, > > This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. > > I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. > > There are two most probable answers. > > 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. > > 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. > > I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. > > It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. > > Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. > > ?I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.? > > > > Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. > > I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. > > > > Regards, > > > > Harshad Dave > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Dear Harshad: > > > > I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). > > > > "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". > > > > Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TISAyc4x5fj9K-SgakpYYxpFiZnI7xltF1AhVJTMznonWgC-FprIrMr-a5KqM-TY5E0FrQ$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TISAyc4x5fj9K-SgakpYYxpFiZnI7xltF1AhVJTMznonWgC-FprIrMr-a5KqM-T0f7KuLw$ > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: > > > > Dear all there, > > > > We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. > > Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. > > I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. > > > > Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. > > I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" > > > > NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. > > > > Regards, > > > > Harshad Dave > > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. > > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. > > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200625/a4d17a4e/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jun 25 13:38:08 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 20:38:08 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: <1A415DE4-F2D3-4582-A53A-1064273BE351@cantab.net> References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> , <1A415DE4-F2D3-4582-A53A-1064273BE351@cantab.net> Message-ID: Martin, Harshad, and venerable others, Martin raises a very interesting point. If we look at the person + gun, it is almost as person + rock or person + club. Take the person away and you have an inanimate object, take the object away and you have just a person, having a particular body that has evolved in a particular way (over millions of years). What to make of the person who uses a gun, or even uses a cellphone? That person with gun, or cellphone (etc) has a certain facility by extension of the tool that she uses, which allows the person to think a certain way about the world around her. For example, a woman walking down a dark street alone will have a different worldview in that moment if she has a gun in her purse than if she did not. Same if she were in a village, or on a savannah or jungle. (I am not promoting the possession of guns, by the way, just having a philosophical discussion). On the one hand, the person with the gun, we might assume comes from a society that came to develop the technology of the gun. Same as for the cell phone. On the other hand the ethics of using a gun to overpower another person or not to do that can also determine the level of consciousness of the person. The ethics involved to use the gun, in a way we have to be neutral about because the use of the gun derives from the development of the gun. the use of the cellphone from the development of the cellphone. Guns are used in warfare, their design is intended to overpower an enemy. Is it a higher level of thinking? That depends on the environment (even political environment). The argument it seems is to not just look at the individual using the tool. but the individual using the tool in a society that developed the tool. The "higher mental level," might not be the right choice of words to meet the meaning intended. There doesn't in my mind appear to be a definitive way to say a person who uses guns to control others is more sophisticated. It could equally be said it is actually more barbaric. So I agree that there is a problem with those words, "higher mental level" The same might be said with "weaker" and "stronger." Is it stronger or weaker to use a gun? Is is weaker or stronger to use a cellphone? Is it higher or lower to use a gun? Is it higher or lower to use a cellphone? I feel that in this argument there is at issue the inability to properly assign words to the meaning intended to be communicated. In all philosophical discussions, it is imperative to be precise about words used to convey an argument, or it is like building a house on quicksand. Usually, in a proper philosophical discussion there will be a definition of words and their meanings. Perhaps Harshad might consider more deeply the words he intends to use for his arguments, and to define them for us more precisely. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin Packer Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 7:48 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. [EXTERNAL] Harshad Dave, Your ?points" seem to assume that a person with a gun has a "higher mental level.? Do you really believe? I certainly do not. Martin On Jun 25, 2020, at 8:10 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: Hi, This refers to the message of Andy, dtd. June 24, 2020, 2:04 PM. Let us keep timeline of mankind development as a base of reference in our mind while presenting my views here below. Point 1 Every creature in wild life has a set of abilities received under legacy as per natural law; it makes its living using the same abilities on events and occasions. You will agree that a strong man (even an ancient man) with the same set of natural abilities with him will not be able to kill a healthy tiger in a direct physical encounter, because the abilities that are warranted in the physical encounter are apparently at a different potential level where the tiger has a big lead. If the event of encounter was between the same tiger and a healthy rhinoceros, the tiger would have surely kept a safe distance from the rhinoceros avoiding the encounter based on its instinctive knowledge. Now, a physically far weak man with a gun (and practice to operate it) will kill the same tiger within no time. It is only because the weak man has a powerful supplement (the gun and its operating knowledge/practice) to his natural abilities. Point 2 Now, with reference to your words ?Two entire human beings, or two entire ways of life, two entire cultures, cannot be compared or "graded" along a scale.? I agree there is no measuring device or unit to compare them like mathematical or scientific procedure. However, with justice and good conscience, we might logically compare them in different traits of social potential. When Columbus reached to Caribbean island and met Tino and other natives there, just tentatively imagine, what was the level of above mentioned supplements to natural abilities with European people standing behind Columbus and that of natives of America. I agree there is no accurate metric, but there is surely a meaningful empirical sense of it. History is the witness?. ?The sense worked without the metric then, after Columbus returned and the great migration commenced?. It is just an example of a gun only. When a socio economic formation of a society changes, there are innumerable typical abilities that are achieved by the occupants of the society and they supplement the natural abilities of man. Point 3 I believe, if a thinker wants to make the study of social issues transparent and nearest to its realistic nature, he/she should not ride on two horses?. humanitarian sentiments/feelings and facts of natural laws simultaneously. Here I shall talk standing on the platform of facts of natural laws only. It is my view that the socio economic formation of any human society might represent the integrated overall potential level of the supplements to the natural abilities of people constituting the society (I shall address it ?the integrated overall potential level?). When the people of two societies with a large difference in their integrated overall potential levels (i. e. having different socio economic formations on the timeline) find long term reliable approach and excess for physical contact and occasions to interact, the society at higher integrated overall potential level (i. e. advance socio economic formation on timeline) has fair opportunities to exploit the rest one. This is equally true for the people residing under one roof of a nation. Here, in India, there is a popular saying by wise old people? ?A city breaks the villages?. Why did they get this empirical impression during their lifespan? It is only because; the people of the city live in advance socio economic formation, but the people of village legs behind in it. Every exchange between village and city?. When the city purchases products/services of village and village purchases products/services of city, villages are exploited like anything. It is equally true when two men are in dealing/interaction and their mindset level of socio economic formation are at different levels, the person with a mental level in compliance with backward (legging behind on timeline) socio economic formation is prone to be exploited by the other one, but both are in the same society. Point 4 That is the point I want to surface out. In my views, I get an impression that the constitutional structure of our society is like?., There are some people with appreciable compliance with the present 20th ? 21st century socio economic formation. There are people with some departure in the above compliance. There are people with a large void in the compliance. Now above all the three masses of people are living under one roof of a nation and in the same society but their mental level of socio economic formation are at different levels. Do you think that this difference will not generate any stress and strain on the functioning of the social system? Regards, Harshad Dave. On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 5:36 PM Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Hi Andy and Alfredo Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which we have to be concerned about. The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific tools?). My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. Regards, Simangele simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!UVyifVsQJIEovsL8hEWVuJkWkg0LrjzSgUsUKhK3osSK5Mv0bkHD3Ps2dy6CX9uh6KpFwg$ Regards S?ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear S?ma, I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *ideological* basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Friends! I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference. Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. This is horribly troubling Racist eugenics Please stop Phillip Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear Prof. David, Your message reads... "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. Point 1 If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that ?it is justified?. Please, try to understand me?. ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? OR ?If it is justified OR not justified? is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned ?Level difference?. Point 2 You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis.? I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe? an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. Regards, Harshad Dave On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: I agree Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Mr. Dave: I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UVyifVsQJIEovsL8hEWVuJkWkg0LrjzSgUsUKhK3osSK5Mv0bkHD3Ps2dy6CX9sNklEbow$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UVyifVsQJIEovsL8hEWVuJkWkg0LrjzSgUsUKhK3osSK5Mv0bkHD3Ps2dy6CX9sY2Q-sOA$ On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: David? Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. Point 1: When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. Point 2: Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both????.? It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.?] The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. Point 3: As concluded by David, ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts??? I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. Regards, Harshad Dave On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony-- I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UVyifVsQJIEovsL8hEWVuJkWkg0LrjzSgUsUKhK3osSK5Mv0bkHD3Ps2dy6CX9sNklEbow$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UVyifVsQJIEovsL8hEWVuJkWkg0LrjzSgUsUKhK3osSK5Mv0bkHD3Ps2dy6CX9sY2Q-sOA$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. Anthony On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. Hi, This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. There are two most probable answers. 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. ?I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.? Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. Regards, Harshad Dave On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Dear Harshad: I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UVyifVsQJIEovsL8hEWVuJkWkg0LrjzSgUsUKhK3osSK5Mv0bkHD3Ps2dy6CX9sNklEbow$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UVyifVsQJIEovsL8hEWVuJkWkg0LrjzSgUsUKhK3osSK5Mv0bkHD3Ps2dy6CX9sY2Q-sOA$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear all there, We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. Regards, Harshad Dave This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200625/9c1653c8/attachment.html From glassman.13@osu.edu Thu Jun 25 13:43:52 2020 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 20:43:52 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Request for help Message-ID: Hello, I wonder if somebody could help me. Where could I find the famous passage, ?the distance between the actualdevelopmental level as determined by independent problem solving and the level of potentialdevelopment as determined through problem solving under adult guidance or in collaboration withmore capable peers? in the original Russian? Thanks for any help anybody might be able to offer. Michael -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200625/9a638f21/attachment.html From dkirsh@lsu.edu Thu Jun 25 16:11:50 2020 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 23:11:50 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: S'ma, I don't think social sciences are any more ideological than natural sciences. After spending a year among social scientists, Kuhn (1970) "was struck by the number and extent of the overt disagreements between social scientists about the nature of legitimate scientific problems and methods. Both history and acquaintance made me doubt that practitioners of the natural sciences possess firmer or more permanent answers to such [foundational] questions than their colleagues in social science" (p. x). The critical difference Kuhn identified between these two types of science is that the natural sciences have reached a consensus about foundational issues and so don't have to deal with them. The methodological challenges you point to in social sciences are just an artifact of ideological dispersion, not a result of the presence or absence of ideology. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Simangele Mayisela Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 5:50 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about "scientific" knowledge (in this case in relation to "levels" of mental development and "ideology") and James Lindsay's argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: Lindasy and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call "Grievance studies", that perpetuates "self-pity" and "victim mentality". They further went on to produce fake scientific study "dog rape culture and feminism" known as "hoax science" as evidence of how unscientific "grievance studies" are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions - my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the review processes of scientific journals which we have to concerned about. The reason I brought up Lindsay's argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay's argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a "scientist" holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientiific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicities. The likes of Lindsay and Weisten bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of "scientific evidence" - who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have "primitive mental functioning" or "unsophisticated" mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a "Trojan Horse", that's according to Bret Weisten ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of "self-pity", "victim mentality", unsophisticated mental functioning, ... (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed "scientific tools"). My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this youtube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about "scientific" knowledge". It seems to me Paulo Friere "Education for the Oppressed" association to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and dubbed as "Education for the Depressed", which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. Regards, S'ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: thanks S'ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice-a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as "grievance studies"-is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire's Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of "critical social justice" books, which he defines as "a codified way to indulge people into self pity..."(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire's book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay's says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay's critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay's position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating "level of mental functioning"? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself" (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the "hypothesis" of the scientific question are the "levels" of mental development which are associated to "skin colour", with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the "backwards" economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about "what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?" with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is "scientific", "rigorous scientific" and "scholarship" vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view - if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay's argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!Q5hOCEOLShfCZzDJo29xyQu1F6TpHznsmesu6IMINqpAHlLmDMR_DDAdCAfgbrNhZmCV5Q$ Regards S'ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of "level" which is crucial to rendering the question "scientific". But couple with level, which could be quantifies as "high" and "low" or "superior" or "inferior" would account for "difference". As much as the question to be asked should be about the "ideological basis" , I think the "hypothesis" is likely to be linked to the "ideolody" as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S'ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear S'ma, I am not sure anyone could provide that "scientific" basis without first explaining what is meant by "level," and most importantly, why and how such explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *ideological* basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not finding the "scientific" basis but the how and why that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Friends! I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the "the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two." Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference. Regards, S'ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. This is horribly troubling Racist eugenics Please stop Phillip Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear Prof. David, Your message reads... "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. Point 1 If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it..... as if it is founded on the color of the skin. Here I disagree and simply say.... Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that "it is justified". Please, try to understand me.... "Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there" OR "If it is justified OR not justified" is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said "filth" does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned "Level difference". Point 2 You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out... "The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis." I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe... an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. Regards, Harshad Dave On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: I agree Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Mr. Dave: I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Q5hOCEOLShfCZzDJo29xyQu1F6TpHznsmesu6IMINqpAHlLmDMR_DDAdCAfgbrPYeOcLwQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Q5hOCEOLShfCZzDJo29xyQu1F6TpHznsmesu6IMINqpAHlLmDMR_DDAdCAfgbrMup_HZFg$ On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: David- Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. Point 1: When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. Point 2: Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- "Where the shoe pinches?" I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. [Go to page 28 and it starts - "It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both............." It ends at page no. 35 - ".......... prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only."] The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. Point 3: As concluded by David, "......but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts......" I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by "cast culture" but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of "cast culture". Regards, Harshad Dave On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony-- I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Q5hOCEOLShfCZzDJo29xyQu1F6TpHznsmesu6IMINqpAHlLmDMR_DDAdCAfgbrPYeOcLwQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Q5hOCEOLShfCZzDJo29xyQu1F6TpHznsmesu6IMINqpAHlLmDMR_DDAdCAfgbrMup_HZFg$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. Anthony On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. Hi, This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word "apartheid" just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word "apartheid", however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra - The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. There are two most probable answers. 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois - September 18, 1858. "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything." Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. Regards, Harshad Dave On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Dear Harshad: I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Q5hOCEOLShfCZzDJo29xyQu1F6TpHznsmesu6IMINqpAHlLmDMR_DDAdCAfgbrPYeOcLwQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Q5hOCEOLShfCZzDJo29xyQu1F6TpHznsmesu6IMINqpAHlLmDMR_DDAdCAfgbrMup_HZFg$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear all there, We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. Regards, Harshad Dave This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200625/249720df/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Jun 25 16:13:45 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 08:13:45 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Request for help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Michael-- "?????????? ????? ??????? ??? ??????????? ????????, ???????????? ? ??????? ?????, ???????? ??????????????, ? ??????? ?????????? ????????, ???????????? ? ??????? ?????, ???????? ??? ???????????? ???????? ? ? ?????????????? ? ????? ?????? ????????????" Take a look at the attached, by my dear colleague Nikolai.... David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QqmAPLMhCJspipIXv1lIJmQ1omPFvA2-wktirJrYvMgyxiFtIghQAsgv2rwRzifmMtrWfQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QqmAPLMhCJspipIXv1lIJmQ1omPFvA2-wktirJrYvMgyxiFtIghQAsgv2rwRzidGBQcuvw$ On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 5:47 AM Glassman, Michael wrote: > Hello, > > > > I wonder if somebody could help me. Where could I find the famous passage, > > > > ?the distance between the actualdevelopmental level as determined by > independent problem solving and the level of potentialdevelopment as > determined through problem solving under adult guidance or in collaboration > withmore capable peers? > > > > in the original Russian? > > > > Thanks for any help anybody might be able to offer. > > > > Michael > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200626/1818819d/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ZBR_and_ZPD_Is_there_a_difference.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 720332 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200626/1818819d/attachment-0001.pdf From glassman.13@osu.edu Thu Jun 25 17:21:45 2020 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 00:21:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Request for help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you so much David. Although the attachment did not come through. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 7:14 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Request for help Michael-- "?????????? ????? ??????? ??? ??????????? ????????, ???????????? ? ??????? ?????, ???????? ??????????????, ? ??????? ?????????? ????????, ???????????? ? ??????? ?????, ???????? ??? ???????????? ???????? ? ? ?????????????? ? ????? ?????? ????????????" Take a look at the attached, by my dear colleague Nikolai.... David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Tu3wER8DOBahBQQ563iz2gI3Xq1jUu-sL2A7C2wMM7MnQ1Y44EgOGiXI5qNp5zRVg3XKRA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Tu3wER8DOBahBQQ563iz2gI3Xq1jUu-sL2A7C2wMM7MnQ1Y44EgOGiXI5qNp5zQuzpf9HQ$ On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 5:47 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: Hello, I wonder if somebody could help me. Where could I find the famous passage, ?the distance between the actualdevelopmental level as determined by independent problem solving and the level of potentialdevelopment as determined through problem solving under adult guidance or in collaboration withmore capable peers? in the original Russian? Thanks for any help anybody might be able to offer. Michael -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200626/8c5ae49e/attachment.html From glassman.13@osu.edu Thu Jun 25 17:25:04 2020 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 00:25:04 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Request for help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Actually I did get the attachment. Thanks again. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 7:14 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Request for help Michael-- "?????????? ????? ??????? ??? ??????????? ????????, ???????????? ? ??????? ?????, ???????? ??????????????, ? ??????? ?????????? ????????, ???????????? ? ??????? ?????, ???????? ??? ???????????? ???????? ? ? ?????????????? ? ????? ?????? ????????????" Take a look at the attached, by my dear colleague Nikolai.... David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!URZ-YG62eHu1pkiR8d696BSJwgsOZ9r0eJu5F_z8uwq30HAhFLCALpUG_UbAZp3bE1JOpw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!URZ-YG62eHu1pkiR8d696BSJwgsOZ9r0eJu5F_z8uwq30HAhFLCALpUG_UbAZp3wqN178g$ On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 5:47 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: Hello, I wonder if somebody could help me. Where could I find the famous passage, ?the distance between the actualdevelopmental level as determined by independent problem solving and the level of potentialdevelopment as determined through problem solving under adult guidance or in collaboration withmore capable peers? in the original Russian? Thanks for any help anybody might be able to offer. Michael -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200626/31f6cb6c/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Jun 25 18:01:12 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:01:12 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Request for help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is a piece I wrote on the difficulties of translation, Michael. It addresses the translations problems related to obuchenie which relate to those of ZBR (which, being a representation of the Russian original, allows non-Russian reader to use their own, previously-structured, interpretations. (B has become a cottage industry and R is contested as progress). Nick elsewhere has addressed the difficulty around the social and individual "planes/levels" putting the Russian term in a dramaturgical context, which I think is a great interpretation. And then we have perezhivanie where the polysemy in Russian spills over into hyper polysemy. Tough task to sort all that out. mike On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 5:28 PM Glassman, Michael wrote: > Actually I did get the attachment. > > > > Thanks again. > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *David Kellogg > *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 7:14 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Request for help > > > > Michael-- > > > > "?????????? ????? ??????? ??? ??????????? ????????, ???????????? ? ??????? > ?????, ???????? ??????????????, ? ??????? ?????????? ????????, ???????????? > ? ??????? ?????, ???????? ??? ???????????? ???????? ? ? ?????????????? ? > ????? ?????? ????????????" > > > > Take a look at the attached, by my dear colleague Nikolai.... > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Tg6VOxowPx6Eyp7V-VmxN8VWq68vrLHUXI2mUCJ7glhulU7hRNj13PMOh0wPqQSHxgxBFQ$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Tg6VOxowPx6Eyp7V-VmxN8VWq68vrLHUXI2mUCJ7glhulU7hRNj13PMOh0wPqQQ3qbyl4w$ > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 5:47 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I wonder if somebody could help me. Where could I find the famous passage, > > > > ?the distance between the actualdevelopmental level as determined by > independent problem solving and the level of potentialdevelopment as > determined through problem solving under adult guidance or in collaboration > withmore capable peers? > > > > in the original Russian? > > > > Thanks for any help anybody might be able to offer. > > > > Michael > > -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Tg6VOxowPx6Eyp7V-VmxN8VWq68vrLHUXI2mUCJ7glhulU7hRNj13PMOh0wPqQTI8czSiw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200625/9c797f04/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: obuchenie.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 48261 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200625/9c797f04/attachment.pdf From Peg.Griffin@att.net Thu Jun 25 20:20:00 2020 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin, Ph.D.) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 23:20:00 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: <001101d63c4f$7a894df0$6f9be9d0$@att.net> <361553c6-674e-5758-0ec7-21e5be7cbce 5@marxists.org> <000401d63da3$4a3047d0$de90d770$@att.net> <0D51973B-8E27-49A8-83AE-A5BF3E79E133@cantab.net> <30f8a2a9-1a10-960f-fdc7 -6b50d3487ba7@marxists.org> <000201d63e70$9346ac70$b9d40550$@att.net> <007afb33-21e7-4c05-2138-3cd48ab788c8@ma rxists.org> Message-ID: <000001d64b68$adc61450$09523cf0$@att.net> A good piece about data in studies of police, even for people who break out in hives when they read statistics. Even many of the footnotes and hyperlinks are quite nice and ?collider bias? is interesting in itself and funny about how it got its name. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-statistics-dont-capture-the-full-extent-of-the-systemic-bias-in-policing/__;!!Mih3wA!SXOizJNkHOkm0MTHsaYXlMnJCUgDjtE0w2mM8nh5Y6vvISeLReq1-LPZ7XxWIJftbdUu2Q$ Peg PS: In an earlier post, I mentioned the trouble DC had getting mandated (and funded) data from our police and by coincidence this article has a link to part of the saga in the following phrase: ?data which is not always easy to obtain ? From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2020 6:15 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis Well done! On Jun 10, 2020, at 9:08 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: There is a good run through of the data here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxPVSdHT5MQ&t=1365s__;!!Mih3wA!SXOizJNkHOkm0MTHsaYXlMnJCUgDjtE0w2mM8nh5Y6vvISeLReq1-LPZ7XxWIJdQ3-fEsg$ that's 22m45s in. Andy _____ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 10/06/2020 1:13 am, Peg Griffin, Ph.D. wrote: Yes everyone suffers, but it is about white supremacy rather than racism. Other people in other places have other things, maybe other race supremacies to rise against. Whether it?s race or not, it?s people with the knees on the necks that must lead and be followed. Who follows, here, is whoever isn?t a white supremacist. It is painful and time taking to apprehend what white privilege means in action. It is difficult to persevere in the denial of white privilege in one?s own life. It?s a careful distinction ? between white supremacy and racism. Here and now the reduction to racism deflects us to an ?epigenetic byway,? provides room to protect dangerous institutions and practices, to produce misshapen changes. White supremacists make references to, praise, make symbols of, people who are not white whose jobs or statements or health; it is supposed to be prima facie evidence that they aren?t racist. More long term and subtly, it divides us, hides them, and maligns and degrades us. The ties that bind white supremacy and fascism are blatant, as Mike?s references to the late 30?s highlight. PG From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [ mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 11:02 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis No, the American Century is over, I believe, even if America can take a leading part in ushering in the new epoch, I think it will be to release the rest of the world from the USA's mania to micromanage everyone else. The pandemic was, I think, the catalyst which brought the issues to the surface which were bubbling away for a long time. And might I venture the opinion that the vast investment in this BLM movement by young "white" people is in large part because cops kill a hell of a lot of white kids as well, and everyone is suffering under the system in which African Americans are victimised. Andy _____ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 9/06/2020 12:11 pm, Martin Packer wrote: On Jun 8, 2020, at 8:34 PM, Andy Blunden < andyb@marxists.org> wrote: Even in the depths of degradation and ignominy America can lead, it seems. This is something worth and worthy of theorizing, isn?t it?! Turns out the World Perezhivanie is not the coronavirus, or at least not the coronavirus alone. It is racism. And the global subject that has just been formed has found its lead in the US. The US Century may not be over after all! Martin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200625/ee00c403/attachment.html From simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za Fri Jun 26 00:05:33 2020 From: simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za (Simangele Mayisela) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 07:05:33 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> , Message-ID: Point noted David, thank you. To the group, your conversations are quite informative and thought provoking, thank you to the hosts of this thread. Regards, S'ma Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David H Kirshner Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 1:11:50 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. S?ma, I don?t think social sciences are any more ideological than natural sciences. After spending a year among social scientists, Kuhn (1970) ?was struck by the number and extent of the overt disagreements between social scientists about the nature of legitimate scientific problems and methods. Both history and acquaintance made me doubt that practitioners of the natural sciences possess firmer or more permanent answers to such [foundational] questions than their colleagues in social science? (p. x). The critical difference Kuhn identified between these two types of science is that the natural sciences have reached a consensus about foundational issues and so don?t have to deal with them. The methodological challenges you point to in social sciences are just an artifact of ideological dispersion, not a result of the presence or absence of ideology. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Simangele Mayisela Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 5:50 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: Lindasy and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the review processes of scientific journals which we have to concerned about. The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientiific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicities. The likes of Lindsay and Weisten bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weisten ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific tools?). My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this youtube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. It seems to me Paulo Friere ?Education for the Oppressed? association to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and dubbed as ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!QfVm3BU4e-0dMjmBP_sd71n9WoXQJa6cksCbSujCenfIzeh1ZCHW6uCpCbtzAVMMRxE31A$ Regards S?ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear S?ma, I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *ideological* basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Friends! I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference. Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. This is horribly troubling Racist eugenics Please stop Phillip Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear Prof. David, Your message reads... "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. Point 1 If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that ?it is justified?. Please, try to understand me?. ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? OR ?If it is justified OR not justified? is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned ?Level difference?. Point 2 You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis.? I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe? an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. Regards, Harshad Dave On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: I agree Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Mr. Dave: I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QfVm3BU4e-0dMjmBP_sd71n9WoXQJa6cksCbSujCenfIzeh1ZCHW6uCpCbtzAVMEK0GF8g$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QfVm3BU4e-0dMjmBP_sd71n9WoXQJa6cksCbSujCenfIzeh1ZCHW6uCpCbtzAVNOSZhswQ$ On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: David? Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. Point 1: When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. Point 2: Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both????.? It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.?] The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. Point 3: As concluded by David, ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts??? I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. Regards, Harshad Dave On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony-- I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QfVm3BU4e-0dMjmBP_sd71n9WoXQJa6cksCbSujCenfIzeh1ZCHW6uCpCbtzAVMEK0GF8g$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QfVm3BU4e-0dMjmBP_sd71n9WoXQJa6cksCbSujCenfIzeh1ZCHW6uCpCbtzAVNOSZhswQ$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. Anthony On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. Hi, This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. There are two most probable answers. 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. ?I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.? Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. Regards, Harshad Dave On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Dear Harshad: I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QfVm3BU4e-0dMjmBP_sd71n9WoXQJa6cksCbSujCenfIzeh1ZCHW6uCpCbtzAVMEK0GF8g$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QfVm3BU4e-0dMjmBP_sd71n9WoXQJa6cksCbSujCenfIzeh1ZCHW6uCpCbtzAVNOSZhswQ$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear all there, We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. Regards, Harshad Dave This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200626/1decbba2/attachment.html From glassman.13@osu.edu Fri Jun 26 03:55:41 2020 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 10:55:41 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Request for help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks so much for this Mike. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 9:01 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Request for help Here is a piece I wrote on the difficulties of translation, Michael. It addresses the translations problems related to obuchenie which relate to those of ZBR (which, being a representation of the Russian original, allows non-Russian reader to use their own, previously-structured, interpretations. (B has become a cottage industry and R is contested as progress). Nick elsewhere has addressed the difficulty around the social and individual "planes/levels" putting the Russian term in a dramaturgical context, which I think is a great interpretation. And then we have perezhivanie where the polysemy in Russian spills over into hyper polysemy. Tough task to sort all that out. mike On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 5:28 PM Glassman, Michael > wrote: Actually I did get the attachment. Thanks again. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 7:14 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Request for help Michael-- "?????????? ????? ??????? ??? ??????????? ????????, ???????????? ? ??????? ?????, ???????? ??????????????, ? ??????? ?????????? ????????, ???????????? ? ??????? ?????, ???????? ??? ???????????? ???????? ? ? ?????????????? ? ????? ?????? ????????????" Take a look at the attached, by my dear colleague Nikolai.... David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!W3J2t4GNod_23ibA01qFBz-a4tVtOaxM_y-IDDyp72txmi8U7k4p31teSy22e9Pfk29h1g$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!W3J2t4GNod_23ibA01qFBz-a4tVtOaxM_y-IDDyp72txmi8U7k4p31teSy22e9OgOfexMg$ On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 5:47 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: Hello, I wonder if somebody could help me. Where could I find the famous passage, ?the distance between the actualdevelopmental level as determined by independent problem solving and the level of potentialdevelopment as determined through problem solving under adult guidance or in collaboration withmore capable peers? in the original Russian? Thanks for any help anybody might be able to offer. Michael -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!W3J2t4GNod_23ibA01qFBz-a4tVtOaxM_y-IDDyp72txmi8U7k4p31teSy22e9O2x_0gxw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200626/e768c173/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Fri Jun 26 04:26:30 2020 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 16:56:30 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: Ref.: This refers to the message of Annalisa dtd. Jun 26, 2020, 12:37 PM. Hi, First of all I point out that the example of *the man with a gun* is just a secondary discussion where, ultimately, I just wanted to draw specific attention of the readers that every up gradation of socio economic formation brought innumerable changes in the overall constitution of the subject upgraded society, where one of them is?. ?it (up gradation) brought more supplementing to the various natural abilities?. I believe that we should not change our concentration from the main line of our discussion and that part follows then after in my subject message. However, when it is raised I just put my views to avoid confusion. If you read the message again you will notice that initially I have clarified ?Let us keep *timeline of mankind development* as a base of reference in our mind while presenting my views here below.? I have presented my views with reference to timeline only and differentiated two cases in that context only. I believe?. When we discuss such issues we should not evaluate two different cases to decide one is better than another or superior/inferior or higher/lower?. We might just acknowledge both are different. What are the repercussions of this difference might be a subject of discussion. You have discussed the subject matter with examples but I think it is ?*a shallow water swimming*?. The subject matter that we discuss cannot be concluded just so easily that is what my impression says. Lastly, if one wants to grasp what a person wants to say in his message, apart from word to word clarity in her message, it equally depends on the reader?s cooperation also. With true regards, Harshad Dave NB: with reference to your message dtd. 25 June 2020 3.33 am, I shall put my views in a couple of days, it is under my pen. On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 12:37 PM Simangele Mayisela < simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote: > Point noted David, thank you. > > To the group, your conversations are quite informative and thought > provoking, thank you to the hosts of this thread. > > Regards, > S'ma > > Get Outlook for Android > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David H Kirshner > *Sent:* Friday, June 26, 2020 1:11:50 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > S?ma, > > > > I don?t think social sciences are any more *ideological* than natural > sciences. > > After spending a year among social scientists, Kuhn (1970) ?was struck by > the number and extent of the overt disagreements between social scientists > about the nature of legitimate scientific problems and methods. Both > history and acquaintance made me doubt that practitioners of the natural > sciences possess firmer or more permanent answers to such [foundational] > questions than their colleagues in social science? (p. x). The critical > difference Kuhn identified between these two types of science is that the > natural sciences have reached a consensus about foundational issues and so > don?t have to deal with them. The methodological challenges you point to in > social sciences are just an artifact of ideological dispersion, not a > result of the presence or absence of ideology. > > > > David > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 5:50 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video. > Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about > ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in relation to ?levels? of mental > development and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory > having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: > > > > Lindasy and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with > its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, > Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement > which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and > ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study > ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how > unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are > situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the > system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also > tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces > mistrust in the review processes of scientific journals which we have to > concerned about. > > > > The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am > not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, > I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of > ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an > idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we > aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientiific enquiry, the > narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be > tainted with ideologically biases or historicities. The likes of Lindsay > and Weisten bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the > masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid > technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather > than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive > mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their > unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical > Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weisten ( > po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ > ) surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is > scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, unsophisticated > mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe > all those who have not developed ?scientific tools?). > > > > My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources > that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this youtube video I > referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? > knowledge?. > > > > It seems to me Paulo Friere ?Education for the Oppressed? association to > "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and dubbed as ?Education for the > Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration > all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. > Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is > evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously > shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the > privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival > of humanity. > > > > Regards, > > S?ma > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or > "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive > movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a > sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at > stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. > There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called > philanthropy and charity. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss > what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video > critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance > studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this > conversation! > > > > In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so > well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions > Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social > justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into > self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with > Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, > as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether > Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory > scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an > example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * > on behalf of Martin Packer > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Hi Simangele, > > > > How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is > something with which psychology has had some difficulty. > > > > Martin > > > > *"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss > matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my > partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with > the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930)* > > > > > > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela < > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote: > > > > Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that > at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the > ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with > little consideration of the historical oppression that created the > ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what > appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more > about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black > skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. > > > > Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is > ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular > narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking > over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are > Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument > on ideologies. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!SWhaCYspjB0Fwkf5inKjj_acjzfAKzlrfKn98OD6ZhwVS1k4ElznEDX0-cWaBdnlxpEf2g$ > > > > > Regards > > S?ma > > > > > > > > *From:* Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear Alfredo > > > > Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering > the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies > as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for > ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the > ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to > the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the > scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms > of the ideas. > > > > Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? > > Regards, > > S?ma > > > > > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Alfredo Jornet Gil > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear S?ma, > > > > I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first > explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such > explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across > cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your > curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear > about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate > scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from > history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion > is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its * > *ideological** basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by > posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in > history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences > between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such > cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not > finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being > raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Friends! > > > > I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the > difference in the level of *the mental socioeconomic formation* between > the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this > difference. > > > > Regards, > > S?ma > > > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *White, Phillip > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > This is horribly troubling > > Racist eugenics > > Please stop > > > > Phillip > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave wrote: > > > Dear Prof. David, > > > > Your message reads... > > "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without > a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It > certainly does not belong on this list." > > > > I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you > might catch the sound of my saying. > > > > Point 1 > > If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution > of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great > misunderstanding. > > > > Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd > or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism > in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible > for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. > > Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of > the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of *the > mental socioeconomic formation* between the two. > > Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that *?it > is justified?*. > > Please, try to understand me?. > > ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? > > OR > > ?If it is justified OR not justified? > > is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said > ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above > mentioned ?Level difference?. > > > > Point 2 > > You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in > my previous message. > > If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your > message, I think you pointed out? > > ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have *scientific > understanding* and *scientific basis*.? > > I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched > if they have scientific support as above. I believe? *an outcome of > contemplation* and *a logical compliance* are the supports and > justifications of any *thinker* to present his views. > > If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to > support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his > views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not > claimed the views are *rules* and *laws*. If readers do not agree with > them, the views automatically will become null and void. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: > > I agree > > > > > > > > *Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor* > > *Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of > Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa* > > *email: **vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za* * > tel: +27 33 260 6163* > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear Mr. Dave: > > > > I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a > shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly > does not belong on this list. > > > > "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were > living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio > economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and > downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned > and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads > of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the > pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status > was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they > were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. > Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give > consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and > structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides > face while they have to interact with each others." > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SWhaCYspjB0Fwkf5inKjj_acjzfAKzlrfKn98OD6ZhwVS1k4ElznEDX0-cWaBdkiZVRZhw$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SWhaCYspjB0Fwkf5inKjj_acjzfAKzlrfKn98OD6ZhwVS1k4ElznEDX0-cWaBdnZSYMfNw$ > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave wrote: > > > David? > > Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a > conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it > might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put > three points to express myself. > > *Point 1:* > > When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets > of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my > feelings/sentiments founded on *philosophy of humanity* to work on the > issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if > they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. > > If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be > discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our *sentiments and > emotions on humanitarian concepts* and second leg on the horse of *facts > of* *the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic > formation, *I think he will never succeed in his task. > > *Point 2:* > > Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? > I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on > page 28 as the article is very long. > > [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be > two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic > formations and both????.? > > It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is > mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of > enjoyment through their abilities only.?] > > The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be > overlooked with our *justice and good conscience*. > > *Point 3:* > > As concluded by David, > > ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in > the USA using concepts??? > > I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in > India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might > think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics > remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Anthony-- > > > > I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that > Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are > related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they > are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not > classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by > relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups > that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular > professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in > India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" > in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when > he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into > interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory > and psychology! > > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SWhaCYspjB0Fwkf5inKjj_acjzfAKzlrfKn98OD6ZhwVS1k4ElznEDX0-cWaBdkiZVRZhw$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SWhaCYspjB0Fwkf5inKjj_acjzfAKzlrfKn98OD6ZhwVS1k4ElznEDX0-cWaBdnZSYMfNw$ > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is > that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a > nice day, regardless. > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave wrote: > > > > > Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. > > Hi, > > This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for > the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? > just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are > discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for > the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take > its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended > articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or > more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. > Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and > it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. > > I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 > June 2020. > > There are two most probable answers. > > 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism > (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. > > 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests > and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European > people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. > > I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one > out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, > but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. > > It is a mistake to believe that *the attitude of discrimination* and *sickness > of racism *harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above > altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of *mental socio economic > formation status* of two men. There is a basic difference between the two > statuses of *mental socio economic formation *of black people of African > origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass > of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has > fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with > backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of > peoples at different *mental socio economic formation status* also. But, > here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society > with one *constitution* and uniform *rule of laws*. It is absurd to > believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA > (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each > and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present > society of the USA with different levels of *mental socio economic > formation status*. It is really a complicated situation when the society > is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the > society are with varying levels of *mental socio economic formation > status* in the same society. Let me present part of the message of > Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. > > Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. > > ?*I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing > about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black > races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making > voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to > intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there > is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe > will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and > political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do > remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I > as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position > assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that > because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be > denied everything.