[Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency
Huw Lloyd
huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
Thu Jul 2 00:13:17 PDT 2020
Cognitive coordination is realised with signs.
On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 01:02, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
> I am guessing that the aim of replacing "contradiction" with
> "disco-ordination" is locate the essential process in activity rather than
> logic. This is a worthy aim, but it is mistaken for two reasons. (1)
> Disco-ordination actually refers to behaviour rather than activity, that
> is, physical movements that are not necessarily fulfilling the actors'
> reasons or intentions. While such disco-ordination can disrupts norms and
> aggravate conflict, I don't believe they are impulses to social change,
> because the norms are not confronted by alternative norms - one has to look
> to why norms are not binding, and (2) People do things for reasons and
> insofar as people do different things for the same reason, which could
> possibly cause disco-ordination, I don't think this is threatening to a
> social formation. A certain amount of disco-ordination can be a stabilising
> thing.
>
> The fact is that social formations are ideal orders, not just patterns of
> movement.
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!UO3GqHpf8x54Sb0F4DVygXFECH7CEZ4Md34ReAC-0dwNTy61-MyqVAlQKrWeKY0gE4YOCw$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!UO3GqHpf8x54Sb0F4DVygXFECH7CEZ4Md34ReAC-0dwNTy61-MyqVAlQKrWeKY163svBLw$>
> On 2/07/2020 2:44 am, mike cole wrote:
>
> Andy et
>
> Is it permissible to substitute the term, discoordination for
> contradiction at least at the empirical level. We observe selective
> discoordination and infer the contradictions?
> mike
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:47 PM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>
>> "Contradiction" is only a coherent concept insofar as there is a "logic",
>> i.e., some institution. The general idea is that all logics contain such
>> contradictions. Institutions "try" to eliminate contradictions and
>> instantiate a "logic," but it turns out to be a losing battle.
>>
>> Nonetheless, an institution can live forever without changing despite
>> harbouring contradictions. The structure has to be subject to critique; the
>> contradictions have to be exposed and pursued. Movement and change is not
>> automatic.
>>
>> But yes, you are right, life, let alone social life, is impossible
>> without "institutions." We continue building that aeroplane as it flies
>> through the sky. Without institutions, norms, shared meanings,
>> collaborative activities, trust we will all die.
>>
>> Andy
>> ------------------------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Hegel for Social Movements
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!Vbo2U2NxoEFafJtBUR40AtvkBVYT1KAKn_9LlHZa_fRicMs7nWhBIVZhw2mOPL4Daq3h8g$>
>> Home Page
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!Vbo2U2NxoEFafJtBUR40AtvkBVYT1KAKn_9LlHZa_fRicMs7nWhBIVZhw2mOPL4TN5Z-gg$>
>> On 1/07/2020 2:16 pm, mike cole wrote:
>>
>> Andy -- You write that " The structure is *built around*
>> *contradictions" *
>> Would it be useful to say, also, that "structures *contain* the *contradictions
>> *minist in social life?
>> I am asking because i am thinking of institutions as sociocultural
>> structures that coordinate constituent
>> activities sufficiently to enable human biocuturalsocial re-production..
>> mike
>> and g'night!
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:06 PM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>>
>>> At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to have erected giant structures,
>>> which explicate how a social formation reproduces itself. I.e., they look
>>> like structuralists. But look again. At the heart of Hegel's *Logic *and
>>> Marx's *Capital *is a contradiction. The structure is built around
>>> *contradictions*. Under the impact of critique, at a certain point, the
>>> contradiction(s) unfolds as social transformation.
>>>
>>> Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to incorporate this idea in his system
>>> with its 4-levels of contradiction, and Ilyenkov explains in detail how
>>> Marx and Hegel did it in his 1960 monograph "The Abstract and Concrete in
>>> Marx's *Capital*."
>>>
>>> andy
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>> Hegel for Social Movements
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!VrJ6ogmE0QXMa3fMTmRp6YRhgzkXCIbZ0jSEci2-B6Gvtituftx_3TXEEt7HTGjjKVnsjw$>
>>> Home Page
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!VrJ6ogmE0QXMa3fMTmRp6YRhgzkXCIbZ0jSEci2-B6Gvtituftx_3TXEEt7HTGhl_8RK9w$>
>>> On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote:
>>>
>>> David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with the
>>> distinctions you are making?
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the
>>>> beginning of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly.
