[Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes?
Andy Blunden
andyb@marxists.org
Thu Jul 23 22:04:31 PDT 2020
There is nothing "crude" about Hegel's Philosophy of Spirit.
It has almost innumerable grades of mind between the
indeterminate "feeling" which might cause a new-born to cry
without any kind of awareness, up to political action to
resolve the social problem at the root of the "disturbance."
All these are states of a whole body and its relation to its
environment. Hegel does talk about "expulsion" where are
person takes action - shouting, sobbing, .. - to relieve the
feeling, a process which can be more or less rational. But
he does not have a mental state over there and a body over
there, or one expressing itself in the other. Probably my
analogy of hand-waving was inappropriate. That's obviously
not the same as your hair standing on end when you get a
creepy feeling or the stomach ache which tells you it's
dinner time.
andy
------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Hegel for Social Movements <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u5bbHvFUA$ >
Home Page <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u6pRGACdQ$ >
On 24/07/2020 7:01 am, David Kellogg wrote:
> Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The
> James-Lange theory is what it is: you perceive something,
> your viscera or vasomotor muscles respond, and the emotion
> is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, at any
> rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual response.
>
> I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation of
> the theory is crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) agree
> that an emotion is "expressed". An emotion is not a mental
> state of affairs expressed in physiological changes in the
> viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a change in the
> visceral/vascular state of affairs expressed in a mental
> one. (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't
> agree with Andy's waving analogy....)
>
> Spinoza uses the term "affect" or "affection" instead. It
> means more or less what it sounds like: the way in which a
> body is affected by the environment and vice versa. This
> can either increase or decrease the potential for a body
> for activity. The problem is that in order to make this a
> theory of specifically human emotions, this activity has
> to include the "activity" of making meanings, and Spinoza
> can't seem to address THAT issue without slipping into
> psycho-physical parallelism. (Halliday can, though....)
> :
> David Kellogg
> Sangmyung University
>
> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a
> manifesto.
> Outlines, Spring 2020
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u6yF54jiw$
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QLEoxL29F3RatvgkaIG1vsUhEgaWkdE-vCDs0vMv8gD5JVN33eCV8_ZTlPUZ5zPbYeeQHQ$>
> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. Vygotsky's
> Pedological Works/ /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/"
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u5vc6I2uA$
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QLEoxL29F3RatvgkaIG1vsUhEgaWkdE-vCDs0vMv8gD5JVN33eCV8_ZTlPUZ5zOCrzEKFA$>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden
> <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>
> No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are
> subordinate parts of the whole organism. The emotion
> /is/ the state of a whole organism, in particular, a
> mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we
> wave to someone.
>
> andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!W1x0zBm8fkXksY2M64OKgpNL_TPx1e8eTQyWJEtxUBueZNW1leqHSuR9yBEWIW_pdhtxwg$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!W1x0zBm8fkXksY2M64OKgpNL_TPx1e8eTQyWJEtxUBueZNW1leqHSuR9yBEWIW9bL-5LGQ$>
>
> On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote:
>> Thanks, Andy--this is it!
>>
>> "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated
>> merely as parts subservient to the animal organism;
>> but they form at the same time a physical system for
>> the expression of mental states, and in this way they
>> get quite another interpretation."
>>
>> The only problem is the word "expression". In the
>> James-Lange theory, the mental states are the
>> expression of the viscera and the organs. But perhaps
>> that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and
>> organs are a system that expresses a state which we
>> interpret as an emotion.
>>
>> (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy
>> divorce and remarking, when I worried that he was
>> losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart that
>> was broken but his stomach....)
>>
>>
>> David Kellogg
>> Sangmyung University
>>
>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and
>> a manifesto.
>> Outlines, Spring 2020
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u6yF54jiw$
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TttD-npmriYNiq_GkGHggjRPJwdnhAwRmpOFFclfTRlXC2fTkBviD-tAkaQPh-R8158beQ$>
>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S.
>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One:
>> Foundations of Pedology/"
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u5vc6I2uA$
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TttD-npmriYNiq_GkGHggjRPJwdnhAwRmpOFFclfTRlXC2fTkBviD-tAkaQPh-Q7yWc-iw$>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden
>> <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>>
>> If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll
>> probably be interested in 402 as well.