*? > > > > Here it is between the lines that difference in the *mental socio > economic formation status* could be compensated to some extent, but for > equality people with backward *mental socio economic formation status* > will have to work hard to develop the same. > > I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue > of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject > matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real > cause harbors. > > > > Regards, > > > > Harshad Dave > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Dear Harshad: > > > > I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the > references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. > As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to > shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to > do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and > certainly profitted from the looting politically). > > > > "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, > who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and > Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, > prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which > Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my > hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is > euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and > "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". > > > > Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many > "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter > than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave > owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I > visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from > Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SWhaCYspjB0Fwkf5inKjj_acjzfAKzlrfKn98OD6ZhwVS1k4ElznEDX0-cWaBdkiZVRZhw$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SWhaCYspjB0Fwkf5inKjj_acjzfAKzlrfKn98OD6ZhwVS1k4ElznEDX0-cWaBdnZSYMfNw$ > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave wrote: > > > > Dear all there, > > > > We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA > under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on > the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and > discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in > newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We > just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out > burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against > apartheid was the major cry behind them. > > Though there are various vital aspects of the event, *apartheid* remained > prime of them. > > I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. > > > > Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the > USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to > perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the > europeans changed to black like negro. > > I ask my friends, "What will be the status of *apartheid* in this > situation?" > > > > NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views > on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in > the article. > > > > Regards, > > > > Harshad Dave > > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify us > immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. > Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on > behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content > of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may > contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not > necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, > Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are > subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the > contrary. > > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify us > immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. > Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on > behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content > of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may > contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not > necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, > Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are > subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the > contrary. > > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify us > immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. > Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on > behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content > of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may > contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not > necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, > Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are > subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the > contrary. > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify us > immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. > Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on > behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content > of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may > contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not > necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, > Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are > subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the > contrary. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200626/bbb970bd/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Fri Jun 26 07:57:38 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 09:57:38 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: <035C7D25-DAA2-4ECB-A8AF-C6D575E09B41@cantab.net> Harshad Dave, You don?t seem to like my question. Let me put it a different way. You state that technology can ?supplement human's natural abilities.? Okay, with a cellphone I can talk to people on the other side of the planet. With a bulldozer I can knock down a building singlehanded. With a gun I can kill people from a distance. But you seem to be equating ?supplemented natural abilities? with ?higher mental level.? Am I somehow better at problem solving if I can talk to people who are distant? Do I have a better memory if I can knock down bigger things? Am I operating on a higher mental level if I can kill people more easily? Is that what you think? Martin > On Jun 26, 2020, at 6:26 AM, Harshad Dave wrote: > > Ref.: This refers to the message of Annalisa dtd. Jun 26, 2020, 12:37 PM. > > Hi, > > First of all I point out that the example of the man with a gun is just a secondary discussion where, ultimately, I just wanted to draw specific attention of the readers that every up gradation of socio economic formation brought innumerable changes in the overall constitution of the subject upgraded society, where one of them is?. ?it (up gradation) brought more supplementing to the various natural abilities?. I believe that we should not change our concentration from the main line of our discussion and that part follows then after in my subject message. > > However, when it is raised I just put my views to avoid confusion. If you read the message again you will notice that initially I have clarified > > ?Let us keep timeline of mankind development as a base of reference in our mind while presenting my views here below.? > > I have presented my views with reference to timeline only and differentiated two cases in that context only. > > I believe?. When we discuss such issues we should not evaluate two different cases to decide one is better than another or superior/inferior or higher/lower?. We might just acknowledge both are different. What are the repercussions of this difference might be a subject of discussion. > > You have discussed the subject matter with examples but I think it is ?a shallow water swimming?. The subject matter that we discuss cannot be concluded just so easily that is what my impression says. > > Lastly, if one wants to grasp what a person wants to say in his message, apart from word to word clarity in her message, it equally depends on the reader?s cooperation also. > > With true regards, > > Harshad Dave > > NB: with reference to your message dtd. 25 June 2020 3.33 am, I shall put my views in a couple of days, it is under my pen. > > > > On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 12:37 PM Simangele Mayisela > wrote: > Point noted David, thank you. > > To the group, your conversations are quite informative and thought provoking, thank you to the hosts of this thread. > > Regards, > S'ma > > Get Outlook for Android > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David H Kirshner > > Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 1:11:50 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > S?ma, > > > I don?t think social sciences are any more ideological than natural sciences. > > After spending a year among social scientists, Kuhn (1970) ?was struck by the number and extent of the overt disagreements between social scientists about the nature of legitimate scientific problems and methods. Both history and acquaintance made me doubt that practitioners of the natural sciences possess firmer or more permanent answers to such [foundational] questions than their colleagues in social science? (p. x). The critical difference Kuhn identified between these two types of science is that the natural sciences have reached a consensus about foundational issues and so don?t have to deal with them. The methodological challenges you point to in social sciences are just an artifact of ideological dispersion, not a result of the presence or absence of ideology. > > > David > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 5:50 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: > > > Lindasy and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the review processes of scientific journals which we have to concerned about. > > > The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientiific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicities. The likes of Lindsay and Weisten bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weisten ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific tools?). > > > My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this youtube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. > > > It seems to me Paulo Friere ?Education for the Oppressed? association to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and dubbed as ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. > > > Regards, > > S?ma > > > > > > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. > > Andy > > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! > > > In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? > > > Alfredo > > From: on behalf of Martin Packer > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > Hi Simangele, > > > How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. > > > Martin > > > "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) > > > > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: > > > Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. > > > Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!Wl8loIZ5znDPtEEmoFpGHN8FkRV47L763qJCrTKZ3Fl2m7UBZqQTA8fKatnQi3S0fscMLQ$ > > Regards > > S?ma > > > > > From: Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > Dear Alfredo > > > Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. > > > Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? > > Regards, > > S?ma > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > Dear S?ma, > > > I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *ideological* basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? > > > Alfredo > > From: > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > Friends! > > > I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference. > > > Regards, > > S?ma > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of White, Phillip > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > This is horribly troubling > > Racist eugenics > > Please stop > > > Phillip > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: > > > > Dear Prof. David, > > > Your message reads... > > "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." > > > I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. > > > Point 1 > > If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. > > > Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. > > Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. > > Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that ?it is justified?. > > Please, try to understand me?. > > ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? > > OR > > ?If it is justified OR not justified? > > is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned ?Level difference?. > > > Point 2 > > You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. > > If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? > > ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis.? > > I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe? an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. > > If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: > > I agree > > > > > Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor > > Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa > > email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > Dear Mr. Dave: > > > I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. > > > "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Wl8loIZ5znDPtEEmoFpGHN8FkRV47L763qJCrTKZ3Fl2m7UBZqQTA8fKatnQi3QqsXbq7A$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Wl8loIZ5znDPtEEmoFpGHN8FkRV47L763qJCrTKZ3Fl2m7UBZqQTA8fKatnQi3TeFikK2Q$ > > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: > > > > David? > > Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. > > Point 1: > > When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. > > If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. > > Point 2: > > Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. > > [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both????.? > > It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.?] > > The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. > > Point 3: > > As concluded by David, > > ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts??? > > I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Anthony-- > > > I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Wl8loIZ5znDPtEEmoFpGHN8FkRV47L763qJCrTKZ3Fl2m7UBZqQTA8fKatnQi3QqsXbq7A$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Wl8loIZ5znDPtEEmoFpGHN8FkRV47L763qJCrTKZ3Fl2m7UBZqQTA8fKatnQi3TeFikK2Q$ > > > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. > > > Anthony > > > > > On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: > > > > > Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. > > Hi, > > This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. > > I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. > > There are two most probable answers. > > 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. > > 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. > > I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. > > It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. > > Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. > > ?I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.? > > > Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. > > I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. > > > Regards, > > > Harshad Dave > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Dear Harshad: > > > I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). > > > "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". > > > Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Wl8loIZ5znDPtEEmoFpGHN8FkRV47L763qJCrTKZ3Fl2m7UBZqQTA8fKatnQi3QqsXbq7A$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Wl8loIZ5znDPtEEmoFpGHN8FkRV47L763qJCrTKZ3Fl2m7UBZqQTA8fKatnQi3TeFikK2Q$ > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: > > > Dear all there, > > > We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. > > Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. > > I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. > > > Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. > > I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" > > > NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. > > > Regards, > > > Harshad Dave > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200626/e15e4dc8/attachment.html From goncu@uic.edu Fri Jun 26 08:56:21 2020 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 15:56:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Request for help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you, Mike, for sharing this. Artin Goncu, Ph.D Professor, Emeritus University of Illinois at Chicago https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.artingoncu.com/__;!!Mih3wA!XgTgkljulOEToO9IaML5Zwd1tsuqCq2_r0lcnsx7d590zddKimVq2IQyX1t9ui1DXf2k4Q$ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 8:01 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Request for help Here is a piece I wrote on the difficulties of translation, Michael. It addresses the translations problems related to obuchenie which relate to those of ZBR (which, being a representation of the Russian original, allows non-Russian reader to use their own, previously-structured, interpretations. (B has become a cottage industry and R is contested as progress). Nick elsewhere has addressed the difficulty around the social and individual "planes/levels" putting the Russian term in a dramaturgical context, which I think is a great interpretation. And then we have perezhivanie where the polysemy in Russian spills over into hyper polysemy. Tough task to sort all that out. mike On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 5:28 PM Glassman, Michael > wrote: Actually I did get the attachment. Thanks again. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 7:14 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Request for help Michael-- "?????????? ????? ??????? ??? ??????????? ????????, ???????????? ? ??????? ?????, ???????? ??????????????, ? ??????? ?????????? ????????, ???????????? ? ??????? ?????, ???????? ??? ???????????? ???????? ? ? ?????????????? ? ????? ?????? ????????????" Take a look at the attached, by my dear colleague Nikolai.... David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XgTgkljulOEToO9IaML5Zwd1tsuqCq2_r0lcnsx7d590zddKimVq2IQyX1t9ui0RTwq1Vw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XgTgkljulOEToO9IaML5Zwd1tsuqCq2_r0lcnsx7d590zddKimVq2IQyX1t9ui1omUBsUw$ On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 5:47 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: Hello, I wonder if somebody could help me. Where could I find the famous passage, ?the distance between the actualdevelopmental level as determined by independent problem solving and the level of potentialdevelopment as determined through problem solving under adult guidance or in collaboration withmore capable peers? in the original Russian? Thanks for any help anybody might be able to offer. Michael -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XgTgkljulOEToO9IaML5Zwd1tsuqCq2_r0lcnsx7d590zddKimVq2IQyX1t9ui1dQmbHZA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200626/454dd695/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jun 26 13:36:55 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 20:36:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> , Message-ID: Hello S'ma and venerable others, I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" around the shoulders, etc. It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as grievous as Holocaust deniers. Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not earned through merit. When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as if they have no right to do so. So who has the right to use this word "victim"? I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk about social Darwinism! I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident. 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical illusion. 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war victims. 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. I did the same for the term survivor: 1. a person or thing that survives. 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks. Synoymns: balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most recent accepted meaning? It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be considered mere leftovers. Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own unearned benefit and advancement? Is that fitness or crime? At the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word without these undertowing currents of meaning? We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My ancestors were enslaved by yours." And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in this fashion. Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors enslaved yours." The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice to meet the crime? In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or the promotion of eugenics. I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that now. I see the errors of my ways." It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the past, let's move on." There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Simangele Mayisela Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. [EXTERNAL] Hi Andy and Alfredo Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which we have to be concerned about. The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific tools?). My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. Regards, Simangele simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!Qq7iMvVXQK_hFwdHwBWn7GKBl3KUrdNtnsk7Pl5E5MzqhQXPDdA_r7HvE0duOmL1IuzVjw$ Regards S?ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear S?ma, I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *ideological* basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Friends! I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference. Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. This is horribly troubling Racist eugenics Please stop Phillip Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear Prof. David, Your message reads... "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. Point 1 If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that ?it is justified?. Please, try to understand me?. ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? OR ?If it is justified OR not justified? is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned ?Level difference?. Point 2 You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis.? I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe? an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. Regards, Harshad Dave On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: I agree Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Mr. Dave: I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Qq7iMvVXQK_hFwdHwBWn7GKBl3KUrdNtnsk7Pl5E5MzqhQXPDdA_r7HvE0duOmJb54vImQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Qq7iMvVXQK_hFwdHwBWn7GKBl3KUrdNtnsk7Pl5E5MzqhQXPDdA_r7HvE0duOmKVy07DRQ$ On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: David? Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. Point 1: When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. Point 2: Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both????.? It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.?] The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. Point 3: As concluded by David, ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts??? I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. Regards, Harshad Dave On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony-- I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Qq7iMvVXQK_hFwdHwBWn7GKBl3KUrdNtnsk7Pl5E5MzqhQXPDdA_r7HvE0duOmJb54vImQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Qq7iMvVXQK_hFwdHwBWn7GKBl3KUrdNtnsk7Pl5E5MzqhQXPDdA_r7HvE0duOmKVy07DRQ$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. Anthony On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. Hi, This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. There are two most probable answers. 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. ?I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.? Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. Regards, Harshad Dave On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Dear Harshad: I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Qq7iMvVXQK_hFwdHwBWn7GKBl3KUrdNtnsk7Pl5E5MzqhQXPDdA_r7HvE0duOmJb54vImQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Qq7iMvVXQK_hFwdHwBWn7GKBl3KUrdNtnsk7Pl5E5MzqhQXPDdA_r7HvE0duOmKVy07DRQ$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear all there, We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. Regards, Harshad Dave This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200626/4b168a97/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Fri Jun 26 21:47:26 2020 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 10:17:26 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: This refers to the message of Martin dtd. 26 June 2020 8.30 pm. Hi, You are right and you have caught my feelings telepathically regarding your first message dtd 25 June 2020, 7.21 pm. Anyway, let us come to the points of discussion. Part of the answer is given in my message to Annalisa yesterday (26 June 2020, 4.56 pm). However, I simply and shortly explain my point again. The example of man with a gun stands for just to clarify that discoveries and inventions supplement the natural abilities of man to a substantial extent and this supplementing increases on timeline walking towards later (advance) period on the timeline. The questions you raised on this point have answers in the form of my views but it will open a new discussion on different subject matter and I do not want to go away from the prime line of our discussion. The prime point you raised in the last paragraph of your message is the correct one. I explain it again here bellow, Let us take the example of the city London of the UK. You will agree that in the year 1700 London was there as it is also there in the year 2020. You will agree that socio economic formations of society of London and that of the same in the year 2020 are not equal or same. You will also find a difference in various traits of social constitution, systems and institutions of the respective time. It is not necessary to engage us to determine which one was better out of two. It is just sufficient to determine that they (both) are different. If we randomly select five persons from the society of London in the year 1700 and other randomly selected five persons today in 2020, you will find a *difference* in intellectual competence in various traits. Here, I make you aware that I use the word *difference*. It is not always true that any comparison between two should necessarily return with a result declaring one of them inferior and other as superior, one as good and other as bad. But it might surely return with an outcome that both are different. Here, in my discussion, I have addressed the integrated concept of these traits overall as ?mental level? and it is linked with the socio economic formation in which the person is living and that is why I address it as ?mental socio economic level?. Now, if you (and other friends) agree that there is a difference in mental level, I simply say that? When two persons with different mental levels have occasions and events to come into interaction with each other in a society, it generates stress and strain in the functioning of the social system. Hope It is now clarified. With true regards, Harshad Dave. On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 2:08 AM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello S'ma and venerable others, > > I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a > "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" > around the shoulders, etc. > > It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as > grievous as Holocaust deniers. > > Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended > to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught > and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as > nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the > veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which > in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not > earned through merit. > > When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for > someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is > done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as > if they have no right to do so. > > So who has the right to use this word "victim"? > > I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word > "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. > > Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate > victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something > unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and > even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful > effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). > > Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? > > Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of > resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we > consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show > (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult > circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their > wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk > about social Darwinism! > > I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about > the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, > neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. > > Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: > > 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or > agency: a victim of an automobile accident. > 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions > or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a > victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an > optical illusion. > 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war > victims. > 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. > > When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: > casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, > gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, > pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, > underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured > party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. > > I did the same for the term survivor: > > 1. a person or thing that survives. > > 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or > others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. > 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of > opposition, hardship, or setbacks. > > Synoymns: > balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, > remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts > > The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most > recent accepted meaning? > > It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and > survivors to be considered mere leftovers. > > Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries > to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what > criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own > unearned benefit and advancement? > > Is that fitness or crime? > > At the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. > > What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered > against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word > without these undertowing currents of meaning? > > We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or > "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I > am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My > ancestors were enslaved by yours." > > And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate > individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in > this fashion. > > Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an > oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am > a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors > enslaved yours." > > The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and > descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to > say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This > happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." > > While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), > who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, > I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those > who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase > like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of > shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just > they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that > Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering > perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. > > Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in > past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means > justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la > vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from > "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? > > Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice > to meet the crime? > > In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, > but now it seems it is too slowly. > > This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about > power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems > unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? > > Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and > their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or > the promotion of eugenics. > > I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of > the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George > W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's > 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the > kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. > > Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) > oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection > to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the > injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed > me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that > now. I see the errors of my ways." > > It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk > percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the > past, let's move on." > > There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, > and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. > Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? > > I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. > Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. > > Kind regards, > Annalisa > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Hi Andy and Alfredo > > > > Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I > referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between > the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in > relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James > Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the > video) is this: > > > > Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with > its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, > Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement > which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and > ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study > ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how > unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are > situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the > system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also > tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces > mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which > we have to be concerned about. > > > > The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am > not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, > I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of > ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an > idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we > aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives > associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with > ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein > bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the > name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological > connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in > specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental > functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected > ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like > a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( > po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ > ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan > Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, > unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying > adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific > tools?). > > > > My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources > that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I > referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? > knowledge?. > > > > It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for > the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook > for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we > take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for > Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical > Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is > generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge > accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to > advance the survival of humanity. > > > > Regards, > > Simangele > > > > > > > > > > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or > "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive > movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a > sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at > stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. > There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called > philanthropy and charity. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss > what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video > critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance > studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this > conversation! > > > > In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so > well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions > Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social > justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into > self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with > Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, > as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether > Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory > scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an > example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * > on behalf of Martin Packer > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Hi Simangele, > > > > How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is > something with which psychology has had some difficulty. > > > > Martin > > > > *"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss > matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my > partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with > the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930)* > > > > > > > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela < > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote: > > > > Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that > at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the > ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with > little consideration of the historical oppression that created the > ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what > appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more > about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black > skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. > > > > Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is > ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular > narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking > over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are > Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument > on ideologies. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!XSceodIW2xmrZKz8v7Gq_Dkr9Td554ir5v5IfJQjNLcG-Ts55m-SO3jSvJGCYsAN728lsw$ > > > > > Regards > > S?ma > > > > > > > > *From:* Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear Alfredo > > > > Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering > the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies > as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for > ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the > ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to > the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the > scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms > of the ideas. > > > > Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? > > Regards, > > S?ma > > > > > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Alfredo Jornet Gil > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear S?ma, > > > > I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first > explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such > explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across > cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your > curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear > about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate > scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from > history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion > is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its * > *ideological** basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by > posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in > history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences > between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such > cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not > finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being > raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Friends! > > > > I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the > difference in the level of *the mental socioeconomic formation* between > the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this > difference. > > > > Regards, > > S?ma > > > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *White, Phillip > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > This is horribly troubling > > Racist eugenics > > Please stop > > > > Phillip > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave wrote: > > > Dear Prof. David, > > > > Your message reads... > > "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without > a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It > certainly does not belong on this list." > > > > I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you > might catch the sound of my saying. > > > > Point 1 > > If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution > of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great > misunderstanding. > > > > Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd > or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism > in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible > for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. > > Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of > the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of *the > mental socioeconomic formation* between the two. > > Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that *?it > is justified?*. > > Please, try to understand me?. > > ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? > > OR > > ?If it is justified OR not justified? > > is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said > ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above > mentioned ?Level difference?. > > > > Point 2 > > You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in > my previous message. > > If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your > message, I think you pointed out? > > ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have *scientific > understanding* and *scientific basis*.? > > I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched > if they have scientific support as above. I believe? *an outcome of > contemplation* and *a logical compliance* are the supports and > justifications of any *thinker* to present his views. > > If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to > support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his > views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not > claimed the views are *rules* and *laws*. If readers do not agree with > them, the views automatically will become null and void. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: > > I agree > > > > > > > > *Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor* > > *Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of > Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa* > > *email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za > tel: +27 33 260 6163* > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear Mr. Dave: > > > > I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a > shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly > does not belong on this list. > > > > "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were > living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio > economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and > downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned > and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads > of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the > pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status > was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they > were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. > Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give > consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and > structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides > face while they have to interact with each others." > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XSceodIW2xmrZKz8v7Gq_Dkr9Td554ir5v5IfJQjNLcG-Ts55m-SO3jSvJGCYsDLgXkFmw$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XSceodIW2xmrZKz8v7Gq_Dkr9Td554ir5v5IfJQjNLcG-Ts55m-SO3jSvJGCYsDDT3rbfw$ > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave wrote: > > > David? > > Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a > conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it > might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put > three points to express myself. > > *Point 1:* > > When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets > of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my > feelings/sentiments founded on *philosophy of humanity* to work on the > issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if > they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. > > If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be > discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our *sentiments and > emotions on humanitarian concepts* and second leg on the horse of *facts > of* *the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic > formation, *I think he will never succeed in his task. > > *Point 2:* > > Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? > I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on > page 28 as the article is very long. > > [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be > two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic > formations and both????.? > > It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is > mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of > enjoyment through their abilities only.?] > > The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be > overlooked with our *justice and good conscience*. > > *Point 3:* > > As concluded by David, > > ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in > the USA using concepts??? > > I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in > India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might > think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics > remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Anthony-- > > > > I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that > Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are > related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they > are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not > classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by > relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups > that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular > professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in > India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" > in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when > he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into > interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory > and psychology! > > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XSceodIW2xmrZKz8v7Gq_Dkr9Td554ir5v5IfJQjNLcG-Ts55m-SO3jSvJGCYsDLgXkFmw$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XSceodIW2xmrZKz8v7Gq_Dkr9Td554ir5v5IfJQjNLcG-Ts55m-SO3jSvJGCYsDDT3rbfw$ > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is > that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a > nice day, regardless. > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave wrote: > > > > > Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. > > Hi, > > This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for > the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? > just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are > discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for > the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take > its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended > articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or > more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. > Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and > it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. > > I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 > June 2020. > > There are two most probable answers. > > 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism > (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. > > 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests > and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European > people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. > > I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one > out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, > but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. > > It is a mistake to believe that *the attitude of discrimination* and *sickness > of racism *harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above > altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of *mental socio economic > formation status* of two men. There is a basic difference between the two > statuses of *mental socio economic formation *of black people of African > origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass > of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has > fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with > backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of > peoples at different *mental socio economic formation status* also. But, > here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society > with one *constitution* and uniform *rule of laws*. It is absurd to > believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA > (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each > and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present > society of the USA with different levels of *mental socio economic > formation status*. It is really a complicated situation when the society > is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the > society are with varying levels of *mental socio economic formation > status* in the same society. Let me present part of the message of > Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. > > Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. > > ?*I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing > about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black > races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making > voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to > intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there > is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe > will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and > political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do > remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I > as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position > assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that > because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be > denied everything.*? > > > > Here it is between the lines that difference in the *mental socio > economic formation status* could be compensated to some extent, but for > equality people with backward *mental socio economic formation status* > will have to work hard to develop the same. > > I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue > of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject > matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real > cause harbors. > > > > Regards, > > > > Harshad Dave > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Dear Harshad: > > > > I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the > references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. > As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to > shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to > do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and > certainly profitted from the looting politically). > > > > "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, > who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and > Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, > prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which > Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my > hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is > euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and > "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". > > > > Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many > "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter > than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave > owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I > visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from > Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XSceodIW2xmrZKz8v7Gq_Dkr9Td554ir5v5IfJQjNLcG-Ts55m-SO3jSvJGCYsDLgXkFmw$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XSceodIW2xmrZKz8v7Gq_Dkr9Td554ir5v5IfJQjNLcG-Ts55m-SO3jSvJGCYsDDT3rbfw$ > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave wrote: > > > > Dear all there, > > > > We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA > under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on > the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and > discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in > newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We > just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out > burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against > apartheid was the major cry behind them. > > Though there are various vital aspects of the event, *apartheid* remained > prime of them. > > I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. > > > > Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the > USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to > perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the > europeans changed to black like negro. > > I ask my friends, "What will be the status of *apartheid* in this > situation?" > > > > NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views > on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in > the article. > > > > Regards, > > > > Harshad Dave > > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify us > immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. > Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on > behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content > of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may > contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not > necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, > Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are > subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the > contrary. > > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify us > immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. > Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on > behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content > of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may > contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not > necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, > Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are > subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the > contrary. > > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify us > immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. > Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on > behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content > of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may > contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not > necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, > Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are > subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the > contrary. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200627/8b755029/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Sat Jun 27 09:00:58 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 11:00:58 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: Harshad Dave, You claim that you want to talk only of ?differences.? But then you call those differences ?mental levels.? Levels, by definition, are higher and lower. And you write of ?differences in intellectual competence? which, since competence is usually treated as a matter of ?greater? or ?lesser,' certainly suggests that you want to make statements about different *levels* of mental ability. No? So your ?points" center around your claims to be able to know, or infer, which people are mentally superior and which people are mentally inferior. Am I correct? If so, I find your whole approach extremely distasteful. But lets?s look at what people were actually doing in London in the year 1700. This short list of events during that year is from Wikipedia? ? 27 February ? announcement that the island of New Britain is discovered by William Dampier in the western Pacific. ? early March ? William Congreve's comedy The Way of the World is first performed at the New Theatre, Lincoln's Inn Fields. ? 25 March ? Treaty of London signed between France, England and Holland. ? 29 July ? Princess Anne's only surviving child, Prince William, Duke of Gloucester, dies aged eleven leaving the Protestant succession to the Crown in doubt. ? September ? William III travels to meets his cousin Sophia at Het Loo Palace. This is a precursor to the Act of Settlement of the following year that opens the way to the future succession of the House of Hanover. ? 20 November ? announcement that the first boats have reached Leeds from the tideway by way of the Aire and Calder Navigation ? 25 December ? First Christmas hymn authorised to be sung in the Anglican church, "While Shepherds Watched Their Flocks", the words by Nahum Tate having been first published this year, in a supplement to "Tate and Brady". ? 28 December ? Laurence Hyde, 1st Earl of Rochester appointed Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. ? Approximate date ? Jeremiah Clarke writes the Prince of Denmark's March. That is to say, people were writing plays, hymns, and musical compositions. They were announcing voyages of discovery, international alliances, and political appointments. The Bank of England had just been founded. A important synagogue would be built the following year?. What is it about these events that suggests to you that people in London in 1700 were *less intellectually competent* than people in London today? I can see no evidence whatsoever to support such a conclusion. Martin > On Jun 26, 2020, at 11:47 PM, Harshad Dave > wrote: > > This refers to the message of Martin dtd. 26 June 2020 8.30 pm. > > Hi, > > You are right and you have caught my feelings telepathically regarding your first message dtd 25 June 2020, 7.21 pm. Anyway, let us come to the points of discussion. > > Part of the answer is given in my message to Annalisa yesterday (26 June 2020, 4.56 pm). However, I simply and shortly explain my point again. > > The example of man with a gun stands for just to clarify that discoveries and inventions supplement the natural abilities of man to a substantial extent and this supplementing increases on timeline walking towards later (advance) period on the timeline. The questions you raised on this point have answers in the form of my views but it will open a new discussion on different subject matter and I do not want to go away from the prime line of our discussion. > > The prime point you raised in the last paragraph of your message is the correct one. I explain it again here bellow, > > Let us take the example of the city London of the UK. You will agree that in the year 1700 London was there as it is also there in the year 2020. You will agree that socio economic formations of society of London and that of the same in the year 2020 are not equal or same. You will also find a difference in various traits of social constitution, systems and institutions of the respective time. It is not necessary to engage us to determine which one was better out of two. It is just sufficient to determine that they (both) are different. > > If we randomly select five persons from the society of London in the year 1700 and other randomly selected five persons today in 2020, you will find a difference in intellectual competence in various traits. Here, I make you aware that I use the word difference. It is not always true that any comparison between two should necessarily return with a result declaring one of them inferior and other as superior, one as good and other as bad. But it might surely return with an outcome that both are different. Here, in my discussion, I have addressed the integrated concept of these traits overall as ?mental level? and it is linked with the socio economic formation in which the person is living and that is why I address it as ?mental socio economic level?. > > Now, if you (and other friends) agree that there is a difference in mental level, I simply say that? > > When two persons with different mental levels have occasions and events to come into interaction with each other in a society, it generates stress and strain in the functioning of the social system. > > Hope It is now clarified. > > With true regards, > > Harshad Dave. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200627/b0546706/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Sun Jun 28 02:01:02 2020 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 14:31:02 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: Martin, I read your message dtd. Sat, Jun 27, 9:32 PM. Everyone is free to hold his own view on any subject matter. with true regards, Harshad Dave On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 9:32 PM Martin Packer wrote: > Harshad Dave, > > You claim that you want to talk only of ?differences.? But then you call > those differences ?mental levels.? Levels, by definition, are higher and > lower. And you write of ?differences in intellectual competence? which, > since competence is usually treated as a matter of ?greater? or ?lesser,' > certainly suggests that you want to make statements about different > *levels* of mental ability. No? So your ?points" center around your claims > to be able to know, or infer, which people are mentally superior and which > people are mentally inferior. Am I correct? > > If so, I find your whole approach extremely distasteful. But lets?s look > at what people were actually doing in London in the year 1700. This short > list of events during that year is from Wikipedia? > > ? 27 February ? announcement that the island of New Britain is discovered > by William Dampier in the western Pacific. > ? early March ? William Congreve's comedy The Way of the World is first > performed at the New Theatre, Lincoln's Inn Fields. > ? 25 March ? Treaty of London signed between France, England and Holland. > ? 29 July ? Princess Anne's only surviving child, Prince William, Duke of > Gloucester, dies aged eleven leaving the Protestant succession to the Crown > in doubt. > ? September ? William III travels to meets his cousin Sophia at Het Loo > Palace. This is a precursor to the Act of Settlement of the following year > that opens the way to the future succession of the House of Hanover. > ? 20 November ? announcement that the first boats have reached Leeds from > the tideway by way of the Aire and Calder Navigation > ? 25 December ? First Christmas hymn authorised to be sung in the Anglican > church, "While Shepherds Watched Their Flocks", the words by Nahum > Tate having been first published this year, in a supplement to "Tate and > Brady". > ? 