>>>> That there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable,
>>>> and likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism"
>>>> and "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree
>>>> that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the
>>>> development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist."
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!XVhsb1Mgo_CNcYqFwO5P8Gx4jIUBN2xvQZGxIf0_Z5wBpcgKqrBljmSuZaS3rkqYzt4Myg$
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!VhKMxK62RuHFPtSiafVaIhcBWu6Corlc8Jwv8StB7faR8dToPmZRX0GyVindCZxvdPoTlw$>
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>> Hegel for Social Movements
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!VhKMxK62RuHFPtSiafVaIhcBWu6Corlc8Jwv8StB7faR8dToPmZRX0GyVindCZwfv_bGZg$>
>>>> Home Page
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!VhKMxK62RuHFPtSiafVaIhcBWu6Corlc8Jwv8StB7faR8dToPmZRX0GyVindCZwpXrkYXg$>
>>>> On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Mike,
>>>>
>>>> Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression
>>>> is that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been
>>>> influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true
>>>> poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with
>>>> the implications of such a turn.
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On
>>>> Behalf Of *mike cole
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM
>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism
>>>> one way to deal with mutability or stability of structure?
>>>>
>>>> Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on
>>>> transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky
>>>>
>>>> and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> S’ma et al.,
>>>>
>>>> The issue of victimhood and “victim mentality” is roiled by
>>>> crosscurrents of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and
>>>> poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival—I have
>>>> been wronged. In a modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able
>>>> to be aligned with an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that
>>>> authorizes its significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory,
>>>> is such a structuralist account—or perhaps, more accurately, a
>>>> structuralist project as it is not clear that critical theorists have
>>>> arrived at consensus about the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism
>>>> abandon the structuralist mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock
>>>> structural perspective that can encompass the variety of local
>>>> perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood is simply my perspective, and
>>>> the project of establishing its viability is purely a political one. Any of
>>>> us can experience ourselves as victims, and assert a political claim to
>>>> that effect. Interestingly, it is the political Right that embodies this
>>>> poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the political Left that
>>>> orients itself in structuralism.
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <
>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On Behalf Of *Simangele Mayisela
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM
>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Annalisa and colleagues
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable
>>>> manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for
>>>> conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum
>>>> such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response
>>>> below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Your reference to the George Orwell’s 1984 is quite fitting in this
>>>> situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then
>>>> “gaslighted”, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality –
>>>> the victim mentality. It is short of saying “do not think” that you are
>>>> victimised even if there is “victimisation”, or you “were” victimised.
>>>> Perhaps we can accept better with “survivors” but the conditions and the
>>>> context under which” survivors” continue to survive.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, “Critical Theory” to
>>>> name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of “survivorhood”, where the
>>>> conditions for thinking about or “reflecting” surviving are determined and
>>>> controlled, even those who have power – “scientific or unscientific”.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of
>>>> different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors
>>>> have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with
>>>> new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving
>>>> them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal,
>>>> including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more
>>>> interest to me are those who keep trying using “enlightened” ways by
>>>> intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the
>>>> oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation – the
>>>> “doing something about their situation.” Using the analogy of a monopoly
>>>> game Tameka Jones Young
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!XVhsb1Mgo_CNcYqFwO5P8Gx4jIUBN2xvQZGxIf0_Z5wBpcgKqrBljmSuZaS3rkqAWvd-yw$
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fm.facebook.com*2Fstory.php*3Fstory_fbid*3D10158129729940856*26id*3D522190855__*3B!!Mih3wA!VX_uq7D0v43DAvM9nEC46ZStRpXjResRedVQUr9zhmuKYSRyZ34CmtUCYxxDViAr2G5ncg*24*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C3980c805ddde48ffcda308d81ce02bb5*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291096420272281*26sdata*3DwTDn9GfEmrNWmDs7ZKaYDsB6FZCeMUVhqsyWF9XzaeE*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LWe6MGJgg*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C793f465e2c064597a6ec08d81d52307d*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291586126470977&sdata=Uuw6Xaz8ott*2FqhOnnPfx1NVKD7viv29J7hBq6yDOtQU*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUqKioqKioqKioqKioqKiolJSoqKioqKioqJSUqJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5D4stnMCQ$>
>>>> (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights
>>>> why “victim mentality” is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those
>>>> who are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the
>>>> oppressors’ “survivors” if I may say so. The video is in the context of the
>>>> gruesome protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is
>>>> important for this conversation is the content, the meaning of her
>>>> articulations, though her expressions are accompanied by very strong
>>>> emotions, I found her monopoly analogy worth my reflection.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural
>>>> Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory,
>>>> I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these
>>>> theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development
>>>> it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe
>>>> one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how
>>>> Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in
>>>> communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but “Grievance
>>>> Studies” and threatening scientific thinking.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections
>>>> can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller
>>>> groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our
>>>> learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and
>>>> unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I
>>>> at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> S’ma
>>>>
>>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <
>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37
>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello S'ma and venerable others,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a
>>>> "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality"
>>>> around the shoulders, etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as
>>>> grievous as Holocaust deniers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is
>>>> intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have
>>>> been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might
>>>> be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping
>>>> off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying
>>>> logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is
>>>> usually not earned through merit.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for
>>>> someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is
>>>> done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as
>>>> if they have no right to do so.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So who has the right to use this word "victim"?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the
>>>> word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post
>>>> here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate
>>>> victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something
>>>> unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and
>>>> even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful
>>>> effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury").