>>
>> One other possibility: The "official" way of
>> citing Hegel nowadays is to cite the page no. in
>> the authoritative version of /Hegel Werke/. The
>> German word for "page" is /Seite/, so you would
>> say "S. 401" of the /Enc/, This turns out also to
>> be an interesting passage of the Subjective
>> Spirit, on Self-consciousness, concerned with the
>> infamous Master-Slave dialectic, though in a much
>> reduced form, not like in the /Phenomenology of
>> Spirit/.
>>
>> See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF,
>> in German. English translation is here:
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u4aW3ZSXQ$
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!V5yS3WiqsE4SSOtcY1SJElXpnzzhFH035NnO1lZ49z3QJYH4kQO68Wccu2Y86C642xXiTQ$>
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Hegel for Social Movements
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!V5yS3WiqsE4SSOtcY1SJElXpnzzhFH035NnO1lZ49z3QJYH4kQO68Wccu2Y86C4MltIy3g$>
>> Home Page
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!V5yS3WiqsE4SSOtcY1SJElXpnzzhFH035NnO1lZ49z3QJYH4kQO68Wccu2Y86C7AtYM8hA$>
>>
>> On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>
>>> The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of
>>> the Encyclopaedia, itself composed of three parts:
>>>
>>> * Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken
>>> as Psychology
>>> * Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as
>>> Social Theory, and
>>> * Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion,
>>> Science and Philosophy.
>>>
>>> The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These
>>> do vary between 2 or editions, but these will
>>> be limited probably by those translated into
>>> English,
>>>
>>> I would start with the 1930 version"
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u5ZwbWgFw$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!UcUFXSCRfRh-5aW0-7m25WJ_9mWTvjd1a6nOCEuF7RAbpt35sEPbx38XfvY3Rj0va8zujw$>
>>> - a very early stage in the development of
>>> mental life, or.
>>>
>>> The 1817 version has
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u7A86_TiA$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!UcUFXSCRfRh-5aW0-7m25WJ_9mWTvjd1a6nOCEuF7RAbpt35sEPbx38XfvY3Rj24gIDBAA$>
>>> - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a
>>> version of Objective Spirit.
>>>
>>> The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it
>>> written by his students on the basis of Hegel's
>>> lectures which is a long discourse on the
>>> development of thinking from sensation. I am
>>> thinking this is what you mean. I will photocopy
>>> it and send it on.
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>> Hegel for Social Movements
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!UcUFXSCRfRh-5aW0-7m25WJ_9mWTvjd1a6nOCEuF7RAbpt35sEPbx38XfvY3Rj2Rs_DLCQ$>
>>> Home Page
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!UcUFXSCRfRh-5aW0-7m25WJ_9mWTvjd1a6nOCEuF7RAbpt35sEPbx38XfvY3Rj0L0JHIrA$>
>>>
>>> On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote:
>>>> We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on
>>>> Emotion" into one of those cartoon books that
>>>> are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?"
>>>> series). It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it
>>>> will have a lot of pictures with questions and
>>>> answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text.
>>>>
>>>> We've got to figure out the text first. For
>>>> example, what does John Dewey mean when he says:
>>>>
>>>> "On the historical side, it may be worth noting
>>>> that a crude anticipation of James' theory is
>>>> found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."?
>>>>
>>>> Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes?
>>>> If so, does the number refer to a page number
>>>> or a section or what?
>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u7QXgIFZg$
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!RLGVUv48gomTR2KJ99jcR-ruYcur4TKLR3u-7WeR_HhShIfYJpHP0U7EwICkluTj4uvZOA$>
>>>>
>>>> David Kellogg
>>>> Sangmyung University
>>>>
>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A
>>>> manual and a manifesto.
>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u6yF54jiw$
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RLGVUv48gomTR2KJ99jcR-ruYcur4TKLR3u-7WeR_HhShIfYJpHP0U7EwICkluSzhBnr9w$>
>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S.
>>>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One:
>>>> Foundations of Pedology/"
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u5vc6I2uA$
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RLGVUv48gomTR2KJ99jcR-ruYcur4TKLR3u-7WeR_HhShIfYJpHP0U7EwICkluRBlvE9VA$>
>>
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