28 December ? Laurence Hyde, 1st Earl of Rochester appointed Lord > Lieutenant of Ireland. > ? Approximate date ? Jeremiah Clarke writes the Prince of Denmark's March. > > That is to say, people were writing plays, hymns, and musical > compositions. They were announcing voyages of discovery, international > alliances, and political appointments. The Bank of England had just been > founded. A important synagogue would be built the following year?. > > What is it about these events that suggests to you that people in London > in 1700 were *less intellectually competent* than people in London today? I > can see no evidence whatsoever to support such a conclusion. > > Martin > > > > > On Jun 26, 2020, at 11:47 PM, Harshad Dave wrote: > > This refers to the message of Martin dtd. 26 June 2020 8.30 pm. > > > Hi, > > You are right and you have caught my feelings telepathically regarding > your first message dtd 25 June 2020, 7.21 pm. Anyway, let us come to the > points of discussion. > > Part of the answer is given in my message to Annalisa yesterday (26 June > 2020, 4.56 pm). However, I simply and shortly explain my point again. > > The example of man with a gun stands for just to clarify that discoveries > and inventions supplement the natural abilities of man to a substantial > extent and this supplementing increases on timeline walking towards later > (advance) period on the timeline. The questions you raised on this point > have answers in the form of my views but it will open a new discussion on > different subject matter and I do not want to go away from the prime line > of our discussion. > > The prime point you raised in the last paragraph of your message is the > correct one. I explain it again here bellow, > > Let us take the example of the city London of the UK. You will agree that > in the year 1700 London was there as it is also there in the year 2020. You > will agree that socio economic formations of society of London and that of > the same in the year 2020 are not equal or same. You will also find a > difference in various traits of social constitution, systems and > institutions of the respective time. It is not necessary to engage us to > determine which one was better out of two. It is just sufficient to > determine that they (both) are different. > > If we randomly select five persons from the society of London in the year > 1700 and other randomly selected five persons today in 2020, you will find > a *difference* in intellectual competence in various traits. Here, I make > you aware that I use the word *difference*. It is not always true that > any comparison between two should necessarily return with a result > declaring one of them inferior and other as superior, one as good and other > as bad. But it might surely return with an outcome that both are different. > Here, in my discussion, I have addressed the integrated concept of these > traits overall as ?mental level? and it is linked with the socio economic > formation in which the person is living and that is why I address it as > ?mental socio economic level?. > > Now, if you (and other friends) agree that there is a difference in mental > level, I simply say that? > > When two persons with different mental levels have occasions and events to > come into interaction with each other in a society, it generates stress and > strain in the functioning of the social system. > > Hope It is now clarified. > > With true regards, > > Harshad Dave. > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200628/f539e576/attachment.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Sun Jun 28 08:03:00 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 15:03:00 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Cultural Praxis coffee hours Message-ID: Dear all, As a follow up of very successful online course by K. Guti?rrez and colleagues on CHAT, a series of ?coffee hours? between Mike and others, including students, took place and have been posted on Cultural Praxis? Agora. https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/category/agora/__;!!Mih3wA!TuRodv7MO2TubqFjXCbFxRnUqbjRKWpVllyjh8HPqhYErdAQeYfQllJ6Xr_HMMV3qIaTew$ Future coffee hour series may be arranged. If you have any ideas or proposals, share with us at culturalpraxis@ils.uio.no On behalf of Cultural Praxis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200628/c502c4d0/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Mon Jun 29 02:10:52 2020 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 14:40:52 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] The time to redefine democracy. Message-ID: Hi All, Here I have attached one chit of a jpg image of news in our local daily newspaper named ?Divya Bhaskar?. Divya Bhaskar means ?Devine Sun?. The news appeared on 23rd June 2020 at the last page of the paper. As such the image may not be useful to you as it is in native language, but I translate the news here below, There are three title lines. The first one with smaller fonts and second and third lines are with bigger fonts in the title of the news. The lines are read?, Top Line : ?The pitiful end of extra-marital relations.? Second and third lines of the title are read?.. ?Committing the suicide taking poison by married lovers near Dumad Chowkadi.? [Here Chowkdi means two highway crossings and Dumad is the name of the village near to the crossing, so it is Dumad crossing]. Now translation of the text reads?. ?By crime reporter: Vadodara? ?Married lover birds quaffed poisonous liquid in the vicinity of the temple of Kalikamata (One Goddess) near Dumad crossing near to the city Vadodara. Both of them died in this mishap at Sayaji hospital while the treatment was in progress. The deceased lover (lady) was from Padara village and she was a mother of two kids. The male lover was from Chhani village and he was a father of five kids as per the information from police department. As per information from police, the male Vikram Machhi of age 26 years was living in Chhani village, Vadodara. He fell in love with a lady named Hema Mali of Padara village. Both managed to meet at Domad crossing on Sunday morning and there they quaffed poisonous drug (chemical). They both were shifted to Sayaji hospital for treatment immediately after the happening of the mishap. The lady Hema died at 10 pm in the night. Vikram (the man) died late night at 2 am during the treatment. As per the information from police Vikram was making his living as a casual labor and he owned (was father of) five kids, while as his lover Hema had two kids of her own. Recently Vikram carried her from Padara (her village) to his home, however, his (Vikram?s) inability to maintain her (at his home) due to presence of his wife, both quaffed poison near Dumad crossing.? NB: Yellow part is an advertisement and not concerning to our discussion. Now, there are hundreds of socio philosophical vital aspects of the above mishap-news on which serious debating and exchange of views might be held. However, I just take only one aspect for discussion and the issue is one of the most sensitive issues that we face today in our society. Such mishaps have a link with the issue. I shall adhere to realities and facts of life based on natural laws while discussing this issue. Though I believe that emotions, feelings, humanitarian sentiments, mercy, pity and so many such qualities and characteristics of men/women are strongly attached to our ethical comprehensions and I am not against it. However, when we analyze critical social issues, the knife of realities and facts, and our scrutiny founded on shrewdness of natural laws remain more promising to reveal the most intricate anatomy of the subject issue. So I always suspend those qualities temporarily from my mind while contemplating on such issues. *The Issue of discussion:* If you go through the above news, you will notice that Vikram is a man of 26 years and he has five kids. He falls in love with another married woman with her own two kids. Now it is a fact that the natural system gives full freedom to all creatures to produce kids as maximum as they are able to. However, the natural system (wild life system) has a system that curbs the population strength of any species by destroying a proportionate part of the population strength. Here, our human social system does not have such facility and the natural system does not apply in human society under the protective coverage of discoveries and inventions. We say and confirm that our social system breaths through the lungs of economics. We accept the fact that every increment in population strength raises a burden on the social economic system. We find people in our society, who control the family strength (in numbers) with their wit and wisdom to secure a better living standard for them, at the same time, their control on family strength helps the economy of the society. But, all people are not the same in the same society under one roof. The issue is?.. If a terrorist blasts a bomb in a public place, it harms the society in different ways and his/her act is not acceptable to any society where civilized people rule. If a person produces n numbers of kids without his ability to nourish them and throws them on the society where he lives in, I think, he inflicts more harm than that of the terrorist could inflict. If we manage and administer our social system with a productive system of the 21st century and social ruling infrastructure symbolized by "democracy" of the 18th century, we will only pile up and dump new issues only. Now it is the time we must redefine "democracy". *?To what extent do you agree with me??* Regards, Harshad Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200629/02cd4605/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Mishap on 23rd June 2020.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 636803 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200629/02cd4605/attachment-0001.jpg From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Jun 29 08:42:04 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 15:42:04 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> , Message-ID: Hello Harshad, Martin, and venerable others, It is unfortunate that you are not willing to answer Martin's question. I am wondering if you might consider the possibility that you are unwilling to examine your position. No one is questioning your right to hold your own view, but in pursuit of truth, one must be willing to allow one's views to be challenged. The more you repeat an argument it doesn't make it more true. It doesn't appear you are that willing to stand by your views when you default to "Everyone is free to hold his (and her) own view on any subject matter," thus ending the discussion. That is shallow swimming logic that can be applied to just about any and every argument. If you are going to use certain words to convey an argument, it's important to define them, especially in a philosophical argument. In fact, philosophical discussions at the start involve individuals discussing the meaning of terms. This is so all people understand and agree what the terms mean before continuing on to the actual argument. You have put the cart before the horse. On an academic list serve that discusses topics pertaining to human development, you must at least define your terms. Martin shows he is willing to examine your argument, but you first must define your terms. Are you wanting to discuss this philosophically or not? I am also very curious what your definition of "mental levels" means. It appears from Martin's inquiries show it is a subjective term, and cannot be applied as you have tried, at least not in a scientific or even philosophical manner. If you are just chatting over coffee, then that's another kind of discussion. I suggest that you consider that this might be a reason why there has been such a negative reaction to your postings, and I hope you might consider this *at the very same time* that everyone on this list would also agree with you, even fervently, that everyone has the right to hold any view on any topic. Defining your terms might be something for you to consider. You will last long without mulling over that your position about "mental levels" does not have any supports beneath it. It is a pea under the mattress that will continue to bother you. So why not examine that? I trust that given the character of those on this list, there are people willing to discuss various topics that are interesting to you, but you must also possess the willingness to let your views be challenged and examined. If your position is true, and water tight, then you have nothing to fear. If it is not, then you become a better person by developing more awareness about positions that may not be true and may not actually serve you. In exchange for your examination with others, it is possible you will have traded prior positions (that you may have taken for granted) for ones that are more true for you and thereby serve you better. It is the only reason for partaking in any philosophical discourse. The consequence is to know oneself better than before. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Harshad Dave Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 3:01 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. [EXTERNAL] Martin, I read your message dtd. Sat, Jun 27, 9:32 PM. Everyone is free to hold his own view on any subject matter. with true regards, Harshad Dave On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 9:32 PM Martin Packer > wrote: Harshad Dave, You claim that you want to talk only of ?differences.? But then you call those differences ?mental levels.? Levels, by definition, are higher and lower. And you write of ?differences in intellectual competence? which, since competence is usually treated as a matter of ?greater? or ?lesser,' certainly suggests that you want to make statements about different *levels* of mental ability. No? So your ?points" center around your claims to be able to know, or infer, which people are mentally superior and which people are mentally inferior. Am I correct? If so, I find your whole approach extremely distasteful. But lets?s look at what people were actually doing in London in the year 1700. This short list of events during that year is from Wikipedia? ? 27 February ? announcement that the island of New Britain is discovered by William Dampier in the western Pacific. ? early March ? William Congreve's comedy The Way of the World is first performed at the New Theatre, Lincoln's Inn Fields. ? 25 March ? Treaty of London signed between France, England and Holland. ? 29 July ? Princess Anne's only surviving child, Prince William, Duke of Gloucester, dies aged eleven leaving the Protestant succession to the Crown in doubt. ? September ? William III travels to meets his cousin Sophia at Het Loo Palace. This is a precursor to the Act of Settlement of the following year that opens the way to the future succession of the House of Hanover. ? 20 November ? announcement that the first boats have reached Leeds from the tideway by way of the Aire and Calder Navigation ? 25 December ? First Christmas hymn authorised to be sung in the Anglican church, "While Shepherds Watched Their Flocks", the words by Nahum Tate having been first published this year, in a supplement to "Tate and Brady". ? 28 December ? Laurence Hyde, 1st Earl of Rochester appointed Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. ? Approximate date ? Jeremiah Clarke writes the Prince of Denmark's March. That is to say, people were writing plays, hymns, and musical compositions. They were announcing voyages of discovery, international alliances, and political appointments. The Bank of England had just been founded. A important synagogue would be built the following year?. What is it about these events that suggests to you that people in London in 1700 were *less intellectually competent* than people in London today? I can see no evidence whatsoever to support such a conclusion. Martin On Jun 26, 2020, at 11:47 PM, Harshad Dave > wrote: This refers to the message of Martin dtd. 26 June 2020 8.30 pm. Hi, You are right and you have caught my feelings telepathically regarding your first message dtd 25 June 2020, 7.21 pm. Anyway, let us come to the points of discussion. Part of the answer is given in my message to Annalisa yesterday (26 June 2020, 4.56 pm). However, I simply and shortly explain my point again. The example of man with a gun stands for just to clarify that discoveries and inventions supplement the natural abilities of man to a substantial extent and this supplementing increases on timeline walking towards later (advance) period on the timeline. The questions you raised on this point have answers in the form of my views but it will open a new discussion on different subject matter and I do not want to go away from the prime line of our discussion. The prime point you raised in the last paragraph of your message is the correct one. I explain it again here bellow, Let us take the example of the city London of the UK. You will agree that in the year 1700 London was there as it is also there in the year 2020. You will agree that socio economic formations of society of London and that of the same in the year 2020 are not equal or same. You will also find a difference in various traits of social constitution, systems and institutions of the respective time. It is not necessary to engage us to determine which one was better out of two. It is just sufficient to determine that they (both) are different. If we randomly select five persons from the society of London in the year 1700 and other randomly selected five persons today in 2020, you will find a difference in intellectual competence in various traits. Here, I make you aware that I use the word difference. It is not always true that any comparison between two should necessarily return with a result declaring one of them inferior and other as superior, one as good and other as bad. But it might surely return with an outcome that both are different. Here, in my discussion, I have addressed the integrated concept of these traits overall as ?mental level? and it is linked with the socio economic formation in which the person is living and that is why I address it as ?mental socio economic level?. Now, if you (and other friends) agree that there is a difference in mental level, I simply say that? When two persons with different mental levels have occasions and events to come into interaction with each other in a society, it generates stress and strain in the functioning of the social system. Hope It is now clarified. With true regards, Harshad Dave. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200629/526e155b/attachment.html From simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za Tue Jun 30 03:25:21 2020 From: simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za (Simangele Mayisela) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 10:25:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> , Message-ID: Hi Annalisa and colleagues Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. Your reference to the George Orwell's 1984 is quite fitting in this situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then "gaslighted", as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality - the victim mentality. It is short of saying "do not think" that you are victimised even if there is "victimisation", or you "were" victimised. Perhaps we can accept better with "survivors" but the conditions and the context under which" survivors" continue to survive. Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, "Critical Theory" to name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of "survivorhood", where the conditions for thinking about or "reflecting" surviving are determined and controlled, even those who have power - "scientific or unscientific". There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more interest to me are those who keep trying using "enlightened" ways by intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation - the "doing something about their situation." Using the analogy of a monopoly game Tameka Jones Young https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!VX_uq7D0v43DAvM9nEC46ZStRpXjResRedVQUr9zhmuKYSRyZ34CmtUCYxxDViAr2G5ncg$ (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why "victim mentality" is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors' "survivors" if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her monopoly analogy worth my reflection. I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but "Grievance Studies" and threatening scientific thinking. It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. Regards S'ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hello S'ma and venerable others, I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" around the shoulders, etc. It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as grievous as Holocaust deniers. Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not earned through merit. When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as if they have no right to do so. So who has the right to use this word "victim"? I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk about social Darwinism! I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident. 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical illusion. 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war victims. 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. I did the same for the term survivor: 1. a person or thing that survives. 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks. Synoymns: balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most recent accepted meaning? It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be considered mere leftovers. Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own unearned benefit and advancement? Is that fitness or crime? t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word without these undertowing currents of meaning? We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My ancestors were enslaved by yours." And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in this fashion. Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors enslaved yours." The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice to meet the crime? In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or the promotion of eugenics. I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that now. I see the errors of my ways." It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the past, let's move on." There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. [EXTERNAL] Hi Andy and Alfredo Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about "scientific" knowledge (in this case in relation to "levels" of mental development and "ideology") and James Lindsay's argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call "Grievance studies", that perpetuates "self-pity" and "victim mentality". They further went on to produce fake scientific study "dog rape culture and feminism" known as "hoax science" as evidence of how unscientific "grievance studies" are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions - my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which we have to be concerned about. The reason I brought up Lindsay's argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay's argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a "scientist" holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of "scientific evidence" - who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have "primitive mental functioning" or "unsophisticated" mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a "Trojan Horse", that's according to Bret Weinstein ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of "self-pity", "victim mentality", unsophisticated mental functioning, ... (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed "scientific tools"). My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about "scientific" knowledge". It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire's "Education for the Oppressed" to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for "Education for the Depressed", which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. Regards, Simangele simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: thanks S'ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice-a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as "grievance studies"-is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire's Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of "critical social justice" books, which he defines as "a codified way to indulge people into self pity..."(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire's book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay's says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay's critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay's position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating "level of mental functioning"? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself" (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the "hypothesis" of the scientific question are the "levels" of mental development which are associated to "skin colour", with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the "backwards" economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about "what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?" with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is "scientific", "rigorous scientific" and "scholarship" vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view - if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay's argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!VX_uq7D0v43DAvM9nEC46ZStRpXjResRedVQUr9zhmuKYSRyZ34CmtUCYxxDViAib67yCw$ Regards S'ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of "level" which is crucial to rendering the question "scientific". But couple with level, which could be quantifies as "high" and "low" or "superior" or "inferior" would account for "difference". As much as the question to be asked should be about the "ideological basis" , I think the "hypothesis" is likely to be linked to the "ideolody" as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S'ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear S'ma, I am not sure anyone could provide that "scientific" basis without first explaining what is meant by "level," and most importantly, why and how such explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *ideological* basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not finding the "scientific" basis but the how and why that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Friends! I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the "the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two." Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference. Regards, S'ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. This is horribly troubling Racist eugenics Please stop Phillip Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear Prof. David, Your message reads... "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. Point 1 If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it..... as if it is founded on the color of the skin. Here I disagree and simply say.... Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that "it is justified". Please, try to understand me.... "Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there" OR "If it is justified OR not justified" is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said "filth" does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned "Level difference". Point 2 You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out... "The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis." I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe... an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. Regards, Harshad Dave On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: I agree Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Mr. Dave: I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VX_uq7D0v43DAvM9nEC46ZStRpXjResRedVQUr9zhmuKYSRyZ34CmtUCYxxDViDcNcL8qg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VX_uq7D0v43DAvM9nEC46ZStRpXjResRedVQUr9zhmuKYSRyZ34CmtUCYxxDViAmXpcscg$ On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: David- Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. Point 1: When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. Point 2: Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- "Where the shoe pinches?" I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. [Go to page 28 and it starts - "It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both............." It ends at page no. 35 - ".......... prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only."] The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. Point 3: As concluded by David, "......but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts......" I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by "cast culture" but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of "cast culture". Regards, Harshad Dave On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony-- I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VX_uq7D0v43DAvM9nEC46ZStRpXjResRedVQUr9zhmuKYSRyZ34CmtUCYxxDViDcNcL8qg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VX_uq7D0v43DAvM9nEC46ZStRpXjResRedVQUr9zhmuKYSRyZ34CmtUCYxxDViAmXpcscg$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. Anthony On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. Hi, This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word "apartheid" just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word "apartheid", however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra - The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. There are two most probable answers. 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois - September 18, 1858. "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything." Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. Regards, Harshad Dave On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Dear Harshad: I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VX_uq7D0v43DAvM9nEC46ZStRpXjResRedVQUr9zhmuKYSRyZ34CmtUCYxxDViDcNcL8qg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VX_uq7D0v43DAvM9nEC46ZStRpXjResRedVQUr9zhmuKYSRyZ34CmtUCYxxDViAmXpcscg$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear all there, We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. Regards, Harshad Dave This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200630/9ba0d612/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Tue Jun 30 06:09:00 2020 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 18:39:00 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: Hi all there, This refers to the massage of Annalisa dtd. *Jun 25, 2020, 3:33 AM.* I regret, it took a long time to respond to your above message. I read and studied it many times to plan the profile of my reply in the form of presenting my views. You took five different cultures hypothetically. The presentation elaborated then after concerning different situations touches (directly or indirectly) to so many aspects of discussions and debates. It is neither possible to express them here nor it is advisable to elaborate them here as it might look like a thesis in a discussion. If one tries to reply in short, it is feared it will cause more confusion rather than an understanding. However, I have decided to put my views that are linked with the subject matter that you have raised in your above message. I am sure you will find all answers in the same. Point 1 I present my first observation from your initial information about A, B, C, D and E. The occupants of the societies A and E are the peoples who themselves and their ancestors must have passed through the various tuff struggles and challenges of life. They are the people who learned more from the history of mankind available to them than that of the people of other cultures (B, C and D). The natural abilities of people of A and E enjoy far advanced supplements of discoveries and inventions. Point 2 The development (evolution of human society) of the human social system and its functioning violate many laws of nature prevailed in the wild life system. It was the reason our (human) society had to divorce with the wild life system because a *group living* manages its making living that is founded on a system that violates natural laws, while as the wild life system complies with all the natural laws. These two systems cannot exist under one roof of the wild life system and it resulted into slow departure with a polarization to separate the human social system from the wild life system. The further development of the social system from starting point to till date took a course through a process named *classical* *coordination**. The evolutionary development of human society was not free from the curb and control of nature?s hold. Each and every social development on the timeline through the process of *classical* *coordination* was accompanied by one or more *precondition/s*?. The men/women are supposed to comply with these *preconditions*. If men fail to comply, the wild life law will apply there. [* *the classical coordination* and *precondition/s* ? for detail introduction please read in the attached file]. As per my views and understanding, initially men were living in group habitations only using empirical discoveries and crude inventions, but it was not a human social system. A stage came when the productive system of the group habitation could be updated and still advanced with the help of fresh discoveries and inventions to ensure a lucrative yield of means and consumables for existence and comfortable living. However, it is possible only if the exchange process is adopted and introduced in the social productive system. I believe it was the time a group habitation became a human society when its productive system adopted the exchange process. Now, in 21st century, you will agree that the exchange process is the life line of existence of human society. This exchange process is influenced by and gets regulated by 20 +1 parameters. I request you to read the article on the following link to learn about these parameters. [Link: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://armgpublishing.sumdu.edu.ua/journals/fmir/volume-2-issue-2/article-6/__;!!Mih3wA!X8EL82J-u09DjLBZVApzE1B3cpFg9rkrBL-x_rLBhOq5R2xPWbZRSuEQ0j2mQy3G1BUzog$ ] The 21st parameter is the ?capitalist? parameter and it is attached to the word materialistic wealth. It gets generated through exchange only with multiple breaches in the *preconditions* as explained in the above article. To whom you said Commonwealth is nothing but a well designed system that secures advantageous exchange ratios in favor/benefit of E (in case when E colonized B) and B sustained with disadvantage in the exchange ratio. Here E breaches the *preconditions* in the exchange process with B. [NB: Here I am completely out of those sentiments that teach us? B is exploited and it is inhuman etc. I neither favor nor criticize the act of E as I want to contemplate it impartially.] The design of colonization is nothing but to keep competitors away. I think? basic design of motive behind colonization and Monroe Doctrine does not find much difference. One should have vision and practice to read between the lines. Point 3 ?D is a culture that remains much the same for ten generations, and while ???.. more efficient agriculturally, but not that much has changed technologically.? If I take the last paragraph of your message as mentioned above, I would like to put my views as follow, A habitation or a human society that is not in any type of interaction with other human societies with any reasons, their development will progress at a rate of social evolution only. You mentioned D?s culture that is more or less uniform at the same time if you verify the population growth, it will also be slow and population strength of D will always float between two limits unless and until its social productive system does not get updated through the *classical coordination*. If you verify the death rate of children in the society of D, it will be surely higher than that of A and E. If you verify average age, A and E enjoy higher average age. You will find higher loss of young people in the society of D compared to that of A and E. Only because?.. The supplements to the natural abilities of people of A and E based on discoveries and inventions are far more than that of the people of D. The colonization of B and C and their position then need an elaborative explanation and it is not possible to narrate it here as I believe there must be some space control in any discussion. If I try to explain my views on them in short, I fear it might cause misunderstanding rather than bringing any clarity. NB: I shall put my views on your message dtd. *Mon, Jun 29, 9:14 PM *within a couple of days. With true regards, Harshad Dave. On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 3:57 PM Simangele Mayisela < simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote: > > > Hi Annalisa and colleagues > > > > Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable > manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for > conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum > such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response > below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. > > > > Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this > situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then > ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? > the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are > victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. > Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the > context under which? survivors? continue to survive. > > > > Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to name, > and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the > conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and > controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. > > > > There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of > different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors > have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with > new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving > them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, > including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more > interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by > intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the > oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the > ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly > game Tameka Jones Young > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!X8EL82J-u09DjLBZVApzE1B3cpFg9rkrBL-x_rLBhOq5R2xPWbZRSuEQ0j2mQy1rnxVKzA$ > > (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why > ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who > are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? > ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome > protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for > this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though > her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her > monopoly analogy worth my reflection. > > > > I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural > Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, > I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these > theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development > it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe > one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how > Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in > communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance > Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. > > > > It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can > continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. > What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. > I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious > ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times > pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. > > > > Regards > > S?ma > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar > *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Hello S'ma and venerable others, > > > > I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a > "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" > around the shoulders, etc. > > > > It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as > grievous as Holocaust deniers. > > > > Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended > to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught > and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as > nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the > veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which > in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not > earned through merit. > > > > When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for > someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is > done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as > if they have no right to do so. > > > > So who has the right to use this word "victim"? > > > > > > I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word > "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. > > > > Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate > victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something > unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and > even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful > effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). > > > > Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? > > > > Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of > resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we > consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show > (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult > circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their > wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk > about social Darwinism! > > > > I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about > the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, > neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. > > > > Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: > > 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or > agency: a victim of an automobile accident. > 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions > or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a > victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an > optical illusion. > 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war > victims. > 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. > > When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: > > casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, > gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, > pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, > underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured > party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. > > > > I did the same for the term survivor: > > 1. a person or thing that survives. > 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or > others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. > 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of > opposition, hardship, or setbacks. > > Synoymns: > > balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, > remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts > > The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most > recent accepted meaning? > > > > It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and > survivors to be considered mere leftovers. > > > > Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries > to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what > criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own > unearned benefit and advancement? > > > > Is that fitness or crime? > > > > > > > > t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. > > > > > > What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered > against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word > without these undertowing currents of meaning? > > > > We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or > "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I > am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My > ancestors were enslaved by yours." > > > > And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate > individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in > this fashion. > > > > Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an > oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am > a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors > enslaved yours." > > > > The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and > descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to > say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This > happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." > > > > While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), > who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, > I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those > who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase > like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of > shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just > they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that > Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering > perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. > > > > Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in > past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means > justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la > vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from > "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? > > > > Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice > to meet the crime? > > > > In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, > but now it seems it is too slowly. > > > > This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about > power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems > unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? > > > > Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and > their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or > the promotion of eugenics. > > > > I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of > the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George > W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's > 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the > kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. > > > > Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) > oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection > to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the > injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed > me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that > now. I see the errors of my ways." > > > > It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk > percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the > past, let's move on." > > > > There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, > and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. > > Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? > > > > I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. > Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. > > > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Hi Andy and Alfredo > > > > Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I > referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between > the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in > relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James > Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the > video) is this: > > > > Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with > its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, > Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement > which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and > ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study > ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how > unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are > situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the > system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also > tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces > mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which > we have to be concerned about. > > > > The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am > not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, > I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of > ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an > idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we > aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives > associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with > ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein > bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the > name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological > connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in > specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental > functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected > ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like > a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( > po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ > ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan > Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, > unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying > adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific > tools?). > > > > My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources > that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I > referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? > knowledge?. > > > > It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for > the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook > for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we > take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for > Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical > Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is > generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge > accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to > advance the survival of humanity. > > > > Regards, > > Simangele > > > > > > > > > > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or > "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive > movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a > sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at > stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. > There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called > philanthropy and charity. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss > what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video > critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance > studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this > conversation! > > > > In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so > well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions > Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social > justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into > self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with > Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, > as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether > Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory > scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an > example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * > on behalf of Martin Packer > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Hi Simangele, > > > > How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is > something with which psychology has had some difficulty. > > > > Martin > > > > *"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss > matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my > partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with > the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930)* > > > > > > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela < > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote: > > > > Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that > at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the > ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with > little consideration of the historical oppression that created the > ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what > appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more > about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black > skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. > > > > Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is > ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular > narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking > over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are > Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument > on ideologies. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!X8EL82J-u09DjLBZVApzE1B3cpFg9rkrBL-x_rLBhOq5R2xPWbZRSuEQ0j2mQy3I9qIsHA$ > > > > > Regards > > S?ma > > > > > > > > *From:* Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear Alfredo > > > > Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering > the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies > as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for > ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the > ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to > the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the > scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms > of the ideas. > > > > Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? > > Regards, > > S?ma > > > > > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Alfredo Jornet Gil > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear S?ma, > > > > I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first > explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such > explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across > cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your > curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear > about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate > scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from > history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion > is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its * > *ideological** basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by > posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in > history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences > between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such > cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not > finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being > raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Friends! > > > > I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the > difference in the level of *the mental socioeconomic formation* between > the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this > difference. > > > > Regards, > > S?ma > > > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *White, Phillip > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > This is horribly troubling > > Racist eugenics > > Please stop > > > > Phillip > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave wrote: > > > Dear Prof. David, > > > > Your message reads... > > "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without > a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It > certainly does not belong on this list." > > > > I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you > might catch the sound of my saying. > > > > Point 1 > > If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution > of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great > misunderstanding. > > > > Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd > or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism > in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible > for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. > > Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of > the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of *the > mental socioeconomic formation* between the two. > > Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that *?it > is justified?*. > > Please, try to understand me?. > > ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? > > OR > > ?If it is justified OR not justified? > > is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said > ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above > mentioned ?Level difference?. > > > > Point 2 > > You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in > my previous message. > > If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your > message, I think you pointed out? > > ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have *scientific > understanding* and *scientific basis*.? > > I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched > if they have scientific support as above. I believe? *an outcome of > contemplation* and *a logical compliance* are the supports and > justifications of any *thinker* to present his views. > > If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to > support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his > views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not > claimed the views are *rules* and *laws*. If readers do not agree with > them, the views automatically will become null and void. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: > > I agree > > > > > > > > *Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor* > > *Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of > Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa* > > *email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za > tel: +27 33 260 6163* > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear Mr. Dave: > > > > I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a > shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly > does not belong on this list. > > > > "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were > living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio > economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and > downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned > and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads > of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the > pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status > was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they > were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. > Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give > consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and > structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides > face while they have to interact with each others." > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!X8EL82J-u09DjLBZVApzE1B3cpFg9rkrBL-x_rLBhOq5R2xPWbZRSuEQ0j2mQy0kmZ-i7A$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!X8EL82J-u09DjLBZVApzE1B3cpFg9rkrBL-x_rLBhOq5R2xPWbZRSuEQ0j2mQy07zTFidw$ > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave wrote: > > > David? > > Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a > conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it > might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put > three points to express myself. > > *Point 1:* > > When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets > of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my > feelings/sentiments founded on *philosophy of humanity* to work on the > issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if > they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. > > If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be > discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our *sentiments and > emotions on humanitarian concepts* and second leg on the horse of *facts > of* *the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic > formation, *I think he will never succeed in his task. > > *Point 2:* > > Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? > I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on > page 28 as the article is very long. > > [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be > two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic > formations and both????.? > > It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is > mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of > enjoyment through their abilities only.?] > > The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be > overlooked with our *justice and good conscience*. > > *Point 3:* > > As concluded by David, > > ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in > the USA using concepts??? > > I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in > India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might > think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics > remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Anthony-- > > > > I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that > Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are > related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they > are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not > classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by > relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups > that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular > professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in > India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" > in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when > he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into > interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory > and psychology! > > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!X8EL82J-u09DjLBZVApzE1B3cpFg9rkrBL-x_rLBhOq5R2xPWbZRSuEQ0j2mQy0kmZ-i7A$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!X8EL82J-u09DjLBZVApzE1B3cpFg9rkrBL-x_rLBhOq5R2xPWbZRSuEQ0j2mQy07zTFidw$ > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is > that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a > nice day, regardless. > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave wrote: > > > > > Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. > > Hi, > > This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for > the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? > just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are > discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for > the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take > its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended > articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or > more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. > Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and > it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. > > I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 > June 2020. > > There are two most probable answers. > > 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism > (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. > > 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests > and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European > people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. > > I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one > out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, > but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. > > It is a mistake to believe that * the attitude of discrimination* and *sickness > of racism *harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above > altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of *mental socio economic > formation status* of two men. There is a basic difference between the two > statuses of *mental socio economic formation *of black people of African > origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass > of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has > fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with > backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of > peoples at different *mental socio economic formation status* also. But, > here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society > with one *constitution* and uniform *rule of laws*. It is absurd to > believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA > (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each > and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present > society of the USA with different levels of *mental socio economic > formation status*. It is really a complicated situation when the society > is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the > society are with varying levels of *mental socio economic formation > status* in the same society. Let me present part of the message of > Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. > > Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. > > ?*I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing > about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black > races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making > voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to > intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there > is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe > will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and > political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do > remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I > as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position > assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that > because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be > denied everything.