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Can no one use the word "victim" anymore?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations
>>>> of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we
>>>> consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show
>>>> (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult
>>>> circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their
>>>> wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk
>>>> about social Darwinism!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken
>>>> about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice,
>>>> crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these:
>>>>
>>>> 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or
>>>> agency: a victim of an automobile accident.
>>>> 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own
>>>> emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal
>>>> agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a
>>>> victim of an optical illusion.
>>>> 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war
>>>> victims.
>>>> 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites.
>>>>
>>>> When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this:
>>>>
>>>> casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit,
>>>> gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn,
>>>> pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker,
>>>> underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured
>>>> party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I did the same for the term survivor:
>>>>
>>>> 1. a person or thing that survives.
>>>> 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants
>>>> or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others.
>>>> 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of
>>>> opposition, hardship, or setbacks.
>>>>
>>>> Synoymns:
>>>>
>>>> balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant,
>>>> remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts
>>>>
>>>> The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most
>>>> recent accepted meaning?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and
>>>> survivors to be considered mere leftovers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible
>>>> batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't
>>>> that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for
>>>> their own unearned benefit and advancement?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is that fitness or crime?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What then would one call an individual or group who has been
>>>> overpowered against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is
>>>> there a word without these undertowing currents of meaning?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed."
>>>> or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized,"
>>>> "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My
>>>> ancestors were enslaved by yours."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate
>>>> individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in
>>>> this fashion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an
>>>> oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am
>>>> a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors
>>>> enslaved yours."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual
>>>> and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As
>>>> if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or
>>>> "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the
>>>> video), who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge
>>>> to wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe
>>>> those who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a
>>>> phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow
>>>> of shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just
>>>> they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that
>>>> Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering
>>>> perpetrators and without further disempowering victims.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in
>>>> past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means
>>>> justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la
>>>> vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from
>>>> "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of
>>>> justice to meet the crime?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too
>>>> quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about
>>>> power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems
>>>> unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and
>>>> their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or
>>>> the promotion of eugenics.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name
>>>> of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the
>>>> George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was
>>>> Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to
>>>> create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of)
>>>> oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection
>>>> to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the
>>>> injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed
>>>> me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that
>>>> now. I see the errors of my ways."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk
>>>> percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the
>>>> past, let's move on."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid
>>>> self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd
>>>> sounding.
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best
>>>> attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there
>>>> above.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>
>>>> Annalisa
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <
>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Simangele Mayisela <
>>>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za>
>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM
>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> * [EXTERNAL]*
>>>>
>>>> Hi Andy and Alfredo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the
>>>> video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection
>>>> between the current conversation about “scientific” knowledge (in this case
>>>> in relation to “levels” of mental development and “ideology”) and James
>>>> Lindsay’s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the
>>>> video) is this:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose
>>>> with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory,
>>>> Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement
>>>> which they call “Grievance studies”, that perpetuates “self-pity” and
>>>> “victim mentality”. They further went on to produce fake scientific study
>>>> “dog rape culture and feminism” known as “hoax science” as evidence of how
>>>> unscientific “grievance studies” are; most of which are of course are
>>>> situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the
>>>> system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also
>>>> tainted by ideological predispositions – my fear is that this introduces
>>>> mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which
>>>> we have to be concerned about.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The reason I brought up Lindsay’s argument to the picture is: while I
>>>> am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay’s argument on Critical
>>>> Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the
>>>> influence of ideological position an individual or rather a “scientist”
>>>> holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe,
>>>> as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry,
>>>> the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be
>>>> tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and
>>>> Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the
>>>> masses in the name of “scientific evidence” – who in this day of rapid
>>>> technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather
>>>> than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have “primitive
>>>> mental functioning” or “unsophisticated” mental functioning, their
>>>> unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical
>>>> Theory like a “Trojan Horse”, that’s according to Bret Weinstein (
>>>> po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__http*3A*2F*2Fpo.nl*2F2020*2F06*2F20*2Fmust-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse*2F__*3B!!Mih3wA!QCD7ed0aCRAAlp7GdBrl0meYtbgs9bxM8e7Zg-RtwtTHcq2MHVUupotmjSed87zhqcRqSA*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C793f465e2c064597a6ec08d81d52307d*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291586126480974&sdata=OgkwRQ102d*2BW*2FUntR5jqwUD44OozPBxwZ495zg7NrtI*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5As5j44Bw$>
>>>> ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan
>>>> Horse is scientific evidence of “self-pity”, “victim mentality”,
>>>> unsophisticated mental functioning, … (we can add other classifying
>>>> adjectives to describe all those who have not developed “scientific
>>>> tools”).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources
>>>> that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I
>>>> referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about “scientific”
>>>> knowledge”.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire’s “Education for
>>>> the Oppressed” to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook
>>>> for “Education for the Depressed”, which is unfortunate, especially if we
>>>> take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for
>>>> Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical
>>>> Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is
>>>> generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge
>>>> accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to
>>>> advance the survival of humanity.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Simangele
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za
>>>>
>>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <
>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On Behalf Of *Andy Blunden
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37
>>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality"
>>>> or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive
>>>> movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a
>>>> sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at
>>>> stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination.
>>>> There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called
>>>> philanthropy and charity.
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>> Hegel for Social Movements
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!Mih3wA!WCK45j6Y4AscTY1OVN1quxD0_VDKtR1Y9u5SYoUgfTIzhGpvyRCeU6XnFqBCRESHVrtCaw*24*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C3980c805ddde48ffcda308d81ce02bb5*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291096420282275*26sdata*3DoX74*2BlINhl3MWMlwht3oCw5PTrjXyxOQX17*2BfVvxpf8*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LW-P86LBA*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C793f465e2c064597a6ec08d81d52307d*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291586126480974&sdata=IkuUm91U9GMwiGxaDJXhs8w5QnwrCsBLNDtBPb0z6pA*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUqKioqKioqKioqKiolJSoqKioqKioqJSUqKiolJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5BzBwex0g$>
>>>> Home Page
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fablunden*2Findex.htm__*3B!!Mih3wA!WCK45j6Y4AscTY1OVN1quxD0_VDKtR1Y9u5SYoUgfTIzhGpvyRCeU6XnFqBCREQ2rLbDLg*24*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C3980c805ddde48ffcda308d81ce02bb5*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291096420282275*26sdata*3D97yLyLrH0AJ5QXEU2RAXGWLVxXa6i54MPGgfam6vXFI*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LU90iyCdw*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C793f465e2c064597a6ec08d81d52307d*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291586126490969&sdata=NqHc8uV*2BR9b3*2BpgP4CeIG*2F8x8fTkOajO08luWCkeAzo*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUqKioqKioqKioqKiUlKioqKioqKiolJSolJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5Ck5wUnZA$>
>>>>
>>>> On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
>>>>
>>>> thanks S’ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss
>>>> what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice—a video
>>>> critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as “grievance
>>>> studies”–is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this
>>>> conversation!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not
>>>> so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions
>>>> Paolo Freire’s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of “critical social
>>>> justice” books, which he defines as “a codified way to indulge people into
>>>> self pity…”(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with
>>>> Freire’s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or,
>>>> as Lindsay’s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether
>>>> Lindsay’s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory
>>>> scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay’s position, an
>>>> example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alfredo
>>>>
>>>> *From: *<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Martin Packer
>>>> <mpacker@cantab.net> <mpacker@cantab.net>
>>>> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>>>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54
>>>> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Simangele,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How are you evaluating “level of mental functioning”? I would say that
>>>> is something with which psychology has had some difficulty.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Martin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss
>>>> matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my
>>>> partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with
>>>> the feeling that this also applies to myself” (Malinowski, 1930)*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela <
>>>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me
>>>> that at the heart of the “hypothesis” of the scientific question are the
>>>> “levels” of mental development which are associated to “skin colour”, with
>>>> little consideration of the historical oppression that created the
>>>> “backwards” economies that keep the third of the global population is what
>>>> appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more
>>>> about “what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black
>>>> skin or a white skin?” with the aim to find evidence for the difference.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what
>>>> is “scientific”, “rigorous scientific” and “scholarship” vs popular
>>>> narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking
>>>> over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view – if you are
>>>> Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay’s argument
>>>> on ideologies.