*? > > > > Here it is between the lines that difference in the *mental socio > economic formation status* could be compensated to some extent, but for > equality people with backward *mental socio economic formation status* > will have to work hard to develop the same. > > I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue > of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject > matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real > cause harbors. > > > > Regards, > > > > Harshad Dave > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Dear Harshad: > > > > I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the > references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. > As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to > shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to > do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and > certainly profitted from the looting politically). > > > > "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, > who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and > Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, > prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which > Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my > hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is > euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and > "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". > > > > Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many > "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter > than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave > owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I > visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from > Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!X8EL82J-u09DjLBZVApzE1B3cpFg9rkrBL-x_rLBhOq5R2xPWbZRSuEQ0j2mQy0kmZ-i7A$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!X8EL82J-u09DjLBZVApzE1B3cpFg9rkrBL-x_rLBhOq5R2xPWbZRSuEQ0j2mQy07zTFidw$ > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave wrote: > > > > Dear all there, > > > > We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA > under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on > the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and > discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in > newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We > just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out > burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against > apartheid was the major cry behind them. > > Though there are various vital aspects of the event, *apartheid* remained > prime of them. > > I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. > > > > Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the > USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to > perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the > europeans changed to black like negro. > > I ask my friends, "What will be the status of *apartheid* in this > situation?" > > > > NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views > on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in > the article. > > > > Regards, > > > > Harshad Dave > > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify us > immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. > Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on > behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content > of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may > contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not > necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, > Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are > subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the > contrary. > > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify us > immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. > Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on > behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content > of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may > contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not > necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, > Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are > subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the > contrary. > > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify us > immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. > Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on > behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content > of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may > contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not > necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, > Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are > subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the > contrary. > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify us > immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. > Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on > behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content > of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may > contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not > necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, > Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are > subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the > contrary. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200630/6971e4ac/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Classical coordination and Preconditions.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 14200 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200630/6971e4ac/attachment.bin From dkirsh@lsu.edu Tue Jun 30 06:18:16 2020 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 13:18:16 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> , Message-ID: S'ma et al., The issue of victimhood and "victim mentality" is roiled by crosscurrents of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival-I have been wronged. In a modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able to be aligned with an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that authorizes its significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, is such a structuralist account-or perhaps, more accurately, a structuralist project as it is not clear that critical theorists have arrived at consensus about the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism abandon the structuralist mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock structural perspective that can encompass the variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood is simply my perspective, and the project of establishing its viability is purely a political one. Any of us can experience ourselves as victims, and assert a political claim to that effect. Interestingly, it is the political Right that embodies this poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the political Left that orients itself in structuralism. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Annalisa and colleagues Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. Your reference to the George Orwell's 1984 is quite fitting in this situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then "gaslighted", as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality - the victim mentality. It is short of saying "do not think" that you are victimised even if there is "victimisation", or you "were" victimised. Perhaps we can accept better with "survivors" but the conditions and the context under which" survivors" continue to survive. Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, "Critical Theory" to name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of "survivorhood", where the conditions for thinking about or "reflecting" surviving are determined and controlled, even those who have power - "scientific or unscientific". There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more interest to me are those who keep trying using "enlightened" ways by intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation - the "doing something about their situation." Using the analogy of a monopoly game Tameka Jones Young https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LUzcUP_dw$ (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why "victim mentality" is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors' "survivors" if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her monopoly analogy worth my reflection. I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but "Grievance Studies" and threatening scientific thinking. It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. Regards S'ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hello S'ma and venerable others, I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" around the shoulders, etc. It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as grievous as Holocaust deniers. Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not earned through merit. When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as if they have no right to do so. So who has the right to use this word "victim"? I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk about social Darwinism! I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident. 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical illusion. 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war victims. 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. I did the same for the term survivor: 1. a person or thing that survives. 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks. Synoymns: balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most recent accepted meaning? It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be considered mere leftovers. Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own unearned benefit and advancement? Is that fitness or crime? t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word without these undertowing currents of meaning? We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My ancestors were enslaved by yours." And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in this fashion. Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors enslaved yours." The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice to meet the crime? In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or the promotion of eugenics. I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that now. I see the errors of my ways." It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the past, let's move on." There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. [EXTERNAL] Hi Andy and Alfredo Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about "scientific" knowledge (in this case in relation to "levels" of mental development and "ideology") and James Lindsay's argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call "Grievance studies", that perpetuates "self-pity" and "victim mentality". They further went on to produce fake scientific study "dog rape culture and feminism" known as "hoax science" as evidence of how unscientific "grievance studies" are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions - my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which we have to be concerned about. The reason I brought up Lindsay's argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay's argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a "scientist" holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of "scientific evidence" - who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have "primitive mental functioning" or "unsophisticated" mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a "Trojan Horse", that's according to Bret Weinstein ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of "self-pity", "victim mentality", unsophisticated mental functioning, ... (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed "scientific tools"). My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about "scientific" knowledge". It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire's "Education for the Oppressed" to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for "Education for the Depressed", which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. Regards, Simangele simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: thanks S'ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice-a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as "grievance studies"-is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire's Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of "critical social justice" books, which he defines as "a codified way to indulge people into self pity..."(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire's book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay's says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay's critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay's position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating "level of mental functioning"? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself" (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the "hypothesis" of the scientific question are the "levels" of mental development which are associated to "skin colour", with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the "backwards" economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about "what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?" with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is "scientific", "rigorous scientific" and "scholarship" vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view - if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay's argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LV0KpvGTA$ Regards S'ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of "level" which is crucial to rendering the question "scientific". But couple with level, which could be quantifies as "high" and "low" or "superior" or "inferior" would account for "difference". As much as the question to be asked should be about the "ideological basis" , I think the "hypothesis" is likely to be linked to the "ideolody" as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S'ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear S'ma, I am not sure anyone could provide that "scientific" basis without first explaining what is meant by "level," and most importantly, why and how such explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *ideological* basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not finding the "scientific" basis but the how and why that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Friends! I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the "the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two." Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference. Regards, S'ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. This is horribly troubling Racist eugenics Please stop Phillip Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear Prof. David, Your message reads... "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. Point 1 If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it..... as if it is founded on the color of the skin. Here I disagree and simply say.... Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that "it is justified". Please, try to understand me.... "Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there" OR "If it is justified OR not justified" is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said "filth" does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned "Level difference". Point 2 You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out... "The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis." I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe... an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. Regards, Harshad Dave On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: I agree Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Mr. Dave: I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LWwDW9BYw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LXSin1fIA$ On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: David- Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. Point 1: When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. Point 2: Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- "Where the shoe pinches?" I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. [Go to page 28 and it starts - "It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both............." It ends at page no. 35 - ".......... prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only."] The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. Point 3: As concluded by David, "......but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts......" I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by "cast culture" but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of "cast culture". Regards, Harshad Dave On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony-- I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LWwDW9BYw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LXSin1fIA$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. Anthony On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. Hi, This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word "apartheid" just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word "apartheid", however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra - The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. There are two most probable answers. 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois - September 18, 1858. "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything." Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. Regards, Harshad Dave On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Dear Harshad: I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LWwDW9BYw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LXSin1fIA$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear all there, We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. Regards, Harshad Dave This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200630/7f54ce17/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Tue Jun 30 06:19:58 2020 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 18:49:58 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: Hi all, This is with reference to my last message sent recently. I request you to read "colonization" instead of "Commonwealth" that I used by mistake in over-sight. I regret the inconvenience. Harshad Dave On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:39 PM Harshad Dave wrote: > > Hi all there, > > This refers to the massage of Annalisa dtd. *Jun 25, 2020, 3:33 AM.* > > I regret, it took a long time to respond to your above message. I read and > studied it many times to plan the profile of my reply in the form of > presenting my views. You took five different cultures hypothetically. The > presentation elaborated then after concerning different situations touches > (directly or indirectly) to so many aspects of discussions and debates. It > is neither possible to express them here nor it is advisable to elaborate > them here as it might look like a thesis in a discussion. If one tries to > reply in short, it is feared it will cause more confusion rather than an > understanding. However, I have decided to put my views that are linked with > the subject matter that you have raised in your above message. I am sure > you will find all answers in the same. > > Point 1 > > I present my first observation from your initial information about A, B, > C, D and E. The occupants of the societies A and E are the peoples who > themselves and their ancestors must have passed through the various tuff > struggles and challenges of life. They are the people who learned more from > the history of mankind available to them than that of the people of other > cultures (B, C and D). The natural abilities of people of A and E enjoy far > advanced supplements of discoveries and inventions. > > Point 2 > > The development (evolution of human society) of the human social system > and its functioning violate many laws of nature prevailed in the wild life > system. It was the reason our (human) society had to divorce with the wild > life system because a *group living* manages its making living that is > founded on a system that violates natural laws, while as the wild life > system complies with all the natural laws. These two systems cannot exist > under one roof of the wild life system and it resulted into slow departure > with a polarization to separate the human social system from the wild life > system. > > The further development of the social system from starting point to till > date took a course through a process named *classical* *coordination**. > The evolutionary development of human society was not free from the curb > and control of nature?s hold. Each and every social development on the > timeline through the process of *classical* *coordination* was > accompanied by one or more *precondition/s*?. The men/women are supposed > to comply with these *preconditions*. If men fail to comply, the wild > life law will apply there. [* *the classical coordination* and > *precondition/s* ? for detail introduction please read in the attached > file]. > > As per my views and understanding, initially men were living in group > habitations only using empirical discoveries and crude inventions, but it > was not a human social system. A stage came when the productive system of > the group habitation could be updated and still advanced with the help of > fresh discoveries and inventions to ensure a lucrative yield of means and > consumables for existence and comfortable living. However, it is possible > only if the exchange process is adopted and introduced in the social > productive system. > > I believe it was the time a group habitation became a human society when > its productive system adopted the exchange process. Now, in 21st century, > you will agree that the exchange process is the life line of existence of > human society. This exchange process is influenced by and gets regulated by > 20 +1 parameters. I request you to read the article on the following link > to learn about these parameters. [Link: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://armgpublishing.sumdu.edu.ua/journals/fmir/volume-2-issue-2/article-6/__;!!Mih3wA!RCfxqZqkdiM8Tpqia3d2ZctKjtiFUyLaa3HTkkS8UXwRrp3xfdM6PVNpR64qKfjDElE2yQ$ > ] > > The 21st parameter is the ?capitalist? parameter and it is attached to > the word materialistic wealth. It gets generated through exchange only with > multiple breaches in the *preconditions* as explained in the above > article. To whom you said Commonwealth is nothing but a well designed > system that secures advantageous exchange ratios in favor/benefit of E (in > case when E colonized B) and B sustained with disadvantage in the exchange > ratio. Here E breaches the *preconditions* in the exchange process with > B. [NB: Here I am completely out of those sentiments that teach us? B is > exploited and it is inhuman etc. I neither favor nor criticize the act of E > as I want to contemplate it impartially.] > > The design of colonization is nothing but to keep competitors away. I > think? basic design of motive behind colonization and Monroe Doctrine does > not find much difference. One should have vision and practice to read > between the lines. > > Point 3 > > ?D is a culture that remains much the same for ten generations, and while > ???.. more efficient agriculturally, but not that much has changed > technologically.? > > If I take the last paragraph of your message as mentioned above, I would > like to put my views as follow, > > A habitation or a human society that is not in any type of interaction > with other human societies with any reasons, their development will > progress at a rate of social evolution only. You mentioned D?s culture that > is more or less uniform at the same time if you verify the population > growth, it will also be slow and population strength of D will always float > between two limits unless and until its social productive system does not > get updated through the *classical coordination*. If you verify the death > rate of children in the society of D, it will be surely higher than that of > A and E. If you verify average age, A and E enjoy higher average age. You > will find higher loss of young people in the society of D compared to that > of A and E. Only because?.. The supplements to the natural abilities of > people of A and E based on discoveries and inventions are far more than > that of the people of D. > > The colonization of B and C and their position then need an elaborative > explanation and it is not possible to narrate it here as I believe there > must be some space control in any discussion. If I try to explain my views > on them in short, I fear it might cause misunderstanding rather than > bringing any clarity. > > NB: I shall put my views on your message dtd. *Mon, Jun 29, 9:14 PM *within > a couple of days. > > With true regards, > Harshad Dave. > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 3:57 PM Simangele Mayisela < > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote: > >> >> >> Hi Annalisa and colleagues >> >> >> >> Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable >> manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for >> conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum >> such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response >> below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. >> >> >> >> Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this >> situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then >> ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? >> the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are >> victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. >> Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the >> context under which? survivors? continue to survive. >> >> >> >> Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to >> name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the >> conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and >> controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. >> >> >> >> There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of >> different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors >> have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with >> new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving >> them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, >> including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more >> interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by >> intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the >> oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the >> ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly >> game Tameka Jones Young >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!RCfxqZqkdiM8Tpqia3d2ZctKjtiFUyLaa3HTkkS8UXwRrp3xfdM6PVNpR64qKfguMO_2wg$ >> >> (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why >> ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who >> are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? >> ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome >> protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for >> this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though >> her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her >> monopoly analogy worth my reflection. >> >> >> >> I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural >> Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, >> I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these >> theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development >> it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe >> one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how >> Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in >> communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance >> Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. >> >> >> >> It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections >> can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller >> groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our >> learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and >> unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I >> at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> S?ma >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *On Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar >> *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >> >> >> >> Hello S'ma and venerable others, >> >> >> >> I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a >> "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" >> around the shoulders, etc. >> >> >> >> It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as >> grievous as Holocaust deniers. >> >> >> >> Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended >> to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught >> and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as >> nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the >> veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which >> in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not >> earned through merit. >> >> >> >> When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for >> someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is >> done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as >> if they have no right to do so. >> >> >> >> So who has the right to use this word "victim"? >> >> >> >> >> >> I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word >> "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. >> >> >> >> Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate >> victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something >> unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and >> even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful >> effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). >> >> >> >> Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? >> >> >> >> Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations >> of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we >> consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show >> (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult >> circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their >> wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk >> about social Darwinism! >> >> >> >> I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about >> the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, >> neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. >> >> >> >> Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: >> >> 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or >> agency: a victim of an automobile accident. >> 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions >> or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a >> victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an >> optical illusion. >> 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war >> victims. >> 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. >> >> When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: >> >> casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, >> gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, >> pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, >> underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured >> party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. >> >> >> >> I did the same for the term survivor: >> >> 1. a person or thing that survives. >> 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants >> or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. >> 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of >> opposition, hardship, or setbacks. >> >> Synoymns: >> >> balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, >> remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts >> >> The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most >> recent accepted meaning? >> >> >> >> It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and >> survivors to be considered mere leftovers. >> >> >> >> Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible >> batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't >> that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for >> their own unearned benefit and advancement? >> >> >> >> Is that fitness or crime? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. >> >> >> >> >> >> What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered >> against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word >> without these undertowing currents of meaning? >> >> >> >> We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or >> "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I >> am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My >> ancestors were enslaved by yours." >> >> >> >> And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate >> individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in >> this fashion. >> >> >> >> Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an >> oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am >> a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors >> enslaved yours." >> >> >> >> The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and >> descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to >> say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This >> happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." >> >> >> >> While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), >> who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, >> I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those >> who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase >> like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of >> shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just >> they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that >> Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering >> perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. >> >> >> >> Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in >> past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means >> justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la >> vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from >> "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? >> >> >> >> Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of >> justice to meet the crime? >> >> >> >> In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, >> but now it seems it is too slowly. >> >> >> >> This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about >> power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems >> unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? >> >> >> >> Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and >> their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or >> the promotion of eugenics. >> >> >> >> I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of >> the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George >> W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's >> 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the >> kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. >> >> >> >> Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) >> oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection >> to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the >> injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed >> me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that >> now. I see the errors of my ways." >> >> >> >> It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk >> percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the >> past, let's move on." >> >> >> >> There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, >> and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. >> >> Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? >> >> >> >> I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best >> attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there >> above. >> >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Simangele Mayisela >> *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >> >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> >> Hi Andy and Alfredo >> >> >> >> Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video >> I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between >> the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in >> relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James >> Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the >> video) is this: >> >> >> >> Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with >> its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, >> Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement >> which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and >> ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study >> ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how >> unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are >> situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the >> system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also >> tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces >> mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which >> we have to be concerned about. >> >> >> >> The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am >> not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, >> I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of >> ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an >> idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we >> aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives >> associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with >> ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein >> bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the >> name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological >> connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in >> specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental >> functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected >> ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like >> a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( >> po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ >> ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan >> Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, >> unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying >> adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific >> tools?). >> >> >> >> My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources >> that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I >> referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? >> knowledge?. >> >> >> >> It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for >> the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook >> for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we >> take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for >> Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical >> Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is >> generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge >> accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to >> advance the survival of humanity. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Simangele >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *On Behalf Of *Andy Blunden >> *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 >> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >> >> >> >> Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or >> "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive >> movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a >> sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at >> stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. >> There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called >> philanthropy and charity. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >> >> thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss >> what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video >> critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance >> studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this >> conversation! >> >> >> >> In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not >> so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions >> Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social >> justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into >> self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with >> Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, >> as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether >> Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory >> scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an >> example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? >> >> >> >> Alfredo >> >> *From: * >> on behalf of Martin Packer >> >> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> >> *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 >> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> >> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >> >> >> >> Hi Simangele, >> >> >> >> How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is >> something with which psychology has had some difficulty. >> >> >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> *"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss >> matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my >> partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with >> the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930)* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela < >> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote: >> >> >> >> Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that >> at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the >> ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with >> little consideration of the historical oppression that created the >> ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what >> appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more >> about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black >> skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. >> >> >> >> Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what >> is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular >> narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking >> over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are >> Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument >> on ideologies. >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!RCfxqZqkdiM8Tpqia3d2ZctKjtiFUyLaa3HTkkS8UXwRrp3xfdM6PVNpR64qKfgyYEuaCw$ >> >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> S?ma >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Simangele Mayisela >> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >> >> >> >> Dear Alfredo >> >> >> >> Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to >> rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be >> quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account >> for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the >> ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to >> the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the >> scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms >> of the ideas. >> >> >> >> Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? >> >> Regards, >> >> S?ma >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *On Behalf Of *Alfredo Jornet Gil >> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >> >> >> >> Dear S?ma, >> >> >> >> I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first >> explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such >> explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across >> cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your >> curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear >> about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate >> scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from >> history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion >> is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its * >> *ideological** basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by >> posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in >> history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences >> between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such >> cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not >> finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being >> raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? >> >> >> >> Alfredo >> >> *From: * on behalf of Simangele >> Mayisela >> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 >> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >> >> >> >> Friends! >> >> >> >> I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the >> difference in the level of *the mental socioeconomic formation* between >> the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this >> difference. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> S?ma >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *On Behalf Of *White, Phillip >> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >> >> >> >> This is horribly troubling >> >> Racist eugenics >> >> Please stop >> >> >> >> Phillip >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> >> On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave wrote: >> >> >> Dear Prof. David, >> >> >> >> Your message reads... >> >> "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without >> a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It >> certainly does not belong on this list." >> >> >> >> I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you >> might catch the sound of my saying. >> >> >> >> Point 1 >> >> If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a >> distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with >> a great misunderstanding. >> >> >> >> Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of >> Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of >> racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is >> responsible for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. >> >> Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color >> of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of *the >> mental socioeconomic formation* between the two. >> >> Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that *?it >> is justified?*. >> >> Please, try to understand me?. >> >> ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? >> >> OR >> >> ?If it is justified OR not justified? >> >> is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said >> ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above >> mentioned ?Level difference?. >> >> >> >> Point 2 >> >> You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in >> my previous message. >> >> If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your >> message, I think you pointed out? >> >> ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have *scientific >> understanding* and *scientific basis*.? >> >> I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never >> searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe? *an >> outcome of contemplation* and *a logical compliance* are the supports >> and justifications of any *thinker* to present his views. >> >> If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to >> support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his >> views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not >> claimed the views are *rules* and *laws*. If readers do not agree with >> them, the views automatically will become null and void. >> >> Regards, >> >> Harshad Dave >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet >> wrote: >> >> I agree >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor* >> >> *Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of >> Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa* >> >> *email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za >> tel: +27 33 260 6163* >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of David Kellogg >> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >> >> >> >> Dear Mr. Dave: >> >> >> >> I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without >> a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It >> certainly does not belong on this list. >> >> >> >> "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were >> living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio >> economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and >> downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned >> and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads >> of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the >> pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status >> was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they >> were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. >> Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give >> consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and >> structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides >> face while they have to interact with each others." >> >> >> David Kellogg >> >> Sangmyung University >> >> >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RCfxqZqkdiM8Tpqia3d2ZctKjtiFUyLaa3HTkkS8UXwRrp3xfdM6PVNpR64qKfjDeqqQRQ$ >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RCfxqZqkdiM8Tpqia3d2ZctKjtiFUyLaa3HTkkS8UXwRrp3xfdM6PVNpR64qKfhMUhnMIQ$ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave wrote: >> >> >> David? >> >> Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a >> conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it >> might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put >> three points to express myself. >> >> *Point 1:* >> >> When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two >> sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my >> feelings/sentiments founded on *philosophy of humanity* to work on the >> issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if >> they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. >> >> If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be >> discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our *sentiments and >> emotions on humanitarian concepts* and second leg on the horse of *facts >> of* *the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic >> formation, *I think he will never succeed in his task. >> >> *Point 2:* >> >> Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? >> I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on >> page 28 as the article is very long. >> >> [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be >> two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic >> formations and both????.? >> >> It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is >> mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of >> enjoyment through their abilities only.?] >> >> The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be >> overlooked with our *justice and good conscience*. >> >> *Point 3:* >> >> As concluded by David, >> >> ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in >> the USA using concepts??? >> >> I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in >> India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might >> think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics >> remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. >> >> Regards, >> >> Harshad Dave >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >> Anthony-- >> >> >> >> I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that >> Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are >> related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they >> are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not >> classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by >> relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups >> that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular >> professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in >> India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" >> in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when >> he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into >> interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory >> and psychology! >> >> >> >> >> David Kellogg >> >> Sangmyung University >> >> >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RCfxqZqkdiM8Tpqia3d2ZctKjtiFUyLaa3HTkkS8UXwRrp3xfdM6PVNpR64qKfjDeqqQRQ$ >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RCfxqZqkdiM8Tpqia3d2ZctKjtiFUyLaa3HTkkS8UXwRrp3xfdM6PVNpR64qKfhMUhnMIQ$ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >> Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense >> is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have >> a nice day, regardless. >> >> >> >> Anthony >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. >> >> Hi, >> >> This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for >> the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? >> just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are >> discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for >> the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take >> its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended >> articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or >> more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. >> Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and >> it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. >> >> I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 >> June 2020. >> >> There are two most probable answers. >> >> 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of >> racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. >> >> 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests >> and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European >> people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. >> >> I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one >> out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, >> but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. >> >> It is a mistake to believe that * the attitude of discrimination* and *sickness >> of racism *harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above >> altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of *mental socio economic >> formation status* of two men. There is a basic difference between the >> two statuses of *mental socio economic formation *of black people of >> African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that >> a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic >> formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a >> society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two >> classes of peoples at different *mental socio economic formation status* >> also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the >> same society with one *constitution* and uniform *rule of laws*. It is >> absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society >> of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and >> uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various >> people in the present society of the USA with different levels of *mental >> socio economic formation status*. It is really a complicated situation >> when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and >> members of the society are with varying levels of *mental socio economic >> formation status* in the same society. Let me present part of the >> message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. >> >> Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. >> >> ?*I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of >> bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white >> and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of >> making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, >> nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this >> that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which >> I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of >> social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while >> they do remain together there must be the position of superior and >> inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior >> position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not >> perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the >> negro should be denied everything.*? >> >> >> >> Here it is between the lines that difference in the *mental socio >> economic formation status* could be compensated to some extent, but for >> equality people with backward *mental socio economic formation status* >> will have to work hard to develop the same. >> >> I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue >> of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject >> matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real >> cause harbors. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Harshad Dave >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >> Dear Harshad: >> >> >> >> I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the >> references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. >> As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to >> shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to >> do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and >> certainly profitted from the looting politically). >> >> >> >> "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, >> who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and >> Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, >> prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which >> Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my >> hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is >> euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and >> "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". >> >> >> >> Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. >> Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are >> lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of >> slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time >> I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong >> from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of >> class. >> >> >> David Kellogg >> >> Sangmyung University >> >> >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RCfxqZqkdiM8Tpqia3d2ZctKjtiFUyLaa3HTkkS8UXwRrp3xfdM6PVNpR64qKfjDeqqQRQ$ >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RCfxqZqkdiM8Tpqia3d2ZctKjtiFUyLaa3HTkkS8UXwRrp3xfdM6PVNpR64qKfhMUhnMIQ$ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear all there, >> >> >> >> We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA >> under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on >> the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and >> discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in >> newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We >> just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out >> burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against >> apartheid was the major cry behind them. >> >> Though there are various vital aspects of the event, *apartheid* >> remained prime of them. >> >> I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. >> >> >> >> Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of >> the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to >> perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the >> europeans changed to black like negro. >> >> I ask my friends, "What will be the status of *apartheid* in this >> situation?" >> >> >> >> NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your >> views on the above question will help me to write my views with more >> clarity in the article. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Harshad Dave >> >> >> >> This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is >> confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please >> notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or >> disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. >> Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on >> behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content >> of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may >> contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not >> necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, >> Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are >> subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the >> contrary. >> >> >> >> This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is >> confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please >> notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or >> disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. >> Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on >> behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content >> of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may >> contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not >> necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, >> Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are >> subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the >> contrary. >> >> >> >> This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is >> confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please >> notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or >> disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. >> Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on >> behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content >> of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may >> contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not >> necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, >> Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are >> subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the >> contrary. >> >> >> This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is >> confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please >> notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or >> disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. >> Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on >> behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content >> of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may >> contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not >> necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, >> Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are >> subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the >> contrary. >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200630/f63b8d4d/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Jun 30 13:06:52 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 14:06:52 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: <4BC923D9-084D-41C1-B56C-79FF3B8794F8@gmail.com> Simangele, David K. Annalisa, et. al., Thank you very much for the link to Tameka Jones Young. Amazing how both articulate and passionate Tameka is, which makes her analysis of the why of protests, rioting and looting so compelling. I confess she puts my take on Glen Lowry and John McWhorter in a completely different light. My last turn on the chat complained about the rioting, breaking windows in Albuquerque. I see and feel that differently now, thanks to Tameka. Descartes? Error and the Spinoza turn in the cultural psychology of the chat is implied loud and strong in Tameka?s turn. Would one call the synthesis of cognition and affect structuralist? Postmodernist perspective taking lacks Tameka?s juice. Is Tameka a critical theorist here? From an aesthetic perspective, I can imagine Tameka rapping her whole message and making her prose video for the benefit of my slow ears. Henry > On Jun 30, 2020, at 7:18 AM, David H Kirshner wrote: > > S?ma et al., > > The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by crosscurrents of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have been wronged. In a modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able to be aligned with an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that authorizes its significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, is such a structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a structuralist project as it is not clear that critical theorists have arrived at consensus about the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism abandon the structuralist mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock structural perspective that can encompass the variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood is simply my perspective, and the project of establishing its viability is purely a political one. Any of us can experience ourselves as victims, and assert a political claim to that effect. Interestingly, it is the political Right that embodies this poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the political Left that orients itself in structuralism. > > David > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > Hi Annalisa and colleagues > > Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. > > Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the context under which? survivors? continue to survive. > > Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. > > There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly game Tameka Jones Young https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!RUKPrOG0y_gcwNRhIZRe9mmHx1ZLmo13vM9c6zr8Jcx6s1k_t05UeG-FrfxS807t45kaBA$ (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her monopoly analogy worth my reflection. > > I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. > > It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. > > > Regards > S?ma > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Hello S'ma and venerable others, > > I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" around the shoulders, etc. > > It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as grievous as Holocaust deniers. > > Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not earned through merit. > > When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as if they have no right to do so. > > So who has the right to use this word "victim"? > > > I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. > > Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). > > Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? > > Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk about social Darwinism! > > I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. > > Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: > a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident. > a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical illusion. > a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war victims. > a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. > When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: > casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. > > I did the same for the term survivor: > a person or thing that survives. > Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. > a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks. > Synoymns: > balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts > > The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most recent accepted meaning? > > It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be considered mere leftovers. > > Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own unearned benefit and advancement? > > Is that fitness or crime? > > > > t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. > > > What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word without these undertowing currents of meaning? > > We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My ancestors were enslaved by yours." > > And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in this fashion. > > Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors enslaved yours." > > The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." > > While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. > > Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? > > Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice to meet the crime? > > In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. > > This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? > > Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or the promotion of eugenics. > > I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. > > Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that now. I see the errors of my ways." > > It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the past, let's move on." > > There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. > Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? > > I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. > > Kind regards, > Annalisa > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > [EXTERNAL] > Hi Andy and Alfredo > > Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: > > Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which we have to be concerned about. > > The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific tools?). > > My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. > > It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. > > Regards, > Simangele > > > > > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. > > Andy > > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! > > In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? > > Alfredo > From: on behalf of Martin Packer > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Hi Simangele, > > How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. > > Martin > > "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) > > > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: > > Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. > > Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!RUKPrOG0y_gcwNRhIZRe9mmHx1ZLmo13vM9c6zr8Jcx6s1k_t05UeG-FrfxS807B2ofbHw$ > > Regards > S?ma > > > > From: Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Dear Alfredo > > Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. > > Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? > Regards, > S?ma > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Dear S?ma, > > I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *ideological* basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? > > Alfredo > From: > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Friends! > > I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference. > > Regards, > S?ma > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of White, Phillip > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > This is horribly troubling > Racist eugenics > Please stop > > Phillip > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: > > > Dear Prof. David, > > Your message reads... > "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." > > I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. > > Point 1 > If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. > > Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. > Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. > Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that ?it is justified?. > Please, try to understand me?. > ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? > OR > ?If it is justified OR not justified? > is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned ?Level difference?. > > Point 2 > You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. > If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? > ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis.? > I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe? an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. > If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. > Regards, > Harshad Dave > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: > I agree > > > > Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor > Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa > email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Dear Mr. Dave: > > I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. > > "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RUKPrOG0y_gcwNRhIZRe9mmHx1ZLmo13vM9c6zr8Jcx6s1k_t05UeG-FrfxS8062qVcpIw$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RUKPrOG0y_gcwNRhIZRe9mmHx1ZLmo13vM9c6zr8Jcx6s1k_t05UeG-FrfxS804E4UNhQQ$ > > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: > > David? > > Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. > > Point 1: > > When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. > > If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. > > Point 2: > > Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. > > [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both????.? > > It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.?] > > The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. > > Point 3: > > As concluded by David, > > ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts??? > > I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: > Anthony-- > > I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RUKPrOG0y_gcwNRhIZRe9mmHx1ZLmo13vM9c6zr8Jcx6s1k_t05UeG-FrfxS8062qVcpIw$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RUKPrOG0y_gcwNRhIZRe9mmHx1ZLmo13vM9c6zr8Jcx6s1k_t05UeG-FrfxS804E4UNhQQ$ > > > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. > > Anthony > > > > On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: > > > Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. > > Hi, > > This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. > > I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. > > There are two most probable answers. > > 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. > 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. > > I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. > > It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitutionand uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21stcentury) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. > > Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. > ?I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.? > > Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. > I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > Dear Harshad: > > I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). > > "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". > > Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RUKPrOG0y_gcwNRhIZRe9mmHx1ZLmo13vM9c6zr8Jcx6s1k_t05UeG-FrfxS8062qVcpIw$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RUKPrOG0y_gcwNRhIZRe9mmHx1ZLmo13vM9c6zr8Jcx6s1k_t05UeG-FrfxS804E4UNhQQ$ > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: > > Dear all there, > > We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. > Though there are various vital aspects of the event,apartheid remained prime of them. > I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. > > Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. > I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" > > NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200630/9fe48e92/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Jun 30 16:58:57 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 16:58:57 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism one way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner wrote: > S?ma et al., > > > > The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by crosscurrents > of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and poststructuralist > thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have been wronged. In a > modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able to be aligned with > an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that authorizes its > significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, is such a > structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a structuralist project > as it is not clear that critical theorists have arrived at consensus about > the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism abandon the structuralist > mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock structural perspective that can > encompass the variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood > is simply my perspective, and the project of establishing its viability is > purely a political one. Any of us can experience ourselves as victims, and > assert a political claim to that effect. Interestingly, it is the political > Right that embodies this poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the > political Left that orients itself in structuralism. > > > > David > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > > > Hi Annalisa and colleagues > > > > Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable > manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for > conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum > such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response > below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. > > > > Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this > situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then > ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? > the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are > victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. > Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the > context under which? survivors? continue to survive. > > > > Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to name, > and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the > conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and > controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. > > > > There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of > different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors > have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with > new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving > them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, > including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more > interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by > intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the > oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the > ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly > game Tameka Jones Young > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!QCD7ed0aCRAAlp7GdBrl0meYtbgs9bxM8e7Zg-RtwtTHcq2MHVUupotmjSed87wBAgGZtg$ > > (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why > ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who > are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? > ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome > protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for > this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though > her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her > monopoly analogy worth my reflection. > > > > I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural > Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, > I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these > theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development > it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe > one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how > Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in > communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance > Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. > > > > It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can > continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. > What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. > I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious > ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times > pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. > > > > > > Regards > > S?ma > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar > *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Hello S'ma and venerable others, > > > > I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a > "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" > around the shoulders, etc. > > > > It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as > grievous as Holocaust deniers. > > > > Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended > to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught > and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as > nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the > veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which > in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not > earned through merit. > > > > When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for > someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is > done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as > if they have no right to do so. > > > > So who has the right to use this word "victim"? > > > > > > I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word > "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. > > > > Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate > victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something > unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and > even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful > effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). > > > > Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? > > > > Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of > resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we > consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show > (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult > circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their > wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk > about social Darwinism! > > > > I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about > the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, > neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. > > > > Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: > > 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or > agency: a victim of an automobile accident. > 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions > or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a > victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an > optical illusion. > 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war > victims. > 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. > > When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: > > casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, > gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, > pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, > underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured > party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. > > > > I did the same for the term survivor: > > 1. a person or thing that survives. > 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or > others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. > 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of > opposition, hardship, or setbacks. > > Synoymns: > > balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, > remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts > > The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most > recent accepted meaning? > > > > It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and > survivors to be considered mere leftovers. > > > > Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries > to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what > criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own > unearned benefit and advancement? > > > > Is that fitness or crime? > > > > > > > > t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. > > > > > > What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered > against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word > without these undertowing currents of meaning? > > > > We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or > "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I > am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My > ancestors were enslaved by yours." > > > > And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate > individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in > this fashion. > > > > Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an > oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am > a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors > enslaved yours." > > > > The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and > descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to > say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This > happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." > > > > While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), > who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, > I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those > who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase > like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of > shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just > they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that > Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering > perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. > > > > Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in > past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means > justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la > vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from > "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? > > > > Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice > to meet the crime? > > > > In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, > but now it seems it is too slowly. > > > > This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about > power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems > unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? > > > > Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and > their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or > the promotion of eugenics. > > > > I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of > the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George > W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's > 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the > kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. > > > > Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) > oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection > to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the > injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed > me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that > now. I see the errors of my ways." > > > > It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk > percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the > past, let's move on." > > > > There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, > and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. > > Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? > > > > I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. > Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. > > > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Hi Andy and Alfredo > > > > Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I > referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between > the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in > relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James > Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the > video) is this: > > > > Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with > its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, > Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement > which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and > ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study > ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how > unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are > situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the > system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also > tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces > mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which > we have to be concerned about. > > > > The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am > not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, > I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of > ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an > idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we > aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives > associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with > ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein > bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the > name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological > connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in > specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental > functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected > ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like > a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( > po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ > ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan > Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, > unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying > adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific > tools?). > > > > My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources > that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I > referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? > knowledge?. > > > > It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for > the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook > for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we > take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for > Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical > Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is > generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge > accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to > advance the survival of humanity. > > > > Regards, > > Simangele > > > > > > > > > > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or > "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive > movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a > sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at > stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. > There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called > philanthropy and charity. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss > what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video > critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance > studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this > conversation! > > > > In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so > well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions > Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social > justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into > self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with > Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, > as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether > Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory > scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an > example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * > on behalf of Martin Packer > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Hi Simangele, > > > > How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is > something with which psychology has had some difficulty. > > > > Martin > > > > *"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss > matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my > partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with > the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930)* > > > > > > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela < > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote: > > > > Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that > at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the > ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with > little consideration of the historical oppression that created the > ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what > appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more > about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black > skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. > > > > Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is > ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular > narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking > over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are > Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument > on ideologies. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!QCD7ed0aCRAAlp7GdBrl0meYtbgs9bxM8e7Zg-RtwtTHcq2MHVUupotmjSed87wS4Eyeaw$ > > > > > Regards > > S?ma > > > > > > > > *From:* Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear Alfredo > > > > Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering > the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies > as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for > ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the > ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to > the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the > scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms > of the ideas. > > > > Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? > > Regards, > > S?ma > > > > > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Alfredo Jornet Gil > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear S?ma, > > > > I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first > explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such > explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across > cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your > curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear > about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate > scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from > history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion > is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its * > *ideological** basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by > posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in > history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences > between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such > cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not > finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being > raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Friends! > > > > I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the > difference in the level of *the mental socioeconomic formation* between > the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this > difference. > > > > Regards, > > S?ma > > > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *White, Phillip > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > This is horribly troubling > > Racist eugenics > > Please stop > > > > Phillip > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave wrote: > > > Dear Prof. David, > > > > Your message reads... > > "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without > a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It > certainly does not belong on this list." > > > > I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you > might catch the sound of my saying. > > > > Point 1 > > If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution > of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great > misunderstanding. > > > > Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd > or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism > in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible > for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. > > Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of > the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of *the > mental socioeconomic formation* between the two. > > Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that *?it > is justified?*. > > Please, try to understand me?. > > ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? > > OR > > ?If it is justified OR not justified? > > is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said > ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above > mentioned ?Level difference?. > > > > Point 2 > > You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in > my previous message. > > If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your > message, I think you pointed out? > > ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have *scientific > understanding* and *scientific basis*.? > > I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched > if they have scientific support as above. I believe? *an outcome of > contemplation* and *a logical compliance* are the supports and > justifications of any *thinker* to present his views. > > If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to > support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his > views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not > claimed the views are *rules* and *laws*. If readers do not agree with > them, the views automatically will become null and void. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: > > I agree > > > > > > > > *Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor* > > *Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of > Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa* > > *email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za > tel: +27 33 260 6163* > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear Mr. Dave: > > > > I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a > shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly > does not belong on this list. > > > > "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were > living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio > economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and > downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned > and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads > of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the > pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status > was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they > were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. > Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give > consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and > structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides > face while they have to interact with each others." > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QCD7ed0aCRAAlp7GdBrl0meYtbgs9bxM8e7Zg-RtwtTHcq2MHVUupotmjSed87xvV-REuQ$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QCD7ed0aCRAAlp7GdBrl0meYtbgs9bxM8e7Zg-RtwtTHcq2MHVUupotmjSed87zIZcXP0Q$ > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave wrote: > > > David? > > Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a > conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it > might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put > three points to express myself. > > *Point 1:* > > When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets > of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my > feelings/sentiments founded on *philosophy of humanity* to work on the > issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if > they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. > > If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be > discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our *sentiments and > emotions on humanitarian concepts* and second leg on the horse of *facts > of* *the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic > formation, *I think he will never succeed in his task. > > *Point 2:* > > Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? > I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on > page 28 as the article is very long. > > [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be > two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic > formations and both????.? > > It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is > mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of > enjoyment through their abilities only.?] > > The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be > overlooked with our *justice and good conscience*. > > *Point 3:* > > As concluded by David, > > ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in > the USA using concepts??? > > I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in > India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might > think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics > remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Anthony-- > > > > I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that > Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are > related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they > are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not > classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by > relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups > that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular > professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in > India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" > in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when > he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into > interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory > and psychology! > > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QCD7ed0aCRAAlp7GdBrl0meYtbgs9bxM8e7Zg-RtwtTHcq2MHVUupotmjSed87xvV-REuQ$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QCD7ed0aCRAAlp7GdBrl0meYtbgs9bxM8e7Zg-RtwtTHcq2MHVUupotmjSed87zIZcXP0Q$ > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: > > Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is > that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a > nice day, regardless. > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave wrote: > > > > > Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. > > Hi, > > This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for > the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? > just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are > discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for > the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take > its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended > articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or > more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. > Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and > it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. > > I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 > June 2020. > > There are two most probable answers. > > 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism > (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. > > 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests > and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European > people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. > > I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one > out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, > but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. > > It is a mistake to believe that *the attitude of discrimination* and *sickness > of racism *harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above > altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of *mental socio economic > formation status* of two men. There is a basic difference between the two > statuses of *mental socio economic formation *of black people of African > origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass > of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has > fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with > backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of > peoples at different *mental socio economic formation status* also. But, > here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society > with one *constitution* and uniform *rule of laws*. It is absurd to > believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA > (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each > and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present > society of the USA with different levels of *mental socio economic > formation status*. It is really a complicated situation when the society > is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the > society are with varying levels of *mental socio economic formation > status* in the same society. Let me present part of the message of > Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. > > Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. > > ?*I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing > about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black > races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making > voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to > intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there > is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe > will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and > political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do > remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I > as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position > assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that > because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be > denied everything.*? > > > > Here it is between the lines that difference in the *mental socio > economic formation status* could be compensated to some extent, but for > equality people with backward *mental socio economic formation status* > will have to work hard to develop the same. > > I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue > of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject > matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real > cause harbors. > > > > Regards, > > > > Harshad Dave > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Dear Harshad: > > > > I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the > references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. > As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to > shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to > do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and > certainly profitted from the looting politically). > > > > "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, > who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and > Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, > prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which > Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my > hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is > euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and > "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". > > > > Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many > "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter > than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave > owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I > visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from > Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QCD7ed0aCRAAlp7GdBrl0meYtbgs9bxM8e7Zg-RtwtTHcq2MHVUupotmjSed87xvV-REuQ$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QCD7ed0aCRAAlp7GdBrl0meYtbgs9bxM8e7Zg-RtwtTHcq2MHVUupotmjSed87zIZcXP0Q$ > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave wrote: > > > > Dear all there, > > > > We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA > under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on > the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and > discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in > newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We > just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out > burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against > apartheid was the major cry behind them. > > Though there are various vital aspects of the event, *apartheid* remained > prime of them. > > I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. > > > > Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the > USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to > perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the > europeans changed to black like negro. > > I ask my friends, "What will be the status of *apartheid* in this > situation?" > > > > NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views > on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in > the article. > > > > Regards, > > > > Harshad Dave > > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify us > immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. > Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on > behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content > of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may > contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not > necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, > Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are > subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the > contrary. > > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify us > immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. > Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on > behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content > of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may > contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not > necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, > Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are > subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the > contrary. > > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify us > immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. > Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on > behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content > of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may > contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not > necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, > Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are > subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the > contrary. > > > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify us > immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. > Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on > behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content > of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may > contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not > necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, > Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are > subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the > contrary. > > > -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QCD7ed0aCRAAlp7GdBrl0meYtbgs9bxM8e7Zg-RtwtTHcq2MHVUupotmjSed87yLDuCHZw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200630/84031046/attachment-0001.html From dkirsh@lsu.edu Tue Jun 30 17:35:21 2020 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 00:35:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: Mike, Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression is that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with the implications of such a turn. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism one way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner > wrote: S?ma et al., The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by crosscurrents of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have been wronged. In a modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able to be aligned with an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that authorizes its significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, is such a structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a structuralist project as it is not clear that critical theorists have arrived at consensus about the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism abandon the structuralist mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock structural perspective that can encompass the variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood is simply my perspective, and the project of establishing its viability is purely a political one. Any of us can experience ourselves as victims, and assert a political claim to that effect. Interestingly, it is the political Right that embodies this poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the political Left that orients itself in structuralism. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Annalisa and colleagues Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the context under which? survivors? continue to survive. Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly game Tameka Jones Young https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5DV5trG-A$ (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her monopoly analogy worth my reflection. I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. Regards S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hello S'ma and venerable others, I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" around the shoulders, etc. It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as grievous as Holocaust deniers. Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not earned through merit. When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as if they have no right to do so. So who has the right to use this word "victim"? I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk about social Darwinism! I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident. 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical illusion. 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war victims. 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. I did the same for the term survivor: 1. a person or thing that survives. 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks. Synoymns: balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most recent accepted meaning? It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be considered mere leftovers. Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own unearned benefit and advancement? Is that fitness or crime? t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word without these undertowing currents of meaning? We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My ancestors were enslaved by yours." And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in this fashion. Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors enslaved yours." The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice to meet the crime? In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or the promotion of eugenics. I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that now. I see the errors of my ways." It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the past, let's move on." There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. [EXTERNAL] Hi Andy and Alfredo Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which we have to be concerned about. The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific tools?). My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. Regards, Simangele simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5CXp1iXEg$ Regards S?ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear S?ma, I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *ideological* basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Friends! I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference. Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. This is horribly troubling Racist eugenics Please stop Phillip Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear Prof. David, Your message reads... "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. Point 1 If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that ?it is justified?. Please, try to understand me?. ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? OR ?If it is justified OR not justified? is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned ?Level difference?. Point 2 You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis.? I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe? an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. Regards, Harshad Dave On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: I agree Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Mr. Dave: I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5CTXYOwzQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5DyxB17qQ$ On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: David? Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. Point 1: When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. Point 2: Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both????.? It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.?] The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. Point 3: As concluded by David, ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts??? I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. Regards, Harshad Dave On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony-- I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5CTXYOwzQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5DyxB17qQ$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. Anthony On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. Hi, This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. There are two most probable answers. 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. ?I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.? Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. Regards, Harshad Dave On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Dear Harshad: I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5CTXYOwzQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5DyxB17qQ$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear all there, We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. Regards, Harshad Dave This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5A8swwbOQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200701/1e94f099/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Tue Jun 30 18:29:26 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 21:29:26 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Cultural Praxis coffee hours In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very cool, thanks for sharing. Anthony On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 11:04 AM Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Dear all, > > > > As a follow up of very successful online course by K. Guti?rrez and > colleagues on CHAT, a series of ?coffee hours? between Mike and others, > including students, took place and have been posted on Cultural Praxis? > Agora. > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/category/agora/__;!!Mih3wA!XPdJ4I15Ai4S4exEGilLeIH_QJ_YMFzpgRvI4Qk3jxGyOxtDrlPqwtV_GuY396riAYr2dw$ > > > > > Future coffee hour series may be arranged. If you have any ideas or > proposals, share with us at culturalpraxis@ils.uio.no > > > > On behalf of Cultural Praxis > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200630/f8ed62f7/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Tue Jun 30 19:01:10 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 12:01:10 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the beginning of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable, and likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism" and "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." * https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!VhKMxK62RuHFPtSiafVaIhcBWu6Corlc8Jwv8StB7faR8dToPmZRX0GyVindCZxvdPoTlw$ Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: > > Mike, > > Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My > guess/impression is that as critical theory and > sociocultural theory evolved both have been influenced by > poststructural thought, but neither has made a true > poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena > really grappled with the implications of such a turn. > > David > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > *On Behalf Of *mike cole > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is > cultural marxism one way to deal with mutability or > stability of structure? > > Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days > focuses?on transformational agency and take their roots > from Vygotsky > > and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist > Marxism? > > mike > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner > > wrote: > > S?ma et al., > > The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is > roiled by crosscurrents of modernist and > postmodernist, structuralist and poststructuralist > thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I > have been wronged. In a modernist frame, the > perspective of victim may be able to be aligned with > an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that > authorizes its significance. Critical theory, stemming > from Marxist theory, is such a structuralist > account?or perhaps, more accurately, a structuralist > project as it is not clear that critical theorists > have arrived at consensus about the theory. > Postmodernism and poststructuralism abandon the > structuralist mandate, accepting that there is no > bedrock structural perspective that can encompass the > variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my > victimhood is simply my perspective, and the project > of establishing its viability is purely a political > one. Any of us can experience ourselves as victims, > and assert a political claim to that effect. > Interestingly, it is the political Right that embodies > this poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the > political Left that orients itself in structuralism. > > David > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On Behalf > Of *Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Hi Annalisa and colleagues > > Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in > such an impeccable manner. I see how your method of > using definitions as a foundation for conversations, > specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural > forum such as this one. You have beautifully > demonstrated that in your response below and in some > of your previous enlightening contributions. > > Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 ?is quite > fitting in this situation; when ?a victim expresses > that they are victimised, they are then ?gaslighted?, > as there is something seriously wrong with their > mentality ? the victim mentality. It is short of > saying ?do not think? that you are victimised even if > there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. > Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the > conditions and the context under which? survivors? > continue to survive. > > Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, > ?Critical Theory? ?to name, and shine light on the > hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the conditions > for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are > determined and controlled, even those who have power ? > ?scientific or unscientific?. > > There is undeniable history of efforts and activities > of survivors of different forms oppressions and > genocides, ?where generations of survivors have shown > resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be > met with new and systematic ways of ?psychological and > economic oppression. Leaving them with no option but > to survive by different means at the disposal, > including becoming religious with the home for future > redemption. Of more interest to me are those who keep > trying using ???enlightened? ways by intellectually > explaining to themselves as a collective and to the > oppressor with the hope to bring about change for > their situation ? the ?doing something about their > situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly game > Tameka Jones Young > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!VhKMxK62RuHFPtSiafVaIhcBWu6Corlc8Jwv8StB7faR8dToPmZRX0GyVindCZyQumlNEw$ > > (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way > that highlights why ?victim mentality? is not an > appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who are > working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with > the oppressors? ?survivors? if I may say so. The video > is in the context of the gruesome protests after the > murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for > this conversation is the content, the meaning of her > articulations, though her expressions are accompanied > by very strong emotions, I found her monopoly analogy > worth my reflection. > > I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links > between Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Critical > Race Theory and Social Justice theory, I admire > scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used > these theoretical lenses in their work in trying to > understand mental development it the global context. I > think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe one of > the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns > Lindsay; how Critical theory is finding its way of > infiltrating critical spaces in communities, including > academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance > Studies? ?and threatening scientific thinking. > > It has been good partaking in these conversations. I > think reflections can continue to happen in private at > a personal level and in smaller groups.? What is > important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and > our learning. I myself have learned a lot from this > thread, in conscious and unconscious ways I transform > as I read your contributions, to the point I ?at times > pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in > this thread. > > Regards > > S?ma > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On Behalf > Of *Annalisa Aguilar > *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Hello S'ma and venerable others, > > I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory > being posed as a "grievance science," as if taking on > a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" around the > shoulders, etc. > > It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. > It is almost as grievous as Holocaust deniers. > > Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by > design is intended to uncover the ideologies by which > certain social sciences have been taught and > promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance > might be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some > valuable work from stripping off the veneer of power > structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, > which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals > that privilege is usually not earned through merit. > > When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit > insensitive) for someone of privilege to name the > powerless as "victims," but when this is done, it is > only in an objection when victims call themselves > victims, as if they have no right to do so. > > So who has the right to use this word "victim"? > > I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is > likened to the word "masochistic" and it's *that > baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. > > Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual > and legitimate victims. There seems intertwined in the > meaning of the word something unquantifiable but that > does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and even > more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of > its own harmful effects. (Like when we say "to add > insult to injury"). > > Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? > > Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does > have connotations of resilience and fortitude against > odds (of being victimized). But when we consider the > word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality > game show? (in the early naughts). where people choose > to put themselves in difficult circumstances on > deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by > their wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the > other "survivors." Talk about social Darwinism! > > I feel there is still something the word "survivor" > leaves unspoken about the representation of a person > who has been a target of prejudice, crime, neglect, or > abuse, whether intentionally or not. > > Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and > found these: > > 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or > injurious action or agency: a victim of an > automobile accident. > 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or > her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty > of others, or by some impersonal agency: a victim > of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; > a victim of an optical illusion. > 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as > sacrificed: war victims. > 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. > > When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: > > casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, > dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, > immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, pigeon, prey, > pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, > sucker, underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, > easy mark, hunted, injured party, sitting duck, > sitting target, soft touch. > > I did the same for the term survivor: > > 1. a person or thing that survives. > 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as > joint tenants or others having a joint interest, > who outlives the other or others. > 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in > spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks. > > Synoymns: > > balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, > remainder, remnant, remnants, residue, rest, scraps, > surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts > > The third definition seems? the lest frequent usage, > or is it the most recent accepted meaning? > > It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of > sacrifice; and survivors to be considered mere leftovers. > > Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily > accessible batteries to be utilized for the benefit of > those not sacrificed? Isn't that what criminals do? To > appropriate the property or energy of others for their > own unearned benefit and advancement? > > Is that fitness or crime? > > t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something > left less whole. > > What then would one call an individual or group who > has been overpowered against their self-agency by > another individual or group? Is there a word without > these undertowing currents of meaning? > > We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have > been oppressed." or "I am oppressed," just as no one > likes to say "I have been victimized," "I am a > victim," or "My society is victimized by your > society," or "My ancestors were enslaved by yours." > > And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were > legitimate individuals (victims) of those actual > experiences to describe themselves in this fashion. > > Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I > have been an oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes > to say "I victimize others," "I am a perpetrator," or > "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors > enslaved yours." > > The problem in making these sorts of statements is > that while factual and descriptive, they can actually > be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to say, "I > did this and I can do it again because that's who I > am." or "This happened to me and it can happen again > because that's who I am." > > While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not > watch the video), who can throw about "victimization" > as if it were a shameful badge to wear, I don't see > anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe > those who performed grave injustices against others, > to perhaps utter a phrase like "perpetrator of > injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of > shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would > be right and just they should provide that shadow of > shame, given the injustices that Critical Theory is > attempting to understand, without further empowering > perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. > > Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a > crime performed in past cannot be adjusted to correct > for the crime, that it somehow means justice cannot be > performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la > vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming > the "dead bodies" from "unmarked graves" worth the > unpleasantness of the task? > > Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to > bend the arc of justice to meet the crime? > > In the days of the American Wild West, justice was > doled out too quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. > > This is why I wonder how to consider science when we > are talking about power structures. What is scientific > about justice/injustice? Power seems unscientific. It > is arbitrary. Or is it? > > Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power > structures and their internal reasoning, it would > start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or the promotion > of eugenics. > > I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many > years ago, the name of the guest I don't remember. I > only recall he was a politico for the George W Bush > campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was > Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction > booklet on how to create the kind of society he > wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. > > Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case > of (all forms of) oppression it's rare for the > oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection to do > to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up > for the injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My > sense of privilege allowed me to oppress you, and I > don't feel right about that, so I will stop that now. > I see the errors of my ways." > > It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation > because such folk percieve the cement of history has > been poured and dried. "It's in the past, let's move on." > > There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to > avoid self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it > might be not to be so absurd sounding. > > Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? > > I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that > is my best attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, > and of course the typos there above. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf of > Simangele Mayisela > > *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > *? [EXTERNAL]* > > Hi Andy and Alfredo > > Thank you for responding to my communication, and for > viewing? the video I referred to in my previous email. > Let me say that the connection between the current > conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this > case in relation to? ?levels? of mental development > and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on > Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the > video) is this: > > Lindsayand his colleagues believe that Critical > Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race > Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, ?Identity > Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a > ?movement? which they call ?Grievance studies?,? that > perpetuates ?self-pity? and ?victim mentality?. They > further went on to produce fake scientific study ?dog > rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as > evidence of how unscientific ?grievance studies? are;? > most of which are of course are situated in the social > sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the > system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which > some believe are also tainted by ideological > predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces > mistrust in the notion of review processes of > scientific journals - ?which we have to be concerned > about. > > The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the > picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree > with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, I ?am > however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the > influence of ideological position an individual or > rather a ?scientist? holds,? ( an idea alluded to by > some,? earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as > we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific > enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific > knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with > ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of > Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our attention the > dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of > ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid > technological connection the collective is gradually > become global rather than in specific localities. Even > those that deemed to have ?primitive mental > functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, > their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and > other spaces with Critical Theory? like a ?Trojan > Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( > po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ > > ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical > Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of > ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, unsophisticated > mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying > adjectives to describe all those who have not > developed ?scientific tools?). > > My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to > some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, > clearly not on this YouTube video I referred you to, > but it is ?within this line of debates about > ?scientific? knowledge?. > > It seems to me that the association of ?Paulo Freire?s > ??Education for the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" > is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for ?Education > for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially > if we take into consideration all the publications by > Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, > the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is > evidence of? the collectively formulated knowledge > that is generously shared, rendering the commodified > "scientific"? knowledge accessible to the privileged > few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the > survival of humanity. > > Regards, > > Simangele > > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On Behalf > Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Casting collective efforts at self-determination as > "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line > of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of > all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of > such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, > like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping > people from being victims to self-determination. There > is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is > called philanthropy and charity. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science > scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and > scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video > critiquing critical theory in terms of what > Lindsay refers to as ?grievance studies??is > ?indeed surprising and remarkable in the context > of this conversation! > > In the video, which did not so much touch my small > Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know > how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions > Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an > example of ?critical social justice? books, which > he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people > into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that > teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, > and that students are being taught with this > critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) > attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay?s > critique holds or has any touch with what critical > theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would > be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a good > book for teachers, and why would that one be it? > > Alfredo > > *From: * > on behalf > of Martin Packer > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Hi Simangele, > > How are you evaluating ?level of mental > functioning?? I would say that is something with > which psychology has had some difficulty. > > Martin > > /"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs.?Seligman > or?Dr. Lowie or discuss matters?with > Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I?become at?once?aware > that my partner does not understand anything in > the matter, and I end usually?with the?feeling > that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930)/ > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele > Mayisela > wrote: > > Further, ?I still have more questions, however > it does appear to me that at the heart of the > ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are > the ?levels? of mental development which are > associated to ?skin colour?, with little > consideration of the historical oppression > that created the ?backwards? economies that > keep the third of the global population is > what appears to be of low level of mental > functioning. The question is more about ?what > is the quality of the contents of what is > embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? > with the aim to find evidence for the difference. > > Just to share, lately? have been viewing James > Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, > ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? ?vs > popular narratives that are a propaganda based > on Critical Theory, which are taking over > academy. Here is one his videos that you may > want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be > warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s > argument on ideologies. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!VhKMxK62RuHFPtSiafVaIhcBWu6Corlc8Jwv8StB7faR8dToPmZRX0GyVindCZxkfnq3gg$ > > > Regards > > S?ma > > *From:* Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a > question. > > Dear Alfredo > > Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? > which is crucial to rendering the question > ?scientific?. But couple with level, which > could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or > ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for > ?difference?. As much as the question to be > asked should be about the ?ideological basis? > , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be > linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis > serves as springboard from which the scientist > works from, which informs where the person > ?will land ?in terms of the ideas. > > Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. > I see what you mean ? > > Regards, > > S?ma > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On > Behalf Of *Alfredo Jornet Gil > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Dear S?ma, > > I am not sure anyone could provide that > ?scientific? basis without first explaining > what is meant by ?level,? and most > importantly, why and how such explanation > should be relevant to account for historical > relations across cultures/societies, specially > relations of oppression. I understand your > curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is > important to be very clear about this issue > and not let it unfold as if this was simply an > adequate scientific or philosophical research > question. Given all that we know from history > and more precisely from political economy, the > important discussion is not about the > scientific basis of that affirmation, but > about its **ideological** basis: what sort of > ideological inquiry is set forth by posing > that question in the context of this thread > and of this moment in history? There can be no > question that there are and there were > differences between the socioeconomic > formations of different cultures and that such > cultures were local, not global or > international. So, the problem is not finding > the ?scientific? basis but the how and why > that question is being raised. I hope this > makes sense to all of you, does it? > > Alfredo > > *From: * > on > behalf of Simangele Mayisela > > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Friends! > > I am curious to read more about the scientific > basis of the ?the difference in the level of > /the mental socioeconomic formation/ between > the two.? ?Can colleagues be kind to provide > scientific sources of this difference. > > Regards, > > S?ma > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On > Behalf Of *White, Phillip > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > This is horribly troubling > > Racist eugenics > > Please stop > > Phillip > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > > wrote: > > > Dear Prof. David, > > Your message reads... > > "I?think?racist filth, devoid of any > scientific understanding and without a > shred of scientific basis,?should not be > distributed?anywhere. It certainly does > not belong on this list." > > I request you to go through the following > points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch > the sound of my saying. > > Point 1 > > If my views on the subject matter impress > anyone that it is a distribution of the > racist filth, I think they (my views) are > grasped with a great misunderstanding. > > Whenever any unpleasant event happens > (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or > else) between black/brown and white, the > attitude and mindset of racism in the > event is discussed by all as if the color > of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if > it is founded on the color of the skin. > > Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically > it is not the cause of color of the skin > but it (the cause) harbors in the > difference in the level of /the mental > socioeconomic formation/ between the two. > > Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, > no where I believed that *?it is justified?*. > > Please, try to understand me?. > > ?Whether racism should be there OR it > should not be there? > > OR > > ?If it is justified OR not justified? > > is not the subject matter of my saying. I > just say the cause of the said ?filth? > does not lie in the color of the skin but > it lies in the above mentioned ?Level > difference?. > > Point 2 > > You have reproduced a small paragraph from > my doc file that I attached in my previous > message. > > If I am not mistaken to understand the > essence of the saying in your message, I > think you pointed out? > > ??The views that I presented in the > subject paragraph do not have /scientific > understanding/ and /scientific basis/.? > > I agree with you that while writing my > subject views I have never searched if > they have scientific support as above. I > believe? /an outcome of contemplation/ and > /a logical compliance/ are the supports > and justifications of any /thinker/ to > present his views. > > If people (readers) accept the views no > research paper is needed to support them. > When a thinker is asked to present > scientific support for his views I fear > doors of philosophical works will get shut > down. I have not claimed the views are > /rules/ and /laws/. If readers do not > agree with them, the views automatically > will become null and void. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van > der Riet > wrote: > > I agree > > /Mary van der Riet (Phd),?Associate > Professor/ > > /Discipline of Psychology,?School of > Applied Human Sciences,?College of > Humanities,?University of > KwaZulu-Natal,?South Africa/ > > /email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za > ??tel: > +27 33 260 6163/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > on behalf of David Kellogg > > > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on > a question. > > Dear Mr. Dave: > > I?think?racist filth, devoid of any > scientific understanding and without a > shred of scientific basis,?should not > be distributed?anywhere. It certainly > does not belong on this list. > > "Who were the black people that > Europeans brought with them? They were > living in primitive habitations in > Africa with very primitive socio > economic formation. Their forefathers > have never passed through the ups and > downs in last 3000 years comparable to > the lessons European people learned > and sustained with and ever before > that. The development of brain threads > of the black people and structure of > their DNA are in compliance with the > pattern of life their forefathers > passed through in Africa and its > status was in line with the socio > economic formation in which they lived > when they were forcibly kidnapped as > slaves by European people and their > agents. Generally we talk about > apartheid but it is complex issue. We > never give consideration to this fact > of difference in brain thread net work > and structure of DNA and consequential > difficulties people of both the sides > face while they have to interact with > each others." > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in > memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VhKMxK62RuHFPtSiafVaIhcBWu6Corlc8Jwv8StB7faR8dToPmZRX0GyVindCZzQyYS0Rg$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: > /L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ > /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VhKMxK62RuHFPtSiafVaIhcBWu6Corlc8Jwv8StB7faR8dToPmZRX0GyVindCZyjtPXbHQ$ > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM > Harshad Dave > wrote: > > > David? > > Your message addressed to Anthony > impresses me that you have reached > a conclusion in haste and > prematurely about my > concepts/views. Perhaps it might > be due to weakness/error in the > presentation of my views. Here I > put three points to express myself. > > *Point 1:* > > When I contemplate on the issue of > racism (discrimination between two > sets of people from different > origin), I temporarily suspend my > feelings/sentiments founded on > /philosophy of humanity/ to work > on the issue impartially. I appeal > to all friends to come out from > that cocoon if they want to have a > transparent vision on the subject > issue. > > If anyone believes that the > anatomy of the subject issue might > be discovered by mounting one leg > on the horse of our /sentiments > and emotions on humanitarian > concepts/ and second leg on the > horse of /facts of/ /the > prevailing social constitution of > latest socio economic formation, > /I think he will never succeed in > his task. > > *Point 2:* > > Here below, I attach one > doc?file....title--- ?Where the > shoe pinches?? I request you to > read the points discussed there on > this subject matter on page 28 as > the article is very long. > > [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It > is not necessary that there should > be two separate nations or > habitations with different levels > of socio economic formations and > both????.? > > It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. > prejudice and partiality, but it > is mandatory that they must have > all the abilities to secure their > right of enjoyment through their > abilities only.?] > > The fact that is discussed in the > above mentioned text cannot be > overlooked with our /justice and > good conscience/. > > *Point 3:* > > As concluded by David, > > ???but it seems to me that Mr. > Dave is trying to reinterpret > events in the USA using concepts??? > > I say he has misunderstood me. I > do agree that the social > constitution in India is > influencedby ?cast culture? but > there are people who might think > and analyze issues pertaining to > social science and economics > remaining out of the cocoon of > ?cast culture?. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM > David Kellogg > > wrote: > > Anthony-- > > I think Annalisa knows more > about this than I do, but it > seems to me that Mr. Dave is > trying to reinterpret events > in the USA using concepts that > are related to the ancient > Hindu system of caste. Castes > are not races (they are even > less tied to pigmentation than > race), and they are certainly > not classes (they are > reproduced by marriage and the > family rather than by > relations of production): I > suppose they are something > like kinship groups that are > tied for historical as well as > religious reasons to > particular professions. > Because they are emphasized in > religion (and more recently in > India's communal politics) > they can certainly be said to > be "socio-mental" in quality. > Somehow I don't think that > this is what Andy has in mind > when he says that cultural > artefacts bring the WHOLE of > culture into interpersonal > interaction and suspend the > distinction between social > theory and psychology! > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in > memoriam: A manual and a > manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VhKMxK62RuHFPtSiafVaIhcBWu6Corlc8Jwv8StB7faR8dToPmZRX0GyVindCZzQyYS0Rg$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai > Veresov: /L.S. Vygotsky's > Pedological Works/ /Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology/" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VhKMxK62RuHFPtSiafVaIhcBWu6Corlc8Jwv8StB7faR8dToPmZRX0GyVindCZyjtPXbHQ$ > > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 > PM Anthony Barra > > > wrote: > > Sorry, I have no idea what > you're talking about here, > although my sense is that > it's wildly wrong, in > various ways. I am > confused but hope you have > a nice day, regardless. > > Anthony > > > On Sunday, June 21, 2020, > Harshad Dave > > > wrote: > > > Atten.: Anthony Barra > and David Kellog. > > Hi, > > This is with reference > to your replies to my > message. I am thankful > for the same and > regret for the delay > in reply. I used the > word ?apartheid? just > in the sense of > racism, complains of > blacks/brown that they > are discriminated in > social dealing by > whites etc. David > Kellog - Thanks for > the detail source of > the word ?apartheid?, > however I request you > to take its meaning in > the same sense as > expressed above. The > suggested/recommended > articles are viewed in > a glancing by me; I > recall I have read > them (one or more) on > Academia web. You will > agree their subject > matter is different. > Anthony Barra ? The > article that was > recommended by you is > read by me and it > touches on various > realities in the > subject matter of our > topic. > > I just put my views > against the question I > asked in my message > dtd. 17 June 2020. > > There are two most > probable answers. > > 1.The turned out black > European people will > be the victim of > racism > (discrimination) by > the turned out white > people from African > origin. > > 2.The situation > remains the same and > the world will see > protests and fights on > an issue or against a > complaining that the > black European people > discriminate white > people of African > origin in the USA. > > I leave it to the > readers to give their > logical consideration > to the one out of the > above two, but my > opinion says the > second answer will > hold good, but one > should not forget it > is just true on > hypothetical presumption. > > It is a mistake to > believe that /the > attitude of > discrimination/ and > /sickness of racism > /harbor in the color > of the skin. In fact > above > altitude/sickness is > founded on the > difference of */mental > socio economic > formation status/* of > two men. There is a > basic difference > between the two > statuses of /mental > socio economic > formation /of black > people of African > origin and that of > white people of > European origin. I > believe that a mass of > people constituting a > society with advanced > socio economic > formation has fair > chances to exploit the > mass of people > constituting a society > with backward socio > economic formation. It > is equally true for > two classes of peoples > at different /mental > socio economic > formation status/ > also. But, here (in > the USA) both the > classes of people are > living in the same > society with one > /constitution/ and > uniform /rule of > laws/. It is absurd to > believe that the > present socio economic > formation of the > society of the USA > (21^st century) has > prevailed and occupied > equally and uniformly > by each and every > citizen of the USA. > One might find various > people in the present > society of the USA > with different levels > of /mental socio > economic formation > status/. It is really > a complicated > situation when the > society is throughout > with the latest socio > economic formation and > members of the society > are with varying > levels of /mental > socio economic > formation status/ in > the same society. Let > me present part of the > message of Abraham > Lincoln before I > finish this message. > > Fourth Debate: > Charleston, Illinois ? > September 18, 1858. > > ?/I will say then that > I am not, nor ever > have been, in favor of > bringing about in any > way the social and > political equality of > the white and black > races, [applause]-that > I am not nor ever have > been in favor of > making voters or > jurors of negroes, nor > of qualifying them to > hold office, nor to > intermarry with white > people; and I will say > in addition to this > that there is a > physical difference > between the white and > black races which I > believe will forever > forbid the two races > living together on > terms of social and > political equality. > And inasmuch as they > cannot so live, while > they do remain > together there must be > the position of > superior and inferior, > and I as much as any > other man am in favor > of having the superior > position assigned to > the white race. I say > upon this occasion I > do not perceive that > because the white man > is to have the > superior position the > negro should be denied > everything./? > > Here it is between the > lines that difference > in the /mental socio > economic formation > status/ could be > compensated to some > extent, but for > equality people with > backward /mental socio > economic formation > status/ will have to > work hard to develop > the same. > > I clarify, neither I > am in favor of nor > against the victims of > the issue of > discrimination and > racism as far as my > contemplation on the > subject matter is to > be carried out. But, I > just want to explain > where the real cause > harbors. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 > at 6:01 PM David > Kellogg > > > wrote: > > Dear Harshad: > > I am still a > little stunned by > the last post you > wrote, with all > the references to > predatory > shopkeepers. It > sounded like the > stuff of a pogrom. > As we discussed in > the "My Hometown > Minneapolis" > thread, the > threats to > shopkeepers in > Minneapolis often > targeted South > Asians, and had > nothing to do with > the police (except > that the police > may have been > involved and > certainly > profitted from the > looting politically). > > "Apartheid" is a > term invented by > the South African > sociologist > Verwoerd, who > studied with the > Gestalists. Some > Gestaltists, like > Narziss Ach and > Felix Krueger, > became Nazis; > Verwoerd himself > became, as you > probably know, > prime minister of > South Africa and > brought in the > system of > apartheid which > Gandhi struggled > against during his > early years. The > term used in my > hometown > Minneapolis is not > "apartheid" but > segregation: it is > euphemistically > referred to > as?"redlining" (by > insurance > companies) and > "racial covenants" > but not as > "apartheid". > > Segregation and > Jim Crow in > Minneapolis is not > based on > pigmentation. Many > "white" people are > darker than > blacks, and many > black people are > lighter than > whites, because of > the centuries of > rape and the > enthusiasm?of > slave owners for > the practice of > selling their own > children. The last > time I visited the > "housing > project"near where > I grew up it was > full of Hmong from > Southeast Asia. > Segregation in > Minneapolis is > above all a matter > of class. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > New Article: > Ruqaiya Hasan, in > memoriam: A manual > and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VhKMxK62RuHFPtSiafVaIhcBWu6Corlc8Jwv8StB7faR8dToPmZRX0GyVindCZzQyYS0Rg$ > > > New Translation > with Nikolai > Veresov: /L.S. > Vygotsky's > Pedological Works/ > /Volume One: > Foundations of > Pedology/" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VhKMxK62RuHFPtSiafVaIhcBWu6Corlc8Jwv8StB7faR8dToPmZRX0GyVindCZyjtPXbHQ$ > > > On Wed, Jun 17, > 2020 at 4:16 PM > Harshad Dave > > > wrote: > > Dear all there, > > We all are > aware of the > event of the > death of > George Floyd > in the USA > under police > custody. There > are flows of > opinions, > comments and > views on the > event with > different > aspects all > over the > world. There > are debates > and > discussions on > the event on > innumerable > web sites, we > find them in > newspapers and > among the > talks of > people at > private and > public places. > We just do not > talk about > riots and > other events > happened under > agony and out > burst of anger > on the > unfortunate > death of > Floyd, > however, voice > against > apartheid was > the major cry > behind them. > > Though there > are various > vital aspects > of the event, > */apartheid/* > remained prime > of them. > > I simply ask > one question > to my friends > who read this > post. > > Let us > hypothetically?presume, > on one day > fine morning, > when people of > the USA awake, > they find that > skin color of > all the blacks > is changed to > perfectly > white like > european > people and the > skin color of > all the > europeans > changed to > black like negro. > > I ask my > friends, "What > will be the > status of > */apartheid/* > in this > situation?" > > NB: I write > one article on > the ill fated > event and its > aspects. Your > views on the > above question > will help me > to write my > views with > more clarity > in the article. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > This communication is intended for the > addressee only. It is confidential. If you > have received this communication in error, > please notify us immediately and destroy the > original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the > permission of the University. Only authorised > signatories are competent to enter into > agreements on behalf of the University and > recipients are thus advised that the content > of this message may not be legally binding on > the University and may contain the personal > views and opinions of the author, which are > not necessarily the views and opinions of The > University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. > All agreements between the University and > outsiders are subject to South African Law > unless the University agrees in writing to the > contrary. > > This communication is intended for the > addressee only. It is confidential. If you > have received this communication in error, > please notify us immediately and destroy the > original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the > permission of the University. Only authorised > signatories are competent to enter into > agreements on behalf of the University and > recipients are thus advised that the content > of this message may not be legally binding on > the University and may contain the personal > views and opinions of the author, which are > not necessarily the views and opinions of The > University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. > All agreements between the University and > outsiders are subject to South African Law > unless the University agrees in writing to the > contrary. > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. > It is confidential. If you have received this > communication in error, please notify us immediately > and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission > of the University. Only authorised signatories are > competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the > University and recipients are thus advised that the > content of this message may not be legally binding on > the University and may contain the personal views and > opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the > views and opinions of The University of the > Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between > the University and outsiders are subject to South > African Law unless the University agrees in writing to > the contrary. > > This communication is intended for the addressee only. > It is confidential. If you have received this > communication in error, please notify us immediately > and destroy the original message. You may not copy or > disseminate this communication without the permission > of the University. Only authorised signatories are > competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the > University and recipients are thus advised that the > content of this message may not be legally binding on > the University and may contain the personal views and > opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the > views and opinions of The University of the > Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between > the University and outsiders are subject to South > African Law unless the University agrees in writing to > the contrary. > > > -- > > /Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under > similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same > tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and > oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same > fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens./// > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VhKMxK62RuHFPtSiafVaIhcBWu6Corlc8Jwv8StB7faR8dToPmZRX0GyVindCZxNHO7omQ$ > > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu > . > > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > . > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200701/a7185174/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Jun 30 20:42:36 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 20:42:36 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with the distinctions you are making? Mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the beginning > of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That > there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable, and > likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism" and > "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree > that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the > development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." > > - > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!Q_q_DNhDoq1Xzty8Vz0Wuuux1nL8ULgJJJ2-vL13YzNjFRpGelADB-JXAxMUbAp1FxMWGg$ > > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: > > Mike, > > Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression is > that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been > influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true > poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with > the implications of such a turn. > > David > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > *On Behalf Of *mike cole > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism one > way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? > > Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on > transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky > > and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? > > > > mike > > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner wrote: > > S?ma et al., > > The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by crosscurrents > of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and poststructuralist > thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have been wronged. In a > modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able to be aligned with > an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that authorizes its > significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, is such a > structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a structuralist project > as it is not clear that critical theorists have arrived at consensus about > the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism abandon the structuralist > mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock structural perspective that can > encompass the variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood > is simply my perspective, and the project of establishing its viability is > purely a political one. Any of us can experience ourselves as victims, and > assert a political claim to that effect. Interestingly, it is the political > Right that embodies this poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the > political Left that orients itself in structuralism. > > David > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > > > Hi Annalisa and colleagues > > > > Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable > manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for > conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum > such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response > below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. > > > > Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this > situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then > ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? > the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are > victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. > Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the > context under which? survivors? continue to survive. > > > > Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to name, > and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the > conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and > controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. > > > > There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of > different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors > have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with > new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving > them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, > including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more > interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by > intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the > oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the > ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly > game Tameka Jones Young > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!Q_q_DNhDoq1Xzty8Vz0Wuuux1nL8ULgJJJ2-vL13YzNjFRpGelADB-JXAxMUbArCvJuqHg$ > > (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why > ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who > are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? > ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome > protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for > this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though > her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her > monopoly analogy worth my reflection. > > > > I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural > Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, > I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these > theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development > it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe > one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how > Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in > communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance > Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. > > > > It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can > continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. > What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. > I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious > ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times > pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. > > > > > > Regards > > S?ma > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar > *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Hello S'ma and venerable others, > > > > I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a > "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" > around the shoulders, etc. > > > > It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as > grievous as Holocaust deniers. > > > > Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended > to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught > and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as > nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the > veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which > in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not > earned through merit. > > > > When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for > someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is > done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as > if they have no right to do so. > > > > So who has the right to use this word "victim"? > > > > > > I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word > "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. > > > > Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate > victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something > unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and > even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful > effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). > > > > Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? > > > > Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of > resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we > consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show > (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult > circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their > wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk > about social Darwinism! > > > > I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about > the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, > neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. > > > > Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: > > 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or > agency: a victim of an automobile accident. > 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions > or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a > victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an > optical illusion. > 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war > victims. > 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. > > When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: > > casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, > gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, > pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, > underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured > party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. > > > > I did the same for the term survivor: > > 1. a person or thing that survives. > 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or > others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. > 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of > opposition, hardship, or setbacks. > > Synoymns: > > balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, > remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts > > The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most > recent accepted meaning? > > > > It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and > survivors to be considered mere leftovers. > > > > Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries > to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what > criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own > unearned benefit and advancement? > > > > Is that fitness or crime? > > > > > > > > t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. > > > > > > What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered > against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word > without these undertowing currents of meaning? > > > > We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or > "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I > am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My > ancestors were enslaved by yours." > > > > And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate > individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in > this fashion. > > > > Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an > oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am > a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors > enslaved yours." > > > > The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and > descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to > say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This > happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." > > > > While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), > who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, > I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those > who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase > like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of > shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just > they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that > Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering > perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. > > > > Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in > past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means > justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la > vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from > "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? > > > > Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice > to meet the crime? > > > > In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, > but now it seems it is too slowly. > > > > This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about > power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems > unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? > > > > Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and > their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or > the promotion of eugenics. > > > > I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of > the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George > W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's > 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the > kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. > > > > Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) > oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection > to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the > injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed > me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that > now. I see the errors of my ways." > > > > It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk > percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the > past, let's move on." > > > > There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, > and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. > > Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? > > > > I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. > Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. > > > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Hi Andy and Alfredo > > > > Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I > referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between > the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in > relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James > Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the > video) is this: > > > > Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with > its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, > Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement > which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and > ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study > ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how > unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are > situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the > system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also > tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces > mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which > we have to be concerned about. > > > > The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am > not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, > I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of > ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an > idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we > aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives > associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with > ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein > bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the > name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological > connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in > specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental > functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected > ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like > a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( > po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ > > ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan > Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, > unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying > adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific > tools?). > > > > My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources > that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I > referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? > knowledge?. > > > > It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for > the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook > for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we > take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for > Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical > Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is > generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge > accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to > advance the survival of humanity. > > > > Regards, > > Simangele > > > > > > > > > > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or > "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive > movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a > sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at > stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. > There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called > philanthropy and charity. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss > what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video > critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance > studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this > conversation! > > > > In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so > well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions > Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social > justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into > self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with > Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, > as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether > Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory > scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an > example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * > on behalf of Martin Packer > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Hi Simangele, > > > > How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is > something with which psychology has had some difficulty. > > > > Martin > > > > *"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss > matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my > partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with > the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930)* > > > > > > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela < > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote: > > > > Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that > at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the > ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with > little consideration of the historical oppression that created the > ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what > appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more > about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black > skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. > > > > Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is > ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular > narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking > over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are > Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument > on ideologies. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!Q_q_DNhDoq1Xzty8Vz0Wuuux1nL8ULgJJJ2-vL13YzNjFRpGelADB-JXAxMUbAoqa07zMA$ > > > > > Regards > > S?ma > > > > > > > > *From:* Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear Alfredo > > > > Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering > the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies > as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for > ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the > ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to > the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the > scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms > of the ideas. > > > > Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? > > Regards, > > S?ma > > > > -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Q_q_DNhDoq1Xzty8Vz0Wuuux1nL8ULgJJJ2-vL13YzNjFRpGelADB-JXAxMUbAotW_H_mw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200630/44b7ac9e/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Tue Jun 30 21:03:53 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 14:03:53 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] structure and agency In-Reply-To: References: <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to have erected giant structures, which explicate how a social formation reproduces itself. I.e., they look like structuralists. But look again. At the heart of Hegel's /Logic /and Marx's /Capital /is a contradiction. The structure is built around *contradictions*. Under the impact of critique, at a certain point, the contradiction(s) unfolds as social transformation. Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to incorporate this idea in his system with its 4-levels of contradiction, and Ilyenkov explains in detail how Marx and Hegel did it in his 1960 monograph "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's /Capital/." andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote: > David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with > the distinctions you are making? > Mike > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates > from the beginning of the 20th century and > poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That there > were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is > undeniable, and likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. > But as I see it, "Structuralism" and > "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded > projects. I agree that both of these projects have had > an impact or influence on the development of Critical > Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." > > * https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!VrJ6ogmE0QXMa3fMTmRp6YRhgzkXCIbZ0jSEci2-B6Gvtituftx_3TXEEt7HTGhCCx0aDQ$ > > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: >> >> Mike, >> >> Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My >> guess/impression is that as critical theory and >> sociocultural theory evolved both have been >> influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has >> made a true poststructural turn; nor have scholars in >> either arena really grappled with the implications of >> such a turn. >> >> David >> >> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> >> *On Behalf >> Of *mike cole >> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >> >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >> >> That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is >> cultural marxism one way to deal with mutability or >> stability of structure? >> >> Most of the marxist social science I am reading these >> days focuses?on transformational agency and take >> their roots from Vygotsky >> >> and (various )predecessors, so this is >> post-structuralist Marxism? >> >> mike >> >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner >> > wrote: >> >> S?ma et al., >> >> The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is >> roiled by crosscurrents of modernist and >> postmodernist, structuralist and >> poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is >> always perspectival?I have been wronged. In a >> modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be >> able to be aligned with an overarching (i.e., >> structuralist) account that authorizes its >> significance. Critical theory, stemming from >> Marxist theory, is such a structuralist >> account?or perhaps, more accurately, a >> structuralist project as it is not clear that >> critical theorists have arrived at consensus >> about the theory. Postmodernism and >> poststructuralism abandon the structuralist >> mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock >> structural perspective that can encompass the >> variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my >> victimhood is simply my perspective, and the >> project of establishing its viability is purely a >> political one. Any of us can experience ourselves >> as victims, and assert a political claim to that >> effect. Interestingly, it is the political Right >> that embodies this poststructuralist critique of >> victimhood, and the political Left that orients >> itself in structuralism. >> >> David >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> > > *On >> Behalf Of *Simangele Mayisela >> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > > >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >> >> Hi Annalisa and colleagues >> >> Thank you for processing my earlier articulation >> in such an impeccable manner. I see how your >> method of using definitions as a foundation for >> conversations, specially sensitive conversations >> in a multicultural forum such as this one. You >> have beautifully demonstrated that in your >> response below and in some of your previous >> enlightening contributions. >> >> Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 ?is >> quite fitting in this situation; when ?a victim >> expresses that they are victimised, they are then >> ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously >> wrong with their mentality ? the victim >> mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? >> that you are victimised even if there is >> ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. >> Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but >> the conditions and the context under which? >> survivors? continue to survive. >> >> Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, >> ?Critical Theory? ?to name, and shine light on >> the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the >> conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? >> surviving are determined and controlled, even >> those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. >> >> There is undeniable history of efforts and >> activities of survivors of different forms >> oppressions and genocides, ?where generations of >> survivors have shown resilience and the ability >> to move on, but only to be met with new and >> systematic ways of ?psychological and economic >> oppression. Leaving them with no option but to >> survive by different means at the disposal, >> including becoming religious with the home for >> future redemption. Of more interest to me are >> those who keep trying using ???enlightened? ways >> by intellectually explaining to themselves as a >> collective and to the oppressor with the hope to >> bring about change for their situation ? the >> ?doing something about their situation.? Using >> the analogy of a monopoly game Tameka Jones Young >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!VrJ6ogmE0QXMa3fMTmRp6YRhgzkXCIbZ0jSEci2-B6Gvtituftx_3TXEEt7HTGjMruH83w$ >> >> (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a >> way that highlights why ?victim mentality? is not >> an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who >> are working hard to be free, let alone to be at >> par with the oppressors? ?survivors? if I may say >> so. The video is in the context of the gruesome >> protests after the murder of George Floyd, >> perhaps what is important for this conversation >> is the content, the meaning of her articulations, >> though her expressions are accompanied by very >> strong emotions, I found her monopoly analogy >> worth my reflection. >> >> I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some >> links between Cultural Historical Activity >> Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice >> theory, I admire scholars, some who maybe in this >> thread who have used these theoretical lenses in >> their work in trying to understand mental >> development it the global context. I think >> Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe one of >> the appropriate tools to explain that which >> concerns Lindsay; how Critical theory is finding >> its way of infiltrating critical spaces in >> communities, including academia, which he sees as >> nothing but ?Grievance Studies? ?and threatening >> scientific thinking. >> >> It has been good partaking in these >> conversations. I think reflections can continue >> to happen in private at a personal level and in >> smaller groups. What is important is; yes need to >> reflect on our thinking and our learning. I >> myself have learned a lot from this thread, in >> conscious and unconscious ways I transform as I >> read your contributions, to the point I ?at times >> pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said >> in this thread. >> >> Regards >> >> S?ma >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> > > *On >> Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar >> *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > > >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >> >> Hello S'ma and venerable others, >> >> I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory >> being posed as a "grievance science," as if >> taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" >> around the shoulders, etc. >> >> It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to >> that. It is almost as grievous as Holocaust deniers. >> >> Still, to consider it analytically, Critical >> Theory by design is intended to uncover the >> ideologies by which certain social sciences have >> been taught and promulgated. It's >> de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen >> as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable >> work from stripping off the veneer of power >> structures in order to analyze its underlying >> logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and >> reveals that privilege is usually not earned >> through merit. >> >> When considering relations of power, it's easy >> (albeit insensitive) for someone of privilege to >> name the powerless as "victims," but when this is >> done, it is only in an objection when victims >> call themselves victims, as if they have no right >> to do so. >> >> So who has the right to use this word "victim"? >> >> I feel there is a strange aura about the word >> that is likened to the word "masochistic" and >> it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my >> post here. >> >> Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are >> actual and legitimate victims. There seems >> intertwined in the meaning of the word something >> unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming >> the victim" dynamics, and even more insidious, >> gaslighting, and these have results of its own >> harmful effects. (Like when we say "to add insult >> to injury"). >> >> Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? >> >> Frequently people use the word "survivor," which >> does have connotations of resilience and >> fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But >> when we consider the word "survivor" when used as >> the name of a reality game show? (in the early >> naughts). where people choose to put themselves >> in difficult circumstances on deserted islands to >> overcome these circumstances by their wits, to >> then be "voted off the island" by the other >> "survivors." Talk about social Darwinism! >> >> I feel there is still something the word >> "survivor" leaves unspoken about the >> representation of a person who has been a target >> of prejudice, crime, neglect, or abuse, whether >> intentionally or not. >> >> Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" >> and found these: >> >> 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or >> injurious action or agency: a victim of an >> automobile accident. >> 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by >> his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the >> dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal >> agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the >> victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical >> illusion. >> 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as >> sacrificed: war victims. >> 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. >> >> When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: >> >> casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, >> clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, gull, >> hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, >> pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, >> scapegoat, stooge, sucker, underdog, wretch, babe >> in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured >> party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. >> >> I did the same for the term survivor: >> >> 1. a person or thing that survives. >> 2. Law. the one of two or more designated >> persons, as joint tenants or others having a >> joint interest, who outlives the other or others. >> 3. a person who continues to function or prosper >> in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks. >> >> Synoymns: >> >> balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, >> remainder, remnant, remnants, residue, rest, >> scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts >> >> The third definition seems? the lest frequent >> usage, or is it the most recent accepted meaning? >> >> It is odd to consider victims as designated >> parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be >> considered mere leftovers. >> >> Is it that the life energy of victims are like >> easily accessible batteries to be utilized for >> the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that >> what criminals do? To appropriate the property or >> energy of others for their own unearned benefit >> and advancement? >> >> Is that fitness or crime? >> >> t the same time to be a survivor seems to be >> something left less whole. >> >> What then would one call an individual or group >> who has been overpowered against their >> self-agency by another individual or group? Is >> there a word without these undertowing currents >> of meaning? >> >> We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I >> have been oppressed." or "I am oppressed," just >> as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," >> "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by >> your society," or "My ancestors were enslaved by >> yours." >> >> And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, >> were legitimate individuals (victims) of those >> actual experiences to describe themselves in this >> fashion. >> >> Would it be no different than an individual >> saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I >> oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize >> others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My society >> victimizes your society," or "My ancestors >> enslaved yours." >> >> The problem in making these sorts of statements >> is that while factual and descriptive, they can >> actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As >> if to say, "I did this and I can do it again >> because that's who I am." or "This happened to me >> and it can happen again because that's who I am." >> >> While there are people such as this Lindsay (I >> did not watch the video), who can throw about >> "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to >> wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the >> same disdain to describe those who performed >> grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter >> a phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that >> might invoke that same shadow of shame. To my >> estimation, whatever the words, it would be right >> and just they should provide that shadow of >> shame, given the injustices that Critical Theory >> is attempting to understand, without further >> empowering perpetrators and without further >> disempowering victims. >> >> Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because >> a crime performed in past cannot be adjusted to >> correct for the crime, that it somehow means >> justice cannot be performed? In a sort of >> "shrugged shoulders - c'est la vie" kind of >> attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead >> bodies" from "unmarked graves" worth the >> unpleasantness of the task? >> >> Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard >> to bend the arc of justice to meet the crime? >> >> In the days of the American Wild West, justice >> was doled out too quickly, but now it seems it is >> too slowly. >> >> This is why I wonder how to consider science when >> we are talking about power structures. What is >> scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems >> unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? >> >> Were we to describe the cause and effect of such >> power structures and their internal reasoning, it >> would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or the >> promotion of eugenics. >> >> I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw >> many years ago, the name of the guest I don't >> remember. I only recall he was a politico for the >> George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed >> his favorite book was Orwell's 1984, as if to say >> that it was an instruction booklet on how to >> create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant >> honesty was breathtaking. >> >> Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the >> case of (all forms of) oppression it's rare for >> the oppressor to say, "I have some >> self-reflection to do to answer for the deeds of >> my ancestors, to make up for the injustices >> suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of >> privilege allowed me to oppress you, and I don't >> feel right about that, so I will stop that now. I >> see the errors of my ways." >> >> It feels there is no obligation for >> reconciliation because such folk percieve the >> cement of history has been poured and dried. >> "It's in the past, let's move on." >> >> There is something absurd about the tacit >> agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm trying to >> sort out how it might be not to be so absurd >> sounding. >> >> Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this >> reflection? >> >> I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but >> that is my best attempt. Forgive any flaws in my >> reasoning, and of course the typos there above. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> > > on >> behalf of Simangele Mayisela >> > > >> *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > > >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >> >> *? [EXTERNAL]* >> >> Hi Andy and Alfredo >> >> Thank you for responding to my communication, and >> for viewing? the video I referred to in my >> previous email. Let me say that the connection >> between the current conversation about >> ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in relation >> to? ?levels? of mental development and >> ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on >> Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in >> the video) is this: >> >> Lindsayand his colleagues believe that Critical >> Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical >> Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, >> ?Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific >> base but are a ?movement? which they call >> ?Grievance studies?,? that perpetuates >> ?self-pity? and ?victim mentality?. They further >> went on to produce fake scientific study ?dog >> rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax >> science? as evidence of how unscientific >> ?grievance studies? are;? most of which are of >> course are situated in the social sciences. This >> further exposed the paucity in the system of peer >> reviews in scientific journals, which some >> believe are also tainted by ideological >> predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces >> mistrust in the notion of review processes of >> scientific journals - ?which we have to be >> concerned about. >> >> The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the >> picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly >> agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical >> Theories, I ?am however fascinated by the fact >> that they confirm the influence of ideological >> position an individual or rather a ?scientist? >> holds,? ( an idea alluded to by some,? earlier in >> this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to >> be objective in our pursuit of scientific >> enquiry, the narratives associated with our >> scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted >> with ideologically biases or historicity. The >> likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our >> attention the dangers of the exclusion of the >> masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who >> in this day of rapid technological connection the >> collective is gradually become global rather than >> in specific localities. Even those that deemed to >> have ?primitive mental functioning? or >> ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their >> unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and >> other spaces with Critical Theory like a? ?Trojan >> Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( >> po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ >> >> ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if >> Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific >> evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, >> unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add >> other classifying adjectives to describe all >> those who have not developed ?scientific tools?). >> >> My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related >> to some of the sources that I have encountered >> earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I >> referred you to, but it is ?within this line of >> debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. >> >> It seems to me that the association of ?Paulo >> Freire?s ??Education for the Oppressed? to >> "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps >> mistook for ?Education for the Depressed?, which >> is unfortunate, especially if we take into >> consideration all the publications by Freire, >> like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the >> Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education >> is evidence of? the collectively formulated >> knowledge that is generously shared, rendering >> the commodified "scientific"? knowledge >> accessible to the privileged few, generously >> shared to all who needs to advance the survival >> of humanity. >> >> Regards, >> >> Simangele >> >> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za >> >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> > > *On >> Behalf Of *Andy Blunden >> *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 >> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >> >> Casting collective efforts at self-determination >> as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long >> been a line of right-wing criticism of >> progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo >> Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin >> though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like >> Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping >> people from being victims to self-determination. >> There is such a thing as a politics of pity >> though; it is called philanthropy and charity. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> >> On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >> >> thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of >> science scholars who discuss what rigorous >> scientific and scholarship are or can be, >> your choice?a video critiquing critical >> theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as >> ?grievance studies??is ?indeed surprising and >> remarkable in the context of this conversation! >> >> In the video, which did not so much touch my >> small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as >> to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay >> mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the >> Oppressed as an example of ?critical social >> justice? books, which he defines as ?a >> codified way to indulge people into self >> pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that >> teachers are being educated with Freire?s >> book, and that students are being taught with >> this critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this >> self-pity) attitude. Without going into >> whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any >> touch with what critical theory scholars >> argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from >> Lindsay?s position, an example of a good book >> for teachers, and why would that one be it? >> >> Alfredo >> >> *From: * >> on >> behalf of Martin Packer >> >> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, >> Activity" >> >> *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 >> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> >> >> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >> >> Hi Simangele, >> >> How are you evaluating ?level of mental >> functioning?? I would say that is something >> with which psychology has had some difficulty. >> >> Martin >> >> /"I may say that whenever I meet >> Mrs.?Seligman or?Dr. Lowie or discuss >> matters?with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, >> I?become at?once?aware that my partner does >> not understand anything in the matter, and I >> end usually?with the?feeling that this also >> applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930)/ >> >> On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele >> Mayisela > > >> wrote: >> >> Further, ?I still have more questions, >> however it does appear to me that at the >> heart of the ?hypothesis? of the >> scientific question are the ?levels? of >> mental development which are associated >> to ?skin colour?, with little >> consideration of the historical >> oppression that created the ?backwards? >> economies that keep the third of the >> global population is what appears to be >> of low level of mental functioning. The >> question is more about ?what is the >> quality of the contents of what is >> embodies by the black skin or a white >> skin?? with the aim to find evidence for >> the difference. >> >> Just to share, lately? have been viewing >> James Lindsay argument on what is >> ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and >> ?scholarship? ?vs popular narratives that >> are a propaganda based on Critical >> Theory, which are taking over academy. >> Here is one his videos that you may want >> to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be >> warned that you may be challenged by >> Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!VrJ6ogmE0QXMa3fMTmRp6YRhgzkXCIbZ0jSEci2-B6Gvtituftx_3TXEEt7HTGgdOxR0ZQ$ >> >> >> Regards >> >> S?ma >> >> *From:* Simangele Mayisela >> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > > >> *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on >> a question. >> >> Dear Alfredo >> >> Thank you for taking my attention of >> ?level? which is crucial to rendering the >> question ?scientific?. But couple with >> level, which could be quantifies as >> ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or >> ?inferior? would account for >> ?difference?. As much as the question to >> be asked should be about the ?ideological >> basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is >> likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as >> the hypothesis serves as springboard from >> which the scientist works from, which >> informs where the person ?will land ?in >> terms of the ideas. >> >> Nevertheless thank you for the >> clarification. I see what you mean ? >> >> Regards, >> >> S?ma >> > -- > > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under > similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same > tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license > and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VrJ6ogmE0QXMa3fMTmRp6YRhgzkXCIbZ0jSEci2-B6Gvtituftx_3TXEEt7HTGhnZ1uh5g$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu > . > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200701/698ed28e/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Jun 30 21:16:57 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 21:16:57 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency In-Reply-To: References: <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: Andy -- You write that " The structure is *built around* *contradictions" * Would it be useful to say, also, that "structures *contain* the *contradictions *minist in social life? I am asking because i am thinking of institutions as sociocultural structures that coordinate constituent activities sufficiently to enable human biocuturalsocial re-production.. mike and g'night! On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:06 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to have erected giant structures, > which explicate how a social formation reproduces itself. I.e., they look > like structuralists. But look again. At the heart of Hegel's *Logic *and > Marx's *Capital *is a contradiction. The structure is built around > *contradictions*. Under the impact of critique, at a certain point, the > contradiction(s) unfolds as social transformation. > > Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to incorporate this idea in his system with > its 4-levels of contradiction, and Ilyenkov explains in detail how Marx and > Hegel did it in his 1960 monograph "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's > *Capital*." > > andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote: > > David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with the > distinctions you are making? > Mike > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the beginning >> of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That >> there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable, and >> likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism" and >> "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree >> that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the >> development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." >> >> - >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!V-mYNb3iJ4MF7rB0hejs8XZr-x47zmuly5qtpqPQPH_4pacZ-MyCn3K8BNOiCivSrfsWLw$ >> >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: >> >> Mike, >> >> Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression is >> that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been >> influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true >> poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with >> the implications of such a turn. >> >> David >> >> >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *On Behalf Of *mike cole >> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >> >> >> >> That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism >> one way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? >> >> Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on >> transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky >> >> and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? >> >> >> >> mike >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner wrote: >> >> S?ma et al., >> >> The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by crosscurrents >> of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and poststructuralist >> thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have been wronged. In a >> modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able to be aligned with >> an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that authorizes its >> significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, is such a >> structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a structuralist project >> as it is not clear that critical theorists have arrived at consensus about >> the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism abandon the structuralist >> mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock structural perspective that can >> encompass the variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood >> is simply my perspective, and the project of establishing its viability is >> purely a political one. Any of us can experience ourselves as victims, and >> assert a political claim to that effect. Interestingly, it is the political >> Right that embodies this poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the >> political Left that orients itself in structuralism. >> >> David >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *On Behalf Of *Simangele Mayisela >> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi Annalisa and colleagues >> >> >> >> Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable >> manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for >> conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum >> such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response >> below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. >> >> >> >> Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this >> situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then >> ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? >> the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are >> victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. >> Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the >> context under which? survivors? continue to survive. >> >> >> >> Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to >> name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the >> conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and >> controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. >> >> >> >> There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of >> different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors >> have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with >> new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving >> them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, >> including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more >> interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by >> intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the >> oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the >> ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly >> game Tameka Jones Young >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!V-mYNb3iJ4MF7rB0hejs8XZr-x47zmuly5qtpqPQPH_4pacZ-MyCn3K8BNOiCivCeZ930g$ >> >> (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why >> ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who >> are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? >> ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome >> protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for >> this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though >> her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her >> monopoly analogy worth my reflection. >> >> >> >> I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural >> Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, >> I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these >> theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development >> it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe >> one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how >> Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in >> communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance >> Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. >> >> >> >> It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections >> can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller >> groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our >> learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and >> unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I >> at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> S?ma >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *On Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar >> *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >> >> >> >> Hello S'ma and venerable others, >> >> >> >> I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a >> "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" >> around the shoulders, etc. >> >> >> >> It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as >> grievous as Holocaust deniers. >> >> >> >> Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended >> to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught >> and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as >> nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the >> veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which >> in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not >> earned through merit. >> >> >> >> When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for >> someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is >> done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as >> if they have no right to do so. >> >> >> >> So who has the right to use this word "victim"? >> >> >> >> >> >> I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word >> "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. >> >> >> >> Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate >> victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something >> unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and >> even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful >> effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). >> >> >> >> Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? >> >> >> >> Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations >> of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we >> consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show >> (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult >> circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their >> wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk >> about social Darwinism! >> >> >> >> I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about >> the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, >> neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. >> >> >> >> Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: >> >> 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or >> agency: a victim of an automobile accident. >> 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions >> or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a >> victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an >> optical illusion. >> 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war >> victims. >> 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. >> >> When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: >> >> casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, >> gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, >> pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, >> underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured >> party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. >> >> >> >> I did the same for the term survivor: >> >> 1. a person or thing that survives. >> 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants >> or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. >> 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of >> opposition, hardship, or setbacks. >> >> Synoymns: >> >> balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, >> remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts >> >> The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most >> recent accepted meaning? >> >> >> >> It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and >> survivors to be considered mere leftovers. >> >> >> >> Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible >> batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't >> that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for >> their own unearned benefit and advancement? >> >> >> >> Is that fitness or crime? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. >> >> >> >> >> >> What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered >> against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word >> without these undertowing currents of meaning? >> >> >> >> We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or >> "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I >> am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My >> ancestors were enslaved by yours." >> >> >> >> And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate >> individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in >> this fashion. >> >> >> >> Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an >> oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am >> a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors >> enslaved yours." >> >> >> >> The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and >> descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to >> say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This >> happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." >> >> >> >> While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), >> who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, >> I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those >> who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase >> like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of >> shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just >> they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that >> Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering >> perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. >> >> >> >> Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in >> past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means >> justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la >> vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from >> "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? >> >> >> >> Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of >> justice to meet the crime? >> >> >> >> In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, >> but now it seems it is too slowly. >> >> >> >> This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about >> power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems >> unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? >> >> >> >> Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and >> their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or >> the promotion of eugenics. >> >> >> >> I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of >> the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George >> W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's >> 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the >> kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. >> >> >> >> Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) >> oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection >> to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the >> injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed >> me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that >> now. I see the errors of my ways." >> >> >> >> It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk >> percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the >> past, let's move on." >> >> >> >> There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, >> and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. >> >> Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? >> >> >> >> I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best >> attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there >> above. >> >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Simangele Mayisela >> *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >> >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> >> Hi Andy and Alfredo >> >> >> >> Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video >> I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between >> the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in >> relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James >> Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the >> video) is this: >> >> >> >> Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with >> its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, >> Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement >> which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and >> ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study >> ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how >> unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are >> situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the >> system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also >> tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces >> mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which >> we have to be concerned about. >> >> >> >> The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am >> not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, >> I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of >> ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an >> idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we >> aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives >> associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with >> ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein >> bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the >> name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological >> connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in >> specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental >> functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected >> ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like >> a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( >> po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ >> >> ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan >> Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, >> unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying >> adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific >> tools?). >> >> >> >> My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources >> that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I >> referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? >> knowledge?. >> >> >> >> It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for >> the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook >> for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we >> take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for >> Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical >> Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is >> generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge >> accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to >> advance the survival of humanity. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Simangele >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *On Behalf Of *Andy Blunden >> *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 >> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >> >> >> >> Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or >> "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive >> movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a >> sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at >> stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. >> There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called >> philanthropy and charity. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >> >> thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss >> what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video >> critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance >> studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this >> conversation! >> >> >> >> In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not >> so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions >> Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social >> justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into >> self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with >> Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, >> as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether >> Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory >> scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an >> example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? >> >> >> >> Alfredo >> >> *From: * >> on behalf of Martin Packer >> >> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> >> *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 >> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> >> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >> >> >> >> Hi Simangele, >> >> >> >> How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is >> something with which psychology has had some difficulty. >> >> >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> *"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss >> matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my >> partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with >> the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930)* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela < >> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote: >> >> >> >> Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that >> at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the >> ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with >> little consideration of the historical oppression that created the >> ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what >> appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more >> about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black >> skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. >> >> >> >> Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what >> is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular >> narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking >> over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are >> Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument >> on ideologies. >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!V-mYNb3iJ4MF7rB0hejs8XZr-x47zmuly5qtpqPQPH_4pacZ-MyCn3K8BNOiCivVsiKM3Q$ >> >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> S?ma >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Simangele Mayisela >> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >> >> >> >> Dear Alfredo >> >> >> >> Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to >> rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be >> quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account >> for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the >> ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to >> the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the >> scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms >> of the ideas. >> >> >> >> Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? >> >> Regards, >> >> S?ma >> >> >> >> -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!V-mYNb3iJ4MF7rB0hejs8XZr-x47zmuly5qtpqPQPH_4pacZ-MyCn3K8BNOiCivThQbJOQ$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!V-mYNb3iJ4MF7rB0hejs8XZr-x47zmuly5qtpqPQPH_4pacZ-MyCn3K8BNOiCivThQbJOQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200630/83fdb89d/attachment-0001.html From dkirsh@lsu.edu Tue Jun 30 21:26:47 2020 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 04:26:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: Andy, I?m not schooled in the technical definitions of structuralism or poststructuralism. From odd readings here and there (e.g., Walkerdine, 1990, quoted below), I come to a sense of structuralism as seeking to formulate overarching explanatory systems, and of poststructuralism as resisting universal perspectivizing. So, for instance, I take much of the history of the physical sciences and mathematics (predating the 20th century) to be structuralist ventures, with discovery of inherent limitations to those projects as embodied in the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, Russell?s Paradox, and Godel?s Incompleteness Theorem helping to give rise to poststructural thought. Returning to the interest Mike expressed in ?transformational agency,? the following quote from Walkerdine helps me locate Marxism within the structuralist tradition, particularly as counterpoised with poststructural interpretations of liberation. I shall draw out certain contradictions for traditional Marxist approaches to the relations of power within educational institutions. One such view is that education, as a bourgeois institution, places teachers in a position of power from which they can oppress children, who are institutionally powerless. To somewhat overstate the case: the teacher, powerful in a bourgeois educational institution, is in a position to oppress children, whose resistance to that power, like all resistance, is understood as ultimately progressive rather than contradictory. Children's movements have tended to understand resistance in terms of 'rights' or 'liberation'. Similarly, certain feminist accounts have used the psychological concepts of 'role' and 'stereotype' to understand women and girls as unitary subjects whose economic dependence, powerlessness and physical weak- ness are reflected in their production as 'passive' , 'weak' , and 'dependent' individuals. While such accounts have been extremely important in helping to develop Marxist and feminist practices, I want to pinpoint some of the reasons why such analyses might not be as helpful as we might previously have supposed in understanding the phenomena presented here. I want to show, using examples from classroom practice, that both female teachers and small girls are not unitary subjects uniquely positioned, but are produced as a nexus of subjectivities, in relations of power which are constantly shifting, rendering them at one moment powerful and at another powerless. 2 Additionally, I want to argue that while an understanding of resist- ance is clearly important, we cannot read every resistance as having revolutionary effects; sometimes resistances have 'reactionary' effects. Resistance is not just struggle against the oppression of a static power (and therefore potentially revolutionary simply because it is struggle against the monolith); relations of power and resistance are continually reproduced, in continual struggle and constantly shifting. (Walkerdine, 1990, pp. 2-3) 2. For example, see criticisms of the notion of the unitary subject of psychology and the assertion of the necessity for an understanding of individuals as a 'nexus of subjectivities' in Adlam, et al, ' Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. In V. Walkerdine (Ed.), Schoolgirl fictions (pp. 3-15). London: Verso. Reprinted from Screen Education, 38, 14-24, 1981. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 10:43 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with the distinctions you are making? Mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the beginning of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable, and likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism" and "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." * https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!Q9MXoF2Tc69nb0GuvyrYvJuEoPlHIr1WcRvhK-SmXs7in6Drxa_gGUWcyq7Hk_aP9z6zoA$ Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: Mike, Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression is that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with the implications of such a turn. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism one way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner > wrote: S?ma et al., The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by crosscurrents of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have been wronged. In a modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able to be aligned with an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that authorizes its significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, is such a structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a structuralist project as it is not clear that critical theorists have arrived at consensus about the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism abandon the structuralist mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock structural perspective that can encompass the variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood is simply my perspective, and the project of establishing its viability is purely a political one. Any of us can experience ourselves as victims, and assert a political claim to that effect. Interestingly, it is the political Right that embodies this poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the political Left that orients itself in structuralism. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Annalisa and colleagues Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the context under which? survivors? continue to survive. Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly game Tameka Jones Young https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!Q9MXoF2Tc69nb0GuvyrYvJuEoPlHIr1WcRvhK-SmXs7in6Drxa_gGUWcyq7Hk_buipTxPQ$ (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her monopoly analogy worth my reflection. I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. Regards S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hello S'ma and venerable others, I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" around the shoulders, etc. It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as grievous as Holocaust deniers. Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not earned through merit. When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as if they have no right to do so. So who has the right to use this word "victim"? I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk about social Darwinism! I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident. 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical illusion. 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war victims. 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. I did the same for the term survivor: 1. a person or thing that survives. 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks. Synoymns: balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most recent accepted meaning? It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be considered mere leftovers. Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own unearned benefit and advancement? Is that fitness or crime? t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word without these undertowing currents of meaning? We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My ancestors were enslaved by yours." And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in this fashion. Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors enslaved yours." The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice to meet the crime? In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or the promotion of eugenics. I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that now. I see the errors of my ways." It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the past, let's move on." There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. [EXTERNAL] Hi Andy and Alfredo Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which we have to be concerned about. The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific tools?). My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. Regards, Simangele simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!Q9MXoF2Tc69nb0GuvyrYvJuEoPlHIr1WcRvhK-SmXs7in6Drxa_gGUWcyq7Hk_bxNv3a5w$ Regards S?ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S?ma -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Q9MXoF2Tc69nb0GuvyrYvJuEoPlHIr1WcRvhK-SmXs7in6Drxa_gGUWcyq7Hk_ZqgBWQHQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200701/5928341a/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Tue Jun 30 21:44:50 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 14:44:50 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency In-Reply-To: References: <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: "Contradiction" is only a coherent concept insofar as there is a "logic", i.e., some institution. The general idea is that all logics contain such contradictions. Institutions "try" to eliminate contradictions and instantiate a "logic," but it turns out to be a losing battle. Nonetheless, an institution can live forever without changing despite harbouring contradictions. The structure has to be subject to critique; the contradictions have to be exposed and pursued. Movement and change is not automatic. But yes, you are right, life, let alone social life, is impossible without "institutions." We continue building that aeroplane as it flies through the sky. Without institutions, norms, shared meanings, collaborative activities, trust we will all die. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 2:16 pm, mike cole wrote: > Andy -- You write that " The structure is /built around/ > *contradictions" * > Would?it be useful to say, also, that "structures > /contain/ the *contradictions *minist?in social life? > I am asking because i am thinking of institutions as > sociocultural structures that coordinate constituent > activities sufficiently?to enable human biocuturalsocial > re-production.. > mike > and g'night! > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:06 PM Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to have erected > giant structures, which explicate how a social > formation reproduces itself. I.e., they look like > structuralists. But look again. At the heart of > Hegel's /Logic /and Marx's /Capital /is a > contradiction. The structure is built around > *contradictions*. Under the impact of critique, at a > certain point, the contradiction(s) unfolds as social > transformation. > > Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to incorporate this > idea in his system with its 4-levels of contradiction, > and Ilyenkov explains in detail how Marx and Hegel did > it in his 1960 monograph "The Abstract and Concrete in > Marx's /Capital/." > > andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote: >> David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do >> with the distinctions you are making? >> Mike >> >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >> >> I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" >> dates from the beginning of the 20th century and >> poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That >> there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's >> writing is undeniable, and likewise with Hegel >> and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, >> "Structuralism" and "Poststructuralism" are >> specific historically bounded projects. I agree >> that both of these projects have had an impact or >> influence on the development of Critical Theory >> and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." >> >> * https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!Vbo2U2NxoEFafJtBUR40AtvkBVYT1KAKn_9LlHZa_fRicMs7nWhBIVZhw2mOPL47C-upaA$ >> >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: >>> >>> Mike, >>> >>> Marx and Vygotsky both were structural >>> theorists. My guess/impression is that as >>> critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved >>> both have been influenced by poststructural >>> thought, but neither has made a true >>> poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either >>> arena really grappled with the implications of >>> such a turn. >>> >>> David >>> >>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> >>> *On >>> Behalf Of *mike cole >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> >>> >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>> >>> That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. >>> So is cultural marxism one way to deal with >>> mutability or stability of structure? >>> >>> Most of the marxist social science I am reading >>> these days focuses?on transformational agency >>> and take their roots from Vygotsky >>> >>> and (various )predecessors, so this is >>> post-structuralist Marxism? >>> >>> mike >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner >>> > wrote: >>> >>> S?ma et al., >>> >>> The issue of victimhood and ?victim >>> mentality? is roiled by crosscurrents of >>> modernist and postmodernist, structuralist >>> and poststructuralist thought. Victim >>> mentality is always perspectival?I have been >>> wronged. In a modernist frame, the >>> perspective of victim may be able to be >>> aligned with an overarching (i.e., >>> structuralist) account that authorizes its >>> significance. Critical theory, stemming from >>> Marxist theory, is such a structuralist >>> account?or perhaps, more accurately, a >>> structuralist project as it is not clear >>> that critical theorists have arrived at >>> consensus about the theory. Postmodernism >>> and poststructuralism abandon the >>> structuralist mandate, accepting that there >>> is no bedrock structural perspective that >>> can encompass the variety of local >>> perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood >>> is simply my perspective, and the project of >>> establishing its viability is purely a >>> political one. Any of us can experience >>> ourselves as victims, and assert a political >>> claim to that effect. Interestingly, it is >>> the political Right that embodies this >>> poststructuralist critique of victimhood, >>> and the political Left that orients itself >>> in structuralism. >>> >>> David >>> >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> >> > >>> *On Behalf Of *Simangele Mayisela >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> >> > >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a >>> question. >>> >>> Hi Annalisa and colleagues >>> >>> Thank you for processing my earlier >>> articulation in such an impeccable manner. I >>> see how your method of using definitions as >>> a foundation for conversations, specially >>> sensitive conversations in a multicultural >>> forum such as this one. You have beautifully >>> demonstrated that in your response below and >>> in some of your previous enlightening >>> contributions. >>> >>> Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 >>> ?is quite fitting in this situation; when ?a >>> victim expresses that they are victimised, >>> they are then ?gaslighted?, as there is >>> something seriously wrong with their >>> mentality ? the victim mentality. It is >>> short of saying ?do not think? that you are >>> victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, >>> or you ?were? victimised. Perhaps we can >>> accept better with ?survivors? but the >>> conditions and the context under which? >>> survivors? continue to survive. >>> >>> Ok then, then the survivors develop a >>> concept, ?Critical Theory? ?to name, and >>> shine light on the hidden aspects of >>> ?survivorhood?, where the conditions for >>> thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are >>> determined and controlled, even those who >>> have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. >>> >>> There is undeniable history of efforts and >>> activities of survivors of different forms >>> oppressions and genocides, ?where >>> generations of survivors have shown >>> resilience and the ability to move on, but >>> only to be met with new and systematic ways >>> of ?psychological and economic oppression. >>> Leaving them with no option but to survive >>> by different means at the disposal, >>> including becoming religious with the home >>> for future redemption. Of more interest to >>> me are those who keep trying using >>> ???enlightened? ways by intellectually >>> explaining to themselves as a collective and >>> to the oppressor with the hope to bring >>> about change for their situation ? the >>> ?doing something about their situation.? >>> Using the analogy of a monopoly game Tameka >>> Jones Young >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!Vbo2U2NxoEFafJtBUR40AtvkBVYT1KAKn_9LlHZa_fRicMs7nWhBIVZhw2mOPL62fmvnIQ$ >>> >>> (please watch if you a minute to spare) , >>> has a way that highlights why ?victim >>> mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather >>> demeaning of those who are working hard to >>> be free, let alone to be at par with the >>> oppressors? ?survivors? if I may say so. The >>> video is in the context of the gruesome >>> protests after the murder of George Floyd, >>> perhaps what is important for this >>> conversation is the content, the meaning of >>> her articulations, though her expressions >>> are accompanied by very strong emotions, I >>> found her monopoly analogy worth my reflection. >>> >>> I must say I owe it to myself to try draw >>> some links between Cultural Historical >>> Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and >>> Social Justice theory, I admire scholars, >>> some who maybe in this thread who have used >>> these theoretical lenses in their work in >>> trying to understand mental development it >>> the global context. I think Cultural >>> Historical Activity Theory maybe one of the >>> appropriate tools to explain that which >>> concerns Lindsay; how Critical theory is >>> finding its way of infiltrating critical >>> spaces in communities, including academia, >>> which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance >>> Studies? ?and threatening scientific thinking. >>> >>> It has been good partaking in these >>> conversations. I think reflections can >>> continue to happen in private at a personal >>> level and in smaller groups.? What is >>> important is; yes need to reflect on our >>> thinking and our learning. I myself have >>> learned a lot from this thread, in conscious >>> and unconscious ways I transform as I read >>> your contributions, to the point I ?at times >>> pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was >>> said in this thread. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> S?ma >>> >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> >> > >>> *On Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar >>> *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> >> > >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a >>> question. >>> >>> Hello S'ma and venerable others, >>> >>> I was intrigued by this notion of Critical >>> Theory being posed as a "grievance science," >>> as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim >>> mentality" around the shoulders, etc. >>> >>> It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it >>> to that. It is almost as grievous as >>> Holocaust deniers. >>> >>> Still, to consider it analytically, Critical >>> Theory by design is intended to uncover the >>> ideologies by which certain social sciences >>> have been taught and promulgated. It's >>> de-constructive, right? This stance might be >>> seen as nihilistic, but there has been some >>> valuable work from stripping off the veneer >>> of power structures in order to analyze its >>> underlying logic, which in many cases has >>> been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is >>> usually not earned through merit. >>> >>> When considering relations of power, it's >>> easy (albeit insensitive) for someone of >>> privilege to name the powerless as >>> "victims," but when this is done, it is only >>> in an objection when victims call themselves >>> victims, as if they have no right to do so. >>> >>> So who has the right to use this word "victim"? >>> >>> I feel there is a strange aura about the >>> word that is likened to the word >>> "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am >>> wrangling with in my post here. >>> >>> Must there be prejudice cast upon those who >>> are actual and legitimate victims. There >>> seems intertwined in the meaning of the word >>> something unquantifiable but that does >>> result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and >>> even more insidious, gaslighting, and these >>> have results of its own harmful effects. >>> (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). >>> >>> Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? >>> >>> Frequently people use the word "survivor," >>> which does have connotations of resilience >>> and fortitude against odds (of being >>> victimized). But when we consider the word >>> "survivor" when used as the name of a >>> reality game show? (in the early naughts). >>> where people choose to put themselves in >>> difficult circumstances on deserted islands >>> to overcome these circumstances by their >>> wits, to then be "voted off the island" by >>> the other "survivors." Talk about social >>> Darwinism! >>> >>> I feel there is still something the word >>> "survivor" leaves unspoken about the >>> representation of a person who has been a >>> target of prejudice, crime, neglect, or >>> abuse, whether intentionally or not. >>> >>> Curious, I looked up the definitions of >>> "victim" and found these: >>> >>> 1. a person who suffers from a destructive >>> or injurious action or agency: a victim >>> of an automobile accident. >>> 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as >>> by his or her own emotions or ignorance, >>> by the dishonesty of others, or by some >>> impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced >>> confidence; the victim of a swindler; a >>> victim of an optical illusion. >>> 3. a person or animal sacrificed or >>> regarded as sacrificed: war victims. >>> 4. a living creature sacrificed in >>> religious rites. >>> >>> When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find >>> this: >>> >>> casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, >>> clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, >>> gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, >>> patsy, pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, >>> sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, >>> underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, >>> easy mark, hunted, injured party, sitting >>> duck, sitting target, soft touch. >>> >>> I did the same for the term survivor: >>> >>> 1. a person or thing that survives. >>> 2. Law. the one of two or more designated >>> persons, as joint tenants or others >>> having a joint interest, who outlives >>> the other or others. >>> 3. a person who continues to function or >>> prosper in spite of opposition, >>> hardship, or setbacks. >>> >>> Synoymns: >>> >>> balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, >>> oddments, remainder, remnant, remnants, >>> residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds >>> and ends, orts >>> >>> The third definition seems? the lest >>> frequent usage, or is it the most recent >>> accepted meaning? >>> >>> It is odd to consider victims as designated >>> parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be >>> considered mere leftovers. >>> >>> Is it that the life energy of victims are >>> like easily accessible batteries to be >>> utilized for the benefit of those not >>> sacrificed? Isn't that what criminals do? To >>> appropriate the property or energy of others >>> for their own unearned benefit and advancement? >>> >>> Is that fitness or crime? >>> >>> t the same time to be a survivor seems to be >>> something left less whole. >>> >>> What then would one call an individual or >>> group who has been overpowered against their >>> self-agency by another individual or group? >>> Is there a word without these undertowing >>> currents of meaning? >>> >>> We can say oppressed, but no one likes to >>> say "I have been oppressed." or "I am >>> oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I >>> have been victimized," "I am a victim," or >>> "My society is victimized by your society," >>> or "My ancestors were enslaved by yours." >>> >>> And yet, these would be factual >>> pronouncements, were legitimate individuals >>> (victims) of those actual experiences to >>> describe themselves in this fashion. >>> >>> Would it be no different than an individual >>> saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I >>> oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize >>> others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My >>> society victimizes your society," or "My >>> ancestors enslaved yours." >>> >>> The problem in making these sorts of >>> statements is that while factual and >>> descriptive, they can actually be twisted >>> into being prescriptive. As if to say, "I >>> did this and I can do it again because >>> that's who I am." or "This happened to me >>> and it can happen again because that's who I >>> am." >>> >>> While there are people such as this Lindsay >>> (I did not watch the video), who can throw >>> about "victimization" as if it were a >>> shameful badge to wear, I don't see anyone >>> of that camp using the same disdain to >>> describe those who performed grave >>> injustices against others, to perhaps utter >>> a phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", >>> that might invoke that same shadow of shame. >>> To my estimation, whatever the words, it >>> would be right and just they should provide >>> that? shadow of shame, given the injustices >>> that Critical Theory is attempting to >>> understand, without further empowering >>> perpetrators and without further >>> disempowering victims. >>> >>> Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse >>> because a crime performed in past cannot be >>> adjusted to correct for the crime, that it >>> somehow means justice cannot be performed? >>> In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la >>> vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes >>> exhuming the "dead bodies" from "unmarked >>> graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? >>> >>> Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so >>> hard to bend the arc of justice to meet the >>> crime? >>> >>> In the days of the American Wild West, >>> justice was doled out too quickly, but now >>> it seems it is too slowly. >>> >>> This is why I wonder how to consider science >>> when we are talking about power structures. >>> What is scientific about justice/injustice? >>> Power seems unscientific. It is arbitrary. >>> Or is it? >>> >>> Were we to describe the cause and effect of >>> such power structures and their internal >>> reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi >>> propaganda, or the promotion of eugenics. >>> >>> I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I >>> saw many years ago, the name of the guest I >>> don't remember. I only recall he was a >>> politico for the George W Bush campaign, and >>> the fellow claimed his favorite book was >>> Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an >>> instruction booklet on how to create the >>> kind of society he wanted. The blatant >>> honesty was breathtaking. >>> >>> Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in >>> the case of (all forms of) oppression it's >>> rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some >>> self-reflection to do to answer for the >>> deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the >>> injustices suffered by your ancestors," or >>> "My sense of privilege allowed me to oppress >>> you, and I don't feel right about that, so I >>> will stop that now. I see the errors of my >>> ways." >>> >>> It feels there is no obligation for >>> reconciliation because such folk percieve >>> the cement of history has been poured and >>> dried. "It's in the past, let's move on." >>> >>> There is something absurd about the tacit >>> agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm >>> trying to sort out how it might be not to be >>> so absurd sounding. >>> >>> Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this >>> reflection? >>> >>> I'm not sure I'm articulating this very >>> well, but that is my best attempt. Forgive >>> any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the >>> typos there above. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> >> > on >>> behalf of Simangele Mayisela >>> >> > >>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> >> > >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a >>> question. >>> >>> *? [EXTERNAL]* >>> >>> Hi Andy and Alfredo >>> >>> Thank you for responding to my >>> communication, and for viewing? the video I >>> referred to in my previous email. Let me say >>> that the connection between the current >>> conversation about ?scientific? knowledge >>> (in this case in relation to ?levels? of >>> mental development and ?ideology?) and James >>> Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having >>> no scientific basis (in the video) is this: >>> >>> Lindsayand his colleagues believe that >>> Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots >>> like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race >>> Feminist theory, ?Identity Theories, etc. do >>> not have a scientific base but are a >>> ?movement? which they call ?Grievance >>> studies?,? that perpetuates ?self-pity? and >>> ?victim mentality?. They further went on to >>> produce fake scientific study ?dog rape >>> culture and feminism? known as ?hoax >>> science? as evidence of how unscientific >>> ?grievance studies? are; most of which are >>> of course are situated in the social >>> sciences. This further exposed the paucity >>> in the system of peer reviews in scientific >>> journals, which some believe are also >>> tainted by ideological predispositions ? my >>> fear is that this introduces mistrust in the >>> notion of review processes of scientific >>> journals - ?which we have to be concerned about. >>> >>> The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument >>> to the picture is: while I am not certain if >>> I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on >>> Critical Theories, I ?am however fascinated >>> by the fact that they confirm the influence >>> of ideological position an individual or >>> rather a ?scientist? holds,? ( an idea >>> alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). >>> I believe, as much as we aspire to be >>> objective in our pursuit of scientific >>> enquiry, the narratives associated with our >>> scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be >>> tainted with ideologically biases or >>> historicity. The likes of Lindsay and >>> Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers >>> of the exclusion of the masses in the name >>> of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day >>> of rapid technological connection the >>> collective is gradually become global rather >>> than in specific localities. Even those that >>> deemed to have ?primitive mental >>> functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental >>> functioning, their unexpected ability to >>> infiltrate academia and other spaces with >>> Critical Theory? like a? ?Trojan Horse?, >>> that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( >>> po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ >>> >>> ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if >>> Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is >>> scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim >>> mentality?, unsophisticated mental >>> functioning, ? (we can add other classifying >>> adjectives to describe all those who have >>> not developed ?scientific tools?). >>> >>> My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is >>> related to some of the sources that I have >>> encountered earlier, clearly not on this >>> YouTube video I referred you to, but it is >>> ?within this line of debates about >>> ?scientific? knowledge?. >>> >>> It seems to me that the association of >>> ?Paulo Freire?s ??Education for the >>> Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of >>> twisted and perhaps mistook for ?Education >>> for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, >>> especially if we take into consideration all >>> the publications by Freire, like Education >>> for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan >>> Horse analogy for the Critical Education is >>> evidence of? the collectively formulated >>> knowledge that is generously shared, >>> rendering the commodified "scientific" >>> knowledge accessible to the privileged few, >>> generously shared to all who needs to >>> advance the survival of humanity. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Simangele >>> >>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za >>> >>> >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> >> > >>> *On Behalf Of *Andy Blunden >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 >>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a >>> question. >>> >>> Casting collective efforts at >>> self-determination as "victim mentality" or >>> "self pity" has long been a line of >>> right-wing criticism of progressive >>> movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is >>> the last to be guilty of such a sin though; >>> his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like >>> Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping >>> people from being victims to >>> self-determination. There is such a thing as >>> a politics of pity though; it is called >>> philanthropy and charity. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> >>> On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >>> >>> thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy >>> of science scholars who discuss what >>> rigorous scientific and scholarship are >>> or can be, your choice?a video >>> critiquing critical theory in terms of >>> what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance >>> studies??is ?indeed surprising and >>> remarkable in the context of this >>> conversation! >>> >>> In the video, which did not so much >>> touch my small Marxist me (I am not so >>> well read so as to know how much of a >>> Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo >>> Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an >>> example of ?critical social justice? >>> books, which he defines as ?a codified >>> way to indulge people into self >>> pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that >>> teachers are being educated with >>> Freire?s book, and that students are >>> being taught with this critical (or, as >>> Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) >>> attitude. Without going into whether >>> Lindsay?s critique holds or has any >>> touch with what critical theory scholars >>> argue and do, I wonder, what would be, >>> from Lindsay?s position, an example of a >>> good book for teachers, and why would >>> that one be it? >>> >>> Alfredo >>> >>> *From: >>> * >>> >>> on behalf of Martin Packer >>> >>> >>> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, >>> Activity" >>> >>> *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 >>> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> >>> >>> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a >>> question. >>> >>> Hi Simangele, >>> >>> How are you evaluating ?level of mental >>> functioning?? I would say that is >>> something with which psychology has had >>> some difficulty. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> /"I may say that whenever I meet >>> Mrs.?Seligman or?Dr. Lowie or discuss >>> matters?with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, >>> I?become at?once?aware that my partner >>> does not understand anything in the >>> matter, and I end usually?with >>> the?feeling that this also applies to >>> myself? (Malinowski, 1930)/ >>> >>> On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, >>> Simangele Mayisela >>> >> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> Further, ?I still have more >>> questions, however it does appear to >>> me that at the heart of the >>> ?hypothesis? of the scientific >>> question are the ?levels? of mental >>> development which are associated to >>> ?skin colour?, with little >>> consideration of the historical >>> oppression that created the >>> ?backwards? economies that keep the >>> third of the global population is >>> what appears to be of low level of >>> mental functioning. The question is >>> more about ?what is the quality of >>> the contents of what is embodies by >>> the black skin or a white skin?? >>> with the aim to find evidence for >>> the difference. >>> >>> Just to share, lately? have been >>> viewing James Lindsay argument on >>> what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous >>> scientific? and ?scholarship? ?vs? >>> popular narratives that are a >>> propaganda based on Critical Theory, >>> which are taking over academy. Here >>> is one his videos that you may want >>> to view ? if you are Marxist at >>> heart be warned that you may be >>> challenged by Lindsay?s argument on >>> ideologies. >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!Vbo2U2NxoEFafJtBUR40AtvkBVYT1KAKn_9LlHZa_fRicMs7nWhBIVZhw2mOPL5kYgmhGQ$ >>> >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> S?ma >>> >>> *From:* Simangele Mayisela >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, >>> Activity >> > >>> *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your >>> views on a question. >>> >>> Dear Alfredo >>> >>> Thank you for taking my attention of >>> ?level? which is crucial to >>> rendering the question ?scientific?. >>> But couple with level, which could >>> be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or >>> ?superior? or ?inferior? would >>> account for ?difference?. As much as >>> the question to be asked should be >>> about the ?ideological basis? , I >>> think the ?hypothesis? is likely to >>> be linked to the ?ideolody? as the >>> hypothesis serves as springboard >>> from which the scientist works from, >>> which informs where the person ?will >>> land ?in terms of the ideas. >>> >>> Nevertheless thank you for the >>> clarification. I see what you mean ? >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> S?ma >>> >> -- >> >> >> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under >> similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the >> same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious >> license and oppression over again, and it will >> surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. >> C.Dickens. >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Vbo2U2NxoEFafJtBUR40AtvkBVYT1KAKn_9LlHZa_fRicMs7nWhBIVZhw2mOPL6_qTr_Lg$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu >> . >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu >> . >> >> >> > > > -- > > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under > similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same > tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license > and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Vbo2U2NxoEFafJtBUR40AtvkBVYT1KAKn_9LlHZa_fRicMs7nWhBIVZhw2mOPL6_qTr_Lg$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu > . > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200701/96197d4a/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Jun 30 22:41:39 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 14:41:39 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: David-- If we are talking about Vygotsky, "structuralist psychology" refers to the current we now call Gestaltism, and structuralist methods are in contrast to functional and to genetic methods. As Halliday used to say function explains how structure changes, but only history can explain how function changes. I believe your man Walkerdine has not read Capital. Marx says: "If we may take an example from outside the sphere of production of material objects, a schoolmaster is a productive labourer when, in addition to belabouring the heads of his scholars, he works like a horse to enrich the school proprietor. That the latter has laid out his capital in a teaching factory, instead of in a sausage factory, does not alter the relation." (p. 359). The views that Walkerdine lays out are essentially Rousseauvian and not Marxist at all. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TDxJs9RUMlrW2fxtGBwryS9dFWYit6bRlYXoxgQNSfd813N4HL5qJE37hr2lZBsur0sVrg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TDxJs9RUMlrW2fxtGBwryS9dFWYit6bRlYXoxgQNSfd813N4HL5qJE37hr2lZBsx2gTpzA$ On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:29 PM David H Kirshner wrote: > Andy, > > > > I?m not schooled in the technical definitions of structuralism or > poststructuralism. From odd readings here and there (e.g., Walkerdine, > 1990, quoted below), I come to a sense of structuralism as seeking to > formulate overarching explanatory systems, and of poststructuralism as > resisting universal perspectivizing. So, for instance, I take much of the > history of the physical sciences and mathematics (predating the 20th > century) to be structuralist ventures, with discovery of inherent > limitations to those projects as embodied in the Heisenberg Uncertainty > Principle, Russell?s Paradox, and Godel?s Incompleteness Theorem helping to > give rise to poststructural thought. > > > > Returning to the interest Mike expressed in ?transformational agency,? > the following quote from Walkerdine helps me locate Marxism within the > structuralist tradition, particularly as counterpoised with poststructural > interpretations of liberation. > > > > I shall draw > > out certain contradictions for traditional Marxist approaches to the > > relations of power within educational institutions. One such view is that > > education, as a bourgeois institution, places teachers in a position of > > power from which they can oppress children, who are institutionally > > powerless. To somewhat overstate the case: the teacher, powerful in a > > bourgeois educational institution, is in a position to oppress children, > > whose resistance to that power, like all resistance, is understood as > > ultimately progressive rather than contradictory. Children's movements > > have tended to understand resistance in terms of 'rights' or 'liberation'. > > Similarly, certain feminist accounts have used the psychological concepts > > of 'role' and 'stereotype' to understand women and girls as unitary > > subjects whose economic dependence, powerlessness and physical weak- > > ness are reflected in their production as 'passive' , 'weak' , and > > 'dependent' individuals. While such accounts have been extremely > > important in helping to develop Marxist and feminist practices, I want to > > pinpoint some of the reasons why such analyses might not be as helpful > > as we might previously have supposed in understanding the phenomena > > presented here. I want to show, using examples from classroom practice, > > that both female teachers and small girls are not unitary subjects uniquely > > positioned, but are produced as a nexus of subjectivities, in relations of > > power which are constantly shifting, rendering them at one moment > > powerful and at another powerless. 2 > > Additionally, I want to argue that while an understanding of resist- > > ance is clearly important, we cannot read every resistance as having > > revolutionary effects; sometimes resistances have 'reactionary' effects. > > Resistance is not just struggle against the oppression of a static power > > (and therefore potentially revolutionary simply because it is struggle > > against the monolith); relations of power and resistance are continually > > reproduced, in continual struggle and constantly shifting. (Walkerdine, > 1990, pp. 2-3) > > > > 2. For example, see criticisms of the notion of the unitary subject of > psychology and > > the assertion of the necessity for an understanding of individuals as a > 'nexus of > > subjectivities' in Adlam, et al, ' > > > > Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. In V. > Walkerdine (Ed.), *Schoolgirl fictions* (pp. 3-15). London: Verso. > Reprinted from *Screen Education, 38*, 14-24, 1981. > > > > David > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *mike cole > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 10:43 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with the > distinctions you are making? > > Mike > > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the beginning > of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That > there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable, and > likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism" and > "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree > that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the > development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." > > - > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!TDxJs9RUMlrW2fxtGBwryS9dFWYit6bRlYXoxgQNSfd813N4HL5qJE37hr2lZBvtws4fSg$ > > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: > > Mike, > > Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression is > that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been > influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true > poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with > the implications of such a turn. > > David > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > *On Behalf Of *mike cole > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism one > way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? > > Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on > transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky > > and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? > > > > mike > > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner wrote: > > S?ma et al., > > The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by crosscurrents > of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and poststructuralist > thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have been wronged. In a > modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able to be aligned with > an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that authorizes its > significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, is such a > structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a structuralist project > as it is not clear that critical theorists have arrived at consensus about > the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism abandon the structuralist > mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock structural perspective that can > encompass the variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood > is simply my perspective, and the project of establishing its viability is > purely a political one. Any of us can experience ourselves as victims, and > assert a political claim to that effect. Interestingly, it is the political > Right that embodies this poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the > political Left that orients itself in structuralism. > > David > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > > > Hi Annalisa and colleagues > > > > Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable > manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for > conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum > such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response > below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. > > > > Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this > situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then > ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? > the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are > victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. > Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the > context under which? survivors? continue to survive. > > > > Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to name, > and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the > conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and > controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. > > > > There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of > different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors > have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with > new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving > them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, > including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more > interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by > intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the > oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the > ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly > game Tameka Jones Young > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!TDxJs9RUMlrW2fxtGBwryS9dFWYit6bRlYXoxgQNSfd813N4HL5qJE37hr2lZBu7PDAVoA$ > > (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why > ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who > are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? > ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome > protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for > this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though > her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her > monopoly analogy worth my reflection. > > > > I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural > Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, > I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these > theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development > it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe > one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how > Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in > communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance > Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. > > > > It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can > continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. > What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. > I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious > ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times > pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. > > > > > > Regards > > S?ma > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar > *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Hello S'ma and venerable others, > > > > I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a > "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" > around the shoulders, etc. > > > > It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as > grievous as Holocaust deniers. > > > > Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended > to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught > and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as > nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the > veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which > in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not > earned through merit. > > > > When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for > someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is > done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as > if they have no right to do so. > > > > So who has the right to use this word "victim"? > > > > > > I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word > "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. > > > > Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate > victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something > unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and > even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful > effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). > > > > Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? > > > > Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of > resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we > consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show > (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult > circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their > wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk > about social Darwinism! > > > > I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about > the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, > neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. > > > > Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: > > 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or > agency: a victim of an automobile accident. > 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions > or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a > victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an > optical illusion. > 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war > victims. > 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. > > When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: > > casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, > gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, > pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, > underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured > party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. > > > > I did the same for the term survivor: > > 1. a person or thing that survives. > 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or > others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. > 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of > opposition, hardship, or setbacks. > > Synoymns: > > balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, > remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts > > The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most > recent accepted meaning? > > > > It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and > survivors to be considered mere leftovers. > > > > Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries > to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what > criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own > unearned benefit and advancement? > > > > Is that fitness or crime? > > > > > > > > t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. > > > > > > What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered > against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word > without these undertowing currents of meaning? > > > > We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or > "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I > am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My > ancestors were enslaved by yours." > > > > And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate > individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in > this fashion. > > > > Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an > oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am > a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors > enslaved yours." > > > > The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and > descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to > say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This > happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." > > > > While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), > who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, > I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those > who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase > like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of > shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just > they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that > Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering > perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. > > > > Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in > past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means > justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la > vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from > "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? > > > > Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice > to meet the crime? > > > > In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, > but now it seems it is too slowly. > > > > This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about > power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems > unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? > > > > Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and > their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or > the promotion of eugenics. > > > > I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of > the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George > W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's > 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the > kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. > > > > Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) > oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection > to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the > injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed > me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that > now. I see the errors of my ways." > > > > It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk > percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the > past, let's move on." > > > > There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, > and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. > > Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? > > > > I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. > Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. > > > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Hi Andy and Alfredo > > > > Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I > referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between > the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in > relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James > Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the > video) is this: > > > > Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with > its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, > Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement > which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and > ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study > ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how > unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are > situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the > system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also > tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces > mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which > we have to be concerned about. > > > > The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am > not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, > I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of > ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an > idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we > aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives > associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with > ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein > bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the > name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological > connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in > specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental > functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected > ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like > a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( > po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ > > ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan > Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, > unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying > adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific > tools?). > > > > My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources > that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I > referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? > knowledge?. > > > > It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for the > Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for > ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we take > into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for > Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical > Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is > generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge > accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to > advance the survival of humanity. > > > > Regards, > > Simangele > > > > > > > > > > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or > "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive > movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a > sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at > stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. > There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called > philanthropy and charity. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss > what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video > critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance > studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this > conversation! > > > > In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so > well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions > Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social > justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into > self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with > Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, > as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether > Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory > scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an > example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * > on behalf of Martin Packer > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Hi Simangele, > > > > How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is > something with which psychology has had some difficulty. > > > > Martin > > > > *"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss > matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my > partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with > the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930)* > > > > > > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela < > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote: > > > > Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that > at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the > ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with > little consideration of the historical oppression that created the > ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what > appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more > about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black > skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. > > > > Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is > ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular > narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking > over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are > Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument > on ideologies. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!TDxJs9RUMlrW2fxtGBwryS9dFWYit6bRlYXoxgQNSfd813N4HL5qJE37hr2lZBtgD1jpuw$ > > > > > Regards > > S?ma > > > > > > > > *From:* Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear Alfredo > > > > Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering > the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies > as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for > ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the > ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to > the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the > scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms > of the ideas. > > > > Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? > > Regards, > > S?ma > > > > -- > > *Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and > it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens.* > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TDxJs9RUMlrW2fxtGBwryS9dFWYit6bRlYXoxgQNSfd813N4HL5qJE37hr2lZBsEWOL4-g$ > > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu > > . > > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > . > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200701/6a16da7d/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Jun 30 23:39:32 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 06:39:32 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> , , Message-ID: Dear S'ma, David, Henry, Mike, and venerable others, I am not in a place to look at the facebook link, though I shall try to review it in the coming days. I think one of the "projects" of my reply to yours, S'ma, is why is it "wrong" to have a "victim mentality"? If one has indeed been a victim? I feel that there is a denigration of the word "victim" that requires rehabilitation by purging the word of this denigration. A victim implies a perpetrator taking advantage by exercise of blatant power or by covert stealth and manipulation. That is accurately descriptive. As I have started to read about the effects of trauma upon a person, I feel that "victim mentality" is a viable phrase to explain a state of mind in the victim that is a natural response to harm, in the same way that if I were to cut my finger, it will bleed. To remove from language a naming of this effect is like refusing to describe bleeding as "bleeding" which then seems to have a project ever more of denying that bleeding even happens. But when I cut my finger, bleeding does not go on forever. Though I suppose one can die from bleeding out with a deep enough wound, at some point if the injury is not fatal,the bleeding staunches and the healing begins. One of the aspects that I feel is a very real experience is the person not realizing that something has even happened, there is a mystical experience as if being in a dream. A questioning of reality. Perhaps I might frame what I mean if we contemplate where we were when we first learned the first tower of the World Trade Center had suffered impact by a plane. Then, where we were when the second one hit the other tower. When I say "were we were" I refer to a state of mind, than a geographical location. Them where were we when the towers collapsed? When we crossed each of the stations of suffering that marked what we know as 9/11? For many of us, which might possibly include conspiracy theorists, we will never know what exactly happened or why. I think that that is what makes "victim" an appropriate and just word, because the state of mind would not exist but for the perpetrator of violence upon the agency of the victim. We were all victims in some way by the events of 9/11, and I feel that's because we are all connected to one another. We each suffered in different degrees based upon our orientation to the events. That space or gap or state of mind of not knowing, of ignorance and disassociation from reality, which a victim experiences cognitively, is monstrously painful because the mind works hard to try to "make sense" of what happened. It wants to fill in the gap. In order to transcend the crime committed, the victim must fill that space on one's own in one's own time; that self-talk that frames one's emotional experiences. Just as one must rehabilitate from a surgery or illness, the injured party must be provided accommodation to allow for genuine healing to manifest. What is so outrageous is when the perpetrators try to control that narrative of healing to which the victim must arrive independently and without influence of the perpetrator, to fill that gap. That is what gaslighting is when the narrative is controlled by the perpetrator, or those who would deny the crime ever happened. That's how further injury is committed against the victim. Such talk might be, "Well, what were you doing walking out there by yourself in the middle of the night. You were asking to be raped if you were wearing that. You should have known better." Etc. What I am considering (and I am grateful for the collaborative spirit that you bring in this exploration to allow my consideration), is how few people seem capable of witnessing the suffering of others. This seems especially true for those who are in positions of power and who also abuse that position. If a person is truly powerful, inherently powerful, then would it matter at all if they harmed another person less powerful, if such were the nature of power? Why shouldn't they be able to witness the destruction of the agency without grimacing? Yet, when we do see examples of that kind of display of power, we find such a person sadistic, heartless, brutish, etc. I am recalling the Susan Sontag book of essays On Regarding the Pain of Others, and I wish I could retrieve the book to read it again in the context of this discussion... Oh see here! I have found it online here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://monoskop.org/images/a/a6/Sontag_Susan_2003_Regarding_the_Pain_of_Others.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!UNsCwa_P3NLoHGda5RUV9gj2AFd-9SVJZEXsQ-9oDmp5z42PwIFCAhISTWWMSEn1f3mo8Q$ I have set up myself some homework for further contemplation and reflection to be sure. Anyway, to resume the bead of my thought that I had started, I believe that the reason that a person with power who is incapable of rendering, in one's mind, the suffering and pain of another has to do with capacity. That's what makes them a "person with power," rather than a "powerful person." This lack of capacity is trauma in a negative image of itself. I pose it that way because the trauma is not and cannot be the same as the trauma of the victim. I pose it that way because no one escapes violence (or crime) unscathed (which I think was the point the Marquis de Sade was attempting to make in turning the language of power into a grammar and syntax of bodies and emotions). The perpetrator suffers too, but differently. Not that I am trying to generate a pool of sympathy for perpetrators. But I say it only to provide an acknowledgement that their lack of capacity produces numbness and denial, and a lifelong project of lying to oneself to legitimize their "right" or even "obligation" to harm another. It is trauma, but in a negative form (negative as in photography, in which the negative image produces the positive image through a reflection or obstruction of light). Perhaps it is worse for the perpetrator than the victim, because of this "perspective" that David mentions in his post. Still, I do not believe that a victim is only about me "being a victim." I can witness party A perpetrating an injustice upon party B and say to myself, "party B is a victim of party A." And orient myself empathically to each party, accordingly. I can be traumatized, for example, by the violent pornography of the footage released by Wikileaks of the Reuters journalists being gunned down by American soldiers in Iraq. (I actually did feel traumatized from that footage). I have no issue in myself calling the Reuters journalists and other Iraqis gunned down "victims". My outrage was justified against callous perpetrators, which includes outrage toward the leadership of my country. I just now wonder if this might be BECAUSE we were viewing the footage from the point of view of the soldiers, not the individuals in the street unwittingly walking into the crosshairs of assasination. I can't say exactly. So I trust perspective is important in the conception of understanding victims and their pain, but I do not agree that I can only use it when referring to whether I am a victim (or not). That seems part of the trap of denial of the dynamic of witnessing harm of a victim, whether me or someone else. That is why I feel that the word meaning for "victim" requires rehabilitation and its baggage needs to be thrown off the train, posthaste! It has to do, as I continue to reflect, with being articulate in a language of emotion and feeling. Those who hold power and possess empathy and compassion can attain a stature of being beloved, while those who hold power sans a language of emotion and feeling seem to be reviled or feared. Does that seem to hold water? Can the same be said of a victim? One who possess a language of empathy and compassion will go farther in healing and overcoming the act, than one who doesn't possess that ability. Perhaps this is why Spinoza is one to whom we circle back, while we grind the lens to see ourselves just a little bit better. He was attempting to understand emotion as a consequence of activities outside the person, making them passive, or what we might call in this conversation, a victim of circumstances beyond one's control or agency. This is why I feel "survivor" is somehow lacking, though perhaps it is an adequate word for afterwards, when one must resolve to live on despite the injustice. It is what is left over. I just don't like the word because one can be a survivor without experiencing justice or being made whole. "Survivor" seems to wash away the act that had been committed against the person, and thereby also the responsibility of perpetrator. Or am I thinking about this in the wrong way? How can language heal this harm perpetrated upon victims just being victims and perpetrators just being perpetrators? If only so justice can just be justice? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 4:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. [EXTERNAL] Hi Annalisa and colleagues Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the context under which? survivors? continue to survive. Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly game Tameka Jones Young https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!UNsCwa_P3NLoHGda5RUV9gj2AFd-9SVJZEXsQ-9oDmp5z42PwIFCAhISTWWMSEmBu4iXrw$ (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her monopoly analogy worth my reflection. I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. Regards S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hello S'ma and venerable others, I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" around the shoulders, etc. It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as grievous as Holocaust deniers. Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not earned through merit. When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as if they have no right to do so. So who has the right to use this word "victim"? I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk about social Darwinism! I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident. 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical illusion. 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war victims. 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. I did the same for the term survivor: 1. a person or thing that survives. 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks. Synoymns: balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most recent accepted meaning? It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be considered mere leftovers. Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own unearned benefit and advancement? Is that fitness or crime? t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word without these undertowing currents of meaning? We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My ancestors were enslaved by yours." And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in this fashion. Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors enslaved yours." The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice to meet the crime? In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or the promotion of eugenics. I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that now. I see the errors of my ways." It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the past, let's move on." There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. [EXTERNAL] Hi Andy and Alfredo Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which we have to be concerned about. The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific tools?). My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. Regards, Simangele simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!UNsCwa_P3NLoHGda5RUV9gj2AFd-9SVJZEXsQ-9oDmp5z42PwIFCAhISTWWMSElksE9Ncw$ Regards S?ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear S?ma, I am not sure anyone could provide that ?scientific? basis without first explaining what is meant by ?level,? and most importantly, why and how such explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *ideological* basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not finding the ?scientific? basis but the how and why that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Friends! I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the ?the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two.? Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference. Regards, S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. This is horribly troubling Racist eugenics Please stop Phillip Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear Prof. David, Your message reads... "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. Point 1 If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it?.. as if it is founded on the color of the skin. Here I disagree and simply say?. Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that ?it is justified?. Please, try to understand me?. ?Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there? OR ?If it is justified OR not justified? is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said ?filth? does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned ?Level difference?. Point 2 You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out? ?The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis.? I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe? an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. Regards, Harshad Dave On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: I agree Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Mr. Dave: I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UNsCwa_P3NLoHGda5RUV9gj2AFd-9SVJZEXsQ-9oDmp5z42PwIFCAhISTWWMSEl2RM_Hvw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UNsCwa_P3NLoHGda5RUV9gj2AFd-9SVJZEXsQ-9oDmp5z42PwIFCAhISTWWMSEkDFsI4ig$ On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: David? Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. Point 1: When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. Point 2: Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- ?Where the shoe pinches?? I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. [Go to page 28 and it starts ? ?It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both????.? It ends at page no. 35 ? ????. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.?] The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. Point 3: As concluded by David, ???but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts??? I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by ?cast culture? but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of ?cast culture?. Regards, Harshad Dave On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony-- I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UNsCwa_P3NLoHGda5RUV9gj2AFd-9SVJZEXsQ-9oDmp5z42PwIFCAhISTWWMSEl2RM_Hvw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UNsCwa_P3NLoHGda5RUV9gj2AFd-9SVJZEXsQ-9oDmp5z42PwIFCAhISTWWMSEkDFsI4ig$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. Anthony On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. Hi, This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word ?apartheid? just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word ?apartheid?, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra ? The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. There are two most probable answers. 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois ? September 18, 1858. ?I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.? Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. Regards, Harshad Dave On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Dear Harshad: I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UNsCwa_P3NLoHGda5RUV9gj2AFd-9SVJZEXsQ-9oDmp5z42PwIFCAhISTWWMSEl2RM_Hvw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UNsCwa_P3NLoHGda5RUV9gj2AFd-9SVJZEXsQ-9oDmp5z42PwIFCAhISTWWMSEkDFsI4ig$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear all there, We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. Regards, Harshad Dave This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200701/c97fe7b7/attachment.html From dkirsh@lsu.edu Tue Jun 30 23:44:36 2020 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 06:44:36 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: David, The term ?structural? has many uses in academia that are not directly tied to the structural/poststructural issues under consideration. For instance, ?structural psychology? is the name given to a theory of consciousness developed by Wilhelm Wundt and Edward Titchener. Perhaps it also is used in relation to Gestalt psychology. Valerie Walkerdine was referencing ?traditional Marxist approaches to the relations of power within educational institutions,? not Marx?s writings, per se, though I?m confident she is very familiar with them. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 12:42 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. David-- If we are talking about Vygotsky, "structuralist psychology" refers to the current we now call Gestaltism, and structuralist methods are in contrast to functional and to genetic methods. As Halliday used to say function explains how structure changes, but only history can explain how function changes. I believe your man Walkerdine has not read Capital. Marx says: "If we may take an example from outside the sphere of production of material objects, a schoolmaster is a productive labourer when, in addition to belabouring the heads of his scholars, he works like a horse to enrich the school proprietor. That the latter has laid out his capital in a teaching factory, instead of in a sausage factory, does not alter the relation." (p. 359). The views that Walkerdine lays out are essentially Rousseauvian and not Marxist at all. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VF8mLaihINlpIUBzJAuReskKhxNEd9m5HfpjbJwKnJUzVdovJ5pZzAMi_c_vuQtKglVCRg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VF8mLaihINlpIUBzJAuReskKhxNEd9m5HfpjbJwKnJUzVdovJ5pZzAMi_c_vuQsYUSlwhg$ On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:29 PM David H Kirshner > wrote: Andy, I?m not schooled in the technical definitions of structuralism or poststructuralism. From odd readings here and there (e.g., Walkerdine, 1990, quoted below), I come to a sense of structuralism as seeking to formulate overarching explanatory systems, and of poststructuralism as resisting universal perspectivizing. So, for instance, I take much of the history of the physical sciences and mathematics (predating the 20th century) to be structuralist ventures, with discovery of inherent limitations to those projects as embodied in the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, Russell?s Paradox, and Godel?s Incompleteness Theorem helping to give rise to poststructural thought. Returning to the interest Mike expressed in ?transformational agency,? the following quote from Walkerdine helps me locate Marxism within the structuralist tradition, particularly as counterpoised with poststructural interpretations of liberation. I shall draw out certain contradictions for traditional Marxist approaches to the relations of power within educational institutions. One such view is that education, as a bourgeois institution, places teachers in a position of power from which they can oppress children, who are institutionally powerless. To somewhat overstate the case: the teacher, powerful in a bourgeois educational institution, is in a position to oppress children, whose resistance to that power, like all resistance, is understood as ultimately progressive rather than contradictory. Children's movements have tended to understand resistance in terms of 'rights' or 'liberation'. Similarly, certain feminist accounts have used the psychological concepts of 'role' and 'stereotype' to understand women and girls as unitary subjects whose economic dependence, powerlessness and physical weak- ness are reflected in their production as 'passive' , 'weak' , and 'dependent' individuals. While such accounts have been extremely important in helping to develop Marxist and feminist practices, I want to pinpoint some of the reasons why such analyses might not be as helpful as we might previously have supposed in understanding the phenomena presented here. I want to show, using examples from classroom practice, that both female teachers and small girls are not unitary subjects uniquely positioned, but are produced as a nexus of subjectivities, in relations of power which are constantly shifting, rendering them at one moment powerful and at another powerless. 2 Additionally, I want to argue that while an understanding of resist- ance is clearly important, we cannot read every resistance as having revolutionary effects; sometimes resistances have 'reactionary' effects. Resistance is not just struggle against the oppression of a static power (and therefore potentially revolutionary simply because it is struggle against the monolith); relations of power and resistance are continually reproduced, in continual struggle and constantly shifting. (Walkerdine, 1990, pp. 2-3) 2. For example, see criticisms of the notion of the unitary subject of psychology and the assertion of the necessity for an understanding of individuals as a 'nexus of subjectivities' in Adlam, et al, ' Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. In V. Walkerdine (Ed.), Schoolgirl fictions (pp. 3-15). London: Verso. Reprinted from Screen Education, 38, 14-24, 1981. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 10:43 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with the distinctions you are making? Mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the beginning of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable, and likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism" and "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." * https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!VF8mLaihINlpIUBzJAuReskKhxNEd9m5HfpjbJwKnJUzVdovJ5pZzAMi_c_vuQuhxhK-lg$ Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: Mike, Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression is that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with the implications of such a turn. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism one way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner > wrote: S?ma et al., The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by crosscurrents of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have been wronged. In a modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able to be aligned with an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that authorizes its significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, is such a structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a structuralist project as it is not clear that critical theorists have arrived at consensus about the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism abandon the structuralist mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock structural perspective that can encompass the variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood is simply my perspective, and the project of establishing its viability is purely a political one. Any of us can experience ourselves as victims, and assert a political claim to that effect. Interestingly, it is the political Right that embodies this poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the political Left that orients itself in structuralism. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Annalisa and colleagues Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the context under which? survivors? continue to survive. Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly game Tameka Jones Young https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!VF8mLaihINlpIUBzJAuReskKhxNEd9m5HfpjbJwKnJUzVdovJ5pZzAMi_c_vuQslWIVvRw$ (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her monopoly analogy worth my reflection. I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. Regards S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hello S'ma and venerable others, I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" around the shoulders, etc. It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as grievous as Holocaust deniers. Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not earned through merit. When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as if they have no right to do so. So who has the right to use this word "victim"? I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk about social Darwinism! I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident. 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical illusion. 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war victims. 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. I did the same for the term survivor: 1. a person or thing that survives. 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks. Synoymns: balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most recent accepted meaning? It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be considered mere leftovers. Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own unearned benefit and advancement? Is that fitness or crime? t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word without these undertowing currents of meaning? We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My ancestors were enslaved by yours." And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in this fashion. Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors enslaved yours." The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice to meet the crime? In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or the promotion of eugenics. I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that now. I see the errors of my ways." It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the past, let's move on." There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. [EXTERNAL] Hi Andy and Alfredo Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which we have to be concerned about. The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific tools?). My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. Regards, Simangele simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!VF8mLaihINlpIUBzJAuReskKhxNEd9m5HfpjbJwKnJUzVdovJ5pZzAMi_c_vuQsFKVXcNQ$ Regards S?ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S?ma -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VF8mLaihINlpIUBzJAuReskKhxNEd9m5HfpjbJwKnJUzVdovJ5pZzAMi_c_vuQtW2FEGTA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200701/32d9749f/attachment.html