>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!XVhsb1Mgo_CNcYqFwO5P8Gx4jIUBN2xvQZGxIf0_Z5wBpcgKqrBljmSuZaS3rkoun94NBQ$
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.youtube.com*2Fwatch*3Fv*3D8N55gFjg4yg__*3B!!Mih3wA!V2LYI2I2g-qSP--eE84G38eGWBud9YwatVDWX1IvY27YgsR7kTdkqVGDNoLNCYNmswIv-Q*24*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C3980c805ddde48ffcda308d81ce02bb5*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291096420292271*26sdata*3DtYB881hofx2qlKcYHVaGFLwJWbzpFnRD8oRsTDV1y3U*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LWZEZpvXQ*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C793f465e2c064597a6ec08d81d52307d*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291586126490969&sdata=QtplwvBnPbeO8pEDjpsqP1r5VP8rKbh4hV6gmpYUbDE*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUqKioqKioqKioqKiolJSoqKioqKioqJSUqJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5Aaswj01g$>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> S’ma
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Simangele Mayisela
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10
>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Alfredo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for taking my attention of “level” which is crucial to
>>>> rendering the question “scientific”. But couple with level, which could be
>>>> quantifies as “high” and “low” or “superior” or “inferior” would account
>>>> for “difference”. As much as the question to be asked should be about the
>>>> “ideological basis” , I think the “hypothesis” is likely to be linked to
>>>> the “ideolody” as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the
>>>> scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms
>>>> of the ideas.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> S’ma
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>
>>> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and
>>> it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of
>>> rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the
>>> same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens.
>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XVhsb1Mgo_CNcYqFwO5P8Gx4jIUBN2xvQZGxIf0_Z5wBpcgKqrBljmSuZaS3rkqTBX6svA$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Q_q_DNhDoq1Xzty8Vz0Wuuux1nL8ULgJJJ2-vL13YzNjFRpGelADB-JXAxMUbAotW_H_mw$>
>>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://re-generatingchat.com__;!!Mih3wA!Q_q_DNhDoq1Xzty8Vz0Wuuux1nL8ULgJJJ2-vL13YzNjFRpGelADB-JXAxMUbAoOrejabA$>
>>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu.
>>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and
>> it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of
>> rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the
>> same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens.
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XVhsb1Mgo_CNcYqFwO5P8Gx4jIUBN2xvQZGxIf0_Z5wBpcgKqrBljmSuZaS3rkqTBX6svA$
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!V-mYNb3iJ4MF7rB0hejs8XZr-x47zmuly5qtpqPQPH_4pacZ-MyCn3K8BNOiCivThQbJOQ$>
>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://re-generatingchat.com__;!!Mih3wA!V-mYNb3iJ4MF7rB0hejs8XZr-x47zmuly5qtpqPQPH_4pacZ-MyCn3K8BNOiCiv56BzdDQ$>
>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu.
>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
>
> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it
> will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of
> rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the
> same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens.
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XVhsb1Mgo_CNcYqFwO5P8Gx4jIUBN2xvQZGxIf0_Z5wBpcgKqrBljmSuZaS3rkqTBX6svA$
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UtoKrfxi3sZ3NjF4DR5th-IZNVsQcMsq_kt9ksl6RVohAkfKsXZvVi4tIZ_i-TFSUyEwFw$>
> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://re-generatingchat.com__;!!Mih3wA!UtoKrfxi3sZ3NjF4DR5th-IZNVsQcMsq_kt9ksl6RVohAkfKsXZvVi4tIZ_i-TFWAlRbUw$>
> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu.
> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu.
>
>
>
>
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